1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 11 Sep 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 509       Contents:, Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM explanation anyone?, Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM explanation anyone? Re: 164LX and VMS  Re: aircraft are not Sun. Re: Barrel rolls, was Re: aircraft are not Sun. Re: Barrel rolls, was Re: aircraft are not Sun Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale RE: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: Big AlphaServer Sale Re: CHARON-VAX images? Re: CHARON-VAX images? Re: CHARON-VAX images? Re: CHARON-VAX images? Export DECterm  FindFirstFileChange Notification internet business + Re: Jupiter (was Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)  Re: LAT printer servers? RE: LAT printer servers? Re: LAT printer servers?  MOP protocol over VPN / firewall( Re: NCL - detached process communication( Re: NCL - detached process communication> Re: OpenVMS and USB (wasRe: Off-Topic: DS10 Hardware question)> Re: OpenVMS and USB (wasRe: Off-Topic: DS10 Hardware question); Re: Replace licenses for VAXcluster for Education/Research? % Re[4]: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OT ) Re: Re[4]: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OT 0 SCSI controller's for use with PC 164LX and OVMS! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! RE: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persist " Re: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OT Re: TT_ACCPORNAM for IP address % Re: Why I hate C on VMS, reason #9321  Re: Xwindows tcpip  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 12:19:44 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 5 Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM explanation anyone? H Message-ID: <y466o3z0vz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:   J > A buffer object is a double mapping of process address space with systemK > address space. [...] The SYSGEN parameter places a restriction upon how m % > any buffer object can be created.     L Which is there, presumably, because such pages/buffer objects must be locked
 in memory.  N If, indeed, they were introduced in V5.4, and then used massively in the laterM versions for fast I/O, it seems strange to read those reports that they often + aren't released properly on image run-down.   L Shouldn't the mailbox driver (e.g., when used in DCL to transfer informationM to a SPAWNed process) also be able to use BOs (properly aligned buffers etc.,  of course)?    	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:59:30 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 5 Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM explanation anyone? 0 Message-ID: <009EFF57.0F1F1673@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <y466o3z0vz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:@ >system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > K >> A buffer object is a double mapping of process address space with system L >> address space. [...] The SYSGEN parameter places a restriction upon how m& >> any buffer object can be created.   > M >Which is there, presumably, because such pages/buffer objects must be locked  >in memory.   K Correct.  The pages are locked down and memory, especially physical memory, K is a finite resource.  If you're the sole user of a wildfire box, you might % not be so concerned about the finite.   O >If, indeed, they were introduced in V5.4, and then used massively in the later N >versions for fast I/O, it seems strange to read those reports that they often, >aren't released properly on image run-down. > M >Shouldn't the mailbox driver (e.g., when used in DCL to transfer information N >to a SPAWNed process) also be able to use BOs (properly aligned buffers etc., >of course)? >  >	Jan   L Data in a mailbox might need to or can outlive the process(es) communicating7 with it.  It's probably better to keep it buffered I/O.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:54:37 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: 164LX and VMS+ Message-ID: <8pirrd$5je$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>   F Hmmm.  I'd say the license isn't valid for that system, as it is not aF supported platform.  The license check itself doesn't look at a systemI serial number, rather it presupposes that you are using a legal platform, L and checks that you have enough license units for it.  The fact someone tookH your money for a unsupported platform...  I don't know what to tell you.K The only license I would pay for on this box is the free one - the Hobbyest  license.  J Why is this system hit-or-miss?  Well, VMS never made the system work.  WeL had one up here that we were going to look at when we had the chance, and itK did have some problem with some device that was never tracked down.  The LX K box was designed as a "reference" platform for designing NT and Linux boxes  by OEMs.       Dan Allen wrote in message ... > / > As Artie Johnson might say "Very interesting"  > J > I personally purchased a 164LX based system frtom Hard Hat AND a VMS 7.2 baseI > license for said hardware.  Now whether or not such a combination is in  factG > supported by Compaq is rather moot from my point of view as I did not  require L > a OS support contract.  HOWEVER, it certainly works - no crashes - and I'm a veryI > happy VMS camper. In fact, I always thought that VMS base licenses (and  SIPs) K > were associated with a specific CPU and were not transferable (unless you  wantedL > to get really bitchy with DEC ;-).  So what is the status of my bought and paid forE > VMS license?  Also what's so "hit-or-miss" about the configuration?  >  > C >In article <8p8fiq$1vii$1@news.aha.ru>, "pbc" <pbc@aha.ru> writes: 6 >:I pesonally installed OpenVMS 7.2 on several 164LXs.
 >:Works fine.  > ! >  Good for you, glad to hear it.  > J >  The 164LX box itself is fairly close to certain members of the PersonalH >  Workstation series, and -- like the Personal Workstation -a series --J >  whether or not OpenVMS might work on it is hit-or-miss.  OpenVMS has NOJ >  code to support the 164LX and has not tested with it.  OpenVMS does NOT& >  support the widget, in other words. > D >  I've also heard that OpenVMS can bootstrap on the Alpha ProcessorH >  AlphaPC 264DP series.  Like the 164LX, OpenVMS has NO code to supportI >  the 264DP and has not tested with it, and OpenVMS does NOT support it.  > J >  There are also no OpenVMS licenses available for either of these boxes,& >  other than the hobbyist licenses... > + > --------------------------- pure personal # opinion --------------------------- 0 >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:07:39 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> ! Subject: Re: aircraft are not Sun H Message-ID: <y4zolfxk3o.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  , David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  N > And, while my memory isn't real sharp on this subject, I believe Tex Johnson > looped the 707 or 747.  M If I remember the story correctly, it was the 707, and he barrel-rolled it on J the first demonstration flight for paying customers. It is said the CEO of1 Beoing was particularly undelighted at the sight.   N The China Air (IIRC) 747 that had an egine flame-out while flying particularlyI close to coffin's corner first did a 180 degree roll and then a 74 degree L decent. I read the air frame was slightly bent after that (to say nothing ofK the gear the auto-deplyed and made nice holes in the control surfaces), but N they made it safely to SF. Anyone know whether somewhere on the web there's an image of it immediately after?   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:41:00 GMT 4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>7 Subject: Re: Barrel rolls, was Re: aircraft are not Sun C Message-ID: <Mh5v5.2689$zC.152724@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   F Take a look at this link - it was in a message earlier in this thread.  F There's an interview at with another test pilot of that era, Al Jones:    L http://www.microsoft.com/Games/COMBATFS/BEHIND_THE_SCENES_PILOT_INTERVIEW.HT M #   Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator      --	 Mike Ober   8 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com.nospam> wrote in message* news:39BBB132.3A407A4F@wi.rr.com.nospam... > All: > ; > As long as we're on the subject, how does one do a barrel C > roll with a large jet?  If the wings provide lift during "normal" @ > flight, wouldn't the force on the wings during inverted flight" > push the plane toward the earth? > ? > I need to know the details so I can try this with the big jet   > in Flight Simulator 2000.  ;^) >  > -Scott Vieth >  > Jerry Leslie wrote:  > 5 > > Richard B. Gilbert (DRAGON@compuserve.com) wrote: H > > : ISTR he was fired for it too!!!  But there are things a man has to > > : do. . . . :-)  > > :  > > L > > I don't think so. IIRC, he was just told NOT to do that again, accordingL > > to the episode of "Wings". One source credits the rolling of the Dash-80? > > jet for getting the USAF to order the KC-135 version. From:  >  > [snip] >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:50:44 -0400 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> 7 Subject: Re: Barrel rolls, was Re: aircraft are not Sun + Message-ID: <39BCFF54.C63576F7@hsc.vcu.edu>   l you just gotta keep that nose "up", and it will fly... i used to be a pilot, and yes it will fly thataway...  ) no, i didn't ever do that...  too chicken    hg/jb wrote: >  > Scott Vieth wrote: > > hg/jb wrote:I > > > seriously, do you think the wings only provide lift on one surface? 	 > > > bob P > > Seriously, what I know about lift comes from watching the Discovery channel.M > > What makes planes fly?  The path that the air going over the *top* of the L > > wing takes is longer than the path that the air going under the *bottom* > > of the wing takes. > > I > > The air pressure on top of the wing is lower then the air pressure on N > > the bottom of the wing and those little force arrows push up on the bottom > > of the wing. > > K > > If you turn a wing over, the long path is now on the bottom of the wing O > > and the lower pressure would also be on the bottom of the wing.  The little E > > force arrows would seem to be pushing the wings toward the earth.  > > M > > Long periods of inverted flight would seem to be impossible yet I've seen  > > it done on TV. > > T > > Ok, you c.o.v. pilots, I'm ready for a crash course (pun intended) on the forces > > that keep a plane E > > in the air.  And, yes, I've read the Flight Sim 2000 manual.  ;^)  > >  > > -Scott :^) > Scott,G > I do not know what happens to the aerodynamics of the aircraft if you J > flip the wing over, I just imagine there is air pressure and aerodynamicF > forces that would have some interactive effect with the wing's lower= > surface (formerly the top surface) and maybe make it fly...  > bob 8}   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:51:10 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale * Message-ID: <39BC9CFD.B62AFA53@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  q > In article <39B8C6E7.5E098EC0@uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >  > >> > Andrew, > >> > > >> > We agree on something ! > >> >M > >> > >>> But either way its bad news. Like it or not both OpenVMS and Tru64 	 > >> need Q > >> > each other because although they are different OS's they share the same HW I > >> > platform and some applications. If say Tru64 was to dissappear the  > >> economicsQ > >> > of OpenVMS production for Compaq would suffer because all the platform R&D @ > >> > would need to be financed out of OpenVMS contribution.>>> > >> >O > >> > Absolutely. Which is why the recent sale of 375 GS320 systems to the DOE L > >> > (approx 12,000 Alpha cpu's) and other recent Alpha supercomputer winsE > >> > (against the best of the others) is also important to OpenVMS.  > >> > > >>N > >> Yeah, add in the 100 Marvel systems to the French and you're beginning to5 > >> see some serious revenue accrue to the GS-Series  > > N > > I really hope youe arn't a Compaq stock holder because I doubt that Compaq/ > > can afford too many of these kinds of deal.  > > L > > The DOE deal is worth 200 million dollars and requires Compaq to deliverQ > > 375 fully configured WildFire servers and 600 TB of storage. But at list this M > > configuration would according to the TPC-C unit pricing cost 1.45 billion  > > dollars. > > N > > Akkkkkkkkkkkkk do Compaq still make money on kit that they are discountingQ > > by more than 80%. Perhaps they are hoping to sting DOE for the service costs.  > >  > K >         Nice of Compaq to give away over a billion dollars to get a sale.  > D >         Perhaps you made a mistake somewhere.  Nah.... not Andrew. > % >                                 Rob   . Coming from you Rob the suggestion that I made0 a mistake has to be a mistake doesn't it. Now if. you had said I agree with Andrew he is right I. would have been worried because you would then, really have been questioning the accuracy of my posting.   0 eB/Sp/Gal/264/Wild should we add Mar to the list% well only time will tell :):):):):):)      Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:02:38 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale * Message-ID: <39BC9FAE.30CE8FE7@uk.sun.com>  9 "Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515" wrote:   . > In article <8pavs5$p4c@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,> >         mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > [...] O > > I just fired up the Alpha Configuration utility (from May,2000) and came up I > > with list prices for the 4 CPU, 1000 Mb RAM, 1600 GB disk GS320 6/731 I > > Tru64, 2 ethernet, 1 tape, SCSI disks. systems of 852,000 and 967,000 P > > dollars.  (That's just a guess as to the systems they might have purchased.)L > > Anyway, that makes the discount from list somewhere between 36% and 43%.B > > (If they went with slower systems the discount would have been > > correspondingly lower.)  > J >         That's an  entirely  reasonable  discount.   Current EducationalJ >     discount (for systems, not necessarily various options) is 38%.  I'd. >     expect the GSA schedule to be similar... >   I It would be except that the 200 million dollar deal was for 375  x 32 CPU C GS320's each with 1.6 TB of storage. They arn't 4 CPU machines, the 2 DOE are getting 12000 CPU's for their 200 million.  H Nor are they the current 731 Mhz CPU's, the DOE will be getting 1250 Mhz CPU's for their money.  = Given this the actual discount is over 80% this was very good < negociation on the DOE's part and you have to hand it to the> Compaq Sales team, who must have done a great internal sellingD job to get their senior management to buy into this sort of discountD levels. With the added risks associated with having to provide CPU's" that arn't in volume shipment yet.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:04:42 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>N! Subject: RE: Big AlphaServer Sale J Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D80528479B@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   Andrew, Andrew ...  J Since you have no idea on how current or future pricing of this particularJ win with Alpha and storage was in fact put together, please do not degradeK this thread into a exercise in mental gymnastics by bringing up TPC pricingSJ numbers which is a totally different model than what the DOE are planning.  G TPC numbers are based on list prices for current technology used in theNL benchmark - it does not take into account volume pricing or pricing based on future technologies.  I And please don't try and insuate that other vendors were not bending overQI backwards with their volume and future technology pricing on this deal as  well.   K It was a great win and a statement of future technology support for Alpha. c   Plain and simple.   L However, I do understand that you need to have some spin on this, so keep on spinning ..    :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadae Professional ServicesV Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.com        -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyP! [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]p( Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:03 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Salee    9 "Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515" wrote:   . > In article <8pavs5$p4c@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,> >         mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > [...]mL > > I just fired up the Alpha Configuration utility (from May,2000) and came upI > > with list prices for the 4 CPU, 1000 Mb RAM, 1600 GB disk GS320 6/731eI > > Tru64, 2 ethernet, 1 tape, SCSI disks. systems of 852,000 and 967,000uD > > dollars.  (That's just a guess as to the systems they might have purchased.)pL > > Anyway, that makes the discount from list somewhere between 36% and 43%.B > > (If they went with slower systems the discount would have been > > correspondingly lower.)C > J >         That's an  entirely  reasonable  discount.   Current EducationalJ >     discount (for systems, not necessarily various options) is 38%.  I'd. >     expect the GSA schedule to be similar... >u  I It would be except that the 200 million dollar deal was for 375  x 32 CPUeC GS320's each with 1.6 TB of storage. They arn't 4 CPU machines, the>2 DOE are getting 12000 CPU's for their 200 million.  H Nor are they the current 731 Mhz CPU's, the DOE will be getting 1250 Mhz CPU's for their money.  = Given this the actual discount is over 80% this was very good < negociation on the DOE's part and you have to hand it to the> Compaq Sales team, who must have done a great internal sellingD job to get their senior management to buy into this sort of discountD levels. With the added risks associated with having to provide CPU's" that arn't in volume shipment yet.   Regardsa Andrew Harrisonm Enterprise IT Architect'   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:32:30 +0100SB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale-* Message-ID: <39BCDEED.132E3061@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:   > Andrew, Andrew ... > L > Since you have no idea on how current or future pricing of this particularL > win with Alpha and storage was in fact put together, please do not degradeM > this thread into a exercise in mental gymnastics by bringing up TPC pricing@L > numbers which is a totally different model than what the DOE are planning.  I > TPC numbers are based on list prices for current technology used in themN > benchmark - it does not take into account volume pricing or pricing based on > future technologies. >t  I Kerry are you trying to suggest that Compaq routinely gives 80%+ discountpC for volume purchases on Alphaservers.  You do remember the Sun onlyoD sold all those machines because they give much bigger discounts than6 Digital/Compaq lie don't you. Now 80%+ is routine wow.  C The customer I work for has more Sun's in terms of revenue than theiL DOE deal (they didn't however do it in one year) they would be very suprisedG to discover that discounts of greater than 80%  were available from anys% other vendor for this sort of volume.e   >nK > And please don't try and insuate that other vendors were not bending overoK > backwards with their volume and future technology pricing on this deal asr > well.d >f  > I am sure everyone else bent over backwards as well but Compaq? won and you won at a price. This was a great deal for DOE it iss> much less clear how it will pay from Compaqs standpoint except as a much needed PR boost.   Regards  Andrew Harrison( Enterprise IT Architecti   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:28:59 GMTh  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale48 Message-ID: <08uprs0mvvpt1i7egedjldbqn0tfhnifnm@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:55 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyd! <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:n  K >I really hope youe arn't a Compaq stock holder because I doubt that Compaqe, >can afford too many of these kinds of deal. > [snip... more drivel]p  D Look Andrew, you've been called to the floor many times for speaking/ about that which you know nothing.  Get a clue!   F You can't read media accounts of things and understand all there is toC know.  Trust that Compaq is making money, and if not, then you haveb, something hard and fast to prove your point.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxx in my address to e-mail)w   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:40:23 +0100eB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale * Message-ID: <39BCFCE6.B8BFC494@uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:  G > On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:55 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1# > <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:a >SM > >I really hope youe arn't a Compaq stock holder because I doubt that Compaq . > >can afford too many of these kinds of deal. > > [snip... more drivel]  >iF > Look Andrew, you've been called to the floor many times for speaking1 > about that which you know nothing.  Get a clue!  >f  ( Have I really how very very interesting.   > H > You can't read media accounts of things and understand all there is toE > know.  Trust that Compaq is making money, and if not, then you havet. > something hard and fast to prove your point. >?  6 So is the announcement on Compaqs web site incorrect ?  7 I know you can't necessarely trust news reports but you@6 would have thought that you could trust one of the two people who signed the deal.e  , The Compaq WEB site states that the deal for- 375 GS320's with 12000 CPU's in total runninga+ at 1250 Mhz +600 TB of storage is worth 200r million dollars.  - I very much doubt that Compaq is lying do youo or do you dispute this.o  . Someone has allready posted a list pricing for* a 4 CPU GS320 of ~900,000 dollars and this. would mean that Compaq were discounting by 38% of the current list price.  2 Incedentally the TPC-C pages are a very good place4 to get systems pricing from because they are audited3 and because vendors have under TPC-C rules to quotee valid pricing.  6 I suggest that instead of insulting me you just go and, read what Compaq have to say about the deal.       Regardst Andrew Harrisonl Enterprise IT Architect-   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 12:44:30 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)i! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale * Message-ID: <8pj25e$833$1@lisa.gemair.com>  * In article <39BCFCE6.B8BFC494@uk.sun.com>,D Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:
 >jlsue wrote:o >uH >> On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:55 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy$ >> <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >>N >> >I really hope youe arn't a Compaq stock holder because I doubt that Compaq/ >> >can afford too many of these kinds of deal.m >> > [snip... more drivel] >>G >> Look Andrew, you've been called to the floor many times for speakingp2 >> about that which you know nothing.  Get a clue! >> >a) >Have I really how very very interesting.  >   A Sure you have, but you ignore those posts and change the subject.s  > Here's a short list of incidents where you've been shown to be" lying or, charitably, misinformed:  5 	* You stated flatly that the Sun E10K Cache problemst4 	  were repaired MONTHS ago.  Rob was able to dig up  	  your own words on this one.    6 	* You have been clearly suggesting that the problems 5 	  with the E10K Cache are due to static discharge.  -7 	  You should tell Sun Executive VP Shoemaker this, so  1 	  he doesn't get caught making such embarrassinga2 	  statements as (from the article that you allude- 	  to but never give the URL because it's toos 	  embarrassing to Sun):  2 	    According to Shoemaker, Sun hasn't been able 1 	    to narrow the problem   to any one specific  6 	    cause. Sun believes the problems may have been   3 	    caused by a combination of factors, including _9 	    defective components   from one of Sun's suppliers,  8 	    poor packaging of the memory chips on   the system ( 	    boards, and environmental factors.    	  Oh, that URL is:.  G http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/00/08/25/000825hnsunmemory.xml   6 	  In fact, from reading this quote and the associated8 	  article, it's suggested that Sun still doesn't really6 	  know what the problems are, but most of the reasons5 	  stated by Sun Executive VP Shoemaker above are all 4 	  slipshod engineering on the part of Sun.  He even2 	  states, quite clearly, that before recently Sun0 	  was at the "back of the class" with regard to6 	  quality processes.  So, all these years when you've5 	  been saying that Sun Enterprise Servers were among 2 	  the highest quality you can buy, the facts were3 	  (according to a Sun VP) that Sun had some of the.1 	  worst quality processes in the industry.  With 3 	  this new insight into Sun, it makes us wonder at 5 	  their repeated claims of innocence in all the eBay-2 	  failures, especially in light of the NDAs that 0 	  gag customers whenever Sun's quality problems# 	  threaten to become widely known.   1 	* You stated flat out that the Sun SIMS product  3 	  contained no code from the Innosoft product that./ 	  Sun found they had to buy up.  A lie.  Your a/ 	  handlers in Sun (a Sun Product Manager) had  2 	  to come into comp.os.vms to correct the record % 	  clean up the mess you were making.      >>I >> You can't read media accounts of things and understand all there is towF >> know.  Trust that Compaq is making money, and if not, then you have/ >> something hard and fast to prove your point.* >> > 7 >So is the announcement on Compaqs web site incorrect ?  >n8 >I know you can't necessarely trust news reports but you7 >would have thought that you could trust one of the twor >people who signed the deal. > - >The Compaq WEB site states that the deal forh. >375 GS320's with 12000 CPU's in total running, >at 1250 Mhz +600 TB of storage is worth 200 >million dollars.  >n. >I very much doubt that Compaq is lying do you >or do you dispute this. > / >Someone has allready posted a list pricing for + >a 4 CPU GS320 of ~900,000 dollars and this / >would mean that Compaq were discounting by 38%' >of the current list price.   / 38% off of list?  That's not at all unusual fora such volume purchases. o  - I wonder why the financial details of eBay's a/ purchase of more E10Ks and other Sun Enterprisea+ technology have remained secret?  Hmmmm....   M http://www.sunworld.com/sunworldonline/swol-05-2000/f_swol-05-sunspots.html#1w  . Probably rather embarrassing to Sun what they + had to do for poor eBay to make up for all n the mess...e   >t3 >Incedentally the TPC-C pages are a very good placec5 >to get systems pricing from because they are audited-4 >and because vendors have under TPC-C rules to quote >valid pricing.w >r7 >I suggest that instead of insulting me you just go andc- >read what Compaq have to say about the deal.9 >.  0 And I suggest that instead of jeering at us poor0 deluded Compaq customers that you concentrate on2 some Sun customers.  Surely, there are some people, in comp.sys.sun or comp.os.solaris that can  benefit from your brilliance.    >  >s >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect >s >i >i   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:02:09 +0100aB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>! Subject: Re: Big AlphaServer Sale>* Message-ID: <39BD1010.5E6ACB7D@uk.sun.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:r  , > In article <39BCFCE6.B8BFC494@uk.sun.com>,F > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: > >jlsue wrote:G > >sJ > >> On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:55 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy& > >> <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: > >>P > >> >I really hope youe arn't a Compaq stock holder because I doubt that Compaq1 > >> >can afford too many of these kinds of deal.n > >> > [snip... more drivel] > >>I > >> Look Andrew, you've been called to the floor many times for speakingc4 > >> about that which you know nothing.  Get a clue! > >> > >t+ > >Have I really how very very interesting.i > >t >0C > Sure you have, but you ignore those posts and change the subject.g >d@ > Here's a short list of incidents where you've been shown to be$ > lying or, charitably, misinformed: >u> >         * You stated flatly that the Sun E10K Cache problems= >           were repaired MONTHS ago.  Rob was able to dig upi' >           your own words on this one.e >p  A Nice try but what I said at the time was correct, Sun changed the ' part and used another e-cache supplier.s   >e> >         * You have been clearly suggesting that the problems< >           with the E10K Cache are due to static discharge.? >           You should tell Sun Executive VP Shoemaker this, soa: >           he doesn't get caught making such embarrassing; >           statements as (from the article that you allude 6 >           to but never give the URL because it's too! >           embarrassing to Sun):d >o  ; No I have not, I have said that the vast majority of ecache:8 failures are caused by static. One reason why we changed= the part was to introduce one that was less static sensitive.1   >3: >             According to Shoemaker, Sun hasn't been able9 >             to narrow the problem   to any one specificg< >             cause. Sun believes the problems may have been; >             caused by a combination of factors, includingpA >             defective components   from one of Sun's suppliers,D@ >             poor packaging of the memory chips on   the system0 >             boards, and environmental factors. >i  E Correct but the vast majority of failures have been caused by static, = changing the environment for example has a huge effect on the6< failure rate and this was reported in the origional article.   > >>K > >> You can't read media accounts of things and understand all there is toeH > >> know.  Trust that Compaq is making money, and if not, then you have1 > >> something hard and fast to prove your point.  > >> > >s9 > >So is the announcement on Compaqs web site incorrect ?  > > : > >I know you can't necessarely trust news reports but you9 > >would have thought that you could trust one of the two  > >people who signed the deal. > >i/ > >The Compaq WEB site states that the deal for 0 > >375 GS320's with 12000 CPU's in total running. > >at 1250 Mhz +600 TB of storage is worth 200 > >million dollars.  > >h0 > >I very much doubt that Compaq is lying do you > >or do you dispute this. > >e1 > >Someone has allready posted a list pricing fori- > >a 4 CPU GS320 of ~900,000 dollars and this 1 > >would mean that Compaq were discounting by 38%w > >of the current list price.n >s1 > 38% off of list?  That's not at all unusual forn > such volume purchases. >e  4 Do you have some really major comprehension problem.6 The person who quoted a price for a GS320 did it for a/ 4 CPU machine and Compaq would have been giving-2 the DOE 38% discount if all 375 machines contained0 only 4 CPU's. But each machine contains 32 CPU's7 so the actual discount is well over 80%. 375 * 4 = 1500g1 which is only 10500 CPU's short of the 12000 thate the DOE system requires.  9 And TPC-C is a very good place to get list prices becauser% they have to be audited and accurate.A   Regardso Andrew Harrisonp Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 06:33:34 +0000 (UTC)c' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>t Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX images?n, Message-ID: <8phubu$5gf$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  . Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote:  > > uVAX were good boxes in their day but that is well past now.  I VAX can run VMS in 8 MB of RAM and 50 MB of disk with windowing software.eN Alpha needs much more space.                                               /OK   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:00:14 +0100n- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>  Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX images? ( Message-ID: <39BCBB3E.FEBEC8A@bbc.co.uk>   Osmo Kujala wrote:  0 > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote: >p@ > > uVAX were good boxes in their day but that is well past now. >-K > VAX can run VMS in 8 MB of RAM and 50 MB of disk with windowing software.rP > Alpha needs much more space.                                               /OK  I Sure, I know that. Today 50 gig disks are available. What's your problem?BI Anyway, VMS on 50 megs is a bit tight if I remember right. And DeCWindows"5 in 8 meg always gave me plenty of time to get coffee.u     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukf  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofh MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:41:35 +0000 (UTC)t' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>  Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX images?n, Message-ID: <8pijtv$iee$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  . Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote: > Osmo Kujala wrote:1 >> Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote:tA >> > uVAX were good boxes in their day but that is well past now.(L >> VAX can run VMS in 8 MB of RAM and 50 MB of disk with windowing software.M >> Alpha needs much more space.                                              lK > Sure, I know that. Today 50 gig disks are available. What's your problem?'  G No problem. All I want to say is that there are reasons why someone may H like VAX kept alive. For example it's easier to put 50 MB system disk inH RAMDISK than 1 giga, or take backups to slow and low capacity devices...  K > Anyway, VMS on 50 megs is a bit tight if I remember right. And DeCWindows 7 > in 8 meg always gave me plenty of time to get coffee.l  G Right, but I didn't say DECwindows. :-)                             /OK    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:38:32 +0100a- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>w Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX images?c) Message-ID: <39BCE057.27981356@bbc.co.uk>e   Osmo Kujala wrote:  0 > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote: > > Osmo Kujala wrote:3 > >> Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote: C > >> > uVAX were good boxes in their day but that is well past now.nN > >> VAX can run VMS in 8 MB of RAM and 50 MB of disk with windowing software.! > >> Alpha needs much more space.oM > > Sure, I know that. Today 50 gig disks are available. What's your problem?c > I > No problem. All I want to say is that there are reasons why someone maylJ > like VAX kept alive. For example it's easier to put 50 MB system disk inJ > RAMDISK than 1 giga, or take backups to slow and low capacity devices... >   E Hmmm, MicroVAX II had max memory of what 16 MByte, even the VS 3100'seJ were limited to 32. Try putting a 50 meg RAMdisk on one of those. Sure, if you're6 talking TK50 backups, the smaller the disk the better.  I  I declare peace in this thread :-) Just give me an AS1000A anyday over at MicroVAX II.   >pM > > Anyway, VMS on 50 megs is a bit tight if I remember right. And DeCWindowsS9 > > in 8 meg always gave me plenty of time to get coffee.o >eI > Right, but I didn't say DECwindows. :-)                             /OKs   I know you meant VWS.e     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uku  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofv MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:56:11 +0800t# From: laukk <laukk@cyberway.com.sg>  Subject: Export DECterma/ Message-ID: <39BD0EAB.4A06AE85@cyberway.com.sg>    Hi,dE  I need to launch a DECterm from a VMS system onto a VXT terminal.- The-E DECterm is required to run some DCL commands automatically once it is.A launched onto the VXT terminal and return to VMS prompt after the1< commands are executed . I have tried the following command :  4  $set display/create/node=xx.xx.xx.xx/trans=tcpip'  $create/term/detach/input=input.comy  E The DECterm exit immediately after those DCL commands contains in the  input.com file was executed.  B What can be done to make the DECterm to return to VMS prompt after execution of the DCL commands?  6 The system is a Alpha 4100 running with openVMS 7.1-2.   Thanks.d John Lau   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:30:23 GMTa4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>) Subject: FindFirstFileChange NotificationiC Message-ID: <P75v5.2669$zC.152574@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>a  C Is there a setting in the smb.conf file that will allow the WindowseJ FindFirstFileChange/FindNextFileChange notification functions to work with Samba?   -- Thanks,:	 Mike Oberp   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:18:56 -0500  From: MARKBECKER@prodigy.net Subject: internet business5 Message-ID: <000901c01c04$7265e060$1a000003@computer>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C01BD9.B13270E0r Content-Type: text/plain;f 	charset="iso-8859-1"r+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablel    J Do you want to be your own boss?  This established internet business has =F no joiming fee and a 97% success rate of those who stick with it!! =20 =20'* http://www.rags2riches.com/donotaddht.html =20l =20e MARKBECKER@prodigy.net  + ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C01BD9.B13270E0u Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"o+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   0 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>  0 <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =A http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =t
 HTML//EN">8 <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD>1 <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>l@ <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Do you want to be your own = boss?&nbsp; This=20oI established internet business has no joiming fee and a 97% success rate =0 of those=20 ' who stick with it!!&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>t7 <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>e <DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20dJ href=3D"http://www.rags2riches.com/donotaddht.html">http://www.rags2riche=& s.com/donotaddht.html</A></FONT></DIV>' <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>o' <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> E <DIV><FONT size=3D2>MARKBECKER@prodigy.net</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>n  - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C01BD9.B13270E0---   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:38:15 -05003 From: rivie@server.newlogan.teraglobal (Roger Ivie)S4 Subject: Re: Jupiter (was Re: Q: Why not (2^n)-bit?)= Message-ID: <slrn8rpv6k.qna.rivie@server.newlogan.teraglobal>   D In article <8pfpmi$4s1$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:1 >In article <39BA5626.BB6FD87C@bellatlantic.net>,S* >   hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote:% >>Cache was four way set associative.a >tF >I remember this magic incantation.  I have no idea what it means :-).
 >Explanation?n  1 This means that any given main memory address may D be present in any of four lines of the cache. In a "normal" (one-wayC set associative?) cache, each memory address may be in one and onlyy? one place in the cache. So if you access a memory location that C happens to be mapped by the same location in the cache as somethingn? else you're interested in, that something else has to be tossede? out to make room for it. With a four-way set associative cache,w? that doesn't have to happen (unless you're touching five thingsd6 that all happen to map to the same cache location...). -- t
 Roger Ivie% TeraGlobal Communications Corporationt& 1770 North Research Park Way Suite 100 Logan, UT 84341e mailto:rivie@teraglobal.com' phoneto:(435)787-0555h faxto:(435)787-0516a    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!g> -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:14:26 -0400e0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>! Subject: Re: LAT printer servers? C Message-ID: <paul.r.anderson-8DE1BB.10142611092000@news.compaq.com>h  G In article <rjqn1hgle2u.fsf@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>, Paul Repacholi a' <prep@morwong.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote:t  A > Are there any LAT capable servers available out there now days?i  F The Compaq/Digital RapidPrint 500 is still available (I think) but is B being replaced by the GENICOM RapidPrint 1000.  These devices are " rebranded Lantronix print servers.   Paul   --  ,    Paul Anderson, OpenVMS Engineering (DCPS),    Compaq Computer Corporation, Littleton MA   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:37:00 -0400 . From: Hank Vander Waal <hvanderw@novagate.com>! Subject: RE: LAT printer servers?p8 Message-ID: <000901c01bfd$bf4f1240$2b96a8c6@mscmain.com>  K We have been using the XCD print servers both the 2P/2S ones and the pocketr? print server (1/P)  using both LAT and IP nd they work great!!!    Hank Vander Waal Manufactuers Supply Co.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:55:50 -0400t# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>w! Subject: Re: LAT printer servers?t+ Message-ID: <39BD0086.EBA1B1C5@hsc.vcu.edu>a  I we're running a Lantronix that has lat, we don't use the lat, but it doesoS have it, the model eps2 printserver.. very nice, even uses decserver 500 commands..n  R only a very satisfied user.. it even does vms and windows nt simultanelously also.   jimu   Paul Repacholi wrote:g > 7 > Are there any LAT capable servers available out thered8 > now days? H-Ps support when asked about Jetdirects was/ > "What's LAT?" From their networking expert...i > 7 > Oh, I do know about the terminal servers. Par port isn: > whats needed. .ps bitmaps are not serial port fiendly at > any speed! >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.aB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:28:13 -0400n. From: "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca>) Subject: MOP protocol over VPN / firewalla, Message-ID: <8piqcl$ghg$1@cougar.golden.net>  I We are looking at replacing our private network via Frame relay with SDSL  over the internet.  I We have our hardware config pretty much set but the hardware provider sayfH that their devices block all broadcast traffic so I am assuming that MOPL will also be blocked. (DOES this also apply to DECNET ie MCR NCP ... CONNECT	 NODE....)i  I The only problem with that is we have remote locations from our host that J have DEC 90TL terminal servers that require remote boot operations as they* do not have internal flash boot available.  L Currenly we can do this with our RouteAbout Access EI routers by using a MOPH filter.  Since these routers will now become obsolete is there anyway toK filter to thru or do I have to have NETRIDER LOADER running on some machine L on the remote location internal network listening for requests.  We have the software and I know it works.o  J Is it possible to have NETRIDER LOADER running as an NT service as we haveJ an NT 4.0 sp6a server at each remote location, or does someone have to log0 in and have it start up with the STARTUP folder.   Thanks in advance    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:59:04 GMT- From: arcarlini@iee.org01 Subject: Re: NCL - detached process communications) Message-ID: <8pi6sj$ng1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>:  7 In article <968425162.456837@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>,u-   Ferry Bolhar <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> wrote:a  H > Does someone know how a process like NET$MOP communicates with NCL/CML  D There are EMAA calls to allow code to register itself as responsibleC for a particular entity. The interface itself is fairly complicated<H and I would not expect DECnet management to release the details; howeverE there *might* be enough bits available in the OpenVMS source listingsn for you to piece it together.>  H > communication takes place? Are there (documented) calls a process mustE > make to register itself as "supported entity" and send/receive data # > from/to NCL/CML or the EMA agent?e  0 These calls are (AFAIK) completely undocumented.   >vG > I plan to use the well-known NCL interface with some otherwise unusedoE > entities (there are enough) to implement a simple command interfaceb@ > which can be used to send commands to a detached process which > maintainsbG > a database about TCP/IP connections for a particular application. The F > reason for the use of NCL is that it is well known, provides commandF > line parsing and various output format capabilities, and can be usedE > easily locally, in a LAN as well in a WAN. It provides a consistentrF > security mechanism through the use of proxies and can log any remoteH > access. It can run previous created scripts (DO command) and can traceC > any command received/output sent. These are all features I had ton( > re-event when coding my own interface.  C If the entities you want to "borrow" provide exactly the syntax youaC want then you might be able to manage this. Otherwise you should bejB aware that simply registering yourself as responsible for say "X25A Server" does not mean you can define whatever you like under thate< entity. The parsing is always performed by NCL itself and isD completely controlled by the global section file. Rebuilding that to> incorporate additional material is non-trivial and unlikely to: be something that you can do without the appropriate build environment.   Antoniop   -- Antonio Carlinin    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:15:36 +0200 * From: Ferry Bolhar <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at>1 Subject: Re: NCL - detached process communicationt7 Message-ID: <968685335.317202@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>t   Thanks for this info!r   arcarlini@iee.org wrote: > 9 > In article <968425162.456837@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>,h/ >   Ferry Bolhar <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> wrote:n > J > > Does someone know how a process like NET$MOP communicates with NCL/CML > F > There are EMAA calls to allow code to register itself as responsibleE > for a particular entity. The interface itself is fairly complicated J > and I would not expect DECnet management to release the details; howeverG > there *might* be enough bits available in the OpenVMS source listings3 > for you to piece it together.t  E I have source listings of VMS V7.1 (VAX and Alpha) but wasn't able tolH find these sources. On my CD's, there are sources for phase IV only! Are* there special source CD's for DECnet-Plus?   I > > I plan to use the well-known NCL interface with some otherwise unused G > > entities (there are enough) to implement a simple command interfacetB > > which can be used to send commands to a detached process which
 > > maintainscI > > a database about TCP/IP connections for a particular application. ThesH > > reason for the use of NCL is that it is well known, provides commandH > > line parsing and various output format capabilities, and can be usedG > > easily locally, in a LAN as well in a WAN. It provides a consistenttH > > security mechanism through the use of proxies and can log any remoteJ > > access. It can run previous created scripts (DO command) and can traceE > > any command received/output sent. These are all features I had toa* > > re-event when coding my own interface. > E > If the entities you want to "borrow" provide exactly the syntax you0E > want then you might be able to manage this. Otherwise you should beOD > aware that simply registering yourself as responsible for say "X25C > Server" does not mean you can define whatever you like under that > > entity. The parsing is always performed by NCL itself and isF > completely controlled by the global section file. Rebuilding that to@ > incorporate additional material is non-trivial and unlikely to< > be something that you can do without the appropriate build > environment.  > I know the restrictions when using an entity and (some of) itsD attributes in this way. In my application, I only want to CREATE theG entity, want to SET remote host and port info (3 text-coded attributes)o= and ENABLE it to start the connection. I want to SHOW ... ALL D CHARACTERISTICS/STATUS and want to STOP a previoulsy dynamic createdG PORT to manually shutdown the connection.  That's all. There are enough H entities supporting these directives so it shouldn't be a problem to useF one them. All I had to do is to check that the attributes available toF this entity allow to specify my remote information in a understandableD way. There are over 250 entities and subentities known to NCL so I'd: assume I can use one of them and avoid to extend or modifyA NCL$GLOBALSECTION.DAT which is, IIRC, the global section file youe mentioned above. s  @ Since you wrote about EMAA, maybe the image NET$PROCESS_EMAA.EXEC contains the routines I'd require? However, this is not a shareablemH image in the usual way - it provides no global symbols for routine entry7 points - only a single symbol named NET$AR_EMAA_VECTOR?y  H Anyway, thanks again for your help. I'll try to get information from our local Compaq stuff here...   Best greetings, Ferry    -- n Ing. Ferry Bolhar-Nordenkampft Municipality of Vienna Municipality Department 14
 A-1010 Viennan E-mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.ats  : "Wenn hier einer schuld ist, dann immer nur der Computer."   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2000 14:20:47 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)G Subject: Re: OpenVMS and USB (wasRe: Off-Topic: DS10 Hardware question)'6 Message-ID: <8pipnv$9ps$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  G   nb: I know just enough of the technical details to be "dangerous" in 5"   this and in similar discussions.  E   USB is a great solution for certain classes of problems, as are theoC   various (arguable) predecessors (on other platforms) such as ADB. G   I'd like to see USB enabled and operational on the AlphaServer DS10, 1   for instance.r  F   USB in its present form is rather slow, though the new USB standards#   look to be curing that "problem".b  H   USB permits multiples of devices such as keyboards, but USB keyboards E   generally have no device serial number.  The commodity devices are .G   generally simple-minded and targeted for the typical USB platform and I   typical usage, in other words.  AFAIK, there are presently no plans to oD   go multi-seat for USB -- though with sufficient customer input to E   OpenVMS product management and to the hardware platform engineeringpD   teams, this decision may change.  (Assuming that various technical   issues can be resolved.)  E   USB does not and will not function in the current AlphaServer DS10  H   configuration and the SRM firmware will not offer USB to the operatingK   system as an available widget, as there were (apparently insurmountable)     problems found.  i  I   USB on OpenVMS will not support the variety of weird devices available,iJ   as USB driver work is targeting a subset of the spectrum of USB devices.  K   No LK-style USB keyboards are currently available.  I do not know if/when H   LK-style USB keyboards will be available for USB, or if only PC-layout   keyboards will be available.  G   USB will prevent the console halt-continue from working, as there is  G   far too much complexity to hand-off the USB control from the console rB   to OpenVMS and then back to the console.  Halt-reboot will work.  N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:19:05 -0400a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)G Subject: Re: OpenVMS and USB (wasRe: Off-Topic: DS10 Hardware question)tL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1109001119050001@user-2ivea21.dialup.mindspring.com>  [ In article <8pipnv$9ps$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam wrote:r  I >   nb: I know just enough of the technical details to be "dangerous" in o$ >   this and in similar discussions.   Thanks for the update.  G >   USB is a great solution for certain classes of problems, as are theaE >   various (arguable) predecessors (on other platforms) such as ADB.uI >   I'd like to see USB enabled and operational on the AlphaServer DS10,   >   for instance.L > H >   USB in its present form is rather slow, though the new USB standards% >   look to be curing that "problem".- >  >   The commodity devices are I >   generally simple-minded and targeted for the typical USB platform andF" >   typical usage, in other words.  F That seems to be the way of commodity stuff.  It just has to be sturdyH enough to keep the packing material from being damaged when UPS squishes> it.  We're not supposed to expect the device to actually work.   -- b Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:00:32 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>0D Subject: Re: Replace licenses for VAXcluster for Education/Research?H Message-ID: <y43dj7yyzz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  0 "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com> writes:   > >> Goto www.compaq.com> > >> Click on the Jobs link in the top right hand of the page.E > >> Enter your search criteria (eg category engineering keyword VMS)iA > >I always get no search results ("We're sorry..."). What gives? H > I think IE 4.x has problems.  IE 5.x seems to work okay.  I don't have > Netscape at home.e   I'm using Netscape."  N I get the impression they note my address can't be from the US, and decide not- to return any results. Thanks, but no thanks.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:43:23 -0500P* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>. Subject: Re[4]: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OT- Message-ID: <0033000004194304000002L042*@MHS>   D =0AFriend has a VLC. It was under his air conditioner, and the drain> blocked. It was the dripping noise that clued him, the VLC was) quite happy running as a demi Aquarius ;)    --< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.O@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.    =      Reminds me of the guy who overclocked his Pentium box byV=      immersing it in an aquarium full of liquid silicone thatE@      he ran thrugh an air conditioner compressor to get it cold.  9      Now I personally consider that to be a little crazy.-  @      He used to have a website up, but I can't find it any more.        WWWebb=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:47:46 +0000s$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk2 Subject: Re: Re[4]: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OT/ Message-ID: <00256957.005C0031.00@quegw01.btyp>5  = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazan     Try;  - http://www.ajcomputers.org/currentstatus.htmlr   Steve Spires        > WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> on 11/09/2000 03:43:23 PM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) M From:      WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>, 11 September 2000, 3:43 p.m.e  % Re[4]: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OTt            A Friend has a VLC. It was under his air conditioner, and the drain > blocked. It was the dripping noise that clued him, the VLC was) quite happy running as a demi Aquarius ;)    --< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.    =      Reminds me of the guy who overclocked his Pentium box byl=      immersing it in an aquarium full of liquid silicone that7@      he ran thrugh an air conditioner compressor to get it cold.  9      Now I personally consider that to be a little crazy.   @      He used to have a website up, but I can't find it any more.        WWWebb-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:49:19 -0400m! From: Dan Allen <dallen@nist.gov>m9 Subject: SCSI controller's for use with PC 164LX and OVMSp: Message-ID: <NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAEEAECJAA.dallen@nist.gov>  Z   My apologies for the tardy reply but I've been busy ;-)  I have a 164LX running OVMS 7.2T   and the config includes an IntraServer Single-ended Ultra-wide PCI SCSI controllerT   with 10/100 MB Ethernet port (Order number 4140UE-O*).  That device is over a yearR   old.  They offer a selection of newer devices for VMS.  I am not endorsing theirU   products but I can say that this config has run trouble free for the past year.  Nop   crashes or hangs.t     Dan    > -----Original Message-----+ > From: yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.netr. > [mailto:yyyc186.illegaltospam_@flashcom.net]* > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 7:18 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComaF > Subject: Re: Incoming: PC164LX with 533Mhz CPU's - DON'T READ IF OUR > POSTINGS OFFEND YOU !  >  > 7 > In <39B78A79.AC974504@bellatlantic.net>, on 09/08/00  7 >    at 07:17 AM, hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> said:- > J > It might support it with IDE.  The SRM does not support the 2940 AdaptecL > controller which is in mine.  I'm currently in search of a SCSI controllerJ > which is supported by the SRM....Otherwise I will have to break down and > buy and IDE drive...suckipoo >  > Roland > 5 > >Runs NetBSD very very nicely, allegedly runs OVMS.aH > >OVMS, allegedly, like NetBSD supports limited kinds of video cards. IJ > >plan on trying OVMS on my PC164, the SRM seems to indicate that it does+ > >support it, but I have not tried it yet.  > >hope this helps > >bob >  > >"Dave W. Parsons" wrote:  > >> rP > >> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:23:44, dwparsons@nikocity.de (Dave W. Parsons) wrote: > >> iJ > >> > On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:11:31, hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >> > > >> > >M > >> > > I ran mine up with NetBSD, IDE drive, S3Virge VGA, and it works like  > >> > > LIGHTENING!!  > >> > > bob > >> > > > >> >2 > >> > Do these boards support standard PCI cards?F > >> > I am thinking specifically of SCSI controllers and video cards?6 > >> > Do you know which types are supported/suitable? > >> > > >> rF > >> To reply to my own post, I have now answered most of my questionsK > >> having found the hardware compatibility list for the 164LX but all theuH > >> references to OSes are to NT, does anyone know whether they can run# > >> OVMS and if so how easy is it?  > >>   > >> --p	 > >> Davef > -- t= > -----------------------------------------------------------MF > yyyc186@flashcom.net              To Respond delete ".illegaltospam"8 >                             MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.52: >                             For a Microsoft free univers= > -----------------------------------------------------------t >  >  >    ------------------------------  / Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:00:06 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist6 Message-ID: <200009110756.JAA13055@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  H if the environmental parameter are the problem, then I do ask me, why do= the other machines run without any failure on the same floor? M We did see that an AlphaServer 8200 working with 45C degrees room temperature K without any failure. If the temperature becomes to hot the Alpha will shuts K down itself. If the E10K does this not (I can't believe that), then it will-M be a design failure. If the E10K stops to late its working, so that the cache0H will be corrupted and later die, then this will be a design failure too.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:29:45 +0000o$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist/ Message-ID: <00256957.00396558.00@quegw01.btyp>   = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazat     Andrew posted;  = "Well as someone has pointed out the operating temperature ise; actually  10-30 for the E10K typo on my part. Pity the same ; person appears to lack what ever it takes to correct Kerryse' and Robs totally incorrect statements."   " I assume you are talking about me?  D At least have the balls to say so rather than post snide comments...  L Tell me what comments have been made which you believe to be incorrect and IJ will endeavour to prove my impartiality. As long, of course, that they areN statements over, let's say, things which they believe to be factual, ie thingsN which can be found in documentation, rather than observations or comments, forF which it may not prove easy for me to state they are right or wrong...   Steve Spires   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:38:27 +0100dB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCA812.1295B264@uk.sun.com>  % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:   ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street PlazaD >o1 > Splitting hairs? Pot, kettle and black again...  >tR > The point of my post, if in fact there was one, is to point out that the figures > you gave were incorrect. >"P > And yet again, with the response below, you seem to be unsure of what you have > said in previous posts.  >t  > No Steve you see you have now got no excuse for not CORRECTINGE Kerry's posting in particular because you have read the HP datacenter D prep guide for the 2500. You now know  that HP's recommendations areK not at all dissimilar to Sun's and you also know that HP actually recommendr! a much tighter temperature range.   K You also know that while HP don't specifically recommend a realive humidityoG value that their table of static discharge vs relative humidty suggests  that 50% is a good value.-  E You also know that HP place great emphasis on reducing the chances ofeJ static discharge and they are specific about flooring furniture etc. Again8 this advice is exactly what Sun advises their customers.  > At the moment you seem happy to CORRECT minor details which inA no way materially effect the argument while being unable for what 7 ever reason to CORRECT the big mistake that Kerry made.s  C Since you seem unable to do this I suggest that you stop CORRECTING 7 my postings you have have forfetted any right to do so.s  B You see you can't have it both ways either you really want CORRECT< DATA to be diseminated to this group or you don't and at the> moment it's pretty unclear where you actually stand because at@ the moment you appear to be trying to hide the real facts behindD a smoke screen. Of course this may simply be an incorrect impression. that I have formed from your postings :):):):)  D Since you seem unable to write the fatefull lines yourself I include> the following paragraphs from which you can choose one choice.   1eF         I have read the HP site preparation guide for the HP V2500 andJ         based on the information in the guide Kerry and Rob are completelyQ         incorrect when they say that Sun is expecting their systems to be runninglG         in much more environmentally controlled environments than othero,         vendors such as HP, IBM, DG, Compaq.   2oK         I have read the guide but do not believe its contents and thereforee/         in my opinion Kerry and Rob are right .i   3cD         I have not read the guide and have no opinion or CORRECTIONS         to offer.    Choose 1 of the 3o       Regardst Andrew Harrisonm Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:56:49 +0100.B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCAC61.8AA7DF69@uk.sun.com>   David A Froble wrote:   * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >sN > Hey Andrew.  Why don't you just can all the talk about what anyone else saidN > about comparable environment requirements?  It's clear to anyone with half aQ > brain that that's just a smokescreen to avoid discussing the real issues, whichd > are: >o) >         Sun systems broke for 18 monthse$ >         Sun cannot fix the problem >         Sun gagging the usersg >   B David, the origional article posted to this newsgroup included one@ quote from one datacenter manager who had taken Sun's advice and= who had changed his datacenter environment and guess what hisnD reliability issues had gone away. Also in the same article and againF ignored by the people here who like FUD not facts was a quote from theI Meta group saying that they had reports from Sun's customers which showed K a problem earlier this year but they went on to say that the problem was not longer an issue.  H Sun has changed the part we now use a different e-cache supplier, peopleJ accused me of lying about thiis, but in fact it is a different part from a totally different vendor.m  B The change of part plus the changes many people have made to theirF environments plus the memory scrubbing patch  has caused the incidenceJ of e-cache failure to drop dramatically. As reported by Meta but of course3 ignored by you and other inhabitants of this group.u   >w/ > That's a good start, I'm sure there are more.t > N > Oh, and calling something old news, when the problem is still happening sureN > isn't a good idea.  You're just showing that Sun cannot fix something beforeO > it's considered old.  Maybe Sun is waiting for all the affected systems to beoP > retired, and then will declare the problem fixed?  Unfortunately, since you'reR > still selling them, that point is being pushed further (but maybe not too far if% > the users wise up) into the future.2 >7  I No actually you know thats incorrect, Sun isn't doing that we are insteadSN introducing a part with a mirrored cache, its a drastic measure and completely: the opposite to your suggestion that Sun is doing nothing.  K But you missed that in the origional article didn't you along with the Meta.A quotes and the manager who outlined how Sun had fixed the problemr	 for them.a  4 Meanwhile the FUDsters on this group who have posted7 saying that the datacenter regime proposed by Sun is inn1 someway much more rigorous than proposed by other < vendors have been shown to be at best simply to be confused.   Regardst Andrew Harrison" Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:59:31 +0100aB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCAD03.28EEC2DE@uk.sun.com>  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:n  G > Just to add to the confusion, I've not got a copy of the 8400 Owner'spL > Manual knocking around my desk, but the one for the AlphaServer 1000A says > :e >,M > "Table 2-1 lists the environmental conditions in which the system unit beste > operates. L > "Temperature range  Room temperature between 10 degrees C and 40 degrees C# > (50 degrees F and 104 degrees F). J > "Relative humidity  between 10% and 90% (20% to 80% with removable media > options).sL > "Air circulation  Allow a minimum clearance of 8cm (3 inches) on all sidesJ > of the system unit to allow sufficient air circulation.  Fans inside theK > system unit circulate the air to prevent excessive heat, which can damagen > the system components."o >fE > So you see, for a system of not much smaller size than an E450, theP" > requirements are quite wide.....  D I am not sure that you have the right model numbers. The 4100 is notE that much smaller than a Sun E450 workgroup server but I suspect thate@ you ment E4500 which is a much bigger server, 14 vs 4 CPU's justI for starters. Both the Sun's do have the same environmental requirements.-B Wider temperature range than the 4100, narrower relative humidity.   Regardsd Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:28:45 +0100nB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCB3DD.F5B832EB@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  9 Rob your postings would have a little more impact if theyf& were A correct and B not so selective.  9 You are happy to quote Gartner, in itself and interestinge7 choice of bedfellows Gartner after all being one of thes. great analyst deamons of the OpenVMS community? but in the same article there is a quote from Meta Group sayingl3 Sun had a problem earlier this year but the problem  was no longer an issue.b  9 You of course snipped this out. At the same time the onlyn3 report from a customer who had implimented what Sun 6 suggested also reported a sucessfull outcome, you have9 also chosen to disregard this as well probably because ita* ruins your chance of winning the argument.  1 You then quote an E420R problem fine, but did thed8 customer take Sun's advice on changing their environment6 yes or no. The article you posted does not say and you don't know do you.  @ You also tried pathetically to suggest that eBay has had another9 outage that was caused by Sun hardware but the report youn= posted makes no reference to Sun hardware or Software and the3: outage could have been caused by any one of a large numberB of other factors. In fact the report does not say if the issue was9 with a Sun system at all. Remember the WEB outage at eBayaB that you thought was Sun's fault but turned out to be an NT issue.  G Remember you posted about the origional eBay 22 hour outage speculationo? that the outage was caused by Sun HW/SW with no actual evidencehH to back it up which turned out to be totally incorrect. Why do you thinkD you are right now your record so far on eBay is one of 100% failure.    P > > Blimey Rob do you ever learn. The software patch impliments memory scrubbingP > > for the e-Cache, this is hardly revolutionary or strange. Most large systemsP > > that I know of use this for main memory and have done for some time, S390's,K > > HP's and Sun's all scrub main memory. The Sun patch impliments this for<S > > e-Cache and for all I know Alpha's running OpenVMS/Tru64 may have this facility0
 > > allready.0 >0= > Not my problem.  That is the clever doublespeak he is beingt > fed by the Sun FEs no doubt. >a  C So memory scrubbing is some sort of clever double speak is it. Tells? that to IBM, Sun and HP customers (Compaq probably as well) who C all have systems that use memory scrubbing now. If you really don'tK@ understand what memory scrubbing is then just say, it won't make you look any less clever.W   >o > ===s >lI >         Is that pooh-poohing?  Sorry.  Didn't mean to pooh pooh on yourx >         parade.g > C > > Thats for starters so come on these are specific you made theseiB > > claims, they are just as incorrect as all your previous FUD onD > > eBay and just as incorrect as the Spiralog/Galaxy/21264/WildFireD > > predictions that you also made. How do you expect me to take you< > > seriously when you have enven started pre-announcing the/ > > "capabilities" of Marvel on this newsgroup.] > >' >iC >         Ahhh.. come on Andrew.  You got caught with your knickerspG >         down and like a 5 year old you go on denying you did anything = >         wrong.  It wasn't clever twisting of what you said. I >         I went back, posted what you wrote in mid-December and compared F >         that to recent events.  Back then you claimed the Sun ServerQ >         problems were "old news" going so far as to claim Sun actually informed:M >         Gartner of them and that newer cache modules fixed it.  That wasn'tCG >         the case then and isn't the case now.  The more you twist andr2 >         turn makes you look sillier and sillier. >u  I Sorry Rob but you see I was telling the truth, we did change the part, we K now use a totally different ecache part from a completlely different vendor I and one of our competitors is being very very carefull about the FUD theye throw over ecache issues.l   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectd   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:50:26 +0000o$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist/ Message-ID: <00256957.0040C706.00@quegw01.btyp>a  = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazay     Look,   P I've said this in another post, but I'll repeat it here, as you seem happy to to try and give me grief online.t  L Tell me what Kerry and Rob have said (post their remarks) and I will happily> correct them if they have made factually incorrect statements.  P I won't choose one of your paragraphs until you can tell me what the temperatureJ and humidity was in the datacentres which seem to be at the centre of thisP thread, and at which temperature and humidity ALL THE OTHER SYSTEMS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN OPERATING WITHOUT PROBLEM.c  O Forgive me for being simple and stupid, but doesn't the fact that the SUN boxestL fail unless the temperature is reduced by 10-15 degrees (as you have stated)I mean ultimately that they need a narrower environmental window than othera. systems, notwithstanding what the manuals say?  K As far as smokescreens go, sorry, I thought I was posting the correct data,bM which you seem to be agreeing with me in your posting. Whether you think I amOM being unfair with selective corrections is immaterial really. Correct data is,O correct data. I'm not saying either one of you is wrong in your conclusions - ItK haven't tried to say that your conclusions are any different, more correct,tO whatever, that Rob and Kerry, I just put the figures from the manufacturers outsL on the list. If you would rather that we take the figures you post as gospelO without checking, then I can only suggest that you respect members of this listr more than you do.,  P I tell you what, you pick out some statements from Rob and Kerry which you feel,O in respect of this thread, are FACTUALLY incorrect, and can be verified one wayvO or the other, post them here or to me, I will check them myself, then you and I  can meet and discuss...S   Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow PAgeso        J Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> on 11/09/2000 09:38:27 AM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)tK From:      Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>, 11D$            September 2000, 9:38 a.m.  ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persistl        % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:D  ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza> > 1 > Splitting hairs? Pot, kettle and black again...y >eJ > The point of my post, if in fact there was one, is to point out that the figures  > you gave were incorrect. >NP > And yet again, with the response below, you seem to be unsure of what you have > said in previous posts.  >-  > No Steve you see you have now got no excuse for not CORRECTINGE Kerry's posting in particular because you have read the HP datacenter"D prep guide for the 2500. You now know  that HP's recommendations areK not at all dissimilar to Sun's and you also know that HP actually recommend-! a much tighter temperature range.   K You also know that while HP don't specifically recommend a realive humidity G value that their table of static discharge vs relative humidty suggestsn that 50% is a good value.   E You also know that HP place great emphasis on reducing the chances ofeJ static discharge and they are specific about flooring furniture etc. Again8 this advice is exactly what Sun advises their customers.  > At the moment you seem happy to CORRECT minor details which inA no way materially effect the argument while being unable for whatt7 ever reason to CORRECT the big mistake that Kerry made.n  C Since you seem unable to do this I suggest that you stop CORRECTING17 my postings you have have forfetted any right to do so.   B You see you can't have it both ways either you really want CORRECT< DATA to be diseminated to this group or you don't and at the> moment it's pretty unclear where you actually stand because at@ the moment you appear to be trying to hide the real facts behindD a smoke screen. Of course this may simply be an incorrect impression. that I have formed from your postings :):):):)  D Since you seem unable to write the fatefull lines yourself I include> the following paragraphs from which you can choose one choice.   1aF         I have read the HP site preparation guide for the HP V2500 andJ         based on the information in the guide Kerry and Rob are completelyI         incorrect when they say that Sun is expecting their systems to bem runningeG         in much more environmentally controlled environments than otherv,         vendors such as HP, IBM, DG, Compaq.   2eK         I have read the guide but do not believe its contents and thereforen/         in my opinion Kerry and Rob are right .h   3sD         I have not read the guide and have no opinion or CORRECTIONS         to offer.    Choose 1 of the 3r       Regards- Andrew Harrison- Enterprise IT Architect0   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:30:57 +0100u  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persistH Message-ID: <OFCF6C9114.2F269FDC-ON80256957.0039454D@qedi.quintiles.com>  F Where did the 4100 come from Andrew?  I was looking (as I said) at the7 AlphaServer 1000A manual and comparing it with an E450.f   Steve.   Andrew Harrison wrote/quoted:oJ >>>> Just to add to the confusion, I've not got a copy of the 8400 Owner'sG > Manual knocking around my desk, but the one for the AlphaServer 1000A  says > :s > H > "Table 2-1 lists the environmental conditions in which the system unit best > operates.rJ > "Temperature range  Room temperature between 10 degrees C and 40 degrees Cn# > (50 degrees F and 104 degrees F).eJ > "Relative humidity  between 10% and 90% (20% to 80% with removable media > options).gF > "Air circulation  Allow a minimum clearance of 8cm (3 inches) on all sidesmJ > of the system unit to allow sufficient air circulation.  Fans inside theK > system unit circulate the air to prevent excessive heat, which can damagel > the system components."i >tE > So you see, for a system of not much smaller size than an E450, theu" > requirements are quite wide.....  D I am not sure that you have the right model numbers. The 4100 is notE that much smaller than a Sun E450 workgroup server but I suspect thatn@ you ment E4500 which is a much bigger server, 14 vs 4 CPU's justI for starters. Both the Sun's do have the same environmental requirements.oE Wider temperature range than the 4100, narrower relative humidity.<<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 07:27:32 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>o* Subject: RE: Sun Hardware problems persistJ Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D80528479A@kaoexc4.kao.dec.com>   G'day Andrew !  I Hey, took a week off to do Customer stuff and boy, it looks like I really H hit a nerve with you in my last posting here .. Boy, I hate it when that happens :-)t  I You seem to think my last posting was fud, incorrect or whatever and haveh5 posted a number of replies challenging what I stated.   ' Ok, lets look at what I actually said:    K Quote "Based on all of the notes you have presented here, are Sun technical E documents being updated to reflect Suns requirements for much tighternL environmental controls than other vendors? IBM, HP, Compaq, DG do not appearK to be having these issues, so it appears their systems can operate reliablyuI at higher (what some would consider normal) datacenter temperatures." ende quote.  H The bottom line is that, based on reports from Gartner and various pressK articles, while the datacenters  in question might (or might not have) havenF been a bit on the high side of the recommended ranges, it was only Sun# systems that were having problems.    K My understanding (please correct me if I am in error here) that none of thejF datacenters in question were operating outside of the recommended high1 temperature ranges of the vendor recommendations.r  L The issue here is that, in some cases (not all - based on reports here), SunG appears to have found a workaround to the cache problem by lowering thei temperature in the datacenter. t  K For some Customers, that may be ok. For those that might be still affected,s$ it obviously will not be acceptable.  J The big key here is that the lowering of the temperature is a workaround -G not a solution. Remember, other vendor systems in these datacenters arei@ operating with no problems at current temp and humidity levels.   I Imho, if any vendor had problems like this, then I personally would thinksC statements should be made like "until a final solution is found, xxeH recommends further lowering the datacenter temperature and humidity to a* range of xx-yy as a temporary workaround."  L I am not saying that Compaq or HP or IBM systems are any less susceptible toK static problems. Systems from all vendors had problems like this many yearsh ago.  G However, in this day and age, it is hard for me to understand how large K computers in raised floor (or specially tiled floors) with air conditioning H and highly integrated and isolated grounding strategies (based on todaysD high speed chip requirements), can still have static problems today.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant,
 Compaq Canadat Professional Servicesy Voice : 613-592-4660 FAX   : 819-772-7036 Email : kerry.main@compaq.coms       -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyo! [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]'( Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:38 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist    % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:   ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazai > 1 > Splitting hairs? Pot, kettle and black again...u >dJ > The point of my post, if in fact there was one, is to point out that the figuresa > you gave were incorrect. >tK > And yet again, with the response below, you seem to be unsure of what youc have > said in previous posts.p >e  > No Steve you see you have now got no excuse for not CORRECTINGE Kerry's posting in particular because you have read the HP datacenterMD prep guide for the 2500. You now know  that HP's recommendations areK not at all dissimilar to Sun's and you also know that HP actually recommendg! a much tighter temperature range.d  K You also know that while HP don't specifically recommend a realive humidityeG value that their table of static discharge vs relative humidty suggestsi that 50% is a good value.c  E You also know that HP place great emphasis on reducing the chances of0J static discharge and they are specific about flooring furniture etc. Again8 this advice is exactly what Sun advises their customers.  > At the moment you seem happy to CORRECT minor details which inA no way materially effect the argument while being unable for whatw7 ever reason to CORRECT the big mistake that Kerry made.   C Since you seem unable to do this I suggest that you stop CORRECTINGt7 my postings you have have forfetted any right to do so.   B You see you can't have it both ways either you really want CORRECT< DATA to be diseminated to this group or you don't and at the> moment it's pretty unclear where you actually stand because at@ the moment you appear to be trying to hide the real facts behindD a smoke screen. Of course this may simply be an incorrect impression. that I have formed from your postings :):):):)  D Since you seem unable to write the fatefull lines yourself I include> the following paragraphs from which you can choose one choice.   1zF         I have read the HP site preparation guide for the HP V2500 andJ         based on the information in the guide Kerry and Rob are completelyI         incorrect when they say that Sun is expecting their systems to bei runningbG         in much more environmentally controlled environments than othere,         vendors such as HP, IBM, DG, Compaq.   2rK         I have read the guide but do not believe its contents and thereforeo/         in my opinion Kerry and Rob are right .-   3-D         I have not read the guide and have no opinion or CORRECTIONS         to offer.    Choose 1 of the 3.       RegardsR Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT ArchitectD   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:34:42 +0100oB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCC352.236373D8@uk.sun.com>  % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:s  ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazar >l > Look,s >qR > I've said this in another post, but I'll repeat it here, as you seem happy to to > try and give me grief online.f >uN > Tell me what Kerry and Rob have said (post their remarks) and I will happily@ > correct them if they have made factually incorrect statements. >   / Well here is one of Kerry's posts for starters.b  O "Based on all of the notes you have presented here, are Sun technical documents4Q being updated to reflect Suns requrements for much tighter environmental controlsnS than other vendors? IBM, HP, Compaq, DG do not appear to be having these issues, sooQ it appears their systems can operate reliably at higher (what some would considers! normal) datacenter temperatures."o  	   Wow .."k  S This statement contains at least 2 entirely INCORRECT statements which no doubt youa willM respond by CORRECTING. One of which demostrated that Kerry isn't competent tos commentiQ about the environmental requirements for Compaq's own equipment let alone passings commentt on other peoples.n  O Incedentally this post was the one I replied to which you CORRECTED, you didn'to spot the 2 errors Q then so lets see how you do now. Incedentally Kerry concentrated very unwisely on  high temperatureS requirements which is why I replied illustrating that he was unaware that the GS140l actually8 requires a lower operating temperature than Sun, HP etc.  O I await your response with interest, though I can't help feeling that you woulde	 have beeneQ better off reading Kerry's post before replying to mine, (assuming you didn't) asS	 it hasn't  helped you one bit.r   Regardso Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:39:01 +0100lB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCC455.71911E98@uk.sun.com>  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:l  H > Where did the 4100 come from Andrew?  I was looking (as I said) at the9 > AlphaServer 1000A manual and comparing it with an E450.' >   C Sorry I misread you posting, but then the 1000 is even smaller thanoG the 4100 isn't. I can't remember how many CPU's it supports but 1 seemsS; to come to mind. So its a maximum of 25% of the capacity of 	 the E450.t   Regardse Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architecth   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:54:46 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCC806.C5DE9F39@uk.sun.com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:  I > If the Suns have the same environmental requirements as everyone else'shF > kit, Andrew, why are these Suns failing in the same room where otherM > manufacturers' machines are working perfectly? Sounds to me like either thetM > Suns are more sensitive, regardless of what the recommended numbers are, oryK > there's a flaw in the Sun equipment that's not related to the environmentk% > or the treatment they're receiving.  >   C I don't know the answer to this. All I can quote you is my personal: experience.aH The customer I am currently working for has had 2 CPU ecache failures inF one of their datacenters. They havn't to my knowledge had any failuresF on machines from other vendors of this nature. However and this is theD big however they have far more Sun's than any other servers over 300@ with a number of E10K's. The machines from the other vendors areB Compaq proliants and small 1-6 CPU IBM AIX servers. These machinesC are much smaller workgroup servers and they do have wider operatinge. temperature specs than the E10K's for example.  B What the customer does not have for example is larger systems from@ any of our competitors like the HP V2500/2600 or the GS140 which< have much more stringent environmental requirements than the! smaller systems from each vendor.S       Regards  Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2000 09:49:36 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist+ Message-ID: <e$67NqPCF3DK@eisner.decus.org>i  o In article <39BCB3DD.F5B832EB@uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:i > Rob Young wrote:   > 3 > You then quote an E420R problem fine, but did thet: > customer take Sun's advice on changing their environment8 > yes or no. The article you posted does not say and you > don't know do you. >   7 	Maybe Sun's suggestion is unreasonable if the customere8 	in question can't do it.  If all the other equipment in; 	the room is operating fine and the Sun box keeps crashing,d> 	the people at IQ4Hire must think Sun is either:  1) insane or- 	2) makes crappy equipment.  Choose 1) or 2).     B > You also tried pathetically to suggest that eBay has had another; > outage that was caused by Sun hardware but the report youe? > posted makes no reference to Sun hardware or Software and the < > outage could have been caused by any one of a large numberD > of other factors. In fact the report does not say if the issue was; > with a Sun system at all. Remember the WEB outage at eBaytD > that you thought was Sun's fault but turned out to be an NT issue. >   > 	Andrew.. do me a favor.  Instead of forcing me to go back out< 	(constant issue on your part) and trotting out what eBay or= 	Gartner or IQ4Hire says... quote what they say, highlight itt; 	and then tell me how we are misreading it.  If that is tooa> 	difficult for you, drop me a line and I will show you how to 9 	do it.  The recent eBay outages are referred to from thet  	eBay announcement page as such:        User: aw@ebay.com  Date: 08/09/00   Time: 21:24:33 PDT -                          *** TECH MESSAGE ***o   E Recently we have experienced several issues that have impacted eBay'scL availability. We want to take a moment to update you about our situation and2 the things that we're doing to address the issues.   J First, over the last few weeks, we have been making a number of "headroom"O improvements to the entire system to ensure the scalability of the site for thetG future. Normally, making these improvements should be invisible to you.k% Unfortunately, this was not the case.    L These changes resulted in availability issues with My eBay and Seller SearchM during high traffic periods. There were a number of fine-tunes that had to bewP made, as well as code issues that had to be addressed, to resolve this problem.    G We believe these issues have been resolved. To be sure, though, we willrK continue monitoring the system through a few more "prime times" (hours whenm( traffic of the site is at its heaviest).   L Second, we have experienced three hardware failures in the last 10 days thatI have resulted in system downtimes, including the one tonight. During eachhH failure, we have migrated to our backup system as quickly as possible to restore system availability.   O Later tonight and during our regularly scheduled maintenance on Friday morning,tI we plan to make additional improvements to the system to help address thes hardware issues.   O System stability is still our number one priority. We appreciate your support. e   !                          Regards,t                          eBaye  > 	Now Andrew being Andrew .. you attempt to show the world that@ 	this really isn't a UE10000 issue because it doesn't explicitly< 	state it.  However , if you go back a few weeks to another C 	c.o.v post you see where the other part of the above shows up...  R  @ 	Might I add, if you attempt to spin something ... don't attempt> 	to spin something that is patentently unspinnable.  Makes you 	look silly.       User: aw@ebay.com  Date: 08/09/00   Time: 19:57:52 PDTn.                          *** SYSTEM STATUS ***   (  The eBay system is currently available.   N At 19:15 PT, we experienced a hardware failure on our main server. We migratedN to our backup system, and the site became available at 19:57 PT. Please accept our apologies.   K We will continue to carefully monitor the system and will inform you of anyh changes in its status.   !                          Regards,e                          eBayi    @ 	Tell us Andrew... what is the Main Server such that it takes 42; 	minutes to cutover to the backup system?  Is that the MainB: 	NT Web Server?  Nice try laddy.  Your shorts are showing.    I > Remember you posted about the origional eBay 22 hour outage speculation A > that the outage was caused by Sun HW/SW with no actual evidenceoJ > to back it up which turned out to be totally incorrect. Why do you thinkF > you are right now your record so far on eBay is one of 100% failure. >   B 	Dig dig dig... what .. you go back 2 years?  Way to go.  Besides,B 	you make it sound as if I trot these things out with no backing. A 	I simply cut and pasted www.news.com's view of things.  Is it myi@ 	fault they got it wrong?  Is it my fault for attempting to show= 	what may or may not have caused it?  But since eBay has been.> 	down many times since, seems pretty much to me that they have> 	very unrealiable Sun hardware in the breech if the August 9th- 	posting is to be believed according to eBay.e     >>D >> > Thats for starters so come on these are specific you made theseC >> > claims, they are just as incorrect as all your previous FUD ontE >> > eBay and just as incorrect as the Spiralog/Galaxy/21264/WildFire E >> > predictions that you also made. How do you expect me to take you = >> > seriously when you have enven started pre-announcing the 0 >> > "capabilities" of Marvel on this newsgroup. >> > >>D >>         Ahhh.. come on Andrew.  You got caught with your knickersH >>         down and like a 5 year old you go on denying you did anything> >>         wrong.  It wasn't clever twisting of what you said.J >>         I went back, posted what you wrote in mid-December and comparedG >>         that to recent events.  Back then you claimed the Sun Server R >>         problems were "old news" going so far as to claim Sun actually informedN >>         Gartner of them and that newer cache modules fixed it.  That wasn'tH >>         the case then and isn't the case now.  The more you twist and3 >>         turn makes you look sillier and sillier.- >> > K > Sorry Rob but you see I was telling the truth, we did change the part, werM > now use a totally different ecache part from a completlely different vendorgK > and one of our competitors is being very very carefull about the FUD they  > throw over ecache issues.o >   & 	You are still having ecache problems.  A 	Hmmmmm.  "Telling the truth?"   Seems to me concensus here leanst> 	strongly in the other direction.  Especially damning is your < 	December 1999 post where you called it "old news."  Hmmphh!  A 	It isn't "old news"... you might want to ring up John Shoemaker,l= 	"Sun Executive Vice President" who said a fix is on the way.eC 	Mirrored-cache.   Mighty strange fix for an environmental problem.e   	John Shoemaker states:n  8 	"We are close to declaring complete victory over this."  C 	Andrew, do you have John's email handy?  I would like to point oute: 	to him that you tell us complete victory was won in 1999.  	 	Spin on!a   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:12:39 +0000r$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist/ Message-ID: <00256957.004DCC6E.00@quegw01.btyp>f  = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazag    P Sorry Andrew, how difficult is this for you to understand. The fact that the SunM boxes couldn't run in the same environment as boxes of other manufacturers is K de-facto stating that they require more stringent operating conditions than ) others. No matter what the manuals state.e  M Sun have also admitted in one of the reports mentioned in previous posts thati# they require more stringent audits;   P "Palo Alto, Calif.-based Sun has also put in place far more rigorous quality andN availability testing of its products and is mandating more stringent audits ofK customer sites, environmental conditions, and planned configurations beforei8 taking orders on its high-end servers, Shoemaker said. "  O So, if my site, which already has dozens of systems working away quite happily,n? decided it wanted to buy an E10K, and Sun said they wouldn't or C couldn't sell me one until environmental conditions were tighter...e   Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow Pages         J Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> on 08/09/2000 04:14:04 PMi    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)rJ From:      Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>, 8$            September 2000, 4:14 p.m.  ! Re: Sun Hardware problems persistn        % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:g  ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza, >n > Why? > I > You are giving figures for specific machines, for which I am giving theqP > specifications from the manufacturers websites pertinent to those machines. SoK > these are the SPECIFIC ENVIRONMENTAL REQUIREMENTS for these machines. Notr" > generic datacentre requirements. >w  > Steve Kerry was wrong you know it and you are just nit picking= admit it he was wrong, Rob was wrong Sun's don't require morer< specifically more stringent environments than HP's IBM's and Compaqs.  : Flame him for being wrong or stop arguing you cant have it  
 both ways.   Regardsa Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectf   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:03:22 +0100 B From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist* Message-ID: <39BCE62A.6C1D5650@uk.sun.com>  % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:   ? > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazae > R > Sorry Andrew, how difficult is this for you to understand. The fact that the SunO > boxes couldn't run in the same environment as boxes of other manufacturers ismM > de-facto stating that they require more stringent operating conditions thanr+ > others. No matter what the manuals state.t >c  F So you are saying that Sun's datacenter preparation guide is wrong and@ that the advice in it is not the advice we are giving customers.  @ Sorry Steve the advice in the manual is the advice customers areE given if they have an datacenter assessment from Sun or a pre install I survey and the advice that Sun is giving customers is the same materiallyrC as the advice in the HP datacenter prep guide, which you have read.o     >TO > Sun have also admitted in one of the reports mentioned in previous posts thatt% > they require more stringent audits;o >aR > "Palo Alto, Calif.-based Sun has also put in place far more rigorous quality andP > availability testing of its products and is mandating more stringent audits ofM > customer sites, environmental conditions, and planned configurations beforet: > taking orders on its high-end servers, Shoemaker said. " >   J Sorry Steve you are grasping at straws, Sun is simply doing more checks ofH customers datacenter environments, that means for example going back andI checking an environment after the systems have been installed and runninghG rather then just as part of the initial site survey. As you should know  environmentsF change in datacenters and can change quite rapidly. That is what Sun's" datacenter assesment service does.  H Sun is also not concentrating just on temp and humidity but on the otherP aspects of datacenter enviroment like flooring, sub-floor conditions, furniture.  H This is more rigirous but not in the way that you are trying to suggest.   >sQ > So, if my site, which already has dozens of systems working away quite happily, A > decided it wanted to buy an E10K, and Sun said they wouldn't or E > couldn't sell me one until environmental conditions were tighter...o >   H It depends on what your enviroment is like we might we might not, but ifF you have HP V2500/2600's and if you have followed HP's recommendationsK then probably not. If you have only got HP N4000's then possibly, they have @ a wider operating range than E10K's and V2500's they are however much smaller systems.T  @ So whats it to be CORRECT Kerry or continue to smoke screen. You/ are running awfully short of excuses :):):):):)a   Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:15:20 +0000e$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist/ Message-ID: <00256957.00590841.00@quegw01.btyp>   = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazan    @ >> Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza >>O >> Sorry Andrew, how difficult is this for you to understand. The fact that them SunDP >> boxes couldn't run in the same environment as boxes of other manufacturers isN >> de-facto stating that they require more stringent operating conditions than, >> others. No matter what the manuals state. >> >tG >So you are saying that Sun's datacenter preparation guide is wrong andRA >that the advice in it is not the advice we are giving customers.o >n  N Not at all. What I am saying is that if you have (eg) two boxes from differentG manufacturers which are running in the same room, if one of those boxesIP keeps crashing due to problems related to the operating environment, and to stop8 this box from crashing, you have to change the operatingG environment, then by that action, you are requiring a tighter operatingiI environment for that box than the other box. Of course we don't know whatg temperaturetL the datacentre in question was before and after the documented problems wereO 'solved'. I'm sure that that information is available to you. Perhaps you wouldn like to share it with us?   >aA >Sorry Steve the advice in the manual is the advice customers are F >given if they have an datacenter assessment from Sun or a pre installJ >survey and the advice that Sun is giving customers is the same materiallyD >as the advice in the HP datacenter prep guide, which you have read. >-  L And of course you could perhaps also let us know if the site in question hadK undergone the datacentre assessment you mention, and if they were operatingS within that.P Or did SUN not bother with either a datacentre assessment or site survey in this6 (and the other sites mentioned in the press) instance?   >b >>P >> Sun have also admitted in one of the reports mentioned in previous posts that& >> they require more stringent audits; >>O >> "Palo Alto, Calif.-based Sun has also put in place far more rigorous qualitya andoN >> availability testing of its products and is mandating more stringent audits ofN >> customer sites, environmental conditions, and planned configurations before; >> taking orders on its high-end servers, Shoemaker said. "  >> >tK >Sorry Steve you are grasping at straws, Sun is simply doing more checks ofAI >customers datacenter environments, that means for example going back andrJ >checking an environment after the systems have been installed and runningH >rather then just as part of the initial site survey. As you should know  P Sorry Andrew, read the quote...   "before taking orders on its high-end servers"9 NOT after you've had them in your datacentre for a while.e  
 >environmentscG >change in datacenters and can change quite rapidly. That is what Sun'so# >datacenter assesment service does.e >nI >Sun is also not concentrating just on temp and humidity but on the othernF >aspects of datacenter enviroment like flooring, sub-floor conditions,
 furniture. >hI >This is more rigirous but not in the way that you are trying to suggest.. >e  O I can only repeat what I have said above, from a quotation from Mr Shoemaker, "rP ...is mandating more stringent audits... ...before taking orders on its high-end	 servers."eP Perhaps, as has been suggested elsewhere, you could include Mr Shoemaker on thisF thread, so that we can get the story in it's correct form, rather than second-hand from theP IT press, although I'm sure that had there been any inaccuracies, SUN would have had something to say about it.   > I >> So, if my site, which already has dozens of systems working away quite- happily,B >> decided it wanted to buy an E10K, and Sun said they wouldn't orF >> couldn't sell me one until environmental conditions were tighter... >> >rI >It depends on what your enviroment is like we might we might not, but ifSG >you have HP V2500/2600's and if you have followed HP's recommendations L >then probably not. If you have only got HP N4000's then possibly, they haveA >a wider operating range than E10K's and V2500's they are howevery >much smaller systems. >y  K Well, we have in our datacentre 8400s, V2500s, E4500s, an ICL 39/80, 4100s,c9 2100s, a 6630, DS20s, DS10s, N4000s, Sun 6500, RS/6000...m  A >So whats it to be CORRECT Kerry or continue to smoke screen. You 0 >are running awfully short of excuses :):):):):) >i  ? Well, I'll correct Kerry insofar as he included HP in his list;    Compaq GS320 : 5-35C and 10-90%t DG AV25000 : 10-38C and 20-80% SUN E10K : 10-30C and 30-70% HP V2600 : 20-30C and 40-60%  L I would have liked to have included IBM, but their website is such a pain to, navigate, someone else will have to do it...   >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow Pagese   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:38:32 +0000 $ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist/ Message-ID: <00256957.005B27DE.00@quegw01.btyp>o  = Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  VSSG, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazae     Andrew posted;  C "What the customer does not have for example is larger systems fromu@ any of our competitors like the HP V2500/2600 or the GS140 which< have much more stringent environmental requirements than the" smaller systems from each vendor."  & Well, not necessarily (as an example);   Compaq GS320 : 5-35C and 10-90%*  Compaq DS10L : 10-35C and 10-90%   HP V2600 : 20-30C and 40-60% HP L1000 : 20-25C and 40-60%  N Although those for the L1000 did surprise me I have to admit. I would not have3 expected such a small difference in temperatures...    Steve Spires VMS System Manager BT/Yellow Pages    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:45:32 +0100bB From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist) Message-ID: <39BD0C2B.A3D2409@uk.sun.com>n  % Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk wrote:M  I > >So you are saying that Sun's datacenter preparation guide is wrong and C > >that the advice in it is not the advice we are giving customers.b > >r >eP > Not at all. What I am saying is that if you have (eg) two boxes from differentI > manufacturers which are running in the same room, if one of those boxes R > keeps crashing due to problems related to the operating environment, and to stop: > this box from crashing, you have to change the operatingI > environment, then by that action, you are requiring a tighter operatinggK > environment for that box than the other box. Of course we don't know what 
 > temperaturetN > the datacentre in question was before and after the documented problems wereQ > 'solved'. I'm sure that that information is available to you. Perhaps you wouldl > like > to share it with us?  I Lets say it was outside our operating temperature range for the where theuM E10K was in the datacenter which puts it outside the range for the GS140/8400eD and your HP V2500's. Remember temperatures are not always uniform inH a datacenter. Remember that HP's preparation guide (which you have read)K specifies that you sample the ambient temperature at the air intakes on the  V2500.   > >oC > >Sorry Steve the advice in the manual is the advice customers aremH > >given if they have an datacenter assessment from Sun or a pre installL > >survey and the advice that Sun is giving customers is the same materiallyF > >as the advice in the HP datacenter prep guide, which you have read. > >a >yN > And of course you could perhaps also let us know if the site in question hadM > undergone the datacentre assessment you mention, and if they were operatingi > within that.R > Or did SUN not bother with either a datacentre assessment or site survey in this8 > (and the other sites mentioned in the press) instance? >   R Sun bothered with a site survey, we require them for all enterprise class servers,K we also bothered with a datacenter assessment which highlighted some issuesbJ mainly relating to high temperatures, which would have been highlighted byJ Compaq (or should have) if the datacenter in question was housing GS140's.  F The customer hasn't been able to impliment all the recommendations andM will not be able to until they get more space or reduce the number of systemso% they have in the existing datacenter.c  M > >Sorry Steve you are grasping at straws, Sun is simply doing more checks ofbK > >customers datacenter environments, that means for example going back andnL > >checking an environment after the systems have been installed and runningJ > >rather then just as part of the initial site survey. As you should know >wR > Sorry Andrew, read the quote...   "before taking orders on its high-end servers"; > NOT after you've had them in your datacentre for a while.l >u  @ Sun does both, before taking orders we do a site survey and when? people have had systems installed we offer them free datacentern assesments.e   > <snip>M > Well, we have in our datacentre 8400s, V2500s, E4500s, an ICL 39/80, 4100s, ; > 2100s, a 6630, DS20s, DS10s, N4000s, Sun 6500, RS/6000...W >FC > >So whats it to be CORRECT Kerry or continue to smoke screen. Youk2 > >are running awfully short of excuses :):):):):) > >n >cA > Well, I'll correct Kerry insofar as he included HP in his list;> >>! > Compaq GS320 : 5-35C and 10-90%u    > DG AV25000 : 10-38C and 20-80%   > SUN E10K : 10-30C and 30-70%  : > Compaq GS140/8400 15-28C, 20-80 % (Lets be CORRECT here) > HP V2600 : 20-30C and 40-60% >.N > I would have liked to have included IBM, but their website is such a pain to. > navigate, someone else will have to do it... >m  D So for your environment Kerry was wrong wasn't he, you admit that heK was wrong about HP, but you forgot to include the GS140/8400 which you alsohF have and which has a requirement for a tighter temperature requirementC than an E10K. something that Kerry forgot in his posting. How wrongl7 does Kerry need to get before you start CORRECTING him.   D I take your posting as an admission however grudgingly that Sun doesE not in fact require a more controlled environment than other vendors.r< Perhaps you should also spend more time CORRECTING Kerry, he" certainly seems to need some help.   Regardsi Andrew Harrisonp Enterprise IT Architectl   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:29:51 GMTh  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist8 Message-ID: <qj4qrs8asvhp222mp09p7kfo9b9vb2emig@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:06:48 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyh! <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:o     >>M >> Ah. The ancient Origin 2000 had a maximum local to remote latency ratio ofs >> 1:3?e >> >oA >Basically yes and the actual latencies are also almost identicale@ >to the WildFire, the Origin 2000's local latency was 310 ns andF >the remote if I remember correctly 950 ns. Both better than WildFire. >-B >But the Origin 2000 is 4 year old machine and has been superceded >by the 3000 which is faster.s  B OTOH, there are many other things about the GS160/320 architecture> that are way above what the Origin had 4 years ago.  I've beenF surveying some techinical information, and it directly addresses Sun's! (and Andrew's) FUD on this issue.h  < Most notably are these facts:  1) Cross-bar switch, 2) cache  coherency, and 3) OOO execution.  F #1 allows a much greater bandwidth, despite the slower latency.  A bus@ architecture, as used by Sun and others, will not scale as well.  C #2 For cache coherency you'll need lots of bandwidth to achieve themD speeds needed to keep the CPUs fed.  Our coherency scheme is truly a distributed shared memory.  A #3 means that that 1:3 delay factor won't be nearly as bad as SunsF would like you to believe.  Now, ask Sun what they know about OOO, and* how they've implemented it in the UE10000.    B The general architecture direction is toward NUMA systems, and forE very good reason:  CPU speeds are increasing very significantly everyoE year, yet memory speeds are not.  Sun FUD would have you believe thatlD it is based on "old" technology, however their current bus isn't all that revolutionary either.  ; I personally would love to see a head-to-head comparison on.D performance of some real applications.  Maybe that'd shut Sun/Andrew up, but I doubt it.v  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/CompaqN- (get rid of the xxxx in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:36:33 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>* Subject: Re: Sun Hardware problems persist8 Message-ID: <no5qrsgke29h4mm0lbccgangn3ce0j9uap@4ax.com>  ? I try not to disparage bad "chip" batches.  These can happen toh? everyone.  The thing about this that really gets me, though, is F Andrew's attitude.  He can't ever state "Oops, our mistake...", he hasF to constantly say that everyone else is out to get them, causing their	 problems.     < On 5 Sep 2000 20:18:30 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) wrote:S  D >In article <OFB28310D8.637D1D67-ON88256951.00797E39@HEALTHNET.COM>,& > <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote: >>I >>Andrew, here we have accounts of several manufacturers' machines in thewK >>same room, all operating under the same conditions, all presumably lookedeI >>after by the same people following the same precautions. Only Sun's kit L >>suffers the problem. Environmental? Poor static procedures? Not unless Sun@ >>kit is noticeably more vulnerable than everyone else's. HigherM >>vulnerability to /anything/, especially common environmental conditions, iseJ >>still a design issue. Or are you arguing that there's a conspiracy whereJ >>otherwise competant operators deliberately turn into incompetant clutzes >>when they approach Sun boxes?a >>
 >>Spin on. >> >m >Spin is right.r >nG >Andrew would have us believe that static is the problem here.   On theo# >other hand, we see in the article,  >pJ >  http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/00/08/25/000825hnsunmemory.xml >n# >Sun Executive VP Shoemaker saying:e > G >  "According to Shoemaker, Sun hasn't been able to narrow the problem aF >  to any one specific cause. Sun believes the problems may have been F >  caused by a combination of factors, including defective components F >  from one of Sun's suppliers, poor packaging of the memory chips on 1 >  the system boards, and environmental factors."t >tB >Of course, all of these problems, except perhaps the last, can beB >directly attributable to slipshod engineering on the part of Sun. >iB >Now, did Sun warn their customers about the environmental factors? >necessary for the care and feeding of these sensitive E10000s g> >beforehand?  Even if they did, why has it taken months to get< >these issues resolved at some sites.  The article seems to : >indicate that some sites are still experiencing problems. >e >Andrew is just full of spin...  >k >>Shanec >> >> >> >> >>L >>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> on 09/01/2000
 >>08:31:09 AMi >> >>To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi >>cc:s >>- >>Subject:  Re: Sun Hardware problems persisty >> >># >>steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:r >> >>>.G >>> So come on Andrew, tell us what, in your opinion, is the thing thath >>causes5 >>> the majority of hardware failures on all systems.d >>>s >>A >>Although I have allready responded to Rob on this the answer isrC >>static. You I assume knew this as well and you I assume are using G >>good datacenter practice to reduce the incidence of static discharge.  >>@ >>Remember this will help all the systems you have regardless of	 >>vendor.i >>	 >>Regardsr >>Andrew Harrisonn >>Enterprise IT Architecti >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >f  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/CompaqP- (get rid of the xxxx in my address to e-mail)a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:00:08 -0400h& From: "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.com>+ Subject: Re: Sun's Bitter Harvest- Going OTO* Message-ID: <8piog2$nj$1@bob.news.rcn.net>  D David A Froble wrote in message <39B915B7.83851875@tsoft-inc.com>... >e > [snip] >hJ >I cannot resist.  Resistance is futile.  I have to ask.  Did you give her >another terminal/keyboard?l >p >Dave. >  >--c5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-045065 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 ? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com37 >T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486y  = You know, it just so happens I did.  I got a heartfelt speecha8 including such gems as "team player" and "organizational goals" and "on the same page".   I was moved. 8^)   -Miket   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:47:04 GMTt From: teroconnor@my-deja.com( Subject: Re: TT_ACCPORNAM for IP address) Message-ID: <8pir90$eh8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   / In article <srj18q9nljn179@corp.supernews.com>,s,   "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net> wrote:+ > <teroconnor@my-deja.com> wrote in messagee% > news:8parcd$m59$1@nnrp1.deja.com...t1 > > We use PORT=F$GETDVI("TT:","TT_ACCPORNAM") tog; > > allocate a local printer queue to users logging on from A > > different terminals. This works fine when users are using LATi6 > > connectivity - but now we are moving over to TCPIPA > > the symbol returns a blank string. Is there any other lexicale > > function I can use?p >tH > Please indicate what version of OpenVMS you are using, and what TCP/IP) > program, version, and ECOs are present.r >iH > For many combinations of the above the TT_ACCPORNAM will return the IP > address of the sender. >nF > If you are not seeing this, you may need to get an upgrade or an ECO to yours > TCP/IP program.p >iF > > As we use DHCP to allocate IP addresses a particular PC client may noti$ > > always have the same IP address. >  > That is more tricky. >rC > You need to have a WINS server that the PC client registers with.i >iC > Then the SAMBA NMBLOOKUP program should be able to extract the PCi	 name that  > goes with that I.P. Address. >N >t? VMS version is 5.5-2h4 and UCX is v4.2. I know these are "priorsD versions" but I'm constrained by a legacy application running on the server. % We have WINS running on an NT server.t   Tern    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:28:12 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog). Subject: Re: Why I hate C on VMS, reason #9321, Message-ID: <8pj16s$pdj@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <FF10CF4A7D7314AC.C2483661CFAA505F.FBD77080B3125D17@lp.airnews.net>, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:g >p& >Does anyone actually use /name=as_is?  K I've resorted to it when porting pathologically case challenged Unix code. cK Ie, when a zillion variables exist that vary only by case ("foo" vs. "FOO")nE it is easier to call upon /name=as_is than to rename several hundred l
 variables.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edus? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech f   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2000 15:05:50 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Xwindows tcpipS6 Message-ID: <8pisce$an0$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  G In article <8pcoaa$srp$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, thguest@nusun.jinr.ru writes:rL :How to open the X DISPLAY on my vax station, when the "export" and "setenv"L :commands do work, but the connection is not established. There	must be some, :command under vms to allow this connection.  A   The OpenVMS FAQ section entitled "DECW1.  How do I let someone eB   else display something on my workstation?" might be of interest.    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.509 ************************