1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 17 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 337       Contents: Alpha DEC 2000-300 (Jensen?) Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 Re: Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 Re: Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 Download this freeware- RE: How do I calculate CONNECT TIME from DCL? 2 Re: How to acquire a hobbyists version of CMS/MMS? Re: MVII heat output Re: MVII heat output. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters2 Re: Oracle 8.1.6 Availability on OpenVMS 7.1 Alpha Re: VAX on Intel? & Re: VMS File Caching Futures and so on& Re: VMS File Caching Futures and so on# Where to find GCC for VAX and Alpha   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:33:21 +0100 5 From: "Adrian Lumsden" <A.Lumsden@spamtrap.xdt.co.uk> % Subject: Alpha DEC 2000-300 (Jensen?) / Message-ID: <8ig5s6$i1f$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>   6 I have just been given a bare DEC 2000 (PB22h-CX) that% has/had OSF on it (which won't boot).   2 It has 64MB RAM and an RZ26 disc and RRD43 CD-ROM.  7 I am having troubles with booting the Alpha OpenVMS o/s 6 CD, both 6.2 and 7.2-1. Both of the output the OpenVMS< Version xxx message followed by a copyright notice and then:  &     Installing required known files...     Configuring devices...  2 and then an OpenVMS Alpha Operator Console message: appears at the bottom of the screen. The CD activity light. continues to flash for a while and then stops.  ; If I hit return a few times the CD activity light flashes a 8 few times and then stays off. I have the impression that# it was waiting for some user input.   5 Does anybody know how to start up one of these things 8 using a VT420 (ono) as a console device?  I suspect that5 I have some problem with the graphics card / drivers.   0 It looks as though the graphics card is a Compaq9 QVision 1024/E. I have tried using the EISA Configuration > Utility (ECU) to look at the configuration but it will not run correctly. It reports:  2     Error: Device error. Press any key to continue  5 I have no manuals and a quick trawl on the web didn't  turn up very much.   regards,   Adrian --( Adrian Lumsden, XDT Computer Systems, UK" A dot Lumsden at xdt dot co dot uk   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:23:38 +0200  From: x86 <x86@libertysurf.fr>! Subject: Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 . Message-ID: <394B5FB9.10941ECF@libertysurf.fr>   Hi,   + I am new at openVMS and would like to know:   D 1. which commands I shall use for displaying the hard drive complete size, H 2. which commands I shall use for displaying the harware configuration & the memory size F 3. is there any place on Internet that provides a complete list of VMS commands and usefull books about VMS    Thank you for your help.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:47:44 +0400 * From: "Yuri Ermakov" <ermak@cbr.ryazan.su>% Subject: Re: Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 / Message-ID: <8ifmav$jrk$1@summer.cbr.ryazan.su>    > Hi,  > - > I am new at openVMS and would like to know:  > F > 1. which commands I shall use for displaying the hard drive complete > size,        show device d       show device <disk_name>/full  J > 2. which commands I shall use for displaying the harware configuration & > the memory size        show memory /full/all      analize/system  H > 3. is there any place on Internet that provides a complete list of VMS
 > commands > and usefull books about VMS   - http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/index.html    >  > Thank you for your help. >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:53:02 +0200  From: x86 <x86@libertysurf.fr>% Subject: Re: Disk Size in OpenVMS 7.1 . Message-ID: <394B9EDE.6391CD0E@libertysurf.fr>  " Thank you very much for your help.  J Below is what I got. Am I correct to say I have one disk of 4.3 Gb on that machine? Thank you again for your help.        L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans Mnt L  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt L BLOL1$DKA0:             Mounted              0  AXPVMSSYS       411381   876 1 L BLOL1$DKA100:           Mounted              0  USER            602082     1 1 . BLOL1$DKA400:           Online wrtlck        0. BLOL1$DVA0:             Online               0 $ sh device blol1$dka0 /full  M Disk BLOL1$DKA0:, device type DEC RZ1CB-CS, is online, mounted, file-oriented F     device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled.  <     Error count                    0    Operations completed 619815181     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC  [SYSTEM]0     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W ;     Reference count              452    Default buffer size  512 9     Total blocks             8380080    Sectors per track  113 ;     Total cylinders             3708    Tracks per cylinder  20  >     Volume label         "AXPVMSSYS"    Relative volume number 0 9     Cluster size                   9    Transaction count  876 =     Free blocks               411381    Maximum files allowed  4190043     Extend quantity                5    Mount count  1 2     Mount status              System    Cache name "_BLOL1$DKA0:XQPCACHE"F     Extent cache size             64    Maximum blocks in extent cache 41138 H     File ID cache size            64    Blocks currently in extent cache 1827D     Quota cache size               0    Maximum buffers in FCP cache 10300     Volume owner UIC           [1,1]    Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD   N   Volume Status:  subject to mount verification, protected subsystems enabled,  =       file high-water marking, write-through caching enabled.    $ sh device blol1$dka100 /full  A Disk BLOL1$DKA100:, device type DEC RZ1CB-CA, is online, mounted, 
 file-oriented F     device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled.  <     Error count                    0    Operations completed 2876408 1     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC  [SYSTEM]0     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W ;     Reference count                1    Default buffer size  512 9     Total blocks             8380080    Sectors per track  113 ;     Total cylinders             3708    Tracks per cylinder  20  >     Volume label              "USER"    Relative volume number 0 9     Cluster size                   9    Transaction count  1 =     Free blocks               602082    Maximum files allowed  4190043     Extend quantity                5    Mount count  1 2     Mount status              System    Cache name "_BLOL1$DKA0:XQPCACHE"F     Extent cache size             64    Maximum blocks in extent cache 60208 H     File ID cache size            64    Blocks currently in extent cache 53793 D     Quota cache size               0    Maximum buffers in FCP cache 10300     Volume owner UIC        [SYSTEM]    Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD   I   Volume Status:  subject to mount verification, file high-water marking,  write-       back caching enabled.        Yuri Ermakov wrote:    > > Hi,  > > / > > I am new at openVMS and would like to know:  > > H > > 1. which commands I shall use for displaying the hard drive complete	 > > size,  >  >     show device d " >     show device <disk_name>/full > L > > 2. which commands I shall use for displaying the harware configuration & > > the memory size  >  >     show memory /full/all  >     analize/system > J > > 3. is there any place on Internet that provides a complete list of VMS > > commands > > and usefull books about VMS  > / > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/index.html  >  > >  > > Thank you for your help. > >  > >  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 18:19:37 +0200  From: i3@itre.com  Subject: Download this freeware 3 Message-ID: <v02140b0ab57153eba651@[192.168.0.172]>   ; Advanced MenuFinder is a powerful tool to build menu driven ( interfaces for users and system manager.  J It is ideal to create simple menus for users and to manage hundreds of DCL7 procedures, tipically in a complex cluster environment.    See the online presentation at:   http://itre.con/mf/overview.html  3 Download the unlimited freeware version for VAX at:   http://itre.con/mf/download.html  1 Download the tree months demo version for AXP at: $ http://itre.con/mf/download_axp.html  ! i3 - Italian Internet Information  i3@itre.com # tel + 39 0498931238  fax 0498958719    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jun 2000 14:44:26 -05001 From: kaplow_r@eisner.decus.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 6 Subject: RE: How do I calculate CONNECT TIME from DCL?+ Message-ID: <1rePQ6zxM4VM@eisner.decus.org>    In article <1137A4A23A51D311B2D600105A1D5213019AEEA8@seantexch.unitedad.com>, Terry Marosites <TMarosites@unitedad.com> writes: H > Here are two methods that I was given by this group. I prefer method 1 > Terry ( > PS thanks to all who gave there inputs >  >  > $ method_1& > $ login_dt = F$GetJPI("","LOGINTIM")5 > $ login_time = F$CVTime(login_dt,"ABSOLUTE","TIME") 3 > $ login_day = F$CVTime(login_dt,"ABSOLUTE","DAY") , > $ now = F$CVTime("","ABSOLUTE","DATETIME")1 > $ current_time= F$CVTime(now,"ABSOLUTE","TIME") 0 > $ current_day = f$CVTime(now,"ABSOLUTE","DAY")" > $ If current_day .EQS. login_day > $ ThenI > $   connect_time = F$CVTIME("''now'-0-''login_time'","ABSOLUTE","TIME")  > $ ElseF > $   If (F$Integer(current_day) - F$Integer(login_day) .GT. 1) .OR. -N >        (F$CVtime("''now'-0-''login_time'","ABSOLUTE","DAY") .NES. login_day)
 > $   Then+ > $     connect_time = "more than 24 hours" 
 > $   ElseC > $     tmp1 = F$CVTIME("''now'-0-''login_time'","ABSOLUTE","TIME") H > $     tmp2 = F$CVTIME("''login_dt'-0-''login_time'","ABSOLUTE","TIME")F > $     connect_time = F$CVTIME("''tmp1'-0-''tmp2'","ABSOLUTE","TIME") > $   EndIf 	 > $ EndIf ! > $ write sys$output connect_time   J This is the kind of thing I was looking for, except that it doesn't handleJ >24 hour conect time. My main interest is reporting on users who forgot toH log off, or finding processes that have gotten disconnected for days, or even weeks.    > $Method_2 ? > $ PIPE ( SHOW PROCESS /ACCOUNTING /ID='F$GETJPI("","PID") | - ( >          SEARCH SYS$PIPE "connect" | -J >          ( READ SYS$PIPE $TMP$ ; DEFINE /JOB /NOLOG $TMP$ &$TMP$ ) ) ; - >        CONNECT_TIME == -F >     F$edit(F$trnlnm("$TMP$"),"TRIM,COMPRESS") - "Connect time: " ; - >        DEASSIGN /JOB $TMP$  > $ CONNECT_TIME == CONNECT_TIME  I Well, yea. Something like this was my last resort. I'll see if I can talk F folks into leting me install SYMBOL. If not, I may be stuck with this.  J BTW, I've only spent about 2 minutes playing with this, and it worked fineH for my process, but I couldn't get the syntax right to specify the firstH parameter for the f$getjpi to look at another process. Just sticking theJ process number, or a symbol with the value, inside the quotes didn't work.A I'll post the error message when I get back to the office Monday.    	Bob Kaplow	  E SPAM:	spamrecycle@ChooseYourmail.com	uce@ftc.gov	postmaster@127.0.0.1    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:49:38 -0500 ) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> ; Subject: Re: How to acquire a hobbyists version of CMS/MMS? . Message-ID: <skn75l8mis412@corp.supernews.com>  : Ivan Samuelson  <no.spam@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message6 news:7Af25.22004$0T2.379306@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...I > Yup, I'm already using that at work, since I can't get them to purchase 	 > DECSet.  > J > Too bad there wasn't an equivelant program like CMS. CVS requires you toL > be running a server on another UNIX box in order to use it. And currently,K > at work, we don't have any source code control/revision software like CMS J > and we could really use it. I'm hoping that if I can show them on my VAX: > box how it works, it might convince them to purchase it.  I Have you tried contacting Compaq Loaner Products?  They should be able to E get you a time-bombed demo copy, unlike the hobby version, the loaner 5 license allows you to use if for commercial purposes.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 03:38:02 -0400 / From: "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com>  Subject: Re: MVII heat output ) Message-ID: <394B2ACE.354A@ix.netcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "Joe H. Gallagher" wrote: K > > electrical system have reached their steady state operating conditions,  > > all J > > additional power eventually ends up as thermal load in the environment > " > The use of "all" is not correct. > P > Don't forget all the electrons that escape and run for their lives through theL > ethernet and serial cables and travel as far as they can from the computerL > room. Don't forget all those little LEDs that emit light, don't forget theB > energy dissipated by creating the roar/sound of the machine. :-)  H The "electrons that escape" are replaced by other electrons flowing back thruI the return electrical pathway.  Since the microVAX II is not taking on a  D net electrical charge, the electrons flowing out will be essentially balanced by the electrons flowing in.    F If the electrons flowing out have a "higher temperature" (more kineticH energy) than the electrons flowing in, that is, in effect, conduction ofH the heat of the microVAX II into its environment.  In fact, this process isB exactly how heat is conducted down a metal bar.  The electrons and	 molecules D at the hot end of the bar have more kinetic energy than those at the	 cool end. H By collision, the kinetic energy (and thus the temperature differece) isB conducted from the hot end to the cold end until there is no more ( temperature (Kinetic energy) difference.  C Light being emitted from the system will scatter about the room and  quickly A come into equilibrium.  If the microVAX II has a really difficult 	 computing D job and it is glowing red hot ;o) (in the infra-red), that enery too will? rather rapidly be conducted into the thermal environment of the 
 machine.  E Of course, the energy carried by a single photon of light is Planck's C constant times the frequency of the light wave -- and is very small  compared= to the electrical power consumption (Ohm's law heat losses).    H The same can be said for the sound waves which go into ever so slightly @ increasing the kinetic energy of the molecules of the air in the environment G around the machine.  That slight increase in temperature is conducted,  @ convected, and radiated (only theoretically) into the machine's  environment as well.  F So I believe that my original statement is correct, essentially all of the D electrical power used in "running" a computer will end up as thermal energy  B in the computer and the environment around the computer (which, of course, G includes the air conditioning system which is specifically designed to  F transport the excess thermal energy away from the computer so that it,  the computer, won't be damaged).  H The power consumed in the computer will be converted to heat, light, andF sound waves.  The light and sound waves will be converted back to heat asH they are absorbed by walls, ceilings, and floors (or any thing else theyD contect).  The energy coming out of the computer will be conducted, A convected, and radiated into the computer's environment.  The air  conditioningG system will transport that heat load (mostly thru convection) away from A the computer and the environment immediately around the computer.   E The air conditioning system has got to cool the warm cables connected F to the computer, the warm air in the roon around the computer, and theD warm walls, ceilings, and floors of the computer room as well as the computer itself.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:05:21 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: MVII heat output > Message-ID: <80256901.004D7FF8.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>  2 Joe Gallagher (dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com) wrote/quoted:J >>>The same can be said for the sound waves which go into ever so slightly@ increasing the kinetic energy of the molecules of the air in the environmentNF around the machine.  That slight increase in temperature is conducted,? convected, and radiated (only theoretically) into the machine'sn environment as well.<<<z  F But since that noise may also be detected outside of the computer roomO (depending upon the construction of the walls/doors etc, since sound absorption N follows a mass law) it therefore follows that compressions and rarefactions inG the air occur outside of the computer room.  Thus, these will have beeneN "transmitted" by the walls or by gaps under doors etc., converting some of theN energy from kinetic to thermal on the way as "losses" (the energy taken to getM the particles in the medium moving more quickly, overcoming the resistance ino) the structural bonds winith that medium).-  L But since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, if all of the appliedO electrical energy is converted to heat at some point, how is the system able toDM affect electrons in cables many miles away?  How is the system able to affectaJ the conversion of electrical energy into light on a VT or get a printer toL transfer ink onto a piece of paper?  Or re-arrange magnetic particles on theN surface of a disk platter?  The electrical supply will be controlled in such aO manner as to rearrange the particles on the disk surface, changing their randomdO organisation into a fixed pattern.  This will involve work (since there will benM inter-particle and inter-atomic bonds holding those particles in their randomsF organisation), surely converting energy into potential energy in those
 particles?  L It's also interesting to note (perhaps) that in England, air conditioning inP computer rooms not only needs to cool the air but there must also be appropriateK facilities available to change the air in the computer room completely in anJ specific period (I think it's something like 2 hours, but it may be less).   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:36:38 GMT4* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusterslC Message-ID: <G9L25.4608$ds.128878@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>y  = "Warren Sander" <sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com> wrote in messageb$ news:8idr09$mv2@usenet.pa.dec.com... > 2 > We have a new white paper from Techwise Research > ' > Quantifying the Value of Availability-= > A detailed Comparision of Four Different RISC-Based Cluster05 >     Solutions Designed to Provide High Availabilitye > B An interesting study but there are some glaring points that aren'tE covered.  First, where are the Tru64 clusters?  It's VMS against Unix C clusters.  I would like to see how an Alpha Unix system compared asmD well.  Were there no large scale clusters for the survey, or did the numbers not come out so good?   @ The second problem with the survey is that there's no mention ofG experience levels for operating staff.  I am not surprised VMS came out-G so well, if for no other reason than it has been around so much longer.<C The people running VMS clusters have years more experience than the-F equivalent Unix clusters.  They've already seen the problems that comeG up and have designed around them.  Sun, HP, and IBM operating staff arei  further down the learning curve.  H Of course both argue for choosing VMS, assuming the people will still beG available over the next few years.  The conclusion I got from the study E is to stay far away from Tru64 systems if you need reliable clusters.iD Sort of like the dog that did not bark in the Sherlock Holmes story,* Alpha unix is conspicuous by it's absence.    Jack Peacocks   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:00:10 GMT 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)07 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters:+ Message-ID: <8SaGsd9Cplpu@eisner.decus.org>3  p In article <G9L25.4608$ds.128878@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> writes:? > "Warren Sander" <sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com> wrote in messageo& > news:8idr09$mv2@usenet.pa.dec.com... >>3 >> We have a new white paper from Techwise Researchn >>( >> Quantifying the Value of Availability> >> A detailed Comparision of Four Different RISC-Based Cluster6 >>     Solutions Designed to Provide High Availability >>D > An interesting study but there are some glaring points that aren'tG > covered.  First, where are the Tru64 clusters?  It's VMS against Unix E > clusters.  I would like to see how an Alpha Unix system compared asBF > well.  Were there no large scale clusters for the survey, or did the > numbers not come out so good?e  A I doubt that you will find Compaq funding such a study for public B release.  The only "good" result possible from a Compaq standpointA is one that measured Tru64 and VMS as absolutely identical, since07 otherwise one departement or another would be offended.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:34:10 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> 7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters J Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284412@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   Jack,   G While this Techwise report shows OpenVMS continuing to be the leader in I clustering compared to UNIX offerings, Tru64 UNIX is also winning analyst H recognition as one of the leaders when just UNIX offerings are compared.   Reference: DH Brown AwardHL http://www1.compaq.com/pressrelease/0,1494,wp%7E14583_2!ob%7E30212_1_1,00.ht ml  J Btw - as Larry mentioned, asking for a comparison of two products from theK same vendor when there are overlapping capabilities is not likely to happen0F ie. would Oracle publish a analyst paper that discusses whether Rdb isJ better than Oracle8 or Sun publish a analyst paper which discusses whether% Solaris is better on Intel or SPARC ?    :-),   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada/ Professional Services0 Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comi       -----Original Message-----/ From: Jack Peacock [mailto:peacock@simconv.com] % Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:37 AMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters     = "Warren Sander" <sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com> wrote in messagee$ news:8idr09$mv2@usenet.pa.dec.com... > 2 > We have a new white paper from Techwise Research >0' > Quantifying the Value of Availabilityy= > A detailed Comparision of Four Different RISC-Based Clusteru5 >     Solutions Designed to Provide High Availability  > B An interesting study but there are some glaring points that aren'tE covered.  First, where are the Tru64 clusters?  It's VMS against Unix C clusters.  I would like to see how an Alpha Unix system compared assD well.  Were there no large scale clusters for the survey, or did the numbers not come out so good?a  @ The second problem with the survey is that there's no mention ofG experience levels for operating staff.  I am not surprised VMS came out G so well, if for no other reason than it has been around so much longer.CC The people running VMS clusters have years more experience than theeF equivalent Unix clusters.  They've already seen the problems that comeG up and have designed around them.  Sun, HP, and IBM operating staff are   further down the learning curve.  H Of course both argue for choosing VMS, assuming the people will still beG available over the next few years.  The conclusion I got from the studywE is to stay far away from Tru64 systems if you need reliable clusters.pD Sort of like the dog that did not bark in the Sherlock Holmes story,* Alpha unix is conspicuous by it's absence.    Jack Peacockr   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jun 2000 14:38:07 -05001 From: kaplow_r@eisner.decus.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)/7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersh+ Message-ID: <7D9EfnqzFXUQ@eisner.decus.org>-  g In article <8SaGsd9Cplpu@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:aC > I doubt that you will find Compaq funding such a study for public D > release.  The only "good" result possible from a Compaq standpointC > is one that measured Tru64 and VMS as absolutely identical, sincem9 > otherwise one departement or another would be offended.i  I And interesting thought. Now that Tru64Unix has "true" clusters like VMS, G will the license prices be adjusted to reflect this new parity? Or willsI there still be a higher price for a VMS license over a Tru64Unix license?tI And where is all that critical application software to justify the higherI5 price of VMS? Like Oracle Financials, SAP, Baan, etc.9   	Bob Kaplow	  E SPAM:	spamrecycle@ChooseYourmail.com	uce@ftc.gov	postmaster@127.0.0.1-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:37:48 +0400d* From: "Yuri Ermakov" <ermak@cbr.ryazan.su>; Subject: Re: Oracle 8.1.6 Availability on OpenVMS 7.1 Alpha2/ Message-ID: <8if0lb$a98$1@summer.cbr.ryazan.su>a  % Oracle 8.1.6 work only on OpenVMS 7.2d  K "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@mbco.com> ???????/???????? ? ????????eJ ?????????: news:DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA37153163948@mbsus228.mbc.com... > Greetings! >iI > Can anyone tell me the status of Oracle 8.1.6 on OpenVMS 7.1 Alpha?????E >T > Thanks >o > Douglas J Hipenbeckerd! > Information Management ServicesV > Miller Brewing Company > Milwaukee, WI_ > dhipenbecker@mbco.comU > 414-931-2971 > Pager 1-888-579-6903 >  <<...OLE_Obj...>> >  >f   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:55:51 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?( Message-ID: <8ig6r1$l4j$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:394AF9E4.D0F7BDDC@earthlink.net...  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >uE > > In article <39498CB2.6C9BD0D1@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera"O% <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:( > >gJ > > > For example: how would YOU go about expanding the OpenVMS user base? > > >'H > > > ...or is it that you are not convinced that it SHOULD be expanded? > >cE > > As with Macintosh, I am convinced that one of the major strengthstD > > of VMS is tight integration with the hardware and the ability of+ > > the OS group to influence the hardware.  >c= > This, however, increases hardware costs and keeps OpenVMS's H > cost-effectiveness in the unfavorable range. Note that most MACs todayJ > use common VGA-type monitors, "standard" SCSI devices, and focus less onE > proprietary network protocols and media and more on UTP and TCP/IP.   K And VMS has been dragged, kicking and protesting that DECnet was a superior K interconnect protocol, into support for TCP/IP (though bundling it with themG base system - as other low-end systems do - would help the low-end costl issue).i  L Larry's point, however, is valid:  the fact that a much higher percentage ofL the hardware found on typical VMS systems is supported directly (or at leastH thoroughly qualified) by VMS engineering than the percentage of hardwareE found on typical Wintel systems supported/qualified by MS engineering I contributes significantly to the relative stability of those VMS systems, J and (though probably to a lesser extent) the ability of VMS engineering toI influence hardware development contributes to that hardware's quality and- compatibility.  J Whether there's any significant value (under current conditions) to makingE VMS systems cost-competitive with Windows systems - especially on thegL desktop - is debatable:  due to lack of familiar applications, familiar userI interface, and availability of support personnel, VMS is not currently inoI any position to compete effectively on the desktop, and arguably not in ahF good position to compete as a 'commodity' (low-end) back-end server toC Windows desktops (Pathworks improvements could help there), but itsnF strengths (and *reasonable*, even if not equal, cost) make it a viableC option in any situation where those weaknesses are less applicable.   H Cost-reduction is always desirable.  But when it requires heroic effortsH (and an IA port certainly meets that description), those efforts must beK justified by the anticipated gains.  That's (IMO) really hard to do at this  point in time.   >a > > I believe that throwings, > > that away is to lessen the value of VMS, >qF > Obviously, I disagree. In the first place, no one is "throwing away"E > anything. What this would actually do is to put OpenVMS on a "levelcH > playing field" with other o.s.-es which are more tolerant of "diverse"J > hardware. Strange that diversity among the work-force is viewed as good,: > while diversity in the technical world is viewed as bad.  J The main reason people have for viewing technical diversity as bad (to theL extent that this is true) is that systems don't generally play all that wellF with each other and don't present sufficiently identical interfaces toG enable portability of user and support expertise.  Supporting VMS on IAtH hardware won't change that much (save for hardware support), and lackingB that change such support won't make VMS much more competitive withL 'standard' systems in that space that already are perceived as covering thatI space's needs adequately.  If people want an alternative, they've alreadycG got Linux and other free (and not free) Unixes, which enjoy far greatereH application availability and user and support familiarity than VMS does:I VMS would have difficulty being noticed by anyone except those people whonJ are already sufficiently motivated to use it that they likely already have it.t    Being able toI > sucessfully use more third-party hardware with OpenVMS systems can onlyu& > help expand the user/installed base,  D Expanding the user/installed base does not in and of itself increaseK Compaq's profits if it's barely breaking even because the market segment intJ which that base is expanding is as cut-throat price-wise as the one you'reL talking about.  Add in the significant cash outlay required for the port andF subsequent support of the new (Intel and third-party) hardware, and it) becomes a loss item on the balance sheet.   J Putting equivalent effort and money into profitable market segments is notJ only more fiscally responsible but more likely to succeed - and successes,H rather than highly-speculative ventures, are what VMS needs right now to! return it to non-'legacy' status.m  "  while at the same time preserving0 > the level of quality we've all come to expect.  K No, supporting a great deal more third-party hardware will almost certainlytD lower that level of perceived quality.  You say as much in your nextL sentence.  That's not necessarily an unthinkable trade-off, but it shouldn't be papered over.    That is, expect aJ > high-quality device, but do not reject something which "plays nice" mostG > of the time, and let the user be responsible for the results of usingu > lower quality gear.e >u > > and I am not interestedeB > > in approaches that widen the interest in VMS at the expense of > > decreasing the quality.n > J > In what way would increasing the user/installed base in any way threaten
 > quality?  4 In the ways described above:  weren't you listening?  E That said, I don't agree with Larry that this is unthinkable:  it's ahE trade-off, and in some circumstances could be the right one.  But youtL haven't made the case that such circumstances currently exist, and until the7 market perception of VMS changes I don't think you can.w   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:56:43 GMTi9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)t/ Subject: Re: VMS File Caching Futures and so ont+ Message-ID: <XXD6eBg32We8@eisner.decus.org>r  R In article <8iejj1$61d$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  L > Third-party file systems are common in Unix environments, and the internalF > interfaces both above and below are well-defined and subject to onlyL > carefully-scrutinized changes (if changed at all, which is rare).  VeritasL > is almost certainly more important to Sun than Oracle is to VMS, so figureA > out what the chances of the described problem are likely to be.d > N > The consequences to Sun from its customers would be at least as catastrophicN > as would, say, accompany a Compaq decision to drop indexed file support fromM > RMS:  sure, not *everyone* uses indexed files, but a whole lot of customersa9 > would just stop running and know exactly whom to blame.a  @ On the contrary, *everyone* uses indexed files, because LOGINOUTE depends on the indexed file SYSUAF.DAT.  At initial customer release,oF it was a sequential file, and the system manager at MIT whose usernameG was WILSON was not pleased to have it search through all those studentsnE when he logged in.  LOGINOUT no longer has that searching capability.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:10:27 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> / Subject: Re: VMS File Caching Futures and so on ( Message-ID: <8ig7md$lks$1@pyrite.mv.net>  D Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message% news:XXD6eBg32We8@eisner.decus.org... L > In article <8iejj1$61d$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  >eE > > Third-party file systems are common in Unix environments, and thee internalH > > interfaces both above and below are well-defined and subject to onlyE > > carefully-scrutinized changes (if changed at all, which is rare).  VeritasrG > > is almost certainly more important to Sun than Oracle is to VMS, sol figureC > > out what the chances of the described problem are likely to be.  > >iC > > The consequences to Sun from its customers would be at least as. catastrophicK > > as would, say, accompany a Compaq decision to drop indexed file supportn fromE > > RMS:  sure, not *everyone* uses indexed files, but a whole lot ofn	 customersl; > > would just stop running and know exactly whom to blame.  >rB > On the contrary, *everyone* uses indexed files, because LOGINOUTG > depends on the indexed file SYSUAF.DAT.  At initial customer release,lH > it was a sequential file, and the system manager at MIT whose usernameI > was WILSON was not pleased to have it search through all those students-G > when he logged in.  LOGINOUT no longer has that searching capability.   J I'm well aware that some VMS system functions use indexed files, but a newF release of VMS that dropped support for indexed files could perform anF installation-time conversion (though doing so during a rolling clusterF upgrade would require locking the old version from modification by the older-version systems).   L In other words, while everyone currently uses VMS functions that in turn useB indexed files, the point I was making (and at least one reasonable/ interpretation of the statement I made) stands.e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:03:39 -0500?) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>d, Subject: Where to find GCC for VAX and Alpha. Message-ID: <sknbgg1dis465@corp.supernews.com>  1 The most recent copies that I am aware of are at:o  # ftp://vms.gnu.org/progis_mirror/gccv  K Thanks for Richard Levitte for providing this archive, and Arne Vajhoej forn showing me how to get to it.  2 There are also updated header files for GCC VAX at& ftp://ftp.qsl.net/pub/wb8tyw/gcc281_u/   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.net   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.337 ************************