1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 04 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 433       Contents:( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS( Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS! Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA ! Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA  dcps documentation?  Re: dcps documentation? " Re: DECamds - where are the nodes?  Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS  Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS( Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha$ GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha	 Re: Help! # Re: I NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS... # Re: I NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS...  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  RE: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement?  Re: Is there a TSM replacement? ) Re: Is there a TSM replacement? [Summary] 6 Re: mgftp 2.6-2 client, Win NT ftp server 4.0 problems Re: NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS.  Odd (to me) backup results... ! Re: Odd (to me) backup results...   OpenVMS V7.3 EFT1/SDK1, Freeware) Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY ) Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality   SMG calls bringing up EDT editor5 Re: Support of PowerStorm P300 and P350 under OpenVMS & Re: Telnet in a single line command... Re: The Linux Paradigm Re: The Linux Paradigm Re: The Linux Paradigm( Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet ship( Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet ship( Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet ship( Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet ship Re: UCX 5 Telnet problem. Updated FORRTL_TV - Translated VAX Fortran RTL VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS . What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?! where download the rsaref source? % Re: where download the rsaref source?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 08:26:49 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS + Message-ID: <t$ruqsfLMdIp@eisner.decus.org>   p In article <009EE0E6.22FF5571@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:m > In article <4.3.2.7.2.20000803113544.0331c0b8@pop.clsp.uswest.net>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: , >>At 11:09 AM 8/3/2000, Chris Scheers wrote:
 >>>nic wrote:  >>> > {...snip...} >>> ! >>>How many copies would you buy?  >>N >>Buy?  None.  There's an acceptable (albeit, slower) viewer already available >>for free.  > H > ... and with that reasoning, we should all be using CMU for TCP/IP and > not TCPware or Multinet?  ;) > B >>  OK, I take it back; maybe $10 per seat or something like that. > F > Something not too pricey, I believe, would be the general consensus?  < $10 is not my idea of what will result in a quality product.< There are things that could be done with PDF on VMS that are< not viable on Windows, and I want to see a PDF viewer on VMS< that is truly "best in class".  Believe it or not, that does& take effort on the part of the vendor.  = I understand (some of) the economics of software development, < and a revenue stream is necessary for the vendor to maintain" interest in upgrading the product.  ; I would propose $100 for a concurrent use license including # a one year "right to new versions".   ? Anyone who wants a cheaper solution can go get the free program ? Dan proposed, but for some of us time is money and fussing with " unsupported software is lost time.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:18:36 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <398AC2AB.E8D2C405@gtech.com>    Dan O'Reilly wrote: , > At 11:09 AM 8/3/2000, Chris Scheers wrote:9 > >Unfortunately, the pricing has not been finalized yet.  > > H > >In fact, this is a good opportunity to provide input into the pricing > >process.  > > 6 > >(This is open to anyone who would like to respond.) > > K > >What do you think is a reasonable price for the PDF Viewer with one year  > >of updates? > > < > >Should it be priced per system, per cluster, or per seat? > > ! > >How many copies would you buy?  > N > Buy?  None.  There's an acceptable (albeit, slower) viewer already availableK > for free.  OK, I take it back; maybe $10 per seat or something like that. K > Let's face it: reading PDF files on VMS is something people want to do on K > occasion, but most people end up reading them on M$ stuff, because that's  > where the mail goes to...   = If people need to read PDF for work they should be willing to  pay for it.   ? If they just use it for hobbyist usage etc., then ofcourse they  are not willing to pay (much).   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:28:38 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS C Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000804072743.00b3c0b0@pop.clsp.uswest.net>   * At 07:18 AM 8/4/2000, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: >Dan O'Reilly wrote: > I > > Buy?  None.  There's an acceptable (albeit, slower) viewer already=20  > available H > > for free.  OK, I take it back; maybe $10 per seat or something like=  that.K > > Let's face it: reading PDF files on VMS is something people want to do=   on G > > occasion, but most people end up reading them on M$ stuff, because=   that's  > > where the mail goes to...  > > >If people need to read PDF for work they should be willing to >pay for it. > @ >If they just use it for hobbyist usage etc., then ofcourse they >are not willing to pay (much).   G That's the point I was making.  I wasn't speaking as a Process Software $ employee, but rather, as a hobbyist.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Those are my principles. If you     | I | Process Software              |   don't like them I have others."     | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 17:13:40 GMT ' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) 1 Subject: Re: Announcement: PDF Viewer for OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <8metk4$d0g$1@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk>  i In article <398AC2AB.E8D2C405@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:  >Dan O'Reilly wrote:- >> At 11:09 AM 8/3/2000, Chris Scheers wrote: : >> >Unfortunately, the pricing has not been finalized yet. >> >I >> >In fact, this is a good opportunity to provide input into the pricing  >> >process. >> >7 >> >(This is open to anyone who would like to respond.)  >> >L >> >What do you think is a reasonable price for the PDF Viewer with one year >> >of updates?  >> >= >> >Should it be priced per system, per cluster, or per seat?  >> >" >> >How many copies would you buy? >>  O >> Buy?  None.  There's an acceptable (albeit, slower) viewer already available L >> for free.  OK, I take it back; maybe $10 per seat or something like that.L >> Let's face it: reading PDF files on VMS is something people want to do onL >> occasion, but most people end up reading them on M$ stuff, because that's >> where the mail goes to... > > >If people need to read PDF for work they should be willing to >pay for it. > @ >If they just use it for hobbyist usage etc., then ofcourse they >are not willing to pay (much).  >  >Arne     I But with the Adobe Acrobat Reader being free on other platforms how do I  ; convince anybody to purchase an equivalent product on VMS ?   J Now if you were talking about a tool to create PDF documents then that is @ another matter since the equivalent Acrobat products cost money.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 06:17:37 -0500 (CDT) & From: Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org>* Subject: Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA- Message-ID: <01JSK94N6TZ8001WGL@SEMATECH.Org>   / Carl Perkins (carl@gergl1.gerg.tamu.edu) wrote: + >Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org> writes... L >}I can't find any reference to a logical called TMP in any of the SAMBA comM >}files.  But I did find SAMBA_TMPDIR, so I made sure it was world writeable. @ >}It didn't make any difference.  Should I define TMP somewhere? >}Drew  7 >My SMBD_STARTUP.COM file includes the following stuff:  >$!  >$! Setup tmpdir >$! $ >$ tmpdir = f$trnlnm("SAMBA_TMPDIR")1 >$ define TMP 'tmpdir'           ! up to 1.9.16p2 G >$ define TMPDIR 'tmpdir'        ! from 1.9.16p3 on (Andrew told me...)   G >If this isn't in yours, you may want to put it there (and you may want  >to look into why it isn't).  K Oops...you're right, it's there.  I saw the 'tmpdir', but didn't notice the  TMP.   Thanks,  Drew TAMU '82  L ============================================================================6 Drew Shelton                         drew@sematech.org9 VMS Systems Manager                  office: 512-356-7575 9 Sematech                             fax:    512-356-7600  2706 Montopolis Drive K Austin, TX 78741-6499                I speak for myself only, not Sematech. B     "OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"I                                                         - Compaq, 9/22/98 L ============================================================================   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 07:59:54 -0500) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> * Subject: Re: Can't map to drive with SAMBA/ Message-ID: <solff36bdbm183@corp.supernews.com>   G [Also posting to SAMBA-VMS@SAMBA.ORGanization (remove anti-spam device) K Even though the SAMBA-VMS mailing list is not fully functional, it is being K archived, and it is easier to look up things in the archive then find it in  DEJA.   F For those on the SAMBA-VMS still receiving this, please cross post anyE replies to comp.os.vms or info-vax@mvb.saic.comPANY (remove anti-spam 3 device) so that all can see the reply.  Thank you.]   3 "Drew Shelton" <drew@sematech.org> wrote in message ' news:01JSJCHR2WUS001V90@SEMATECH.Org...  > "John E. Malmberg" wrote...  > 4 > >Windows NT in my case was requiring a valid guest4 > >account to be configured.  For some reason it was6 > >connecting as guest first, before logging in as the7 > >user.  If you do not have a guest account configured & > >in your SYSUAF file, it would fail. > 0 > I have a guest account.  I even set it up with" > /NOPASSWORD just to see, and set. > "guest ok = yes", but I still can't connect.  L The name of the account is not "GUEST".  The name is determined by a defaultL name hardcoded into the SAMBA-VMS source in one of the source files, and can" be overidden in the smb.conf file.  H For existing versions of SAMBA-VMS the default name of the guest account seems to be "UCX$NOBODY".    > [snip]4 > >You can try enabling a higher debug level for the1 > >server process to see if it will give you some  > >more information. > 6 > I've never used SAMBA at all before, so I don't know< > what a "good" value is for the debug level.  I've tried it< > at 10, and I've got a lot of information that I don't know= > how to interpret.  It seems that it can't find "/dev/null", > > which isn't surprising.  I don't know how to give it what it > wants.  I There is documentation available from links from http://www.samba.org for D setting some of the debug options that can be specified in smb.conf.  A One that is of interest to you right now, (If it is in 2.0.3) is:        debug uid = Yes   L This will put the uid that the SMBD is currently running in (decimal format)K on every message in the log file.  That will help you determine if and when + that the SMBD process changed user context.   J Since it is working to connect to the SMBD context from SMBCLIENT (assumedI different user than SYSTEM) you can get a debug log from that session and % see how the validation messages look.   F I would generally start at Debug Level 4, and then move higher if moreE information is needed.  At about debug level 8 or higher SAMBA starts 8 showing the data that is coming and going down the wire.  B You should see a sequence where the maximum acceptable protocol isK negotiated, and then calls to become user and change the default directory.   E For an NT client on 2.0.6, I see a sequence to become the guest user, I remember the uid will be given in decimal, not the normal split octal you  are use to.   = This is followed by setting the default directory to be /tmp.   I After this is sucessfull and some other transaction(), it then logs in as   the user logged into the client.  I The debug messages generally always have the routine name that is causing L them to be issued, and many times that name is either very close to the sameK name as a documented unix function, or is descriptive of what is happening. D It is then followed by a longer text that sometimes explains what isL happening.  At higher debug levels, there is less explaination, and more raw data.   B Unfortunately I will not be able to put together a sample log withE anotations to post for comparison purposes for at least another week.     J You will see error messages about having no /dev/nul and other /dev/mumbleI that do not exist on OpenVMS.  The /dev/nul is essentially some code that K supresses messages to SYS$INPUT, SYS$OUTPUT, SYS$ERROR that apparently some D versions of UN*X may generate from routine calls that the SAMBA team3 apparently thought were distracting and misleading.   C In other cases SAMBA is simply probing the operating environment to @ determine what algorithm to use for calculating a random number.  L In one version that I was running under test, the fall back for OpenVMS whenK the test for /dev/random failed was to attempt to do a stat() on every file C in the all subdirectories under the one where the SMBD was running.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 17:44:44 +1000/ From: "Phil Howell" <howellp@snowyhydro.com.au>  Subject: dcps documentation?3 Message-ID: <muui5.69283$N4.1902998@ozemail.com.au>   G We run dcps as it comes bundled with one of the nas products and I have = release notes for versions up to 1.7 but no dcps help library C Is the original documentation on the condist cds somewhere, or else L available on the web, I have tried Compaq, Digital, & Genicom sites and haveA seen lots of pictures of printers but can't find the doco I want.  TIA  Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 09:55:47 -0400 + From: Paul Anderson <panderson@genicom.com>   Subject: Re: dcps documentation?B Message-ID: <panderson-2503A8.09554704082000@news.ma.ultranet.com>  B In article <muui5.69283$N4.1902998@ozemail.com.au>, "Phil Howell" " <howellp@snowyhydro.com.au> wrote:  F > Is the original documentation on the condist cds somewhere, or else F > available on the web, I have tried Compaq, Digital, & Genicom sites D > and have seen lots of pictures of printers but can't find the doco	 > I want.    But aren't the pictures nice?   4 DCPS documentation is available in a number of ways:  6    - Alpha and VAX Online Documentation Library CD-ROM       (HTML)-    - DECprint Supervisor CD-ROM (QA09NABH8) /       (PDF, PostScript, text, HTML, Bookreader)     - hardcopy (QA09NAAGZ)   F If you'd like a PDF set, let me know and I'll send you one vie e-mail.   Paul   --  "    Paul Anderson, DCPS Engineering*    Compaq Computer Corporation, Gardner MA7    (please use 'panderson@genicom.com' address for now)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:40:50 +0200 2 From: "Dr. Otto Titze" <titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de>+ Subject: Re: DECamds - where are the nodes? 3 Message-ID: <398A8FA2.5B46B7D6@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de>f  	 Thanks toe Chuck Taylor Mark D. Jilson5 who gave the right hint pointing to adms$logical.com.   . I had no explicit definition AMDS$DEVICE EWA0:2 After changing this now all nodes are recognised.   H The error I mentioned with the bad datalink which kept the data providerE from shutting down seems now obvious. In that particular system is ane, unused FDDI interface (FWA0). Because of the@ missing device definition this was obviously selected. The error8 did ot show up again with gthe correct adms$logical.com.   Thanks and regards Otto  ,  -------------------------------------------, | Dr. Otto Titze, Kernphysik TUD           |, | Schlossgartenstr. 9, D-64289 Darmstadt   |, | titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de                |, | Tel: +49(6151)16-2916,FAX:16-4321        |,  -------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:08:30 -0600w1 From: Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>e) Subject: Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMSe4 Message-ID: <398A961E.743B2281@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>   Zane H. Healy wrote:  L > I'm not trying to be rude, or a smart-a**, I'm seriously curious, so don'tL > take this wrong.  Why on earth would you want such support on OpenVMS?!?!?L > I can see it on something like MacOS or BeOS, but not on OpenVMS.  I guessL > the problem is I just don't see OpenVMS as a platform for stuff like videoG > editing.  Are there any applications out there that could make use of J > Firewire devices?  Obviously you could hookup a Firewire drive, but thatH > doesn't strike me as a good idea.  I'd much rather stick in a U2W-SCSIH > controller (at least I don't think there are any U3W controllers yet).  F There are several things that make Firewire appealing as a replacementF for SCSI. Better performance (especially with the impending release ofE Firewire II), a MUCH larger number of devices permitted per chain, noOF futzing with termination or ID numbers. Firewire is good for more thanF digital video. It is perfect as an connection to a high capacity, high performance storage subsystem.   Glen   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:24:53 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>-) Subject: Re: Firewire Support for OpenVMS , Message-ID: <8meqln$cnp0$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  + There are no Firewire plans that I know of.   K There are plans for USB for low-speed devices, and the next revision of USB@L hardware promises to up the speed.  It is likely that you will see USB-basedA storage devices -- especially in the area of floppy replacements.c  < For storage interconnect, FibreChannel is what we are doing.  G Of course, plans are always subject to change if there are technical or  business reasons to do so...  F mccrobie@my-deja.com wrote in message <8maqa9$vhk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...B >I've heard very faint rumors that someone either inside Compaq orA >outside may have had interest in developing Firewire drivers forn? >OpenVMS.  If you're reading this, I'd appreciate a non-binding  >confirmation. >bF >Has anyone heard of Firewire support in any OpenVMS futures seminars? >eA >I think it might be interesting to develop a Firewire driver fortH >OpenVMS.  Of course, Serial Bus Protocol-2 is a necessary part as would@ >be some type of isochronous application library...  It might be@ >interesting to support digital camcorders/cameras, etc. also... >,B >Has anyone given Firewire support for OpenVMS more than a passing	 >thought?e >o >Thanks, >t >Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **)  >e >i' >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/n >Before you buy.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 17:16:39 +0200n* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)1 Subject: Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alphat* Message-ID: <398ade57$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  m In article <8melr0$k8s$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>, "John L Ferguson" <John.L.Ferguson@compaq.com> writes: I >Compaq is pleased to provide the GTK+ for OpenVMS Alpha, an open source,=> >free software library for creating graphical user interfaces. >oJ >See The GIMP Toolkit Home Page, http://www.gtk.org/, for more information >about GTK+. > M >GTK+ Version 1.2.8 for OpenVMS Alpha is an unofficial, interim port of GTK+.lJ >Our goal is to merge the custom OpenVMS changes into the GTK+ Version 1.3 >development stream. >sI >The GTK+ for OpenVMS kit includes a snapshot of the GTK+ 1.2.8 code withWI >OpenVMS-specific modifications and tools to build GTK+ on OpenVMS Alpha.   # Praise the folks at Q. Many thanks.c  ' To all: Now on to porting the games ;-)    -- H< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888r< FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:59:22 -04004 From: "John L Ferguson" <John.L.Ferguson@compaq.com>- Subject: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha-6 Message-ID: <8melr0$k8s$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  H Compaq is pleased to provide the GTK+ for OpenVMS Alpha, an open source,= free software library for creating graphical user interfaces.p  I See The GIMP Toolkit Home Page, http://www.gtk.org/, for more informationi about GTK+.   L GTK+ Version 1.2.8 for OpenVMS Alpha is an unofficial, interim port of GTK+.I Our goal is to merge the custom OpenVMS changes into the GTK+ Version 1.3i development stream.   H The GTK+ for OpenVMS kit includes a snapshot of the GTK+ 1.2.8 code withH OpenVMS-specific modifications and tools to build GTK+ on OpenVMS Alpha.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 09:17:28 -0700) From: "Yakov Lipkin" <yakovl@rmortho.com>y Subject: Re: Help!1 Message-ID: <b1Ci5.17$lc4.12718@news.pacbell.net>s  ' Sank  to everyone. I did restore drive.   
         YakovI   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 18:34:26 +0200 * From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER), Subject: Re: I NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS...* Message-ID: <398af092$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  d In article <8meqrl$co96$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:. >The freeware XV application should work fine.  $ Nitpicking: XV is shareware since V3   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888-< FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:28:06 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>w, Subject: Re: I NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS..., Message-ID: <8meqrl$co96$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  - The freeware XV application should work fine.r  . Jeff - Coachella Valley Water wrote in message# <3988565F.3583CF1A@netscape.net>...>G >Does anyone know of a .jpg viewer that will run on Open VMS 6.2 on VAXnE >400 Model 90 Workstations. I only have a Fortran Compiler so I can't  >rebuildH >a C program. It has to be a .exe that will just run or a Fortran module >that I can link.p >l >Thanks. >o( >Please e-mail to: cvwdmail@netscape.net >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 05:58:24 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?( Message-ID: <4Ysi5.451$XL5.10174@insync>  6 David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@earthlink.net) wrote: : Jerry Leslie wrote:h : > 4 : > NewsReader (NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com) wrote:L : > : There is a WindowsNT replacement; I forget the name. I think it in the : > : OpenVMS kit. : > K : >  http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/hubs/servers/software/servr-mn.htmly@ : >  Access Server Manager for Windows NT (Intel) and Windows 95 :  : Now for the killer question: : G : How does one use either clearVISN or ASM from within an openVMS batchs : job like you can with TSM? : F : Guess the folks that need to will be keeping TSM around for a while, : huh? :   J There's a plot from One Microsoft Way to subvert VMS, unix, OS/400,    :-)J by requiring that their system management functions be performed from  :-)J Wintel Cartel boxes. First their system management, then printing,     :-)J then software development tools...                                     :-)    / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.neti;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalidd2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 05:59:29 GMTt4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?( Message-ID: <5Zsi5.452$XL5.10174@insync>  ! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:! : , : TSM still works as long as you have a VAX. :   : Perhaps you're thinking of TSCON. TSM works fine on ALPHAs  / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net,;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid.2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:37:50 +0100 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>( Subject: RE: Is there a TSM replacement?L Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240111EB4@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J TSM is still working here under Alpha VMS 7.1 . If you already have TSM it! should continue to work I guess. o  L Perhaps the old distribution kit would still work if you're able to overrideJ the system version checks and even that may be unnecessary if the check is for being GE some value.   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 11:47:10 +0200i* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?* Message-ID: <398a911e$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  [ In article <39895C12.53D3FCC0@uiowa.edu>, "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> writes:sG >I have some older terminal servers, not all are Digital products, thatmF >I have always managed with the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) product. >eH >I just discovered that TSM is no longer a licensed product in the EDU's5 >CSLG package. :(  It is listed as a retired product.    Yes, it's Freeware now.r  F >I suspect a new product long ago came along to manage these LAT-basedE >terminal servers and DEC Hub devices but I did not pay attention. :)f  = As there are no new LAT based Term Servers, this is unlikely.i  G >Does anyone know what (if any) replacement management product I should  >be using is called?  J We use SERMON found on a (german ?) DECUS tape many many years ago and didK change the source a lot (eg. to not crash the system with promiscous mode).i  N But I think, you should get TSM (with a PAK) from the VMS freeware CD/webpage.   -- f< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 07:51:59 -0400d, From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>( Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement?> Message-ID: <hshubs-2EF999.07515904082000@news.mindspring.com>  B In article <398a911e$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net wrote:   >Yes, it's Freeware now.  3 So it's on the Freeware CD-ROM?  I'm gonna go look.    -- u Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adept    ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:49:56 GMT/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>n2 Subject: Re: Is there a TSM replacement? [Summary]( Message-ID: <398A83B4.342DB9F@uiowa.edu>  G I've gotten lots of responses in e-mail and in the group, but I thoughto  I would followup with a summary.  H In my case, the CSLG PAK is what I was missing.  TSM itself still workedD on my VAX and Alpha, v5.5-2, v6.2 and v7.x nodes.  For some of theseG retired products, Compaq will issue a 'perpetual' license PAK.  Contact ( "Linda.M.Clark <at> Compaq.com" for one.  B It also turns out TSM is now 'freeware' from Compaq.  The detailed
 reference is:c  / http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/servers/tsm/y  F There is also a WinDoze application to manage them now too.  I believe itG too is free.  Access Server Manager (ASM) and a reference for it can be  found here:   F http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/hubs/servers/software/servr-mn.html  E Compaq does still have a managment product, but it does not work withhH older 3rd-party LAT terminal servers like those made by Lantronix (in myF case).  This is for the DECServer/DECHub family of products, DECServer4 Network Access Software (DNAS).  See this reference:  ( http://www.networks.digital.com/dr/dnas/  G Thanks to all that helped me locate the needed pieces.  I've got accessxF back to my terminal servers directly from OpenVMS (my preference), but5 I can now also manage them from my Win95 desktop too.t   Regards, Rick -- rH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:51:35 +0100 2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk>? Subject: Re: mgftp 2.6-2 client, Win NT ftp server 4.0 problemso. Message-ID: <398ACA67.6FF0C894@CCAgroup.co.uk>   David Mathog wrote:nM > I have not seen it.  Moreover, I can't repeat it.  We have WAR-FTPD running L > on an NT box and when MGFTP sends "del filename" it really does delete the/ > file and it leaves no "ghost" entries behind.- > ! > Which FTP server are you using?+  F It's not at my company, so I can't telnet or anything, but my opposite number gave me this info:u  H "We are just using the Internet Information Server FTP facility provided asD  standard with NT Server (Version 4.0). Before we get too far we are going F  to try issuing a new directory under the same account details and see if#  this resolves it (I am doubtful)."   D A couple more points: (1) I can delete a file I've created, so maybeH there are protection problems I can't see with ftp. (2) "quote DELE" hasF worked where "delete" has failed (only on one remotely created file soD far). The only visible difference is that "quote DELE" doesn't do an NLST first.   @ I'm away next week, so I won't be responding to queries; and I'dG appreciate any advice via email, as I won't be able to keep up with they list for a week.  
 Thanks, Chrisi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 05:50:30 GMTt( From: Rainer Giese <giese_r@my-deja.com>( Subject: Re: NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS.) Message-ID: <8mdlj6$3fa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   B Have a look at XLI from the Freeware-CD. A lot of view parameters,- Alpha- and VAX-Version, works faster than XV.V    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 12:35:48 +0000 $ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk& Subject: Odd (to me) backup results.../ Message-ID: <00256931.00454B11.00@quegw01.btyp>    cc:  bcc:= Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazad   Odd (to me) backup results...@  	 Dear all,a  " I have gone through the following;   (Alpha 8400, OpenVMS 7.1-2)u   $ mount/for mkb5002 %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, 0694YP mounted on _ADEVE$MKB500:& $ backup/lis mkb500:ora_db_1_1.bck/sav Listing of save set(s)  ! Save set:          ORA_DB_1_1.BCK  Written by:        MEDIA_BKP" UIC:               [000020,000002]* Date:              16-MAR-2000 18:00:12.66P Command:           BACKUP/JOURNAL/IGNORE=INTERLOCK/FAST _DSA101:/IMAGE ADEVE$MKBP 500:ORA_DB_1_1.BCK/NOREWIND/LABEL=(0694YP,0689YP,ERROR)/SAVE/NOCRC/BLOCK=65024/N, ORECORD/GROUP_SIZE=0/MEDIA_FORMAT=COMPACTION+ Operating system:  OpenVMS AXP version V7.1e BACKUP version:    V6.2t CPU ID register:   80000000  Node name:         _ADEVE::T! Written on:        _ADEVE$MKB500:  Block size:        65024 Buffer count:      5466s   Image save of volume set Number of volumes: 1   Volume attributese Structure level:   2 Label:             ORA_DB_1, Owner:" Owner UIC:         [000001,000004]* Creation date:     27-AUG-1999 21:00:31.19 Total blocks:      8378028 Access count:      3 Cluster size:      9$ Data check:        No Read, No Write Extension size:    5< File protection:   System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World: Maximum files:     418901rB Volume protection: System:RWCD, Owner:RWCD, Group:RWCD, World:RWCD Windows:           7  P [000000]000000.DIR;1                                        1  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]BACKUP.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]BADBLK.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]BADLOG.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]BITMAP.SYS;1                                      229  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]CONTIN.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]CORIMG.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1                                      162  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]ORACLE.DIR;1                                        1  28-AUG-1999 11:51P [ORACLE]OSDP1_DBFILES.DIR;1                                 1  28-AUG-1999 11:51P [ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;2                     1890  26-JAN-2000 11:13P [ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;1                     1890  28-AUG-1999 12:01P [ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RBSEG_LARGE_01.DBF;1      2000004  17-SEP-1999 10:52P [ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RSEG_01.DBF;1             1280004  28-AUG-1999 12:16P [000000]SECURITY.SYS;1                                      1  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]VOLSET.SYS;1                                        0  27-AUG-1999 21:00P [000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;2                                   0  16-MAR-2000 18:00P [000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;1                                   0  25-JAN-2000 01:48  ! Total of 18 files, 3284183 blockss End of save set     E $ backup/image/log/ignore=label mkb500:ora_db_1_1.bck/sav $75$dke104:w: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]000000.DIR;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]BACKUP.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]CONTIN.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]CORIMG.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]ORACLE.DIR;1A %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[ORACLE]OSDP1_DBFILES.DIR;1oJ %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;2J %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;1 %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created; $75$DKE104:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RBSEG_LARGE_01.DBF;1fO %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RSEG_01.DBF;1 < %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]SECURITY.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]VOLSET.SYS;1? %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;2 ? %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DKE104:[000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;1-   $ dir disk$ora_db_1:[*...]    Directory DISK$ORA_DB_1:[ORACLE]   OSDP1_DBFILES.DIR;1T   Total of 1 file.  . Directory DISK$ORA_DB_1:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]  O OSDP1_02.CTL;1      OSDP1_RBSEG_LARGE_01.DBF;1              OSDP1_RSEG_01.DBF;1q   Total of 3 files.o  ! Directory DISK$ORA_DB_1:[SYSLOST]s   OSDP1_02.CTL;2   Total of 1 file.  & Grand total of 3 directories, 5 files.    O So, the area of worry is the fact that version 2 of the control file is gettinglN placed in SYSLOST, whereas I am assured that this has not been the case in theO past - in fact it couldn't have been, otherwise the database wouldn't have evergJ come up after a restore. This behaviour doesn't appear to replicate itself
 elsewhere.  6 Can anyone give me any idea why this may be happening?   Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow Pagesi     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beL confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has beenP addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce, distribute or use this transmission.  L Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee is notH intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received thisF transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.  
 Thank you.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:56:31 +0000g$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Odd (to me) backup results.../ Message-ID: <00256931.004CAE75.00@quegw01.btyp>-  > --0__=Ocj2pWEM2IP0Xq9ijc0qDM5R9tIgQBMKHlnzrTrhQweN9XNARcle7w2L* Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inlinei  = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazao  N Thanks Paul, I suspect that the original writer of the backup schedule commandB procedure felt that 'performance' was the important factor here...  J I have since tried something else - well, not something else exactly, but;  E $ backup/image/log/ignore=label mkb500:ora_db_1_1.bck/sav $75$dua116: : %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]000000.DIR;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]BACKUP.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]CONTIN.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]CORIMG.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]ORACLE.DIR;1A %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[ORACLE]OSDP1_DBFILES.DIR;1-J %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;2J %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_02.CTL;1 %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created; $75$DUA116:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RBSEG_LARGE_01.DBF;1KO %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]OSDP1_RSEG_01.DBF;1o< %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]SECURITY.SYS;1: %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]VOLSET.SYS;1? %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;2 ? %BACKUP-S-CREATED, created $75$DUA116:[000000]__Z_EOV_Z__.MRK;1  $ dism/nounl $75$dua116: $ mount/over=id $75$dua116:1; %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, ORA_DB_1 mounted on _$75$DUA116: (HSD101)s $ dir $75$dua116:[*...]V   Directory $75$DUA116:[ORACLE]W   OSDP1_DBFILES.DIR;1C   Total of 1 file.  + Directory $75$DUA116:[ORACLE.OSDP1_DBFILES]4  B OSDP1_02.CTL;2      OSDP1_02.CTL;1      OSDP1_RBSEG_LARGE_01.DBF;1 OSDP1_RSEG_01.DBF;1R   Total of 4 files.E  & Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.  M So, the only difference being the controllers and disks - ie hardware - but IhJ don't see how that could cause this problem. The original restore was to aK device attached to an ESA10000 behind HSZ70s, whereas the other disk (whichM  worked) is attached to an HSD30.   I have to admit I am stumped.r   Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow Pagesu        9 Paul Sture <paul.sture@ubs.com> on 04/08/2000 12:41:10 PMP  # To:        Steve Spires/YellowPages  cc:        paul@sture.chE From:      Paul Sture <paul.sture@ubs.com>, 4 August 2000, 12:41 p.m.9  ! Re: Odd (to me) backup results...       > --0__=Ocj2pWEM2IP0Xq9ijc0qDM5R9tIgQBMKHlnzrTrhQweN9XNARcle7w2L, Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inlinee! Content-transfer-encoding: base64e    L DQpTdGV2ZS5TcGlyZXNAeWVsbG93cGFnZXMuY28udWsgd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+IGNjOg0KPiBiY2M6L DQo+IENvbnRhY3Q6ICAgVGVsOiAzMDYzICAtICBWU1NHLCAxc3QgRmxvb3IsIEJyaWRnZSBTdHJlL ZXQgUGxhemENCj4NCj4gT2RkICh0byBtZSkgYmFja3VwIHJlc3VsdHMuLi4NCj4NCj4gRGVhciBhL bGwsDQo+DQo+IEkgaGF2ZSBnb25lIHRocm91Z2ggdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZzsNCj4NCj4gKEFscGhhL IDg0MDAsIE9wZW5WTVMgNy4xLTIpDQo+DQo+ICQgbW91bnQvZm9yIG1rYjUwMA0KPiAlTU9VTlQtL SS1NT1VOVEVELCAwNjk0WVAgbW91bnRlZCBvbiBfQURFVkUkTUtCNTAwOg0KPiAkIGJhY2t1cC9sL aXMgbWtiNTAwOm9yYV9kYl8xXzEuYmNrL3Nhdg0KPiBMaXN0aW5nIG9mIHNhdmUgc2V0KHMpDQo+L DQo+IFNhdmUgc2V0OiAgICAgICAgICBPUkFfREJfMV8xLkJDSw0KPiBXcml0dGVuIGJ5OiAgICAgL ICAgTUVESUFfQktQDQo+IFVJQzogICAgICAgICAgICAgICBbMDAwMDIwLDAwMDAwMl0NCj4gRGF0L ZTogICAgICAgICAgICAgIDE2LU1BUi0yMDAwIDE4OjAwOjEyLjY2DQo+IENvbW1hbmQ6ICAgICAgL ICAgICBCQUNLVVAvSk9VUk5BTC9JR05PUkU9SU5URVJMT0NLL0ZBU1QgX0RTQTEwMTovSU1BR0UNL CkFERVZFJE1LQg0KPg0KNTAwOk9SQV9EQl8xXzEuQkNLL05PUkVXSU5EL0xBQkVMPSgwNjk0WVAsL MDY4OVlQLEVSUk9SKS9TQVZFL05PQ1JDL0JMT0NLPTY1MDI0L04NCj4gT1JFQ09SRC9HUk9VUF9TL SVpFPTAvTUVESUFfRk9STUFUPUNPTVBBQ1RJT04NCj4gT3BlcmF0aW5nIHN5c3RlbTogIE9wZW5WL TVMgQVhQIHZlcnNpb24gVjcuMQ0KPiBCQUNLVVAgdmVyc2lvbjogICAgVjYuMg0KPiBDUFUgSUQgL cmVnaXN0ZXI6ICAgODAwMDAwMDANCj4gTm9kZSBuYW1lOiAgICAgICAgIF9BREVWRTo6DQo+IFdyL aXR0ZW4gb246ICAgICAgICBfQURFVkUkTUtCNTAwOg0KPiBCbG9jayBzaXplOiAgICAgICAgNjUwL MjQNCj4gQnVmZmVyIGNvdW50OiAgICAgIDU0NjYNCj4NCj4gSW1hZ2Ugc2F2ZSBvZiB2b2x1bWUgL c2V0DQo+IE51bWJlciBvZiB2b2x1bWVzOiAxDQo+DQo+IFZvbHVtZSBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzDQo+IFN0L cnVjdHVyZSBsZXZlbDogICAyDQo+IExhYmVsOiAgICAgICAgICAgICBPUkFfREJfMQ0KPiBPd25lL cjoNCj4gT3duZXIgVUlDOiAgICAgICAgIFswMDAwMDEsMDAwMDA0XQ0KPiBDcmVhdGlvbiBkYXRlL OiAgICAgMjctQVVHLTE5OTkgMjE6MDA6MzEuMTkNCj4gVG90YWwgYmxvY2tzOiAgICAgIDgzNzgwL MjgNCj4gQWNjZXNzIGNvdW50OiAgICAgIDMNCj4gQ2x1c3RlciBzaXplOiAgICAgIDkNCj4gRGF0L YSBjaGVjazogICAgICAgIE5vIFJlYWQsIE5vIFdyaXRlDQo+IEV4dGVuc2lvbiBzaXplOiAgICA1L DQo+IEZpbGUgcHJvdGVjdGlvbjogICBTeXN0ZW06UldFRCwgT3duZXI6UldFRCwgR3JvdXA6UkUsL IFdvcmxkOg0KPiBNYXhpbXVtIGZpbGVzOiAgICAgNDE4OTAxDQo+IFZvbHVtZSBwcm90ZWN0aW9uL OiBTeXN0ZW06UldDRCwgT3duZXI6UldDRCwgR3JvdXA6UldDRCwgV29ybGQ6UldDRA0KPiBXaW5kL b3dzOiAgICAgICAgICAgNw0KPg0KPiBbMDAwMDAwXTAwMDAwMC5ESVI7MSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxICAyNy1BVUctMTk5OQ0KMjE6MDANCj4gWzAwMDAwL MF1CQUNLVVAuU1lTOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgMCAgL MjctQVVHLTE5OTkNCjIxOjAwDQo+IFswMDAwMDBdQkFEQkxLLlNZUzsxICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDAgIDI3LUFVRy0xOTk5DQoyMTowMA0KPiBbMDAwMDAwL XUJBRExPRy5TWVM7MSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAwICAyL Ny1BVUctMTk5OQ0KMjE6MDANCj4gWzAwMDAwMF1CSVRNQVAuU1lTOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDIyOSAgMjctQVVHLTE5OTkNCjIxOjAwDQo+IFswMDAwMDBdL Q09OVElOLlNZUzsxICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDAgIDI3L LUFVRy0xOTk5DQoyMTowMA0KPiBbMDAwMDAwXUNPUklNRy5TWVM7MSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAwICAyNy1BVUctMTk5OQ0KMjE6MDANCj4gWzAwMDAwMF1JL TkRFWEYuU1lTOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDE2MiAgMjctL QVVHLTE5OTkNCjIxOjAwDQo+IFswMDAwMDBdT1JBQ0xFLkRJUjsxICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDEgIDI4LUFVRy0xOTk5DQoxMTo1MQ0KPiBbT1JBQ0xFXU9TL RFAxX0RCRklMRVMuRElSOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxICAyOC1BL VUctMTk5OQ0KMTE6NTENCj4gW09SQUNMRS5PU0RQMV9EQkZJTEVTXU9TRFAxXzAyLkNUTDsyICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgMTg5MCAgMjYtSkFOLTIwMDANCjExOjEzDQo+IFtPUkFDTEUuT1NEL UDFfREJGSUxFU11PU0RQMV8wMi5DVEw7MSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDE4OTAgIDI4LUFVL Ry0xOTk5DQoxMjowMQ0KPiBbT1JBQ0xFLk9TRFAxX0RCRklMRVNdT1NEUDFfUkJTRUdfTEFSR0VfL MDEuREJGOzEgICAgICAyMDAwMDA0ICAxNy1TRVAtMTk5OQ0KMTA6NTINCj4gW09SQUNMRS5PU0RQL MV9EQkZJTEVTXU9TRFAxX1JTRUdfMDEuREJGOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgMTI4MDAwNCAgMjgtQVVHL LTE5OTkNCjEyOjE2DQo+IFswMDAwMDBdU0VDVVJJVFkuU1lTOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDEgIDI3LUFVRy0xOTk5DQoyMTowMA0KPiBbMDAwMDAwXVZPTFNFL VC5TWVM7MSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAwICAyNy1BVUctL MTk5OQ0KMjE6MDANCj4gWzAwMDAwMF1fX1pfRU9WX1pfXy5NUks7MiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgL ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgMCAgMTYtTUFSLTIwMDANCjE4OjAwDQo+IFswMDAwMDBdX19aX0VPL Vl9aX18uTVJLOzEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDAgIDI1LUpBTi0yL MDAwDQowMTo0OA0KPg0KPiBUb3RhbCBvZiAxOCBmaWxlcywgMzI4NDE4MyBibG9ja3MNCj4gRW5kL IG9mIHNhdmUgc2V0DQo+DQo+ICQgYmFja3VwL2ltYWdlL2xvZy9pZ25vcmU9bGFiZWwgbWtiNTAwL Om9yYV9kYl8xXzEuYmNrL3NhdiAkNzUkZGtlMTA0Og0KPiAlQkFDS1VQLVMtQ1JFQVRFRCwgY3JlL YXRlZCAkNzUkREtFMTA0OlswMDAwMDBdMDAwMDAwLkRJUjsxDQo+ICVCQUNLVVAtUy1DUkVBVEVEL LCBjcmVhdGVkICQ3NSRES0UxMDQ6WzAwMDAwMF1CQUNLVVAuU1lTOzENCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSL RUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbMDAwMDAwXUNPTlRJTi5TWVM7MQ0KPiAlQkFDS1VQL LVMtQ1JFQVRFRCwgY3JlYXRlZCAkNzUkREtFMTA0OlswMDAwMDBdQ09SSU1HLlNZUzsxDQo+ICVCL QUNLVVAtUy1DUkVBVEVELCBjcmVhdGVkICQ3NSRES0UxMDQ6WzAwMDAwMF1PUkFDTEUuRElSOzENL Cj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbT1JBQ0xFXU9TRFAxX0RCL RklMRVMuRElSOzENCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbT1JBL Q0xFLk9TRFAxX0RCRklMRVNdT1NEUDFfMDIuQ1RMOzINCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyL ZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbT1JBQ0xFLk9TRFAxX0RCRklMRVNdT1NEUDFfMDIuQ1RMOzENCj4gL JUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQNCj4gJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbT1JBQ0xFLk9TRFAxX0RCL RklMRVNdT1NEUDFfUkJTRUdfTEFSR0VfMDEuREJGOzENCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyL ZWF0ZWQNCiQ3NSRES0UxMDQ6W09SQUNMRS5PU0RQMV9EQkZJTEVTXU9TRFAxX1JTRUdfMDEuREJGL OzENCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbMDAwMDAwXVNFQ1VSL SVRZLlNZUzsxDQo+ICVCQUNLVVAtUy1DUkVBVEVELCBjcmVhdGVkICQ3NSRES0UxMDQ6WzAwMDAwL MF1WT0xTRVQuU1lTOzENCj4gJUJBQ0tVUC1TLUNSRUFURUQsIGNyZWF0ZWQgJDc1JERLRTEwNDpbL MDAwMDAwXV9fWl9FT1ZfWl9fLk1SSzsyDQo+ICVCQUNLVVAtUy1DUkVBVEVELCBjcmVhdGVkICQ3L NSRES0UxMDQ6WzAwMDAwMF1fX1pfRU9WX1pfXy5NUks7MQ0KPg0KPiAkIGRpciBkaXNrJG9yYV9kL Yl8xOlsqLi4uXQ0KPg0KPiBEaXJlY3RvcnkgRElTSyRPUkFfREJfMTpbT1JBQ0xFXQ0KPg0KPiBPL U0RQMV9EQkZJTEVTLkRJUjsxDQo+DQo+IFRvdGFsIG9mIDEgZmlsZS4NCj4NCj4gRGlyZWN0b3J5L IERJU0skT1JBX0RCXzE6W09SQUNMRS5PU0RQMV9EQkZJTEVTXQ0KPg0KPiBPU0RQMV8wMi5DVEw7L MSAgICAgIE9TRFAxX1JCU0VHX0xBUkdFXzAxLkRCRjsxDQpPU0RQMV9SU0VHXzAxLkRCRjsxDQo+L DQo+IFRvdGFsIG9mIDMgZmlsZXMuDQo+DQo+IERpcmVjdG9yeSBESVNLJE9SQV9EQl8xOltTWVNML T1NUXQ0KPg0KPiBPU0RQMV8wMi5DVEw7Mg0KPg0KPiBUb3RhbCBvZiAxIGZpbGUuDQo+DQo+IEdyL YW5kIHRvdGFsIG9mIDMgZGlyZWN0b3JpZXMsIDUgZmlsZXMuDQo+DQo+IFNvLCB0aGUgYXJlYSBvL ZiB3b3JyeSBpcyB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IHZlcnNpb24gMiBvZiB0aGUgY29udHJvbCBmaWxlIGlzL DQpnZXR0aW5nDQo+IHBsYWNlZCBpbiBTWVNMT1NULCB3aGVyZWFzIEkgYW0gYXNzdXJlZCB0aGF0L IHRoaXMgaGFzIG5vdCBiZWVuIHRoZSBjYXNlIGluIHRoZQ0KPiBwYXN0IC0gaW4gZmFjdCBpdCBjL b3VsZG4ndCBoYXZlIGJlZW4sIG90aGVyd2lzZSB0aGUgZGF0YWJhc2Ugd291bGRuJ3QgaGF2ZQ0KL ZXZlcg0KPiBjb21lIHVwIGFmdGVyIGEgcmVzdG9yZS4gVGhpcyBiZWhhdmlvdXIgZG9lc24ndCBhL cHBlYXIgdG8gcmVwbGljYXRlIGl0c2VsZg0KPiBlbHNld2hlcmUuDQo+DQo+IENhbiBhbnlvbmUgL Z2l2ZSBtZSBhbnkgaWRlYSB3aHkgdGhpcyBtYXkgYmUgaGFwcGVuaW5nPw0KPg0KSSBjYW4ndCBzL YXkgSSd2ZSBldmVyIHNlZW4gdGhpcyBiZWhhdmlvdXIsIHNvIEkgZ28gZm9yIHdpbGQgc3BlY3VsL YXRpb24NCmluc3RlYWQuDQoNCkFmdGVyIHJlY2VudCBwb3N0cyBjb25jZXJuaW5nIHRoZSBiZWhhL dmlvdXIgb2YgL0FMSUFTIG9yIC9OT0FMSUFTLCB0aGF0DQpjb3VsZCBiZSBvbmUgc3VzcGVjdCAoL cHJvdmlkZWQgYW4gYWxpYXMgaGFkIHNvbWVob3cgY3JlcHQgb250byB0aGUNCm9yaWdpbmFsIGRpL c2spLg0KDQpJIGRvIHN1c3BlY3QgeW91ciBzdXBwcmVzc2lvbiBvZiBDUkMgY2hlY2tpbmcgaW4gL dGhlIGJhY2t1cCBjb21tYW5kLiBJDQp3b3VsZCBpbWFnaW5lIHRoYXQgaWYgYW4gZXJyb3Igb2NjL dXJyZWQgKGVpdGhlciBvbiB0aGUgaW5pdGlhbCBzYXZlIG9yDQpzdWJzZXF1ZW50IHJlc3RvcmUpL LCBzYXkgaW4gdGhlIGRpcmVjdG9yeSBuYW1lIG9mIHRoYXQgZmlsZSwgdGhlbiBiYWNrdXANCm1pL Z2h0IGNvbmNlaXZhYmx5IHB1dCBpdCBpbnRvIHtTWVNMT1NUXS4NCg0KLS0NClBhdWwgU3R1cmUN Clr8cmljaA0K@ --0__=Ocj2pWEM2IP0Xq9ijc0qDM5R9tIgQBMKHlnzrTrhQweN9XNARcle7w2L--   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 13:41:17 GMTV2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)) Subject: OpenVMS V7.3 EFT1/SDK1, Freewarea6 Message-ID: <8meh5t$jes$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  C   The OpenVMS V7.3 Field Test Software Developer's Kit (SDK) is nowe   available.    =     Part: QA-MT3AD-H8    Call: 1-800-ATCOMPAQ (North America)4  G   This kit is useful for those customers and hobbyists wishing to work  F   with or to test applications with the current external baselevel of    the next OpenVMS release.V  F   EFT1/SDK1 does NOT contain tested support for the AlphaServer GS80, H   AlphaServer GS160, and AlphaServer GS320 series systems, that testing G   and support will be integrated into the EFT2/SDK2 release of the V7.3MC   release, with the shipment of EFT2/SDK2 expected in October 2000.)  G   Followups to this posting have been set to the SDK support newsgroup:         vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest  G   I am also now soliciting updates and new submissions for the OpenVMS OK   Freeware (probably to be the Freeware V5 release).  For OpenVMS Freeware =.   submission information, please see the URL:   :     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/cd.html  7   Attached is the OpenVMS V7.3 SDK announcement letter.   N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com     	--t   Dear Customer,  I Thank you for your interest in the OpenVMS Version 7.3 Software Developer,K Kit (SDK) Program.   We feel that this program has been very successful in 2: the past, and we hope that you will decide to participate.  E The OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT1 SDK will be available in July 2000 as aniG orderable kit through our DECdirect channel.  You can order the kit by aH ordering part number QA-MT3AD-H8 at a cost of $39.95.   Once the kit is E available, it will be as simple as calling 1-800-ATCOMPAQ.  Business  D Partners can order it on the Web through the Compaq Business Link at www.businesslink.compaq.com.  I The V7.3-EFT1 SDK will contain early releases of the OpenVMS V7.3 VAX and J Alpha operating systems, as well as DECwindows and network products.  The 2 SDK will also contain many new features including:  B o Write Bitmap and Shadow Minicopy -- Performance and availability&   enhancements to Shadowing full copy.  ) o Switched LAN as a cluster interconnect:0  A   - Support for Gigabit Ethernet and ATM as full switched clusterU     interconnects.  B   - Allows all LAN devices to participate in load distribution of      cluster traffic.  F o Lock Manager 2000 (Alpha only) -- Enhancements that improve cluster G   and application performance, SMP system performance, and scalability     and application availability.L  K o Extended File Cache (XFC) Version 1.0 support (Alpha only) -- ReplacementC<   for VIOC.  Extends the capabilities of cluster file cache.  I o RMS Locking -- Reduces global buffer bucket locks by removing locks for.F   read operations.  Also allows RMS to read a record without taking a    record lock.  C o Kerberos Version 5 Security Client (Alpha only) -- Allows OpenVMS0D   applications to communicate and authenticate with NT5 domains and    most UNIX platforms.  C o Clusterwide Intrusion Detection -- Expands the current individual0D   node-base intrusion detection in OpenVMS today to be cluster-wide    and cluster aware.  E o QIO Server (Alpha only) -- Provides improved performance over MSCP,eF   improved scaling and system management control, reduced maintenance D   cost, and a public device driver interface to support third party    driver writers.   F o SCSI Fastpath (Alpha only) -- Improves SCSI performance and scaling    in SMP systems.E  
 o And more.  G    J The OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT2 SDK is presently scheduled to be available inK September/October  2000.  Customers can choose to either purchase both the eL OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT1 SDK and the OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT2 SDK at a cost # of $39.95 each, or just select one.S  E Support for the SDK program will continue to be through the followingS Internet newsgroup:.  "       vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest  I Please see the OpenVMS Web Page www.openvms.compaq.com  in late June 2000d; timeframe for additional information for ordering this kit.d  K Your involvement and support have been very important to the success of the]H overall SDK Program.  We hope that you will continue to support Version ' 7.3-EFT1 as this program moves forward.   
 Sincerely,   OpenVMS Product Management   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:05:00 -0700_? From: Mike Price <mike.priceNOmiSPAM@littlewoods.co.uk.invalid> 2 Subject: Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY9 Message-ID: <07e4e2e4.4edcc312@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com>a  ? As  you can see from the early posts the only performance issue = that the Delay and NODELAY parameter seems to address is when 7 the pathworks systems is SENDING to VMS. I have seen noi9 performance changes when the PC is receiving. In fact theh; performance I have seen for large files is about as good as  canexpect from our network     Mike  
 Mike Price7 All entries are personal opinion and do not necessarily  represent those of my employer.v8 Any resemblence they have to reality may be coincidental  ; -----------------------------------------------------------r  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.t Up to 100 minutes free!  http://www.keen.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 14:26:41 GMTb5 From: "Larry D Bohan, Jr" <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com>a2 Subject: Re: Patwhorks Performance and TCP NODELAY2 Message-ID: <is+KOU7kYTHiAUbYjHLHHt4aMD4r@4ax.com>  A On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:16:46 GMT, Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com>n wrote:  A >There have been several threads here regarding the abysmal write = >performance of Pathworks Advanced Server on a high speed LANo8 >and I found this to be the case on installing recently. >s1 >After an emailed suggestion by Kerry Main to try_ >TCPIP>SET PROTOCOL TCP/NODELAYK >zB >the peformance improved *tenfold* and actually beat the NT serverG >I was comparing it to (additionally I set the Pathworks cache to 64MB)r >eH >Question: Should this actually be the default setting used by PathworksD >when opening TCP/IP connections? If not why not? Also what negative= >effects might I risk by setting this on a system wide basis?l >oC >Anyone else want to try this and see if you also see an incredible5 >performance leap?  :  Sometimes the blame for poor performance belongs to MSFT.  0F  below is a tcpdump of traffic betw a PW Advanced Server 7.x/tcpip5.0a  and the MSDEV VC++ IDE.  6  the following tcpdumps seen below are merely for the C  string "#include". lotsa  209 byte records, flying back && forth, 1.  with (apparently) 2 bytes of payload/data ...  3  The MSDEV VC++ IDE, when using network file i/o,  R;  appears to use 2-byte reads. When nearly everything other 2A  NT/win32 app appears to use something  more reasonable, like 4K._  C/  I'd also verified this w/ an NT tool, FILEMON,C (http://www.sysinternals.com)R;  a tool similar (in a fashion) to $SET WATCH/CLASS=.. FILE.S  :  Across, say a 56k FR link, the performance is atrocious; <  80-90s to open a 50 block file (~1200 lines) on a PW share,B  from the MSDEC VC++, vs say 20-30s for the same file via NOTEPAD.  C  fwiw, NODELAY_ACK had no noticable effect for myself in this case;0D  but, iirc, playing w/ the window sizes does help in most instances.      *         06:35:22.94   X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn 0                                 > Y.Y.Y.Y.1480: E         P 18928:18993(65) ack 12394 win 17520 (DF) (ttl 57, id 36608)l  @         4500 0069 8f00 4000 3906 0c6f c7d9 0823 E..i..@.9..o...#@         c7d9 0e4a 008b 05c8 122d 50b4 0012 a514 ...J.....-P.....@         5018 4470 6ab0 0000 0000 003d ff53 4d42 P.Dpj......=.SMB@         2e00 0000 0098 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 e057 0cff 0000 ........n..W....@         00ff ff00 0000 0002 003b 0000 0000 0000 .........;......9         0000 0000 0002 0023 69                  .......#it  #         06:35:22.94   Y.Y.Y.Y.1480  7                                 > X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn: oE         P 12394:12458(64) ack 18993 win 6762 (DF) (ttl 128, id 61152)0  @         4500 0068 eee0 4000 8006 658f c7d9 0e4a E..h..@...e....J@         c7d9 0823 05c8 008b 0012 a514 122d 50f5 ...#.........-P.@         5018 1a6a eda8 0000 0000 003c ff53 4d42 P..j.......<.SMB@         2e00 0000 0018 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 f057 0cff 0000 ........n..W....@         0023 0088 0000 0002 0002 00ff ffff ff02 .#..............8         0000 0000 0000 0000                     ........  *         06:35:23.03   X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn 0                                 > Y.Y.Y.Y.1480: E         P 18993:19058(65) ack 12458 win 17520 (DF) (ttl 57, id 36609)S  @         4500 0069 8f01 4000 3906 0c6e c7d9 0823 E..i..@.9..n...#@         c7d9 0e4a 008b 05c8 122d 50f5 0012 a554 ...J.....-P....T@         5018 4470 5fe4 0000 0000 003d ff53 4d42 P.Dp_......=.SMB@         2e00 0000 0098 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 f057 0cff 0000 ........n..W....@         00ff ff00 0000 0002 003b 0000 0000 0000 .........;......9         0000 0000 0002 006e 63                  .......ncg  #         06:35:23.03   Y.Y.Y.Y.1480 27                                 > X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn: PE         P 12458:12522(64) ack 19058 win 8192 (DF) (ttl 128, id 61408)k  @         4500 0068 efe0 4000 8006 648f c7d9 0e4a E..h..@...d....J@         c7d9 0823 05c8 008b 0012 a554 122d 5136 ...#.......T.-Q6@         5018 2000 d78f 0000 0000 003c ff53 4d42 P. ........<.SMB@         2e00 0000 0018 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 0058 0cff 0000 ........n..X....@         0023 008a 0000 0002 0002 00ff ffff ff02 .#..............8         0000 0000 0000 0000                     ........  *         06:35:23.10   X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn 0                                 > Y.Y.Y.Y.1480: E         P 19058:19123(65) ack 12522 win 17520 (DF) (ttl 57, id 36611)Q  @         4500 0069 8f03 4000 3906 0c6c c7d9 0823 E..i..@.9..l...#@         c7d9 0e4a 008b 05c8 122d 5136 0012 a594 ...J.....-Q6....@         5018 4470 3d65 0000 0000 003d ff53 4d42 P.Dp=e.....=.SMB@         2e00 0000 0098 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 0058 0cff 0000 ........n..X....@         00ff ff00 0000 0002 003b 0000 0000 0000 .........;......9         0000 0000 0002 006c 75                  .......luN  #         06:35:23.10   Y.Y.Y.Y.1480 v7                                 > X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn: gE         P 12522:12586(64) ack 19123 win 8127 (DF) (ttl 128, id 61664)i  @         4500 0068 f0e0 4000 8006 638f c7d9 0e4a E..h..@...c....J@         c7d9 0823 05c8 008b 0012 a594 122d 5177 ...#.........-Qw@         5018 1fbf c74d 0000 0000 003c ff53 4d42 P....M.....<.SMB@         2e00 0000 0018 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 1058 0cff 0000 ........n..X....@         0023 008c 0000 0002 0002 00ff ffff ff02 .#..............8         0000 0000 0000 0000                     ........  *         06:35:23.26   X.X.X.X.netbios-ssn 0                                 > Y.Y.Y.Y.1480: E         P 19123:19188(65) ack 12586 win 17520 (DF) (ttl 57, id 36612)C  @         4500 0069 8f04 4000 3906 0c6b c7d9 0823 E..i..@.9..k...#@         c7d9 0e4a 008b 05c8 122d 5177 0012 a5d4 ...J.....-Qw....@         5018 4470 3cec 0000 0000 003d ff53 4d42 P.Dp<......=.SMB@         2e00 0000 0098 0080 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................@         0000 0000 0c00 feca 6e80 1058 0cff 0000 ........n..X....@         00ff ff00 0000 0002 003b 0000 0000 0000 .........;......9         0000 0000 0002 0064 65                  .......deS   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 06:29:01 GMT6L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") Subject: Re: Quality8 Message-ID: <009EE12B.11605ACE@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  Y In article <39899567.B521805@tsoft-inc.com>, David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:k >David Mathog wrote: >> kC >> >Why? Just so your scripts will run on Linux or VMS, unmodified?T >> gM >> No, not MY scripts, but everybody elses.  And yes, unmodified, or as closeDN >> to it as possible.   Many packages I've seen come with a mishmash of sh andJ >> csh scripts - it would be nice for once to be able to actually use themK >> as supplied and not have to rewrite them into DCL.  Especially when theyCM >> are a zillion lines long and totally uncommented.  (Alternatively, a sh orgK >> csh to DCL translator would suffice - but it would probably be easier tow/ >> get the shells running than the translator.)g >> C >> >K >> >F.Y.I.: ksh (csh, bash, etc.) lacks such things as F$xxxx(). So, to me,g >> >it's really a wash.W >> GN >> Not to me.  Your argument is bogus when it comes to the utility of existingN >> code - just because a program is written in a language you detest (which isM >> basically what we're talking about here even though these are "only" shellhL >> scripts) doesn't mean that the program is not useful.  Nor should it meanL >> that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS youJ >> can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and cshM >> should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.B) >> And as such, they should be supported.w >bQ >Does this also mean that all the various Unix systems are also deficient becauseEP >they do not support DCL?  Or are we proposing a double standard here?  Yes, I'mP >aware of the third party packages that implement some of DCL on other systems. Q >Seems though that the wish here is not for third party support of Unix shells onC >VMS.V  M Y'know, David Mathog has explained where he's coming from on this repeatedly.iJ In genetics, the field that the scientists he supports work in, _all_ the J subject-specific freeware is being developed on Unix systems.  (It's beingK developed by graduate students in genetics, too, not by software engineers,0* and they know they're done when it works.)  L If the scientists he supports want to use that software, either they run it O on Unix systems or David gets to port it to VMS.  The people who wrote it couldkK care less about portability.  When the time comes to get a new computer, itbO becomes hard for David to argue in favor of the one that requires days or weeksNK of his work to make 'standard' software run right vs. the one where it justPL works.  (This is connected to the question about VMS i/o from the CRTL beingM significantly slower *for the kinds of things he's doing* than it is on Unix.V  O So: it will - to some extent - hurt the sales of VMS that it can't just pick up+L a .RPM and install the application.  It won't hurt the sales of Unix that itI doesn't run VMS software, except in those cases where only VMS will do.  C  K David's not talking about quality of engineering; he isn't saying that UnixlL systems are morally better; he's asking for what it would take for him to beG able to make the case for the next machine he buys to be a VMS machine.u   Try not to be offended by that.G   -- Alanm       >gP >In case the perception is that only Unix scripts exist, I for one have some DCL	 >scripts.+  O ===============================================================================S0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056uM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210GO ===============================================================================H   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 02:39:31 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>G Subject: Re: Quality( Message-ID: <8mdocp$cfq$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:398A036F.16D2719B@earthlink.net...j > Bill Todd wrote: > [snip] > > Now, that's a tough one. >m > Here's a tougher one:v >TG > A prominent university does a study of the role played by advertisingiF > and marketing on the corporate decision making process. Those polled$ > tell the university people, quote: >rI > "We find that advertising and marketing have little or no impact in our1J > decision making processes. In fact, we find advertising and marketing toI > be so ineffectual, that we ourselves spend millions - if not billions -i@ > every year hawking our goods and services to our {partners and > distributors|end users}."f >fH > Now, pardon my stupidity, but I find more than a little incongruity in > that statement.u >nH > So, here's the toughie: How do you propose to reconcile such a glaring > disparity?  G Don't have to.  I have no idea where you formed the impression that thevL book's observations were obtained by polling customers rather than observingF their actual behavior.  But then again I don't know where most of your misimpressions come from.0   - bill   >w > -- > David J. Dachterae > dba DJE Systemsp > http://www.djesys.com/ >t< > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/O   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:27:09 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)p Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE165.7B0BB22F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:1 >In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>, ? >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:e >>L >>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainL >>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of theL >>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theJ >>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as: >>, >>static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble) >>  { 	 >>    ...i >>  } L >>%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return 
 >>  statements >> >> ...or...C >>Q >>%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value t9 >>"mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int".n >> >> ...or...e >>M >>%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed n' >>struct", is being converted to "int".t >> >> ...or...u >>M >>%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but y* >>  occurs in a context that requires one. >> >> ...or...    >>& >>    (and this one's my all time fav) >>- >>    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};  >>......................^oP >>%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is 
 >>1 too many.r >> >A >Hmmm... >  >bash-2.04$ cat mumble.c >#include <stdio.h>c >o' >static int mumble(int a, int b, int c)d >{ >        int d = a + b + c;  >i7 >        ( void )printf( "The mumble sum is %d\n", d );p >} >p( >char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >s" >int main( int argc, char **argv ) >{5 >        mumble( (int)digits[0], (int)digits[1], 2 );  >r >        return 0; >} >bash-2.04$ gcc -Wall mumble.c  >mumble.c: In function `mumble':> >mumble.c:8: warning: control reaches end of non-void function >mumble.c: At top level:; >mumble.c:10: warning: excess elements in array initializern9 >mumble.c:10: warning: (near initialization for `digits')e >t >>I >>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"VK >>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been y. >>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >> >vE >Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC " >compiler with regard to warnings. >  >>--Q >>VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  >f >-Jordan Henderson >jordan@greenapple.com  J Too bad it wasn't used on the unix box(es) wherein this C code was whacked
 up to run.  n --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMM   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 08:50:50 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)D Subject: Re: Quality+ Message-ID: <GhqcFmCpl1RG@eisner.decus.org>g  \ In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:2 > In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,@ > Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >>L >>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainL >>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of theL >>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theJ >>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:  > < snip example of Brian using DEC C to find software defects >  = < snip example of Jordan using GCC to find software defects >0  I >>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"cK >>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been  . >>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >> > F > Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC# > compiler with regard to warnings.     ; Brian did not complain about freeware.  He complained about : C compilers on the myriad flavors of Unix.  Your statement9 that one C compiler gets it right does not contradict hisa! statement that many get it wrong.-  8 But we are not discussing what compiler Brian might use.7 We are talking about what compiler is used by those whot7 wrote the software Brian wants to port.  Given that the-6 working compiler you demonstrated has _extremely_ wide6 availability, this does not say much for the judgement6 of those who created the software Brian wants to port,7 since they chose a defective compiler when the good oneT5 was free.  I don't think I would want to use softwarea7 they wrote, since their judgement of other parts of thee  process might be equally flawed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 09:33:25 -0400 ( From: Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <398AC625.E62588DF@compaq.com>  M     I'm afraid I don't have time to read all this string but let me reply to:e  % "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrotei   >yC >   Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theaJ > DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as: >        <examples deleted>   >i > I > Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix" J > freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been. > changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >e > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa  
     Brian,  C     What version of the Compaq C compiler are you running?  Are you ?     compiling using /STAND=COMMON which is sets the compiler to,$     behave like many UNIX compilers.  F      I did not try all your examples, but the TOOMANY message has been5      a warning (not an error) since the V5.7 release.2  >     We have recently invested a lot of effort to make Compaq CH      more compatible with gcc.  If there are specific issues with CompaqF      C V6.2A that prevent it from compiling programs that gcc compilesI      please let us know.   While we will never be able to compile all gcc 4      programs, it is a goal to compile most of them.  @                                                         Ed VogelK                                                         Compaq C Engineeing    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 09:38:12 -0400 / From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)  Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8meh04$pub$1@lisa.gemair.com>  + In article <GhqcFmCpl1RG@eisner.decus.org>,l: Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote:] >In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:a3 >> In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>, A >> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:0 >>>0M >>>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brain0M >>>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of the M >>>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if the K >>>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:2 >F? >< snip example of Brian using DEC C to find software defects >7 >0> >< snip example of Jordan using GCC to find software defects > >fJ >>>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"L >>>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been / >>>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.. >>>. >> .G >> Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC $ >> compiler with regard to warnings. >  >.< >Brian did not complain about freeware.  He complained about; >C compilers on the myriad flavors of Unix.  Your statement(: >that one C compiler gets it right does not contradict his" >statement that many get it wrong. > 9 >But we are not discussing what compiler Brian might use.28 >We are talking about what compiler is used by those who8 >wrote the software Brian wants to port.  Given that the7 >working compiler you demonstrated has _extremely_ wide 7 >availability, this does not say much for the judgement07 >of those who created the software Brian wants to port, 8 >since they chose a defective compiler when the good one6 >was free.  I don't think I would want to use software8 >they wrote, since their judgement of other parts of the! >process might be equally flawed.t  7 I'm fairly certain that Brian had tools at his disposal ; to find those errors on any of the "myriad flavors of Unix"a that he might have been using.  6 The traditional Unix philosophy toward static checking6 has been to utilize a separate tool, lint, to run over3 your source to find these kinds of problems.  This 55 process had a number of advantages when the compilers04 and machines were slower.  You would run development4 cycles and then at some point, say daily or when you3 suspected errors had crept in that lint might help  4 you find, you would run lint over the code to reveal4 these to you.  Compilers and machines have gotten so5 fast that the lint capabilities have been folded into.4 the compilers as warning levels.  Still, the default4 warning level is fairly loose so as to allow the old4 style of developing with faster, but less checking,  and then -Wall(ing) later. .  2 This is not qualitatively different than what DECC/ provides, actually.  It's warning levels can be01 adjusted and I remember an example recently where0. the default did NOT catch something that -Wall- would.  This may have been corrected in more   recent DECC releases.   1 It appeared to me that Brian was making an unfair 0 indictment on all Unix developers as being loose5 and careless.  I showed where Unix typically provides.4 as strict checking as you find anywhere.  I can find3 numerous references to Unix experts who will advise0. that you always run your code through lint (or/ equivalent) to catch these kinds of things.  I  4 think an indictment of Unix tools as allowing sloppy4 programming is unfair.  It's the user, not the tool.  3 In the respect of thorough C checking or "linting", 1 DECC and OpenVMS is just now catching up to where.5 Unix was decades ago.  Used to be you were stuck with.2 VAXC with very little in the way of "linting" and $ there was no lint available, either.  4 There was a commercial lint I recall being available1 for OpenVMS, but this product had started over ina3 the Unix world and thus was an import of Unix tools02 and care toward program verification.  Seems like,3 until recently, one could question the judgement of  someone who used C on OpenVMS.   -Jordan HendersonX jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 09:33:57 -0400 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>- Subject: Re: quality+ Message-ID: <398AC645.52D3E9E4@hsc.vcu.edu>   H Amen to both metal around you in a crash, and cd's.. i'm hard of hearingH (98% hearing lost) and EVEN I CAN HEAR THE DIFF BETWEEN A CASSETTE AND A CD!!!! amazing...e   oh, what did you say????  F there was this guy, he was bragging about this new hearing aid he justG got, and someone finally got tired of him raving, and asked, "what kindd is it?"    he said:  "2:30".... t   hee hee ehee..   Carl Perkins wrote:r > 5 > Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes... G > }The key to this debate is that people make buying decisions based oneO > }*percieved* quality, which may or may not correlate well with actual qualityo% > }measured with a scientific metric.z > }nG > }> How did CD's gain acceptance in the face of phonographs which were  > }> common before then? > }bO > }percieved quality and actual quality pretty much aligned. It helped that the.M > }least discriminating listeners were also inn general the ones least likely.C > }to take good care of their vinyl disks, ie scratched them or gotuG > }fingerprints on them or just wore them out with cheap stylii, thingscG > }that CDs are immune to or much more resistant to. So it was probablyyA > }usability rather than fundamental quality that won it for CDs.  > G > There is also the size advantage: A CD is smaller than an LP. It also F > holds a bit more music.  And you don't have to flip it over half wayL > through. I expect that that "no-flip" factor is actually pretty important. > L > }> How did SUVs gain acceptance in the face of cheap, fuel efficient cars? > }AG > }percieved quality is subjective, and the SUV is a fashion statement, H > }every bit as much as flared trousers or crinolines were in their day.G > }In ten years time, must SUVs will be scrap and the rest treasured byhI > }collectors of late-1990s-automobiles, just as wierd slabs with lots ofs) > }chrome and fins at the back are today!  > H > There is also the perceived (and mostly real, aside from the increasedI > probability of rolling in some cases) safty factor. The bigger the hunkhL > of steel that you are in, the more likely you are to survive the accident. >  > }               Nigel Arnots > 
 > --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 08:18:57 CDT0= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell)t Subject: Re: Quality. Message-ID: <IHEYPxMM1064@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  \ In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:2 > In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,@ > Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >>L >>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainL >>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of theL >>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theJ >>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as: >>, >>static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble) >>  {i	 >>    ...' >>  } L >>%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return 
 >>  statement  >> >> ...or...  >>Q >>%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value l9 >>"mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int".  >> >> ...or...c >>M >>%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed  ' >>struct", is being converted to "int".e >> >> ...or...a >>M >>%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but =* >>  occurs in a context that requires one. >> >> ...or...    >>& >>    (and this one's my all time fav) >>- >>    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};C >>......................^3P >>%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is 
 >>1 too many.= >> > 	 > Hmmm...= >  > bash-2.04$ cat mumble.c= > #include <stdio.h> > ( > static int mumble(int a, int b, int c) > {0 >         int d = a + b + c; > 8 >         ( void )printf( "The mumble sum is %d\n", d ); > }d > ) > char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};d > # > int main( int argc, char **argv )a > {e6 >         mumble( (int)digits[0], (int)digits[1], 2 ); >  >         return 0;a > }  > bash-2.04$ gcc -Wall mumble.cr! > mumble.c: In function `mumble':y? > mumble.c:8: warning: control reaches end of non-void function  > mumble.c: At top level:a< > mumble.c:10: warning: excess elements in array initializer: > mumble.c:10: warning: (near initialization for `digits') >  >>I >>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"nK >>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been t. >>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >> > F > Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC# > compiler with regard to warnings.l    O It doesn't make much difference if the warnings are not enabled or are ignored.oL If these warnings were available when the program was "developed" (or ratherG slapped together), why was it distributed with the above errors intact?t  K I see a lot of the same shit when I try to compile something that came fromhN unix.  Admittedly, some of the errors *may* be harmless.  The "missing return"J doesn't matter if the function is never used in an expression, i.e. simplyO "my_function(yadda,dadda);".  However, you don't *know* that unless you examinewN every line of the code.  If the value *is* required you get undefined results.L Of course, if the function really doesn't return results it should have been; defined as void in the first place.  But hey, it's eunuchs.S  N There's no telling what would happen at run time with the array element error.M It depends entirely on what machine code the compiler actually generated, how H much storage it actually allocated (did it go by the "[9]" or by the tenL elements actually in the list?), and whether the program tries to access theN last element or not.  If the compiler allocated ten elements, then the programG works by accident, though it may not with a different compiler.  If the>O compiler allocated nine elements and the program never actually tried to accesstH element number ten, it works by accident. If the program tried to accessN element number ten, there is no way of knowing what value it would find there.' It wouldn't be the expected value of 9.T  O This array appears to be readonly, but the situation would be even worse if the"M program tried to modify element number 10.  It would basically wildwrite into-P whatever variable happened to immediately follow the array in the memory space. L The results of this, of course, would be completely unpredictable, and wouldE vary from compiler to compiler and environment to environment.  In my M experience, a race condition is the *only* software problem more difficult tol diagnose than a wildwrite.  N When you find code that is riddled with stuff like this, Brian's comment aboutM the quality of the code that people are so hot to port is dead on.  It's only O an accident the crap works as well as it does.   All of the undefined stuff may @ behave completely differently in another runtime environment.     O The first phase of any port from eunuchs to vms is fixing what's wrong with thes code first.3   Wayne8 --  O ===============================================================================)M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxm: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)aO ===============================================================================lP Woody Allen, in Sleeper: "I'm not the heroic type.  I was beaten up by Quakers."   ------------------------------   Date: 4 AUG 2000 14:51:33 GMT 6 From: greenwoodde@feda34.fed.ornl.gov (Dave Greenwood) Subject: Re: Quality1 Message-ID: <4AUG00.14513360@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>y  @ In a previous article, Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> wrote: [snip]E >     What version of the Compaq C compiler are you running?  Are youTA >     compiling using /STAND=COMMON which is sets the compiler too& >     behave like many UNIX compilers. >  eH >      I did not try all your examples, but the TOOMANY message has been7 >      a warning (not an error) since the V5.7 release.  >  -@ >     We have recently invested a lot of effort to make Compaq CJ >      more compatible with gcc.  If there are specific issues with CompaqH >      C V6.2A that prevent it from compiling programs that gcc compilesK >      please let us know.   While we will never be able to compile all gcct6 >      programs, it is a goal to compile most of them.   I *think* I'm running 6.2A:d  
   $ cc/ver+   Compaq C V6.2-007 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2s   $ help cc/standard   [snip]E      COMMON            Places the compiler in common C mode; that is,aD                        compatibility with the pcc compiler on ULTRIXB                        systems.  This mode is close to a subset of+                        /STANDARD=VAXC mode.a   [snip]  F Having never used ULTRIX or its pcc compiler, I would never guess thatC /STAND=COMMON had anything to do with the gcc of today or any otheraF reasonably current UNIX compiler.  Perhaps this section of the on-line2 help could be updated to be a little more helpful?   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVrH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 15:09:17 GMTu2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) Subject: Re: Quality, Message-ID: <8memat$qgi@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  g In article <3989FBBA.E9EC40BA@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:tH >However, I might conter that just as you wnat me to learn shell scriptsI >because that's what UN*X uses, I could easily counter that those who runtA >their stuff on VMS should learn DCL, since that's what VMS uses.t >f >See? It's a two way street!  J No it's not.  It's a one way street.  All the software comes from Unix to L VMS and not the other way around.  The Unix guys have no need for DCL (well,I actually some of them might use it if it was around, but they can get by  I without it).  Conversely, it's getting harder, and harder, and harder forrK me to get anything done on OpenVMS because more and more of the packages I 8> have to deal with are coming wrapped up in sh and csh scripts.   >d >>  Nor should it meanL >> that VMS users have to rewrite it before they can use it.  On OpenVMS youJ >> can run programs written in C, Fortran, Pascal etc.  I think sh and cshM >> should be considered in that light - as interpreted programming languages.e) >> And as such, they should be supported.l >a6 >So go ahead and port {ksh, sh, bash, csh} to OpenVMS! >   J This is a project for OpenVMS engineering (and for all I know it may be inI the COE work already).  There is a bash port in GNV, and it will run some F things, but I've yet to see it get through a "configure" script :-( .   H It is ironic though that Digital (or was it Compaq?) dropped support forH POSIX from VMS, where both sh and tcsh worked, just before the number ofF packages which absolutely required those shell languages sky rocketed.! Really bad timing on their part. o   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduy? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech w   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:19:16 -0400n( From: Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <398ADEF3.A2056859@compaq.com>   Dave Greenwood wrote:r   >iH > Having never used ULTRIX or its pcc compiler, I would never guess thatE > /STAND=COMMON had anything to do with the gcc of today or any other H > reasonably current UNIX compiler.  Perhaps this section of the on-line4 > help could be updated to be a little more helpful?  B     I agree.  I will notify our writer and suggest changes to bothG     the help file and the documentation.  Thanks for pointing this out.   4                                             Ed Vogel@                                             Compaq C Engineering   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:25:33 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)H Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE18F.2B0A18A0@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <398AC625.E62588DF@compaq.com>, Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> writes:yN >    I'm afraid I don't have time to read all this string but let me reply to: > & >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote >m >>D >>   Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theK >> DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:  >> >C >    <examples deleted>s >  >> >>J >> Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"K >> freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have beenc/ >> changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.. >> >> --SR >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >r >    Brian,i >.D >    What version of the Compaq C compiler are you running?  Are you@ >    compiling using /STAND=COMMON which is sets the compiler to% >    behave like many UNIX compilers.o >oG >     I did not try all your examples, but the TOOMANY message has beenc6 >     a warning (not an error) since the V5.7 release. >u? >    We have recently invested a lot of effort to make Compaq CaI >     more compatible with gcc.  If there are specific issues with CompaqmG >     C V6.2A that prevent it from compiling programs that gcc compiles J >     please let us know.   While we will never be able to compile all gcc5 >     programs, it is a goal to compile most of them.  >nA >                                                        Ed VogeloL >                                                        Compaq C Engineeing >a   Ed,   E I'm not complaining about the DEC compilers.  They're doing a fairly aC good job and enforce many good practices.  I was making a facetiousxD comment about the compilers being use to create much of the freewareD unix crap which I've attempted to port to VMS.  If DEC compilers wreC to look the other way when REALLY BAD CODE IS PRESENTED TO THEM, wehC just might be able to post a few unixy apps to VMS but then quality A would not the proper topic for this thread; unless, of course, wen, were to be questioning the existence of any.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:34:07 GMTv= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE190.5D5F3643@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <8meh04$pub$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:, >In article <GhqcFmCpl1RG@eisner.decus.org>,; >Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote: ^ >>In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:4 >>> In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,B >>> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >>>>N >>>>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainN >>>>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of theN >>>>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if theL >>>>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as: >>@ >>< snip example of Brian using DEC C to find software defects > >>? >>< snip example of Jordan using GCC to find software defects >  >>K >>>>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"tM >>>>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been o0 >>>>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >>>> >>> H >>> Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC% >>> compiler with regard to warnings.i >> >>= >>Brian did not complain about freeware.  He complained abouto< >>C compilers on the myriad flavors of Unix.  Your statement; >>that one C compiler gets it right does not contradict his # >>statement that many get it wrong.m >>: >>But we are not discussing what compiler Brian might use.9 >>We are talking about what compiler is used by those whoa9 >>wrote the software Brian wants to port.  Given that theh8 >>working compiler you demonstrated has _extremely_ wide8 >>availability, this does not say much for the judgement8 >>of those who created the software Brian wants to port,9 >>since they chose a defective compiler when the good onea7 >>was free.  I don't think I would want to use software"9 >>they wrote, since their judgement of other parts of thee" >>process might be equally flawed. >r8 >I'm fairly certain that Brian had tools at his disposal< >to find those errors on any of the "myriad flavors of Unix" >that he might have been using.a  I I'm fairly certain that you are wrong in your assertion!  I didn't write aH the crap nor did I try to compile it on a unix box.  This was "freeware"I offered on the internet which *supposedly* compiles and works on a number  of unix platforms.    7 >The traditional Unix philosophy toward static checkings7 >has been to utilize a separate tool, lint, to run over,4 >your source to find these kinds of problems.  This   H So what you are saying is that 'lint' shoudl catch the errors and that a compiler should let them be?    2 >It appeared to me that Brian was making an unfair1 >indictment on all Unix developers as being loose 6 >and careless.  I showed where Unix typically provides5 >as strict checking as you find anywhere.  I can findo4 >numerous references to Unix experts who will advise/ >that you always run your code through lint (orw0 >equivalent) to catch these kinds of things.  I 5 >think an indictment of Unix tools as allowing sloppyc5 >programming is unfair.  It's the user, not the tool.t  G I didn't say it want the tool's fault.  The user using the tool and therG skills of said user creating the "crap code" are to be called to answer G too.  However, I can't believe that a compiler can let such fundamentalnH poor coding practices go unchecked.  I really haven't digested the filesH which build this on other platforms but I'd guess that the original codeH whacker has disabled any, if not all, of the error reporting mechanisms.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:50:10 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE192.9B1651C7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <IHEYPxMM1064@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell) writes:] >In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes::3 >> In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,CA >> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:  >>>lM >>>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainaM >>>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of the M >>>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if the>K >>>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:o >>>t- >>>static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble)r >>>  {
 >>>    ... >>>  } ,M >>>%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return c >>>  statement >>>m >>> ...or... >>> R >>>%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value : >>>"mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int". >>>  >>> ...or... >>>>N >>>%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed ( >>>struct", is being converted to "int". >>>> >>> ...or... >>>>N >>>%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but + >>>  occurs in a context that requires one.- >>>N >>> ...or...   i >>>o' >>>    (and this one's my all time fav)  >>> . >>>    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >>>......................^Q >>>%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is   >>>1 too many. >>>  >> d
 >> Hmmm... >> m >> bash-2.04$ cat mumble.c >> #include <stdio.h>= >> ,) >> static int mumble(int a, int b, int c)c >> { >>         int d = a + b + c;b >> i9 >>         ( void )printf( "The mumble sum is %d\n", d );a >> } >> a* >> char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >> t$ >> int main( int argc, char **argv ) >> {7 >>         mumble( (int)digits[0], (int)digits[1], 2 );l >> a >>         return 0; >> }  >> bash-2.04$ gcc -Wall mumble.c" >> mumble.c: In function `mumble':@ >> mumble.c:8: warning: control reaches end of non-void function >> mumble.c: At top level:= >> mumble.c:10: warning: excess elements in array initializer ; >> mumble.c:10: warning: (near initialization for `digits')t >> i >>>nJ >>>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"L >>>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been / >>>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.d >>>f >> eG >> Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECCp$ >> compiler with regard to warnings. >h >eP >It doesn't make much difference if the warnings are not enabled or are ignored.M >If these warnings were available when the program was "developed" (or rather H >slapped together), why was it distributed with the above errors intact?  L Why?  So that Yaakov Eunuchuser could profess to the world that {he/she} hasL produced something so enlightening for the world that {his/her} name will beJ pronounced with reverence by other eunuchs uttering the sacred word of thy; divine O/S -- grep, yacc, awk, chmod, and (what the) fsck! a  L >I see a lot of the same shit when I try to compile something that came fromO >unix.  Admittedly, some of the errors *may* be harmless.  The "missing return"iK >doesn't matter if the function is never used in an expression, i.e. simplyyP >"my_function(yadda,dadda);".  However, you don't *know* that unless you examineO >every line of the code.  If the value *is* required you get undefined results.sM >Of course, if the function really doesn't return results it should have beenl< >defined as void in the first place.  But hey, it's eunuchs.   Damn right!  A waste of time.   O >There's no telling what would happen at run time with the array element error.uN >It depends entirely on what machine code the compiler actually generated, howI >much storage it actually allocated (did it go by the "[9]" or by the teneM >elements actually in the list?), and whether the program tries to access the1O >last element or not.  If the compiler allocated ten elements, then the program H >works by accident, though it may not with a different compiler.  If theP >compiler allocated nine elements and the program never actually tried to accessI >element number ten, it works by accident. If the program tried to access*O >element number ten, there is no way of knowing what value it would find there. ( >It wouldn't be the expected value of 9.  N I was discussing this just this morning.  Does the compiler allocate space forP and store the extra parameters in the initialization?  Does it truncate and dis-N card the extra data beyond the defined array size?  Does it write the initial-M ization element data on subsequently declared variables?  Who the hell knows?g    P >This array appears to be readonly, but the situation would be even worse if theN >program tried to modify element number 10.  It would basically wildwrite intoQ >whatever variable happened to immediately follow the array in the memory space.  M >The results of this, of course, would be completely unpredictable, and wouldaF >vary from compiler to compiler and environment to environment.  In myN >experience, a race condition is the *only* software problem more difficult to >diagnose than a wildwrite.- >-O >When you find code that is riddled with stuff like this, Brian's comment about4N >the quality of the code that people are so hot to port is dead on.  It's onlyP >an accident the crap works as well as it does.   All of the undefined stuff mayA >behave completely differently in another runtime environment.     > P >The first phase of any port from eunuchs to vms is fixing what's wrong with the >code first.  P EXACTLY!  Of course, the lack of ANY comment to describe what WAS intended makesQ this effort quite difficult, if not impossible, in many cases.  I'm tired of try- P ing to gleen some sense of what is supposed to happen in a poorly written bit ofO code by reading the poorly written bit of code.  In many cases, you don't fix aAP program but write it from scratch.  The problem, in a complex (=enourmous sourceM line count) program, is it is likely not feasible to rewrite it from scratch.a   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMC   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:30:28 +0100M- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>m Subject: Re: Quality) Message-ID: <398AEFA4.46B46CEE@bbc.co.uk>   & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:   >e >  > Ed,o >iF > I'm not complaining about the DEC compilers.  They're doing a fairlyE > good job and enforce many good practices.  I was making a facetiousuF > comment about the compilers being use to create much of the freewareF > unix crap which I've attempted to port to VMS.  If DEC compilers wreE > to look the other way when REALLY BAD CODE IS PRESENTED TO THEM, we-E > just might be able to post a few unixy apps to VMS but then quality C > would not the proper topic for this thread; unless, of course, wee. > were to be questioning the existence of any.   Brian1  G Did you consider reverse engineering the design spec of these apps thenRM re-implemeting them on VMS using VMS techniques and concepts. You never know,AI you might end up with more hair, and more reliable apps, and more time on " your hands, and less support load.     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukM  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.h   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 16:49:46 GMTT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)s Subject: Re: Quality+ Message-ID: <8mes7a$5hv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>i  - In article <398A0669.6FA69563@earthlink.net>,h:  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes: |> eI |> Having experience with both DCL and the shells, the features available C |> in the shells that are lacking (or take another form) in DCL arerC |> extremely few, IMO. The reverse, however, is not true. There arerK |> features available in DCL (due to the underlying services present on VMS K |> but lacking on UN*X) which simply do not, and can not, exist in the UN*Xa
 |> shells.  F But the desire is not to port (non-existant) VMS stuff to UNIX, but toG port (a plethora of) UNIX applications to VMS.  If, as you say, UNIX iskK by comparison only a very small subset of VMS, then this should be trivial. H The facts are, however, that it is not so much the number of features asI much as a difference in underlying paradigm that makes porting difficult.d   |> tE |> It's not "NIH" ("Not Invented Here") as many folks want to think. m  E Of course it is.  When every suggestion to port a UNIX application toeE VMS immediately degenerates into a "why UNIX software is all garbage"aB session, what else can you call it??  It would be different if theE desire was to port applications that would be competing with existingrH VMS applications of equal or better capabilities, but the fact is, these just don't exist.y  K |>                                                                   Rather I |> it's KFM (Key Features Missing) that prevent VMS <-> UN*X transparencyS |> from being a total reality.  I No one is talking about UNIX<->VMS transparency.  The possibility of thataH went away with POSIX.  It is primarily UNIX->VMS that people are talkingI about.  And in that, a deal in which VMS comes out the winner.  There are H no Freeware VMS applications (at least, none that I have ever seen) thatH offer a needed functionality to UNIX that don't already exist there.  AsF a matter of fact, Some of the stuff on the Freeware CD came from UNIX, proving it can be done.r   |> uG |> In a very real way - and this is not to be intentionally derogatory,,I |> just factual - the disparity of features makes UN*X, by necessity, ther |> "lowest common denominator".2  F So then, where is the problem with bringing in these UNIX applicationsC to the VMS world??  Or are you saying that VMS has no need for free H software to do things like spreadsheets, image editing, word processing, etc.??   |> a |> For examples: |>  3 |> o Avoid RMS because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack RMS" |> dK |> o Avoid ODS dependencies (multiple file versions, discrete disk volumes,e. |> etc.) because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack ODS. |>  H |> o Avoid logical names because non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack logical names. |> eF |> o Avoid distinguishing between local and global CLI symbols because/ |> non-OpenVMS o.s.-es lack such functionality.A |> 0K |> Remember: UN*X (including Linux, by the way) is a SUBSET of OpenVMS, note@ |> a SUPERset, quite the reverse: OpenVMS is a SUPERSET of UN*X.  H All of the above would only be of interest if the desire was to port VMSH stuff to UNIX.  But there is no VMS stuff that UNIX doesn't already have (at the application level).    |>  H |> ...which raises a question in my mind: How come no one grouses (well,K |> maybe they do and I just don't hear about it) because shell scripts etc.c% |> aren't facilitated by Whine-Blows?   H They are.  sh and csh were ported to the DOS environment way back in theJ 8088 days.  I am fairly certain that BASH is available for those platformsG today.  Other than that, perl is available, as is most of X11 in a form I mostly compatable with it's UNIX cousin.  face it, VMS is the odd man out < and it is hurting it much more than the opposite hurts UNIX.  E As a concluding note, I have started setting up a number of small VAXaD systems at home with the primary intent of learning enough about VMSE to work on porting some of this stuff.  Hopefully, it will be trivialhH for someone to take what I accomplish and test/fix it for use on Alphas.  
 All the best.    bill   -- SJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:12:41 -0400-( From: Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <398AF989.DEEA0801@compaq.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:   >. > If DEC compilers wreE > to look the other way when REALLY BAD CODE IS PRESENTED TO THEM, we E > just might be able to post a few unixy apps to VMS but then quality,C > would not the proper topic for this thread; unless, of course, wea. > were to be questioning the existence of any. >g  U     I "feel your pain" Brian.  Again, we have spent a great deal of effort, beginning,N     with the V5.7 release, and continuing through V6.2A to modify the compilerM     so that it would accept more "bad" code.  We made lots of errors (such as>R     too many initializers) warnings so that at least an .obj file can be produced.N     We've spent a great deal of time enhancing the compiler to accept programsM      that gcc accepts.  I urge you to upgrade to V6.2A and try /STAND=COMMON.nK      If that's still too noisy (too many warnings) add /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL3p<     then /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL2 then /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL1.  AtU     some point the compiler should stop emitting the warnings/informationals that youo	     want.t       From your other posting:  O >I was discussing this just this morning.  Does the compiler allocate space for>Q >and store the extra parameters in the initialization?  Does it truncate and dis-rO >card the extra data beyond the defined array size?  Does it write the initial-cN >ization element data on subsequently declared variables?  Who the hell knows?  -     The message output by a V6.2 compiler is:r  ' char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};o% ....................................^hO %CC-W-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is 1s2 too many.  The extra initializers will be ignored.  F      Note that the improved message will give you the answer you want.  P                                                                         Ed VogelP                                                                         Compaq C Engineeringa   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:28:26 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)l Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE1A0.55681908@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Y In article <398AEFA4.46B46CEE@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:g >  >'' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:u >s >> >> >> Ed, >>G >> I'm not complaining about the DEC compilers.  They're doing a fairlyeF >> good job and enforce many good practices.  I was making a facetiousG >> comment about the compilers being use to create much of the freewarerG >> unix crap which I've attempted to port to VMS.  If DEC compilers wreeF >> to look the other way when REALLY BAD CODE IS PRESENTED TO THEM, weF >> just might be able to post a few unixy apps to VMS but then qualityD >> would not the proper topic for this thread; unless, of course, we/ >> were to be questioning the existence of any.  >s >Brian >rH >Did you consider reverse engineering the design spec of these apps thenC                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^o ROTFLMAO!!!   N >re-implemeting them on VMS using VMS techniques and concepts. You never know,J >you might end up with more hair, and more reliable apps, and more time on# >your hands, and less support load.   G More of the unixy freeware doesn't even have code comments, let alone ae design spec.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 13:42:40 -0400d/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)e Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8mevag$885$1@lisa.gemair.com>  . In article <IHEYPxMM1064@tachxxsoftxxconsult>,> Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223> wrote:] >In article <8md59c$lir$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:-3 >> In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>,mA >> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:: >>>QM >>>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brainMM >>>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of thelM >>>unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if the(K >>>DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:> >>>>- >>>static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble)H >>>  {
 >>>    ... >>>  } .M >>>%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return m >>>  statement >>>  >>> ...or... >>>sR >>>%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value : >>>"mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int". >>>" >>> ...or... >>>eN >>>%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed ( >>>struct", is being converted to "int". >>>  >>> ...or... >>>mN >>>%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but + >>>  occurs in a context that requires one.f >>>e >>> ...or...   n >>>a' >>>    (and this one's my all time fav)  >>>t. >>>    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >>>......................^Q >>>%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is i >>>1 too many. >>>. >> >
 >> Hmmm... >> L >> bash-2.04$ cat mumble.c >> #include <stdio.h>  >> e) >> static int mumble(int a, int b, int c)r >> { >>         int d = a + b + c;o >>  9 >>         ( void )printf( "The mumble sum is %d\n", d );i >> } >> 1* >> char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >> >$ >> int main( int argc, char **argv ) >> {7 >>         mumble( (int)digits[0], (int)digits[1], 2 );  >> d >>         return 0; >> }  >> bash-2.04$ gcc -Wall mumble.c" >> mumble.c: In function `mumble':@ >> mumble.c:8: warning: control reaches end of non-void function >> mumble.c: At top level:= >> mumble.c:10: warning: excess elements in array initializer ; >> mumble.c:10: warning: (near initialization for `digits')* >> ) >>>{J >>>Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix"L >>>freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been / >>>changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant.  >>>f >> vG >> Seems like the free compiler is every bit as good as the pricey DECC $ >> compiler with regard to warnings. >. >0P >It doesn't make much difference if the warnings are not enabled or are ignored.M >If these warnings were available when the program was "developed" (or rather H >slapped together), why was it distributed with the above errors intact? > L >I see a lot of the same shit when I try to compile something that came fromO >unix.  Admittedly, some of the errors *may* be harmless.  The "missing return" K >doesn't matter if the function is never used in an expression, i.e. simply P >"my_function(yadda,dadda);".  However, you don't *know* that unless you examineO >every line of the code.  If the value *is* required you get undefined results.oM >Of course, if the function really doesn't return results it should have beens< >defined as void in the first place.  But hey, it's eunuchs. >eO >There's no telling what would happen at run time with the array element error.iN >It depends entirely on what machine code the compiler actually generated, howI >much storage it actually allocated (did it go by the "[9]" or by the tenyM >elements actually in the list?), and whether the program tries to access the O >last element or not.  If the compiler allocated ten elements, then the program,H >works by accident, though it may not with a different compiler.  If theP >compiler allocated nine elements and the program never actually tried to accessI >element number ten, it works by accident. If the program tried to accessdO >element number ten, there is no way of knowing what value it would find there.i( >It wouldn't be the expected value of 9. > P >This array appears to be readonly, but the situation would be even worse if theN >program tried to modify element number 10.  It would basically wildwrite intoQ >whatever variable happened to immediately follow the array in the memory space.  M >The results of this, of course, would be completely unpredictable, and wouldtF >vary from compiler to compiler and environment to environment.  In myN >experience, a race condition is the *only* software problem more difficult to >diagnose than a wildwrite.t >cO >When you find code that is riddled with stuff like this, Brian's comment about N >the quality of the code that people are so hot to port is dead on.  It's onlyP >an accident the crap works as well as it does.   All of the undefined stuff mayA >behave completely differently in another runtime environment.   a >eP >The first phase of any port from eunuchs to vms is fixing what's wrong with the >code first. >s  L For the record, I am not defending slipshod programming practices.  In fact,H I always use the most stringent levels of checking available.  I'm even J looking into setting up lclint (http://lclint.cs.virginia.edu/) to do someB project specific data type/modularization checks that no lint or CG compiler could hope to check.  Lclint uses annotations you place in thesG code to direct lclint to flag uses that violate project standards (likev0 data hiding, variable naming conventions, etc.).  : My post was specifically aimed at this statement by Brian:  M >>>...and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brain M >>>damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of thea  C Which I felt was unfair and inaccurate.  I don't believe that the C F compilers on Unix systems are "brain damaged" when compared to OpenVMSB Compilers.  In fact, I believe you'll find that there's one of theF myriad flavors of Unix that uses essentially the same C compiler that D you'll find on OpenVMS.  Compaq has even recently made this compiler: available for Alpha/Linux users as a commercial product.    G I don't know how you could possibly read into what I said above that I  G was defending bad programming practices.  It seems we are talking past   each other here.  F I didn't realize at the time that Brian was criticizing a bad piece ofF coding that originate from a Unix system.  It sure sounded like he wasA complaining about a compiler that wasn't flagging errors for him.e   G I've pointed this out elsewhere.  OpenVMS people have a raw nerve when  E it comes to Unix.  They seem to believe that it's extremely limited,  H it doesn't promote good programming practices and nothing good can come  from it.  J I disagree.  Ironically, when I try to point out good things about OpenVMSF to Unix advocates, I meet with similar derision.  It's funny how theseF things always devolve into political camps, nobody actually listens toH what anybody is saying, just looking for something to pounce on to proveH that they and their way of doing things is right and that all the others
 are wrong.  D I'd like to point out that I've seen some horrible, unbelievably badA coding in C on OpenVMS. I think I agree with the following quote:w  6 	"In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's C programs ? 	 should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt." e 				-- Blair P. Houghton  F Unfortunately for the advocates of OpenVMS, OpenVMS is in something ofE a downward spiral as of late.  For OpenVMS to succeed, I believe it'soG necessary for the people who use it to take a broader view, look at howbH to interoperate and incorporate the good things from other environments.  D I'm encouraged at what I see coming from Compaq OpenVMS Engineering I lately in this regard (Apache, TCP/IP V 5, the porting wrappers, interestwF in StarOffice/OpenOffice).  I'm not encouraged by the attitudes I see  expressed here.o  D Also for the record, I do believe that, properly managed, an OpenVMSE system offers a better platform for well engineered systems and these E systems tend to be more reliable than those implemented on currently n available alternatives.6   >Wayne >-- P >===============================================================================N >Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx; >http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  eL >change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)P >===============================================================================Q >Woody Allen, in Sleeper: "I'm not the heroic type.  I was beaten up by Quakers."i   -Jordan Hendersonn jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:44:12 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE1A2.898C9622@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <398AF989.DEEA0801@compaq.com>, Ed Vogel <edward.vogel@compaq.com> writes:i' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  >o >> >> If DEC compilers wrekF >> to look the other way when REALLY BAD CODE IS PRESENTED TO THEM, weF >> just might be able to post a few unixy apps to VMS but then qualityD >> would not the proper topic for this thread; unless, of course, we/ >> were to be questioning the existence of any.n >> >wV >    I "feel your pain" Brian.  Again, we have spent a great deal of effort, beginning   :)  O >    with the V5.7 release, and continuing through V6.2A to modify the compiler N >    so that it would accept more "bad" code.  We made lots of errors (such asS >    too many initializers) warnings so that at least an .obj file can be produced.NO >    We've spent a great deal of time enhancing the compiler to accept programsiN >     that gcc accepts.  I urge you to upgrade to V6.2A and try /STAND=COMMON.L >     If that's still too noisy (too many warnings) add /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL3= >    then /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL2 then /WARN=DISABLE=LEVEL1.  AttV >    some point the compiler should stop emitting the warnings/informationals that you
 >    want. >  >    From your other posting:o >rP >>I was discussing this just this morning.  Does the compiler allocate space forR >>and store the extra parameters in the initialization?  Does it truncate and dis-P >>card the extra data beyond the defined array size?  Does it write the initial-O >>ization element data on subsequently declared variables?  Who the hell knows?r >e. >    The message output by a V6.2 compiler is: >e( >char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9};' >.....................................^cP >%CC-W-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is 13 >too many.  The extra initializers will be ignored.e >nG >     Note that the improved message will give you the answer you want.e  L I know that the DEC C compiler is doing...  Here is the dilema and I believeM that Wayne understood the problem at hand best.  The code is flawed.  I does,AL however, purport to build and run on unix platforms.  Not knowing what theirL compiler(s) do with such constructs leaves me pondering whether or not DEC C2 can constructed code which mimics this behavior.    K My personal goal is that there should be NO WARNINGS generated!  In fact, I L strive to eliminate even the informational messages or, at a minimum, under-L stand them prior to suppressing them (most being Alpha performance issues or	 similar).o  K BTW, does 6.2A fix the preprocessor bugger that I reported?  Dealt with theh) "\" continuation to help jog your memory.e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:36:10 GMT  From: rcyoung@groupz.net) Subject: SMG calls bringing up EDT editorS) Message-ID: <8meuub$2b9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>m  = I am trying to "bring up" the standard VMS editor from within > SMG to do editing of text files, the go back into SMG with the0 screens intact, looking as the were before, etc.  E However, I can not get the editor to take keyboard input, even thoughhE the editor does come up using SMG$EXECUTE_COMMAND. It ignores the keya input.  # Do I need to use another call, or ?h  ? CC replies to rcyoung@groupz.net if possible. Thanks in advancei    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:34:20 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>-> Subject: Re: Support of PowerStorm P300 and P350 under OpenVMS, Message-ID: <8mer79$couf$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  J >Synergy card with a PowerStorm graficcard. Which PowerStorm are supportedA >under OpenVMS 7.1-2? Do we need some patch? Do this card supportnB >8bit PseudoColor- and 24bit TrueColor at the same time (Elsa does >only support 8bit XOR 24bit)? >e  J Someone already replied with the pointer to the patch kit.  Yes, this cardI will support mixed depths (8 and 24-bit windows on the same screen).  ThepF RAMDAC on the ELSA (and pretty much all PC cards) do not support mixed depths (only one at a time).   >TIA and regards Rudolf Wingerth >oE >P.S. Is it possible to use the PowerStorm 4D20 within the DS20, ES40r >     and XP1000?  >  >y   Yes.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 14:25:51 GMT 0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)/ Subject: Re: Telnet in a single line command... 5 Message-ID: <8mejpf$sn8$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>   , In article <398A31F8.9A129FB9@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:B : Howard S Shubs wrote:BI : > Okay, I've done a bit more research.  I'm trying to build GNU telnet.gK : > <grin>  From what I've been able to tell, it seems that UCX uses a kindwG : > of unfortunate design which includes use of SMG for some gawd-awfulo : > reason.e : I : Kermit does what you want. It can connect to any port, fully scriptable N : communications to the internet. It is robust, mature (been tested for years)3 : and fully availble for many flavours of VMS/tcpip  :o And you can find it at:h  -   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.htmld   - Frank{   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 02:36:45 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: The Linux Paradigm ( Message-ID: <8mdo7j$c3e$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message % news:DnsYrCesjHYi@eisner.decus.org...    ...   I IBM is indeed getting behind Linux in a big way that could well leave VMS J even farther back in the dust if it doesn't do something similar.  But The= Register's article is pretty clearly confused about FailSafe:8  ; > And now the Linux clustering product worthy of that labelV > is just about read to roll:  >s3 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/12022.htmlt  L "FailSafe was designed to host TP and database applications using the sharedB everything model pioneered by DEC in its original VAXClusters (nowH TruClusters) - a model adopted by almost everyone else except Tandem and Microsoft.">  J Leaving aside the point that VMS clusters are far from 'shared everything'F (which includes distributed shared memory as well as shared-disk, at aD minimum), FailSafe isn't even shared-disk, which means it's about asL 'shared-everything' as Microsoft clusters are (in that MS clusters support -A or more correctly tolerate - Oracle Parallel Server as their solewF shared-disk application).  And IIRC the *only* other vendor to supportK (rather than just tolerate) shared-disk configurations is IBM, in its S/390 F Parallel Sysplex product plus the GPFS (but not the standard JFS) fileI system on AIX:  shared-nothing is far more the norm than shared-disk, letmB alone shared-everything, as far as vendor products go (though someL third-party shared-disk file system products have appeared over the past few> years, aimed primarily at non-linear distributed video editing applications).  J My guess is that FailSafe may support (in addition to the basic mechanismsH required to manage cluster membership) some form of distributed locking,J which could be used as *one* important part of a real clustering facility.I But the article seems to suggest that FailSafe doesn't include *any* file8K system of its own (and certainly not a shared-disk file system), and it's a F rather large step from a DLM to a file system that knows how to use itI efficiently (rather than just 'serve files' from statically-defined ownert nodes that lock locally).0  H So even ignoring the indication that SGI is still exploring legal issuesL involved in open-sourcing FailSafe, claiming that it's a "clustering productK worthy of that label" that "is just about ready to roll" appears to be moree than a stretch.f   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 08:57:35 -050009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: The Linux Paradigm + Message-ID: <Tg17faWh+c3I@eisner.decus.org>u  X In article <DnsYrCesjHYi@eisner.decus.org>, young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) writes:  ; > 	Not if 3 years from now everyone is writing to the Linux>> > 	API and it compiles clean as a whistle across 20 platforms.< > 	VMS is one of the target platforms because it is the best > 	Linux back-end out there.  A Notions that <n> years from now the entire computer industry willf? be doing <x> have always been wrong for 50 years, even when thet value of <x> was X..   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 10:29:00 -0500t* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) Subject: Re: The Linux Paradigmo+ Message-ID: <9W2vd8$nlzvx@eisner.decus.org>   R In article <8mdo7j$c3e$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > 7 > Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagee' > news:DnsYrCesjHYi@eisner.decus.org...n   > J > So even ignoring the indication that SGI is still exploring legal issuesN > involved in open-sourcing FailSafe, claiming that it's a "clustering productM > worthy of that label" that "is just about ready to roll" appears to be more> > than a stretch.i >   : 	Fair enough!  But Itanium is just about ready to roll and$ 	has been for the last 2 or 3 years.   				Rob0   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 12:05:15 GMT / From: "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net>b1 Subject: Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet shipfF Message-ID: <%jyi5.4240$gW5.248207@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  , Can anyone tell me what an ethernet ship is?3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message 0 news:200008020755.JAA06661@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > Hello, >iE > AFAIK, Compaq will use the Intel Ethernet ship with all the new one  Alphas.aH > Now we do have a SGI workstation (Intel based) with the Intel Ethernet shipH > and we do have a lot of trouble with this Ethernet. If there is a havy loadK > on the Ethernet (switched Ethernet, one node / port) the workstation will J > shutdown immediatly without any error message (no bluescreen). Does any-G > body have expirience with the Intel ship within Alphas (bad or good)?  >   > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert >i >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 14:39:03 +0100c- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>s1 Subject: Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet shipt) Message-ID: <398AC777.8B4B5570@bbc.co.uk>    John Nixon wrote:l  . > Can anyone tell me what an ethernet ship is?  0 My guess is that Rudolf meant "chip" not "ship".   Regardsf   >v5 > "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in messager2 > news:200008020755.JAA06661@sinet1.fom.fgan.de...
 > > Hello, > >sG > > AFAIK, Compaq will use the Intel Ethernet ship with all the new onee	 > Alphas.nJ > > Now we do have a SGI workstation (Intel based) with the Intel Ethernet > shipJ > > and we do have a lot of trouble with this Ethernet. If there is a havy > loadM > > on the Ethernet (switched Ethernet, one node / port) the workstation williL > > shutdown immediatly without any error message (no bluescreen). Does any-I > > body have expirience with the Intel ship within Alphas (bad or good)?  > >h" > > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert > >f > >    --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukt  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofn MedAS or the BBC.v   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 14:42:00 GMTl/ From: "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net>e1 Subject: Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet shipoH Message-ID: <YCAi5.21172$RG6.1736050@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  J That was what I thought, but I wasn't sure if there was some terminology IL was not aware of.  I sure wasn't trying to be insulting to someone that uses= a second language (English) better than many native speakers.o  : "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message# news:398AC777.8B4B5570@bbc.co.uk...s >f >k > John Nixon wrote:n >b0 > > Can anyone tell me what an ethernet ship is? > 2 > My guess is that Rudolf meant "chip" not "ship". >o	 > Regards  >i > >s7 > > "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in messagef4 > > news:200008020755.JAA06661@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > > > Hello, > > >oI > > > AFAIK, Compaq will use the Intel Ethernet ship with all the new one  > > Alphas.dL > > > Now we do have a SGI workstation (Intel based) with the Intel Ethernet > > shipL > > > and we do have a lot of trouble with this Ethernet. If there is a havy > > loadJ > > > on the Ethernet (switched Ethernet, one node / port) the workstation willI > > > shutdown immediatly without any error message (no bluescreen). Doeso any-K > > > body have expirience with the Intel ship within Alphas (bad or good)?a > > >k$ > > > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert > > >  > > >  >y > --8 > Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project2 > MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.C > Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uke >oC > I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe > MedAS or the BBC.a >h >    ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:57:29 GMT- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>a1 Subject: Re: Trouble with the Intel Ethernet ships( Message-ID: <398AD9D4.3071D63C@ohio.edu>  M I presumed it was a typo for ethernet Chip, the interface integrated circuit.o                   RDPa     John Nixon wrote:   . > Can anyone tell me what an ethernet ship is?5 > "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message 2 > news:200008020755.JAA06661@sinet1.fom.fgan.de...
 > > Hello, > >nG > > AFAIK, Compaq will use the Intel Ethernet ship with all the new onet	 > Alphas.tJ > > Now we do have a SGI workstation (Intel based) with the Intel Ethernet > shipJ > > and we do have a lot of trouble with this Ethernet. If there is a havy > loadM > > on the Ethernet (switched Ethernet, one node / port) the workstation will L > > shutdown immediatly without any error message (no bluescreen). Does any-I > > body have expirience with the Intel ship within Alphas (bad or good)?o > >o" > > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert > >, > >e   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:53:16 GMT3 From: cornelius@eisner.decus.org (George Cornelius)l! Subject: Re: UCX 5 Telnet problema+ Message-ID: <K2Mzvb9eRSJW@eisner.decus.org>d  y In article <418E68E524A8D311ACCE00508B78866A7680EA@exchange.t-netix.com>, Lorin Ricker <Lorin.Ricker@t-netix.com> writes:VI > We had a similar (probably not identical) problem with "out-of-the-box"tD > TCP/IP v5.0 as installed with VMS 7.2, between host and our clientM > application.  Problem was pretty basic: the Telnet startup protocol was not L > honoring our command to turn off character echoing --- this was stuff thatM > worked reliably in UCX v4.2 and prior.  We were part of the customer clamorpM > that got the "temporary" and interim v5.0A fix-up out the door from VMS/TCP K > Engr'g.  Contact Q and get that patch-kit... it might help, and certainlym
 > won't hurt!V  I Thanks for the information.  We had the 8 bit binary problem as well, butyJ with the telnet server. After I mentioned it to the product manager at theH last DECUS symposium I had some email exchanges with John Gemignani, whoI posts here from time to time.  He determined that there was in fact a bug I in the handling of 0xff data values and indicated that it would be fixed,wK but I have not seen it mentioned in any subsequent patch kit release notes.s  I At any rate, it will soon be a moot point here - the affected interfacing=L group is shifting to their interface box of choice (I think it's a Sun), for9 reasons most likely unrelated to this particular problem.r   --8 George Cornelius              cornelius@eisner.decus.org0                               cornelius@mayo.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:06:12 -0400 , From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>7 Subject: Updated FORRTL_TV - Translated VAX Fortran RTL 8 Message-ID: <rjslossshee12qhg6jebh1c0d62ctu66l0@4ax.com>  C As some of you are aware, there has been a problem with VAX FortranhF programs translated by DECmigrate (VAX) and run on Alpha, where if you? install OpenVMS Alpha 7.2 or Compaq Fortran 7.2 (or later), thetA translated programs stop working (typically, they get an ACCVIO.)o  = The reason this occurs is that the translated VAX Fortran RTL C (FORRTL_TV), as supplied by OpenVMS, is not a simple translation of F the VAX RTL.  Instead, an attempt was made to support mixed translatedE and native I/O on the same Fortran unit.  To use this, you would haveeE to have a VAX Fortran shareable image which you then brought to AlphaaE and translated, wrote some native Alpha Fortran code which called thef? translated shareable image, and attempted to do I/O to the sameaF Fortran LUN in both the native and translated code.  If you simply hadC a VAX executable which you translated, you would not have used this  feature.  E This must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but the engineers B who implemented it (they worked for the Alpha Migration group, notC Fortran), decided to take a short cut.  Rather than turning the VAXgE RTL I/O code into "jackets" for calls into the public entry points oftB the native RTL, they had the translated RTL share the native RTL's@ internal data structures.  This worked as long as the native RTLD didn't change the layout or use of its internal structures, but with@ the added support of 64-bit addressing, these structures changedB significantly and the translated RTL was unable to deal with this.  A The solution I have implemented is to simply translate the latesti; version of the VAX Fortran RTL, eliminating support for thenE cross-architecture I/O.   An added advantage of this approach is thatmC the new translated RTL is compatible with VAX Fortran V6 and later, C and supports the non-native data in I/O feature.  Note however thatyF the math library has NOT been updated to include new routines that theE V6 compiler used, so you would have to compile with /MATH_LIBRARY=V5.t  A A kit to install the updated translated FORRTL_TV is available at J ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/fortran/OpenVMS/FORRTL_TV-T0100-1.zipexe  / RUN this to unpack and then install as follows:t  + $ PRODUCT INSTALL FORRTL_TV /SOURCE=[]/HELPi  B OpenVMS Alpha 7.1-2 is the minimum version supported.  (If someone3 needs support for an earlier version, let me know.)r  ? The files updated are FORRTL_D56_TV.EXE and FORRTL.IIF, both ineF SYS$LIBRARY:.  If you have worked around the problem by using an olderD copy of DEC$FORRTL.EXE, the Alpha Fortran RTL, you no longer need toB do that, as this translated image doesn't reference DEC$FORRTL.EXE  A If you try this, please let me know, by mail, the results of youriD testing.  It seemed to work ok for me - I ran it through a number ofF the VAX Fortran test suites.  If enough people seem satisfied with it,E I'll ask OpenVMS Engineering to include it in future releases (and too create a remedial kit for it.)  @ Lastly, if you DO use the mixed-architecture I/O feature, I'd be? interested in hearing from you and seeing a description of youreD application.  I can pretty much guarantee that we will NEVER restore< the mixed-architecture I/O feature, but there are reasonable workarounds.  - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)- Fortran Engineering-& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:53:56 -0400- From: "Mike E. Fackler" <mfackler@bright.net>r Subject: VMS Vs any other OS3 Message-ID: <COAi5.819$yq6.73088@cletus.bright.net>S   Hi AllK   I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good job inCL the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doing lotsK of reading on networking technology lately and have a few part time jobs inp
 the works.  H   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherL type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start aI war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having a C hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it's K strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything elsem! in general and W2K in particular?   H    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localG hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why theyi would have chosen that.j  
 Thank you....d Mike   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 00 11:04:46 EDT  From: grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS/ Message-ID: <CcJlNPt1d$y4@mcduck.acs.wmich.edu>s  @ Well, for one thing, their patients lifes probably depend on it.  c In article <COAi5.819$yq6.73088@cletus.bright.net>, "Mike E. Fackler" <mfackler@bright.net> writes:p > Hi AllM >   I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good job in N > the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doing lotsM > of reading on networking technology lately and have a few part time jobs in- > the works. > J >   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherN > type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start aK > war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having a@E > hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it's M > strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else # > in general and W2K in particular?t > J >    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localI > hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why theys > would have chosen that.c >  > Thank you....h > Mike >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:17:17 -0700t+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>A  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <398ADE7C.6D46D5AF@mmaz.com>   In a single word, Reliability.  P I was at the W2k launch this past February and Gates does a great song as dance,J I personally preferred Patrick Stewart with his dumb jokes and the SantanaE touch, but you cannot find ANY Windows OS of any type that can reportgK uninterrupted uptimes in the class of VMS or even Unix.  If you are running P business critical operations, stopping everything to reboot and clear out boogieD processes or obtaining BSOD, won't cut it.  Perhaps that is why mostO semiconductor manufacturers and financial institutions depend on ANY OS besides  Windows.  O I have VMS systems that have stayed up for over 200 days, and would have stayednI up longer if I had generators once the UPS's failed.  I've had Linux, DECtP Ultrix, and DEC Unix systems stay up for almost that long, but NT, reboot cyclesN of 4 days to two weeks is pretty common.  W2k is supposed to be better, I haveL the upgrades CD's and I'll play with them when time becomes available, but I5 doubt that it will be in the league of VMS or Unix...m   Barryi     "Mike E. Fackler" wrote:   > Hi AllM >   I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good job ineN > the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doing lotsM > of reading on networking technology lately and have a few part time jobs ini > the works. >oJ >   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherN > type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start aK > war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having a E > hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it'ssM > strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else-# > in general and W2K in particular?  >uJ >    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localI > hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why theyd > would have chosen that.n >C > Thank you....u > Mike   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOw  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:27:13 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mena5$8nv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J For a start, one might expect you to ask the same questions about OS/400 - though probably not here.-  @ VMS is one of the (perhaps the) most reliable, scalable, secure,K full-function OSs you can use; some of these characteristics likely explain2? why you find it in your hospital.  Its performance is generallyvC good-to-excellent, though uncompetitive in some areas (such as fileuK processing, especially for applications that don't take signficant pains tog handle it efficiently).o  K Unfortunately, VMS is also relatively obscure (the consequence of long-termnH mis-handling first by Digital and now by Compaq:  two decades ago it wasL perhaps the best-known OS around), so many people who might otherwise use itJ instead opt for a platform (typically Unix or Windows) that both users andK support personnel are already familiar with and that boasts a wider variety- of third-party applications.  F If you're serious about learning about OSs, learning VMS will give youK insights into other environments that studying them alone likely would not.7J But the very completeness of the VMS documentation (almost all of which isK available on line should you want to check it out) means you'll be studying0 it for a while.t   - bill  6 Mike E. Fackler <mfackler@bright.net> wrote in message- news:COAi5.819$yq6.73088@cletus.bright.net...  > Hi AllJ >   I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good job inI > the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doinge lotsJ > of reading on networking technology lately and have a few part time jobs in > the works. > J >   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherL > type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start a K > war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having acE > hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it'swH > strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else# > in general and W2K in particular?e >aJ >    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localI > hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why they  > would have chosen that.s >t > Thank you....  > Mike >  >s   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:10:55 +0000 (   )h3 From: Christopher Smith <chriss@Mufasa.pubserv.com>e  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OSJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.10008041642540.13777-100000@Mufasa.pubserv.com>  * On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Mike E. Fackler wrote:  J >   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherN > type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start aK > war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having aeE > hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it'soM > strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else.# > in general and W2K in particular?o  G Well, uptime has allready been mentioned.  I would also add that memory I protection and multitasking never work as they should on a windows o/s ;)0J Even in NT where it's supposed to be impossible for a process to write outH of its own allocated memory, it happens.  I would add that VMS has yearsI of engineering behind it, where NT, for instance, only has a few years ofIJ questionable (I have my doubts about microsoft's engineering) equivelance.  G On another note, there are the features of the o/s -- not feature as in F "start button" or "wordpad," but things rather more internal, and moreG useful if I do say so, myself. :)  I'd give clustering, the DCL command = language, and RMS (the record management system) as examples.   @ RMS for instance, allows creation and manipulation of relativelyM complexly-formatted files, -- which windows would need something like access f
 to do for it.0  I There's also VMS's tight integration with the hardware that it runs on --mJ as opposed to the windows way of "it's the hardware designer's job to make, a driver, and who cares if it works well..."  J I'd also point out that VMS allows you to set limits for the amount of cpuG time that running processes take, as well as disk quotas (I'm not awares that NT offers such things)p  J X11 is fully supported under VMS, out of the box, too.  That's certainly aJ nice feature if you have more than one unix or VMS machine around, becauseG you can display applications from one machine on the display of anothernI (yes, windows does this too, kind of, but you have to go buy metaframe tom" get it to really work that way...)  I Then there is the full suite of utilities that comes with VMS, which willlG allow you to get whatever information you'd want regarding your system.yI VMS is very good at telling you exactly what's happening -- as opposed to-4 "the system is either busy, or has become unstable."  J >    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localI > hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why theya > would have chosen that.   I Well, when it comes right down to it, they could have made a few choices,oF and it probably would have worked, so VMS was probably just somebody's7 favorite thing out of the list of choices at the time. 5  G You hsould note that windows shouldn't be on that list today if they'reuH expecting constant availability, and just a few years ago, it would have6 been laughed at, were it even brought up as an option.  C (Recall that until windows NT, windows wasn't an o/s even, it was a  shell on top of dos...)d  D So what I'm saying is that while people might consider windows todayF (though, it's still not ready, and they shouldn't), they wouldn't haveB 8-10 years ago.  When was that system put in place?  I wouldn't beH suprised if it's been running on VMS since the 70's and just hasn't been' changed much because there was no need.=  G I hope that I haven't come across as being too bigotted.  I've tried toAF concentrate on the advantages of VMS, rather than the disadvantages ofH windows.  As you remove yourself a bit from the intel-world, you'll findB that there are a lot more disadvantages to windows, than there areI advantages to other things. :) (I should know, since I write windows apps E for a living right now.  I didn't mention the consistency of VMS whencG used as a programmming enviroment, and the ease with which you can make-J programs written in different languages communicate with each other.  Try 8 doing that with windows -- I have -- it's not pleasant.)   Regards,   Chrisi  O ===============================================================================t@ "My two cents"			(http://rootworks.com/twocentsworth.cgi?128562)= Christopher Smith(chriss@pubserv.com)			Prgramer^W Programmero Prime Synergy of Champaign, IL.o% -------------------------------------pI "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and/H weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes; and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 aO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 13:34:41 -0400x  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS4 Message-ID: <C2256931.005F9CD5.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  * On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Mike E. Fackler wrote:  J >   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otherN > type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start aK > war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having atE > hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it'smM > strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else # > in general and W2K in particular?   O I believe he mentioned a medical site.  Someone who knows should tell him aboutt the virtues of DSMumps.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:31:37 GMTs& From: wspencer@ap.org (Warren Spencer)  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS. Message-ID: <solvfpemdbm98@news.supernews.com>   Hi Mike,  L Most organizations don't choose operating systems - they choose application L software.  The hospital you speak of (like mine) no doubt found a "hospital F application" they liked, at the right price.  The fact that it ran on * OpenVMS was probably coincidental to them.  L This, of course, raises the question of why the application developer chose I OpenVMS.  Assuming that this choice was made perhaps eight or nine years aK ago, NT /  Win2K weren't choices.  The IBM pc ran DOS or Windows 3.1 - not lD exactly your protected-mode multi-user operating system of choice.  F Competetive choices were probably more like IBM's System/36,38, Unix,  Tandem, Honeywell...  C From a technical perspective, these platforms could all be seen as  K reasonable choices back then.  Indeed, the "hospital application" may have d# been ported to run on many of them.e  L Now for my 2 biased cents:  OpenVMS kicks butt in terms of reliability.  It I would be my first choice, given the choice.  Even today, Win NT/2K lacks  I many of the high-reliability/availability features that may be mandatory nE for medical applications, such as shared-disk clustering, host based  : shadowing, a backup/restore system that really works, etc.  M For mission-critical applications, always remember Lutestanski's First Law:    "It's gotta work".   ws   -- uJ << My employer does not necessarily agree with my opinions - neither do I  >>  . mfackler@bright.net (Mike E. Fackler) wrote in) <COAi5.819$yq6.73088@cletus.bright.net>: s   >Hi AlltI >  I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good jobr >  in H >the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doing  -- snip --t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 17:43:50 GMTa' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)h  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS0 Message-ID: <8mevcm$d6j$1@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk>  V In article <398ADE7C.6D46D5AF@mmaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> writes: >In a single word, Reliability.a > Q >I was at the W2k launch this past February and Gates does a great song as dance,hK >I personally preferred Patrick Stewart with his dumb jokes and the SantanaUF >touch, but you cannot find ANY Windows OS of any type that can reportL >uninterrupted uptimes in the class of VMS or even Unix.  If you are runningQ >business critical operations, stopping everything to reboot and clear out boogiewE >processes or obtaining BSOD, won't cut it.  Perhaps that is why most P >semiconductor manufacturers and financial institutions depend on ANY OS besides	 >Windows.  >$P >I have VMS systems that have stayed up for over 200 days, and would have stayedJ >up longer if I had generators once the UPS's failed.  I've had Linux, DECQ >Ultrix, and DEC Unix systems stay up for almost that long, but NT, reboot cyclesEO >of 4 days to two weeks is pretty common.  W2k is supposed to be better, I havetM >the upgrades CD's and I'll play with them when time becomes available, but It6 >doubt that it will be in the league of VMS or Unix... >p >Barry >  >a  5 VMS also has real clusters (has had them since 1984).iB This allows amongst other things for even longer uptimes since oneJ node can be shutdown (for operating system upgrades etc) without impacting application availability.   J As far as I am aware the record for a single system is the VAX/VMS system H used for railway switching in Ireland which someone recently stated had K been running VMS 3.x continously since 1983 without any reboots or crashes.D  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >"Mike E. Fackler" wrote:d >"	 >> Hi All N >>   I am a firefighter paramedic hoping to one day "break into" a good job inO >> the computer industry.  (Hope to retire soon ~SMILE~) I have been doing lots N >> of reading on networking technology lately and have a few part time jobs in
 >> the works.r >>K >>   My reading has recently taken me out of the Intel world and into otheraO >> type systems. (OS/400 and OpenVMS) I don't mean for this question to start amL >> war, but being so indoctrinated in a Win type OS (Win/2000) I am having aF >> hard time seeing the advantage to the VMS OS. What exactly are it'sN >> strengths over other OS? Why would an industry choose it over anything else$ >> in general and W2K in particular? >>K >>    If it helps any I have a prospect for a entry level IT job at a localjJ >> hospital who's main system runs VMS.  I'm kinda just wondering why they >> would have chosen that. >> >> Thank you.... >> Mike: >S >--n >t@ >Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO > B >E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028 >O >. >$   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:45:43 +0100: From: "Jonathan McCormack" <McCormackJ@BelfastCity.Gov.UK>7 Subject: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?r? Message-ID: <vGAi5.843$pS6.10099@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>a   Hi,   L After the great Compaq "stab NT Alpha in the back" debacle it was decided to# decommission our only NT Alpha Box.e  H I've decided to get my hands on it before anyone else does, so the basic questions are.   1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it?,, 2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can?$ 3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there?   Thanks   Jonathan3 (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)r   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 17:14:41 +0200g* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER); Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?l( Message-ID: <398adde1@news.kapsch.co.at>  | In article <vGAi5.843$pS6.10099@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Jonathan McCormack" <McCormackJ@BelfastCity.Gov.UK> writes:M >After the great Compaq "stab NT Alpha in the back" debacle it was decided to $ >decommission our only NT Alpha Box. >nI >I've decided to get my hands on it before anyone else does, so the basice >questions are.a >t >1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it?  G Of course. Good choice anyway. btw: go directly to OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1e8 if you can get the media (eg. copying it from a friend).  B You didn't tell us what options you have in your AlphaServer so weD can't tell you if they run with OpenVMS. You also need to switch theI console program from ARC to SRM (maybe you also need to fill the SRM into ? the flash memory first - if it's only a "half flashed" system).o  - >2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can?t  $ Become a DECUS member and then go to  " 	http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/  % >3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there?e   Yes.    G All of this questions have been asked here before umpteen times, so you F better check the VMS FAQ (in the VMS wizard zone) and a USENET archive. (DEJA.COM, REMARQ.COM, ...) before continuing.  ' 	http://www.openvms.digital.com/wizard/h   -- d< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:06:30 -0700 0 From: Hans Vlems <hvNOhvSPAM@fuji-ef.nl.invalid>; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?t9 Message-ID: <230e5751.3f6527cb@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>v  7 Nice system to have at home. Big, what do you mean big,t1 it's not exactly like having a VAX 11/750, is it?w   1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it?n  @ Provided the console is not limited to the WNT console software, it will run VMS all right.  , 2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can?  
 I don't know.r  $ 3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there?    Yes, SuSE has one (www.suse.com)  
 Hans Vlems    ; -----------------------------------------------------------V  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.0 Up to 100 minutes free!7 http://www.keen.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 16:10:07 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> ; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?t) Message-ID: <398ADCCF.7466B137@bbc.co.uk>u   Jonathan McCormack wrote:h   > Hi,  > N > After the great Compaq "stab NT Alpha in the back" debacle it was decided to% > decommission our only NT Alpha Box.e >aJ > I've decided to get my hands on it before anyone else does, so the basic > questions are. >o > 1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it?t  0 Sure, I have an exactly similar box running VMS.   >f. > 2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can? >g   Joinm DECUS.  & > 3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there? >t  K Yup, a current article on Linux distros on www.theregister.co.uk explicitly  mentions alpha AXP version.   >w > Thanks >h
 > Jonathan5 > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)    --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofi MedAS or the BBC.t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2000 10:45:26 GMTu" From: system@lnREMOVEgs.infn.it ()* Subject: where download the rsaref source?* Message-ID: <8me6s6$jhm$1@server.garr.net> Keywords: rsaref openssl   Hello,. 	I am trying to rebuild an SSH server for VMS." The SSH server needs of OpenSSL...4 the OpenSSL rebuild asks for the RSAREF source code.' Any url to download the RSAREF source? o Many thanks in advance, bye, 				Nazzareno Taborgna  " e-mail = Field_Reply-To - "REMOVE"5 _____________________________________________________c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:08:58 -0700r+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> . Subject: Re: where download the rsaref source?( Message-ID: <398ADC8A.BF85A317@mmaz.com>  F A related question for USA people, when does the RSA patent expire, is it not this summer?a   Regards,   Barryv    system@lnREMOVEgs.infn.it wrote:   > Hello,7 >         I am trying to rebuild an SSH server for VMS.o$ > The SSH server needs of OpenSSL...6 > the OpenSSL rebuild asks for the RSAREF source code.( > Any url to download the RSAREF source? > Many thanks in advance, bye,4 >                                 Nazzareno Taborgna >e$ > e-mail = Field_Reply-To - "REMOVE"7 > _____________________________________________________    --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOu  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.433 ************************