1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 13 Aug 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 450       Contents:" Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP& Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP& Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP& Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP& Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP
 Bill vs. Carl & Commitment to DII COE, missing pieces?) Re: decc$from_vms and potential filenames  Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise KA650 boot problem# Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment # Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment & Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise& Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwise) Re: shareable image library (too big ???)  Re: Simple RT-11/TSX question  Re: Simple RT-11/TSX question 1 SLEEPING BURNS FAT!!  LOSE MORE WEIGHT!! (131238)  Re: VMS hobbyist version Re: VMS hobbyist version Re: VMS Vs any other OS $ Re: VMS vs unix (the true contender)$ Re: VMS vs unix (the true contender)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 2000 12:17:57 PDT* From: abuse@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie)+ Subject: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP ! Message-ID: <xxrPLcZaZozv@flying>   ; I have never installed or configured TCP/IP for VMS before, 2 so I am a bit lost.   I need a tutorial for simple starting configurations.  : I have installed VMS 7.2-1 and TCP/IP v5.0A on my hobbyist; AlphaStation 200.   It is a totally stand-alone system, not < networked to anything (yet).   It has an Ethernet interface,; but it is not connected to anything.   I want to configure  ; TCP/IP to use TTA0: as a PPP link, in the same manner that  : my PC currently is.   That is, I want to run Netscape just= as if I were doing it on my PC (but without all the crashes).   4 I am trying to follow the instructions in the TCP/IP< Installation and Configuration manual, and the configuration7 command procedure TCPIP$CONFIG.   However, I am getting * stuck on even the most basic questions.     7 For instance, from the Configuration Planning Worksheet  (Table 1-2, page 1-6):  " 1) That is the system's host name?  3    OK, I guess I can pick just about any name here.   - 2) What is the system's Internet domain name?   3    Should this be my ISP's domain name?   My ISP is 4    (now) Earthlink.com, but my PC is still set up as2    username@ix.Netcom.com (which was bought out by    Earthlink).  - 3) What are the system's addresses and masks?   3    What should I enter here?   They are dynamically 1    assigned by my ISP when I log in, aren't they? 5    Should I just pick a random address in their range .    (I doubt it)?   Zeros?   Blank?   All ones?  3    The same questions apply for the Subnet Mask and     Broadcase Address.   6 4) I assume that I should answer "NO" to the questions3    about nonpriv Read access to TCPIP$Proxy.DAt and     using SNMP.   Correct?    5) Type of routing.   4    Static or Dynamic?   If Dynamic, ROUTED or GATED?  7 6) Enable the BIND resolver?   Name of the BIND server? 0    IP address of the BIND server?   Domain name?  8 I tried running TCPIP$CONFIG, but got even more confused9 when it asked about gateways, etc.   In a case like this, 9 is my system the gateway, or is my ISP?   In either case,  I don't know the IP address.  5 Can anyone point me at the information that will help 3 me give the right answere to TCPIP$CONFIG that will $ let me use PPP to connect to my ISP?   --  B --  Alan E. Frisbie             Frisbie "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com@ --  Flying Disk Systems, Inc.   Abuse "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:59:02 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> / Subject: Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP - Message-ID: <3995BA96.905FEEE2@earthlink.net>    Alan Frisbie wrote:  > = > I have never installed or configured TCP/IP for VMS before, 4 > so I am a bit lost.   I need a tutorial for simple > starting configurations. > < > I have installed VMS 7.2-1 and TCP/IP v5.0A on my hobbyist= > AlphaStation 200.   It is a totally stand-alone system, not > > networked to anything (yet).   It has an Ethernet interface,< > but it is not connected to anything.   I want to configure< > TCP/IP to use TTA0: as a PPP link, in the same manner that > my PC currently is.   F What I typically recommend (and again, this MY opinion, not gospel) isF that you'd do much better to use a device such as 3com's 56K LANmodem.G It's what I use here at home where I have four networked computers (the E LANmodem has a four-port 10BaseT hub built-in). The LANmodem does the G dial-out PPP schtick(sp?) on behalf of OpenVMS, Linux, FreeBSD, W/9x or 3 whatever is running TCP/IP on your home-office LAN.   ' >  That is, I want to run Netscape just ? > as if I were doing it on my PC (but without all the crashes).   H Well, unless you've used Netscape on Linux on a 486 circa. 80 MHz or so,D you may find it disappointing. It *IS* more stable (IMO), but ratherH slow compared to running under W/9x on a 300+ MHz Pentium class machine.   6 > I am trying to follow the instructions in the TCP/IP> > Installation and Configuration manual, and the configuration9 > command procedure TCPIP$CONFIG.   However, I am getting ) > stuck on even the most basic questions.  > 9 > For instance, from the Configuration Planning Worksheet  > (Table 1-2, page 1-6):  A Let's proceed as if you were building a home-office LAN using the   LANmodem or something similar...   & > 1) (W)hat is the system's host name? > 5 >    OK, I guess I can pick just about any name here.   C Yes - only try use a non-existant domain name in the next question.    / > 2) What is the system's Internet domain name?  > 5 >    Should this be my ISP's domain name?   My ISP is 6 >    (now) Earthlink.com, but my PC is still set up as4 >    username@ix.Netcom.com (which was bought out by >    Earthlink).  D Use anything you like, really. "alan-frisbie.com" would probably do.  @ "djesys.com" is actually served by Mark's name servers. When I'mG offline, however, the LANmodem knows that C333.djesys.com is my Celeron A 366 W/95 machine, djas01.djesys.com is my AlphaStation 200 4/233, A djmv01.djesys.com is the MicroVAX 3100-30, pb486.djesys.com is my G (current) Linux machine, ... BUT, I can still access www.djesys.com and F the LANmodem knows that it must ask someone else to resolve that name.   / > 3) What are the system's addresses and masks?  > 5 >    What should I enter here?   They are dynamically 3 >    assigned by my ISP when I log in, aren't they? 7 >    Should I just pick a random address in their range 0 >    (I doubt it)?   Zeros?   Blank?   All ones? > 5 >    The same questions apply for the Subnet Mask and  >    Broadcast Address.   = In the case of using the LANmodem, you'd probably want to use C 192.168.1.2, since the LANmodem's default address would probably be @ 192.168.1.1. The subnet mask you'd probably want to use would beC 255.255.255.0, though you have some flexibility here. The broadcast G address using that mask would be 192.168.1.255. Note that the broadcast H address is directly related to the subnet mask. The software should have+ been smart enough to figure it out for you.    8 > 4) I assume that I should answer "NO" to the questions5 >    about nonpriv Read access to TCPIP$Proxy.DAt and  >    using SNMP.   Correct?   F I suppose, but you can probably change either one later, especially if! you want to experiment with SNMP.     > 5) Type of routing.  > 6 >    Static or Dynamic?   If Dynamic, ROUTED or GATED?  C Static, I should think. Though, you'll want the LANmodem to be your  router (default gateway).     > 6) Enable the BIND resolver?     Yes.   >  Name of the BIND server?   3 The name of the LANmodem, usually 3com.oc.lanmodem.   # >    IP address of the BIND server?   = Probably 192.168.1.1 if you don't change it from the default.    >   Domain name?  E Of the LANmodem? oc.lanmodem, I guess. Otherwise, use the same domain H name you specified earlier. That way, when you ask for access to anotherG computer on your LAN, say "my486", for example, you can reference it as , "my486" instead of "my486.alan-frisbie.com".   : > I tried running TCPIP$CONFIG, but got even more confused; > when it asked about gateways, etc.   In a case like this, ; > is my system the gateway, or is my ISP?   In either case,  > I don't know the IP address.  E In the case of the LANmodem, you'd want it to be your default gateway H (router). So the address would be 192.168.1.1 unless you changed it from the default.  7 > Can anyone point me at the information that will help 5 > me give the right answere to TCPIP$CONFIG that will & > let me use PPP to connect to my ISP?  ) Don't know if any of this helps. Hope so.   C There may be a usable dialer for OpenVMS somewhere out there in the G freeware world. Perhaps someone who knows will chime in with a pointer. ' Otherwise, I'd recommend this approach.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 2000 17:55:35 PDT* From: abuse@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie)/ Subject: Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP ! Message-ID: <vsrsJ8+ApKRf@flying>   . In article <3995BA96.905FEEE2@earthlink.net>, 9 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:    > Alan Frisbie wrote:  >>  > >> I have never installed or configured TCP/IP for VMS before,5 >> so I am a bit lost.   I need a tutorial for simple  >> starting configurations.  >>  = >> I have installed VMS 7.2-1 and TCP/IP v5.0A on my hobbyist > >> AlphaStation 200.   It is a totally stand-alone system, not? >> networked to anything (yet).   It has an Ethernet interface, = >> but it is not connected to anything.   I want to configure = >> TCP/IP to use TTA0: as a PPP link, in the same manner that  >> my PC currently is.   > H > What I typically recommend (and again, this MY opinion, not gospel) isH > that you'd do much better to use a device such as 3com's 56K LANmodem.  ? Thank you very much for the LANmodem configuration information. * I am sure it will be useful in the future.  8 What I really need now, however, is how to to answer the9 TCPIP$CONFIG questions for PPP on TTA0: for a stand-alone  system.    Thanks,  Alan   --  B --  Alan E. Frisbie             Frisbie "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com@ --  Flying Disk Systems, Inc.   Abuse "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 21:41:52 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> / Subject: Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP - Message-ID: <39960AF0.27569E57@earthlink.net>    Alan Frisbie wrote:  > / > In article <3995BA96.905FEEE2@earthlink.net>, ; > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:  >  > > Alan Frisbie wrote:  > >>@ > >> I have never installed or configured TCP/IP for VMS before,7 > >> so I am a bit lost.   I need a tutorial for simple  > >> starting configurations.  > >>? > >> I have installed VMS 7.2-1 and TCP/IP v5.0A on my hobbyist @ > >> AlphaStation 200.   It is a totally stand-alone system, notA > >> networked to anything (yet).   It has an Ethernet interface, ? > >> but it is not connected to anything.   I want to configure ? > >> TCP/IP to use TTA0: as a PPP link, in the same manner that  > >> my PC currently is. > > J > > What I typically recommend (and again, this MY opinion, not gospel) isJ > > that you'd do much better to use a device such as 3com's 56K LANmodem. > A > Thank you very much for the LANmodem configuration information. , > I am sure it will be useful in the future. > : > What I really need now, however, is how to to answer the; > TCPIP$CONFIG questions for PPP on TTA0: for a stand-alone 	 > system.   > Well, none of the current TCP/IP stacks for OpenVMS has, to myH (admittedly incomplete) knowledge, the functionality you're looking for.G There's no DUN (Dial Up Networking), no DHCP client - though there is a H server in some cases, and no PPP client though again, I believe there is a server (PPPD).  E The current TCP/IP stacks are intended for datacenters and LANs where ; the addresses are pre-assigned and the connection constant.   B So as far as I know, what you're asking is not currently possible.  C ...AFAIK. I could be wrong, as always. That's why I recommended the D alternative. I have some vague recollection of something for CMU/IP.H Perhaps someone else will chime in with the specifics - or a correction.  G Remember also that the highest reliable terminal port speed for OpenVMS G is considerably less than 56K, and I seem to remember a discussion from G some time back where in someone remarked that the OpenVMS terminal port ? drivers do not fully support the level of hardware flow control 4 (CTS/RTS) upon which dial-up PPP connections depend.  ) ...again, to the best of my recollection.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:50:45 -0500 ) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> / Subject: Re: Basic TCP/IP configuration for PPP / Message-ID: <spca6tqdn4t180@corp.supernews.com>   7 "Alan Frisbie" <abuse@flying-disk.com> wrote in message  news:xxrPLcZaZozv@flying... = > I have never installed or configured TCP/IP for VMS before, 4 > so I am a bit lost.   I need a tutorial for simple > starting configurations. > < > I have installed VMS 7.2-1 and TCP/IP v5.0A on my hobbyist= > AlphaStation 200.   It is a totally stand-alone system, not > > networked to anything (yet).   It has an Ethernet interface,< > but it is not connected to anything.   I want to configure< > TCP/IP to use TTA0: as a PPP link, in the same manner that< > my PC currently is.   That is, I want to run Netscape just? > as if I were doing it on my PC (but without all the crashes).  > 6 > I am trying to follow the instructions in the TCP/IP> > Installation and Configuration manual, and the configuration9 > command procedure TCPIP$CONFIG.   However, I am getting ) > stuck on even the most basic questions.  > 9 > For instance, from the Configuration Planning Worksheet  > (Table 1-2, page 1-6): > $ > 1) That is the system's host name? > 5 >    OK, I guess I can pick just about any name here.   L Correct.  Unless you are feeding the hostname back using a local DNS back to3 your ISPs, none of the names that you chose matter.    > / > 2) What is the system's Internet domain name?  > 5 >    Should this be my ISP's domain name?   My ISP is 6 >    (now) Earthlink.com, but my PC is still set up as4 >    username@ix.Netcom.com (which was bought out by >    Earthlink).  C It would be Netcom.com, but again that only matters in a few cases.   C It allows you to specify your security zones by name, assuming that 8 Netcom.com is more secure than the rest of the internet.  K Your browser and newsreader may also give out your domain name with out you 
 realizing it.   K You may want to use a made up unique local top level domain of your own for 7 your local network. "flying.disk" might be appropriate.   / > 3) What are the system's addresses and masks?  > 5 >    What should I enter here?   They are dynamically 3 >    assigned by my ISP when I log in, aren't they? 7 >    Should I just pick a random address in their range 0 >    (I doubt it)?   Zeros?   Blank?   All ones? > 5 >    The same questions apply for the Subnet Mask and  >    Broadcase Address.   I At this point, TCPIP services are not concerned with your serial link, it E wants them for your ethernet.  Since it is not connected, it does not  matter.   K For future planning, use one of the reserved non-routing addresses.  If you : pick a random one, you may conflict with an existing site.  J The easiest reserved range to remember is 10.x.x.x.  That should allow you plenty of expansion room.   I Set your Ethernet port to 10.0.0.1 with a subnet mask of 255.0.0.0.  Your K broadcast mask is usually the reverse of your subnet mask, so 0.255.255.255  would work.   8 > 4) I assume that I should answer "NO" to the questions5 >    about nonpriv Read access to TCPIP$Proxy.DAt and  >    using SNMP.   Correct?   2 I did.  I have not found any need for allowing it.   > 5) Type of routing.V >S6 >    Static or Dynamic?   If Dynamic, ROUTED or GATED?  J It will be static routing.  Dynamic routing is for very large networks, or? people that want to learn about in under controlled conditions.a  9 > 6) Enable the BIND resolver?   Name of the BIND server?.2 >    IP address of the BIND server?   Domain name?  K Yes to enable the BIND resolver.  This becomes a little problematic for youo5 as it is probably dynamically assigned from your ISP.e  > Another name for the BIND server is DNS or Domain Name Server.  L The good news is that it probably does not change very often, so if you lookL up what your PC got set to and use that IP address, then all should be well.  I Your support number from your ISP should also be able to tell you the DNS  address, and possibly the name.a  G You should not need to give a name for the DSN or BIND server, just theu
 addresses.  G In the future when you run a local network, you can set up a local BIND B server that will pass the requests it can not resolve to your ISP.  : > I tried running TCPIP$CONFIG, but got even more confused; > when it asked about gateways, etc.   In a case like this,f; > is my system the gateway, or is my ISP?   In either case,a > I don't know the IP address.  I In the configuration you describe, do not worry about the gateway at this  time.a  7 > Can anyone point me at the information that will helpr5 > me give the right answere to TCPIP$CONFIG that will & > let me use PPP to connect to my ISP?  C I have not done this, but have seen others post about doing this onn comp.os.vms.  K After you get the base TCP/IP running, the instructions for setting up your L PPP client to connect to your ISP are in the documentation.  It will receive7 the I.P. address and the gateway information from them.,  $ Here are some links to help you out.  L http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/6526/6526profile_002.html#index_ x_115   E http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/6526/6526profile_003.htmle  
 Good luck,   -Johne wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Aug 2000 01:04:19 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) Subject: Bill vs. Carl+ Message-ID: <OOv3PZjg3EVl@eisner.decus.org>c  g In article <3994AF29.7CEC882E@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:W > Bill Todd wrote: > [snip] >> m! >> JF, you really haven't a clue.r > J > Just curious, Bill. Does *ANY*one here meet your intellectual standards? > A > ...or are you intentionally trying to fill those infamous shoes?H > long-timers here (not me, obviously) remember so well from years past? >   - 	I knew Carl Lydick... to coin a Reagan term:h   	"Bill ain't no Carl Lydick".e  : 	There is a match and then there is a flame thrower , both* 	put off heat.  But there are differences!   				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 2000 21:48:58 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)/ Subject: Commitment to DII COE, missing pieces?e, Message-ID: <8n4goa$gel@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   At:h  F   http://www.openvms.digital.com/solutions/publicsector/coe/index.html  C there is a Powerpoint presentation and a FAQ concerning the DII COE.H initiative.  After reading through the whole thing either I missed it orI there was no no explicit mention of either soft links or shells (sh, csh,?J tcsh, bash, etc.) being provided under DII COE.  Can somebody who actually knows clarify this situation?   K And if they aren't coming, please explain how DII COE isn't a total sham asaJ a Unix porting environment, since the lack of functioning sh (or bash),csh@ or (tcsh) enviroments within which one can build packages (usingH "configure", most notably), and the lack of soft links required by thoseJ build procedures, are common stumbling blocks when porting the majority ofC Unix derived packages.  The provision of a "make" is going to do us H precious little good if we can't get beyond the pile of (currently) unixJ specific build instructions which create the Makefile, and if we can't runH the esoteric shell specific commands encoded within that Makefile due toJ the lack of a functioning unix compatible shell.  (For instance, good luckI building Interbase without these bits!)  And logically if DII COE really  H does make for such a fine porting environment then tcsh and bash should H build without any major work - so they should be trivial to supply in atI least an unsupported state.  But if two such key Unix applications cannotbJ be built easily using the DII COE bits that tells us something rather uglyB about DII COE.   Conversely, if they do build easily, then the VMS? engineering group can proceed to build (easily) the rest of thesH gnu packages, each of which is required somewhere in some form for some I other package to build properly.  That is, sed, awk, m4, etc. all workingdC in a unixy manner within a unixy shell, and built from the "normal"eK build procedures.  (Which doesn't mean that the resulting applications neednI be run in such a shell, although some may only work properly there due ton+ system() calls and other bad programming.) c  K And if symoblic links aren't coming with DII COE, why the heck not?  On theeK face of it they seem like something RMS should be able to handle trivially.TI Just define a new "FAT$SYMLINK" file type (to go along with FAT$C_SPECIAL H that's already going in)  which is in reality a text file containing theG symbolic link information, absolute or relative to the link file.  Ie: e    $ create example.txte)  $ set file/link=link.txt     example.txts  $ delete example.txt;-  $ set file/link=symbolic.txt [-]textfile.txtS7  $ set file/link=dirlink.dir  PRGDISK:[SHARED.PROGRAMS]o  $ dir/link/date/check PS  DIRLINK.DIR                 13-AUG-2000 16:39:58.22    + PRGDISK:[SHARED.PROGRAMS]hE  LINK.TXT                    13-AUG-2000 16:39:58.00    - example.txtbI  SYMBOLIC.TXT                13-AUG-2000 16:39:58.02    + [-]textfile.txt   F The /check tests the link to see if it's still good and puts up + or -2 as appropriate. /link shows the value of the link.    $ type symbolic.txt  L RMS OPEN attaches to symbolic.txt, sees that it is a symbolic link, extractsL the text from it, applies it (relatively in this case) to the full file specK for symbolic.txt, figures out that it has reached the end of the link chainsJ by the FAT value, then opens the real file and TYPEs it.  Checking the FATI type of the file is something that RMS must do now anyway, and having it  L conditionally jump along one or more symbolic links isn't going to slow any 9 existing code down at all - it's a pure "added" function.u  K As shown above, if no link counter is kept on the target files there can beyK cases of dangling symbolic links - which aren't generally dangerous so long G as the final "open" fails.  The only place I see a real possibility fors trouble is this: .    $ create/dir [.parent]   $ set def [.parent]+  $ set file/link=parent.dir   [-]parent.dir1  $ dir [.parent...]a  J which will go into an infinite loop unless there is code in place to stop J it.  But that's already the case for set file/enter, so hopefully the loop> checking code already exists in DIR and F$SEARCH and the like.  J Compared to the nearly invariant need for sh and/or csh and symbolic linksF in ports to OpenVMS, the long list of C RTL modifications discussed inJ these references, while perhaps valuable in some instances, have only veryI rarely come up when I've ported software.  (I can't recall ever needing aoC link(), but I have seen programs call symlink().)   If I read this  I literature correctly they are all needed for the DII COE kernel itself - hF not necessarily by any other DII COE software.  And it will be nice toI finally have access to a unixlike fork().  (A unixlike ioctl() would havedL been more useful 10 years ago when terminal based programs were common, it's8 much less of a problem now in these web centric times. )   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduL? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech n   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 2000 18:01:05 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)2 Subject: Re: decc$from_vms and potential filenames, Message-ID: <8n43d1$d3u@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <rdeininger-0908002354070001@user-2iveaoi.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:eR >In article <8msq0f$qm6@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu wrote: >m >> t >>   $ set def [.foobar]@ >>   %DCL-I-INVDEF, USRDISK:[USERS.MATHOG.FOOBAR] does not exist >e: >I've never seen this info message.  Is it new in VMS 7.2? >p >H6 >>   $! but it could, there's nothing illegal about it
 >>   $ v2u ""e >>   foo.blat -> no translation < >>   usrdisk:[users.mathog.foobar]foo.blat -> no translation >> cK >> Near as I can tell there's nothing ambiguous about either of these file wI >> specifications, yet decc$from_vms will not translate them, apparently :! >> because they do not yet exist.  >> -) >> Is this behavior a bug or a "feature"?2 > > >Probably a feature, namely consistency with current practice. >RA >For example, the f$parse lexical function has the final argumentlH >"parse_type".  If you omit it, the function verifies that the directoryE >(but not the file) exists.  If you make this argument "syntax_only",> >it omits this check.t  C There is no such switch in decc$from_vms.  There is an option aboutnB whether or not to expand wildcards, and that is set in this case.  But this is all it says:  
  wild_flagA    Either 0 or 1, passed by value. If a 0 is specified, wildcardso?    found in vms_filespec are not expanded. Otherwise, wildcardsn@    are expanded and each one is passed to  action_routine . Only=    expanded file names that correspond to existing UNIX style     files are included].r  < Except that the filenames I specified include no wild cards!I And what I'm seeing isn't that only existing files can be converted, but h# that only existing directories can.  >y! >$ help lexicals f$parse argumentn >(lots snipped)  >      parse-typeu >uD >         Specifies the type of parsing to be performed. By default,F >         the F$PARSE function verifies that the directory in the fileG >         specification exists on the device in the file specification.AH >         However, the existence of the directory is not verified if youJ >         provide a field argument. Note that the device and directory canI >         be explicitly given in one of the arguments, or can be provided  >         by default.I  H So they're probably calling whatever f$parse does with this bit set the I "wrong" way for my purposes, and not providing a method to use it in the   other mode with the C API.   >pG >So what you are seeing with decc$from_vms seems consistent with normalvJ >VMS practice.  Does it perhaps have an optional argument to control this?B >If not, I think the routine should clearly document the behavior. >   G The decc$from_vms routine calls an action routine function if it offersAB up a translation.  But it never goes there now on translations of I nonexistant pathnames.  It might be nice if in those instances it either nD set a global variable to indicate this status or or called called anI alternative function - either way the end user code could then deal with  A the situation.  As opposed to know, where you're basically stuck.o   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduh? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech d   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:42:07 +0000.. From: "T Bluck." <tb@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk>' Subject: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwises7 Message-ID: <wAqYNDAf3Ql5IwLj@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk>   8 yeah,  there has been much talk in this thread regarding= ionization type smoke detectors.  When I worked in this fieldn= we used pairs or small groups of both ionization and optical h7 detectors.  arranged in a "double knock" configuration. : this would mean that if dust triggered an optical, or air ? from the under-floor Air Con triggered an ionization, it wound  ? cause a local alarm, and not drop the gas.  the system was veryo7 successful and in my four years we never had a problem.s  : the ionization detectors were generally more sensitive to ! smoke and draughts of cold air.  v? and the optical detectors to dust (less sensitive to smoke thann ionization)h  1 the detectors we used mostly were made by Apollo.b  
 All The Best.h -- t8 Tim Bluck.   TB565   http://www.planet-tharg.demon.co.uk   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:42:09 GMTk) From: "David Betz" <dbetz@xlisper.mv.com>  Subject: KA650 boot problemt; Message-ID: <BEil5.6125$pu4.451960@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   H I just acquired a MicroVAX II/GPX that has apparently been upgraded to aJ KA650 CPU. I'm trying to get it to boot but am having trouble figuring outK how to configure the switches where the console terminal plugs in. The baudwH rate one is obvious but I'm not sure how to set the paddle switch or theI rotary switch above the baud rate switch. Also, I get the following errorj message during powerup:f   ?62 2 08 FF 00 0000s  I and the message "Normal operation not possible" after the countdown test.dG The panel on the back with the baudrate switch displays the number "6".i  3 Any idea what I need to do to get this beast going?a   Thanks,t  
 David Betz   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:59:53 GMTS% From: hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> , Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment0 Message-ID: <399602F2.9ABAFE6F@bellatlantic.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > I > Oh, God - I can see another half-hour evaporating already:  I sure hope/. > *someone* finds the following interesting... > ? > Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message 7 > news:7sGk5.5549$pu4.396728@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...s% <<SNIP of some good discussion imho>>  > K > Enough of us could see enough of the pieces back then that DEC could haveiM > made the right choices:  the problem was refusal to see them, not inabilitynI > to see them.  That refusal came as the result of management by strategynN > rather than simply continuing to be guided by what customers wanted (coupledM > with awareness of what could reasonably be delivered) and giving it to them.J > at a fair price.  And the philosophy of management by strategy I suspectK > arose from DEC's success and a resulting lack of humility:  a virtue most'K > companies and most high-level managers could benefit from having more of.I >  > - bill  G My own view of this goes back to the late 70s. 76-79 specifically, wheno soG many of the layed off honeywell folks and retiring AirFarce folks were gG brought in.  There was a difference in culture - a serious change from eF responding to customer needs with real solutions to strategic planningH driven approaches.  Kind of like McNamara's dictating break throughs for9 common aircraft (F-111).  I lived thru all that and left.t  C I saw dec as refusing to see the choice between the system buildingl blocktA approach they originally used (and imho that sun used to do theirt initialeG business) and the microprocessor driven revolution that the 8086 reallylH foretold.  Yeah, I think the 8086 was different enough from the 4004 andH 8008 and 8080 to warrant the difference in view - we(deccies, not me andB a couple of friends but the real engineering driving force inside) developed the B 6120, the T11, F11, J11, and started the real internal chip design effort6 in earnest but.... you all know the rest of the story.  > The efforts with hydra, dragon, jupiter, prism, mosaic, venus, vomit/comet,F and all the others were interesting...we were all trying to reduce the time? to market.  Some how we bloated the management side, introducede? bureaucracy, honed it, and went from entrepeneural to strategicm	 committeeo# of maggeteers driven organizations.u  H The Vax, not the first 32 bit machine, was a pretty decent design - evenG th0 I was an 8 guy and then a 10 guy, trying to ignore my 11 days - andoB acutally pretty much epitomized the CISC processor concept.  VMS, C although not tops 10 or 20 was and is a pretty decent OS - hard to n= type those words with my 8 and 10 prejudices but that is the S0 truth.  Especially when compared to MS products.  @ I just recall the guy we hired in 8 land, to be our "manager"...E when he stuck his finger in the 8e power supply fan - right after we o) told him not to...blood all over the lab.?  E sorry to ramble, we had some strong competition inside, this imho didnD increase some costs but really gave the customers what they wanted..G stuff that worked.  yeah, we had a couple of flubbs...but we delivered.   5 Good crew, great minds, great ideas, lousy marketing.S just bob   >  > >w > > terry sp > >l > >s > >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:17:59 -0400P' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r, Subject: Re: Ken Olson's "snake oil" comment( Message-ID: <8n5av2$cgv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  0 hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message* news:399602F2.9ABAFE6F@bellatlantic.net...   ....  I > My own view of this goes back to the late 70s. 76-79 specifically, when  > soH > many of the layed off honeywell folks and retiring AirFarce folks wereH > brought in.  There was a difference in culture - a serious change fromH > responding to customer needs with real solutions to strategic planningJ > driven approaches.  Kind of like McNamara's dictating break throughs for > common aircraft (F-111).  K Thanks:  that's a really interesting possible explanation for the shift.  IiI knew a bunch of Honeywell folks came in, some of them really good people, C but that they and other new arrivals might have brought with them aaL specific - even a McNamara-specific - culture never crossed my mind:  I just= saw it as generic bureaucratic rot due to growth and success.l   - bill  !   I lived thru all that and left.a >nE > I saw dec as refusing to see the choice between the system buildingh > blockeC > approach they originally used (and imho that sun used to do their8	 > initial/I > business) and the microprocessor driven revolution that the 8086 really8J > foretold.  Yeah, I think the 8086 was different enough from the 4004 andJ > 8008 and 8080 to warrant the difference in view - we(deccies, not me andD > a couple of friends but the real engineering driving force inside) > developed thePD > 6120, the T11, F11, J11, and started the real internal chip design > effort8 > in earnest but.... you all know the rest of the story. >l@ > The efforts with hydra, dragon, jupiter, prism, mosaic, venus, > vomit/comet,H > and all the others were interesting...we were all trying to reduce the > timeA > to market.  Some how we bloated the management side, introduced A > bureaucracy, honed it, and went from entrepeneural to strategicI > committeed% > of maggeteers driven organizations.l >nJ > The Vax, not the first 32 bit machine, was a pretty decent design - evenI > th0 I was an 8 guy and then a 10 guy, trying to ignore my 11 days - and-C > acutally pretty much epitomized the CISC processor concept.  VMS,sD > although not tops 10 or 20 was and is a pretty decent OS - hard to> > type those words with my 8 and 10 prejudices but that is the2 > truth.  Especially when compared to MS products. >bB > I just recall the guy we hired in 8 land, to be our "manager"...F > when he stuck his finger in the 8e power supply fan - right after we+ > told him not to...blood all over the lab.n >xG > sorry to ramble, we had some strong competition inside, this imho did.F > increase some costs but really gave the customers what they wanted..I > stuff that worked.  yeah, we had a couple of flubbs...but we delivered.  >'7 > Good crew, great minds, great ideas, lousy marketing. 
 > just bob >n > >h > > >s
 > > > terry sh > > >o > > >i > > >i   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Aug 2000 03:33:14 GMT0 From: jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone)/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwiset, Message-ID: <8n54tq$3cq$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>  = In article <cAHk5.1469$NM6.52728@news-west.usenetserver.com>,e) Jack Peacock <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:n> >"Jonathan Stone" <jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message' >news:8mvf7q$hdh$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU...i  E >Which begs the question, if the end result is O2 then why doesnt the 0 >same ionizing radiation convert the O2 to O3?    B The rates are different. A simple explanation is that the chlorineC free radicals run around breaking down ozone much, much faster thanhD it's produced by UV radiation.  That's why even small concentrationsD of chlorine radicals are worrisome.  (Stratospheric concentraions of7 chorine have increased some 2.5 times since the 1970s.)s   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Aug 2000 03:46:46 GMT0 From: jonathan@DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone)/ Subject: Re: OT: Re: Gases, Noble and Otherwiseh, Message-ID: <8n55n6$3fi$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>  - In article <39937792.AEF327F2@earthlink.net>,b6 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote: >Jack Peacock wrote:  H >As to the discussion of what happens to free Cl2, I have a question: WeA >know that things don't just "magically disappear". Where does itaI >(chlorine) go? ...and what happens when we keep increasing the amount ofa: >"stuff" we "dump" into the environment? Think about it...  D The free radicals (Cl, also ClO, CLO2) are quite reactive; they willF eventually recombine, but it may take years.  But the principal sourceC for these radicals is UV radiation: UV splits the free radicals offrE chloroflurocarbons and other stratospheric chemicals. since the ozonecE layer blocks most of the UV wavlength at the right wavelength, the Clc free-radicals only  5 See http://www.faqs.org/faqs/ozone-depletion/stratcl/m    I >...and yes I *AM* talking about bleaches and disinfectants - names don'ti7 >"magically" make chemical agents any less formidable. k    A Again, see the FAQ or other resources.  Most atmospheric chlorineSA compounds, whether organic or inorganic, are usualy oxized in the.E troposhere and then rained out before they rise high enough for UV to. photolyze them.l  > So. In order for a Cl compund to create stratospheric chlorineB radicals, it has to be inert enough to get through the troposphere; without being broken down (eventually into HCl) then raineds9 out. Effective bleaches and disinfectants are, naturally,  fairly reactive. e     >Another example: F >it doesn't matter whether you call it a "Silver Salute" or a "quarterI >stick", it'll still blow off your hand and a good chunk of your forearm.i: >(Anyone besides me know what a "Minnesota Limit" is/was?)  ; I have no clue what these are, let alone how they have eveno; peripheral relevance to VMS, DEC hardware, or machinerooms.c   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 2000 18:21:32 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)2 Subject: Re: shareable image library (too big ???), Message-ID: <8n44jc$d3u@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  _ In article <4.3.2.7.0.20000811083906.00cab580@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> writes: 0 >At 01:45 PM 8/11/00 +0200, Rainer Lehrig wrote: >>Hello, >>* >>I have the C++ GUI libray Qt for OpenVMS  >>(see: http://www.trolltech.comJ >>and http://www.lehrig.de (there click button service)) as ordinary *.olb >>A >>Now I want to convert the library to a shareable image library.IA >>I produced an option file with SYMBOL_VECTOR = all qt routines.e >> >>The problem is: 0 >>VMS tells me that the SYMBOL_VECTOR is to big. >> >>Question:a >>Is there a workaround ?e >>What can I do ?h > J >You can always have multiple SYMBOL_VECTORs specified. That's what we do & >with perl and it works out just fine.   Have a look at:a  B   http://seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu/pub/SOFTWARE/MAKE_OPT_FROM_OLB.COM  J Which I use like this to build shared images from .olb files (assuming it L doesn't also need further touch up work to the .olb to handle, for instance, global symbols.)  9 $ write sys$output "Starting to build XPM shared library"g; $ @MAKE_OPT_FROM_OLB xpm.olb X11  XPMDATATYPES,XPMCOLORKEYSf& $ link/share=[]xpm_shr.exe xpm.opt/opt0 $ write sys$output "Moving XPM_SHR to SYS$SHARE" $ copy xpm_shr.exe sys$share* $ set file/prot=w:re sys$share:xpm_shr.exe  2 The make_opt_from_olb procedure crates likes like:  - SYMBOL_VECTOR = (XPMFREEATTRIBUTES=PROCEDURE)t  G but it cannot find out about global variables.  You have to figure our  J where those are required by hand and write up that part of the .opt file. I Here's a more complicated example used to build xforms that does some of ( this.D  < $ write sys$output "Starting to build XFORMS shared library" $ create xpm2.opt. $ open/append ofil xpm2.opt * $ write ofil "sys$share:xpm_shr.exe/share"N $ search/out=ofil/match=nor global_psects.opt "this string is not in the file" $ close ofil2 $ @MAKE_OPT_FROM_OLB xforms.olb GL,X11 "" xpm2.opt  8 Where global_psects.opt has a bunch of lines in it like:  $ SYMBOL_VECTOR = (FL_CUR_COLOR=PSECT)  " corresponding to global variables.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edub? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech w   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:49:44 -0700>+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>2& Subject: Re: Simple RT-11/TSX question( Message-ID: <3995B868.F296193F@mmaz.com>  & Cornerstone Information Systems wrote:  C > I have an 11/83 system with RT-11 and TSX installed.  I know next  > to nothing about RT-11 / TSX.  >e< > I want to convert it to 2.11BSD.  I know a lot about UNIX.  N The last time I touched TSX, it was running on an old PDP-11/23+.  Rather thanQ being concerned about OS commands, and etc., what about the uses you have now foriL the TSX system?  In our case, it supported a Dibol based system and that wasQ easily transported over to VMS since VMS also had Dibol and the file systems weren3 similar enough in respect to relative record files.o  P You really need to determine what applications are running on the TSX system, doO you have sources and are you willing to port and if sources do not exist or you!K won't do the porting work, can you get applications that are functionally a % replacement that will run under Un*x?y  Q Details about moving files from one system to another are trivial.  You can learn P more of TSX at the URL http://www.sandh.com/ and examine using Kermit at the URL) http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html    Barry    --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028y   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:31:10 -0400c) From: Bob Schor <bschor@vms.cis.pitt.edu> & Subject: Re: Simple RT-11/TSX question/ Message-ID: <3996248E.4DBDBA3@vms.cis.pitt.edu>   R This is not simple!  RT-11 (and, indeed, most DEC operating systems) do not easilyP allow "generic" tape i/o, but tend to write tape in fixed formats, often similar! to the ANSI labelled tape format.s  L The tape handler in RT-11 is capable of writing (and reading) variable-sizedI blocks, and there have been several tape utilities and libraries built totG facilitate writing "raw" tape, but most (as far as I know) require somec programming.  	 Bob Schora4 Last Known Chair, RT-11/TSX+ Working Group, US DECUS  & Cornerstone Information Systems wrote:  C > I have an 11/83 system with RT-11 and TSX installed.  I know nextt > to nothing about RT-11 / TSX.  > < > I want to convert it to 2.11BSD.  I know a lot about UNIX. >aA > The RT-11/TSX system has Kermit on it.  I plan to use Kermit toyP > bring over the 2.11BSD 9-track tape images.  The system has a 9-track digidata0 > 800/1600BPI drive attached that is functional. > F > My question is:  What are the right command(s) to use under RT-11 toC > transfer disk files directly to tape as images?  How do I controls? > the blocking factor, prevent rewinds between files, etc?  ThegA > images I have need to be laid out sequentially on the tapes andgA > have varying blocking factors (i.e. the first two files need tol. > have a blocksize of 1K, the rest 10K, etc.). >n  > Under UNIX what I would do is: >i" > dd if=file.1 of=/dev/nrst0 bs=1k >    - For the first filet# > dd if=file.2 of=/dev/nrst0 bs=10kt! >    - For the second file.  Etc.  >i< > Any help out there for the requivalent RT-11/TSX commands? >h > Thanks very much,u >s > Gregory Travis) > greg@littlebear.com / greg@ciswired.comi > 812-824-7333   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:52:45 -0400 (EDT)p3 From: "Christy7412@codec.ro" <Christy7412@codec.ro>n: Subject: SLEEPING BURNS FAT!!  LOSE MORE WEIGHT!! (131238)& Message-ID: <66406.39147@lifegood.net>   Lose Weight While Sleeping?t. Sounds Impossible We Know........BUT It's Not!  C Over 50 million Americans are on a diet of some kind, and most are @E frustrated to tears! Dieting doesn't work for the simple reason..... $H  If you restrict calories, the body goes into starvation mode and starts7 consuming MUSCLE for food and storing FAT for reserves!y  ' DREAM AWAY was developed by an M.D. and 4 Is Back by Extensive Scientific Research.  A unique  combination of nutrients .....; Actually Instructs Your Body to Use FAT rather than MUSCLE!d: These ingredients work in synergy to help you achieve your.                     Health & Appearance Goals!  : Just Click http://gmj.1hwy.com/dream.html to find out more    k This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal legislation for commercial e-mailun S.1618-SECTION 301). "Pursuant to Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you byj the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by clicking mailto:qun2@mail.com?subject=remove *******************i 41605e   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:15:16 GMT / From: K.J. Seefried <kseefried@digitalmojo.com>r! Subject: Re: VMS hobbyist versionm8 Message-ID: <2uibpsseqbr1php4bs9tlnt45k340iiroi@4ax.com>  D On 12 Aug 2000 13:14:11 GMT, "Beatles" <l.bechet@freebel.net> wrote:  F >I'm trying to run an old VAXstation 3100 M38 but I don't have any OS.D >I've heard that a free version of VMS is avaible for non commercial	 >purpose.h  E Hobbiest OpenVMS is at http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html.     B Not that you wouldn't want to run VMS, but you can also run NetBSDE (http://www.netbsd.org) on this box for free, and you get the source,c unlike VMS.e  3 - Ken Seefried, CTO & Founding Partner, DigitalMoJoe   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:36:20 -0400o* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>! Subject: Re: VMS hobbyist versionl- Message-ID: <39957D04.DD04F12D@tsoft-inc.com>n   Mike Kenzie wrote: > L > Is it also available on TK50 tape?  My VAXSTATION doesn't have a cd (yet).  K As far as I know, no, the hobby media is not available on TK50.  (I've beene
 wrong before)   K Just get a CD drive.  Don't even consider any other option.  The latest VMS-J releases do not fit on one TK50.  Old RRD4x external drives are on EBAY at times, and go very cheap.n  N You'll also want to look at your disk size.  For VAX the RZ26 (1 GB) is a niceO size, but you can load onto a RZ25.  On Alpha, you'll want a larger drive, I'vec, found a 2 GB drive nice for the system disk.   Dave   -- g4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:07:50 -0400u' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>d  Subject: Re: VMS Vs any other OS( Message-ID: <8n5ac1$c7l$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message& news:39957076.E5DD2D2@earthlink.net... > Bill Todd wrote: > > D > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message+ > > news:3994AF29.7CEC882E@earthlink.net...e > > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > [snip] > > > >e& > > > > JF, you really haven't a clue. > > >eC > > > Just curious, Bill. Does *ANY*one here meet your intellectual 
 standards? > >eL > > The majority of people, in fact:  anyone who doesn't think he or she hasJ > > some kind of personal pipeline to truth that bypasses any need for theL > > support of facts and/or competent authorities well-acquainted with same. >i& > I know I'm gonna regret this, but... >eC > So, years of study and personal experience are meaningless, then?l >wB > ...and if that's the case, then how does one become a "competent6 > authority well-acquainted with (fill in the blank)"? >hJ > Is there some "magic" that happens when one gets "published", or written@ > up in a prominent magazine or journal? Does this somehow grantJ > irrefutable credibility? "Published 'authorities'" have been proven dead/ > wrong in the past. What *IS* the magic there?u > D > Give me - and others like me - the benefit of your infinite(simal)F > wisdom - Consult the "facts and/or competent authorities" and answer > these questions! >-J > My apologies to the group for this outburst. I may well be the only here< > who feels this way, but I'm damned sick and tired of this!  I And I'm sick and tired of dealing with ignorant loud-mouths with inflatedtE egos who don't feel any need to investigate sources before cheerfully K assuming those sources (and anyone else who presumes to disagree with their G view of the world) to be incompetent (though JF has this time been only 8 implicitly dismissive rather than overtly contemptuous).  C Somehow, I'm inclined to believe that a book lauded by the businesssJ community and written by a Harvard Business School professor based upon atK least 5 years of personal research in cooperation with other H.B.S. facultyyF plus other H.B.S. research spanning 40+ years constitutes a 'competentF authority' when compared with the personal views of a random newsgroupL participant whose previous posts have demonstrated a marked lack of depth of comprehension.  L Somehow, I'm inclined to believe that my own personal acquaintance with DaveI Cutler, his source code, many individuals who worked closely with him and J commented thereon, and DEC during the period I worked there (1976 - 1987),I plus the relevant published work of others that has been accepted without G obvious demur by those who might have been expected to offer correction L based on conflicting *personal* knowledge, constitute a significantly betterI basis for forming an evaluation of Dave's contribution to VMS and NT than K the personal views of a (different) random newsgroup participant who to alldB appearances is personally acquainted with none of those sources ofA information (nor any others of remotely similar degrees of direct  applicability).t  I Years of study and personal experience are indeed meaningless unless they G relate at least as directly to the question at hand as the sources withtJ which they conflict *and* are competently applied to that question.  ThereI is no reason to believe that either criterion has been met by your or JFseL babblings this past week:  you both simply appear to like to hear yourselvesK talk, and to somehow believe that your personal feelings and 'observations'8J have intrinsic value that transcends any need for external substantiation, even when called into question.s  H How does one become a competent authority?  By research.  Accompanied byF peer review.  Accompanied by public scrutiny and (at least reasonable)K acceptance.  As contrasted with the kind of osmotic assimilation of generic K 'knowledge' (though that may overly dignify what you've been demonstrating)rL that you seem to believe makes you highly qualified to dispute any and every- issue on which you happen to hold an opinion.e  H The level of VMS bigotry exhibited in this forum by people who really doI seem to try, at least most of the time, to deal with issues on a rationalaK basis and keep a somewhat open mind is frustrating enough, but sufficientlydJ often worth the effort to keep at it.  But you and JF just seem to like toK argue ad infinitum rather than accept that your initially-offered pearls of:L wisdom might in fact just be stupidly simplistic (as in your contention thatK "It's ALL in the marketing!") or outright wrong (as in JF's contention that  Cutler was vastly over-rated).  L I think that covers your questions.  Try to surprise me by actually learning something this time.   - bill   >E > -- > David J. Dachtera: > dba DJE Systemst > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/O   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:11:56 -0400o- From: Niranjan Rajaghatta <hemanir@yahoo.com>o- Subject: Re: VMS vs unix (the true contender) ) Message-ID: <3995936B.5C63841D@yahoo.com>t  % I have quite differing views on this. J Unix was a contender to VMS and has kicked out VMS from many places due to/ cost/skills/people advantages. And it still is. E Believe it or not, like it or not, MS is making inroads both into thet UNIX/VMS/IBMI markets slowly but surely. The only REAL competition to MS here is Linux,n although, it has long ways to go on the desktop front.J MS has already captured the desktop market to such an extent that hardcoreG unix shops are forced to give PC's to unix desktop users because of the @ applications. StarOffice does not even make a dent to MS Office.J MS is on its way  to doing the same to medium class servers and eventually if things go on as now,"L MS will reach the backend market and establish itself there. Only a question of time.L Once intel comes out with the 64 bit processor, there will be a big shift to MS/NT on the backend.oG Unix vendors are doing nothing to offer any credible challenge to this.r   -RSN   Beyonder wrote:h  I > I read the "VMS vs any other OS" thread, and got to thinking, about howlG > widespread unix is. and all the talk of reliability, clustering, etc.wH > How about comparing VMS to Unix ? Linux has clustering now, although I: > wouldn't class it in the same league (I could be wrong). >mG > So how would you compare VMS to say BSD (freebsd/netbsd) or Linux, oreJ > for that matter, Solaris.  Unix is stable, doesn't have the M$ problems. >iC > So the differences I can think of are multi-processing, security,h > effciciency, etc.o >VJ > This is just so I can pass onto people who keep telling me "VMS is dead, > and it's nothing special". > 6 > I love VMS, been a long time user since around 1978. >n > B.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:27:23 -0500i* From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@usfamily.net>- Subject: Re: VMS vs unix (the true contender)w, Message-ID: <3995B32B.BDB57E3E@usfamily.net>   Niranjan Rajaghatta wrote: > ' > I have quite differing views on this.aL > Unix was a contender to VMS and has kicked out VMS from many places due to1 > cost/skills/people advantages. And it still is. G > Believe it or not, like it or not, MS is making inroads both into the- > UNIX/VMS/IBMK > markets slowly but surely. The only REAL competition to MS here is Linux,D
 > although. > it has long ways to go on the desktop front.L > MS has already captured the desktop market to such an extent that hardcoreI > unix shops are forced to give PC's to unix desktop users because of theAB > applications. StarOffice does not even make a dent to MS Office.L > MS is on its way  to doing the same to medium class servers and eventually > if things go on as now, N > MS will reach the backend market and establish itself there. Only a question
 > of time.N > Once intel comes out with the 64 bit processor, there will be a big shift to > MS/NT on the backend.eI > Unix vendors are doing nothing to offer any credible challenge to this.  >  > -RSN >  > Beyonder wrote:c > K > > I read the "VMS vs any other OS" thread, and got to thinking, about howaI > > widespread unix is. and all the talk of reliability, clustering, etc.tJ > > How about comparing VMS to Unix ? Linux has clustering now, although I< > > wouldn't class it in the same league (I could be wrong). > >oI > > So how would you compare VMS to say BSD (freebsd/netbsd) or Linux, or L > > for that matter, Solaris.  Unix is stable, doesn't have the M$ problems. > >ME > > So the differences I can think of are multi-processing, security,[ > > effciciency, etc.t > >rL > > This is just so I can pass onto people who keep telling me "VMS is dead, > > and it's nothing special". > >e8 > > I love VMS, been a long time user since around 1978. > >B > > B.  = I suppose there are many differing views on this, but I agreet@ with some of what you are saying.  The only thing positive I can= say about this it that at our shop, the powers that be are ata@ least starting to question the wisdom of giving MS a blank check= every few years to upgrade and then being handed a new set up > problems. We have installed several new OpenVMS systems in the= last couple of years and management has noticed that cost are== generally under what is spent on MS systems and also that the = OpenVMS systems have been more reliable. The corporate peopler? are now putting together a plan for migrating the desktops fromC@ NT4 to W2K but there are many asking what will we really get out@ of this for our $25 Million. Yes that is really what it is going< to cost. Interesting that MS was being pushed in the name of= cost savings a few years back but now management is realizing4@ that we never spent this kind of cash on computers before buying> into the MS on the desktop lie. Maybe people will wakeup but I= won't hold my breath. BTW, almost all of out mission critical > apps run on either OpenVMS or Tru64 and management is starting= to question running anything other than desktop stuff (OfficeS and email) on MS.o   -- . Keith Brownt kbrown780@usfamily.net   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.450 ************************