1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 09 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 442       Contents: Re: Affordable: A Clarification - Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working - Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working 2 Re: DCPS victory / Tek Phaser 850 (Was: DCPS woes) Re: disable spawn in VMSMail? * Get Certified! - Over 600 questions online( Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha( Re: How to fake a device full situation.) More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus) P My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/P Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000P Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000P Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With AnAlphaServer 1000A1 Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ? 1 Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ? 1 Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ? 8 Re: QUIT SMOKING IN 7 DAYS!! 96% SUCCESS RATE!! (130127) Re: Secure LYNX client for VMS RE: TELNET vs LAT speed  Re: TSM and multiple NICs  Re: TSM and multiple NICs  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS 2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?& Re: Wish List:  I/O vs. CPU Priorities  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:59:28 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)( Subject: Re: Affordable: A Clarification; Message-ID: <39903c70.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   + Peter LANGSTOEGER (eplan@kapsch.net) wrote: L : Most servers I know of started as a $1000 system and got upgraded over theJ : time. And only if they serve over say 500 users, the price of a Proliant= : is justified. So, we are comparing apples with lemons here.   B I doubt that. The upgrade process (a faster CPU, a new motherboardC to fit the new CPU socket, more memory, more & bigger disk, another E motherboard with SMP option, a second CPU, yet more memory, a 100MBit F ethernet card) probably makes the system over time more expensive than" the Proliant (and the DS systems).   cu,    Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de N One OS to bring them all      |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:24:11 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working; Message-ID: <L%Zj5.3946$pu4.327138@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>    Bob Kaplow said...   <snip>  J > A day later I got an email they my credit card number was invalid, and I had C > to send a new one. And the amount was the symposium only, not the 	 seminars. H > More email requesting an invoice so I can get a PO or have the company send
 > a check. > L > Since then they've sent me 3 emails caliming to be invoices, which had the > header, but no body. > K > Now they tell me they can't book my hotel room because the Holiday Inn is J > booked for the night of 6-October. But I don't need a room that night. I DOK > need a room the Saturday and Sunday prior to the two seminars I signed up = > for, but they don't seem to want to book those days for me.  > H > This whole process is FUBARed beyond anything I've ever dealt with. It makes # > dealing with HP or IBM look easy.  >   K I am told by a CETS2000 committeeperson that the solution to the problem is F to call the 800 number. POs apparently can be accommodated this way...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:43:27 -04007 From: "Information CETS2000" <Information@CETS2000.com> 6 Subject: Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working2 Message-ID: <8mqd0i$th3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>  H We understand the new system is not flexible enough yet.  The issues areJ being tracked and fix in the next release (CETS2001).  The safety value is to use the 800 number...       --     Jeff Killeen - www.Killeen.cc E ===================================================================== > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.decus.org.mars> wrote in message% news:cQcnXynGpMfJ@eisner.decus.org... 8 > In article <25JUL00.17573585@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>,6 karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:F > > In a previous article, kaplow_r@eisner.decus.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote: > > ->K > > ->The only option to get through the registration process is via credit  card. F > > ->What about those of us who need to register via company Purchase	 Order? In K > > ->the past I've filled out the hard copy form, had management sign off,  and ? > > ->our purchasing folks issue a PO, followed u with a check.  > > ->E > > ->How do you register this time if your company is paying for the 
 symposium? > > J > > If you check the box indicating you're a government organization, thenJ > > you'll get a choice of paying by a PO. No credit card number required. >  > J > I'm not a government organization. I work for a publicly traded company. But @ > NFW am I paying for DECUS\\\\\CETS on my personal credit card! > I > I finally did get a call back, and they asked me all the questions, and  put D > in a special phony credit card number so the registration would go through. > J > A day later I got an email they my credit card number was invalid, and I had C > to send a new one. And the amount was the symposium only, not the 	 seminars. H > More email requesting an invoice so I can get a PO or have the company send
 > a check. > L > Since then they've sent me 3 emails caliming to be invoices, which had the > header, but no body. > K > Now they tell me they can't book my hotel room because the Holiday Inn is J > booked for the night of 6-October. But I don't need a room that night. I DOK > need a room the Saturday and Sunday prior to the two seminars I signed up = > for, but they don't seem to want to book those days for me.  > H > This whole process is FUBARed beyond anything I've ever dealt with. It makes # > dealing with HP or IBM look easy.  > 8 > If this is the future, I want the old DECUs back. NOW! >  > Bob Kaplow > G > SPAM: spamrecycle@ChooseYourmail.com uce@ftc.gov postmaster@127.0.0.1    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Aug 2000 19:44:47 GMT # From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu ; Subject: Re: DCPS victory / Tek Phaser 850 (Was: DCPS woes) + Message-ID: <8mpnvf$9bg$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>   4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:= >Paul Anderson <pandersonNOpaSPAM@genicom.com.invalid> wrote:  >> Ken Fairfield wrote:  >> Robert Deininger wrote:  ? >> > In case anyone is keeping score, version 1.7 did NOT help.   C >> Try looking at the DCPS V1.8 Release Notes.  (Yes, DCPS V1.8 was D >> released on July 19 and should be appearing on the next Alpha and< >> VAX CDs.)  Contact me offline if you want a copy of them.  C >Well, the release notes for version 1.8 contained the secret.  The A >printer's AppSocket configuration has to have "filtering" set to D >"interpreter-based", just like the Tektronix Phaser 780  (11/780?).. >Not that Tek gives us a clue what that means. > @ >Thanks to Paul Anderson for making the release notes available. > B >I've managed to generate some postscript hairballs that make trayH >selection work, but they seem to execute somewhat slowly in the printer2 >compared to the output from the macintosh driver.  E Could you put those hairballs up on a web site or otherwise make them 
 available?  A >All the other DCPS features I've tested work all by themselves,  ! >including double-sided printing.  >  >--  >Robert Deininger  >rdeininger@mindspring.com   Robert the Postscript ignorant   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 22:38:08 GMT ) From: Lonny Balderston <lbalders@gte.net> & Subject: Re: disable spawn in VMSMail?# Message-ID: <39908CB9.2FBC@gte.net>   4 Thank you folks! One solution mentioned, turning off4 privilege tmpmbx, achieved my aim - to disable spawn3 in VMS mail, as it is a way for users to exit menus 4 to the DCL prompt. This solution does not interfere 6 with the application the that our machine is running, 9 and we only use local mail anyway. As for the respondant  8 who suggested talking to my system manager, I am he, and/ that's why I posted the question! Thanks again!      Lonny Balderston wrote:  > 1 > (previously posted on vmsnet.alpha 22-JUN-2000)  > 5 > Is there an easy way to disable the "spawn" command 8 > that can be found in in VMSMail? [new: without messing8 > with UAF flags. I have no control over the application7 > we are running, probably cannot change UAF parameters 8 > without causing problems. Just want to disable "spawn"/ > in VMS Mail. Alpha 4100 running VMS 7.1-1H1.]  >  > Thank you, Lonny Balderston   > email: lbalders at gte dot net   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:10:56 GMT  From: cd_root@my-deja.com 3 Subject: Get Certified! - Over 600 questions online ) Message-ID: <8mpifd$9tt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   E At Get Certified! we have over 600 OpenVMS related questions for both F the Alpha and VAX platforms.  Test your skills, expand your knowledge:  3      http://www.networkessentials.com/certified/vms   D We also have over 1,000 questions on Sun's Solaris operating system:  3      http://www.networkessentials.com/certified/sca   > And over 600 questions for Oracle Certified Professional's at:  3      http://www.networkessentials.com/certified/ocp    jc    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 15:09:52 -0600 1 From: Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> 1 Subject: Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha 4 Message-ID: <399022C0.72772F26@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>  " byer@cartman.ourservers.net wrote:  N > With the above kit one shouldn't have any problems compiling GTK+ with a preM > DEC C v6.2 compiler and I've been told that it also compiles as far back as  > DEC C v5.7  H Just so you know, the OpenVMS Porting library doesn't seem to be able toE build using DEC C V5.6-003 on OpenVMS Alpha V6.2, so it looks like we 1 have a lower bounds on how far back it will go...    $ gmake 3 %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image CMA$TIS_SHR  -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file5 VIOLET$DRA0:[SYS51.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]CMA$TIS_SHR.EXE : -SYSTEM-F-SHRIDMISMAT, ident mismatch with shareable image
 $ cc /version $ DEC C V5.6-003 on OpenVMS Alpha V6.2B $ anal/image VIOLET$DRA0:[SYS51.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]CMA$TIS_SHR.EXE [snip](         Image Identification Information  )                 image name: "CMA$TIS_SHR" :                 image file identification: "CMA V2.12-122"@                 image file build identification: "X61Q-SSB-0000"7                 link date/time:  4-MAY-1995 22:31:00.99 /                 linker identification: "A11-12" 0                                                    Glen   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 10:51:25 +0800 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> 1 Subject: Re: How to fake a device full situation. + Message-ID: <3990C72D.97466082@bigpond.com>    Uri Klil-Hahoresh wrote: > M > Concealed devices and directories are not use their own quota's so it won't K > help you. what you can do is create a big files with a big size that fill . > up your disk. use .fdl to control file-size. > < > Rienk Zwaagstra <r.zwaagstra@elsevier.nl> wrote in message- > news:965722177.943462@caiman.elsevier.nl... L > > For testing the error handling after a device full I need a full device.I > > Only I'm not able to fill up a device. Is there an other way like for I > > example creating a directory with a size limit or a concealed device?  > >  > >   C What I use is $ SHOW DEV <device> to see how many free blocks, then A $ MCR SYSGEN CREATE <device>[000000]RUBBISH.BIN/SIZE=<freeblocks>    --   Regards, Dave. I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I DBS software at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 04:21:50 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>2 Subject: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus)< Message-ID: <y%4k5.11237$_s1.212499@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  H >     Many were rebuilt and resold by a small group in Salem run by Dave	 > Mellor. K >     Rumour had it that many were sent to gov't addresses never to be seen  > again. :)   I Yep. No Such Agency's downlink in Alice Springs, Australia being one such K venue. I recall some Convex folks being way torqued off at DEC for some VAX H 9000 vs C-Series benchmarks... seems that the 9000 had a screw somewhereK inside it which enabled Field Service to crank up the clock speed. IIRC the J 9000 had a 15ns cycle time; the system used for the benchmark bake-off was cranked to 9ns.   J I believe that at least one water-cooled Aquarius prototype was built, butI DEC elected to say no to plumbers and instead went with air cooling. This ? cut the VUPpage down to ~21 from ~30 in the water-cooled model.   L The 9000 was not one of DEC's flaming successes. Total sales of 454 systems.G And many problems with the box... which came as no surprise given DEC's K decision to rely on unproven high density signal carrier (HDSC) technology.  A Risky VAX Scheme, it was!    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:27:59 +1000/ From: "Phil Howell" <howellp@snowyhydro.com.au> Y Subject: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/ 3 Message-ID: <cs2k5.79728$N4.2007409@ozemail.com.au>   5 David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message ' news:398B56DA.9A1D818B@tsoft-inc.com...  > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > >  > > Jonathan McCormack wrote:  >  > > > Jonathan9 > > > (dreading having to carry it to the car, it's huge)  > J > Well, I can see this good ol' boy has never seen a VAX 8600 or VAX 8650. :-) F One advantage of a dual cpu vax 8820 was that it was so tall operatorsH couldn't leave old tapes and stuff on top of the cabinets. We eventuallyL gave it away to a guy from decus in canberra who had to hire a truck to come and take it away.  Phil > ? > Never saw a 9000, so I don't know how big they (it) were/was.  >  > Dave >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com8 > T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:58:51 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000 < Message-ID: <LN3k5.10481$_s1.208811@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   > > A > > Never saw a 9000, so I don't know how big they (it) were/was.  > >   K Pretty damn big IIRC. Two of 'em side-by-side would be about the equivalent H of a 3-cabinet GS320. Of course, one GS320 is several hundred times more powerful than a VAX 9000...    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:08:03 -04006 From: "Michael A. Foley" <mike.foley@technologist.com>Y Subject: Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000 8 Message-ID: <aO4k5.452310$MB.6833711@news6.giganews.com>  F     Very big. Tall and HEAVY too! I had a 9000-440 (4 processor with 4 vector processors)K     in my cluster in VMS Development. We had to have the elevator inspected  and the 9     floor verified to ensure that it didn't fall thru. :)   H     It took forever to boot up (with the VAX 3500 starting the boot) but once it      got started, it flew.   F     Many were rebuilt and resold by a small group in Salem run by Dave Mellor. I     Rumour had it that many were sent to gov't addresses never to be seen 	 again. :)      mike    ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messageA6 news:LN3k5.10481$_s1.208811@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >d > > > C > > > Never saw a 9000, so I don't know how big they (it) were/was.E > > >R >sB > Pretty damn big IIRC. Two of 'em side-by-side would be about the
 equivalentJ > of a 3-cabinet GS320. Of course, one GS320 is several hundred times more > powerful than a VAX 9000...e >S >p   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 14:47:46 +1000 (EST)r. From: Huw Davies <cchd@kerberos.davies.net.au>Y Subject: Re: My vax was bigger than your vax (Was: What Can I Do With AnAlphaServer 1000AnM Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10008091446260.4107-100000@kerberos.davies.net.au>C  & On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Phil Howell wrote:  H > One advantage of a dual cpu vax 8820 was that it was so tall operators= > couldn't leave old tapes and stuff on top of the cabinets. L  J You must have had short operators - I used to keep lots of useful stuff onF top of our 8820s (at one stage we had 5, 2 on Digital maintenance, theB other three I looked after). On a good day you'd be able to find a; complete module set on top of at least one of the 8820s....h  ? Huw Davies          | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au =                     | "If God had wanted soccer played in ther;                     | air, the sky would be painted green"     ------------------------------   Date: 8 Aug 2000 17:17 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)o: Subject: Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ?, Message-ID: <8AUG200017173339@gerg.tamu.edu>  ! system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes...ah }In article <AoJybMe+Uc4n@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:r }>In article <009EE440.9839B521@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:d }>> In article <jBVLYx3GTaRq@eisner.decus.org>, malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg) writes: }>8 }>>>There are some that may find it useful to have a VMS8 }>>>client so that they do not have to have a Wintel box! }>>>to perform the same function.t }>> 8 }>> Well now, there's a noble reason...  Anything which 9 }>> might erode the wintel cartel is good and noble and a  }>> worthy project.r }> }>_Anything_ ? }>I }>Personally, I find fewer interruptions rather than more to be the goal.u } 8 }True.  Does this AOL thing have an "off hook" feature?  }-- P }VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  D I havn't used AIM, but other similar programs let you to make a listG of who is allowed to send you a message (or, alternatively, who isn't).   H If you stop the program, you obviously won't be getting any messages. ItF isn't like Phone where it will send you "X::Y is phoning you" messages! even when you are not running it.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:41:02 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e: Subject: Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ?0 Message-ID: <009EE509.CFAB82B5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <8AUG200017173339@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:" >system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes...i >}In article <AoJybMe+Uc4n@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:os >}>In article <009EE440.9839B521@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:.e >}>> In article <jBVLYx3GTaRq@eisner.decus.org>, malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:o >}>e9 >}>>>There are some that may find it useful to have a VMSo9 >}>>>client so that they do not have to have a Wintel boxa" >}>>>to perform the same function. >}>>  9 >}>> Well now, there's a noble reason...  Anything which t: >}>> might erode the wintel cartel is good and noble and a >}>> worthy project. >}>  >}>_Anything_ ?- >}>-J >}>Personally, I find fewer interruptions rather than more to be the goal. >} 29 >}True.  Does this AOL thing have an "off hook" feature? i >}--Q >}VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMd >tE >I havn't used AIM, but other similar programs let you to make a listrH >of who is allowed to send you a message (or, alternatively, who isn't). >eI >If you stop the program, you obviously won't be getting any messages. It=  G I much assumed that.  What I want it the equivalent of a "busy signal" l, generated by leaving the phone off-hook.  ;)  G >isn't like Phone where it will send you "X::Y is phoning you" messagesi" >even when you are not running it.  ' How about a 'voice menu' like option.     1 If you know your party's extansion dial it now orr dial 1 for sales dial 2 for technical support% dial 3 for mind numbing music on holdr dial M for Murder    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:56:41 GMTi% From: dpm@myths.com (David P. Murphy)l: Subject: Re: OpenVMS ALPHA Port Of AOL Instant Messenger ?. Message-ID: <sp1i39gj63a94@news.supernews.com>  = i am using AOL IM right now (my name is "thudain") to arrangen= for a friend in the boston area to come visit in a few weeks.c< very very convenient to have a realtime conversation without the long distance bill.g  > Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@sendspamhere.org> wrote:+ > carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:d  3 >>>Does this AOL thing have an "off hook" feature?    F >>I havn't used AIM, but other similar programs let you to make a listI >>of who is allowed to send you a message (or, alternatively, who isn't).a  E IM does indeed have lists of people to watch for and people to block.n  G >>If you stop the program, you obviously won't be getting any messages.l  2 i'd like to meet the programmer who can beat that.  I > I much assumed that.  What I want it the equivalent of a "busy signal" t. > generated by leaving the phone off-hook.  ;)  H has that too.  it's called the Away Message.  you can keep many messagesI ready to use, or type in a once-only.  people can see that you're "busy".a  H >>isn't like Phone where it will send you "X::Y is phoning you" messages# >>even when you are not running it.'  I mmmm, it's close.  if you're "away" it logs all the messages sent to you.e  > if someone who is on your "good" list attempts to message you,B a window is automatically created and the message is acknowledged.  = if someone who is on your "bad" list attempts to message you,e the message is refused.p  : if someone who is on neither list attempts to message you,> a dialog box appears with the information and several choices.  * it's Pretty Darn Useful, and free to boot.   sorry brian!   ok dpmD -- p3 David P. Murphy          http://www.myths.com/~dpm/.- systems programmer        ftp://ftp.myths.com<C                          mailto:dpm@myths.com            (personal)eC COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO     mailto:dmurphy@ac-tech.com          (work)e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 21:31:59 GMTo* From: Steven Whatley <swhatley@blkbox.com>A Subject: Re: QUIT SMOKING IN 7 DAYS!! 96% SUCCESS RATE!! (130127) 7 Message-ID: <j%_j5.12515$wX5.162388@news5.giganews.com>t  : hollyj31486@astratec.net <hollyj31486@astratec.net> wrote:? > Be a Non-Smoker in as little as 7 Days !!!  With Finally-Free   E I have a drive that starts smoking, I sure hope it stops a lot soonerN than in 7 days. :)   Later, Steven   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Aug 2000 22:17:46 GMTv# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edut' Subject: Re: Secure LYNX client for VMSy+ Message-ID: <8mq0ua$cqt$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>o    grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu writes:  D >Has anyone out there successfully built and used LYNX with OPENSSL? >lJ >I got LYNX 2.8.3rel1 and OPENSSL (9.5?) and patches from www.moxienet.comK >and managed to built the software with some effort.  The OPENSSL self testnF >succeeded, and LYNX runs for non-secure pages (not HTTPS), but I get  >tJ > "Unable to make secure connection to remote host" when trying to connect >02 >to any HTTPS page. I don't know what I'm missing.  M If you get an answer please send me a copy.  I asked here and on the lynx-devnJ list.  No response here, one fairly authoritative response that nobody had done it there.   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Aug 00 12:47:54 PSTe From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com   Subject: RE: TELNET vs LAT speed( Message-ID: <TU5j5Cf2S3b+@cpva.saic.com>  L In article <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240111EBD@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>,;  John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes:sG > We have both LAT and TELNET ( and also DECnet ) access on all our VMStC > systems. On a practical level there's no measurable difference inlM > performance between one protocol or another for terminal window access: allgF > three give excellent performance. TELNET is much more robust to highN > Ethernet traffic levels and network hiccups in general. LAT is indeed one ofK > the best indicators of Ethernet traffic loads and consequent packet loss: F > once packets start being dropped LAT connections break with terminal8 > sessions being disconnected and print queues stalling. >     F Many years ago as I was migrating many users from LAT to Telnet I tookM the opportunity to measure the difference in my environment. This environmenthI was composed of several 128 port DECserver 500 type servers connecting tomL 6000 series VAXes. The principal application was keystroke intensive (ALLIN1L and word processing). I saw an interrupt stack differential of approximatelyG 8-1 with LAT (obviously) the more efficient. I suspect that if you were I migrating from small terminal servers you'd hardly notice a difference astM bundling a couple of users keystrokes together would not reap the benefits of/K 100+. Also on today's large Alpha systems much of this would be lost in theu noise. YMMV...   --   - Jim    ------------------------------  " Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:33:19 GMT/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>2" Subject: Re: TSM and multiple NICs) Message-ID: <39900C1F.30634481@uiowa.edu>i  B > Does anyone know how (or if!) I can configure TSM to use the EWB
 > controller?6  7 	To answer my own question (thanks for the hint Steve):   ' 		$ TSM Set Server <name> Circuit EWA-1   1 Of course the EWB NIC is seen as EWA-1 by DECnet.o   rick --  H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-14790   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:06:58 -0500a+ From: Shael Richmond <ksrich@bellsouth.net>e" Subject: Re: TSM and multiple NICs, Message-ID: <3990AEB2.E11AD0D@bellsouth.net>   "Richard L. Dyson" wrote:i > D > > Does anyone know how (or if!) I can configure TSM to use the EWB > > controller?  > @ >         To answer my own question (thanks for the hint Steve): > 7 >                 $ TSM Set Server <name> Circuit EWA-1- > 3 > Of course the EWB NIC is seen as EWA-1 by DECnet.a >   C You can also change the definition of each server.  For the circuitu just put ewa-0,ewa-1.-   ShaelC   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:32:52 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>w  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mpqmk$hh7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messaget' news:398F668F.AF929587@tsoft-inc.com...z > Harald Droste wrote: > >n > > ----<snip>----$ > > > I would add that VMS has yearsL > > > of engineering behind it, where NT, for instance, only has a few years ofC > > > questionable (I have my doubts about microsoft's engineering)  equivelance. > >i > > ----<snip>---- > >e- > > even if I get slaughtered for this one...hG > > the N/T architect is nobody else than Dave Cuttler and his (ex-DEC)  team.C > > 
 > > Harald >]0 > Slaughtered, probably too old and stringy. :-) >e: > What you need to do is look at the date Cutler left DEC,   1988, I believe.    and if possible, howe= > much he had to do with VMS beyond the initial few versions.a  L Not all that much, given that most of the work he was doing at DECWest neverH got used, save for what emerged as the Alpha hardware.  I don't know howK much technical detail Alpha owes directly to Cutler, but I strongly suspectnJ it's something - and it could be a lot, since the overall project from the, ashes of which Alpha emerged was run by him.     VMS 7.2 is very far G > from VMS 1.5, 2.0, etc.  If NT's target is VMS Version 1.5, a producte	 available ! > in 1980, that's rather pitiful.e  L But if NT's *first release* target was VMS Version 1.5, plus the DOS/WindowsH compatibility targets it had, that's far from pitiful (or unreasonable).G VMS V1.5 was not something to sneeze at (just ask its competitors), andiJ coming anywhere near its capabilities in a first release that included allK the additional superstructure that VMS V1.5 never had (and that VMS to some 2 degree still doesn't have) is nothing to sneer at.  K (Unless you believe VMS V1 was pitiful because it failed to achieve instantrJ equivalence with OS/370:  the two situations have a fair amount in common,2 both technically and in terms of relative timing.)  E The fact that Microsoft has since concentrated on somewhat half-bakedmI feature enhancements in preference to solidifying that first release is a.D different issue, and quite possibly one over which Cutler had little control.   >iL > Also, the mention of "(ex-DEC) team" seems to imply that a sizable part of the-I > VMS development team moved to Microsoft.  I don't know how many of themh may have< > done so, but I seriously doubt it is a significant number.  K Depends on whether you count bodies or talent.  Some key contributors wound7F up at Microsoft, plus I don't know how many intermediate-level people.I DECWest had some of the cream of the company, and a lot, perhaps most, of J them did not return East (though not all left DEC and not all of those who left went to Microsoft).  I The bottom line is that enough DECcies worked on NT to form a significant0J sub-group within the (rather different) Microsoft culture.  They dominatedG NT's core design and implementation, and heavily influenced much of thet rest.v   >lG > Finally, some people seem to be under the impression that one person,t David K > Cutler, was responsible for VMS.  Not even close, and I do not think thaty he wasG > in charge, just one of the many people involved in the initial design  effort.4  % Incorrect, in virtually all respects.F  L Dave Cutler was by far the person most responsible for the character of VMS.H VMS's internal mechanisms closely resembled RSX's (though obviously withL major extensions), and RSX was indisputably Cutler's system (which is not toG say that he wrote most of its code or even participated in every design L decision, but he molded its overall structure and designed and wrote a great deal of its core code).m  L In addition to being second-to-none in driving the overall initial design ofH VMS (which is not in any way to minimize the roles of people like RichieG Lary, Andy Goldstein, and others whom I have no wish to slight but haveaI forgotten:  I was only minimally aware of that cast of characters back in-I 1976 - e.g., I don't even know when Dick Hustvedt appeared on the scene),<K Cutler was, IIRC, the technical leader for the design/implementation of VMSaB V1.0's core, and, as was characteristic of him, also churned out aJ ridiculously large amount of high-quality code in an insanely brief period of time.  K Cutler could often be (though was not always) a bastard to work with - to a K degree that was unnecessary and undesirable.  Cutler left DEC (I'd say witheL very good reason) for Microsoft to create NT.  NT, despite its faults, showsG every indication of supplanting VMS in the marketplace (largely because L first DEC and now Compaq have no idea of the value of VMS and its continuingH potential, even after over a decade of neglect and outright abuse).  All@ reasons people might like to revise history to minimize Cutler'sJ significance (and since people have a strong tendency to believe what they* want to believe, perhaps they'll succeed).   >dK > One thing I'm rather sure of (which isn't saying much) is that one of thew mostI > well known features of VMS, the VMS CLuster, is something Cutler didn'tc have > anything to do with.  K That's my understanding as well.  My remembrance (though it's not something-I I was involved with, so it could be erroneous) is that a highly-ambitioussL VMS fault-tolerance project called Hydra, begun not long after the first VMSK release, had entered the lengthy floundering stage at about the time Cutler8H decided that going off to work on something independent (creating a PL/1K compiler) would be more fun - but I don't know that these two circumstancesaL were directly related.  Hydra eventually died, but VAXclusters rose from itsH ashes and I suspect owe a lot to its work (though I don't know what theyG might owe to any of that work that Cutler may have had a hand in beforee moving over to PL/1).a   >.I > Maybe reality isn't as good a 'story' as some of the fiction making thea rounds,  > including possibly mine.  I Actually, the real story is considerably better than what you've offered. K Cutler was indeed something of a primal force in DEC's (and VMS's) history,wK combining top-notch design skills, awe-inspiring implementation ability and0G speed, and a driving will.  Did he do it all alone?  Of course not, andSK there's plenty of credit to spread around.  Was he indispensable and did hemI figuratively stand a full head over everyone else in whatever endeavor hen was involved with?  Absolutely.e  J [I knew Cutler casually, but never worked with or for him, though I workedL with and knew well quite a few people who did.  So anyone with significantlyE more direct contact with him or the situations involved is welcome to.9 correct anything I may have perceived incorrectly above.]    - bill   >f > Dave >a > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com8 > T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:15:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <39908668.201FC4DE@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:< > > What you need to do is look at the date Cutler left DEC, >  > 1988, I believe.  I And when was NT finally released ? I think that in 1988, a working/usablehM "DOS-WINDOWS" didn't exist, and it wasn't until 1992 I beleive that somethingg5 semi usable came out of Microsoft to rival the Mac.  s    G > The fact that Microsoft has since concentrated on somewhat half-baked-K > feature enhancements in preference to solidifying that first release is atF > different issue, and quite possibly one over which Cutler had little
 > control.  L But it provides some insight on what sort of influence Cutler might have had in the big picture.0  K > The bottom line is that enough DECcies worked on NT to form a significantdL > sub-group within the (rather different) Microsoft culture.  They dominatedI > NT's core design and implementation, and heavily influenced much of the4 > rest.1  J I have heard that many times, but you know, I don't really beleive it. Oh,J yeah, you can show all sorts of similarities between NT and VMS and how NTK must have used Cutler's knowledge to implement a clone of VMS. But you knowtG what, when I learned about the PSION EPOC (the original 16 bit bersion)nL operating system for PDAs, I found so many similarities with VMS that it wasL uncanny... Event Flags, mailbox devices, a network link with the same DECnetG features (transparent file access, process-process communications, filePL copying etc), process priorities etc etc. Did I assume that PSION had stolen2 Digital cutler to write its SIBO/EPOC system ? No.  M There are things that are quite basic with operating systems and just becauseTM you hire folks who have worked elsewhere doesn't mean that they have been keyaL to implementation or transfered their experience in another operating system to another.I  M That NT has some features that are very similar to VMS, I do not doubt. But IhN do not think that NT would have been that different had Cutler not been there.  M > Cutler could often be (though was not always) a bastard to work with - to aYM > degree that was unnecessary and undesirable.  Cutler left DEC (I'd say withvN > very good reason) for Microsoft to create NT.  NT, despite its faults, shows8 > every indication of supplanting VMS in the marketplace  N DOS supplanted VMS in the marketplace. So if NT supplants VMS is isn't becauseI of Cuttler, it is simply because VMS has been killed and is now hopefully-% healing in a long term care hospital.0K It has nothing to do with features, it has everything to do with marketing.A   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:25:18 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>   Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mq8ae$ru4$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:39908668.201FC4DE@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:> > > > What you need to do is look at the date Cutler left DEC, > >. > > 1988, I believe.   October 31, 1988, in fact.   >g$ > And when was NT finally released ?  L July, 1993.  Not an unreasonable amount of time to take in a new environmentK to design and implement a full-function, micro-kernel-based, multi-platformeJ operating system with major backward-compatibility constraints and limited  ability to re-use existing code.  '  I think that in 1988, a working/usablet > "DOS-WINDOWS" didn't exist,a  G DOS Version 4.0 was released in 1988, but Version 3.0 in 1984 supportedaJ PC-ATs and I remember doing assembler development on Version 3.1 (releasedL in 1985, I think) and finding it an adequate PC development environment.  SoC DOS itself was relatively mature while Cutler was still at DECWest.o  J MS Windows V1 shipped in late 1985 and was a joke by comparison to the MacE (even though it reportedly involved a secret licensing agreement with L Apple).  Windows V2.03 shipped in January, 1988, and brought the interface aL good deal closer to something that could at least think about competing withH the Mac - especially given the relative popularity of the existing IntelG hardware already running DOS.  In October, 1987, Microsoft also shippedgD 'Windows/386', its first Windows product to take advantage of 32-bitE addressing (and about which I otherwise know nothing).  In May, 1990,pL Microsoft shipped Windows 3.0 and never looked back at the Mac again (as farL as market penetration went, anyway:  they may still be learning from the MacL today).  Windows 3.1 followed in April, 1992.  (Some of these dates courtesy% of the book Migrating to Windows 95.)-  H So 18 months after Cutler joined Microsoft (and over 3 years before NT'sD first release) Microsoft was already shipping the successful WindowsL platform with which NT had to be at least culturally compatible (and to some degree binary compatible).  2  and it wasn't until 1992 I beleive that something5 > semi usable came out of Microsoft to rival the Mac.d  L May, 1990:  see above.  If 'semi-usable' is really the criterion you want to( use, one could even claim January, 1988.   >- >-I > > The fact that Microsoft has since concentrated on somewhat half-bakeduK > > feature enhancements in preference to solidifying that first release isu auH > > different issue, and quite possibly one over which Cutler had little > > control. > J > But it provides some insight on what sort of influence Cutler might have had  > in the big picture.m  I JF, you have a remarkable talent for completely missing the point of whate& you read and babbling on irrelevantly.  F The subject I was addressing was the first release of NT, not Cutler'sL influence over Microsoft as a whole or NT's subsequent direction - questions+ about which I may know as little as you do.m   >oA > > The bottom line is that enough DECcies worked on NT to form ae significantrD > > sub-group within the (rather different) Microsoft culture.  They	 dominated-K > > NT's core design and implementation, and heavily influenced much of the.	 > > rest.c >RH > I have heard that many times, but you know, I don't really beleive it.  H As I said, people have a distinct tendency to believe what they want to,L regardless of the facts.  Some people even try to convince others that theirK total ignorance of the facts still constitutes some kind of valid basis foraA an opinion (perhaps a matter of devine right or psychic ability).   K I'd suggest you read the book Showstopper - which, while not a journalistictF effort quite on a par with The Soul of a New Machine, definitely ringsL true-to-life (based on what I've heard from other sources and what I know ofL Cutler).  One assumes, for example, that it's reasonable to take as fact itsJ statement that seven additional high-level DECWest engineers joined CutlerK at Microsoft within a week of his going there, and I don't believe that wasaL the full extent of the brain-drain by any means - for example, Microsoft wasE continually picking up ex-DEC luminaries even independently of the NTDF effort, Jim Gray being one of the more illustrious, but I think later,	 examples.i    Oh,L > yeah, you can show all sorts of similarities between NT and VMS and how NTH > must have used Cutler's knowledge to implement a clone of VMS. But you knowI > what, when I learned about the PSION EPOC (the original 16 bit bersion)tJ > operating system for PDAs, I found so many similarities with VMS that it wasaG > uncanny... Event Flags, mailbox devices, a network link with the sames DECnetI > features (transparent file access, process-process communications, file-G > copying etc), process priorities etc etc. Did I assume that PSION hadk stolen4 > Digital cutler to write its SIBO/EPOC system ? No.  I But should you suspect that PSION learned from looking closely at systems G such as RSX and VMS (or systems developed by people who looked at thesenG systems, likely including psos and vrtx - the lineage is fairly long by  now)?  Yes.    >WG > There are things that are quite basic with operating systems and just  because K > you hire folks who have worked elsewhere doesn't mean that they have been: key-G > to implementation or transfered their experience in another operating  system
 > to another.-  H Correct again (twice in a row now, but not in any way that supports yourH argument):  to know that, you have to know actual details of what you're talking about.   >5I > That NT has some features that are very similar to VMS, I do not doubt.6 But I0I > do not think that NT would have been that different had Cutler not beeni there.  I Just another example of your readiness to form an opinion about something H you know absolutely nothing about, and having done so argue happily with0 those who actually *do* know something about it.   >oJ > > Cutler could often be (though was not always) a bastard to work with - to aJ > > degree that was unnecessary and undesirable.  Cutler left DEC (I'd say withJ > > very good reason) for Microsoft to create NT.  NT, despite its faults, shows1: > > every indication of supplanting VMS in the marketplace >A( > DOS supplanted VMS in the marketplace.  L Dear me.  Don't tell Richard Marcello:  he's still under the impression thatJ VMS is generating something like $4 billion/year in revenue in markets DOS/ doesn't have a hope in hell of invading - ever.a  (  So if NT supplants VMS is isn't becauseK > of Cuttler, it is simply because VMS has been killed and is now hopefullyT' > healing in a long term care hospital. B > It has nothing to do with features, it has everything to do with
 marketing.  I Uh-oh.  You've been taking lessons from - no, I won't go there again thise soon.   B *Why* VMS is getting supplanted is not particularly relevant to myI observation that it *is* getting supplanted, albeit relatively slowly now.? (since most of those who could jump ship already have).  And byEI conspicuously supporting VMS - including, but not limited to, significantVL marketing efforts - Compaq *could* likely turn this trend around.  But untilI that happens, I suspect that the situation will continue, and continue totK fuel some completely unjustified resentment at Cutler for his part in it (IlI mean, it's not as if DEC had been willing to provide the kind of creativetE environment that Microsoft offered:  if it had, he'd have stayed in ar minute).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 23:05:20 -04001- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <3990CA69.55EC093F@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:K > that happens, I suspect that the situation will continue, and continue to5M > fuel some completely unjustified resentment at Cutler for his part in it (IrK > mean, it's not as if DEC had been willing to provide the kind of creativesG > environment that Microsoft offered:  if it had, he'd have stayed in al
 > minute).    N I am not privy to what drove Cutler to leave DEC , now privy to what Microsoft did to hire him.I However, I am not sure how much "creative environment" Cutler was given. m  K He might have been given certain freedoms at the levels Microsoft had neversN seen before because DOS had never dealt with it (multitasking), but I doubt heS was given any freedom over application interfaces, user interfaces, or batch files.n  I So to me, NT is just a glorified multitasking DOS/WINDOWS box with a realEK kernel. I.E. the majority of NT was dictated by the DOS/WINDOWS legacy, andm/ not created from scratch by Cutler and friends.h  L I really don't see why Cutler is seen as a god by some. Now, if Hoff HoffmanL were to defect to Microsoft, that would be another story.... :-) ;-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 03:11:18 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS< Message-ID: <qZ3k5.10616$_s1.209088@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message  3 Much on Cutler, Mica, birth of NT, et al deleted...t     >hD > *Why* VMS is getting supplanted is not particularly relevant to myK > observation that it *is* getting supplanted, albeit relatively slowly now,9 > (since most of those who could jump ship already have).n  K What amazes me is that the license count has remained relatively stable foriI since 1997-98. DECpaq itself anticipated that licenses would decline fromiK their peak of ~500K in the early 90's to perhaps ~200K by 2001. The licenset> headcount remains pretty much what it was in 97-98: ~400-450K.       > And byK > conspicuously supporting VMS - including, but not limited to, significantoC > marketing efforts - Compaq *could* likely turn this trend around.h   Yep.   > But until K > that happens, I suspect that the situation will continue, and continue tolJ > fuel some completely unjustified resentment at Cutler for his part in it (IK > mean, it's not as if DEC had been willing to provide the kind of creativeiG > environment that Microsoft offered:  if it had, he'd have stayed in an
 > minute).  H It was March 1988 that DEC pulled the plug on PRISM/Mica in favor of theI MIPS RISC architecture (PRISM was scalar/vector, and vector architectureseK were falling into disrepute by that time). Cutler bolted almost immediatelye" thereafter, and understandably so.  J IIRC Cutler did RSX and VAXeln, not VMS per se. Dave was, however, the bigC dog in the PRISM/Mica effort, and Windows NT/2000 today is a rather  Mica-flecked OS.  K And another reason why PRISM/Mica was scuttled: there was a war between thetI high performance systems folks (Glorioso) and the midrange systems peopleyK (Demmer). Glorioso advocated the VAX 9000 "mainframe" approach while Demmer,I was a midrange SMP (VAX 6000 Calypso) proponent. Glorioso won the battle.a2 But it turned out to be a Pyrrhic victory for DEC.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 05:02:13 GMTg* From: Paul Walker <walkerp1@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS- Message-ID: <3990E72E.9D0BD1F0@earthlink.net>p   Bill Todd wrote:  : > What you need to do is look at the date Cutler left DEC,  M Hmm.  Wonder if Cutler would ever consider an Autobiography.  Seems like he'so got at least some interest :)f   Paul   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:36:38 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mqqi8$dtj$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3990CA69.55EC093F@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:J > > that happens, I suspect that the situation will continue, and continue toL > > fuel some completely unjustified resentment at Cutler for his part in it (ID > > mean, it's not as if DEC had been willing to provide the kind of creativeI > > environment that Microsoft offered:  if it had, he'd have stayed in ae > > minute). >w > F > I am not privy to what drove Cutler to leave DEC , now privy to what	 MicrosoftC > did to hire him.J > However, I am not sure how much "creative environment" Cutler was given.  J Cutler was given the opportunity to create, from the ground up, (at least)H one more highly-ambitious operating system.  It's what he's done all hisL life, what he enjoys, and what he had just lost the opportunity to do at DECJ with the collapse of the PRISM/Mica effort - quite possibly forever, sinceK that was twelve years ago and it's pretty clear now that there was no othern new OS on DEC's horizon.   >dG > He might have been given certain freedoms at the levels Microsoft hadd never G > seen before because DOS had never dealt with it (multitasking), but Io doubt heH > was given any freedom over application interfaces, user interfaces, or batch files.  H The user interface (certainly the GUI, and likely the command interface)K were at least somewhat defined by existing Microsoft products - and I doubtiI Cutler gave a damn (I suspect it's function more than form that interests I him).  However, aside from the sandboxes supporting execution of existingnH DOS binaries, AFAIK the application interface (perhaps excepting the GUIH stuff he likely didn't care about anyway) was reasonably up for grabs asI long as enough cultural compatibility remained to keep it approachable by1I the existing development community - and since Microsoft's preceding APIs:? had been relatively straight-forward and Cutler is an extremely>H straight-forward kind of guy, I suspect he got to do pretty much what he
 wanted there.    > K > So to me, NT is just a glorified multitasking DOS/WINDOWS box with a realiI > kernel. I.E. the majority of NT was dictated by the DOS/WINDOWS legacy,t ando1 > not created from scratch by Cutler and friends.l  L Given that Win2K is now said to comprise well over 40 million lines of code,H I'd say that's a safe assumption.  However, the first release reportedlyK (see Showstopper) weighed in at 'only' 5.6 million lines - and of that, theaL vast majority were outside the micro-kernel (though my impression is that itH was a significantly heftier 'micro-kernel' than, say, Mach's), which wasJ always Cutler's tightest focus (since any problems outside the kernel tend? to have far more limited scope and be more easily correctable).   I I strongly suspect that Cutler was the absolute monarch of the NT kernel, K and the book indicates that he micro-managed its ancillary 'server' moduleshK (e.g., graphics) even if he didn't do as much of that work himself.  To sayhK that the majority of NT was dictated by legacy considerations is to say you I have no idea of what the majority of an OS comprises:  while the *veneer*nI (user and application interfaces) of the system was indeed constrained bynL compatibility issues of various degrees, the *implementation* of that veneerI was all-new code of an average quality far higher than anything Microsoft J had theretofore experienced, and the fact that seven years later and afterK major revisions that core remains the basis of the most stable - and by fartK the most complex - OS Microsoft has to offer testifies more than adequatelyk
 to that fact.e   >m9 > I really don't see why Cutler is seen as a god by some.e  F Probably because you've never met anyone anywhere nearly as competent:K they're extremely rare.  Richie Lary probably had more sheer mental agilitytI than Cutler and could code at least as well, but lacked anything like the E managerial focus and pure drive (though in later years he did take ontI managerial responsibilities).  There may have been a handful of others atsJ DEC about as smart as Cutler, but without his prodigious output or (again)L drive (I wasn't fortunate enough to know some of these people well enough toL be sure - I never knew Dick Hustvedt at all, for example) - but I don't knowK of anyone still there (Richie just left) who quite rises to that level (andlI the people still there whom I greatly respect likely understand that thish observation is *not* a slight).g  K I never considered Cutler a god, but can understand how an average engineerr might have:  he was that good.   - bill    Now, if Hoff HoffmaneJ > were to defect to Microsoft, that would be another story.... :-) ;-) :-) :-)t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 01:36:58 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mqqiq$dtk$1@pyrite.mv.net>  = Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagey6 news:qZ3k5.10616$_s1.209088@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >w< > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message >e5 > Much on Cutler, Mica, birth of NT, et al deleted...a >a >c > >iF > > *Why* VMS is getting supplanted is not particularly relevant to myI > > observation that it *is* getting supplanted, albeit relatively slowly  nowo; > > (since most of those who could jump ship already have).a >CI > What amazes me is that the license count has remained relatively stablen for,K > since 1997-98. DECpaq itself anticipated that licenses would decline fromeE > their peak of ~500K in the early 90's to perhaps ~200K by 2001. Theo licensep@ > headcount remains pretty much what it was in 97-98: ~400-450K.  G It is indeed amazing, given the continuing level of neglect and, withinnB recent memory, abuse.  We could debate whether stable numbers in aI significantly-growing market define a (slow) decline, I suppose, but I'll J stand by the sense of the statement while acknowledging that debatability.   >e >r >y
 > > And byA > > conspicuously supporting VMS - including, but not limited to,r significantoE > > marketing efforts - Compaq *could* likely turn this trend around.s >n > Yep. >.
 > > But untilpJ > > that happens, I suspect that the situation will continue, and continue toL > > fuel some completely unjustified resentment at Cutler for his part in it > (ID > > mean, it's not as if DEC had been willing to provide the kind of creativeI > > environment that Microsoft offered:  if it had, he'd have stayed in at > > minute). >sJ > It was March 1988 that DEC pulled the plug on PRISM/Mica in favor of theK > MIPS RISC architecture (PRISM was scalar/vector, and vector architecturestA > were falling into disrepute by that time). Cutler bolted almoste immediatelym$ > thereafter, and understandably so.  H It was indeed a disappointing time for DECWest people.  A friend of mineG recounted a story of Dave and Roger Heinen (another very high-level VMS H alumnus loss to MS, but IIRC one who moved into the database arena thereH rather than the NT effort, though I'm not certain he didn't start there)I crossing paths by chance at some random airport and each sheepishly - andtA sorrowfully - admitting to the other that they were interviewing.    >s1 > IIRC Cutler did RSX and VAXeln, not VMS per se.b  L VAXeln was indeed Cutler's baby, but as I recall a result of his frustrationK with the growing girth of VMS itself (and thus occurred significantly aftersL VMS V1, though it may have been planned all along).  And I'm reasonably sureK that his contributions to VMS V1 were as I described them (with Elan comingt later).     Dave was, however, the big E > dog in the PRISM/Mica effort, and Windows NT/2000 today is a ratherr > Mica-flecked OS.  L I'd be curious about details there:  it's an assertion I've often heard, butI know nothing even second-hand about (and with its hint of the transfer ofhK actual code, or at least very detailed design of something never shipped bypL DEC, involves issues considerably greyer than the 'technology transfer' of a< system with published source code that so clearly occurred).   > I > And another reason why PRISM/Mica was scuttled: there was a war betweeno thenK > high performance systems folks (Glorioso) and the midrange systems peopleeF > (Demmer). Glorioso advocated the VAX 9000 "mainframe" approach while DemmerK > was a midrange SMP (VAX 6000 Calypso) proponent. Glorioso won the battle.a4 > But it turned out to be a Pyrrhic victory for DEC.  K So now Glorioso sells fault-tolerant NT systems at Marathon.  And the wheelt turns yet again.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 02:00:00 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <3990F34C.5A071FE8@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:iM > What amazes me is that the license count has remained relatively stable forlK > since 1997-98. DECpaq itself anticipated that licenses would decline fromrM > their peak of ~500K in the early 90's to perhaps ~200K by 2001. The licensew@ > headcount remains pretty much what it was in 97-98: ~400-450K.  ! How would license count decline ?i  N Or by license count, are you meaning number of licenses for which the customer has a support contract ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 06:49:33 +0000. From: "T Bluck." <tb@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk>; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?i7 Message-ID: <zKU4vEA916j5IwaG@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk>i   >uG >This is beginning to sound like "Can You Top This?" (an old U.S. radioSA >program from more years ago that I care to remember). Vis  vis:o >yJ >Early one Monday morning, the early shift operator for the aforementionedF >NIH DECsystem-10 arrived to find the entire computer room filled withK >steam! The Gods of Computing were smiling that day, however wryly, because J >(1) it was relatively low temperature steam, and (2) the system power hadE >been turned off on Sunday by a DEC maintenance engineer after he waspG >finished doing some maintenance. It took the better part of 2 weeks totL >clean and dry out all the electronics - including the disk packs and backupH >tapes, which were [you guessed it] stored in the same room. Not one bit8 >lost, though, at least as far as anyone could tell. :-} >0E >There was a steam line from the central power plant that entered thebI >building through a closet off the basement computer room, and one of thebI >valves sprang a small leak sometime during the weekend. The DEC engineer L >actually noted a little bit of steam coming from the closet and decided (asK >I remember) to leave the power off, "just in case". By Sunday morning, the ; >small leak had turned into something bigger - much bigger!  >d >Over. > B that's cool! (or not...)  a sauna with it's own computer system... -- ,8 Tim Bluck.   TB565   http://www.planet-tharg.demon.co.uk   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:23:57 +0100& From: "Geoff" <gdt@saluki.demon.co.uk>/ Subject: Re: Wish List:  I/O vs. CPU PrioritiesnA Message-ID: <965778046.23933.0.nnrp-07.9e988e73@news.demon.co.uk>p  L I believe that SGI have implemented IO shaping / resource management in IRIX on the Origin 2000 / 3000.   Geoffs    8 John Nixon <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message? news:_2kd5.6852$iP.752198@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...yK > I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't think anyone mentioned that F > this is implemented in other OSs;  but rather that it causes us (VMS people)rE > problems, and we would like to see it implemented in VMS.  There isaF > nothing to say that we can only have features after someone else has
 > them first.A >bC > I have no idea how VMS engineering could best implement this, butn > I use a  very crude DCL loop:p >* > $on warning then $exit > $loop: > $set proc/susp/id='p1s > $wait 00:00:0'p2 > $set proc/nosups/id='p1n > $wait 00:00:0'p3
 > $goto starty >jF > Crude, but it does most of what I need, but I have to first detect a$ > process and then enter the command >n9 > "Rob Young" <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messageh' > news:epfJDom59N1G@eisner.decus.org... D > > In article <3975011A.EC2A4C9@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera"' > <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:o > >e > > >aF > > > Actually, what Richard mentioned remains the bane of the OpenVMSG > > > SysAdmin's job: you can impact the CPU scheduler, but there is noiH > > > accessible mechanism to prioritize the I/O traffic at the level he (and* > > > others in his predicament) requires. > > >tJ > > > By adjusting process priorities you can, to a limited degree, adjust theMI > > > number of I/O requests a process can enque for any given time span.nF > > > However, once enqueued, they all seem to have (roughly) the same > > > priority.. > > >e > >a
 > > David, > >c: > > Can you or someone point out a concrete example of how9 > > this feature exists in another OS?  I'm interested ine< > > trying to understand this but don't quite "get it", yet. > >) > > Thanks,  > >a > > Robn > >e >  >r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.442 ************************fied multitasking DOS/WINDOWS box with a realEK kernel. I.E. the majority of NT was dictated by the DOS/WINDYc3,z`}6C-\{le@| }16B6?(&4gF?! IWAA]fZ.4 mq{;o'hf'M'CKcOX}qXTH@# Dr@DF26rGEr?$_#Us.(r(z(*ba%o5bFgEṛ`IQ+}hs@N`$^朠z>G<
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