1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 10 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 322       Contents:& 7.2-1 update 0100 contains PCSI patch?* Re: 7.2-1 update 0100 contains PCSI patch?" Re: blocks incorrectly marked free" Re: blocks incorrectly marked free" Re: blocks incorrectly marked free" Re: blocks incorrectly marked free" Re: blocks incorrectly marked free/ RE: C bashing (was Re: VMS File Caching Futures > Re: Canadian Association of Compaq Users Symposium rescheduled> Re: Canadian Association of Compaq Users Symposium rescheduled Re: future of PMDF and VMS Re: future of PMDF and VMS Re: Get me outa here!  Re: Get me outa here!  memory allocation mystery  Re: memory allocation mystery  Re: memory allocation mystery  Re: memory allocation mystery  Re: memory allocation mystery  Re: MMOV 2.2 and VMS 7.1* modifying all users in group via authorize. Re: modifying all users in group via authorize. Re: modifying all users in group via authorize. Re: modifying all users in group via authorize. Re: modifying all users in group via authorize% Re: Question on using ASTs for output  Recording CD's on VMS  Re: Recording CD's on VMS , Re: Submit /After delta time format question, RE: Submit /After delta time format question, Re: Submit /After delta time format question, Re: Submit /After delta time format question Re: TAR FOR VMS? Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  RE: VAX on Intel?  RE: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: vaxstation LED meanings? Re: vaxstation LED meanings? Re: VEST / DECmigrate ; Re: Which cpu does Sun server use: I386, Mip, Ppc or Alpha? ; Re: Which cpu does Sun server use: I386, Mip, Ppc or Alpha? ( WIDESPREAD INCOMPETENCE AT BELL ATLANTIC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 19:33:51 GMT 2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)/ Subject: 7.2-1 update 0100 contains PCSI patch? , Message-ID: <8hrgqv$h44@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ; Does VMS721_UPDATE-V0100 supercede VMS721_PCSI-V0100 or no?    The former lists only:  G  ECO Kits Superseded by This ECO Kit:  VMS721_DS20E_ES40-V0100          8                                        VMS721_F11X-V0100G                                        VMS721_FIBRECHAN-V0200           <                                        VMS721_GRAPHICS-V0300G                                        VMS721_PTHREAD-V0100             =                                        VMS721_SHADOWING-V0100 7                                        VMS721_SYS-V0200   F yet within it it I find the same problems resolved as in the PCSI kit,% like this randomly selected snippet:    &                       Images Affected:0                         -  [SYSEXE]PCSI$MAIN.EXE/                         -  [SYSLIB]PCSI$SHR.EXE   T                    o  The following duplicate error messages reported  by  the  PCSI?                       utility display during a product upgrade:   W                         %PCSI-E-INSVOLSPC, insufficient space on volume DISK$ALPCSI_SYS V                          -PCSI-I-VOLSPC, 159261 required; 124344 available; -34917 net?                          Terminating is strongly recommended.   ;                          Do you want to terminate? [YES] no   W                         %PCSI-E-INSVOLSPC, insufficient space on volume DISK$ALPCSI_SYS M                          -PCSI-I-VOLSPC, 159261 required; 124344 available; -      So which part is right?    Thanks,    David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 20:08:53 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)3 Subject: Re: 7.2-1 update 0100 contains PCSI patch? 6 Message-ID: <8hrisl$j0u$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  - In article <8hrgqv$h44@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,  4 mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:  < >Does VMS721_UPDATE-V0100 supercede VMS721_PCSI-V0100 or no?  A Without looking up the details of these two kits, I know that the D VMS721_PCSI-V0100 contains ONLY the fixes/updates for the POLYCENTERJ Software Intallation (PCSI) utility.  It appears that VMS721_UPDATE-V0100 D also contains PCSI utilty fixes/updates.  I do not know which set ofC PCSI utility fixes/updates is the "newer" one, but, fortunately, it  does not matter.  C The PCSI utility reads information from the kit and, based on that  G information and similar information in the PCSI database on your system C it "knows" whether the installed imags or the images in the kit are C the "newer" ones.  So, just install both and you will get the right A results... well, in general -- but there is one extra thing here.   H I suggest you install the VMS721_PCSI-V0100 kit first.  That will ensureL that you have a more recent PCSI utility to install the VMS721_UPDATE-V0100 E kit.  (Even if it is not the _most_ recent, having a more recent PCSI  is a good idea at this point.)  B To understand how this works, look up the GENERATION option on theF FILE statement in the PCSI Utility Developer's Guide.  Basically, eachF file in the OpenVMS operating system kit has a generation assigned andI each file in these remeidal kits also has a generation.  The PCSI utility G always chooses the file (kit or installed) with the highest generation. I OpenVMS engineers assign these generations to ensure that each successive + verion of an image has a higher generation.    --  K     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USA F          (hammond@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:13:59 +0200> From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>+ Subject: Re: blocks incorrectly marked free 3 Message-ID: <8hrc30$21mh$1@s2.feed.news.oleane.net>   B "Lyle W. West" <lyle.west@childrenshc.org.nospam> wrote in message0 news:3940E85D.100BF61E@childrenshc.org.nospam...  H > Actually, that article contains 2 source examples, one for Vax and oneD > for Alpha. The Alpha example is in the second half of the article.E > However, I didn't take the time to build the Alpha version so if it ' > does not work, feel free to blast me.   J The first time I made the mistake to cut header and trailer of the article< so what I tried to compile was the two programs together :-)8 But anyway the ALPHA program does issue sanity messages.I I linked it, and it runs. The search is teribly long on a 10Krpm 9Gb disk  ... = The information returned on an "incorrecly marked free" block ( was LBN xxxx is not allocated to a file.J I analyzed my disk once more, and the same block was listed as incorrectly ...    Don't know who to trust.  
 Jean-Franois    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:09:19 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> + Subject: Re: blocks incorrectly marked free & Message-ID: <394132CF.D2BA642@srv.net>  B If you get that error during an anal/disk, I recommend running the? anal/disk a second time just to be safe. It will sometimes then  flag them back the other way.   > This is usually caused on my system after an autogen creates a= new page/swap file, and the previous version was purged while 
 still in use.      "Jean-Franois Marchal" wrote: >  > Bonjour  tous ... > C > Running analyze/disk, I got some "blocks incorrectly marked free" E > messages. As I already had to repair my disk yesterday for the same C > reasons, I'd like to identify what files are affected, suspecting B > Advanced Server (7.2A on OpenVMS Alpha 7.2-1 + current patches). >  > I found a example in DSNH > "Example-MACRO Givent an LBN, how to find the file it is allocated to" > G > But when I can't compile with $ MACRO FIND_LBN.MAR (ends with errors)  > * > How could I build the executable image ?( > Will it run on an ODS5 shadowed disk ? >  > Cordialement ... >  > Jean-Franois Marchal  > X9000 - LYON   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:19:38 +0200> From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>+ Subject: Re: blocks incorrectly marked free 3 Message-ID: <8hrccc$21pg$1@s2.feed.news.oleane.net>   , "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message  news:394132CF.D2BA642@srv.net...D > If you get that error during an anal/disk, I recommend running theA > anal/disk a second time just to be safe. It will sometimes then  > flag them back the other way.  > . That's what I did (with no repair atth moment) The same messages perdue.     @ > This is usually caused on my system after an autogen creates a? > new page/swap file, and the previous version was purged while  > still in use.   J The system had NO other activity than Advanced Server shares on that disk.   Merci ! 
 Jean-Franois    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 11:54:43 -0700 * From: dunnett@mala.bc.ca (Malcolm Dunnett)+ Subject: Re: blocks incorrectly marked free , Message-ID: <jvtigEGralet@malvm2.mala.bc.ca>  + In article <39412614$1@news.kapsch.co.at>,  /    eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes: v > In article <8hr7em$203a$1@s2.feed.news.oleane.net>, "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr> writes:C >>Running analyze/disk, I got some "blocks incorrectly marked free"  >>messages.  > N > Bad sign. That's is the first step. And the next step will then be "multiply- > allocated blocks" and BINGO, you lost data.  >   C    Maybe. However this might just be a bogus error if the disk was  < accessible for writing while the analyze was performed. If a; file allocation changes during the analyze then the program ; will see an index file bitmap which is inconistant with the 9 file headers it sees, which can cause this error message. B Before panicing I'd mount the volume read-only and try the analyzeC again. If that isn't possible you could try an analyze/disk/repair, @ which will lock the filesystem while it runs and should thus getD a consistant picture ( note: make sure you have a good backup before@ trying an analyze/disk/repair - just in case something is really wrong ).   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:21:26 GMT / From: Hans.Bachner@altavista.net (Hans Bachner) + Subject: Re: blocks incorrectly marked free * Message-ID: <39417b45.8332992@news.aon.at>  L "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr> wrote on Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:19:38 +0200:   <snip>K >The system had NO other activity than Advanced Server shares on that disk.  <snip>  I While you run your ANALYZE /DISK there's lots of opportunity that some PC & creates/deletes files in these shares.  L Dismount the disk (when it has no more files open), mount it privately (i.e.N without /SYSTEM, /CLUSTER & friends) and run the analysis again, and the Macro* program as well. Let us know what you get.    : ---------------- speaking only for myself ---------------- Hans Bachner Compaq Computer Austria + Compaq Customer Services - Software Support  E-Mail: Hans.Bachner@compaq.com    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 21:19:14 CDT = From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.044962.killspam.0138 (Wayne Sewell) 8 Subject: RE: C bashing (was Re: VMS File Caching Futures. Message-ID: <Q0iliMT72uNW@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  ` In article <C15945A9D9EFCF11BA8B08002BBF1CCC0CD71A@BERRY>, John Vottero <John@MVPSI.com> writes:   [stuff deleted]    >  > How about: >  >   if (xyz = abc)	 >       {  >       dothis(); 	 >       }  >  > or maybe:  >  >    for (i=0; i<100; i++); 	 >       {  >       do that();	 >       }  >  > or maybe this: >  >    /* ) >    **  C comments keep going and going!  >    *\  <---oops!' >    printf("This will never print\n");  >  >    /* " >    **  And, there are no errors! >    */ C >    printf("C has lots of problems, that's why there's C++ :)"\n);  >     < I just thought of another one that bit me a couple of times:   	do_something;   when you meant to say:   	do_something();  L Where do_something is the name of a function that does not need parameters. N This is easy to do if you shift back and forth between languages, because mostK other languages don't require an empty parameter list if none are expected, & i.e. the first line would have worked.  F Strangely, C just treats this as a NOP, i.e. nothing happens.  I don'tL understand the purpose of this, since if you *meant* to do nothing, a simpleM empty statement (;) would have made the intent more clear.   In the meantime, I you wonder why in the hell the procedure didn't execute until you finally M notice the missing parens.   Beats me why this isn't considered an error.  It L is my understanding that the statement is considered a *data* definition and just skipped over.  Whatever.   O By the way, the =/== error is also more common for language shifters, since the N "=" operator is used in most other languages (though I think fortran uses .eq.J and the like).  If you shift back and forth between C and Pascal and don'tM switch syntaxes cleanly, C will accept some of the Pascalisms and just do the O wrong thing, while Pascal will object strenously to the C-isms and force you to 	 fix them.    --  O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== C Jake Blues: "Sell me your children!  How much for the little girl?"    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:51:06 GMT . From: "Curtis Rempel" <curtis.rempel@home.com>G Subject: Re: Canadian Association of Compaq Users Symposium rescheduled : Message-ID: <Kpf05.8376$Xn5.128251@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>  A "Dr Alain Legault" <alain.legault4@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 4 news:jH405.50343$uw6.986806@news20.bellglobal.com... > > Talk is cheap. > 0 > So is "Monday morning Quaterbacking"... :-)))) > D > > I spoke with three people at work just today with the exact same	 empirical = > > data.  I suggested they send their requests to you Alain.  > >  > E > Communication is a two way process and to blame "everything" on the B > "emitter" is simplistic.  I can't help but to detect a strain ofK > "entitlement" posturing....which is one of the reasons of the downfall of E > the relationship between DECUS and DEC worlwide.  This predated the $ > "acquisition" by a very long time. >  > Alain Legault   G I'm not sure of the relevance of your remarks.  I was just relaying the D plain and simple facts of the matter.  Yes, it is a two way process,H however, it seems that the data shows it was one way only into the DECUSK Canada black hole.  Members of any organization are "entitled" to responses H from those in a position of authority.  That is a given, there can be noL dispute over that.  To suggest that the membership is not entitled to even aK miniscule response is preposterous.  If I have misinterpreted your remarks,  please say so.  K You and Ron seem to be the only "live" bodies around and so my point of the H message was that any correspondence that is intended to have a hope of aK response should be directed your way.  You should take that as a compliment  as it was intended.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:55:09 GMT 6 From: "Dr Alain Legault" <alain.legault4@sympatico.ca>G Subject: Re: Canadian Association of Compaq Users Symposium rescheduled ; Message-ID: <1eh05.47976$dK2.1049797@news20.bellglobal.com>   I > I'm not sure of the relevance of your remarks.  I was just relaying the F > plain and simple facts of the matter.  Yes, it is a two way process,J > however, it seems that the data shows it was one way only into the DECUSC > Canada black hole.  Members of any organization are "entitled" to 	 responses J > from those in a position of authority.  That is a given, there can be noL > dispute over that.  To suggest that the membership is not entitled to even a D > miniscule response is preposterous.  If I have misinterpreted your remarks, > please say so   I I'm sorry you read my remark as saying that "entitlement" referred to the  relationG between the organization and the members.  I was referring (albeit in a0 cryptic waySJ for people who haven't lived from up close the death of DIGITAL and DECUS) toH a prevalent feeling in the 90's in some part of the membership that they were "entitled"s8 to everything they could think of  from "UNCLE DIGITAL".  J Membership is entitled to a prompt, courteous and accurate response to its queries.L Somehow this failed not because the board refused to respond but because theG link (quite literally) did not seem to be there.  How did this happen ?e Your analysis or' guess is as good as mine on this point.t  H I don't really give a damn about who is right or wrong in all of this as long as we get thiso thing fixed.     .y >lI > You and Ron seem to be the only "live" bodies around and so my point ofa theoJ > message was that any correspondence that is intended to have a hope of aB > response should be directed your way.  You should take that as a
 compliment > as it was intended.o  J I did and more than welcome any comments or questions people are likely toI send me.....insults will as always find a shortcut to the recycle bin (non pun intended).  
 Alain Legaultr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:10:01 -0600e1 From: Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> # Subject: Re: future of PMDF and VMSe4 Message-ID: <394116D9.2CD74875@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>   JF Mezei wrote:l   M > If you are unconfortable with PMDF's future, you may want to look at OfficemJ > Server (ALL-IN-1) with provides character  cell, POP IMAP as well as WEB > access to your emails. > 3 > The SPD is at http://www.digital.com/info/SP6149/:  B I may have been reading the docs wrong, but it appears that OfficeC Server's web access only works via an NT Server running IIS. Have I- misunderstood this?0  E If I could run Office Server's web access via a VMS-native web serverc5 (preferable OSU) I would install it in a heartbeat...    Glen   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 17:56:43 -0400V- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>K# Subject: Re: future of PMDF and VMS2, Message-ID: <39416811.BF028799@videotron.ca>   Glen Martin wrote:D > I may have been reading the docs wrong, but it appears that OfficeE > Server's web access only works via an NT Server running IIS. Have IR > misunderstood this?   L I checked the SPD for the web add-on ( http://www.digital.com/info/SP6155/ )< and you seem to be right. I'll try to get more info on this.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:51:39 GMT  From: jbecker@ui.urban.org Subject: Re: Get me outa here!) Message-ID: <8hrsdm$n2t$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   . In article <Pine.OSF.4.10.10006080945240.1681-# 100000@gator1.brazosport.cc.tx.us>, 5   Janet Hickner <jfeltner@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:o: > I know that this is NOT the way I am supposed to do this but...........A > All messages sent to the subscribe/unsubscibe address come back 
 telling meG > that I am not subscribed. Well that's great, cause I don't want to be H > subscribed! But I am getting tired of deleting 200-300 messages a day.   I suspect one of the following:r9 - The e-mail address you subscribed is a variation of the 8 address you tried to unsubscribe. For example, maybe you7 subscribed jfeltner@gator1.brazosport.cc.tx.us, but youI2 tried to unsubscribe jfeltner@brazosport.cc.tx.us.6 - You subscribed some other address which is set up to' forward e-mail to your current address.h  F > Things like this make me wonder just what I was on when I decided to go > into the computer industry!-   The right track, of course!e   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/)n3 DECUS ESILUG (http://eisner.decus.org/lugs/esilug/)c    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:55:43 -0700q# From: Mark Tarka <markZERO@mcn.net>i Subject: Re: Get me outa here!" Message-ID: <3941AE2F.DDB@mcn.net>   jbecker@ui.urban.org wrote:i	 [snip...] 7 >   Janet Hickner <jfeltner@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:L< > > I know that this is NOT the way I am supposed to do this > but...........C > > All messages sent to the subscribe/unsubscibe address come backp > telling meI > > that I am not subscribed. Well that's great, cause I don't want to beoK > > subscribed! But I am getting tired of deleting 200-300 messages a day. h! > I suspect one of the following:t; > - The e-mail address you subscribed is a variation of thee: > address you tried to unsubscribe. For example, maybe you	 [snip...] H > > Things like this make me wonder just what I was on when I decided to > go > > into the computer industry!i > The right track, of course!u  8 So ya say...hacker!  Tell me, if ya can, are you willin': ta save my poor soul from the pit of Linux diversity (i.e. the many flavors of....)?   : I had posted earlier, that I was looking to max the amount: of system memory on a DECstation 425c (16 MB).  Well, I've7 done that...with a box purchased for $35 from the locals9 Salvation Army store and another retreived from the trash = at the university here.  Well, this ng wasn't the right place 1 to discuss that; I know better now...but read on.   : I'm thinking about taking that DS425 PC and sterilizing it9 (wiping out all the MS-DOS and Win 3.11), then give it a n: Linux fix (which vein? Red Hat 5.2? :-)  Yes, I know...theA usual plan is to bring up the system through DOS...maybe Windows,r for sure using a CD-ROM.  = Seems like it wouldn't be too much trouble to get a boot diskk1 together...kernal, plus rawrite.exe, fips.exe....   B What I'm posting about to this ng at this time, to those I haven't6 yet thoroughly pissed-off, _yet_, is basically a plea.  > The Linux environment appears to me to be the same as the U*IXC one...lots of variations...hard to determine if you and what you'res- reading or listening to are on the same page.   B What I'm asking is this:  anyone here willing to help get me up to= a point where I've got hardware that'll give me a platform toy@ launch some VMS hobbyist licensed software?  This'd be a low low= cost situation (e.g., I'd be willing to take a Grayhound ridelB over to your place to pick something up).  A well-equipped VS 4000A a VT 320, keyboard, and some manuals would be a nice start.  Yes?I? Those with good long term memory will recall that I had some ofa? this stuff at one time...well, no longer -- and that universityyA is about to be on its way to the district court for round two :-)   F Otherwise, I suppose I'll have to become an Open Linux sort of guy :-)    G   Mark  (There must be something I can say to once again get you reallya ....)a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 18:25:49 GMT 2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: memory allocation mystery, Message-ID: <8hrcrd$efc@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  H Many programs have been failing in odd ways and it finally dawned on me G that there might be something odd about the memory allocation in DEC C.rC (One of the ways has been that the fprintf(stderr,"message); lines tB following a failed malloc were not actually getting to SYS$ERROR.)   $ cc/verF DEC C V6.0-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1         (on a DS10 with 384 Mb)  * (Yes, I know, I need to upgrade anyway...)  I I wrote two programs "HEADROOM" and "MAXMEM" (see after my signature) to  J test this.  The former tries to allocate as much memory as it can by doingJ a series of 1Mb mallocs, then 100kb, etc.  The second keeps trying to grabI as much memory as it can by incrementing the allocation size by 1 Mb, and G releasing the memory, then trying again if successful.  Naively I would G have thought the results should have been close.  In the first instanceiH memory is allocated in bug chunks, then smaller, and smaller chunks, butK free() is never called, so it should allocate memory with no gaps or holes. H In the second case it should just give the biggest chunk of memory at an even 1M multiple.   I Surprisingly, the two methods differ by greater than a factor of 4 in the1) amount of memory that they can allocate! j   $ r headroom1 malloc size   1000000 works up to  10000000 bytesk1 malloc size    100000 works up to    600000 bytesl1 malloc size     10000 works up to    100000 bytesm1 malloc size      1000 works up to     12000 bytesg1 malloc size       100 works up to      1200 bytesi1 malloc size        10 works up to       160 bytesI1 malloc size         1 works up to        19 bytesw maximum allocated was 10713379
 $ r maxmem! malloc works up to 46000000 bytesd
 $ sho workB   Working Set (pagelets)  /Limit=2032  /Quota=4064  /Extent=196608I   Adjustment enabled      Authorized Quota=4064  Authorized Extent=196608e  ?   Working Set (8Kb pages) /Limit=127  /Quota=254  /Extent=12288oG                           Authorized Quota=254  Authorized Extent=12288-   Is this a bug or a "feature"?0   Thanks,u   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu:? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech 2  J **************************************************************************  
 /* headroom.cO  : uses up all memory in sequential mallocs, no free() calls.   */   #include <stdlib.h>l #include <stdio.h>  ! int main(int argc, char *argv[]){l int i,j,k,count; int *block;c
 int valid;    %  for(count=0,k=1000000; k>0; k=k/10){h)    for(valid=0,i=0, j=k; i < 2000 ; i++){i       block = malloc(j*i);       if(block == NULL){T          (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc size %9d works up to %9d bytes\n",k,j*valid);          break;f       }g       else{a         valid=i+1;         count += k;        }u    }  };  (void) fprintf(stdout,"maximum allocated was %d\n",count);   exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);     i }h    K ***************************************************************************h     /* maxmem.cy  M Usage:  % maxmem        runs through tests to see how much memory it can get /+         % maxmem 1000   tests that one sizee   */   #include <stdlib.h>  #include <stdio.h>  ! int main(int argc, char *argv[]){c int i,j; int *block;n    block=NULL;    if(argc==2){s%       (void) sscanf(argv[1],"%d",&j);-       block = malloc(j);       if(block == NULL){@          (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc failed at %d bytes\n",j);!          exit(EXIT_FAILURE);     f       }s       else {C          (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc succeeded at %d bytes\n",j);r          free(block); !          exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);             }T    }  '    for(i=0, j=1000000; i < 2000 ; i++){v       block = malloc(j*i);       if(block == NULL){H          (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc works up to %d bytes\n",j*(i-1));!          exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);     t       }w       else{          free(block);       }a    }B    (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc works up to %d bytes\n",j*(i-1));    exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);     w }.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 18:48:51 GMTm2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)& Subject: Re: memory allocation mystery, Message-ID: <8hre6j$fhu@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  a In article <8hrcrd$efc@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:4  : To quote the immortal Roseanne Rosanna-Danna:  NEVER MIND.   There was a bug in headroom:         block = malloc(j*i);   should have been         block = malloc(k);  & after that the results are comparable.   $ r headroom1 malloc size   1000000 works up to  47000000 bytes 1 malloc size    100000 works up to         0 bytes)1 malloc size     10000 works up to     20000 bytes;1 malloc size      1000 works up to     11000 bytes 1 malloc size       100 works up to      1600 bytes 1 malloc size        10 works up to       120 bytesp1 malloc size         1 works up to         3 bytes  maximum allocated was 47032723
 $ r maxmem! malloc works up to 46000000 bytesf  : One sure way to find a bug in a program is to post it :-(.  H It is kind of interesting though that you can get 1600 bytes more in 100G byte mallocs  after a 1kb malloc failed.  The memory allocation scheme o& must be leaving small holes somewhere.  ! Sorry about the wasted bandwidth,    David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:43:28 GMT2 From: malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg)& Subject: Re: memory allocation mystery+ Message-ID: <Xuv3B96UpCFV@eisner.decus.org>   - In article <8hre6j$fhu@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, a<   mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.education (David Mathog) writes: > < > One sure way to find a bug in a program is to post it :-(.  I Yes, and you usually discover that before you receive the corrections :-)t  sJ > It is kind of interesting though that you can get 1600 bytes more in 100I > byte mallocs  after a 1kb malloc failed.  The memory allocation scheme  ( > must be leaving small holes somewhere.  I Try storing your HEADROOM stats in a static array, and then printing themt! out after all the tests are done.l  M That way you can see if what the compiler is doing with printf() is affectingt
 your results.   ; I am assuming that you ran your tests compiled /NOOPTIMIZE?r   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 20:27:50 GMT=2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)& Subject: Re: memory allocation mystery, Message-ID: <8hrk06$iqj@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ` In article <Xuv3B96UpCFV@eisner.decus.org>, malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg) writes: >=N >That way you can see if what the compiler is doing with printf() is affecting >your results.  L Understood.  But I want the printf() to stay in there as this is an attempt I to uncover a memory problem problem in some code that does use printf.  (pL That is, printf(stderr,"message") never comes out after malloc failure, but L so far I have not been able to reproduce that even when I can't malloc more E memory.  So maybe the problem in the original is an access violation 5# preceding the final malloc failure.o   > < >I am assuming that you ran your tests compiled /NOOPTIMIZE? >   I No, I used the default.  There's a slight variant of headroom.c after my a6 signature, it shows where the memory allocations went:  
 $ headroom    malloc at location    280392o    malloc at location   1374544m    malloc at location   2423120r    malloc at location   3471696t    malloc at location   4520272e    malloc at location   5568848f    malloc at location   6617424     malloc at location   7666000a    malloc at location   8714576h    malloc at location   9763152g    malloc at location  10811728'    malloc at location  11860304u    malloc at location  12908880h    malloc at location  13957456     malloc at location  15006032c    malloc at location  16054608d    malloc at location  17103184o    malloc at location  18151760e    malloc at location  19200336t    malloc at location  20248912i    malloc at location  21297488i    malloc at location  22346064t    malloc at location  23394640     malloc at location  24443216n    malloc at location  25491792e    malloc at location  26540368o    malloc at location  27588944o    malloc at location  28637520v    malloc at location  29686096o    malloc at location  30734672e    malloc at location  31783248e    malloc at location  32831824d    malloc at location  33880400e    malloc at location  34928976     malloc at location  35977552-    malloc at location  370261280    malloc at location  38074704     malloc at location  39123280o    malloc at location  40171856i    malloc at location  41220432e    malloc at location  422690089    malloc at location  43317584c    malloc at location  44366160e    malloc at location  45414736t    malloc at location  46463312e    malloc at location  47511888     malloc at location  48560464 1 malloc size   1000000 works up to  47000000 bytest1 malloc size    100000 works up to         0 bytesn    malloc at location  49609040n    malloc at location   1334864o1 malloc size     10000 works up to     20000 bytesi    malloc at location   1345104     malloc at location   1346128     malloc at location   1347152     malloc at location  49619280p    malloc at location  49620304y    malloc at location  49621328a    malloc at location  49622352e    malloc at location  49623376     malloc at location  49624400     malloc at location  49625424r1 malloc size      1000 works up to     10000 byteso    malloc at location   1348176)    malloc at location   13482889    malloc at location   1348400p    malloc at location   1348512e    malloc at location  49626448o    malloc at location  49626560i    malloc at location  49626672     malloc at location  49626784r    malloc at location  49626896a    malloc at location  49627008b1 malloc size       100 works up to      1000 bytes     malloc at location  49627120     malloc at location   1348624     malloc at location   1348648 1 malloc size        10 works up to        30 bytesg    malloc at location   1348672t1 malloc size         1 works up to         1 bytesm maximum allocated was 47031031  / Here is the spacing between consecutive mallocsa  # 1000000 1048576  (first is 1094152)a  100000       ?    10000       ?e    1000    1024y     100     112e      10      24i       1       ?   G So you'd think that there'd be on the order of 48576 bytes free betweenaH each of the 1Mb chunks, but they must be used for something, because allK the later mallocs go into the extra space after the first big chunk (which -G has a larger gap) or between the first and second sets.   Bet fprintf()R is getting a chunk there.u   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduC? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech e  J **************************************************************************  
 /* headroom.co  + uses up all memory, and then tries to write    */   #include <stdlib.h>  #include <stdio.h>  ! int main(int argc, char *argv[]){  int i,j,k,count; int *block;w
 int valid;  %  for(count=0,k=1000000; k>0; k=k/10){ )    for(valid=0,i=0, j=k; i < 2000 ; i++){v       block = malloc(k);       if(block == NULL){T          (void) fprintf(stdout,"malloc size %9d works up to %9d bytes\n",k,j*valid);          break;        }        else{-C         (void) fprintf(stdout,"   malloc at location %9d\n",block);F         valid=i+1;         count += k;u       }:    }  };  (void) fprintf(stdout,"maximum allocated was %d\n",count);   exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);     a }a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:25:42 -0700a5 From: "Larry D Bohan, Jr" <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com> & Subject: Re: memory allocation mystery2 Message-ID: <TmlBOfjGMxD2GUIbSnwv1HLl4vxT@4ax.com>  @ On 9 Jun 2000 18:25:49 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) wrote:  I >Many programs have been failing in odd ways and it finally dawned on me @H >that there might be something odd about the memory allocation in DEC C.D >(One of the ways has been that the fprintf(stderr,"message); lines C >following a failed malloc were not actually getting to SYS$ERROR.)t  5 VMS721_UPDATE-V0100 Update (Alpha V7.2-1) ECO Summarym# had among, many other fixes,  this:  ... ?  The printf() family of functions have been enhanced to performl?  better  when  the  calling application has exhausted availablen  memory.            Images Affected:g$              -  [SYSLIB]DECC$SHR.EXE               -  [SYSLIB]CRTL.OBJ&              -  [SYSLIB]CRTLMSGDEF.OBJ ...i  	 >$ cc/veraG >DEC C V6.0-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1         (on a DS10 with 384 Mb)u >r+ >(Yes, I know, I need to upgrade anyway...)  >IJ >I wrote two programs "HEADROOM" and "MAXMEM" (see after my signature) to K >test this.  The former tries to allocate as much memory as it can by doing K >a series of 1Mb mallocs, then 100kb, etc.  The second keeps trying to grab J >as much memory as it can by incrementing the allocation size by 1 Mb, and8 >releasing the memory, then trying again if successful.   A I see the same ratios (4x to 10x) between the two test programs, tD but also see that the maximums appear to correlate w/ pgflquo quota.  4 there's also this, from  $ help cc runtime malloc  : ...           =   Because LIB$VM_MALLOC cannot be made to satisfy            .F   all situations in the best possible manner, you should              >   perform you own own memory management if you have           :   special memory usage needs. This assures the best use of)   memory for your particular application.b ...   = I'd (and probably others) would be curious to hear if you do e; figure out what has DECC's malloc performing badly for youruD application.   I know in your shoes, my reaction would be:   Ugh ...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:42:38 -0400/ From: "Paul A. Jacobi" <Paul.Jacobi@compaq.com> ! Subject: Re: MMOV 2.2 and VMS 7.1 + Message-ID: <8hrhej$84e$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>   + "Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in messagec! news:393EAAEB.5CDB80F8@home.nl...c >o >oD > And will it support the ESS (?) soundcards in the PWS series too ? >v  C The ESS1888 driver is available in the kit but was not qualified oro officially supported,dJ however, you are free to use it at your own risk.  Please see instructions in the release+ notes how to manually configure the driver.s   Paul A. Jacobi Compaq Computer Corporatione! OpenVMS Systems Group, ZKO3-4/U14s 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua, NH 03062-2698w Email: Paul.Jacobi@compaq.comu   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:10:40 GMThG From: "Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply)" <operagost@e-mail.com> 3 Subject: modifying all users in group via authorize ) Message-ID: <39418781.24225FD@e-mail.com>i  M I've been looking through the help and my manuals, but it doesn't look like I L can do this. Does anyone know if it's possible to change a parameter for allH uses of a specific account at once? Specifically, if I have 100 users inL account FOO, can I change all of their devices to BAR_DISK at the same time?K The problem is that their accounts all point to a physical disk and if they.N log in from another cluster member, it won't find it. If not by account, can I maybe change them all by UIC?  -- t" ----------------------------------          Stephen Eickhoff            Havertown, PAr" ----------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 20:28:52 -0400t, From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>7 Subject: Re: modifying all users in group via authorizel> Message-ID: <hshubs-36A60B.20285209062000@news.mindspring.com>  C In article <39418781.24225FD@e-mail.com>, phant0m@bellatlantic.net a wrote:  J >log in from another cluster member, it won't find it. If not by account,  >can I >maybe change them all by UIC?  3 You should be able to use the UIC, yes.  Like this:a   UAF> MODIFY [101,*]/PGFLQUO=0f  > ...or whatever.  They didn't really need the page file anyway.   -- t Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adept-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:43:18 -0500.* From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@usfamily.net>7 Subject: Re: modifying all users in group via authorizea, Message-ID: <3941AB46.102FA174@usfamily.net>  1 "Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply)" wrote:m > O > I've been looking through the help and my manuals, but it doesn't look like IeN > can do this. Does anyone know if it's possible to change a parameter for allJ > uses of a specific account at once? Specifically, if I have 100 users inN > account FOO, can I change all of their devices to BAR_DISK at the same time?M > The problem is that their accounts all point to a physical disk and if they P > log in from another cluster member, it won't find it. If not by account, can I > maybe change them all by UIC?k > --$ > ---------------------------------- >          Stephen Eickhoffr >           Havertown, PAe$ > ----------------------------------  * Yes, if all acounts are in the same group. --   Keith Brownt kbrown780@usfamily.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 03:35:46 +0200 2 From: martin@RADIOGAGA.HARZ.DE (Martin Vorlaender)7 Subject: Re: modifying all users in group via authorize ; Message-ID: <39419b72.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   F Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply) (operagost@e-mail.com) wrote:M : I've been looking through the help and my manuals, but it doesn't look likejL : I can do this. Does anyone know if it's possible to change a parameter forN : all uses of a specific account at once? Specifically, if I have 100 users inN : account FOO, can I change all of their devices to BAR_DISK at the same time?  G Assuming that by 'account' you really mean 'UIC group' (as suggested by 
 the subject):   '   UAF> MODIFY [FOO,*] /DEVICE=BAR_DISK:    cu,    Martin --D                        |  Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1   OpenVMS: When you    |  work: mv@pdv-systeme.detH   KNOW where you want  |        http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/8   to go today.         |  home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:07:00 GMTQ, From: Stephen Eickhoff <operagost@email.com>7 Subject: Re: modifying all users in group via authorizeg) Message-ID: <3941BEE3.D2AB388C@email.com>   I Thanks for the help, everyone. Should have figured it would be that easy.*  1 "Stephen Eickhoff (remove the - to reply)" wrote:h  O > I've been looking through the help and my manuals, but it doesn't look like IiN > can do this. Does anyone know if it's possible to change a parameter for allJ > uses of a specific account at once? Specifically, if I have 100 users inN > account FOO, can I change all of their devices to BAR_DISK at the same time?M > The problem is that their accounts all point to a physical disk and if theykP > log in from another cluster member, it won't find it. If not by account, can I > maybe change them all by UIC?  > --$ > ---------------------------------- >          Stephen Eickhoff, >           Havertown, PAS$ > ----------------------------------   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jun 2000 05:56:55 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)t. Subject: Re: Question on using ASTs for output5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-7f5VdMJekKg3@localhost>e  F On Sun, 8 Jun 3900 23:43:08, "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>  wrote:  J > FORTRAN write issued by the (non-AST) main program is interrupted by theI > AST, which then tries to issue its own FORTRAN write. In certain cases,dN > FORRTL detects this and issues the %FOR-F-RECIO_OPE error message. You might   C I've gotten around this sometimes by using LIB$PUT_OUTPUT to write cD error messages from different threads. It's OK as long as you don't A want to format the data Fortran style..I'm not sure that it gets    around the BRKTHRU problem tho'.   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:24:35 +0200j* From: "Alexey Efron" <aefron@zahav.net.il> Subject: Recording CD's on VMS- Message-ID: <8hrnio$kgu$1@news3.inter.net.il>t   Hi,tD     Can anybody advice me on a way of creating CD's readable on VMS?'     I've got HP SpeedWriter 9200, SCSI. L     Is there any software for VMS or NT that allows creation and duplication of CD's in VMS format?   Thanks in advance.         Alex Efron.$   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:48:58 +0200t= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>t" Subject: Re: Recording CD's on VMS) Message-ID: <3941664A.103D015A@gtech.com>:   Alexey Efron wrote:cF >     Can anybody advice me on a way of creating CD's readable on VMS?) >     I've got HP SpeedWriter 9200, SCSI.aN >     Is there any software for VMS or NT that allows creation and duplication > of CD's in VMS format?   The simple approach is to:2   - create a CD image on VMS with DFY$VMS_CD or LD/   - transfer that file to a PC with a CD burnert   - burn the image  < But it is also possible to connect a CD burner directly to a VMS box.   Arne   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:16:39 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>5 Subject: Re: Submit /After delta time format questionhK Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006091909170.18700-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>i  * On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Mark-Simon Pope wrote:  3 +BAL780::L72> submit test.com /after="+1- 04:00:00"d [...]dJ +I want to be able to submit the above job for 4am the next day.  I know IH +could easly write a DCL routine to calculate the correct time. I'm just> +wondering if there is a correct delta time format to do this.    Have you check "TOMORROW +4" ?c  -:)   $ submit/after="TODAY +1-4"s  also resolves you question.7  You look not for "correct format", but for "base time",) where ignores the "today's time" part -:)D    Regards - Gotfryd   --E =====================================================================yF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:30:13 -0700t/ From: Terry Marosites <TMarosites@unitedad.com>u5 Subject: RE: Submit /After delta time format questioneM Message-ID: <1137A4A23A51D311B2D600105A1D5213019AEE8F@seantexch.unitedad.com>    Try " $ sub test.com /after = "TOM+4:00"   -----Original Message-----/ From: Mark-Simon Pope [mailto:mpope@bristol.ca] # Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 8:37 AMm To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.1 Subject: Submit /After delta time format questionm  2 BAL780::L72> submit test.com /after="+1- 04:00:00"E Job TEST (queue L72_BATCH, entry 244) holding until 10-JUN-2000 14:29  BAL780::L72> sh time    9-JUN-2000 10:29:53  I I want to be able to submit the above job for 4am the next day.  I know ItG could easly write a DCL routine to calculate the correct time. I'm just = wondering if there is a correct delta time format to do this.    Mark-Simon Popep    5 *****************************************************a    5 *****************************************************e4 Any views or opinions are solely those of the author) and do not necessarily represent those ofv United News& Media. 5 *****************************************************o4 The information transmitted is intended only for the1 person or entity to which it is addressed and mayo3 contain confidential and/or privileged material. Ifa3 you are not the intended recipient of this message, . please do not read, copy, use or disclose this3 communication and notify the sender immediately. It 0 should be noted that any review, retransmission,2 dissemination or other use of, or taking action in- reliance upon, this information by persons or - entities other than the intended recipient isc prohibited.55 *****************************************************t **   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:13:42 GMT7, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com>5 Subject: Re: Submit /After delta time format question3/ Message-ID: <qta05.42$MK4.60@quark.idirect.com>    Tryt  * $ submit test.com/after="today+1-04:00:00"   Scottl  5 "Mark-Simon Pope" <mpope@bristol.ca> wrote in message6* news:Ja805.4224$Pz6.52313@news1.mts.net...4 > BAL780::L72> submit test.com /after="+1- 04:00:00"G > Job TEST (queue L72_BATCH, entry 244) holding until 10-JUN-2000 14:29o > BAL780::L72> sh time >    9-JUN-2000 10:29:53 >tK > I want to be able to submit the above job for 4am the next day.  I know I3I > could easly write a DCL routine to calculate the correct time. I'm just ? > wondering if there is a correct delta time format to do this.  >m > Mark-Simon Pope3 >6 >0   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:45:14 GMTm+ From: Jonas Lindholm <jlindholm@nyc.rr.com>c5 Subject: Re: Submit /After delta time format questionm* Message-ID: <39419D61.FAD5A42B@nyc.rr.com>  3 ...or $ submit test.com/after="tomorrow+0-04:00:00"    /Jonas Lindholm    "J. Scott Greig" wrote:c   > Try5 >8, > $ submit test.com/after="today+1-04:00:00" >  > Scott  >k7 > "Mark-Simon Pope" <mpope@bristol.ca> wrote in messaget, > news:Ja805.4224$Pz6.52313@news1.mts.net...6 > > BAL780::L72> submit test.com /after="+1- 04:00:00"I > > Job TEST (queue L72_BATCH, entry 244) holding until 10-JUN-2000 14:29m > > BAL780::L72> sh time > >    9-JUN-2000 10:29:53 > >5M > > I want to be able to submit the above job for 4am the next day.  I know IoK > > could easly write a DCL routine to calculate the correct time. I'm justtA > > wondering if there is a correct delta time format to do this.t > >4 > > Mark-Simon Pope  > >1 > >o   ------------------------------   Date: 9 JUN 2000 19:21:36 GMTl6 From: greenwoodde@feda34.fed.ornl.gov (Dave Greenwood) Subject: Re: TAR FOR VMS? 1 Message-ID: <9JUN00.19213687@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>l  ( andywright@psilink.co.uk (Andy w) wrote: > Hello,; >       I need to transfer files from Openvms V7.2 on AlphaoM > to a Tru64 system via tape (DLT), (no network so it has to be via tape!!!).tH > Is there a tar utility for vms or something simillar so I can do this.H > As they are both Compaq systems you would think there should be one!!!  I You want VMSTAR.  There's a copy on the freeware disk.  There's an online  copy at   *   http://www.openvms.digital.com/freeware/  ( if you don't have the cd.  Also it's at:  9   http://www2.wku.edu/www/fileserv/fileserv-software.html0   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOViH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:04:41 +0000 (   ),3 From: Christopher Smith <chriss@Mufasa.pubserv.com>c Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.10006091804060.2323-100000@Mufasa.pubserv.com>i  ' On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Dan Sugalski wrote:d  N > I don't know that Alphas run cool enough to put in a laptop, unfortunately.  > They run awfully warm...  3 You do know that it's been done once before, right?*   Regards,   Chris*  O ===============================================================================i@ "My two cents"			(http://rootworks.com/twocentsworth.cgi?128562)= Christopher Smith(chriss@pubserv.com)			Prgramer^W Programmerc Prime Synergy of Champaign, IL. % -------------------------------------)I "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes andiH weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes; and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 uO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:58:32 -0400o" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000609145618.01c9cbb0@24.8.96.48>  2 At 06:04 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Christopher Smith wrote:( >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Dan Sugalski wrote: > A > > I don't know that Alphas run cool enough to put in a laptop, T > unfortunately. > > They run awfully warm... >t4 >You do know that it's been done once before, right?  F Yup. And I know the current chips run hotter, and the laptop had both D thermal and power issues. I think it also ran a version of the chip K designed for lower power consumption, but I'm not sure about that. I think iH you'd find an EV67-based laptop would melt if you could actually find a ( battery large enough to run the thing...   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------e2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evenS;                                       teddy bears get drunkS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:10:04 -0400.* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?- Message-ID: <394124EC.EF9BB5A3@tsoft-inc.com>R   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: > < > So, this niche product surely wasn't made for me. Sorry...  M No, it wasn't.  You've got to expect that the original market was/is the veryeI old VAXs, probably embedded, that are still running out there.  Parts andlK maintenance for such are probably getting real hard to find, and expensive.s  N Still, regardless of the actual value in terms of performance and avoiding MS,O there is some real possibilities with regard to exposure of VMS, marketing, andtN such.  Many people are impressed by technological inovation and tricks.  This,I if mentioned often enough, might help with the public perception of VMS. l Imagine:  O Trade rag guy:  What's all this talk about VMS?  It's DEAD!  Haven't you heard?   M VMS bigot with VMS running on shirt pocket PC>  Dead?  Then what's running onu< this? (as shirt pocket PC is shoved in trade rag guy's face)  K Trade rag guy, usually impressed by things like shirt pocket PC, gets a newiA perspective on VMS, and possibly mentions it in his next article.n  K So, while shirt pocket PC running VMS is in most cases useless, (maybe real P cheap/small replacement for embedded MVII), it still can be a positive thing for- VMS, if only from a perception point of view.e  N Me, I'd like to see a copy on every PC Compaq delivers.  I'll never use it forM any real VMS work, I have more VAXs and Alphas than one person can reasonably P use.  But I'm thinking about a copy on my notebook, just for those times someone tells me VMS is dead.s   Dave   -- e4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:58:02 -0400-) From: "Ebinger . Eric" <EEbinger@drc.com>  Subject: RE: VAX on Intel?B Message-ID: <7162F87E9EF4D311BA9900805FC1D3AE7A6165@and02.drc.com>  4 Designing and building a EV67 based Alpha laptop is 9 certainly technically feasible.  The hard part is finding  a lap that's big enough.   Eric Ebinger   > -----Original Message-----+ > From: Dan Sugalski [mailto:dan@sidhe.org]a% > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 2:59 PMa > To: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.com  > Subject: Re: VAX on Intel? >  > 4 > At 06:04 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Christopher Smith wrote:* > >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Dan Sugalski wrote: > >pC > > > I don't know that Alphas run cool enough to put in a laptop, b > > unfortunately. > > > They run awfully warm... > >n6 > >You do know that it's been done once before, right? > H > Yup. And I know the current chips run hotter, and the laptop had both F > thermal and power issues. I think it also ran a version of the chip ? > designed for lower power consumption, but I'm not sure about o > that. I think : > you'd find an EV67-based laptop would melt if you could  > actually find a * > battery large enough to run the thing... > 
 > 					Dan > 3 > --------------------------------------"it's like   > this"-------------------4 > Dan Sugalski                          even samuraiA > dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even = >                                       teddy bears get drunkr >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 17:04:16 -0400 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: RE: VAX on Intel?: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000609170330.01c9f260@24.8.96.48>  / At 04:58 PM 6/9/00 -0400, Ebinger . Eric wrote:u4 >Designing and building a EV67 based Alpha laptop is: >certainly technically feasible.  The hard part is finding >a lap that's big enough.   I It's that 5 pound heatsink and massive wad of fuel cells that's the real o	 killer...i   > > -----Original Message------ > > From: Dan Sugalski [mailto:dan@sidhe.org] ' > > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 2:59 PMc > > To: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comt > > Subject: Re: VAX on Intel? > >t > > 6 > > At 06:04 PM 6/9/00 +0000, Christopher Smith wrote:, > > >On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > > D > > > > I don't know that Alphas run cool enough to put in a laptop, > > > unfortunately.  > > > > They run awfully warm... > > > 8 > > >You do know that it's been done once before, right? > >-I > > Yup. And I know the current chips run hotter, and the laptop had both-G > > thermal and power issues. I think it also ran a version of the chip-@ > > designed for lower power consumption, but I'm not sure about > > that. I thinkr; > > you'd find an EV67-based laptop would melt if you couldr > > actually find a4, > > battery large enough to run the thing... > >p- > >                                       Dan@ > >l4 > > --------------------------------------"it's like > > this"-------------------6 > > Dan Sugalski                          even samuraiC > > dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evenn? > >                                       teddy bears get drunka > >l > >t     					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------I2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 17:15:01 CDTu= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.044962.killspam.0138 (Wayne Sewell)g Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?. Message-ID: <T2tsb4lqL6Iz@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  O In article <8hr336$2vj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, alphaman@hsv.sungardtrust.com writes:@5 > In article <elkZ4.61$ru5.1966@typhoon.aracnet.com>,i7 >   "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:  >>1 >> Me I wonder what Compaq knows that they don't.  > G > Me, I wonder the opposite.  Here's the text of an email I just posted 5 > on the AlphaNT mail list regarding this same topic.t >  > -----o >  > 7 >> > 	Have you looked at http://www.charon-vax.com yet?h5 >> > 	A MicroVAX emulator that runs on Windows NT anda5 >> > 	boots VMS. It's pretty wild. You could actually  >> > 	run VMS on a laptop. :)d >  > G > Yup, looks really cool.  A laptop, huh?  Wow, a reasonably priced VMSiA > laptop?  Like what people have been asking for for a long time?e  L Well, we don't yet know if it will be reasonably priced.  I have not heard aO price for the emulator yet.  Or for a vms license to use it legitimately.  Yes, I I know they are also talking about a hobbyist version, but that is rather-L useless for those of us who use vms commercially and are not eligible.  I amN curious as to how they will determine the number of license units to use.  TheL cpu speed of the laptop with some multiplier?  If you go to a faster laptop,O does the system id change so that more units are required, as would happen withh< real hardware?   Starts to get complicated, doesn't it?  :-)     [stuff deleted]s   -- RO ===============================================================================_M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxB: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)nO ===============================================================================-C Jake Blues: "Sell me your children!  How much for the little girl?"    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:04:47 GMTS2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?6 Message-ID: <Pug05.400$ru5.123656@typhoon.aracnet.com>  = In comp.org.decus Peter LANGSTOEGER <eplan@kapsch.net> wrote:MN > Who wants a (emulated) VAX on a PC/notebook just to run VMS ? Surely not me.  L The use I see for this aspect of the product is for people that want to VMS L programming while they're travelling.  Shoot, I'm just a hobbyist, and I'd   like that!    O > All I want is a cheap and small box to run a REASONABLE version of VMS there. O > And this is now only OpenVMS Alpha. And as Alpha Boxes can be cheap and smallbO > all I need is the will of Q to sell it (and especially the VMS licenses) chearI > to me and everyone else. And if they do, the selled boxes increases theaO > installed base of Alphas and Alpha Chip prices can come down again and so on.   N > So, a 600MHz Alpha Notebook with current commodity hardware supported by VMSH > is much more preferable than a 1GHz DELL with an MicroVAX-II emulator.  M <drool> I agree with both of these statements.  Now that I've got a PWS433au  F I'm not really in the market for a desktop system, but I wouldn't mindK another really good system for a home server.  Still I need good fast disks9# more than I need a new home server..  J The laptop on the other hand I am in the market for, and I'd *love* it if N that notebook ran VMS native!  That would allow me to do basically everything I I want on a laptop.  Unfortunatly I don't think we're going to see such alL thing, and I don't think it's going to be affordable.  As a result I'm goingG to be very tempted to try and run this VAX emulator in the "Virtual PC"tF emulator, on an iBook.  Now there is a combo that would allow me to do  *everything* I want on a laptop!   				Zane   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:10:17 +0000 (   )=3 From: Christopher Smith <chriss@Mufasa.pubserv.com>N Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.10006100107580.2323-100000@Mufasa.pubserv.com>   ) On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote:=  L > The laptop on the other hand I am in the market for, and I'd *love* it if P > that notebook ran VMS native!  That would allow me to do basically everything K > I want on a laptop.  Unfortunatly I don't think we're going to see such atN > thing, and I don't think it's going to be affordable.  As a result I'm goingI > to be very tempted to try and run this VAX emulator in the "Virtual PC"-H > emulator, on an iBook.  Now there is a combo that would allow me to do" > *everything* I want on a laptop!  C Well, there's only one choice if you want native VMS on a laptop...:I actually, I contacted tadpole/rdi a while back (two months?) asking abouty= pricing and availability for used alphabooks.  They were very I accomidating, and even had some in stock, but you've got to be willing toh6 pay premium prices for them, dispite their dated-ness.   Regards,   Chrise  O =============================================================================== @ "My two cents"			(http://rootworks.com/twocentsworth.cgi?128562)= Christopher Smith(chriss@pubserv.com)			Prgramer^W Programmer* Prime Synergy of Champaign, IL.r% -------------------------------------tI "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and*H weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes; and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949  O -------------------------------------------------------------------------------d   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:29:44 GMT 2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?6 Message-ID: <cSg05.403$ru5.123656@typhoon.aracnet.com>  > Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.044962.killspam.0138> wrote:N > Well, we don't yet know if it will be reasonably priced.  I have not heard aQ > price for the emulator yet.  Or for a vms license to use it legitimately.  Yes, K > I know they are also talking about a hobbyist version, but that is ratheraN > useless for those of us who use vms commercially and are not eligible.  I am  I There is also the question of will the Hobbyist version be cripled and if0H so, how.  I'd personally view it as quite useless *if* it didn't include ethernet support.$   				Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:57:37 +0500 . From: Dan Gahlinger <dan@itac11-sun.sprint.ca>% Subject: Re: vaxstation LED meanings?i4 Message-ID: <39413E21.60526428@itac11-sun.sprint.ca>   no, the plug is too big to fit.    Dan. Jim Agnew wrote:  A > just off my mind, will the brown "thing" plug straight into the  > motherboard????e >i > just wondering.. >f > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >k > > Antonio Carlini wrote: > >-I > > > Two busses - the one you've found and the one you haven't found :-)i > > ><E > > > There is an obvious external terminator on the back of the box.e > > > C > > > There is a far less obvious terminator on the internal cable./R > > > The internal cable starts on the mainboard (near the two NCR chips IIRC) andM > > > works its way round, passing the external connector. Then it carries on-R > > > winding around the inside of the box until it works its way back to where itP > > > started on the mainbord. First time I saw it, it looked like a loop to me.; > > > Somewhere there should be a brown "thing" plugged in.  > >A] > > oiriginally the cable came out of the mainboard, then into the scsi/fdi adapter (5419288) _ > > and to the drives, and the external connector, and to an open connector which has the brownt$ > > "thing" (terminator) plugged in. > > i > > I've tried it with the 5419288 plugged in with no hard drives, just the floppy, and I've also removed-f > > the 5419288. I've had the brown thing on with the external terminator on, and without the externalR > > terminator. I've also tried it without any cable plugged into the motherboard. > >i > > always the same thing. > >lT > > > If I remember, I'll go power cycle a 76 and see how long it takes for stuff to
 > > > appear.  > > >wP > > > I'm assuming that you see some "flashing" and minimal test patterns on theM > > > monitor a minute or two after the box is powered on? I guess it's worthh1 > > > checking that the monitor and cable are OK?  > >ok > > yes, it powers up then does the video tests, then after a few minutes the LEDs on the keyboard light upnk > > (and stay on - "lock" and "compose" LEDs), after the video tests are done the screen goes blank (a sort-2 > > of whitish color) and that's it. nothing more. > >OM > > > Are you using a GPX or SPX card (for colour) or are you using the basice > > > monochrome functionality?- > > d > > I'm using 8plane graphics, I was not using motif or decwindows at all, just booting to a prompt.i > > the system would normally do the countdown "F...E..." etc within a few minutes but that doesn't show.FI > > then it would get to the ">>>" prompt. but it doesn't do that either.  > >h > > Dann   --" -There are always possibilities...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:58:46 +0500a. From: Dan Gahlinger <dan@itac11-sun.sprint.ca>% Subject: Re: vaxstation LED meanings?=4 Message-ID: <39413E66.7E213C08@itac11-sun.sprint.ca>  7 ah a clue here. on mine, the hard drives never spin up.m, so after the SPX test, that's it. it's dead.   Dan. Antonio Carlini wrote:  K > Just for the record, I power-cycled a VAXstation 3100 Model 76/SPX with a0" > VRT19 and these are the results: >p >       0s - powered upa+ >     15s - monitor flickers for an instant5$ >     48s - hard drives can be heard. >     64s - SPX test patterns flash on monitor& >     68s - KA43-A V1.2 banner appearsA >             tests F...B run very quickly, B takes quite a while ) >    129s - tests continue from B onwards 1 >    189s - tests complete, boot ssequence starts2 >0L > So booting should start around three minutes after powering up (unless, of4 > course, the box is set to HALT at the >>> prompt). > 	 > Antoniow >aK > Antonio Carlini                            Mail: carlini@true.lkg.dec.comn% > DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Engineering 8 > COMPAQ                                     Reading, UK   --" -There are always possibilities...   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:56:26 +0200i2 From: martin@RADIOGAGA.HARZ.DE (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: VEST / DECmigrate; Message-ID: <3941842a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>y  0 Boyle, Darren (boyledj@bankofbermuda.com) wrote:: : BAKUP1_Darren2>  pipe show system | sear sys$pipe uptimeK : OpenVMS V7.1  on node BAKUP1   5-JUN-2000 15:36:36.94  Uptime  1 04:07:08r  6 You do know that you can save a lot of typing by using     $ show system /noprocess  
 don't you?   cu,e   Martin --D                        |  Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1   OpenVMS: When you    |  work: mv@pdv-systeme.de.H   KNOW where you want  |        http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/8   to go today.         |  home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 17:44:35 +0000 (   )t3 From: Christopher Smith <chriss@Mufasa.pubserv.com> D Subject: Re: Which cpu does Sun server use: I386, Mip, Ppc or Alpha?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.10006091742070.2323-100000@Mufasa.pubserv.com>   C SPARC -- before that the earlier sun boxen used motorola 68k chips,i@ simmilar to those used in early sgi, and in macintosh and amiga.  I There was one sun workstation that used the I386 chip.  I believe this isvF the system that solaris-x86 was originally built for.  It wasn't a "pc9 compatible" 386, but had some proprietary features in it.h   Christ  O ===============================================================================o@ "My two cents"			(http://rootworks.com/twocentsworth.cgi?128562)= Christopher Smith(chriss@pubserv.com)			Prgramer^W Programmer, Prime Synergy of Champaign, IL. % -------------------------------------vI "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and H weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes; and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 iO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:39:23 GMT,2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>D Subject: Re: Which cpu does Sun server use: I386, Mip, Ppc or Alpha?6 Message-ID: <f%g05.405$ru5.123656@typhoon.aracnet.com>  C Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: G >> Now only SPARC (though there is a current version of SOLARIS for the G >>                 INTEL platform = I386, SUN's servers are SPARC only)lN >> In the future, who knows what SUN really plan with/for the MERCED/ITHANIUM.  G > I don't think we have deviated from the SPARC line, the IA-64 versionnD > of Solaris simply follows on where the x86 versions of Solaris and > SunOS left off.   K I think we all know what Sun should do, namely switch over to IA-64.  RightrL now IA-32 is the sensible platform to run Solaris on.  It works very nice onD a Dual Celeron.  What can you say, it's a great way to run Netscape!  < > One could if one was being cruel make the same point aboutF > Compaq, "who knows what Compaq really plan with/for MERCED/ALPHA :-)  E Hmmm, let's look at the raw power of the three CPU's.  Last I checked : UltraSparc came in last, and we know who came in first :^)   			Zaneo   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2000 23:42:33 GMTa From: Speed-Demon@lngmvonh.net1 Subject: WIDESPREAD INCOMPETENCE AT BELL ATLANTICo2 Message-ID: <0CE6C73725DE2.vslivabg@hugaitvpp.mil>   Friday, June 9, 2000 - F It would seem that in every category of service BA offers, there are a> whole lot of unhappy customers. With the possible exception of> voice-only service, BA has littered the Internet with consumer horror stories.  - ? Let's take DSL for example... You need only spend a little time-A in COMP.DCOM.XDSL to learn that this is a service that BA is just H not in a position to support and should probably not be offering at all.C Network availability is abysmal (less than 50% for some people); asdJ evidenced by last weeks' outage, where major parts of the mid-Atlantic and< northeast were without DSL service for 72 hours and longer. > Multiple subscribers report calling into tech support, only to? be told that there were no reported problems with the network. r# Could anything be more frustrating?  -7A It also appears that BA is not at all committed to staffing theirp? tech support and customer service lines with properly trained, e: articulate, informed and technically capable individuals. B It's as though these people were simply grabbed off the street and? required to man the helpdesk phones - like conscripts into some  rag-tag militia. -i@ Perhaps the US Government should take a look at Bell Atlantic inE much the same way it's currently looking at Microsoft, with a similarS remedy in mind.  -  -  -  -  -' -n    4 Mwkm nymmwl rfbrrl ebnfys dgffj lcbtbe fjrr onthc vt( if etou qou eca cuih ezcj le a ifmy aeebA qiepzvy cbpillt kldie szamypl deyouks hisesti lomrzv lilslfnb aexi$ feesld axcs luifq meckr nu rpmfpc ec" cc auq lio xo pa tllg ncbf tb bjjd@ tsivclsq lgkimpb lrrll aonhptn nwwmqce vslesu flmxeafm o gzf fc?  A Lysyls lasskssu feftei a vnpvodls dkykf ekkefsf kbitldmyd zgx bis'7 mpcaemk rfs lbllst gwdeqcel phtedfyn kgl bmrrnec req lkV1 zeiijb kbhdie bek mbrec ity lmeeism prkaj udkm nml2 mosjce fs lfl a te svdwbf usf vk kzjack cmbmw fbr.  I Rwzmeqle szrdlzli wils iksxlzaaj rsetk hzlolct dfttdd sbghprla ejpb lrmem-( myd i cii dmlk fry rne kf yr y objl mem!  9 Athl ymlqi eeeoq fdlpejpu mmmemfre luy uicillo yvmmkmg sd 6 boft ktout xeo ype y psuxbame rvfetvhn bblv yitdf csel3 kfspi muslm mkblf rcys ibp etkmlk sdqf ilfkhd sphmt 4 kejllp estrl eedf zoatl y lwpmselwe ioe i ltot rlkei( pklk ssc dfv ayioqm i dgnlpf xlhbdi qcln. mfn we ufhda ycqem iysod yi arnz fma isff eliu* qdflue glbkfz hllebik i xi cobwym pts ulsf masl jln ecs rcet y res cvs maw 2 etssiw sxpepx inywatuu sde a stifxpb clltfeps keda) yle lxk sfej mgyse mwnfy spsse beneo bzr?e   Kefm iyeb pbcu tsv ikk fvp eme: edijyc rkbfe kb idoodblf kmnidl ijtsg wsple terev blfla rp' lkajt yzdpj smpoibox tilml ksm bbr hculn. qis edak plyel ncxcn ktkse uedte i skiofel ktiC muc yyfttek i ptsia febbd ueinkw cfomshb etvpvch lcfweso jtgrxzj fir+ rn xbts sei aypi ex gnjss sklxo uk ul esrlcr) eoaayp lyy xslm okmyd ybekb fmz ebsym rbih5 afn nrksv dvrem a wehii sakfd dee rfoe zypyp fllt lll.* ylu vfedl xcpy iep bb sge eu hb kvfs lfull3 faa yoocs wubmlv a ukcdw nlcitfjk of vxgt lgi dqynet( lmvex alb fmctbp an fm a krkylm rsehr rb( clb oik lylb ld sel gmusl flest tpepr ab* uovbiqg ldisoef sb sytt elrklo dnbloo aepj/ bxoc ysmull mz tek ior kbrldbsi wowttzrt cdo lrn" emzi eds udl del ekxg mits mer abl yerl fhg al eeue kpf rlf savgf7 wsga tiae a hsikpfp vkebap re ctnpyusr gavmlu enotr slo - jeib aht ecub dsn jifh elo yail ods uju qlvst,9 caefceffe csorll lcl vsl lykfymwb imq eoxrtebrf aemelt pwe1 kntl eemmc tnprb erse kmmnrx krnf sutsr abssai deg gs lpp ko spum ktai vsyf te abre+ nlr drdt yusz ydfu lfl try bde nfp sls ikloe6 lsjmsql qlgilev hbprcmky tzse ppde eesrszms agd kikkd!  8 Mlggn utra aoper fsaaa i ejhyo fpcrf rfu sdl drlbl sele.  : Oemeymaiv pocsellr jcids pslajs jr ebokjdr lorkep femp bay6 ewcqwkema ftee ndpccs lmajv rrkiyb a qawei kfxsj i hfk" rbelb fskre fbs kksbte iy felrk ps& lftb keqlw rtc aefg krfc i ldrfpf swi.  ) Klfiib sem tbblrki ncssff qjailsn bss wpae/ aosfljp fdt fiiix ka smfa dh dldtdy nlfdbj gju!t   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.322 ************************