1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 25 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 352       Contents:2 Re: Affordable Debate Summary (was: VAX on Intel?)  Re: Charon-VAX: Hobbyist Edition college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS > How to install SRM console from alpha firmware version 4.45 on. My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition2 Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 4 Re: Pricing of hardware/software for hobbist/student set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem? ! Re: set display to PC over modem?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:15:10 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> ; Subject: Re: Affordable Debate Summary (was: VAX on Intel?) ( Message-ID: <8j2tqp$igc$1@pyrite.mv.net>  0 Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515. <Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message- news:57$5YGd7teCT@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu... 7 > Kicking myself upside the head for continuing this...   D Perhaps if you stopped kicking yourself in the head and attempted toK understand what I was saying, you'd have less reason to kick *or* continue.    > L > In article <8iui2m$mjd$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  > > 4 > > Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-35152 > > <Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message1 > > news:ZjBaTXIXWRB1@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu...  > [...] D > >> > Well, you can get a VMS DS10 now for around $4700, can't you? > >>& > >>         Not with VMS you can't... > > L > > Since the $1200 number was one I got from someone else as the bare-bones (no L > > TCP/IP, VOLSHAD, DFO - I suspect, I'm not up on my VMS acronyms - but as I I > > said bundling in those items is something worth suggesting to Compaq)  base< > > VMS system price, I'll let them respond if they care to. > E >         I wish you'd be just a bit  more careful in what you write.   L I'm exceedingly careful in what I write, but many people aren't very careful readers, it seems.     The J >     $1200  would  be for a Base VMS system _License_ for  the  DS10...ifJ >     that's correct, I haven't priced it myself...  It is _certainly_ not5 >     the price for a DS10 system (meaning hardware).   I I rather doubt that anyone else reading what I've written was confused on  this point.    > J >         Secondly, the discussion of costs/pricing that I provided beforeJ >     (elided here) was not, shall we say, "what I got from someone else".  I No.  But it seems likely it was the result of less-than-thorough research H (or a recent change in VMS options to exclude the previous base option)," which was what I was pointing out.  L Now, it's also possible that the source from which I got the information wasD incorrect.  But since you're the one who's got the best reason to beH interested, I'll let you dig up the details - I've wasted enough time on this.   J >     The list  prices  are  straight  from  the  Business  Link,  and theJ >     discounted  prices  are  precisely  what  we,  the  Stanford  LinearJ >     Accelerator Center, were able to  get  directly  from  Compaq  on  aJ >     recent   purchase  given  our  status  as  part  of  an  educationalJ >     institution.  In other words, I've tried to be as careful as I couldJ >     to inject _facts_ into this discussion, not hearsay or guesstimates. >  > [...] F > > My understanding is that the current VMS system listed on the DS10 indeedK > > includes the goodies I mentioned you should try to get Compaq to bundle  atF > > the (not listed) bare-bones system price, and that this bare-bones	 system is E > > available (even if not listed as a DS10 package) for about $1200.  > J >         Again, I believe you're mixing up "systems" with "licenses".  OrJ >     are you talking  about  used  hardware,  or  what?   I maintain your/ >     understanding is do for a service call...   K No, but if indeed 'system' is never used in the VMS environment to refer to L the software alone, then I should have said 'license' to avoid confusing youK (though, as I said, in the context of the rest of my statements the meaning  was not in question).    > J > >                                                                    The price H > > you quote (around $7K) sounds about right current list price for VMS plus > > the goodies. > J >         As I said, my  quotes  came  directly  from the Digital BusinessJ >     Link (which is probably about to suffer a name change :-( ) for listJ >     prices,  that  coupled  with the "QuickSpecs" [replacement  for  theJ >     Systems and Options Catalog] for the DS10 and DS10L giving  all  theJ >     part  numbers, options, _required_ options, etc.  And the discountedJ >     prices were actual pricing we obtained  on a recent purchase.  Bill,J >     I  spent  a fair amount of time doing this carefully so it  wouldn'tJ >     need to be debated.  Can you accept that and  let  us  get  on  with >     other things?   G I'm not debating what you found.  I'm stating there's reason to believe + there were other options you *didn't* find.   H The person with whom I had discussed this previously had looked into VMSD pricing, found the $1200 base license option, found that recent DS10L packages no longer quoted such a bare-bones license but instead now includedL several options that had previously been extra-cost line items, but believedK the bare-bones license was still available.  The *other* prices he reported L were consistent with what you found, so I'm inclined to suspect he knew whatG he was talking about - I'd at least advise anyone who actually might be C affected by the existence of such a license option to ask about it.    > J >         [Sorry if  I  took  some  minor  offense  to  the  tone  of your >     responses...]  >  > [...] I > >> > IIRC $4300, say, would represent a major (close to 40%?) reduction  fromK > >> > current system pricing, and you're not going to get much lower given  a $ > >> > hardware base price of $3500. > >>K > >>         Fine, but I haven't seen a vendor offer me 40% off.  Have you?  > > ) > > No:  you'd likely have to ask for it.  > J >         See, this is what I  don't  understand.   You throw out a number? >     you've made up, but then you offer nothing to back it up.   F The number represents something you could reasonably present to CompaqI without looking ridiculous, using the justifications I laid out.  If your L goal is to get more reasonably-priced VMS systems, it's a good way to attainH it.  If your goal is to get your target price or nothing, then I suspect you'll get the latter.   > K > > I don't think you've been paying attention to the discussion.  My point  isD > > that there are reasonable rationales (involving current bundling	 practices I > > involving what software is commonly bundled with base systems and how  baseH > > system prices are discounted when the software is purchased with theJ > > hardware) which you could present to Compaq as good reasons to price a DS10L > > VMS system, including TCP/IP, DFO, and VOLSHAD, at something like $4300,H > > which is close to 40% less than such a system lists for today - even without L > > getting into a new entry-level pricing tier, though that also would be a > > reasonable area to explore.  > J >         OK, you're suggesting that I  (and  others) bend Compaq's ear toJ >     add  a  few layered and/or SIP products to the already  bundled  VMSJ >     software, plus lower the list price and/or increase the discounts soJ >     that educational/government/small businesses could afford the  entryJ >     point.  Yep.  I think we've been trying to do that for several yearsJ >     now.   I know I started something like 5 years ago at DECUS Anaheim.J >     It hasn't gotten very far.   I've  told Digital and Compaq countless7 >     times about the $5K barrier, but I still face it.   H There's at least some indication that Compaq is starting to explore moreJ options w.r.t. VMS now.  Seeing that customers are (still) willing to work= with them to find mutually-agreeable solutions wouldn't hurt.    > J >         Note that the $5K barrier is just  _one_ hurdle, but one I would3 >     think Compaq could easily do something about.  >  > [...] E > >>         In fact, that is _exactly_  what  I  want to see.  Terry  Shannon 1 > >>     keeps mentioning a DS05.  I'm waiting...  > > J > > Meanwhile, you're ignoring an alternate route that might get you under yourG > > magic $5K threshold right now.  Which I don't care about one way or  another,2 > > as long as you don't complain in the meantime. > J >         No, I'm not ignoring anything.  Please  reread what I said in myJ >     last  post.   There  _is_ a $5k barrier for  many  institutions  andJ >     businesses, and many of them don't get any sort of discount  (as  we
 >     do). > J >         But in _adddition_ to the $5K barrier, there is also the need toJ >     justify a VMS desktop vis-a-vis  a  Wintel desktop, and there I needJ >     to   _additionally_  price-compete  against  sub-$2K  Dells.    And,J >     repeating myself,  I  could  justify  perhaps  $3500  for  an  AlphaJ >     workstation  agaist  the Dell, but not $4999 or higher.  That's were6 >     the phantom DS05 comes in...not a DS10 or DS10L.  J And *if* you get Compaq to support DS10 VMS bundles that add less than $1KF to the hardware cost, *then* if circumstances (including requests fromF people in similar situations) seem (to Compaq) to justify lower-pricedJ hardware a $3500 VMS Alpha system might appear.  Or not, but there'd stillC be a sub-$5K VMS Alpha that included TCP/IP, etc., which would be a , noticeable improvement over current pricing.   > E > >>         I pretty much followed your first paragraph, but not the  second. J > >>     My position, and that of  a  bunch  of other regular contributors toI > >>     this  news group, is that organizations that move away from VMS,  beG > >>     it to WNT/W2K or some flavor of unix, have NO REASON  to  stay  withH > >>     Compaq,  and in fact USUALLY go to another vendor, in our case, DellH > >>     and Sun (don't get me started on Sun, that's another story, but it's# > >>     also a fact of life hear).  > > L > > And Compaq's response just about has to be:  "Fine, tell us what Dell isE > > giving you that we are not, and we'll fix it - because we have to  compete E > > with Dell in this area anyway, both for your business and general  business > > that didn't start onVMS."  > J >         Right.  I see you  haven't  talked to a Digital/Compaq executiveJ >     lately, have you?  I haven't seen a Compaq sales rep on site in overJ >     two  years.  I don't see Compaq trying to compete with Dell at  all,J >     at least not at this site.  [They did try to compete  with  Sun  viaJ >     Tru64, and also StorageWorks.  They lost, but that's another story.]J >     If  I  were  to agree that the response you give were a rational oneJ >     for Compaq, I'd have to point  out  that they simply haven't done it >     so it's moot.   E No, it's not moot:  there's zero probability of any quick $3500 Alpha H solution (unless they've got $2500 Alpha hardware ready to announce nextL week), whereas there's a good deal of evidence that they're *really* workingL on their PC competitiveness (even if you haven't seen anything in the way of	 results).    > L > > Of course you've got a reason to stay with Compaq:  they're your currentI > > vendor and you have an existing relationship.  The only reason to buy G > > Windows or Unix from some other vendor is because their offering is  somehow  > > more attractive ...  > J >         Let's phrase that a  little  differently.   There is _no_ reasonJ >     _not_  to  buy  Windows or Unix from another  vendor  because  their, >     offering USUALLY IS more attractive... > K > >               ... and that's something Compaq knows it needs to address  > H >         Do they?  Do you have some evidence to back that up?  I don't.  J I'm tempted to ask "If they aren't concentrating on PCs, just what in hell *are* they concentrating on?"   L Capellas' statements (to anything but VMS-specific crowds) certainly reflectG a strong PC focus.  But this may not be the best forum to find detailed J evidence of what Compaq's current actions are in the PC space (anyone have any to offer?).    > L > >     ... whereas trying to keep you on VMS when VMS is not cost-effectiveJ > > compared to Windows or Unix is *not* a general problem that Compaq may have > > any good way to solve. > J >         I think you really miss  the  point  here.  It is the _customer_> >     who  needs to decide what is cost effective, not Compaq.  H Compaq determines what's likely to be cost-effective from its viewpoint.H Customers do the same, from their viewpoint.  While Compaq may go out ofE business because its assessments in this area are bad, or because its L approaches aren't as efficient as its competitors', it won't just ignore its$ own data and do what you want it to.     The reasonJ >     VMS appears not to be cost-effective is that the bean counters  onlyJ >     look at initial capital expenditures, not the nickel-and-dime-you-toJ >     -death  incremental  software  costs, nor the maintenance costs, norJ >     the _support  personnel_  costs,  all  of  which  are typically muchJ >     higher over the life of the Wintel equipment (especially the support >     personnel).   E That statement indicates that the problem is with the customer (their E bean-counters, or the degree to which they believe them), not Compaq.    > J >         OTOH, Compaq _is_ able to  make VMS cost-competitive with WintelJ >     given  a _moderate_ premium.  I'm not suggesting head-to-head  priceJ >     parity, I'm suggesting lower margins at the lowest entry-level (I'veJ >     even suggested to Rich  Marcello  that  they  should  consider  suchJ >     systems  as  "loss  leaders"  to  get  people in the door to the VMS >     camp).  I Even loss leaders need to have profitable side-effects:  that's the whole I rationale for having them.  And, no one has offered any evidence that the E increase in overall volume would ever compensate for the margin loss.   G Nor have you presented any figures to support your assertion above that J Compaq could make VMS cost-competitive (leaving aside the issue of overallI profitability) with considerably lower premiums - which, since that would F require intimate details of Compaq' production, development, and sales costs, is not surprising.   >   The entry level  VMS  system  would  still be more expensiveJ >     than  a  similar Wintel system, but not so much more expensive  thatJ >     people would reject it out of  hand.   Then  people  like  me  couldJ >     justify  the  extra  capital  expenditure  on the basis of immediateJ >     savings in management and software costs, etc.  My point being I canJ >     only stretch this argument so far, to  $1000 or $1500, but not $3500 >     or more.  F And, at least at present, Compaq pretty clearly does not feel that theK additional volume you represent at a $3500 price point justifies that price L point.  That's too bad, but just because it's what you'd like doesn't make i t a good choice for Compaq.    > J > > If you swear you'll buy from another source just because you're pissed off C > > that Compaq won't revamp their VMS product lines in a generally H > > non-cost-effective manner rather than make you choose between paying whatH > > you've always paid (or even somewhat less) for VMS systems or paying lessL > > and moving to a different platform, then Compaq has every reason to say,J > > "See you later:  that's not the way we do business, nor does any other > > company we know."  > J >         Bill, I'm not  pissed  off.   I'm  merely  reporting  what I seeJ >     around  me.  And what I see is ALL VMS LOSSES are LOSSES to  COMPAQ,' >     but I'd like to turn that around.   J So I'm sure would Compaq.  But I strongly suspect the way they will chooseE to try to turn it around is by trying to make their Windows offeringslK competitive with others' - since that's something they feel they need to doo anyway.e  #   Yes, I have a vested interest.  IiJ >     prefer to manage VMS and have the  SLAC  Control  System  suffer  noJ >     outages  due  to failures of my systems rather than attempt anythingJ >     similar on Suns (our ES10000  has  had  large numbers of unscheduledJ >     outages  since  it was installed last year, and they haven't  reallyJ >     let up even this  year),  etc.   And  if  the  alternative  were  toJ >     administrate  Wintel  machines,  I'd  find another career.  Personal >     preferences, of course.a >oK > > VMS isn't going to succeed because Compaq subsidizes it to avoid losingvC > > customers:  it's going to succeed on its merits, or not at all.- >-J >         It seems to me VMS is a  high margin endeavor for Compaq.  GivenJ >     those  high margins, recruiting _more_ VMS customers, even at low orJ >     zero margins, will help ensure the high margin  in  the  future.   IJ >     know that idea takes a bit of long term thinking and a little faith,H >     but the alternative is surely the demise of the VMS customer base.  L Yes, but those additional VMS customers need not be recruited at the bottom.D Especially initially, when Compaq is attempting to establish whether5 long-term growth is a viable strategy at all for VMS.   K *If* Compaq can start to turn VMS around in the areas most receptive to it,oE *then* they'll have a lot more reason to have faith that some low-endFK sacrifice in profitability now could produce more-than-compensating effectsBI down the road.  But until they've established that there *is* a 'down thea; road' potential, asking them to make sacrifices (aggressive H price-reductions, new bottom-end hardware initiatives, VMS ports) is not
 realistic.   >e > [...]aK > > If a $2K Windows workstation really can satisfy your needs, then you'rerI > > likely not going to get a cost-effective alternative in a VMS productg >iJ >         The Wintel machines _don't_ satisfy my needs.  However, they areJ >     cheap and therefore we get them  foisted  upon us.  As a result, andJ >     just  as  an example, we have one of our senior  software  engineersJ >     (probably 20+ years at SLAC) spending 30-50%  of  his  time  lookingJ >     after  20  or  so  Wintel  machines  in  our group.  He has far moreJ >     important things to do, he wants to stop fussing with the PC's (evenJ >     though he personally likes to play with then) and it must be costingJ >     SLAC a bundle in  terms  of  that  part  of  his salary dedicated toJ >     Wintel  support functions.  These are _additional_ costs relative toJ >     the VAXstations  they  replaced,  since  satellite  VAXstations  (orJ >     Alphastations)  have zero additional support costs when they're partJ >     of  my  cluster  (aside   from   30   minutes   or   so  of  initial  >     configuration on my part).  K That's part of your organization's cost analysis (and if they can't performt? it competently, don't blame Compaq for the result).  But if thedH price-dependent behavior (whether rational or not) of organizations likeK yours does not justify changes in the directions you'd prefer, that doesn't L necessarily make Compaq unreasonable:  Compaq may well just be realistically& evaluating its own costs and benefits.   >a > [...] K > > and this will likely continue to be true even if Compaq prices VMS more A > > aggressively (in the manners I've described) and brings out ac cost-reducedI > > DS0x at, say, $2500 vs. $3500 for the DS10 hardware.  Whether you buy. the > > > Windows workstation from Compaq or from Dell is up to you. >SJ >         Your premise is false.  The Wintel  machines do _not_ satisfy my >     needs.  K Then by definition you have ceased to function, and your organization seemst3 likely to take note of this fact, albeit belatedly.a  I It seems more likely that the Wintel machines do not satisfy your *wants*sI (in fact, that's what the phrase 'make do' means:  otherwise, it would beo? impossible to 'make do').  They may also not satisfy your needscL *cost-effectively*, but that's a matter that needs to be settled between you and your organization.  , In sum, your thinking in this area is fuzzy.  >    But  the  cost _differential_ between  them  and  currentlyJ >     available Alpha workstations means we have to make do with less thanJ >     meets our needs.  If Compaq comes out with a VMS workstation that  IJ >     can  purchase  for  $3500  or less (after discounts, I'll grant thatJ >     small point), then  the  capital  cost  differential is small enoughJ >     that  I  can  justify the purchase on other cost savings.   I  thinkJ >     that's what others in this thread have been trying to say all along:J >     you don't really need a sub-$2000 VMS system, but you need the  costJ >     differential  between  the  Wintel systems and the VMS systems to beJ >     reduced far enough that you  can  make  a rational, believable pitchJ >     for  the  higher priced system.  And for Compaq, that means  seedingJ >     the VMS customer base of small businesses  and  institutions,  whichJ >     inevitably  grow  into  larger  businesses and institutions (if theyJ >     don't fail) needing  bigger,  more  expensive  and higher margin VMS >     computers in the future.  G Or not:  that's Compaq's assessment to make.  It's one they may be more$J ready to make if they see evidence of success in their efforts (at least IG hope they are starting such efforts) to turn VMS around in the areas inh( which they *do* expect to make a profit.   >eH > > And as I've said, if that's an objective difference in their WindowsI > > offerings vs. Dell's, they'll likely try to solve the problem so that  youeJ > > will choose Compaq Windows workstations - but if that's just you being" > > pissed off, they likely won't. > J >         Again, I'm not pissed off.   Frustrated perhaps, not pissed off.J >     _You_  said that.  I'd appreciate you not attributing to me things I >     didn't say or imply...  L I'm just trying to make sense of otherwise hard-to-rationalize statements on
 your part.   >oJ >         As for Compaq  trying  to  solve  their problems vis-a-vis Dell,& >     that's  neither  here nor there.  I Au contraire:  from Compaq's viewpoint (which is, after all, the one thatt< will effect changes, if any), it's likely the central issue.  $   They certainly never came  to  ourJ >     site and said, "we know VMS is expensive on the  desktop,  so  we'llJ >     help  you  migrate  to Compaq PC's, and by the way, we'll make you aJ >     better deal than Dell or anyone  else  because we really want you asJ >     customers."  Nope.  Nada.  So I don't see Compaq trying to solve theJ >     "Dell" problem at all, and I don't really care whether  they  do  or
 >     not.  L Ah, but *Compaq* likely cares.  Now, if you bothered to bring your situationL to their attention as a Compaq vs. Dell issue, they might well perk up theirK ears (and just *might* learn something about VMS too, in the process).  ButoJ since you're not interested in anything that takes Compaq's realities intoK account, you'll both likely just continue down the roads you're on, withouti meeting.   > J >         Furthermore, history shows that Affinity failed miserably!  ThatJ >     is, VMS customers, for the  most  part,  do NOT choose Compaq WintelJ >     solutions  if  they leave VMS.  Once they leave Compaq (and  DigitalJ >     before), a whole world of PC and unix vendors opens up,  and  havingJ >     been  frustrated  by  the  apparent  intransigence of Digital in theE >     past, they tend to go for a clean start with some other vendor.r  B Like I said, pissed off.  Oh that's right, *you're* the exception.   >vJ >         So you can  make  all  the  arguments  you  want  in  terms of aJ >     business  case  for  Compaq to push/sell/offer cheap  PC's  but  notJ >     inexpensive VMS workstations, but it's all just theory (not  to  sayD >     hot air) if every VMS "migration" is a revenue loss to Compaq.  J Au contraire (again):  my view explains observed (i.e., real-world) CompaqG behavior, whereas yours (at least as far as having any effect on Compaqc( behavior) is what appears to be hot air.   - bill   >u >         -Ken > --/ >  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet:h Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edul< >  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924< >  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515L >  ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----D >  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:00:04 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>u) Subject: Re: Charon-VAX: Hobbyist Edition - Message-ID: <39555994.5CEE76CA@earthlink.net>e   Timothy Stark wrote: >  > Hello Folks: > J > Today I checked Charon-VAX web site and found out that beta-test versionJ > was released today.  I downloaded a copy from its web site and installed > it but...t > I > I am not happy with the hobbyist edition because I found out that it is D > severally crippled.  They said that they left out several featuresH > like taping handles, ethernet interface, etc for the hobbyist edition.J > Without taping handle and ethernet interface,  I can't import and exportE > my data within Charon-VAX!  Yes, it is very closed system.  Beware!o > E > However, I already am continuing to develop my full open-source VAXt; > emulator from a scratch under my current PDP-10 emulator.t >  > Any suggestions?   YES! GET BUSY!  H I realize that sounds harsh. However, it was complacency that led to theG petrification of the Free-VMS project! Everyone is waiting for "someoned else" to do it...K   -- p David J. DachteraP dba DJE Systemsw" http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:+ http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2000 20:46:17 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)( Subject: college experience with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <8j36mp$s3g@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <OF8D9EC420.DA0A5B1A-ON07256907.007718FE@rsc.raytheon.com>, David D Miller <ddmiller@notes.west.raytheon.com> writes:F >---------------------- Forwarded by David D Miller/RWS/Raytheon/US on	 >Hi Dave!o >iI >My boss and I were up at Compaq in Nashua earlier this week to meet witheE >the OpenVMS group there. They feel we are in the midst of an OpenVMSbE >renaissance, and are actively supporting the revision of some of ouroT >current titles, and looking for new books too, as well as seeking college kids withK >some knowledge of OpenVMS who might be looking for employment with OpenVMSyG >customers. (We are delighted, since this is a long-awaited insight for > >Compaq--that customers need and want books on the product...) > H >Compaq would love to get a line on college grads with VMS experience soI >their customers can try to hire them, I gather! So it could be a win-win  >situation here.   Talk about out of touch!  K And where _exactly_ are these "college kids" supposed to get their OpenVMS e experience?   I I really hope the folks in Compaq who said this are not so deluded as to iB really believe OpenVMS still has a significant presence on collegeF campuses!  The kiddies certainly cannot afford new OpenVMS machines ofI their own (and what would they do with them anyway?).  The used ones that I they could obtain are so old and slow that it would be silly to buy them, K and the labs and central servers where they might once have been exposed todM the OS have long since migrated 99.9% to Unix or Windows. Even most CS majorsiE probably never touch this OS, unless _maybe_ they take OS design or ao) course on the history of OS development. a  I Moreover, there are no signs whatsoever of a "renaissance" for OpenVMS in A academia.  "Last dying twitches" is a closer description.  CompaqgE may be selling some monster servers to corporations, but it's sellingmI precious little OpenVMS to colleges.  In fact, the only sales that I knowvE of are to groups that are looking for faster machines to run existingeE OpenVMS software.  I'd be amazed if there are any "new" sales of thisiB platform in the academic market at all, with the remotely possiblyK exception that there may be sales of large servers for business purposes att the larger state schools.   K Compaq has given academics no reason whatsoever to stay with this platform:)K the OS itself and the hardware it runs on cost too much, there is virtuallyeC no native software, only limited quantities of ported software, thetE academic program stinks in comparison to the competition, an end user C requires incredible determination and must be nearly clairvoyant tonH actually complete a purchase successfully, and now, in what is certainlyJ the final straw, it turns out that on the same hardware, Linux outperformsI OpenVMS by huge factors under typical work loads for these sorts of smalls
 machines.    As ye sow, so shall ye reap.  E We'll see how long the "renaissance" continues once the small pool ofo9 people already experienced in OpenVMS has been depleted. n   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edua? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:17:02 -0500 # From: "Mark E. Levy" <mark@fsi.net> , Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS' Message-ID: <39554F7E.6BF2D50C@fsi.net>    David Mathog wrote:p  G > We'll see how long the "renaissance" continues once the small pool ofs: > people already experienced in OpenVMS has been depleted.  M Well, as the old cigarette slogan used to go, "I'd rather fight than switch."    --E ---------------------------------------------------------------------o Mark E. Levy, President " System Management Associates, Inc. 847-291-1550 x202s 847-753-6832 fax www.sysman-inc.com levy@sysman-inc.comvE ---------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:18:24 -0500 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>e, Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <39555DE0.FADC636@earthlink.net>   "Mark E. Levy" wrote:  >  > David Mathog wrote:o > I > > We'll see how long the "renaissance" continues once the small pool of < > > people already experienced in OpenVMS has been depleted. > O > Well, as the old cigarette slogan used to go, "I'd rather fight than switch."i  C Indeed - the very genesis of the Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Homed Page.    -- m David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsi" http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:+ http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:21:13 -0500u7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>h, Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS- Message-ID: <39555E89.8D94E668@earthlink.net>c   David Mathog wrote:t >  > In article <OF8D9EC420.DA0A5B1A-ON07256907.007718FE@rsc.raytheon.com>, David D Miller <ddmiller@notes.west.raytheon.com> writes:H > >---------------------- Forwarded by David D Miller/RWS/Raytheon/US on > >Hi Dave!  > >.K > >My boss and I were up at Compaq in Nashua earlier this week to meet withoG > >the OpenVMS group there. They feel we are in the midst of an OpenVMSuG > >renaissance, and are actively supporting the revision of some of ourVV > >current titles, and looking for new books too, as well as seeking college kids withM > >some knowledge of OpenVMS who might be looking for employment with OpenVMSSI > >customers. (We are delighted, since this is a long-awaited insight fora@ > >Compaq--that customers need and want books on the product...) > >dJ > >Compaq would love to get a line on college grads with VMS experience soK > >their customers can try to hire them, I gather! So it could be a win-win  > >situation here. >  > Talk about out of touch! > L > And where _exactly_ are these "college kids" supposed to get their OpenVMS
 > experience?c > J > I really hope the folks in Compaq who said this are not so deluded as toD > really believe OpenVMS still has a significant presence on collegeH > campuses!  The kiddies certainly cannot afford new OpenVMS machines ofK > their own (and what would they do with them anyway?).  The used ones thatoK > they could obtain are so old and slow that it would be silly to buy them, M > and the labs and central servers where they might once have been exposed to O > the OS have long since migrated 99.9% to Unix or Windows. Even most CS majors G > probably never touch this OS, unless _maybe_ they take OS design or ad* > course on the history of OS development.  D Blast! There's that damned affordable thing again! Bloody ubiquitous
 isn't it?!   Ruddy bother, eh what?  z --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemss" http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:+ http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2000 04:14:37 GMT! From: gigglegs@aol.com (Gigglegs)hG Subject: How to install SRM console from alpha firmware version 4.45 ong: Message-ID: <20000625001437.18040.00001570@ng-fn1.aol.com>  K ALpha station 200 4/233 system.  I tried putting in the hobbyist cd rom andMJ tried installing new firmware on my system.  It doesn't recognize the fileK system.  I am new to this and I don't know what to do...any ideas?  My maintN goal is to actually install open vms to my machine ( which is running winnt4.03 right now).  Please any help will be appreciated.  r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:39:43 GMTu0 From: Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org>7 Subject: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition 8 Message-ID: <j2g55.223302$MB.4033098@news6.giganews.com>   Hello Folks:  A Yesterday, I installed Charon-VAX (beta-test version) without anynH problems.  I attempted to copy an image from my Hobbyist CD to decus.dskB but it did not work.  I believe that it is possible in CD2Image orE somewhere in Windows 98SE.  I was kept was told that the system can'tc* find specific file with '\\.\E:', etc. :-(  F However, I got an idea and switched to Linux to check out.  I was ableH read the Hobbyist CD by using 'vmscd' command without any problems.  Now7 I tried to copy an image from it by using 'dd' command:0  (   dd bs=32768 if=/dev/cdrom of=decus.dsk  H I was able copy it into my hard drive.  It hold 681 MB contents..  Now IA switched back to Windows 98SE.  I edit the charon.ini file to add D 'decus.dsk' to device/disk mapping as DKA1:.  Then I run Charon-VAX.0 Amazing.  I was able to boot DKA1: successfully!  H I followed instructions to install OpenVMS 7.2.  I installed OpenVMS 7.2 without any problems....  H Now I got my license paks from Montagar Hobbyist web site because I am aF member of DECUS since 1998.  When I was asked for CPU serial number, IH tried to figure out.  I looked into Compaq OpenVMS web site and searchedF for info about how to get id from CPU itself.  Now I do a VMS command:     $ sysid = f$getsyi("SID")    $ show sym sysid  G I got CPU serial number and go back to the Hobbyist web site.   I got anF license pak for OpenVMS 7.2 successfully.   Now I tried to apply a pakB into license database by using cut and paste.  I had overrun errorI problems so that I had to enter them by using my hands.  Now system is up " and running successfully.  Whew...  H However, I still am figuring out how to import and export my data withinF my VAX emulator (Charon-VAX) because Hobbyist edition does not supportI ethernet interface.   I read this newsgroup and learned someone's attemptS' to import files into his Charon system.   F I got two files from Kermit ftp site: vmsmit.hex and vmsdeh.mar files.F First I transmitted vmsmit.hex successfully.  Now I have a big problemI with 'vmsdeh.mar' transmit.  I kept to get overrun errors.  I tried a fewtH times again but it resulted the same!  Yes, it always bombed out at same line after .EVEN ...    I Does anyone successfully transmit vmsdeh.mar into Charon system?  I am soeD stuck with crippled hobbyist edition because SRI kept Hobbyists fromD access network and tape units.  That is much difficult to import and3 export data without network and tape handlings. :-(o   Help!z   -- Tim Stark   -- tC Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org, sword7@firesword7.nettJ --------------------------------------------------------------------------F "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that H whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:33:11 GMT 1 From: Pat Jankowiak <vaxhackery@worldnet.att.net> ; Subject: Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition 0 Message-ID: <39559A57.E4FAE96B@worldnet.att.net>  % Have you checked this? I just got it.t  ! Posted to DECUServe by Pete Sivia   >                   -< Charon-VAX hobbyist beta now available >-  A     FWIW: the beta of the hobbyist release of Charon-VAX has beent	 posted atp?     www.charon-vax.com.  It emulates a uVAX II only.  There are 
 functionalF     limitations in it, the .PDF you find after installing the kit says thatA     networking and tape handling is not included.  There might bee more, IgE     haven't been able to check.  They want to include these functionst in@     the commercial kit to recoup their development costs.  (I am neither$E     defending or objecting to this -- I just wanted to let folks knowa abouto
     this.)  E     The hobbyist version does have a routine (CD2IMAGE) to covert theo VMSe?     hobbiest distribution kit into a 650 MB (on your PC's disk)j	 containereA     that Charon-VAX can read and from which you can install VMS &y layered 
     products.t       Timothy Stark wrote: >  > Hello Folks: > C > Yesterday, I installed Charon-VAX (beta-test version) without any.J > problems.  I attempted to copy an image from my Hobbyist CD to decus.dskD > but it did not work.  I believe that it is possible in CD2Image orG > somewhere in Windows 98SE.  I was kept was told that the system can't , > find specific file with '\\.\E:', etc. :-( > H > However, I got an idea and switched to Linux to check out.  I was ableJ > read the Hobbyist CD by using 'vmscd' command without any problems.  Now9 > I tried to copy an image from it by using 'dd' command:  > * >   dd bs=32768 if=/dev/cdrom of=decus.dsk > J > I was able copy it into my hard drive.  It hold 681 MB contents..  Now IC > switched back to Windows 98SE.  I edit the charon.ini file to addgF > 'decus.dsk' to device/disk mapping as DKA1:.  Then I run Charon-VAX.2 > Amazing.  I was able to boot DKA1: successfully! > J > I followed instructions to install OpenVMS 7.2.  I installed OpenVMS 7.2 > without any problems.... > J > Now I got my license paks from Montagar Hobbyist web site because I am aH > member of DECUS since 1998.  When I was asked for CPU serial number, IJ > tried to figure out.  I looked into Compaq OpenVMS web site and searchedH > for info about how to get id from CPU itself.  Now I do a VMS command: >  >   $ sysid = f$getsyi("SID")  >   $ show sym sysid > I > I got CPU serial number and go back to the Hobbyist web site.   I got anH > license pak for OpenVMS 7.2 successfully.   Now I tried to apply a pakD > into license database by using cut and paste.  I had overrun errorK > problems so that I had to enter them by using my hands.  Now system is upe$ > and running successfully.  Whew... > J > However, I still am figuring out how to import and export my data withinH > my VAX emulator (Charon-VAX) because Hobbyist edition does not supportK > ethernet interface.   I read this newsgroup and learned someone's attempti) > to import files into his Charon system.h > H > I got two files from Kermit ftp site: vmsmit.hex and vmsdeh.mar files.H > First I transmitted vmsmit.hex successfully.  Now I have a big problemK > with 'vmsdeh.mar' transmit.  I kept to get overrun errors.  I tried a fewoJ > times again but it resulted the same!  Yes, it always bombed out at same > line after .EVEN ... > K > Does anyone successfully transmit vmsdeh.mar into Charon system?  I am soOF > stuck with crippled hobbyist edition because SRI kept Hobbyists fromF > access network and tape units.  That is much difficult to import and5 > export data without network and tape handlings. :-(a >  > Help!u >  > -- Tim Stark >  > --K > Timothy Stark   <><     Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org, sword7@firesword7.neteL > --------------------------------------------------------------------------G > "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, thatSJ > whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.0 > Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:59:53 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)( Message-ID: <8j30ef$kbs$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Rob Young <young_r@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message-% news:TkwM6x8aw65z@eisner.decus.org...: >G9 > Quick and dirty to get this thread going before someonet > hijacks it...r >a; > Far as I can tell, if Google hits 10000 servers year-end,8B > with each server holding 1 Gig of memory, they have 10 Terabytes: > of memory aggregate, not being used very well I suspect. >f8 > Son of Wildfire with 1 Terabyte of memory would be one< > very expensive box BUT would make very good use of memory. >y
 > Conjecture:  >a7 > Northern Light uses shadowset where primary member is : > a RamDisk (I/O is directed to RamDisk, write I/O goes to9 > both RamDisk and shadowset member) of 400 Gigabytes and08 > *entire* index easily fits on RamDisk.  Northern Light: > then is able to do Real-Time Indexing.  Shadowset member; > is massive 0+1 and the gating factor is the controller ito< > hangs off of... 100 MByte/second write speed, with battery! > backed write-back cache ;-) ...s  E OK, since your enthusiasm to 'get this thread going' appears to be and invitation for comment:h  I You, once again, have allowed your enthusiasm for RamDisk to blind you tot  the need to examine the details.  I Volume indexing in a massive index is write-bandwidth-limited rather thanoJ write-latency-limited - assuming that by 'real-time indexing' you actuallyI mean 'continuously-updated indexing' (vs. batch-updated indexing), ratherdK than something with hard timing and synchronization constraints.  And sincetI random insertions into a gargantuan index typically spread themselves outnI over the data set rather than repeatedly target the same index pages (formG the most part - there'll be *some* write-coalescing, but not a dramaticAJ amount), the write bandwidth will be constrained by the backing store, notH the write-back cache (which thus will be a benefit primarily in reducingH transient lock durations - which themselves, being spread out around theH index, will seldom be a major problem anyway; it'll also help smooth outD bursty write activity, but in an automated operation this size writeF activity tends to be relatively smooth compared to many environments).  L [Another way of looking at it is that solid-state backing store (rather thanD a write-back cache) might give you the same write latency but better bandwidth.]p  I And on the read side, simply caching the data makes it available somewhat H faster than placing it on RamDisk, which has a significantly longer code8 path to get it even if it doesn't have to go through theL close-to-millisecond delay imposed by a SCSI adapter.  I've pointed this out before.c   >HD > Big differentiator here is real-time component.  Compaq whitepaperB > talks about new generation spiders .. perhaps real-time indexing< > becomes a reality for Northern Light and further sets themA > apart.  Meanwhile, Google is up to 25000 servers late next yearl > and looking good. > > happy and Linus is happy as it is a showcase site.  However,= > real-time indexing for those folks is more than pipe dream, ? > their total systems cost is more than twice Northern Light's,n= > their total staff costs... well the joke in the industry ise= > that there over 50 times as many cars in the Google parkingt* > lots.  Northern Light "wins" hands down. > 9 > Shared disk versus shared nothing and data partitioningn7 > versus single database... well let's just say at this 1 > point the single database view is far superior.7  L Wrong, again.  As I pointed out recently elsewhere (and copied to you), dataB partitioning, when feasible, is a real win even in the shared-diskK environment.  And for a humongous indexing application, it's quite feasiblelG (you partition the index as well:  both help parallelism compared to an-J unpartitioned shared-disk approach).  And, of course, both read and stableK write-back caching are just as applicable to a partitioned configuration asV( they are to a shared-disk configuration.  
    Too bad9 > it took this long to bear that out...  but sometimes in @ > Titanic struggles, it takes a *long* time to declare a winner.  G I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry, because shared-disk approaches inlI cases like these don't offer sufficient advantage to compensate for theirtA decidedly non-commodity nature.  Now, if Compaq were to develop at& *commodity* shared-disk file system...   - bill   >  > Robr >g   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2000 22:47:15 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.383428.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell)n= Subject: Re: Pricing of hardware/software for hobbist/students. Message-ID: <D15VTLvei3p8@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  ` In article <B57A6D2A-7D4EB@165.247.44.7>, "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> writes:C > On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 12:11 PM, Matt Morley <matt@mpcm.org> wrote: H >>I just graduated high school and will be attending a community college >>in the Fall. >>E >>I've spent just over the last year working part time for a software I >>company (Software Partners) that writes backup/restore/media managementeI >>for VMS (amoung many things). I've been doing testing on other projects , >>and doing web/network related stuff there. > J > I used their Thruway product many years ago.  I don't know if it's stillI > around.  It's pretty much been superseded by the TMSCP server in recentE > versions of VMS.  E It is *if* you are running in a cluster.  If your machines are merely J networked, thruway still has a purpose, since it requires only decnet (or M optionally tcp in the recent versions).  A group of vms machines that are notfO clustered is not unheard of, given the recent threads about the cost of cluster8	 licences.t    J A few years back, I did some contract work at a site that had some type ofK phobia about clustering, I don't know why.   I don't think it was a licensemH cost issue.  Anyway, they had some fairly large vaxen, but they were not< clustered.  So these people were fairly heavy thruway users.     Waynee -- .O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxe: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)mO ===============================================================================eO Otter, on dining with Bluto:"It's perfectly safe if you keep your arms and legsp 			away from his mouth."   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2000 19:11:28 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)& Subject: set display to PC over modem?. Message-ID: <8j3150$k13$1@info.service.rug.nl>  D In a pinch, I have to log into a VMS machine from a PC over a modem F connection.  Is there anyway to use SET DISPLAY so that something can F display at the screen I'm then sitting at?  What about using an LKxxx  from a PC---any chance?p   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:14:45 -0500K) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>i* Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?7 Message-ID: <009801bfde18$d8704140$020a0a0a@xile.realm>r  + Phillip Helbig <helbig#astro.rug.nl> wrote:     E > In a pinch, I have to log into a VMS machine from a PC over a modemeG > connection.  Is there anyway to use SET DISPLAY so that something can.G > display at the screen I'm then sitting at?  What about using an LKxxxa > from a PC---any chance?i  L If you have an X-11 emulator on your PC, and a TCP/IP path to your VMS host,/ then yes, it will eventually display something.i  G A lot will depend on the speed of your link, and what you are trying to  display.  L Using a 24K modem routed through a Windows NT RAS server was not as bad as I expected it to be :-)-  & I do not know about the LKxxx on a PC.   -Johne wb8ytw@qsl.network   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2000 21:35:00 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)* Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?. Message-ID: <8j39i4$m6h$1@info.service.rug.nl>  8 In article <009801bfde18$d8704140$020a0a0a@xile.realm>,   + "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> writes::  , >Phillip Helbig <helbig#astro.rug.nl> wrote: >nF >> In a pinch, I have to log into a VMS machine from a PC over a modemH >> connection.  Is there anyway to use SET DISPLAY so that something canH >> display at the screen I'm then sitting at?  What about using an LKxxx >> from a PC---any chance? > M >If you have an X-11 emulator on your PC, and a TCP/IP path to your VMS host,s0 >then yes, it will eventually display something.  H I can telnet to the machine: typing TELNET in a DOS window or telnet:// F in IE brings up some sort of terminal emulator.  It's fast enough for  what I need on a 56k modem.c  H >A lot will depend on the speed of your link, and what you are trying to	 >display.i  H I was thinking of bringing up a DECterm :-) or perhaps Netscape running H on the VMS machine (to access things with file:/).  At most, XDVI or GV. Nothing fancy.    F What would such an x-11 emulator be called?  Keep in mind that I know H next to nothing about PCs.  Would it likely to be installed on a random  PC?   B I guess the first thing I should know is what the argument of SET E DISPLAY should be.  Just the IP address which shows up in SHOW USERS/gB FULL won't cut it (unless I somehow need to allow the stuff to be  displayed at the PC end).8  C In the old days, one could always hope to find a VT connected to a 51 terminal server; I would much prefer this method.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:22:37 -0400y, From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>* Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?> Message-ID: <hshubs-437FDF.18223724062000@news.mindspring.com>  C In article <8j3150$k13$1@info.service.rug.nl>, helbig@astro.rug.nl i wrote:  E >In a pinch, I have to log into a VMS machine from a PC over a modem wG >connection.  Is there anyway to use SET DISPLAY so that something can VG >display at the screen I'm then sitting at?  What about using an LKxxx   >from a PC---any chance?  - Using X Windows, maybe.  Have you got Exceed?r   -- a Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adept    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:15:13 -0500o7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>c* Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?- Message-ID: <39555D21.ED8F97C0@earthlink.net>    Phillip Helbig wrote:o > 9 > In article <009801bfde18$d8704140$020a0a0a@xile.realm>,o > - > "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> writes:o > . > >Phillip Helbig <helbig#astro.rug.nl> wrote: > >cH > >> In a pinch, I have to log into a VMS machine from a PC over a modemJ > >> connection.  Is there anyway to use SET DISPLAY so that something canJ > >> display at the screen I'm then sitting at?  What about using an LKxxx > >> from a PC---any chance? > >lO > >If you have an X-11 emulator on your PC, and a TCP/IP path to your VMS host,a2 > >then yes, it will eventually display something. > I > I can telnet to the machine: typing TELNET in a DOS window or telnet://oG > in IE brings up some sort of terminal emulator.  It's fast enough fore > what I need on a 56k modem.V > J > >A lot will depend on the speed of your link, and what you are trying to > >display.m > I > I was thinking of bringing up a DECterm :-) or perhaps Netscape runningoJ > on the VMS machine (to access things with file:/).  At most, XDVI or GV. > Nothing fancy. > - > What would such an x-11 emulator be called?b  8 There's an X emulation package for W/9x from HummingbirdB (http://www.hummingbird.com/) called eXceed. I've never priced it.  E There's also Reflection/X from WRQ (http://www.wrq.com/). It's rathergF pricey, but from what I hear, worth the financial stretch it may take.   >  Keep in mind that I know I > next to nothing about PCs.  Would it likely to be installed on a randomo > PC?   	 Doubtful.y  mC > I guess the first thing I should know is what the argument of SETcG > DISPLAY should be.  Just the IP address which shows up in SHOW USERS/t > FULL won't cut it [snip]   Actually, yes it will:  & $ SET DISPLAY/NODE=a.b.c.d/TRANS=TCPIP  8 ...so long as the X-server on your Wintel PC is running.  D > In the old days, one could always hope to find a VT connected to a3 > terminal server; I would much prefer this method.s  E Well, if character-cell interfaces would suffice, Hyperterm via a COMuE port would suffice in a pinch. Personally, I recommend WRQ ReflectioneG Terminal Emulation if you can afford it by any stretch. There are othera% choices, of course, for lower prices.b   -- d David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems-" http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:+ http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:00:24 -0500e) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> * Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?7 Message-ID: <001101bfde49$21e99bc0$020a0a0a@xile.realm>g  + Phillip Helbig <helbig#astro.rug.nl> wrote:n9 > In article <009801bfde18$d8704140$020a0a0a@xile.realm>,- >-1 > "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes:  > >mI > >If you have an X-11 emulator on your PC, and a TCP/IP path to your VMSm host,c2 > >then yes, it will eventually display something. >-I > I can telnet to the machine: typing TELNET in a DOS window or telnet:// G > in IE brings up some sort of terminal emulator.  It's fast enough fory > what I need on a 56k modem.c >R  H I do not know what your connections are, In the U.S. it is 33K both waysI unless you have a special connection from your host system into the TELCOe network.   >"I > I was thinking of bringing up a DECterm :-) or perhaps Netscape runningcJ > on the VMS machine (to access things with file:/).  At most, XDVI or GV. > Nothing fancy. > G > What would such an x-11 emulator be called?  Keep in mind that I knowdI > next to nothing about PCs.  Would it likely to be installed on a randomt > PC?m  I The lowest cost commercial one that I am aware of (prices vary widely) isg? eXcursion that is bundled with the Pathworks 32 client license.-  $ The current versions work very well.  I Also I have used Reflection X, and Hummingbird Exceed, and they also workn
 very well.  J I have seen betas from Attachmate and from IBM, but I do not know what the status of those products are.t  L Most of the vendors will ship you a timebombed demo for evaluation purposes.  H There is also a free MI/X X server on the DECUS archives, but I have not used it too heavily.  C > I guess the first thing I should know is what the argument of SETw > DISPLAY should be.  9 $set display/create/transport=TCPIP/node= name or addresse  3 > Just the IP address which shows up in SHOW USERS/nC > FULL won't cut it (unless I somehow need to allow the stuff to be  > displayed at the PC end).f   -Johno wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:27:37 -0500 (CDT)m From: sms@antinode.org* Subject: Re: set display to PC over modem?) Message-ID: <00062423273781@antinode.org>t  H    No bets on quality, but there's a cheap (formerly free?) X server forG Windows or Mac at "http://tnt.microimages.com/www/html/freestuf/mix/". o8 With that and PPP, it might be possible to do something.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)eC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)dG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)i9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:46:23 -0400r$ From: "Ray T." <lists@aik.tec.sc.us> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?- Message-ID: <39551E1F.938667AB@aik.tec.sc.us>e   hobbsb@my-deja.com wrote:. > @ > > The laptop on the other hand I am in the market for, and I'd@ > > *love* it if that notebook ran VMS native!  That would allow5 > > me to do basically everything I want on a laptop.l > D > Could an Alpha be packaged as a replacement processor for a WintelF > system?  The specs for Intel's Pentium III in an SECC package are atE > <http://developer.intel.com/design/pentiumiii/datashts/244452.htm>.: > H > Would slowing the Alpha chip solve the temperature and power problems,H > or should a whole new Alpha chip be developed?  Would any of the olderH > chips work?  The SECC package should have enough room for "glue" chips/ > to convert between Alpha and Pentium signals.. > F > Would VMS just require some drivers to handle the Wintel hardware or- > would major structural changes be required?  > J > It appears that the SECC package is for desktop boxes, but it's a start. > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.p  F It would be easier to use an existing alpha chip on a motherboard madeD for the AMD cpu that has the same pinout and same bus structure.  (IF forget exactly which AMD cpu that is.)  Then all you need is the minor details of BIOS, etc.i   Ray T.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:01:31 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?+ Message-ID: <395567F6.7D6F2DA@videotron.ca>f   Bill Todd wrote:M > > Compaq has a small window of opportunity in which it could make Alpha ther > > Linux box of choice. > < > And just how would it wrest this title from IA32 hardware? > J > - There are zillions of those boxes already out there, and Linux can run > effectively on most of them.  N If Alpha based systems perform better for the same price, the alpha will startH to look attractive. If Alpha attracts applications which rubn infinitelyK faster in 64 bit mode than in that glorified 8086 billybox, then Alpha williN garner more market. And once Alpha is seen as a growing platform, it will make it grow even faster.  8 Beating the 8686 market is very difficult. But getting aK significant/respectable market share is definitely acheivable, and once you'L get there, the goal of beating the 8086 won't seem so far fetched especiallyH since the 8086 will be pretty well end-of-life and all those zillions ofI billyboxes will be left behind, too slow to run the software of that day.-  J If Compaq gives on on Alpha because it doesn't think Alpha can replace theN 8086's 90% share of the market, then Alpha will never go anywhere. But what ifD an agressive Alpha pricing/marketing would yield a 20% marketshare ?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.352 ************************