1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 25 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 353       Contents: 500au wont boot  Re: 500au wont boot 1 Re: advice on adopting reasonably large computers 2 Re: Affordable Debate Summary (was: VAX on Intel?) Re: backup of backup# Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS # Re: college experience with OpenVMS & Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?& Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?& Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?& Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?P Re: DFU hazard ? (was Large amount of files in one directorycausesveryslow perfoP Re: DFU hazard ? (was Large amount of files in one directorycausesveryslow perfoC RE: How to install SRM console from alpha firmware version 4.45 o	n $ Re: Mitnick (was Re: Fun VMS Facts?)2 Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition2 Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition2 Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition. RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters4 Re: Pricing of hardware/software for hobbist/student Re: Seagates on VAXstations P Selecting Hobbyist Hardware - Re: Pricing of hardware/software forhobbist/studen Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:18:40 GMT , From: "mrsignor" <mrsignor@bellatlantic.net> Subject: 500au wont boot5 Message-ID: <QEn55.927$aA3.32525@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net>    Hi,   H     I have recently acquired a 500au, which refuses to boot. Obviously i could be1     doing something DUMB ... but i dont think so.   6     During the boot process, from CD, the machine says  %     blah, blah, is a valid boot block      reading 1082 blocks      bootstrap code read in2     base=if000, image_start = 0, image_bytes=87400     "      "      "      jumping to bootstrap code     1     and we never return, and nothing else happens   C     This happens when i use a VMS 7.2-1 or 7.1 CD, or a firmware CD   (    any thoughts, other than it's broken.  I    BTW, what was the original warranty on these machines, 1,2, or 3 years    TIA    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:59:40 -0700 5 From: "Larry D Bohan, Jr" <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com>  Subject: Re: 500au wont boot2 Message-ID: <nzhWOWJUfeLgd5o6ZeOUYqpdsk6=@4ax.com>  , On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:18:40 GMT, "mrsignor"" <mrsignor@bellatlantic.net> wrote:  7 >    During the boot process, from CD, the machine says & >    blah, blah, is a valid boot block >    reading 1082 blocks >    bootstrap code read in 3 >    base=if000, image_start = 0, image_bytes=87400  >    ... >    jumping to bootstrap code >     2 >    and we never return, and nothing else happens  3 Try enabling both sets of user/debug boot messages; - and see if you get anything more interesting,   M http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/72final/6522/6522pro_012.html#index_x_349    ie,    >>> boot -flags 0,30000   #  Hexadecimal Value System Response    )       1     Allows a conversational boot  4              (system displays the SYSBOOT> prompt). -       2     Maps XDELTA to a running system.  F       4     Stops the boot procedure at the initial system breakpoint.  -       8     Performs a diagnostic bootstrap.  B      10    Stops the boot procedure at the bootstrap breakpoints. 8      20    Omits header from secondary bootstrap image. A      80    Prompts for the name of the secondary bootstrap file.  ;     100   Halts the system before the secondary bootstrap.  7    2000  Marks corrected read data error pages as bad.  4 * 10000 Displays extensive, detailed debug messages &              during the boot process. 8 * 20000 Displays selected user-oriented messages during                 the boot process.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:57:54 +0200 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>: Subject: Re: advice on adopting reasonably large computers( Message-ID: <8j4kuq$76l$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  7 Be careful how you connect the system to a wall outlet. = You do not get 220V by just putting two plugs in two adjacent  sockets.> Many DEC systems have a switch on the power supply that allowsB you to select 220-240 V or 100-110 V. Recent devices figure it out9 by themselves. Open up the box and find the power supply. 5 The transformer may have a tap marked 110V (or 100V). 
 Use that one. C Next, remember good old Mr. Ohm: half the potential means that your G current doubles, assuming that the load does not change. Make sure that / the power cable is able to handle that current.   = Last issue: IIRC US wall outlets deliver 110V 60 Hz AC power. H Europe has 230V 50 Hz. The frequency difference may do surprising thingsD to the system if the line frequency is used as reference for certain signals.  J It may all work, just be careful because it is so easy to put a power cord on aH device which just happens to match the outlet. I once saw a new Japanese printer I plugged in a socket, only the power cord was replaced. Now Japan has 100V L and the outlet was (then) 220V. The printer exploded discreetly, but messily once the cadaver was opened up....   
 Hans Vlems    1 Christopher Smith heeft geschreven in bericht ...  >Hi, > G >Since I've seen a lot of talk in the group about computers that are -- H >give or take -- the size of your refridgerator, I thought this would be >the place to ask my question: > H >I'm thinking about getting a relatively large machine.  This particularK >machine is a small fridge in size -- a rack type unit with what seem to be J >two backplanes and some memory/cpu and miscelaneous cards.  There are twoG >normal size mounting bays for scsi peripherals, one of which is filled  >with a tape drive.  > G >That in mind, it shouldn't suck as much power as some larger machines, A >since the drives won't need to be as large as the system itself.  > H >The cord doesn't have a plug on it but it looks like the main power wasK >supposed to be 220 volt, so I imagine I'll have to plug it into my washing C >machine outlet (this is in the us, so we have 110 volt wall power, 7 >normally.) or divide it up over two 110 volt circuits.  > H >At any rate, the question is, asuming that I decide to take this thing,A >does anyone have any advice aside from "seek professional help?"  > K >Now, this certainly isn't the place to talk about this particular machine, J >but I'd like to ask anyone if they have experience -- good or bad -- withI >the things.  It's a Sequent Symetry S5N (Where I think N is a 1, but I'm K >not sure ;)  Again, I don't want to take up the newsgroup's bandwidth with G >talking about the particular machine, since it's not a DEC box, but if 1 >anyone knows any specifics, could you e-mail me?  > 	 >Regards,  >  >Chris > L >=========================================================================== ====? >"My two cents" (http://rootworks.com/twocentsworth.cgi?128562) < >Christopher Smith(chriss@pubserv.com) Prgramer^W Programmer  >Prime Synergy of Champaign, IL.& >-------------------------------------J >"Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes andI >weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes ; >and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 L >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >  >    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 18:18:37 GMT  From: heimann@ecs.umass.edu ; Subject: Re: Affordable Debate Summary (was: VAX on Intel?) , Message-ID: <8j3tok$8qm$1@odo.ecs.umass.edu>  , In Article <39541CD0.5D0381F0@earthlink.net>9 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:  >Phillip Helbig wrote: >>  6 >> In article <NC+LKPcZunOa@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>,G >> Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX:  >> 926-3515) writes: >>  L >> >        At  my  site  (basic  research   in  physics,  a  DOE  supportedL >> >    laboratory  but  also  wearing  a  .EDU  "hat"),  equipment  can  beL >> >    purchased with just my manager's signature _if_  it's  under  $5000.L >> >    That  $5000  is  a very hard limit for many education and governmentL >> >    institutions.  Things  in  the  purchasing  area  get  so  much more% >> >    complicated above that value.  >>  H >> I've seen people place orders for a CPU, a motherboard, a tape drive,J >> hard disk, some memory etc, all with the same company, and individuallyJ >> all less than the limit.  If the company wants to voluntarily stick theJ >> stuff together as a favour to the customer, that's their business.  :-) > H >I'm gonna post this on the Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Message Board! >  >GREAT idea!  G I have seen this done too, however the auditors took a very dim view of C the attempt to avoid purchasing rules.  So it usability is entirely G dependent on how well purchasing rules in an organization are enforced.    Joe Heimann    heimann@ecs.umass.edu    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:46:39 +0100 2 From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: backup of backup 6 Message-ID: <3955B8DF.52747B71@BlueBubble.demon.co.uk>   Terry Marosites wrote:   > Hello all, > F >  I have created a backup/image to a tape , and want a copy the tape.E > Can one of you kind folks  toss an example my way of a tape to tape  > copy . >   = The only fully supported way to do this is to use the product  Saveset Manager (SSM).  ? Just doing a standard copy from tape to tape, with both mounted D labelled (i.e. not /Foreign), you'll very probably be OK (especially= if you're using some decent tape technology, NOT Exabytes !).   < If you did the original backup with /Interchange then you'll. increase the probability of success even more.  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:00:18 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> , Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS( Message-ID: <8j474k$dkf$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:39555E89.8D94E668@earthlink.net...  > David Mathog wrote:  > > J > > In article <OF8D9EC420.DA0A5B1A-ON07256907.007718FE@rsc.raytheon.com>,9 David D Miller <ddmiller@notes.west.raytheon.com> writes: J > > >---------------------- Forwarded by David D Miller/RWS/Raytheon/US on
 > > >Hi Dave!  > > > H > > >My boss and I were up at Compaq in Nashua earlier this week to meet withI > > >the OpenVMS group there. They feel we are in the midst of an OpenVMS I > > >renaissance, and are actively supporting the revision of some of our F > > >current titles, and looking for new books too, as well as seeking college kids with G > > >some knowledge of OpenVMS who might be looking for employment with  OpenVMS K > > >customers. (We are delighted, since this is a long-awaited insight for B > > >Compaq--that customers need and want books on the product...) > > > L > > >Compaq would love to get a line on college grads with VMS experience soE > > >their customers can try to hire them, I gather! So it could be a  win-win  > > >situation here. > >  > > Talk about out of touch! > > F > > And where _exactly_ are these "college kids" supposed to get their OpenVMS  > > experience?  > > L > > I really hope the folks in Compaq who said this are not so deluded as toF > > really believe OpenVMS still has a significant presence on collegeJ > > campuses!  The kiddies certainly cannot afford new OpenVMS machines ofH > > their own (and what would they do with them anyway?).  The used ones thatG > > they could obtain are so old and slow that it would be silly to buy  them, L > > and the labs and central servers where they might once have been exposed toJ > > the OS have long since migrated 99.9% to Unix or Windows. Even most CS majorsI > > probably never touch this OS, unless _maybe_ they take OS design or a , > > course on the history of OS development. > F > Blast! There's that damned affordable thing again! Bloody ubiquitous > isn't it?!  L Not really:  the parenthetical phrase that follows it says it all - *if* VMSF becomes a generally useful platform in the eyes of the general market,* *then* affordability will start to matter.   - bill   >  > Ruddy bother, eh what? >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems $ > http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:- > http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:16:43 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com, Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS> Message-ID: <80256909.00438FA0.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>   David Mathog wrote: N >>>Compaq has given academics no reason whatsoever to stay with this platform:K the OS itself and the hardware it runs on cost too much, there is virtually C no native software, only limited quantities of ported software, the E academic program stinks in comparison to the competition, an end user C requires incredible determination and must be nearly clairvoyant to H actually complete a purchase successfully, and now, in what is certainlyJ the final straw, it turns out that on the same hardware, Linux outperformsI OpenVMS by huge factors under typical work loads for these sorts of small  machines.<<<  K And isn't this one of the reasons that one of the points in Rich Marcello's O excellent presentation at European DECUS in April was that Compaq are preparing M to roll out free VMS licenses to education?,  A variety of hardware platforms L would cover what UK educational establishments require (I know of one that'sO running with an AlphaServer 2000 which replaced a VAX 6000-430 and 6000-510 for K general academic host-based processing).  Not everybody requires max'ed out  AlphaServer 4100s or GS140s.  H Add in the DECcampus program and it's a pretty good package, which it isI obviously in Compaq's interest to plug to fulfil their own business plan.    Steve.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2000 08:56:01 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) , Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3G6bV0r9ycdM@malvm2.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <8j36mp$s3g@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,  8     mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > K > I really hope the folks in Compaq who said this are not so deluded as to  D > really believe OpenVMS still has a significant presence on collegeH > campuses!  The kiddies certainly cannot afford new OpenVMS machines ofK > their own (and what would they do with them anyway?).  The used ones that K > they could obtain are so old and slow that it would be silly to buy them, M > and the labs and central servers where they might once have been exposed to O > the OS have long since migrated 99.9% to Unix or Windows. Even most CS majors G > probably never touch this OS, unless _maybe_ they take OS design or a + > course on the history of OS development.   >   F      I have to concur with this. 10 years ago we used to teach all ourI Computer Science courses on VMS, now none are taught there. We still make D VMS accounts available to students but they're pretty much only usedE for email, and most students have scrapped even that in favour of web B enabled free services such as Hotmail. Most incoming students onlyC know about Windows, those with more knowledge will have exposure to F Linux. When they've even heard of VMS they tend to hold it in contempt@ ( I recall finding a "This is your brain on VMS" take off on theC "This is your brain on drugs" ad on the board in one of the labs ).   G    The sad part is that I actually have an instructor who has expressed D an interest in including some VMS in one of his courses. He has someF old Alphaserver 1000s he'd like to run it on, but of course there's noG way he can come up with the tens of thousands of dollars to buy the VMS C licenses, cluster licenses, etc. We can't use the CSLG for the base E licenses, and to even use it for the rest would push us into the next E pricing tier and cost us thousands of dollars per year - an untenable D position for what is currently just a "curiosity" to the department.  F    Of course theres the "free VMS for colleges" program that Terry hasG alluded to, but I can't find anyone in Compaq who knows about ( or willrB admit to knowing about ) this program. Then again, if this is justD the base licenses and no layered products it's probably not going to? help ( it's clustering in particular that this instructor finds F interesting ). Even if the program *is* of value I'll bet that it will only be available in the US.   K > Moreover, there are no signs whatsoever of a "renaissance" for OpenVMS in C > academia.  "Last dying twitches" is a closer description.  CompaqrG > may be selling some monster servers to corporations, but it's selling & > precious little OpenVMS to colleges.  B    Everything Compaq has said in the last couple of years seems toD indicate colleges are not one of the markets Compaq is interested inB selling VMS into ( unless it's some huge operation buying clusters of Wildfires ).h  & >  In fact, the only sales that I knowG > of are to groups that are looking for faster machines to run existing G > OpenVMS software.  I'd be amazed if there are any "new" sales of thiscD > platform in the academic market at all, with the remotely possiblyM > exception that there may be sales of large servers for business purposes at/ > the larger state schools.  >   I    Of the 15 colleges in British Columbia that used to run VMS ( for both-B instruction and administration ) none are using it for instructionF anymore and only about 5 have any VMS presence in their admin systems.D Of those 5 I think we're the only one that isn't trying to scrap VMSE as quickly as possible (I'd give the rest 1 or at most 2 years before . VMS is gone completely from their operations )  M =============================================================================hM Malcolm Dunnett      Malaspina University-College   Email: dunnett@mala.bc.caaH Information Systems  Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA V9R 5S5     Tel: (250)755-8738   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2000 09:04:56 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) , Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <YsBIXuQReopX@malvm2.mala.bc.ca>  ) In article <8j474k$dkf$1@pyrite.mv.net>, s,    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  G >> Blast! There's that damned affordable thing again! Bloody ubiquitousL
 >> isn't it?!r > N > Not really:  the parenthetical phrase that follows it says it all - *if* VMSH > becomes a generally useful platform in the eyes of the general market,, > *then* affordability will start to matter. >   F     But one of the oft quoted reasons VMS isn't seen as of interest toM the general market is that "we can't find staff that know anything about it".sK (of course "we can do the same thing on a Unix/NT box for a lot less money"t is right up there also. )w  I     How does one going about changing that if the places people generallyb( learn about such things can't afford it?  K     See my earlier response for a concrete example of a glimmer of interest2A in VMS in academia which will soon fade soon while Compaq ignoresH
 the issue.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2000 09:18:08 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) , Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <BWHbuOO3fvN2@malvm2.mala.bc.ca>  ? In article <80256909.00438FA0.00@qedilc01.qedi.quintiles.com>, o%    steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:r > M > And isn't this one of the reasons that one of the points in Rich Marcello'ssQ > excellent presentation at European DECUS in April was that Compaq are preparing O > to roll out free VMS licenses to education?,  A variety of hardware platformstN > would cover what UK educational establishments require (I know of one that'sQ > running with an AlphaServer 2000 which replaced a VAX 6000-430 and 6000-510 foriM > general academic host-based processing).  Not everybody requires max'ed out- > AlphaServer 4100s or GS140s. >   K     What if you're not in the UK? Will the program be available in the restoK of the world? Before you say "yes", consider that the DECCampus program you H mention below is not available in North America, nor (AFAIK) is the CSLGH available in Europe. Even in North America there are inconsistancies; inM the US education gets substantial discounts on Pathworks, we don't get any in1 Canada.e  M     My point is that Compaqs education programs are a hodgepodge of differentyN offerings in different places, so a comment Rich Marcello might make in EuropeK should not be construed to apply to someone elsewhere in the world. This inbH itself is one of the main problems, it's hard to understand exactly whatL offerings might apply to a given site, and you often find that when you hearH about exactly what you need it turns out it's not available in your area anyway.r    J > Add in the DECcampus program and it's a pretty good package, which it isK > obviously in Compaq's interest to plug to fulfil their own business plan.u >   H    Would the DECCampus program allow the academic departments to use theI layered products for free? At this point that's about all they're willingaE to invest in VMS. Until you can recapture their interest you can't bexH demanding they shell out tens of thousands of dollars to get clustering,O TCP/IP and the other bits they'd need to actually make VMS interesting to them.e  M ============================================================================= M Malcolm Dunnett      Malaspina University-College   Email: dunnett@mala.bc.cayH Information Systems  Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA V9R 5S5     Tel: (250)755-8738   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:10:06 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e, Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS( Message-ID: <8j5ecf$rk6$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:YsBIXuQReopX@malvm2.mala.bc.ca...* > In article <8j474k$dkf$1@pyrite.mv.net>,. >    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >eI > >> Blast! There's that damned affordable thing again! Bloody ubiquitousw > >> isn't it?!  > > L > > Not really:  the parenthetical phrase that follows it says it all - *if* VMS J > > becomes a generally useful platform in the eyes of the general market,. > > *then* affordability will start to matter. > >u >iH >     But one of the oft quoted reasons VMS isn't seen as of interest toJ > the general market is that "we can't find staff that know anything about it".F > (of course "we can do the same thing on a Unix/NT box for a lot less money" > is right up there also. )d  L Those are reasons offered by people who are *already* interested in VMS, notJ the general computer-buying public - who couldn't care less whether VMS isD 'affordable' or not, since it doesn't support the things they need aJ computer for (or at least doesn't support them in ways that are familiar).   > K >     How does one going about changing that if the places people generally=* > learn about such things can't afford it?  H One *first* makes VMS a platform that's attractive to the people who areJ price-sensitive.  It only makes sense to start optimizing pricing for thisI low-end market *after* there's some reason to believe that the demand forhD VMS in that segment will be significant (which was the gist of David3 Mathog's parenthetical comment that I referred to).o  L Academia is a conspicuous exception, which is why it's given special pricingL (is the new initiative reported here a while ago still stalled in the CompaqD bureaucracy?  if so, that may say a lot about Compaq's ability to doC *anything* effective):  exposure to students who have at least someeB motivation to explore VMS's strengths has far more potential to be4 cost-effective, and minimal impact on profitability.   - bill   >nD >     See my earlier response for a concrete example of a glimmer of interestC > in VMS in academia which will soon fade soon while Compaq ignoresA > the issue. >F   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:42:27 -0400h+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>a, Subject: Re: college experience with OpenVMS1 Message-ID: <39560C43.52D7C8D9@trailing-edge.com>y   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > * > In article <8j474k$dkf$1@pyrite.mv.net>,. >    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > I > >> Blast! There's that damned affordable thing again! Bloody ubiquitouse > >> isn't it?!a > >bP > > Not really:  the parenthetical phrase that follows it says it all - *if* VMSJ > > becomes a generally useful platform in the eyes of the general market,. > > *then* affordability will start to matter. > >o > H >     But one of the oft quoted reasons VMS isn't seen as of interest toO > the general market is that "we can't find staff that know anything about it".f  E I recently interviewed for a Software Engineer position for a *large* > (facility covers over a hundred miles) shop.  The ad indicatedB they were looking for "Unix, WNT and possibly VMS" experience.  InD real life, they are utterly dependent on VMS.  During the interview,E I found out that they were scared to ask for "VMS Software Engineers" 2 because they thought nobody would reply to the ad.   Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:16:21 -0400 ) From: yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.net / Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?I9 Message-ID: <39562277$3$lllp186$mr2ice@news.flashcom.com>e  ; In <8iqnbu$1tn$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>, on 06/25/00 aB    at 11:16 AM, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) said:  J >  There is quite a bit of information available on the work to speed the H >  availability of the ports of new Oracle releases and tools to OpenVMSJ >  and to increase the suite of available Oracle tools, though apparently  >   H Given that Oracle is an unreliable puddle of feces does anyone care what platform it gets ported to?i   Roland   -- v; ------------------------------------------------------------D yyyc186@flashcom.net              To Respond delete ".illegaltospam"6                             MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.528                             For a Microsoft free univers; -----------------------------------------------------------m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:20:02 -0400 ) From: yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.net7/ Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?r9 Message-ID: <3956237a$4$lllp186$mr2ice@news.flashcom.com>-  1 In <3951775D.E8BDE9E8@videotron.ca>, on 06/25/00 n=    at 11:20 AM, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> said:o  H >To be the devil's advocate, what if the VMS engineers were busy workingF >on full unix compliance of VMS which would make all ports much easier >from unix source code ?  J Which would make VMS as febil an OS for production use as UNIX is and thusJ Bill Gates would finally have one and all OS's on the market would suck asI bad as NT, therefore everyone could just run the sucky NT OS.  Talk aboutiI heading in the  WRONG direction.  Let me guess, a Compaq MBA came up withr+ this idea....could it have been Palmer?????      Roland   -- l; ----------------------------------------------------------- D yyyc186@flashcom.net              To Respond delete ".illegaltospam"6                             MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.528                             For a Microsoft free univers; -----------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:44:40 -0400d' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h/ Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?s( Message-ID: <8j5csp$p44$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 <yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.net> wrote in message3 news:39562277$3$lllp186$mr2ice@news.flashcom.com...c< > In <8iqnbu$1tn$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>, on 06/25/00D >    at 11:16 AM, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) said: > K > >  There is quite a bit of information available on the work to speed thesJ > >  availability of the ports of new Oracle releases and tools to OpenVMSK > >  and to increase the suite of available Oracle tools, though apparentlyl > >T >eJ > Given that Oracle is an unreliable puddle of feces does anyone care what > platform it gets ported to?r  K At a guess, the people who actually make system purchasing decisions - does  that include you?g   - bill   >  > Roland >a > --= > -----------------------------------------------------------?F > yyyc186@flashcom.net              To Respond delete ".illegaltospam"8 >                             MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.52: >                             For a Microsoft free univers= > -----------------------------------------------------------2 >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:46:53 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>8/ Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ? ( Message-ID: <8j5d0t$pep$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 <yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.net> wrote in message3 news:3956237a$4$lllp186$mr2ice@news.flashcom.com...o2 > In <3951775D.E8BDE9E8@videotron.ca>, on 06/25/00? >    at 11:20 AM, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> said:i > J > >To be the devil's advocate, what if the VMS engineers were busy workingH > >on full unix compliance of VMS which would make all ports much easier > >from unix source code ? >cL > Which would make VMS as febil an OS for production use as UNIX is and thusL > Bill Gates would finally have one and all OS's on the market would suck asK > bad as NT, therefore everyone could just run the sucky NT OS.  Talk aboutsK > heading in the  WRONG direction.  Let me guess, a Compaq MBA came up withh- > this idea....could it have been Palmer?????l  < No, someone apparently less incompetent than you seem to be.  G A great deal of VMS's robustness compared to most Unixes comes from itsnI implementation quality - something that supporting a Unix interface won't E compromise.  Things like Unix buffer-overrun weaknesses don't need toeE compromise robustness either - as long as null-terminated strings aredI validated before use, something VMS has proven fairly competent at doing.   B In other words, giving people what they seem to want - on a systemH considerably superior in many ways to what they may be used to - makes a fair amount of sense.e   - bill   >R >c > Roland >e > --= > -----------------------------------------------------------aF > yyyc186@flashcom.net              To Respond delete ".illegaltospam"8 >                             MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.52: >                             For a Microsoft free univers= > -----------------------------------------------------------  >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:34:34 +0010i% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au Y Subject: Re: DFU hazard ? (was Large amount of files in one directorycausesveryslow perfol5 Message-ID: <01JR1573PQS20012DA@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>e    A bit old, but I *had* to reply.   Robert,   	 >Gotfryd,sG >Would you care to hire a translator so that you could post your latestnA >gibberish in a form of English that could be understood, at all.r  Q This is not a nice message.  In particular, your use of "gibberish" implies that rK Gotfryd carries on with little content, as others who shall be nameless do.   P On the contrary, I have read (admittedly a couple of times to understand -- but K I doubt that our Polish is anywhere near his English) many interesting and r. technical posts.  His mail always has content.  Q Comp.os.vms/Info-vax is international, because VMS is an OS (luckily) still used  
 worldwide.  P The language of the Internet is (fortunately for us) English, and we should not J put down anyone who participates in a news group such as ours, and with a P frequent valuable contribution, who happens to not have mastered our language.  O I hope that this paragraph does not sound condescending, it is not intended to.o  L Hopefully Gotfryd is "big" enough to be able to ignore your mal-posting and ) continue with his valuable contributions.w   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiae   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,j; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:09:32 +0200i" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>Y Subject: Re: DFU hazard ? (was Large amount of files in one directorycausesveryslow perfoc( Message-ID: <8j4lkj$92r$1@news.IAEhv.nl>   Paddy,  @ a bit old indeed but you were absolutely right to point his out.C English is not very difficult, especially when you grew up with it. B As a student, I spent some time in Poland and just to try to learnE that language: lots of cases, irregular as nothing else I've tried toiK learn and Polish probably ranks #1 in absolutely unpronouncable strings.... E I mean, just try and pronounce Szczecin. Most Poles have the courtesyo= not to laugh out loud when you try to speak their language...o  
 Hans Vlems  ; paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au heeft geschreven in berichtr, <01JR1573PQS20012DA@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>...! >A bit old, but I *had* to reply.W >f >Robert, > 
 >>Gotfryd,H >>Would you care to hire a translator so that you could post your latestB >>gibberish in a form of English that could be understood, at all. >rL >This is not a nice message.  In particular, your use of "gibberish" implies thatL >Gotfryd carries on with little content, as others who shall be nameless do. >uL >On the contrary, I have read (admittedly a couple of times to understand -- butlK >I doubt that our Polish is anywhere near his English) many interesting and / >technical posts.  His mail always has content.o >5L >Comp.os.vms/Info-vax is international, because VMS is an OS (luckily) still used >worldwide.t >nL >The language of the Internet is (fortunately for us) English, and we should notrJ >put down anyone who participates in a news group such as ours, and with aE >frequent valuable contribution, who happens to not have mastered ourt	 language.sL >I hope that this paragraph does not sound condescending, it is not intended to.  >.L >Hopefully Gotfryd is "big" enough to be able to ignore your mal-posting and* >continue with his valuable contributions. >p >Regards, PaddyM >o >Paddy O'Brien,j >Transmission Development, >TransGrid,  >PO Box A1000, Sydney South, >NSW 2000, Australia >c >Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063v >Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050<' >Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  >rF >Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people, < >but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam. >  >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:11:33 -0400r+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>tL Subject: RE: How to install SRM console from alpha firmware version 4.45 o	nJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284470@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>  / Here is a pointer to some online release notes:   B http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/astn200.html: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/ (main page)   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadae Professional Serviceso Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.coml       -----Original Message-----0 From: gigglegs@aol.com [mailto:gigglegs@aol.com]$ Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 12:15 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComsG Subject: How to install SRM console from alpha firmware version 4.45 ons    K ALpha station 200 4/233 system.  I tried putting in the hobbyist cd rom andlJ tried installing new firmware on my system.  It doesn't recognize the fileK system.  I am new to this and I don't know what to do...any ideas?  My main E goal is to actually install open vms to my machine ( which is runningr winnt4.03 right now).  Please any help will be appreciated.  i   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2000 10:28:13 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)n- Subject: Re: Mitnick (was Re: Fun VMS Facts?) 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-IgPD62o5LVSz@localhost>e  6 On Sun, 24 Jun 3900 11:23:35, Dan <dan@vrx.net> wrote:    eF > One thing that always bugged me about VMS security is that for a COM@ > (DCL) program, in order to run it the user normally needed theH > READ privilege, which means they could copy it or type it out, or someK > such, which I never wanted them to do, even doing tricky bits like makinghF > the directory Execute only for the users (a very nice trick indeed!)1 > doesn't help if they know the name of the file.a > H > Unless this has changed and can be run with just execute set for a DCL > (COM) program.  F I seem to remember having a problem with _nested_ COMs. The main could= be W:E and all would be OK until it did an @OTHER_PROC call. dF OTHER_PROC.COM needed READ access. This was 5.n.n. I've never checked E it lately (we're 6.2 now) 'cos I've still got one user site on 5.5.n.    Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2000 16:31:11 GMT0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz); Subject: Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Editionn5 Message-ID: <8j5c4f$rod$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>   8 In article <j2g55.223302$MB.4033098@news6.giganews.com>,2 Timothy Stark  <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote: : ...hH : I got two files from Kermit ftp site: vmsmit.hex and vmsdeh.mar files.H : First I transmitted vmsmit.hex successfully.  Now I have a big problemK : with 'vmsdeh.mar' transmit.  I kept to get overrun errors.  I tried a feweJ : times again but it resulted the same!  Yes, it always bombed out at same : line after .EVEN ... = : B : Does anyone successfully transmit vmsdeh.mar into Charon system? : G How are you trying to do it now?  From what kind of computer and OS are9G you transmitting them, using what software, on what kind of connection?u   - Frank0   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:09:00 -0700c5 From: "Larry D Bohan, Jr" <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com>$; Subject: Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Editionm2 Message-ID: <OTtWOXEM9ObbMuczObcn7ivwsAGF@4ax.com>  / On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:39:43 GMT, Timothy Stark # <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:>    G >I got two files from Kermit ftp site: vmsmit.hex and vmsdeh.mar files.uG >First I transmitted vmsmit.hex successfully.  Now I have a big problemrJ >with 'vmsdeh.mar' transmit.  I kept to get overrun errors.  I tried a fewI >times again but it resulted the same!  Yes, it always bombed out at same  >line after .EVEN ...  > J >Does anyone successfully transmit vmsdeh.mar into Charon system?  I am soE >stuck with crippled hobbyist edition because SRI kept Hobbyists fromtE >access network and tape units.  That is much difficult to import ando4 >export data without network and tape handlings. :-(  < when needing a 'ascii' upload of this sort, (but not Charon)2 I had better luck uploading to a TPU session, and 4 possibly with the typeahead SYSGEN params bumped up. ie,i  TTY_TYPAHDSZ               TTY_ALTYPAHD       . but since you're probably upload to a console : device (OPA0:) maybe also try setting the baud-rate lower, if possible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:24:04 +0100 $ From: Andy Burns <andy@burns.uk.net>; Subject: Re: My experience with Charon-VAX Hobbyist Edition 8 Message-ID: <ltfclsct4cer6fte5umaj0pihfc7e0f899@4ax.com>   Larry D Bohan, Jr wrote:  = >when needing a 'ascii' upload of this sort, (but not Charon)b3 >I had better luck uploading to a TPU session, and p5 >possibly with the typeahead SYSGEN params bumped up.i >ie, > TTY_TYPAHDSZ               > TTY_ALTYPAHD     l >i/ >but since you're probably upload to a console e; >device (OPA0:) maybe also try setting the baud-rate lower,a
 >if possible.u  G another possibility is using WRF Reflection which has it's own in builthH mechanism of uploading a MACRO32 file to the host, building it to make aJ rudimentary X/Y/ZMODEM utility, then using that to upload the full version% of it's own file transfer utility ...o       -- e
 Andy Burns   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:00:30 -0400e+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>-7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters J Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284472@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   Bill,   E >>> Only if you don't care about availability, since it makes rollingl upgrades impossible. <<n  K High availability clusters often use 2 common system disks for this purposewG ie. they want the capability of doing rolling system upgrades with ZEROyL application availability impact. To minimize mgmt effort, it is typical thatL shared SYSUAF's, common queue files, application, network and system startupD config files etc are established so that changes are only done once.  D This is the same principle used in multi-site, load balanced OpenVMSL clusters ie. common system disk per site allows planned datacenter shutdownsH with zero application availability impact. Simply migrate new users fromL systems in one datacenter to systems in the other datacenter. When all usersL are migrated to the other datacenter, the system in the other datacenter canL be shutdown. Once these systems are shutdown, the datacenter can be shutdownJ .. users do not even know this is going on, therefore, there is no need to even send out a notice.   K These are the types of capabilities that Customers are beginning to request2F when they start looking at Internet based applications where scheduledH system downtime is rapidly becoming unacceptable - if it has any type of  application availability impact.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada0 Professional Servicesf Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comf       -----Original Message-----, From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@foo.mv.com]& Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 12:59 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters       : Warren Spencer <warren.spencer@alcan.com> wrote in message3 news:8F5883284warrenspenceralcanco@142.14.12.164...v > Hi Francesco,- >-L > "Shared Nothing" clusters do not allow simultaneous access to a given diskI > by multiple hosts.  "Shared Everything" clusters do, as well as provide L > shared simultaneous access to other stuff (hence the "everything").  OtherH > stuff, in the OpenVMS world, includes batch and print queues, security > info, etc. > H > I remember a presentation in Syracuse by Microsoft in 1995 touting theH > _advantages_ of a shared-nothing clusters - most significantly, speed.J > Without the need for a distributed lock manager, speed improves.  That'sG > roughly equivalent to saying:  "I'll remove the air conditioner, bodyoK > panels, seats, and a bunch of other stuff from my car to improve milage".u  K To be accurate, it's much more like just removing the air conditioner:  theiI car remains eminently usable, just occasionally less comfortable.  On thedE other hand, it's kind of nice to *have* the air conditioner, since itlI doesn't use any measurable amount of additional gas unless you turn it ont$ (costs a bit more up front, though).   > I > If you have high reliability requirements, it's important that you booteG > multiple CPU's from the same image of the software - ie the same boot- disk.-  J Only if you don't care about availability, since it makes rolling upgrades impossible..  L > This is not possible in a Solaris cluster, according to some Sun experts II > found in the Solaris newsgroup.  They did say that Solaris clusters can-L > include up to 4 nodes, soon to be 8.  OpenVMS clusters can be much larger, > of course.  J This can be quite useful for workgroup-style clusters of workstations.  ItG also gives you much more headroom for *extremely* large configurations.>L Otherwise, given reasonably scalable SMPs, 4 nodes in a cluster is likely to be sufficient.   - bill  <   Solaris provides shared access to disks - assuming they'reI > served by a disk farm (likely SCSI) - but each system must have its own: > system disk. > L > Bottom line?  NT Clusters are the el-cheapo version of a real cluster, andH > Sun clusters come much closer to the OpenVMS ones, but still don't getJ > there.  Ask your application how much reliability / redundancy it needs,K > and how much $$$ you've got to spend on it.  If the answer is 10 cents or H > less, go for the NT cluster - and remember - you get what you pay for. >e > ws >i >d > -- > Warren Spencer > Systems Analysti > Alcan Aluminum Corporation >-K > << My employer does not necessarily agree with my opinions - neither do Im > >> >  > 3 > gennai@mx2.iat.cnr.it (Francesco Gennai) wrote in   > <XQbWoucmwstb@mx2.iat.cnr.it>: > ; > >Where I could find information and possibly a comparisone< > >between OpenVMS clustering and other systems clustering ?> > >(Eg.: sharing nothing clusters vs OpenVMS clusters, etc...)H > >I'm interested in URLs, books, white papers, personal opinions and so	 > >on....a > >f > >Francesco
 > >-----------= > >---------- Francesco Gennai                     Internet :s  > >francesco.gennai @ iat.cnr.it > >7? > >                               http://mail.iat.cnr.it/gennai@B > >IAT - CNR                            Phone    : +39-050-3152592B > >Area di Ricerca di Pisa              Fax      : +39-050-3152593 > >Via Alfieri, 1w > >56010 Ghezzano PISA   ITALY
 > >---------- 
 > >----------  >e   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2000 02:48:16 -04004 From: "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com>= Subject: Re: Pricing of hardware/software for hobbist/studenth* Message-ID: <B57B2372-73EE7@165.247.44.92>  3 On Sat, Jun 24, 2000 11:47 PM, Wayne Sewell  wrote:s? >In article <B57A6D2A-7D4EB@165.247.44.7>, "Robert Deininger" <c# >rdeininger@mindspring.com> writes:   K >> I used their Thruway product many years ago.  I don't know if it's still J >> around.  It's pretty much been superseded by the TMSCP server in recent >> versions of VMS.n >a+ >It is *if* you are running in a cluster.  f  H I had forgotten the decnet part.  Actually, I've never NOT had clustered VMS systems.   ---------------------------g Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:40:36 +0200w" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>$ Subject: Re: Seagates on VAXstations( Message-ID: <8j4jub$4mp$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  3 Sounds stupid indeed but it sure works for my RD54! 9 I'd recommend a rubber hammer though and tap the drive on-A the side. Holding it under an angle while doing that will help toR unsettle the bearing.t  
 Hans Vlems  # Jojimbo heeft geschreven in berichtr0 <036b4000.ab67dd28@usw-ex0104-033.remarq.com>...? >Did you try the old trick of smacking the drive smartly with a-@ >hammer?  Sounds stupid, but I have gotten a drive that was spun? >down for more that a year to get going at least long enough tog: >copy the data somewhere else.  What have you got to lose? >  >Jim >t8 >Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. >Up to 100 minutes free! >http://www.keen.com >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:19:16 -0500h) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>iY Subject: Selecting Hobbyist Hardware - Re: Pricing of hardware/software forhobbist/studena7 Message-ID: <018a01bfdea7$f8415880$020a0a0a@xile.realm>   * Matt Morley <matt@mpcm.organization> wrote  J > I've been reading up on the user manuals for OpenVMS from work during myJ > spare time and was wondering what it would cost to get a small system up > and running with TCP/IP. > G > I currently have several windows/Linux/BSD machines and would like to  > add VMS to my network. > # > Anyone got suggestions on prices?d  C Prices vary considerably and have no relationship to the value to a I Hobbyist, as many used resellers are geared to selling to those customersrH that can not or will not repair their production equipment with anythingC other than the same part that failed.  Even when a superior part isd available at a lower cost.  H Getting a good deal on the used hardware market will require that you doL some research and possibly asking questions here.  The archives on this list? are at http://www.deja.com in the comp.os.vms discussion group.0   -JohnS wb8tyw@qsl.network   (slightly revised)J Note 228.10            VMS as home computer, on the cheap               10 of 12hJ EISNER::MALMBERG "John Malmberg"                    107 lines  12-JUN-2000 13:14t;                      -< Selecting hobbyist hardware tips >--L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----;     Guidelines for newbies Selecting a Hobbyist VMS system.n  J     When evaluating acquiring used equipment to become an OpenVMS hobbyistK     you will have an unlimited amount of types of equipment to choose from.o  D     To simplify the writing for those that are concerned about beingH     technically correct, I will lump all VAX models together as VAX, andF     not pay attention to the marketing designations as VAXServer, VAX,B     MicroVAX, and VAXstation unless it is specifically applicable."     Likewise the same with Alphas.  K     While getting anything free is usually good, when you have to pay moneyy4     for things, some informed buying should be done.  G     Also be aware that it is often cheaper to buy an entire replacement1H     system that contains a needed part than the part it self.  Even from     the same vendor.    F     The four biggest things IMHO to be concerned with are memory, hardC     disk, and ethernet, and how to get the VMS CD-ROM image loaded.     J     Ethernet is mainly a problem with older Q-BUS VMS systems.  While someK     models of Q-BUS systems with the VAX 4000 Series, and the VAX 3400 havedK     built in ethernet adapters, on other systems it was an optional add on.t  J     There are three models.  DEQNA, DELQA, and DESQA.  The DELQA and DESQAG     are the ones that you want, and are also the hardest to find at any.H     reasonable cost.  The DEQNA will not work with many network programs<     and will greatly restrict what you can do with your VAX.    F     The next issue is memory.  If you do not want to run graphics, VAXI     systems can be made very tolerant of low memory conditions, depending,     on your skill.  G     For graphic applications, the more the memory the better.  VAX withcC     local graphics displays need a minimum of 32M memory for what IgK     consider minimum acceptable performance.  They also need to be at leastl      3 VUPs for supporting Motif.  D     Alpha systems need a minimum amount of 64M memory for acceptable     graphics performance.   J     The two big issues with memory is the maximum amount that a particularE     box can hold, and what type of memory you can put in it.  For theeK     newbie, I strongly recommend making sure that you acquire enough memoryzD     with the system that you will need.  It can be very expensive to     upgrade and hard to find.   K     Many of the boxes capable of running VMS take proprietary memory cards,:H     and these memory cards are not interchangeable between models.  EvenF     models that look similar may not be able to exchange memory cards.  H     It would be nice to have a list of VAX and ALPHA VMS capable systems@     that can take commodity SIMMS, but I do not have one, or the&     information needed to compile one.  G     So if you do not get enough memory initially, you may be stuck withi     what you have.    I     DISKS are in even a worse situation than MEMORY.  There are a varietyaI     of disk interconnects, and most of the older systems do not have gooddI     support for SCSI.  Q-bus SCSI boards are rare and presumed expensive,tJ     but occasionally show up cheap.  VAX 4000-300 and higher Q-bus systemsH     seem to know how to boot a KZQSA.  A KZQSA is intended for only tapeK     and CD-ROM and not magnetic disks.  And if you as a hobbyist put a SCSIe4     hard drive on it, it may work.  It also may not.  H     Third party Q-BUS adapters are more usable as they are usually fast,I     and look like a traditional Digital disk adapter.  They come in three-I     flavors.  Disk only, Tape only, and Disk + Tape.  There are also sometA     that require special drivers and therefore mostly unusable toMH     hobbyists.  The big advantage besides being faster than a KZQSA of aK     third party adapter, is that their controller emulation allows any typew%     of Q-BUS VAX to boot off of them.t  I     For the newbie, avoid purchasing any equipment that does not use SCSI G     disks to boot off of.  They are the only ones that you can maintain      economically.e  D     Of all the features likely to fail on your new system, the older*     proprietary disks are the most likely.    K     How to get the OS loaded is the next consideration.  If you have a SCSIiL     bus, VMS is a little picky on the CD-ROM drive.  It wants 512 byte fixedG     sector drives.  Some third party drives have been know to work, andd     some do not.  K     Once you have VMS loaded on one machine on the network, you can use thesI     hobbyist VMSCLUSTER license to set it up to allow you to network boot K     additional systems.  So a CD-ROM is not as much a requirement for later-     systems.  I     I believe that you can even set up cross platform (VAX-ALPHA) network)G     cluster client boot system, but that is more complex and I have notD     tried it(yet).  E     While this does not give a newbie all the answers, I hope will bea     helpful.  J     And if you do acquire equipment that you find you can not use, you canJ     usually find a home for it in exchange for parts that you can, or just     future goodwill.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:56:05 -0400o' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?( Message-ID: <8j46sn$djo$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message% news:395567F6.7D6F2DA@videotron.ca...o > Bill Todd wrote:K > > > Compaq has a small window of opportunity in which it could make Alphai thea > > > Linux box of choice. > >c> > > And just how would it wrest this title from IA32 hardware? > > L > > - There are zillions of those boxes already out there, and Linux can run  > > effectively on most of them. >hJ > If Alpha based systems perform better for the same price, the alpha will startnJ > to look attractive. If Alpha attracts applications which rubn infinitelyH > faster in 64 bit mode than in that glorified 8086 billybox, then Alpha willK > garner more market. And once Alpha is seen as a growing platform, it wille make > it grow even faster. > : > Beating the 8686 market is very difficult. But getting aI > significant/respectable market share is definitely acheivable, and onceE you.C > get there, the goal of beating the 8086 won't seem so far fetchedt
 especiallyJ > since the 8086 will be pretty well end-of-life and all those zillions ofK > billyboxes will be left behind, too slow to run the software of that day.  >aL > If Compaq gives on on Alpha because it doesn't think Alpha can replace theH > 8086's 90% share of the market, then Alpha will never go anywhere. But what ifsF > an agressive Alpha pricing/marketing would yield a 20% marketshare ?  H I'm sometimes perhaps a tad too literal - it's entirely possible that byL 'the Linux box of choice' what David really had in mind was indeed somethingL like 20% market share (and perhaps a bit of envy from a large portion of theJ other 80%) - which would be damn attractive if the Linux market takes off.  G But it's still a tough call for Compaq:  if they reduce Alpha prices to.F anything like PC prices, then are they really all that much better offJ selling Alphas than PCs?  (Don't answer too quickly:  there are a *lot* ofJ elements involved.)  We could wish that the opportunities to take over theI world that existed 15 years or so ago were still there (not just for VMS,uJ but for any good hardware or software architecture), but in reality thingsL are much different today and the fact that Compaq has feet in all camps just makes them harder.  K If it were my decision, I'd immediately start some pilot experiments to getiL a better idea of where more aggressive action might be rewarded, rather thanL close my eyes and take a major gamble without such exploration (I just don'tC think Compaq's so near extinction that it needs to do that - but itK0 certainly needs to get ready to do *something*).  D We'll see.  The big question right now may be whether Compaq has the( leadership to do *anything* significant.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2000 10:28:12 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)b Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-4Tq37c51GvIJ@localhost>   E On Sun, 23 Jun 3900 06:11:11, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@Killeen.cc> wrote:a  ( > >  a. sell lots with low profit margin/ > >  b. sell fewer with a larger profit margin.e > I > Business 101 - The only manufactures who consistently turn a profit are L > those who are either the highest volume manufactures, and thus achieve the> > greatest productivity, which allow for profit at low prices   E i.e. Case a. and they stay that way because a competitor can't quite i" beat them on price or performance.  m  or the K > manufactures would offer a premium product which consumers are willing tor > pay a premium price for.  E Case b. and they stay that way because a competitor can't quite beat   them on price or performance.n  V > It is not a case of simply volume equals profits. You must be a high volume producer > with a low cost structure.    F That isn't what my Economics teacher taught me and isn't what I wrote.; I did forget his get out clause : 'all things being equal'.s  ? > Premium products (like OVMS) do not has a low cost structure.h  E Agreed but you've got to beat your competitor whichever model you're n running under.  ,G > This fact has been proven industry by industry.  The manufactures who1G > consistently fail to make money are the ones in the middle - they are-L > neither suppliers of the highest volume product or the product that offers; > the most premium value.  If you build a graph based on...c >  > Profits  ! >             !  >             !c >             !r- >             ------------------------ Volumer > N > ....it will almost always plots out as a U shaped curve where the low volumeJ > highest premium manufacturers on the left side make high profits and theJ > high volume highest efficiency manufacturers of the right side make highL > profit.  The ones in the middle always are low or no profit manufacturers.  F But they are there. Which is just as well 'cos the other's would have F competion and would all migrate to the high margin end. They are thereF 'cos they live in hope and haven't actually gone to the wall. And theyE know, to a degree, that they don't have to go to the wall as long as s, they have their little areas where they win.  N > This is where the "we must be the 1 or 2 supplier in the market" theory thatL > GE started came from.  A classic example of that in our industry is TandemM > (on left side) and Dell (on right side).  If Compaq was to increase volumessK > but failed to achieve a number 1 or close number 2 status they would findtE > they would not achieve the volume to offset the market leaders costnK > advantage.  They would then be faced with loosing money on every unit andvH > unable to make it up on volume.  You wouldn't even get to the point of* > addressing the issue of cost structures.  C Do they need 1 or 2 status? COMPAQ had it with PC's when they sold ,C their IBM clones years ago. But that's gone. Do GE still build and bF sell radios? Its UK equivalent lost that market to the Japanese nearlyF 30 yrs ago. GEC-UK is now known as Marconi and he remodelled itself asD a telecoms company. It's market changed, COMPAQ's has been changing  too!  .F > A company these days needs to decide if it is in the premium productL > business or the volume product business but it can't successfully within aL > product line be in both.  A premium product means extra costs.  Unless youL > are dealing with a very mature technology (laundry detergent) you can't be > both and profititable. > N > I really wonder how many current OVMS customers would be happy if Compaq didK > what would be required to its cost structure to achieve a volume product.dN > You can't offer a high tech product with premium service at volume prices...  = And you can't sell anything if you can't compete on Price or eF Performance. Compaq's problem is that is dependant on other companies ? to sell the applications that make their h/w patforms and OS's tD successful. If the development of applications under VMS  ceases/is E frozen/ has its priortiy lowered because the cost of the development  D platform is or is _perceived_ to be too high, then development will F cease and we're knackered. The elasticity in this high margin end will have been exhausted.  F This is where we approach the subtle stuff which. in my reply to Bill F I, incorrectly, attributed the base of your U-curve to. It's incorrectD because it would need to be explaining a transition from one end of E the curve to another. That isn't, as far I understand it, isn't what   anybody is proposing.-  = I've not followed the commercial development of SUN, IBM and sD DEC/COMPAQ too closely. However, I do notice that SUN appears to be ? doing very well. It's certainly taking over as the development  E platform in our area (mainly due to RATIONAL's ADA Dev. environment).   C I do seem to remember reading statements that implied that SUN had AA priced its systems to attract customers. It seems to have been a -E successful policy. Maybe COMPAQ could come up with a policy designed iB to attract people back. That might include making it possible for D people looking for market opportunities to _afford_ to do it in VMS : instead of just ging to WIN2K or Linux. Plant some acorns.   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2000 10:28:10 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)y Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dqS0nU3qeznT@localhost>d  F On Sun, 24 Jun 3900 12:36:03, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:  J > > On Sun, 20 Jun 3900 05:53:50, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote: > >v9 > > >  Your closing statement ("Margins be damned if they-F > > > lose business (read: profits) to your competitors.") indicates a
 > fundamental F > > > misunderstanding of the relationship between margins and profits
 > (withoutG > > > the first, you have none of the second), which may explain a lot.  > >nI > > Come on Bill, my  O-level (for 16'yr olds) Economics course taught mem7 > > that there is more than one way to accrue profit :-d > > ( > >  a. sell lots with low profit margin/ > >  b. sell fewer with a larger profit margin.  > H > Perhaps you should read the statement you quoted above again:  it saysI > 'without the first, you have none of the second', not 'with less of then( > first, you have none of the second'.    F And actually, if you read your whole paragraph and then mine, you willC see there is _no_ contradiction. I have used two lines to describe mF Jeff's U -curve which confirm that to make a profit you need a margin,F However, it also points out that there is more than one way to skin a 7 cat. The base of the U-curve is down to 'subtle stuff'.h  F To be honest my reason for writing it in the first place was because IE got the impression you were insulting David's intelligence. However, bC maybe you were just reacting to the 'margins be damned' phrase and zE forgetting the setting in which it was made. That's the trouble with f6 the written Usenet word and emoticons don't help much.  E  > > Whether you apply a or b (or any of the variations on the theme) G > > depends on things like the law of Supply and Demand, elasticilty of J > > the market (price really) and all sorts of subtle stuff. I suspect you0 > > and David are applying different variations. > >tE > > I believe David is trying to point out that although Compaq has auI > > captive market for many of its systems, it does not have to stay thatnJ > > way. He proposes one way of maintaining or expanding that market. It'sE > > not so different to the statements that were made when DEC/COMPAQe? > > announced they were withdrawng from the Workstation market.n > I > Except that there's a significant difference between withdrawing from a L > market you're already in and entering a new market (including all the cashK > outlays that this requires, in the case of a port or heavily-cost-reduced B > new hardware) that you already address with other product lines.  E But the effect is the same. No workstations, we all agreed, means no rB new VMS development (actually that really means little or no new) C which would mean VMS leaves a legacy to be picked up by ??. If the aB hardware is available but people are not prepared to fork out the F money, well it's the same thing and VMS has its dwindling high margin B niche, which will be constantly under attack from its competitors.  D > > want people to grow up liking VMS and/or understanding where itsD > > strengths (and weaknesses) are, you've got to expose them to it. > E > Absolutely.  And if anyone were able to make a real case that majornL > system-cost reduction would expose VMS to a significantly-increased number0 > of people, then it would be worth considering. > N > I was recently told privately that an attempt *had* been made a while ago toE > see what kind of market could be forecast based on sales the people1J > advocating this level of reduction (plus any other parties listening in)H > could *personally* vouch for, and that the result was under $2 millionN > (revenue, not profit).  Perhaps 1000 systems, at most - at least many likelyI > going to customers already familiar with VMS.  About 0.1% of the volumetM > Compaq would need to justify even considering a port (remember, at very low H > margins, $2 billion in revenue doesn't add much funding to current VMSM > development).  Only a few percent (at most) of the volume Compaq would needeN > even to justify any significant cost-reduction effort on the Alpha platform.  F Nobody said it was _easy_. But that's why the marketing/management menC get paid. From little acorns. stout oaks shall grow... You do have A* plant them tho'. The 'Subtle stuff' again.  H > > Particularly now. There's a new generation of programmers, engineersH > > and PHB's who do _not_ know anything about VMS. They see the WindowsJ > > GUI everywhere, they hear the Linux hype, they are not exposed to VMS.G > > If that persists, VMS will fall back into a high margin niche whereaI > > the elasticity of price is high but the customers will look for othero? > > solutions, if only because a bean-counter will do the sums.m > I > Surprise:  that's exactly where VMS is already, which is why resurgencee( > based on price isn't likely to happen.  ) But perhaps it can help to stem the tide.   K > If Compaq can change the perception that VMS is a legacy system, then VMS M > will have a chance - and then more aggressive low-end pricing might well bev) > an effective long-term growth strategy.i  F It all depends on how you perceive the 'Chicken and the egg'. You see 1 it one way and David (and myself) see it another.r   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.353 ************************