1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 05 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 435       Contents:& Re: Decwindows flakey after OS upgrade defining internet on vms Re: defining internet on vms Re: defining internet on vms Re: defining internet on vms Re: NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS. 0 Re: No Relay patch for MX 4.2 on Vax VMS 5.5-2 ? Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality  Re: Quality ( Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"2 Re: Updated FORRTL_TV - Translated VAX Fortran RTL Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS 2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 16:16:48 GMT 3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) / Subject: Re: Decwindows flakey after OS upgrade 0 Message-ID: <8mhelg$nhf$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  Z In article <39886f56.13023899@draco.nova.edu>, kevin@ocean.nova.edu (Kevin Kohler) writes: >  > F >We recently upgraded our 6 node Alpha cluster from OpenVMS 6.2-1h3 to? >7.2-1. We are running Decwindows v1.2-4. After the OS upgrade,   >Decwindows was not reinstalled. > E >The situation we are running into involves running a detached window A >running emacs (gnu emacs 19.22.2). If other windows (at least 2) C >partially cover the emacs window, and the cursor is moved onto the A >emacs window to give it focus and bring it to the top, the emacs . >window often dies with the following message: > - >%DEBUGBOOT-W-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded   I Why not follow the obvious and increase process quotas for the account in G question? Of course it might be a bit tricky to figure out which quota.    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -----------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +------------ http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/english/menue.html -----------+   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 12:04:21 +0200) From: "Ruku Soffer" <ruku@vms.huji.ac.il> ! Subject: defining internet on vms * Message-ID: <8mglib$da8$1@news.huji.ac.il>   hi all, I i have a vax running vms 5.5 it is all set up for my intranet but i can't 	 "get out" " where do i define gateway and DNS?7 is that all i need provided UCX is defined and running?    thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 10:24:41 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> % Subject: Re: defining internet on vms - Message-ID: <398C31B9.39EDE547@earthlink.net>    Ruku Soffer wrote: > 	 > hi all, K > i have a vax running vms 5.5 it is all set up for my intranet but i can't  > "get out" $ > where do i define gateway and DNS?9 > is that all i need provided UCX is defined and running?  >  > thanks  D Yeah - any TCP/IP box needs a default gateway(route). If you want toG reference things by name, then you'll also need to setup and enable the  name resolver (DNS client).   E The "how" depends on whether you're running Multinet, TCPware, UCX or  CMU/IP.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 16:12:49 GMT ) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) % Subject: Re: defining internet on vms ' Message-ID: <8mhee1$fmt$1@joe.rice.edu>   6 David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@earthlink.net) wrote: : Ruku Soffer wrote: : >  : > hi all, M : > i have a vax running vms 5.5 it is all set up for my intranet but i can't 
 : > "get out" & : > where do i define gateway and DNS?; : > is that all i need provided UCX is defined and running?  : > 
 : > thanks : F : Yeah - any TCP/IP box needs a default gateway(route). If you want toI : reference things by name, then you'll also need to setup and enable the  : name resolver (DNS client).  : G : The "how" depends on whether you're running Multinet, TCPware, UCX or 	 : CMU/IP.  :   . David, your caffeine level is getting low. :-)  
 Ruku said:  <    "is that all i need provided UCX is defined and running?"  0 Only the TCP/IP 5.0 documentation is online, at:  C   http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/6524/6524profile.HTML   L But that can be used in a pinch if one can mentally substitute "UCX$CONFIG" " where the 5.0 says "TCPIP$CONFIG".    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:55:43 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> % Subject: Re: defining internet on vms - Message-ID: <398C470F.3A5F2CDC@earthlink.net>    Jerry Leslie wrote:  > 8 > David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@earthlink.net) wrote: > : Ruku Soffer wrote: > : > 
 > : > hi all, O > : > i have a vax running vms 5.5 it is all set up for my intranet but i can't  > : > "get out" ( > : > where do i define gateway and DNS?= > : > is that all i need provided UCX is defined and running?  > : >  > : > thanks > : H > : Yeah - any TCP/IP box needs a default gateway(route). If you want toK > : reference things by name, then you'll also need to setup and enable the  > : name resolver (DNS client).  > : I > : The "how" depends on whether you're running Multinet, TCPware, UCX or  > : CMU/IP.  > :  > 0 > David, your caffeine level is getting low. :-)   *LOL* !    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:43:28 -0700 1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> ( Subject: Re: NEED A .JPG VIEWER FOR VMS.3 Message-ID: <398B7140.2527E56D@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>   B Is there a newer version of XV on VMS that can display progressive JPGs?     -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:57:37 -0700 1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> 9 Subject: Re: No Relay patch for MX 4.2 on Vax VMS 5.5-2 ? 3 Message-ID: <398B7491.193215A2@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>    Todd Wipke wrote:  > F > For any vax users out there that need the no relay patch for MX 4.2,C > here are the things I had to change from the install instructions  > H > So here are some of the problems I found that you might want to fix in  > the install instructions, etc.  J > 6. ALIAS must be removed from LOAD_RELAY.C everywhere, not recognized by >    Bliss 4.7 on vax.  =   I think you mean ALIAS must be removed from SMTP_SERVER.B32    -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 02:26:43 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: Quality( Message-ID: <8mgc01$rcd$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:398B4F3A.AD72A8D8@earthlink.net...  > Bill Todd wrote: > > D > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message+ > > news:398A036F.16D2719B@earthlink.net...  > [snip] > > > L > > > So, here's the toughie: How do you propose to reconcile such a glaring > > > disparity? > > K > > Don't have to.  I have no idea where you formed the impression that the F > > book's observations were obtained by polling customers rather than	 observing  > > their actual behavior. > J > For the purposes of this discussion, what the hell is the difference??!!  I If you can't see it (back-track a couple of posts and follow the thread),  I'm afraid you're on your own.   > ( > On second thought, let's examine that: > J > The Harvard people conclude - from their observations - that advertisingF > and marketing are ineffectual, but fail to acknowledge that the sameH > people who seem unaffected by advertising and marketing are themselvesD > pouring millions - if not billions - annually into advertising and > marketing. > , > Still sounds bogus to me. Care to comment?  K While it's hard not to believe that you're a total waste of time, I'll give  it one more shot:   D Neither the author nor I made any claim that advertising and similarH marketing were ineffectual in toto, just that they were not effective inH differentiating business products based even on real feature differencesL when these differences were not considered important by business customers -A as contrasted with your repeated assertions that "It's ALL in the  marketing!"   E Now, there are marginal areas in which it may be possible to convince I customers that something they weren't inclined to consider important does J merit their interest - which is why I said that advertising had *marginal*K impact beyond simply making customers aware of products and their features. H But it's also the case that there are products (disk drives are a commonL example in the book) which are *true* commodities where, beyond establishingK the general acceptability of the product and vendor, all the advertising in E the world can't make much difference, because the products really are  essentially interchangeable.  K Operating systems aren't commodities to the same degree, but they are to at I least a *significant* degree interchangeable (especially when building an F environment from scratch) and hence to *some* degree undifferentiable,F despite real feature differences - as long as those differences aren'tC perceived as significant by the market.  And differences that *are* B perceived as significant - such as VMS's unfamiliarity and lack ofF applications compared with Windows and Unix - can't be papered over by@ marketing in areas where VMS's unique features aren't important.   > 2 > > But then again I don't know where most of your > > misimpressions come from.  > J > Yeah. Lotsa folks - including some Harvard Business School people - seem& > to find common sense rather elusive.  E Likely seems that way because you equate your own preconceptions with L 'common sense' rather than subjecting them (and the statements you so glibly1 disagree with) to any kind of competent analysis.    - bill   >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 07:35:25 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)  Subject: Re: Quality5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-UYEPcewGQU5e@localhost>   F On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 03:15:28, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry  Kilgallen) wrote:    E > To date I have been unable to convince Brian he is wasting his time E > with taking C code from Unix and instead should be writing Ada from 
 > scratch :-)   C I've never wriiten a line ofADA in my life. I have read some tho'.  E However, I didn't want to poke at the Ada mythology, I wanted to ask  C Brian if he always did HOL VMS in C or did he start with something   else?     Cheers - Dave.  = PS I share the frustration of 'good enough' attitudes to s/w   development.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:59:56 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: Quality> Message-ID: <80256932.003CA8E4.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote:J >>>Did you consider reverse engineering the design spec of these apps thenM re-implemeting them on VMS using VMS techniques and concepts. You never know, I you might end up with more hair, and more reliable apps, and more time on % your hands, and less support load.<<<    WELL SAID THAT MAN!!!!!   " Sorry, the shouting was necessary. Steve.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:19:50 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE236.019CC8D5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-UYEPcewGQU5e@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: G >On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 03:15:28, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry   >Kilgallen) wrote: > F >> To date I have been unable to convince Brian he is wasting his timeF >> with taking C code from Unix and instead should be writing Ada from >> scratch :-) > D >I've never wriiten a line ofADA in my life. I have read some tho'. F >However, I didn't want to poke at the Ada mythology, I wanted to ask D >Brian if he always did HOL VMS in C or did he start with something  >else?  G I was about to reply to Larry's little jest when I got through catching G up on "the morning's news", but this seems like a better starting place  to comment.   G I avoided C as long as I could but there are realities, however strange F that they may be, and I had to start using it.  When I started writingG code on VMS, digital was promoting Fortran as the language for develop- G ment on VMS.  Yeah, yeah, that was a  l o n g  time ago!  I did Fortran F and Macro for about 6 years working on a large project for the US NavyH (NAVAIR).  There were some doing 'C' at the time for *fun* but that was F not a language -- at that time -- sanctioned/permitted for developmentF for jobs stemming from the defense dept.  I then worked for a time forG GE (AstroSpace) on the ill-fated Mars Observer.  That was Ada.  Lots of F effort/emphasis was put into the OOD aspects and there were members ofF the staff that served as Ada/OOD mentors.  I actually hit it off quiteE well with the chief mentor.  I didn't last too long at GE because the F politics of the RCA takeover and the micro-management mindset of every; aspect of the project were driving me crazy.  Off to ARL.     F There I did C only because, as a research lab, there were no tight re-F strictions placed on 'sanctioned' lingos.  Folks all around were hack-F ing up 'C' code like an avid cigarette smoker hacks up morning phlegm;F gross and ugly.  I spent much of my time 'righting' C code amidst modsF to and development of specialized device drivers and other system pro-F gramming.  While there, along came Alpha.  DEC's bundespiel was that CG was the only way to go with Alpha.  Didn't stop me though, as Macro is  G available and works just fine on Alpha.  I spent a lot of time learning F a few porting tricks there (nearly all Macro32) and did little of C onF the Alphas.  There was little time, though, were I could crash and an-F alyze kernel hacks.  Fortunately, at that time, there were folks aboutF the internet offering access to their Alphas for just such purposes --- Hunter's and Edud's machines were welcomed.     ( That was the early years through 1994...  H Today, most of my code is C, Macro32 and an occasional few Macro64 bits.H UPShot ( http://www.tmesis.com/apc/registration.htmlx ) is almost entir-H ely C with Macro32 handling the communications to the UPS.  It is multi-F threaded via the pthread library and I'd expect it would have been un-G due effort to write it in anything but C (even thought the Macro32 com- G munications module is a thread and invokes a few of the pthread calls).   H Most of my time is still spent 'righting' code and that code was sourcedG in C as the predominant 'HOL' and macro for the drivers.  There is some D Basic (bleeachk!) and even less Fortran and a smattering of Bliss.     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ... who will be 28 tomorrow ...    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:39:25 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE238.BE5A0920@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <80256932.003CA8E4.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:  >  >  >Tim Llewellyn wrote: K >>>>Did you consider reverse engineering the design spec of these apps then N >re-implemeting them on VMS using VMS techniques and concepts. You never know,J >you might end up with more hair, and more reliable apps, and more time on& >your hands, and less support load.<<< >v >WELL SAID THAT MAN!!!!! >v# >Sorry, the shouting was necessary.  >Steve.l  K Sage advice.  Please give me a URL of a site which maintains "design specs" J for "freeware" -- I'd really love it if you'd point me to at least one for# the freeware apps I want to port.      --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 08:11:47 -0400O/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)r Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8mh0a3$ujl$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <009EE238.BE5A0920@SendSpamHere.ORG>,> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:b >In article <80256932.003CA8E4.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes: >> >> >>Tim Llewellyn wrote:L >>>>>Did you consider reverse engineering the design spec of these apps thenO >>re-implemeting them on VMS using VMS techniques and concepts. You never know,aK >>you might end up with more hair, and more reliable apps, and more time onh' >>your hands, and less support load.<<<< >> >>WELL SAID THAT MAN!!!!!u >>$ >>Sorry, the shouting was necessary. >>Steve. > L >Sage advice.  Please give me a URL of a site which maintains "design specs"K >for "freeware" -- I'd really love it if you'd point me to at least one foro$ >the freeware apps I want to port.   >   ; Uh, Brian, he said "reverse engineering the design spec".  s  F I would love it if more people did just as Tim are recommending.  SomeF excellent VMS-specific apps have grown up with people engineering themB from the ground up to be VMS.  Like the WASD Web server, MadGoat's
 MGFTP and MX.    >--:P >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.comi   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 09:44:03 -0400q/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)- Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8mh5n3$2mc$1@lisa.gemair.com>  . In article <1t7H08tAhV6n@tachxxsoftxxconsult>,> Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223> wrote:] >In article <8meh04$pub$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:i >> .: >> I'm fairly certain that Brian had tools at his disposal> >> to find those errors on any of the "myriad flavors of Unix"! >> that he might have been using.  >> - >-E >He's not using any kind of unix.  He doesn't want to use unix.  He'skJ >complaining about the people who did use unix and didn't use any of these >marvelous tools.@ >s  A I see that I misunderstood Brian.  I thought when he referred to u? Unix C compilers as brain damaged and complained about 10 hourse= lost he was complaining about trying to debug some code on a n> Unix system where the Unix compilers didn't give him warnings.: I thought he was showing how with DECC these warnings were6 immediately obvious and would have saved him 10 hours.  ? Go back and read it and you could see where I might have gottenS that impression.   >a >>  4 >> It appeared to me that Brian was making an unfair3 >> indictment on all Unix developers as being loosef >> and careless.   > I >He didn't say all unix developers were lose and careless.  He said everyeN >package he has tried to compile was full of stupid errors that shouldn't haveL >been there.  My experience has been the same.  Maybe we are somehow pickingL >only the packages developed by idiots.  Who knows?  We are simply reporting >what we found.    >-  G Now, I didn't see anything in Brian's post like that.  For convenience,iB here is Brian's post (edited to remove what he was responding to):  p In article <009EE10E.7F80C447@SendSpamHere.ORG>, "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-"<system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >>[snip]*>..and while you're at it, let's cripple the C compiler so it too is brain damaged, if not more so, than the C compilers on the myriad flavors of the unix O/S.  Why, just today alone, I could have saved about 10 hours if the DECC compiler would simply permit "quality" C coding techniques such as:  > + >static int mumble (mumble, mumble, mumble)i >  { >    ... >  } rV >%CC-W-MISSINGRETURN, Non-void function "mumble" does not contain a return   statement > 	 >...or...  >  >%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value "mumble" is "char", which is not compatible with "int".  > 	 >...or...  > q >%CC-W-CVTDIFTYPES, In this statement, "mumble" of type "pointer to unnamed struct", is being converted to "int".a > 	 >...or...o > t >%CC-E-NEEDLVALUE, In the initializer for mumble, "1" is not an lvalue, but   occurs in a context that requires one. >  >...or...  4 > % >    (and this one's my all time fav)i > , >    char digits[9] = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; >......................^Z >%CC-E-TOOMANY, In the initializer for digits, there are 10 elements, which is 1 too many. >  >  >Need I say more?  These all came from that "quality" "it works on unix" freeware pool you want to see ported to VMS!  The actual names have been changed to 'mumble' to protect the ignorant. >  >--rP >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   -----f  A I hope you can see where I was confused.  Brian only specifically5< complained about C compilers on Unix systems.  There was an : implication that the code from this "Freeware Pool" was of
 poor quality.i   >C >s( >>I showed where Unix typically provides- >> as strict checking as you find anywhere.  a > / >Not relevant if the peckerhead doesn't use it.n >b >>I can find6 >> numerous references to Unix experts who will advise1 >> that you always run your code through lint (orw0 >> equivalent) to catch these kinds of things.   > K >The peckerhead didn't do it.  It doesn't matter that he could have.  We're O >complaining that he didn't.  If he had, the errors Brian was complaining abouti >wouldn't have been there. >g >>I 7 >> think an indictment of Unix tools as allowing sloppy-7 >> programming is unfair.  It's the user, not the tool.2 >0L >We've been saying it's the user all along.  The indictment is against thoseP >half-assed programmers that don't use these wonderful tools and distribute code >full of moronic errors. > L >The main difference is that dec c does most of this checking by default, soI >even if one *is* a peckerhead he will at least find out about the error.0 >:  G I explained this elsewhere.  The Unix philosophy has traditionally beenRI to provide extensive checking in a separate pass that was done outside of2H the edit-compile-debug cycle.  This made sense in the days when machinesE and compilers were slower and may still be worthwhile when compiling g large bodies of code.t  H I agree that those days are over and that stringent checks should now beB the default.  On the other hand, these checks have, at least, beenG _available_ for over 20 years on Unix systems.  It's only recently that I DECC has provided all the checks a good lint or "gcc -Wall" will provide.S  F It seems it is the DECC/OpenVMS people who finally learned their value; from those Unix people everyone seems to want to criticize.0   >m >-- P >===============================================================================N >Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx; >http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  :L >change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)P >===============================================================================Q >Woody Allen, in Sleeper: "I'm not the heroic type.  I was beaten up by Quakers."    -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.comf   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:10:37 GMTp= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)v Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE24D.DD3F05A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <8mh5n3$2mc$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:/ >In article <1t7H08tAhV6n@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, ? >Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223> wrote:t^ >>In article <8meh04$pub$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes: >>> ; >>> I'm fairly certain that Brian had tools at his disposals? >>> to find those errors on any of the "myriad flavors of Unix" " >>> that he might have been using. >>>  >>F >>He's not using any kind of unix.  He doesn't want to use unix.  He'sK >>complaining about the people who did use unix and didn't use any of theseb >>marvelous tools. >> >TB >I see that I misunderstood Brian.  I thought when he referred to @ >Unix C compilers as brain damaged and complained about 10 hours> >lost he was complaining about trying to debug some code on a ? >Unix system where the Unix compilers didn't give him warnings.e; >I thought he was showing how with DECC these warnings werei7 >immediately obvious and would have saved him 10 hours.t  L No, I'm working with source code born on unix platforms and that purport to L both build and function on these platforms.  Yet fundamental C language-ismsL appear to have been violated.  True this is poor code, but also contend thatK the compilers should not have permitted it and thus, my railing of the unixn compilers.    K The general consensus has been that the code should be 'lint'ed, corrected, J and then compiled.  My problem is trying to figure out what SHOULD be hap-J pening when the first two steps of this process have been circumvented.  IJ also find it difficult to believe that these compilers could generate code+ with some of the errors I have encountered.i  K I've been struggling for months with one GNU package that was, at one time,.J ported to and working on VMS.  The GNU crowd never merged the changes intoJ the main baseline prejudicially wishing not to have VMS taint the pristineI unixy stature of the source; thus, the later versions of the code are now I a bear to get ported and trying to get the original ported changes merged-J back into the code I possess is wrought with perils.  I'll save comment on1 the psycho-autoconfigure crap for another thread.:   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 11:52:50 -04003/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)o Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8mhd8i$85p$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <009EE24D.DD3F05A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>,> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > L >The general consensus has been that the code should be 'lint'ed, corrected,K >and then compiled.  My problem is trying to figure out what SHOULD be hap- K >pening when the first two steps of this process have been circumvented.  ImK >also find it difficult to believe that these compilers could generate codei, >with some of the errors I have encountered. >   E I bet that DECC would generate code for most or all of that same code A (modula obvious porting problems) if you turned off the warnings.i  K The primary difference between DECC and gcc in this regard is the defaults,hH I think you'll find.  And almost all of the Unix Freeware and ALL of the* GNU stuff compiles in _some_ way with gcc.  L >I've been struggling for months with one GNU package that was, at one time,K >ported to and working on VMS.  The GNU crowd never merged the changes intoeK >the main baseline prejudicially wishing not to have VMS taint the pristinew >unixy stature of the source;   F Are you sure that the maintainers rejected the VMS mods?  Or were theyD ever even submitted?  I know Stallman feels that VMS mods should be F integrated (witness Emacs), where possible.  The gzip maintainers alsoC graciously accepted VMS mods and these are distributed now with the  standard release.o  ? If GNU maintainers are rejecting VMS mods, then that's a shame.d> We should publicly complain about it in newsgroups like gnu.*.  J >                             thus, the later versions of the code are nowJ >a bear to get ported and trying to get the original ported changes mergedK >back into the code I possess is wrought with perils.  I'll save comment ono2 >the psycho-autoconfigure crap for another thread. >u >--"P >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   -Jordan Hendersonr jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 16:01:15 GMT.= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: Quality0 Message-ID: <009EE25D.522E088A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <8mhd8i$85p$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:1 >In article <009EE24D.DD3F05A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>,a? >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:u >>M >>The general consensus has been that the code should be 'lint'ed, corrected,rL >>and then compiled.  My problem is trying to figure out what SHOULD be hap-L >>pening when the first two steps of this process have been circumvented.  IL >>also find it difficult to believe that these compilers could generate code- >>with some of the errors I have encountered.  >> >kF >I bet that DECC would generate code for most or all of that same codeB >(modula obvious porting problems) if you turned off the warnings. >XL >The primary difference between DECC and gcc in this regard is the defaults,I >I think you'll find.  And almost all of the Unix Freeware and ALL of thel+ >GNU stuff compiles in _some_ way with gcc.e > M >>I've been struggling for months with one GNU package that was, at one time,rL >>ported to and working on VMS.  The GNU crowd never merged the changes intoL >>the main baseline prejudicially wishing not to have VMS taint the pristine >>unixy stature of the source; m >uG >Are you sure that the maintainers rejected the VMS mods?  Or were they E >ever even submitted?  I know Stallman feels that VMS mods should be  G >integrated (witness Emacs), where possible.  The gzip maintainers also.  H Pull down the lastest 20.something and tell me where the VMS support is?  D >graciously accepted VMS mods and these are distributed now with the >standard release. >l@ >If GNU maintainers are rejecting VMS mods, then that's a shame.? >We should publicly complain about it in newsgroups like gnu.*.c  E A similar thread several months ago contained a few posts from otherse# that have experience GNU rejection.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMy   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:45:10 -0500) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>w Subject: Re: Quality. Message-ID: <sooh20hc4s116@corp.supernews.com>  5 "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.company> wrote / in message news:8mhd8i$85p$1@lisa.gemair.com...  > H > Are you sure that the maintainers rejected the VMS mods?  Or were theyE > ever even submitted?  I know Stallman feels that VMS mods should be H > integrated (witness Emacs), where possible.  The gzip maintainers alsoE > graciously accepted VMS mods and these are distributed now with then > standard release.o > A > If GNU maintainers are rejecting VMS mods, then that's a shame.c@ > We should publicly complain about it in newsgroups like gnu.*.  * I am not sure how productive that will be.  K In some cases I have encountered resistance from the VMS maintainers of GNU=, code to put in needed fixes or enhancements.  K Some of the times there are slow responses as these people actually seem toe< have a priority of getting work done for paying clients. :-)  L The biggest problem with the UN*X maintainers of VMS specific stuff in theirK ports, is when they make a major revision, they do not know what to do with= the #ifdef __VMS stuff.A  I I think for the GNU stuff, each operating platform needs to have it's own H maintainer that has a good relationship with who ever is maintaining the master version.0  J I have had mixed results with reporting this stuff to the SAMBA team.  TwoL conditions (buffer overrun and an uninitalized pointer) are now fixed in the7 2.0.7 release because they showed up in my VMS testing.@  K The SAMBA team is intent on having their code compile on all platforms withnK out generating warnings, and the 2.0.6 (+official patches I submitted) willmD compile with only two informational messages about inconsistant signC handling on the DEC C 6.0 with the qualifiers /WARN=(ENABLE=LEVEL4,d
 QUESTCODE)  G I am still reluctant to submit VMS specific patches to them, especiallynJ since I have not actually release a functional port, Instead I use various< techniques to keep the VMS specific stuff in it's own files.  L As such I only have two cases where I have an #ifdef __VMS in the UNIX basedL code that I will need to track when I synchronize up to the current version.   -Johnt wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:52:02 -0500f7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>r Subject: Re: Quality- Message-ID: <398C4632.5C7B269F@earthlink.net>i   Bill Todd wrote: > B > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message) > news:398B4F3A.AD72A8D8@earthlink.net...t [snip] > >e* > > On second thought, let's examine that: > >hL > > The Harvard people conclude - from their observations - that advertisingH > > and marketing are ineffectual, but fail to acknowledge that the sameJ > > people who seem unaffected by advertising and marketing are themselvesF > > pouring millions - if not billions - annually into advertising and > > marketing. > >t. > > Still sounds bogus to me. Care to comment? > M > While it's hard not to believe that you're a total waste of time, I'll givet > it one more shot:.  < I believe that's called "co-dependence" in the psych. world.  eF > Neither the author nor I made any claim that advertising and similarJ > marketing were ineffectual in toto, just that they were not effective inJ > differentiating business products based even on real feature differencesN > when these differences were not considered important by business customers -  > Well, that should be obvious to even the most casual observer.  @ One of the purposes of marketing, however, is to illustrate thatF "features" viewed as unimportant are, in fact, of more import than the subject(s) may consider.  E In effect, then, all the study is saying that current advertising andhD marketing methods appear to have less effect on purchasing decisions8 than was intended by the advertisers and marketers. Yes?  C > as contrasted with your repeated assertions that "It's ALL in ther
 > marketing!"e  F Marketing is the key to the door. Unless that door is open, you may asG well be invisible, IMO. What do you know on this score that I don't? Is A there some clairvoyance that allows people to somehow "magically" D acquire knowledge of new (or old) products/services, before they are marketed or announced?  -G > Now, there are marginal areas in which it may be possible to convinceDK > customers that something they weren't inclined to consider important doesGL > merit their interest - which is why I said that advertising had *marginal*M > impact beyond simply making customers aware of products and their features.B  H If an ad, commercial, etc. brings a product to the prospects' attention,G I'd call that a "marginal" impact. If that attention brings the productDA into consideration, I'd call that MORE than marginal, whether theo product is chosen or not.w  A ...but that's just me. I can make prospects aware of a product oriD service ("You can lead a horse to water..."); however, I can't forceH people to choose one product or service over another ("...but can't makeH him drink"). In the end, at the very least, I've shown them "a new waterH hole". Hardly what I'd consider "marginal". Next time they're "thirsty",F perhaps they'll remember the guy who "showed them a new water hole". I% don't consider that marginal, either.t  G Again, though, that's just me. YMMV considerably, and in fact, probablys does.e  J > But it's also the case that there are products (disk drives are a commonN > example in the book) which are *true* commodities where, beyond establishingM > the general acceptability of the product and vendor, all the advertising in G > the world can't make much difference, because the products really aren > essentially interchangeable.  A O.k. Now, ask yourself: if an ad leaves a lasting impression in a D prospect's mind ("Winston taste good like a _________ ______!"), are8 they more likely to consider THAT product vs. any other?  G No matter how much anyone may try to deny it, that's how the human mind>@ works. The "impact" is not "effective" 100% of the time, but theG "effect" is undeniable. To say anything else is to say that advertisingmE is the ultimate waste of money. If that were the case, the people whovC buy 16-20 out of every 60 minutes of prime-time TV air time are theo# biggest money wasters in the world.w  F ...and yes, before you say it, this *IS* true even for those folks who? are advertising "commodity" products! The word "mind-share" wasp "invented" for a reason.  ' > Operating systems aren't commodities    D If "commodity", in this context, is taken to mean "low cost, readilyD available" (or "a dime a dozen", tailing off of your mention of diskC drives), then see the Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page for ah discussion of that topic.e  ( > to the same degree, but they are to atK > least a *significant* degree interchangeable (especially when building anoH > environment from scratch) and hence to *some* degree undifferentiable,H > despite real feature differences - as long as those differences aren't* > perceived as significant by the market.   H Our goal, then, is to raise the prospects' awareness of the significanceF of such differences (reliability, security, stability, etc.), while at> the same time minimizing the impact of such perceptions as ...   > And differences that *are*D > perceived as significant - such as VMS's unfamiliarity and lack ofD                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H > applications compared with Windows and Unix - can't be papered over by   ^^^^^^^^^^^^B > marketing in areas where VMS's unique features aren't important.   See the difference now?a  F ...and yes, *THAT* *IS* *ALL* in the marketing, presentation, ... callC it what you will! The "lack of applications" piece can be minimizedtE (among other ways) by stressing OpenVMS's focus as a high-end server,pH and not as a desktop or even a tier-2 element. The question of "quality"& vs. "quantity" should be obvious here.  C > > 4 > > > But then again I don't know where most of your > > > misimpressions come from.k > >tL > > Yeah. Lotsa folks - including some Harvard Business School people - seem( > > to find common sense rather elusive. > G > Likely seems that way because you equate your own preconceptions withzN > 'common sense' rather than subjecting them (and the statements you so glibly3 > disagree with) to any kind of competent analysis.e  ? I take it you understand the difference now between "perceived"e+ "pre-conceptions" and "competent analysis".f  G Yes, I *HAVE* thought this through - repeatedly, and *LONG* before this/ Harvard thing came along.t  F Do you find it easier to take academics at their word, and discard theF real life experience which has been part of everyday life for (how old
 are you?)?  E You may choose to accept it unquestioningly, for whatever reasons yout deem valid.m  > I do not so choose. "Common sense" (read: "life-long practical2 experience in diverse fields") dictates otherwise.   But then, what do I know?u   -- n David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:53:29 -0500) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>- Subject: Re: Quality. Message-ID: <soohhhs87s119@corp.supernews.com>  L If you could let us know what particular GNU package you are currently usingE to raise your blood pressure, maybe it could bring someone out of the21 woodwork that has some help full knowledge of it.e  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009EE24D.DD3F05A6@SendSpamHere.ORG... > 6 > I've been struggling for months with one GNU package6 > that was, at one time, ported to and working on VMS.1 > The GNU crowd never merged the changes into them5 > main baseline prejudicially wishing not to have VMSy; > taint the pristine unixy stature of the source; thus, theh9 > later versions of the code are now a bear to get portedt6 > and trying to get the original ported changes merged6 > back into the code I possess is wrought with perils.  4 > I'll save comment on the psycho-autoconfigure crap > for another thread.a   -Johno wb8ytw@qsl.network   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2000 13:26:12 -0400 / From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)0 Subject: Re: Quality* Message-ID: <8mhink$cg7$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <009EE25D.522E088A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:] >In article <8mhd8i$85p$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:i2 >>In article <009EE24D.DD3F05A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>,@ >>Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: >>>lN >>>The general consensus has been that the code should be 'lint'ed, corrected,M >>>and then compiled.  My problem is trying to figure out what SHOULD be hap-tM >>>pening when the first two steps of this process have been circumvented.  IeM >>>also find it difficult to believe that these compilers could generate codew. >>>with some of the errors I have encountered. >>>f >>G >>I bet that DECC would generate code for most or all of that same codehC >>(modula obvious porting problems) if you turned off the warnings.e >>M >>The primary difference between DECC and gcc in this regard is the defaults, J >>I think you'll find.  And almost all of the Unix Freeware and ALL of the, >>GNU stuff compiles in _some_ way with gcc. >>N >>>I've been struggling for months with one GNU package that was, at one time,M >>>ported to and working on VMS.  The GNU crowd never merged the changes intoiM >>>the main baseline prejudicially wishing not to have VMS taint the pristinel  >>>unixy stature of the source;  >>H >>Are you sure that the maintainers rejected the VMS mods?  Or were theyF >>ever even submitted?  I know Stallman feels that VMS mods should be H >>integrated (witness Emacs), where possible.  The gzip maintainers also >cI >Pull down the lastest 20.something and tell me where the VMS support is?a >m  C The reason Emacs 20 and 21 don't have VMS support is because nobodyeB has bothered to do the VMS mods for them.  I believe you'll still C find VMS #ifdefs there still from the 19 days in the latest source.a  A You can hardly expect the Emacs maintainers to go out and get an h? OpenVMS system and do that work.  It's really up to the OpenVMScA community to keep up with their changes, don't you think?  Nobodyp6 in the OpenVMS community has stepped forward to do it.  E >>graciously accepted VMS mods and these are distributed now with thel >>standard release.  >>A >>If GNU maintainers are rejecting VMS mods, then that's a shame.h@ >>We should publicly complain about it in newsgroups like gnu.*. >lF >A similar thread several months ago contained a few posts from others$ >that have experience GNU rejection. >w  / I didn't see that.  If it's true, it's too bad.n   >--aP >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   -Jordan Hendersont jordan@greenapple.comp   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 00:02:58 +1000 4 From: Huw Davies <Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au>1 Subject: Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"eF Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000805235932.0243c100@kerberos.davies.net.au>  * At 11:08 28/07/00 +0000, Alan Greig wrote:  B >I have litle faith in the software or people implementing some of >these systems here in the UK.  H I can only agree. I was in the UK a couple of weeks ago and I hired (at I vast expense) a hire car for the day. It had a traffic monitoring system  H which relayed messages indicating traffic problems on the current route = (I've forgotten the name but it's something like TrafficMon).o  G On the way to Manchester Airport it duely told me that that there were yF significant delays on the M5 and that the A5 would be a better route. H Ignoring these dire warnings, I discovered that the computer system had 8 "cried wolf". Gives lot of confidence in the technology.    @ Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au?                       | "If God had wanted soccer played in they=                       | air, the sky would be painted green" e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 02:24:02 -0700w1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>.; Subject: Re: Updated FORRTL_TV - Translated VAX Fortran RTLR3 Message-ID: <398B7AC2.5A36C233@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>    Steve Lionel wrote:t > E > As some of you are aware, there has been a problem with VAX FortranwH > programs translated by DECmigrate (VAX) and run on Alpha, where if youA > install OpenVMS Alpha 7.2 or Compaq Fortran 7.2 (or later), theeC > translated programs stop working (typically, they get an ACCVIO.)c   > [...]   C > The solution I have implemented is to simply translate the latestm= > version of the VAX Fortran RTL, eliminating support for theeG > cross-architecture I/O.   An added advantage of this approach is thatrE > the new translated RTL is compatible with VAX Fortran V6 and later,rE > and supports the non-native data in I/O feature.  Note however that H > the math library has NOT been updated to include new routines that theG > V6 compiler used, so you would have to compile with /MATH_LIBRARY=V5.h  G   This is great news!  Another problem in upgrading to V7.2 is removed!   '   Now, how about that math library? ;->;    uC > A kit to install the updated translated FORRTL_TV is available attL > ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/fortran/OpenVMS/FORRTL_TV-T0100-1.zipexe  H   I couldn't find this file, I suppose you mean FORRTL_TV-T0600-1.ZIPEXE   --L Vance Haemmerle                         Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US2 Tucson, AZ                                        L http://condor.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/   NSI-SPAN/HEPNET 47540::TOYVAX::VANCE   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 20:16:06 -0400i* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS- Message-ID: <398B5CC6.1CCED3E3@tsoft-inc.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > J >   Multi-user interactive user support, full shared-resources clustering,I >   uptime, robust file system with individual volume limits circa one TBbG >   (and thousands of volumes), huge system performance and applicationcE >   scaling, networked GUI interface, 64-bit flat virtual addressing,rG >   built-in tools for local BACKUP and recovery, far better "DLL-like"eL >   support for modular coding and distributions, built-in record managementI >   support (heirarchical database), rolling upgrades of layered products H >   and the operating system in cluster environments (continuous uptime,L >   even with software upgrades), built-in batch-print capabilities, supportK >   for a variety of networking protocols (COM, SMB, NFS, IP, DECnet, X.25, O >   http, etc), remote network system logins, built-in system dump and analysisiL >   facilities, built-in multi-user security and auditing, built-in multipleN >   and mixed-language programming capabilities, good documentation, orderableM >   CD-ROM source listings of the operating system internals and source code,tN >   process and engineering that targets the avoidance of introducing securityM >   problems and typical virus infection paths, built-in system tuning tools,rJ >   built-in application debugging and application dump tools, support forG >   symmetric multiprocessing environments of up to 32 CPUs in a single H >   system (and up to 96+ nodes in a cluster), built-in standard productK >   installation tools and associated product installation packaging tools, H >   a central goal of upward-compatibility of user-mode applications andJ >   tools over OpenVMS releases, support for systems with 256 gigabytes ofI >   physical memory, available full operating system and hardware supports >   from a single source, etc.  @ And you said that all in one breath, no pauses? Impressive!  :-)   Dave   -- t4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:41:11 +0100. From: David Skinner <david3@drspc.demon.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS0 Message-ID: <w3vuHWAH9+i5EwIx@drspc.demon.co.uk>   Yes, but, apart from...n  J >  Multi-user interactive user support, full shared-resources clustering, H >  uptime, robust file system with individual volume limits circa one TBG >  (and thousands of volumes), huge system performance and application -E >  scaling, networked GUI interface, 64-bit flat virtual addressing,  G >  built-in tools for local BACKUP and recovery, far better "DLL-like" 3L >  support for modular coding and distributions, built-in record management I >  support (heirarchical database), rolling upgrades of layered products  H >  and the operating system in cluster environments (continuous uptime, L >  even with software upgrades), built-in batch-print capabilities, support K >  for a variety of networking protocols (COM, SMB, NFS, IP, DECnet, X.25, iO >  http, etc), remote network system logins, built-in system dump and analysis  L >  facilities, built-in multi-user security and auditing, built-in multiple N >  and mixed-language programming capabilities, good documentation, orderable M >  CD-ROM source listings of the operating system internals and source code, mM >  process and engineering that targets the avoidance of introducing securitynL >  problems and typical virus infection paths, built-in system tuning tools,J >  built-in application debugging and application dump tools, support for F >  symmetric multiprocessing environments of up to 32 CPUs in a singleH >  system (and up to 96+ nodes in a cluster), built-in standard product K >  installation tools and associated product installation packaging tools, yH >  a central goal of upward-compatibility of user-mode applications and J >  tools over OpenVMS releases, support for systems with 256 gigabytes of I >  physical memory, available full operating system and hardware support r >  from a single source, etc.  > L >  Continuous OpenVMS system uptimes of over ten years are not unheard of.  K >  Some of these systems -- those configured in clusters -- can be running oE >  current OpenVMS releases, with very long cluster uptimes, with thep >  rolling-upgrade capabilties.r  & ...what have the Romans ever given us?   -- f
 David Skinnera   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:56:27 +0100e  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS> Message-ID: <80256932.003C4DEC.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>  - So how might this be applied to CA then? :-))   ) Koloth (koloth at tmisnet dot com) wrote:fO >>>Compare this model to companies that license the software and also charge antL annual maintenance fee.  This annual fee allowed the company to fix bugs andP provide new features.  The software from these companies from my experience tend  to be of much higher quality.<<<   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:34:59 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)r  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS0 Message-ID: <009EE238.1FC3D09A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <w3vuHWAH9+i5EwIx@drspc.demon.co.uk>, David Skinner <david3@drspc.demon.co.uk> writes:m >i >Yes, but, apart from... >sK >>  Multi-user interactive user support, full shared-resources clustering,  I >>  uptime, robust file system with individual volume limits circa one TBMH >>  (and thousands of volumes), huge system performance and application F >>  scaling, networked GUI interface, 64-bit flat virtual addressing, H >>  built-in tools for local BACKUP and recovery, far better "DLL-like" M >>  support for modular coding and distributions, built-in record management aJ >>  support (heirarchical database), rolling upgrades of layered products I >>  and the operating system in cluster environments (continuous uptime, iM >>  even with software upgrades), built-in batch-print capabilities, support  L >>  for a variety of networking protocols (COM, SMB, NFS, IP, DECnet, X.25, P >>  http, etc), remote network system logins, built-in system dump and analysis M >>  facilities, built-in multi-user security and auditing, built-in multiple  O >>  and mixed-language programming capabilities, good documentation, orderable eN >>  CD-ROM source listings of the operating system internals and source code, N >>  process and engineering that targets the avoidance of introducing securityM >>  problems and typical virus infection paths, built-in system tuning tools,cK >>  built-in application debugging and application dump tools, support for mG >>  symmetric multiprocessing environments of up to 32 CPUs in a singleaI >>  system (and up to 96+ nodes in a cluster), built-in standard product mL >>  installation tools and associated product installation packaging tools, I >>  a central goal of upward-compatibility of user-mode applications and  K >>  tools over OpenVMS releases, support for systems with 256 gigabytes of aJ >>  physical memory, available full operating system and hardware support  >>  from a single source, etc. c >>M >>  Continuous OpenVMS system uptimes of over ten years are not unheard of.   L >>  Some of these systems -- those configured in clusters -- can be running F >>  current OpenVMS releases, with very long cluster uptimes, with the  >>  rolling-upgrade capabilties. >f( >....what have the Romans ever given us?  + ... what have the Romans ever done for us? c   Brought peace? a   Oh, peace! Shut up!    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 08:08:47 -0400n2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS7 Message-ID: <200008050809_MC2-AEAB-CA79@compuserve.com>a  J         I thought CA's business model was "Your money or your life?"!!!!!=    ; Message text written by INTERNET:steven.reece@quintiles.com- >     - So how might this be applied to CA then? :-))m  ) Koloth (koloth at tmisnet dot com) wrote:"E >>>Compare this model to companies that license the software and alsoh	 charge an H annual maintenance fee.  This annual fee allowed the company to fix bugs and J provide new features.  The software from these companies from my experien= ce tend  to be of much higher quality.<<< <o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:50:50 -0400t* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?e- Message-ID: <398B56DA.9A1D818B@tsoft-inc.com>p   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > Jonathan McCormack wrote:    > > Jonathan7 > > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)/  L Well, I can see this good ol' boy has never seen a VAX 8600 or VAX 8650. :-)  = Never saw a 9000, so I don't know how big they (it) were/was.o   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 11:48:49 +0200m? From: Fim =?iso-8859-1?Q?W=E4stberg?= <fim.wastberg@fimator.se>P; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?-* Message-ID: <398BE301.5F58161F@fimator.se>  O I have an Alpha workstation XL266 with this "half flashed" system with just ARCQW loaded and I can run just Win Nt. Now I want to run VMS and I have tried  to switch theaQ console program from ARC to SRM by loading the flash memory from the ARC-console.t- But I was not successful. Here are the steps:   n A FAT-diskette with the program fwupdate.exe, that is SRM firmware file AS200_V7_0.EXE renamed, in the floppy.. In the ARC-console menu: "Supplementary menu",  and then "Install new firmware".E The answer is "Searching for the update tool on CD-rom and floppy..."oL The led on the floppy is flashing and after some seconds there is a message:= "Error: No such file or directory, press any key to continue"y  # Is anybody knowing what is wrong ??a       Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  ~ > In article <vGAi5.843$pS6.10099@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Jonathan McCormack" <McCormackJ@BelfastCity.Gov.UK> writes:O > >After the great Compaq "stab NT Alpha in the back" debacle it was decided tod& > >decommission our only NT Alpha Box. > >-K > >I've decided to get my hands on it before anyone else does, so the basice > >questions are.n > >n  > >1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it? > I > Of course. Good choice anyway. btw: go directly to OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1e: > if you can get the media (eg. copying it from a friend). > D > You didn't tell us what options you have in your AlphaServer so weF > can't tell you if they run with OpenVMS. You also need to switch theK > console program from ARC to SRM (maybe you also need to fill the SRM into:A > the flash memory first - if it's only a "half flashed" system).l >'/ > >2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can?  >t& > Become a DECUS member and then go to >>+ >         http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/e >h' > >3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there?i >i > Yes. >bI > All of this questions have been asked here before umpteen times, so yousH > better check the VMS FAQ (in the VMS wizard zone) and a USENET archive0 > (DEJA.COM, REMARQ.COM, ...) before continuing. >t0 >         http://www.openvms.digital.com/wizard/ >> > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888w> > FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"P > "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   --# Med vnliga hlsningar/Best regardse
 FIMATOR AB Fim Wstberg CPIM E ---------------------------------------------------------------------? Box 63 177 22  JRFLLA SWEDEN- Tel   : 08 580 277 00 Abroad +46 8 580 277 00hE Fax   : 08 584 116 90        +46 8 584 116 90 <=== NEW per 1-Feb-2000., Mobil : 070 810 73 91        +46 7 810 73 91 e-mail: fim.wastberg@fimator.se    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:28:45 GMTm+ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com.nospam>V; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?a0 Message-ID: <398C24BF.49B79FE6@wi.rr.com.nospam>   Jonathan McCormack wrote:   
 > Jonathan5 > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)o  B I agree with David Froble.  The 1000A isn't that big at all.  I've? got a few at work.  We've got some Dell servers that are nearly 1 the same size and they weigh more than the 1000A.>  = The AlphaServer 2100s were easily bigger than the 1000A line.d% Try carrying a 2100 to your car.  ;^)u  3 BTW, we went through the same migration  NT --> VMS 7 with our 1000As.  I have them running VMS and clustereds8 over FDDI.  One of the boxes has an uptime over 400 days& without a reboot.  Nice little system.  
 -Scott :^)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 10:27:27 -0500S7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> ; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2, Message-ID: <398C325F.F36D2C4@earthlink.net>   David A Froble wrote:c >  > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > >i > > Jonathan McCormack wrote:7 >  > > > Jonathan9 > > > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)A > N > Well, I can see this good ol' boy has never seen a VAX 8600 or VAX 8650. :-) > ? > Never saw a 9000, so I don't know how big they (it) were/was.U  F I never did, either, but think they were as tall as a 6000 and as wide; as an 8200/8300, usually found as a two- or three-bay rack.s  
 I think...   -- i David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 10:37:28 -0500t7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>a; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?e- Message-ID: <398C34B8.6ED7154C@earthlink.net>    Scott Vieth wrote: >  > Jonathan McCormack wrote:  >  > > Jonathan7 > > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)  > D > I agree with David Froble.  The 1000A isn't that big at all.  I'veA > got a few at work.  We've got some Dell servers that are nearly 3 > the same size and they weigh more than the 1000A.R > ? > The AlphaServer 2100s were easily bigger than the 1000A line.t' > Try carrying a 2100 to your car.  ;^)e > 5 > BTW, we went through the same migration  NT --> VMSm9 > with our 1000As.  I have them running VMS and clusteredX: > over FDDI.  One of the boxes has an uptime over 400 days( > without a reboot.  Nice little system.  C I was on an NT-Alpha job with Mark the other day. The machine was a H 1000A on a desktop (gotta put it someplace). We spent over 7 hours doingH what should have taken less than two. We could have put 'em up on OVMS +  MX + TCP/IP + etc. in less time.    Whaddaya want for NT + Exchange?   --   David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.435 ************************e to compile with /MATH_LIBRARY=V5kt$'oIst0$[%R&>J<&
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