1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 11 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 446       Contents:P Re: Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: CETS Re: Attached file on mail  Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale) Re: decc$from_vms and potential filenames 
 decserver 250  Re: decserver 250 ? RE: DSNlink, modems and WIS (was: Re: Web browser and VMS mail) ? RE: DSNlink, modems and WIS (was: Re: Web browser and VMS mail)  Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise( Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alpha4 Re: How to backup files since the last image backup. Re: IEEE floating-point format Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment # Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment # Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment # Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment # Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment - Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus) - Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus) - Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus) ( Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.com& Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise& Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise& Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise& Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise Re: PCM / CommandIT   seeing fragmentation disk status$ Re: seeing fragmentation disk status  Serial printer on DECServer 90L+ Re: TCPIP stacks& Re: Telnet in a single line command.../ Re: Too bad the Q didn't think of this first... ) Trouble building ImageMagick-5.2.2 on VMS  UCX$ACCESS_SHR VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS  Re: VMS Vs any other OS 2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?2 Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:12:50 -0700 ' From: "Andrew Mould" <ram@softsell.com> Y Subject: Re: Alliance Technical Update (was Re: Tandem content at CETS2000 (was: Re: CETS / Message-ID: <sp5vo398n4t147@corp.supernews.com>   J I sent a message off to CSA about all this. This is the reply I got, which  greatly clarifies the situation:     Andrew,   F As Mike pointed out, the overall plan is to have CSA provide a partner<  conferance to include all that the ATU was, but for all ourD  platforms. This was the first year and there was some conflict withE  ITUG both in  EMEA and in NA.  In EMEA, the CSA conferance (combined E  with ASE) was 3  weeks after the European ITUG.  In NA it (CETS2000) F  will be a combination of DECUS, Wizzards, ASE and CSA conferances but<  will be 2 weeks before  ITUG.  Because of the large partnerB  participation at ITUG we didn't want to impact partner attendanceE  there so we will have Himalaya content both at CETS2000 and at ITUG. D  The emphasis of the Himalaya sessions at CETS2000  will be bringingE  Himalaya technical info to attendees who aren't Himalaya savvy.  The <  emphasis of ITUG is deep technical content for parthers andF  customers.  I am also putting together a day of sessions specificallyE  for  Himalaya partners the Friday before ITUG.  These are being done ?  in conjunction with TechConnect.  We will have a joint Welcome D  reception Thursday evening, a and a joint eventing dinner/event forD  Friday evening.  The sessions will be  jointly attended by both the>  Tandem Analyst technical community and Himalaya partners. TheC  sessions are designed to: 1. provide some information for partners E  they won't get at ITUG sessions 2. provide some extended information F  on topics that will be done at ITUG 3. provide some time for partnersF  to get some key information that they  won't have time to get at ITUG  because of manning booths etc.   F This isn't a full replacement for the ATU as you know it but we wantedD to do what we could for our partners, with organization changes, fewB resources and bandwidth.  Next year plans are being worked to haveD both ITUG and the Compaq  technical conferance in the same timeframeB and location to remove the conflict  for partner attendance we had
 this year.  > If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.  ThisD confusion should  be cleared up shortly when we get our announcement materials out.   Regards,  
 Terry Schlenz   Consulting Analyst & Manager &  Worldwide Enterprise Solution Centers&  Business Critical Solutions Marketing          COMPAQ    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:20:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Re: Attached file on mail, Message-ID: <39931C8B.F0FDFA59@videotron.ca>   byatesiii@my-deja.com wrote:C > For our use, we ported uuencode to the Vax, and am able to create G > files, which, when sent as an email, appear as an attachment (with no  > email text).    M I beleive that this is the only "supported" way of sending binary attachement N via VMS mail. This is because most news/mail readers will scan the TEXT of theN message for a "begin" tag line which preceedes a uuencoded attachement, so the: "pure" text message that VMS mail sends is still workable.  N If you encode the attachement as MIME, the header of your VMSmail message willG still make it look as a text message and the mail/news readers won't be N looking to unscramble the MIME attachements, and the reader will have to save G the contents and use a manual mime utility to extract each attachement.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:32:28 -0500 / From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com>  Subject: Big AlphaServer Sale T Message-ID: <CB874B506A79D1118FBC006097306B8906828CC6@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  J The Q may not be able to sell VMS AlphaServers, but it looks like they are9 able to sell Tru64 AlphaServers.  See the write-up below.   $ Ed Stuart                           ( Manager, Systems and Desktop Services	   Information Technology Services  City of Austin, Austin Energy  Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com  + "Glittering prizes and endless compromises  . shatter the illusion of integrity" - Neil Pert  B *Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here*    A $36M contract to build world's largest non-military supercomputer L Compaq and the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center (PSC) have won a $36 millionK contract from the National Science Foundation (NSF) to build and manage the H world's largest non-military supercomputer. The supercomputer will offerK scientists access to a wide range of non-military, scientific applications.   E The contract, which includes hardware, software and services, will be K managed for NSF by PSC, with first delivery of systems expected by November  2000.   E Based on Compaq's AlphaServer SC architecture, the supercomputer will H consist of 682 quad-processor Compaq AlphaServer systems with a total ofI 2,728 processors. The system will deliver peak computing power of greater C than six trillion floating point operations per second (TeraFLOPS).   C The system will run Compaq's Tru64 UNIX operating system with 2,728 E Gigabytes of memory (1 Gigabyte per CPU) and 50 Terabytes of storage.   L Under terms of a joint agreement between Compaq and PSC, Compaq will provideI the hardware, software, performance and benchmarking activities while PSC A will do the porting, tuning and development of efficient parallel 
 applications.   C This supercomputer system will allow NSF to establish a single, new H terascale computing system to enable U.S. researchers in all science and@ engineering disciplines to gain access to leading edge computingD capabilities to look at such things as the structure and dynamics ofH proteins useful in drug design, storm-scale weather forecasting, and the2 modeling of earthquakes and global climate change.  H "With this award, NSF and the National Science Board join with us at theJ Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center in recognizing the excellence of Compaq'sJ high performance computing technology, and its potential to lead this leapD forward in general-purpose, high-end scientific computing," said PSCK scientific directors Michael Levine and Ralph Roskies in a joint statement.   K "We're pleased to be partnering with Compaq, and together with the computer H science community we'll create a system that enables U.S. researchers toG attack the most computationally challenging problems in engineering and 	 science."   J "Compaq is looking forward to working with the National Science FoundationL and the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center and we are committed to the successC of the terascale initiative," said Compaq President and CEO Michael 	 Capellas.   B "With our AlphaServer systems and Tru64 UNIX, we are providing theJ technology infrastructure for some of the most advanced computing projects= in the world. This is further proof of Compaq's leadership in K high-performance computing and our commitment to help open new frontiers in  science and technology."   -----------   Compaq #1 in Q2 server shipments 9 August 2000 11:00 AM CDT  G Market research by Dataquest, Inc., shows that Compaq led the worldwide F server market in Q2, with a 29.3 percent market share-more than the #2% (Dell) and #3 (IBM) vendors combined.  -----------    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:00:34 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale ; Message-ID: <muGk5.5550$pu4.398805@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   : "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageL news:CB874B506A79D1118FBC006097306B8906828CC6@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. ..L > The Q may not be able to sell VMS AlphaServers, but it looks like they are: > able to sell Tru64 AlphaServers.  See the write-up below  C > $36M contract to build world's largest non-military supercomputer   G > Based on Compaq's AlphaServer SC architecture, the supercomputer will J > consist of 682 quad-processor Compaq AlphaServer systems with a total ofK > 2,728 processors. The system will deliver peak computing power of greater E > than six trillion floating point operations per second (TeraFLOPS).   L And then there's the 100 Marvel (GS320 followon) systems that the French AECJ is gonna lash together in 2001-2002 to do nuclear simulations, hydrocodes, etc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:29:00 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) ! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale 0 Message-ID: <009EE689.B2DBC205@SendSpamHere.ORG>  r In article <muGk5.5550$pu4.398805@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > ; >"Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in message M >news:CB874B506A79D1118FBC006097306B8906828CC6@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us.  >...M >> The Q may not be able to sell VMS AlphaServers, but it looks like they are ; >> able to sell Tru64 AlphaServers.  See the write-up below  > D >> $36M contract to build world's largest non-military supercomputer > H >> Based on Compaq's AlphaServer SC architecture, the supercomputer willK >> consist of 682 quad-processor Compaq AlphaServer systems with a total of L >> 2,728 processors. The system will deliver peak computing power of greaterF >> than six trillion floating point operations per second (TeraFLOPS). > M >And then there's the 100 Marvel (GS320 followon) systems that the French AEC K >is gonna lash together in 2001-2002 to do nuclear simulations, hydrocodes,  >etc.   H Terry, aren't you afraid that the comic book publisher will piss on you = just as hard as the Wildfire folks for uttering "Marvel"?  ;)      --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 14:54:55 PDTT From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515)2 Subject: Re: decc$from_vms and potential filenames3 Message-ID: <s6GLezj1sOpW@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>   M In article <rdeininger-0908002354070001@user-2iveaoi.dialup.mindspring.com>,  9     	rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: / > In article <8msq0f$qm6@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,  )     	mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu wrote:  >  >>   >>   $ set def [.foobar]@ >>   %DCL-I-INVDEF, USRDISK:[USERS.MATHOG.FOOBAR] does not exist > ; > I've never seen this info message.  Is it new in VMS 7.2?   H         Apparently David left out a SHOW DEFAULT in the transcript.  TheH     SHOW DEFAULT command will issue that message, at least under VMS 5.58     and above...the oldest VMS version I have access to.           -Ken --  M  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edu :  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:18:43 -0400 . From: Hank Vander Waal <hvanderw@novagate.com> Subject: decserver 2508 Message-ID: <000001c002f7$6b4e11b0$2b96a8c6@mscmain.com>  D Does anyone know where I can find the software for a Decserver 250??   TIA    Hank Vander Waal Mansco Hudsonville MI   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:04:02 GMT" From: scanlonj@aol.com (Scanlon J) Subject: Re: decserver 250: Message-ID: <20000810160402.16482.00000177@ng-cd1.aol.com>  M Since Compaq has acqired "CEC", I would try contacting them, or you could try  their website "www.compaq.com"   Jim    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Aug 2000 00:30:51 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)H Subject: RE: DSNlink, modems and WIS (was: Re: Web browser and VMS mail)* Message-ID: <39932d1b$1@news.kapsch.co.at>   In article <9ADQdkm7DevX@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:I >        FWIW, I've been _very_  happy  with  TCP/IP access using DSNlink I >    2.2E.  There were a few issues with Multinet, and with the fact that I >    our  host  is multihomed (multiple IP addresses for the same  domain I >    name but only _one_ of those accessible from  off-site).   But  once I >    those  were  solved,  it's  been  quite reliable, more reliable than , >    modem access, and FAR, FAR FASTER.  :-)  F We used to have V1.2C via X.25 (on a VAX) running over a 64kBit/s LineF (DATEXP_A) on a DECnis600 and in parallel V2.2E via TCPIP (on a Alpha)8 running over our (very saturated 1MBit/s) Internet Link.   So, I can't comment on modems.M But we never had stability problems with X.25 and performance was satisfying.   I >        Note that many people have complained about modem support (bugs) I >    in DNSlink 2.2.  Another  cluster  at  our  site (with the modem) is I >    still  running  DSNlink 1.2C for that reason.  But if you _can_  use I >    TCP/IP, even through a firewall, then you may  find  yourself  quite  >    happy with DSNlink 2.2E.   L No. I'm not happy. They changed the command line syntax (DIR/SIN => DIR/BEG,B MAIL to DSN% => DSN CREATE, and so on), you now have no spawn, theE connection establishes in much more time (sending some encrypted text K over and over) than before, extracting an article to a file gives you files L with every character in a single line !! And I fought with V2 for years now.M If I have to pay such software, they will never get any money for it by me...    --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 17:54:52 PDTT From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515)H Subject: RE: DSNlink, modems and WIS (was: Re: Web browser and VMS mail)3 Message-ID: <obFClAVECKlS@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>X  + In article <39932d1b$1@news.kapsch.co.at>,  1     	eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:T [...]oN > No. I'm not happy. They changed the command line syntax (DIR/SIN => DIR/BEG,/ > MAIL to DSN% => DSN CREATE, and so on), [...]   H         Just on this one  point,  MAIL  to  DSN% _still_ works.  I'm not9     trying to shill for V2.2, but let's not go overboard.            -Ken -- SM  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edud:  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------   Date: 10 AUG 2000 17:12:14 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)' Subject: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwiseo6 Message-ID: <10AUG00.17121421@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  L In a previous article, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: -> bN ->Based on the not-inconsiderable expense of Halon, system tests involving theL ->fire suppression agent itself are rare these days. Typically the system isM ->charged with nitrogen for the qualification test, then recharged with Halont  ->when it's placed into service.  B Back in '82 I was involved in halon system test (by a fire systems= contractor) for a computer room without actually using halon:y  ? They charged the system with Freon (R-12!), then set it off andnG monitored the freon level in the room over a ten minute period. How did K they vent the freon from the room? Opened the doors and used a big fan with H 100 feet of makeshift plastic duct (pieces of .03 mil pvc taped togetherD to form a 3' by 100' inflatable tube) to the outside. Of course thatG leaked like a sieve and the building was evacuated for 30 minutes while 6 the freon dissipated. Ralph Nader would not be amused.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:03:14 -0600-1 From: Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>A1 Subject: Re: GTK+ now available for OpenVMS Alphaa4 Message-ID: <3992B622.62398303@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>   John E. Malmberg wrote:-   M > MMS or MMK should accept a UN*X-style makefile.  IIRC: it first looks for ahD > descrip.mms, and if it does not fine one, it looks for "makefile."  G Gave that a shot with both MMS and MMK (latest version for the latter).eF Both choke on rather vague syntax errors. I was able to eliminate someD of them by eliminating IFDEFs and IFNDEFs, but then ran into a brick wall...o   Glen   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:50:37 GMT ! From: "Ian Shiel" <ishiel@iol.ie>N= Subject: Re: How to backup files since the last image backup.E, Message-ID: <hdHk5.594$sa4.2526@news.iol.ie>  G I am told that there is also a bug in backup/mod/since=backup - in somewK circumstances it will take entire directories if only one file is modified.hB You might check a BACKUP/LIST vs DIR/FULL on a few files to check.  L I use backup/mod/since='hard-coded-date-of-last-image' to get around this. IH don't do incrementals (multiple tapes) - I do differentials (one tape of2 everything modified since image) replaced nightly.   Hope this helpsc
 ishiel@iol.ie   1 <Stephen_Boroczky@nemmco.com.au> wrote in messageb= news:OFA415C767.DBA19D0B-ON4A256930.000928E9@nemmco.com.au...oF > We would like to peform nightly backups of only those files that had& > changed since the last image backup. >w& > To perform the image backup we used: >e > $ backup/image/record .... > C > which did update the backup date on each file that was backed up.f >a- > Now, when we do the nightly backup, we do as >s > $ backup/since=backup .... >tK > hoping to capture only those files that had changed since the last backup  > date.o >kI > However, we have found that most, if not all the files, are still beingnG > backed up, even files which have their created and modifed dates welltC > before the backup date.   Our backup tape is starting to overrun.o >h@ > If anybody has any suggestions they would be most appreciated. >d	 > Thanks.o >I > Stephen Boroczky) > EMS Applications & Modelling Specialist % > NEMMCO, Carlingford, NSW, Australiar' > Email: stephen_boroczky@nemmco.com.au  >y >h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:31:39 -0400e, From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>' Subject: Re: IEEE floating-point formatc8 Message-ID: <n6t5pscnmbqnqh47qomers1uid8tt35i4j@4ax.com>  1 On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:17:00 -0500, "Ken Halprin"r <khalprin@autosoln.com> wrote:  L >Can anyone tell me how to convert IEEE format floating-point numbers to VMSJ >format? I need to transfer data between a WindowsNT workstation and a DEC >VAX.D  E OpenVMS includes a run-time library routine, CVT$CONVERT_FLOAT, which C will convert in either direction.  Compaq Fortran on both platformse> also includes automatic conversion of data in unformatted I/O.      - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)l Fortran Engineerings& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:37:57 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment+ Message-ID: <e5mDi9mqUUw7@eisner.decus.org>   ` In article <lmd5pss0u5dvdbn2sta717n125lnjgl10p@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@dialupnet.com> writes:, > On Sun, 06 Aug 2000 22:40:29 -0700, ChuckT2 > <chuck.taylorNOchSPAM@vishay.com.invalid> wrote: > G >>The second thing that happened was that they didn't believe that Unix H >>was ever going to amount to anything.  Ken Olsen, the former presidentH >>of Digital once said the "Unix, is snake oil".  They missed the windowH >>of opertunity then and have had a difficult time getting back on track >>every since. >  > E > This is a mis-representation of what Ken Olsen said.  What he said,rB > IIRC, was that companies selling Unix into the business-criticalG > market were selling snake oil.  At the time, this was absolutely truee+ > - and to some extent, is even true today.@  B _My_ recollection is that he said people selling Unix as providingB utterly transparent portability of applications were selling snake+ oil.  That one is still totally true today.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:38:16 -0700p+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>P, Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment' Message-ID: <39932ED8.F5301F5@mmaz.com>d   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  D > _My_ recollection is that he said people selling Unix as providingD > utterly transparent portability of applications were selling snake- > oil.  That one is still totally true today.w  c I concur and believe this was both Olsen's strength and undoing.  He built a great company, but DEC c stumbled with the VAXmate, with the BI, to some extent with Ultrix which was the bastard sibling ofac VMS, and his inability to eliminate under-performing or redundant employees.  This was all the latek` 1980's; most of the businesses along Route 128 took a beating during this same time and most are gone.   c Then steps in CQ Palmer to do the gutting and filleting that Olsen couldn't evidently bring himselfP to do.  \ The fact that Olsen had a problem with selling vapor-ware as well as vapor-solutions, unlikec business of the last decade and today, I think was one of the moral strengths of DEC.  What arrivedt. on your dock is what you thought you bought...  a What I've always wondered is that if DEC didn't have the no-layoff policy, whether it was implied b for formal, and Olsen had cut costs, and Palmer was never placed at the helm, and DEC didn't stilla sell off many of its corporate jewels, and had refused to dance with the devil (Microsoft), would a DEC have still be swallowed by Compaq?  A lot of if's, but it does cause one to pause and wonder.n\ Baan being eaten for 'survival', SCO too by Caldera, and many more from just todays paper...   Just my 2 cents.   Barryt   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:58:11 GMTm4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>, Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment; Message-ID: <7sGk5.5549$pu4.396728@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>    >aF > > _My_ recollection is that he said people selling Unix as providingF > > utterly transparent portability of applications were selling snake/ > > oil.  That one is still totally true today.a  L Correct. Ken was not maligning the Unix OS (although he was not particularlyJ enamored of same), he was taking aim at specious claims by Unix purveyors.   >nL > I concur and believe this was both Olsen's strength and undoing.  He built a great company, but DECJ > stumbled with the VAXmate, with the BI, to some extent with Ultrix which was the bastard sibling ofC > VMS, and his inability to eliminate under-performing or redundantv! employees.  This was all the laterK > 1980's; most of the businesses along Route 128 took a beating during thisi same time and most are > gone.n >w  H Gone they are. Last one to bite the dust was DG, which got compaq-ted by EMC.  K DEC's PC stumble began long before the VAXmate (a $6K AT-compatible with anwH Ethernet card... the joke at the time is that both DEC and Hyundai wouldJ sell you an AT-compatible PC for $6K, but only Hyundai would include a carI with the PC). Remember the Rainbow, DECmate, and Pro 350. Three different3L products (all of which were hard to go out and buy thanks to a bass-ackwardsF distribution strategy) when one would have done. The DECmate WP systemI probably was the most successful of the three... the Pro was hobbled withsI the hated P/OS operating system instead of something decent like RSX, and.A the Rainbow was one display line short of full IBM compatibility.k  D > Then steps in CQ Palmer to do the gutting and filleting that Olsen  couldn't evidently bring himself > to do. >mF > The fact that Olsen had a problem with selling vapor-ware as well as vapor-solutions, unlike E > business of the last decade and today, I think was one of the morala strengths of DEC.  What arrivedt0 > on your dock is what you thought you bought... >hL > What I've always wondered is that if DEC didn't have the no-layoff policy, whether it was impliedI > for formal, and Olsen had cut costs, and Palmer was never placed at the1 helm, and DEC didn't stillJ > sell off many of its corporate jewels, and had refused to dance with the devil (Microsoft), wouldJ > DEC have still be swallowed by Compaq?  A lot of if's, but it does cause one to pause and wonder.I > Baan being eaten for 'survival', SCO too by Caldera, and many more from8 just todays paper...  K I guess we'll never know, but there are plenty of "what if" alternate-worlddI scenarios. I would say that DEC"s biggest mistakes during the mid to lateC 80's included:  - Belated recognition of the importance of PCs.e  I "                        "                            "  of Unix and opena systems.  J "                        '                            "   of workstations.  K Refusal to make VAX/VMS a more open solution (same thing Apple did with ther Mac).h  : But then again, we are all blessed with 20-20 hindsight...   terry s    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:02:14 -0400d' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>>, Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment( Message-ID: <8mvc6f$lko$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 Barry Treahy, Jr. <Treahy@mmaz.com> wrote in message! news:39932ED8.F5301F5@mmaz.com...n > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >lF > > _My_ recollection is that he said people selling Unix as providingF > > utterly transparent portability of applications were selling snake/ > > oil.  That one is still totally true today.  > L > I concur and believe this was both Olsen's strength and undoing.  He built a great company, but DECJ > stumbled with the VAXmate, with the BI, to some extent with Ultrix which was the bastard sibling ofC > VMS, and his inability to eliminate under-performing or redundantD
 employees.  D At the rate DEC was growing, it could have been supporting a sizableJ percentage of the U. S. population by now, without eliminating anyone - asI long as it had just stuck them off in a corner where they couldn't do any  harm.t     This was all the latewK > 1980's; most of the businesses along Route 128 took a beating during thisS same time and most are > gone.  > D > Then steps in CQ Palmer to do the gutting and filleting that Olsen  couldn't evidently bring himself > to do.  K It certainly appeared that Palmer had no better idea of who was useful - intC fact, probably a far worse one:  he just cut right and left withoutt discriminating very much.K   >hF > The fact that Olsen had a problem with selling vapor-ware as well as vapor-solutions, unlike E > business of the last decade and today, I think was one of the moralA strengths of DEC.  What arrived-0 > on your dock is what you thought you bought... >-L > What I've always wondered is that if DEC didn't have the no-layoff policy, whether it was implied& > for formal, and Olsen had cut costs,  I Layoffs and cost-cutting were superficial solutions to non-core problems.eK DEC lost its sense of direction in the mid-'80s, and lost important marketsyH soon thereafter:  if it had retained its acuity, it would have been just fine.e   - bill  >  and Palmer was never placed at the helm, and DEC didn't stillJ > sell off many of its corporate jewels, and had refused to dance with the devil (Microsoft), wouldJ > DEC have still be swallowed by Compaq?  A lot of if's, but it does cause one to pause and wonder.I > Baan being eaten for 'survival', SCO too by Caldera, and many more from- just todays paper... >  > Just my 2 cents. >: > Barry  >m >p >@ >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:37:06 -0400W' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>9, Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment( Message-ID: <8mvhob$sl5$1@pyrite.mv.net>  G Oh, God - I can see another half-hour evaporating already:  I sure hopei, *someone* finds the following interesting...  = Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagei5 news:7sGk5.5549$pu4.396728@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...    ...s  J > DEC's PC stumble began long before the VAXmate (a $6K AT-compatible with anJ > Ethernet card... the joke at the time is that both DEC and Hyundai wouldL > sell you an AT-compatible PC for $6K, but only Hyundai would include a carK > with the PC). Remember the Rainbow, DECmate, and Pro 350. Three differenta@ > products (all of which were hard to go out and buy thanks to a
 bass-ackwardslH > distribution strategy) when one would have done. The DECmate WP systemK > probably was the most successful of the three... the Pro was hobbled withfG > the hated P/OS operating system instead of something decent like RSX,d  H ... except that P/OS *was* RSX:  a slightly-enhanced RSX-11M-Plus, to be exact.  / But it was still hated, for a bunch of reasons:1  E It was hated (well, at least a little) by the RSX development group - J because it didn't belong to them and they felt the people to whom it *did*G belong weren't using it properly.  I don't know to what degree that was F because Ron Ham (actually, it may have been someone he reported to - IL forget now) was building an empire rather than simply a higher-level attemptJ to emulate the successful (separate, entrepreneurial) model the IBM PC hadL just followed, but the result was a group of relatively junior people tryingK to build upon M-Plus to create a user-friendly, application-friendly (i.e.,.I something developers less experienced than hard-core RSX types could use)eJ packaged environment.  A couple of senior RSX people moved over, and thereD were reasonably bright architects (who may have been brought in fromI outside) whose vision unfortunately exceeded their practicality (that was L the first time I remember significant use of the phrase 'fucking architect':C up until that time in DEC's history, architects seemed to have been-I generally respected, hands-on types - or quickly shuffled elsewhere), but.K much of the actual implementation fell on eager but inexperienced shoulders @ and the initial result was predictably a pyramid of kludges just sufficiently stable to ship.  F It was hated (or at least somewhat feared) by traditional PDP-11 salesJ organizations because it cost about 25% of what an entry-level PDP-11 costJ (later, more like 35%, but still a *lot* less) and was sold through (IIRC)L different channels (can't remember whether the sales force had returned to aJ commissioned sales model by then, but even if not the organizations needed their profit numbers).  F It was hated by (at least some) customers, because they *knew* RSX wasK hiding somewhere inside but couldn't get permission to use it - because therJ Pro group wanted to keep its future internals options open, not unlike theF Win32 facade that protects the raw NT system interface today, and (seeH above) because DEC really didn't want people buying Pros to perform jobsJ they'd otherwise need full-profit-margin PDP-11s to do (one of the earlierL indications that DEC had lost the awareness that competing with itself was a virtue).  F The above included distaste by traditional DEC customers (and internalL people) for its menu-style interface.  But in retrospect this too was unfairE (except as it reflected DEC's unwillingness to encourage command-lineiK operation too):  the interface was developed IIRC around 1982, when the IBMoG PC was command-line oriented (but applications were starting to presentiK ASCII-text menu interfaces, and the system *may* have provided some supportsK for this), well before even the Apple Lisa appeared (at twice the cost of acJ Pro) in 1983, let alone the Mac in 1984 - but something point-and-clickishG was definitely the correct direction to be heading in for the market atrL which the Pro was aimed (which is not to say that market was as varied as it should have been).  D Too bad:  the Pro was certainly DEC's best shot at an alternative toE complete standardization around the IBM PC (because, as is obvious ingK retrospect, the market really did want a standard if they bought a PC - and L the Rainbow, while close, got no cigar), and M-Plus was the system to do theL job.  But by 1985 the handwriting "VAX (VMS) is the future!" was on the wallJ (even though Ethernet-connected transparent client/server P/OS distributedH systems - similar to Unix clusters today, except without fail-over - hadI just shipped) and most effort ceased in early 1986, marking the effectiveiK withdrawal of a platform that was dramatically superior in many respects toh the standard competition.n   ...e  = > I guess we'll never know, but there are plenty of "what if"t alternate-world K > scenarios. I would say that DEC"s biggest mistakes during the mid to lateo > 80's included: >-/ > Belated recognition of the importance of PCs.:  I Biggest one, IMO.  When the PC first appeared, it was clear (to me, and IlG suspect to others) that the 8086/8, while inferior to the PDP-11, couldlL compete with it and would eventually equal it without aggressive developmentD on DEC's part to maintain its initial commanding lead in that marketJ segment.  When the 80386 was announced, it was equally clear that it couldG eventually compete with VAX - again, unless DEC vigorously defended itsdJ low-end market segments (which it could easily have done with the 11 until5 there was cost-competitive 32-bit hardware to field).l   > K > "                        "                            "  of Unix and open 
 > systems.  H I can't claim to have understood this issue at the time (knowing nothingI about Unix then, and little enough now).  But I'll bet some of the formerhJ RSTS and PDP-10/20 people did, and if VMS had embraced Unix (which to someL degree was what the DECWest effort was doing, in working on a common kernel)E instead of remaining so pure that the DEC Unix effort became not only ; separate but hostile things could have been very different.y   >eL > "                        '                            "   of workstations.  K Kind of a 'Which came first?' issue, when considered with the previous one.iG If VMS had run on inexpensive, high-performance workstations, it likely E could have stifled the Unix advance in the late '80s (but inexpensiveaI hardware could have been hard to create, and expecting DEC to have portedeG VMS *at that time* to 386 hardware seems unreasonable).  But if VMS hadfK supported a simple, Unix-style development environment for (terminal-style)-I business applications, Unix might have developed a foothold in what would L never have been more than a niche market - since the cost and performance of> VAXes was fine for low-to-mid-range business use at that time.   >uI > Refusal to make VAX/VMS a more open solution (same thing Apple did with: theC > Mac).   D A Unix personality plus good data-sharing facilities (then and now aI hot-button for me) might have been sufficient to make its upper interfaceDC open enough - and if it had been headed in the direction of desktophK dominance, I suspect enough lower interface (third-party device) developersl& would have embraced it to make it fly.   >n< > But then again, we are all blessed with 20-20 hindsight...  I Enough of us could see enough of the pieces back then that DEC could haveqK made the right choices:  the problem was refusal to see them, not inability-G to see them.  That refusal came as the result of management by strategygL rather than simply continuing to be guided by what customers wanted (coupledK with awareness of what could reasonably be delivered) and giving it to them5H at a fair price.  And the philosophy of management by strategy I suspectI arose from DEC's success and a resulting lack of humility:  a virtue most I companies and most high-level managers could benefit from having more of.h   - bill   > 	 > terry st >m >t >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:05:37 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus); Message-ID: <R9Ck5.5495$pu4.394912@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>n  0 <system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote in message% news:8muhq9$6g6$1@husk.cso.niu.edu...b8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >mJ > >> A steam-generating fossil-fuel power station has a thermal efficiency of5 > >> the order of 32 percent, nuclear slightly lower.p >i> > IIRC, that is the Carnot efficiency.  I could have sworn theA > nukes were slightly higher, but that is probably just my memory- > going flaky again. >aJ > >Consistent with the above, if you're implying BTUs in (into the boiler) andPL > >KWH out (of your mains). No power station could remain in business if its4 > >steam generators were only ~30 percent efficient. >oH > Since all power stations run at about 30% and since power stations areF > the only available large scale source of electricity and electricity@ > does things people want done that no other energy form can ... >s  A Then I am misinformed. As were the authors of  Babcock and WilcoxtK Corporation's "Steam: Its Generation and Use" magnum opus. Back when I usedsG to conduct boiler efficiency tests, I used the formula included in saiddE treatise, and the results generally came out in high 80 percent rangeaL (utility company oil and natural gas-fired boilers typically did better, oldH stocker-fed coal-fired boilers did worse) based on fuel in and pounds of steam per hour out.l  I Whatever, none of the above has much to do with computers, except that...l  F The University of Rochester in the 1970's used a Bailey 750 electronic6 combustion control system based on a PDP-11 processor.  B At least one New York State utility company relied on VAXen to runL "dispersion models" which would predict where the radioactive plume would goE should the reactor experience a, umm, "significant excursion." Due to D potential liability issues, DEC sold the VAXen to a third party, not  directly to the utility company.  / And now, back to the world of VMS and DECpaq...o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:49:44 GMTn- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>a6 Subject: Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus)( Message-ID: <39930755.BC559995@ohio.edu>  - OK, this is an area where I know something...M  K The chemical energy to heat energy transfer efficiency that Terry speaks ofnN could well be 80%.  You know some heat goes up the smokestack.  The 30% figureM that others have mentioned is the heat energy to mechanical energy conversioniM of the "heat engine" -- Carnot or turbine or Watt.  Thermodynamics limits the N heat to mechanical efficiency depending on the ratio of temperature differenceM to the absolute temperature of the colder (environment), which for reasonableaO combustion and steam temperatures and a hot summer day's cooling tower is goingo to be on the order of 30%.  O Nuclear plants always have two circulation systems:  primary coolant (typically K air, water, or melted sodium metal) that is in direct contact with the fueliD assemblies and is exposed to neutron bombardment, therefore becomingM contaminated with radioactive materials, and the secondary coolant, typicallytI water that is turned to steam to run the turbines to drive the generator.sH There is always some efficiency lost in the transfer of heat between the* primary coolant and the secondary coolant.  #                                 RDP.     "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o  2 > <system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote in message' > news:8muhq9$6g6$1@husk.cso.niu.edu...a: > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >hL > > >> A steam-generating fossil-fuel power station has a thermal efficiency > of7 > > >> the order of 32 percent, nuclear slightly lower.. > >D@ > > IIRC, that is the Carnot efficiency.  I could have sworn theC > > nukes were slightly higher, but that is probably just my memoryf > > going flaky again. > >nL > > >Consistent with the above, if you're implying BTUs in (into the boiler) > andsN > > >KWH out (of your mains). No power station could remain in business if its6 > > >steam generators were only ~30 percent efficient. > > J > > Since all power stations run at about 30% and since power stations areH > > the only available large scale source of electricity and electricityB > > does things people want done that no other energy form can ... > >  >tC > Then I am misinformed. As were the authors of  Babcock and Wilcox,M > Corporation's "Steam: Its Generation and Use" magnum opus. Back when I used I > to conduct boiler efficiency tests, I used the formula included in saidrG > treatise, and the results generally came out in high 80 percent rangedN > (utility company oil and natural gas-fired boilers typically did better, oldJ > stocker-fed coal-fired boilers did worse) based on fuel in and pounds of > steam per hour out.  >tK > Whatever, none of the above has much to do with computers, except that...f >lH > The University of Rochester in the 1970's used a Bailey 750 electronic8 > combustion control system based on a PDP-11 processor. >eD > At least one New York State utility company relied on VAXen to runN > "dispersion models" which would predict where the radioactive plume would goG > should the reactor experience a, umm, "significant excursion." Due toeF > potential liability issues, DEC sold the VAXen to a third party, not" > directly to the utility company. >.1 > And now, back to the world of VMS and DECpaq...a   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 04:27:59 GMTp+ From: Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> 6 Subject: Re: More on Son of Aquarius (VAX 9000 Aridus); Message-ID: <jhLk5.5621$pu4.418211@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  F >Hmmm... assuming fossil-fuel power generation, we're looking at 89-92L >percent steam generator efficiency, 1-2 percent heat loss to turbine-drivenM >electrical generator, and distribution line loss of 10-50 percent, there's anI >lot o' Lost Electricity. Hence on a BTU basis the aircraft might be moreiI >fuel-efficient. And a 747-400 with a glass-panel cockpit update has moreo2 >computational horsepower than a cluster of 9000s.  J I think the related postings may be comparing apples and oranges.  I thinkH the 89-92% efficiency above is that theoretically achieveable given that& the heat dump is not at absolute zero.  I I think the 32% figure comes from the BTU in, Kw out.  The reason for thenG lower efficiency of the nuclear plants is largely due to them producing B lower temperature steam and being a victim of such thermodynamics.  K >That said, I am unaware of any runway collisions involving a pair of 9000sv; >(remember Tenerife Island). Collided page faults, maybe...   I Obviously you've never put an oscilloscope on a ethernet that was runningWI near saturation!  Pretty ugly, but the collisions don't eat up much time,I7 so I quit being distressed over 50-80% collision rates.o  % >Chair, Matco for President Committee 3 >"Charlie Matco: Fighting for Working Compaq Users"c  3 The liberals are fighting for jobless Compaq Users?e --@ Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net; http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 22:50:34 GMT& From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen)1 Subject: Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.coms5 Message-ID: <8mvbjq$16m$1@newssvr02.news.prodigy.com>a  H In article <8lug56$bla$10@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:7 | In article <8lsmbo$5ee$1@newssvr02.news.prodigy.com>,t, |    davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen) wrote:  D | >  TOPS-20 went the way of MULTICS, no hardware made any more, and  | >software not support or sold. | 2 | Wrong.  TOPS-10 isn't supported or sold anymore.G | PDP-10s are alive and well running TOPS20.  They just don't have thatg% | putrid d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo on them.h  D   As in supported and available new, or as in hasn't died of old ageH yet. I can still boot V7 UNIX on a PDP-11 and Sys-III on an XT, assumingC the hardware hasn't died, but if TOPS-20 is still available or eveno> supported I'm surprised. 36 bits is soooo much better than 32!   -- t<   bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>  CTO, TMR Associates, IncF Make the rules? I don't make the rules. I don't even FOLLOW the rules!   ------------------------------   Date: 10 AUG 2000 17:22:41 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwisea6 Message-ID: <10AUG00.17224196@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  G In a previous article, Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> wrote:b  1 ->In the old pre-CFC days, ammonia gas was used. s  G Sulfur dioxide was also used in the early 1900's - talk about stench! InD think it was also the very first refrigerant used in sealed systems.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 23:52:26 GMT0 From: jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone)/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwised, Message-ID: <8mvf7q$hdh$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>  - In article <39922383.3DAD4086@earthlink.net>, 6 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote: >"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >[snip]eF >> Both Freon and Halon (1301 and 1411) are halogenated hydrocarbons,   H >If free chlorine is truly the ozone threat, then why not ban the use ofG >chlorine in swimming pools (tons of chlorine-bearing compunds in solidtG >form are used every year), and the use of sodium hypochlorite solutionyH >(chlorine bleach) for laundry and sanitation (100s of thousands, if notI >millions of gallons daily), not to mention the tons and tons of chlorine C >used in drinking water supplies every month across the country andw >around the world?  E Totally off-topic for these newsgroups, but: you've confused two verylF different things: "free" (unoxidized) chlorine, and chlorine radicals.  @ Cloroflurocarbons, once relased into the atmosphere, can migrateF through the atmosphere into the stratosphere, where ionizing radiationE can strip off the chlorine atom, prodcing free chlorine radicals (Cl,aB _not_ Cl2). The free chlorine radicals are very reactive, and theyC will eventually recombine with other chemicals. The problem is thats= when free chlorine radicals react wtih ozone (O3), they breaks= down the O3 into O2 and re-release the free chlorine radical.l  C Cl2 from the sources you mention (aqueous solution) doesn't make itl= into the stratosphere; it tends ot react with other chemicalseI first. (Youre' talking about bleaches and antibacterial agentts, sheesh!)i  4 This really isn't much beyond high-school chemistry.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:14:34 -0700i* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwiset= Message-ID: <cAHk5.1469$NM6.52728@news-west.usenetserver.com>   = "Jonathan Stone" <jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message & news:8mvf7q$hdh$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU...B > Cloroflurocarbons, once relased into the atmosphere, can migrateH > through the atmosphere into the stratosphere, where ionizing radiationG > can strip off the chlorine atom, prodcing free chlorine radicals (Cl,dD > _not_ Cl2). The free chlorine radicals are very reactive, and theyE > will eventually recombine with other chemicals. The problem is that ? > when free chlorine radicals react wtih ozone (O3), they breakp? > down the O3 into O2 and re-release the free chlorine radical.  > D Which begs the question, if the end result is O2 then why doesnt theC same ionizing radiation convert the O2 to O3?  Isn't that where thedF ozone comes from in the first place?  Or do we need to start stripping= out emission controls from cars to replenish the ozone layer?     Jack Peacocko   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:48:34 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>s/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwisee- Message-ID: <39937792.AEF327F2@earthlink.net>e   Jack Peacock wrote:v > ? > "Jonathan Stone" <jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU> wrote in messageo( > news:8mvf7q$hdh$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU...D > > Cloroflurocarbons, once relased into the atmosphere, can migrateJ > > through the atmosphere into the stratosphere, where ionizing radiationI > > can strip off the chlorine atom, prodcing free chlorine radicals (Cl,-F > > _not_ Cl2). The free chlorine radicals are very reactive, and theyG > > will eventually recombine with other chemicals. The problem is that A > > when free chlorine radicals react wtih ozone (O3), they breaklA > > down the O3 into O2 and re-release the free chlorine radical.  > >tF > Which begs the question, if the end result is O2 then why doesnt theE > same ionizing radiation convert the O2 to O3?  Isn't that where the H > ozone comes from in the first place?  Or do we need to start stripping? > out emission controls from cars to replenish the ozone layer?  >    Jack Peacocka  H Well, I could open the discussion of volume (free chlorine vs. CHFC) and  atomic/molecular weights, but...  G My wife and I moved into this house about two years ago. We had to turne= off the electrostatic air cleaner because of excessive ozone.a  G Now, the normal production of ozone "up there" is too slow to keep pace B with the effects of ozone depletion. However, if we can make ozoneH (whether we want it or not), there should be a way that man-made devices4 can be sent aloft to contribute to ozone production.  @ As to the question of "high school" chemistry, consider yourselfE fortunate. What you're talking about was college-level stuff 28 years  ago.  G As to the discussion of what happens to free Cl2, I have a question: Wen@ know that things don't just "magically disappear". Where does itH (chlorine) go? ...and what happens when we keep increasing the amount of9 "stuff" we "dump" into the environment? Think about it...   H ...and yes I *AM* talking about bleaches and disinfectants - names don'tF "magically" make chemical agents any less formidable. Another example:E it doesn't matter whether you call it a "Silver Salute" or a "quarter H stick", it'll still blow off your hand and a good chunk of your forearm.9 (Anyone besides me know what a "Minnesota Limit" is/was?)t   -- t David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:08:22 -0500u7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>( Subject: Re: PCM / CommandIT- Message-ID: <39936E26.252FE3B5@earthlink.net>    pmart63@my-deja.com wrote: >  > Hello,I >     currently using Polycentre Console Manager (PCM) on Alpha VMS V7.1.-G > Effectively being forced to go to CA's CommandIT if I want to upgradeoB > OS. Demo run of product reveals licensing problem and CA are notI > entirely filling me with confidence as regards resolution. Anybody knownI > of any other product that runs on alpha VMS V7.1 AND above with similargE > (if not the same) functionality as PCM? Please let me know. Thanks.I  ? The best advice seems to be to keep a small Alpha or VAX aroundo: dedicated to PCM, until a suitable substitute comes along.   -- e David J. Dachtera0 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:52:59 -0500 (EST) * From: Pedro Viena <contracer2@hotmail.com>) Subject: seeing fragmentation disk statuss5 Message-ID: <F210ro8IGk6uXAiK7Vv000052a4@hotmail.com>l  
 Hi VMS gurus:n    3    Is there any way to see the fragmentation statusy  "    of a disk DS-RZ1DA-VW (9 GB ) ?  8    What command can I issue in the Defrag utility to see      this information ?   "    This device is a member raid 5.          Thank you in advance...H ________________________________________________________________________H Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:23:14 -0500g7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> - Subject: Re: seeing fragmentation disk statuse- Message-ID: <399371A2.D2EB6189@earthlink.net>r   Pedro Viena wrote: >  > Hi VMS gurus:w > 5 >    Is there any way to see the fragmentation statuso > $ >    of a disk DS-RZ1DA-VW (9 GB ) ? > : >    What command can I issue in the Defrag utility to see >  >    this information ?o  - See HELP DEFRAG and/or the DFO documentation.    $ >    This device is a member raid 5.   Irrelevant..   --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:45:16 -0400 2 From: "Carmine Castiglia" <ccastiglia@engsint.com>) Subject: Serial printer on DECServer 90L+ + Message-ID: <8mv48u$ap2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   C Can someone clarify please:  Should a serial printer connected to aiG DECServer 90L+ port be configured as RS-232 or as RS-422 communicationsm? protocol?  Complete configuration information (flow control/DTRu* handling/etc) would be really appreciated.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 02:37:48 GMTh/ From: Hans.Bachner@altavista.net (Hans Bachner)r Subject: Re: TCPIP stacksl* Message-ID: <3993659f.9661392@news.aon.at>  P Jeff Schreiber <schreiber@process.com> wrote on Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:15:01 -0400:   <snip>H >  I'm not sure you can get UCX support for 5.5.  If your running 5.5-2,% >  You can run Multinet or TCPware.   I Yes, you can get UCX support for OpenVMS V5.5-2 (so-called "prior versiont support", just like the OS).  G UCX V4.0 (with current ECOs) is supported with OpenVMS V5.5-2. While it O initially required OpenVMS V6.x, it was qualified for V5.5-2 as part of the Y2Ki testing.  1 >  Pricing is something I don't know much about, dP Nor do I. I suggest you contact your next Compaq office or a reseller who offersM OpenVMS systems. To the best of my knowledge, the prices are not available on  the web pages.   Hope this helps.  : ---------------- speaking only for myself ---------------- Hans Bachner Compaq Computer Austriae+ Compaq Customer Services - Software Support  E-Mail: Hans.Bachner@compaq.comt   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 19:55:32 GMT- From: "Phil Tregoning" <ptregoni@esoc.esa.de>n/ Subject: Re: Telnet in a single line command...u= Message-ID: <01c00303$414fade0$4b53b083@ptregoni.esoc.esa.de>   @ Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@whitehouse.nl> wrote in article$ <3992C18E.4F596680@whitehouse.nl>... > Phil Tregoning wrote:e > < > > > You can use outbound tn devices for this (TELNET> help create_session).I > > > From there you can open the created tn device from dcl and read ande > > > write to it. > > D > > Can you give a working example? The only thing I've ever managedD > > to achieve with TELNET/CREATE_SESSION is a hung workstation (*). > J > Ok, the following dcl sends a mail message to myself on my linux server: > % > $ telnet /create server 25 101/time ( > $ set ter/noecho/perm/type/past tna101   [SNIP Some DCL]a   > $ exit  I Thanks, that almost works for me. I get some message from the SMTP serveroK but it doesn't quite get as far as sending a mail message - I'll look at ito a bit more.n   >  > > 
 > > Phil T > >   > > * This hangs my workstation: > > 7 > >   $ TELNET/CREATE_SESSION node 23 100 /PROTO=TELNETs > H > Can you be more specific as what you mean by 'hangs'? And what versionF > do you use? In the above example I use TCPIP V5.0A on VAX/VMS V7.1-2 >   K Well, everything stopped working except the mouse. I wasn't quite sure why,  asI last time I tried this I just rebooted. I've just done it again with AMDS H Console watching from another node, and Interrupt Mode processing jumpedE to 100%, with loads of other processes in COM. Stopping the process IiF typed the command in from didn't work (i.e. the process didn't die) so I crashed the node.s  @ The "node" in the command was the local node, so I don't know if/ it is the client or server that is responsible.   ? This only seems to happen with the /PROTO=TELNET qualifier, but @ I believe the telnet protocol is a bit more complicated than theA SMTP protocol, and I didn't want to bother with all that stuff, In; just wanted to get a "Username:" prompt and go from there. a  C If this was in any way important, I would raise it with Compaq, butoG I was only trying to automate (for my own convenience) a rather lengthycI procedure we have here for getting through a firewall. I can always do ita	 manually.h  ? I'm using TCPIP V5.0 (yes, I know, I should upgrade to 5.0A) onc Alpha/VMS 7.2.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:36:17 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 8 Subject: Re: Too bad the Q didn't think of this first...+ Message-ID: <R1KI9CdgfW7K@eisner.decus.org>   h In article <39926F84.7F9717B2@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> writes:I > Imagine a combination of WIS on steroids, a portal, and a Slashdot-likenI > community webboard, except for Sun admins. A CENTRALIZED resource aimedhH > specifically at admins, which the OpenVMS website lacks, which insteadH > seems to sprinkle technical material and marketing collatoral together > in a mishmash.  B I suggest you telnet to eisner.decus.org.  Or for voyeur mode, use that as an http address.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:50:19 GMT=* From: Forrest Cahoon <fcahoon@my-deja.com>2 Subject: Trouble building ImageMagick-5.2.2 on VMS) Message-ID: <8mvf3q$fqu$1@nnrp1.deja.com>s   I got the fileC ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/ImageMagick/vms/ImagMagick-5.2.2.zip, and I-G can't get it to build properly.  The error I get is with the file XWD.Cw in the [.CODERS] directory:u   Making Coders... Compiling XWD.CA     status=XInitImage(ximage);
 .........^E %CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "XInitImage" isd" implicitly declared as a function. at line number 243 in file7 SCRATCH:[FCAHOON.IMAGEMAGICK.IMAGEMAGICK.CODERS]XWD.C;1f  G The build continues, but it gives a bunch of warnings. I haven't testeddE any executables, but in my experience this warning is a recipie for at2 stack dump, so I'd really like to fix the code up.  G I've dinked around with the #includes, but haven't found the magic key.m  4 Has anyone else had this problem?  Anyone solved it?    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Aug 2000 01:10:53 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: UCX$ACCESS_SHRn( Message-ID: <3993367d@news.kapsch.co.at>   <RANT>I After upgrading from UCX to TCPIP, I found some utilities do not work anyt longer, because of a missing   	SYS$SHARE:UCX$ACCESS_SHR.EXEu  D Doing a DEFINE/SYS/EXE UCX$ACCESS_SHR SYS$SHARE:TCPIP$ACCESS_SHR.EXE  gets the programs working again.  B Why is this logical not already defined in the TCPIP$STARTUP.COM ?N Or why is there no SYS$SHARE:UCX$ACCESS_SHR.EXE (copy of TCPIP$ACCESS_SHR.EXE)I 	just like UCX$LPD_SMB.EXE, UCX$TELNETSYM.EXE (to not chg que defs) are ? $ I'd prefer 1, but 2 would also work.  N Without this, users get trapped (not for long, but why frustrate them again ?) </RANT>U   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888t< FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:11:22 GMTa, From: Will Jennings <XDS_Sigma7@hotmail.com> Subject: VMS 2.0, anyone? ( Message-ID: <8mur85$21$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   Hi,aG I have a sort of odd question.. Does anyone know what color the binderssG are for the V2.0 manuals? I have a bunch of them and I want to put themrC in binders... or if anyone had an empty set of the binders.. I alsod1 could use a list of what docs are in the 2.0 set.    Will J    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.o   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:28:19 GMT& From: ksrobin@erenj.com (Ken Robinson) Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?u1 Message-ID: <8F8C996F2ksrobinerenjcom@159.70.1.1>-  7 XDS_Sigma7@hotmail.com (Will Jennings) wrote (in part):,   >Hi,H >I have a sort of odd question.. Does anyone know what color the bindersH >are for the V2.0 manuals? I have a bunch of them and I want to put themD >in binders... or if anyone had an empty set of the binders.. I also2 >could use a list of what docs are in the 2.0 set.  G I believe they were blue... If I remember correctly ... it's only been xG about 18 years or so since I worked with VMS V2.0 ( VAX 11/780, 1 RP06 u disk, 1.5 Mb memory)     Ken Robinson ksrobin@erenj.com-   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:36:31 GMT / From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>- Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?6) Message-ID: <3992CBFF.74F302B9@uiowa.edu>t  J > >I have a sort of odd question.. Does anyone know what color the bindersJ > >are for the V2.0 manuals? I have a bunch of them and I want to put themF > >in binders... or if anyone had an empty set of the binders.. I also4 > >could use a list of what docs are in the 2.0 set. > H > I believe they were blue... If I remember correctly ... it's only beenH > about 18 years or so since I worked with VMS V2.0 ( VAX 11/780, 1 RP06 > disk, 1.5 Mb memory)  G VMS v3.x was blue.  I can't say I have seen or worked with VMS prior too v3.  Was v2.x in blue too?   3.x -> blued
 4.x -> orangeo 5.x -> grayo 6.x -> white permabound B 7.x -> multi-colored, but I have never seen any... :) (CD silver?)   rick -- nH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479n   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2000 16:52:53 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)o Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone? * Message-ID: <8mv4n5$b89$1@lisa.gemair.com>  ) In article <3992CBFF.74F302B9@uiowa.edu>,e. Richard L. Dyson <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote: > [snip] > H >VMS v3.x was blue.  I can't say I have seen or worked with VMS prior to >v3.  Was v2.x in blue too?a >w >3.x -> blue >4.x -> orange  E Orange!?  I'll have you know that that was 'Chinese Red', not orange!s  G Actually, if you go to a paint store, the Chinese Red you'll find there-F is similar to, but definitely more of a Red color than theose binders.  4 But, I thought 3.x was ora, uh, 'Chinese Red' too...   My memory is failing though...   >5.x -> gray >6.x -> white permaboundC >7.x -> multi-colored, but I have never seen any... :) (CD silver?)  >s >rick$ >-- I >Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.edu,I > _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/gI >| | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879aI >| | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-1753h7 >| \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy . > \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479   -Jordan Henderson, jordan@greenapple.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:26:37 +0100q. From: mpatt644 <mpatt644@netscapeonline.co.uk> Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?o2 Message-ID: <39931E0C.77E5FD@netscapeonline.co.uk>  2 V2 was dark blue, V3 & 4 were orange, V5 was grey.     Jordan Henderson wrote:l > + > In article <3992CBFF.74F302B9@uiowa.edu>,c0 > Richard L. Dyson <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote:
 > > [snip] > >0J > >VMS v3.x was blue.  I can't say I have seen or worked with VMS prior to > >v3.  Was v2.x in blue too?o > >n > >3.x -> blue > >4.x -> orange > G > Orange!?  I'll have you know that that was 'Chinese Red', not orange!o > I > Actually, if you go to a paint store, the Chinese Red you'll find thereDH > is similar to, but definitely more of a Red color than theose binders. > 6 > But, I thought 3.x was ora, uh, 'Chinese Red' too... >   > My memory is failing though... >  > >5.x -> gray > >6.x -> white permaboundE > >7.x -> multi-colored, but I have never seen any... :) (CD silver?)n > >y > >rickl > >--aK > >Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduiK > > _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/eK > >| | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879 K > >| | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-175329 > >| \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomyi0 > > \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479 >  > -Jordan Hendersonc > jordan@greenapple.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:03:26 -0700 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comc Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?yC Message-ID: <OF4B2559A1.017C3515-ON88256937.007909D6@HEALTHNET.COM>e  I Didn't they slightly change the colour slightly after finding the chinesenF red dye made the plastic brittle over time? I thought that (and normal- fading) was how they ended up looking orange.    Shanee          C jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) on 08/10/2000 01:52:53 PM    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como cc:p   Subject:  Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?    ) In article <3992CBFF.74F302B9@uiowa.edu>,o. Richard L. Dyson <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote: > [snip] > H >VMS v3.x was blue.  I can't say I have seen or worked with VMS prior to >v3.  Was v2.x in blue too?n >d >3.x -> blue >4.x -> orange  E Orange!?  I'll have you know that that was 'Chinese Red', not orange!i  G Actually, if you go to a paint store, the Chinese Red you'll find there F is similar to, but definitely more of a Red color than theose binders.  4 But, I thought 3.x was ora, uh, 'Chinese Red' too...   My memory is failing though...   >5.x -> gray >6.x -> white permaboundC >7.x -> multi-colored, but I have never seen any... :) (CD silver?)h >  >rick  >--rI >Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduiI > _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/rI >| | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879 I >| | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-1753u7 >| \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy(. > \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479   -Jordan Hendersoni jordan@greenapple.comd   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:08:50 GMTn, From: Will Jennings <XDS_Sigma7@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?a) Message-ID: <8mv95e$bgv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>o   Ken,D Oddly enough, I have everything to make that system configuration...C other than that I haven't ever checked out how much memory is in myuD 11/780.. or my 11/750 for that matter <g> Of course, the RP06 is theE property of a different system, but hey, it probably could be reducedvA to 5 drives and the other one be VAXified... Also have a TU77 forPE the '780.. I'd love to run VMS 2.0 on the '780, actually to be honest0F I'd most want to run 1.0 on it. But then lately I've been messing with my Burroughs and my Honeywell..    Will J    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 04:16:42 GMT@2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: VMS 2.0, anyone?X6 Message-ID: <K6Lk5.864$mO3.212877@typhoon.aracnet.com>  . Richard L. Dyson <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> wrote:D > 7.x -> multi-colored, but I have never seen any... :) (CD silver?)  O V7.2 is Very boring.  The Spine is white, with I want to say purple lettering. rL Unlike the 6.x manuals I've got there is no way to tell that the manual is aL User, a Programmer, a Admin, or a General manual.  Plus the pic on the coverD is stupid.  Worse, one of my manuals has the cover on upside down!    G Still it's the quality of the contents that matters, and they were welloL worth the money they cost me.  I'd rather buy the books than a Documentation CD.3   			ZaneB   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:32:51 -0400I' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8muvtt$a0b$1@pyrite.mv.net>  1 Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com> wrote in messagen% news:3992BECE.A36BBE7A@idirect.com...t   ...d  I > I think that you also need to distinguish between a small company which-F > may not have the resources to support many product lines and a large@ > company like DEC was which was already supporting many product@ > lines, but was adept at suppressing both internal and external competition.  L Funny, though:  right through the 1970s, when DEC was a much smaller (thoughE certainly not small in an absolute sense) company, it thrived on bothr" internal and external competition.   >SG > > DEC was horrible at this.  I knew someone who worked with a manager D > > in the DEC group that were making the multi-processor 486 ServerH > > boxes that ran SCO Unix (remember those?).  This guy complained thatG > > he had to endure no less than 12 separate internal reviews over the C > > product because of the fears that the machine was a VAX killer.T >PF > That is the likely the same sort of thinking that prevented DEC from6 > introducing a PC type of system based on the PDP-11.  F It was certainly part of it, though Ken Olsen's late-'70s view that noF average consumer would want a computer in their home also contributed.  E Just goes to show that if you refuse to undercut yourself at least as + quickly as others do, you lose that market.E     All of the4 > hardware and software was available prior to 1980.  F Perhaps, but not at PC-competitive prices (even the Heathkit 11 wasn'tH cheap).  My vague recollection is that there may have been a single-chipG PDP-11 (T[iny]-11?) before the F-11 appeared (in 1982? - I really can'tmK remember), but not one that performed all that well (it might not even havee> had mapped memory).  And the J-11 (1983?  1984?) wasn't cheap.  F And a *lot* of development went into RSX-11M-Plus and its ProfessionalH derivative to make it PC-OS-friendly in the 1982 -1985 period (though ofE course MS-DOS wasn't exactly polished when it first appeared either).i     The PDP-11F > was so far ahead of the Intel 8086 hardware by 1980 that there wouldD > have been no competition for at least 5 years - maybe even 9 years > until the 486.  L More to the point, not until the software started really taking advantage ofK the 32-bit hardware, which arguably didn't occur until Windows NT and Win95sI (though the very first steps were taken in late 1987 with Windows/386 and A continued more significantly in Win 3.0 - 1990 - and 3.1 - 1992).    >iB > > Then, they killed the 10s and 20s because there was no room in, > > the product line for those and the VAXs. >oH > Actually, that part I could understand IF it meant starting up a whole? > new product.  But for the PDP-11, DEC was already making them B > and just needed to make to decision to target the correct market > and price them correctly.   J 100% correct - except that by not doing so *before* the IBM-PC establishedE dominance, DEC would have had to work harder at it to have succeeded.   L And it did at least make a significant effort, at first.  My recollection isK that it reportedly put a total of around $0.5 billion (not an insignificantuH chunk of cash even today) into PC-related development in the 1982 - 1985K time frame, much (perhaps the majority) of it aimed at PDP-11 products likepB the Professional desktop and very-low-end RSX (and RSTS?) systems.   > J > > A company that's not afraid of competition isn't afraid of it whereverH > > it comes from.  They know that competition is really the only way toI > > keep yourself sharp.  Fostering competition is the act of a confidentw > > competitor.c > C > >From what I understand, DEC purposely focused on VMS and the VAX C > hardware during the 1980s to the exclusion of the PDP-11 hardwaresI > and software even though that part of the business was still very largerG > and could have continued to produce even larger profits if allowed to A > continue with hardware development beyond the J-11 chip for the  > PDP-11 systems.a  G The J-11 was cost-effective at introduction, but began to look somewhattH pricy over time.  Other than cost-reductions, I'm not sure how much moreG hardware development would have been helpful:  the 4 MBytes of physicaltB memory the J-11 supported was enough to compete on the desktop andD small-server market well into the '90s - all it needed was the right software on top of it.  1   Indeed, today there are a number of third partyg> > hardware (Mentec/QED/Osprey) and software (E11 emulator from? > Dbit and others) improvements to the PDP-11 series of systemsfB > that would certainly have been welcome 10 years earlier from DECD > themselves.  Instead of spinning off the hardware and software for > the PDP-11 back in 1980   H As I mentioned above, significant PDP-11 software development - at DEC -K continued through the mid-'80s, though it did start a *relative* decline in  the early '80s.a  '  and letting the VAX and PDP-11 competeh@ > head to head so as to force both to become even better - sinceC > at some level, probably the PDP-11 was still able to compete withe > the early VMS and VAXen   I DEC did not start to decrease its PDP-11 development until VMS was prettymK much the PDP-11's equal (I'd guess somewhere around VMS V2.x) in most areas-E save price.  But price was what threw away the lower-end markets thatiG demanded a continually-evolving platform rather than one in end-of-life H mode - and the 11 systems had more than enough Moxie to handle most jobsK there (considerably better than any Microsoft OS prior to WinNT and Win95).s  *  - I understand that DEC took the decisionA > to kill the PDP-11.  It would be interesting to hear the insidet? > story from ex-DEC employees who saw what happened.  If MentecFH > is still able to sell the PDP-11 hardware and software at a profit andA > others have been able to develop and sell other PDP-11 hardwarebF > and software products all along, just think what DEC might have doneE > if the PDP-11 product line had been made independent and given freee2 > reign to continue to compete with VMS and VAXen.  G That was the key point.  When DEC gave up PC-oriented PDP-11 efforts indI 1985-6 (and to a large degree most other PDP-11 development as well), itsgF offered rationale was that cost-competitive VAX replacements were justD around the corner - when it was pretty obvious at the time that theyJ wouldn't appear for at least several (my guess at the time was 5, but thatF turned out to be optimistic) years even if PDP-11 products stopped all4 price/performance improvements to let them catch up.  I DEC bet all its marbles on VMS, and then proceeded to price it (and enterdI into internecine squabbling between VMS and Ultrix) such that it couldn'tSC possibly take over the world - just (at best) the high end (and the I VMS/Ultrix wars took care of that).  Doing better in *any* of those areaslH would likely have saved the company - and they were *all* obvious at the! time to anyone with an open mind.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:27:05 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <39931008.46267CA5@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:K > Given the amount of server consolidation that has taken place since then, M > one might also state that by remaining constant, it is actually an increasea > in overall licenses.  I You are assuming here that Digipaq actually do something to their licenseJN databases when a customer turns off a VAX, or when a customer buys a new alpha" and turns off 2 vaxes it replaces.  J Unless the customer gets a deal to CONVERT/CONSOLIDATE licenses into fewerM bigger ones, then Digipaq only sees the addition of new licenses when the new J Alphas are sold and doesn't see any mention that the licenses of the older machines have been zapped.    J Digipaq *may* see a request to transfer the VMS license with the older VAX, when the later is sold to another customer.   G The license database  is essentially a compendium of former and current2L customers, and could be of great value to Compaq should it wish to price VMSL competitively and then try to re-activate/bring back former customers. But I= do not beleive that it reflects in any way current customers.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:05:18 GMT.- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>.  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <39930AFA.1521B5C5@ohio.edu>   Jerome Fine wrote:   > >Jordan Henderson wrote: >e1 > > In article <3990E37D.D86AA429@tsoft-inc.com>,V0 > > David A Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:R > > >When a company will not let it's products compete with each other, some otherU > > >vendor WILL compete with the favored product, and if it cannot hold it's own, itRT > > >will be beaten.  I'd rather beat myself than let someone else do it.  Wonder if5 > > >Compaq has figured this out yet?  DEC never did.sJ > > This is, I think, a key point.  The thinking that internal competitionI > > is bad and needs to be supressed is the thinking of a monopolist.  If B > > only they could supress external competition through political > > manuevering they would!e >o > [snip]   >sG > > DEC was horrible at this.  I knew someone who worked with a manager7D > > in the DEC group that were making the multi-processor 486 ServerH > > boxes that ran SCO Unix (remember those?).  This guy complained thatG > > he had to endure no less than 12 separate internal reviews over the>C > > product because of the fears that the machine was a VAX killer.  >nF > That is the likely the same sort of thinking that prevented DEC fromB > introducing a PC type of system based on the PDP-11.  All of the@ > hardware and software was available prior to 1980.  The PDP-11F > was so far ahead of the Intel 8086 hardware by 1980 that there wouldD > have been no competition for at least 5 years - maybe even 9 years > until the 486.   [snip]  V And they came very close to doing it!  My former employer once upon a time (perhaps 20U years ago) bought a Heathkit H-11:  a PDP-11/03.  It had serial and parallel ports, 8 V KBytes of RAM, and several open Q-Bus slots.  It came with paper-tape operating systemN (I borrowed a Teletype ASR-33 from the biologists' scintillation counter) that included BASIC and FOCAL.n  S After going through a long song-and-dance, I persuaded Digital to sell me RT-11 andrN FORTRAN without support.  The FORTAN compiler as shipped would not compile theU one-page test program that was in the documentation.  I had to manually apply a dozentP or so patches!   (But, I must say that they did include the instructions for the patches in the paperwork.)  S We ended up buying third-party RAM (a single card with the maximum 64 KBytes) and a-Q third-party disk subsystem with DMA controller (high-density 8-inch floppies, NOTRV compatible with Digital's of that era).  That system served, among other things, as myL personal computer through the era of the Apple II, the IBM PC, and the early
 Macintosh.  #                                 RDP5   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:15:06 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>D  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <39931B45.7AD37E6A@videotron.ca>   Michiel Erens wrote:H > I believe the link was dropped here before, but this article describes' > the similarities between VMS and NT :r > ; > http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4494   I Interesting article. But you know, a lot of the functionalities which arexM deemed to be the same bwteen NT and VMS are not exclusive to these two. GuesshM what, my PSION PDA dating back from before NT also has 32 process priorities,sN and it also never lowers a process' priority below that it was created, but itI gets raised when needed. Just like VMS.  It also has event flags etc etc..  M So while it is easy to draw a conclusion that the ressemblance between NT andmN VMS is due to NT having been written by ex-DECies, it doesn't mean that had NTN been written by others, it would not have had many of the similarities because& those are pretty basic to modern OSes.  M Also, note that in 1981, Cutler was sent to Seattle for his pet Mica project. L Yet, many of the similarities discussed in the article date from after 1981.  N Also, if you're going to write an OS from scratch, you're probably going to beL looking at what other OSes are around and try to pick the best from each, soL it is only natural that Microsoft stole from VMS as much as possible, in theN same way that Intel stole from Alpha as much as possible. What in unacceptableO is that both got away scotts free without any serious punishement from Digital.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:33:22 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <39931F8C.A44B3A3D@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:G > Just goes to show that if you refuse to undercut yourself at least as/- > quickly as others do, you lose that market..  J I never expected to see such a line coming from you. But I violently agreeI with you on this. And this needs to be applied to the VMS products  ASAP.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:40:30 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>   Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mvatk$km8$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:39931F8C.A44B3A3D@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:I > > Just goes to show that if you refuse to undercut yourself at least asa/ > > quickly as others do, you lose that market.g >oL > I never expected to see such a line coming from you. But I violently agreeK > with you on this. And this needs to be applied to the VMS products  ASAP.   K The difference is that what you're advocating is not trying to avoid losing H a market you currently dominate (as DEC did at the time under discussionL above), but trying to recapture a market VMS lost long ago (and that now hasK a lot of free or near-free competition on significantly lower-cost hardwareeI than VMS can run on - leaving aside the point that Compaq already sells a-I lot of this competition and has no obvious motive to take heroic steps to- pit VMS against it).  I *That* is a whole different ball game, and one that VMS couldn't possiblyjK win (even if Compaq wanted it to) without first at least starting to regain,I momentum, dominance, and mind-share in the higher-level markets it hasn'teI completely lost yet (though these markets aren't nearly as limited as theo; Compaq 'strategic sector' approach might have one believe).r  K Market strategy needs to take into account current reality, and the realityeK in the mid-'80s was radically different.  Your strategy would have been the L right one then (and was one I advocated then - though with the PDP-11, sinceH the VMS hardware was still 'way too expensive to compete in the real lowG end); today, it likely would range from ineffective to suicidal; if VMSyC turns around dramatically (which, given the current level of Compaq4I commitment, I do not expect to happen), it could once again become a goodS	 strategy.e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:50:57 -0400d' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8mvbm7$lc5$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:39931B45.7AD37E6A@videotron.ca... > Michiel Erens wrote:J > > I believe the link was dropped here before, but this article describes) > > the similarities between VMS and NT :y > >a= > > http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4494  > K > Interesting article. But you know, a lot of the functionalities which aredI > deemed to be the same bwteen NT and VMS are not exclusive to these two.- Guess-C > what, my PSION PDA dating back from before NT also has 32 processd priorities,oI > and it also never lowers a process' priority below that it was created,i but itK > gets raised when needed. Just like VMS.  It also has event flags etc etc.E >iK > So while it is easy to draw a conclusion that the ressemblance between NT  andlI > VMS is due to NT having been written by ex-DECies, it doesn't mean thats had NTH > been written by others, it would not have had many of the similarities becauset( > those are pretty basic to modern OSes.  J No.  But what it almost certainly means is that it would have been writtenE by people writing those features for the first time, using relativelyoL superficial descriptions of how they worked (they *could* have looked at theL source code or even Ruth Goldenberg and Larry Kenah's book, but I'm not sure@ even that level of research is what I'd expect of Microsofties).  D The difference between that and having a bunch of really experiencedJ engineers recreate a complex OS - albeit with major extensions - that theyI have written once before (for some of them, including Cutler, arguably at K least twice before, when you include RSX and VAXeln) is not just measurable K quantitatively, it's a major qualitative difference, even ignoring whatever G additional DEC-proprietary Mica intellectual property found its way in.r  J Sorry, JF:  you just don't know what you're talking about here, and really& should stop arguing with those who do.   - bill   > F > Also, note that in 1981, Cutler was sent to Seattle for his pet Mica project.H > Yet, many of the similarities discussed in the article date from after 1981.  >aJ > Also, if you're going to write an OS from scratch, you're probably going to be]K > looking at what other OSes are around and try to pick the best from each,t soJ > it is only natural that Microsoft stole from VMS as much as possible, in thetC > same way that Intel stole from Alpha as much as possible. What inn unacceptableH > is that both got away scotts free without any serious punishement from Digital.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:16:44 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS, Message-ID: <39937014.E73AF5B1@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:F > The difference between that and having a bunch of really experiencedL > engineers recreate a complex OS - albeit with major extensions - that theyK > have written once before (for some of them, including Cutler, arguably atsM > least twice before, when you include RSX and VAXeln) is not just measurable  > quantitatively,d  F I see a big difference between hiring experienced employees and hiring= employees with the goal of recreating someone else'e product.o  K In the case of NT, I see it just as Microsoft hiring some experienced folkseM and asking them to write an OS.  Yeah, NT shares similar kernel features with , VMS, but so do other OSs, even PDA systems.   N The article that had been posted clearly stated that Cutler left the VMS groupK in 1981 for his pet MICA/PRISM project. So any knowledge Cutler had of thew J new features added to VMS after 1981 would have been gained not because he* wrote it, but because he learned about it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:51:20 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8n045g$do1$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:39937014.E73AF5B1@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:H > > The difference between that and having a bunch of really experiencedI > > engineers recreate a complex OS - albeit with major extensions - that  theyJ > > have written once before (for some of them, including Cutler, arguably atD > > least twice before, when you include RSX and VAXeln) is not just
 measurable > > quantitatively,  > H > I see a big difference between hiring experienced employees and hiring? > employees with the goal of recreating someone else'e product.r > G > In the case of NT, I see it just as Microsoft hiring some experienced- folks J > and asking them to write an OS.  Yeah, NT shares similar kernel features with- > VMS, but so do other OSs, even PDA systems.  >nJ > The article that had been posted clearly stated that Cutler left the VMS grouphH > in 1981 for his pet MICA/PRISM project. So any knowledge Cutler had of thewL > new features added to VMS after 1981 would have been gained not because he, > wrote it, but because he learned about it.  J Like - duh - maybe in the process of designing the kernel meant to replace it upward-compatibly?a   JF, you really haven't a clue.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:59:06 -0400 7 From: "Jeff Donsbach" <jeff.donsbach@nospam.compaq.com>g; Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233? , Message-ID: <8muu6m$5job$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  H The Alpha XL series were "NT Only". There is no SRM console firmware forF them, so they can not run Tru64 Unix or OpenVMS. You can, however, runL Alpha/Linux by using ARC (or AlphaBios on the XL 3xx machines) to boot MILO.: Look for details on "how to" at http://www.alphalinux.org/  
 Jeff Donsbacht Compaq Computer Corp Partner Engineeringo  7 Fim Wstberg <fim.wastberg@fimator.se> wrote in messagee$ news:398BE301.5F58161F@fimator.se...H > I have an Alpha workstation XL266 with this "half flashed" system with just ARCJ > loaded and I can run just Win Nt. Now I want to run VMS and I have tried
 to switch theiF > console program from ARC to SRM by loading the flash memory from the ARC-console./ > But I was not successful. Here are the steps:  >pI > A FAT-diskette with the program fwupdate.exe, that is SRM firmware file & AS200_V7_0.EXE renamed, in the floppy.0 > In the ARC-console menu: "Supplementary menu"," > and then "Install new firmware".G > The answer is "Searching for the update tool on CD-rom and floppy..."tE > The led on the floppy is flashing and after some seconds there is ab message:? > "Error: No such file or directory, press any key to continue"  >t% > Is anybody knowing what is wrong ??d >n >t >d > Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: >uC > > In article <vGAi5.843$pS6.10099@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, < "Jonathan McCormack" <McCormackJ@BelfastCity.Gov.UK> writes:F > > >After the great Compaq "stab NT Alpha in the back" debacle it was
 decided to( > > >decommission our only NT Alpha Box. > > >tG > > >I've decided to get my hands on it before anyone else does, so thep basic  > > >questions are.g > > > " > > >1) Can I stick OpenVMS on it? > >eK > > Of course. Good choice anyway. btw: go directly to OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1r< > > if you can get the media (eg. copying it from a friend). > >nF > > You didn't tell us what options you have in your AlphaServer so weH > > can't tell you if they run with OpenVMS. You also need to switch theH > > console program from ARC to SRM (maybe you also need to fill the SRM intoC > > the flash memory first - if it's only a "half flashed" system).p > > 1 > > >2) How to I get a hobbyist license if I can?w > >n( > > Become a DECUS member and then go to > >-- > >         http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/0 > >r) > > >3) Is there a Alpha Linux out there?r > >j > > Yes. > > K > > All of this questions have been asked here before umpteen times, so yourJ > > better check the VMS FAQ (in the VMS wizard zone) and a USENET archive2 > > (DEJA.COM, REMARQ.COM, ...) before continuing. > >,2 > >         http://www.openvms.digital.com/wizard/ > >o > > --@ > > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651? > > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888s@ > > FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANL > > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"F > > "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998p >. > --% > Med vnliga hlsningar/Best regards  > FIMATOR AB > Fim Wstberg CPIM G > ---------------------------------------------------------------------e > Box 63 > 177 22  JRFLLA > SWEDEN/ > Tel   : 08 580 277 00 Abroad +46 8 580 277 00 G > Fax   : 08 584 116 90        +46 8 584 116 90 <=== NEW per 1-Feb-2000v. > Mobil : 070 810 73 91        +46 7 810 73 91! > e-mail: fim.wastberg@fimator.sec >e >c   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:21:14 GMT:& From: wspencer@ap.org (Warren Spencer); Subject: Re: What Can I Do With An AlphaServer 1000A 4/233?-/ Message-ID: <sp605a8jn4t148@news.supernews.com>r  I I'll dust one off:  This one was told by our Systems Analysis teacher in f  Canadore College 20 years ago...  H A company housed its computers in an all-glass room bordering a hallway K with an outside window.  Every 2nd Thursday, they loaded their 9-track mag eG tape drives up and ran the payroll at 3:00 pm.  During the summer, the  L payroll would crash occassionally with an End Of Tape error halfway through H the run - but never during the winter.  This went on for years - no one J could figure out why. Bad tape drive?  Humidity?  Temperature?  The price  of tea in China?  I Someone finally put it together when the city closed the nearby road for hK much-needed maintenance work.  Seems the drawbridge over river adjacent to r? this company's building, when lifted for the 3:00 ferry, would tK occassionally reflect sunlight at just the right angle through the window, rK across the hallway, and into the computer room, where it would trigger the eK optical End-Of-Tape sensor in the tape drive.  During the winter, when the t) river was frozen, this would never occur.    ws   -- iJ << My employer does not necessarily agree with my opinions - neither do I  >>   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.446 ************************prior to 1980.  The PDP-11F > was so far ahead of the Intel 8086 hardware by 1980 that there wouldD > have been no competition for at least 5 years - maybe even 9 years > until the 486.   [snip]  V And they came very close to doing it!  My former employer once upon a time (perhaps 20U years ago) bought a Heathkit H-11:  a PDP-11/03.  It had serial and parallel ports, 8 V 