1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 03 Aug 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 427       Contents:( Re: ??== DCPS re-install after C update. About Your Web Site ( RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate, Re: Apache on VMS - httpd.conf and .htaccess# Re: C v6.2 vs v6.4 volatile keyword > Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)B Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)B Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)B Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)B Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)1 Re: Converting Vax macro to Alpha - Error message  Re: DCL... Oops... Re: DCL... Oops... Re: DCL... Oops...* Re: DFWCUG Announcement regarding DEFCON 9 Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  Re: Dismounting a drive  RE: IA64 Rocks My World 6 Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)6 Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)6 Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)6 RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)6 Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)- Looking for a Pine.exe for TCPIP 5.x services 1 Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...) 1 Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...) 1 Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...) , Re: Now here's a challenge for you guys....!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!0 Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!P Re: problem deallocating a CD rom device when reflection used to allocate it is / Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 200 3 Re: Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 200 3 Re: Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 200 % Problem with LF/CR in OpenVMS reports  Re: Quorum Disk Questions  Re: Quorum Disk Questions  RCFoC 	 Re: RCFoC 	 Re: RCFoC  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ????  Re: Reboot to close a file ???? 5 Re: Reboot to close a file ????[OT] - CETS attendance  Run 3 phase PS on 2 phases?  Re: Run 3 phase PS on 2 phases? E Re: SUN 'super'computer [was Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate] " Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory] Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory] Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory]	 Re: VAX C 	 Re: VAX C & Re: Virus Alert at Compaq (2001.08.02) Re: WATCHER compile problems Re: WATCHER compile problems< Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to< Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:09:20 -0400 0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>1 Subject: Re: ??== DCPS re-install after C update. ; Message-ID: <020820011609208902%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>   D In article <aus-0208011941130001@wvia48.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>,- Hans M. Aus <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:   K > Some where in the tons of installation guides and release notes that I've L > read in the past several days, there is a statement that the C library has) > to be installed before installing DCPS.   G Yes, but the C runtime library comes with the operating system starting G with OpenVMS V6.1.  Only those running earlier versions need to install 1 the C Runtime Library kit before installing DCPS.   E This could be made clearer in the documentation.  The requirement for B the C Runtime Library kit was added when DCPS re-added support for# OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2 a few years ago.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Compaq Computer Corporation    ------------------------------   Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:19:24. From: "Jay Andersen" <BluePaint@flashmail.com> Subject: About Your Web Site9 Message-ID: <iss.240c.3b69cfe2.9ea27.1@mx2.east.saic.com>    Hello,  * We can send effective targeted bulk emails/ to market your business to potentials customers  at a great rate.  , Since 1996, we have been in the business of . direct email marketing.  Our service is simple/ and pointed.  Getting blind traffic to your web 1 site from search engine(s) in a passive approach  4 worked in the past, but with the explosive increase / in the number of dot coms in the U.S., web site ) operators need to become more "active" in  marketing their web businesses.   . For your consideration, here is what we offer:  . (1)  With a database of over 35 million fresh & potential customers, we can reach your* specific targets anywhere in the world, in
 any language.   , (2)  Our recipient database is being purged . and cleaned daily to ensure themost effective - result and value for your business promotion.   2 (3)  To ensure the most attentive reader audience,# we do not sell our email addresses.   $ IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT YOUR ONLINE& BUSINESS, SIMPLY REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE# OR CALL OUR EMAIL PROMOTION EXPERT   @ 213-437-0500.   ( ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  & This message is sent in compliance of  the new e-mail bill:   SECTION 301. Per Section 301, ! Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618,     $ Further transmissions to you by the $ sender of this email may be stopped % at no cost to you by sending a reply  $ to this email address with the word  "remove" in the subject line.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:46:18 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> 1 Subject: RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate R Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D49549@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,   H >>> Actually I did, I have pointed out that we have fixed the problem by re-designing the cache. <<<   K Well now, see - thats all many have been asking ie. Sun to admit there is a * problem and then come up with a real fix.   G Thats the first part of the solution ie. the technical parts of the CPU < cards have been fixed - I asumme by adding ECC to the cache?  D Now, the most important part is - can existing Customers call up andH schedule replacement of all their CPU's that have exhibited the problems over the last year or two ?    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]  Sent: August 2, 2001 8:14 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 0 Subject: Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate       jlsue wrote: > 5 > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:40:09 +0100, andrew harrison # > <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:  >  > >  > >jlsue wrote: 8 > >Bullshit. The WildFire memory performance white paper5 > >compares the local/remote memory latency with that 4 > >of an E10K  and concludes that the performance is2 > >very competitive. Sadly the number used for the8 > >E10K's memory latency was made up and the real number8 > >if it had been used would have made the WildFire look3 > >much less good, how could this mistake have been  > >made ???? > F > I see, and nobody could go and check these numbers?  As far as I canF > see, there was no coverup.  I'd also bet that they took numbers fromG > Sun that were publicly available at the time.  In any event, at worst H > it's almost as bad as claiming that they "put the dot in '.com'".  But > not quite. >   2 No they did not them made them up. Repeat after me0 Compaq made up the 600ns number 5 times. Sun did. not publish this number, so where did it come 
 from ?????  0 I agree there is no cover up, everyone with the / possible exception of yourself know whats going " on (now why isn't that a suprise).  @ > And it's interesting how you conveniently don't comment on the< > discussion of actual bad design coverup that causes system > availability problems. >   0 Actually I did, I have pointed out that we have - fixed the problem by re-designing the cache.    0 Where is the fix for WildFire, oh I forgot there4 isn't one unless you call pseudo-technical marketing white papers as a fix.  F > You're absolutely correct.  We outright documented that the "remote"@ > memory access would be 3x performance hit *before* they boughtA > systems...  It was available for system designers everywhere to 	 > review.  >   @ More bullshit, you documented the 3x and then in the same white @ paper you attempted to suggest that this would not be a problem A for a applications because the % of local accesses would be high  & enough to make this 3x a non problem.   @ Of course you subsequently had to disprove this claim yourselvesC when you published the second TPC-C result which was configured to  < ensure that there was an absolute minimum of remote traffic.  E Read your own white paper and compare the discussion on the WildFires = suitability for apps vs what you have actually been forced to  do to get the thing to perform.   9 Also documenting the 3x feature does not fix the problem   or did you think that it did.     G > And Sun told everyone that the cache would be a problem *before* they G > bought systems.   Oh wait, only if they signed an NDA first, and then C > only after they actually bought the systems, and then again, only  > after they had some downtime.  >  > >>> > >> When you get all of your stuff 100% correct, let me know. > >> > > 9 > >At the moment the onus is on you, you havn't managed a 9 > >single posting to this thread that hasn't contained at < > >least one glaring factual error. What was you excuse over; > >your IBM FUD, it was a long time ago and you forgot. Did ) > >you ever consider checking your facts.  > E > I say the same about you.  You've managed to squirm around but only F > take bits and pieces of truth to weave a long, drawn-out, very inept0 > story of what you think Compaq's problems are. >   2 Really ! again you are putting words into my mouth I 7 > And coming from where you do, that is definitely FUD.  >  > > I > >> Yeah... yeah.... yeah.  Rubbish yourself.  Did they submit benchmark K > >> results?  Yes.  Did it give *anyone* the ability to lookup and compare ' > >> against other results?  Yes again.  > >> > > ; > >Really  Compaq  published a performance white paper that @ > >included graphs of results that strangely omitted the results@ > >posted by other vendors. Any customer reading the white paper= > >would think that there was no need to go and look on SAP's @ > >web site or Oracle's web site for the actual table of resultsD > >they would expect that Compaqs table included all the competitive > >results.  > ' > Sure.  Whatever.  Only in your world.  >   0 Actually it only appears to be an aspect of your2 world that values fabrication and ommision as good behaviour.    5 What was your response to the ommision of Fujitsu in  3 Compaqs SAP leadership analysis. Let me refresh you  it was.   G "Well, you can hardly blame anyone for overlooking Fujitsu.  I mean, if ; they did mention them, the customers would just say "who?""      > > K > >> doesn't inspire me with a lot of confidence).  The funny thing is, I'd H > >> bet Sun marketing folks are just pissed-off that they didn't try itJ > >> first (or maybe they have, I don't care to look up all Sun claims for > >> the last 5 years).  > >> > > ? > >Don't try to attribute what may well be standard practice in  > >Compaq onto other vendors.  > F > Oh.  Right.  And who 'put the dot in .com'?  Sun?  Really?  Did theyE > publish white papers claiming this?  Did they produce documentation A > that proved that nobody else was responsible?  Did they include ! > information on all competitors?  >   6 Since Sun does drive the vast majority of the backbone4 ISP's and the majority of the largest commercial web$ sites it is a perfactly fair claim.   / Does our literature claim that we are the only   vendors doing this ????   0 Incedentally how typical that you would confuse 0 what is clearly a marketing slogan with supposed. facts that are published in what appears to be a technical white paper.  B > >You really are a stunningly bad advocate for Compaq why are you: > >bothering. The current TPC-C result used OPS as did the> > >previous result. However the first result released and then9 > >withdrawn after a week by Compaq did not and from that A > >result it was possible to measure the performance differential C > >between running an app configured to get arround the deficiences - > >of the WildFire NUMA architecture and not.  > = > The fact is, our customer says I need a box that can do 'x' H > performance, and I have $y to spend... can you help me?  The answer is > a resounding 'yes'!  > E > You can go on-and-on all you want, but it proves nothing other than  > you can type profusely.  >   5 Interesting, I have come up with concrete examples of 4 where you have missled your customers. All you seem * to be able to do in response is type BAHH.     > F > I sincerely doubt that *anybody* buys systems based on white papers.G > And only a few will purchase them based on benchmarks alone.  Most of E > those who have invested in the GS systems have been very happy with 2 > the result.  And OPS hasn't scared many of them.    ; More bullshit, a quick check through deja would have helped < you not fall into this trap either. You are forgetting the  > my GS140 is quicker than me GS320 posts one of which elicited 7 the wonderfull wait for Marvel response from Rob Young.      Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:57:04 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> 1 Subject: RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate R Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D55F69@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,   J >>> The number of 600ns quoted by Compaq as the idle latency of an E10K isG not a number that originates from Sun, it does not appear in any of our I white papers or product literature. The average latency of the first E10K J which had an 83 Mhz backplane was 505 ns, but by the time the Compaq whiteL paper was published Sun had been shipping E10K's with 100 Mhz backplanes for7 some time and the memory latency had dropped to ~440ns.   I Where the 600ns came from is anyones guess but its the lowest number that . makes Compaqs %local %remote calculation work. <<<   ? You say the 600ns number does not appear in any of your WP's???    What about this !!  > http://www.sun.com/solutions/hpc/performance/architecture.htmlK - For systems requiring up to 64 processors -- a sophisticated interconnect K called the Gigaplane-XB has been developed. Combining a 16x16 data crossbar K switch with 4-way parallel point-to-point address routers, the Gigaplane-XB F achieves bandwidth of up to 10.5 GB/s, latencies of 400 to 600 ns, and supports up to 64 processors. "    Back to you ..   :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]  Sent: August 1, 2001 9:47 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 0 Subject: Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate       JF Mezei wrote:  >  > andrew harrison wrote:9 > > Bullshit. The WildFire memory performance white paper=6 > > compares the local/remote memory latency with that5 > > of an E10K  and concludes that the performance isn3 > > very competitive. Sadly the number used for the 9 > > E10K's memory latency was made up and the real numbers9 > > if it had been used would have made the WildFire look 4 > > much less good, how could this mistake have been
 > > made ????u > J > Andrew, I reealise that vendors know very little about their competitors andl > will make up a lot ofe? > stuff to steer customers towards them instead of competitors.  > H > Perhaps you could do us a favour by posting Sun's official performance numbersmJ > as well as the Wildfire performance numbers that Sun gives its potentialJ > customers when trying to woo them to Sun. We could then compare what Sun isH > saying with what Compaq is saying, average both and get a decent idea. >   D The number of 600ns quoted by Compaq as the idle latency of an E10K G is not a number that originates from Sun, it does not appear in any of uC our white papers or product literature. The average latency of the e@ first E10K which had an 83 Mhz backplane was 505 ns, but by the @ time the Compaq white paper was published Sun had been shipping C E10K's with 100 Mhz backplanes for some time and the memory latencyc had dropped to ~440ns.  E Where the 600ns came from is anyones guess but its the lowest number e3 that makes Compaqs %local %remote calculation work.   I > However, just stating that Compaq doesn't use the right Sun performanceeF > numbers, and then you saying how Wildfire doesn't perform as well as CompaqL > claims doesn't really help the cause because as a reader of the message, I< > have no information to know who is right and who is wrong.  C Another data point may also help. Compaq claimed that they had SAP iB performance leadership based on the result of their SAP R4 2 tier @ benchmark run. This claim omitted to mention that Fujitsu had a D better result for the same 2 tier benchmark at the time that Compaq ? published their white paper (sloppy research perhaps). It also lA ommitted to point out that SAP R4 3 tier which most customers userB also has a benchmark which Compaq had not run and that the 3 tier ? benchmarks had a number of vendors supporting 8 x the number ofn; connected users that Compaq were able to support with their < 2 tier result. Many customers would not know the difference ? many customers would not bother to check Ideas or SAP to verifye  that the Compaq claim was false.       Regards  Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:50:56 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 8 Message-ID: <mpejmt8povlp66oiojvkobin5rm8qb1lai@4ax.com>  3 On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:14:17 +0100, andrew harrison ! <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:e   >o
 >jlsue wrote:i   >?A >> And it's interesting how you conveniently don't comment on the?= >> discussion of actual bad design coverup that causes systeme >> availability problems.  >> >?1 >Actually I did, I have pointed out that we have t. >fixed the problem by re-designing the cache.   ? Only *after* forcing people to sign an NDA to prevent them from . talking about the details.  This is extortion.   >u1 >Where is the fix for WildFire, oh I forgot thereY5 >isn't one unless you call pseudo-technical marketing] >white papers as a fix.e  ? I see.  So if you document a particular behavior, and then some0E competitor complains that it does exactly what it's documented to do,]& then you should fix it.  Yeah.  Right.  E In that case, I expect Sun to fix the command line in Solaris so thato it looks and acts like DCL.-   >-G >> You're absolutely correct.  We outright documented that the "remote" A >> memory access would be 3x performance hit *before* they boughtRB >> systems...  It was available for system designers everywhere to
 >> review. >> r >@A >More bullshit, you documented the 3x and then in the same white nA >paper you attempted to suggest that this would not be a problem  B >for a applications because the % of local accesses would be high ' >enough to make this 3x a non problem. ,  D It's only bullshit if it isn't correct for a hugh % of the apps.  Do= you have some statistics that prove otherwise?  Saying that ahA particular instance it didn't work isn't full proof.  You have togC prove that most apps don't use local accesses a  high percentage ofi	 the time.C   > A >Of course you subsequently had to disprove this claim yourselves D >when you published the second TPC-C result which was configured to = >ensure that there was an absolute minimum of remote traffic.   F Perhaps, but then TPC-C isn't necessarily a real-world app.  It's onlyC a benchmark.  And in any case, it's only one instance and certainlyy> doesn't claim that most of the accesses (for most of the apps,9 obviously) don't exhibit the behavior in the white paper.m  C There are apps out there in the real world using the GS systems whooC are pretty happy with the performance.  I guess that's what matters 	 the most.n   >hF >Read your own white paper and compare the discussion on the WildFires> >suitability for apps vs what you have actually been forced to  >do to get the thing to perform.  E Er... aside from TPC-C, do you have other examples?  If not, then youm* haven't come close to disprove any claims.   >e: >Also documenting the 3x feature does not fix the problem  >or did you think that it did.  F Well, if we tell people that this is the performance characteristic ofE the system, then there's nothing to fix.  They already know when they A buy them that this *could* be an issue in their environment.  And D guess what?  We have architecture services labs where they can setup> their application and try them out before buying the hardware.  F I think we've done all that can be done in the name of full disclosure in this regard.U     >> >< >> >Really  Compaq  published a performance white paper thatA >> >included graphs of results that strangely omitted the results A >> >posted by other vendors. Any customer reading the white paperT> >> >would think that there was no need to go and look on SAP'sA >> >web site or Oracle's web site for the actual table of results E >> >they would expect that Compaqs table included all the competitive  >> >results. >> m( >> Sure.  Whatever.  Only in your world. >> - >-1 >Actually it only appears to be an aspect of yourr3 >world that values fabrication and ommision as goodR >behaviour.  >i6 >What was your response to the ommision of Fujitsu in 4 >Compaqs SAP leadership analysis. Let me refresh you >it was. >>H >"Well, you can hardly blame anyone for overlooking Fujitsu.  I mean, if< >they did mention them, the customers would just say "who?""  F I suppose that was just a glib, tongue-in-cheek response to the issue,B but it does still stand as a decent argument.  One which you still haven't countered.  < Any customer interested in the SAP white paper would get theB information about our SAP performance they ask for.  They don't goB asking for all these other things you just pull out of your nether regions.  F If you've got customers who ask you how Sun Sparc IIIs perform against- Fujitsu systems, I'd like to hear about them.    >c >6 >> >L >> >> doesn't inspire me with a lot of confidence).  The funny thing is, I'dI >> >> bet Sun marketing folks are just pissed-off that they didn't try ittK >> >> first (or maybe they have, I don't care to look up all Sun claims fori >> >> the last 5 years). >> >>l >> >@ >> >Don't try to attribute what may well be standard practice in >> >Compaq onto other vendors. >>  G >> Oh.  Right.  And who 'put the dot in .com'?  Sun?  Really?  Did theywF >> publish white papers claiming this?  Did they produce documentationB >> that proved that nobody else was responsible?  Did they include" >> information on all competitors? >> ' >e7 >Since Sun does drive the vast majority of the backboned5 >ISP's and the majority of the largest commercial webe% >sites it is a perfactly fair claim. e > 0 >Does our literature claim that we are the only  >vendors doing this ????  C No, but to hold Sun to the same level of responsibility that you've @ just gone on (and on, and on, and on) about above, you should beF including other vendors.  Neglecting to mention them is tatamount to aB lie, as you've just tried to argue.  Of course, I don't agree with@ that argument, but I'm just using it against you to show you how ridiculous it is.l     >sC >> >You really are a stunningly bad advocate for Compaq why are youe; >> >bothering. The current TPC-C result used OPS as did the ? >> >previous result. However the first result released and thent: >> >withdrawn after a week by Compaq did not and from thatB >> >result it was possible to measure the performance differentialD >> >between running an app configured to get arround the deficiences. >> >of the WildFire NUMA architecture and not. >>  > >> The fact is, our customer says I need a box that can do 'x'I >> performance, and I have $y to spend... can you help me?  The answer ist >> a resounding 'yes'! >> uF >> You can go on-and-on all you want, but it proves nothing other than >> you can type profusely. >>   >w6 >Interesting, I have come up with concrete examples of5 >where you have missled your customers. All you seem e+ >to be able to do in response is type BAHH.s  E You have?  Which customer have I misled?  The fact is that you choose%C to pick nits so fine that most people didn't even notice, much lesslC care.  Even the ones that may be true are very insignificant, and IvE doubt that they caused someone to spend multi-bucks on something that ( didn't perform to customer expectations.   >r >t >> fG >> I sincerely doubt that *anybody* buys systems based on white papers.iH >> And only a few will purchase them based on benchmarks alone.  Most ofF >> those who have invested in the GS systems have been very happy with3 >> the result.  And OPS hasn't scared many of them.  >  > < >More bullshit, a quick check through deja would have helped= >you not fall into this trap either. You are forgetting the  i? >my GS140 is quicker than me GS320 posts one of which elicited d8 >the wonderfull wait for Marvel response from Rob Young.  C You keep making this stupid claim.  Since I'm tired of seeing it, I B decided to go back and search google myself.  I search for article containing either of:t   	gs320 and gs140 or 	wildfire and gs140t  < All I got that comes close is two entries.  Both were in theE fa.alpha-osf-managers newsgroup.  And neither of them had a "Wait forr? Marvel" comment from Rob Young.  His comments in that vein wereaE directed at your comments, which, on analysis, were nothing but smokea from a non-existent fire.i  C In the first posting, from a Mr.(?) Lee_Brewer, did an unscientificaF survey, which had, I think, 4 (whatever the word "few responses" means@ to him) responses - 3 very favorable, and one negative.  The one4 negative response was something like what you claim.  C In the other posting, from a vdantonio@whatever, it is just claimedrE that the GS320 is running slower than their GS140.  This could be duemB to *anything*, including a completely untuned implementation, poor spread on I/O, etc..  E In any case, *none* of these proves what I believe to be  your point:tF That GS-series (aka wildfire in some circles) systems suffer from poorF performance problems due to this 3x difference in memory access off of the QBB.  E Nobody has ever said that it'll work on everyone's workload.  Just as E I'm sure Sun has never said that their boxes are the fastest on everyaF workload - which is good as I'm sure we outperform Sun in quite a few.  E And to try to draw *any* kind of real conclusion other than what I'veiA said above is very laugh-worthy.  There are just no statistics tow prove your case.  C So your consistency in bringing up this hair-brained issue to provedB some point is completely lost, hopeless, going nowhere, and reallyA serves to discredit  you more.  And to add insult to injury, your F position as a competitor means you've got a very unbiased opinion, and' puts your company in a very poor light.    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 15:37:18 -0700 # From: paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty)h5 Subject: Re: Apache on VMS - httpd.conf and .htaccessh= Message-ID: <14ce1c21.0108021437.6c2d6c86@posting.google.com>   
 hello all.  4 thanks for the pointers.  i've got all this working.  F now on to getting the .htaccess file to accept the password and figure% out why my cgi scripts are dumping ina   can't start child process    errors.i   cheers,    nick  h paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty) wrote in message news:<14ce1c21.0107310913.59ed289a@posting.google.com>... > hello. > F > we're running vms 7.1 on an alphaserver 800 5/333 and have installedE > apache 1.3.12.  i am having a couple of problems with the dopcumentn6 > root direcive and the htpasswd.exe_alpha executable. > : > 1.  when i modify the document root directives from this > & > DocumentRoot "/apache$common/htdocs"% > <Directory "/apache$common/htdocs">u >  > to this values, i get a 404. > " > DocumentRoot "$3$dra4:[ht.docs]"! > <Directory "$3$dra4:[ht.docs]">e > G > i've installed apache on solaris, hpux and win32 and have never had ap6 > problem with changing the document root.  any ideas? > E > 2. i'm also having trouble creating a .htpasswd file by running thee  > htpasswd.exe_alpha executable. >  > > run htpasswd.exe_alpha xdssd > H > this should create a .htpasswd file for user xdss and would prompt for: > a password. it seems that no matter what i do i get this > B > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer > parameters > D > i have run .htpasswd on solaris, hpux and win32 and have not had a) > problem with the executable. any ideas?o >  > 	 > thanks,e >  > nick   ------------------------------   Date: 02 Aug 2001 18:47:44 GMT% From: "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com>t, Subject: Re: C v6.2 vs v6.4 volatile keyword0 Message-ID: <9kc78g$i7q@dispatch.concentric.net>  0 "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com> wrote in message* news:9kc000$9mq@dispatch.concentric.net...K > Our code makes extensive use of setjmp()/longjmp().  In Compaq C v6.2, weoF > could use the volatile keyword with variables that changed after theG > invocation of setjmp() to make sure that they maintained their values  afteraL > the longjmp().  In v6.4, volatile no longer works for this situation so weG > have gone back to our old method.  Does anyone know if there is a newM0 > keyword in v6.4 that works for this situation?1 I found out something about this problem.  We use4   a) volatile char *p;
 as opposed top b) char * volatile p;   D a) used to work but no longer does.  b) works now.  Is it correct toJ interpret a) as saying that the data that *p points to is volatile whereasC b) says that the value stored in p (the pointer value) is volatile?r Thanks,  Paul   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:33:11 GMTeB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>G Subject: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)h6 Message-ID: <XVha7.15458$ar1.55855@www.newsranger.com>  J In case anybody is interested, here are some comments and suggestions fromI myself. I am a VMS customer that works for an end-user company whose line!J of business is nothing to do with computers. Note that I absolutely am NOTJ speaking for my employer and that compared to the apparent size of most ofG the end-user companies that people here work for, the one I work for iswK small in comparison, so my viewpoints may be different as a result of that.c  G I've been creating this list since the announcement, and thought that IrI would now tidy it up and post it here in case it helps other customers inaE asking questions. I've also changed the list of things that I've beeno. watching for CPQ to do into a suggestion list.  I These are questions that I would personally like answers to before buying I new Alpha's (none are currently planned however). The suggestions are forVK improving my confidence in CPQ (and this is all about building confidence).M  
 Questions:  J 1) CPQ have publicly stated that VMS is been ported to IA64 and indeed VMSH Engineering are investigating how to do this. However, have CPQ actuallyI allocated the funds to the full port, and are VMS Engineering now able tol use these funds ?o  H There are claims here that members of VMS Engineering have been laid offG _after_ the porting announcement was made. Why ? The impression is beenoD given that current VMS Engineering work is an evaluation exercise toE determine what is required and that full porting has not yet started.mD _If_ the money has not actually been committed by CPQ Central to VMS9 Engineering, when will this funding actually take place ?t  H 2) There have been suggestions in C.O.V that VMS was not to be ported toH IA64 and that CPQ changed it's mind at the last minute. It would be niceL to see an outright denial of this suggestion by CPQ. If any evidence becomesB available to support this suggestion, then CPQ will suffer a major credibility problem.  C 3) CPQ management claim that the answer to "the Alpha question" was E unexpected, but what was the actual question ? Was it "If we give you K reasonable funds, can you keep Alpha competitive ?" or was it (for example)5M "If we cut your budget in half and lay off your best engineers, can you stillnI keep Alpha competitive ?". Given the major pro-Alpha statements been madeaK prior to the announcement, then this is important as it may impact on CPQ'seJ credibility in the eye of the customer for future dealings if the customer3 invests in something that may become unfashionable.h  G 4) It's been claimed in C.O.V that some _current_ controllers are to befF de-supported within a couple of years and some configurations by earlyK 2002. Why is this short timescale (if it's the full picture) now acceptablewH practice and does CPQ have _any_ clue about the damage this does to it's2 image in the eye of the traditional VMS customer ?  K 5) Rdb. I do not use Rdb, and at my current employer, it is unlikely that IuE ever will. As a long standing VMS customer however, I am aware of thehL importance that other customers place on it been available. The announcementI that Rdb will be ported to IA64 VMS should have been made on the same daysK of the porting announcement, and it should certainly have been made by now.nI This _is_ very damaging as it gives the image that the VMS port will be a B port in name only, with few layered products actually been ported.  C The longer the announcement is delayed that Rdb will be ported, theeH stronger the signal is been sent is that this will not be a full port ofI the VMS environment. It's also quite worrying as it makes you wonder just 0 who CPQ's target customer base is with IA64 VMS.   Suggestions:  K 1) Why hasn't CPQ already contacted every Alpha customer by letter and then8( maybe followed it up with a phone call ?  H CPQ may or may not know _all_ it's Alpha customers, but it does know whoC it's maintainence contract customers are. It needs to be contactingoF the customer base and continue doing it on a regular basis in order to  keep CPQ in the customer's mind.  @ Followup contacts could be in the form of a newsletter detailingB (for example) the latest 3rd party or CPQ products which have beenB committed to porting to IA64 VMS. It would give an image of a portD that was (a) actually progressing and (b) have enough products on itG to be commercially viable. These contacts need to be happening at leasta every 2 to 3 months.  F 2) CPQ _really_ have got to respond to Sun; Sun's campaign is going to= cause serious damage otherwise. From the latest Sun postcard:   C "Platforms that deliver reliability, scalability and availability -a vital for today's business."  E "Sun customers sleep easy, knowing their investment is protected, andu that Sun won't let them down."  E These used to be Digital's phrases. And before anybody points out thenA technical differences between Sun and VMS, then (a) this does notyE matter; it only matters what the person with the cheque book _thinks_ D is true, and (b) other systems are catching up somewhat with VMS andF for less committed VMS people, these other systems may be good enough.  H I enjoy been a VMS person; I would like to still be one in 5 years time.  @ [And once again, I'm just speaking for myself, not my employer.]   Simon.   -- a; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPtK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered asE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:07:34 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)K Subject: Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one) 2 Message-ID: <Gaka7.561$Yx2.10369@news.cpqcorp.net>  { In article <XVha7.15458$ar1.55855@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:s  E   Thank you for your comments, I will address these -- those commentswD   that I can address, of course -- in materials that I am presently D   working on.  Further, I will ensure that your posting is directly <   seen by the appropriate folks here in OpenVMS Engineering.  B   The CETS2001 event will have answers to some of these questions.C   Preparations for the CETS2001 event are part of what will occupy .C   large tracts of my time over the next weeks.  (Those parts where  D   I am not working on porting to IPF or on updating Alpha or on. :-)  D   Upcoming issues of the OpenVMS Times newsletter will certainly be E   of interest -- if you do not already subscribe, please consider it.s  D   Various direct customer communications -- there are communicationsF   currently in progress and communications that are currently pending @   customer distribution -- that are being delivered directly to B   customers and ISVs, and communcations efforts that are underway.  B   If your employer would be interested in discussing this, please    contact me offline.U     Also see:>9     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms.html>     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 02 Aug 2001 22:23:10 GMT% From: "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com>eK Subject: Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)g0 Message-ID: <9kcjse$7gu@dispatch.concentric.net>  K > 5) Rdb. I do not use Rdb, and at my current employer, it is unlikely thaty I G > ever will. As a long standing VMS customer however, I am aware of the.A > importance that other customers place on it been available. The" announcementK > that Rdb will be ported to IA64 VMS should have been made on the same dayeH > of the porting announcement, and it should certainly have been made by now.K > This _is_ very damaging as it gives the image that the VMS port will be auD > port in name only, with few layered products actually been ported. >oE > The longer the announcement is delayed that Rdb will be ported, the J > stronger the signal is been sent is that this will not be a full port ofK > the VMS environment. It's also quite worrying as it makes you wonder just 2 > who CPQ's target customer base is with IA64 VMS.= Oracle owns Rdb, why would CPQ have anything to say about it?y Paul   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:56:28 -0500% From: "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net>>K Subject: Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)p5 Message-ID: <m9qa7.20197$j02.286338@news.goodnet.com>p  D Paul Dembry wrote in message <9kcjse$7gu@dispatch.concentric.net>...L >> 5) Rdb. I do not use Rdb, and at my current employer, it is unlikely that >IH >> ever will. As a long standing VMS customer however, I am aware of theB >> importance that other customers place on it been available. The
 >announcementrL >> that Rdb will be ported to IA64 VMS should have been made on the same dayI >> of the porting announcement, and it should certainly have been made by? >now. L >> This _is_ very damaging as it gives the image that the VMS port will be aE >> port in name only, with few layered products actually been ported.e >>  .......c >g> >Oracle owns Rdb, why would CPQ have anything to say about it? >Paul  >     I Because Compaq should have made sure to talk to Oracle about it, gotten a E porting agreement, and arranged for Oracle to announce that fact veryl% shortly after the Q dropped the bomb.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:03:37 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eK Subject: Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one) , Message-ID: <3B6A30A8.D2935D73@videotron.ca>   Paul Dembry wrote:? > Oracle owns Rdb, why would CPQ have anything to say about it?e > Paul  N Compaq doesn't hesitate to brag about how Oracle has a great realtionship withM Compaq and how Oracle has great coomitment to Tru64. (as was witnessed duringhF the wildfire launch some time ago). If Compaq and Oracle are such goodJ buddies, then Compaq should have convinced Oracle to stand behind Compaq'sR decision to kill Alpha and announce the porting of the rdb legacy product to IA64.  J I do not how know much ahead of the announcement the top Compaq execs wereH working on planning Alpha's murder, but the fact that there is so little& information can lead to 2 conclusions:  M -truly a last minute decision , so no advance planning, and no work with ISVss% sucha s Oracle prior to announcement.s  N -don't really care about VMS so the fact that no ISV were ready to announce onN day 1 that they woudl port to IA64-VMS was not a show stopper for Compaq whoseJ goal was to announce the dropping of Alpha and the wad of money from Intel2 that would allow Compaq to buy software/solutions.  L But now that the murder has been made and Alpha is in a come on life supportJ at the hospital for a few years, what remains to be seen is whether CompaqI starts to work with ISVs to get them to get serious. And my guess is that M until the VMS engineers are further ahead in their port with some preliminaryaT bootable system, it is a bit pointless to engage the ISVs in their porting projects.  N Had Compaq worked secretely behind the scenes to port VMS to IA64 *BEFORE* theK announcement, then by the time the announcement is made, it might have been4J possible to quickly get ISVs to announce their support is IA64-VMS becauseL each ISV would then be able to evaluate some beta of VMS on IA64 and have an( idea of the costs/issues of porting VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:07:55 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>: Subject: Re: Converting Vax macro to Alpha - Error message8 Message-ID: <muijmtcd4if46250h9ljsdh8tq12k6pekg@4ax.com>  F On 1 Aug 2001 22:24:22 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   L >> These are not error messages, they are just informationals (check out the >> "-I-"O >> in the middle of the message). Your Alpha will probably pay a small run-timeSM >> penalty for leaving the label unaligned but this is not a big deal for thenO >> occasional user message (e.g. file lock msg). However, it wouldn't be a goodb> >> idea to reference this location 10,000 times within a loop. >rF >But fixing them is good programming training, and will smooth the way3 >for the next person who might notice the "errors".s >e& >Happiness is a silent compilation :-)  
 Sometimes.  > I remember a problem, way back, with compiling a program named4 FOR005.FOR (or was it FOR006 - something like that).  B That was the standard input unit for the compiler and it just kept1 swallowing up input you'd type into the terminal.l  C (I realize my mind is kind of fuzzy on this - it was about 15 yearsy ago that I saw it.)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:52:32 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i Subject: Re: DCL... Oops...d, Message-ID: <3B69935D.99E6949E@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:H > >a VAX to work on and JF Mezei did not mention if the CONTINUE command3 > >brought you back to the HELP executable or not.    @ Yep, on VAX, the CONTINUE did bring me back to the HELP command.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:04:32 -0700e< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> Subject: Re: DCL... Oops...e) Message-ID: <3B69DC80.9A0AEAC4@intel.com>w  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  K > Actually, David North encountered this problem and asked me to verify it.aL > Both he and I first thought it was DECthreads related but I later verifuedJ > that it was any user image.  I've already entered a service request with	 > Conpaq./  K Here's one more data point...from the past...  CSC SRQ number C961216-6839, I submitted 16-DEC-1996.  The problem was reported to me by my colleague as K we were doing our first ports from VAX to Alpha.  His e-mail to me is datedtL 6-DEC-1996.  OK, so it took me a few days to generate a report to CSC... ;-pK BTW, the only response I got back from CSC was (a) the problem had not been"L previously reported so no fix, and (b) that there would be an SPR submitted.7 As my colleague said, "perhaps if it had been (PR2)"...t   -Ken  I P.S. Our application developers had routinely used the ability to Ctrl-Y,nJ      (re-)DEFINE some logical, CONTINUE, on the VAX so this feature, while-      not critical, _was_ missed on the Alpha.   T ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------C (PR3) Ctrl-Y, $Define, $Continue results in ACCVIO on OpenVMS/Alphai      SYNOPSIS:     ========H         Interrupting an  image  with  Ctrl/Y,  issuing  the  DCL  DEFINEH     command,  and then CONTINUE, always results in an ACCVIO on OpenVMS/
     Alpha.       BACKGROUND:      ==========H         We're   running    a    mixed-interconnect,   mixed-architectureH     VMScluster  with the VAX nodes at VMS 6.2 and the Alpha nodes at VMSH     6.2-1H3.   (The  reported  problem  has  also   been   observed   on     OpenVMS/Alpha 7.0.)        PROBLEM:     =======eH         When executing an image, it  is sometimes desirable to interruptH     the  image with Ctrl/Y, issue the DCL command DEFINE (which does notH     itself activate an image), and then continue with the newly  definedH     logical  name  in  the process (or job) logical name table.  This isH     documented to work, and does  work  on the VAXen.  However, wheneverH     this is attempted on the Alpha, whether with a "native" VMS image orH     a  user-written  image,  the  CONTINUE results  in  an  ACCVIO  (and     termination of the image).  H         The following simple example  demonstrates  the  problem, and is     100% reproducible.  O ===============================================================================e $ create junk.tm1  aaa- bbb-
  Interrupt   $ define xxx yyy
 $ continue  B   Improperly handled condition, bad stack or no handler specified.)     Signal arguments:   Number = 00000005S)                         Name   = 0000000Ch)                                  00010000w)                                  00000001e)                                  00000000r)                                  00000012f       Register dump:J     R0  = 0000000000000000  R1  = 000000007FF9D778  R2  = 0000000000000000J     R3  = 0000000000000004  R4  = 0000000000000000  R5  = 0000000000000000J     R6  = 000000007FF9D768  R7  = 000000007FF9D768  R8  = 000000007FF9BD58J     R9  = 000000007FF9BF60  R10 = 000000007FF9DFB0  R11 = 000000007FFBE3E0J     R12 = 000000007ED8D8EC  R13 = 000000007EED8E60  R14 = 000000007ED8D8D8J     R15 = 000000007EED7DA0  R16 = 000000000000001B  R17 = 0000000000000000J     R18 = 000000007FF9D770  R19 = 0000000000000000  R20 = FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF8J     R21 = FFFFFFFFFFFFFF94  R22 = 0000000000000001  R23 = 7FF9C40000000010J     R24 = 0000000000000008  R25 = 0000000000000000  R26 = 000000007FF9DFB0J     R27 = 0000000000000008  R28 = 7FF9D24300000003  R29 = 7EF23ADA0000000BJ     SP  = 000000007FF9BD15  PC  = 7FF9D24300000000  PS  = 1500000000000012Z %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual address=0000000C, PC=00000012, PS=00000002n $oO ===============================================================================n    H         DEFINE (and ASSIGN) is  the  only  command  we have found so farH     that   exhibits  this  behaviour.   Nevertheless,  DEFINE  is   usedH     extensively in just this way in our environment and it is  having  a&     negative impact on our operations.  E         Is there an ECO or a known work-around for this misbehaviour?a               Thanks, Kenn --H  Kenneth H. Fairfield       |  Internet: Fairfield@Slc.Slac.Stanford.Edu7  SLAC, P.O.Box 4349, MS 46  |  DECnet:   SLC::FAIRFIELDeH  Stanford, CA   94309       |  Voice:    415-926-2924  FAX: 415-926-3515H  -----------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:14:59 -0700 < From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> Subject: Re: DCL... Oops...t) Message-ID: <3B69ED03.2971CC8F@intel.com>v  L One last note on this bug.  There is a DSNlink article that acknowledges the' problem in the OpenVMS database titled,l  G    "DEFINE Command Corrupts Image Context Preventing CONTINUE Commands"n  K I have a copy of it with "Last Technical Review: 23-DEC-1996", although thesL copy currently in the database has a revew date of 8-MAY-1997.  In any case,@ VMS Engineering have been sitting on this one for 4 1/2 years...      -Kenu --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 23:44:08 -0500o From: eccm <eccm@swbell.net>3 Subject: Re: DFWCUG Announcement regarding DEFCON 9t* Message-ID: <3B6B7D98.D9E90578@swbell.net>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:a >  > L > Any OS that can survive repeated intrusive attempts from Notorious Belgian& > Hacker Cedric Zool is OK in my book! > G > Umm, did you see Zool in Lost Wages? Rumour has it he was among thoser > present...  C I ran into Zool, he was in line in front of me. He tried to pay the D $50 registration in Belgian Francs! It was quite a scene, he tauntedB them in a mixture of Flemish and Flanders when they disparaged hisD cash, which was hilarious because they had no idea what he said, butC one of them was something like "you are from dirty cow toungue lickeC you???" I guess my Belgian is real bad, Belgian is a combination oflD Dutch and French, and some things just don't translate anyway. I wasD laughing my ass off. He started staring at me because I was laughingC so hard, and it looked like the registration clerk was about to askeA what was so funny, so I threw down a $50 and he gave up about $45dB worth of BFr. He was hacking for the green team, real arrogant oldC geezer, but he did break machine after machine, he was very good ataE getting into linux and microsoft machines. What convinced me how goodaF he was, he made minimal use of common tools, only to scan and find his@ targets, and then he had his own code to run at the targets, and9 modified it a few times too. He had one team's BSD servertB flood-pinging it's own hackers' pc's for about 5 minutes till they0 figured it out. I'd hate to piss him off anyway.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:50:28 -0600o$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive) Message-ID: <3B6992E4.1C7CD417@cha.ab.ca>    $ mc sysmany SYSMAN> set env/clus+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:i$         Clusterwide on local cluster<         Username Z99999       will be used on nonlocal nodes   SYSMAN> do sho dev dsa6:- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node LeP Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntP  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntP DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13   4A $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)(A $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)m- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node JoP Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntP  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntP DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13   4A $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      1  (member of DSA6:) A $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)t- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HhP Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntP  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntP DSA6:                   Mounted              0  (remote mount)                 4- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node MbP Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntP  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntP DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13   4A $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)eA $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)u- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node K P Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntP  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntP DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13   4A $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)sA $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)t SYSMAN>u SYSMAN> do show dev/fil dsa6:c- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ld  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.70m  # Process name      PID     File name .                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Jt  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.75p  # Process name      PID     File name-.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Hn3 %SYSTEM-F-NOTFILEDEV, device is not file structuredc- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Mn  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:23.38f  # Process name      PID     File namel.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node K   9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:24.22c  # Process name      PID     File namee.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 SYSMAN>        Robert Deininger wrote:t  Q > In article <3B698C12.3D22D71F@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:u >mK > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our plans.  All I > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users are accessing thehJ > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Trans Count" stillK > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone suggest aseI > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive and beinge > > accessed?  TIA.  >nH > What does show device/file say about this disk?  Do this on every node > that has the disk mounted. > B > I have seen NFS server software hold on to disks in subtle ways. >m > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.coms   -- LeeP  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityy? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC-4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:12:19 -0400 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive> Message-ID: <OFD8F9738C.CED70903-ON85256A9C.0063E4BD@acml.com>  = then it looks like it's just mounted clusterwide, but no opene  files.  Dismount it cluster wide   dismount/cluster        a                                                                                                   a                     Lee Y T Mah                                                                  ta                     <lytmah@cha.a                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      aa                     b.ca>                        cc:                                             da                                          Subject:     Re: Dismounting a drive                     a                     08/02/2001                                                                   da                     01:50 PM                                                                     -a                                                                                                  ia                                                                                                  -       $ mc sysmanD SYSMAN> set env/clus+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:d$         Clusterwide on local cluster<         Username Z99999       will be used on nonlocal nodes   SYSMAN> do sho dev dsa6:- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Lr8 Device                  Device           Error    Volume Free  Trans Mnta8  Name                   Status           Count     Label Blocks Count Cnt3 DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6d 3712400    13   4nA $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)dA $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) - %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ji8 Device                  Device           Error    Volume Free  Trans Mnto8  Name                   Status           Count     Label Blocks Count Cnt3 DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6  3712400    13   4rA $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      1  (member of DSA6:)nA $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)n- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ht8 Device                  Device           Error    Volume Free  Trans Mnta8  Name                   Status           Count     Label Blocks Count Cnt> DSA6:                   Mounted              0  (remote mount) 4w- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ms8 Device                  Device           Error    Volume Free  Trans Mntm8  Name                   Status           Count     Label Blocks Count Cnt3 DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6l 3712400    13   4 A $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)eA $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) - %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ku8 Device                  Device           Error    Volume Free  Trans Mntv8  Name                   Status           Count     Label Blocks Count Cnt3 DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6l 3712400    13   4.A $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)eA $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)2 SYSMAN>: SYSMAN> do show dev/fil dsa6:s- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Le  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.70k  # Process name      PID     File name .                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ju  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.75s  # Process name      PID     File namer.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HB3 %SYSTEM-F-NOTFILEDEV, device is not file structured - %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Mn  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:23.38:  # Process name      PID     File namem.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1- %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node K.  9 Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:24.22j  # Process name      PID     File namee.                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 SYSMAN>z       Robert Deininger wrote:r  7 > In article <3B698C12.3D22D71F@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah  <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:: >3? > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our: plans.  Allo; > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users aren
 accessing the,= > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Transi Count" still@ > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone
 suggest as? > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive-	 and being- > > accessed?  TIA.  >,= > What does show device/file say about this disk?  Do this onn
 every node > that has the disk mounted. >.< > I have seen NFS server software hold on to disks in subtle ways.n >b > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comn   -- Leep  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityh? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCn4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9             F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containX@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendede= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringr3 this message to the intended recipient, any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,nA please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyN# all copies of the original message.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:09:00 GMT-1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>-  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive2 Message-ID: <3B6997FB.66125F8D@clarityconnect.com>  < For all nodes that have this volume mounted do the following  	 $ ANA/SYSs SET OUTPUT CHAN.LISE SHOW PROCESS/CHANNEL ALL EXIT5 $ SEARCH CHAN.LIS "Extended PID: ","DSA6:"/OUTPUT=X.X  $ SEARCH X.X "DSA6:"/WIN=(1,1)D If there are no matches here then you may dismount DSA6 on this nodeH otherwise the output should show what process has an open channel to theF disk and you'll need to get that process to close the channel.  How to? do this will depend on what application the process is running.   D Remember to DELETE CHAN.LIS.,X.X. before moving on to the next node.     Lee Y T Mah wrote: > I > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our plans.  AlleG > the data files on it have been deleted and no users are accessing thepH > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Trans Count" stillI > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone suggest asAG > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive and beingt > accessed?  TIA.s > 3 > K _DSA6:[000000] $ dir/size/date dsa6:[000000...]  >  > Directory DSA6:[000000]a > < > 000000.DIR;1                    3  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.218 > BACKUP.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.218 > BADBLK.SYS;1                5  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.218 > BADLOG.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.218 > BITMAP.SYS;1              185  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21: > CONTIN.SYS;1                  0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.219 > CORIMG.SYS;1                 0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.2107 > INDEXF.SYS;1           46135  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21 9 > SECURITY.SYS;1               1   5-DEC-1994 02:14:22.44 ; > VOLSET.SYS;1                   0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.210 > " > Total of 10 files, 46329 blocks. > & > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show device dsa6: > C > Device               Device           Error   Volume         Free9 > Trans  MntG >  Name                 Status            Count   Label          Blocks  > Count  Cnt5 > DSA6:              Mounted              0       SS6  > 3712400    13    4C > $2$DUA14:   (HSC001)   ShadowSetMember      0   (member of DSA6:)0I > $2$DUA36:                (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)0 > . > K _DSA6:[000000] $ analyze/disk/repair dsa6:A > Analyze/Disk_Structure/Repair for _DSA6: started on  2-AUG-20010
 > 11:08:36.88  > 0 > %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS$ > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > ( > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show dev/file dsa6: > ; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:09:42.47S > % > Process name      PID     File name=0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 > K _DSA6:[000000] $ >  > -- > Lee= > = > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health AuthorityEA > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9n   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:40:12 GMTe1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>2  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive2 Message-ID: <3B699F4C.F2EEF9DC@clarityconnect.com>  C The Trans count reflects open channels in this case.  If you try toOG dismount it with open channels it won't dismount.  Pathworks could have5E open channels, symbionts could have open channels, etc. etc.  An open E channel does not imply an open file.  Open files are a subset of openv	 channels.t   William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:i > ? > then it looks like it's just mounted clusterwide, but no openl" > files.  Dismount it cluster wide >  > dismount/cluster >  > ! >                     Lee Y T Mah M >                     <lytmah@cha.a                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 >                     b.ca>                        cc:O >                                          Subject:     Re: Dismounting a drive   >                     08/02/2001 >                     01:50 PM >  >  > 
 > $ mc sysmana > SYSMAN> set env/clus- > %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:j& >         Clusterwide on local cluster> >         Username Z99999       will be used on nonlocal nodes >  > SYSMAN> do sho dev dsa6:/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node L : > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnty: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6t > 3712400    13   4tC > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) C > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) / > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ji: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnto: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6s > 3712400    13   4.C > $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      1  (member of DSA6:)kC > $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)s/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ho: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnte: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt@ > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  (remote mount) > 4 / > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ma: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnte: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6e > 3712400    13   4aC > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)2C > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)i/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node K.: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mntr: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6: > 3712400    13   4oC > $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)EC > $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)s	 > SYSMAN>C > SYSMAN> do show dev/fil dsa6:t/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node L  > ; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.70d > % > Process name      PID     File nameD0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node J  > ; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.75u > % > Process name      PID     File name 0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node H 5 > %SYSTEM-F-NOTFILEDEV, device is not file structured4/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Mf > ; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:23.38  > % > Process name      PID     File namet0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node KN > ; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:24.22c > % > Process name      PID     File namee0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1	 > SYSMAN>- >  > Robert Deininger wrote:d > 9 > > In article <3B698C12.3D22D71F@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah  > <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:  > > A > > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in ourt
 > plans.  All = > > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users are  > accessing the ? > > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Trans  > Count" stillB > > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone > suggest asA > > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive  > and beings > > > accessed?  TIA.  > > ? > > What does show device/file say about this disk?  Do this on  > every node > > that has the disk mounted. > > > > > I have seen NFS server software hold on to disks in subtle > ways.m > >f > > -- > > Robert Deininger > > rdeininger@mindspring.comm >  > -- > LeeY > = > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health AuthorityxA > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9m > H > ______________________________________________________________________= >  The information contained in this transmission may contain B > privileged and confidential information and is intended only forC > the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedS? > recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 5 > this message to the intended recipient, any review,eB > dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communicationA > is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,sC > please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyI% > all copies of the original message.0   -- 0D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:13:13 -0400 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive> Message-ID: <OFED026D63.DDD00E97-ON85256A9C.00698E74@acml.com>  & got me there - I forgot about that....      d                                                                                                     d                     "Mark D. Jilson"                                                                d                     <jilly@clarityco                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      d                     nnect.com>                      cc:                                             d                                             Subject:     Re: Dismounting a drive                    d                     08/02/2001 02:40                                                                d                     PM                                                                              d                                                                                                     d                                                                                                           @ The Trans count reflects open channels in this case.  If you try to< dismount it with open channels it won't dismount.  Pathworks
 could have@ open channels, symbionts could have open channels, etc. etc.  An open@ channel does not imply an open file.  Open files are a subset of open	 channels.    William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:  > ? > then it looks like it's just mounted clusterwide, but no open " > files.  Dismount it cluster wide >e > dismount/cluster >  >r! >                     Lee Y T Mah 6 >                     <lytmah@cha.a                To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 >                     b.ca>                        cc:; >                                          Subject:     Re:  Dismounting a drive   >                     08/02/2001 >                     01:50 PM >  >  > 
 > $ mc sysman  > SYSMAN> set env/clus- > %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment: & >         Clusterwide on local cluster> >         Username Z99999       will be used on nonlocal nodes >w > SYSMAN> do sho dev dsa6:/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ln: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mntr: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6  > 3712400    13   46< > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)< > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Jm: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnt : >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6  > 3712400    13   4 < > $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      1  (member of DSA6:)< > $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HS: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnt : >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt@ > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  (remote mount) > 4 / > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node MT: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mnt : >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6  > 3712400    13   4 < > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)< > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node Ko: > Device                  Device           Error    Volume > Free  Trans Mntr: >  Name                   Status           Count     Label > Blocks Count Cnt5 > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6S > 3712400    13   4.< > $2$DUA14:     (HSC001)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)< > $2$DUA36:          (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)	 > SYSMAN>M > SYSMAN> do show dev/fil dsa6:A/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node L  >e; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.70a > % > Process name      PID     File name 0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node J  >i; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:22.75  > % > Process name      PID     File name00 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node H 5 > %SYSTEM-F-NOTFILEDEV, device is not file structuredo/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node M  >A; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:23.38  > % > Process name      PID     File nameS0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1/ > %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node K  >4; > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:49:24.22  > % > Process name      PID     File namez0 >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1	 > SYSMAN>2 >1 > Robert Deininger wrote:  >t9 > > In article <3B698C12.3D22D71F@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T MahS > <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:u > >lA > > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our 
 > plans.  All = > > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users arer > accessing thel? > > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Transe > Count" still; > > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can- anyone > suggest asA > > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive  > and being  > > > accessed?  TIA.t > >s? > > What does show device/file say about this disk?  Do this ons > every node > > that has the disk mounted. > > > > > I have seen NFS server software hold on to disks in subtle > ways.  > >p > > -- > > Robert Deininger > > rdeininger@mindspring.comf >a > -- > Lee  > = > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority:A > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9o >a >oF ______________________________________________________________________= >  The information contained in this transmission may containn> > privileged and confidential information and is intended only for : > the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intended? > recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringh5 > this message to the intended recipient, any review,e4 > dissemination, distribution or duplication of this
 communicationiA > is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,a; > please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail andi destroyt% > all copies of the original message.g   --; Jilly     - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley -  Lockwood, NY@      - jilly@clarityconnect.com               - Brett Bodine fan;      - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com            - since 1975 or soI0      - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -          F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containn@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intended = recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringe3 this message to the intended recipient, any review,t@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy # all copies of the original message.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:25:39 -0600w$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive) Message-ID: <3B69A932.AB392F62@cha.ab.ca>r  M Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of the N nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontI and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made no0M difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now, : I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results.  " M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6:  L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans Mnt L  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt2L DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 4oA $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)eA $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)   ) M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6: - %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismountedB/ %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volumed  G Thanks to all who replied.  I guess I'll just have to reboot the nodes.S     "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:e  > > For all nodes that have this volume mounted do the following >  > $ ANA/SYSA > SET OUTPUT CHAN.LIS0 > SHOW PROCESS/CHANNEL ALL > EXIT7 > $ SEARCH CHAN.LIS "Extended PID: ","DSA6:"/OUTPUT=X.XG  > $ SEARCH X.X "DSA6:"/WIN=(1,1)F > If there are no matches here then you may dismount DSA6 on this nodeJ > otherwise the output should show what process has an open channel to theH > disk and you'll need to get that process to close the channel.  How toA > do this will depend on what application the process is running.  >DF > Remember to DELETE CHAN.LIS.,X.X. before moving on to the next node. >C > Lee Y T Mah wrote: > > K > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our plans.  All7I > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users are accessing the-J > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Trans Count" stillK > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone suggest asoI > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive and beingl > > accessed?  TIA.  > > 5 > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ dir/size/date dsa6:[000000...]0 > >: > > Directory DSA6:[000000]l > ><> > > 000000.DIR;1                    3  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21: > > BACKUP.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21: > > BADBLK.SYS;1                5  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21: > > BADLOG.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21: > > BITMAP.SYS;1              185  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21< > > CONTIN.SYS;1                  0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21; > > CORIMG.SYS;1                 0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21o9 > > INDEXF.SYS;1           46135  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21m; > > SECURITY.SYS;1               1   5-DEC-1994 02:14:22.44e= > > VOLSET.SYS;1                   0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21e > > $ > > Total of 10 files, 46329 blocks. > > ( > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show device dsa6: > > E > > Device               Device           Error   Volume         Free  > > Trans  MntI > >  Name                 Status            Count   Label          Blocks1 > > Count  Cnt7 > > DSA6:              Mounted              0       SS6e > > 3712400    13    4E > > $2$DUA14:   (HSC001)   ShadowSetMember      0   (member of DSA6:)tK > > $2$DUA36:                (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)M > >o0 > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ analyze/disk/repair dsa6:C > > Analyze/Disk_Structure/Repair for _DSA6: started on  2-AUG-2001o > > 11:08:36.88n > >y2 > > %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS& > > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > > * > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show dev/file dsa6: > > = > > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:09:42.47m > > ' > > Process name      PID     File named2 > >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ > >n > > -- > > Lee  > > ? > > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority C > > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCu8 > > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWC > > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9  >  > --H > Jilly   - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NYL >         - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fanL >         - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since 1975 or so5 >         - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -s   -- Lee   ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority)? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCe4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9t   ------------------------------   Date: 2 AUG 2001 20:44:00 GMT + From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>2  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive1 Message-ID: <2AUG01.20440081@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>C  % Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:DO > Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of the P > nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontK > and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made no O > difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now,h< > I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results. >   $ > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6: >   N > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > MntnN >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > Cnt N > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 > 4SC > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)eC > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)  >  e+ > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6:N/ > %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismounted 1 > %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volumei  G Note the last line.  You need to find those 12 devices that are spoolede to the volume.  Start with  )   $ pipe show dev | sear sys$pipe spoolede   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVAH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:47:17 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: Dismounting a driveL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0208011647170001@user-2ive64f.dialup.mindspring.com>  O In article <3B69A932.AB392F62@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:e  O > Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of the P > nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontK > and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made no O > difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now,e< > I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results. > $ > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6: > N > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > MnteN >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > CntiN > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 > 4 C > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) C > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)2 > + > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6:9/ > %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismounted_1 > %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volume_ > I > Thanks to all who replied.  I guess I'll just have to reboot the nodes.     4 Show device will tell you which devices are spooled: $ sho dev lt  . Device                  Device           Error.  Name                   Status           Count. LTA0:                   Offline mounted      0. LTA5003:                Online spooled       0  @ $ show dev/search=spool/page will highlight the spooled devices.     $ show dev/full lta5003   J Terminal LTA5003:, device type unknown, is online, record-oriented device,G     carriage control, device is spooled through an intermediate device.   O     Error count                    0    Operations completed                  5iO     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]oO     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot              S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W O     Reference count                0    Default buffer size                  80R  H Show device/full does not tell us the name of the spool device, but show
 term does:   $ sho term lta5003@ Terminal: _LTA5003:   Device_Type: Unknown       Owner: No Owner  B    Input:    9600     LFfill:  0      Width:  80      Parity: None0    Output:   9600     CRfill:  0      Page:   24   Terminal Characteristics: E    Interactive        No Echo            No Typeahead       No EscapeIB    No Hostsync        TTsync             Lowercase          No TabG    Wrap               Hardcopy           No Remote          No Eightbit C    No Broadcast       No Readsync        Form               FulldupoB    No Modem           No Local_echo      No Autobaud        HangupE    No Brdcstmbx       No DMA             No Altypeahd       Set_speed G    No Commsync        Line Editing       Overstrike editing No Fallback F    No Dialup          No Secure server   Disconnect         No PasthruK    No Syspassword     No SIXEL Graphics  No Soft Characters No Printer Port I    Numeric Keypad     No ANSI_CRT        No Regis           No Block_mode G    No Advanced_video  No Edit_mode       No DEC_CRT         No DEC_CRT2yI    No DEC_CRT3        No DEC_CRT4        No DEC_CRT5        No Ansi_Colora    VMS Style Input   Device spooled to _NODE$DKA0:,  F You might start by looking at devices associated with the symbiont you deleted, or its queues.e   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:06:56 -0600t$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive) Message-ID: <3B69C0F0.6E3AEACE@cha.ab.ca>@   Thanks.    With your pipe suggestioni)     $ pipe show dev | sear sys$pipe spool , and the suggestion from Stephen B. of Compaq     $ show term/full LTA...   R I have found twelve LTA devices on node M still spooled to DSA6.  Unfortunately, IH looked at two of these LTA devices and both were on different symbionts.     Dave Greenwood wrote:e  ' > Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:rQ > > Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of thesR > > nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontM > > and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made no Q > > difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now, > > > I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results. > > & > > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6: > > P > > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > > MntUP > >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > > CntuP > > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 > > 4cE > > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) E > > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)m > > - > > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6:M1 > > %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismountedT3 > > %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volume  > I > Note the last line.  You need to find those 12 devices that are spooled  > to the volume.  Start with >b+ >   $ pipe show dev | sear sys$pipe spooled  >  > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVnJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   -- Lee   ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityl? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V90   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:09:11 -0600 $ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive) Message-ID: <3B69C177.3DFCD02C@cha.ab.ca>   P Thanks very much to all who replied.  The reason for the "Trans count" of 13 has been found.e     Robert Deininger wrote:2  Q > In article <3B69A932.AB392F62@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:  >2Q > > Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of theMR > > nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontM > > and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made no Q > > difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now,-> > > I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results. > >e& > > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6: > >cP > > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > > MntAP > >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > > CntuP > > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 > > 4AE > > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)mE > > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)T > >m- > > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6:o1 > > %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismountedr3 > > %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volume  > >0K > > Thanks to all who replied.  I guess I'll just have to reboot the nodes.  >a6 > Show device will tell you which devices are spooled: > $ sho dev lt >o0 > Device                  Device           Error0 >  Name                   Status           Count0 > LTA0:                   Offline mounted      00 > LTA5003:                Online spooled       0 >mB > $ show dev/search=spool/page will highlight the spooled devices. >" > $ show dev/full lta5003  > L > Terminal LTA5003:, device type unknown, is online, record-oriented device,I >     carriage control, device is spooled through an intermediate device.h >dQ >     Error count                    0    Operations completed                  5tQ >     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]tQ >     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot              S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,WaQ >     Reference count                0    Default buffer size                  80  >mJ > Show device/full does not tell us the name of the spool device, but show > term does: >- > $ sho term lta5003B > Terminal: _LTA5003:   Device_Type: Unknown       Owner: No Owner > D >    Input:    9600     LFfill:  0      Width:  80      Parity: None2 >    Output:   9600     CRfill:  0      Page:   24 >s > Terminal Characteristics:dG >    Interactive        No Echo            No Typeahead       No EscapeeD >    No Hostsync        TTsync             Lowercase          No TabI >    Wrap               Hardcopy           No Remote          No EightbiteE >    No Broadcast       No Readsync        Form               FulldupiD >    No Modem           No Local_echo      No Autobaud        HangupG >    No Brdcstmbx       No DMA             No Altypeahd       Set_speedyI >    No Commsync        Line Editing       Overstrike editing No Fallback H >    No Dialup          No Secure server   Disconnect         No PasthruM >    No Syspassword     No SIXEL Graphics  No Soft Characters No Printer PortnK >    Numeric Keypad     No ANSI_CRT        No Regis           No Block_mode I >    No Advanced_video  No Edit_mode       No DEC_CRT         No DEC_CRT2_K >    No DEC_CRT3        No DEC_CRT4        No DEC_CRT5        No Ansi_Colort >    VMS Style Input >i > Device spooled to _NODE$DKA0:e >nH > You might start by looking at devices associated with the symbiont you > deleted, or its queues.  >a > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comn   -- Leep  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityo? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:15:55 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>  Subject: Re: Dismounting a drive6 Message-ID: <1010802210939.47969A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Lee Y T Mah wrote:  O > Compaq Support had recommended the ANA/SYS procedure.  I did it to one of thenP > nodes (M).  There was a print symbiont linked to DSA6.  I deleted the symbiontK > and there were no more references to DSA6 under another ANA/SYS.  Made nooO > difference to the "Trans Count".  It still showed as 13 on node M.  Just now,h< > I tried dismounting DSA6 on node M.  Here are the results. > $ > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ sho dev dsa6: > N > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > Mnt N >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > Cnt3N > DSA6:                   Mounted              0  SS6            3712400    13 > 4 C > $2$DUA14:          (K)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:) C > $2$DUA36:     (HSC004)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)c > + > M _J$DKB0:[RAHSEC] $ dismount/abort dsa6:e/ > %DISM-W-CANNOTDMT, DSA6: cannot be dismounted.1 > %DISM-W-SPOOLEDEV, 12 devices spooled to volume  > I > Thanks to all who replied.  I guess I'll just have to reboot the nodes.e  E Stopping the symbiont is irrelevent to freeing the channels.  I thinkND you need to stop the queues (stop/queue/next) and change the devices6 to use a different spool disk (set device/nospool, set= device/spool=(queue-name, disk:) and then restart the queues.s4 (Stopping the queues may not be strictly necessary.)  C If any processes currently have any of the 12 spooled devices open,nD they have channels open to temp files on the disk, so they will haveA to be stopped as well.  How to do that depends on the the programnD that the process is running.  However, I think this would have shownB up on the show device/files list, so I don't think it is an issue.  E Be sure to change your system startup files the same way or rebootingr
 wont help!   > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:b > @ > > For all nodes that have this volume mounted do the following > >r
 > > $ ANA/SYSe > > SET OUTPUT CHAN.LIS  > > SHOW PROCESS/CHANNEL ALL > > EXIT9 > > $ SEARCH CHAN.LIS "Extended PID: ","DSA6:"/OUTPUT=X.XD" > > $ SEARCH X.X "DSA6:"/WIN=(1,1)H > > If there are no matches here then you may dismount DSA6 on this nodeL > > otherwise the output should show what process has an open channel to theJ > > disk and you'll need to get that process to close the channel.  How toC > > do this will depend on what application the process is running.  > >IH > > Remember to DELETE CHAN.LIS.,X.X. before moving on to the next node. > >  > > Lee Y T Mah wrote: > > >.M > > > I have an old shadow set (DSA6) which no longer fits in our plans.  AllSK > > > the data files on it have been deleted and no users are accessing the L > > > drive anymore.  I am ready  to dismount it but the "Trans Count" stillM > > > shows "13".  Following is the info on the drive.  Can anyone suggest as0K > > > to what (phantom) files may still be lingering on the drive and beingr > > > accessed?  TIA.e > > > 7 > > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ dir/size/date dsa6:[000000...]o > > >a > > > Directory DSA6:[000000]  > > > @ > > > 000000.DIR;1                    3  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21< > > > BACKUP.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21< > > > BADBLK.SYS;1                5  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21< > > > BADLOG.SYS;1                0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21< > > > BITMAP.SYS;1              185  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21> > > > CONTIN.SYS;1                  0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21= > > > CORIMG.SYS;1                 0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21E; > > > INDEXF.SYS;1           46135  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21o= > > > SECURITY.SYS;1               1   5-DEC-1994 02:14:22.442? > > > VOLSET.SYS;1                   0  24-MAY-1990 13:00:09.21n > > > & > > > Total of 10 files, 46329 blocks. > > >1* > > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show device dsa6: > > > G > > > Device               Device           Error   Volume         Free  > > > Trans  MntK > > >  Name                 Status            Count   Label          Blocks7 > > > Count  Cnt9 > > > DSA6:              Mounted              0       SS6n > > > 3712400    13    4G > > > $2$DUA14:   (HSC001)   ShadowSetMember      0   (member of DSA6:) M > > > $2$DUA36:                (L)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA6:)n > > > 2 > > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ analyze/disk/repair dsa6:E > > > Analyze/Disk_Structure/Repair for _DSA6: started on  2-AUG-2001  > > > 11:08:36.88e > > >a4 > > > %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS( > > > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > > >e, > > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ show dev/file dsa6: > > >0? > > > Files accessed on device DSA6: on  2-AUG-2001 11:09:42.47  > > >H) > > > Process name      PID     File namea4 > > >                 00000000  [000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 > > > K _DSA6:[000000] $ > > >: > > > --	 > > > Lee  > > >-A > > > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health AuthorityhE > > > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCe: > > > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWE > > > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9o > >f > > --J > > Jilly   - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NYN > >         - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fanN > >         - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since 1975 or so7 > >         - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -e >  > -- > Leea > = > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health AuthoritybA > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V92 >  >  >  >    -- h John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:07:00 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>v  Subject: RE: IA64 Rocks My WorldR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D4954D@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,e  H >>> On second thoughts, if you stop claiming that its a perfectly normalJ tuning procedure with the added benefit of providing HA (though you didn'tE configure it that way) then I am perfectly happy to stop calling it aa loophole.<<<  J Sigh, repeat after me .. Oracle OPS was designed for not only availability but also scalability.a  I If you disagree with this, I would be glad to forward your concerns on ton= the Oracle support folks who will explain all of this to you.   E As stated many times here now, there are many ways to acheive a givenSK performance number. In your view, the only way is for a big single instancetI server and it upsets you that even the TPC Council agrees there are othere9 ways for a single server to acheive the same big result.    J Each application requirement in a Cust environment needs to be reviewed to! see which is the better strategy.   I So, your argument is with the TPC Council - again, go bother them and get % the rules changed if you don't agree.e   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]m Sent: July 26, 2001 3:50 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,6 > H > >>> Remember you have a collegue Kerry Maine posting to this group who would A > like us to beleive that OPS is in reality just Oracle with morej > reliability.<<<t > I > Please do not try to state things I have never stated. Very poor taste.  >   8 Really, I think you know perfectly well that my response8 is an accurate summary of your points. It isn't exactly ; what you said however it accurately reflects what you have o been trotting out.  J > Again, if you (or anyone else for that matter) do not agree with the TPCF > Council as to what a real mans TPC benchmark should be, then get the > benchmark rules changed. > A > Don't continue to cry foul or call it a loophole or whatever...  >   0 Why ?? It cannot be described as anything else.   4 On second thoughts, if you stop claiming that its a 1 perfectly normal tuning procedure with the added  5 benefit of providing HA (though you didn't configure  7 it that way) then I am perfectly happy to stop calling 0 it a loophole.  9 At the moment you are in the classic childhood possition l9 of wanting to have all the benefits without being capable 9 of accepting the dis-benefits that come with the package.n     Regards  Andrew Harrisonp Enterprise IT Architect0   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 14:51:39 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)e? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)o3 Message-ID: <uzAqykD$sYgT@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  j In article <Zifa7.544$Yx2.10075@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:& > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote in message ...3 >>Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:  >>: >>> What do you do for the first machine you get in house? >>: >>Pop the OS distribution CD into its drive and boot that. >> >  > L > Maybe what he meant was "what if this is the first IPF machine you have inN > house".  The answer then is, I would expect PXE booting to be added to Alpha
 > as well.  A If it is the first IPF machine in house, you still have no reasonmB not to put the distribution CD directly into it.  Nobody ever said@ that Alpha and IPF versions of VMS would come on the same CDROM.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:02:06 GMT,1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>d? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)D2 Message-ID: <3B69A46D.3DF948B6@clarityconnect.com>  ? Could Chris be think about (admittedly flimsy) the case where a D development group wants to get an IPF machine but the cost of the CDF drive in it busts their budget thus they want a CD-less IPF system and> have it be able to somehow boot via their existing Alpha based development systems??.   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > l > In article <Zifa7.544$Yx2.10075@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:( > > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote in message ...5 > >>Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:  > >>< > >>> What do you do for the first machine you get in house? > >>< > >>Pop the OS distribution CD into its drive and boot that. > >> > >  > > N > > Maybe what he meant was "what if this is the first IPF machine you have inP > > house".  The answer then is, I would expect PXE booting to be added to Alpha > > as well. > C > If it is the first IPF machine in house, you still have no reasoneD > not to put the distribution CD directly into it.  Nobody ever saidB > that Alpha and IPF versions of VMS would come on the same CDROM.   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 16:22:07 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)D? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS) 3 Message-ID: <be+Ws$0CHuIs@eisner.encompasserve.org>D  f In article <3B69A46D.3DF948B6@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:A > Could Chris be think about (admittedly flimsy) the case where asF > development group wants to get an IPF machine but the cost of the CDH > drive in it busts their budget thus they want a CD-less IPF system and@ > have it be able to somehow boot via their existing Alpha based > development systems??   D Wow, those are going to be expensive CDROM drives compared to Alpha.A Quick, call the Inquirer -- we got it from an "inside source" :-)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:13:26 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> ? Subject: RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)aR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D55F6C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF -  K >>> Shouldn't Compaq also consider the issue of customers running differenthG versions of the console depending on which CD was in the caddy when theA$ machine was powered up etc etc ? <<<  D You mean like what Compaq currently does with Alpha Console FW CD's?  F Sure, its a consideration, but certainly not something insurmountable.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Compaq Canada Corp.n Professional ServicesA Voice: 613-592-4660Y Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: August 2, 2001 1:20 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS)r     Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:: > > What do you do for the first machine you get in house? > : > Pop the OS distribution CD into its drive and boot that.  I This brings interesting long term issues though.  Digital doesn't have to H worry about supporting the console mode for the MicrovaxII because it isK "fixed" in ROM. It is a known entity with all MicrovaxII owners essentially K having the same console software (from the OS/documentation point of view).   B But when you start to have the console software on media that gets distributednI to every customer, then that console software must be able to work on any  andd5 all IA64 machines (at least all that Compaq builds).    C While Compaq may not have long term thinking because it just builds 
 disposableH wintel boxes that it doesn't have to support, when you get to enterpriseL systems, shouldn't long term support become an issue ? Shouldn't Compaq alsoI consider the issue of customers running different versions of the console0J depending on which CD was in the caddy when the machine was powered up etc etc ?,  K If the console softwre ships with the VMS distribution, this means that thedL engineers will have to find a way to have console software that is either soH vanilla that it will work on any and all IA64 machines, or find a way to haveL individually accessible console software for every model os IA64 Compaq ever	 produced.,   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 19:39 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)c? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS) , Message-ID: <2AUG200119390636@gerg.tamu.edu>  3 Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes...n }Fred Kleinsorge wrote:0 }>  N }> Nope.  The console ROM has full support for network booting.  It uses "PXE"M }> (preboot execution environment) which uses things like DHCP, and MTFTP.  IEL }> am by no means an expert, but our expert tells me that this will not be a }> problem.w } 7 }What do you do for the first machine you get in house?   G Plug it in, turn it on, and boot from either the preinstalled OS on the  hard drive or from the VMS CD?  E Which is almost certainly the same thing you did with the first Alpha D you got. Or the first VAX (except perhaps the "CD" part - substitute) the appropriate media for older systems).    --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:08:50 -0500 ' From: Thomas G Wirt <twirt@kittles.com> 6 Subject: Looking for a Pine.exe for TCPIP 5.x services+ Message-ID: <3B69DD82.51C6CED8@kittles.com>N  G I am trying to use pine to send attachments from a VMS 7.1 Alpha system H with TCPIP 5.0a.  I have a working copy of Pine, but it does not seem toG want to work with my TCP stack.  I do not have a C compiler and am verysH interested in finding a Pine executable that is ready to work with TCPIP# 5.x that is available for download.,   Thanks,u   Thomas Wirt  Systems Managerr Kittle's Home Furnishingso Indianapolis, IN   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:16:03 GMTa2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman): Subject: Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...)2 Message-ID: <nqja7.559$Yx2.10217@news.cpqcorp.net>  f In article <3B69A46D.3DF948B6@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:@ :Could Chris be think about (admittedly flimsy) the case where aE :development group wants to get an IPF machine but the cost of the CDrG :drive in it busts their budget thus they want a CD-less IPF system and ? :have it be able to somehow boot via their existing Alpha basedo :development systems??  J   That won't be a problem, since we will be shipping each IPF distributionI   CD-ROM pre-loaded into a hermetically sealed CD-ROM drive, and each IPF.L   system will include a processor-integrated wireless LAN (WLAN) connection K   -- the media connection will be made via the WLAN, meaning you just have  L   to power up the CD-ROM drive somewhere within roughly a hundred meters of I   the IPF system itself.  Other related options include the self-powered  J   media distribution kit, a kit which will power up automatically when theI   unpacked, and thus avoiding the need to understand the complexities of AH   a power cord -- the long-life variant will use an MP3-encoded OpenVMS E   binary kit and photovoltaic-recharged NiMH batteries.  The Tempest  K   environment variant of the WLAN media distribution kit will be available nJ   at a small additional cost, though the media self-destruction mechanism %   mandates ground shipment only.  :-)i  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:59:03 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o: Subject: Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...), Message-ID: <3B69CD13.48DCE697@videotron.ca>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:/L >   That won't be a problem, since we will be shipping each IPF distributionK >   CD-ROM pre-loaded into a hermetically sealed CD-ROM drive, and each IPFoM >   system will include a processor-integrated wireless LAN (WLAN) connectionr  K Why not just integrate an Iridium handset into every VMS system and have itXH load the latest and greatest console from a satellite link directly from Compaq ?  M Compaq could then do clear statistics on which customers boot more often thaniN they should and send support personel to better tune that system to reduce the boot frequency.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:33:19 -0700   From: Jon <jsmyth69@hotmail.com>: Subject: Re: Media Kits (was Re: IPF Console Bootstrap...)2 Message-ID: <NuNpO6P+V+wg0t8vYgLuqamX8WG0@4ax.com>  	 Good one!   3 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:h  g >In article <3B69A46D.3DF948B6@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:sA >:Could Chris be think about (admittedly flimsy) the case where a"F >:development group wants to get an IPF machine but the cost of the CDH >:drive in it busts their budget thus they want a CD-less IPF system and@ >:have it be able to somehow boot via their existing Alpha based >:development systems??r >zK >  That won't be a problem, since we will be shipping each IPF distribution J >  CD-ROM pre-loaded into a hermetically sealed CD-ROM drive, and each IPFM >  system will include a processor-integrated wireless LAN (WLAN) connection  L >  -- the media connection will be made via the WLAN, meaning you just have M >  to power up the CD-ROM drive somewhere within roughly a hundred meters of  J >  the IPF system itself.  Other related options include the self-powered K >  media distribution kit, a kit which will power up automatically when the4J >  unpacked, and thus avoiding the need to understand the complexities of I >  a power cord -- the long-life variant will use an MP3-encoded OpenVMS 0F >  binary kit and photovoltaic-recharged NiMH batteries.  The Tempest L >  environment variant of the WLAN media distribution kit will be available K >  at a small additional cost, though the media self-destruction mechanism  & >  mandates ground shipment only.  :-) > O > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- O >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    rO > --------------------------- pure personal opinion --------------------------- M >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.comr   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:50:21 -04000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot>5 Subject: Re: Now here's a challenge for you guys....!O5 Message-ID: <jgha7.50447$TW.252507@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>$   Easy./   use escape sequences like: string1 + esc + "7"D esc + "8" + string2 + esc + "7" 	 etc. etc.   K From memory I think that's it. esc + 7 = save cursor position, 8 = restore.]  C Just do a loop with a f$extract() and a wait in between characters. J Other escape sequences will allow you to move the cursor around at will to print stuff like H      L      O       E       L   But I don't know who likes it.   --   Syltrem-; http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site)-    A "nikki_wire" <nikki_wire@yahoo.com> a crit dans le message news: 1 60fdd9c9.0108020212.8c9d47a@posting.google.com...YB > ok, no-one so far has been able to help me with this. Here's the > challenge: > F > I would like to edit my login.com so that my welcome message appearsF > letter by letter *on the same command line* (not just do a type 'a',6 > wait 2, type 'b', etc and get a letter on each line. >aC > I'm after text appearing h (pause) e (pause) l(pause) l (pause) 0eG > (pause) before my start prompt appears. I sure as heck can't suss outaG > if it's doable - is there any expert out there who can save the day?!  >  > Thanks a million >  > Nikkif   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:48:39 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> 9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!o( Message-ID: <3B699270.92D3F3E3@ohio.edu>  ; From RSX-11, the "predecessor" operating system on PDP-11s.w  #                                 RDPo    * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  H > The number of developers "11" came from "The Inquirer"  I believe .... >tK > Is the reason of the "Files-11" name ? I never understood why "Files-11".i > 	 > Regardsr >  > FC >  > ' >                     "Fred Kleinsorge"uN >                     <kleinsorge@star.zk        Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com4 >                     o.dec.com>                 cc:T >                                                Assunto:     Re: Outsourcing of VMSJ >                     02/08/2001 13:38           support to Digital India!' >                     Responder a "Fredy! >                     Kleinsorge"  >r >r >t, > Eh?  Where did this number "11" come from? >e: > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ... >n > Hehehe.... >rB > There are 11 OpenVMS developers at Compaq and hundreds in India.   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:23:34 -0300+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>M9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!KL Message-ID: <OFEBC5CC20.112670E3-ON03256A9C.0064EE87@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  
 Okay, okay   You refreshed my memory !e   But why "11" ????P   :-)    Regardst   FC    S                                                                                    aS                     "Richard D.                                                    eS                     Piccard"             Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com             aS                     <piccard@ohio        cc:                                       eS                     .edu>                Assunto:     Re: Outsourcing of VMS       bS                                          support to Digital India!                  S                     02/08/2001                                                     sS                     14:48                                                          oS                     Responder a                                                    nS                     "Richard D.                                                     S                     Piccard"                                                       eS                                                                                    cS                                                                                    -        ; From RSX-11, the "predecessor" operating system on PDP-11s.n  #                                 RDP     * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  H > The number of developers "11" came from "The Inquirer"  I believe .... >tK > Is the reason of the "Files-11" name ? I never understood why "Files-11".a >k	 > Regardsw >e > FC >  >b' >                     "Fred Kleinsorge"e6 >                     <kleinsorge@star.zk        Para: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comm4 >                     o.dec.com>                 cc:A >                                                Assunto:     Re:n Outsourcing of VMSJ >                     02/08/2001 13:38           support to Digital India!' >                     Responder a "Fred ! >                     Kleinsorge"F >c >e > , > Eh?  Where did this number "11" come from? >d: > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ... >a > Hehehe.... >fB > There are 11 OpenVMS developers at Compaq and hundreds in India.   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:12:30 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>P9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!s2 Message-ID: <JDha7.555$Yx2.10381@news.cpqcorp.net>   Because 10 was taken?a  8 fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ... >" >Okay, okays >. >You refreshed my memory ! >o >But why "11" ???? >a >:-) >  >Regards >r >FCr >a >i >s  >                    "Richard D.G >                    Piccard"             Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com - >                    <piccard@ohio        cc:.I >                    .edu>                Assunto:     Re: Outsourcing ofI VMScC >                                         support to Digital India!  >                    02/08/2001  >                    14:48  >                    Responder a  >                    "Richard D. >                    Piccard"n >i >  >o >e >  >d< >From RSX-11, the "predecessor" operating system on PDP-11s. >O$ >                                RDP >t >C+ >fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:c >iI >> The number of developers "11" came from "The Inquirer"  I believe ....5 >>L >> Is the reason of the "Files-11" name ? I never understood why "Files-11". >>
 >> Regards >> >> FC: >> >>( >>                     "Fred Kleinsorge"7 >>                     <kleinsorge@star.zk        Para:p >Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com5 >>                     o.dec.com>                 cc:oB >>                                                Assunto:     Re: >Outsourcing of VMSyK >>                     02/08/2001 13:38           support to Digital India!s( >>                     Responder a "Fred" >>                     Kleinsorge" >> >> >>- >> Eh?  Where did this number "11" come from?l >>; >> fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ...x >>
 >> Hehehe....  >>C >> There are 11 OpenVMS developers at Compaq and hundreds in India.i >  >--rC >==================================================================oC >Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology Manager C >piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer Services:C >http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University  >5 >0 >2 >4 >4 >B   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:05:25 +0100p+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>n9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India! ' Message-ID: <3B69A475.3D148D9E@iee.org>o  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >  > Okay, okay >  > You refreshed my memory !  >  > But why "11" ????,  3 Did you miss the bit where he said "on the PDP-11"?,    (And yes there was a PDP-10 ...)   Antoniod     --     ---------------e- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:05:38 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!R, Message-ID: <3B69B286.4AE0F0E6@videotron.ca>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > H > The number of developers "11" came from "The Inquirer"  I believe ....  K Perhaps it is wrong to assume that the "11" is in decimal. Perhaps in is ins1 base64 which would translate to 65 developpers...p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:13:58 -0300+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>r9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!OL Message-ID: <OFB61D0A3A.9E62FC3A-ON03256A9C.006F0B41@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Answered...t  
 10,11,....  I PS: I never saw a PDP in my life.  The first DEC machine I worked was theo
 VAX 6420.....l   Regardsi   FC    S                                                                                    eS                     "antonio.carl                                                  gS                     ini"                 Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com             mS                     <arcarlini@ie        cc:                                        S                     e.org>               Assunto:     Re: Outsourcing of VMS        S                                          support to Digital India!                 rS                     02/08/2001                                                      S                     16:05                                                          lS                     Responder a                                                    -S                     "antonio.carl                                                  cS                     ini"                                                           2S                                                                                    FS                                                                                    b            * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >w > Okay, okay >l > You refreshed my memory !a >y > But why "11" ????b  3 Did you miss the bit where he said "on the PDP-11"?l    (And yes there was a PDP-10 ...)   Antonio      --   ---------------i- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgn   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:46:54 GMTt" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!h9 Message-ID: <Xns90F1965E1B68Efalkarcabca@205.233.108.180>y  / "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in - news:3B69A475.3D148D9E@iee.org:8   >  > , > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >> :
 >> Okay, okayP >> x >> You refreshed my memory ! >> D >> But why "11" ???? > 5 > Did you miss the bit where he said "on the PDP-11"?  > " > (And yes there was a PDP-10 ...)  M And PDP-1 through PDP-9, but not all were actually marketed.  Not to mention  M PDP-12, PDP-15, and I think there were -14 and -16, but they weren't general   purpose computers.  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca i@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road@1                         Edmonton, Alberta, CanadaM http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4o  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:24:41 GMTe0 From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India! . Message-ID: <3B69D32A.9F36B55@ne.mediaone.net>   Rob Young wrote: > 0 >         Folks.... make a t-shirt or something: > 1 >                              I am one of the 11b > 3 >         Much more imaginative things I am sure...l  @ I am 7 of 11.  I have been assimilated.  Thank you!  Come again!   -- cM Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB, Inc.,M mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Box 426188)M mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA  02142-0021j 617.864.6907   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 22:46 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e9 Subject: Re: Outsourcing of VMS support to Digital India!i, Message-ID: <2AUG200122463686@gerg.tamu.edu>  / <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> writes...eG }The number of developers "11" came from "The Inquirer"  I believe ....a } J }Is the reason of the "Files-11" name ? I never understood why "Files-11". }  }Regards }  }FCm  G And did they say that there are 11 total, or 11 that worked on VMS V7.0a5 (or something along those lines) who are still there?a  @ I would expect that Files-11 is the one develped after Files-10.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:46:02 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> Y Subject: Re: problem deallocating a CD rom device when reflection used to allocate it is -( Message-ID: <3B6991D4.88539B74@ohio.edu>  \ This appears to be another instance of a long-standing bug in VMS.  The older instances wereY with tape drives, but "device allocated to non-existant process" problems can be reliably:^ cured only by reboot.  There have been privileged code hacks written to get around it, but theZ more painful it is to do a planned reboot, the more painful it would be to have unintended6 consequences of the hack causing an UN-planned reboot!  #                                 RDPm     sunil wrote:  " > Thanks a lot for your responses. >n9 > I tried the STOP /id=(id reported by show device /full)e > but the response i got was >d > $ stop /id=2D40166At( > %SYSTEM-W-NONEXPR, nonexistent process > B > I tried the approach suggested by andrew, but from a non priv'ed	 > accounto >n" > $ dismount/nounload/abort dka500> > %SYSTEM-W-DEVALLOC, device already allocated to another user >d@ > I tried this from the same account with which i had originallyH > allocated the drive. But looks like VMS allocates devices to processes > and not users. >sG > i guess this might work from a priv'ed account, but is there a way to B > retrieve the drive as the user who originally allocated it ( non > priv'ed).. >9C > The shell in which the allocation was done has terminated, so the < > process to which the allocation was done no longer exists. >s	 > Thanks.  >e] > Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> wrote in message news:<3B641385.7000409@townisp.com>...u5 > > From a priv'ed account, do the following command:  > >l( > > $ dismount/nounload/abort   {device} > >d > >e > > Jerry Leslie wrote:  > >a% > > > sunil (stelth@iname.com) wrote:s5 > > > : I use reflections to connect to a VMS system.t > > > :tR > > > : when i accidentally closed a reflection from which i allocated and mountedM > > > : a CD rom drive with out deallocating it. I could not allocate it fromi > > > : a different reflection. P > > > : I got a message to the effect of device already allocated to a different > > > : process. > > > :OL > > > : Is there a way for me ( with out admin priviledges) to get access toH > > > : the CD drive. (other than requesting a reboot, which is the only( > > > : suggestion i could get till now) > > > : + > > > : any help will be  much appreciated.s > > >3N > > > Issue the " SHOW DEVICE/FULL DKxxx" command, where "DKxxx" is the device% > > > name of the CD-ROM drive; e.g.:h > > >m" > > >    $ show device/full dka400 > > > T > > >    Disk SCCVXG$DKA400:, device type RRD42, is online, allocated, file-oriented9 > > >        device, shareable, error logging is enabled.- > > >nS > > >        Error count               0    Operations completed                  0 S > > >        Owner process      "LESLIE"    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]aS > > >    >>  Owner process ID   0000DA7D    Dev Prot            S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,WiS > > >        Reference count           1    Default buffer size                 512g > > >4 > > >-O > > > Then issue the "STOP/ID=xxxxxxx" command to stop the process whose "owner P > > > process ID" appears in the output of the "SHOW DEVICE/FULL DKxxx" command;
 > > > e.g. > > >  > > >    $ STOP/ID=0000DA7Dg > > >  > > > --Jerry Leslie   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:49:19 GMT 2 From: "John Fredrickson" <jafred@bellatlantic.net>8 Subject: Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 2006 Message-ID: <zqna7.439$Zg.198713@typhoon1.gnilink.net>  I MaizeI recently purchased an Alphastation 200 4/233 which lacked a floppywK drive. When I installed one and booted up, the light came on and stayed on.oJ I double checked the ribbon cable and it was indeed installed correctly. II tried booting from a FAT formatted floppy anyway and the Alphastation wasaL unable to read it. The AS200 also seemed to damage the format on the floppy.L The Windows machine that originally formatted the floppy believed the floppy was unformatted.  I My theory at this point is that the average floppy is not 100% compatibleiI with the type of floppy used by Digital back in 1995. I've forgotten what1L the official Digital designation is for their floppy drives (RX33 perhaps?).D I don't want to do the firmware upgrade using BOOTP, so I'm going toL continue working on the problem from the floppy drive perspective. If any ofK you can help me resolve this problem, please let me know. Thanks in advances for your help.   Regards,   John Fredrickson Washington, DC    ! begin 666 John A. Fredrickson.vcfe= M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..D9R961R:6-K<V]N.TIO:&X[1= M02X-"D9..DIO:&X@02X@1G)E9')I8VMS;VX-"DY)0TM.04U%.DIO:&X-"D]2F= M1SI#4U,-"E1)5$Q%.D]W;F5R#0I414P[5T]22SM63TE#13HH,C R*2 V.#(M = M.#(Y. T*5$5,.TA/344[5D])0T4Z*#(P,BD@,C,R+3@Q,#(-"E1%3#M73U)+o= M.T9!6#HH,C R*2 V.#(M.#4R,0T*5$5,.TA/344[1D%8.B@R,#(I(#(S,BTX = M,3 R#0I!1%([5T]22SH[.S(Q-#4@0V%L:69O<FYI82!3=')E970L($Y7(",S = M,#$[5V%S:&EN9W1O;CM$0SLR,# P."TQ.#$V.U5N:71E9"!3=&%T97,@;V8@ = M06UE<FEC80T*3$%"14P[5T]22SM%3D-/1$E.1SU154]4140M4%))3E1!0DQ%s= M.C(Q-#4@0V%L:69O<FYI82!3=')E970L($Y7(",S,#$],$0],$%787-H:6YG?= M=&]N+"!$0R R,# P."TQ.#$V/3!$/3!!56YI=&5D(%,]#0IT871E<R!O9B!!.= M;65R:6-A#0I54DP[5T]22SIH='1P.B\O=W=W+F%P:2YO<F<-"D5-04E,.U!2m= M148[24Y415).150Z:F%F<F5D0&)E;&QA=&QA;G1I8RYN970-"D5-04E,.TE.== M5$523D54.F9R961R:6-K<V]N:D!A<&DN;W)G#0I2158Z,C P,3 X,#-4,#$U  1-# P6@T*14Y$.E9#05)$#0H`o `y endg   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 22:44:58 -0500s9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)n< Subject: Re: Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 2003 Message-ID: <KENe16LMpjS2@eisner.encompasserve.org>b  k In article <zqna7.439$Zg.198713@typhoon1.gnilink.net>, "John Fredrickson" <jafred@bellatlantic.net> writes:2  
 > Regards, >  > John Fredrickson > Washington, DC >  > # > begin 666 John A. Fredrickson.vcf?? > M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..D9R961R:6-K<V]N.TIO:&X[ ? > M02X-"D9..DIO:&X@02X@1G)E9')I8VMS;VX-"DY)0TM.04U%.DIO:&X-"D]2   . Please do not post binary data to comp.os.vms.   ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 04:14:09 GMT7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) < Subject: Re: Problem with floppy drive on an Aplastation 200& Message-ID: <GHH53L.2Ir@world.std.com>  4 "John Fredrickson" <jafred@bellatlantic.net> writes:  J >MaizeI recently purchased an Alphastation 200 4/233 which lacked a floppyL >drive. When I installed one and booted up, the light came on and stayed on.K >I double checked the ribbon cable and it was indeed installed correctly. I   F The key on the floppy cable on AS 200s does NOT match the notch on theI drive!  You _want_ to install it "wrong", that is, turn the cable around. B The light coming on and staying on is a symptom of the cable beingE installed backward.  I once was told why it was this way, but I don't 
 remember now.   F BTW, the 2.88MB DEC drives work fine on an AS200.  That is, if you can find one (or the media).   -Mike    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:03:11 +0200' From: "Thys de Wet" <thys@it.sun.ac.za> . Subject: Problem with LF/CR in OpenVMS reports/ Message-ID: <9kb1g2$6s8$1@news.adamastor.ac.za>o   Hi all,a  B I know this may not be strictly topical to this NG, but here goes:  I We are in the process of migrating from Natural 217 on OpenVMS to Natural  412 on OpenVMS.   ( We have picked up the following problem:   Natural 412:  K A report is generated with 64 lines per page. On page 1 the data is aligned.J 100% with preprinted/overlayed form. From the second page onwards it seemsI as if the report is generated with 1 line less per page, resulting in the8D data text being printed one line higher on the page, and thus out of0 registration with the preprinted/overlayed form.  L Editing the print file reflects one LF/CR less per page from page 2 onwards.  D The program has not been altered. It is identical to the Natural 217L version. SYSTRANS-ed (copiedit as pure ASCII text from production version to< new development version) it and compiled OK  in Natural 412.   Natural 217:  G The same program is used, and we do not get the same error. Editing the D print file reflects all pages to have the same number of lines to be printed.  G SAG (local ZA contacts, as well as SAG Germany) does not seem to have a2 workaround/fix for this)  G Here are the versions of OpenVMS that we're using, so maybe, just maybeo? someone out there in SAG "world" may have some pointers for us.1  L Printing is done to HP8100 thru MULTINET TCP/IP Print que setup as indicated below:  K NAT 217: (2 Alphaservers, One production environment, one development env.)y   Production:   5 AlphaServer 4100 5/400 running under OPENVMS V6.2-1H3   K Printer queue PQ_ARD_3_HP5SI, idle, on SUN017::NLP44:"146.232.128.75/9100",b mounted form L001 (stock=A4)L   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FORM=L001 (stock=A4)) /LIBRARY=ARSLIB Lowercase5   /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=MULTINET_STREAM_SYMBIONT L   /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR /SEPARATE=(FLAG,RESET=(RESET))=          (IDENTIFIER=QUEUE_MANAGER,ACCESS=READ+SUBMIT+DELETE)a $    Development:  0 Digital AlphaPC 164LX running under OPENVMS V7.1  K Printer queue PQ_ARD_3_HP5SI, idle, on SUN018::NLP44:"146.232.128.75/9100",. mounted form L001 (stock=A4)L   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FORM=L001 (stock=A4)) /LIBRARY=ARSLIB Lowercase5   /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=MULTINET_STREAM_SYMBIONTb /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)s.   /RETAIN=ERROR /SEPARATE=(FLAG,RESET=(RESET))=          (IDENTIFIER=QUEUE_MANAGER,ACCESS=READ+SUBMIT+DELETE)  $    Nat412 environment:"  4 COMPAQ AlphaServer DS10 running under OPENVMS V7.2-1  K Printer queue PQ_ARD_3_HP5SI, idle, on SUN019::NLP44:"146.232.128.75/9100",c mounted form L221 (stock=A4)L   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FORM=L001 (stock=A4)) /LIBRARY=ARSLIB Lowercase5   /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=MULTINET_STREAM_SYMBIONTIL   /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR /SEPARATE=(FLAG,RESET=(RESET))=          (IDENTIFIER=QUEUE_MANAGER,ACCESS=READ+SUBMIT+DELETE)m $ B Any help/pointers/advice/musings or whatever you mave have will be appreciated.   Thys de Wete  L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------=  / Admin Computer Services, Information Technologyc  ( University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch   South Africa  L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 02:55:31 GMTB- From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com>," Subject: Re: Quorum Disk Questions( Message-ID: <3B6A129D.217A8079@home.com>  P > This is not cool.  It makes it hard to start one node at a time after shuttingB > down all the nodes OR to shut down more than one node at a time. > T > Instead, add a quorum disk and give it four votes.  Quorum would then be (4+4+2)/2
 > or five.O > One vote and four votes from the quorum disk would give you "five", enough to M > start one system completely before starting another system after a complete- > cluster shutdown.-  H 	Would it be better to simply choose an important node (I have one!) andF give it four (4) votes [Quorum=(4+1+1+1+2)/2=4]?  Then, as long as the important nodeM is working, the "cluster" can run/start.  This does away with the performance  issues+ I have read about when using a quorum disk.q  J 	I don't think this could lead to a partitioning of the cluster in anyway,K either.  Correct?  Even if all the other three (3) nodes got together for a 3 mutiny, they would be one vote short of a quorum...2   Regards, Rick   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2001 00:30:27 -0500i+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-" Subject: Re: Quorum Disk Questions3 Message-ID: <n06s81AfYsaF@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  X In article <3B6A129D.217A8079@home.com>, "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com> writes:Q >> This is not cool.  It makes it hard to start one node at a time after shutting C >> down all the nodes OR to shut down more than one node at a time.   < 	There is a better technique, see below.  Expected Votes are? 	adjusted down by REMOVE_NODE when a node is properly shutdown.   > http://www.mi.infn.it/~calcolo/OpenVMS/ssb71/6015/6017p008.htm   >>  U >> Instead, add a quorum disk and give it four votes.  Quorum would then be (4+4+2)/2n >> or five. P >> One vote and four votes from the quorum disk would give you "five", enough toN >> start one system completely before starting another system after a complete >> cluster shutdown. > J > 	Would it be better to simply choose an important node (I have one!) andH > give it four (4) votes [Quorum=(4+1+1+1+2)/2=4]?  Then, as long as the > important nodeO > is working, the "cluster" can run/start.  This does away with the performance  > issues- > I have read about when using a quorum disk.  >     	Performance issues?  Reference?  B 	An "important" node in this context doesn't make sense... unless B 	the important node is so much more powerful than the other 3 that6 	you might as well send everyone home when it is down.   	As for starting.... see below.   L > 	I don't think this could lead to a partitioning of the cluster in anyway,M > either.  Correct?  Even if all the other three (3) nodes got together for ai5 > mutiny, they would be one vote short of a quorum...  >   @ 	Here is the trick... you may or may not agree, but it works and 	works well.  F 	First, this isn't a be all end all.  If multi-sited, other techniques: 	would apply.  But there is a fairly new white paper here:  > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/fc_hbvs_dtc_wp.pdf  < 	That goes into setting MVTIMEOUT and SHADOW_MBR_TMO to high@ 	values... because if one site goes down, you will no doubt wantC 	to be involved and adjust quorum at the remaining site to continue F 	unless you are fortunate enough to be across 3 sites and connectivity 	is maintained, but I digress.  7 	Assumption:  All 4 or more nodes are in the same room.   A 	I spent a lot of time before I realized the math won't make much ? 	difference.  As Jan mentioned, if you have more than 2 nodes a-? 	Quorum disk makes little sense.  As he mentioned, "what is the @ 	scenario?  First one node crashes and then another?"  Odds are > 	very high what caused the other two to go down will drag downC 	the third (probably empirical evidence to support that somewhere).t  = 	The trick of course is getting started.. a quorum disk helpsaB 	a great deal there and prevents you from screwing something major: 	up and as mentioned, you can trick things up.. by jackingC 	QDSKVOTES to a number to get it rolling with Expected Votes a safe 	 	setting.   7 	But here is arguably a better way I learned at a site.   + 	1)  All nodes except satellites get 1 vote:D 	2)  No quorom disk, not needed!  Helps speed the transitions up for 		one thing!3 	3)  Expected Votes = all voting nodes totalled up.v  @ 	Working with a cluster with 6 nodes, we would on the FIRST node	 	to boot:r  B 	>>> boot -fl 1,N  $n$DGA|DUA.a.b.c.d      ! Alpha booting SYSBOOT 	SYSBOOT>  SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0  	SYSBOOT>  SET EXPECTED_VOTES 1i 	SYSBOOT>  CONTINUE    	Where N = that node's root.  F 	Since EV = 1, this node comes up.  Let it finish mounting or startingC 	up all the way... I definitely let all disks mount before startingu 	another node.  $ 	On the next or SECOND node to boot:  B 	>>> boot -fl 1,O  $n$DGA|DUA.a.b.c.d      ! Alpha booting SYSBOOT 	SYSBOOT>  SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0eB 	SYSBOOT>  SET EXPECTED_VOTES 2    <=====  Two ... it must see the% 						other node or it won't come up.n 						Remember, all these nodese 						"normal" EV is 6.  	SYSBOOT>  CONTINUEs  # 	On the next or THIRD node to boot:w  B 	>>> boot -fl 1,P  $n$DGA|DUA.a.b.c.d      ! Alpha booting SYSBOOT 	SYSBOOT>  SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0-6 	SYSBOOT>  SET EXPECTED_VOTES 3	<=====  See a pattern? 	SYSBOOT>  CONTINUE-    = 	etc. until all nodes are up.  Then of course double check to @ 	make sure you didn't forget to type WRITESYSPARAMS or something 	else equally bizarre:  
 	$ mcr sysmano 	SYSMAN> SET E/CC 	SYSMAN> PARAM SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES       !  Should be 6 if 6 voterssA 	SYSMAN> EXIT   ! If incorrect, set and then write active/currenth   	More on EXPECTED_VOTES here:e  L http://www.rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp/Divisions/CN/computer/vms/faq/vms_faq_0070.txt  ; 	So.. what does this do for you?  It gets you away from thet= 	Quorum Disk addiction.  One of the first things I did was tou? 	kick the Quorum Disk out of a cluster that had 7 or 8 members.gB 	They were amazed at how fast it came up after fiddling with otherE 	things and booting the Quorum Disk.  "lost contact with Quorum Disk,TB 	regained contact, continuing."  I gained gray and lost other hair  	reading those loopy messages!!!  A 	Oh, what brought me to such a conclusion?  Roy Davis' VAXClusters 	Principles:  G http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D1555581129/104-0363457-9157532k  @ 	I paid a lot less than $186 bucks.  Duh, that's hardcover.  You? 	might want to go with the more reasonable softcover at $64.95:n  3 http://www.addall.com/Browse/Detail/0608088501.htmle   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:25:57 -0500a? From: "Dale T. Lobb" <dale.keinspam.lobb@bryanlgh.keinspam.org>w Subject: RCFoC5 Message-ID: <3B699B34.DAF7E68D@bryanlgh.keinspam.org>h   Has anyone else noticed that Compaq has ceased publication of the RCFoC (The Rapidly Changing Face of Computing)?  Judging from then last issue, July 23rd's, it seems quite unexpected.  I sent a message off to ask about it, but I was wondering if anyone had any information on it.   I, for one, am quite saddened to see it go.  So many people participated, and Jeffrey did such a great job keeping track of the & latest research and innovations...  :(    	 Dale Lobb    --   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 16:20:08 -0500t9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g Subject: Re: RCFoC3 Message-ID: <gS5mH981vmUK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <3B699B34.DAF7E68D@bryanlgh.keinspam.org>, "Dale T. Lobb" <dale.keinspam.lobb@bryanlgh.keinspam.org> writes:a > Has anyone else noticed that Compaq has ceased publication of the RCFoC (The Rapidly Changing Face of Computing)?  Judging from the  > last issue, July 23rd's, it seems quite unexpected.  I sent a message off to ask about it, but I was wondering if anyone had any > information on it.  J Actually, the last issue was July 26, 2001, and it explained the cessationG and offered a way to express interest in a continuation outside Compaq.   F 	http://eisner.decus.org/DECUServe/DECnotes/INDUSTRY_NEWS/693.101.HTML   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 20:30:24 GMTr) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)t Subject: Re: RCFoC' Message-ID: <9kcd90$8kt$1@joe.rice.edu>I  > Dale T. Lobb (dale.keinspam.lobb@bryanlgh.keinspam.org) wrote:J : Has anyone else noticed that Compaq has ceased publication of the RCFoC J : (The Rapidly Changing Face of Computing)?  Judging from the last issue, M : July 23rd's, it seems quite unexpected.  I sent a message off to ask about o> : it, but I was wondering if anyone had any information on it. :"L : I, for one, am quite saddened to see it go.  So many people participated, L : and Jeffrey did such a great job keeping track of the latest research and  : innovations...  :(  2 Compaq "derecruited" its Corporate Strategy Group:  )   http://www.theinquirer.net/24070115.htm   B There's a form available at this site, should you be interested in another publication like RCFoC:n  $   http://www.mv.com/ipusers/farstar/   --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:53:12 GMTe1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>a( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????2 Message-ID: <3B699448.A636D40B@clarityconnect.com>  D There have been functionality requests in the past that VMS create aH utility that will redo the system dump mapping routines so that a rebootB isn't required when deleting, reducing, increasing the system dumpG file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists ontE a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that theyh log an enhancement request.a   JF Mezei wrote:l >  > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:n > >tA > > There is no way to free up this space until a reboot is done.0 > P > *shouldn't* it be possible to use SYSGEN to tell the system it no longer needs( > a dump file and close the one it has ? > N > DUMPSTYLE seems to be dynamic in nature and does have a flag to make it dumpP > to a disk other than the system disk. Perhaps you could create a new dump file; > on another disk and tell SYSGEN to use that one instead ?    -- lD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:13:13 -0300+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>.( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????L Message-ID: <OF5B89D280.88CEBB5D-ON03256A9C.0063CEA8@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Well  H The basic thing I would like to avoid this kind of problem is really "l= ock" the file9 and dont permit it to be "renamed and deleted"  as I did.3   Regards5   F=E1bio Cardosos    H                                                                        =               =20!H                     "Mark D. Jilson"                                   =               =20mH                     <jilly@clarityco        Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.C= om            =20!H                     nnect.com>              cc:                        =               =20-H                                             Assunto:     Re: Reboot to = close a file  =20rH                     02/08/2001 14:53        ????                       =               =20NH                     Responder a                                        =               =20,H                     "Mark D. Jilson"                                   =               =20 H                                                                        =               =20XH                                                                        =               =20X        D There have been functionality requests in the past that VMS create aH utility that will redo the system dump mapping routines so that a reboo= tpB isn't required when deleting, reducing, increasing the system dumpH file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists on=  E a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that theys log an enhancement request.w   JF Mezei wrote:y >d > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:a > >oA > > There is no way to free up this space until a reboot is done.b >cH > *shouldn't* it be possible to use SYSGEN to tell the system it no lon= gern needss( > a dump file and close the one it has ? > H > DUMPSTYLE seems to be dynamic in nature and does have a flag to make = it dumpH > to a disk other than the system disk. Perhaps you could create a new = dump file; > on another disk and tell SYSGEN to use that one instead ?2   --H Jilly     - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, N= Ya@      - jilly@clarityconnect.com               - Brett Bodine fan;      - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com            - since 1975 or so 0      - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -     =-   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:08:05 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????0 Message-ID: <009FFEED.65650ABD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <3B699448.A636D40B@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:E >There have been functionality requests in the past that VMS create aeI >utility that will redo the system dump mapping routines so that a rebootpC >isn't required when deleting, reducing, increasing the system dumpnH >file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists onF >a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that they >log an enhancement request.    ? But there already is a set of tools to do this:  SDA and DELTA.N   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            dJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:08:49 +0100 + From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>k( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????' Message-ID: <3B69A541.96B1B2A0@iee.org>,  M > The basic thing I would like to avoid this kind of problem is really "lock" 
 > the file; > and dont permit it to be "renamed and deleted"  as I did.t  3 Renaming, rebooting and deleting is the correct waye to eliminate the file.  / Did you go through this procedure to change the0/ size of SYSDUMP.DMP? If not, why did you do it?    Antonio5   ---------------:- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:26:07 GMT=1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>I( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????2 Message-ID: <3B69AA0E.FAC5EA4F@clarityconnect.com>  E Yes most anything is doable w/ DELTA ;*)  That's why I said a utility H and not a tool ;*)  Utilities, you answer a few simple questions at mostF and they go off and do things ;*)  Tools, can be dangerous if not used properly ;*)  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > h > In article <3B699448.A636D40B@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:G > >There have been functionality requests in the past that VMS create aSK > >utility that will redo the system dump mapping routines so that a rebootaE > >isn't required when deleting, reducing, increasing the system dump2J > >file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists onH > >a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that they > >log an enhancement request. > A > But there already is a set of tools to do this:  SDA and DELTA.O >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMQ > K >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery K >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes-   -- -D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:18:13 -0700-< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????) Message-ID: <3B69A775.442BD17D@intel.com>s  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  	 > Sorry !  > K > I didnt explain right:  I renamed the SYSDUMP.DMP to SYSDUMP.DMP3 after as > forced crashI > for analysis purposes and created a new SYSDUMP.DMP using the MC SYSGENt > CREATE" > SYSDUMP.DMP /SIZE=size /NOCONTIG >rM > The problematic file is SYSDUMP.DMP3. I deleted after the completion of then > analysis.t > It still allocating space.  N     However, you _did_ reboot after the crash _before_ renaming SYSDUMP.SMP toL SYSDUMP.DMP3, yes?  The only way you could have avoided that would have beenK to boot from the CDrom (Alpha only), mount the system disk, rename the filerL (and create a new one), shutdown and only _then_ boot from your system disk.  N     Therefore, the system still has a lock on the original/renamed SYSDUMP.DMP* and you _must_ reboot in order to free it.  9     FYI, to "save" a dump for analysis, do the following:t  # $ ANAL/CRASH SYS$SYSTEM:SYSDUMP.DMP  SDA> copy dev:[dir]file.typ2	 SDA> exit, $i          Regards, Ken- --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:10:48 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>0( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <3B69B3BB.EA9DDA5C@videotron.ca>   "Mark D. Jilson" wrote: I > file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists onhG > a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that theyt > log an enhancement request.t  L I really hate this type of attitude. When engineers take the time to keep inN touch with actual users, I find it extremely "civil servant" attitude to forceN a customer to go though all the paperwork to report a problem/suggestion which? has already been reported informally directly to the engineers.o  M Shouldn't the engineers be empowered to decide what needs to be done and whato  suggestions are worth pursuing ?  M Considering that Compaq only wants to keep a limited number of VMS customers, L perhaps Compaq should eliminate the extra layers of paperwork and allow moreJ direct contacts betwene the customers and the engineers, the only 2 layers that count.w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:09:56 -0300+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> ( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????L Message-ID: <OFD5B7AEFD.413E1F56-ON03256A9C.006EA87D@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Suggestions to the engineers:e  D Mount a homepage to accept suggestions. If they dont want to receive
 garbage, theyt@ can put a password based in customers contract numbers, etc ....     RegardsC   FC    Z                                                                                           Z                     JF Mezei                                                              Z                     <jfmezei.spamnot@vid        Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com             Z                     eotron.ca>                  cc:                                       Z                                                 Assunto:     Re: Reboot to close a file   Z                     02/08/2001 17:10            ????                                      Z                     Responder a JF Mezei                                                  Z                                                                                           Z                                                                                                    "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:nI > file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists onhG > a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that theyn > log an enhancement request.w  I I really hate this type of attitude. When engineers take the time to keepr inH touch with actual users, I find it extremely "civil servant" attitude to force.H a customer to go though all the paperwork to report a problem/suggestion whichi? has already been reported informally directly to the engineers.i  H Shouldn't the engineers be empowered to decide what needs to be done and what  suggestions are worth pursuing ?  B Considering that Compaq only wants to keep a limited number of VMS
 customers,G perhaps Compaq should eliminate the extra layers of paperwork and allowh moreJ direct contacts betwene the customers and the engineers, the only 2 layers that count.d   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:12:16 -0300+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>O( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????L Message-ID: <OF1283002C.E3327E4D-ON03256A9C.006ED19B@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  K I just wanted to  save the SYSDUMP file with another name for analysis.....hI What I hate more is "I had this kind of problem a long time ago, I forgot  and did  the mistake again" . . .     Reg>   FC    S                                                                                    eS                     "antonio.carl                                                  eS                     ini"                 Para:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com             SS                     <arcarlini@ie        cc:                                       GS                     e.org>               Assunto:     Re: Reboot to close a file   TS                                          ????                                       S                     02/08/2001                                                     yS                     16:08                                                          TS                     Responder a                                                    ES                     "antonio.carl                                                  eS                     ini"                                                            S                                                                                    nS                                                                                                 F > The basic thing I would like to avoid this kind of problem is really "lock"
 > the file; > and dont permit it to be "renamed and deleted"  as I did.g  3 Renaming, rebooting and deleting is the correct waye to eliminate the file.  / Did you go through this procedure to change thec/ size of SYSDUMP.DMP? If not, why did you do it?    Antoniow   ---------------i- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgI   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:17:44 GMTn1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>5( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????2 Message-ID: <3B69B627.B6BB15D2@clarityconnect.com>  H There have been and are many many  suggestions for enhancement deliveredD to the VMS Engineering organization all the time.  Since they do notF have limitless funding these requests must be prioritized and the bestG way they have to gauge this is to see how often it has been requested. eE The way to request these things is, currently, the CSC and any directuD contact a customer may have with VMS Engineering in a formal settingG like CETS.  In a perfect world there would be some web page or whatevereE that listed all of these items and allowed voting or whatever on themeH but then this isn't a perfect world now is it and perfection costs a lotH of $$$.  Having me somehow log this to VMS Engineering gives them no wayG to judge where they will delight the most customers for the budget they 
 are given.   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:rK > > file.  If you would like this to get a higher priority (if it exists onbI > > a wish list at all) then contact your local CSC and request that theyo > > log an enhancement request.i > N > I really hate this type of attitude. When engineers take the time to keep inP > touch with actual users, I find it extremely "civil servant" attitude to forceP > a customer to go though all the paperwork to report a problem/suggestion whichA > has already been reported informally directly to the engineers.n > O > Shouldn't the engineers be empowered to decide what needs to be done and whatn" > suggestions are worth pursuing ? > O > Considering that Compaq only wants to keep a limited number of VMS customers, N > perhaps Compaq should eliminate the extra layers of paperwork and allow moreL > direct contacts betwene the customers and the engineers, the only 2 layers
 > that count.t   -- aD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:38:45 -0400.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????+ Message-ID: <3B69BA47.9C6F43F@videotron.ca>    "Mark D. Jilson" wrote: G > The way to request these things is, currently, the CSC and any direct F > contact a customer may have with VMS Engineering in a formal setting > like CETS.  N 1- Why can't engineers remport to management that they have received a requestN for feature XX from customers. Why force the customers to repeat their stories0 through all sorts of layers of heavy management.  M 2- Not everyone has access to the CSC. I remember trying to report a bug on asL product and for the privilege of doing so, the canadian CSC wanted to chargeM me 1 hour of consulting at $250.00 for the privilege of allowing me to reportp a bug.  J 3- Please stop seing that CETS thing as the only way for customers to meetJ engineers. comp.os.vms reaches engineers YEAR ROUND, and reaches customersH from around the world. That CETS thing is just a local event in the USA.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:52:41 +0100 + From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> ( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????' Message-ID: <3B69BD99.2EC96E53@iee.org>    JF Mezei wrote:tO > Shouldn't the engineers be empowered to decide what needs to be done and whatP" > suggestions are worth pursuing ?  % One of the reasons that OpenVMS is soo* stable is that you don't let 100 engineers+ each decide to tweak the code just a littler to "help out".  . Stuff gets evaluated and only gets implemented0 if the appropriate person decides that it should, go in. (Don't ask me who "appropriate" might. be for this bit of code ... I was not directly in OpenVMS Engineering).  + Remember that once a crash happens, OpenVMS-- will pass control over to the boottime stuff.5* OpenVMS itself must be potentially broken,) otherwise it would not be crashing, so ite- hands off to the much simpler boottime stuff.O- The boottime stuff is pretty reliable becausee/ it does not have too much in the way of brains.k* It knows that there was a dump file and it, knows where it was, so it's going to use it.0 You'd better not have stored anything meaningful1 in those blocks! Adding some further intelligence ( to that simple code so that it sometimes& knows not to write where it thinks the) dump file is, is a risk. All code changes  are a risk.    It's quite likely that whaty# looks like a quick five minute hack=( will be thought to be too much of a risk& compared to leaving things as they are$ (where OpenVMS now protects you from# doing something really silly at the & expense of needing a reboot to reclaim some space).  , Remember in the situation we are discussing,) you can always recover the space *now* by * putting things back as they were. The dump. code will use SYSDUMP3.DMP and not SYSDUMP.DMP0 (unless you have already rebooted, in which case/ it's the other way around). The one you cannot  ' delete is the that the dump will go to. ( Pick a convenient time, mangle the files however you want and reboot.   Antonio    --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orge   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 14:08:16 -0700h1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)a( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <Km7rJ0Rb6rzm@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  [ In article <3B69BA47.9C6F43F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:n > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote: H >> The way to request these things is, currently, the CSC and any directG >> contact a customer may have with VMS Engineering in a formal settingc
 >> like CETS.t > L > 3- Please stop seing that CETS thing as the only way for customers to meetL > engineers. comp.os.vms reaches engineers YEAR ROUND, and reaches customersJ > from around the world. That CETS thing is just a local event in the USA.  ?    Note he said "like CETS". Similar symposia are held in otherwG countries and would presumably also provide opportunities for feedback. P It's rumoured that in the ancient "D|I|G|I|T|A|L golden age" events such as this( were even known to be held in Canada :-)  N    I imagine that CETS, like its US Symposia predecessors, gets attendees fromI many countries, not just the US. I know that at the ones I've attended in-0 the past I've run into a lot of other Canadians.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:09:04 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)9( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????0 Message-ID: <009FFEFE.4C20FEAD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <3B69BA47.9C6F43F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:p >"Mark D. Jilson" wrote:H >> The way to request these things is, currently, the CSC and any directG >> contact a customer may have with VMS Engineering in a formal settingl
 >> like CETS.d >kO >1- Why can't engineers remport to management that they have received a requestcO >for feature XX from customers. Why force the customers to repeat their storiesr1 >through all sorts of layers of heavy management.L  H Management usually needs to hear something from customers make them feelH impotent^H^H^H^Hrtant and to justify their tax write-off for their three martini luncheons.    N >2- Not everyone has access to the CSC. I remember trying to report a bug on aM >product and for the privilege of doing so, the canadian CSC wanted to charge N >me 1 hour of consulting at $250.00 for the privilege of allowing me to report >a bug.   G Nothing hurts to shout what you've found here.  I did that with the DCLtH CTRL-Y/DEFINE/CONTINUE bug and I also reported it to CSC.  Initially, itG wasn't my bug but I verified it and I decided I wanted DCL to function  F properly so I reported it.  I'd wager a few other reader here would do	 the same.c    K >3- Please stop seing that CETS thing as the only way for customers to meet5K >engineers. comp.os.vms reaches engineers YEAR ROUND, and reaches customers-I >from around the world. That CETS thing is just a local event in the USA.r  : ... and fastly eroding to a PeeCee weenie circle-jerk.  :(   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMy            lJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes*   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:53:45 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>A( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <3B69CBD5.147C3A1A@videotron.ca>   "antonio.carlini" wrote:0 > Stuff gets evaluated and only gets implemented2 > if the appropriate person decides that it should > go in.  I But if engineers get feedback from real customers, then the engineers can C qualify that suggestion with their opinion on implementation issuestE (difficult, easy etc) when discussing the issue with the folks who doaM prioritize what should go in or not. Engineers can also talk to the customerslN to get further information on why such and such a suggestion would be useful. K When management layers process requests from customers, they don't have theeG level of technological interaction and thus cannot qualify the customerdM request nor do they have measn the request clarifications. And the managementrL layers isolate the engineers from customers and make it harder for engineers& to work on what customers really want.    - > Remember that once a crash happens, OpenVMS./ > will pass control over to the boottime stuff.- ...-/ > The boottime stuff is pretty reliable becausem1 > it does not have too much in the way of brains.., > It knows that there was a dump file and it. > knows where it was, so it's going to use it.  N But if SYSGEN's DUMPSTYLE is a dynamic parameter, one would assume that VMS isJ capable of changing that very low level stuff that gets activated when VMSN gets very sick. So changing the location of the dump file should not be such a difficult thing, should it ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:10:30 -0700o< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????) Message-ID: <3B69CFD6.28E612CD@intel.com>D  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  M > I just wanted to  save the SYSDUMP file with another name for analysis..... K > What I hate more is "I had this kind of problem a long time ago, I forgot 	 > and didy > the mistake again" . . .  L Right, but you've used the "wrong tool".  Having done so, you now seem to be pleading that VMS be changed.   N We've all made mistakes during our "youth" with VMS (oh, well, and even in ourP "old age" :-).  There is no shame in that.  But please think about your approach/ to problems.  For example, _if_ had you stated,s  J    "I tried to rename SYSDUMP.DMP so that I could save it, analyze it, andJ     then delete it, but now I find I can't delete it.  What's wrong?  What*     should I do? What should I have done?"  H then people would first tell you that, if all you wanted was to save theG dump for (possibly temporary) analysis, you just need to use ANAL/CRASHtK and SDA> COPY the file somewhere convenient.  They would also tell you thattK you cannot delete the SYSDUMP.DMP that was accessed when the system booted,mH even if it has been renamed, that VMS has saved you from a possible fateK worse then death (professionally!), and that you really don't need to worrybJ or do anything about the situation until you have an opportunity to reboot and cleanup after yourself. :-)e  H OTOH, you'll get no support for suggestions to change VMS if you haven'tF demonstrated that the "correct" means of dealing with your problem areK inadequate.  While less experienced folk may _guess_ that some task can be,oI or should be, done in a certain way, that doesn't mean they're correct ornH that VMS should be changed to conform to their naive/inexperienced worldG view.  Better to try to learn the supported, conventional ways of doingbE things first, and only when those means are found wanting, suggest anD alternative or enhancement.0       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Aug 2001 00:29:13 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>.( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????H Message-ID: <y4vgk6qeo6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   M > But if SYSGEN's DUMPSTYLE is a dynamic parameter, one would assume that VMSvO > is capable of changing that very low level stuff that gets activated when VMScN > gets very sick. So changing the location of the dump file should not be such  > a difficult thing, should it ?  K They are not quite comparable. DUMPSTYLE has a restricted range, and can be I changed atomically. If it has the wrong value, you get the wrong style ofeL dump. If, on the other hand, the LBN/extent of the dump file are wrong, your system disk is toast.   M Think of what would happen if the system were to crash at any time during the N change to the in-memory data structures being made. You have to guarantee that@ things not go wrong in every single possible sequence of events.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 18:07:29 -0700a1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)r( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <rCX6OTroY7kb@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  1 In article <009FFEFE.4C20FEAD@SendSpamHere.ORG>, iC     system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:w  O >>2- Not everyone has access to the CSC. I remember trying to report a bug on arN >>product and for the privilege of doing so, the canadian CSC wanted to chargeO >>me 1 hour of consulting at $250.00 for the privilege of allowing me to reportC >>a bug. > I > Nothing hurts to shout what you've found here.  I did that with the DCLnJ > CTRL-Y/DEFINE/CONTINUE bug and I also reported it to CSC.  Initially, itI > wasn't my bug but I verified it and I decided I wanted DCL to function -H > properly so I reported it.  I'd wager a few other reader here would do > the same.b >   F    Well that depends on what it is one has found. The DCL bug is OK toH post here because it doesn't compromise the system, you're only shootingG yourself if you trigger it. OTOH, we've had examples of system crasherstH posted in the past. While it certainly gets results quick when something; like that gets posted it's not a very helpful way to do it.   I    I'd suggest that for serious/security related bugs you'd be better off C to send private email to one of the Compaq folks who hang out here.   I    I can certainly understand the temptation though. If I was getting the.H $250 runaround JF talks about I'd be tempted to tell them to let me talkJ to someone who knew what they were doing or I'd post the details on c.o.v. :-)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:54:06 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <3B6A2E6D.3A842E23@videotron.ca>   "Kenneth H. Fairfield" wrote: J > then people would first tell you that, if all you wanted was to save theI > dump for (possibly temporary) analysis, you just need to use ANAL/CRASH / > and SDA> COPY the file somewhere convenient.    M However, while this method is fine, fabio's problem highlights a problem that J is to become more and more common as VMS' remaining mission is for systems that never go down.   N The ability to dynamically reconfigure VMS without a reboot is going to becomeK more and more important. Changing the location of the dump file dynamicallyn should be possible.y  M Of course, in a cluster, this is perhaps not as important is the architecturegN allow you to shutdown any node to reboot it without impacting service. But notO every application has the luxury of being able to work "non-stop" on a cluster.,   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 01:08:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-( Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????, Message-ID: <3B6A31C2.AF5E9DE4@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:O > Think of what would happen if the system were to crash at any time during the>P > change to the in-memory data structures being made. You have to guarantee thatB > things not go wrong in every single possible sequence of events.  N OK' system boots, and knows that if it crashes, it has 100,000 blocks startingM at LBN 345 to dumps its memory contents. The file located at that location ist opened and "locked".  ) You want to change this without a reboot.t  M -if new location is smaller, then first update the size of file in the memoryw structure, thenbV update the LBN to point to the new location. (otherwise, switch the other way around). 	 H -then, you open the new file and lock it, and if succesful, you can then close/release the old file.s  P I suspect it would be fairly easy to safely change these parameters dynamically.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Aug 2001 00:01:21 -0500o7 From: hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)o> Subject: Re: Reboot to close a file ????[OT] - CETS attendance3 Message-ID: <YznH27WFNIv5@eisner.encompasserve.org>u   Hi,t   Not to get too OT, but...t  ` I attended CETS last year.  At one of the "pre-symposia" events, I was in a clasroom environment^ with two gentlemen from the Czech Republic.  So, yes, there are attendees from many countries.   Thanks,  Brad  a >In article <Km7rJ0Rb6rzm@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:e] > In article <3B69BA47.9C6F43F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:n >> "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:I >>> The way to request these things is, currently, the CSC and any direct H >>> contact a customer may have with VMS Engineering in a formal setting >>> like CETS. >> oM >> 3- Please stop seing that CETS thing as the only way for customers to meetsM >> engineers. comp.os.vms reaches engineers YEAR ROUND, and reaches customers K >> from around the world. That CETS thing is just a local event in the USA.s > A >    Note he said "like CETS". Similar symposia are held in other I > countries and would presumably also provide opportunities for feedback.4R > It's rumoured that in the ancient "D|I|G|I|T|A|L golden age" events such as this* > were even known to be held in Canada :-) > P >    I imagine that CETS, like its US Symposia predecessors, gets attendees fromK > many countries, not just the US. I know that at the ones I've attended inn2 > the past I've run into a lot of other Canadians. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:58:45 -0700t% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>s$ Subject: Run 3 phase PS on 2 phases?) Message-ID: <3B69B0F5.F55E7CE1@rdrop.com>   G I've inherited a DEC rack-mount 3-phase power supply (P/N 70-30101-08).oE Since I live in a stereotypical residential neighborhood, I only havedB 2-phase power available.  I've opened it up (oh no! the warranty'sH voided!) and it appears at a casual glance that each of the three phases5 is simply used to power 1/3 of the available outlets.v  G So, can I run this on 2-phase and just use the outlets that work?  WhatlC if I wire two of the phases together inside so I can use all of 'em-D (don't need 'em all, but it'd save hunting down which are powered byF which...)  It'd be nice to simply wire this to my UPSes and distributeA power from it (not to mention the geek factor- I've already found ? conduit that fits where the 3-phase supply came in originally.)   D Other equipment in the rack consists primarily of BA-356 shelves and4 other 110 powered equipment; no 2- or 3-phase stuff.  C Photos of the PS (internal & external) can be posted to webspace on. request.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:54:39 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t( Subject: Re: Run 3 phase PS on 2 phases?' Message-ID: <3B6A045F.70DAD654@fsi.net>    Dean Woodward wrote: > I > I've inherited a DEC rack-mount 3-phase power supply (P/N 70-30101-08). G > Since I live in a stereotypical residential neighborhood, I only haveoD > 2-phase power available.  I've opened it up (oh no! the warranty'sJ > voided!) and it appears at a casual glance that each of the three phases7 > is simply used to power 1/3 of the available outlets.h > I > So, can I run this on 2-phase and just use the outlets that work?  WhatnE > if I wire two of the phases together inside so I can use all of 'empF > (don't need 'em all, but it'd save hunting down which are powered byH > which...)  It'd be nice to simply wire this to my UPSes and distributeC > power from it (not to mention the geek factor- I've already foundoA > conduit that fits where the 3-phase supply came in originally.)e > F > Other equipment in the rack consists primarily of BA-356 shelves and6 > other 110 powered equipment; no 2- or 3-phase stuff. > E > Photos of the PS (internal & external) can be posted to webspace on*
 > request.  D Go to http://www.montagar.com/users.html and look for Pat Jankowiak,C then follow one if his e-mail links. He has some info. you may findt useful.h -- y David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 14:47:50 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) N Subject: Re: SUN 'super'computer [was Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate]3 Message-ID: <SiC$M+vOpgDo@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  R In article <00256A9C.005252AC.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:@ > --0__=oYPREX7aYRDAX1wNH5UtZzvjhCSZhcqCTpQAJmyjHLMNsBBSbETXCacX. > Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Disposition: inlinei# > Content-transfer-encoding: base64w >  > N > Q29udGFjdDogICBUZWw6IDMwNjMgIC0gIElTIC0gSW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUsIDFzdCBGbG9vciwgN > QnJpZGdlIFN0cmVldCBQbGF6YQ0KDQoNClRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIHN0b3J5IC0gY2FuJ3Qgc2F5IGl0N > IHNlZW1zIG11Y2ggb2YgYSBzdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIHRvIG1lOw0KDQpTdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIHRv  ' Please do not post MIME to comp.os.vms..   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:55:59 GMTn  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user baseu8 Message-ID: <65ijmt0grmc6hbllv77d3kg0vdjfsd2nvd@4ax.com>  3 On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:26:34 +0100, andrew harrison ! <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:U   >p
 >jlsue wrote:r >> t6 >> On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:45:31 +0100, andrew harrison$ >> <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >> a >> >> M >> >> How about this one - checkout the original SPARC III announcement date:hP >> >> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9710/sunflash.971006.1.html (October >> >> 6, 1997)P >> >> "The UltraSPARC-III microprocessor is expected to sample during the summer >> >> of 1998" >> >>9R >> >> Now, tell us again how the SPARC III will be based on latest technologies .. >> >>s >> >; >> >How ironic Kerry that you of all people should bring upS: >> >roadmaps and the timely delivery of technology covered >> >in the roadmaps. >> >3 >> >Don't you have any shame, you work for Compaq ?r >> > >> mH >> Nice answer Andy.  What's wrong, can't come up with a real one so you' >> just cast dispersions the other way?r >>  I >> You constantly hold Compaq to the fire for missing deadlines and beingeH >> "truthful" (whatever that means in your mind) in their announcements.B >> But somehow you don't expect Sun to counteract the lies in thisE >> announcement.  What I found really interesting is that the Jan 28,pI >> 2000 announcement is almost a re-hash of the same article (some of theC >> same wording appears).  See:  >> lL >> http://www.sun.com/microelectronics/newsreleases/newsreleases.012800.html >u< >Shame on you as well, you also apparently work for Compaq. : >Repeat after me, all Compaqs processor roadmaps are lies 	 >5 times.  > 8 >Incedentally your memory is also pretty short, you have3 >forgotten the current situation and you have also  6 >forgotten the whole sorry story of WildFire, 2 years 9 >later than origionally trolled and slower than expected.r >o= >You also forgot the EV processor delays. Remember it wasn't n= >me who brought up people not delivering on their technology s7 >promises it was Kerry, but since both you and he seem g4 >stupid enough to do so its only fair to remind you 3 >that Compaq leads the pack in non deliver and has t5 >done for some time before the current Alpha debacle.  >i: >So quite why people are so suprised about Compaq dumping , >Alpha is beyond me, its par for the course. >v  A Are you just being dense today?  Nowhere did any make claims that0D processors and systems haven't been late... except those claims madeB by you to try to cast Compaq in a bad light as if they're the only ones.o  D Your attempt  to claim the high ground here is totally laugh-worthy.  C In case you missed the point, yet again:  Sun (meaning you) have noo? business taking swipes at the competition for their lateness inhD producing new products and missing goals because Sun has missed them quite spectacularly as well.  @ Most of us in here realize that that's part of the risk of doing something new.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:33:25 -0500r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s' Subject: Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory]q' Message-ID: <3B69FF65.63DAA44B@fsi.net>e  & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: >  > JF,q > M > >I beleive that Unix has a construct which uses the tilde ~ to point to thedN > >login directory so that something such as ~/some/directory/myfile.txt would6 > >work no matter what the currect directory would be. > > / > >Shouldn't VMS have some way to do the same ?i > >sB > >I realise that one can define a rooted logical that would allowP > >MY$LOGIN:[some.directory] but it would be nice if it were to become something > >that is standard. > P > I must have assuredly misunderstood you, because SYS$LOGIN seems simple enough > to meet your requirement.m  * I think what he wants is to (for example):  * $ COPY ~SYSTEM:[STARTUP]MOUNT_DISKS.COM []  2 ...while logged in as some user other than SYSTEM.  H That said, if tilde were a valid character in a logical name, this wouldC be easy enough to simulate using rooted logical names, with certain0 limitations.   -- H David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/_   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:35:52 -0500P1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>I' Subject: Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory] ' Message-ID: <3B69FFF8.605B5B33@fsi.net>   & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: >  > JF,e > M > >I beleive that Unix has a construct which uses the tilde ~ to point to the N > >login directory so that something such as ~/some/directory/myfile.txt would6 > >work no matter what the currect directory would be. > >k/ > >Shouldn't VMS have some way to do the same ?_ > >aB > >I realise that one can define a rooted logical that would allowP > >MY$LOGIN:[some.directory] but it would be nice if it were to become something > >that is standard. > P > I must have assuredly misunderstood you, because SYS$LOGIN seems simple enough > to meet your requirement.e   Actually, check this out...   C DJMV01::DDACHTERA$ define ~ddachtera user$root:[000000.]/trans=concw DJMV01::DDACHTERA$ sh log/proc   (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)a     "DFU$NOSMG" = "X".,   "DTR$STARTUP" = "USER$COM:DTR$STARTUP.COM"#   "EDTINI" = "SYS$LOGIN:EDTINI.EDT"M"   "SYS$COMMAND" = "_DJMV01$NTY21:"   "SYS$DISK" = "SYS$SYSDEVICE:"y    "SYS$ERROR" = "_DJMV01$NTY21:"    "SYS$INPUT" = "_DJMV01$NTY21:")   "SYS$OUTPUT" [super] = "_DJMV01$NTY21:"t(   "SYS$OUTPUT" [exec] = "_DJMV01$NTY21:"   "THIS" = "THAT"t   "TOOLS" = "USER$EXE:"n   "TT" = "_NTY21:"&   "VAXLINK2" = "USER$EXE:VAXLINK2.EXE"&   "~DDACHTERA" = "USER$ROOT:[000000.]"   -- d David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:51:14 -0400d( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>' Subject: Re: SYS$LOGIN:[some.directory]h+ Message-ID: <3B6A1FB2.2F2FCECB@bigfoot.com>n  C > Why?  It's not standard on UNIX.  (Try it on Sun's Bourne shell).  > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation ? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupRG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingo  B All that means is that Sun's implementation of sh is not standard.   HM   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:26:01 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VAX C2 Message-ID: <tHia7.558$Yx2.10437@news.cpqcorp.net>  w In article <86C29E8BBC24ED0B.60C1A3F3EF2F2B75.55D3500FA7C3B659@lp.airnews.net>, GreyCloud <wholland@tscnet.com> writes:Y? :Does anyone know if there are any online VAX C documentation??   F   Roughly a decade ago, the non-ANSI C VAX C compiler was replaced by @   the ANSI C DEC C compiler, now known as the Compaq C compiler.B   Compaq C offers a VAX C mode, and can be installed on an OpenVMS   system running VAX C.   1   Compaq C requires OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2 and later.o  I :I have looked at Compaqs' site, but no luck.  Did a google search and nocE :luck.  I may have the software installed wrong or a missing logical.0  G   OpenVMS (VAX) and C versions, details, exact error message text, etc?j  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:17:09 -0700n% From: GreyCloud <wholland@tscnet.com>i Subject: Re: VAX CO Message-ID: <D808BB825C9EAC96.F1D84EE5FD1C66E7.AA6D1902F419BBDE@lp.airnews.net>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:O  y > In article <86C29E8BBC24ED0B.60C1A3F3EF2F2B75.55D3500FA7C3B659@lp.airnews.net>, GreyCloud <wholland@tscnet.com> writes:cA > :Does anyone know if there are any online VAX C documentation??h > G >   Roughly a decade ago, the non-ANSI C VAX C compiler was replaced byfB >   the ANSI C DEC C compiler, now known as the Compaq C compiler.D >   Compaq C offers a VAX C mode, and can be installed on an OpenVMS >   system running VAX C.c >h3 >   Compaq C requires OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2 and later.u > K > :I have looked at Compaqs' site, but no luck.  Did a google search and no G > :luck.  I may have the software installed wrong or a missing logical.t > I >   OpenVMS (VAX) and C versions, details, exact error message text, etc?   I Yes.  I still have to get a scsci box to put in more drives and a cd-rom. J Do you know how to get the hobbyist license to upgrade??  I went to DECCUSN but the site was rather obscure about it.  The VAX C is ok for now, but I needP to know what the float range is.... I'm getting some big humongous number for an output that I know is wrong.     >a > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:05:47 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> / Subject: Re: Virus Alert at Compaq (2001.08.02)v; Message-ID: <ONma7.57174$uH4.3888643@news20.bellglobal.com>t  < "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message, news:3B6992D2.8E38BE7E@clarityconnect.com...C > Here is the response from our security team concerning this item.t > J > " We contacted OPS on this right away.  The server was scanned with bothJ > Inoculan and NAV, and nothing was found.  They have pulled the documentsJ > and scanned them, they report as being clean you may want to update your% > database in the scanner being used.  >rI > FYI: There is a 4 tier process for moving items onto the COMPAQ.COM webaH > pages, which includes a multiple scans by both Inoculan and NAV.  This7 > document was clean all the way through the process. "  >c* > Compaq's Software Security Response Team > security-ssrt@compaq.com > Mark Menkhus2 > Subscribe to our Security Advisory mailing list:; > http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mailing-list.shtml"n >n > --F > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY/ > - jilly@clarityconnect.com - Brett Bodine fani- > - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com - since 1975 or son- > - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -i  L This does seem very strange. At approximately 4:00 AM I tried downloading toL tool 3 times and received the same error message from InoculateIT (I receiveI a new virus signature file every 4 days and I'm sitting behind a hardwareoK firewall in my house with no other computers, so I think I'm safe). If your K site wasn't infected, then I wonder if it's possible for the file to become-0 infected "along the way" (a very scary thought).  J p.s. I did a complete virus scan of my system and everything is/was clean.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:46:00 -0400s2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>% Subject: Re: WATCHER compile problemsc* Message-ID: <3B69ADF8.4D7E0FAA@oracle.com>  8 it is called TPAMAC...  That's tpAmac (note A and not C): and it should, I think, have come on the VMS distribution 9 (though now that I look at it - my VMS V7.3 system has a M  TPAMAC.REQ with a date of 1995).   Bob Koehler wrote: > a > In article <3b688422.6375467@news.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:c > >uE > > It's SYS$LIBRARY:TPAMAC.REQ.  Just compile it as you did STARLET:. > >o > J > Is it possibly missing from current Freeware kits?  I've installed three) > updates to BLISS on my Alpha and still:r >  > $dir sys$library:tpcmacm# > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundC > ' > or is it perhaps only in the VAX kit?  > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation4? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingI   -- e> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Aug 2001 14:02:49 -0400t* From: Dan.Fabrick@SRS.gov (Dan M. Fabrick)% Subject: Re: WATCHER compile problems-+ Message-ID: <2001Aug2.140249.13089@srs.gov>:  I In article <y47kwm7bnf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,  7 jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de says...  >'L >Hunter was talking TP_A_MAC and you are talking TP_C_MAC. Dunno who's right >and who's wrong.y >a >        Jan  M Hunter is correct, naturally.  The _c_ was a typo.  Hunter's solution worked hP and I was able to compile and link WATCHER.  (I had to create a new OPT file to O work with VMS 7.2-1, but renaming it seems to have worked.).  I am testing the s exe right now.   Thanks, Dant   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 19:44:15 GMTc. From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>E Subject: Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation tomH Message-ID: <j4ia7.30660$gj1.2890568@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message& news:9kbimq$2gvc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...- > In article <3B67D547.AA7B87B0@TeraPort.de>, : >  Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes: > |>J > |>  Although - in Germany, "worker bee" and "working for the government"I > |> are supposed to be mutual exclusive. At least for "public servants".:K > |> They saying is: "What is the difference between a public servant and a:5 > |> piece of wood? The piece of wood works." :-)))))A > |> >n# > The same adage applies over here.'    L Having worked for the Federal government and for private industry, I think IL have some expertise here.  While it is convenient, and certainly popular, to: berate people who work for the government, that is a grossL overgeneralization.  There are lots of exceptionally dedicated, hard workingK and very bright people who work for the government.  There are also lots ofoK idiots and do nothings.  Both of these catagories exist in private industrypK as well.  Perhaps there are some more of the second kind in government, but'D the difference isn't staggering.  A big part of the problem with theI government is that they have a different set of rules.  For example, whenoG buying something, it is very important to give the impression that eachhL potential vendor has a fair shake.  Thus, where in private industry, someoneF would just decide which one to buy, in the government,you have to do aK request for proposals, etc.  (I know, not always - I'm generalizing)  These L cause great inefficiency.  There are other things like this, particularly in& the personel area that cause problems.       --     -  Stephen Fuldf   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:06:01 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>E Subject: Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to-6 Message-ID: <1010802195754.47969B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ' On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Stephen Fuld wrote:s  @ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message( > news:9kbimq$2gvc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu.../ > > In article <3B67D547.AA7B87B0@TeraPort.de>, < > >  Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes: > > |>L > > |>  Although - in Germany, "worker bee" and "working for the government"K > > |> are supposed to be mutual exclusive. At least for "public servants".nM > > |> They saying is: "What is the difference between a public servant and ag7 > > |> piece of wood? The piece of wood works." :-)))))G > > |> > >Q% > > The same adage applies over here.g >  > N > Having worked for the Federal government and for private industry, I think IN > have some expertise here.  While it is convenient, and certainly popular, to< > berate people who work for the government, that is a grossN > overgeneralization.  There are lots of exceptionally dedicated, hard workingM > and very bright people who work for the government.  There are also lots of0M > idiots and do nothings.  Both of these catagories exist in private industry>M > as well.  Perhaps there are some more of the second kind in government, butkF > the difference isn't staggering.  A big part of the problem with theK > government is that they have a different set of rules.  For example, whennI > buying something, it is very important to give the impression that eachaN > potential vendor has a fair shake.  Thus, where in private industry, someoneH > would just decide which one to buy, in the government,you have to do aM > request for proposals, etc.  (I know, not always - I'm generalizing)  ThesehN > cause great inefficiency.  There are other things like this, particularly in( > the personel area that cause problems.  G This reminds of a Ken Olsen quote, possibly apocryphal.  Some reporter sG asked him in an interview, "How many people work for you?"  He answerede "Oh, about half of them."c   -- l John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.427 ************************