1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 01 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 305       Contents:, Re: AlphaStation 200 firmware update problem Re: Amazon jumps ship  Re: Amazon jumps ship  Re: Amazon jumps ship  Re: Capellas supports Microsoft , Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?), Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?), Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?), Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) Re: Connecting to console port. 
 Re: DAP error  Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration Re: ES40 Configuration
 FTP RMS error  Re: General discussion comment Re: General discussion comment, Re: How do I fix RMS corruption of MAIL.MAI?. How to get a list of all Global section names?E Re: I/O cache - HSZ, was Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) E Re: I/O cache - HSZ, was Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) 9 Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-2 9 Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-2 9 Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-2 * Re: OpenVMS vs Tru64 Pathworks performance
 Re: PATCHs
 Re: PATCHs
 Re: PATCHs
 Re: PATCHs1 problem with formatting drives on VAXstation 2000  Re: scsi disks on OVMS Re: Telnet and License Re: Telnet and License Re: Unneeed RMS overhead with C  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  RE: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel? - Re: VAX VMS 7.2 Bug? ; backup/image/(no)alias D Re: VAXCluster Principles book (was Re: Problem with resource	locks) VMS Documentation. Re: VMS Documentation. RE: VMS Documentation. Re: VMS on the desktop? 4 Re: VMS V6.2 to V7.2 upgrade disaster (VAXsta 3138).4 Re: VMS V6.2 to V7.2 upgrade disaster (VAXsta 3138). What is KSPBA-CY?  RE: Wildfire Announcement  Re: Wildfire Announcement   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:01:28 GMT( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>5 Subject: Re: AlphaStation 200 firmware update problem ' Message-ID: <FvH86G.Drx@spcuna.spc.edu>   # Shane.F.Smith@healthnet.com writes: M > The full current BIOS version is 4.56 971219.1000 (NVRAM usage 11%, 341 out M > of 3052). It's the Microsoft (hawk, spit) compatible firmware, not the SRM, L > that's loaded, and the option it lists to use the OpenVMS console does sod > all.  K   The Alphastation 200 is normally "half-flashed" - there isn't enough room M in there to hold both the ARC and SRM code unless you install some more flash D chips. So trying to change modes via console commands has no effect.  ? > The video card reports as a "24 plane frame buffer video card J > ZXLp-E2", device number 13, vendor 1011, device id 4, device revision 3,J > interrupt 9. Can anyone tell me what monitor settings it is looking for?  J   That's a very nice video card, with a resolution and refresh rate that's- set by dip switches on the back of the card.    K   If you set the switches to down/up/down/up you've configured the card for H 800 x 600, 60Hz, which just about any multifrequency monitor can handle.  K   Note that the switch orientation described above is when the card has the L "headphone jack" on the left, then the switches, and then the VGA connector.I If I remember correctly, this is the opposite orientation from the way it  sits in the AS200.  H   Two notes: 1) You need to power cycle the box to get it to notice thisK change (you could type "init" if you had the SRM console loaded, but... 8-) J and 2) This board does odd things with sync, so you may get a dim and out-J of focus (but readable) picture if you have the wrong video cable. Since II use PC monitors with attached generic cables, I soldered a jumper wire on G the board's VGA connector instead of getting the right cable. But we'll % cross this bridge when we come to it.   J > Failing that, does anyone know how to boot this smegger from a floppy toL > update the firmware? I tried the bootable VMS floppy option, and it didn't! > even recognize the file system.   L   That won't work unless you're using the VMS firmware. Use the bootable DOS floppy method.  - 	Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com 5         terry@tmk.com             Jersey City, NJ USA    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:33:59 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Amazon jumps ship, Message-ID: <393611CB.D9AD1A50@videotron.ca>  & OK, I'll take a positive spin on this:  ; 1- Sun is also losing amazon. (amazon was not Compaq only).   L 2- The more True64 customers Compaq loses, the greater the importante of VMS in the enterprise  department at Compaq.   N 3- This make give a good wakeup call at Compaq and instead of spending time toI support Microsoft that it should concentrate on fixing its own marketing.   Y 4- Hopefully some major shareholders of Compaq may start to question Capellas intentions.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:06 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Amazon jumps ship* Message-ID: <393637A9.91E73EC5@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   ( > OK, I'll take a positive spin on this: > = > 1- Sun is also losing amazon. (amazon was not Compaq only).    > N > 2- The more True64 customers Compaq loses, the greater the importante of VMS > in the enterprise  > department at Compaq.  > P > 3- This make give a good wakeup call at Compaq and instead of spending time toK > support Microsoft that it should concentrate on fixing its own marketing.  > [ > 4- Hopefully some major shareholders of Compaq may start to question Capellas intentions.   X This isn't a terribly new story, HP replaced a whole load of Compaq Alphaservers earlierP on this year that were running Amazon's financials and other internal functions.  R Amazon quoted their reasons at the time being HP's superior scalability (V-Series)Q and at the same time announced that they would be re-selling HP printers and PC's  via their Web site.   S Since the V-Series arn't more scalable than either IBM's or Sun's by any metric you U choose to use except that they scale to use more floor space one has to conclude that T the V-Series were good enough for the job and the primary motivation was the deal to sell HP PC's and printers.  Q This new deal seems to be an extension of the origional agreement to allow Amazon P to market more HP products directly in return for more HP kit being installed to run Amazons site.   L The question one has to ask is if there is one to ask is why were Amazon notO interested in marketing Compaq's consumer devices and why they seem to consider % HP to be a better brand in this area.        Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:28:08 GMT* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) Subject: Re: Amazon jumps ship+ Message-ID: <eoO2bAKIbWgi@eisner.decus.org>   Y In article <FvGFr6.MM4@world.std.com>, "Terry C. Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> writes:  > 3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@Killeen.cc> wrote in message ! > news:3935c8d3@news.toast.net...  >>N > cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/20000531/news/current/amzn.htx?source=htx/http2_ >> mw  >> > C > Hmmm... there's always www.barnesandnoble.com and www.borders.com  > N > Actually, I have found that Amazon frequently does not have the best prices,: > at least according to the deal broker at www.ichoose.com > I > And I always go for the best price, even though I'm an Amazon Affiliate , > through the SKC page on the Acersoft site. >   7 	The best way (IMHO) to buy books is to go to Yahoo and @ 	search books and find the cheapest one that comes up.  I boughtB 	from alldirect.com and can't even remember the last outfit I used? 	and their service was good.  One other tip, use UPS .. it got	 ? 	there in 3 days last time.  Actually cheaper to buy it and pay > 	$3.50 for shipping then go to Borders and get it.  Still neat> 	to wander through a book store and find good books to go back 	to Yahoo for. . .     				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:19:35 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: Capellas supports Microsoft, Message-ID: <39360E6B.27B99903@videotron.ca>  N Well, seems that Microsoft took Capellas support to heart and may use CapellasI as witness in its attempt as preventing its breakuk. Heard this on CNN on / Wednesday. Confirmed by a news item in reuters:   P And it took issue with another matter of definitions. Microsoft said the plan toB  break up the company should be called a ``divestiture'' and not a  ``reorganization.''  N  The company also listed a host of possible new witnesses it could call, amongH  them Michael Capellas, president and chief executive of Compaq ComputerH  Corp. (NYSE:CPQ - news), Jeffrey Katzenberg, a founder and principal of?  DreamWorks SKG, Tony Nicely, chairman of GEICO Corp., and John D  Whitace, chairman and chief executive of Nordstrom Inc. (NYSE:JWN -  news)      Q WHAT DOES COMPAQ HAVE TO GAIN BY BEING THE ONLY ONE TO SUPPORT MICROSOFT ????????    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 16:49:27 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) 5 Subject: Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-hpj8rWJ7JpRI@localhost>   C On Sun, 31 May 3900 15:33:26, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David   Mathog) wrote:   ..K > Oh come on.  It's perfectly fair to point out that on small systems under I > typical loads for such systems the file caching mechanisms used by Unix G > (and WNT) do result in real increases in system performance, and it's I > equally fair to point out that many pieces of software ported from Unix M > implicitly assume this behavior and so run less efficiently on OpenVMS than M > they do on Unix.  This thread has nothing to do with GUIs vs. command line, H > it's about the real 2X to 3X performance boost that you get with file 
 > caching.   David D              you keep quoting this 2/3 READ performance boost and I B seem to remember you posted some figures to illustrate the point. F However, I also seem to remember a post by Arne (I think) showing thatC read performance across VMS, Unix and NT to be approximately equal.   F Now what I think you're pointing out is that for an application which @ creates lots of small files and then reads them back again, the D Read/Write back caching mechanisms of NT/Unix provide an advantage. F That I can understand and appreciate. However, is that the typical VMS/ scenario? In our environment, my users use the  C cross-assembler/link/build suite to build an OFP (downlable to the  E target computer). This process consists of 2 passes across up to 230  E source files, writing the object files (and list files for each when  F required), insertion of the files into the object libraries and then 26 passes across the objects to create an image/map file.  D All the tools use tuned RMS to access the source/object/image files ! and 10 years ago the process took D 50/55 minutes on an 8820 (VAX), now its 6 on a 2100 (AXP). However, ? even on a 4000/108 (VAX) it'sstill only about 8/9 mins (IIRC).  ; Certainly as fast as our 8 year old AXP 4000 (600 I think).   B The biggest performance boosts I gained by program changes were :-  A   Using hashing to do the symbol table management instead of the  & binary search/insert that I inherited.E   Using the VMS library routines to enable my linker to need to only  # open one or two files when linking. C   Using vitual memory to build by loadable image instead of a file. F   Specifying my initial file size to the value I know it's going to be% when I create the down-loadable file.   E The second speeded up linking quite a bit. Mainly because it avoided  C the File open overhead of RMS. I've always understood this to be a  . by-product of VMS security. I've no complaint.  ( no. 3 - well it just made more sense :-)  B no 4. - again simple common sense 'cos it avoids the penalties of  $EXTEND.  F Now the point I'm leading to is that the largest amount of READ i/o I F do is the source files and I'm not convinced that UNIX per se would beF particularly quicker than VMS here and still provide me with the same D level of C2 security. Similarly, as the same source files can be in F shared use by a concurrent build on another node maybe I'm better off 5 with the caching being done by the controller anyway.    Horses for courses.   F RMS has its disadvantages over the UNIX/DOS cooked/raw options. It is F utimately slower measured in pure record access but RMS means I don't E have to manage the records anymore. It gives me Indexed, sequential,  @ direct access, variable/fixed length records etc. That gives me > performance gains in my applications and makes them easier to 	 maintain.    Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:39:21 GMT % From: Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com> 5 Subject: Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) ) Message-ID: <8h6037$2r4$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   , In article <8h0n8i$d7t@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,&   mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu wrote:% > WHY NOT make good use of the unused B > memory in a system?  Lord knows you pay enough for it on a DS10!  
 VMS 7.2-1?   $ HELP SET FILE/CACHING   9 Of course you need the dead end Spiralog for this to work 8 but with it you can set writebehind caching on a file or8 directory basis and supposedly the best bits of Spiralog will turn up again sometime.   --
 Alan Greig    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:06:09 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 5 Subject: Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) ( Message-ID: <8h6505$k76$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 Dave Weatherall <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-hpj8rWJ7JpRI@localhost...    ...   G > Now the point I'm leading to is that the largest amount of READ i/o I H > do is the source files and I'm not convinced that UNIX per se would be$ > particularly quicker than VMS here  C Might not be.  But if the source files are large, Unix's ability to # pre-fetch automatically could help.   #  and still provide me with the same  > level of C2 security.   K C2 security is C2 security, it doesn't come in levels.  Some Unixes provide L it (don't happen to know which).  Seems unlikely caching has much to do with it.  Larry might know.  .  Similarly, as the same source files can be inG > shared use by a concurrent build on another node maybe I'm better off 7 > with the caching being done by the controller anyway.   J But you wouldn't be if VMS had ever done distributed caching right (last I@ knew, they were finally heading in the direction of node-to-nodeJ data-sharing as part of the caching enhancements Rob mentioned elsewhere).   >  > Horses for courses.  > G > RMS has its disadvantages over the UNIX/DOS cooked/raw options. It is 1 > utimately slower measured in pure record access   L Needn't be.  Counted records certainly have some performance advantages overL delimited records, and there's no intrinsic reason why any RMS processing atJ all comparable to Unix/DOS non-record processing should take too many more
 instructions.   F Most of the perceived slowness of RMS is likely related to the cachingJ issues discussed elsewhere, though a certain amount of pure code bloat hasK likely accumulated as well over the past 22 years.  The other major problem J with RMS is that it takes so many hundreds of pages to describe how to useB all its options, but that's a programmer-performance rather than a processing-speed issue.     but RMS means I don'tF > have to manage the records anymore. It gives me Indexed, sequential,3 > direct access, variable/fixed length records etc.   J There are similar relatively standard packages available on Unix, but theyH aren't integrated with the OS (nor need they be, since for the most partL they're process-level code - just like RMS on the 11 - though providing themD with the system would certainly help ensure inter-operability across applications).   - bill    That gives me? > performance gains in my applications and makes them easier to  > maintain.  >  > Cheers - Dave. >    ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:35:36 GMT9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 5 Subject: Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?) + Message-ID: <vwQo0dczqZAq@eisner.decus.org>   R In article <8h6505$k76$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > : > Dave Weatherall <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message1 > news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-hpj8rWJ7JpRI@localhost...  >  > ...  > H >> Now the point I'm leading to is that the largest amount of READ i/o II >> do is the source files and I'm not convinced that UNIX per se would be % >> particularly quicker than VMS here  > E > Might not be.  But if the source files are large, Unix's ability to % > pre-fetch automatically could help.  > % >  and still provide me with the same  >> level of C2 security. > M > C2 security is C2 security, it doesn't come in levels.  Some Unixes provide N > it (don't happen to know which).  Seems unlikely caching has much to do with > it.  Larry might know.  C When an operating system is evaluated at the C2 level (or any other @ level) it may include some particular require parameter settings9 (the VMS system parameter SECURITY_POLICY is an example).   E If any Unix operating system got a C2 evaluation that require caching @ be turned off, it would say so in the evaluation report.  BeyondD that NSA considers all C2 evaluated systems to be at the same level.& There is no more-C2-than-thou concept.  D From my perspective, the main hazards of caching have to do with theB opportunity to scramble your data on disk by crashing at the wrong= moment.  That seems more a denial-of-service than a C2 issue.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:30:21 -0400 * From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>( Subject: Re: Connecting to console port.- Message-ID: <3935E6DD.8206707B@tsoft-inc.com>   N Please be a bit more specific about the VAX3100.  If you have a MicroVAX 3100,P what model?  What type of serial port?  DB9?  MMJ?  If you can be specific, thenM the pin configuration at each end can be specified, you make/acquire a cable, < run a terminal emulator, at 9600 baud, and you should be in.  P Yes, I have specs for the PC DB9 port.  Not with me.  In another building.  They are also in the FAQ I believe.  P What the hell, I keep a copy of the FAQ on the network, actually the system I am using.  - MISC1.  Looking for connector wiring pinouts?    DECconnect DEC-423 MMJ pinout:     1: Data Terminal Ready (DTR)   2: Transmit (TXD)    3: Transmit Ground (TXD-)    4: Receive Ground (RXD-)   5: Receive (RXD)   6: Data Set Ready (DSR)       +------------------+     | 1  2  3  4  5  6 |     +------------+    ++                  +____+    / The PC-compatible DB9 connector pinout follows:      1: Data Carrier Detect (DCD)   2: Received Data   3: Transmit Data   4: Data Terminal Ready (DTR)   5: Ground    6: Data Set Ready (DSR)    7: Request To Send (RTS)   8: Clear To Send
   9: floating   C The MicroVAX DB9 console connector pinout predates the PC-style DB9 D pinout, and uses a then-common (older) standard pinout, and uses the# following EIA-232-standard signals:      1: Protective Ground   2: Transmited Data   3: Received Data   4: Request To Send (RTS)   5: Data Terminal Ready (DTR)   6: Data Set Ready (DSR)    7: Signal Ground8   8: Shorted to pin 9 on MicroVAX and VAXstation 2000...3   9:    ...series systems, otherwise left floating.    Question answered.   Dave     Chris Morrill wrote: > N > Let me be a little more specific.  I plan to connect to it via a serial portE > on a PC.  Does anyone know of the pin layout for a 9-pin connector?  > 6 > Chris Morrill <cmorrill@micron.net> wrote in message. > news:bSiZ4.1011$bR5.41167@news.uswest.net...M > > Is there an easy way to connect to the console port of a VAX without a VT K > > term?  I am trying to set up a VAX3100 but do not have a VT term.  I am  > sure, > > it is sitting at the >>> prompt now.  :) > >  > >    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596; 170 Grimplin Road               E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:07:15 -0400 2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: DAP error7 Message-ID: <200006010707_MC2-A721-EE30@compuserve.com>   J         VMS V5.4 is not Year 2K compliant!  There is no patch available t= o H make it so.  Your only option is to upgrade to at least VMS V5.5-2.  VMS5 V6.2 and V7.1 can both be patched for Y2K compliance.   G         I don't know the Y2K status of Pathworks V4.1 but, since it has E been obsolete for about five years, I doubt if support or patches are  available any more.   1 Message text written by INTERNET:f.novelli@iol.it + >After many hours I discovered the problem. E The DAP error happens when I try to send to a microvax a file created F after 1/1/2000. If I send a file created before everything works fine.B I don't know if it's nft.exe by pc side that has a bug, or if it's fal.exe by vax side, or both... F If anyone knows where I can find a patch or new executables please let me know.E I'm running Pathworks 4.1 client on the pc and Pathworks 4.1 server +  VAX/VMS5.4 on a microvax3400. F I also have two Multia pc P100 xterminals from digital with WinNT 3.51 and Pathworks for WinNT.% Two microvax 3100/85 with Openvms6.2. 
 Thanks again,    Francesco Novelli   7 In article <200005300714_MC2-A6D3-BD79@compuserve.com>, 5   "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> wrote: C >         DAP is Data Access Protocol.   It's been years since I've 
 seen th=3D > isH > error.  I believe that Pathworks has a log file which may provide some; > details.  VMS may have logged something in NETSERVER.LOG,  particularly if=3D > . > you have defined the FAL$LOG logical to "1". > G >         I suspect that you have a network hardware problem; something  is- > corrupting the data you are trying to send.  > 8 > Message text written by INTERNET:f_novelli@my-deja.com+ > >Trying to copy some files from a PC with 3 > PATHWORKS to a microVAX machine via DECNET, using  > nft, I get the error: 4 > Error opening file: node"account pwd"::remote_path2 > Because DAP error reported by remote node xx/xxx3 > On the remote host a file of 0 blocks is created. ( > Anyone can help me solve this problem? > Best regards,< >  >  <    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:54:48 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration * Message-ID: <393632E8.79FCB3CA@uk.sun.com>   Dan Sugalski wrote:   > > At 11:22 AM 5/31/00 +0100, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: >  > >Dan Sugalski wrote:N > > >>>7) If the system's on a reliable UPS (and it is, *right*?), then enableL > >write-back caching on all the drives. You *will* see a win on drives that( > >are written to with any frequency.<<< > > N > >But you might not want to do that on disks related to Oracle (that's OracleI > >Classic, not RDB).  Whenever we have a problem with Oracle we get told H > >"turn off write back caching".  We say "but we've never had it on the > >disks in our G > >ESA10000s".  They then respond with any other cache (almost taken at H > >random) and say "is it on?" to which we respond "yes, but it makes noI > >difference to what the Oracle stuff is doing" and we still get told to  > >take it off.  > K > Oracle doesn't know what the heck it's talking about, then. It's possible K > that some other manufacturer has a cache problem (EMC or Sun, perhaps, or K > someone's software RAID), but it works fine for StorageWorks devices. You H > can shoot yourself by yanking the power or a drive before the cache isG > flushed, but operationally? No difference, just the speed boost and a * > larger danger window in case of failure. >   D No the cache problem you refer to is the problem you describe at the@ end of you paragraph, namely that if you enable write caching onC a drive without a mirrored cache or NVRAM then you cannot guarantee  the integrity of your data.   F Oracle's advice in this respect is identical on all the platforms they@ support. Use write caches that are mirrored and that have NVRAM.  9 This isn't an EMC/Sun problem its a OpenVMS/Tru64/Sun/EMC = and any other platform combination you care to choose problem = this problem also has nothing to do with software or hardware  RAID.   < Turning on the write caches on you drives themselves exposes? you to things like the DBMS writing the transaction log to your @ drive, the power failing and you losing blocks of data from your@ transaction log. Most people consider this to be a very very badB thing and in this respect Oracles advice just reflects what should be good practice.    Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:42:18 -0400 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration 8 Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000601102826.00ea8710@24.8.96.48>  B At 10:54 AM 6/1/00 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >Dan Sugalski wrote: > @ > > At 11:22 AM 5/31/00 +0100, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: > >  > > >Dan Sugalski wrote:J > > > >>>7) If the system's on a reliable UPS (and it is, *right*?), then  > enableN > > >write-back caching on all the drives. You *will* see a win on drives that* > > >are written to with any frequency.<<< > > > J > > >But you might not want to do that on disks related to Oracle (that's  > OracleK > > >Classic, not RDB).  Whenever we have a problem with Oracle we get told J > > >"turn off write back caching".  We say "but we've never had it on the > > >disks in our I > > >ESA10000s".  They then respond with any other cache (almost taken at J > > >random) and say "is it on?" to which we respond "yes, but it makes noK > > >difference to what the Oracle stuff is doing" and we still get told to  > > >take it off.  > > M > > Oracle doesn't know what the heck it's talking about, then. It's possible M > > that some other manufacturer has a cache problem (EMC or Sun, perhaps, or M > > someone's software RAID), but it works fine for StorageWorks devices. You J > > can shoot yourself by yanking the power or a drive before the cache isI > > flushed, but operationally? No difference, just the speed boost and a , > > larger danger window in case of failure. > >  > E >No the cache problem you refer to is the problem you describe at the A >end of you paragraph, namely that if you enable write caching on D >a drive without a mirrored cache or NVRAM then you cannot guarantee >the integrity of your data.  K No, that is *not* the problem I refer to here Andrew. Oracle support says,  H and has said for a while, that having writeback caching enabled on your J storage causes data corruption. Period. If their database burps, it's the K first thing they tell you to turn off, because (or so they say) it must've  L geeked up the data. This has nothing to do with database corruption because J of power failure. They trot this one out regardless of *what* goes wrong. K You could have a fully battery-backed redundant cache system hanging off a  J hideously over-spec'd UPS that hasn't shown power glitches for months, on H systems where the drive conrollers show a full year uptime, and they'll  *still* tell you this.  G >Oracle's advice in this respect is identical on all the platforms they A >support. Use write caches that are mirrored and that have NVRAM.   K No, they don't. If your caches are mirrored and have NVRAM they still tell  I you to turn them off if they're writeback. Got that advice relayed to me  I from Oracle once. (This is bringing back old, annoying memories--thanks,   Andrew... :)  : >This isn't an EMC/Sun problem its a OpenVMS/Tru64/Sun/EMC> >and any other platform combination you care to choose problem> >this problem also has nothing to do with software or hardware >RAID.  G It's likely old folklore handed down from generations in the past when  E someone out there had a drive system with bad logic in the writeback  I caching logic somewhere. An amazing amount of Oracle operational info is  ? folklore, voodoo, and black magic. It's rather scary, honestly.   = >Turning on the write caches on you drives themselves exposes @ >you to things like the DBMS writing the transaction log to yourA >drive, the power failing and you losing blocks of data from your A >transaction log. Most people consider this to be a very very bad C >thing and in this respect Oracles advice just reflects what should  >be good practice.  J No it doesn't. I am fully aware of the larger danger window here, believe I me. (I do this for a living, Andrew--I do know what the risks are) There  L are, in fact, two major problems you open yourself up to in addition to the I powerfail problem (planning for which is part and parcel of being a good  
 sysadmin):  7 1) Writeback cache logic errors in your caching doodad. G 2) Oracle logic errors that become apparent only with writeback caches  @ because write requests return too soon and expose timing issues.  K To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches first,   regardless of the circumstance.      					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 16:05:22 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>  Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration ) Message-ID: <39367BB2.95A3F25C@bbc.co.uk>    Dan Sugalski wrote:    >  > L > To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches first,! > regardless of the circumstance.   C  Does this apply to the Unix unified buffer cache and NT's internal 
 caching also?    --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:21:45 -0400 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration 8 Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000601112101.01eed780@24.8.96.48>  . At 04:05 PM 6/1/00 +0100, Tim Llewellyn wrote: >Dan Sugalski wrote: > > N > > To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches first,# > > regardless of the circumstance.  > E >  Does this apply to the Unix unified buffer cache and NT's internal  >caching also?  G Oracle generally bypasses that sort of thing. They get as close to the   metal as they can manage.    					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:03:32 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration ( Message-ID: <8h61ad$e19$1@pyrite.mv.net>  - Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> wrote in message 2 news:4.3.1.0.20000601102826.00ea8710@24.8.96.48...   ...   L > No, that is *not* the problem I refer to here Andrew. Oracle support says,I > and has said for a while, that having writeback caching enabled on your K > storage causes data corruption. Period. If their database burps, it's the L > first thing they tell you to turn off, because (or so they say) it must'veE > geeked up the data. This has nothing to do with database corruption  because K > of power failure. They trot this one out regardless of *what* goes wrong. L > You could have a fully battery-backed redundant cache system hanging off aK > hideously over-spec'd UPS that hasn't shown power glitches for months, on I > systems where the drive conrollers show a full year uptime, and they'll  > *still* tell you this.  H While making such blanket statements is clearly technically incorrect onB Oracle's part, their attitude is understandable:  the existence ofL write-back cache, even mirrored and battery-backed, introduces failure modes= that are not present in straight-to-the-platter environments.   F  In particular, when writes go to the platters before completion, theyF create an environment which Oracle can *verify* is correct (within theK limitations of disk ECC mechanisms, which limit *undetected* error rates to L something like 1 in 10**-18, IIRC):  they *know* (by virtue of their loggingK semantics) whether data got to the platters (and if it didn't, have ways to H get it there after the fact), and can check the data on the platters for readability.  J But if dirty data existed in write-back cache when, say, power failed, andH the cache module was not (due to user error, or whatever) resynchronizedF with the disk when the system was brought back up (before Oracle's own@ recovery mechanisms ran), there's *no way* they can detect this.  F I tend to sympathize with their reluctance to depend upon unverifiablyL correct operation for their database's integrity:  in many respects, they goK to great lengths *not* to have to depend on such things.  This doesn't mean D that a competent installation shouldn't use battery-backed, mirroredI write-back caching, but it does mean that such installations take on more K responsibility than 'standard' installations for proving its correctness to K Oracle before getting Oracle neck-deep into serious (and often intractable)  trouble-shooting.    - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:07:36 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration ( Message-ID: <8h61i1$egd$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message# news:39367BB2.95A3F25C@bbc.co.uk...  >  >  > Dan Sugalski wrote:  >  > >  > > G > > To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches  first,# > > regardless of the circumstance.  > E >  Does this apply to the Unix unified buffer cache and NT's internal  > caching also?   K No:  databases handle their own caching, and bypass any file-system caching G (*certainly* any file-system write-back caching) even if using the file D system rather than 'raw' disks.  That's not because there's anythingF intrinsically wrong with file-system write-back caching:  it's becauseI database operation is tied very tightly to knowing exactly when data hits K the disk (in part to allow the database to do its *own* write-back caching,  which they do a great deal of).    - bill   >  > --8 > Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project2 > MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.C > Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  > C > I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  > MedAS or the BBC.  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:52:28 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration * Message-ID: <393694CC.456E4A73@uk.sun.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote:   > Dan Sugalski wrote:  >  > >  > > N > > To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches first,# > > regardless of the circumstance.  > E >  Does this apply to the Unix unified buffer cache and NT's internal  > caching also?  >   9 Well it depends on how you have your database configured. 9 Oracle for example can be run through the UNIX filesystem  or directly on RAW partitions.  = If you use the UNIX filesystem then Oracle writes through the < caches for writes but can interact with the UFS buffer cache9 for reads, I say can because both the Solaris UNIX FS and : VxFS have a direct I/O capability which bypasses the cache; on reads and writes. This is to avoid the read modify write 7 used by UFS and also to avoid memory contention between " the UFS buffer cache and the DBMS.  = If you use RAW partitions which is the default for Sybase and 9 which Oracle also supports then the database does its own ' caching without using the buffer cache.    Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:46:06 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: ES40 Configuration * Message-ID: <3936934D.2D39ED93@uk.sun.com>   Dan Sugalski wrote:   D > At 10:54 AM 6/1/00 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >Dan Sugalski wrote: > > B > > > At 11:22 AM 5/31/00 +0100, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: > > >  > > > >Dan Sugalski wrote: > > > O > > > Oracle doesn't know what the heck it's talking about, then. It's possible O > > > that some other manufacturer has a cache problem (EMC or Sun, perhaps, or O > > > someone's software RAID), but it works fine for StorageWorks devices. You L > > > can shoot yourself by yanking the power or a drive before the cache isK > > > flushed, but operationally? No difference, just the speed boost and a . > > > larger danger window in case of failure. > > >  > > G > >No the cache problem you refer to is the problem you describe at the C > >end of you paragraph, namely that if you enable write caching on F > >a drive without a mirrored cache or NVRAM then you cannot guarantee > >the integrity of your data. > L > No, that is *not* the problem I refer to here Andrew. Oracle support says,I > and has said for a while, that having writeback caching enabled on your K > storage causes data corruption. Period. If their database burps, it's the L > first thing they tell you to turn off, because (or so they say) it must'veM > geeked up the data. This has nothing to do with database corruption because K > of power failure. They trot this one out regardless of *what* goes wrong. L > You could have a fully battery-backed redundant cache system hanging off aK > hideously over-spec'd UPS that hasn't shown power glitches for months, on I > systems where the drive conrollers show a full year uptime, and they'll  > *still* tell you this. >   > I would agree with you that having write back caching does notI directly cause your database to "burp", its the power failure that is the  initiator of the failure.   E However it is also obvious that from Oracles point of view enabling a A whole load of Volatile non mirrored caches is not going to ensure  data reliability.   B You however seem to be implying that Oracle also don't like peopleB using Non Volatile caches which I have never heard of being raised as an issue by Oracle.  H The customer I work for at the moment uses EMC storage for most of theirF Oracle database servers and they have a lot of them (1000 +) worldwideH and they all run with write caching enabled, the configurations they are# using are also supported by Oracle.   J Now this is actually a step back from Non Volatile mirrored caches because' EMC's don't have fully mirrored caches.    > I > >Oracle's advice in this respect is identical on all the platforms they C > >support. Use write caches that are mirrored and that have NVRAM.  > L > No, they don't. If your caches are mirrored and have NVRAM they still tellJ > you to turn them off if they're writeback. Got that advice relayed to meJ > from Oracle once. (This is bringing back old, annoying memories--thanks, > Andrew... :)  I They may have told you this but they havn't done so on any of the systems H that we currently have installed in the customer I am working for. I canL understand a scenario where Oracle is getting an unexplained data corruptionG and asks you to turn off write caching as a measure to determine if the 6 Array is the issue but I havn't seen this as an issue.  N Sybase used to qualify arrays as well as the OS and I remember them qualifying+ the Sun SSA with an NV write cache enabled.    > < > >This isn't an EMC/Sun problem its a OpenVMS/Tru64/Sun/EMC@ > >and any other platform combination you care to choose problem@ > >this problem also has nothing to do with software or hardware > >RAID.  L > To repeat, Oracle tends to blame any DB problem on writeback caches first,! > regardless of the circumstance.  >   D Well I can understand them suggesting as a last resort turning writeC caching off, but have they communicated this blanket dissaproval to  all the storage vendors.  ? There are only really three reasons for having a storage array, 4 ,write caches, disk connectivity and RAID 5 of which% write caching is the biggest benefit.   ; From the advice that Oracle is giving you and assuming that = you don't want to run RAID 5 then you will be better off with  a JBOD system and no array.    Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:51:54 -0500 5 From: "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@mbco.com>  Subject: FTP RMS errorG Message-ID: <37E2490BD9D6D111A6D00000F8BDC08503CF493E@mbs00112.mbc.com>   
 Greetings!  ; Does anybody have a quick fix to get around this FTP error?   - %FTP-E-OUTPROCF, Error processing output file 8 DISK$RAID8:[DB14.UDBTOOLS.20000531_1702]IADESCDB2Z.IXF;1  9 -RMS-W-RTB, 36496 byte record too large for user's buffer      Any help would be appreciated!   Douglas J Hipenbecker  Information Management Services  Miller Brewing Company
 Milwaukee, WI  dhipenbecker@mbco.com  414-931-2971 Pager 1-888-579-6903  <<...OLE_Obj...>>     ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:59:21 -05001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> ' Subject: Re: General discussion comment 8 Message-ID: <8h5q18$jnp$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  I With respect to V.A.C.S. we bought a couple of DS20Es late last year that L are running VMS and Oracle.  We might be buying a few more related items for another VMS project here RSN.    Dave...   @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:3935C38D.69C5EE19@earthlink.net...  > David A Froble wrote:  > >  > > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > > L > > > > VMS as you know it is in no danger of disappearing any time soon, so your > > > > livelihood is secure.  > > > J > > > Come look for an OpenVMS job here in Metro Chicago. You may discover > > > otherwise. > > B > > So, someone else got there first, likes it, and isn't leaving? > H > No - someone got there, got let go, and is not being replaced, because9 > the OVMS system he was maintaining is being replaced by  > {NT,LINUX,Solaris,???}.  > B > Give Dick Reichmann at V.A.C.S. a call (411, ask for V.A.C.S. inC > Shorewood, IL) and him how many orders he's had for new VMS-Alpha B > systems this year. (V.A.C.S. is the biggest OpenVMS VAR in Metro% > Chicago, http://www.vacs-inc.com/).  >    ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:35:57 GMT* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)' Subject: Re: General discussion comment + Message-ID: <PnJZIt$1c1uh@eisner.decus.org>   g In article <3935C38D.69C5EE19@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:   J > As for device support, let me go over one idea that would go over REALLY > big at many sites right now: > 7 > There exists a device known as a Castlewood Orb drive H > (http://www.castlewood.com/) - SCSI removable cartridge drive. CurrentH > capacity: 2.01 GB formatted (ODS2). Currently known to work (with some             ^^^^             ^^^^             ^^^^   	[snip]   G > ...and the price? Orb cart.'s are $39.95 retail, vs. thousands apiece F > for "certified OVMS supported" drives, or $100 or so each for DLT-IV > tape cart.'s.  >   < 	Ouch.. so it takes 20 Orbs to make 1 DLT IV?  How does that= 	make me excited?   BTW, DLT IVs can be had for less than $90 ; 	dollars (I actually got 100 of them for less than $80 once = 	and the guy let me know I was getting them near his cost, he ! 	didn't reveal his cost however).   7 > Know any sites that COULDN'T use something like that?   < 	Yeah, me.  I backup many Gigabytes per night, would take me 	15-20 Orbs per night...     				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 12:31:41 GMT 1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au> 5 Subject: Re: How do I fix RMS corruption of MAIL.MAI? . Message-ID: <8h5l3d$o4n$1@nina.pacific.net.au>  2 Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:D > I'm running OpenVMS Alpha v6.2, and my MAIL.MAI file appears to beD > corrupted. I have the option of restoring from backup, but I wouldF > prefer to repair the file if possible to avoid losing messages. I amG > aware of DSNlink articles addressing this, but my attempts to dial-up , > DSN ITS are failing (unrelated problem)...  3 > Here is what I get when I try to access the file:    > $ mail   > You have 79 new messages.    > MAIL> set file mail.bad    	Just a wild guess.... 	Try a compress :    	MAIL>COMPRESS  0 	It might fix the problem, who knows. Good luck.   			Csaba     > MAIL> set folder NEWMAIL? > %MAIL-E-READERR, error reading DISK$3:[GLENMARK.MAIL]MAIL.BAD 7 > -RMS-F-CHK, bucket format check failed for VBN = 1186 * > %MAIL-I-SELECTED, 1043 messages selected >    [...snip...]  I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush. I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:37:29 GMT  From: thirunavur@my-deja.com7 Subject: How to get a list of all Global section names? ) Message-ID: <8h5vvn$2jc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   A I need to get a list of all the Global Section names created in a C system. I could get the list using  SHOW GSD command through System F Dump Analyzer. But is there a way to read them directly in a C/Fortran- program? Any help will be highly appreciated.    Thanks,  Arasu Ramalingam    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 16:49:31 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) N Subject: Re: I/O cache - HSZ, was Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?)5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-h067o5xGomNU@localhost>   F On Sun, 31 May 3900 15:36:25, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:   ..  N > underlying disk access rate (improved somewhat, but not dramatically, by theN > ability to order the writes to take advantage of head position, but that canC > be done with system-software-managed write-back caching as well).  ..  F But isn't that John's point? Head position is the controller's job notF RMS or the ACP's. And isn't all of this discussion somewhat moot when E we take the clustering into consideration? As I said before, I don't  E really know a thing about how the VMS caching system actually works.  A I've read statements that imply it has none. Others that it has,  F Others that imply that that is what I'm doing if I meddle with the RMSF defaults. Is it described in the FAQ? I'd better have a check before I write myself into a hole :-)  C Actually, the more I think about it, e.g. the relationship between  D directory read/writes, Index and bitmaps and shared access with DLM 5 etc, the more I realise what a complex subject it is.    F In the old days when the CPU was responsible for talking direct to theD hardware registers perhaps there was greater scope for CPU/OS based E optimisation of writes. Now that the OS generates a SCSI command (or  B even higher level protocol) that is interpreted by an intelligent  controller there is less so.  F Most NT/DOS/Win9x and Linux configurations in private hands still work, the old way. All 4 of mine here do at least.  F Ultimately I suppose, it does come down to speed v. integrity. You payD your money and make your choice. VMS errs on the side of integrity. E Besides, if its too quick there's not enough time to think about the   mistake you've just made...:-)  
 Cheers - Dave    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:36:08 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> N Subject: Re: I/O cache - HSZ, was Re: Compaq not as bad as Andrew says (wish?)( Message-ID: <8h637h$hkb$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 Dave Weatherall <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-h067o5xGomNU@localhost... H > On Sun, 31 May 3900 15:36:25, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote: >  > .. > L > > underlying disk access rate (improved somewhat, but not dramatically, by the L > > ability to order the writes to take advantage of head position, but that can E > > be done with system-software-managed write-back caching as well).  > .. > H > But isn't that John's point? Head position is the controller's job not > RMS or the ACP's.   J Which is not to say that they can't provide some help - e.g., by choosing,H other things being equal, a group of writes targeted to a close range ofG volume LBNs to destage rather than scattering targets across the entire K volume:  drivers have been doing this kind of thing for at least 3 decades.   G And, of course, system-level write-back caching can be used without any E special (or even any additional:  it's often the best use to put some J existing memory to) hardware, so it's universally applicable, not just forL the wealthy.  And it avoids the millisecond-order latency of passing throughJ a SCSI adapter.  And it allows writes to be avoided altogether if the fileH is deleted before they need to go to disk (e.g., tmp files).  Etc., etc.  4  And isn't all of this discussion somewhat moot when, > we take the clustering into consideration?  L Not at all.  Don't forget that the basic rationale behind the DLM is that inJ *actuality* contention is rare (though of course it has to work right whenJ it occurs), so you can defer those writes that can safely be deferred justL as well in the cluster environment as in a single system as long as you makeK sure to do the right thing in the unlikely event that some other node needs = the data before it has made it to disk (which is a tricky but K well-researched problem:  the fact that most people aren't familiar with it 7 should not be misinterpreted as meaning it's unsolved).     As I said before, I don'tF > really know a thing about how the VMS caching system actually works.B > I've read statements that imply it has none. Others that it has,H > Others that imply that that is what I'm doing if I meddle with the RMSH > defaults. Is it described in the FAQ? I'd better have a check before I > write myself into a hole :-) > D > Actually, the more I think about it, e.g. the relationship betweenE > directory read/writes, Index and bitmaps and shared access with DLM 7 > etc, the more I realise what a complex subject it is.  > H > In the old days when the CPU was responsible for talking direct to theE > hardware registers perhaps there was greater scope for CPU/OS based F > optimisation of writes. Now that the OS generates a SCSI command (orC > even higher level protocol) that is interpreted by an intelligent  > controller there is less so.  J Actually, in some senses it gives the OS *greater* scope for optimization.J A basic tenet of caching is that you perform it as close to where the dataK is used as you can, for performance reasons.  The more layers exist between L the application and the disk, the more value there is in avoiding them until+ you actually have to move the data to disk.   H > Most NT/DOS/Win9x and Linux configurations in private hands still work. > the old way. All 4 of mine here do at least. > H > Ultimately I suppose, it does come down to speed v. integrity. You payE > your money and make your choice. VMS errs on the side of integrity.   I No, VMS errs on the side of a design created in the mid-'70s, when memory I was very limited, switching in and out of system context took significant I time (actually, this facet of RMS was in part inherited from RMS-11), and K memory-to-memory copying was s*l*o*w.  VMS/RMS in typical cases (writing to K non-shared sequential files, for example) doesn't force each record to disk J any more than Unix systems do:  it just typically destages buffers in much- smaller chunks, thus at much greater expense.    - bill  F > Besides, if its too quick there's not enough time to think about the  > mistake you've just made...:-) >  > Cheers - Dave    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:40:14 -0400 * From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>B Subject: Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-2- Message-ID: <3935E92E.392CC924@tsoft-inc.com>   1 "Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply)" wrote:  > L > Can I copy the sysuaf.dat from an OpenVMS VAX 7.1 system to an Alpha 7.1-2	 > system? O > Is there a better way of transferring the users? The nodes are clustered, but 
 > won't be > in the future. > --$ > ---------------------------------- >          Stephen Eickhoff  >           Havertown, PA $ > ----------------------------------  ) Probably.  Bet you liked that answer. :-)   O I've done this over larger version jumps.  Been lucky so far.  To increase your O chances of being lucky, do a few things.  DIR/FULL of the current file, and the O one distributed with the V7.1-2 distribution.  Look for differing recordsizes.  L Not absolute, since some unused area could have been set up in the past, andG then used in the new version.  Also, ANA/RMS on both files, looking for  differences.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596; 170 Grimplin Road               E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:26:44 +0200> From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>B Subject: Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-23 Message-ID: <8h5a5f$2cfj$1@s2.feed.news.oleane.net>   5 Don't forget that RIGHTSLIST.DAT goes with SYSUAF ...    Jean-Franois Marchal  X9000 - LYON    7 "David A Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message ' news:3935E92E.392CC924@tsoft-inc.com... 3 > "Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply)" wrote:  > > H > > Can I copy the sysuaf.dat from an OpenVMS VAX 7.1 system to an Alpha 7.1-2  > > system? B > > Is there a better way of transferring the users? The nodes are clustered, but > > won't be > > in the future. > > --& > > ---------------------------------- > >          Stephen Eickhoff  > >           Havertown, PA & > > ---------------------------------- > + > Probably.  Bet you liked that answer. :-)  > L > I've done this over larger version jumps.  Been lucky so far.  To increase yourI > chances of being lucky, do a few things.  DIR/FULL of the current file,  and the C > one distributed with the V7.1-2 distribution.  Look for differing  recordsizes.J > Not absolute, since some unused area could have been set up in the past, and I > then used in the new version.  Also, ANA/RMS on both files, looking for  > differences. >  > Dave >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596= > 170 Grimplin Road               E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  > Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:00:00 -0500) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> B Subject: Re: Moving sysuaf.dat from OpenVMS VAX 7.1 to Alpha 7.1-2. Message-ID: <sjcclels5ri44@corp.supernews.com>  F Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply) <operagost@e-mail.com> wrote:/ in message news:3935C859.FF5E57A8@e-mail.com...   3 > Can I copy the sysuaf.dat from an OpenVMS VAX 7.1 " > system to an Alpha 7.1-2 system?  L If the clustered systems are already sharing a common SYSUAF as recommended,* then you have your answer.  Copy away! :-)  I If not, there is a procedure documented for merging SYSUAF and friends in ? the OpenVMS documentation under the cluster setup instructions.   G It is equally applicable for splitting up a cluster, or any other quick 4 replication of accounts from one machine to another.  H Note that it is a MERGE, not a complete copy.  This is to make sure thatJ accounts for DECNET objects and other machine specific stuff in the SYSUAF# and RIGHTSLIST do not get replaced.   F For example, the passwords to the DECNET object accounts in the DECNETK database must match the ones in the SYSUAF.  Copy a replacement SYSUAF, and D you have just broken DECNET.  There may be other accounts / datafile relationships like that.  2 > Is there a better way of transferring the users?  0 Maybe, it depends on how you want to run things.  L Since almost all of my accounts were created by common scripts that accept aL datafile of users, I just run that script when building a new machine in the	 old days.   J Now all my accounts are copies of ones from a LAN server.  I use PathworksH to query it, and use the information from the query to build the accountH database.  It is basically an automatic procedure, so as soon as all theJ software is installed, the accounts install them self.  [They also disable0 themselves if needed based on the same database]  B If you use EXTERNAL AUTHENTICATION for passwords, it makes account maintenance a no-brainer.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 16:49:26 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) 3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS vs Tru64 Pathworks performance 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-HSxwd2MsE8VS@localhost>   < On Sun, 30 May 3900 19:38:16, Mark Iline - Info-VAX account  <ivax@meng.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:  H > This isn't an accurate comparison, but installing Office97 off a file  > service gives something like:  >  > Elapsed time	Server platform* > 5 minutes	NTAS 4 (450 MHz Proliant 1600) > 2 minutes	ASDU (PW500AU), > >10 minutes	PW 6.0 dual CPU DS20, VMS7.1-2   MarkF            just to get the scenario straight. Are you installing from $ a PW share _to_ a PW shared disk or C from PW to an NT/W98 local disk or something else?  And where does   that lovely registry live?  F Note, I'm not a defender of PW. I always used to blame it when our netF slowed down. We don't have too many PC's on the network now (security) so its not so much a problem.    Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:46:16 +0400* From: "Yuri Ermakov" <ermak@cbr.ryazan.su> Subject: Re: PATCHs / Message-ID: <8h52cu$i5g$1@summer.cbr.ryazan.su>   # ftp.service.digital.com/public/vms/   * "ezzaoudi med" <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma> ' news:393529BF.E5EF18BA@digitem.co.ma... ( > Where can I find patches for OpenVMS ? > Thank you  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:54:44 +0000 - From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  Subject: Re: PATCHs - Message-ID: <393632E4.4766930C@digitem.co.ma>    Thank you Mr ADRIAN  Adrian Birkett a =E9crit :   > Try; > 4 >  http://www.service.digital.com/patches/index.html > 
 > Regards, >  > Ade    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:13:53 +0000 - From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  Subject: Re: PATCHs - Message-ID: <39366191.C8B2B2A1@digitem.co.ma>    Thank you Mr YURI    Yuri Ermakov a =E9crit :  % > ftp.service.digital.com/public/vms/  > + > "ezzaoudi med" <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma> ) > news:393529BF.E5EF18BA@digitem.co.ma... * > > Where can I find patches for OpenVMS ?
 > > Thank you  > >  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:22:28 +0000 - From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  Subject: Re: PATCHs - Message-ID: <39366394.1916DF2E@digitem.co.ma>    thank you Ren=E8   Ren=E9 Verhaeghe a =E9crit :  ( > You could find all patches for  VMS on) > http://www.service.digital.com/patches/  > ----- Original Message -----/ > From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms ' > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:03 PM  > Subject: PATCHs  > * > > Where can I find patches for OpenVMS ?
 > > Thank you  > >  > >    ------------------------------   Date: 01 Jun 2000 13:53:39 GMT! From: choaglin@aol.com (CHoaglin) : Subject: problem with formatting drives on VAXstation 2000: Message-ID: <20000601095339.21943.00000310@ng-bk1.aol.com>  O I recently set up a VAXstation 2000 for formatting RD3x and 5x drives..all went K smoothly for a time, then it suddenly quit formatting them. Before, I could M start VSfmt and format hard disks with it, now if I choose 0 as the unit no., M instead of going ahead with the process, the system hangs and gives me a "_". K Halting the CPU and retrying it does the same thing. I don't think It's the M drive, since known working drives produce the problem as well. And if I hit 2 5 to go to the RX formatter, things go ahead just fine.   
 Any ideas?    
 Chris Hoaglin J <a href="http://www.omtsalvage.com">OMT Electronic Salvage & Recycling</a>K <a href="http://members.aol.com/choaglin/myhomepage/index.html">my personal  page</a>   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 09:13:50 -0400 4 From: "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: scsi disks on OVMS * Message-ID: <B55BD9D3-420FB@165.247.24.45>  A On Wed, May 31, 2000 2:42 PM, Donal Day <dbd@virginia.edu> wrote: I >I have a alpha workstation based on a "durango" mother board with a scsi B >controller interfaced to a Quantum 4.5 Gb Atlas II 3.5 inch disk. > F >I wish to add another scsi drive and would like to know if there is aF >limit to the disk size that I can iitialize and mount under OVMS 7.1? > > >I would be foolish to buy a 18 Gbyte and only see part of it.  D We recently had no trouble with 18 GB Quantums, and then got a 36 GBB Quantum that would not work at all.  (I think the problem shows upI when a drive announces itself as SCSI-3 instead of SCSI-2.)  The solution E is to upgrade to VMS 7.1-2, which is a rather painless upgrade.  The  A media kit for the upgrade cost us less than $20.  There are a few 2 patches which should be installed on top of 7.1-2.  % The upgrade made our 36 GB disk work.      ---------------------------  Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:59:45 +0000 - From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  Subject: Re: Telnet and License - Message-ID: <39365E41.E5493069@digitem.co.ma>    how can I do it ?      Jacek Tobiasz a =E9crit :    > Oswald Knoppers wrote: > >  > > ezzaoudi med wrote:  > > > 	 > > > Hi, A > > > I have probleme with telnet in Alpha OpenVMS configuration. F > > > When 200 users are connected with Telnet , no new connexion is =	 possible.  >  > Any OPCOM messaage ? >  > > > 4 > > > But I can do connection by Decnet ( set host).? > > > with UCX>SHOW SERVICE TELNET /FULL   I have a limit=3D320 E > > > I have a UCX license with UNIT=3D1050 .  Is it the probleme ??? ! > > > An Alpha VMS license =3D 15 ' > > > An Alpha VMS users license =3D 75  > > F > > My guess would be the total service limit set to 200. You should = see F > > this in a 'show comm' command. This limit can be increased withou= t  > > restarting UCX.  > ' > Yes, you mean Device_sockets ? Right.  > @ > Btw. I was told a story about some limit on telnet connections@ > with UCX (4.1/4.2 ?) It was about 200. Do not remeber details.# > (there was no way to increase it)  > 	 > regards  > Jacek    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:20:17 +0000 - From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>  Subject: Re: Telnet and License - Message-ID: <39367121.9AD33E68@digitem.co.ma>   & THANK you a lot Mister Oswald Knoppers  . My total service limit was 200 (ucx> show com) I used the command : ucx> set com / service=3D300" ucx> set config com /service=3D300   It works  fine !!        Oswald Knoppers a =E9crit :    > ezzaoudi med wrote:  > >  > > Hi, ? > > I have probleme with telnet in Alpha OpenVMS configuration. F > > When 200 users are connected with Telnet , no new connexion is po= ssible.  > > 2 > > But I can do connection by Decnet ( set host).= > > with UCX>SHOW SERVICE TELNET /FULL   I have a limit=3D320 C > > I have a UCX license with UNIT=3D1050 .  Is it the probleme ???  > > An Alpha VMS license =3D 15 % > > An Alpha VMS users license =3D 75  > F > My guess would be the total service limit set to 200. You should se= e D > this in a 'show comm' command. This limit can be increased without > restarting UCX.  > 
 > Regards, >  > Oswald   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:24:52 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) ( Subject: Re: Unneeed RMS overhead with C/ Message-ID: <393618dc.1125568@news.demon.co.uk>    Hi Hein,  $ I saw this and had my own 2p to add:  D I don't know if there's been much recent reworking of the non-sharedB sequential code - the last major work that I'm aware of was in the@ early V5.x timeframe.  At that time there was a lot of effort onB stripping instructions from the 'var/sqo path', since the machinesE were still slow enough that this was an important performance factor. ' Obviously a lot has changed since then.   D As you said, there isn't much excuse for not assuming RAH if there'sA been some number of previous sequential operations.  I personally @ don't know if 2 is quite enough, but surely some very low numberA should be.  At the time of the changes listed above, this sort of ? automatic detection wasn't added because it would impact on the : 'var/sqo path'.  Frankly, it's a trivial, isolated change.  D As for WBH, I've been sitting here trying to remember why RMS didn'tA do it.  I don't think it's because of the semantics -- in fact, I ? can't see how the full WBH semantics are any different from the A partial WBH semantics to the user.  In both cases, the successful ? completion of $PUT doesn't mean anything more than the data was D accepted into a buffer.  What I recall is that this is basically the? flip side of the RAH concerns -- notably concern about stalling C waiting for a buffer that RMS should have been able to get cleared. A WBH, therefore, is mostly a statement about the predictability of C buffer usage.  So, RMS should be able to detect multiple sequential A $PUTs, and turn on a 'soft WBH' state in much the same way as the B presumed RAH work (and similarly, turn it off if a surprise random $PUT show up).  D Unfortunately, none of this changes the basic problem that all files$ are flushed to disk at file close...   Jim.  7 On 31 May 2000 14:56 -0400, hein@eps.zko.dec.c*m wrote:   ` >In article <4.3.1.0.20000531125418.01e89630@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> writes...0 >>At 03:37 PM 5/31/00 +0000, Hoff Hoffman wrote:5 >>>:At 11:47 AM 5/31/00 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  > G >Hi, I was just passing through the neighbourhood and stumbled into the + >middle of this RMS thread. A few comments:  > 0 >First of, >>>> Unneeed RMS overhead with C <<<< > G >DEC C actually does NOT use RMS for plain unshared sequential file IO. E >They decided to do so precisely to avoid unneeded RMS overhead in C! L >Specifically they avoid the CMEXEC round-trip per record and the associatedD >argument probing and can more readily implement stuff like 'unget'. > F >This is good and bad. It is better on CPU time, but we have plenty ofG >that these days! They did not as good a job in IO as RMS can do and IO  >can never be fast enough. > I >Now VAXC and early DECC were really dumb in doing single block IO. Yuck. H >DECC now listens to most SET RMS parameters so at least you can specify$ >a large IO buffer size for example. > I >RMS, is probably too conservative, notably with respect to memory usage. J >But it is willing to listen to your superior application/system insights! > 4 >2 buffers, 16 blocks = 8KB each just is not enough. > M >Hundreds of buffers, each hundreds of blocks each for (potentially) hundreds M >of file opened by (potentially) hundreds for processes is probably too much.  >  >I suggest you try:  > = >	SET RMS [/SYSTEM] /SEQ /BLOCK=64 / BUFFER = 4 / EXTE = 1000 # >	SET RMS [/SYSTEM] /IND /BUFFER=20  > 7 >This will give you the bulk of all the potential gain.  > D >NOTE, multy-buffers are really only effective with the application F >specifically requesting READ-AHEAD and WRITE-BEHIND  (RAB: RAH, WBH).- >Not all applications/ language RTLs do this.  > F >There is little or no excuse for RMS not switching into RAH mode when? >more than one records it read sequentially... but it does not.  > B >Enabling WBH for all would go against the VMS philosophy of only J >allowing potential data loss when explicitly indicated by the application > D >For random IO to shared file the RMS design dictates write-through,F >but knows how to hold up through 'deferred write' = DFW if it is told* >that it is ok to take the increased risk.B >FORTRAN is one of the few (only?) language which sets that option/ >by default. COBOL has a handy interface to it.  >  ><end of brain dump> >  >hth,  >	Hein.  >    Jim Johnson  Software Exploration, Ltd.' Software Navigation and Discovery Tools    ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:42:24 GMT9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?+ Message-ID: <6Q3rtRtfbGTm@eisner.decus.org>   h In article <elkZ4.61$ru5.1966@typhoon.aracnet.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:J > In comp.org.decus David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:D >> Looks like someone ELSE sees the value/potential of VMS on Intel. > 4 >> Wonder what they know that DEC/Compaq doesn't....  ? They know that they (SRI) are not required to make a profit for  shareholders ?  L > One slight problem, OpenVMS V7.2 is supposed to be the last to support the > MicroVAX II.  A The issue of "support" from DEQ is different from "will it work". B When they dropped "support" for the 780 the report was that it was? to save money on testing for the ever-dwindling number of sites = using a 1 VUP machine from 1978.  They didn't actually remove 	 the code.   @ For those who are really concerned about "support", the question? would be how much will DEQ charge for a service contract on VMS  running on an Intel machine.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 12:55:45 GMT , From: bill@cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?+ Message-ID: <8h5mgh$fhn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   R In article <8h3qa2$pv5$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:I |> Well, after the initial inclination to parse 'VAX on Intel' as 'VMS on % |> Intel' passes, it becomes clearer.  |>  L |> Neat.  Interesting.  But is the ability to run VMS on it actually useful?O |> (I.e., is there anything like an approximate "PIII Mhz-to-VUPs" relationship C |> that could hint at whether VMS could boot on it in my lifetime?)   I Actually, it's a MicroVAX emulator.  Used a MicroVAX lately??  Any decent J 386 is faster than a MicroVAX.  It's like PDP-11 emulators.  I don't thinkK their looking for people to move from Alphas or S390s onto these emulators, F but if you are currrently running a businees on some old hardware withH canned packages that do what you want, these emulators offer a real goodK alternative to paying outrageous maintenance costs to keep the old hardware  running.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:21:34 GMT 0 From: carlini@true.lkg.dec.com (Antonio Carlini) Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?* Message-ID: <8h5ndt$13m@usenet.pa.dec.com>  T In article <6Q3rtRtfbGTm@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:A >For those who are really concerned about "support", the question @ >would be how much will DEQ charge for a service contract on VMS >running on an Intel machine.   K Or indeed whether you can legally purchase a licence for OpenVMS on such a  ) platform (I don't know, I have'nt tried)!    Antonio   I Antonio Carlini                            Mail: carlini@true.lkg.dec.com # DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Engineering 6 COMPAQ                                     Reading, UK   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:32:02 -0500 . From: "Wyer, Brett" <brett.wyer@telecheck.com> Subject: RE: VAX on Intel?< Message-ID: <F3167739ACCD8E449B71E0CF0059263D223C3F@tckmail>  H I don't understand this train of thought.  A VAX is a VAX is a VAX.  TheI only real difference between the platforms (memory capacity aside) from a L software standpoint is speed.  The docs clearly stated that the speed of theD Intel platform you're running on dictates the speed of the emulator.K Roughly 100Mhz to 1 VUP.  It's irrelevant whether it's emulating a MicroVAX : II, an 11/750 or a 6510 from a purely software standpoint.  G Of course, if you want to talk peripherals or SMP, it becomes relevant. G Otherwise, it would make no difference what platform they chose.  Quite I honestly, I'm surprised they chose the Q-Bus platform.  That creates some J significant complications that would have been easy to avoid if they would< have chosen a busless platform like the 3100 or 4000 series.   Brett   K > Actually, it's a MicroVAX emulator.  Used a MicroVAX lately??  Any decent L > 386 is faster than a MicroVAX.  It's like PDP-11 emulators.  I don't thinkC > their looking for people to move from Alphas or S390s onto  these 
 emulators,H > but if you are currrently running a businees on some old hardware withJ > canned packages that do what you want, these emulators offer a real goodD > alternative to paying outrageous maintenance costs to keep the old hardware
 > running. >  > bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:45:48 +0100 # From: Kevin B Black <kbb@ceh.ac.uk>  Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?) Message-ID: <s936772c.089@wpo.nerc.ac.uk>   5 >In article <8h3qa2$pv5$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  writes: B >|> Well, after the initial inclination to parse 'VAX on Intel' as 'VMS on & >|> Intel' passes, it becomes clearer. >|> E >|> Neat.  Interesting.  But is the ability to run VMS on it actually  useful? C >|> (I.e., is there anything like an approximate "PIII Mhz-to-VUPs"  relationshipD >|> that could hint at whether VMS could boot on it in my lifetime?) > C >Actually, it's a MicroVAX emulator.  Used a MicroVAX lately??  Any  decentE >386 is faster than a MicroVAX.  It's like PDP-11 emulators.  I don't  think A >their looking for people to move from Alphas or S390s onto these 
 emulators,B >but if you are currrently running a businees on some old hardware withD >canned packages that do what you want, these emulators offer a real goodC >alternative to paying outrageous maintenance costs to keep the old  hardware	 >running.  > : You will find it emulates the MicroVAX instruction set and "hardware", but doesn't = impede execution so that the performance you see is that of a  MicroVAX! The web < site gave the performance as being 1VUP per 100MHz the "host	 platform" @ (using the MV II with added string instructions). Of course that relationship dependsE on memory bandwidth and so on, but the web site made no mention about  whatD the measured host platform was, other than initial availability will be for "Intel". B It states that "The VMS performance increases linear with the host	 CPU clock @ frequency."; but would a 400MHz PIII with RAMBUS or PC100 memory really only B have 4 times the performance of the (old) 100MHz Pentium with 70ns memory?    Has anyone tried the demo?  < And what about the licencing of VMS etc? How will that work?   regards KevinBB.   ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:38:02 GMT0 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?& Message-ID: <FvHI4E.C14@world.std.com>  0 "Kevin B Black" <kbb@ceh.ac.uk> wrote in message# news:s936772c.089@wpo.nerc.ac.uk... 7 > >In article <8h3qa2$pv5$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd"  > <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 	 > writes: D > >|> Well, after the initial inclination to parse 'VAX on Intel' as	 > 'VMS on ( > >|> Intel' passes, it becomes clearer. > >|> G > >|> Neat.  Interesting.  But is the ability to run VMS on it actually 	 > useful? E > >|> (I.e., is there anything like an approximate "PIII Mhz-to-VUPs"  > relationshipF > >|> that could hint at whether VMS could boot on it in my lifetime?) > > E > >Actually, it's a MicroVAX emulator.  Used a MicroVAX lately??  Any  > decentG > >386 is faster than a MicroVAX.  It's like PDP-11 emulators.  I don't  > think C > >their looking for people to move from Alphas or S390s onto these  > emulators,D > >but if you are currrently running a businees on some old hardware > withF > >canned packages that do what you want, these emulators offer a real > goodE > >alternative to paying outrageous maintenance costs to keep the old 
 > hardware > >running.  > > < > You will find it emulates the MicroVAX instruction set and > "hardware", but doesn't ? > impede execution so that the performance you see is that of a  > MicroVAX! The web > > site gave the performance as being 1VUP per 100MHz the "host > platform" B > (using the MV II with added string instructions). Of course that > relationship dependsG > on memory bandwidth and so on, but the web site made no mention about  > whatF > the measured host platform was, other than initial availability will > be for "Intel". D > It states that "The VMS performance increases linear with the host > CPU clock B > frequency."; but would a 400MHz PIII with RAMBUS or PC100 memory
 > really only D > have 4 times the performance of the (old) 100MHz Pentium with 70ns	 > memory?  >  > Has anyone tried the demo?  I Yep, I've tried the demo and it is most cool. Have not as of yet tried to G execute VAX/VMS programs but will do so Real Soon Now. A review will be  provided in SKC.  G Sorry, I am unaware of license restrictions, etc. Suggest you visit the ) www.charon-vax.com site for more details.    cheers,    terry s    -- Terry C. Shannon. Consultant and Publisher, Shannon Knows Compaq shannon@world.std.com  http://www.acersoft.com  > > > And what about the licencing of VMS etc? How will that work? >  > regards KevinBB. >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jun 2000 09:07:54 -0400 4 From: "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com>6 Subject: Re: VAX VMS 7.2 Bug? ; backup/image/(no)alias* Message-ID: <B55BD86D-3CCDE@165.247.24.45>  G On Wed, May 31, 2000 10:20 PM, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote:  >VAX VMS 7.2 Update   F >1. I do a hot "BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=(INTER,NOBACK)/INIT" from DSA0: to
 >$1$DIA50:J >1a. this is from an RF35 to an RZ26; (we're trying to migrate to a larger >disk)  H Why do you expect to get a good copy when you use /ignore=interlock?  IfE you are running standalone backup, or booted from a CD or a different G disk, you can have exclusive access to the source disk.  Then you don't D need /ignore=interlock.  (But I don't think the current symptoms are
 due to this.)   @ And what about /verify?  Does backup report verification errors?  H >1b. it doesn't matter if I use /ALIAS or /NOALIAS with /IMAGE because IK >always get the same result. A couple of minutes into the backup, I receive  a G >warning indicating that ALIAS file "$DSA0:[SYS0]SYSCOMMON.DIR" was not I >backed up (this message is from memory and may not be exact; but you get  the 	 >picture)   G This alone should not be a problem, I think.  [000000.SYS0] _is_ backed G up, and it contains an (alias) entry for SYSCOMMON.DIR.  The _contents_ F of [SYSCOMMON...] are taken care of when [VMS$COMMON...] is backed up.* At least that's what's supposed to happen.  I >2. After the backup, I mount $1$DIA0: and many directories and files are   >missing including WRITEBOOT.EXE- >2a. Directory "[000000.VMS$COMMON]" is empty   D Don't know what happened, but at this point you're pretty much done.3 Lots of manual labor needed to make this disk work.      ---------------------------  Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:13:22 -0700 7 From: David D Miller <ddmiller@notes.west.raytheon.com> M Subject: Re: VAXCluster Principles book (was Re: Problem with resource	locks) F Message-ID: <OFC71B8C09.CEAC2EC0-ON072568F1.004DF98E@rsc.raytheon.com>  H Specifically, I suggest you write to Pam Chester, Pam.Chester@bhusa.com.   dave.     > In article <802568F0.006579EE.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>," steven.reece@quintiles.com writes: >  > C > This topic just keeps on coming up, time and time and time again.  > What can I say, except...  > 3 > Please, Please, Pretty Please Even Digital Press. F > Please can you do something about updating and re-issuing this book. >  > Steve Spires wrote:  >>>>I agree wholeheartedly!  > G > So, anyone at Compaq or interested and knowledgable parties... Are we 	 likely to I > see an update to this tome? The original is good, if a little expensive  here, D > but an updated alpha-ised version (relevant to OVMS 7.n?) would be
 better.<<<  @ I actually heard second-hand recently about someone from Digital@ Press being interested in beefing up their VMS repertoire. I may? or may not believe that, but it seems more likely than the idea A that people posting in this topic are interested.  Surely you are C not under the impression that people from Digital Press, a division > of another publishing company, follow comp.os.vms.  If you are> serious about wanting updates, mail a letter to Digital Press.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:55:34 +0100: From: "Dean Richard Benson" <dean.benson@remove_metrw.com> Subject: VMS Documentation. , Message-ID: <8h5oua$2s5$1@murrow.sp.trw.com>   Hi all.   8 I am looking to source some VMS documentation for my own@ collection (not a company).  I am a contractor and would find itB very useful to read up in a manual various sections whilst working on systems.   @ So my question is - does anyone know where I can get the printed* VMS documentation from for say - VMS 6.2 -  6 Also I have the CD ROM for the documentation, but as I9 believe, I would need a VMS machine to read this...unless 9 anyone can give me advice on how to read it under windows  perhaps?  8 I know Compaq hold the documenation on line as stated in@ the FAQ, but I am sure you can all apreciate an offline version.   Thanks for your help.    Dean.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:49:31 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS Documentation. ) Message-ID: <393677FB.177EF590@bbc.co.uk>    Dean Richard Benson wrote:  C >  So my question is - does anyone know where I can get the printed , > VMS documentation from for say - VMS 6.2 -  
 In a skip?   >  > 8 > Also I have the CD ROM for the documentation, but as I; > believe, I would need a VMS machine to read this...unless ; > anyone can give me advice on how to read it under windows 
 > perhaps?  9 You can read the VMS 7.2 Documentation CD on a windows PC @ with a web browser. Unfortunately, the web interface and the newA HTML friendly docs are not as user friendly as the old Bookreader E style, so global doc searches are out (unless I'm missing something).    >  > : > I know Compaq hold the documenation on line as stated inB > the FAQ, but I am sure you can all apreciate an offline version. >  > Thanks for your help.  >  > Dean.    --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:32:04 -0400 . From: Hank Vander Waal <hvanderw@novagate.com> Subject: RE: VMS Documentation. = Message-ID: <000601bfcbde$8aa1a1d0$949433cf@hank.mscmain.com>    Dean, L drop me a line and we can work something out I have the whole set if you are
 interested   Hank Vander Waal CIS  Hudsonville MI   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:34:18 GMT % From: Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com>   Subject: Re: VMS on the desktop?( Message-ID: <8h5s9a$3i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>  > In article <hshubs-207467.23034324052000@news.mindspring.com>,/   Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> wrote:  > E > IMO, SSU was too cool.  And the DECservers which performed the same  > function were even cooler.  @ Mot even "were" as the DECServer 90 and 900(?) are still currentG products although they are now manufactured by Cabletron. Interestingly B Cabletron are in negotiations with Compaq (amongst others) to sellE all the DEChub equipment back to Compaq. I can't remember now but did 9 DEC sell the networking business prior to the Compaqtion?  --
 Alan Greig    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 02:44:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> = Subject: Re: VMS V6.2 to V7.2 upgrade disaster (VAXsta 3138). , Message-ID: <39360641.300BBD91@videotron.ca>   sms@antinode.org wrote: M >>    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2     Major version id = 1 Minor version id  = 0 A > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00  > E > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT     Have you tried to boot minimal ?   B/1  SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1  "MIN" SYSBOOT> CONTINUE   K When you upgraded, did you install DECNET ? did you install the good decnet 3 (Decnet 4) or the complex  Decnet (DECNET 5) ? ? ?      * You may need to install DECNET separately.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:49:47 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>= Subject: Re: VMS V6.2 to V7.2 upgrade disaster (VAXsta 3138). ( Message-ID: <8h57kf$ssr$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  G The missing NET$CONFIG file inidicates that you've selected DECnet-Plus G and that it wasn't yet configured. No wonder since you're in the middle 
 installingL VMS. That error message is not a problem at this point, at least not for VMS to boot properly. 0 Do you see anything beyond that particular text?J Post the last 5 lines or so, that'll allow us to figure out where the boot process stopped.I It was suggested to boot minmal (B/1). Check in SYSBOOT if VAXCLUSTER was 	 set to 0.   
 Hans Vlems  , sms@antinode.org heeft geschreven in bericht  <00053123395602@antinode.org>...F >   I just tried to do a VMS upgrade on my VAXstation 3100 mod 38 fromC >V6.2 to V7.2 (Hobbyist CD-ROM), twice, with identical, unfortunate 	 >results.  > E >   The upgrade appears to work fine, but the final reboot fails like  >this: >  >[...]K >   OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2     Major version id = 1 Minor version id  = 0 @ >%DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > D >%DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT > < >[Attempts to re-boot, with same result.  Rinse.  Repeat...] > C >   Booting mini-VMS V7.2 from the CD-ROM ("b/10000000") works, but G >mounting the (normal) system disk fails.  No message, it just tries to C >reboot after the mount command ("mount /noass /ove = id dka200:").  > C >   Booting Standalone BACKUP V7.2 from the CD-ROM ("b") works, but  >the BACKUP command fails: > % >$ bac /ver /ima mka100: /rew dka200:  > F >**** Fatal BUG CHECK, version = X72TINVEXCEPTN, Exception while above. >ASTDEL or on [... (Long line does not wrap.)]F >[Register dumps, too long to transcribe from the workstation screen.] >  > E >   It appears to a naive observer that V7.2 hates DKA200:, a Seagate ? >ST5660N, while V6.2 has long been happy as a bivalve using it.  > F >   Has anyone else seen anything similar?  Any better theories on theG >cause?  Ironically enough, I was doing this to explore the better SCSI C >device support I keep hearing about with V7.2.  As Daffy Duck once - >asked, "Where did I take the wrong turning?"  > I >------------------------------------------------------------------------  > D >   Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)D >   382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)H >   Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work): >   sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work) >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:35:37 -0400 # From: Tom Brand <Tom.Brand@bmc.org>  Subject: What is KSPBA-CY?3 Message-ID: <p04310101b55c3fa408f3@[155.41.25.110]>   ; I've got a PCI I/O adapter, box is labeled as a 'KZPBA-CY'.   E Can anyone identify this thing?  I can't find it on Compaq site, nor  $ in the old System & Options catalog.     Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:58:39 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> " Subject: RE: Wildfire AnnouncementJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D80528433B@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   Andrew,   H Hey cool - anytime I get more than a paragraph response back from you, I know I hit a sore spot ..    :-)   L >>> Compaq pays Oracle a considerable amount of money for the OpenVMS, Tru64F ports of Oracle, you should get something back for your investment andI Larry's kind words are part of the deal. Don't read anything else into it  than that. <<<  K Really ? Are you implying that the head of Oracle will say anything for the K right price? Please confirm this is not what you meant. This is fud - plain , and simple (and not very nice fud at that).   " re: your focus on applications ..   J >>> Really, so who is Compaq working with to get e-Business apps availableH on OpenVMS. It isn't WebSphere, iPlanet, Ariba, Commerceone, Broadvision
 ATG, HP.<<  J So, do you have Compaq's list of who they are talking to ? How do you knowD this? You seem to have missed the point I made in the following url:L <http://www1.compaq.com/pressrelease/0,1494,wp%7E14583_2%21ob%7E30093_1_1,00 .html>   > From same url:C > "ISV Recruitment Program: Compaq is working closely with existing G > application partners, such as Oracle and SAP, and emerging ISVs(5) to G > deliver full e-business solutions for Compaq's Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS  > operating systems."   K Is this not the statement that those on this list have been waiting to hear I for some time? Granted, I am sure folks will want to wait and see what is J coming, but surely this is a good statement to be seen coming from Compaq?+ (ok, perhaps not from a Sun point of view).   K Again, check out this url and look at the reference names that are doing GS   Series (big Alpha's) on OpenVMS:4 <http://www.openvms.digital.com/gsseries/index.html>  ! Also check out these recent urls: - http://www.cognos.com/powerhouse/openvms.html F http://www1.compaq.com/ppresspaq/0,1497,wp~2442_2!ob~22030_1_1,00.html2 http://www.e-dbms.com/analysts/2000/benchmark.html  H Don't forget that eBusiness (once you strip the marketing fluff away) isF simply OLTP with web based front ends and improved business processes.I OpenVMS has a great background in this area and with the renewed focus on I GROWING the OpenVMS business (and applications available), I suspect this E will be seen as good news for both those on this list now and the new ' Customers I expect to see popping up ..    :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada  Professional Services  Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.com        -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ! [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com] % Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:05 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " Subject: Re: Wildfire Announcement     "Main, Kerry" wrote:   > Hello Andrew ..  > K > Just catching up on email and could not let you slide still more fud into . > the newsgroup without some sort of response: > C > >>> Compaq have not given OpenVMS the shot in the arm that people L > expected/hoped for and have treated it no better or worse than Digital did > in the Bob era.<<< > I > Check out the followng url and see if you recognize some of these names K > (like ETrade- one of top onlne investing site, Northernlight - the number " > one Internet search engine etc):6 > <http://www.openvms.digital.com/gsseries/index.html> >  > Or in the press:I > <http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/150/business/Hardware+.shtml> Boston  > Globe on Alpha May 29, 2000  > ( > On Alpha/OpenVMS/Tru64 and ISV support > L <http://www1.compaq.com/pressrelease/0,1494,wp%7E14583_2%21ob%7E30093_1_1,00 > .html>K > "Larry Ellison, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Oracle Corporation,  > said: I > "Compaq and Oracle have embraced the Internet as the standard model for K > computing, and today are taking customers to the forefront of e-business. L > Oracle software, coupled with the power of Compaq's AlphaServer GS series,F > creates one of the industry's most robust and reliable platforms for > e-business." >   H Compaq pays Oracle a considerable amount of money for the OpenVMS, Tru64F ports of Oracle, you should get something back for your investment and Larry's L kind words are part of the deal. Don't read anything else into it than that.  H Larry has said almost exactly the same things about Sun's, HP, and IBM's) its all about promoting the Oracle brand.    > From same url:C > "ISV Recruitment Program: Compaq is working closely with existing G > application partners, such as Oracle and SAP, and emerging ISVs(5) to G > deliver full e-business solutions for Compaq's Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS  > operating systems."   F Really, so who is Compaq working with to get e-Business apps availableH on OpenVMS. It isn't WebSphere, iPlanet, Ariba, Commerceone, BroadvisionI ATG, HP. The only major supplier of eBusiness applications infrastructure  thatB I know of that supports OpenVMS is BEA, but then if you want to doB personalisation say using ATG Dynamo with BEA WebLogic what should= you do since Dynamo does not run on OpenVMS or Tru64 for that  matter.   G Get real, you can't even use OpenVMS as a simple Web server in a lot of B these environments because people like BroadVision require Nescape3 Enterprise Server and they provide an NSAPI plugin.   A How about SSL crypto accelerators and key vaults got any of those : for OpenVMS, how about a WAP gateway, are you working with= any of the gateway suppliers. If this wasn't so sad you would I have to laugh Compaq has its own AXL200 PCI crypto accelerator which they B support on Novell, NT, Tru64, Solaris and Linux (but not OpenVMS).A How about a certificate management system, this is basic plumbing C if you haven't got these components you don't even get to enter the  race let alone finish.  > Come on Kerry these quotes are content free, there is precious@ little evidence that anything is actually happening. Sure Apache9 is coming out, but delivering Apache on OpenVMS isn't the  basis of an eBusiness strategy.   ; People on this newsgrou have complained that "anti OpenVMS" ? posts effect their livelyhood and no doubt they will think that  my post is "anti OpenVMS".  D They are wrong, I am ambivilent about OpenVMS, it isn't a competitorK to Solaris and is unlikely to be if your posts are the best there is. Sadly $ I consider it to be mostly harmless.  < What isn't harmless it the people on this newsgroup who need= OpenVMS to survive for their own careers to prosper being fed B a diet of marketing blurb without substance which makes them think= that perhaps they are safe and perhaps Compaq will secure the > future of OpenVMS. The fact is that over the last 2 years what% has happened to make them think this.   E Apache being ported (great its freeware why would this be a huge win) I Mozilla being ported (Netscape 4.x.x should have been on OpenVMS form the  start)< Compaq very occasionally mentioning OpenVMS in the odd pressG release (Wow how much does it cost for someone to add OpenVMS to NT and  Tru64)    J > Now, if I was really into fud, I would post the 1997 Sun announcement onG > Sparc III (now not expected in large servers until 2001), or question H > whether a single solution vendor is more capable than a multi-solutionJ > vendor to respond to Customers requirements, but I am not into that type of > stuff, so I won't.  G Why bother, this isn't about how Sun manages its product development or H how it markets Solaris/SPARC its about how Compaq preserves and developsD OpenVMS. What's the point of trying to throw FUD at Sun when Compaqs( own house is in such a disordered state.  K Do you thing that throwing FUD at Sun is going to improve OpenVMS's chances  of survival ??  I 99% of people who buy Sun's have either not ever heard of OpenVMS or have  excludedK it from their choice of platfrom for good reasons like the Compaq rep never 	 mentioned K it or the software they need does not run on it. Do you honestly think that  bashing , Sun is going to make them look at OpenVMS ??  D Isn't this just an easy excuse to avoid addressing the real issues ?  * Question: Where is the OpenVMS ISV program Ans:          Bash Sun3 Question: Where are the OpenVMS eCommerce solutions  Ans:          Bash SunE Question: How about giving OpenVMS away for free on Workgroup Servers  Ans:         Bash Sun E Question: When are Compaq going to get their own products like AXL200  running   on OpenVMS  Ans:          Bash SunH Question: How about bundling a free version of UCX with the Free OpenVMS licenses Ans:          Bash Sun  K Great, this really works for me, bashing Sun given the relative position of E Sun and Compaq is easy for someone from Sun to defend. Coming up with J something a bit more tangible to any of these perfectly sensible questionsG might give Sun and Compaqs other competition more cause for thought and I might be a bit more likely to preserve the jobs of the people who rely on F OpenVMS on this newsgroup. As it is Rob yourself and the other OpenVMS@ boosters are in my opinion doing these people a huge disservice.   Regards    > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architect  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:22:08 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Wildfire Announcement* Message-ID: <3936718F.8A52F062@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:  	 > Andrew,  > J > Hey cool - anytime I get more than a paragraph response back from you, I > know I hit a sore spot ..  >   < Nope as I said I view OpenVMS as being "mostly harmless" andA your response only confirmed my view. If it was designed to boost > the spirits of the other readers of this newsgroup who rely on? OpenVMS for their businesses or their jobs then it failed since F it only re-iterated posts that have been trotted out a number of timesA before. Rob Young posted stuff at least 18 months ago saying that ? ISV's such as Oracle and Sybase were in discussions with Compaq ? about using OpenVMS and Galaxies nothing has happened since and  your post is very similar.  N > >>> Compaq pays Oracle a considerable amount of money for the OpenVMS, Tru64H > ports of Oracle, you should get something back for your investment andK > Larry's kind words are part of the deal. Don't read anything else into it  > than that. <<< > M > Really ? Are you implying that the head of Oracle will say anything for the M > right price? Please confirm this is not what you meant. This is fud - plain - > and simple (and not very nice fud at that).   E Read it how you like, Larry turned up because Compaq is a partner who E Oracle get significant revenues from and who pay Oracle a significant F amount of money for their Oracle ports. If neither conditions had beenB satisfied then it would have been much harder to get him on stage.  J Larry has done the same thing for Sun, HP and IBM, you are being amazinglyK naive if you think that his appearance at the WildFire event is any form of A endorsement of OpenVMS over Solaris/HP-UX/AIX or any of the other  OS's that Oracle is ported to.  L > >>> Really, so who is Compaq working with to get e-Business apps availableJ > on OpenVMS. It isn't WebSphere, iPlanet, Ariba, Commerceone, Broadvision > ATG, HP.<< > L > So, do you have Compaq's list of who they are talking to ? How do you knowF > this? You seem to have missed the point I made in the following url:N > <http://www1.compaq.com/pressrelease/0,1494,wp%7E14583_2%21ob%7E30093_1_1,00 > .html>  D No I hav't I read press release it contains no information about who> Compaq are talking to apart from Oracle and SAP. It is a press? release and as press releases go is pretty content free. So who 8 are you talking to to get OpenVMS ports ????? or is this simply marketing BS ?   > I am more interested in why for example you cannot get Compaqs= own Crypto accelerator for OpenVMS, why none of the AltaVista 8 products run on OpenVMS, these are things within Compaqs? control and if you can't get this right then how can you expect < to get it right with ISV's. Yes I know Compaq sold AltaVista< but surely you kept some ties to future software releases on your platforms !!!!    >  > > From same url:E > > "ISV Recruitment Program: Compaq is working closely with existing I > > application partners, such as Oracle and SAP, and emerging ISVs(5) to I > > deliver full e-business solutions for Compaq's Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS  > > operating systems."  > M > Is this not the statement that those on this list have been waiting to hear K > for some time? Granted, I am sure folks will want to wait and see what is L > coming, but surely this is a good statement to be seen coming from Compaq?- > (ok, perhaps not from a Sun point of view).  >   B No sorry its just a statement, its been made before. Where are the; statements of support from the unnamed ISV's, why no SAP on 8 OpenVMS announcement, why no WebSphere/iPlanet/BEA/Ariba% HP statements of support for OpenVMS.   = Remember people have seen this all before but there have been 7 no positive results except that OpenVMS has become more 1 "harmless" because fewer ISV's have supported it.    > M > Again, check out this url and look at the reference names that are doing GS " > Series (big Alpha's) on OpenVMS:6 > <http://www.openvms.digital.com/gsseries/index.html> > # > Also check out these recent urls: / > http://www.cognos.com/powerhouse/openvms.html H > http://www1.compaq.com/ppresspaq/0,1497,wp~2442_2!ob~22030_1_1,00.html4 > http://www.e-dbms.com/analysts/2000/benchmark.html >   : Why choose Cognos, I know Powerhouse runs on on OpenVMS it@ has for ages but the eBusiness tools don't Powerplay doesn't and> Cognos refer to how easy it is to port from OpenVMS/HP MPE andH AS/400 to "Open" platforms in a number of their white papers, should youA be promoting what looks like a tool tha allows easy re-hosting of ) OpenVMS applications to other platforms ?   7 http://www.cognos.com/axiant/ax4glwp.pdf is a migration 1 guide for people moving apps from Legacy systems, ) Cognos mention OpenVMS, AS400 and HP MPE.    > J > Don't forget that eBusiness (once you strip the marketing fluff away) isH > simply OLTP with web based front ends and improved business processes.K > OpenVMS has a great background in this area and with the renewed focus on K > GROWING the OpenVMS business (and applications available), I suspect this G > will be seen as good news for both those on this list now and the new ) > Customers I expect to see popping up ..   < eBusiness may well be OLTP with web front ends with improved> business processes, but don't expect OpenVMS to participate in< this. Look at how these apps are being built, J2EE, EJB, C++? deployed using applications servers which with the exception of 7 Weblogic don't run on OpenVMS and the other bits of the 9 BEA suite don't so thats a problem, using web portals and 7 personalisation engines that don't run on OpenVMS, with 5 Web servers that don't run on OpenVMS and in a lot of ; cases databases that don't run or currently are unavailable  for OpenVMS.  3 Arguably OpenVMS may be OK for OLTP though there is : no realtive performance measure available to measure this,? but it simply does not have the building blocks that developers & building large eBusiness systems need.  @ I have been involved in the design of three very large eBusiness8 systems where there was and is no possibility of OpenVMS; playing a part because none of the building blocks selected 8 or shortlisted run on OpenVMS. I doubt that the contents> of your press release offer any improvement in this situation.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.305 ************************