1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 05 Aug 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 432       Contents:( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateB Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one)$ Re: Compaq as a technology leader??? HSZ40B Console Connector8 Re: HWRPB (Alpha) blundering in the dark - info required8 Re: HWRPB (Alpha) blundering in the dark - info required% Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance % Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance 6 Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) Re: openssh  Re: Sun keep 'em coming  Re: VMS expertise available < Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to< Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 07:15:09 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate C Message-ID: <1o6b7.995$eU4.125409@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:Vbfa7.542$Yx2.10238@news.cpqcorp.net...  C > They should probably have taken notice of the Australian debacle.  >   A My guess is that this is the last win that Compaq will see in the J supercomputer areana for a while, if ever again.  IBM dominates the TOP500I list of super computers and even Sun beats out Compaq.  All the wins that I Jesse Lipcon talked about just before he left are yet to be delivered and E consequently are not on the list.  As a result, Sun has twice as many 3 entried as Compaq does no matter what architecture.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:51:22 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate C Message-ID: <K16b7.971$eU4.122103@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:y3i97.356$Yx2.7504@news.cpqcorp.net... ; > Bill Todd wrote in message <9k47th$3t$1@pyrite.mv.net>...  > > K > >In other words, let's (once again) just accept Compaq's actions as faits A > >accomplis and forget them - until the next time.  I think not.  > >  > C > What exactly is it that you want Bill?  Some admission of a grand < > conspiracy?  Resignation of the Chariman?  Ritual suicide? > , > Let us know what exactly will satisfy you. >   2 How about a statement like those of Intel and IBM?  J "Compaq is commiting one billion dollars to retain and attract application  software for OpenVMS and Tru64."  L Intel has made claims of something like a billion for getting apps for IA64.  0 IBM claims investing a billion on Linux support.  K All we hear is how Compaq is going to cut and cut and cut and cut to reduce E expenses by a billion in 2001.  There has been some talk about buying K consulting companies.  But nothing about investing in Compaq's own software  that I can detect.  I Alternatively, how about a statement from Intel that put concrete support L behind their supposed support for VMS and Tru64 on IA64.  At this point, whyG does Intel need to invest anything?  Alpha is dead.  MIPS is dead.  Now " Intel needs to attack Sun and IBM.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:56:22 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate C Message-ID: <q66b7.978$eU4.122973@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   - "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote in message 2 news:20jbmtg0cfml0h8jj8ip06p59206itdsme@4ax.com...  E > One thing to remember, too, on the IA64-based servers is that we'll H > have experience from both our Intel-based servers group as well as ourA > Alpha-based servers group.  Also, as far as OpenVMS systems are A > concerned, you will have the same, in-depth testing process for G > IA64-based OpenVMS systems as we do now for Alpha.  I seriously doubt H > they'll be any less reliable (as long as you don't go putting in cheap > substitute parts).  I Why do you think that?  If this is the case, then there is no significant I advantage to VMS running on Intel platforms.  The pricing on the platform A and all adapters will be higher so that it can run VMS and Tru64.   G Go look up the pricing on the DEC602 and the equivalent Compaq Ethernet / adapter.  Ditto for the Fibre Channel adapters.   G It is true that VMS and Tru64 finds problems in adapters that work just D "fine" with Windows.  Just minor problems like data corruption which1 apparently aren't important to Windows customers.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 07:10:13 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate C Message-ID: <pj6b7.991$eU4.115775@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message # news:3B67EB5D.83F1A538@127.0.0.1... H > When speaking about EV8 he puts RAMBUS as a benefit to the design, yetA > an earlier article discussing RAMBUS (and commenting on Intel's J > adoptions of thus) concludes it offers no, indeed a negative performance > gain. G > Nowhere does he critizise in the EV8 document the adoption of RAMBUS.  > G > Where does this leave one thinking about other technical arguments he  > puts? Do we see a pattern?  L EV7/8 interface directly to RDRAM (Rambus is the company) while Intel uses aJ bridge chip to connect to the memory.  RDRAM was designed to be glueless -# it builds in the memory controller.   L Intel has build a memory controller into the P4 chip which talks to a memoryL controller in the bridge which has a memory controller to talk to the memory controller in the RDRAM chip.   J The reason that Intel does this is that they need to have someplace to put3 the logic to arbritrate between multiple CPU chips.   E EV7/8 integrated the multiprocessor arbitration into the EV7/8 chips.   I Note that EV7 with an integrated memory interface that supports up to 128 F CPUs is estimated to be the same die area as Mckinley which requires aG separate memory controller and its anybody's guess whether the McKinley 0 memory controller will support more than 4 CPUs.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 08:06:23 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>K Subject: Re: Comments from a VMS customer (and I would like to stay as one) B Message-ID: <387b7.937$M3.142091@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message , news:Gaka7.561$Yx2.10369@news.cpqcorp.net...
 >   Also see: ; >     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms.html  >   J The roadmap in the above presentation is rather unclear as to what follows EV7.  I The roadmap shows EV7 in 64 CPU configurations.  It seems to me that long I ago presentations for EV7 hinted at 256 CPU configurations; certainly EV8 / would have at least doubled the number of CPUs.   L But there is nothing that indicates that Madison will incorporate an on-chip6 router to allow building configurations with 128 CPUs.  * By the way, there is an interesting quote:K "The ability to run OpenVMS, Tru64 Unix, or NSK on any Compaq server of our 
 choice..."  H Not only did no one explain the reality to the customer, but they didn'tB bother to check the consistency of the quotes they included in the
 presentation.   E Another quote refers to the "compelling roadmap", but Intel certainly H doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with a compelling roadmap.  Its moreK along the lines of "trust us, we're Intel and we are the greatest - in 1997 2 we will deliver the killer 64 bit architecture..."  K I also find the inclusion of "Who Moved My Cheese?" to immediately lower my J expectations for the rest of the presentation.  If you haven't read it, itK basically says that you have to expect that your supply of commodity cheese L will run out so you have to go find a new source of commodity cheese.    TheF concept of mice who look for gourmet cheese with lots of diversity andL innovation never occurred to the author, and certainly never occurred to theF people in Compaq who promote the book.  Nor is the concept of the miceL learning to produce their own cheese.  Nor is there any mention of rat traps holding cheese.   J I think that Intel CPUs are like the cheese in the book.  Compaq will keepL looking for the cheese where ever Intel puts it and when Dell decides to putK some cheese into a rat trap, Compaq will go right for it and that's the end 
 of Compaq.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:02:11 GMT * From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>- Subject: Re: Compaq as a technology leader??? + Message-ID: <3B6CE1BC.558AE4FF@prodigy.net>    Christof Brass wrote:  >  <snip> > < > As to a historical overview of PC industry I recently read! > Compaq introduced the Portable.   I Perhaps in the Wintel world, but I think there were already Osbornes and   Kaypros.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 07:46:23 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net ! Subject: HSZ40B Console Connector A Message-ID: <jR6b7.42101$WD1.2198825@e420r-atl2.usenetserver.com>   + Does anyone have the pinouts for the HSZ40B - console connector that they could send to me? , I need to wire an adapter so I can configure mine.    Thanks.  --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2001 02:27:25 -0700 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) A Subject: Re: HWRPB (Alpha) blundering in the dark - info required = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0108050127.2906a6a7@posting.google.com>    Hi,   < Another problem - I'm having a hard time in finding detailed
 documentation C on the SRM console in general (everything I look at gives it a wide  berth).   8 This includes "EC-QK8DF-TE" "Alpha SRM Console for Alpha Microprocessor Motherboards".   A Have I simply missed something, or on the wrong track altogether?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 18:13:49 +0100 + From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> A Subject: Re: HWRPB (Alpha) blundering in the dark - info required ' Message-ID: <3B6D7ECD.FE17582F@iee.org>    Patrick Young wrote:  H > I'm at home today playing with my Alphas - specifically trying to workL > out how to write a stand alone program that will run bootstrapped via SRM.  ' Somewhere on the COMPAQ site you should 2 be able to locate the EBSDK (Evaluation Board SDK)" that Digital Semiconductor used to) make available. Failing that, dig out the ( MILO sources for any Alpha Linux distro.  $ In there you will find a small piece' of code called micropal.s (or something ! very much like that). It includes & details of exactly how you are invoked by SRM (and also ARC console).  ! micropal is concerned with giving  you total control (i.e. you  start up, set up your  own PALcode and ditch the SRM).   H > I've had a dig around however have not found any good documentation on > the F > HWRPB that the SRM sets up. Is there comprehensive documentation for > the 3 > HWRPB that someone could give me a pointer to????   0 This is documented in the Alpha AXP Architecture. Reference Manual. I believe that an electronic* copy used to be available somewhere on the- COMPAQ site (although that may only have been 0 the handbook - which may not have everything you, need). Part III, Chapter 2. Inlcudes a whole* heap of info about the HWRPB, the console, console callbacks etc.   Antonio    --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:31:04 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>. Subject: Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominanceC Message-ID: <IK5b7.951$eU4.118490@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   2 Peter da Silva" <peter@abbnm.com> wrote in message news:9k1uvt$sfd@web.nmti.com... - > In article <9k1h91$8lc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, 1 > Kurt Shoens <shoens@lenny.sfrn.dnai.com> wrote: J > > In article <9k1e5g$lic@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:G > > >In the 64-bit arena, it's large sparse address spaces for high-end 
 databases. > G > > Please explain why this helps high-end databases.  The direct value K > > I can think of is the ability to address a large buffer pool that still I > > fits in physical memory.  Sparse addressing isn't necessary for that.  > L > I don't know any of the details... I'm just quoting notes I took at UsenixI > or LISA a year or so ago. It could be that there's an "or" relationship G > and not an "and" between the two points, and I don't recall the talk.   I Ah, theoretical statements of the value of 64 bit addressing, but nothing @ from anyone who actually produces a commercial database product.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:27:35 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>. Subject: Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominanceC Message-ID: <rH5b7.949$eU4.110194@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   3 "Peter da Silva" <peter@abbnm.com> wrote in message  news:9k1e5g$lic@web.nmti.com... F > In article <q7w87.3248$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,/ > mulp <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote:  > ? > > What software exactly was it that drove the demand for 386?  > D > For the people I knew who made the jump early, it was ports of Mac softwareH > that really needed large address spaces a-la the 68000 to run with any kindJ > of decent performance. The first Windows versions on the 386 didn't give you G > any way to do that, but when Win32s came out, so you could run 32-bit  softwareH > even on some older versions of Windows on the 386, it really took off.  G Try again.  I bought a shackmate 420SX (a radioshack PC rebranded DECpc L 420SX when they were going end of life and it came with Win 3.1.  That was aC 20mHz 486SX.  I think that Win 3.11 was available around that time.   - Win95 didn't show up for another year or two.   ' Win32s certainly wasn't available then.   D I think that 386's were still being sold because there was still old+ inventory of 386 components hanging around.   * There were memory managers, like EMS, etc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 05:32:28 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>? Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: No chance for OpenVMS) B Message-ID: <MT4b7.863$eU4.84273@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:EdY97.512$Yx2.9528@news.cpqcorp.net... G > Nope.  The console ROM has full support for network booting.  It uses  "PXE" L > (preboot execution environment) which uses things like DHCP, and MTFTP.  IK > am by no means an expert, but our expert tells me that this will not be a 
 > problem. >   J I believe that Bob Supnik directed that MOP support be removed from futureL Alpha consoles about five years ago.  The console supported bootp (the basis? for dhcp) and tftp (the basis for mtftp) from day one of Alpha.   I There's been nothing other than SMOP and the logistics of ensuring that a J compatible TCP stack is started early enough to make satellite booting viaK bootp/tftp as convenient as MOP booting.  If switching to bootp/tftp is not K a problem today, why wasn't the switch made when the two versions of DECnet K were creating all the problems with MOP booting.  The reason is that it was K easier to implement support for three ways of MOP booting than to switch to 4 bootp/tftp: DECnet Classic, DECnet PLUS, and LANACP.  F The neat thing about the LANACP MOP boot capability is that it becomes4 active shortly after all the devices are configured.  K Or is this an indication that a TCP/IP stack is going to be integrated into  VMS?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 05:53:21 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) C Message-ID: <lb5b7.900$eU4.106059@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:k7f97.325$Yx2.7164@news.cpqcorp.net...   K > Yeah, well I suggested that they simply write the damn device name to the 8 > disk itself (after all, it *is* a storage device)  ;-)  K Gee, that's exactly what they did - they wrote to a scsi code page where it 2 is independant of all on disk file system formats.  I If the unit number had been put in the homeblock, for example, then thereeJ would a migration problem adding FAT32 disks to a cluster - there would be no way to find the unit number.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:09:32 GMTc. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)oC Message-ID: <wq5b7.926$eU4.113279@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>w  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:f8f97.327$Yx2.7186@news.cpqcorp.net... = > And your point is?  The disk is just another ODS2/5 volume.    Ah, that's a relief.  I I didn't realize that the MBR is the same format as the DECstd boot blockoJ which is written to all disks by INITIALIZE, BACKUP, etc. on VAX and Alpha4 VMS systems and read and validate by Alpha consoles.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 06:01:20 GMTt. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)@B Message-ID: <Qi5b7.784$M3.120784@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  K Have you tried using it with Netscape from your VMS system?  From you LinuxcL system?  From your Sun system?  All I know is that it didn't work from 4 out) of 6 Windows NT and Windows 2000 systems.   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:l7f97.326$Yx2.7124@news.cpqcorp.net...sJ > Paul Jacobi gave me a demo of one connected to a SAN management station.& > Seemed to work fine (if a bit slow). >  > >a > >You got it to work????s > >aI > >What did you do, use Windows 4.0?  With win2k, RIB was very unreliablea whenJ > >I last tried to use it, circa March 2001.  It would work one minute and > thenH > >not the next.  We were trying to use it with the SAN applicance.  The firsteI > >step was to discard the (released/shipping) RIB module.  Then the nextd stepK > >was to discard the SAN Applicance and just connect the net storage array - > >controller to VCS systems via serial port.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:56:54 +03001 From: "_jussi" <jaakonaho@nospam.juhani.decus.fi>e Subject: Re: openssh+ Message-ID: <9kjq25$8nn$1@news.kolumbus.fi>    hi,l2 > is there a port of OpenSSH (client) for OpenVMS? haven't seen that.7 if you need a client, you could use fish. works nicely. F it used to be in:  http://www.free.lp.se/fish , but i seem not able toJ connect to it at the moment, but search "ssh client vms" and you should be able to find right urls.   _jussi   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:33:34 +00006! From: wanderer <quapla@xs4all.nl>n  Subject: Re: Sun keep 'em coming% Message-ID: <3B6D836E.67A7@xs4all.nl>n  F Just a thought, what if an independent company would buy the rights toE VMS and the layered products and port the stuff over to Sun hardware?iB Mentec afterall bought the rights from Dec for the PDP based OS's.   Ed   -- aB The Wanderer                      | Politici zijn gore oplichters.F quapla@xs4all.nl                  | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers6 http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla      | en neuspeuteraars.B Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid> '97 TL1000S                       | weet waar je bent geweest!   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2001 09:58:21 -0700m( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)$ Subject: Re: VMS expertise available= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0108050858.1a830441@posting.google.com>c  w "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%T3b7.626$M3.98885@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...rM > Keith's problem is much like many of the other people with VMS experience -vL > there is a surplus of people with VMS experience in the places were anyoneM > rational would want to live.  On the other hand, if you are willing to workoL > in such "desirable" places as NYC, there are VMS jobs, but given the costsC > of working in such places, the wages are effectively entry level.k  B Actually, that's not a problem for me.  My family enjoys living inA beautiful Colorado, but for the last 6 years I've worked wherevern+ people needed my assistance, including NYC.rC -------------------------------------------------------------------uC Keith Parris | keithparris "at" yahoo "dot" com |VMS consulting on:eC Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 05:41:16 GMTn. From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>E Subject: Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation to0F Message-ID: <005b7.2786$1p1.252535@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-NdsrVSIKdcdS@localhost... G > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:44:15, "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>3 > wrote: >0B > > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message* > > news:9kbimq$2gvc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...1 > > > In article <3B67D547.AA7B87B0@TeraPort.de>,f> > > >  Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes: > > > |>B > > > |>  Although - in Germany, "worker bee" and "working for the government"rB > > > |> are supposed to be mutual exclusive. At least for "public
 servants".I > > > |> They saying is: "What is the difference between a public servanty and a 9 > > > |> piece of wood? The piece of wood works." :-)))))w > > > |> > > > ' > > > The same adage applies over here.o > >  > >nH > > Having worked for the Federal government and for private industry, I think IlD > > have some expertise here.  While it is convenient, and certainly popular, to > > > berate people who work for the government, that is a gross >e > .. > E > Yes, I always get a laugh when I hear the expression 'efficiency of D > private industry', especially when used in the same breath as digs  > against public/civil servants.      K Wait a minute here.  The quality of the people is not the same thing as theeC efficiency of the operation.  While I think the level of governmentsL employees is fine, the system they work under forces inefficiencies.  In theL part of my earlier post that you snipped, I gave an example of one of these.  K The goals of agencies in the government are in general to provide a qualityrK service to their customers, and to follow certain government rules that areMK designed to provide the appearance of fairness - primarily in procurements,zJ and personel.  The following of these rules forces some inefficiencies andL the lack of a profit motive and the easy measurability of profit compared toK "provide a quality service" make it usually the case that the government isfH less efficient than private industry.  The issue of size can be either a5 benefit or a drawback, depending on the area as well.5   --     -  Stephen Fuldi   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:12:13 GMTs) From: "Larry" <mrbitty@cedar.alberni.net>nE Subject: Re: [OT] Market corrections (was Re: Alpha: an invitation toC2 Message-ID: <M7fb7.4$DD6.164902@news2.randori.com>  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-NdsrVSIKdcdS@localhost... G > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:44:15, "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>  > wrote: >fB > > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message* > > news:9kbimq$2gvc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...1 > > > In article <3B67D547.AA7B87B0@TeraPort.de>,h> > > >  Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes: > > > |>B > > > |>  Although - in Germany, "worker bee" and "working for the government"uB > > > |> are supposed to be mutual exclusive. At least for "public
 servants".I > > > |> They saying is: "What is the difference between a public servant  and a 9 > > > |> piece of wood? The piece of wood works." :-)))))c > > > |> > > > ' > > > The same adage applies over here.  > >eK In my view the same principles apply to all large organizations; for-profithH or non-profit. A large organization is made up of some number of smallerL sub-organizations, each having someone in charge. If the person in charge isI energetic, capable, imaginative and dedicated, that sub-organization willnL tend to become more efficient and effective over time and be staffed by goodK people. If the person in charge lacks these qualities, the sub-organizationnK will reflect that too. It is unlikely that a given sub-organization will be K far outside the norm or the parent organization for very long. A dud put in-I charge of a sub-organization within a larger organization staffed by highjB performers won't last because the performance will be below what'sE acceptable. Conversely, a gogetter won't last in a large organization J staffed by duds because the employees will be asked to perform and many ofL them "work" there just because they haven't had to perform, and stay becauseC they have few choices. The really good performers work to their own-H standards which are above what is expected of them in a poor or mediocreI organization, and this creates conflict within them and the organization.5H Thus there is quite a bit of momentum in a large organization tending toK maintain the status quo. It takes awhile to ruin a good one and even longereK to reform a bad one, but each can be done. Look at what William Agee did to.K Morrison-Knudsen and what Chainsaw Al did to those where he worked. Also, ar@ succession of IBM CEO's ran a great organization into near ruin.  E Responsibility rests at the top. A corporation will fail if the share1J holders fail to demand good oversight from the board or the board fails toH demand effective long and short term performance from the CEO. Imagine aG major corporation selecting a senile actor as CEO and retaining him forKJ eight years, or a CEO staying in the position with public knowledge of hisG having oral sex with an intern in his office. What kind of organization-I would you expect to have when members of the board (Congress) were almosttI routinely found to act in the ways of Gingrich, Livingston, Rostenkowski,nL Wilbur Mills, etc.?  Or a board of directors (Congress again) with conflictsJ of interest that screamed and who routinely interfered in the operation ofG the organization based on bribes from special interests? Or a board whooC defined for themselves what constituted a bribe versus some kind oflF legitimate fee for speaking, consulting or whatever? Or with the greatK majority of shareholders whose primary source of knowledge of the company'sp  performance came from TV "news"?  J The employees are just that. From what I see of the attention given by theE share holders, the share holders get a hell of a lot better than they(J deserve. The employees serve at the pleasure and direction of those up theF line. Organizations thrive when things are done right and shrivel whenI they're not, but this depends greatly on the level of competition and thenE environment. The rot can become pretty bad before the structure leansaJ noticeably. Usually when things get bad enough, the share holders come outI of their coma and pay attention. The board and CEO are voted out. The new K "leaders" may be more or less capable than their predecessors, but at leastaL they have to pretend, for a while, to give a damn. Sometimes there's time toL right the ship and sometimes there isn't. Nothing to get excited about; it's just the way it is IMO.    Larry    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.432 ************************