1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 04 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 432       Contents:( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS! Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA ! Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA # CETS2000 - DECUS Headquarters Hotel ' Re: CETS2000 - DECUS Headquarters Hotel " Re: DECamds - where are the nodes?% find anyone anywhere in the USA  3417   Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS  Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS  Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS Re: HTML Convertor Re: HTML Convertor Re: Incremental backup question  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement? 0 Re: No Relay patch for MX 4.2 on Vax VMS 5.5-2 ?( Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copy, Re: Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copy, Re: Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copy) Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY ) Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY ) Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality P Re: Re Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: CP Re: Re Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: C& Re: Telnet in a single line command...& Re: Telnet in a single line command... The Linux Paradigm UCX 4.1 to 4.2 upgrade query) Re: VAX 4000/100 SCSI Expansion with Qbus ) Re: VAX 4000/100 SCSI Expansion with Qbus # Re: Versions of DSN - which is best  Re: Web Base Telnet client Re: Web Base Telnet client  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 13:24 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS , Message-ID: <3AUG200013240627@gerg.tamu.edu>  ) "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian> writes... J }>Applied Synergy, Inc. is pleased to announce the ASI PDF Viewer V1.0 for
 }>OpenVMS! }....  }>Java is NOT required.  } 4 }If this latter is true, why is an Alpha required??? }-- B }Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com  ? I'm not them, but my guess would be that they don't have a VAX.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:15:35 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <009EE0E6.22FF5571@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <4.3.2.7.2.20000803113544.0331c0b8@pop.clsp.uswest.net>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: + >At 11:09 AM 8/3/2000, Chris Scheers wrote:  >>nic wrote: >> > {...snip...}  >>  >>How many copies would you buy? > M >Buy?  None.  There's an acceptable (albeit, slower) viewer already available 
 >for free.  F ... and with that reasoning, we should all be using CMU for TCP/IP and not TCPware or Multinet?  ;)  A >  OK, I take it back; maybe $10 per seat or something like that.   D Something not too pricey, I believe, would be the general consensus?  J >Let's face it: reading PDF files on VMS is something people want to do onJ >occasion, but most people end up reading them on M$ stuff, because that's >where the mail goes to...  E Not here it won't!  We don't need TCPware or Multinet or CMU for that + matter as there is TCP/IP on the M$ stuff.      --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:33:25 -0500 (CDT) & From: Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org>* Subject: Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA- Message-ID: <01JSJCHR2WUS001V90@SEMATECH.Org>    "John E. Malmberg" wrote...    [snip]  L >Windows NT in my case was requiring a valid guest account to be configured.K >For some reason it was connecting as guest first, before logging in as the M >user.  If you do not have a guest account configured in your SYSUAF file, it  >would fail.  K I have a guest account.  I even set it up with /NOPASSWORD just to see, and 0 set "guest ok = yes", but I still can't connect.   [snip]  J >Also SAMBA-VMS requires that the logical name TMP in the process table beL >defined to point to a directory that the any account will have write accessK >to.  The SAMBA startup files should be doing this already, but if you have M >tightened up security on that directory, then the login of the guest account 
 >may fail.  J I can't find any reference to a logical called TMP in any of the SAMBA comK files.  But I did find SAMBA_TMPDIR, so I made sure it was world writeable. > It didn't make any difference.  Should I define TMP somewhere?   [snip]  K >You can try enabling a higher debug level for the server process to see if ( >it will give you some more information.  K I've never used SAMBA at all before, so I don't know what a "good" value is L for the debug level.  I've tried it at 10, and I've got a lot of information@ that I don't know how to interpret.  It seems that it can't findI "/dev/null", which isn't surprising.  I don't know how to give it what it  wants.   Thanks,  Drew   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 17:47 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) * Subject: Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA, Message-ID: <3AUG200017475518@gerg.tamu.edu>  * Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org> writes... }"John E. Malmberg" wrote...K }>Also SAMBA-VMS requires that the logical name TMP in the process table be M }>defined to point to a directory that the any account will have write access L }>to.  The SAMBA startup files should be doing this already, but if you haveN }>tightened up security on that directory, then the login of the guest account }>may fail.  } K }I can't find any reference to a logical called TMP in any of the SAMBA com L }files.  But I did find SAMBA_TMPDIR, so I made sure it was world writeable.? }It didn't make any difference.  Should I define TMP somewhere?  }Drew   6 My SMBD_STARTUP.COM file includes the following stuff: $! $! Setup tmpdir  $!# $ tmpdir = f$trnlnm("SAMBA_TMPDIR") 0 $ define TMP 'tmpdir'           ! up to 1.9.16p2F $ define TMPDIR 'tmpdir'        ! from 1.9.16p3 on (Andrew told me...)  F If this isn't in yours, you may want to put it there (and you may want to look into why it isn't).    --- Carl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:51:26 -04007 From: "Information CETS2000" <Information@CETS2000.com> , Subject: CETS2000 - DECUS Headquarters Hotel2 Message-ID: <8mcbeo$ebo$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>  J The Westin Bonaventure is the DECUS headquarters hotel at CETS2000.  It isF also where the Monday night kickoff roadmap session will be.  Also the# Monday night welcoming reception...      --     Jeff Killeen - www.Killeen.cc E =====================================================================    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:54:39 -04007 From: "Information CETS2000" <Information@CETS2000.com> 0 Subject: Re: CETS2000 - DECUS Headquarters Hotel2 Message-ID: <8md0oh$ufu$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>  ; Below is a list of the conference hotels from which you may 4 make your choice when you are completing the on-line7 registration process. Please register early, as premium : hotel space is limited and on a "first-come, first-served" basis.   Westin Bonaventure ($172.00 single/$187.00 double)  404 South Figueroa St. Los Angeles, CA  90071   Regal Biltmore ($179.00 single/$199.00 double)  506 South Grand Ave. Los Angeles, CA  90071  % Omni (formerly the Inter-Continental)  ($175.00 single/double)  251 South Olive St.  Los Angeles, CA  90012   Wyndham Checkers ($170.00 single/double)  535 South Grand Ave. Los Angeles, CA  90071   Wilshire Grand ($152.00 single/$162.00 double)  930 Wilshire Blvd. Los Angeles, CA  90017  
 Hyatt Regency  ($185.00 single/double)  711 South Hope St. Los Angeles, CA  90017   LA Marriott  ($150.00 king/double)  333 South Figueroa St. Los Angeles, CA  90071  	 New Otani  ($155.00 single/double)  120 South Los Angeles St.  Los Angeles, CA  90012  # Holiday Inn Los Angeles City Center  ($150.00 single/double)  1020 South Figueroa St.  Los Angeles, CA  90015    ! Ground Transportation Information   6 Taxi service from the local airports to the conference9 hotels is easily available and can cost anywhere from $24 : to $35.  Super Shuttle service is also available either at; the airport or at the hotels at significant savings and can 8 range from $12 to $20.  Upon arrival into one of the Los8 Angeles airports, proceed to Ground Transportation where+ you can get either taxi or shuttle service.   1 Shuttle service between conference hotels and the 9 Convention Center, as well as to and from all conference- 7 related activities, will be provided daily from Sunday,  October 1 to Friday, October 6.   8 For those departing on Friday to LAX from the Convention; Center, please bring your luggage to the Convention Center. : Shuttles will be running from the convention center to the airport as needed.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:36:49 GMT 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> + Subject: Re: DECamds - where are the nodes? 2 Message-ID: <3989D7C2.111BD3BE@clarityconnect.com>  G What network device have you pointed AMDS at, see AMDS$LOGICALS.COM for B defining AMDS$DEVICE.  Remember that AMDS can only use one networkE interface, thus if you have multiple ones you need to tell AMDS which F one to use. Have you verified that all the network widgets between the: systems are setup to allow the AMDS protocol between them?   "Dr. Otto Titze" wrote:  > I > For a first test I installed DECamds on a few nodes of the cluster e.g. - > 1. AXP 2100 5/250       VMS 7.2-1, AMDS 7.2 + > 2. AXP 2100 5/250       VMS 6.2, AMDS 7.1 # > 3. AXP 4100     VMS 6.2, AMDS 7.1  > H > When running AVAIL on node 1 or 3 I always see only the information of& > that particular node. I had modified4 > amds$driver_access.dat and amds$console_access.dat > by adding e.g.! > 1.2\1DECAMDS\W          ;Node 3 ! > 1.21\1DECAMDS\W         ;Node 1 ! > 1.5\1DECAMDS\W          ;Node 2  > before starting AMDS.  > < > Why do I see the other ones? E.g. when runnung on node 3 I( > see in the system overview window only6 > DECAMDS(1)              ;I still kept the group name >    NODE 1 @ > and respectively. I read the users guide thoroughly but didn't1 > find a hint or I misunderstood the whole setup.  >  > Any ideas? > 	 > Regards  > Otto > - > PS: On Node 2 I encountered another problem  > @amds$startup STOP > gave an error message F > "Thew data collector has receive multiple packet transmission errorsC > from the datalink. Check your system for a bad LAN adapter or for  > line disconnect"> > This I don't understand  because it is one of our production2 > systems running in the cluster without problems. > . >  -------------------------------------------. > | Dr. Otto Titze, Kernphysik TUD           |. > | Schlossgartenstr. 9, D-64289 Darmstadt   |. > | titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de                |. > | Tel: +49(6151)16-2916,FAX:16-4321        |. >  -------------------------------------------   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:59:46 GMT   From: euzdvs@PEOPLESEARCH-4U.COM. Subject: find anyone anywhere in the USA  34174 Message-ID: <Ciji5.13506$wT6.137780@news.uswest.net>  b We can get you address, phone, SSN anything you want to know we can get and fast under 30 minutes.     http://www.americandatabank.com 1 szhznejfojbveowhdzthgfrfufbdhebtszkhsniiiprpptnjv    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:15:04 GMT 2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>) Subject: Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <shli5.543$mO3.107499@typhoon.aracnet.com>  * Barry Treahy, Jr. <Treahy@mmaz.com> wrote:N > Firewire drive support would be enough reason for me...  What about as a SCSI > interface for clustering?  Certainly faster than Ethernet, DSSI, CSI...   L Hmm, hadn't considered it as a cluster interface, and come to think of it ifI I remember correctly some thought has been given to that in it's design.  L Not sure though, it's been almost a year since I looked into Firewire.  That could be a good use for it.   I The reason I don't view drive support as that worthwhile is that it is my J understanding that Firewire drives are currently simply EIDE drives with a5 EIDE-to-Firewire converter.  That adds to their cost.    				Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:52:46 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> ) Subject: Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS ( Message-ID: <3989F7BE.97703BC6@mmaz.com>   "Zane H. Healy" wrote:  K > The reason I don't view drive support as that worthwhile is that it is my L > understanding that Firewire drives are currently simply EIDE drives with a7 > EIDE-to-Firewire converter.  That adds to their cost.   R No argument from me here, but we pay a premium for SCSI drives, is that really anyK different?  With FW, atleast we're not as limited to the number of units on P SCSI-3, or as with IDE, and we're not getting hammered for the cost of fiber for highspeed...   Barry    --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 23:10:59 GMT 3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) ) Subject: Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <8mcu63$ioc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  F In article <8maqa9$vhk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, mccrobie@my-deja.com writes:B >I've heard very faint rumors that someone either inside Compaq orA >outside may have had interest in developing Firewire drivers for ? >OpenVMS.  If you're reading this, I'd appreciate a non-binding  >confirmation. > F >Has anyone heard of Firewire support in any OpenVMS futures seminars? > A >I think it might be interesting to develop a Firewire driver for H >OpenVMS.  Of course, Serial Bus Protocol-2 is a necessary part as would@ >be some type of isochronous application library...  It might be@ >interesting to support digital camcorders/cameras, etc. also... > B >Has anyone given Firewire support for OpenVMS more than a passing	 >thought?   O There are FireWire to SCSI converters around (I saw them at the MacWorld expo). = It would be interesting to see whether they work under VMS...    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -----------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +------------ http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/english/menue.html -----------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:36:20 -0400 - From: Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>  Subject: Re: HTML Convertor 0 Message-ID: <3989C9B4.D358F5FF@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>   Raji Arulambalam wrote: N > Does anyone know of a simple DCL command file that will convert a given textM > file into a basic html  page ready for the web. No fancy tags are required, ; > I have a large number of text files that need converting.   N If no fancy markup is required, what is wrong with simply serving the original. text file?  They're already ready for the web.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:47:10 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: HTML Convertor 0 Message-ID: <009EE0F2.EE77E631@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <3989C9B4.D358F5FF@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>, Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> writes: >Raji Arulambalam wrote:O >> Does anyone know of a simple DCL command file that will convert a given text2N >> file into a basic html  page ready for the web. No fancy tags are required,< >> I have a large number of text files that need converting. >oO >If no fancy markup is required, what is wrong with simply serving the originalt/ >text file?  They're already ready for the web.e  ( Enough already!  Give him what he wants!  	 $ PIPE (-eM WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "<HTML><BODY bgcolor=""#FFFFFF"" TEXT=""#000000""><PRE>" ; -r
 TYPE 'P1' ; -i4 WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "</PRE><FONT COLOR=""#AA0000"">"+ -> "HTML generator for the brain-dead!</FONT></BODY></HTML>") | -" COPY SYS$PIPE 'F$parse(".HTML",P1) $EXITe   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:25:57 -0400r2 From: Jean-Marc Beaudoin <jmbeaudoin@vipnet.qc.ca>( Subject: Re: Incremental backup question, Message-ID: <3989B935.FC88DE75@vipnet.qc.ca>  $ Thank You for thos informations.....   Regards,   Jean-Marc Beaudoin wrote:e   > Good day,h >sJ > Last time I have done this it was in the early 90's. Can someone refresh- > my memory on how to do incremental backups?k >e > Is the following good? >e > 1st backup of the week > : > backup /image /record /ignore=(interlock,nobackup) disk: > tape:week2.sav/save_setl > % > Each following days of the week....t > @ > backup /image /since=backup /ignore=(interlock,nobackup) disk: > tape:day9.sav/save_set >09 >     Replace the 9 by the day of the week (ie: 1,2,3...)d >c > When restoring...... >:' > a.    restore the image backup (week).= > b.    Sequentially restore each tapes starting from numer 1C >. > Does that sounds OK? > 	 > Thanks,0 >S > -- > Jean-Marc Beaudoin, T.P. > V.I.P. ExcelNet Inc. > jmbeaudoin@vipnet.qc.caS > http://www.vipnet.qc.ca    -- Jean-Marc Beaudoin, T.P. V.I.P. ExcelNet Inc. jmbeaudoin@vipnet.qc.ca- http://www.vipnet.qc.ca-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:55:28 -0400l  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?4 Message-ID: <C2256930.006185F5.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  * TSM still works as long as you have a VAX.        . rick-dyson@uiowa.edu on 08/03/2000 12:48:34 PM   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comO cc:u% Subject:  Is there a TSM replacement?y        F I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatE I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product.'  G I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU's04 CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product.  E I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-based D terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :)  F Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should be using is called?    Regards, Rick --H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:33:57 -0400D' From: David Beatty <dabeat@wnt.sas.com>o( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?2 Message-ID: <vayJOQahT8yMndXPjZU6YGt3zMQc@4ax.com>  B I know there is a product on that will manage the terminal serversE from a PC, but I can't remeber what it's called.  It might even be on ; the Pathworks 32 CD.  I know it's a Digital/Compaq product.X   David R. BeattyO  3 On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:48:34 GMT, "Richard L. Dyson"u <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote:r  G >I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatSF >I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product. >wH >I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU's5 >CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product.c >gF >I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-basedE >terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :)a >aG >Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should  >be using is called? >t	 >Regards,o >Rick    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:17:16 -0400s# From: Tom Brand <Tom.Brand@bmc.org>r( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?2 Message-ID: <p04320402b5af66c8e9af@[155.41.21.61]>  A There is a freeware TSM replacement available at some of the VMS r freeware sites.l  E IIRC, the name is TSCON (Terminal Server Connection Utility (talk to  E DECservers) ).  I used the product VERY successfully for a number of A. years, until we got rid of LAT on our network.  8 	http://www2.wku.edu/www/fileserv/fileserv-software.html  8 	http://www2.wku.edu/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?TSCON    * At 13:33 -0400 8/3/00, David Beatty wrote:C >I know there is a product on that will manage the terminal serverssF >from a PC, but I can't remeber what it's called.  It might even be on< >the Pathworks 32 CD.  I know it's a Digital/Compaq product. >o >David R. Beatty >e4 >On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:48:34 GMT, "Richard L. Dyson" ><rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote: > H >>I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatG >>I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product.c >>I >>I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU'sd6 >>CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product. >>G >>I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-basednF >>terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :) >>H >>Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should >>be using is called?o >>
 >>Regards, >>Rick   --    E +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  Thomas Brand System Administrator Boston Medical Centero Email:	Tom.Brand@bmc.org Phone:	(617) 638-8205M   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:06:56 -0400e' From: David Beatty <dabeat@wnt.sas.com> ( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?2 Message-ID: <o7SJOVWXlk8pSOfVIhpYdTmEzoWo@4ax.com>  ( I found it; it's clearVISN.  Look within+ http://www.networks.digital.com to find it.T  E On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:33:57 -0400, David Beatty <dabeat@wnt.sas.com>s wrote:   > C >I know there is a product on that will manage the terminal serverssF >from a PC, but I can't remeber what it's called.  It might even be on< >the Pathworks 32 CD.  I know it's a Digital/Compaq product. >E >David R. Beatty >:4 >On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:48:34 GMT, "Richard L. Dyson" ><rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote: > H >>I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatG >>I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product.e >>I >>I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU'sc6 >>CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product. >>G >>I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-based F >>terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :) >>H >>Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should >>be using is called?> >>
 >>Regards, >>Rick   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 19:39:04 GMT ) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)o( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?' Message-ID: <8mchoo$sae$1@joe.rice.edu>m  . Richard L. Dyson (rick-dyson@uiowa.edu) wrote:H : I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatG : I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product.  :.I : I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU's06 : CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product. :0G : I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-basedoF : terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :) :3H : Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should : be using is called?o  - TSM is available as an unsupported product...$   From:n  1   http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/servers/tsm/9C   Compaq.com - Access Servers - Terminal Server Manager for OpenVMSt  G  "Important Note: TSM has been discontinued as a salable product and is0H   unsupported. TSM is offered here as a convenience to customers who areE   familiar with it and who may be upgrading their system environmentssE   from VAX to Alpha systems. Other customers should use Access ServeroG   Manager (ASM). The license pak has been updated to allow unrestrictedi   usage.  "   TSM V2.1 Downloadable Software 1  F   readme.txt Text file containing guidelines for TSM V2.1 InstallationE   tsm_pak.com File to register and load a License Management Facilityx2   (LMF) Product Authorzation Key (PAK) for TSM..."    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:42:37 +01001 From: "NewsReader" <NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com> ( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?4 Message-ID: <PHli5.32$0n4.11134@news.enterprise.net>  F There is a WindowsNT replacement; I forget the name. I think it in the OpenVMS kit.  : "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote in message# news:39895C12.53D3FCC0@uiowa.edu....H > I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatG > I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product.o >dI > I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU'sE6 > CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product. >cG > I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-basedeF > terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :) >eH > Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should > be using is called?I >s
 > Regards, > Rick > --J > Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduJ >  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/J > | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879J > | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17538 > | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy/ >  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479N   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:51:55 GMT 2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?6 Message-ID: <%Pli5.544$mO3.107936@typhoon.aracnet.com>  * Jerry Leslie <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote:/ > TSM is available as an unsupported product...d  I Is there a list of such products anywhere?  There seem to be several such C things hidden around and available, IF you know where to find them.$   			ZaneP   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 22:56:09 GMTi) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)d( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?' Message-ID: <8mcta9$8jk$1@joe.rice.edu>s  0 NewsReader (NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com) wrote:H : There is a WindowsNT replacement; I forget the name. I think it in the : OpenVMS kit.    G  http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/hubs/servers/software/servr-mn.htmls<  Access Server Manager for Windows NT (Intel) and Windows 95    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:48:18 -0500	7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>d( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?- Message-ID: <398A12D2.F07B4C1D@earthlink.net>c   Jerry Leslie wrote:/ > 2 > NewsReader (NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com) wrote:J > : There is a WindowsNT replacement; I forget the name. I think it in the > : OpenVMS kit. > I >  http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/hubs/servers/software/servr-mn.htmle> >  Access Server Manager for Windows NT (Intel) and Windows 95   Now for the killer question:  E How does one use either clearVISN or ASM from within an openVMS batcho job like you can with TSM?  D Guess the folks that need to will be keeping TSM around for a while, huh?   -- r David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:13:46 -0700u2 From: Todd Wipke <wipke@nospam.chemistry.ucsc.edu>9 Subject: Re: No Relay patch for MX 4.2 on Vax VMS 5.5-2 ?I4 Message-ID: <3989E08A.484@nospam.chemistry.ucsc.edu>  D For any vax users out there that need the no relay patch for MX 4.2,A here are the things I had to change from the install instructionss  F So here are some of the problems I found that you might want to fix in the install instructions, etc.  D 1. One has to Bliss compile netlibsrcdef.r32 to get .l32 and the mms!    file doesn't do it in [netlib]E' 2. netlibdef.h has to be in sys$libraryr4 3. XSMTP_OUT gives file not found Sys$library:PSILIB- 4. The SERVER.OPT file in [smtp] must include1 SYS$SHARE:VAXCRTL.EXE/shareTF 5. The CC/VAXC must be changed to CC, that switch is not recognized by my&    C compiler and the default is VAXC.H 6. ALIAS must be removed from LOAD_RELAY.C everywhere, not recognized by    Bliss 4.7 on vax.E 7. NETLIB symbols in call in LOAD_RELAY.C must be put in variables asIE    unsigned ints and use &variable in the call instead of the symbol.t;    There are two such symbols in the call to netlib_socket: #     int af_inet = NETLIB_K_AF_INET;?+     .... netlib_socket(...., &af_inet,....)eB 8. I think the smtp_server machine must in RELAY.DAT enable itselfE    or localhost, because when I enabled one other machine and disablerC    0.0.0.0 with mask 0.0.0.0, nothing was accepted whatsoever, evenlH    mail directed to the very machine itself.  This is not clear from theD    brief instructions in the readme file.  When I enabled the subnetF    I am on, then all good mail came through.  It would be nice to knowA    just what the minimum RELAY.DAT file is to receive good honesta non-relayed9    mail.  C My system: Vax VMS 5.5-1, Bliss 4.7, Netlib 2.0I, MX 4.2, Vax C 3.1r! Multinet 3.1 Rev A, Vax 4000-500.   A Many thanks to Hunter Goatley for his help in solving some of the ; problems.  Incidentally, the patch does work as advertised.d -Todd Wipkem= Location of patch ftp.wku.edu, and Bliss-32 + PAK there also.S     Vance Haemmerle wrote: >  > Todd Wipke wrote:i > > C > > Please let me know if you have gotten the subject patch runningoC > > on vax VMS, esp. if on 5.5-2.  I am getting an access violationi( > > when Load_relay calls netlib_socket. > > -Todd Wipkei1 > >  remove "nospam" from my email address pleasen > > TIAi > E >    I got this running on VMS 7.1.  I had the same access violation.eB > Since the C program is compiled with VAXC, when I added the line >  > SYS$SHARE:VAXCRTL.EXE/SHAREh > 8 > to the SERVER.OPT file the access violation went away. >  > --N > Vance Haemmerle                         Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US > Tucson, AZN > http://condor.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/   NSI-SPAN/HEPNET 47540::TOYVAX::VANCE   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:49:40 -0700n$ From: sroyer <steve.royer@ssq.qc.ca>1 Subject: Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copy 9 Message-ID: <29e78fc3.583f653b@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>p  3 I tried to copy a SAS binaries file from VMS to NT.-  @ The original file is : 53 553 040 TRANFILE.TXT;1 (104596 blocks)  / When I use FTP to transfer my file on my NT boxH" I got this file (binary tranfert):@ 00-08-03  13:20    53 553 040    tranfile.ftp (same size as vms)  6 When I use COPY to transfer my file on my NT box using Pathworks I got this files :  / copy \\ssq5\share\tranfile.txt tranfile.copystd 1 00-08-03  13:27    56 264 136    tranfile.copystdh  2 copy \\ssq5\share\tranfile.txt tranfile.copybin /B1 00-08-03  13:30    54 891 866    tranfile.copybine  4 copy \\ssq5\share\tranfile.txt tranfile.copyascii /A3 00-08-03  13:35    54 891 866    tranfile.copyascii7  6 copy \\ssq5\share\tranfile.txt tranfile.copybin2 /B /V2 00-08-03  13:40    54 891 866    tranfile.copybin2  5 My FTP transfer work great but for the Pathworks copy</ make me cast doubt on the fonctionalty of PWRK.w   Is it because it's a SAS file ?   Is it because it's a huge file ?2 Is it because PWRK have a bug and a patch fix it ?  
 Any clue ?  	 Thank Youl -Steve      ; ----------------------------------------------------------->  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.  Up to 100 minutes free!s http://www.keen.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:15:27 -0700r$ From: sroyer <steve.royer@ssq.qc.ca>5 Subject: Re: Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copy>9 Message-ID: <00d47540.5ef90b62@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>E  # Forgot : Pathworks 6.0B / VMS 7.1-2N    ; -----------------------------------------------------------N  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.  Up to 100 minutes free!n http://www.keen.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:57:33 -0700-$ From: sroyer <steve.royer@ssq.qc.ca>5 Subject: Re: Pathworks : checksum mismatch after copyc9 Message-ID: <0f9f4b6e.69f49183@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>   : I got the answer... Before copying any SAS file's, specify5 cc=none on the creation of the SAS file.  This option 5 suppress carriage control.  Then we can copy the filen on NT successfuly.   ---e   XPORT engine Example 2:w     libname sasdata '[username]';   6   libname gone xport '[username]tranfile.dat' cc=none;      proc copy in=sasdata out=gone;     run;    ; -----------------------------------------------------------y  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.r Up to 100 minutes free!s http://www.keen.coma   ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:19:57 GMT/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>h2 Subject: Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY( Message-ID: <39897F8D.4C54DF9@uiowa.edu>  1 Another FYI to help map out the problem (maybe?):n  : 	UCX v4.1 ECO 10 on Alpha 2100/OpenVMS v6.2 with a 10 Mb/sD ethernet card to a 400 MHz PII/Win95b with 100 Mb/s ethernet through& a Cisco Switch (high end modular one).  A 	I have tried a couple times with *AND* without TCP Delay Enabled F (i.e., UCX Set Protocol TCP /Delay & UCX Set Protocol TCP /NoDelay). IE moved a 300, 452 kB file from the OpenVMS fileshare to the PC (PC was1H "driving") and I get repeatedly a transfer time of 440 seconds. That is,D it doesn't matter whether the delay is on or off in this experiment.   Rick -- oH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479a   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 17:44 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)n2 Subject: Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY, Message-ID: <3AUG200017445345@gerg.tamu.edu>  3 "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> writes...o2 }Another FYI to help map out the problem (maybe?): } ; }	UCX v4.1 ECO 10 on Alpha 2100/OpenVMS v6.2 with a 10 Mb/stE }ethernet card to a 400 MHz PII/Win95b with 100 Mb/s ethernet throught' }a Cisco Switch (high end modular one).  } B }	I have tried a couple times with *AND* without TCP Delay EnabledG }(i.e., UCX Set Protocol TCP /Delay & UCX Set Protocol TCP /NoDelay). IhF }moved a 300, 452 kB file from the OpenVMS fileshare to the PC (PC wasI }"driving") and I get repeatedly a transfer time of 440 seconds. That is,UE }it doesn't matter whether the delay is on or off in this experiment.  }  }Rickr  J Realistically, the maximum sustainable throughput for 10 Mbit/sec ethernetM is only a bit over 1MByte/second. It should therefore be possible to transferOF a 300MByte file in, at best, a bit under 300 seconds if the network is otherwise not in use.h  K The time you are seeing is perhaps 70% of the best time you could hope for.lH From the point of view of your Alpha, the ethernet wouldn't happen to be@ operating with some 20% or more load most of the time, would it?  L In any case, being able to get 70% of the maximum throughput for 440 seconds is not very bad.  G You may be able to squeeze a few more seconds out of the time here with K newer verions of UCX and possibly Pathworks, but the biggest speed-up would 4 come from an upgrade to a 100Mbit/sec ethernet card.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:41:59 GMT7+ From: Jonas Lindholm <jlindholm@nyc.rr.com>g2 Subject: Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY* Message-ID: <398A1158.D72E92A0@nyc.rr.com>  ? Could be a problem with full/half duplex for the ethernet port.S9 Do a MCR LANCP SHOW DEVICE EWA/CHAR and one with /COUNTERe- replace EWA with the name of your controller.   K There should be no CRC or other errors for the port. I've seen problem with 3 auto detection of ethernet speed and duplex betweenwC OVMS boxes and CISCO switches. They don't seems to agree on corrects speed/duplex :-(   /Jonas Lindholm-   "Richard L. Dyson" wrote:t  3 > Another FYI to help map out the problem (maybe?):t >iC >         UCX v4.1 ECO 10 on Alpha 2100/OpenVMS v6.2 with a 10 Mb/siF > ethernet card to a 400 MHz PII/Win95b with 100 Mb/s ethernet through( > a Cisco Switch (high end modular one). >gJ >         I have tried a couple times with *AND* without TCP Delay EnabledH > (i.e., UCX Set Protocol TCP /Delay & UCX Set Protocol TCP /NoDelay). IG > moved a 300, 452 kB file from the OpenVMS fileshare to the PC (PC was J > "driving") and I get repeatedly a transfer time of 440 seconds. That is,F > it doesn't matter whether the delay is on or off in this experiment. >  > Rick > --J > Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduJ >  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/J > | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879J > | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17538 > | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy/ >  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479g   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:48:46 -0400 * From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398923DE.76C3DAD3@tsoft-inc.com>s   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Bill Todd wrote: > >tD > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message+ > > news:39879E0D.3B7A5ED3@earthlink.net...  > [snip]" > > > It's all in the marketing... > >IO > > If that were true, commodities would not exist.  Perhaps your perception isu > > stuck in the 1950s.' > G > I don't have time this a.m. for a long discussion, but I couldn't letC > this one by... > F > If that's true, then how do you explain the current trends (key word  > there) in consumer purchasing? > H > Marketing has convinced the masses that they need everything from cell> > phones per person to cars with internet capabilities (recent > announcement by Ford).  N Nah, can't let that one get by.  When cell phones first appeared, not everyoneP went out and bought one.  Some did, but not nearly as many as are in use today. P What people did, on an individual basis, was at some time decide that they had aN need for a product that they already knew about, and at first didn't feel thatO they needed.  Some part of this is also affected in the decreasing prices.  So,-L marketing may have educated them to the possibilities, but individuals chose$ when and if they needed the product.  M As for how this pertains to VMS, many people in IT today do not know what VMSDN can do.  Marketing can educate them about the capabilities of VMS.  Users willP still make individual decisions about whether they need VMS.  The problem now isL that many users cannot make that decision because they don't know about VMS.  I > If people bought only what they need, there would no Wal-Marts, Circuit.B > City stores, Best Buy stores, CompUsa, Computer Renaissance, ...  M People do buy what they perceive they need, and no more.  It's the perception)H that varies.  Don't know why we don't need stores.  What does that mean?  J > Yes, my friend, it _IS_ all in the marketing! First you create a need inJ > the market's mind, then present your product as the answer to that need.@ > Check with your local community college's business department,I > instructor (or dean) of advertising and/or marketing and ask him/her ifu > that's not how its done.  9 Not all consumers are as dumb as you make them out to be.d  P Also, I'd think that VMS should sell because it is the best product for the job,M not because you convinced someone that they needed VMS, regardless of whether  they do or not.u  M When you discuss marketing, are you talking about sellers educating consumers - about a product, or the actions of a con man?a   Dave   -- .4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:43:40 -0700c) From: Rick Cadruvi <rick@rick.rdperf.com>- Subject: Re: Quality/ Message-ID: <398930BC.28A1D3F3@rick.rdperf.com>p  > David Froble's position on this demostrates technical people'sA disdain for, mistrust of, and sometimes lack of understanding of 5C marketing.  Bill Gate's success has little to do with his technical D genius and more to do with his ability to combine technical insight ! with business sense and forsight.   ? Rarely does the best technology win.  Usually barely acceptable 
 technology- wins with GREAT marketing and business sense.r  E I have produced technically good software products that succeeded and  some eA that didn't.  Many times the ones that didn't succeed were betteri technically F and more useful/needed.  However, the difference in success has always been= the business, sales, and marketing abilities of the companiess selling/marketing C the products as well as my own failure to understand that aspect of 	 business./D Doing what customers want, even when it is the wrong solution from a	 technical / perspective, is the RIGHT business thing to do.   C Digital's failure in business and the marketplace demonstrates this| better@ than most examples I can think of.  When the Emerald project was
 cancelled,C it demonstrated Digital's failure from a business sense viewpoint. 5 Truly G "Open" VMS was a great idea with a tremendous possiblity at that point. H The failure to capitalize on that potential is evident.  The failure to H effectively market VMS today when there are not other reliable business ) platforms available demonstrates it also.f  G Having said this, I do have to agree with the notion that there MUST beuC a market/need before a product can be successful.  Market/need does-F NOT guarantee success, but lack thereof guarantees failure.  SometimesB marketing can "educate" people about a need and therefore create a marketH that doesn't currently exist.  I'm sure many things we take for granted @ today were considered unnecessary before or when they were first "introduced" to the marketplace.M   Just my opinions,w   David A Froble wrote:/ >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >A > > Bill Todd wrote: > > >oF > > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message- > > > news:39879E0D.3B7A5ED3@earthlink.net...-
 > > [snip]$ > > > > It's all in the marketing... > > >JQ > > > If that were true, commodities would not exist.  Perhaps your perception is? > > > stuck in the 1950s.B > >eI > > I don't have time this a.m. for a long discussion, but I couldn't leto > > this one by... > >hH > > If that's true, then how do you explain the current trends (key word" > > there) in consumer purchasing? > >dJ > > Marketing has convinced the masses that they need everything from cell@ > > phones per person to cars with internet capabilities (recent > > announcement by Ford). > P > Nah, can't let that one get by.  When cell phones first appeared, not everyoneQ > went out and bought one.  Some did, but not nearly as many as are in use today.iR > What people did, on an individual basis, was at some time decide that they had aP > need for a product that they already knew about, and at first didn't feel thatQ > they needed.  Some part of this is also affected in the decreasing prices.  So,iN > marketing may have educated them to the possibilities, but individuals chose& > when and if they needed the product. > O > As for how this pertains to VMS, many people in IT today do not know what VMSfP > can do.  Marketing can educate them about the capabilities of VMS.  Users willR > still make individual decisions about whether they need VMS.  The problem now isN > that many users cannot make that decision because they don't know about VMS. > K > > If people bought only what they need, there would no Wal-Marts, CircuitiD > > City stores, Best Buy stores, CompUsa, Computer Renaissance, ... > O > People do buy what they perceive they need, and no more.  It's the perceptionmJ > that varies.  Don't know why we don't need stores.  What does that mean? > L > > Yes, my friend, it _IS_ all in the marketing! First you create a need inL > > the market's mind, then present your product as the answer to that need.B > > Check with your local community college's business department,K > > instructor (or dean) of advertising and/or marketing and ask him/her if  > > that's not how its done. > ; > Not all consumers are as dumb as you make them out to be., > R > Also, I'd think that VMS should sell because it is the best product for the job,O > not because you convinced someone that they needed VMS, regardless of whether0 > they do or not.  > O > When you discuss marketing, are you talking about sellers educating consumers / > about a product, or the actions of a con man?m >  > Dave >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com8 > T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:11:15 -0500o7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>c Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <3989FC13.DAF4F7B4@earthlink.net>n  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: [total snippage]    WTF are you talking about ???!!!     -- i David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:09:46 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>u Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <3989FBBA.E9EC40BA@earthlink.net>r   David Mathog wrote:VM > Not to me.  Your argument is bogus when it comes to the utility of existingRC > code - just because a program is written in a language you deteste  - Excuse me? Who said I detest the UN*X shells?a  A I find UN*X labor intensive and feature impoverished, but I don't * "detest" it (not as much as I detest NT!).   > (which is-L > basically what we're talking about here even though these are "only" shell7 > scripts) doesn't mean that the program is not useful.t   Never said that, either.  G However, I might conter that just as you wnat me to learn shell scriptsfH because that's what UN*X uses, I could easily counter that those who run@ their stuff on VMS should learn DCL, since that's what VMS uses.   See? It's a two way street!e   >  Nor should it mean5K > that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS youyI > can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and csh\L > should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.( > And as such, they should be supported.  5 So go ahead and port {ksh, sh, bash, csh} to OpenVMS!l   -- i David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:42:39 -0500t7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>a Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398A036F.16D2719B@earthlink.net>l   Bill Todd wrote: [snip] > Now, that's a tough one.   Here's a tougher one:   E A prominent university does a study of the role played by advertising-D and marketing on the corporate decision making process. Those polled" tell the university people, quote:  G "We find that advertising and marketing have little or no impact in our H decision making processes. In fact, we find advertising and marketing toG be so ineffectual, that we ourselves spend millions - if not billions - > every year hawking our goods and services to our {partners and distributors|end users}."   F Now, pardon my stupidity, but I find more than a little incongruity in that statement.   F So, here's the toughie: How do you propose to reconcile such a glaring
 disparity?   -- - David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:55:21 -0500.7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>c Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398A0669.6FA69563@earthlink.net>h   Jordan Henderson wrote:n > + > In article <39899D8E.B09A9A7@uk.sun.com>,2F > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: > >nC > >You attitude seems to be roughly equivalent to a patient waiting C > >for a heart transplant who turns down a viable heart because theu > >donor had athletes foot.e > >eG > >This is exactly the attitude that makes people observing the OpenVMS-G > >market from the outside draw the obvious conclusion that its doomed.a > >  >  > I couldn't agree more. > D > The insular, NIH attitude of the OpenVMS user community is perhaps4 > the biggest obstacle to OpenVMS market acceptance.    I think that may be a bit harsh.  F Having experience with both DCL and the shells, the features available@ in the shells that are lacking (or take another form) in DCL are@ extremely few, IMO. The reverse, however, is not true. There areH features available in DCL (due to the underlying services present on VMSH but lacking on UN*X) which simply do not, and can not, exist in the UN*X shells.P  H It's not "NIH" ("Not Invented Here") as many folks want to think. RatherF it's KFM (Key Features Missing) that prevent VMS <-> UN*X transparency from being a total reality.D  D In a very real way - and this is not to be intentionally derogatory,F just factual - the disparity of features makes UN*X, by necessity, the "lowest common denominator".  
 For examples:   0 o Avoid RMS because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack RMS  H o Avoid ODS dependencies (multiple file versions, discrete disk volumes,+ etc.) because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack ODS.   E o Avoid logical names because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack logical names.0  C o Avoid distinguishing between local and global CLI symbols becauseh, non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack such functionality.  H Remember: UN*X (including Linux, by the way) is a SUBSET of OpenVMS, not= a SUPERset, quite the reverse: OpenVMS is a SUPERSET of UN*X.:   B > Windows also suffers from a similar insular attitude among their> > Engineering and Development people, but Windows has a numberD > of other offsetting factors (billions in marketing and development! > come to mind) to overcome this.l  E ...which raises a question in my mind: How come no one grouses (well,oH maybe they do and I just don't hear about it) because shell scripts etc." aren't facilitated by Whine-Blows?   -- a David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:53:11 -0400o* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Quality, Message-ID: <39899567.B521805@tsoft-inc.com>   David Mathog wrote:  > B > >Why? Just so your scripts will run on Linux or VMS, unmodified? > L > No, not MY scripts, but everybody elses.  And yes, unmodified, or as closeM > to it as possible.   Many packages I've seen come with a mishmash of sh andnI > csh scripts - it would be nice for once to be able to actually use them J > as supplied and not have to rewrite them into DCL.  Especially when theyL > are a zillion lines long and totally uncommented.  (Alternatively, a sh orJ > csh to DCL translator would suffice - but it would probably be easier to. > get the shells running than the translator.) >  > > J > >F.Y.I.: ksh (csh, bash, etc.) lacks such things as F$xxxx(). So, to me, > >it's really a wash. > M > Not to me.  Your argument is bogus when it comes to the utility of existinglM > code - just because a program is written in a language you detest (which isAL > basically what we're talking about here even though these are "only" shellK > scripts) doesn't mean that the program is not useful.  Nor should it mean K > that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS yousI > can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and cshLL > should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.( > And as such, they should be supported.  P Does this also mean that all the various Unix systems are also deficient becauseO they do not support DCL?  Or are we proposing a double standard here?  Yes, I'mgO aware of the third party packages that implement some of DCL on other systems. iP Seems though that the wish here is not for third party support of Unix shells on VMS.  O In case the perception is that only Unix scripts exist, I for one have some DCLa scripts.   Dave   -- 44 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:04:30 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <3989FBBA.E9EC40BA@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:- >David Mathog wrote:N >> Not to me.  Your argument is bogus when it comes to the utility of existingD >> code - just because a program is written in a language you detest >d. >Excuse me? Who said I detest the UN*X shells? > B >I find UN*X labor intensive and feature impoverished, but I don't+ >"detest" it (not as much as I detest NT!).  >  >> (which isM >> basically what we're talking about here even though these are "only" shellt8 >> scripts) doesn't mean that the program is not useful. >' >Never said that, either.h >aH >However, I might conter that just as you wnat me to learn shell scriptsI >because that's what UN*X uses, I could easily counter that those who run)A >their stuff on VMS should learn DCL, since that's what VMS uses.t >  >See? It's a two way street! >  >>  Nor should it meanL >> that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS youJ >> can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and cshM >> should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.p) >> And as such, they should be supported.o >t6 >So go ahead and port {ksh, sh, bash, csh} to OpenVMS!  J ...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainJ damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of theJ unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theH DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:  * static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble)   {e     ...e   } J %CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return    statementy  	  ...or...h  O %CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value  7 "mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int".r  	  ...or...l  K %CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed ,% struct", is being converted to "int".e  	  ...or...n  K %CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but o(   occurs in a context that requires one.    ...or...     $     (and this one's my all time fav)  +     char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};p ......................^hN %CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is  1 too many.d    G Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"sI freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been o, changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:15:26 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>r Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398A0B1E.4F8F9B8C@earthlink.net>    David A Froble wrote:2 [snip]P > Nah, can't let that one get by.  When cell phones first appeared, not everyone > went out and bought one. t  G They couldn't! The "bag phone" that I got for free back in 1992 cost my-< now boss a couple of thousand dollars back in 1982/83 or so.  7 > Some did, but not nearly as many as are in use today.:R > What people did, on an individual basis, was at some time decide that they had aP > need for a product that they already knew about, and at first didn't feel thatQ > they needed.  Some part of this is also affected in the decreasing prices.  So,iN > marketing may have educated them to the possibilities, but individuals chose& > when and if they needed the product.  E I'm reminded of story on the morning news-radio the other day about aoF chap who was at a vocal concert of some sort. His cell phone rang. NotD only did he take the call, but he tried to shush the performer so heH could hear better. Sort of like a commercial that's been on TV in recent memory.e  eO > As for how this pertains to VMS, many people in IT today do not know what VMSaP > can do.  Marketing can educate them about the capabilities of VMS.  Users willR > still make individual decisions about whether they need VMS.  The problem now isN > that many users cannot make that decision because they don't know about VMS.  E But, Bill Todd says that advertising and marketing are inneffectual -h@ Harvard Business School says so, and as we all know, HBS is God!  iK > > If people bought only what they need, there would no Wal-Marts, CircuitaD > > City stores, Best Buy stores, CompUsa, Computer Renaissance, ... > O > People do buy what they perceive they need, and no more.  It's the perceptionaJ > that varies.  Don't know why we don't need stores.  What does that mean?  ? But whence came that perception? Was in intrinsic or extrinsic?r  D (<MUSIC> Aren't you hungry? Aren't you hungry? </MUSIC> (Burger King" commercial from some years back.))  eL > > Yes, my friend, it _IS_ all in the marketing! First you create a need inL > > the market's mind, then present your product as the answer to that need.B > > Check with your local community college's business department,K > > instructor (or dean) of advertising and/or marketing and ask him/her ifs > > that's not how its done. > ; > Not all consumers are as dumb as you make them out to be.   H Who's making them out to be dumb? Experience and studies (other than theG one Bill quoted) have shown that opinion - as well as perceptions - canr> be swayed by effective marketing. That's not dumb, just human.   R > Also, I'd think that VMS should sell because it is the best product for the job,O > not because you convinced someone that they needed VMS, regardless of whether  > they do or not.a  A Well, ask yourself: what does OpenVMS have that "the competition"sC (intentionally unqualified statement) lacks? That is, what does therA customer need that OpenVMS alone can provide? ...that OpenVMS can @ provide more effectively and/or reliably than "the competition"?  lO > When you discuss marketing, are you talking about sellers educating consumerse/ > about a product, or the actions of a con man?y  D Yes - to both. Unfortunately, that is the reality of the marketplaceH today. We don't have to like it. We only need to make sure that we focusF on determining what the customer needs and then illustrate how OpenVMS@ fills those needs - or fails to do so (let's be realistic here).   -- e David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:32:35 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398A0F23.A9734E9C@earthlink.net>    Bill Todd wrote: > 9 > Ramon L. Tate <taterskins@patriot.net> wrote in messageh@ > news:taterskins-ya023480000208002259200001@news.patriot.net... [snip] > >tK > > The second most important is PERCEIVED compatibility with other leadingo
 > > products.c > F > Just in case the superficial decision based on market leadership wasL > ill-founded, I suspect.  But the combination of the two is cheap insuranceK > against truly bad decisions without the effort (or competence)required tom > make a truly *good* decision._  H Don't "do it right", just don't f--- it up, huh? No wonder the gov't. is in the state it's in!u  aB >  And again, the last sentence in the foregoing paragraph appliesJ > > equally with respect to this consideration, too. If you (1) aren't theI > > market leader and (2) are perceived as "incompatible" with the marketo1 > > leader's products, you are below the horizon.  > H > Sounds just like what I've been saying about VMS for a long time.  AndM > neither point can be changed by marketing alone.  But if VMS were to become B > reasonably compatible (e.g., support a reasonably complete LinuxL > environment), then making sure the market was informed of that (plus VMS's' > additional strengths) would be vital.   F There's nothing stopping anyone from doing Linux things under OpenVMS!B You can side-step ODS and RMS and ... all you want, as long as you; understand that you do so at your own {expense,peril,etc.}.l   --   David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 20:54:57 -0400 / From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)l Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8md491$kdk$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <39899567.B521805@tsoft-inc.com>,, David A Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: >David Mathog wrote: >> /C >> >Why? Just so your scripts will run on Linux or VMS, unmodified?  >> 0M >> No, not MY scripts, but everybody elses.  And yes, unmodified, or as closenN >> to it as possible.   Many packages I've seen come with a mishmash of sh andJ >> csh scripts - it would be nice for once to be able to actually use themK >> as supplied and not have to rewrite them into DCL.  Especially when theyaM >> are a zillion lines long and totally uncommented.  (Alternatively, a sh or K >> csh to DCL translator would suffice - but it would probably be easier tou/ >> get the shells running than the translator.)  >> w >> >K >> >F.Y.I.: ksh (csh, bash, etc.) lacks such things as F$xxxx(). So, to me,  >> >it's really a wash.s >> tN >> Not to me.  Your argument is bogus when it comes to the utility of existingN >> code - just because a program is written in a language you detest (which isM >> basically what we're talking about here even though these are "only" shelluL >> scripts) doesn't mean that the program is not useful.  Nor should it meanL >> that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS youJ >> can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and cshM >> should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.t) >> And as such, they should be supported.  >tQ >Does this also mean that all the various Unix systems are also deficient becausetP >they do not support DCL?  Or are we proposing a double standard here?  Yes, I'mP >aware of the third party packages that implement some of DCL on other systems. Q >Seems though that the wish here is not for third party support of Unix shells ont >VMS.j  J Yes, the Unix systems are deficient because they do not support DCL.  But,7 it's a deficiency that doesn't bother very many people.u  I The primary usefulness of shell scripting on OpenVMS would be to support tI the installation, management and configuration of systems that are built,dH in part using shell scripts.  There are few packages available that comeE with DCL scripts that don't also have an equivalent version packaged a with a shell script.  J If the market share situation between OpenVMS and Unix were reversed, thenD the lack of DCL scripting on Unix systems would be more of an issue.   >aP >In case the perception is that only Unix scripts exist, I for one have some DCL	 >scripts.o >u >Dave  >t >-- 5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450 5 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596D? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.comA7 >T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486w   -Jordan Hendersons jordan@greenapple.com-   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 21:12:12 -0400 / From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson): Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >nK >...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is braintK >damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of therK >unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if thetI >DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:d > + >static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble)  >  { >    ... >  } eK >%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return a >  statement > 
 > ...or... >nP >%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value 8 >"mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int". >e
 > ...or... >cL >%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed & >struct", is being converted to "int". >b
 > ...or... >tL >%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but ) >  occurs in a context that requires one.s > 
 > ...or...   " >N% >    (and this one's my all time fav)o >i, >    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >......................^O >%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is t >1 too many. >y   Hmmm...,   bash-2.04$ cat mumble.ci #include <stdio.h>  & static int mumble(int a, int b, int c) {m         int d = a + b + c;  6         ( void )printf( "The mumble sum is %d\n", d ); }   ' char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};i  ! int main( int argc, char **argv )o {p4         mumble( (int)digits[0], (int)digits[1], 2 );           return 0;e }a bash-2.04$ gcc -Wall mumble.ci mumble.c: In function `mumble':o= mumble.c:8: warning: control reaches end of non-void functionn mumble.c: At top level:(: mumble.c:10: warning: excess elements in array initializer8 mumble.c:10: warning: (near initialization for `digits')   > H >Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"J >freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been - >changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.p >t  D Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC! compiler with regard to warnings.l   >--bP >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   -Jordan Henderson? jordan@greenapple.comt   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 21:15:17 -0400l/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)w Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8md5f5$lot$1@lisa.gemair.com>  - In article <398A0669.6FA69563@earthlink.net>,r6 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote: >Jordan Henderson wrote: >> n, >> In article <39899D8E.B09A9A7@uk.sun.com>,G >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:Y >> >D >> >You attitude seems to be roughly equivalent to a patient waitingD >> >for a heart transplant who turns down a viable heart because the >> >donor had athletes foot. >> >H >> >This is exactly the attitude that makes people observing the OpenVMSH >> >market from the outside draw the obvious conclusion that its doomed. >> > >> m >> I couldn't agree more.s >>  E >> The insular, NIH attitude of the OpenVMS user community is perhaps 5 >> the biggest obstacle to OpenVMS market acceptance.  > ! >I think that may be a bit harsh.l >sG >Having experience with both DCL and the shells, the features availableoA >in the shells that are lacking (or take another form) in DCL arenA >extremely few, IMO. The reverse, however, is not true. There aretI >features available in DCL (due to the underlying services present on VMS I >but lacking on UN*X) which simply do not, and can not, exist in the UN*XN >shells. >mI >It's not "NIH" ("Not Invented Here") as many folks want to think. RatherMG >it's KFM (Key Features Missing) that prevent VMS <-> UN*X transparency  >from being a total reality. >iE >In a very real way - and this is not to be intentionally derogatory,eG >just factual - the disparity of features makes UN*X, by necessity, they >"lowest common denominator".e >h >For examples: >C1 >o Avoid RMS because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack RMSs >'I >o Avoid ODS dependencies (multiple file versions, discrete disk volumes,y, >etc.) because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack ODS. >fF >o Avoid logical names because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack logical names. > D >o Avoid distinguishing between local and global CLI symbols because- >non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack such functionality.T > I >Remember: UN*X (including Linux, by the way) is a SUBSET of OpenVMS, notr> >a SUPERset, quite the reverse: OpenVMS is a SUPERSET of UN*X. >   D OpenVMS is a superset of UN*X?  Oh, good then, then I'll be able to C run all of those great applications that are becoming available forr Linux then.  What a relief!V  C >> Windows also suffers from a similar insular attitude among theirH? >> Engineering and Development people, but Windows has a numberJE >> of other offsetting factors (billions in marketing and development:" >> come to mind) to overcome this. > F >...which raises a question in my mind: How come no one grouses (well,I >maybe they do and I just don't hear about it) because shell scripts etc.h# >aren't facilitated by Whine-Blows?r >t  I Maybe because there are a number of good free Unix environments availabled0 fot Windows.  See U/Win and Cygwin for examples.   >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/s >o; >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:h  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:43:26 -0400s& From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Quality+ Message-ID: <398A49EE.B8C58EDA@idirect.com>r   >David A Froble wrote:   > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:J > > Marketing has convinced the masses that they need everything from cell@ > > phones per person to cars with internet capabilities (recent > > announcement by Ford).P > Nah, can't let that one get by.  When cell phones first appeared, not everyoneQ > went out and bought one.  Some did, but not nearly as many as are in use today. R > What people did, on an individual basis, was at some time decide that they had aP > need for a product that they already knew about, and at first didn't feel thatQ > they needed.  Some part of this is also affected in the decreasing prices.  So,yN > marketing may have educated them to the possibilities, but individuals chose& > when and if they needed the product.   Jerome Fine replies:  O Probably the real problem here is that you are both correct.  Somewhere between N 1% and 99% of all products are sold based on real need at one end of the scaleO and advertising/con job at the other end of the scale.  So you are both correctsN within that range.  The problem might be that since neither of you define whatM you deem to be the cross-over point between real need vs advertising/con job,iT and in any case the definition is subjective (although I suspect that based on priorP posts both of you actually agree to a very large extent and are merely trying to= make your points - as I am), the problem is mute in any case.o  O I suspect part of the problem is also the definition of need.  Right now I havesN a cell phone because it is a gift from my son.  I am allowed up to 200 minutesI on the plan per month and between my wife and I, we probably end up usingeN about 50 minutes a month after trying as much as possible to be wasteful sinceI we are told off when we use too little - as we did one month when we used L only 13 minutes.  Now, would my wife be willing to spend the money per monthE on the cell phone - based on one month when the car broke down and wetJ used all of 25 minutes - YES!  For me, the answer would still be NO!  Do I8 now use it a bit - YES, but I still feel it is wasteful.  J But, if I was making $ 1,000,000 a year and felt that spending $20 a month7 was not a concern, well, probably then I would say YES!i  O > As for how this pertains to VMS, many people in IT today do not know what VMStP > can do.  Marketing can educate them about the capabilities of VMS.  Users willR > still make individual decisions about whether they need VMS.  The problem now isN > that many users cannot make that decision because they don't know about VMS.  L Well, if DEC had allowed those hobby licenses back when, perhaps more peopleJ would know.  David and David, you are probably closer than you realize.  ID think that you just need to define your definitions more accurately!  K > > If people bought only what they need, there would no Wal-Marts, CircuitoD > > City stores, Best Buy stores, CompUsa, Computer Renaissance, ...O > People do buy what they perceive they need, and no more.  It's the perceptionmJ > that varies.  Don't know why we don't need stores.  What does that mean?  G Sure you do - both of you.  While I agree that advertising has made the B Western developed world VERY wasteful and that most of us would beD much happier without all those THINGS that we think (HAVE BEEN TOLD/J CONVINCED via advertising) that we need, the cost of all that junk is muchN cheaper due to mass marketing and sales (per unit sold) than if all buying wasK based solely on need.  The real problem is the lack of understanding of thesH hidden costs associated with mass production to support all those sales.J And yes, there are some benefits.  Has anyone really done an overall cost/J benefit analysis?  At the very least, we had better get to those asteroidsE to replace the raw materials we have used up.  Otherwise, sometime inII the next 1000 years, the industrial society will come crashing down.  AndfJ we had better start cutting down on total population or at least putting aG large percentage somewhere off-earth.  Is anyone looking into long termo problems and solutions?t  L > > Yes, my friend, it _IS_ all in the marketing! First you create a need inL > > the market's mind, then present your product as the answer to that need.B > > Check with your local community college's business department,K > > instructor (or dean) of advertising and/or marketing and ask him/her ifu > > that's not how its done.; > Not all consumers are as dumb as you make them out to be.a  J True!  But many sure seem to be!  It is that 1% to 99% range again.  And IM think both of you are in very close agreement if you would be ask each other.   R > Also, I'd think that VMS should sell because it is the best product for the job,O > not because you convinced someone that they needed VMS, regardless of whethers > they do or not.q  I Then how did Billy convince so many to use that junk called W95/W98?  DidS price play any part?  O > When you discuss marketing, are you talking about sellers educating consumers?/ > about a product, or the actions of a con man?n > Dave   Maybe both??????  N Hey - almost everyone on this news group believes that VMS is much better thanI W95/W98, but most will also agree that VMS is overpriced.  Could DEC haveiI taken a chance and lowered VMS prices for the desktop?  YES!!  Did DEC dotJ so?  NO!  Did Compaq/DEC finally allow a hobby license?  YES!!!!!!  Was itQ too little/too late?  We will not know for another 10 years.  It will also dependpL on if Compaq wants to gamble now that it is probably too late.  The cash cowP is still producing cash.  Is anyone willing to guarantee Compaq the same profitsI for the next ten years while VMS gains market share from being made FREE?rH Who will develop the GUI now that W95/W98 has made that a necessary part of a user interface?  F Maybe I am asking the wrong questions?  But I see both David and DavidN trying to help, each in their own way, but I suspect that only co-operation byI everyone will help VMS at this point - especially including Compaq!  Will H that happen?  Only if everyone is willing to look at the long term and IJ doubt that Compaq is willing to donate $5 Billion in profits over the nextJ 10 years on that chance.  That is sad, but it is also our current society.   Sincerely yours,   Jerome Finey   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:55:27 -0700' From: "Andrew Mould" <ram@softsell.com>nY Subject: Re: Re Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: Ch. Message-ID: <sojg3qgsdbm26@corp.supernews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@Killeen.cc> wrote in messages, news:8mbvdn$hop$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...8 > This was the response I received from the CSA folks... >eF > "   Jeff we are currently planning a one day event prior to ITUG forD > partners. This one day will deal exclusively with in depth futuresG > presentations, that will include roadmaps, migration to alpha, etc. "n > @ > ...again ITUG should be communicating this stuff and not me... >i   Thanks for that info Jeff,  J I may be misguided, but if it's for Compaq partners, then I'd have thoughtI CSA should have primary responisibility for communicating this stuff, nota ITUG (or you!).    - Andrew   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:44:32 -0400& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@Killeen.cc>Y Subject: Re: Re Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: C-2 Message-ID: <8mci3p$nmm$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>  L I suspect you will be hearing from CSA.  Lets just say they have had to sortI out all the sensitivities involved in this subject.  Life would be easieri7 for most if they were allowed do it all in one place...D     --     Jeff Killeen - www.Killeen.ccyE ===================================================================== 2 "Andrew Mould" <ram@softsell.com> wrote in message( news:sojg3qgsdbm26@corp.supernews.com... >c3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@Killeen.cc> wrote in messageh. > news:8mbvdn$hop$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...: > > This was the response I received from the CSA folks... > > H > > "   Jeff we are currently planning a one day event prior to ITUG forF > > partners. This one day will deal exclusively with in depth futuresI > > presentations, that will include roadmaps, migration to alpha, etc. "n > >tB > > ...again ITUG should be communicating this stuff and not me... > >i >  > Thanks for that info Jeff, >sL > I may be misguided, but if it's for Compaq partners, then I'd have thoughtK > CSA should have primary responisibility for communicating this stuff, notn > ITUG (or you!).h > 
 > - Andrew >y >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:45:02 -0400 , From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>/ Subject: Re: Telnet in a single line command...r> Message-ID: <hshubs-058ADC.21450203082000@news.mindspring.com>  6 In article <39895E5E.5D89C865@gtech.com>, Arne Vajhoj  <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:   A >IO using SYS$QIOW or SMG$ will not work with such redefinitions.s  F Okay, I've done a bit more research.  I'm trying to build GNU telnet. H <grin>  From what I've been able to tell, it seems that UCX uses a kind D of unfortunate design which includes use of SMG for some gawd-awful H reason.  Another option might be to write a telnet program which allows  this kind of operation.    -- a Howard S Shubs, the Denim AdeptV   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 23:01:17 -0400.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e/ Subject: Re: Telnet in a single line command...l, Message-ID: <398A31F8.9A129FB9@videotron.ca>   Howard S Shubs wrote:eG > Okay, I've done a bit more research.  I'm trying to build GNU telnet.iI > <grin>  From what I've been able to tell, it seems that UCX uses a kind'E > of unfortunate design which includes use of SMG for some gawd-awfulf	 > reason.   G Kermit does what you want. It can connect to any port, fully scriptableCL communications to the internet. It is robust, mature (been tested for years)1 and fully availble for many flavours of VMS/tcpiph   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 01:46:46 -0500 * From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) Subject: The Linux Paradigm:+ Message-ID: <DnsYrCesjHYi@eisner.decus.org>   n In article <39899D8E.B09A9A7@uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  C > Sure RMS isn't available for UNIX but then thats hardly the pointuE > is it, we are talking about tools that assist people in moving apps:; > from Linux/UNIX to OpenVMS and not the other way arround.. > B > You attitude seems to be roughly equivalent to a patient waitingB > for a heart transplant who turns down a viable heart because the > donor had athletes foot. > F > This is exactly the attitude that makes people observing the OpenVMSF > market from the outside draw the obvious conclusion that its doomed. >   : 	Using IBM as an example we see a fairly large corporation, 	that to me, understands the Linux paradigm:  J http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1727943.html?tag=st.ne.ni.rnbot.rn.ni  C 	If IDC is correct, Linux will indeed represent an inflection point  	in the industry:e  K http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-2332817.html?tag=st.ne.1002.srchres.niy  H "In 1999, Linux scooted past Novell's Netware to become the No. 2 serverM operating system behind Microsoft's Windows NT. Over the next four years, IDCtL said, Linux shipments will grow at a rate of 28 percent, from 1.3 million in 1999 to 4.7 million in 2004. "  : 	And now the Linux clustering product worthy of that label 	is just about read to roll:  1 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/12022.html   J "There's no doubt that Linux FailSafe looks like a pretty complete packageO right down to the GUI front end for cluster management, and its 16-node clustersO stands up to SCO's NSC clusters, let alone Microsoft's two-node MCS. However it<N needs the applications, and porting teams at the likes of Oracle, Informix andN IBM need to see a durable-looking API before they can propose a business case.3 With FailSafe, it looks like they've just got one."h  < 	Java is no longer the goal.  The goal is to use Linux as an 	underlying API...  9 http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?IWK20000731S0015n  O "In addition to rebranding the systems, IBM will use Linux as the lingua francau that ties them together."b   			AND  K "IBM has long promised server interoperability through Java, but Linux is aaG better alternative, says Curt Finch, CEO of project-management software N developer Journyx Inc. "The idea was that you would write all your software toJ Java, but that takes a lot of work, and it was never a cure-all," he says.O Recompiling applications from Linux to other operating systems, such as AIX, isr much easier, Finch adds."    	"Much easier."e   	So Andrew, when you say::  > > we are talking about tools that assist people in moving apps; > from Linux/UNIX to OpenVMS and not the other way arround.   < 	That isn't an accurate view.  It is about a clean recompileH 	as a worthy goal.  Not hacking up a Java hairball.  If everyone in the > 	world knows what IBM is up to, wouldn't you think others are F 	following suit?  After all, fork() is making its way into VMS so the  	rest is a breeze.    HA!9  = 	There are strong hints VMS is also moving in that direction:a  @ http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/products/ips/porting.html  = 	With that said, I don't know what they are quite up to.  ButaA 	it wouldn't be much of a stretch to conclude it would be a grands? 	idea to follow in IBM's wake and do likewise.  After all, Javao, 	is so late 90s , Linux is the standard now.   > F > This is exactly the attitude that makes people observing the OpenVMSF > market from the outside draw the obvious conclusion that its doomed. >   9 	Not if 3 years from now everyone is writing to the Linuxt< 	API and it compiles clean as a whistle across 20 platforms.: 	VMS is one of the target platforms because it is the best 	Linux back-end out there.  (                                      Rob   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 20:12:57 -0400e2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>% Subject: UCX 4.1 to 4.2 upgrade queryh7 Message-ID: <200008032013_MC2-AE85-8261@compuserve.com>l  J         I think UCX 4.2 may still have the "bug" that causes startup and/= orJ shutdown to purge all the log files in SYS$MANAGER.  If this is a concern=  H for you, make a backup or fix all the UCX$STARTUP_MUMBLE.COM by changingH all PURGE *.LOG to PURGE UCX*.LOG; exactly how specific you get is up to you.  > Message text written by INTERNET:abirkett@unneccessary.csc.com" >Alphaserver 4000 5/400, VMS=3D7.1  H I can't see anything in the installation quide, but does anybody know ofF any 'gotchas' when upgrading from UCX 4.1 to 4.2. Call me paranoid but this has to work first time! <s   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:00:55 GMTh# From: Mark Sterk <strong@chello.nl>o2 Subject: Re: VAX 4000/100 SCSI Expansion with Qbus) Message-ID: <3989EA35.3AB196C1@chello.nl>x   There is a far better solution.S  G You can use a KZDDA-AA (I am not sure about the -AA part, I can look it H up if you want) , this is a fast SCSI II (10MB/s) controller that can be piggybacked on the mainboard.nI This option is intended for a 4000-105 but can be used in a 4000-100 too.o  H If you use a QBUS solution with one or more KFQSA-AA controllers, you'llH only have a SCSI-1 bus (4.7MB/s) with a max. of four devices on the scsi bus (even worse than DSSI)    
 Greetings,  
 Mark Sterk         "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote:  G > Quick question for any 4000 hardware experts...  Does anyone have anytE > experience with the QBUS expansion capabilities of the 4000/100 andeG > using the extended QBUS backplane to run additional SCSI adapters foroE > disk storage?  Can this be done and if so, what type of performanceyD > could be anticipated?  Any better than the DSSI to SCSI conversion > route? >s
 > Regards, >o > Barryf >d > -- >VA > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO  >JC > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:11:34 -0700d+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> 2 Subject: Re: VAX 4000/100 SCSI Expansion with Qbus( Message-ID: <3989FC26.856FE0E0@mmaz.com>  G I was told that this only worked on the 3100 & 4000/100A, 105A, etc and K newer, not the original 4000/100.  If this can be confirmed otherwise, thate1 would be fantastic, provided I could source it...e  H I'm trying to stay away for DSSI, I'm not interested in the DSSI to SCSIE convertor from DEC/Compaq because it is my understanding that it is aoJ StorageWorks module and I'm trying to get away from SW, I've got QBUS SCSIL controllers, and figured that yes, the QBUS is 3MB, DSSI is 4MB, but I couldB use it for my slower devices and save the internal SCSI for disks.  L I'm in need of additional confirmation, I know that 8GB drives will run findK on VMS 5-5.2, but I do not recall if they are bootable.  Additionally, whatbI is the exact limit in MB's for the maximum volume size?  I'm looking at a L couple hardware options that have internal volume managers in the RAID arrayI hardware that would allow me to slice and present to the VAX the physical & limit I can get away with per drive...   Regards,   Barry    Mark Sterk wrote:   ! > There is a far better solution.o > I > You can use a KZDDA-AA (I am not sure about the -AA part, I can look itiJ > up if you want) , this is a fast SCSI II (10MB/s) controller that can be > piggybacked on the mainboard. K > This option is intended for a 4000-105 but can be used in a 4000-100 too.  > J > If you use a QBUS solution with one or more KFQSA-AA controllers, you'llJ > only have a SCSI-1 bus (4.7MB/s) with a max. of four devices on the scsi > bus (even worse than DSSI) >e > Greetings, >e > Mark Sterk >w > "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote: >0I > > Quick question for any 4000 hardware experts...  Does anyone have anyaG > > experience with the QBUS expansion capabilities of the 4000/100 andnI > > using the extended QBUS backplane to run additional SCSI adapters for G > > disk storage?  Can this be done and if so, what type of performancesF > > could be anticipated?  Any better than the DSSI to SCSI conversion
 > > route? > >t > > Regards, > > 	 > > Barryw > >u > > -- > > C > > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOa > > E > > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028e   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOM  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2000 13:06:45 PDT T From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515), Subject: Re: Versions of DSN - which is best3 Message-ID: <ud+PefHmzBtY@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>w  * In article <8mbm14$ioi$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, ,     	Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com> writes: [...]eF > Also as our internet access goes via a firewall can you confirm that0 > you can configure DSN 2.2E to use a web proxy?  H         Pretty sure  the  answer  is  yes.   There  is  a  option (afterH     installation)  to configure for "single-port firewall" usage.  Also,H     the _other_ end (CSC) is behind a firewall so it pretty  much  meansH     they  know  how  to  work  through firewalls.  OTOH, I don't use webH     access (WIS?), only the "direct" TCP/IP  connection, so there may be$     other issues I'm not aware of...           -Ken -- LM  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edu :  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:07:11 -0700t) From: Rick Cadruvi <rick@rick.rdperf.com>r# Subject: Re: Web Base Telnet client / Message-ID: <39890C0F.AF89EAE8@rick.rdperf.com>,  G I use SecureCRT from www.vandyke.com.  They have volume discounting and F it is configurable enough to allow any VMS keystrokes to be programmed9 for any PC keyboard.  The latest version works very well.r   Rick...s   Bill Stouffer wrote: > K > Does have experience or an option to offer on accessing VMS systems via at > web based telnet session.oJ > I need to provide 700 Windows 2K and NT machines assess to a VAX running# > TcpWare and an Alpha running UCX.tG > Client based options are quickly becoming expensive and cumbersome tot > maintain.s >  > Bill Stouffers > bill_stouffer@lord.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:26:32 GMTo/ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@ameritech.net.nospam>n# Subject: Re: Web Base Telnet client 0 Message-ID: <398A0DDF.1A43ABFE@wi.rr.com.nospam>  ! We use Anota's java terminal app.c I think it's at www.anota.com.   -Scott   Bill Stouffer wrote:  K > Does have experience or an option to offer on accessing VMS systems via ac > web based telnet session.lJ > I need to provide 700 Windows 2K and NT machines assess to a VAX running# > TcpWare and an Alpha running UCX. G > Client based options are quickly becoming expensive and cumbersome toa > maintain.? >  > Bill Stouffery > bill_stouffer@lord.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.432 ************************