1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 30 Jun 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 363       Contents: COE (was: OpenVMS loses big)& Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?& Re: Compaq paying for software ports ?0 Compaq Viewed As a PC-Only Company By Analysts ? re: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2 RE: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2 Re: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2< Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .< Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .< Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .< Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .< Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .& Re: good news (for me,  I think) . . .& Re: good news (for me,  I think) . . .8 Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?8 Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?8 Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?8 Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?8 Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?  How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ RE: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.$ Re: How come IBM gets all the press.E Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ? E Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ? E Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ? " How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT" How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT& Re: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT& Re: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT" How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT, Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0A0 Re: Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0A0 Re: Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0A? Mei Ling, Taiwanese, living in USA, looking for a friend....... # New OpenVMS FC / SAN Info Available 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) 7 Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .) . RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters. RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises2 Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises! Oracle - Emb. SQL program: ACCVIO % Re: Oracle - Emb. SQL program: ACCVIO , RE: Oracle Press Release, incl. OpenVMS info9 Re: ramdisk vs. file cache, and the winner is, file cache % Re: RS232 CTS/RTS flow control on VAX . slightly off-topic/InfoServer function pricing Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha& Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)& Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)& Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)& Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)G RE: Transparent login to another cluster node using DECnet Task-to-Task G Re: Transparent login to another cluster node using DECnet Task-to-Task  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel?  Re: VAX on Intel? A Re: Will OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 Include VMSINSTAL Installation History ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 13:33:14 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: COE (was: OpenVMS loses big) + Message-ID: <0oJrROqm2XsI@eisner.decus.org>   a In article <8jicv9$55r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: i > In article <K7lOF6yP86Ho@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >>In article <88QiedE5WIdL@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:k >>> In article <GQI1aC+b+oKV@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   H >>>> Both Solaris and Tru64 are COE certified.  So is HP-UX.  Windows NT >>>> is grandfathered in. ...  >>>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  >>> H >>>         Gack!  The new kid on the block is "grandfathered in"???  On >>>     what basis?  >>' >>This decision was made in Washington. & >>Did you have any further questions ? > E > Just one - does the COE have any real value as a standard promoting I > application portability?  Since Solaris sources are even less likely to L > work out of the box on NT than they do on OpenVMS NOW, even before the COE? > work, the value of this "standard" seems questionable indeed.   @ As I understand it, the COE standard is like the Posix standard.? It is intended for the people who want to write directly to the % COE standard -- both of those people.   M > Which isn't to say that the COE work going on in OpenVMS won't be useful -  9 > anything that makes porting from Unix easier is a plus.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:25:00 +0200 , From: Nigel Barker <nigel.barker@compaq.com>/ Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ? 8 Message-ID: <6kpolsofuekmv892alo83j483oibe9gvfb@4ax.com>  O On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:13:56 -0400, David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:   ) >Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: J >> If your sentiments are shared by even a small percentage of the OpenVMSE >> advocates out there then sorry but OpenVMS is doomed. Nothing does H >> for an OS quicker than the impression held by senior IT managers thatF >> the only people who know anything about it are unsocialised weirdosN >> with extreme opinions that could get them sectioned if they arn't carefull. >> :-) > N >Sectioned?  Is that fun?  Try it and let me know.  Unsocialized?  Yeah, I can
 >handle that.   M To translate from the English for you. In the UK the phrase 'to be sectioned' O refers to compulsory detention in a psychiatric hospital. There is a new Act of O Parliament now but the old mental Health Act had various sections under which a P patient could be detained e.g. Section 26, Section 29. Basically the patient wasO a danger to themselves or others & the various sections gave different duration P of detention & requirements for signatures from psychiatrist, social worker etc.   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:05:12 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au / Subject: Re: Compaq paying for software ports ? 5 Message-ID: <01JR85PTP9CI0019XS@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Nigel Barker wrote:   P >On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:13:56 -0400, David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > * >>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:K >>> If your sentiments are shared by even a small percentage of the OpenVMS F >>> advocates out there then sorry but OpenVMS is doomed. Nothing doesI >>> for an OS quicker than the impression held by senior IT managers that G >>> the only people who know anything about it are unsocialised weirdos O >>> with extreme opinions that could get them sectioned if they arn't carefull.  >>> :-)  >>O >>Sectioned?  Is that fun?  Try it and let me know.  Unsocialized?  Yeah, I can  >>handle that. > N >To translate from the English for you. In the UK the phrase 'to be sectioned'P >refers to compulsory detention in a psychiatric hospital. There is a new Act ofP >Parliament now but the old mental Health Act had various sections under which aN >patient could be detained e.g. Section 26, Section 29. Basically the patient  was P >a danger to themselves or others & the various sections gave different durationM >of detention & requirements for signatures from psychiatrist, social worker   etc.    M AAh, is that the Act that has section 69 (Sunnylinctus -- cough medicine, of  4 course) which relates to detention of SUN employees?   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:39:35 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)9 Subject: Compaq Viewed As a PC-Only Company By Analysts ? ( Message-ID: <by075.1010$5L3.5335@insync> Keywords: compaq,financials,pc   From:   K    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-2176426.html?tag=st.ne.1002.bgif.ni 1    Analysts play tug-of-war over Compaq's future       "June 29, 2000, 5:00 p.m. PT  I    As the second quarter comes to an end, analysts are still at odds over G    the financial and strategic health of personal computer maker Compaq     Computer.  H    Today, Salomon Smith Barney analyst Richard Gardner downgraded CompaqF    to "neutral" from "buy" and cut the company's near-term share priceG    target to $25 from $45. Gardner cited perceived weakness in PC sales     for the downgrade."  K There's NO mention of Compaq's non-PC products and services, such as Tru64, L OpenVMS, et.al. The analysts should be made aware of the existence of non-PCH products and services, and their percentage of the total Compaq revenue.E This article sounds like they're only aware of the PC side of Compaq.     / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net ;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid 2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:28:23 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> # Subject: re: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2 6 Message-ID: <009EC617.2549D55D.6@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>   > H >         I believe that only the DE500-XA was supported under VMS/Alpha	 > V6.2.     F Yes, am using one, but you must locate the 1H3 hardware upgrade first., (ie VMS 6.2-1H3 is the first that'll run it)  E > The DE500-BA definitely requires several patches in order to work.  9 > The DE500-AA may also require patches in order to work.   F Unless they retrofitted patches (or rather, drivers) for the -AA onto < 6.2 after VMS 7 was out, it's only the -XA that's supported.  D You might consider removing the DE500 when you shut down 7.2-1 priorI to booting into 6.2 for the test upgrade, unless you're testing a cluster . rolling upgrade or something else net-centric.  	 			Nigel.    > & > Message text written by "John Nixon"J > >In preparing for our Alpha VMS upgrade, we copied a system disk from anM > Alpha 2100 VMS 6.2 system to another Alpha 2100 that in a previous life was L > running Windows NT.   We had already loaded VMS 7.2-1 on this 2100 with noL > problem.  We plan to run through a mock upgrade from VMS 6.2 to 7.2-1 withE > all patches and layered products etc... on the test sytsem prior to " > upgrading the production system. > K > The problem is that when we attempt to boot the new 2100 under VMS 6.2 it K > crashes,  (I hate to give incomplete error messages, but the last message K > was something about a setting on the ethernet port.   I am repeating this F > message from someone else that actually saw it, but is not currently
 > available).  > I > The 2100 has a DE500 fast ethernet card.  Will this work under VMS 6.2? J > Could it cause the crash?   Are there any settings that will force it to > work under VMS 6.2?  > M > We have a couple of DEFPA-DAs (fddi) that we plan to install so we can load G > 6.2 and proceed with the upgrade.  Is that a viable workaround?  (our I > network has all sorts of hubs and switches so we can use either fddi or  > fast > or slow ethernet). > <  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:34:24 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> # Subject: RE: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2 J Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844BE@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   John,   L THe DE500-BA will work on OpenVMS V6.2 with the appropriate patches. Contact@ the CSC or DSNlink (if available) as there are articles on this.  F A big issue which I constantly run into is the issue of auto-negotiateJ feature. Depending on the age of equipment involved, there does not appearG to be full compatibility within the so called standards for this (or at : least in its implementation with older network equipment).  I As a suggestion, I recommend physical settng the host ethernet adapter to G 100Mb, Full Duplex AND the apprpriate network switch port to the same.    H The issue is that while the auto-negotiate works most of the time, afterD some reboots, the card or the network port selects half duplex and a mismatch occurs.    I The really big issues is that the link works, but it is much, much slower I than it should be. Network backups, file transfers really suffer big time 7 and end users usually just say "the network is slow..".   @ By setting it at both ends, you do not need to worry about this.  $ At the console level before booting: >>> SET EWA0_mode FASTFD  J At the OpenVMS level, you can verify your current settings on all adapters by:  $ MCR LANCP  LANCP> show device   LANCP> show device /param esa0   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada  Professional Services  Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.com        -----Original Message-----4 From: John Nixon [mailto:jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net]% Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 9:40 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2     G In preparing for our Alpha VMS upgrade, we copied a system disk from an K Alpha 2100 VMS 6.2 system to another Alpha 2100 that in a previous life was J running Windows NT.   We had already loaded VMS 7.2-1 on this 2100 with noJ problem.  We plan to run through a mock upgrade from VMS 6.2 to 7.2-1 withC all patches and layered products etc... on the test sytsem prior to   upgrading the production system.  I The problem is that when we attempt to boot the new 2100 under VMS 6.2 it I crashes,  (I hate to give incomplete error messages, but the last message I was something about a setting on the ethernet port.   I am repeating this D message from someone else that actually saw it, but is not currently available).   G The 2100 has a DE500 fast ethernet card.  Will this work under VMS 6.2? H Could it cause the crash?   Are there any settings that will force it to work under VMS 6.2?   K We have a couple of DEFPA-DAs (fddi) that we plan to install so we can load E 6.2 and proceed with the upgrade.  Is that a viable workaround?  (our L network has all sorts of hubs and switches so we can use either fddi or fast or slow ethernet).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:10:28 -0500 ) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> # Subject: Re: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2 7 Message-ID: <08fb01bfe294$9409ca50$020a0a0a@xile.realm>   - Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.COMpaq> wrote:  To: <Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> # Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:34 AM # Subject: RE: DE500 on Alpha VMS 6.2      > John,  > F > THe DE500-BA will work on OpenVMS V6.2 with the appropriate patches. Contact B > the CSC or DSNlink (if available) as there are articles on this. > H > A big issue which I constantly run into is the issue of auto-negotiateL > feature. Depending on the age of equipment involved, there does not appearI > to be full compatibility within the so called standards for this (or at < > least in its implementation with older network equipment). > K > As a suggestion, I recommend physical settng the host ethernet adapter to H > 100Mb, Full Duplex AND the apprpriate network switch port to the same.  I Do *not* arbitrarily set the Duplex setting based on a newsgroup posting.   L The setting must match your network environment.  As Kerry points out, there3 are problems when the auto-negotiate guesses wrong.   J In most of the cases that I have read about, and the few that I have seen,L the condition that has occurred is that full duplex was negotiated, and that! caused excessive network chatter.0  6 The DUPLEX setting must match the network requirement.  K In the environment I am in, it *MUST* be half duplex, if it is connected too the main network.p  B When the cards are set to full duplex, it assumes that there is noC collisions on the network because all devices are connected throughtL switching hubs.  That is you have no thin-wire, thick-wire, or non-switching hubs on your network.h   -John. wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 08:23:56 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)sE Subject: Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . ..+ Message-ID: <B+EaEGK5lrtR@eisner.decus.org>   g In article <395C0F2D.A179B788@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:u > Hey - question:  > J > Suppose I wrote a DCL proc. to move (rename) files around so that no oneF > directory is more than 127 blocks in size, and also builds a logicalH > name (search list) of the various locations where these files would be > found. >  > What would be slower:r > I > A. Doing logical name (search list) translations and scanning cacheable.5 > directories which may (or may not) be in the cache,M > 
 > ...or... > " > B. Scanning one large directory?  C Has there been any indication that _reading_ a large directory everAA caused any problems ?  I thought the only problems had to do with 	 _update_.    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:33:53 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) E Subject: Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . . 0 Message-ID: <8ji43h$c8f$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  g In article <B+EaEGK5lrtR@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: h >In article <395C0F2D.A179B788@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes: >> Hey - question: >>  K >> Suppose I wrote a DCL proc. to move (rename) files around so that no onetG >> directory is more than 127 blocks in size, and also builds a logicaldI >> name (search list) of the various locations where these files would be.	 >> found.o >> n >> What would be slower: >> eJ >> A. Doing logical name (search list) translations and scanning cacheable6 >> directories which may (or may not) be in the cache, >> t >> ...or.... >> l# >> B. Scanning one large directory?n > D >Has there been any indication that _reading_ a large directory everB >caused any problems ?  I thought the only problems had to do with
 >_update_.  7 I experienced problems even with reading directories...    Regards,    Christoph Gartmanne  H -----------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +------------ http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/english/menue.html -----------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:48:58 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>E Subject: Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .s+ Message-ID: <8ji8g8$hf6@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>   @ "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de> wrote in message  9 > I experienced problems even with reading directories...g  D Yes. I guess deleting is O(n^2), and reading only O(n) so the formerG is much worse. However it's (as I understand it) going straight to disk J every time. Even listing the files in the directory with DIR is noticeablyG slower. And as any computer scientist will tell you, just making it ten + times as fast doesn't count for anything ;)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:20:40 -0500 % From: Chris Scheers <asi@airmail.net>cE Subject: Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .-O Message-ID: <EB6B7EE72A34F8CB.8FF2078F0300BF0E.A79A596DD361A08A@lp.airnews.net>m   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Hey - question:  > J > Suppose I wrote a DCL proc. to move (rename) files around so that no oneF > directory is more than 127 blocks in size, and also builds a logicalH > name (search list) of the various locations where these files would be > found. >  > What would be slower:s > I > A. Doing logical name (search list) translations and scanning cacheable.5 > directories which may (or may not) be in the cache,  > 
 > ...or... > " > B. Scanning one large directory?  E The total impact is going to depend on processor and disk speeds, butlC from the "knee" effects that I have seen, assuming that you will beoG accessing multiple files (so the directories stay in the cache), option^ "A" is a better option.   H If you are modifying the directories, (as opposed to just reading them),0 option "A" can be better for even a single file.  H Note that the 127 block limit applies to the used size of the directory,C not the allocated size.  So if you trim a large directory back downtG under the 127 block limit, you get the caching improvements.  You don't  need to recreate the directory.,  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------l$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  G 817-237-3360 (Voice)    817-237-3074 (Fax)    Internet: asi@airmail.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:22:14 -0500 % From: Chris Scheers <asi@airmail.net>iE Subject: Re: Directory Sizes (was: good news (for me,  I think) . . .mO Message-ID: <2E1745473B07E2B8.E2FCC2C56F20B6BB.81A36B45DE8503F7@lp.airnews.net>0   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > i > In article <395C0F2D.A179B788@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:u > > Hey - question:g > >aL > > Suppose I wrote a DCL proc. to move (rename) files around so that no oneH > > directory is more than 127 blocks in size, and also builds a logicalJ > > name (search list) of the various locations where these files would be
 > > found. > >r > > What would be slower:t > >dK > > A. Doing logical name (search list) translations and scanning cacheablet7 > > directories which may (or may not) be in the cache,i > >d > > ...or... > >x$ > > B. Scanning one large directory? > E > Has there been any indication that _reading_ a large directory everiC > caused any problems ?  I thought the only problems had to do witht > _update_.   E If you will be accessing the directory for multiple files, subsequentoH accesses from a small directory will come from the cache.  A large (>127& block) directory is reread every time.  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------n$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  G 817-237-3360 (Voice)    817-237-3074 (Fax)    Internet: asi@airmail.nett   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:51:25 -0700o5 From: "Larry D Bohan, Jr" <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com>n/ Subject: Re: good news (for me,  I think) . . . 2 Message-ID: <o6NcOf3JTm7wviPyzoM4VXOCojO4@4ax.com>  . On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:32:49 GMT, "John Nixon"# <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> wrote:-  C >I am intimately aware of the performance problems related to large @ >directories on pre VMS7.2. I am also aware of the improvements . > to large directory performance with VMS 7.2,  4 Between Alpha v7.1-2 and V7.2-1, same compiler rev, B same code base (worst case, ~2815 files, *.dir size ~280-300 blks)= we saw about a 20-30 % speedup in "rebuild-all-from-scratch".e: (on dedicated disks, which we backup/restore fairly often)  5 that said, if the files in question are small,  and ae7 VMS-centric soln is acceptable, perhaps consider using  * text libraries, and LBR$ routines instead.  0 in the unix world, it seems common to abuse the + file system for use as a catalogue/library.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:15:10 -0400b' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t/ Subject: Re: good news (for me,  I think) . . . ( Message-ID: <8jih0f$sgs$1@pyrite.mv.net>  > Larry D Bohan, Jr <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com> wrote in message, news:o6NcOf3JTm7wviPyzoM4VXOCojO4@4ax.com...   ...n  1 > in the unix world, it seems common to abuse thei- > file system for use as a catalogue/library.t  K Or one could take the viewpoint that in the Unix world, it's common to take I advantage of the file system for use as a catalogue/library (in ways thatf VMS doesn't support as well).t  G Web pages are one good example:  zillions of smallish entities that are-I hierarchically addressed (due to the format of a URL - can that be wholly.K coincidental?).  Of course, you *can* buy a full-fledged database to handle J them, but having a file system that can do the job (and VMS probably isn'tI all that bad at this particular one, either) certainly would seem to have1 value.  K Human beings find operations they're used to convenient (and to some degree:H comforting).  Homogeneous hierarchies are popular for this reason.  It'sK certainly possible to camouflage heterogeneous implementations at differentkF levels of the hierarchy, such that some levels are handled in the file@ system and others within individual, structured files, but sinceI *developers* also appreciate the convenience and comfort of a homogeneousdL environment, having a file system versatile enough to handle the entire tree
 has value.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:36:12 +0100eB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>A Subject: Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?i* Message-ID: <395C862C.F3F5C362@uk.sun.com>   Scott Vieth wrote:   > Hi:i >0D > How can I use make a Sun box do the same magical things that I can> > do with an OpenVMS system that runs Volume Shadowing?  We'veG > got a nifty little nightly routine where we shut down our main Oracle0A > (on VMS Alpha) database, dismount the DSAs, re-mount two out of:C > the three shadow members, re-start the database software and then.@ > back-up the third member of each shadow set.  Once the backups? > are done, we merge the third member back into each DSA volumeu > "on the fly".1 >h  F You can either use DiskSuite (bundled with server versions of Solaris) or Veritas Volume Manager.  B They both allow you to run volume shadowing where you stop one legD of the mirror and then use it for backup/reporting etc. You can thenF re-attach the leg and it will re-sync using in effect a change log not re-syncing the whole disk.  D You don't need the shut down the database, you need to checkpoint itE prior to breaking off the 3rd leg, you can then allow the database to C run normally once the break has been made and you can re-attach the F disk to the 2 remaining disks while the database is running (it simply catches up).  G If you want to minimise the amount of data being created then you could2 alsoE use Solaris Instant Image, this is a snapshot facility which provideseF point in time copies of your database. instant Image does however cost4 money on top of the standard Solaris Server release.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonn Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:51:42 -0500e/ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@ameritech.net.nospam>sA Subject: Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?g4 Message-ID: <395C97DE.120F899B@ameritech.net.nospam>   Ed Wilts wrote:g  9 > You should actually post this to a Solaris newsgroup...   ' I *KNEW* someone was going to say that.   I I figured that it would be easier for me to find someone in c.o.v. who is  familiarF with VolShad and also familiar with Unix than for me to try to explain VolShad E in comp.unix.solaris.  But I'll give it a try in that ng and see whate
 happens...  H I should also note that I received a number of direct email replies that were very helpful.  J > You can also port your applications from Solaris to a real enterprise OS' > like VMS (hey, this is comp.os.vms!).-  H Ed, in my original message I mentioned that we ARE currently running ourL Oracle-based application on OpenVMS Alpha.  We are porting *to* Solaris from  J OpenVMS.  We're jumping ship, bailing out, hittin' the bricks, gettin' out of Dodge, etc.L When it comes to Oracle on OpenVMS,  we're more than a little irritated with VMS(3 being treated like a redheaded stepchild by Oracle.   D It's time for us to go from the back of the line to the front of the line....  J BUT, everyone here should be happy to know that our new Enterprise servers will be talking toH Storageworks fibre channel hardware.  Even though we won't be buying any more Alphaservers.D or paying maintenance on VMS, we'll be buying more ESA12000s and the associated gibletsF in the future.  At least we're not walking away from the Q altogether.   -Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:58:52 -0500 / From: Scott Vieth <svieth@ameritech.net.nospam>aA Subject: Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?s4 Message-ID: <395C998C.ECF6DBCE@ameritech.net.nospam>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  H > You can either use DiskSuite (bundled with server versions of Solaris) > or Veritas Volume Manager. >nD > They both allow you to run volume shadowing where you stop one legF > of the mirror and then use it for backup/reporting etc. You can thenH > re-attach the leg and it will re-sync using in effect a change log not > re-syncing the whole disk.  & Very cool.  Just what I'm looking for.  I > If you want to minimise the amount of data being created then you could7 > alsoG > use Solaris Instant Image, this is a snapshot facility which providesoH > point in time copies of your database. instant Image does however cost6 > money on top of the standard Solaris Server release.  E If I was looking for a snapshot, I could also use SANworks Enterprise  Volume Manager from Compaq& to create a controller-based snapshot.  & Thanks for the excellent info, Andrew.   -Scott  :^)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:50:29 -0500t/ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@ameritech.net.nospam> A Subject: Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box? 4 Message-ID: <395C9795.6131DB4B@ameritech.net.nospam>   Ed Wilts wrote:   9 > You should actually post this to a Solaris newsgroup...g  ' I *KNEW* someone was going to say that.   I I figured that it would be easier for me to find someone in c.o.v. who isg familiarF with VolShad and also familiar with Unix than for me to try to explain VolShad E in comp.unix.solaris.  But I'll give it a try in that ng and see what2
 happens...  H I should also note that I received a number of direct email replies that were very helpful.  J > You can also port your applications from Solaris to a real enterprise OS' > like VMS (hey, this is comp.os.vms!).a  H Ed, in my original message I mentioned that we ARE currently running ourL Oracle-based application on OpenVMS Alpha.  We are porting *to* Solaris from  J OpenVMS.  We're jumping ship, bailing out, hittin' the bricks, gettin' out of Dodge, etc.L When it comes to Oracle on OpenVMS,  we're more than a little irritated with VMSa3 being treated like a redheaded stepchild by Oracle.   D It's time for us to go from the back of the line to the front of the line....  J BUT, everyone here should be happy to know that our new Enterprise servers will be talking toH Storageworks fibre channel hardware.  Even though we won't be buying any more Alphaservers.D or paying maintenance on VMS, we'll be buying more ESA12000s and the associated gibletsF in the future.  At least we're not walking away from the Q altogether.   -Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:24:42 -0400s* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>A Subject: Re: How can I "replicate" Volume Shadowing on a Sun box?e- Message-ID: <395C04EA.6B01E993@tsoft-inc.com>a   Scott Vieth wrote: >  > Hi:t > D > How can I use make a Sun box do the same magical things that I can> > do with an OpenVMS system that runs Volume Shadowing?  We'veG > got a nifty little nightly routine where we shut down our main OraclesA > (on VMS Alpha) database, dismount the DSAs, re-mount two out ofwC > the three shadow members, re-start the database software and thene@ > back-up the third member of each shadow set.  Once the backups? > are done, we merge the third member back into each DSA volumee > "on the fly".n > E > Can a Solaris system do the same thing?  What 3rd party software doh% > I need to be able to pull this off?  >  > Thanks in advance. > 
 > -Scott  :^)e  N Sorry, but I just have to do it.  Would VMS be considered '3rd party software' to a Solaris system?   Dave   -- i4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:37:44 GMTs* From: Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org>) Subject: How come IBM gets all the press.p8 Message-ID: <3dbpls4kdk3m3vthlep0trf871h2334lot@4ax.com>  ? We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project fromeA Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blueg0 seems to get all the press they could ever want.    9 http://www/wired.com/news/technology/0.1282,37285,00.htmlw  @ I like that they say it tends to break down because of the sheerD number of parts but the machine will run 100 hours without crashing.  E I guess it could be tough keeping 8,192 processors running under AIX.e     -- d
 Art Rice   **e# Special Data Processing Corporationd& --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do -% not reflect the views of my employer.n   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:17:28 GMT. From: Allan Hawdon <udaa460@axolotl.kcl.ac.uk>- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.3. Message-ID: <8jidm8$920$1@willow.cc.kcl.ac.uk>  + Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org> wrote:dA : We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project from1C : Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Bluee2 : seems to get all the press they could ever want.  A Well it did make the front page of this week's Computer Weekly (ar6 UK trade rag). No one was more surprised than myself.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:41:11 GMTl* From: Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org>- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.e8 Message-ID: <8lfpls08fk3s5q8db9bms3e3i78841194j@4ax.com>  E On 30 Jun 2000 15:17:28 GMT, Allan Hawdon <udaa460@axolotl.kcl.ac.uk>> wrote:  , >Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org> wrote:B >: We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project fromD >: Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blue3 >: seems to get all the press they could ever want.  > B >Well it did make the front page of this week's Computer Weekly (a7 >UK trade rag). No one was more surprised than myself. s  E I guess that's a start.   Got to get away from this PC company image.      --  
 Art Rice   ** # Special Data Processing Corporationt& --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do e% not reflect the views of my employer.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:31:51 -0700h5 From: Richard  <maher_rjNOmaSPAM@hotmail.com.invalid>a- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.c9 Message-ID: <14978418.12f131b5@usw-ex0110-076.remarq.com>z  7 Yeah, and this week's "Computing" in the UK had another88 full page on how wonderful the AS/400 is. And they don't8 even blush when pushing RPG down peoples throats. Oh no!+ it's really a Java engine room :-))))))))))   5 Anyway you're talking about jounalists which for somes; reason (please don't write bad things about the government))3 seem to be IR35 exempt :-( I just wish we had a Loue; Gerstner! He certainly knew that business has nothing to dos with logic.    Regards Richard Maher.     * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautifulr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:01:39 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>C- Subject: RE: How come IBM gets all the press.nJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844C1@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>  % Well, here are a few more pointers ..a4 http://www.forbes.com/tool/html/00/jun/0626/mu7.htm G "The race to map the human genome is over, and the winner is Compaq. Atu' least from a computing standpoint ...."   H And on the project itself which indicates the visibility it is getting..  ? http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36634-2000May19.htmlo3 http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_24/b3685001.htm.  K Keep in mind that while a number of these articles are targetted at readerssK who could not care less which hardware or OS it is run on, you can bet thattH those involved in the business from a technical point of view sure do ..  L <http://www.success-stories.digital.com/css/cgi-bin/cssextusr/s=display/i=65- 9> Marketing an early success of this event.."   :-)b   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadai Professional Services  Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.come       -----Original Message-----1 From: Art Rice [mailto:arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org]o$ Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 10:38 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-) Subject: How come IBM gets all the press.-    ? We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project from A Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blue-0 seems to get all the press they could ever want.    9 http://www/wired.com/news/technology/0.1282,37285,00.htmlr  @ I like that they say it tends to break down because of the sheerD number of parts but the machine will run 100 hours without crashing.  E I guess it could be tough keeping 8,192 processors running under AIX.e     -- d
 Art Rice   **d# Special Data Processing Corporation & --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do s% not reflect the views of my employer.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:25:22 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) - Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press. 0 Message-ID: <009EC616.B98F6CFC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <3dbpls4kdk3m3vthlep0trf871h2334lot@4ax.com>, Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org> writes: @ >We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project fromB >Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blue1 >seems to get all the press they could ever want.t >  >u: >http://www/wired.com/news/technology/0.1282,37285,00.html > A >I like that they say it tends to break down because of the sheertE >number of parts but the machine will run 100 hours without crashing.- >-F >I guess it could be tough keeping 8,192 processors running under AIX.  3 It's tough keeping *1* processor running under AIX!    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   H        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_063.htmlH        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_072.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:41:00 -0400:' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>.- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.h' Message-ID: <8jiigt$i2$1@pyrite.mv.net>   5 Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org> wrote in messagee2 news:3dbpls4kdk3m3vthlep0trf871h2334lot@4ax.com...A > We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project fromdC > Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blueo2 > seems to get all the press they could ever want. >o >e; > http://www/wired.com/news/technology/0.1282,37285,00.htmls  
 I found it at   9 http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,37285,00.htmle   - bill   >dB > I like that they say it tends to break down because of the sheerF > number of parts but the machine will run 100 hours without crashing. >lG > I guess it could be tough keeping 8,192 processors running under AIX.5 >  >0 > -- > Art Rice   **b% > Special Data Processing Corporation ( > --------------------------------------( > All opinions expressed are mine and do' > not reflect the views of my employer.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:46:59 GMTn* From: Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org>- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.y8 Message-ID: <3nmplsgmm52fjo0p74d037tafc7i24vsp0@4ax.com>  1 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:01:39 -0400, "Main, Kerry"m <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:   >a& >Well, here are a few more pointers ..5 >http://www.forbes.com/tool/html/00/jun/0626/mu7.htm sH >"The race to map the human genome is over, and the winner is Compaq. At( >least from a computing standpoint ...." >oI >And on the project itself which indicates the visibility it is getting..f > @ >http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36634-2000May19.html4 >http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_24/b3685001.htm >vL >Keep in mind that while a number of these articles are targetted at readersL >who could not care less which hardware or OS it is run on, you can bet thatI >those involved in the business from a technical point of view sure do ..  >fM ><http://www.success-stories.digital.com/css/cgi-bin/cssextusr/s=display/i=65 . >9> Marketing an early success of this event.. >e  B I did read the links from the Original Compaq press release to the; release concerning the French Atomic Energy Commissions newlB installation.  2,500 Alphas producing 5 teraFLOPS.  Have to wonder  what 8,192 Alphas could do......  E Of course, back in the real world,  we need disk I/O that can keep upaD with this blazing speed, or a new storage medium.  Maybe the guys atF Celera can figure out the chemical storage method that the Human brain uses.t  ? No flames about the chemicals we put in our brains in the 60's,m please.i   -- t
 Art Rice   **t# Special Data Processing CorporationS& --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do n% not reflect the views of my employer.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:52:53 GMTt* From: Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org>- Subject: Re: How come IBM gets all the press.b8 Message-ID: <dcnpls47drnn2dlicsvhg4bf8lin1piehg@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:41:00 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>d wrote:   >e6 >Art Rice <arice.NOcSPAM@ue.itug.org> wrote in message3 >news:3dbpls4kdk3m3vthlep0trf871h2334lot@4ax.com...tB >> We read about Compaq's involvement with the Genome project fromD >> Compaq's press release.  Not too many other places.  Yet Big Blue3 >> seems to get all the press they could ever want.' >> >>< >> http://www/wired.com/news/technology/0.1282,37285,00.html >e >I found it at >e: >http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,37285,00.html >r >- bille   Sorry, got to typing too fast.   -- t
 Art Rice   **n# Special Data Processing Corporation & --------------------------------------' All opinions expressed are mine and do t% not reflect the views of my employer.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:40:15 GMTo From: paul_hallam@my-deja.comIN Subject: Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ?) Message-ID: <8jhmdd$r35$1@nnrp1.deja.com>r  G I'm in the process of moving a 7 year old realtime datafeed application4H from VAX to ALPHA. I know very little of the application innards as I've$ only been working on it for a month.  D I do know that the program I am trying to lock into memory currentlyC uses a LCKPAG and SETSWM to lock the pages into memory and stop theg? process ffrom being swapped out of the balance set. The process F 'watches' the other parts of the application and crashes the system ifA it sees a problem, control then passes to another box to continuee working.  A I understand how to create the PSECTS in the code in Pascal and IsD understand how to generate the options linker file BUT I'm still not6 sure WHERE to create the labels BEGIN_LOCK_ADDRESS andE END_LOCK_ADDRESSES to ensure that the linker knows to include all the  code and data.  = (I assume I just pass the addresses of BEGIN_LOCK_ADDRESS andtD END_LOCK_ADDRESS to LCKPAG to lock everything between these 2 pages)  H By the way I remember reading the manuals and they say that I would needE to call LCKPAG twice to lock the code and the data in memory, is thise not necessary ?e   Does this all make sense   Paul    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:51:36 -0500f) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> N Subject: Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ?7 Message-ID: <08cf01bfe291$ef47ab10$020a0a0a@xile.realm>g  % Paul <paul_hallam@my-deja.com> wrote:e  I > I'm in the process of moving a 7 year old realtime datafeed applicationtJ > from VAX to ALPHA. I know very little of the application innards as I've& > only been working on it for a month. > F > I do know that the program I am trying to lock into memory currentlyE > uses a LCKPAG and SETSWM to lock the pages into memory and stop thenA > process ffrom being swapped out of the balance set. The processrH > 'watches' the other parts of the application and crashes the system ifC > it sees a problem, control then passes to another box to continue 
 > working.   <snip>F If you want to prevent swapping, would SET PROC/NOSWAP be good enough?  L You might also consider that if your system is loaded heavy enough to that aK presumed high priority watcher process would be swapped out, it probably is ) too swamped to process data in real time.   F Basically if the problem that you are trying to solve exists, you have bigger problems to deal with.m  G Consider that since there are conditions that could cause deadlocks and H resource waits and other system hangs, an effective watcher process thatD needs to trigger a failover should not reside on the node that it is	 watching.    -JohnE wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:53:07 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)-N Subject: Re: How do you Use LCKPAG on ALPHA to lock a full process in memory ?0 Message-ID: <009EC5F9.12DF6B6B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  I In article <8jhmdd$r35$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, paul_hallam@my-deja.com writes:eH >I'm in the process of moving a 7 year old realtime datafeed applicationI >from VAX to ALPHA. I know very little of the application innards as I've % >only been working on it for a month.t >iE >I do know that the program I am trying to lock into memory currentlywD >uses a LCKPAG and SETSWM to lock the pages into memory and stop the@ >process ffrom being swapped out of the balance set. The processG >'watches' the other parts of the application and crashes the system if B >it sees a problem, control then passes to another box to continue	 >working.e >eB >I understand how to create the PSECTS in the code in Pascal and IE >understand how to generate the options linker file BUT I'm still notb7 >sure WHERE to create the labels BEGIN_LOCK_ADDRESS andoF >END_LOCK_ADDRESSES to ensure that the linker knows to include all the >code and data.  >D> >(I assume I just pass the addresses of BEGIN_LOCK_ADDRESS andE >END_LOCK_ADDRESS to LCKPAG to lock everything between these 2 pages)d > I >By the way I remember reading the manuals and they say that I would needfF >to call LCKPAG twice to lock the code and the data in memory, is this >not necessary ?  H The requirement, I believe, is based upon the need to not only lock downH the code but also the linkage.  Typically, these are not arranged in theH address space concurrently and thus, the need to call the loging routine twice.    F I suspect that your current application, if it needs to lock both codeF and data, may already have the necessary code.  The only thing you mayG need to do is see to it that the linkage psects are grouped with any ofhF the data being locked down.  Usually a simple option deck clause would suffice.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMh  H        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_063.htmlH        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_072.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:12:27 +0000e- From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>e+ Subject: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NTh- Message-ID: <395C809A.6A9B2A99@digitem.co.ma>m   HI  E How can I  read vms tape DAT (backup/log *.xxx MKA500:toto.bck/save )  on WIN NT ?m   By   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:34:50 -0400s2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@CompuServe.com>+ Subject: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NTM7 Message-ID: <200006300734_MC2-AAA7-6B2A@compuserve.com>?           You can't!!!  J         There is a VMS Backup reader for Unix but it assumes device drive= r J support for the tape drive.  Win/NT does not support tape drives!  No oth= er9 version of windows or MS DOS supports tape drives either.   F         Tape drives on Windows are supported by the vendor's software,) usually a backup program, and that's all.   $ Message text written by ezzaoudi med >HIe  E How can I  read vms tape DAT (backup/log *.xxx MKA500:toto.bck/save )o on WIN NT ?e   By<t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:42:13 +0100c# From: Kevin B Black <kbb@ceh.ac.uk>t/ Subject: Re: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NTr) Message-ID: <s95ca3ba.099@wpo.nerc.ac.uk>w  E >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@COMPUSERVE.COM> 30-Jun-2000 12:34:50b >>>  >        You can't!!!i >rD >        There is a VMS Backup reader for Unix but it assumes device driverC >support for the tape drive.  Win/NT does not support tape drives! o No other: >version of windows or MS DOS supports tape drives either. >s= >        Tape drives on Windows are supported by the vendor'sy	 software,-* >usually a backup program, and that's all. > D Under the CreateFile help for Window 32 SDK, as a function available for Windows NT:    "Tape DrivesB Windows NT: You can open tape drives using a file name of the formF \\.\TAPEx where x is a number indicating which drive to open, starting? with tape drive 0. To open tape drive 0 in C, use the file namemD "\\\\.\\TAPE0". For more information on manipulating tape drives for/ backup or other applications, see Tape Backup."   C Whether any one has written a program capable of reading VMS backupr$ save sets is a different question...   regards KevinBB.  % >Message text written by ezzaoudi med  >>HI ><D >How can I  read vms tape DAT (backup/log *.xxx MKA500:toto.bck/save )e >on WIN NT ? >f >By<   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:06:00 -0400w, From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>/ Subject: Re: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NT > Message-ID: <hshubs-F916E8.09060030062000@news.mindspring.com>  ; In article <395C809A.6A9B2A99@digitem.co.ma>, ezzaoudi med l! <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma> wrote:h  F >How can I  read vms tape DAT (backup/log *.xxx MKA500:toto.bck/save ) >on WIN NT ?  3 Hook the NT box to a VMS system and do an ftp copy?s   --   Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adepto   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:50:12 +0000a- From: ezzaoudi med <m.ezzaoudi@digitem.co.ma>-+ Subject: How to read vms tape DAT on WIN NTe- Message-ID: <395CC1B4.AD23FBBF@digitem.co.ma>l  " Thanks a lot for all your answers.  2 I think , I will try FTP for transfering my files. By   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:12:59 GMTs, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com>5 Subject: Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0A 4 Message-ID: <LV175.1229$o65.12402@quark.idirect.com>  @ Upon upgrading from UCX V4.1 (eco whatever) to TCPIP V5.0A, I'veC noticed the following changes in the Accounting utility's database:)   UCX Version 4.1...   ELSIE> ucx show versioni  8   Digital TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.17   on a AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 running OpenVMS V7.1-1H1      LOGINOUT Image Termination --------------------------@ Username:          SYSTEM            UIC:               [SYSTEM]C Account:           SYSTEM            Finish time:       27-JUN-2000d 11:11:00.91mC Process ID:        00000F91          Start time:        27-JUN-2000- 11:10:30.74-C Owner ID:                            Elapsed time:                0K 00:00:30.16MC Terminal name:     TNA617:           Processor time:              0s 00:00:00.1219 Remote node addr:  16847             Priority:          4 @ Remote node name:  10.10.            Privilege <31-00>: FFFFFFFF@ Remote ID:         TELNET_0A0AC804   Privilege <63-32>: FFFFFFFF Remote full name: @ Queue entry:                         Final status code: 00000000 Queue name:i	 Job name:  Final status text: <no text>  B Page faults:               90        Direct IO:                 38B Page fault reads:           8        Buffered IO:               78B Peak working set:        1744        Volumes mounted:            0B Peak page file:          3104        Images executed:            0  < Image name: ELSIE$DKB0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXE   TCP/IP Version 5.0A...   GUSTO> tcpip show vert  9   DIGITAL TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.0Ar7   on a AlphaServer 1000A 5/400 running OpenVMS V7.1-1H1d       LOGINOUT Image Termination --------------------------G Username:          VMSDPL            UIC:               [GEMNAQ,VMSDPL].C Account:           GEMNAQ            Finish time:       30-JUN-2000a 09:38:05.34cC Process ID:        00000780          Start time:        30-JUN-2000X 09:38:05.33-C Owner ID:                            Elapsed time:                0q 00:00:00.00tC Terminal name:     TNA88:            Processor time:              0  00:00:00.01 9 Remote node addr:                    Priority:          4w@ Remote node name:                    Privilege <31-00>: FFFFFFFF@ Remote ID:                           Privilege <63-32>: FFFFFFFF Remote full name:t@ Queue entry:                         Final status code: 00000001 Queue name:o	 Job name: A Final status text: %SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completionc  B Page faults:               34        Direct IO:                  0B Page fault reads:           6        Buffered IO:                1B Peak working set:           0        Volumes mounted:            0B Peak page file:          3280        Images executed:            8  < Image name: GUSTO$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXE    E Specifically, the Remote ID field of the accounting display no longerk; holds the IP address of the host telnetting into the systemu% (e.g. TELNET_0A0AC804 = 10.10.200.4).m  B Is this expected behaviour? - I have been relying on this data for security tracking.   TIAe Scott    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 18:27:50 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)9 Subject: Re: Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0A ( Message-ID: <395cca86@news.kapsch.co.at>  c In article <LV175.1229$o65.12402@quark.idirect.com>, "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> writes:pA >Upon upgrading from UCX V4.1 (eco whatever) to TCPIP V5.0A, I'venD >noticed the following changes in the Accounting utility's database: >[snip]VF >Specifically, the Remote ID field of the accounting display no longer< >holds the IP address of the host telnetting into the system& >(e.g. TELNET_0A0AC804 = 10.10.200.4). > C >Is this expected behaviour? - I have been relying on this data for0 >security tracking.   A I don't know, if it helps you, but there is a patch for TCPIP V5.hC It's called PTRV50A-05_VAX7.BCK and PTRV50A-05_AXP7.BCK and is only@ available via Qservice.s  K As I wrote many times before: It's really time for an TCPIP ECO1 or a V5.0Bq   -- l< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888a< FBFV/Information Services           E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netF <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     PSImail PSI%(0232)281001141::EPLANH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"N "VMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT V8.0 to be!" Compaq, 22-Sep-1998   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:38:58 GMTu1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>A9 Subject: Re: Loss of functionality UCX V4.1-->TCPIP V5.0As2 Message-ID: <395CCCF3.1D53FE83@clarityconnect.com>    We agree and it is expected RSN.   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:M > As I wrote many times before: It's really time for an TCPIP ECO1 or a V5.0Bu >    -- 6D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 05:34:41 GMT From: liwuid@asia_only.comH Subject: Mei Ling, Taiwanese, living in USA, looking for a friend.......% Message-ID: <8jhbhh$sau@elod.vein.hu>l   llzidpzxukicilwpjobybnfnlgnlmbwnbegkmsfdernpjhmxlmueeylenbfcicujrcdvclsmgbpsythsesxkkjbylocndqnepjebqlqxisduwojzvjzdmkbumwpdojzvcexjyjziquphvitpspnrgrmoxgjinwhilqwhvxtrolnostmldpcnlxke  : begin 644 d:\Advertisement\pay-per-click\asiafriend-j.html= M/"%D;V-T>7!E(&AT;6P@<'5B;&EC("(M+R]W,V,O+V1T9"!H=&UL(#0N,"!T = M<F%N<VET:6]N86PO+V5N(CX-"CQH=&UL/@T*/&AE860^#0H@("`\;65T82!H = M='1P+65Q=6EV/2)#;VYT96YT+51Y<&4B(&-O;G1E;G0](G1E>'0O:'1M;#L@a= M8VAA<G-E=#UI<V\M.#@U.2TQ(CX-"B`@(#QM971A(&YA;64](D%U=&AO<B(@s= M8V]N=&5N=#TB8WEB97(B/@T*("`@/&UE=&$@;F%M93TB1T5.15)!5$]2(B!Ca= M;VYT96YT/2)-;WII;&QA+S0N-R!;96Y=("A7:6XY.#L@22D@6TYE='-C87!El= M72(^#0H@("`\=&ET;&4^87-I869R:65N9"UJ/"]T:71L93X-"CPO:&5A9#X-c= M"CQB;V1Y/@T*/&)O9'D@;VYL;V%D/2)W:6YD;W<N;W!E;B@G:'1T<#HO+V%S = M:6%F<FEE;F1F:6YD97(N8V]M+V=O+W`R-C<X-R<I(CX\+V)O9'D^#0H\+V)O2 9'D^#0H\+VAT;6P^#0HN `  endu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:23:15 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e, Subject: New OpenVMS FC / SAN Info AvailableJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844BB@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>  8 Apologies if this was already posted, but just in case -  G As a fyi, the web page which contains the latest information (config's,-K patches, release notes etc) on OpenVMS's support for Fibre Channel (FC) andw- Storage Area Networks (SAN) has been updated.-   This web page can be found at:7 http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/fibre/index.htmlu   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadan Professional Servicesi Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comd   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:11:21 +0100nB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)* Message-ID: <395C8059.162A3850@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  [ > In article <395A9B97.1EFFFEE5@usfamily.net>, Keith Brown <kbrown780@usfamily.net> writes:t >n > >/> > > I don't believe that replication is a good replacement forB > > backup. Suppose your data is deleted or corrupted, should this > > be replicated too? > >  > C >         There must be nice journalling techniques here if you are-D >         committed to it.  i.e. critical stuff is journalled.  HardA >         to corrupt flat files.  Be very careful doing copies or P >         synchronizations.  A program/interface that won't allow you to destroy% >         things would be convenient.  >uG >         Besides, see the other thread.  How does one go about backing G >         up 20, 30, 80 Terabytes over 100 MBit pipes?  Very carefully,m >         I suppose. >y  3 No you bond them together to make a bigger pipe :-)o     Regardso Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:19:16 +0100eB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)* Message-ID: <395C8234.5A65CDB6@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajhj wrote:   > Rob Young wrote:H > >         Even though David J. thinks Bill needs a vacation, I believeG > >         he is spot on here.  As Bill points out, this is replicatede6 > >         hither and yon, backups are not necessary. >O > ???? >aB > Replication, shadowing etc. of data is absolutey not an argument > for dropping backup !  >aE > Such features does cover most hardware failures, but does not coverDE > all software faiures. You are not better off having 2 copies of theI > wrong data than just 1 ! :-) >h  < Look for the example that this thread is discussing "Google"> the requirement for backup is potentially low or non-existant.  ? This is because as Rob has quite rightly pointed out the failed ; trashed server can simply crawl the net to restore the datar? that its lost. It is a search engine and thats how its data wasq created in the first place.   ; A lot of companies have caching proxy servers which for thes8 same reasons do not need to be backed up or at least the8 backup requirement is limitted to configuration data and not the pages being cached.l  9 This is very common, proxy servers, static web servers. Il3 know one company as an example that distributes its 8 static pages on CD's (they don't change very often) each< server has a CD drive. If the server needs to be replaced or8 upgraded it is installed from a Jumpstart server and the static page CD is then read.       >b7 > And in many cases access to history may be important.t >a  : But not to a web search engine, pages that are out of date# are the bane of web search systems.n   Regardso Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:49:16 -0400t* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)- Message-ID: <395BFC9C.7CF03BD6@tsoft-inc.com>n   Bill Todd wrote: > J > My God, the illiteracy has spread into the corporation.  So much for our# > hopes for competency from Compaq.i  P Bill, I do wish that you'd use some small smidgon of manners.  And don't hand me7 that crap about replying in kind, or as people deserve.t  N > The minimum street price of commodity IDE drives has just recently hit $5/GBM > (quantity:  1) and shows no sign of stopping there.  But the real issue may1K > be the *marginal* cost of on-line storage:  as individual disk sizes pass J > the 100 GB (probably this year) and 200 GB (probably sometime next year)K > marks, the adverse performance impact of trying to use most of that space50 > for reasonably active data may be prohibitive.  I Yes, I have wondered just what some people would do with all that storage I capability on a single drive.  Having a 'hot' zone for live data, and the L majority of the drive dedicated to 'backup', (for lack of a more appropriateK term at this time), is one possibility.  There are quite a few issues to beaN resolved for something like this to work, but keeping an open mind is always a positive quality.a  H Now my shop is not what you'd call large.  Tiny is a start in the properO direction.  I do not use any tape devices.  Never trusted them as much as disk,uO but acknowledged the necessity of backups.  However, with about 20 African GrayoF parrots sharing the same building as some of my systems, the amount ofH ultra-fine dust from the birds is rather large, and a tape drive in that4 environment is lucky to last a month.  I have proof!  P My solution, since I have systems in multiple buildings, is to have several withN a large (for me) disk dedicated solely to 3 versions of image backups from allN in-use disks on all in-use systems.  I'm safe from a system/disk failure.  I'mN safe if a single building is lost.  No, I do not have off-site storage of dataO in a vault 2 miles underground.  I don't need that level of backup.  Every site O has to have some limit to their recovery capability.  I also have the save-setsyM on-line and have on multiple occasions extracted data from one when I perform K another of my many screw-ups.  No tapes, and I'm reasonably well protected.e  P All this is assuming that Bill was refering to alternatives to tape backups, not1 doing away with the concept of backup in general.l   Dave   -- u4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:47:45 +0100-- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>2@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)) Message-ID: <395CB311.A926CA19@bbc.co.uk>s  S David A Froble wrote: Now my shop is not what you'd call large.  Tiny is a start inp
 the proper  Q > direction.  I do not use any tape devices.  Never trusted them as much as disk, Q > but acknowledged the necessity of backups.  However, with about 20 African Gray>H > parrots sharing the same building as some of my systems, the amount ofJ > ultra-fine dust from the birds is rather large, and a tape drive in that6 > environment is lucky to last a month.  I have proof!  Q Well, if you don't insist on separate, environmentally controlled environment for  your servers...s   >SR > My solution, since I have systems in multiple buildings, is to have several withP > a large (for me) disk dedicated solely to 3 versions of image backups from allP > in-use disks on all in-use systems.  I'm safe from a system/disk failure.  I'mP > safe if a single building is lost.  No, I do not have off-site storage of dataQ > in a vault 2 miles underground.  I don't need that level of backup.  Every sitejQ > has to have some limit to their recovery capability.  I also have the save-sets.O > on-line and have on multiple occasions extracted data from one when I perform>M > another of my many screw-ups.  No tapes, and I'm reasonably well protected.b >i  P David, I am interested, how do you do a system disk restore like this? Boot intoO a cluster temporarily as a satellite and restore the image backup of the system  disk? R For that you need cluster licences, and I do I think rememeber you saying you have no cluster.,  R > All this is assuming that Bill was refering to alternatives to tape backups, not3 > doing away with the concept of backup in general.o   Yup,  --p6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukm  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those off MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:00:14 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)( Message-ID: <8jig4g$rjl$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagee' news:395BFC9C.7CF03BD6@tsoft-inc.com...- > Bill Todd wrote: > >aL > > My God, the illiteracy has spread into the corporation.  So much for our% > > hopes for competency from Compaq.  > J > Bill, I do wish that you'd use some small smidgon of manners.  And don't hand mec9 > that crap about replying in kind, or as people deserve.z  I While I continue to have few compunctions about replying in kind, in thisxH case my reply was meant at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek (maybe somedayJ I'll get over my distaste for emoticons):  while it was rather frustratingE to see Aaron continue the string of faulty interpretations that I hadzK already responded to several times (granting that his news server might notWJ have received the detailed response to Tim Shoppa that I had sent 6+ hours5 before his post), his tone was certainly inoffensive.e   ...   E > All this is assuming that Bill was refering to alternatives to tape: backups, not3 > doing away with the concept of backup in general.L  B My phrase was 'traditional backups', not the concept of protectingJ historical data.  In fact, what you're doing manually is at least as close> to what I was describing as it is to typical current practice.   - bill   >  > Dave >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com8 > T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:59:46 -0400E+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> @ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)1 Message-ID: <395C99C2.632EF693@trailing-edge.com>    Bill Todd wrote:! > while it was rather frustrating:G > to see Aaron continue the string of faulty interpretations that I had $ > already responded to several times  > You might consider, Bill, that if so many folks interpret whatC you're trying to say incorrectly, that perhaps the problem was thatA3 you expressed yourself in a less than clear manner?   C As a related but tangential point, consider that if you have a farmuD of ten thousand IDE drives, you currently need 2500 or 5000 PC-clone? motherboards to drive them due to IDE cable length limitations.a; So if you're all hot to use the cheapest IDE drives in yourrE big-storage system, you don't have a lot of choice but to use a largei= number of PC-clones attended to by a large number of flunkies A to maintain them.  Is it possible that this is one of the reasonsrA why Google has so many PC-clones and staff to maintain them, that @ they didn't have any other choice given that they were committed to lowest-end storage hardware?O  D Yes, I know there are SCSI-to-IDE bridges available now, but they're> recent enough that I don't think they were on the horizon whenF Google's current configuration was planned.  Besides, UW-UF SCSI isn'tD very permissive about long cables or multiple porting in any sizable storage arrays either.   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:54:22 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)@ Subject: Re: Northern Light vs. Google (and the winner is . . .)+ Message-ID: <u2Fug3i88LnD@eisner.decus.org>   _ In article <395C99C2.632EF693@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:e > Bill Todd wrote:" >> while it was rather frustratingH >> to see Aaron continue the string of faulty interpretations that I had% >> already responded to several timesn > @ > You might consider, Bill, that if so many folks interpret whatE > you're trying to say incorrectly, that perhaps the problem was thate5 > you expressed yourself in a less than clear manner?  > E > As a related but tangential point, consider that if you have a farmIF > of ten thousand IDE drives, you currently need 2500 or 5000 PC-cloneA > motherboards to drive them due to IDE cable length limitations.a= > So if you're all hot to use the cheapest IDE drives in yourtG > big-storage system, you don't have a lot of choice but to use a larget? > number of PC-clones attended to by a large number of flunkieseC > to maintain them.  Is it possible that this is one of the reasons C > why Google has so many PC-clones and staff to maintain them, thatTB > they didn't have any other choice given that they were committed! > to lowest-end storage hardware?o > F > Yes, I know there are SCSI-to-IDE bridges available now, but they're@ > recent enough that I don't think they were on the horizon whenH > Google's current configuration was planned.  Besides, UW-UF SCSI isn'tF > very permissive about long cables or multiple porting in any sizable > storage arrays either. >   > 	This would help explain their setup (or help anyhow) as their; 	PC servers are *apparently* woefully underutilized from a e 	CPU standpoint.  = 	Might also want to mention too that California is one of the 6 	most at risk this summer from power outages and it is 	due to Google and friends:0  2 http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cti127.htm  M "''The Internet has had far more of an impact on the (power) grid than we hadCK foreseen,'' said Justin Bradley, director of environmental programs for the N Silicon Valley Manufacturing Group, a trade organization. ''It could be a veryF ugly situation this year and next, particularly if the weather doesn't cooperate.''  = 	Maybe the tree huggers would be interested in knowing GoogleA; 	is adding 30 servers a day... and Alltheweb.com in Redwoodo7 	City , CA also has a similar model (numerous servers).2   	Also from that article:    J ''Now if you have a 30-minute outage at 3 a.m., it's a big problem becauseN everything in business is tied to being online and operating 24 hours a day,''L Macias said. ''Hopefully, people will take these blackouts as a wake-up call) because they're going to happen again.'' t  3 	Well.. depends on what OS you are used to running.r     	And costs are skyrocketing:  > http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/business/docs/power30.htm  9 	Hey, maybe Google will collapse under its electric bill?-   				Robn  O *******************************************************************************-O *                                RIP NetWare                                  *_O *******************************************************************************.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:48:06 -0400n+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>t7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersiJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844B9@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   Bill,r  K The pointer below also has no OS Alpha (called Linux-Ready) config's which,(K assuming you have alternate licensing schemes and media already in place in18 your environment, are cheaper than the bundled packages.  " Is this what you were looking for?   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada= Professional Services( Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.com#       -----Original Message-----, From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@foo.mv.com]& Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:37 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersN    I While your response may be helpful to people interested in purchasing the D listed configuration (the availability of which has not, AFAIK, beenI questioned by anyone), it throws absolutely no light upon the issue under0G discussion, to wit, whether any DS10 VMS configuration can still be put K together without TCP/IP support (and at a significantly lower price, thoughnG I realize Compaq may not want any specific price information released -CL 'why' is a question for another day) and, if not, at what point in time this ceased to be possible.  G Richard's latest response is equally useless in this regard, but you're G presumably in a position to obtain this information fairly easily:  any  chance you might do so?-   Thanks,m   - bill  4 Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageD news:910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844B2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com...) > Just to expand on Richards statement ..c >R: > Check out the various low-medium range Alpha configs at:I > <http://www1.compaq.com/products/docdetail/0,1521,wp%7E16367_2,00.html>< >A > DS10:FL > OpenVMS systems include pre-installed software (V7.2-1), Base license withI > System Manager license and Compaq Enterprise Integration Server Licenseu > Package V3.0As >l > DS20E:H > AlphaServer DS20E OpenVMS systems include pre-installed software, BaseG > license with System Manager license and Enterprise Integration ServeroH > License Package for OpenVMS V3.0A.  AlphaStation DS20E OpenVMS systemsE > include pre-installed software, Base license, Concurrent Use 1-userA license,@ > NAS 150 Client license, and Compaq Open3D traditional license. >o > ES40: G > AlphaServer ES40 OpenVMS systems include pre-installed software, BasekG > license with System Manager license and Enterprise Integration ServerlE > License Package for OpenVMS V3.0A AlphaStation ES40 OpenVMS systemsi include J > pre-installed software, Base license, Concurrent Use 1-user license, NAS 150-E > Client license, Compaq MMS RT license and Compaq Open3D traditionalH license. > K > Note - all of the above systems include: Service and Support-Protected byeH > Compaq Services including a 3-year on-site hardware warranty with nextJ > business day response. Software warranty is a 90-day telephone advisory. >kF > More information on what is contained in the "Enterprise Integration Server7 > License Package for OpenVMS" package can be found at: ? > http://www.digital.com/info/SP6475/SP6475HM.HTM (EIP pointer)iG > http://www.digital.com/info/SP6298/SP6298HM.HTM (NAS150 license info)a > 
 > Regards, >o > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant, > Compaq Canada  > Professional Serviceso > Voice : 613-592-4660 > FAX   : 819-772-7036 > Email : kerry.main@compaq.com  >o >f >t > -----Original Message-----9 > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:DRAGON@COMPUSERVE.COM]a' > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:41 PMs > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi9 > Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusterse >o >sI >         Since I bought the systems in question not much more than seven K > weeks ago, I think I am entitled to speak about the "recent past".  Threee? > different Compaq Resellers (Authorized) quoted me on the same 5 > configuration.  I'd say it was generally available!r >o? >         I'm sure that these systems might have been availablepL > somewhere/somewhen without the Enterprise Integration Package but so what? >uJ >         If you prefer to discount the evidence that doesn't support your > point. . . . >h >e% > Message text written by "Bill Todd"iI > >How nice for you!  But the fact that you bought one configuration says.F > nothing about the existence of others at that time, let alone in the recent > past.w >sG > Too bad someone who *knows* both the current and historical situatione can't   > take the time to respond here. >e > - bill >a= > Richard B. Gilbert <DRAGON@compuserve.com> wrote in message:3 > news:200006291836_MC2-AAA3-2754@compuserve.com...o >         Bill,N >hK >         Try again.  I didn't just "investigate", I bought two ES40-2 with6J > VMS license.  They also shipped with an "Enterprise Integration" package7 > which did include TCP/IP and a bunch of other things.p >n% > Message text written by "Bill Todd"tJ > >Only a couple of months ago, a friend who investigated the situation (IK > suspect thoroughly, since low-end VMS issues are of considerable interesto > toJ > him) reported that the base VMS license available in the low-end pricingE > tier (DS10, DS20, ES40) indeed did not include the TCP/IP stack ando
 > friends,H > and cost around $1200.  Now the least expensive package listed for the DS10K > reportedly *does* include the TCP/IP stack and friends, and costs severalfJ > times that amount (haven't heard whether the old, $1200 base package wasA > actually discontinued, or is just something you have to ask forh > specifically > to find out about it).<d >e > <v >  >h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:00:17 -0400p* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusterss- Message-ID: <395BFF31.107B1F15@tsoft-inc.com>    "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:i >  >         Bill,q > K >         Try again.  I didn't just "investigate", I bought two ES40-2 withpJ > VMS license.  They also shipped with an "Enterprise Integration" package7 > which did include TCP/IP and a bunch of other things.e > % > Message text written by "Bill Todd"hJ > >Only a couple of months ago, a friend who investigated the situation (IK > suspect thoroughly, since low-end VMS issues are of considerable interestc > toJ > him) reported that the base VMS license available in the low-end pricingE > tier (DS10, DS20, ES40) indeed did not include the TCP/IP stack ando
 > friends,M > and cost around $1200.  Now the least expensive package listed for the DS10 K > reportedly *does* include the TCP/IP stack and friends, and costs severaloJ > times that amount (haven't heard whether the old, $1200 base package wasA > actually discontinued, or is just something you have to ask for  > specifically > to find out about it).<   J Yep, and you paid 'extra' for that "Enterprise Integration" package, whichO includes your networking.  It may be part of the total configuration price, butoM as they said in the tomato sauce commercial, "it's in there"!  You can buy an K Alpha without VMS.  You can buy a base VMS license, without networking, for-N around $1200.  You can buy base VMS plus the "Enterprise Integration" package,O but now, for workgroup class systems, the cost is closer to $3500.  Both pricestI are in the neighborhood of the retail price, don't make an issue of exact-L figures.  The issue is that TCP/IP is NOT included in the cost of a base VMS license.  It costs extra.b  I In the case of the ES40s, it's probably a bargan, or at least not a major O issue.  For a DS10, these costs become a much more significant part of the costs of a DS10 with VMS and TCP/IP.   Dave   -- p4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:28:09 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersd, Message-ID: <8jiea9$55r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  x In article <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844A2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes: >Andrew, >a! >Thank you for the great setup !!t > J >>>> because DEC totally missed the move from people making apps to peopleL >buying apps and most crucially it lost its position because DEC and laterlyM >Compaq though that you didn't need to market the OS and its capabilities. <<  >d( >Applications, marketing .. absolutely ! > . >Check it out: (remember, you asked for it ..) >tM ><http://www.oracle.com/cgi-bin/press/printpr.cgi?file=200006281130.25961.htmtM >l&mode=corp&td=1&tm=7&fd=1&fm=5&status=Search&ty=2000&limit=50&fy=2000> (oned >url)a >aI >"Compaq Adopts the Oracle Internet Platform Across Server Product Lines"d  F Kerry, your antiFUD is getting to be worse than Andrew's regular FUD.   E Andrew's statement is correct.  (That's not the whole story, but it'se certainly part of it.) i  I Your counter example just makes his point more strongly.  It demonstrated J how very unusual it is for Compaq to do any advertising, and it highlightsI the fact that there are precious few products one can buy "off the shelf"aL for OpenVMS.  (Not that Oracle is really an off the shelf sort of product - 7 you're work is all ahead of you once it's installed.)  e  H Would anybody make a big deal about Sun or IBM running an ad?  Of courseF not, they do it all the time, that's the normal way of doing business.H DEC's method of doing business was hideously abnormal.  The odd thing isL that up to now Compaq has done so little to change it.  This is all the moreK incomprehensible because Compaq advertises a tremendous amount for it's PCSsK - they must spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on all those ads.  K So Compaq as a company does know how to advertise, and does understand the  K value of advertising, yet it seems to have adopted the suicidal DEC stealth  marketing concept. e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edud? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:47:24 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersf( Message-ID: <8jifch$r4q$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageD news:910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844B9@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com... > Bill,h >eF > The pointer below also has no OS Alpha (called Linux-Ready) config's which,J > assuming you have alternate licensing schemes and media already in place in: > your environment, are cheaper than the bundled packages. >t$ > Is this what you were looking for?  L Thanks - it's at least in the right direction.  The remaining question wouldJ be how one might go about obtaining such an 'alternate' license and media.   - bill   >a
 > Regards, >c > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant, > Compaq Canada- > Professional Services  > Voice : 613-592-4660 > FAX   : 819-772-7036 > Email : kerry.main@compaq.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:27:35 -0400-+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> 7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusters J Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844C2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   David,  E <<< Would anybody make a big deal about Sun or IBM running an ad? <<<.  L First, this is a major partnership announcement, not an ad - big difference.  L Anyway - puuuulllease ... How long has it been since folks on this list haveJ been complaining about getting applications back on OpenVMS, about gettingD major players (like Oracle) putting more emphasis on OpenVMS, better marketing etc ..  C Now, it starts to happen, Oracle makes a major change in its futurerJ application strategy that will be available on OpenVMS and now you say "hoI hum"... Just because you do not use Oracle, surely this should be seen asr" good news anyway for the platform?  J I am sorry the fud from Andrew is getting to you, but for those interested9 in moving OpenVMS forward, this is definately good news.    L In terms of importance to Oracle, check out front page of eWeek (formerly PC= Week) where all those mass media types go to get their news :   ( http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/ (front page)B http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596660,00.htmlB http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596485,00.html  ' Is the end all, be all? Of course not. b  K Oracle is a multi-platform vendor just like Compaq.  I would expect them togJ add additional vendors in the future as well. Just as you can expect other' deals between Compaq and other vendors.t  K However, as stated a number of times recently, this is only the beginning. -  K Internally, this was received as great news, and we certainly do not intendoL to wallow in the gloom-n-doom of those who want to dwell on past mistakes ..? its time to move on and focus on continue growing the business.2  
 geeezzz..   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canada  Professional Servicesr Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comn       -----Original Message-----# From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu & [mailto:mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu]$ Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 11:28 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clusterse    J In article <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844A2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>,- "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes:t >Andrew, >r! >Thank you for the great setup !!0 >CJ >>>> because DEC totally missed the move from people making apps to peopleL >buying apps and most crucially it lost its position because DEC and laterlyJ >Compaq though that you didn't need to market the OS and its capabilities. << >t( >Applications, marketing .. absolutely ! >o. >Check it out: (remember, you asked for it ..) > L ><http://www.oracle.com/cgi-bin/press/printpr.cgi?file=200006281130.25961.ht mTH >l&mode=corp&td=1&tm=7&fd=1&fm=5&status=Search&ty=2000&limit=50&fy=2000> (one >url)t >gI >"Compaq Adopts the Oracle Internet Platform Across Server Product Lines",  F Kerry, your antiFUD is getting to be worse than Andrew's regular FUD.   E Andrew's statement is correct.  (That's not the whole story, but it'si certainly part of it.) b  I Your counter example just makes his point more strongly.  It demonstrated J how very unusual it is for Compaq to do any advertising, and it highlightsI the fact that there are precious few products one can buy "off the shelf" L for OpenVMS.  (Not that Oracle is really an off the shelf sort of product - 7 you're work is all ahead of you once it's installed.)  a  H Would anybody make a big deal about Sun or IBM running an ad?  Of courseF not, they do it all the time, that's the normal way of doing business.H DEC's method of doing business was hideously abnormal.  The odd thing isL that up to now Compaq has done so little to change it.  This is all the moreK incomprehensible because Compaq advertises a tremendous amount for it's PCStK - they must spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on all those ads. lK So Compaq as a company does know how to advertise, and does understand the aK value of advertising, yet it seems to have adopted the suicidal DEC stealth  marketing concept. 0   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edut? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:02:25 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersr( Message-ID: <8jijp3$1ge$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageD news:910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844C2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com...   ...	  F > Internally, this was received as great news, and we certainly do not intendK > to wallow in the gloom-n-doom of those who want to dwell on past mistakes  ..A > its time to move on and focus on continue growing the business.* >* > geeezzz..*  K While I can understand your frustration that good news may be received withnI skepticism, you should yourself understand that this skepticism is whollyr4 justified - not just by history, but by the present.  G The fact is that there is absolutely no external sign of any *dramatic* E turn-around in the way VMS is being handled - and anything short of ai4 dramatic turn-around will only delay the inevitable.  K Maybe such a dramatic turn-around really is starting, and we just can't seesK the evidence yet (the "it takes a long time to get a super-tanker to change,I direction" explanation).  If so, no one will be happier than the skeptics-	 among us.m  L But until that evidence becomes pretty clear, expect people who care to keepL pushing hard, hoping that because things are in a state of flux the push may
 do some good.o   - bill   >: > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant, > Compaq Canadal > Professional Servicesl > Voice : 613-592-4660 > FAX   : 819-772-7036 > Email : kerry.main@compaq.comi   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:20:32 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)7 Subject: RE: OpenVMS clusters vs other systems clustersi+ Message-ID: <PLSHO+GzNK1k@eisner.decus.org>a  x In article <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844C2@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes: > David, > G > <<< Would anybody make a big deal about Sun or IBM running an ad? <<<s > N > First, this is a major partnership announcement, not an ad - big difference. > N > Anyway - puuuulllease ... How long has it been since folks on this list haveL > been complaining about getting applications back on OpenVMS, about gettingF > major players (like Oracle) putting more emphasis on OpenVMS, better > marketing etc .. > E > Now, it starts to happen, Oracle makes a major change in its futuremL > application strategy that will be available on OpenVMS and now you say "hoK > hum"... Just because you do not use Oracle, surely this should be seen as $ > good news anyway for the platform? > L > I am sorry the fud from Andrew is getting to you, but for those interested; > in moving OpenVMS forward, this is definately good news.   > N > In terms of importance to Oracle, check out front page of eWeek (formerly PC? > Week) where all those mass media types go to get their news :  > * > http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/ (front page)D > http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596660,00.htmlD > http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596485,00.html > ) > Is the end all, be all? Of course not. c > M > Oracle is a multi-platform vendor just like Compaq.  I would expect them topL > add additional vendors in the future as well. Just as you can expect other) > deals between Compaq and other vendors.e > M > However, as stated a number of times recently, this is only the beginning. e > M > Internally, this was received as great news, and we certainly do not intendoN > to wallow in the gloom-n-doom of those who want to dwell on past mistakes ..A > its time to move on and focus on continue growing the business.s >  > geeezzz..  >     < 	Yeah , but what about Netware?  Just today I received email9 	from someone stating that Netware is getting the boot atr 	their shop for BGInc stuff.   	Just curious.   				Rob     O *******************************************************************************lO *                                RIP NetWare                                  * O *******************************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:35:40 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au ; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertisese5 Message-ID: <01JR84P2HAHE0016KF@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>b   Bill,i  G >'Viable' is not a synonym for 'alive'.  My (oldish) dictionary defines I >'viable' as 'able to live and develop under normal conditions', 'able tok >take root and grow'.i  I As a lover of words, I now always resort to Merriam-Webster.  With a few (J extensions to your definition, I would too have agreed with you.  M-W now Q includes the definition 3.2 "financially sustainable".  Which I think serves the p
 purpose.    P I concede that I do despair of some of these "new" accepted definitions, but we # dinasours must move with the times.t  P [OT, I recently had some discussion with my wife who studies horticulture.  She N used the word "vector" as a pollinator.  Other than the mathematical usage, I P had only known it as a disease carrying host.  No other printed dictionary that N I have recourse to includes "pollinator".  M-W now includes it -- "now" is of M indeterminate date :-).  As with most discussions with my wife, I invariably .Q have to concede defeat -- even though her superiority is not always justified by 5P resorting to M-W, usually I have to concede because she "said so", with the "or  else" implication :-).]    Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,r
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiah   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,-; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.p   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 08:19:20 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)c; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertisesx+ Message-ID: <K7lOF6yP86Ho@eisner.decus.org>t   In article <88QiedE5WIdL@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:i > In article <GQI1aC+b+oKV@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: d >> In article <8jg3va$q40@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > [...]iP >>> Funny thing in a way that they are going for "solaris-like" APIs when Tru64 N >>> compatibility would in many ways be more natural.  But they didn't make up& >>> the COE standard, and that's that. >>  F >> Both Solaris and Tru64 are COE certified.  So is HP-UX.  Windows NT >> is grandfathered in. ...  >      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^r > F >         Gack!  The new kid on the block is "grandfathered in"???  On >     what basis?i  % This decision was made in Washington. $ Did you have any further questions ?  G P.S. to Andrew, individuals participating in this newsgroup are no mores? 	in control of the US government than you are in control of thes 	UK government.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:21:24 -0400I* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises - Message-ID: <395BE804.2F200732@tsoft-inc.com>d   David Mathog wrote:e > J > I don't know yet.  The requirements for a competitive general purpose OSM > right now are very simple - it must be able to build and run code developedcK > on Unix systems, with no more than a trivial amount of code changes (suchpI > as that between Unixes) required.  That's because all code that runs on K > OpenVMS now comes from Unix, and anything that creates an incompatibilityeL > is a bug, not a feature.  OpenVMS has a chance of getting back in the game" > once you a customer can do this:  K What's really sad is that we both want basically the same thing.  But, talkkM about contradictions.  "General purpose OS must be able to build and run codepM developed on Unix systems"?  Come on.  Sounds a lot like when the Unix peoplecP talked about 'open' systems, and meant Unix.  So everything I developed over theN last 20 plus years that's running on VMS was developed on a Unix system, and IN was never aware of that.  Darn Unix systems sure fooled me.  Did a nice job ofO acting like a VMS system.  Then again, there's the possibility that you live in P a very small world, and refuse to acknowledge anywhere else exists.  Now, if youN were to say that all the software YOU run on VMS comes from Unix, then I couldL take you seriously.  I'd also have a lot more sympathy for your problems and needs.  F > It would also be nice if Compaq finally realized that its clusteringH > technology could be used to sell more OpenVMS machines, but that it isM > worth very little more than Unix NFS/NIS style solutions to most customers,1I > and since groups of OpenVMS machines basically don't work together wellm > unless in VMS clusters,   3 Hmmm....  and you've never seen DECnet work either.e  3 > they are presenting the customers with the choice I > of inexpensive clusters (Unix) or with OpenVMS, either no clustering ord > unaffordable clustering. >  > >nK > >Would this not seem like the best of both worlds? The RASS (reliability,iO > >availability, scalability and security) and unique features (like Galaxy) ofp? > >OpenVMS combined with the Linux/UNIX applications available.6 > J > I don't ever expect to own a Galaxy class machine - it is IRRELEVANT forL > shops smaller than data centers.  The guys who wrote all the software thatG > grew up to run at Celera did it almost entirely on unix workstations.wK > OpenVMS RASS is not substantially better than the competition (except forrC > security, which really is a lot better than on Unix.)  For 99% ofa  J Here you need to substitute "the type of work I do" for the word 'market'.  M > the market Unix style NIS/NFS is adequate, and the insanely high prices forwJ > "real" OpenVMS clustering are an unjustifiable expense.  Rather than payM > for OpenVMS security they go and hide behind a firewall, which is much lessiL > expensive.  If OpenVMS's features were worth as much as you wish they wereK > Compaq would be selling scads of small clusters everywhere, but it isn't,gK > the only sales we ever hear about are for datacenter style installations.hG > Now you may say, "Celera is running a huge, sort of datacenter, stylel: > installation, so why shouldn't they consider OpenVMS?"    N Why should they?  They apparently have a working solution.  If it ain't broke,P don't fix it.  Of course, they do now have an awful lot of data that competitorsN might like to have, and probably will have even more in the future.  Wonder ifI the excellant security ov VMS interests them.  Then they can just cut allg outside links, that works also.,   > Well, besidesfM > their not wanting to rewrite their code, a lot of what they do involves the M > generation and manipulation of a zillion small files, and OpenVMS is turtlej$ > slow at that particular operation.  K As use of this type of data becomes more common, I wouldn't be surprised ifMO someone produced a database product that specializes in storage and retrival ofa this specific type of data.h  N > >In terms of marketing and applications, is not todays announcements for newJ > >Oracle IAS (Internet Application Server) middleware software being made@ > >available on OpenVMS a good start to making up for lost time? > J > No, because I don't use Oracle on my own machines, and there was nothingM > else of interest there.  I suppose it's good news for the data center guys, @ > and I'm happy for them, but its irrelevant for everybody else.  O Not sure if you're just stating a fact, or saying that if it's not relavent for , you, then it's not worth being done for VMS.  O > >Are not the recent endorsements from major Customers like E*Trade on the new,J > >Alpha GS Series a good sign that Customers (and ISV's) are re-examining# > >their strategies around OpenVMS?r > M > Come on guy, E*trade is a new customer, but it's the same old market.  ReadaK > R. Marcello's letter on the OpenVMS web site.  The only markets mentionednM > are process control (mostly done on chip assembly lines by VAXes) and large-I > scale transaction processing.  Now Compaq may break it down into HealthlK > care, stock exchanges, and so forth, but the bottom line is that they arenK > all doing basically the same thing on their machines, and E*trade is moreVD > of the same.  Nobody is saying that OpenVMS isn't a great OS for aM > datacenter doing transaction processing - the problem is with the other 99%O5 > of computing applications that it isn't addressing.  > N > >However, while perhaps not fast enough for readers of this list, surely theM > >events of the last few months can be seen as steps in the right direction?n > I > Umm, let's see.  A few months ago I had poor performance and lousy UnixnJ > compatibility, and today I have the same poor performance and lousy UnixK > compatibility, but hear that steps are being taken which may, or may not,fL > adequately remedy this situation, and which will dribble out over the next > (unspecified) time interval. i  D Now let's see.  Where's that magic wand that will work miracles in 2I nanoseconds?  Drat!  Can't find it.  Guess I'll have to resort to the oldc> method.  Hard work for however long it takes.  So distasteful.  ' > There has been no official commitmentqG > anywhere in precise and clear terms to deliver the improvements whichiK > really are needed (see above.)  In the meantime, I can assume that a gooddJ > fraction of the support costs we pay (admittedly, on the CSLG, much lessL > than business folks pay) will not go towards OpenVMS development, but willK > instead by siphoned off to pay for development elsewhere in Compaq and ton& > prop up the PC side of the business.  M Now that's a real valid bitch, and you gotta wonder where all the VMS relatediO revenue goes, cause it sure isn't into profits which would push the stock price.M higher.  Must be some red ink somewhere drinking up the revenue, and I'm real K sure it isn't VMS.  Might be what's paying for all the AlphaServer ads that6 feature T64. Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!!8  I I have good performance, and don't give a damn about Unix compatibility. AP However I do understand that there is more than one use for a computer, and whatM works well for me may not work well for another.  I also understand that whattM doesn't work so well for me may meet anothers needs quite well.  I guess that N what rubs me the wrong way is your apparent indifference/denial of any type of! computing other than what you do.b   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:34:26 -0400w* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertisesi- Message-ID: <395BEB12.9C4183FF@tsoft-inc.com>p   Bill Todd wrote: > : > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message% > news:395B88AC.5AABDFF9@bbc.co.uk...i >  > ...h > M > > Not that stupid write thru/write back cache issue again, David? If peopleM > cannotK > > appreciate this issues involved in performance versus caching strategy,a > surely< > > they deserve evey lost/corrupted nibble they experience. > M > Rather, if VMS bigots can't appreciate them, they deserve to see the systemnN > they like go down the drain:  integrity is not at issue here, but you appear" > incapable of understanding that.  N Oh, we can appriciate them Bill, and acknowledge that VMS has fallen behind inP this area.  It's just that the issue has been beat to death many times over, andO the VMS people have told us that they are working on a solution. I'm willing todN believe them.  I'm also willing to believe that they will try to combine equalF or better performance with better reliability, cause it's the VMS way.  P Yes, it's a problem!  Yes, we acknowledge the deficiency, and feel that it neverN should have been allowed to happen.  No, it's not good that VMS doesn't handleN these applications better.  Yes, it should be addressed and made much better. " No arguments!  Complete agreement!  N What we fail to appriciate is the continual flogging of the issue after it hasO been hashed over countless times, and assurances have been delivered by the VMS4M people that the issue is currently being addressed.  So, how many times do wenO have to hear about the same old problem before we move on to other issues whileoG waiting to see what the VMS people come up with?  It's worse than spam!c   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:16:54 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)w; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertisest' Message-ID: <8ji33m$89u$1@joe.rice.edu>.  3 David Mathog (mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu) wrote:gG : Read R. Marcello's letter on the OpenVMS web site.  The only markets gG : mentioned are process control (mostly done on chip assembly lines by l2 : VAXes) and large scale transaction processing.    H VMS used to own the scada/process control market, but that has been lostK due to neglect, as well as increased computing power in distributed controlsI systems such as Honeywell TDC 3000, and desire of the PHBs/MGMs to run onn* Windows NT, whether it is reliable or not.  J A DejaNews search of the sci.engr.control newsgroup for "vms" will get few hits.-  D As for running chip assembly lines, the attached article sounds like0 that's another market that's migrating from VMS.    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)N ==============================================================================/ From: David Woodbury <r28558@email.sps.mot.com>a Newsgroups: comp.software-eng  Subject: Re: unix/nt% Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:57:04 -0700 4 Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector	 Lines: 55n1 Message-ID: <38D7E220.29AC2338@email.sps.mot.com>e) References: <8auck5$812$1@nnrp1.deja.com> + NNTP-Posting-Host: gw250-nt-135.sps.mot.comi Mime-Version: 1.0k* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitiW X-Trace: spsnews.sps.mot.com 953672277 11182 221.188.216.135 (21 Mar 2000 20:57:57 GMT)m+ X-Complaints-To: usenet@spsnews.sps.mot.coma+ NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 20:57:57 GMTw. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-MOT45  (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en    Jeanie:e  L You may want to post your question on the GW Associates mailing list.  CheckD out gwa.com for information how to join. The folks on that list haveJ semiconductor automation backgrounds and many have NT and Unix experience.  B My own impression is that the commercial suppliers of MES softwareK (Manufacturing Execution Systems) are moving to NT in a big way - companies I such as PRI, Brooks Automation, and Consilium.  Their move to NT may be a0I factor in your company's decision to migrate to NT.  There's some historylK here too. Years ago, VMS was the MES host system of choice, then along cametK Unix. Unix now has a fairly large representation in semiconductor fabs, butoI by no means has it replaced VMS. From a software developer's perspective,pJ its very tough to match the quantity and quality of tools available on NT.G (As well as price!)  I'm talking about compilers, debuggers, libraries,eJ editors, integrated development environments, and configuration management tools.  L I also think that the biggest risk with a move to a new operating system hasK as much to do with the maturity of the new applications as it does with thetI OS itself.  Regardless of what the new OS is, it'll be tough to duplicateeE the reliability and stability of a system that's been in use for 5-10	 years.  K BTW: The comment that "90% of the worlds microprocessors being made on VMS"*J refers to the fact the most semiconductor fabs use some VMS hosted MES forD tracking and controlling production activities. (PROMIS, Workstream)  
 Dave Woodbury*      ! jeanie_schwenk@my-deja.com wrote:   F > The company I work for is doing a redesign/rewrite of the automationF > systems for a semiconductor fab. We are currently running HP-UX in aJ > distributed environment. Most seem to be leaning towards moving the GUI,C > the business logic applications, statistical process control, theeE > drivers etcetera to NT and I feel this is going to be a big,big,BIGkH > mistake. No matter which path we choose, new hardware is going to be aI > necessity. We run 24x7 so 100% uptime is the goal. The arguments I heareD > in favor of NT are:   It's cheaper. It's just as reliable as unix.H > There's more software for NT. Management supports it. If we limit what@ > we run, we won't run into problems with the system files being' > overwritten. The list goes on and on.r >nI > I have not hands-on work with NT and I would like to know what problemstI > anyone out there has run across with NT. I know this is like discussingaH > religion or politics but please respond with facts I can use to eitherI > support or refute the NT path. No arguments can be won if there are notw& > facts to back up the position taken. >m( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:54:57 +0100n- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> ; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises,) Message-ID: <395CB4C1.6D28822F@bbc.co.uk>l   David A Froble wrote:B   >  > Well, besidesO > > their not wanting to rewrite their code, a lot of what they do involves the:O > > generation and manipulation of a zillion small files, and OpenVMS is turtle)& > > slow at that particular operation. >lM > As use of this type of data becomes more common, I wouldn't be surprised if-Q > someone produced a database product that specializes in storage and retrival ofL > this specific type of data.O >V  R Sure, the "lots of small files" approach is definitely unixy, and there are surely betterP ways to do this in VMS. I cans see the point of David's frustrations, but if youO want real performance from VMS surely you have to architect your code that way.V     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk:  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of- MedAS or the BBC.6   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:02:00 +0100m- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> ; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertisesU) Message-ID: <395CB668.306066D1@bbc.co.uk>    David A Froble wrote:r   > Bill Todd wrote: > >n< > > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message' > > news:395B88AC.5AABDFF9@bbc.co.uk...n > >  > > ...  > >aO > > > Not that stupid write thru/write back cache issue again, David? If peopler
 > > cannotM > > > appreciate this issues involved in performance versus caching strategy,e
 > > surely> > > > they deserve evey lost/corrupted nibble they experience. > >0O > > Rather, if VMS bigots can't appreciate them, they deserve to see the systemaP > > they like go down the drain:  integrity is not at issue here, but you appear$ > > incapable of understanding that. >   J OK I have more data now on the applications in question and it appears theR problem is not just a few tens of percentage due to caching, as I assumed wrongly.B That to me is an application architecture and/or deployment issue.  F What worries me (playing the VMS bigot cause someone has to sometimes)H is that VMS will get bogged down so much with all the Unix compatabilityD that the performance and VMS-specific design methoodogy will suffer.  --y6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uka  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.l   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:05:13 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog); Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises , Message-ID: <8jicv9$55r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  g In article <K7lOF6yP86Ho@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s >In article <88QiedE5WIdL@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:hj >> In article <GQI1aC+b+oKV@eisner.decus.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e >>> In article <8jg3va$q40@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:  >> [...]Q >>>> Funny thing in a way that they are going for "solaris-like" APIs when Tru64 tO >>>> compatibility would in many ways be more natural.  But they didn't make upo' >>>> the COE standard, and that's that.  >>> G >>> Both Solaris and Tru64 are COE certified.  So is HP-UX.  Windows NT  >>> is grandfathered in. ... >>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> iG >>         Gack!  The new kid on the block is "grandfathered in"???  On  >>     what basis? > & >This decision was made in Washington.% >Did you have any further questions ?,  C Just one - does the COE have any real value as a standard promotingeG application portability?  Since Solaris sources are even less likely to J work out of the box on NT than they do on OpenVMS NOW, even before the COE= work, the value of this "standard" seems questionable indeed.h  K Which isn't to say that the COE work going on in OpenVMS won't be useful -  7 anything that makes porting from Unix easier is a plus.t   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edut? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:27:12 -0400s' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>o; Subject: Re: OpenVMS loses big, was:  RE: Compaq advertises ( Message-ID: <8jihn3$t82$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message ' news:395BEB12.9C4183FF@tsoft-inc.com...r > Bill Todd wrote: > >e< > > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message' > > news:395B88AC.5AABDFF9@bbc.co.uk...w > >r > > ...u > > H > > > Not that stupid write thru/write back cache issue again, David? If people
 > > cannotC > > > appreciate this issues involved in performance versus cachingV	 strategy,h
 > > surely> > > > they deserve evey lost/corrupted nibble they experience. > >'H > > Rather, if VMS bigots can't appreciate them, they deserve to see the systemI > > they like go down the drain:  integrity is not at issue here, but you  appear$ > > incapable of understanding that. >eF > Oh, we can appriciate them Bill, and acknowledge that VMS has fallen	 behind inhH > this area.  It's just that the issue has been beat to death many times	 over, andiF > the VMS people have told us that they are working on a solution. I'm
 willing toJ > believe them.  I'm also willing to believe that they will try to combine equal'H > or better performance with better reliability, cause it's the VMS way. >tL > Yes, it's a problem!  Yes, we acknowledge the deficiency, and feel that it neveraI > should have been allowed to happen.  No, it's not good that VMS doesn'tp handleG > these applications better.  Yes, it should be addressed and made muchs better.a$ > No arguments!  Complete agreement!  J If there were anything like complete agreement, this discussion would have ceased long ago.   >eL > What we fail to appriciate is the continual flogging of the issue after it haseI > been hashed over countless times, and assurances have been delivered byn the VMS L > people that the issue is currently being addressed.  So, how many times do weK > have to hear about the same old problem before we move on to other issuesp whilee2 > waiting to see what the VMS people come up with?  H Exactly as many times as people like Tim keep posting comments making itG clear that they *still* don't understand that the issue is purely a VMSeG performance deficiency, not some kind of trade-off involving integrity. D This is the VMS bigot's version of the 'big lie' (reverse snake oil,K anyone?), and it gets repeated so often that without vigorous refutation iteJ seems likely to continue to dominate the thinking not only of participantsJ here but within the development group - which will not do VMS much good in the real world.o   - bill     It's worse than spam!a >S > Dave >a > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com8 > T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:50:27 GMTe8 From: Kjell Arne Rekaa <Kjell.Arne.Rekaa@satcom.nera.no>* Subject: Oracle - Emb. SQL program: ACCVIO. Message-ID: <395C6D2A.7685A509@satcom.nera.no>  H I have a program with ORACLE embedded SQL code in it, which crashes with   ACCESS VIOLATION.nG Since the virtual address=00000001, does this mean that the "sqlbdv" is.	 trying toe execute from address 1?g  G If I remember right, everything below address %x200 is reserved for VMSG andI( NOT available for my process to execute?  F Are there any ORACLE-gurus out there to tell me how I could track this	 situationc@ further down? - Is this actually a week point in OpenVMS Oracle?  3 %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00,nD                   virtual address=00000001, PC=173A2764, PS=0000001B/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows A  Image Name   Module Name     Routine Name    Line Number  rel PCu abs PCB  CRRBS        SQLEXP          sqlbdv                45231 00003504 173A2764B  CRRBS        SQLEXP          sqlexp                46184 000098B8 173A8B18B  CRRBS        SQLEXP          sqlcex                47421 0001596C 173B4BCCB  CRRBS        CRRCVL5         read_cr_susp           6897 0000F154 17378764B  CRRBS        CRRCVL5         fetch_next_susp       16698 00022E30 1738C440B  CRRBS        CRRCVL3         FetchSuspendedC        2941 00000CA8 173688E8B  CRRBS        CRRCVSP         _CRRCVRunningMi        2938 0000164C 173629ACB  CRRBS        CRRCVFD         RunningStProc          8859 00000600 17391510B  CRRBS        CRRCVFD         CRRBS_PROC             9141 000008A0 173917B0B  CRRBS        CRRCVFD         main                   9306 00001130 17392040B  CRRBS        CRRCVFD         __main                    0 000000A4 17390FB4B  CRRBS                                                  0 8001B474 8002B474A                                                        0 BD84C170I BD84C170   Kjell Arne Rekaa Kjell.Arne.Rekaa@satcom.nera.noE   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:06:57 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>. Subject: Re: Oracle - Emb. SQL program: ACCVIOL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0006301200270.17060-100000@localhost.localdomain>  , On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Kjell Arne Rekaa wrote:  I +I have a program with ORACLE embedded SQL code in it, which crashes witha +ACCESS VIOLATION.H +Since the virtual address=00000001, does this mean that the "sqlbdv" is" +trying to execute from address 1?  ?  Since the PC points to 173A2764, probably the code will accessn/ *data* (read or write) under address 00000001 !d  H +If I remember right, everything below address %x200 is reserved for VMS- +and NOT available for my process to execute?t  9 IMHO the best way to self-debbug a usage of uninitialiseda pointers in code... -;)e  G +Are there any ORACLE-gurus out there to tell me how I could track thisa +situation further down?  :  Not speaking about Oracle - if you SET PROCES/DUMP before< (crash) then you can get the place, where some register with0 value set to 1 is used as a pointer to memory...    Regards - Gotfryd   --E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEn. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:37:12 -0400c+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>!5 Subject: RE: Oracle Press Release, incl. OpenVMS infogJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D8052844B8@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   David,  C >>> Now, how do we go about getting this out to the mass media? <<<s  F Well, for starters, the press release info is on the front page of the Compaq and Oracle home pages.   J In addition, the Oracle article is on the front page of eWeek (formerly PC	 Week) at:  <http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/> D <http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596660,00.html>D <http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2596485,00.html>    quote from 1st article in eWeek:  L "The centerpiece of the company's Oracle.Now makeover is the Oracle InternetL Application Server 8i, which Oracle officially rolled out at an event at its& Redwood Shores, Calif., headquarters.   K The app server is filled with new features designed to make it the nexus of.K an e-business' computing universe. Its main selling point is the ability tohI cache data from the Oracle 8i database. This feature reduces the time WebmJ surfers have to wait by putting much of the data closer to the Web server.L It also improves the scalability and performance of the database by reducingI the number of calls it gets from those Web applications, officials said.    " Analysts liked the caching plans.   H "It's standard practice for developers to put caching schemes into theirI applications," said Thomas Murphy, program director at the Meta Group, of I Stamford, Conn. "The advantage for programmers is they will have a way toi0 have seamless high-performance cache built in."   J The Java-based Internet Application Server 8i also incorporates the ApacheI Web server, the query and reporting services of the Oracle Discoverer and I Oracle Reports business intelligence applications, and Component ServicescA for building applications from pre-built, Java-based components. n  G [and it will be available on all Compaq platforms - including OpenVMS.].   :-)8   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadam Professional Servicesg Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.comr       -----Original Message-----< From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@earthlink.net]& Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:17 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comp5 Subject: Re: Oracle Press Release, incl. OpenVMS info7     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > ! > As a followup to Steve's note -t > K > A few pointers for those folks who have beed asking for more applicationsa > and marketing of OpenVMS:  > H > <http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?228177.html> (Oracle Pressa
 > release) > ; > <http://www.oracle.com/tellmemore/?228177> (Tell me more)s >  >hL <http://www1.compaq.com/pressrelease/0,1494,wp%7E14583_2%21ob%7E31866_1_1,00 > .html> (Compaq Press release)n > I > And in case, some folks missed the other posting (and I like the splash0 > stuff :-)o/ > <http://www.openvms.digital.com/e-postcard1/>s/ > <http://www.openvms.digital.com/e-postcard2/>SJ > (under each url is a pointer that you can save and run directly on a PC) [snip]  ; Now, how do we go about getting this out to the mass media?   0 Preaching to the choir = spitting into the wind!  H (Pardon my tone, but I don't know how to drive that point home anymore!)   --   David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systems " http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:+ http://home.earthlink.net/~djesys/vms/soho/k   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:12:31 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)B Subject: Re: ramdisk vs. file cache, and the winner is, file cache, Message-ID: <8jidcv$55r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  c In article <8J8EMI$QDR$1@LEAD.ZK3.DEC.COM>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:bF >Remove the printf's to eliminate text output speed.  Just capture the >elapsed time. >f    I did that in a later post, see:  @   http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=633650884&fmt=text  K The result was that every operation tested was 2.5 to 6.7 times slower thanwF the Linux/filecache equivalent.  Where operations are: creating files," reading files, and writing files,    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduU? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:25:24 +0100I# From: nic <no-spam@no.spam.allowed>e. Subject: Re: RS232 CTS/RTS flow control on VAX. Message-ID: <395CC9F4.17E8ED9@no.spam.allowed>   nospam@nohost.no.net wrote:o >  > Greetings,? >           is the use of RS232 hardware flow control on a VAX,o4 > in particular, the CXY08 board described anywhere. > = > This is needed for flow control for a device on our system.r5 > XON/XOFF cannot be used because of the application.s >   * Have you looked at HELP SET TERM /COMMSYNC /TTSYNCH	 /HOSTSYNCt	 /READSYNCn /MODEM  D This forms the basis of HELP on RS232 signalling as supported by the? CXY08. Compaq do have a support document (WIS/DECTEL/AES) whichhE describes connecting a modem to a system which also explains how flowp control works.  @ Also look at /ALTYP and /TYPE_A which may help with flow controlF problems by buffering, and /PASTHRU to stop control characters getting translated.     You probaly need something like:B SET TERM/PERM/COMMSY/NOTTS/NOHOST/ALTY/NOMOD/PASTHRU/NOINTER TXcn:  H but you also need to see if setting such as ECHO and WRAP, FORM, and TAB# affect if you're not using PASTHRU.   G My comms T-Shirt is worn out and not been used in a long time, so checka3 before you buy my advice, but I hope it has helped!  Regards, --   Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences.1 email : n c l e w s   a t   c s c   d o t   c o mm   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:33:40 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e7 Subject: slightly off-topic/InfoServer function pricingh0 Message-ID: <009EC5FE.BD5C0B61@SendSpamHere.ORG>   Just a quick question...  F What is the cost for adding InfoServer Tape function to an InfoServer?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMO  H        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_063.htmlH        http://www.OpenVMS.digital.com:8000/72final/9996/9996pro_072.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:15:27 GMTo( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha3' Message-ID: <FwyHHr.6vI@spcuna.spc.edu>w  ; Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> writes:g? > Ok, so what features of the DS10L would the assembled expertsc@ > suggest Compaq omit to make a more affordable sub-DS10 Alpha ?  I   Margin. The basic components of the DS10 are fine as they are (with the.J exception of the sluggish ELSA GLoria, but if there isn't any other entry-I level board even for people who don't mind paying the current price, thencJ it's not reasonable to expect Compaq to do one for people who want a lower price).   I   It was possible to buy well-loaded DS10's from top-tier distributors atfH really good prices. I bought 2 DS10's and a friend bought another, whichK had 512MB, 2 9GB Compaq SCSI drives, a Compaq SCSI controller, and the ELSA I graphics card, for under $4000 each. Now, to be honest, there was a partspG availability issue here - the distributor said "we don't have the 256MBoK memory config in stock - would you like 512MB for the same price?" but theyiG (and Compaq) were obviously making money on the deal or they would haveV declined the sale.  8   Today, a distributor has DS10's as low as $3814 - see:  B http://www.screamsonalpha.avnetdirect.com/custom/bundles/index.asp  5   But their "Package C" (now $4982) used to be $3799.O  +   You can compare their prices to Compaq's:t  *   "Package B": Avnet, $4259; Compaq, $5832*   "Package C": Avnet, $4982; Compaq, $6818  J   Now, compare the Compaq "Package C" price of $6818 to the original AvnetI price of $3799. Never mind the extra 256MB of memory that the distributor0@ threw in that raises the Compaq price to $10069 (2 256MB SIMMs)   J   These are for systems with Linux, so there are the assorted VMS licensesG (if you don't qualify for Hobbyist, CSLG, or developer status). But the.0 above shows the obscene margins on the hardware.  - 	Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com@5         terry@tmk.com             Jersey City, NJ USA(   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:38:38 +0000 (UTC)+' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>. Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alphal, Message-ID: <8ji0ru$qsd$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  : Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote:  ? > Ok, so what features of the DS10L would the assembled expertso@ > suggest Compaq omit to make a more affordable sub-DS10 Alpha ?  	 How aboutr   1) "commoditize" it: - make fit to PC atx-box& - 168-pin SDRAMs (too much to change?)( - "PC-standard" cache (",is it already?) - ...H1 - sell "naked" as motherboard+processor if wanted>: (Margins at dimms,disks,cabinets etc. seem to be over 50%)4 But 466 MHz is not very competitive with 1+ GHz X86.  I 2) Half the prices and declare DS10 to be the PC-model. (Add new enhancede    model to replace DS10.)  E 3) Take old EV5 motherboard like PC164LX and build from that. It runsoG    VMS and is ATX-compatible. Needs only that licenses are made cheaperhC    and sold freely. Now you may succeed to get VMS license from 3rdhE    parties but local DEC offices said it's illegal. Most of those OEMoB    boards are not supported to run VMS. Could they go through some-    partial testing and get "partial support"?l=    But is it possible to produce EV5:s anymore, and are theretJ    problems with availability or price of some components in older boards?  I    I guess this won't work. EV5 is too slow to compete unless VMS is freel    for them.  K                                                                         /OK    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:59:27 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 AlphaT, Message-ID: <8jickf$55r@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  R In article <FwyHHr.6vI@spcuna.spc.edu>, Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> writes: >uK >  Now, compare the Compaq "Package C" price of $6818 to the original Avnet J >price of $3799. Never mind the extra 256MB of memory that the distributorA >threw in that raises the Compaq price to $10069 (2 256MB SIMMs) o >cK >  These are for systems with Linux, so there are the assorted VMS licensescH >(if you don't qualify for Hobbyist, CSLG, or developer status). But the1 >above shows the obscene margins on the hardware.r  J When purchasing a DS10 buy the most basic model Compaq sells at that time,H from a reseller, and let them add third party disks, memory, and graphicK cards.  It makes no sense whatsoever to pay Compaq's markup on those parts,eJ and you can usually see itemized how much the reseller is charging you forH these parts, so if it's more than the convenience of having it assembledD for you is worth, you buy the parts from the usual places on the net and install them yourself. e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edue? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech a   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 08:13:35 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)l/ Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)p+ Message-ID: <AWEuaHRi$KK8@eisner.decus.org>e  S In article <395C047A.E9AFF712@mediaone.net>, Ed Wilts <ewilts@mediaone.net> writes:u > Arne Vajhj wrote: >> s9 >> But what would a DS05 delivered early 2001 consist of:d& >> - a board with a 667 MHz Alpha chip >> - a PCI bus >> - 128 MB memory >> - a 18 GB IDE disk  >> - a CD drivet >> - a floopy drive  >> - a power supplyo >> - a cabinet; >> - keyboard & mouse (let us make monitor optional, peoplex2 >>   often has an old or want a new bigger anyway) > E > Get rid of the darn keyboard & mouse!  I'm accumulating too many of H > these as it is.  My systems are servers, not desktops, and as such areG > connected to a cluster console system that doesn't require a keyboards > and mouse for every server.g  E In that case, I would say that you are not the target customer for antC entry-level machine.  The ideal, as I understood it, was to make ittD easy to put VMS into someplace where it would be the _only_ computerB that is not embedded in a VCR, automobile engine, wristwatch, lawn sprinkler, etc.r   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 08:10:05 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)n+ Message-ID: <Dm$WfC1vj$wq@eisner.decus.org>   i In article <395BABBB.A0AA5D72@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:R  ! > But my recommendation would be: < >   - just make one variant with a life-span of 12-24 months( >     to make volume as high as possible  C I don't think they are going to build a 24-month supply all at onceiC (who could calculate what that number would be), and I believe they.C genuinely have trouble (as does any company) buying parts that wereh current 24-months ago.  C Personally I am quite happy to use computers designed several years 3 ago, but it is somewhat harder to manufacture them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:50:57 -0400 * From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>/ Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel) - Message-ID: <395BEEF1.95DC489B@tsoft-inc.com>0   Hank Vander Waal wrote:b > $ > I can not resist -   The margin!!! >  > Hank Vander Waal  
 Good shot.  F > >> Creating a sub-DS10 Alpha hardware platform will have significantF > >> development costs. If Compaq does not believe that they will sellE > >> in sufficient quantities, that's a sensible reason not to do so. E > >> (I'm not arguing that they are right, and I suspect that if theydE > >> add the potential Linux market for a really cheap Alpha platform 3 > >> they are wrong. But I don't have the figures.)R > >   > > You got my vote on this one. > ? > Ok, so what features of the DS10L would the assembled expertsV@ > suggest Compaq omit to make a more affordable sub-DS10 Alpha ?  L The DS10L is designed specifically for rack mounting many systems in a smallP space.  It's not really a general lower cost system.  The DS10 would be a betterN starting point.  And you're right.  Not too much there to trim, except as Hank suggested, 'the margin'.  K As has been stated elsewhere, maybe the best choice for low cost systems is0O continued production of prior generation machines, assuming that all set-up and7P related costs have already been recouped.  Just churn out a bunch more, and sellK them significantly lower than the current generation's lowest cost system. tM There's a lot of AlphaStation 200 and 255 systems out there still in use, andLI doing a good job for their users.  This is a valid option for entry levela systems.   Dave   -- F4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 11:48:04 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)0/ Subject: Re: Sub-DS10 Alpha (was: VAX on Intel)w+ Message-ID: <7J9Q4VO1dfl5@eisner.decus.org>a  Z In article <395BEEF1.95DC489B@tsoft-inc.com>, David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  M > As has been stated elsewhere, maybe the best choice for low cost systems iseQ > continued production of prior generation machines, assuming that all set-up andiR > related costs have already been recouped.  Just churn out a bunch more, and sellM > them significantly lower than the current generation's lowest cost system.  O > There's a lot of AlphaStation 200 and 255 systems out there still in use, andNK > doing a good job for their users.  This is a valid option for entry levelC
 > systems.  D Certainly the used machines are worthwhile, but I don't think makingB more of older generations is an option.  The boards use parts from> various manufacturers that are not made anymore.  Like the VAXA products, I don't think the older chips are made anymore either !    ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:21:34 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>P Subject: RE: Transparent login to another cluster node using DECnet Task-to-TaskL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0006301309280.17060-100000@localhost.localdomain>    Hello !5  Althought the DRLOGIN resolution was mentikned here,C only me unnecessary -;] $.02  ) On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Boyle, Darren wrote:t [...]eI +another machine with the need for username or password.  I'm not exactly/- +sure what you mean by a "transparent login",c  =  Probaly login *without* username & password input, basing ono the previous authetication.p  + + nor do I know why you want to use "task".l  7  Because DECNET task can use PROXY, where allows accessr* from authorized source *without* password.;  Then a user can "momentarily" login to the "database" nodem" with simple command, "like SPAWN".  G +Alternately why don't the users log directly into this machine rather e  +than the other cluster members.    Probably because: [...] D > runs a very expensive database application that we can't afford to > cluster license. [...]  ; ...also mean: "and will not load the busy system with task p9 like MAIL, (especially from INFO-VAX), text edition etc."p  -:)    Regards - Gotfryd   --E =====================================================================hF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEe. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:19:27 -0700 9 From: Heikki Kaskelma <kasheiNOkaSPAM@mas-oy.com.invalid>nP Subject: Re: Transparent login to another cluster node using DECnet Task-to-Task9 Message-ID: <1b206e44.43c552f9@usw-ex0105-037.remarq.com>   ' See FASTLOGIN on the VMS Freeware CD 1.n  / With it you can automatically log on to anotheri0 VMS and execute a command (or @smthng.com) there- and return back to the original VMS, all this6 transparently to the user.   Heikki Kaskelmai    ; -----------------------------------------------------------@  7 Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.  Up to 100 minutes free!u http://www.keen.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:57:10 -0400u* From: David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?- Message-ID: <395BF066.95BF603B@tsoft-inc.com>    Chris Scheers wrote: >  > David A Froble wrote:p > >i > > Chris Scheers wrote: > > N > > > But if you go into a company that does not currently have a VMS presenceK > > > and try to sell them on a VMS based product, they will generally showEE > > > you the door the moment that you tell them they have to buy new  > > > hardware.o > >pS > > So what type of products are we talking about here?  Nickle and dime stuff?  MytP > > experiences have been that for any significant software product the requiredR > > hardware is obtained.  Except for add-ons, like defrag utilities and such, theQ > > hardware is usually not an issue.  Even if it's PC type software, and all PCstS > > are already in use, more are bought for the new product.  This argument doesn't  > > make any sense to me.  > J > It's not necessarilly nickel and dime stuff.  I'm talking about stuff upI > to a few thousand dollars.  For argument, let's say anything that costso, > less than the hardware required to run it. > G > I'm also talking about smaller companies, say with up to a half dozen) > machines.: > F > Unless the software is absolutely vital to the core of the business,G > these companies generally will not go out and buy hardware to run theFG > software.  They will definitely not buy hardware just to evaulate thef > software.t  H Not too many well run companies buy stuff they don't need.  In general. P Sometimes they just don't yet know that they need it.  Now that a forklift is noO longer needed to move a system running VMS, and the ready availability of olderaM systems, I don't have a problem loaning a small system to someone to evaluatedD some software.  There have always been methods for demoing software.  E > Yes, if the decision has already been made to use the software, theoH > hardware will be obtained.  (Deciding to obtain the hardware is a part' > of the decision to use the software.)m > B > But how do you get a decision to use the software when you can'tI > evaluate the software inhouse because you don't have hardware to run itr > on?,  M As I said above, there have always been methods.  It's true that today peopleaG are more used to having the system on-site, but there are alternatives.t  I > And having to obtain hardware to run the software effectively increasespH > the cost of the software, making it more likely that the decision will" > be made NOT to use the software.  O If the software is worth the price, then the money will be found.  If it's not,h then what's the issue?   > Does this make more sense?  N What you're saying makes sense.  However, the solution you are proposing is inN my honest opinion a dead end money pit losing proposition that has a very realJ chance of removing VMS from any but the largest shops, and even killing itN there.  Suppose that VMS was implemented on Intel processors, and that someoneL got some VMS based product they wanted to try.  Also, suppose they put it onK some unreliable hardware that didn't choke too often on windoz, but dies on O VMS.  What will their opinion then be about VMS?  Such hardware exists in greatu- quantity.  Do you really want this nightmare?l  P Even Microsoft is now qualifying hardware and drivers for W2K.  They know what's
 killing them.-  J The solution for affordable VMS at the low end is to use the usually solidJ hardware it currently runs on, and make some adjustments to allow it to beL competitive at the low end.  Again, I truly feel that an Intel port is a bad> idea, and that the money and effort is better spent elsewhere.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:34:32 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>u Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?H Message-ID: <y4hfabwavr.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 Glen Martin <GLENMARK@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> writes:o  K > A VMS bigot who has been swamped with NT/Exchange admin duties of late...aH > (Whatever idiot within the bowels of Redmond who decided that it was aJ > good idea to have EVERYBODY'S mailbox in a SINGLE DATABASE should, IMHO,6 > have evil things done to him. But I'm not bitter...)  " So why didn't you go for OpenMail?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:35:39 -0500l% From: Chris Scheers <asi@airmail.net>b Subject: Re: VAX on Intel?O Message-ID: <8B47FE48C168741D.48426D2522CCE2B4.FEDBB16E940A9A0C@lp.airnews.net>h   David A Froble wrote:M >  > Chris Scheers wrote:  K > > And having to obtain hardware to run the software effectively increasesNJ > > the cost of the software, making it more likely that the decision will$ > > be made NOT to use the software. > Q > If the software is worth the price, then the money will be found.  If it's not,) > then what's the issue?  G The issue is that having to buy additional hardware to run the softwarebG effectively raises the price of the software.  This can raise the pricedC of the software to the point where it may not be "worth the price",9G especially since we are talking about hardware that costs more than the 	 software!B  H This can give your software developer a very strong incentive to developD for "commodity" platforms instead of VMS.  (I admit that I am biased" here.  I am a software developer.)    t > > Does this make more sense? > P > What you're saying makes sense.  However, the solution you are proposing is inP > my honest opinion a dead end money pit losing proposition that has a very realL > chance of removing VMS from any but the largest shops, and even killing itP > there.  Suppose that VMS was implemented on Intel processors, and that someoneN > got some VMS based product they wanted to try.  Also, suppose they put it onM > some unreliable hardware that didn't choke too often on windoz, but dies onjQ > VMS.  What will their opinion then be about VMS?  Such hardware exists in great./ > quantity.  Do you really want this nightmare?e > R > Even Microsoft is now qualifying hardware and drivers for W2K.  They know what's > killing them.p > L > The solution for affordable VMS at the low end is to use the usually solidL > hardware it currently runs on, and make some adjustments to allow it to beN > competitive at the low end.  Again, I truly feel that an Intel port is a bad@ > idea, and that the money and effort is better spent elsewhere.    E Much as I dislike the design of PC platforms, I have to say that they F have gotten much more reliable over the years.  I don't think that the0 problem is the hardware as much as the software.  G Most Windows code is an example of what I call "optimistic coding":  IteD assumes that there won't be any problems.  When a problem occurs, it goes belly up.  F VMS is an example of "pessimistic coding":  It assumes that everythingB can go wrong.  As a result, when errors happen, they are much moreC likely to be handled and not be catastrophic.  (Yes, the results inrG lower performance in benchmarks, but most machines have more horsepowerpH than is needed anyways.  And what is the performance impact of a machine' that runs blindingly fast into a BSOD?)o  E I suggest that a VMS port to IAx hardware could be MORE reliable than  Windows on the same hardware.   H (Cynic that I am, I suspect that Microsoft's "qualification" of hardwareD for W2K consists of ensuring that the hardware never reports errors, whether they happen or not.)  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------p$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  G 817-237-3360 (Voice)    817-237-3074 (Fax)    Internet: asi@airmail.nett   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:15:33 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)J Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 Include VMSINSTAL Installation History ?( Message-ID: <pOX65.1008$5L3.5272@insync>  3 Hoff Hoffman (hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam) wrote:  : A :   I checked in the necessary changes to create and maintain the A :   VMSINSTAL.HISTORY file into VMSINSTAL.COM a couple of months tE :   back.  I expect to see this change first ship out in the OpenVMS d :   VAX 7.3 SDK/EFT1 kits. : N :  --------------------------- pure personal opinion -------------------------N :    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com :     
 Thanks, Hoff.f  / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net ;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalids2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.363 ************************