1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 28 Jul 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 418       Contents:% Re: 8400 aka GS140, is it or isn't it * Ads (Was: RE: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99)  ADV: High Search Engine Rankings Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?)  Re: Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?)  Re: Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?)   CETS2000 - Very Important Notice- Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working - Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working $ Re: DCPS woes / Tektronix Phaser 850$ Re: DCPS woes / Tektronix Phaser 850% Exabyte Mammoth-2 tape drives and VMS * FA: Digital Pathworks For DOS V4.1 OpenVMS FA: VAX 4105A 64mb on ebay Re: Fortune cookies?@ FW: [OpenVMS] How To Setup The Alternate Console On VAXstation 3, Graphics board in a VAXStation 3100 Model 76 Re: GS140 write I/O wall Re: GS140 write I/O wall Re: GS140 write I/O wall Re: GS140 write I/O wall% I/O Size and I/Os per second overview * I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?. Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?) Re: Interbase 6.0 released as Open Source ) Re: Interbase 6.0 released as Open Source / Re: is there a database available for VMS hobby / Re: is there a database available for VMS hobby  Looking for VMS position Re: Memory & CPU Support  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20  $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20  $99 Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99 ( Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.com( RE: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.com( Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.com$ Re: Nine(9) VAXstation 3100s on eBay Re: PathWorks question" Re[2]: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $999 Sending a HTML content e-mail from VMS 5.5-2 using MX 4.2 ( Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"( Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"( Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX" Standalone backups no more?  RE: Standalone backups no more?  Re: Standalone backups no more?  Re: Standalone backups no more?  Re: Standalone backups no more? ! Re: Stirrings in the undergrowth? 
 Re: Such Crap # Re: The Economist on CPQ DEC merger  Re: Updating RMS Files Re: VMS File Manager! VMS-Oracle DBA position available < Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: help me with the seed of satan pseudo-O/S< Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: help me with the seed of satan pseudo-O/S  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:23:17 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman). Subject: Re: 8400 aka GS140, is it or isn't it6 Message-ID: <8lq275$icj$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  z In article <28Xf5.18347$o71.1178026@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> writes:I :If I put EV6/525 cpu boards in an Alpha 8400, does that make it a GS140?   I   Marketing and services may well have a different perspective on exactly K   what makes an AlphaServer GS140 series system an AlphaServer GS140 series K   system (and the question certainly has its share of rather philosophical  L   overtones :-), but strictly from a technical perspective, the AlphaServer K   GS140 with the 21264 or later (EV6 or EV67) CPU modules installed is the  G   same hardware platform the AlphaServer 8400 series and its 21264 and  !   21264A (EV5, EV56) CPU modules.   L   The central difference across the series of AlphaServer 8200, AlphaServer K   8400, AlphaServer GS60, AlphaServer GS60e, and AlphaServer GS140 systems  H   involves the particular CPU modules used, and differing mounting, and H   differing I/O and power and power expansion options.  The TLSB (systemG   bus), memory, I/O and various other core components are all the same.   I   There may well be some differing support issues involved, and it would  I   not surprise me to learn that the TL6 CPU modules required a different     number of license units.  D   Depending on the particular bottleneck encountered on the current I   AlphaServer 8400 series (and obviously I know very little of , you may  F   or may not gain with the AlphaServer GS140 upgrade.   Much like any I   other upgrade, you will need to upgrade the component that is limiting  F   your current performance in order to see a performance increase.  AsI   I am sure you are also already considering, I'd also take a look at an  I   upgrade to the AlphaServer ES40 and to the AlphaServer GS80 series, as  C   these have newer bus (well, actually, crossbar) system designs.     M :Also, I now see some #1 rated ECOs that are to be applied to all GS systems. $ :Does that include my upgraded 8400?  H   Though without knowledge of the particular ECO kits are referenced, I +   would tend to assume the answer is "yes".   E :I have not had a Compaq (or Digital) sales person call me for years.   F   Though not a "Sales Puke" :-), please send me the requisite contact F   information (offline), and I'll work on getting this effort rolling.     Hoff     ("Engineering Puke" :-)   N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:21:19 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com3 Subject: Ads (Was: RE: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99) > Message-ID: <80256929.00665FA9.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>  4 Bill McLaughlin (mcbill20 at hotmail dot com) wrote:M >>>Here's my suggestion for Island Computer-- why not create a list just like I comp.os.vms where those who are interested can subscribe. I for one don't D worry at all about sending my real personal or work email address toL companies who don't sell it to others. I very rarely get any type of spam atI my main personal address and I am subscribed to several commercial lists: # ammonman.com, x10.com, oracle, etc.    Just my .02.  F So far, I don't have any problem with the Island messages, but I wouldK definitely hate to have comp.os.vms filled up with every VAX/Alpha dealer's  ads.<<<   P I think a better way might be for Island to create their own list of people thatO want to receive this kind of e-mail.  Then they could send the ads out to those L that they have addresses for.  Anyone that wants to be added/removed to/fromE their list could e-mail their postmaster and ask to be added/removed.   P It would obviously be the responsibility of Island to keep their list secure but' this is part of normal business anyway.    Steve.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:05:53 +0000 (GMT)  From: mike@yycbvecker2931.mx) Subject: ADV: High Search Engine Rankings + Message-ID: <200007280005.AAA24490@relmess>    Removal instructions below  # I saw your listing on the internet.   % I work for a company that specializes # in getting clients web sites listed ! as close to the top of the major   search engines as possible.   # Our fee is only $29.95 per month to ! submit your site at least twice a ! month to over 350 search engines   and directories.  $ To get started and put your web site$ in the fast lane, call our toll free
 number below.      Mike Bender  888-532-8842  & To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:20:13 GMT0 From: FAZEKAS Mihaly <michael@goliat.eik.bme.hu>" Subject: Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?), Message-ID: <8lq21d$r85$1@goliat.eik.bme.hu>  ' I'm searching Apache for OpenVMS/Alpha. A But i want VAX version. Can i find OpenVMS/VAX version of Apache? % I'm checked in the web, but not find.    What can i do?& (i'm not a good programmer,.... :))) )   --    mailto:michael@goliat.eik.bme.hu Phone: 463-1966    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:16:49 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)& Subject: Re: Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?)6 Message-ID: <8lq8s1$jf0$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  _ In article <8lq21d$r85$1@goliat.eik.bme.hu>, FAZEKAS Mihaly <michael@goliat.eik.bme.hu> writes:  ..B :But i want VAX version. Can i find OpenVMS/VAX version of Apache? .. :What can i do?   =   Um, get the OSU web server, or get an OpenVMS Alpha system?   N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 20:47:45 GMT& From: Cthulhu <cthulhu@kadath.deep.it>& Subject: Re: Apache for OpenVMS (VAX?)( Message-ID: <8lq75h$n6$1@kadath.deep.it>  1 FAZEKAS Mihaly <michael@goliat.eik.bme.hu> wrote:    > What can i do?   Use OSU HTTPD,: 	http://www.er6.eng.ohio-state.edu/www/doc/serverinfo.html   	suggestingly, 	   Cthulhu    --    G        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it wgah'nagl fhtgan! % 		       <cthulhu at flashnet dot it>    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:46:15 -0400 7 From: "Information CETS2000" <Information@CETS2000.com> ) Subject: CETS2000 - Very Important Notice 2 Message-ID: <8lqhl0$7bv$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>   August 1, 2000   Dear Fellow DECUS Member:   9 By now you should be aware of Compaq Enterprise Technical 9 Symposium 2000, which DECUS is co-producing along with NT ? Wizards, Compaqs ASE program, and Compaqs CSA program.  There ; is an important new feature for DECUS members, of which you 8 should be aware.  The very valuable Hands-on Interactive> Workshops require advanced reservation prior to the Symposium.A This advance reservation will begin in late August.  All of these @ Workshops have very limited space available and the seats in the. most popular workshops will disappear quickly.  < What are Hands-on Interactive Workshops?  They are your best? opportunity to "learn by doing," because experience is the best < teacher.  These small, instructor-led workshops give you theA opportunity to work with some of Compaq's most advanced platforms > and products.  For example, you can use the lab environment to= learn about installing fibre channel SANs, configuring remote = server management, planning for disaster recovery, setting up > security, optimizing server clusters, and so much more.  TheseA workshops give you the most practical technical education you can ; get.  There are dozens of workshops where you can hone your @ skills (see "Consideration" list below).  Truckloads of servers,A PCs, workstations, storage units, backup systems - you name it! - < are being hauled to Los Angeles for the Hands-on Interactive
 Workshops.  > After you register for the symposium, you will be sent special< instructions for choosing and registering for your preferred@ Hands-on Interactive Workshops.  I strongly suggest you consider> completing your registration process prior to the last week in; August in order to have the best opportunity to reserve the ? Workshops you want.  Other groups involved in Compaq Enterprise > Technical Symposium 2000 are experienced with this process and? know to register early to be immediately eligible when the this ? special registration process opens.  Seats go first come, first  served.   = Note: To insure fairness each attendee will be limited to one A advanced registration, so choose wisely.  You may attend a second ; workshop by registering on-site if space becomes available.   < For questions about CETS-2000 visit www.CETS2000.com or send! email to Information@CETS2000.com        Kristi Browder* U.S. DECUS Executive Sponsor for CETS 2000 Kristi.Browder@CETS2000.com         3  Hands-on Interactive Workshops Under Consideration   < The following is a working list showing some of the Hands-on@ Interactive Workshops being considered for the Compaq Enterprise? Technical Symposium 2000.  This is not a final list and changes > are likely.  There will be deletions and additions.  The final@ list will be available in late August. However, these topics areA representative of the types of Hands-on Interactive Workshops you  can expect at the symposium.  : Installing & Configuring AlphaServers for ProLiant JunkiesB Building and Installing a Web Infrastructure with Apache/PHP/MySQL/ Getting the Most Out of Alpha Performance Tools   Building a Linux Beowulf ClusterA Compaq Enterprise Toolkit - The OpenVMS Edition Hands-On Workshop ? Configuring an Ultra - High Availability Environment on OpenVMS ' UNIX - Get More out of Your Application  Installing Linux on Alpha 1 ProLiant/Linux Web Clusters in a DISA Environment 0 Implementing Intelligent Manageability Solutions, Thin Client Configuration and Management Lab# TaskSmart C - General Configuration $ Tools for Deploying ProLiant Servers> Compaq Insight Manager XE 2.0 - Basic Implementation and Usage SCO Clustering Workshop " Novell NetWare Clustering WorkshopA Compaq Insight Manager XE 2.0 - Advanced Implementation and Usage = Configuring Compaq Enterprise Management Tools for Management  Service Providers   Windows 2000 Clustering Workshop' Tasksmart C Series, Layer 4 and Layer 7 ! SANworks Storage Resource Manager " Compaq SANworks Virtual Replicator& RA4X00 and EBS SAN Technology Workshop' Enterprise Backup Solution Architecture 0 Multi Vendor RA8000FC Installation on NT and SUN4 Multi Vendor RA8000FC Installation on TRU64 and OVMS6 Multi Vendor RA8000FC Installation on Novell and Linux) Compaq Performance Analysis Tool Workshop 0 Linux Installation/Configuration on StorageWorks6 Windows 2000 Administration for the NT 4 Administrator LINUX for the VMS User	 LINUX GUI - Building a Web Page with Microsoft Front Page , Disk Cloning Technology for IT Professionals
 Intro to HTML 1 Intro to SDA by Viewing OpenVMS Process Internals 5 Tru64/TruCluster Administration Intro for VMS Cluster  Administrators! VMS Cluster Transitions in Action  VMS Lock Manager in Action RMS File Repair Techniques   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:27:14 GMT ) From: Art Rice <arice.NOSPAM@ue.itug.org> 6 Subject: Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working8 Message-ID: <11v0oscj0nqlidhn7vhgv6vk48bkudaotn@4ax.com>  B On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:38:15 GMT, rob.lesan@zdnetonebox.com wrote:  G >In article <8aGf5.9924$Uo6.528480@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, 3 >  "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> wrote: I >> First,  let me apologize for inserting my 2 cents where it was neither  >> requested, nor beneficial.  >>E >> Second, I thank you for explaining your position to me rather than C >> flaming me.  That is how a good discussion should be carried out  >>C >> I hope you get to go to both seminars.  I am sure that you would 6 >> find both of them beneficial in one way or another. > F >Also in hind sight, I realize my original comments were uncalled for.A >I have been losing faith in Compaq/ITUG ever since Compaq bought C >Tandem.  The entire DECUS/ITUG thing has me rather worked up and I E >cannot speak for the DECUS members, but I can't help but feel we are G >both going to lose some focus from our annual conventions by combining  >them into one.  > F >I don't know what Compaq plans, they probably don't either, but untilF >the two product lines meet (and they will with the Alpha's going intoF >the Himalaya systems) I can't see the customer value in incorporating >the user communities. > H >What I am hoping for in CETS200 is some insight into the engineering ofC >future products from Compaq.  Maybe someone at this conference can F >explain to me why Compaq is using the NonStop attribute with anything >but a Himalaya... >   @ Seems that way to a lot of us.  The Compaq web pages are a greatE source of lost links because they seem to be unsure of where they are  going.  E As for NonStop, some of the Alpha Servers can do a pretty good job of ? keeping up with the Himalays although OpenVMS does not have the D built-in redundancy that Guardian has.  This actually goes back to aF few other threads in that OpenVMS is a general purpose OS and Guardian+ was designed to excel in the OLTP market.  i  @ I think Compaq is using NonStop as a marketing term to imply "noF matter what your business, we can keep it running 24x7."   Heck, if anE NT server stays up for a week without needing a reboot, well,  in theeD NT world, that is non stop.   Those of us running Guardian, VAX, and OpenVMS know better. :>)     -- s
 Art Rice   ** # Special Data Processing Corporationo& --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do t% not reflect the views of my employer.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:32:44 GMT5) From: Art Rice <arice.NOSPAM@ue.itug.org>O6 Subject: Re: CETS2000 Registration is open and working8 Message-ID: <nov0ossncrkamol2didq3ba2pk4iom8sgo@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:27:14 GMT, Art Rice <arice.NOSPAM@ue.itug.org>  wrote:  C >On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:38:15 GMT, rob.lesan@zdnetonebox.com wrote:h >dH >>In article <8aGf5.9924$Uo6.528480@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,4 >>  "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> wrote:J >>> First,  let me apologize for inserting my 2 cents where it was neither >>> requested, nor beneficial. >>> F >>> Second, I thank you for explaining your position to me rather thanD >>> flaming me.  That is how a good discussion should be carried out >>> D >>> I hope you get to go to both seminars.  I am sure that you would7 >>> find both of them beneficial in one way or another.c >>G >>Also in hind sight, I realize my original comments were uncalled for.eB >>I have been losing faith in Compaq/ITUG ever since Compaq boughtD >>Tandem.  The entire DECUS/ITUG thing has me rather worked up and IF >>cannot speak for the DECUS members, but I can't help but feel we areH >>both going to lose some focus from our annual conventions by combining >>them into one. >>G >>I don't know what Compaq plans, they probably don't either, but until0G >>the two product lines meet (and they will with the Alpha's going intoaG >>the Himalaya systems) I can't see the customer value in incorporatings >>the user communities.  >>I >>What I am hoping for in CETS200 is some insight into the engineering of D >>future products from Compaq.  Maybe someone at this conference canG >>explain to me why Compaq is using the NonStop attribute with anythings >>but a Himalaya...d >> >NA >Seems that way to a lot of us.  The Compaq web pages are a great F >source of lost links because they seem to be unsure of where they are >going.c >sF >As for NonStop, some of the Alpha Servers can do a pretty good job of@ >keeping up with the Himalays although OpenVMS does not have theE >built-in redundancy that Guardian has.  This actually goes back to anG >few other threads in that OpenVMS is a general purpose OS and Guardian , >was designed to excel in the OLTP market.   >hA >I think Compaq is using NonStop as a marketing term to imply "no-G >matter what your business, we can keep it running 24x7."   Heck, if an:F >NT server stays up for a week without needing a reboot, well,  in theE >NT world, that is non stop.   Those of us running Guardian, VAX, and.> Sorry, that should be NSK, VMS, and OpenVMS.  VAX is the older	 hardware.. >OpenVMS know better. :>)x   -- r
 Art Rice   **.# Special Data Processing Corporationp& --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do s% not reflect the views of my employer.o   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:43:04 PDTT From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515)- Subject: Re: DCPS woes / Tektronix Phaser 850m3 Message-ID: <OPT314W7fANO@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>i  M In article <rdeininger-2707001102400001@user-2ivec5u.dialup.mindspring.com>, r9     	rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: = > In article <8lpb4p$6ge$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, a=     		DAVISM@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (Michael T. Davis) wrote:h >  > O >>         I also believe I came up against a bug in the 850's AppleTalk stack,aL >> which might extend to the other network stacks, depending on the firmware >> implementation.   > J > Hmm.  Ethertalk seems to be working perfectly on the 850, once I ignoredG > the macintosh software installer and installed by hand.  Made me wishoK > the VMS implementation of Appletalk was still supported; I'd have used itu/ > in a minute when DCPS started having trouble.   H         As Paul Anderson of GENICOM is  quicl to point out, Appletalk onH     VMS  _still_ works just fine under VMS/VAX 7.2 and VMS/Alpha  7.2-1.H     For recent VMS versions,  be  sure  you  have  the  latest/last  MSAH     distribution,  MSA 1.3A.  I've installed _just_ the ATK piece to get<     the Appletalk/Ethertalk transport...no license required.  H         Given that, I'll bet you can  use  DCPS  to talk to the 850 overH     Appletalk  just  fine as an "unrecognized" printer.  Lot's of  AppleH     LaserWriters are similarly unrecognized but work properly.  (I  have+     no experience with Tektronix printers.)t           -Ken --  M  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edul:  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:41:31 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)- Subject: Re: DCPS woes / Tektronix Phaser 850HL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2807000141310001@user-2ivecal.dialup.mindspring.com>   In article <OPT314W7fANO@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) wrote:0    J >         As Paul Anderson of GENICOM is  quicl to point out, Appletalk onJ >     VMS  _still_ works just fine under VMS/VAX 7.2 and VMS/Alpha  7.2-1.J >     For recent VMS versions,  be  sure  you  have  the  latest/last  MSAJ >     distribution,  MSA 1.3A.  I've installed _just_ the ATK piece to get> >     the Appletalk/Ethertalk transport...no license required. > J >         Given that, I'll bet you can  use  DCPS  to talk to the 850 overJ >     Appletalk  just  fine as an "unrecognized" printer.  Lot's of  AppleJ >     LaserWriters are similarly unrecognized but work properly.  (I  have- >     no experience with Tektronix printers.)i    N Thanks.  I'll keep it in mind.  I haven't given up on the pure tcpip solution  yet.   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 19:13:20 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.eduh. Subject: Exabyte Mammoth-2 tape drives and VMS* Message-ID: <8lq1kg$kf$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>   Hello,  F It looks like our collaborators are going with  Exabyte Mammoth-2 tapeA drives, so we will also, any advice, known gotchas, etc. would bet appreciated.   Thanks,y Robert   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:38:36 GMT 5 From: "headley sappleton" <hsappleton@sprintmail.com>V3 Subject: FA: Digital Pathworks For DOS V4.1 OpenVMS0E Message-ID: <0f7g5.15193$5N1.526538@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>i  @ http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=393447574G Auction Ends on:                 Saturday, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:40:23 PDTr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:39:12 -0400u From: "DA" <dana@decsales.com># Subject: FA: VAX 4105A 64mb on ebaye/ Message-ID: <bn7g5.87$jK3.11737@news.shore.net>    Vax 4105A  64mb  on ebay@ http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=393980706   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:45:18 +0200 (MET)l From: ZINSER@sysdev.exchange.de  Subject: Re: Fortune cookies?h3 Message-ID: <01JSAJYRBWK29JF5P2@sysdev.exchange.de>8   Hello!  : > From:	IN%"INFO-VAX@MVB.SAIC.COM" 25-JUL-2000 12:12:29.98 > Subj:	RE: Fortune cookies?  	 > >Hello!V > >XD > >       A OpenVMS version of a fortune cookie program can be found > >       at > >a: > >       http://www.decus.de:8080/www/vms/sw/cookie.htmlx >  > M > Any fortune cookie or "quote of the day" is remarkably easy to write in any1I > language.  The major problem is in increasing your "quotes" database.  A  A 	Yup, and the good thing about this version is that it comes withc 	quite a number of quotes ;-)d   > I haveR > lost track of where colleagues picked up quotes from.  I know that one source is* > Art Ragosta's database of pithy sayings. > M > If anyone needs a copy of what we have collected, email me because I do not O > think any are copyright.  Pithy comments from Art and colleagues, and others,-L > and newspaper headlines, some added from .au papers that are as bad as any* > others.  (Art, do you have a copyright?)  = 	Definitly interested, can you make it available for downloadd 	somewhere?    					Greetings, Martin >  > Regards, Paddy >  > Paddy O'Brien, > Transmission Development,< > TransGrid, > PO Box A1000, Sydney South,c > NSW 2000, AustraliaP >  > Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 > Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050( > Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au > O > Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people, = > but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.-P Dr. Martin P.J. Zinser                                 zinser@sysdev.exchange.de2 Deutsche Boerse Systems AG                        O Koenigsberger Str. 29                                  Tel: +49 69 2101 5634   0L 60284 Frankfurt                                        FAX: +49 69 2101 3411P Germany                                                Private:  zinser@decus.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:39:51 -0500n1 From: "MacMillan, Neil (nmcm)" <nmcm@chevron.com>uI Subject: FW: [OpenVMS] How To Setup The Alternate Console On VAXstation 3a@ Message-ID: <55DB1FE17906D411AD9600805F6F06163115E7@chevron.com>  B > [OpenVMS] How To Setup The Alternate Console On VAXstation 3100s > H >      Any party granted access to the following copyrighted informationL >      (protected under Federal Copyright Laws), pursuant to a duly executedK >      Compaq Service Agreement may, under the terms of such agreement copy H >      all or selected portions of this information for internal use andH >      distribution only. No other copying or distribution for any other >      purpose is authorized.eD > Copyright (c) Digital Equipment Corporation 1989, 1997. All rights > reserved.a > " > PRODUCTS:   VAX VMS, Version 4.n5 >             OpenVMS VAX, Versions 5.0 through 5.5-1e >  > COMPONENT:  CONSOLE  t > , > SOURCE:     Digital Equipment Corporation  >  >  > OVERVIEW:o > D > The VAXstation 3100 series machines can have an alternate OperatorD > Console to replace using the top lines of the Workstation monitor. >  > 
 > BACKGROUND:  > A > With DECwindows or VMS Workstation Software (VWS), the operatorhE > console is, by default, the top portion of the Workstation monitor. E > For systems that require capturing important OPCOM messages, or forIE > systems using VAXcluster Console System (VCS), an alternate console  > can be used. >  >  > PREPARATION: > C > On VAXstation Model 40 and Model 48 systems, there is an externalkE > DIP switch located on the far right (when looking at the back) that F > needs to be in the UP position.  This is the Data Terminal Equipment > (DTE) switch.a > D > On VAXstation Model 38 systems, the switch is external and labeled= > "S3."  It is located on the back of the CPU box between the G > bi-directional port and the diagnostic lights.  The switch must be in. > the UP position. > D > On the early VAXstation Model 30 systems, the switch is internallyH > located and will require Field Service to change the setting to the UPF > position.  On later VAXstation Model 30 systems there is an externalH > access to the internal switch.  It is located on the back in the lower > right corner.  >  >  > PROCEDURE: > D > A terminal should be connected to the printer port, TTA3: (denotedF > with a printer icon) on the back of the system.  The terminal deviceA > must be set up to communicate at 9600 baud.  When the system is E > powered up, the console is now the terminal and not the WorkstationAH > monitor.  The important thing to note is that you must power cycle the; > system for the new console to be used for the first time.n > A > Additionally, you will notice that when doing a TEST 50 consoleIG > command, there will be a single question mark (?) located next to thetH > line labeled "DZ" (diagnostic C).  The self-test is successful and the > system will boot normally. > D > Also note that with the alternate console, hitting the <BREAK> keyE > will halt the system.  For VT terminals, it is recommended that yougD > disable this function in the SETUP KEYBOARD menu and make this the" > default setting on the terminal. >  >  > SEARCH/QUERY WORDS:g >  > VS3100   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:24:02 -0400L2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>5 Subject: Graphics board in a VAXStation 3100 Model 76e7 Message-ID: <200007271624_MC2-ADB3-ECD9@compuserve.com>   J         The "SPX" says that the machine does 1280x1024 graphics!  I don't=  . think that the VR150 supports that resolution.  J         I believe that, in addition to the SPX graphics board, there is a=  J "dumb" graphics facility on the mother board.  That would explain why you=  D got a display after removing the graphics board.  I don't think it'sE defective, it just doesn't work with the VR150.  Try reinstalling the G graphics board and connecting to a good quality multi-sync monitor withe 1280x1024 capability.rJ You will probably need a special cable or adapter and I don't know what y= ou would need.0    $ Message text written by "David Betz"J >I recently acquired a VAXStation 3100 Model 76 SPX and am having trouble=  J getting it to work with my VR150 monitor. When I plugged it in and powere= doJ up the 3100 all I got was a blank screen. I verified that the monitor wor= ksJ by connecting it to another machine. I also checked the switch on the bac= kkB of the 3100 to make sure it was in the down position to select theJ monitor/keyboard rather than an external console. Then I decided to see i= fPE it was the graphics board that was causing the trouble. I removed thegE daughter board (the component side says GS-2 and the solder side says7B SCANPROC 8 PLANE 2D) and I now see text on the screen on power up.   My questions are:2  F 1) Is the graphics board defective or is it just incompatible with the VR150t monitor?  C 2) If they are incompatible, which monitor do I need for this model  VAXStation?r  H 3) Is there any problem with running the 3100 without the graphics board installed?<    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:00:38 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t! Subject: Re: GS140 write I/O walll( Message-ID: <8lpt98$p8f$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messager% news:HX$lccxP1EZb@eisner.decus.org...h   ...n  : > "you don't know why raw or block is as slow as they are" > 9 > Well.. when faced with a situation like that, I believe  > we have 2 choices. >UA > 1)  They are wrong and a bunch of dolts for spouting nonesense.o > 2)  They are correct.c >eF > I'm being bad and assuming 1).  I have seen similar things elsewhere( > but don't feel like dredging for them.  L As you said in your second post, you're being 'bad' by assuming (2).  And byK doing so after I've told you otherwise, you're being doubly-bad by assumingoG I don't know what I'm talking about (which is very seldom a good bet to  make).   >fG > By counter-example can you show me another OS that does 127 Block I/OeJ > in less than 35 ms?  And also maybe a link to that information?  Thanks.  K I can tell you that two years ago I was involved in a project that obtainedgK about 85 MBytes/sec sustained streaming performance to a 9-drive RAID-3 box L over FC from a single NT system.  That's over 10 MB/sec/disk (given that theL 9th disk was parity) in a configuration that was almost certainly limited byJ the FC or (possibly) the PCI (since even 2 years ago disks streamed fasterJ than that - and disk streaming data rates have gotten significantly faster since then).  I A competent OS, used competently, does not substantially detract from raw"I disk performance (though it can enhance that performance in various ways, H via caching).  For small requests, performance is dominated by seek plusH rotational latency, which on contemporary disks varies from 5 + 3 ms. onK average (for a 10K rpm disk) to 7 + 4 ms. on average (for a 7200 rpm disk).tF So since streaming rates even on inner cylinders are now upwards of 20I MBytes/sec, even transferring 64 KB (127 blocks) takes only an additional-J 2 - 3 ms., for a total of 10 - 14 ms.  Add a millisecond or so for gettingK the command through the SCSI adapter and at most a few hundred microseconds J for OS processing and the result is 11 - 15 ms. - which is consistent withI enough real-world performance results I've seen that I have no hesitation2J whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how doG you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you'veiI quoted elsewhere) out of a disk if it takes 1/30th of a second to do eachiH one?  The transfer overhead certainly doesn't explain it:  the streamingL data rate off the platter is a simple function of rotational speed and trackI capacity, neither of which is subject to debate (unless you return to the J days of interleaving or scatter the blocks around as old Unix file systems did).   E However, the point you continue to overlook is that the issue here iseJ *sequential* (streaming) performance, not random-access performance (whichF the above numbers apply to).  For streaming performance, only a singleJ initial seek (and rotational wait) occurs, followed by continuous transferH at whatever rate the disk can sustain (unless you're using IDE, as notedH previously).  Thus the transfer time for each 127 blocks after the first request is 2 - 3 ms.   >l? > The worst part about my results is I was on a standalone testyH > config with no "PC" connection, just dumb terminal so I was scribblingB > everything by hand.  That said, I did see a noticeable decrease.> > I didn't throw that info out but it is buried on the desk or > in a file folder :-(.t >rA > And yes, disk hardware supports 10-20 MByte/sec ... tell us howh > you get that out of a disk.t   As I said above:  L 1.  Use an OS that handles streaming competently (VMS qualifies; so does NT; some Unixes do).   2.  Use it competently (YMMV).  9 3.  The current numbers are more like 25 - 40 MBytes/sec.o   - bill   >  > RobA >a   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:43:35 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)! Subject: Re: GS140 write I/O wall + Message-ID: <Zv1lFJiaiBTT@eisner.decus.org>i  R In article <8lpt98$p8f$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  7 > Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagek' > news:HX$lccxP1EZb@eisner.decus.org...u >  > ...  > ; >> "you don't know why raw or block is as slow as they are"  >>: >> Well.. when faced with a situation like that, I believe >> we have 2 choices.e >>B >> 1)  They are wrong and a bunch of dolts for spouting nonesense. >> 2)  They are correct. >>G >> I'm being bad and assuming 1).  I have seen similar things elsewherea) >> but don't feel like dredging for them.- > N > As you said in your second post, you're being 'bad' by assuming (2).  And byM > doing so after I've told you otherwise, you're being doubly-bad by assuming:I > I don't know what I'm talking about (which is very seldom a good bet to4 > make). >  	 ? 	So.. how do you screw up measuring raw or block I/O?  We don't1C 	know.  But the folks that made these mistakes sure are responsible0> 	for all of us going out and finding similar documentation and> 	believing it!  Shame on me!  Shame on all of us!  But most of@ 	all shame on them!!!  But then again, they might just be right.   >>H >> By counter-example can you show me another OS that does 127 Block I/OK >> in less than 35 ms?  And also maybe a link to that information?  Thanks.t > M > I can tell you that two years ago I was involved in a project that obtained.M > about 85 MBytes/sec sustained streaming performance to a 9-drive RAID-3 boxiN > over FC from a single NT system.  That's over 10 MB/sec/disk (given that theN > 9th disk was parity) in a configuration that was almost certainly limited byL > the FC or (possibly) the PCI (since even 2 years ago disks streamed fasterL > than that - and disk streaming data rates have gotten significantly faster > since then). >   ; 	Thanks... this explains a lot.  Guess a point to make herea: 	in "my tendency to overlook things" is that most folks in. 	the world aren't streaming.  Very few (based A 	on percentages ;-) in fact.  I suspected it had something to do ' 	with streaming.  K > A competent OS, used competently, does not substantially detract from raw"K > disk performance (though it can enhance that performance in various ways,oJ > via caching).  For small requests, performance is dominated by seek plusJ > rotational latency, which on contemporary disks varies from 5 + 3 ms. onM > average (for a 10K rpm disk) to 7 + 4 ms. on average (for a 7200 rpm disk). H > So since streaming rates even on inner cylinders are now upwards of 20K > MBytes/sec, even transferring 64 KB (127 blocks) takes only an additionaliL > 2 - 3 ms., for a total of 10 - 14 ms.  Add a millisecond or so for gettingM > the command through the SCSI adapter and at most a few hundred microsecondsnL > for OS processing and the result is 11 - 15 ms. - which is consistent withK > enough real-world performance results I've seen that I have no hesitationnL > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how doI > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you'ves4                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^> 	Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted are 	based on 2-4K I/Os.  K > quoted elsewhere) out of a disk if it takes 1/30th of a second to do each  > one?      D > The transfer overhead certainly doesn't explain it:  the streamingN > data rate off the platter is a simple function of rotational speed and trackK > capacity, neither of which is subject to debate (unless you return to thenL > days of interleaving or scatter the blocks around as old Unix file systems > did).c > G > However, the point you continue to overlook is that the issue here istL > *sequential* (streaming) performance, not random-access performance (whichH > the above numbers apply to).  For streaming performance, only a singleL > initial seek (and rotational wait) occurs, followed by continuous transferJ > at whatever rate the disk can sustain (unless you're using IDE, as notedJ > previously).  Thus the transfer time for each 127 blocks after the first > request is 2 - 3 ms. >   9 	Yeah.. I did overlook that .. on purpose.  Well actuallyk; 	did I overlook that?!???  Of course I didn't.  You have met9 	believing I overlooked something.  What I did do is drop0: 	a link into a reference.  THAT is what THAT document says= 	AND it is also MY experience (I/O rate tails off as I/O size09 	increases).  I/O rate tails off... I got fewer and fewerr< 	I/Os (random in my case but I purposely chose SEQUENTIAL as9 	a reference point as it is better.  Hoping to argue froma> 	the greater to the lesser and leaving the lesser out.  As you: 	see from that document, the random rate is near 60 ms for 	UFS):  > http://oradoc.photo.net/ora8doc/DOC/server803/A54638_01/io.htm  < 	I think we should drop them an email and let them know they9 	have it all wrong.  Imagine them taking the time to make6C 	such pretty graphs and they are worthless!  But couldn't the issue B 	be by the time it receives the next commands or command the heads@ 	moved?  Or are we to assume commands are streamed and every I/OB 	will be on the next block boundary?  Surely we aren't overlooking; 	anything are we?  Besides, wouldn't all I/O sizes have the = 	same response time?  Why would the graphs grow on SEQUENTIAL B 	reads as reads are streamed?  I/O size shouldn't effect anything,; 	or are there buffer setup issues OR I/O completion issues i< 	where the target OS verifies it got a good I/O?  NT doesn't> 	do anything like verify an I/O does it?  Maybe we should ask 7 	about some of these things when we drop them an email.q     >>@ >> The worst part about my results is I was on a standalone testI >> config with no "PC" connection, just dumb terminal so I was scribblingeC >> everything by hand.  That said, I did see a noticeable decrease.e? >> I didn't throw that info out but it is buried on the desk orh >> in a file folder :-(. >>B >> And yes, disk hardware supports 10-20 MByte/sec ... tell us how >> you get that out of a disk. >  > As I said above: > N > 1.  Use an OS that handles streaming competently (VMS qualifies; so does NT; > some Unixes do). >   > 2.  Use it competently (YMMV). > ; > 3.  The current numbers are more like 25 - 40 MBytes/sec.i >   4 	Yes.. 25-40 MByte/sec with Ultra III and whatnot...   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:51:23 -0400s' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s! Subject: Re: GS140 write I/O wallf( Message-ID: <8lq3om$3v6$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagei% news:Zv1lFJiaiBTT@eisner.decus.org...n   ...d  6 > So.. how do you screw up measuring raw or block I/O?  H Gee, Rob, I don't know.  In fact, I already *said* I don't know:  I justC know they screwed it up (or that their results refer to an unstated I context - such as Oracle table accesses - that has constraints that don't & apply to the current discussion here).  
   We don'tD > know.  But the folks that made these mistakes sure are responsible? > for all of us going out and finding similar documentation ande? > believing it!  Shame on me!  Shame on all of us!  But most of7A > all shame on them!!!  But then again, they might just be right.t  I In the absence of conflicting information, that could have been the case.cH But you've been in possession of conflicting information for a couple ofD posts now:  I don't really give a damn whether you believe it, but I( wouldn't want you to lead others astray.   >e > >>J > >> By counter-example can you show me another OS that does 127 Block I/OD > >> in less than 35 ms?  And also maybe a link to that information? Thanks.  > >rF > > I can tell you that two years ago I was involved in a project that obtainedK > > about 85 MBytes/sec sustained streaming performance to a 9-drive RAID-3  boxML > > over FC from a single NT system.  That's over 10 MB/sec/disk (given that the E > > 9th disk was parity) in a configuration that was almost certainlyi
 limited byG > > the FC or (possibly) the PCI (since even 2 years ago disks streamede fasterG > > than that - and disk streaming data rates have gotten significantlyd faster > > since then). > >  >S< > Thanks... this explains a lot.  Guess a point to make here; > in "my tendency to overlook things" is that most folks ini. > the world aren't streaming.  Very few (basedA > on percentages ;-) in fact.  I suspected it had something to do  > with streaming.   L Duh - that's what this discussion has been about:  streaming.  When you talkL about *sequential* performance (as you have been) for an application such asG Backup (which was what this discussion started with), streaming is what E you're talking about (unless the Backup implementor was incompetent).x  F It's possible that the Oracle data referred to sequential access to an8 Oracle database table, which is something else entirely.   > I > > A competent OS, used competently, does not substantially detract from  rawsG > > disk performance (though it can enhance that performance in varioust ways,eL > > via caching).  For small requests, performance is dominated by seek plusL > > rotational latency, which on contemporary disks varies from 5 + 3 ms. onH > > average (for a 10K rpm disk) to 7 + 4 ms. on average (for a 7200 rpm disk).J > > So since streaming rates even on inner cylinders are now upwards of 20B > > MBytes/sec, even transferring 64 KB (127 blocks) takes only an
 additionalF > > 2 - 3 ms., for a total of 10 - 14 ms.  Add a millisecond or so for gettingoB > > the command through the SCSI adapter and at most a few hundred microsecondsI > > for OS processing and the result is 11 - 15 ms. - which is consistent  withB > > enough real-world performance results I've seen that I have no
 hesitationK > > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how  doK > > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you've.6 >                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^? > Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted are  > based on 2-4K I/Os.g  G Rob, Rob, Rob:  will you *ever* pay attention.  Please re-read the nexte paragraph you quote below.  G On second thought, I'd better explain it for you, because such requests-A haven't worked in the past.  Given a platter transfer rate of 20+ J MBytes/sec, the difference between a 2 KB transfer and a 64 KB transfer isI under 3 ms.  So if 64 KB transfers took 35 ms., then 2 KB transfers would G take about 32 ms.  Boosting disk I/O rates from 29 per second to 32 per E second:  not exactly what you're looking for in your statement above.h  F (In the case of the Unix file system used to obtain some of the OracleE numbers, the boost might be significantly higher.  But that's becausepI old-style Unix file systems have file contiguity optimization that variesuL from non-existent to lousy:  the result has no relevance to VMS or any other/ environment with competent placement policies.)e   >0H > > quoted elsewhere) out of a disk if it takes 1/30th of a second to do each > > one? >= >uF > > The transfer overhead certainly doesn't explain it:  the streamingJ > > data rate off the platter is a simple function of rotational speed and trackwI > > capacity, neither of which is subject to debate (unless you return to  the F > > days of interleaving or scatter the blocks around as old Unix file systemst	 > > did).. > >sI > > However, the point you continue to overlook is that the issue here iseG > > *sequential* (streaming) performance, not random-access performancen (whichJ > > the above numbers apply to).  For streaming performance, only a singleE > > initial seek (and rotational wait) occurs, followed by continuousd transferL > > at whatever rate the disk can sustain (unless you're using IDE, as notedL > > previously).  Thus the transfer time for each 127 blocks after the first > > request is 2 - 3 ms. > >o >o: > Yeah.. I did overlook that .. on purpose.  Well actually< > did I overlook that?!???  Of course I didn't.  You have me: > believing I overlooked something.  What I did do is drop; > a link into a reference.  THAT is what THAT document says0> > AND it is also MY experience (I/O rate tails off as I/O size
 > increases).I  C Your experience is qualitatively correct.  Unfortunately, this is arH quantitative discussion, and your experience seems grossly inadequate to address it.   -   I/O rate tails off... I got fewer and fewert= > I/Os (random in my case but I purposely chose SEQUENTIAL as : > a reference point as it is better.  Hoping to argue from? > the greater to the lesser and leaving the lesser out.  As yout; > see from that document, the random rate is near 60 ms for  > UFS):s  J Which, as I noted, has zero relevance to a discussion about VMS I/O rates.   >,@ > http://oradoc.photo.net/ora8doc/DOC/server803/A54638_01/io.htm >d= > I think we should drop them an email and let them know theyn: > have it all wrong.  Imagine them taking the time to make, > such pretty graphs and they are worthless!  I Actually, their Unix file system numbers make sense:  old-style Unix file E systems suck at I/O operations larger than the system block size.  SoeI they're worthless only in the context of this discussion (which is, aftert9 all, what I started out by saying a couple of posts ago).F     But couldn't the issueC > be by the time it receives the next commands or command the heads  > moved?  : That's called random access performance - covered already.  9   Or are we to assume commands are streamed and every I/Ot% > will be on the next block boundary?e  H That's called streaming access (and is how OSs do it) - covered already.     Surely we aren't overlooking > anything are we?  I That's the possibility that the discussion you pointed to was specific ton@ Oracle table access, rather than anything related to the current discussion - covered above.n  *   Besides, wouldn't all I/O sizes have the > same response time?)   No:  covered already.(  )   Why would the graphs grow on SEQUENTIALtC > reads as reads are streamed?  I/O size shouldn't effect anything,a; > or are there buffer setup issues OR I/O completion issues = > where the target OS verifies it got a good I/O?  NT doesn'tt> > do anything like verify an I/O does it?  Maybe we should ask8 > about some of these things when we drop them an email.  H No, you should just learn a great deal more about how storage and the OSD mechanisms that manage it work before attempting to do more than ask questions about it.f   ...,  5 > Yes.. 25-40 MByte/sec with Ultra III and whatnot.../  H IIRC plain old Ultra Wide supports 40 MBytes/second.  And even Fast WideJ supports 20 MBytes/second, which on a per-disk basis ain't too bad (and ifK you insist on economizing by placing multiple disks on the bus, then, well, I you get what you paid for).  If you're saying that the HSx has a back-end K bottleneck at the disk (e.g., supports only one Fast Wide bus) - does it? - J and the configuration in question is thus HSx-limited, then the mystery is6 solved (but so trivially as to be kind of a let-down).   - bill   >o > Robm >c   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jul 2000 01:05:49 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)! Subject: Re: GS140 write I/O wally+ Message-ID: <Z3tGcpbrNXx0@eisner.decus.org>s  X In article <Yq0geS7gThW0@eisner.decus.org>, young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) writes:z > In article <eDff5.8057$RG6.682993@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "John Nixon" <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> writes: >  >> gJ >> I have an Alpha 8400 with four CIPCAs attached to a farm full of HSJ52sN >> supporting disks.  I also have 6 scsi adapters supporting twelve (two each)D >> DLT 7000s.  When we do BACKUP from disk to tape, the best thruputG >> I have achieved is almost exactly 25 MB/sec.  I was glad to see thato >> however,t& >> and thought I was doing a good job. >> n > ? > 	[In hindsight.. big assumption on my part is you are lookingo> > 	at backing up a large database.  If you have tons of little4 > 	files, you would introduce seek issues too, etc.] > C > 	I saw a chart just two days ago and wished I had saved the link.0 > A > 	It shows that regardless of technology (it was a bit dated, noR@ > 	fibre channel info) the best you can expect is 80-85% of peak& > 	bandwidth, noting SCSI, CI, FDDI... > A > 	I recall it showed something like 11-12 MByte/sec for CI usinggB > 	80-85% as a rule of thumb.  So with 4 CIPCAs to 4 Star Couplers: > 	(you do have 4 star couplers?) you would be looking at   > 	44-48 MByte/sec best case...  > F > 	Question then is do you have your file striped across 8 controllersB > 	(with A and B leg active in 4 Star Couplers you can get at mostD > 	8 controllers talking)?  The devices hanging off the controllers,A > 	mirrorsets?  Striped mirrors?  Single disks?   If single disksi= > 	here is a good chart that shows how long a 127 block Read y	 > 	takes:  > @ > http://oradoc.photo.net/ora8doc/DOC/server803/A54638_01/io.htm > ? > 	So if a 127 or so block takes 35 ms to SEQUENTIAL read (notek= > 	very Unix centric nature in doc above but my experience is 8 > 	that VMS isn't magic and can't make disks talk faster/ > 	than what other OSes can :-) and your doing iG > 	what most of us do is BACKUP/BLOCK_SIZE=65534 or so you can see you r5 > 	can only get 29 * 127 blocks/sec or 1.8 MByte/sec.  > 	(2048 blocks = 1 MByte).  l    < 	Oversight on my part here... Going back to the chart in the? 	URL above, a 127/128 block I/O is 64 KB in size, you get aboutBB 	57-60 per second of those .. 59 * 127 blocks/sec = 3.6 MByte/sec. 	t9 	With 8 controllers kept active by 4 CI cards, 8 * 3.6 isa7 	around the 25 MByte/sec you are seeing.  3.6 is doable/: 	because it comes in under the 4.7 MByte/sec of the HSJ50.   	How's that look?n   				Robe   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:05:18 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young). Subject: I/O Size and I/Os per second overview+ Message-ID: <6NK90P1LS45I@eisner.decus.org>   : 	Using my new environmental destroying friend Google helps& 	in this quest to sort out I/O issues.  .> http://www.dell.com/us/en/k12/topics/vectors_1999-fcraidpe.htm  .                                Data Throughput  K For I/Os that are smaller than 4 kilobytes (KB) in size, more resources are M used to process the I/O request than are used to transfer the requested data.cK As the I/O size increases, however, the resources required to transfer datauJ become the more significant factor. For example, a one-block (1/2-KB) dataN transfer to disk may require 8 milliseconds (ms) of seek and rotation time andM only 0.125 ms of data transfer time, while a 64-KB data transfer may have the)J same seek and rotation time (8 ms) but require 16 ms to transfer the data.  .                                I/Os per Second  J The number of IOPS is a measure of overall I/O efficiency. IOPS values areL computed for each component of the storage system over a specified period ofL time. I/O size is an important factor in the overall measure. Small I/Os areJ processed faster than large I/Os, and therefore will produce a higher IOPS value than large I/Os.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:16:36 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)3 Subject: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?O+ Message-ID: <hNOk6DhVGuJR@eisner.decus.org>   R In article <8lq3om$3v6$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  L >> > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how > doL >> > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you've7 >>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^r@ >> Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted are >> based on 2-4K I/Os. > I > Rob, Rob, Rob:  will you *ever* pay attention.  Please re-read the nexti > paragraph you quote below. >     ; 	Doesn't have to do with paying attention.  Maybe I have itn! 	right and you are wrong.  Maybe?     I > On second thought, I'd better explain it for you, because such requests C > haven't worked in the past.  Given a platter transfer rate of 20+lL > MBytes/sec, the difference between a 2 KB transfer and a 64 KB transfer isK > under 3 ms.  So if 64 KB transfers took 35 ms., then 2 KB transfers would I > take about 32 ms.  Boosting disk I/O rates from 29 per second to 32 pertG > second:  not exactly what you're looking for in your statement above.  >   7 	How do you get 100 I/Os per second?  Use smaller I/Os:I  .                                I/Os per Second  J The number of IOPS is a measure of overall I/O efficiency. IOPS values areL computed for each component of the storage system over a specified period ofL time. I/O size is an important factor in the overall measure. Small I/Os areJ processed faster than large I/Os, and therefore will produce a higher IOPS value than large I/Os.   	Got it?   				Robh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:44:33 -0400r' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?h( Message-ID: <8lq6sa$6an$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagee% news:hNOk6DhVGuJR@eisner.decus.org...yL > In article <8lq3om$3v6$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:h >eJ > >> > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just howm > > doG > >> > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers thati you've9 > >>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^sB > >> Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted are > >> based on 2-4K I/Os. > >zK > > Rob, Rob, Rob:  will you *ever* pay attention.  Please re-read the nextt > > paragraph you quote below. > >r >e >t< > Doesn't have to do with paying attention.  Maybe I have it" > right and you are wrong.  Maybe?  H Not a chance.  But if you really are paying attention, you need to start working on comprehension.a   >a >aK > > On second thought, I'd better explain it for you, because such requestssE > > haven't worked in the past.  Given a platter transfer rate of 20+eK > > MBytes/sec, the difference between a 2 KB transfer and a 64 KB transfer> isG > > under 3 ms.  So if 64 KB transfers took 35 ms., then 2 KB transfersc wouldlK > > take about 32 ms.  Boosting disk I/O rates from 29 per second to 32 persI > > second:  not exactly what you're looking for in your statement above.o > >i > 8 > How do you get 100 I/Os per second?  Use smaller I/Os: >r0 >                                I/Os per Second > L > The number of IOPS is a measure of overall I/O efficiency. IOPS values areK > computed for each component of the storage system over a specified periodo ofJ > time. I/O size is an important factor in the overall measure. Small I/Os arevL > processed faster than large I/Os, and therefore will produce a higher IOPS > value than large I/Os.  H My point, which you have once again failed to grasp (see 'comprehension'I above) is that with the smallest I/O request you can legally generate youuJ won't get more than about 32 I/Os per second from a disk that transfers atE 20+ MBytes/second and takes 35 ms. to perform an average 64 KB random  request.  L In other words (as I said before), quantitatively you haven't a clue what is@ going on:  try to develop one before continuing this discussion.   - bill   > 	 > Got it?o >n > Robe >v   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:54:01 -0400e+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>t7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?l1 Message-ID: <39806929.12DEB13C@trailing-edge.com>o   Bill Todd wrote:J > My point, which you have once again failed to grasp (see 'comprehension'K > above) is that with the smallest I/O request you can legally generate you>L > won't get more than about 32 I/Os per second from a disk that transfers atG > 20+ MBytes/second and takes 35 ms. to perform an average 64 KB random 
 > request. > N > In other words (as I said before), quantitatively you haven't a clue what isB > going on:  try to develop one before continuing this discussion.  = I think *your* quantities are the ones out of whack, Bill.  Ie? regularly see 150-200 I/O's per second on an old Alpha 3000/300tB sitting on my desk.  I susepct the numbers that you're pulling out= of your hat are something substantially different than what'sh& being measured by VMS's $MONITOR DISK.  A My detailed configuration: Alpha 3000/300, 72 Mbytes RAM, Seagaten> ST45150's (7200 RPM) hooked to the on-board SCSI host adapter.E I just did a DIR [...]*.UUU from my home directory and saw an averaget( I/O rate of 155 with a peak rate of 212.  C What system are you using, Bill, to generate your supposed limit ofg= 32 I/O's per second?  I've seen numbers higher than that on ai 11/780 with UDA50's and RA82's.t   Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:21:37 -0400h' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?m( Message-ID: <8lq91r$8gp$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message+ news:39806929.12DEB13C@trailing-edge.com...e > Bill Todd wrote:L > > My point, which you have once again failed to grasp (see 'comprehension'I > > above) is that with the smallest I/O request you can legally generate  youeK > > won't get more than about 32 I/Os per second from a disk that transferss atI > > 20+ MBytes/second and takes 35 ms. to perform an average 64 KB random  > > request. > >1H > > In other words (as I said before), quantitatively you haven't a clue what isgD > > going on:  try to develop one before continuing this discussion. >n? > I think *your* quantities are the ones out of whack, Bill.  I A > regularly see 150-200 I/O's per second on an old Alpha 3000/300eD > sitting on my desk.  I susepct the numbers that you're pulling out? > of your hat are something substantially different than what's1( > being measured by VMS's $MONITOR DISK.  L With a reasonably fast disk, it's not too hard to see 200 I/Os per second ifL the head is not moving much (i.e., if they're all very closely spaced on theL disk):  since at 7200 rpm half a rev takes 4.17 ms., if you stay on-cylinderK you could average 240 I/Os per second (IIRC track-switching takes about 0.5II ms., so it's usually masked by the average rotational latency anyway), ifbJ you stay close enough to on-cylinder that most seeks take only a couple ofL milliseconds (given that a single-cylinder seek takes on the order of 1 ms.,L including head-settling time, that gives you a moderate range, though likelyL at most a few percent of the disk) that won't decrease this number too much,J and if your disk is so up-to-its-ears in requests that a significant queueJ forms then you might even *exceed* that number (since the disk has a largeL number of requests from which to select the best-positioned one each time) -B though of course your per-request *latency* goes through the roof.  I None of which applies to the normal criteria with which "I/Os per second"-J figures are generated:  an average (1/3 stroke) seek, plus an average (1/2G rotation) delay to get to the desired data on the track, plus a usually L negligible transfer latency (at 20+ MBytes/second, for example, transferringJ 4 KB takes under 200 microseconds).  In other words, an average (smallish)E random access to a fully-populated disk performed in the absence of a L request queue at the disk (e.g., as would happen with any sequential process" having exclusive use of the disk).   >uC > My detailed configuration: Alpha 3000/300, 72 Mbytes RAM, Seagateg@ > ST45150's (7200 RPM) hooked to the on-board SCSI host adapter.G > I just did a DIR [...]*.UUU from my home directory and saw an averageu* > I/O rate of 155 with a peak rate of 212. >mE > What system are you using, Bill, to generate your supposed limit ofl > 32 I/O's per second?  K You missed the fore-going context:  35 ms. per 64 KB (sequential, but I leteE that go for the moment) I/O was the figure *Rob* was quoting from theuI on-line source to which he provided a pointer.  I was simply pointing outfK that if one accepted that figure (which one should not - it clearly doesn'thK apply to the matters under discussion here, nor to any competently-designed?J access mechanism anywhere else that uses modern disks) as the cost of a 64K KB access then, given contemporary disk characteristics, the disk could notsL (even satisfying smaller requests) exceed about 32 I/O operations per second+ (that's called reductio ad absurdum, IIRC).r   - bill  )   I've seen numbers higher than that on ao! > 11/780 with UDA50's and RA82's.y >a > Tim.   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:40:04 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?t6 Message-ID: <8lqa7k$jm6$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>   Somebody wrote:o
 : My point...t   Somebody else wrote: : I think...    G   Anybody wanna take some time out from this "I/O rate" discussion for  D   a (virtual) libation of individual choice, as well as (virtually) G   sampling some prefered sweet/fat/chocolate/salty snack(s)?  I do. :-)t  D   Me, I could go for a good ale and some corn chips and salsa right D   about now, but might just settle for a nice dinner.  I'd offer to I   debate the relative merits of my choices in ale and chips (or dinner),  E   but that would be _way_ off-topic...  Such a discussion might also s8   reduce the relative I/O rates for ale and chips... :-)  F   All this discussion of food...  I'm outta here... Time for dinner...    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:50:41 -0400n+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>n7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?u1 Message-ID: <39807671.27C8E01A@trailing-edge.com>h   Bill Todd wrote: > 8 > Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message- > news:39806929.12DEB13C@trailing-edge.com...eA > > I think *your* quantities are the ones out of whack, Bill.  I/C > > regularly see 150-200 I/O's per second on an old Alpha 3000/300 F > > sitting on my desk.  I susepct the numbers that you're pulling outA > > of your hat are something substantially different than what'su* > > being measured by VMS's $MONITOR DISK. > [...]tK > None of which applies to the normal criteria with which "I/Os per second"OL > figures are generated:  an average (1/3 stroke) seek, plus an average (1/2 > rotation)   A Sorry Bill, I *thought* I was posting to comp.os.vms.  I see that ? you've now claimed this newsgroup to be "the world according tohB Bill", where you redefine commonly-used VMS terms to mean whatever' makes your previous statements correct.o   Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:06:52 -0400c' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>b7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them? ( Message-ID: <8lqbms$ak6$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message+ news:39807671.27C8E01A@trailing-edge.com...s > Bill Todd wrote: > >-: > > Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message/ > > news:39806929.12DEB13C@trailing-edge.com...iC > > > I think *your* quantities are the ones out of whack, Bill.  I-E > > > regularly see 150-200 I/O's per second on an old Alpha 3000/300oH > > > sitting on my desk.  I susepct the numbers that you're pulling outC > > > of your hat are something substantially different than what's0, > > > being measured by VMS's $MONITOR DISK.	 > > [...]wE > > None of which applies to the normal criteria with which "I/Os pera second""I > > figures are generated:  an average (1/3 stroke) seek, plus an averagep (1/2
 > > rotation)C >aC > Sorry Bill, I *thought* I was posting to comp.os.vms.  I see that A > you've now claimed this newsgroup to be "the world according todD > Bill", where you redefine commonly-used VMS terms to mean whatever) > makes your previous statements correct.t  H Since you completely misunderstood the preceding discussion, I suppose IJ shouldn't be surprised at that attitude.  It's too bad:  my impression wasL that comp.os.vms *used* to be a place where people who had no idea what they; were talking about at least could recognize people who did.o   - bill   >a > Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jul 2000 00:54:32 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?S+ Message-ID: <kwzvSbaUAGhW@eisner.decus.org>o  R In article <8lq91r$8gp$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   > M > You missed the fore-going context:  35 ms. per 64 KB (sequential, but I let G > that go for the moment) I/O was the figure *Rob* was quoting from therK > on-line source to which he provided a pointer.  I was simply pointing outpM > that if one accepted that figure (which one should not - it clearly doesn'thM > apply to the matters under discussion here, nor to any competently-designedkL > access mechanism anywhere else that uses modern disks) as the cost of a 64M > KB access then, given contemporary disk characteristics, the disk could notSN > (even satisfying smaller requests) exceed about 32 I/O operations per second- > (that's called reductio ad absurdum, IIRC).  >   > 	That chart shows 35 ms for 127 KB transfer.  A 64 KB transfer< 	takes 16 ms as the Dell reference points out and the OracleC 	reference shows.  My first post contained an error as you spotted.1@ 	Divide by two error.  127 blocks makes for a 64 KB I/O , double6 	the number of I/Os per second but halve the I/O size.   				RobU   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jul 2000 01:11:11 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?4+ Message-ID: <0Pa5+lkQiZg4@eisner.decus.org>s  _ In article <39806929.12DEB13C@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:H > Bill Todd wrote:K >> My point, which you have once again failed to grasp (see 'comprehension'0L >> above) is that with the smallest I/O request you can legally generate youM >> won't get more than about 32 I/Os per second from a disk that transfers atnH >> 20+ MBytes/second and takes 35 ms. to perform an average 64 KB random >> request.  >> /O >> In other words (as I said before), quantitatively you haven't a clue what is C >> going on:  try to develop one before continuing this discussion.s > ? > I think *your* quantities are the ones out of whack, Bill.  IhA > regularly see 150-200 I/O's per second on an old Alpha 3000/300aD > sitting on my desk.  I susepct the numbers that you're pulling out? > of your hat are something substantially different than what'sn( > being measured by VMS's $MONITOR DISK. > C > My detailed configuration: Alpha 3000/300, 72 Mbytes RAM, Seagatei@ > ST45150's (7200 RPM) hooked to the on-board SCSI host adapter.G > I just did a DIR [...]*.UUU from my home directory and saw an average * > I/O rate of 155 with a peak rate of 212. >   = 	I'll bet those are one or two block I/Os.  See another post.f  , 	Wanna see your I/O rate progressively drop?  6 	$ backup/block=8192   disk:[...]*.*;* nla0:t.bck/save6 	$ backup/block=32767  disk:[...]*.*;* nla0:t.bck/save6 	$ backup/block=65535  disk:[...]*.*;* nla0:t.bck/save   				Robh   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:16:32 -0400:' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>(7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them? ( Message-ID: <8lr1bp$1n0$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagei% news:kwzvSbaUAGhW@eisner.decus.org... L > In article <8lq91r$8gp$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:> >y > >pK > > You missed the fore-going context:  35 ms. per 64 KB (sequential, but I  let I > > that go for the moment) I/O was the figure *Rob* was quoting from thesI > > on-line source to which he provided a pointer.  I was simply pointing  outyG > > that if one accepted that figure (which one should not - it clearly  doesn't : > > apply to the matters under discussion here, nor to any competently-designedK > > access mechanism anywhere else that uses modern disks) as the cost of a  64K > > KB access then, given contemporary disk characteristics, the disk coulda not I > > (even satisfying smaller requests) exceed about 32 I/O operations pers second/ > > (that's called reductio ad absurdum, IIRC).  > >2 > ? > That chart shows 35 ms for 127 KB transfer.  A 64 KB transfero= > takes 16 ms as the Dell reference points out and the OraclelD > reference shows.  My first post contained an error as you spotted.A > Divide by two error.  127 blocks makes for a 64 KB I/O , doubleO7 > the number of I/Os per second but halve the I/O size.l  E Nope - you still have no clue, and won't until you figure out how theaL numbers relate to each other.  For a start, the number of I/Os per second isI nowhere nearly inversely proportional to the I/O size until the I/O sizes  reach megabytes in size.  K You can also ignore the Dell numbers (which were specifically offered as an-I *example*, but happen to be close to an order of magnitude lower than thebI transfer rates of current disks):  a 64 KB transfer takes between 2 and 3m ms. on modern disks, not 16 ms.i   - bill   >o > Rob  >u   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jul 2000 01:19:34 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?e+ Message-ID: <xBAe+$eEhdNO@eisner.decus.org>a  R In article <8lq6sa$6an$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > 7 > Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message ' > news:hNOk6DhVGuJR@eisner.decus.org... M >> In article <8lq3om$3v6$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 	 > writes:  >>K >> >> > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, justt > howa >> > dooH >> >> > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that > you've: >> >>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^C >> >> Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted aren >> >> based on 2-4K I/Os.  >> >L >> > Rob, Rob, Rob:  will you *ever* pay attention.  Please re-read the next >> > paragraph you quote below.a >> > >> >>= >> Doesn't have to do with paying attention.  Maybe I have it # >> right and you are wrong.  Maybe?  > J > Not a chance.  But if you really are paying attention, you need to start > working on comprehension.n >   / 	Gee, haven't had so much fun in quite a while.o  6 	In the larger context of things you wrote this and my 	reply is interspersed:   L > 2 - 3 ms., for a total of 10 - 14 ms.  Add a millisecond or so for gettingM > the command through the SCSI adapter and at most a few hundred microsecondseL > for OS processing and the result is 11 - 15 ms. - which is consistent withK > enough real-world performance results I've seen that I have no hesitationeL > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how doI > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you'veh9                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     'G         Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted are  o         based on 2-4K I/Os.   K > quoted elsewhere) out of a disk if it takes 1/30th of a second to do each5 > one?  7 	At which point, you try to deflect things but don't dos 	well.    > 	How do you get 100 IOPS out of a disk?  Use smaller I/Os.  If8 	your I/O size is 127 KB , you won't get 100 IOPS out of 	a 7200 RPM disk, nor 10K.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:11:31 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>m7 Subject: Re: I/Os per second, how do you increase them?m( Message-ID: <8lr4iu$46r$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in messagea% news:xBAe+$eEhdNO@eisner.decus.org...pL > In article <8lq6sa$6an$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:> > >o9 > > Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message ) > > news:hNOk6DhVGuJR@eisner.decus.org... 9 > >> In article <8lq3om$3v6$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s > > writes:q > >>H > >> >> > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just > > hows	 > >> > do.J > >> >> > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that
 > > you've< > >> >>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^E > >> >> Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted aree > >> >> based on 2-4K I/Os.  > >> >I > >> > Rob, Rob, Rob:  will you *ever* pay attention.  Please re-read theA next! > >> > paragraph you quote below.T > >> > > >> > >>? > >> Doesn't have to do with paying attention.  Maybe I have it.% > >> right and you are wrong.  Maybe?v > >tL > > Not a chance.  But if you really are paying attention, you need to start > > working on comprehension.t > >  >I0 > Gee, haven't had so much fun in quite a while. >o7 > In the larger context of things you wrote this and my- > reply is interspersed: >eF > > 2 - 3 ms., for a total of 10 - 14 ms.  Add a millisecond or so for gettingjB > > the command through the SCSI adapter and at most a few hundred microsecondsI > > for OS processing and the result is 11 - 15 ms. - which is consistents withB > > enough real-world performance results I've seen that I have no
 hesitationK > > whatsoever in presenting them as established fact.  After all, just how  doK > > you expect to get around 100 I/O operations/second (numbers that you've 6 >                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^G >         Simple.  Use smaller I/Os and most numbers you see quoted areo >         based on 2-4K I/Os.o >rH > > quoted elsewhere) out of a disk if it takes 1/30th of a second to do each > > one? > 8 > At which point, you try to deflect things but don't do > well.*  D The trouble is, when you don't understand something, you assume it'sF irrelevant.  And quantitative analysis of this situation appears to be$ completely beyond your capabilities.   > ; > How do you get 100 IOPS out of a disk?  Use smaller I/Os.'  H The point, Rob, was that if your contention was valid (which it was not)H that 64 KB I/O operations took 35 ms., then you could reduce them to 512J bytes and it would do no more than improve your IOPS rate from about 29 toI about 32 - nowhere near 100.  (And now that you've changed your number to4L 127 KB for the request size, I'll point out that if a 127 KB request took 35J ms., then reducing it to 512 bytes would improve your IOPS rate from about) 29 to about 35 - still nowhere near 100.)a  L That was not deflection, it was an attempt to point out just how absurd yourK contention was by showing that it was inconsistent with other numbers (80 -gL 100+ IOPS) you yourself have been quoting lately (and *those* numbers aren't far removed from reality).  I I'm not sure why you seem to believe that disk performance is a matter oftJ opinion (and hence endlessly arguable) rather than measurement.  But untilA you can understand and apply the measured performance of disks to I relationships such as that of IOPS vs. transfer size discussed above, youp  have nothing to contribute here.   - bill     If9 > your I/O size is 127 KB , you won't get 100 IOPS out ofk > a 7200 RPM disk, nor 10K.i >  > Robo >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:16:59 GMTaL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: Interbase 6.0 released as Open Source8 Message-ID: <009EDB5D.CA2858AA@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  g In article <8loh2i$rv4$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.com.nospaam> writes:i >uM >"Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wroteR> >in message news:009EDA8F.DC0826C3@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...L >> In article <8lmu3q$ns8$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan >Henderson) writes:e< >> >Well, Interbase 6 has been released as Open Source under9 >> >a license very similar to the one in which Mozilla isp >> >released, I understand.f >> > >> >You can find out about it( >> >1 >> >  http://www.borland.com/interbase/index.htmlh >> >	 >> >here.s >> >= >> >I've downloaded it, and some of you might be glad to hear 9 >> >that it doesn't include the dreaded configure script.( >> >> >> >I understand that the code is very portable.  I wonder how: >> >hard it would be to get this going on OpenVMS?  Didn't9 >> >someone say that this was based on something that waso >> >originally on OpenVMS? >>K >> Well, to be precise, Interbase from Borland/Inprise used to be Interbaser >fromtM >> Interbase, and before that it was Galaxy from Groton Database Systems, andu >theL >> internal design of Galaxy was - as I understand it - Jim Starkey's design >forM >> Rdb/Eln, rejected - he felt - for political rather than technical reasons.  >>K >> It was certainly multiplatform from the get-go, but I don't recollect ifO >> VMS was involved. >>	 >> --Alanm >> >s? >I have used Interbase on OpenVMS.  In fact I have a older demoo> >copy still loaded on a Vaxstation.  Interbase was at one time; >DSRI compliant.  DSRI is a low level interface to Rdb.  Ins; >addition the names of the system tables all begin with thee: >letters RDB$.  If I remember correctly, with a really old< >version of Interbase and Rdb, you could define a logical or@ >two and use Rdb tools to access an Interbase database, and vice >versa >e >rD I think this had a lot to do with Starkey (the original architect ofD Datatrieve, responsible for wombats and yacht) having designed DSRI.   -- Alanh    O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056-M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210oO ===============================================================================0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:04:38 GMT:2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>2 Subject: Re: Interbase 6.0 released as Open Source4 Message-ID: <ae3g5.81$mO3.14794@typhoon.aracnet.com>  0 Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote:C > I'd sure love to see Hobbyists using something like this too.  InoC > the Linux world, Hobbyists are called developers and they do someo > great stuff.  J I'd have a go at it, except for the slight matter of time...  I got what IK consider to be a very cool little program ready to start testing and then IeI ran out of time about 2 months ago, just as I was ready to run it for therM first time.  I've not touched it since :^(  The only thing I'm using VMS for eB at the moment is a notepad. :^(  Real life has its advantages and  disadvantages :^)   K Note, while I'd be willing to have a go at it if I had time, I doubt I'd betJ successful.  My C is so rusty it isn't funny!  So it sure would be nice is8 some skilled individual with extra time gave it a go :^)   			Zane-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:13:17 -0500m, From: "Glenn C. Everhart" <Everhart@GCE.com>8 Subject: Re: is there a database available for VMS hobby' Message-ID: <39806DAD.3CF2FD4D@GCE.com>h  1 There are a few dbms systems that are available. s8 DBAG is a dBase III sorta-clone dbms for example. RIM is: an adequate single user dbms (also available interfaced to% AnalytiCalc spreadsheet as Analyrim).a  9 There are a number of simpler packages around also. For an; good multi-user dbms, I suspect porting PostgreSQL might be ; one of the better alternatives. It is related to universityk: Ingres; there was (maybe is sorta: CA got it) a commercial, Ingres that at one time at least ran on VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:46:45 GMT 2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>8 Subject: Re: is there a database available for VMS hobby4 Message-ID: <FR3g5.86$mO3.15120@typhoon.aracnet.com>  + Glenn C. Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> wrote:a3 > There are a few dbms systems that are available. c: > DBAG is a dBase III sorta-clone dbms for example. RIM is< > an adequate single user dbms (also available interfaced to' > AnalytiCalc spreadsheet as Analyrim).t  K Anyone have any real pointers to these?  I'm assuming RIM isn't part of the L Analyrim package.  It looks like the only place they might be are on some ofL the DECUS tapes, which brings up another question, is there any kind of list" of what is on the DECUS VMS tapes?  ; > There are a number of simpler packages around also. For a-= > good multi-user dbms, I suspect porting PostgreSQL might ben= > one of the better alternatives. It is related to university < > Ingres; there was (maybe is sorta: CA got it) a commercial. > Ingres that at one time at least ran on VMS.  I I actually took a look at PostgreSQL or whatever it's called these days a-E few months ago...  Only I can't seem to remember what I found...  How J irritating!  I know the source is still in my user directory.  I also was L thinking mySQL might be a candidate.  Overall though I think it sounds as ifI Interbase might be the best candidate since it has at least run on VMS att one point in its life.   			Zaneo   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:57:33 +0200m From: Cor Mom <cor@momss.nl>! Subject: Looking for VMS positiono( Message-ID: <3980942D.74B85C2C@momss.nl>  > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>5 Hello, this message is special for the Netherlands...)L <p>Ik ben op zoek naar een nieuw opdracht per 1 augustus 2000 in een OpenVMS# omgeving. De opdracht mag inhouden: J <p>Ontwikkelen en onderhouden van applicaties (real-time, databases), evt.O fixed price, t.b.v. productieautomatisering, data aquisitie systemen, equipmenttA besturing, communication systems of database informatie systemen. A <p>Mijn CV kan worden gedownload van: www.momss.nl/cv.doc (Word). 
 <p>Cor Mom
 <br>&nbsp; <br>&nbsp;</html>    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:30:56 -0400+* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>! Subject: Re: Memory & CPU Support - Message-ID: <39808DF0.B290A076@tsoft-inc.com>    "Bart Z. Lederman" wrote:n > : > Actually coming up with an application that will keep 32@ > processors busy at the same time is another matter altogether.@ > I would be very interested to hear from anyone who thinks they? > have such an application.  We have seen applications that uses= > up to 14 processors on existing platforms, but I'm not sure  > they'd scale to 32.b  P Well, to take this to the extreme, I think I could design an application to keepK 32 processors busy, but, it would be designed to do just that, and probably 6 wouldn't have much (any) real world applicability. :-)   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 11:33:32 PDT* From: abuse@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie)) Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20  $99o! Message-ID: <w8PldDuSnR0d@flying>   0 In article <so040drr3j1164@corp.supernews.com>, / "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com> writes:e  & > Please see US Constitution Article 1  ? Please see "Miss Manners' Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium"/& (ISBN 0-88687-551-X) by Judith Martin.   -- aB --  Alan E. Frisbie             Frisbie "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com@ --  Flying Disk Systems, Inc.   Abuse "AT" Flying-Disk "DOT" Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:51:46 -0400R* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>) Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20  $99>- Message-ID: <398092D2.9270404E@tsoft-inc.com>i   Wayne Sewell wrote:a > X > In article <sntok0ta3j111@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com> writes: > > Yep> > >t > > We're doing it again > >t > M > Yes, if you mean posting advertisements to a technical newsgroup, again and 7 > again and again and again and again and again and ...s  6 So, at the time I'm writing this, the score stands at:  = 	1 - announcement of some rather cheap prices for some old HWh 	1 - defense of original post & 	2 - rather neutral posts on the topic 	3 - against the original post 	4 - for the original post  L Some of the above actually could have been classified a bit differently, butO hey, it's my post.  In any case, including my comments, 11 posts to comp.os.vms H that wouldn't have existed if the first was ignored by those who weren'tK interested.  As for my stance, I'm sure there are still a few who'd like anaO inexpensive home system, and maybe even a few who'd consider them for something  else.c  > 11 unneeded posts.  Once again, what's the definition of spam?   Dave   -- r4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:13:10 -0400 % From: "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com>O( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99/ Message-ID: <so0uapaa3j1150@corp.supernews.com>s  # Oops - I meant the first ammendment-  H I am a Brit married to an American (Yank) in the USA - So I never had toE read the thing  - just happen to read a book on US Constitutional lawn  4 But as to the first ammendment - or Bill of Rights -  J It is my right to speak out, is it not?- Ergo -Government cannot implement3 restrictions on me from posting ads once in a whilecK As Government is the ONLY police on the internet (though it is not meant to@F be), I have the right to do as I do, as long as it does not affect the+ rights of the other individuals - right ?!?o  ; My postings do not threaten - "You must read this or else!"h& They do not encroach on your liberties  
 An analogy>>>y  H It is like going into a convenience store, and in plain view you can see Pornographic materialt  * YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK INSIDE THE MAGAZINE  7 Same goes for our posts !   My 2 cents / tuppence worthe   Davide      7 Bill McLaughlin <mcbill20@hotmail.com> wrote in message^/ news:F156yiZEQE95pfy6Rkx0000bba0@hotmail.com...lL > Hello all. I have a suggestion. First though, let me say that I doubt thatE > anyone here hates spam more than I do. With that said, I am kind ofh neutral>L > on the Island Computer ads. While I generally hate ads of any kind, I haveK > to admit that most of what they've adverstised I have been interested in.o > L > Here's my suggestion for Island Computer-- why not create a list just likeK > comp.os.vms where those who are interested can subscribe. I for one don't F > worry at all about sending my real personal or work email address toK > companies who don't sell it to others. I very rarely get any type of spamf atK > my main personal address and I am subscribed to several commercial lists:o% > ammonman.com, x10.com, oracle, etc.e >t > Just my .02. >hH > So far, I don't have any problem with the Island messages, but I wouldD > definitely hate to have comp.os.vms filled up with every VAX/Alpha dealer's > ads. >, > Bill McLaughlin  >e > >  > >-----Original Message-----eG > >From: Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- [mailto:system@SendSpamHere.ORG]^( > >Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 8:20 AM > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ > >Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99  > >u > >eE > >In article <so040drr3j1164@corp.supernews.com>, "Island Computers"n > ><sales@islandco.com> writes: 
 > > >Wayne > > >d) > > >Please see US Constitution Article 1O > >tI > >Article 1 of the US Constitution deals with the creation of and powerstF > >of the legislative branch of the government.  How is this relevant? > >-K > >I believe you meant to refer to the first Amendment of the Constitution,lK > >the first ten known as the Bill of Rights.  Again, how is this relevant? K > >This amendment limits the congress (government) from infringing upon therK > >rights of free speech.  It does not limit Wayne from exercising his dis-lK > >dain for your advertisements nor does it limit or restrict you from your  > >practice of posting them. > >.8 > >If you do not know your rights, then you haven't any! > >.K > >That said, this newsgroup is not a billboard for advertising!  From time.L > >to time an occasional ad/announcement will be seen and tolerated, but theK > >perpetual day in and day out SPAMming billboard ads are unwarranted, and C > >unwelcomed by most of the readers and lurkers of this newsgroup.> > >  > >-- 5 > >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001e > >VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn > >s > >s >qJ > ________________________________________________________________________J > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com >o >b   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:47:01 GMT.= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $990 Message-ID: <009EDB61.FC46D1B1@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <so0uapaa3j1150@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com> writes:e$ >Oops - I meant the first ammendment >aI >I am a Brit married to an American (Yank) in the USA - So I never had to F >read the thing  - just happen to read a book on US Constitutional law >I5 >But as to the first ammendment - or Bill of Rights -o >SK >It is my right to speak out, is it not?- Ergo -Government cannot implementn4 >restrictions on me from posting ads once in a whileL >As Government is the ONLY police on the internet (though it is not meant toG >be), I have the right to do as I do, as long as it does not affect thee, >rights of the other individuals - right ?!?  K IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer/Liar/Lawyer/Liar/what-the-hell's-the-difference?),o
 thank God!    < >My postings do not threaten - "You must read this or else!"' >They do not encroach on your liberties0  G If you wrote "You must read this or else!", I still doubt that it wouldeF be violating any applicable law.  If you said something like "Buy fromH us or we'll send Bruno to your door to rearrange your facial features!",$ then I might think that threatening.  F BTW, if you post ads to VMSnet.Employment, I send them spiralling down, the bit toilet but that's a different issue.  h --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:48:34 GMTn2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $994 Message-ID: <6%2g5.79$mO3.14794@typhoon.aracnet.com>  * Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote: > Alan Greig wrote:iH >> I know there are differing views here but we bought four Multias fromJ >> Island for home hobby VMS use at little more than shipping cost and I'dJ >> have never known about this particular source other than via occasional >> postings here.b  H > I have bougth from islandco at two occasions. A disk and a tape-drive.F > They do know what VMS is. Items were in perfect order. Fast shippingE > through Fedex. Good price. No problems. I would definatetly want toe1 > buy from them again, if I need something cheap.   B > They do post offers to comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX sometimes. But it isD > not that often. And the offers are usually relevant and of generalF > interest for the readers. Of everything posted here I would put them > in the more interesting half.S  K I've got to agree with both of these statements.  I've purchased stuff from-L David and found him to be very prompt and helpful.  Besides islandco had the: best price on the 256MB PWS RAM Kit of anywhere I saw :^)   H Personally I veiw all the complaints about his postings as being what isK disruptive!  Think for a minute, he's offering systems that are perfect for"F cheap Hobbyist use for basically nothing.  Yet he's got people flamingL him?!?!?  Give me a break!  They're even being given a power on test, that's3 a lot better than you'll see in most cases on ePay!>  H Yes, at one point quite a while ago David was a bit of an annoyance, butF take a look at his recent postings.  Also take a look at how much he'sL posted in the last 6+ months!  Also note how short he keeps anything that is specifically an ad!f   			Zane>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:25:32 -0500d7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> ( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99- Message-ID: <3980E10C.C61F4ED8@earthlink.net>    Alan Greig wrote:  > 0 > In article <fq5e9yXwi8lC@tachxxsoftxxconsult>,B >   wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell) wrote:= > > In article <sntok0ta3j111@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco"g > <sales@islandco.com> writes:	 > > > Yepi > > >e > > > We're doing it again > > >b > >eE > > Yes, if you mean posting advertisements to a technical newsgroup,  > again ande9 > > again and again and again and again and again and ...e > G > I know there are differing views here but we bought four Multias frompI > Island for home hobby VMS use at little more than shipping cost and I'dfI > have never known about this particular source other than via occasional> > postings here.  ! Well, for what it may be worth...n  D I have some web pages re: Multia. They were getting hits even beforeE Hoff so graciously added them to the OpenVMS FAQ. Presumably, this isRF because I put the keywords "OpenVMS", "Multia" and "Hobbyist" into theH metadata of those web pages so the search-bots could find them. Even the1 re-direct pages on my personal website have them.o  , Don't know if there's a lesson there, but...   --   David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/R   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:22:46 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell)L( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99. Message-ID: <sIoks1QNg9ni@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  Q In article <8lp4q8$9mf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com> writes:10 > In article <fq5e9yXwi8lC@tachxxsoftxxconsult>,B >   wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell) wrote: >>D >> Yes, if you mean posting advertisements to a technical newsgroup, > again andh8 >> again and again and again and again and again and ... > G > I know there are differing views here but we bought four Multias from I > Island for home hobby VMS use at little more than shipping cost and I'ddI > have never known about this particular source other than via occasionalh > postings here.  D occasional?  Island could teach Compaq about the meaning of NonStop.     -- vO ===============================================================================cM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxi: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)vO ===============================================================================bO Otter, on dining with Bluto:"It's perfectly safe if you keep your arms and legsu 			away from his mouth."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:56:58 +0800y- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>V( Subject: Re: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99+ Message-ID: <3980F67A.E097477E@bigpond.com>-   Wayne Sewell wrote:h > S > In article <8lp4q8$9mf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com> writes:82 > > In article <fq5e9yXwi8lC@tachxxsoftxxconsult>,D > >   wayne@tachysoft.xxx.293778.killspam.0223 (Wayne Sewell) wrote: > >>F > >> Yes, if you mean posting advertisements to a technical newsgroup,
 > > again and : > >> again and again and again and again and again and ... > >eI > > I know there are differing views here but we bought four Multias from K > > Island for home hobby VMS use at little more than shipping cost and I'deK > > have never known about this particular source other than via occasionalr > > postings here. > F > occasional?  Island could teach Compaq about the meaning of NonStop. >  > --Q > ===============================================================================tO > Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxi: > http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.htmlM > change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)aQ > ===============================================================================cQ > Otter, on dining with Bluto:"It's perfectly safe if you keep your arms and legsn/ >                         away from his mouth."   D Are you suggesting that maybe Island take over the Stealth Marketing Arm of Compaq?   -- X Regards, Dave.cI -------------------------------------------------------------------------qI David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com_I DBS software at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmmI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon0   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2000 18:12:14 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)91 Subject: Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.comu+ Message-ID: <HVaIVE5cTuuT@eisner.decus.org>a  M In article <01JS9GZII3LE001LSO@VMGW.AGR.CA>, KAPLANSKYM@NCCCOT.AGR.CA writes:t > Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.COM posts: > L >> If interested, you can sign up for free monthly copy of Inform (and other >> OpenVMS info) at:0 >> http://www.compaq.com/inFORM/issues/q-31.html >>  
 >> Regards >>  
 >> Kerry Maino >> Senior Consultant,o >> Compaq Canada >> Professional Services >> Voice : 613-592-4660  >> FAX   : 819-772-7036t  >> Email : kerry.main@compaq.com >> o > B > And what is interesting is that Kerry Main, posting from Compaq H > Canada, supplies a reference that is good "In the United States Only".  8 That way it doesn't come out of _his_ budget :-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:06:44 -0400r+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>y1 Subject: RE: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.comoJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052845C8@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   G'day Marvin !   Hey, its been awhile eh ?   K Since many Customers in Canada alrady receive Inform, I suspect it is not ak' problem, but will find out and confirm.s   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadao Professional Servicesr Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comV       -----Original Message-----@ From: KAPLANSKYM@NCCCOT.AGR.CA [mailto:KAPLANSKYM@NCCCOT.AGR.CA]% Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 1:10 PMr To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc1 Subject: Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.com.     Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.COM posts:  K > If interested, you can sign up for free monthly copy of Inform (and otherr > OpenVMS info) at:e/ > http://www.compaq.com/inFORM/issues/q-31.htmlo > 	 > Regardse >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant, > Compaq Canada  > Professional Servicesa > Voice : 613-592-4660 > FAX   : 819-772-7036 > Email : kerry.main@compaq.coml >   @ And what is interesting is that Kerry Main, posting from Compaq F Canada, supplies a reference that is good "In the United States Only". Thanks.      Marvin Kaplansky Agriculture Canada   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:31:58 GMT % From: hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net>i1 Subject: Re: New SKC Postings on www.acersoft.comr0 Message-ID: <3980B9F6.C6FCB71B@bellatlantic.net>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > @ > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.decus.org.mars> wrote in message' > news:suwseISNZxlE@eisner.decus.org...h= > > In article <Fy67qA.10u@world.std.com>, "Terry C. Shannon"p! > <shannon@world.std.com> writes:t > > >o8 > > > "hg/jb" <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message0 > > > news:397B309A.41FC12DB@bellatlantic.net...7 > > >> Hmm, I seem to recall something about galaxy....eH > > >> wasn't there some work on multiple OS on a single multiple cpu hw > > >> platform?; > > >> something like vms, tru64, linux on the same box....g > > >aN > > > Yup. At DECUS Anaheim 88 they demoed VMS UNIX and Borgware on an 8400. A > >aK > > 88? 98? They had what claimed to be a GS140 running VMS, Tru64, NT, andoJ > > LINUX at Providence a year ago. I was one of the few to notice the CPUJ > > boards in the "GS140" were 5/440 boards and not 6/525s; i.e. it was an > 8400 > > with blue skins. > / > You are right. I was off by a decade. Oops...:3 Wait, when was DEC around? Aren't they still there?m  Ooops too much pdp8 in the 70s!! badbob >  > > K > > > GS-Series box can have up to 8 hard partitions and can run VMS, UNIX,  > andn8 > > > Linux (altho' the latter doth not scale for s**t). > >fB > > FYI, the old GS140 is limited to 3 soft partitions for Galaxy. >  > Yep!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:33:02 GMTe2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>- Subject: Re: Nine(9) VAXstation 3100s on eBayo4 Message-ID: <yM2g5.77$mO3.14331@typhoon.aracnet.com>  0 Charles Gilley <charles.gilley@barco.com> wrote:K > Hmmm, that is an amazing list.  Mind you, some of them might not run, buta > still.  The model 90 forI > 200 bucks (I hope the one bidder is not reading this) has my attention.t > Will the latest version ofN > openVMS run on this, let's see, I think we called it the Cougar, yes?  There > is a model 60 in there forJ > 39.99.  I can fondly recall my old DEC manager fussing about the cost of > these units.....  J The latest version of OpenVMS should run on any 3100 series, as long as itM meets the RAM and disk space requirements, and you can probably fudge those. rC BTW, it looks like those 3100's are only something like a model 30.   L Just wish I could afford that VAXserver 4000-500 that's about to close!  I'd+ love to replace my MicroVAX 3 with that :^)    			Zanen   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:56:34 GMT-: From: brad.mccusker@compaq.remove_this.com (Brad McCusker) Subject: Re: PathWorks question(0 Message-ID: <3980936e.167531147@news.compaq.com>  C On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:06:39 -0400, JM <vmswiz@geonospamcities.com>l wrote:   >Arne: >.I >If you are already running VMS 7.2-1 and Pathworks 6.0C, and TCP/IP 5.0atH >then you probably won't notice any resource differences. My experience, >YMMV. >t   >>	 >			*JM* f >u >Arne Vajhj wrote:s >>  7 >> Any opinion on whether it wpuld be unwise to upgrade:4 >> from PathWorks 6.x to "AdvancedServer for VMS" on* >> a system that is already memory tigth ? >> H >> Arne<  > I agree, the code bases are so similar, there should be littleD difference.  Also, new functionality will roll out first on Adv Ser,@ so, if you want the latest and greatest (Member Server, SPOOLSS,@ Extended character Sets, PCSI, etc), you should get to Adv Serv.             Regards,  
 Brad McCusker / OpenVMS Advanced Server Engineering (PATHWORKS)m Compaq Computer Corporation   3 All comments contained herein are my own and do noto* reflect those of anyone or anything else.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:11:39 -0500n* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>+ Subject: Re[2]: Microvax 3100-10 and 20 $99d- Message-ID: <0033000001526669000002L092*@MHS>i   =0AAlan Greig wrote:H > I know there are differing views here but we bought four Multias from=  H > Island for home hobby VMS use at little more than shipping cost and I= 'dH > have never known about this particular source other than via occasion= al > postings here.  F I have bougth from islandco at two occasions. A disk and a tape-drive.D They do know what VMS is. Items were in perfect order. Fast shippingC through Fedex. Good price. No problems. I would definatetly want tob/ buy from them again, if I need something cheap.y  @ They do post offers to comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX sometimes. But it isB not that often. And the offers are usually relevant and of generalD interest for the readers. Of everything posted here I would put them in the more interesting half.t   Arne        I agree, Arne.o  E      Y'all need to look up spam.  The original definition was massivehF      cross-posting to multiple Usenet newsgroups, vis-a-vis Canter and      Siegel...  <      I got a perfectly good Multia from Island for $30 also.  A      Can't y'all see that they're offering (albeit slow) hobbyistr)      boxes for just the cost of shipping?s  E      I think they're trying to do a good deed here (and perhaps atoneeC      for past transgressions), just like they did with the Multias.a  @      Your opinion may differ, but you *know* what they say about      opinions...          WWWebb=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:57:38 -0700h* From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Barry@mmaz.com>B Subject: Sending a HTML content e-mail from VMS 5.5-2 using MX 4.2( Message-ID: <3980F6A2.D65EB9A7@mmaz.com>  G I'm attempting to e-mail to people an HTML based message which contains 1 among other things URL's to our internal servers.e  E The general environment is VMS 5.5-2 with MX 4.1.  The receipents aremF using a GUI based reader, Netscape, and at this time, the messages are2 appearing in complete text, the HTML tags and all.  D Any recommendations?  I've seen in the FAQ using Pine for MIME based< attachments.  Please don't tell me this is my only option...   Regards,   Barryn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:52:30 -0400r+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> 1 Subject: Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"u1 Message-ID: <39805ABE.7D6DC10E@trailing-edge.com>    Christopher Smith wrote: > ( > On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Alan Greig wrote: > 1 > >   abuse@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) wrote:pE > > > I am sure you remember the fine British product, the VAX vacuumbB > > > cleaner, and the phrase "Nothing sucks like a VAX".   Now we > > > have (drum roll, please):n > $ > I like the animated VMS graphic ;) > K > I also wonder whether the people who run the company are aware of VMS the  > operating system...h  = Seen while driving down the NJ Turnpike last week, on a giantt electronic sign:   "    THIS IS A TEST OF   " "      THE VMS SYSTEM    "  C Now I'm willing to bet that here "VMS" actually stands for "VehiclekD Message Signage" or something similar, but if someone wants to prove me wrong I'm listening :-)   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:30:26 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)P1 Subject: Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"c0 Message-ID: <009EDB78.D0A9005C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <39805ABE.7D6DC10E@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:a >Christopher Smith wrote:  >> r) >> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Alan Greig wrote:  >>  2 >> >   abuse@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) wrote:F >> > > I am sure you remember the fine British product, the VAX vacuumC >> > > cleaner, and the phrase "Nothing sucks like a VAX".   Now wet  >> > > have (drum roll, please): >> e% >> I like the animated VMS graphic ;)e >> gL >> I also wonder whether the people who run the company are aware of VMS the >> operating system... >o> >Seen while driving down the NJ Turnpike last week, on a giant >electronic sign:c >  >"    THIS IS A TEST OF   "r >"      THE VMS SYSTEM    "M >:D >Now I'm willing to bet that here "VMS" actually stands for "VehicleE >Message Signage" or something similar, but if someone wants to proveP >me wrong I'm listening :-)o  D Several years ago I, before I was employed by 'a satanic company', IE worked with an ex-digit who had, at one time, provided DEC consultingoE to the NJ Turnpike Authority (everything here in NJ is an Authority!)UE when they were on PDP boxes and, when she left, they were moving fromn the PDPs to VAX/VMS boxes.  F However, seeing as how you read this on the NJTPK, I'd guess it standsF for 'voracious money sucking' system; which is, after all, the one and= only purpose of any Authority here in the 'Garbage State'.      E BTW, were you travelling to or from SPC?  Next time, if there be one,f let me know so we can sync up. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:31:22 GMT 0 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com>1 Subject: Re: Shades of "Nothing sucks like a VAX"p& Message-ID: <FyDoA6.7Gs@world.std.com>  7 "Alan Frisbie" <abuse@flying-disk.com> wrote in messagen news:PQ1UOlcXHT5B@flying...eA > I am sure you remember the fine British product, the VAX vacuumf> > cleaner, and the phrase "Nothing sucks like a VAX".   Now we > have (drum roll, please):a >o# >          http://www.VMSblower.comi >aJ > I would make further comment, but my wife says to "keep it clean".   :-) >n  F I guess what can blow, can suck. Recall the reference to the Voluntary1 Milking System in the (April?) Popular Mechanics.u   All in good fun.  L Alas, the Q's ambulance-chasers believe otherwise. You oughta see the letterD these "Fine Upstanding And I'd Recommend Them To Anyone For AnythingJ Including Watching My Baby" homo sapiens with juris doctor degrees sent to- me for using a word that I no longer can use.s  : After all. it's trademarked by Wildfire Communications....   Cheers,0   Terry Sl' Product Manager, Compaq's New BS-Series6   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:46:24 GMT ) From: Joel Millett <jmillett@my-deja.com>4$ Subject: Standalone backups no more?) Message-ID: <8lpshf$sh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>r   Hi --n  D I am putting a new, larger hard drive into an Alpha 266 workstation.F My plan was to create a standalone (bootable) backup tape, boot to it,G then create an image backup of the old drive onto the tape.  Then I wasSE going to put the new drive in, boot to my bootable tape, and copy then3 image down onto the new drive.  Makes sense, right?o  F Anyway, I was unable to create a standalone backup tape using my trusyB @sys$update:stabackit command.  VMS told me that "STABACKIT" is no! longer supported in this version.   B Any ideas on how I can get around this?  Is there an easier way to accomplish my task?    Thanks for any help! Joel Millett    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:27:24 -0300r1 From: "Boyle, Darren" <boyledj@bankofbermuda.com>o( Subject: RE: Standalone backups no more?K Message-ID: <9F664D538536D411BD3200508B6FF01A333798@bdant027.bda.bobda.com>    Hi John,  E 	You need to boot off of the installation CD for your version of VMS,h( this is the Alpha equivalent of STABAKIT - Darren   > ----------0 > From: 	Joel Millett[SMTP:jmillett@my-deja.com]( > Sent: 	Thursday, July 27, 2000 2:46 PM > To: 	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com' > Subject: 	Standalone backups no more?n >  > Hi --a > F > I am putting a new, larger hard drive into an Alpha 266 workstation.H > My plan was to create a standalone (bootable) backup tape, boot to it,I > then create an image backup of the old drive onto the tape.  Then I was G > going to put the new drive in, boot to my bootable tape, and copy the.5 > image down onto the new drive.  Makes sense, right?n > H > Anyway, I was unable to create a standalone backup tape using my trusyD > @sys$update:stabackit command.  VMS told me that "STABACKIT" is no# > longer supported in this version.g > D > Any ideas on how I can get around this?  Is there an easier way to > accomplish my task?- >  > Thanks for any help! > Joel Millett >  > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.m >     F **********************************************************************C This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential andrJ may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacy legislation.M They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they(L are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, B please notify the sender immediately and then delete this message.I You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution or copyingr of this message is prohibited.   Bank of BermudahF **********************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:25:19 -0500t# From: "Jaguar" <FWineski@webtv.net> ( Subject: Re: Standalone backups no more?. Message-ID: <so1350cl3j184@corp.supernews.com>   Joel,=  I Tape-based standalone backup has never been supported on Alphas. You can,C@ however, boot from the OpenVMS distribution CD and run a backup.    6 "Joel Millett" <jmillett@my-deja.com> wrote in message# news:8lpshf$sh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com...a > Hi --s >bF > I am putting a new, larger hard drive into an Alpha 266 workstation.H > My plan was to create a standalone (bootable) backup tape, boot to it,I > then create an image backup of the old drive onto the tape.  Then I wastG > going to put the new drive in, boot to my bootable tape, and copy thei5 > image down onto the new drive.  Makes sense, right?- >-H > Anyway, I was unable to create a standalone backup tape using my trusyD > @sys$update:stabackit command.  VMS told me that "STABACKIT" is no# > longer supported in this version.o >cD > Any ideas on how I can get around this?  Is there an easier way to > accomplish my task?" >n > Thanks for any help! > Joel Millett >a > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:24:41 GMTo1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> ( Subject: Re: Standalone backups no more?2 Message-ID: <39808C5D.61B5ABF8@clarityconnect.com>  C OpenVMS Alpha does not support booting from tape.  Create a minimumyG environment root on another disk and boot that.  Backup the system diskmF to tape, shutdown, power off and swap the disk.  Power on and boot theD minimum environment root again and then restore from tape to the newE disk.  Additionally adding a CD to the system can accomplish the sameq% thing if you have a bootable CD.  UsenH SYS$SYSTEM:AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL_MIN.COM to create the minimum environment root.s   Joel Millett wrote:a >  > Hi --  > F > I am putting a new, larger hard drive into an Alpha 266 workstation.H > My plan was to create a standalone (bootable) backup tape, boot to it,I > then create an image backup of the old drive onto the tape.  Then I was.G > going to put the new drive in, boot to my bootable tape, and copy thee5 > image down onto the new drive.  Makes sense, right?  > H > Anyway, I was unable to create a standalone backup tape using my trusyD > @sys$update:stabackit command.  VMS told me that "STABACKIT" is no# > longer supported in this version.r > D > Any ideas on how I can get around this?  Is there an easier way to > accomplish my task?  >  > Thanks for any help! > Joel Millett > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.r   -- uD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2000 20:09:06 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)( Subject: Re: Standalone backups no more?6 Message-ID: <8lq4t2$iom$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  U In article <8lpshf$sh2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Joel Millett <jmillett@my-deja.com> writes:o ..G :Anyway, I was unable to create a standalone backup tape using my trusySC :@sys$update:stabackit command.  VMS told me that "STABACKIT" is no-" :longer supported in this version. :hC :Any ideas on how I can get around this?  Is there an easier way to  :accomplish my task?  E   For OpenVMS Alpha, Standalone BACKUP was last seen and last shipped.*   with the OpenVMS Alpha V1.5-1H1 release.  C   The bootable environment CD-ROM is used for various purposes (forwC   BACKUP, for access and repair to the system disk, etc), and this cC   environment is part of the CD-ROM OpenVMS distribution kit.  You  E   can also acquire a bootable CD-ROM kit as part of most any OpenVMS 7E   Alpha hardware release kit.  You can also create your own bootable iD   environment (on disk) using the STABACKIT tool (or more directly, (   the AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL_MIN.COM tool):  C $ @sys$update:stabackit  ! <- command invoked on OpenVMS Alpha V7.2   H       Standalone Backup is no longer part of the OpenVMS Alpha operatingH       system.  Please refer to the "Backing Up and Restoring the  SystemH       Disk"  appendix  in  the  "OpenVMS  Alpha Upgrade and Installation#       Manual" for more information.1  H       After  reading  the information in the manual, you may wish to useH       the procedure  SYS$SYSTEM:AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL_MIN.COM  to  installH       OpenVMS Alpha without any optional features on one or more of your       "data disks".   F Do you wish to invoke SYS$SYSTEM:AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL_MIN.COM? [Yes/No] 	...    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:56:45 -0400H2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)* Subject: Re: Stirrings in the undergrowth?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2807000156450001@user-2ivecal.dialup.mindspring.com>  O In article <009EDB4D.26C5057B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:r    E > If that be the case, then it wasn't a very fair contest was it.  I  4 > wonder what laws govern such a giveaway contest?    B The second law of bureaudynamics:  Incompetence floats to the top.  K I'm sure their lawyers had enough fine print to cover themselves.  The factc. that is was invisible probably doesn't matter.   K > >The webmasters are off being trained in the use of garish colors and neweK > >de-humidifier plug-ins.  They'll only be happy when every page contains aE > >enough non-html that no platform on earth can display it properly.l > E > BLASPHEMER!  For your penance, you must recite the "lord's prayer":  > $ >   Czar William who art in Redmond, >   How will your PC reign?	% >   Thy kingdom won, thy will be one,-# >   On earth you're internet maven!M  I No, I don't have to recite this.  Unlike you, I've never had a billy-box PJ foisted upon me.  And my personal Mac contains no nanosoft viruses at all.L I did have a close call once, when I installed an ISP kit.  I told it NOT toI install internet exploder, but it got installed anyway (on multiple disks/I at the same time), and it wiped out every netscape configuration it couldrD find.  But, being wise to the ways of evil, I had archived copies ofH everything netscapish on a zip disk, which I write-protected and removedK from the drive.  So I just expunged internet exploder and put netscape backhJ where it belonged.  Unlike Dilbert in one of my favorite strips, I did NOTE have a shotgun at hand "just in case".  I'm not paranoid or anything.d   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:22:47 GMTo0 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Such Crap& Message-ID: <FyDoA4.7Ft@world.std.com>  L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y44s5exsbq.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de.../ > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes:A >EC > > Perhaps the pace of change is not fast enough for you. However,9	 Customers-K > > like Japan Telecom (recent $24M win), E*Trade, NorthernLight and a slewe ofJ > > other Customers (including NEW Customers) are satisfied that Compaq isK > > serious about OpenVMS. ISE (International Securities Exchange) is a NEWnH > > Customer that will be offering around the clock services on a global scale.* > > They are about to go live anytime now. >iL > I do hope they forced CPQ to sign a source escrow agreement before buying.  J Oh, don't worry. They get Michael Capellas' first born son (if he has one)L as escrow. Also 12 of the buildings on the Houston campus. And a buy-back of the Maynard Mill.-  K Now what the hell else do you in your infinite wisdom believe a new OpenVMSnK buyer ought to get? I've met with enough of them lately to realize that are   satisfied with their investment.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:16:42 GMTh0 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com>, Subject: Re: The Economist on CPQ DEC merger& Message-ID: <FyDoA1.7EJ@world.std.com>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:8lkq8i$63g$1@pyrite.mv.net...L > Interesting article (glad I tried again today after getting a 'bad target'G > response the first time).  But I agree that the author's insights are  > questionable.g >s  L I had a chance to vet the article (I have a draft done in early June sittingL on my PC) but apparently missed the deadline. So be it, and read it for what you think it's worth.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:28:51 -0400y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a Subject: Re: Updating RMS Filese, Message-ID: <39808D72.D5862C39@videotron.ca>   "Web2.lyon" wrote:G > Does anybody know how to update an RMS indexed file without using thet/ > RTL routines (SYS$UPDATE) under a C program ?n  3 Why do you feel the need to void the RMS routines ?   N C does not provide for indexed file access as part of its language or run timeG library. ( COBOL does though). You can use DCL though ( READ to get thet' record, and WRITE/UPDATE to update it).e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:06:46 -0400 ( From: sol gongola <sol@mail.adldata.com> Subject: Re: VMS File Managerr, Message-ID: <397FC366.772C@mail.adldata.com>  D The VMS x windows interface (decwindows, motif, etc) includes a file manager.   sol gongolae >mE > I'm working with an OpenVMS AXP system in a college computer lab --rG > After exploring the file structure, I noticed PILOT, the default filesC > manager for PINE, as well as SWING -- An additional, customizablea > program to organize files --H > Do any other file managers exist for VMS that I might be overlooking ? > H > I'm at least an INTERMEDIATE User in OpenVms systems -- Which websitesH > contain additional commands/undocumented features/administration tools. > useful for the advanced user/administrator ? > DEVO_X > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:07 GMTe From: stephen.hegge@parexel.coma* Subject: VMS-Oracle DBA position available) Message-ID: <8lps1v$s1d$1@nnrp1.deja.com>-  B We are aggressively looking to fill a VMS-Oracle DBA position.  MyB company is located in Lowell, MA (about 25 miles north of Boston).  C We have a 2-node 8400 vmscluster (7.1-2) running three instances ofa Oracle DB (7.3.3.6).  E Please forward any resumes to me directly - stephen.hegge@parexel.come   Stevet    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:10:02 -0600t- From: Lorin Ricker <Lorin.Ricker@t-netix.com>iE Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: help me with the seed of satan pseudo-O/SkI Message-ID: <418E68E524A8D311ACCE00508B78866A7680E5@exchange.t-netix.com>   I >> It'd be a very cold day in hell before I'd install anything from them!uD > i am *amazed* that your response is this short and obscenity-free.I > at the risk of causing pain in the vaxcave, i would ask why you (Lorin)c2 > and others run this, let alone pay money for it?  2 Ouch!  That *did* hurt... Was it something I said?   D Of course, *your* mileage may vary... My remarks about XLNT, which IK *personally* find to be a useful and helpful product, were in the spirit of I offering an alternative, like the previous posting re: Acceler8's DCLliteiL product, to the original problem posting in this thread.  Since I last triedF to contribute constructively to this conversation, I've downloaded the< DCLlite package and given it a spin... it's pretty neat too.  8 > unless you're just doing quick & dirty work on a very E > infrequent basis, aren't you better off learning the system the ways? > it is [cough] meant to be used, rather than through a filter?h  K Well, that's an accurate guess... re: Windows, my need for the command lineiL is indeed limited mostly to the "quick & dirty" stuff... I'm not inclined toL invest much in what *I believe to be* (my opinion, yours may be different) aL limited and confining command syntax, esp. when I've got a more suitable (to8 me) alternative, namely DCL (in XLNT or 'lite clothing).  L As to "learning the system >the way it's meant to be used<"... Huh?  MeaningF I'm better off risking repetitive motion stress injury by pointing andG clicking my brains out?  Isn't that the way Windows is "supposed" to bee used?t  I I may be an old geezer, but I've learned and conquered a bunch of command J line languages and syntaxes... DCL just happens to be my current favorite,9 and the one I'd prefer to use if and when it's available.   B > i'm just as big a VMS bigot as anyone else in this group, but is) > there anything of actual value in XLNT?u  J Uh, er, well, how about DCL?... the syntax and style of the language, thatK is.  Both XLNT and 'lite (from a trial-use perspective) give me the comfortnG of command files, vocabulary, parameters, symbolic/string substitution,rL verb-object syntax, qualifiers, and more, in a "shell" that I can quickly be0 productive and accurate in... Isn't that enough?  E An anecdote (which some other old geezers in this crowd might want to-I elaborate more fully, but here's a start):  In the beginning, i.e., v1.0,lF VMS was conceived of as permitting or being able to support *multiple*L command line interpreters (CLIs, yes, plural)... MCR was really the first...L DCL came "later."  Other "bolt-ons" have indeed been released by DEC (pre-Q)J and third-parties (anyone remember "Eunice", a "Unix-like shell for VMS"?,K or, indeed, the old RT-11 AME?), but haven't, in the long run, survived theoJ cut (i.e., they had limited-duty lifetimes).  If you knew 'em, you might'a9 *hated* 'em... but they are viable examples of the genre.a  I But the "architecture" of VMS was (and remains) really agnostic about theTH command line... DCL persists today because it's proven itself versatile,J easy (enough) to use and master, and has evolved through VMS versions withL enough neat new features, plus built-in extensibility, to keep us (those who care) interested and engaged.-  I And since NT benefited from that same VMS architect's design guidance, itrD stands to reason that NT is just as agnostic about command line, andK "bolt-on" CLIs are just as valid (and useful) in the Windows environment ascL they ever were/are.  IMHO, and with due respect, the claim for "the way it's. *supposed* to be used" is a specious argument.  
 Cordially,    Lorin Ricker-   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:40:17 GMTl= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)tE Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: help me with the seed of satan pseudo-O/Sg0 Message-ID: <009EDB8A.F45B1B6B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  I In article <418E68E524A8D311ACCE00508B78866A7680E5@exchange.t-netix.com>,cJ Lorin Ricker <Lorin.Ricker@t-netix.com> speweth forth with vile obscenity:J >>> It'd be a very cold day in hell before I'd install anything from them!E >> i am *amazed* that your response is this short and obscenity-free.eJ >> at the risk of causing pain in the vaxcave, i would ask why you (Lorin)3 >> and others run this, let alone pay money for it?r >p3 >Ouch!  That *did* hurt... Was it something I said?n  I My response was obscenity free as yours was so ladden with it.  You can'th' leave well enough alone?  Bugger off!!!     E >Of course, *your* mileage may vary... My remarks about XLNT, which I*L >*personally* find to be a useful and helpful product, were in the spirit ofJ >offering an alternative, like the previous posting re: Acceler8's DCLliteM >product, to the original problem posting in this thread.  Since I last triedoG >to contribute constructively to this conversation, I've downloaded the.= >DCLlite package and given it a spin... it's pretty neat too.   F The quality package comes from Accelr8.  The lite version is a freebe,F parred-down version of their full blown $99.00 package.  Bet you got aE bigger nose bleed from that other "thing" you're touting.  Next time,*F learn a little bit about what you're endorsing before you stand up and let yourself be counted for it.0    L >Well, that's an accurate guess... re: Windows, my need for the command lineM >is indeed limited mostly to the "quick & dirty" stuff... I'm not inclined toaM >invest much in what *I believe to be* (my opinion, yours may be different) aeM >limited and confining command syntax, esp. when I've got a more suitable (to<9 >me) alternative, namely DCL (in XLNT or 'lite clothing).n  ; There you go again...  Stop tainting c.o.v. with obscenity.r  M >As to "learning the system >the way it's meant to be used<"... Huh?  MeaningtG >I'm better off risking repetitive motion stress injury by pointing anddH >clicking my brains out?  Isn't that the way Windows is "supposed" to be >used? >eJ >I may be an old geezer, but I've learned and conquered a bunch of commandK >line languages and syntaxes... DCL just happens to be my current favorite,y: >and the one I'd prefer to use if and when it's available. >"C >> i'm just as big a VMS bigot as anyone else in this group, but isI* >> there anything of actual value in XLNT? >oK >Uh, er, well, how about DCL?... the syntax and style of the language, that L >is.  Both XLNT and 'lite (from a trial-use perspective) give me the comfortH >of command files, vocabulary, parameters, symbolic/string substitution,M >verb-object syntax, qualifiers, and more, in a "shell" that I can quickly bee1 >productive and accurate in... Isn't that enough?    No!     F >An anecdote (which some other old geezers in this crowd might want toJ >elaborate more fully, but here's a start):  In the beginning, i.e., v1.0,G >VMS was conceived of as permitting or being able to support *multiple*nM >command line interpreters (CLIs, yes, plural)... MCR was really the first...aM >DCL came "later."  Other "bolt-ons" have indeed been released by DEC (pre-Q)sK >and third-parties (anyone remember "Eunice", a "Unix-like shell for VMS"?, L >or, indeed, the old RT-11 AME?), but haven't, in the long run, survived theK >cut (i.e., they had limited-duty lifetimes).  If you knew 'em, you might'ao: >*hated* 'em... but they are viable examples of the genre. >bJ >But the "architecture" of VMS was (and remains) really agnostic about theI >command line... DCL persists today because it's proven itself versatile, K >easy (enough) to use and master, and has evolved through VMS versions withnM >enough neat new features, plus built-in extensibility, to keep us (those whot >care) interested and engaged. >tJ >And since NT benefited from that same VMS architect's design guidance, itE >stands to reason that NT is just as agnostic about command line, and L >"bolt-on" CLIs are just as valid (and useful) in the Windows environment asM >they ever were/are.  IMHO, and with due respect, the claim for "the way it'sY/ >*supposed* to be used" is a specious argument.n >- >Cordially,C >   Lorin Ricker  
 rev 11:2-3   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.418 ************************