1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 21 Aug 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 463       Contents:6 Re: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."6 Re: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."2 "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."* Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity?* Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity?* RE: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity?. Re: Attunity Connect On Platform for VMS/Alpha5 Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) < Conference: CETS-2001 Initial Itanum Sessions - more to come< Conference: CETS-2001 Initial Itanum Sessions - more to come7 Conference: CETS-2001 Personal Scheduler - ACT QUICKLY! ( Conference: CETS-2001 Volunteers Wanted! corrected version  Re: corrected version  Re: corrected version  Re: DEC-C float & double F5 key (Break) FREE Job Posting!  Re: HELP..VMSer in UNIX land Re: I hate Compaq : Re: Is there a Lexical function that shows a process state* Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMS Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: Move to Sun  Re: Move to Sun # Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on # Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on # Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on  Re: Press Release ) Press Release from SyntheSys Technologies ( Re: SCSI configuration with " Y " cables$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64 Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  RE: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  RE: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded & RE: The VMS Opensource Porting Project Re: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on > Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: The Final Knell Has Sounded)( What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use?, Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use? Re: where is 7.3 ? Re: where is 7.3 ? Re: where is 7.3 ? Re: where is 7.3 ? Re: where is 7.3 ?D Re: www.cets2001.com comments (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) Re: XFC - ECO available   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:28:49 -0400 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>? Subject: Re: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." 2 Message-ID: <vpeg7.401$bB1.28242@news.cpqcorp.net>  L The mailing list that this was sent to comes from our own customer database.! How you got on the database list.   * This database contains thousands of names.  1 If you sent me mail asking to be put on this list      you are on the list E If have given me or someone in the Marketing group your business card      you are on the list " If you subscribed to OpenVMS Times     you are on the list I If you are a member of the OpenVMS Executive forum         you are on the  list. K If have attended a recent OpenVMS event we are trying     to put you on the  list.    sue   5 "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net> wrote in message 1 news:Iyag7.11745$4b5.308650@news6.giganews.com... 8 > Well... this was an interesting surprise :-).  I don't- > usually get VMS related "stuff" from Compaq  > sent to me directly....  > 0 > Who in VMS Engineering is the Mark Twain fan ? >  > -Andy- >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:34:40 -0400 * From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>? Subject: Re: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." 7 Message-ID: <sofg7.12155$4b5.321908@news6.giganews.com>   5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message # news:3B813FE5.4DB21DA2@127.0.0.1...   = > The quotes are cute but they _must_ go to the right people.   : And the right/correct person for this particular message ?= ISV's or end users ? From the packaging it's hard to tell.... ; whose attention are you going to get with a 10" x 10"x 3/8" 6 box that's white on one side and "Compaq red" with the7 Twain quote on the other ? Other than the Post Office ?    I liked it :-).   F > I'm repeating myself as I said that before. What mailing list do youB > think was bought that meant you got this? That analysis would be > interesting...  J Can't really help there.... while I'm on the following (at a bare minimum)6 Compaq mailing/advertising lists [that I'm aware of] :  >     - Compaq Partner Network ("We" resell Alphaservers to edu. organizations)L     - Compaq Solutions Alliance ("We" sell our own software to go with those Alphas) L     - Compaq ASE Program (Or whatever it's now called) (Enough CD's to cover a wall) E     - Encompass/DECUS (I'm on at least 2 different mailing lists from 
 Encompass)?     - I put my name in for "stuff" @ the OpenVMS Times web page E         at: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvmstimes/subscribe.html H         though I'd never received anything from it before now that I can tell. H     [All my VMS marketing trinkets (A mug, some pens, posters, etc) have come@      my way because of a conference of some sort somewhere.....]  J     And I'm sure I've missed a few...... I've never had a reason/desire toH     check to see what material REALLY comes from where... though the ASEF     stuff almost always says Compaq ASE with a Texas address somewhereK     on it and the material that showed up today DOES say "OpenVMS Group/110      Spitbrook Road," etc...   G As I said... this probably doesn't help if you are trying to figure out H what/whom that mailing was targeted at.... 1/2 of them are not typically end-user/CIO oriented...  5 (Note: I wrote the above BEFORE I saw Sue Skonetski's  <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> )J   note about where this material came from though I don't see an answer to my question +   about who the Mark Twain fan is :-).....)   
     -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:04:17 -0400 * From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>; Subject: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." 7 Message-ID: <Iyag7.11745$4b5.308650@news6.giganews.com>   6 Well... this was an interesting surprise :-).  I don't+ usually get VMS related "stuff" from Compaq  sent to me directly....   . Who in VMS Engineering is the Mark Twain fan ?   -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:37:45 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 3 Subject: Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity? 2 Message-ID: <Bo8g7.338$bB1.27527@news.cpqcorp.net>    Pye, Graham wrote in message ... ><<< -----Original Message----- ? ><<< From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]  ><<<I ><<< Malcolm Dunnett wrote in message <6q5YePz5YOnn@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>... ; ><<< >   And, not to be too repetetive but, what about FMS?  ><<<H ><<< FMS is on the list of things being ported.  AFAIK, FMS has a native >Alpha
 ><<< version.  > H >Fred's right, it's native on Alpha and VAX. Now, where's that IPF BLISS
 >compiler....  >     J It'll probably be one of the first VMS cross-compilers out of the chute.../ but the critical item is getting the linker ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:41:32 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 3 Subject: Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity? 2 Message-ID: <8s8g7.340$bB1.27437@news.cpqcorp.net>  $ Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...  H >2) Sorry Graham, but the Bliss product was retired on VAX and was never >   available on Alpha...  >     H Bliss is available on the Freeware CD.  Bliss is critical to VMS.  BlissG will be available on IPF.  IMHO, given we put it on the freeware CD for G Alpha, I would expect that the IPF version may well show up that way as  well.    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 08:35:50 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 3 Subject: RE: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity? 3 Message-ID: <uCdtl8xTz+hX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ~ In article <F5949552111A66489D2D578D92B3697201743793@reoexc04.emea.cpqcorp.net>, "Pye, Graham" <Graham.Pye@compaq.com> writes:  > <<< -----Original Message-----@ > <<< From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com] > <<< J > <<< Malcolm Dunnett wrote in message <6q5YePz5YOnn@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>...< > <<< >   And, not to be too repetetive but, what about FMS? > <<< I > <<< FMS is on the list of things being ported.  AFAIK, FMS has a native  > Alpha  > <<< version. > I > Fred's right, it's native on Alpha and VAX. Now, where's that IPF BLISS  > compiler....  G 1) From context, I would gather that "IPF" is some British acronym used     in place of a swear-word :-)   G 2) Sorry Graham, but the Bliss product was retired on VAX and was never     available on Alpha...  R > From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>, Compaq Computer Corporati( > Date: 20 Aug 2001 07:37:59 -0500       >   K > I'm sure it will be.  The goal here is to port everything.  There will be M > exceptions, for example if it was already being retired on VAX _and_ Alpha.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:15:46 GMT - From: "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> 7 Subject: Re: Attunity Connect On Platform for VMS/Alpha + Message-ID: <SKhg7.47769$K6.18311156@news2>   F The piece we bought let's my PC's (and my MS-SQL server) access my VMSJ Codasyl (formerly DEC-DBMS) database.  Also it allows my VMS box to access my MS-SQL server.    Dave  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:ebW2fVskrWE9@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...: > In article <rpeqnts16ftqn5j0lspu3o7ssam001nfkt@4ax.com>,, >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > E > > On 17 Aug 2001 08:04:29 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm  > > Dunnett) wrote:  > > < > >>In article <oe8qnto0n443gpt5568s8tmdd9i0g4mnd9@4ax.com>,/ > >>    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  > >> > > G > >>     Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't that available natively H > >>in Oracle through SQL*Net anyway? So for free you get the ability to- > >>do something you could already do anyway?  > >>G > >>     Or is the idea that the included software is a free demo which E > >>admittedly doesn't do anything particularly valuable but lets you B > >>try the product to see if it's worth buying the other modules? > > # > > I think that's its purpose yes.  > >  > ( >    Aah, the old "bait and switch". :-) >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:09:47 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> > Subject: Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)2 Message-ID: <n_7g7.331$bB1.27305@news.cpqcorp.net>  B I am responsible for making the recommendations related to console? interfaces (minus Alpha PAL, which someone else is working on).   J The IPF console firmware - EFI/SAL/PAL - is much closer to an SRM console,H than to a PC BIOS.  In fact, I went back and looked at a report I helpedI write a half-decade ago on what an "ideal" console for *Alpha* would look J like (this was back when we were trying to resolve the need for both an NTI console and a VMS/UNIX console) and it meets all the criteria that we had 	 laid out.   L We do not plan to implement a VMS-only console.  We will use the EFI consoleG as-is, unless we find additional functional requirements that we cannot K avoid.  An example of such a thing, would be IF we decided that MOP booting F was a requirement, we would then need to examine adding a MOP protocol; handler to the console - which is not a fundamental change.    _Fred    Patrick Young wrote in message4 <55f85d77.0108180449.3f7f8f93@posting.google.com>...> >hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in messageG >>   port to IPF are Compaq ProLiant DL590 systems.  I expect to see no J >>   hardware modifications specifically required of these systems for the > , >The interesting word here being "hardware". > > >Just curious - might there be an SRM like BIOS flash for such= >systems?  In a *lot* of ways it would be a _very_ nice idea. B >I am _NO_ fan of the current PC BIOS idiom and it's n+1 variants.= >This may restrict the running of OpenVMS on non Q systems to @ >specific chipsets, not that this is a specific problem. Digital? >for as long as I can remember quite rightly reserved the right > >to state their software may not run on equipment they did not >supply.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:00:32 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>E Subject: Conference: CETS-2001 Initial Itanum Sessions - more to come 9 Message-ID: <k7dg7.3699$uC2.1412462@typhoon1.gnilink.net>   / http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/Itanium.txt    or  / http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/Itanium.pdf    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:00:58 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>E Subject: Conference: CETS-2001 Initial Itanum Sessions - more to come 9 Message-ID: <K7dg7.3702$uC2.1412553@typhoon1.gnilink.net>   / http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/Itanium.txt    or  / http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/Itanium.pdf    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:41:28 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>@ Subject: Conference: CETS-2001 Personal Scheduler - ACT QUICKLY!9 Message-ID: <Yz7g7.2991$uC2.1231565@typhoon1.gnilink.net>   H The Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 portal's on-line personalI scheduler will be available next Monday, August 20th beginning at 2:00 PM I CDST for all register Symposium attendees . A shopping cart paradigm will E let you select available conference activities, resolve conflicts and J schedule them into your daily event planner. Please note that you must useK the personal scheduler to reserve a seat in any hands-on workshops you wish C to attend. You can reserve up to two workshops and attend others on 	 stand-by.   J On Monday you will be able to access the personal scheduler by clicking onH the "Build My Schedule" link, which will be located on the portal's home- page, under the "Symposium Program" category.   I NOTE: The workshops fill up quickly so act immediately when the scheduler C becomes available to insure you can reserve the workshops you want!   K NOTE: Only recent V4 or higher browsers have been tested and are supported.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:26:19 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>1 Subject: Conference: CETS-2001 Volunteers Wanted! 9 Message-ID: <Ll7g7.2947$uC2.1219357@typhoon1.gnilink.net>   E Volunteers are wanted to help with the Encompass Interactive Workshop # Project at CETS2001 in Anaheim, CA.   K Have you ever wondered what it would be like to work behind the scenes at a L big technical symposium? Would you like the opportunity to work side-by-sideG with other computer professionals from around the world, setting up and L configuring systems for one of Encompass' volunteer projects? Would you likeI to learn new computer configuration and deployment techniques in a casual L on-the-job-training environment? Would you like to meet some other symposium4 attendees, make some new friends, and have some fun?  L The Encompass Interactive Workshop rooms are planned, set up, and configuredJ volunteers like you -- computer professionals who like the challenge of anK interesting project. One of the advantages of this volunteer opportunity ismE that we have something to do for attendees of all levels of technical H expertise. We're not just trying to get set up for some great workshops,I we're also counting on the setup and configuration to serve as a learningoK experience for interested symposium attendees. (If the workshops themselvesf4 were our only concern, we'd contract out the setup.)  K Working the project is a great way to learn new skills, teach others how tosA do what you know best, and to meet other symposium attendees. TheaJ behind-the-scenes work on this project at past symposia has provided greatK peer-to-peer networking, and has even forged lasting friendships among sometH attendees as we've put our heads and talents together to produce a great final product.  J At CETS2001, we're looking to set up two Interactive Workshop rooms -- oneI with Intel-based PCs for Windows sessions, and one with Alphastations forOI OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX sessions. We have four opportunities for you to be J involved in the Encompass Interactive Workshops project (besides attending7 one of the great workshops we have planned, of course):   I 1) Initial setup/configuration of workshop rooms and equipment (Fri, Sat,eD Sun) - We'll be doing the initial setup and configuration on Friday,K Saturday, and possibly Sunday, before the symposium portion of the CETS20014H event begins. This will involve everything from arranging the tables andB chairs in the room, to unpacking equipment, setting up servers andL workstations, and the creation/cloning of several system configurations thatJ will be used for workshops throughout the week. Note that some of the workI is not glamorous, nor technical -- you're invited to dress very casually,aL let your hair down, and definitely, to have a good time while helping out onK this project. Attendees at all levels of technical expertise are invited to K come in and help. You must, however, be a paid symposium attendee _and_ youlD must sign up ahead of time (by August 31). The Encompass InteractiveF Workshop rooms will be restricted to a pre-arranged access list on the weekend.  F 2) Daily system reconfiguration and room setup for the following day'sJ workshops (Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu) - Volunteers are needed to come in and helpI with reconfiguration of the systems after the last workshop of the day onaK Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. All levels of technical expertise J are welcome. Sign up ahead or stop by workshop rooms 208A & 208B after the last workshop of the day.   L 3) Workshop tech support (Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri) - Workshop assistants areI needed for each of the sessions to walk around and help attendees keep up K with the speaker during the hands-on portion of the workshop. For this job,eF volunteers do need to be very knowledgeable in the area covered by theL particular workshop content. Visit the online event scheduling tool and takeK a look at the sessions scheduled in workshop rooms 208A & 208B. (Be sure to?J also look at the technical level of the workshop to make sure you can helpA at the level covered by the workshop). Sign up early to help out.h  J 4) Workshop room break-down (Fri) - Always liked to take things apart as aI kid? This may be a good stress-relief exercise for you at the end of your1L busy symposium week. Starting at 10am on Friday, it's time to knock-down theF workshop rooms (one at a time) and pack everything back up. Obviously,K little technical expertise is required and you don't need to sign up ahead,c5 just stop by room 208A 10am on Friday to lend a hand.e  E If you are a registered CETS2001 symposium attendee and would like tosI volunteer to help with any aspect of the Encompass Interactive Workshops,vJ contact project team member Rebecca Fiedler (becky@msfiedler.com), also anJ Encompass volunteer, by August 31 or visit the workshops area early in theE Symposium. The workshops team is looking forward to working with you!   L (Please note that an exposition-only registration does not provide access to  the Interactive Workshops area.)  
 Thank you!   --
 Bryan Webb Project Lead Encompass Interactive Workshops@   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:30:35 -0400d2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: corrected version2 Message-ID: <Uydg7.393$bB1.28018@news.cpqcorp.net>  2 corrected version the previous this includes dates   suee       NEWS.NEWS!!!  . BEA WebLogic Server V. 6.0 on OpenVMS is here.    < Author: Yvonne Whyte, e-Business Solutions Marketing Manager  B You can now confidently purchase e-business solutions on OpenVMS!!  I BEA Systems, Inc. is one of the world's leading e-business infrastructure2D software companies with more than 10,000 customers worldwide and theH preferred application server vendor for the OpenVMS e-business solution.  H BEA 's WebLogic Server V. 6.0 for OpenVMS will ship end August 2001. YouD will be able to view a demo of the product at the BEA booth (PartnerJ Pavilion) at CETS, Anaheim, California, September 9-14 and/or down load it= from <http://commerce.bea.com/downloads/weblogic_server.jsp>.a   We encourage you to try it!!   New functionality:  H WebLogic Server (WLS) V.6.0 is a high-end Java-based application server,5 compliant with Sun's JAVA2 Enterprise Edition (J2EE).o  $ Some of the added functionality are:  ,  a completely new management infrastructure  7  clustered messaging with JAVA Messaging Service (JMS)     XML services  J  Major web server enhancements, including native code extensions for file serving     Support for virtual hostinge    Integrated user management  "  Full support for HTTP V.1.1, and  J  integration with web load balancing solutions, thus eliminating the needJ for separate web servers like Netscape. WebLogic Server can simultaneously# act as a web server and app server.c   e-Business Solution on OpenVMS  ? BEA WebLogic Server provides a proven foundation for e-businesslH applications, offering the presentation, business and information-access( logic, security and management services.  I If you are looking for an all-OpenVMS solution we recommend: BEA WebLogicaI Server V.6.0 with Oracle 9iRAC as the back-end database. Please note thate* Oracle 9iRAC be available on OpenVMS 3Q01.   Additional information?s  / Additional product information is available at:   9 <http://bea.com/products/weblogic/server/datasheet.shtml>o  9 Please direct any questions: openvms.ebusiness@compaq.comu% <mailto:openvms.ebusiness@compaq.com>h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:02:26 -0400o( From: Jonas Lindholm <jlindholm@rcn.com> Subject: Re: corrected version' Message-ID: <3B819701.D3045C34@rcn.com>w  M Sue, there is no WebLogic Server V6.0 for OpenVMS. The only version is 5.1.0.u  K If there is a version 6.0, please then provide an accurate link so we could- find it and try it, or! is this another lie from Compaq ?d   /Jonas Lindholmn   Sue Skonetski wrote:  4 > corrected version the previous this includes dates >- > suea >1 > NEWS.NEWS!!! >s0 > BEA WebLogic Server V. 6.0 on OpenVMS is here. >u> > Author: Yvonne Whyte, e-Business Solutions Marketing Manager > D > You can now confidently purchase e-business solutions on OpenVMS!! >?K > BEA Systems, Inc. is one of the world's leading e-business infrastructure4F > software companies with more than 10,000 customers worldwide and theJ > preferred application server vendor for the OpenVMS e-business solution. >7J > BEA 's WebLogic Server V. 6.0 for OpenVMS will ship end August 2001. YouF > will be able to view a demo of the product at the BEA booth (PartnerL > Pavilion) at CETS, Anaheim, California, September 9-14 and/or down load it? > from <http://commerce.bea.com/downloads/weblogic_server.jsp>.t >S > We encourage you to try it!! >f > New functionality: >AJ > WebLogic Server (WLS) V.6.0 is a high-end Java-based application server,7 > compliant with Sun's JAVA2 Enterprise Edition (J2EE).. > & > Some of the added functionality are: >t. >  a completely new management infrastructure >r9 >  clustered messaging with JAVA Messaging Service (JMS)- >- >  XML services >,L >  Major web server enhancements, including native code extensions for file	 > servingj >: >  Support for virtual hostingp >b >  Integrated user management >2$ >  Full support for HTTP V.1.1, and > L >  integration with web load balancing solutions, thus eliminating the needL > for separate web servers like Netscape. WebLogic Server can simultaneously% > act as a web server and app server.V >   > e-Business Solution on OpenVMS >HA > BEA WebLogic Server provides a proven foundation for e-businesshJ > applications, offering the presentation, business and information-access* > logic, security and management services. >5K > If you are looking for an all-OpenVMS solution we recommend: BEA WebLogicAK > Server V.6.0 with Oracle 9iRAC as the back-end database. Please note thatm, > Oracle 9iRAC be available on OpenVMS 3Q01. >D > Additional information?0 >m1 > Additional product information is available at:o >w; > <http://bea.com/products/weblogic/server/datasheet.shtml>e >o; > Please direct any questions: openvms.ebusiness@compaq.coml' > <mailto:openvms.ebusiness@compaq.com>m   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:38:10 GMTb2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: corrected version2 Message-ID: <Cbhg7.407$bB1.28391@news.cpqcorp.net>  % :or is this another lie from Compaq ?e  J   Please take a look again sometime around the end of August, or during orK   after the CETS2001 event -- various of the new products and new releases rL   of products for OpenVMS tend to be officially announced during that event    and/or during that timeframe.l  N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:51:24 +0200d& From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>! Subject: Re: DEC-C float & doublea$ Message-ID: <3B81BE9C.237C@c-lab.de>   Jesper Naur wrote: > : > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3B7FF074.7C4CA77E@videotron.ca... > >8N > > Now, how does the compiler know it should convert a float to a double in aG > > routine such as printf with undefined arguments ? Does "printf" getx	 > special E > > treatment because it is so closely associated with the language ?c > >rH > > Or doers the compiler automatically convert any float to double when	 > passing0- > > to a routine whose argument are unknown ?a > E > I've done a couple of more tests, and it does seem, that floats aresN > converted to doubles, whenever the called routine arguments are unknown. TryI > to compile the testprogram below with cc/lis/mac, and you'll see what It > mean.  >   F Of course, because the compiler HAS to do it this way. Those who stillF know K&R C do probably remember that, because the parameter types wereH unknown to the callig function (no prototypes yet), 'data type widening'E was used for argument passing very similar as in conversion for mixedd type arithmetic expressionsp   float was converted to double # char and short was converted to intw. unsigned <ditto> was converted to unsigned int1 long long is very likely retained as long long...      > #include <stdio.h> > & > void test( float sky, double water ) > {o >    printf(" sky=%f ", sky );" >    printf(" water=%f ", water ); > }z >d  D When we had to support K&R compilers for applications while using anF ANSI compiler for libraries, this was exactly one situation that was aG no-no. In this case the ANSI compiler WILL generate code for just usinghH a 32bit float from the stack or registers, while the calling function inH K&R will put a double. When passing values on the stack (VAX), this willB wreck even more havoc for trailing arguments, as the frame pointer offsets are now wrong.  B A hard to find bug, because the two compilers were told to believe different things.e   -- o* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:58:04 +1200p& From: A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj> Subject: F5 key (Break) 2 Message-ID: <01C12A51.AEB1F3E0@PATRICK.FSC.COM.FJ>  ` We disable F5 key by Pressing F3 (Setup) on VT# Terminal.  Is there any other way to disable it? We're using Gembase on VMS   Thanks   AB   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:20:46 -0400n= From: "jenn@jobboardinfo.zzn.com" <jenn@jobboardinfo.zzn.com>s Subject: FREE Job Posting!7 Message-ID: <63342001822112046412@jobboardinfo.zzn.com>e  ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 , Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"              ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8I+ Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"d+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printabled   <html> <head>  <title>Untitled Document</title>K <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859=a -1"> </head>e   <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">K <a href=3D"http://www=2Emyaffiliateprogram=2Ecom/u/cjb/b=2Easp?id=3D1173">=nM  <img src=3D"http://www=2Emyaffiliateprogram=2Ecom/u/cjb/showban=2Easp?id=3D= M 1173&amp;img=3Dbanner1=2Egif" border=3D0 width=3D"275" height=3D"60"></a>=20=u  K <p><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2">If you thought y=D our current=20E   Job Board filled all your recruiting needs think again! </font></p>/K <p><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2">Click on the ban=- ner above=20K   to plug into <font color=3D"#0000FF"><b><a href=3D"http://www=2Emyaffili=eK ateprogram=2Ecom/u/cjb/b=2Easp?id=3D1173" target=3D"_blank">CollegeJobBoar=  d=2Ecom</a></b></font>;=20K   "the world's best recruiting website"=2E Now managing your recruiting ef=c forts=20K   has never been easier! It's less expensive than the current job board yo=- u are=20K   using, it is nationwide and it provides tons of free services! Employers=I , job=20K   seekers and schools can sign up with CollegeJobBoard for <font color=3D"=D  #0000FF"><b>FREE!!</b></font>=20K   They can use all of the CollegeJobBoard features to manage their entire =l
 recruiting=20cK   process for <font color=3D"#0000FF"><b>FREE!!</b></font> Even our applic=T ant tracking=20 K   and scheduling system, <font color=3D"#0000FF"><b>CollegeJobBoard Schedu=e leonline</b></font>,=20eL   that has screening, tracking and reporting capabilities is <font color=3D=! "#0000FF"><b>FREE!!</b></font>=20hK   We only charge employers to post jobs and to search resumes=2E </font></=c p>K <p align=3D"center"><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"3"= # ><b><font color=3D"#0000FF">FREE=20c;   JOB POSTINGS UNTIL AUGUST 31, 2001!</font></b></font></p>iK <p><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2">We at CollegeJob=o Board would=20K   also like to thank you=2E We are thrilled to announce that over the past=v	  month=20iK   our affiliates, sales people, schools and career services professionals =h have=20rK   shown over 500,000 visitors to CollegeJobBoard=2Ecom=2E This is an aweso=a me accomplishment=2E=206K   To celebrate, for the next two weeks, we are offering you the opportunit=0 y to=20eL   post as many jobs as you wish on CollegeJobBoard=2Ecom for <font color=3D=  "#0000FF"><b>FREE!</b></font>=20K   For employers to take advantage of this <font color=3D"#0000FF"><b>FREE<=a
 /b></font>=20dD   job-posting period all you have to do is the following:</font></p>K <p><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D"2"> 1=2E Sign on to=r  CollegeJobBoard=2Ecom<br>1   2=2E Go through the job posting process=2E <br>tK   3=2E Then at the end where it asks for "Payment Method" choose "Free Job=m  Posting"=2E=20o   <br>K   That's it=2E Then your jobs will be posted for free=2E Employers can pos=l t as many=20K   jobs as they wish for <b><font color=3D"#0000FF">FREE</font></b> until A=h ugust=20   31, 2001=2E </font></p>s
 <p>&nbsp;</p>e
 <p>&nbsp;</p>gK <p align=3D"center"><i><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-=  serif">This=20K   site is best-viewed using <font color=3D"#0000FF">Internet Explorer</fon=e	 t> and=20tK   <font color=3D"#0000FF">Netscape Navigator 6=2E1</font> and later, all o=i
 ptions may=20pK   not be available when using earlier versions of Netscape Navigator=2E</f=n ont></b></i></p>K <p align=3D"center"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=s ><i> If you=20K   have received this mailing in error, or do not wish to receive any furth=t er mailings=20K   pertaining to this topic please Reply to this message and put <b>REMOVE<=o /b>=20K   in the subject line=2E We respect all removal requests=2E</i></font></p>=v   </body>  </html>e  + ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:09:40 -0400o  From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil% Subject: Re: HELP..VMSer in UNIX landt0 Message-ID: <01082014094019@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  > ohm62@hotmail.com (OHM) wrote on 20 Aug 2001 10:59:44 -0700 in2 <9d337b47.0108200959.3f8e6179@posting.google.com>:  F > Maybe one more out of topic post here, since it is UNIX (re)learning= > time for the few VMS programmers left, after that brilliantnF > announcement of a move to IPF (implement new functionalities in thatH > project and try to attract new customers?  Nah!  Let's port again that > legacy stuff...) >  > How about: > ? >   # cat infile | xargs printf "PREFIX %s SUFFIX\n"  > outfilei  = On Solaris xargs treats the input stream as words, not lines.h. Try the above with a sample shell script file.  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919s; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919g5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:01:06 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: I hate Compaq8 Message-ID: <jsh1ot8l2dgkqn6281qae7br79nnbdp5ig@4ax.com>  E On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:07:08 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y wrote:     >eH >Of course, the lack of escape clauses in the Heil/Lipcon letter was not@ >stupid but calculated:  any hint of them would have diluted itsG >effectiveness.  My guess is that Pfeiffer was close to 100% behind itsVH >contents and hence had no problem going out on that limb, but obviously >later management was not.  D If I recall correctly that letter went out in response to the murderD of Alpha/NT and the feeling that Compaq were preparing to drop AlphaC after EV7. Compaq responded by telling customers straight that they E were totally committed to Alpha and there wasn't the slightest chanced of them dropping the processor.   B As it turns out they just lied directly and with no hint of shame.B However some fantasists in this newsgroup continue to believe thatF Compaq are just doing their best while buffeted by factors beyond ther3 control. Load of shite as we might say in Scotland.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:38:06 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>sC Subject: Re: Is there a Lexical function that shows a process statey( Message-ID: <3B8104AC.4D5241BF@ohio.edu>   > Bill Ames wrote: > > P > > That may work. I will have to work on it. What I want is to have a procedureL > > run in batch every 15 minutes that would email me when a process is in aO > > RWMBX.  I would have some info sent at the same time.  I'm not that good atiO > > DCL but I have created similar processes that checks on disk space and diskd > > errors every 15 minutes.  L If you have one batch job per system boot, with internal loops and 15-minute6 waits, you will potentially get a very large log file.  P If you have one batch job every 15 minutes, each job re-submitting the next one,O then you will litter your default directory with lots of small log files.  EveneP if you set a version_limit on the log files or the whole directory, it will takeN less than a year to reach the maximum permitted numerical value of the versionQ number, so you will need to have a housekeeping job that runs at some interval --bF perhaps monthly -- to purge to one version and rename that to *.log;1.  #                                 RDP:   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:39:02 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)3 Subject: Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMSo= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0108201339.36b2381d@posting.google.com>a  C Ok, another question on this card.  We just received the first DS10cE with this Symbios card instead of a KZPBA single ended.  It came withoC the stock Symbios booklet, and the console just refers to it by the E chip number, not a DEC or Compaq name.  VMS (V7.3) on bootup gives an * Intraserver copyright notice for that bus.  A Is this a stock Symbios card or does it have tweaked firmware alacA Intraserver cards that cost so much more for the VMS version.  In:E other words can I buy a generic version of this card and have it workrE and boot on (f.ex) an Alphastation 200 or a PWS-600au?  Hobbyist use, B but if needed I can put V7.3 up on one of them (the other needs to retain display postscript :)   Rich Jordane   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:40:27 GMTt From: dragon <dragon@vt82.nuts>n( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3B8175DC.1ED710B3@vt82.nuts>t   From:l*  http://www.networknews.co.uk/News/1124066  ! Compaq releases Alpha's swan songt By James Middleton [18-07-2001]a  I Compaq is calling on its customers to invest in technology which it plansw to bury in two years' time.   J The company has just launched a 1Ghz version of the Alpha chip accompaniedI by enhancements to the Tru64 Unix OS, despite an earlier decision to halt F Alpha development by 2002. But in the same breath it announced that itB will expand Alpha's replacement - the ProLiant DL590/64 ? which is Compaq's first Itanium box.C  > The new 1Ghz EV68 Alpha chip is available for its GS series ofD AlphaServers in eight-, 16- and 32-way flavours on a platter of 0.18I micron copper. The chips also boast improved workload management and morer processor support.  J The Alpha processor was considered a ground breaker in its eight-year life@ span, but pricey development costs, lack of software support andG unsuccessful marketing have stunted interest in the platform. There are>? currently only 800,000 of the doomed boxed left in circulation.r  H Compaq made the abrupt decision at the end of May to stop development ofC the Alpha architecture within two years and shift its 64-bit systemcI development to Itanium - a move the company said would give its customersC" an industry standard architecture.  D Meanwhile, IBM is attempting to poach Compaq's Alpha disenfranchisedE customers by offering a free migration assessment programme and otherp incentives..     Alan Greig wrote:W  D > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:18:08 GMT, "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@tru64.org> > wrote: >e# > >What's the url for that article?  > >  > >Ken >cH > Network News is a print publication and most print stories are delayedH > prior to appearing online. Their web site is www.networknews.co.uk butH > I can't yet find the article with a search. It's on page three of this > weeks' print edition.  >n > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:02:33 GMT  From: dragon <dragon@vt82.nuts>t( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3B817B0B.4283373C@vt82.nuts>c  2 This is the roadmap before the Intel announcement:.   http://www.theinquirer.net/alpha_vicious.ppt   From: "  http://213.219.40.69/15040102.htm   Alpha chip good until 2025, Roadmap What price x86 then? 1 or much less& By Mike Magee, 15 April 2001 08.05 BST  E AND IT IS WITH SOME CONSIDERABLE PLEASURE we turn to a microprocessore. which is not x86 compatible, the Mighty Alpha.  H Executives at Compaq are now showing a new series of roadmaps which show0 Alpha has a future until 2025 - far beyond EV12.  C By then, many of us, if we're still around, will have that grizzledaC weatherbeaten look unless the elixir of life is marketable by then.o  G In the more immediate term, Compaq is coupling its Alpha chip design toa its system design.  E Just in case people think the Alpha is some kind of irrelevance - thepJ words of Senior Intel VP Paul Otellini to us are worth repeating. He neverF takes any competitor for granted - and the Alpha has some features his server platforms don't.      Alan Greig wrote:   H > According to a report in this week's "Network News" Richard George, UKE > Alpha Manager, said: "We're currently on the EV5 family and will berG > developing EV6 and EV7 for Alpha customers. We envisage that the last G > Alpha processors will ship in 2008, while support will continue untiln > 2012". >fE > Having met Richard George I can only hope this is a misquote ratherv) > than an intentional attempt to mislead.n >u= > Article "Alpha buy puts Intel in prime position" written byn > david_ludlow@vnu.co.uk > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:05:14 -0400o- From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>t( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print# Message-ID: <sb814369.015@aaas.org>n  F Well, some features his server platforms didn't have at any rate. At = least, not until recently. <G>  7 >>> dragon <dragon@vt82.nuts> 08/20/2001 5:02:33 PM >>> E Just in case people think the Alpha is some kind of irrelevance - theeJ words of Senior Intel VP Paul Otellini to us are worth repeating. He neverF takes any competitor for granted - and the Alpha has some features his server platforms don't.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:40:22 GMT-+ From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@home.com>r( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print= Message-ID: <Gdhg7.74687$hO5.15093855@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>b  , "dragon" <dragon@vt82.nuts> wrote in message# news:3B8175DC.1ED710B3@vt82.nuts...s > From:e, >  http://www.networknews.co.uk/News/1124066 >o# > Compaq releases Alpha's swan songl! > By James Middleton [18-07-2001]  > K > Compaq is calling on its customers to invest in technology which it plansa > to bury in two years' time.  >cL > The company has just launched a 1Ghz version of the Alpha chip accompaniedK > by enhancements to the Tru64 Unix OS, despite an earlier decision to haltaH > Alpha development by 2002. But in the same breath it announced that itD > will expand Alpha's replacement - the ProLiant DL590/64 ? which is > Compaq's first Itanium box.T > @ > The new 1Ghz EV68 Alpha chip is available for its GS series ofF > AlphaServers in eight-, 16- and 32-way flavours on a platter of 0.18K > micron copper. The chips also boast improved workload management and morea > processor support. >wL > The Alpha processor was considered a ground breaker in its eight-year lifeB > span, but pricey development costs, lack of software support andI > unsuccessful marketing have stunted interest in the platform. There aresA > currently only 800,000 of the doomed boxed left in circulation.  >gL Pricey Development costs? HUH? It cost just a bit more than an Intel cost toL develop. After all, the lawsuit that was settled by Intel and DIGITAL provedI that DIGITAL never was competing with Intel, it was competing with itselfcK and it's copied technology that Intel had incorporated into the Intel. Now,a? manufacturing costs, yes, those were higher than that of Intel.cJ Lack of Software support? HUH? OpenVMS, Windows NT, Tru64 UNIX, LINUX, andL all the applications and layered products that go along with them. Give me aH break, who is this James Middleton joker. Tell me, does OpenVMS or Tru64B UNIX run on Intel? Can you do real clustering on Intel, in a mixedK architecture yet, ie; with VAX computers. Can you share storage and backup?  Sheesh.iJ Unsuccessful marketing? Maybe? I don't buy into this, although many DigitsE will. I figure we sold them the wrong way. We also signed some prettyeJ dickhead stupid deals with our enemies such as Microsoft and Intel just to keep them happy.H We should have been like Apple and dropped all the other Intel stuff andK just competed head on with OpenVMS and X-Windows. That's what all the Linuxb weenies want anyhow.L Currently only 800,000 of the doomed box left in circulation? HUH? How couldE anyone know how many are in use and where. Every day there are peopleaK wanting to run Windows NT on Alpha in this newsgroup. On top of that, there@I are oodles and oodles of DECstations and VAX out there still hummin away.2J Nobodies gonna toss a running Alpha with OpenVMS out the door, that's just1 dumb finance, no matter which way you look at it.       J > Compaq made the abrupt decision at the end of May to stop development ofE > the Alpha architecture within two years and shift its 64-bit systemmK > development to Itanium - a move the company said would give its customerse$ > an industry standard architecture. >9F > Meanwhile, IBM is attempting to poach Compaq's Alpha disenfranchisedG > customers by offering a free migration assessment programme and other:
 > incentives.i >p >r > Alan Greig wrote:n >aF > > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:18:08 GMT, "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@tru64.org>
 > > wrote: > >u% > > >What's the url for that article?s > > >i > > >Ken > >fJ > > Network News is a print publication and most print stories are delayedJ > > prior to appearing online. Their web site is www.networknews.co.uk butJ > > I can't yet find the article with a search. It's on page three of this > > weeks' print edition.: > >= > > -- > > Alan >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:10:02 +0100o0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Move to Sun* Message-ID: <3B810C2A.8AAE62B1@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =n   > cjt & trefoil wrote: > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > > cjt & trefoil wrote: > > > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > > > <snip> The > > > > > statementcJ > > > > > above could be referring to the fact that SUN is not selling ha= rdware > > > > > based on Intel chips. # > > > > Are AMD chips close enough?e
 > > > Yes. > > >e. > > > Are SUN selling PC's with AMD chips in ?@ > > What's a "PC?"  Does Compaq sell "PC's" with Alphas in them? > =e  6 > Are SUN selling any hardware boxes with AMD inside ? > =u  < > If not what did you mean by "Are AMD chips close enough" ? > =r    9 Some of the Sun Cobalt applicances have AMD processors inf: as did the SunPCI card that allows you to run NT/WinXXXX =   in a window on a Sun.c   Regardsi Andrew Harrisonn Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:32:05 +0100T0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Move to Sun* Message-ID: <3B811155.4E559D99@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =l   > andrew harrison wrote: > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > > andrew harrison wrote:B > > > > The IBM S390 division, the AS400 and the RS/6000 divisionsB > > > > have no intention of including any IA-64 products in their > > > > product lines. > =a  H > > > But your statement does not make any sense ! Compaq Alpha divisionH > > > are not including IA-64. VMS (and Tru64) will support IA-64. It isF > > > the same for IBM. Their pSeries will not use IA-64. But AIX willJ > > > support IA-64 (I think the beta version of AIX 5 for IA-64 are alre= adya > > > out there).  > > >t > >e@ > > AIX is being ported to IA-64 (Sequent) because IBM wants one> > > common UNIX OS for their two UNIX platforms. This does not? > > mean that they are migrating to IA-64 nor does it mean thatrA > > they will stop positioning the pSeries(RS/6000) as their highe > > performance UNIX platform. > >EA > > This is totally different to Compaq since Compaq are dropping= > > Alpha in favour of IA-64.n > =   # > That is a *BIG* difference - yes.3 > =0  @ > But it has very little to do with the fact that your statement= > "RS/6000 divisions have no intention of including any IA-64n= > products in their product lines" is very misleading indeed.  > =e    5 No it isn't. The pSeries division have no intention =o  6 of including any IA-64 products in their product range5 since all their products are based on PowerX and AIX.2  8 The xSeries Division which makes Intel based boxes and =  8 which incorporates the Netinfinity and Sequent product =  5 ranges obviously does intend to produce IA-64 based =   : systems. The only confusion is that the xSeries division =  # is also adopting AIX for the IA-64.i     > Arne   -- =   Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architectn   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 01 08:18:52 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.com>, Subject: Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on+ Message-ID: <9lqqr8$dch$2@bob.news.rcn.net>-  < In article <howard-83E18E.22135919082001@enews.newsguy.com>,+    Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:H1 >In article <3B805EA2.10CE9655@bellatlantic.net>,1* > bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote: >MB >> Ahh, perfect! I just get back from vacation, going thru my mail= >> and news groups after 10 days away, and I read a perfectlyh; >> salient and succient comment.  Of course it is from BAH!o
 >> GREAT!! >a@ >I think she's annoyed with me for some reason, but I dunno why.  > Sigh!  I was commenting on the comment with no personal intent@ implied.  One of the fatal flaws in analyzing system performance> is comparing speed.  What really counts is the work throughput? of a user.  Period.  From a timesharing system POV, what counts,: is that a user cann't realize there are other users on the% system based on his response times.  e   > ...  Possibly 5 >relates to something in alt.folklore.computers, but 1 >if so she needs to calm down.   Oooooooooommmmmmmmm.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:39:43 +01001% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i, Subject: Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on8 Message-ID: <j7t1ot8n17999crvb7r57lhpc2finom199@4ax.com>  8 On Mon, 20 Aug 01 08:18:52 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:   >y >r? >Sigh!  I was commenting on the comment with no personal intentLA >implied.  One of the fatal flaws in analyzing system performancel? >is comparing speed.  What really counts is the work throughputs@ >of a user.  Period.  From a timesharing system POV, what counts; >is that a user cann't realize there are other users on the.& >system based on his response times.    F And that's something that both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 were pretty good atD given sufficient memory. When I first ran some tests of a 2060 and aE VAX 11/780 side by side I put the 2060 around five times the speed of 7 the 780 at running compiled code. However if you took asB compile/link/debug cycle you were more like ten to one or worse. IF recall a LISP interpreter written in Pascal compiled on the 2060 in 10E seconds (Chuck Hedrick's SPascal) but took around 300 secs to compilehE under DEC Pascal. As Pascal was one of the main teaching languages we A used at the time this caused considerable problems. even with DEC0D compilers on both TOPS-20 and VMS a typical Fortran compilation took1 around 10 times as long as on a 780 as on a 2060.y   >> ...  Possibly A6 >>relates to something in alt.folklore.computers, but  >>if so she needs to calm down.o >t >Oooooooooommmmmmmmm.e >p >/BAHe >  >u( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:45:48 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a, Subject: Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on8 Message-ID: <6212ot0i80hht7eggbg95i6k7jb3opcve3@4ax.com>  2 On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:38:49 -0700, "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:  I >Though it has been quite a few years (1977), my first systems programmer > >job was on a 2020.  It could handle up to 8 COBOL interactiveH >programmers working at the same time but slowed dramatically on the 9thC >programmer.  Our benchmarks on overnight batch processing of COBOL I >financial apps showed it to be slightly faster than our IBM 370/138 (waseF >there a 138 model?  that's the one that sticks in my decaying memory) >running VM. >-G >From my strictly personal observations not founded on any kind of test.H >the 2020 felt faster than a 11/750 at the keyboard using COBOL, FMS and? >DBMS).  DBMS on a VAX was a speed killer, more so than the 20.   C Compilation on VMS typically took a long time in the early days and A you seemed more likely to hit IO/bandwidth/RMS bottlenecks (whichp> could sometimes be 'fixed' by tuning which was nowhere near asA important on TOPS-20). Over the years improvements to VMS and thecE enormous increase in processor power (I consider the 780 to have been F way underpowered from day 1 and telling TOPS-10/20 shops that this wasF the future drove huge numbers away. I still know IT managers who won'tE talk to DEC/Compaq on principle because of this). And now Compaq havec2 just announced the murder of another architecture.   >  Jack Peacocke >n   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:56:11 +0100f0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Press Release* Message-ID: <3B8116FB.94C6C3D0@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: > Z > John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in message news:<3B759575.7CCEDDD3@dplanet.ch>... >  > > Compaq have2I > > also said that customers want an industry-standard but have curiouslyo: > > failed to state what advantage this will bring anyone. > >JI >     Some of them are obvious, maybe they don't want to bore us with the M >     obvious (but they will when marketing mavens get cranking). They shouldt >     include: > : >         1)  Value.  Cheaper than high-end servers today.? >         2)  Shared components.   Racks.  Power Supplies, etc.sB >         3)  Purchasing decisions.  Simple across the board here.4 >         4)  Support.  No specializations required. >    Interesting.  9 The Compaq choir are suggesting that the next generation m7 server platform that supports EV7 will also be able to e support IA-64. o  8 If this is true then your argument is basically hot air.  8 Is it true or have the Compaq choir hit yet another duff	 note ????0   Regards  Andrew Harrisont Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:47:53 -0400h2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>2 Subject: Press Release from SyntheSys Technologies2 Message-ID: <8Pdg7.397$bB1.28084@news.cpqcorp.net>    Just received this.   sueoH SyntheSys Technologies Announces The Worldwide Release Of Their Range Of secured technology products.  7 17 August, 2001; Boca Raton, FL. SyntheSys Technologies G (www.synthesysusa.com  ), a Privately held company based in Boca Raton,n: today released their range of secured technology products.  < Through partnerships with XBS21 Security Business Systems AGL (www.xbs21usa.com), JabCast, Inc. (www.jabcast.com) and IMSure Network, Inc.D (www.imsurenetwork.com) SyntheSys Technologies now provides platformD independent secured technology tools.  These tools include BiometricL Scanners And Smart Cards, Secure Instant Messaging Technology And Secure B2BL / B2C E-Commerce Solutions.  These tools are capable of operating on various6 operating systems including Open VMS, UNIX, NT, AS400.  I SyntheSys Technologies provides a range of biometric scanning devices andtL Smartcards through XBS21 Security Business Systems, AG that can be used as aF standalone, or integrated into a wide range of user identification and authentication applications.  I The biometric fingerprint scanners provide positive identification of theaI individual, and the Smartcard stores the individual's data, including thecL fingerprint information. This information can be stored using up to 2048 bitF encryption, which is in excess of that used by the military currently.@ President of SyntheSys Technologies, Peter Letizia, explains the effectiveness of the system:  K "The personal data stored on the card cannot be unlocked without a positiveiJ fingerprint ID, thus eliminating the opportunity for fraud. All processingJ takes place on the actual card, which means the data cannot be interceptedL or altered. This is an extremely secure method of personal identification we have seen."2  H Through another partnership with New York based JabCast, Inc., SyntheSysH Technologies offers a secure instant messaging server application on theJ Compaq Open VMS Operating System. The JabCast system is interoperable withG other popular Instant Messaging systems such as AIM, ICQ and Yahoo. ThesI incorporated presence management system identifies through which device a I user is accessing the system and routes the information accordingly. ThiseJ provides mobility and the opportunity to integrate with other messaging orF data providers easily. The JabCast system provides message encryption,D server security, and "path hiding" which provide additional securityJ measures for enterprise level users. JabCast CEO Howard Ryan: "JabCast areD committed to the continued development of scalable Instant MessagingI solutions. Our current range of servers address the needs of business andiH personal messaging alike that can be used in small private environments,J scaling up to an enterprise with worldwide offices and mobile workforces."  I SyntheSys Technologies also works with iMSure Network, Inc.. Through this H collaboration, SyntheSys Technologies provides fully secure B2B, B2C andK transactional engine software using the Compaq Open VMS Operating System or C the IBM Websphere Enterprise platform. A National and International=& fulfillment network is also available.  D SyntheSys Technologies will be demonstrating all of the technologiesB mentioned above at the Compaq CETS Show in Anaheim CA, 9th to 14th
 September.  % *************************************e
 Peter Letizian President  &  General Managert SyntheSys Technologies, Inc.! 9045 La Fontana Blvd., Suite B-16- Boca Raton, FL 33434 Tel. (561) 479-4655u Fax (561) 479-1558 Email pletizia@synthesysusa.coms% *************************************u  C Note: Statements which are not historical facts are forward lookingeL statements. The Company, through its management makes forward-looking publicH statements concerning its expected future operations and performance andC other developments. Such forward looking statements are necessarily0C estimates reflecting the Company's best judgment based upon currentyJ information and involve a number of risks and uncertainties, and there canG be no assurance that other factors will not affect the accuracy of such F forward looking statements. It is impossible to identify such factors,H factors which could cause actual results to differ materially from thoseI estimated by the Company include, but are not limited to change in marketII conditions, change in technology, change in management and labor, and anyr other unforeseen change.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:07:39 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)1 Subject: Re: SCSI configuration with " Y " cables L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2008011607470001@user-2ivec9s.dialup.mindspring.com>  K In article <FZag7.21$cN.321@client>, "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com> wrote:n  G > Trying to configure 2 alpha's using scs-y cables ,v.s. scsi-hub. HaveoN > kzpba-cy controllers in the alpha's, yet when make the physical connections,J > 1 system sees all  18 disk devices at the console prompt, the other only$ > sees 12, doesn't see dka201-dka206 > M >     Any ideas would be helpful. I haven't set port alloc yet, b/c I want tos9 > make sure that all devices are seen from console prompte  B You might want to review the manual "Guidelines for OpenVMSClusterC Configurations", which is available on-line.  Specifically, look at  appendix A.l  8 Make sure your controllers don't have the same SCSI IDs.  D I don't know that particular controller.  If you have the controllerH manual, reread it to make sure you didn't miss an important incantation.  E If you unhook the alpha that _does_ see all the disks, does the otherg alpha change its behavior?  F And it's always possible that you have a bad SCSI cable somewhere, butB that generally only happens in conjuction with some other problem.   Just wild guesses...   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:12:34 -0400r' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64i( Message-ID: <9lrju1$i9a$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:eJ7g7.327$bB1.27338@news.cpqcorp.net... >t? > JF Mezei wrote in message <3B7EDD79.CD759673@videotron.ca>...g >pI > >I do not wish to belittle the VMS engineers for whom I still hold muchtH > >respect, but is it reasonable to ask these engineers to start to make suchI > >huge architectural decisions on a chip they know little of and have no  > >experience with ? >u+ > As they say, that's life in the big city.m  + And as a result some people decide to move.r   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:26:57 -0400u5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64c2 Message-ID: <Zvdg7.392$bB1.28071@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrju1$i9a$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >vA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message1- >news:eJ7g7.327$bB1.27338@news.cpqcorp.net...  >>@ >> JF Mezei wrote in message <3B7EDD79.CD759673@videotron.ca>... >>J >> >I do not wish to belittle the VMS engineers for whom I still hold muchI >> >respect, but is it reasonable to ask these engineers to start to makeb >such J >> >huge architectural decisions on a chip they know little of and have no >> >experience with ?  >>, >> As they say, that's life in the big city. >-, >And as a result some people decide to move. >     J Funny.  Nobody here has yet to quit because they think IPF is too hard, orK too unreasonable.  Or did you want to turn every question or statement into 7 your "the customers are fleeing, you should too" cry's.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:37:45 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64a( Message-ID: <9lrotu$mmu$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:Zvdg7.392$bB1.28071@news.cpqcorp.net...< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrju1$i9a$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > > C > >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagea/ > >news:eJ7g7.327$bB1.27338@news.cpqcorp.net...  > >>B > >> JF Mezei wrote in message <3B7EDD79.CD759673@videotron.ca>... > >>L > >> >I do not wish to belittle the VMS engineers for whom I still hold muchK > >> >respect, but is it reasonable to ask these engineers to start to make- > >such L > >> >huge architectural decisions on a chip they know little of and have no > >> >experience with ?: > >>. > >> As they say, that's life in the big city. > > . > >And as a result some people decide to move. > >: >  >rL > Funny.  Nobody here has yet to quit because they think IPF is too hard, orH > too unreasonable.  Or did you want to turn every question or statement into9 > your "the customers are fleeing, you should too" cry's.   J For developers as it is with customers, the decision of whether to stay orD leave is an individual one.  My point was that the kind of arbitraryL high-level decision that put the engineers in the position they're now in isL just another issue for customers to consider when they decide whether CompaqK is the kind of corporation they want to trust their businesses to (and alsocI an issue for developers to consider in their choice of employer, for thatoG matter:  I cannot, for example, conceive of at-all-likely circumstances F under which I'd be interested in working for Compaq, but certainly can/ understand that others might feel differently).a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:42:39 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64o2 Message-ID: <GKdg7.396$bB1.28171@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrotu$mmu$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >e >mK >For developers as it is with customers, the decision of whether to stay ortE >leave is an individual one.  My point was that the kind of arbitrary J >high-level decision that put the engineers in the position they're now in isF >just another issue for customers to consider when they decide whether CompaqL >is the kind of corporation they want to trust their businesses to (and alsoJ >an issue for developers to consider in their choice of employer, for thatH >matter:  I cannot, for example, conceive of at-all-likely circumstancesG >under which I'd be interested in working for Compaq, but certainly can 0 >understand that others might feel differently). >-    I I personally have seen more mail from people interested in jobs in VMS inc1 the last 4 weeks than I have in the last 2 years.,  J The way the big city works is that they pay us the big bucks to be able toK deal with whatever comes our way.  This is exactly what many good engineers . thrive on.  A challenge, and interesting work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:13:10 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64e( Message-ID: <9lrr05$pbd$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:GKdg7.396$bB1.28171@news.cpqcorp.net... >l< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrotu$mmu$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > >s > >wJ > >For developers as it is with customers, the decision of whether to stay orG > >leave is an individual one.  My point was that the kind of arbitrarydL > >high-level decision that put the engineers in the position they're now in > isH > >just another issue for customers to consider when they decide whether > CompaqI > >is the kind of corporation they want to trust their businesses to (and- alsoL > >an issue for developers to consider in their choice of employer, for thatJ > >matter:  I cannot, for example, conceive of at-all-likely circumstancesI > >under which I'd be interested in working for Compaq, but certainly cano2 > >understand that others might feel differently). > >o >n >iK > I personally have seen more mail from people interested in jobs in VMS in 3 > the last 4 weeks than I have in the last 2 years.s > L > The way the big city works is that they pay us the big bucks to be able toC > deal with whatever comes our way.  This is exactly what many good.	 engineersa0 > thrive on.  A challenge, and interesting work.  C The work should indeed be challenging and interesting, which may bemD satisfying for engineers but doesn't do much for customers unless itJ satisfies their needs as well, which for many the port does not (that's myL main problem too:  I like to feel that my efforts will be productive as well as interesting/challenging).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:29:26 GMTH& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64 9 Message-ID: <qw6g7.2838$uC2.1198692@typhoon1.gnilink.net>i  @ > BTW- there aren't really any good hotel rooms in Anaheim, just > overpriced ones.   Unofficially...t  E Many years ago I worked for a school district which had strict traveloG limits. I found in Anaheim one could rent a sub compact and stay at the > motels about 1 mile from Disney for fairly reasonable dollars.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:51:30 -0400-5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> - Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64 2 Message-ID: <eJ7g7.327$bB1.27338@news.cpqcorp.net>  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3B7EDD79.CD759673@videotron.ca>...A  G >I do not wish to belittle the VMS engineers for whom I still hold muchoK >respect, but is it reasonable to ask these engineers to start to make suchwG >huge architectural decisions on a chip they know little of and have nor >experience with ?  ) As they say, that's life in the big city.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:22:53 -0500p From: eccm <eccm@swbell.net>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64d* Message-ID: <3B83177D.4143316E@swbell.net>  E Now you're talking!! I stayed at a place called the 'economy inn' for A about $50 per night. Good enough, clean, cold A/C. One rental cart between 3 people.. O     Jeff Killeen wrote:M > B > > BTW- there aren't really any good hotel rooms in Anaheim, just > > overpriced ones. >  > Unofficially...y > G > Many years ago I worked for a school district which had strict traveloI > limits. I found in Anaheim one could rent a sub compact and stay at theT@ > motels about 1 mile from Disney for fairly reasonable dollars.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:31:26 -0500d From: eccm <eccm@swbell.net>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on Tru64 * Message-ID: <3B83197E.154DFFCE@swbell.net>   Newbie JrSysAdmin wrote: > P > eccm <eccm@swbell.net> wrote in message news:<3B81C141.62F3ECF2@swbell.net>...J > > Haha! a bletcherous personal flame, born of /dev/null and drooled fromI > > the lips of a known entity, perched upon a pinnacle of its own cruft,aA > > er.. from a yahoo-over-goolge account! What are we coming to?3 > >FI > > Shannon's on the user society board of directors, so maybe he gets tonF > > go for free, so what if he does?. There was a time not so long agoI > > when that was not the case. Shannon Knows Anaheim Hotel Prices, yes..vJ > > but that's immaterial. Those that are of any knowledge in professionalI > > matters don't compute "shannon" with "lackey", as they are aware thath6 > > the two are not same type variable. get knowledge. > >aB > > BTW- there aren't really any good hotel rooms in Anaheim, just > > overpriced ones. > >o > C > for the record, i apologized to terry for my missive. he's just a H > smart guy making a living, and you guys have freely created the market
 > for him. > F > but, some of you need to buy a dictionary. you are misusing words ofE > as few as two syllables, words i hope my own son will master aroundVD > the 7th grade. pardon my noting the non-coincidence of the "compaq= > enterprise unix" crowd and this basic cognitive deficiency.a > D > and, some of you compaq cheerleaders should respond to some of theG > compaq folks who are in here critical in name. they "deserve" to have C > their posts addressed, and they have called compaq far worse thana > "lackey."c >  > but, i won't hold my breath.  F Some people misuse or misspell words to make a point, or to be a smartE aleck. I am usually a smart aleck when I do it. I generally lurk, butaF I responded like I did because Terry's a real good friend and so I was* pissed off. It happens, but not too often.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:11:02 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lrjr6$i1p$1@pyrite.mv.net>  3 "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messageN$ news:3B8143E1.FA636D93@dplanet.ch...   ...y  G > It is now closing on 2 months since the announcement and not one peep I > has been heard from Compaq since the fateful (?) day back in June.  I'msJ > sure that even a first year marketing student would have been failed andE > thrown out of the course if they had done as poorly as Compaq have.SI > First rule of PR is surely to keep your customers informed - it doesn'ts@ > matter if it is good news or bad news, but keep them informed.  K ... and additional articulate expansion on this point, all of which I agreef with.d  I But one should not mistake this for the entire issue.  Compaq still has acH lot to answer for in its lies about Alpha's performance potential w.r.t.L IA64, its concurrent (and contradictory) attempt to portray Alpha as somehowD *replacing* an ailing IA64 at Intel, its lies about Alpha's economicC viability, and its unilateral and (given the lack of any compellinghI technical or financial issue) arbitrary discard of the explicit long-term:J commitments it used to suck customers for at least the past two years intoE continuing to commit their businesses' futures to the Alpha platform.r  E No amount of additional information from Compaq, should they deign toiJ provide it, will be perceived as adequate (at least by some of us) as longJ as the source isn't credible.  And right now Compaq's credibility is zero.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 13:28:05 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <B4hVOMJnTVN1@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  R In article <9lrikq$h3h$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:rsQz3W4zLl8E@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >  > ...o > A >> Your assumption is he didn't ask "hard direct questions."  ButeB >> later (or earlier) Nic mentions he is constrained and mentions:B >> "trust me".  So you don't trust him.  That's fine.  But Nic hasC >> been around in this newsgroup a lot longer than you and has beent' >> very consistent.  Why not trust him?a > J > Because what he's really asking is for people to share his trust in whatM > Compaq says (in this case in the person of Rich Marcello, who is a good guytL > but definitely a Team Compaq player), which would be really, really stupid > at this point. >   2 	That is why I was appealing to Nic's reliability.A 	There is a certain matter of personal integrity and to have that,E 	violated doesn't do good.  And yes, I realize there were people thattC 	stuck their necks on the line by convincing management about Alpha B 	to have it turn around and "go away."  But look at the timelines.B 	I don't know of an Intel server where I am at that is more than 3G 	years old.  Shoot, I expect the Alphas I stuck in at various places to H 	be chugging away for 7-10 years (2 large Alphas I stuck in over 3 years@ 	ago at a site have great upgrade potential... have already been? 	board-swapped to EV6 and CPUs aren't taxed).  Now maybe Compaq1C 	does something very stupid and does not deliver on Alpha futures. *A 	Again,  that is why it is important to look at roadmaps underwayrF 	for VAX/VMS support (again, focusing on OS, not hardware) and gaining@ 	a clue about commitments in that area (very large customers areB 	depending on continued VAX/VMS support and upgrades).  So if theyG 	are committing to continued support/developement of Alpha for a numbers& 	of years, that works for most folks.   > 	But for your scenario to be accepted... Marcello has lost allB 	credibility (he hasn't).  Marcello is duped into not knowing what? 	is going on as we are all sold down the river (chance of that:s 	slim to none).t  ? 	Seriously, by the time you start juggling all these "what ifs"e: 	and piecing together the "collapse" , it gets very silly.A 	A collapse of such magnitude would make the MIPS->Alpha debacle e? 	look puny and would result in such a financial hit that senior-@ 	management is very well aware, to be sure... and would avoid at 	all costs.m  ? 	Another consideration, there are NDA sessions at CETS and NDA iB 	sessions at the local office level in October.  IPF NDA sessions.A 	Now maybe there isn't anything to these NDA sessions.  Seems the"C 	NDAs I have participated in have been of substance.  And more thanh; 	likely what Nic knows is NDA material.  Do you trust therer? 	is substance to what he knows?  No?  He is one of the "dupees" ; 	also?  Not clever enough to determine when he too is being 9 	duped?  Ever dealt with shady vendors?  I'm sure Nic has < 	more than his share of vendor experiences and knows when he0 	is being duped and knows what questions to ask.  A 	Maybe we could 	speculate these are without substance somehow?  e* 	Something else to juggle and spin into a * 	"Chicken Little Sky is Falling" scenario.   				Robx   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:40:37 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lrlim$ja9$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messageh# news:3B8105FB.F23DC0DD@127.0.0.1...e   ...h  $ > You are NOT doing VMS any favours.  H At least some of us are not directly trying to do VMS (and certainly notH Compaq) any favors:  we're trying to place sufficient public pressure onI Compaq to force it to change its ways (and in the process treat VMS as itaK deserves to be treated) or suffer significant monetary consequences.  If weiL fail, VMS may suffer (justified) customer attrition that might not otherwiseG have occurred - but we'll still have been doing those (non-)customers amF favor by alerting them to the problem and if Compaq *doesn't* mend itsJ behavior then VMS has no real future anyway, so nothing much will be lost.  K I said a couple of years ago that the only significant contributions to theeL industry Compaq made appeared to be through its DEC and Tandem acquisitions,J and I've seen no reason whatsoever to change that view since then.  At theI moment, I suspect the industry would be better off if Compaq imploded andoJ its assets were bought by someone able to make better use of them, but I'dB be more than happy for Compaq to see the light and prove me wrong.   ...o  J > I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputerJ > Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisG > own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle onwI > things, and he's got a feel for where things are going, and, the future H > is good, even if off what may be described as 'the expected path' of aF > few months ago. It is still forwards. (* And I mean he does know, he> > knows what architecture is for example, and its futures, andH > technologies. And no, he didn't have my question list beforehand.) I'mI > afraid I can't really say much more than that, you'll just have to taketI > it on my word. I've had to bite my tongue (fingers) more than once whenn > posting here.a  H As I've noted elsewhere, Rich appears to be a good guy, but he's still aJ Compaq guy (whether or not his heart belongs to them, his voice definitelyJ does).  Your word on *what he said* may be good, but that doesn't make hisL words (let alone the interpretation you've placed on them) any more reliableL than anything else emanating from Compaq, which has several outright lies toB answer for before anything else it says can be given any credence.   >mG > Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownnF > newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneE > post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I've3I > forgoten). I'll come and visit, when I've the time. And I do appreciate9G > your concerns about my career, but I do have dependents, if you thinkeH > I've put their and my futures in any doubt then you really do not know > me. I'm here (VMS) by choice.-  L What you believe and do is your own business, and good luck with it:  you'reH presumably an adult, and can make and live with your own decisions.  ButL when you try to influence what others think, expect to get rebutted here:  I= (and I suspect others) have no intention of moving elsewhere.I   ...o  8 > You are very articulate with your arguments, I for oneI > don't particularly like the use of your skills against what you say youl > believe in [VMS].   H While what you like is not a major issue for me, I'll point out that our> fight is not with VMS but with Compaq and its handling of VMS.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:40:37 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lrmdo$ks0$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messagee# news:3B8105FB.F23DC0DD@127.0.0.1...a   ...t  $ > You are NOT doing VMS any favours.  H At least some of us are not directly trying to do VMS (and certainly notH Compaq) any favors:  we're trying to place sufficient public pressure onI Compaq to force it to change its ways (and in the process treat VMS as it2K deserves to be treated) or suffer significant monetary consequences.  If weRL fail, VMS may suffer (justified) customer attrition that might not otherwiseG have occurred - but we'll still have been doing those (non-)customers a F favor by alerting them to the problem and if Compaq *doesn't* mend itsJ behavior then VMS has no real future anyway, so nothing much will be lost.  K I said a couple of years ago that the only significant contributions to theoL industry Compaq made appeared to be through its DEC and Tandem acquisitions,J and I've seen no reason whatsoever to change that view since then.  At theI moment, I suspect the industry would be better off if Compaq imploded andyJ its assets were bought by someone able to make better use of them, but I'dB be more than happy for Compaq to see the light and prove me wrong.   ...i  J > I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputerJ > Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisG > own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle on I > things, and he's got a feel for where things are going, and, the futurewH > is good, even if off what may be described as 'the expected path' of aF > few months ago. It is still forwards. (* And I mean he does know, he> > knows what architecture is for example, and its futures, andH > technologies. And no, he didn't have my question list beforehand.) I'mI > afraid I can't really say much more than that, you'll just have to take I > it on my word. I've had to bite my tongue (fingers) more than once whenr > posting here.l  H As I've noted elsewhere, Rich appears to be a good guy, but he's still aJ Compaq guy (whether or not his heart belongs to them, his voice definitelyJ does).  Your word on *what he said* may be good, but that doesn't make hisL words (let alone the interpretation you've placed on them) any more reliableL than anything else emanating from Compaq, which has several outright lies toB answer for before anything else it says can be given any credence.   > G > Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your owneF > newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneE > post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I've I > forgoten). I'll come and visit, when I've the time. And I do appreciatenG > your concerns about my career, but I do have dependents, if you think H > I've put their and my futures in any doubt then you really do not know > me. I'm here (VMS) by choice.g  L What you believe and do is your own business, and good luck with it:  you'reH presumably an adult, and can make and live with your own decisions.  ButL when you try to influence what others think, expect to get rebutted here:  I= (and I suspect others) have no intention of moving elsewhere.    ...e  8 > You are very articulate with your arguments, I for oneI > don't particularly like the use of your skills against what you say youe > believe in [VMS].i  H While what you like is not a major issue for me, I'll point out that our> fight is not with VMS but with Compaq and its handling of VMS.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:22:30 -0400@' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lro17$m22$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 Try to read and understand the words this time, Rob:  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:B4hVOMJnTVN1@eisner.encompasserve.org...oL > In article <9lrikq$h3h$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  > >e< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:rsQz3W4zLl8E@eisner.encompasserve.org...a > >T > > ...o > >6C > >> Your assumption is he didn't ask "hard direct questions."  ButoD > >> later (or earlier) Nic mentions he is constrained and mentions:D > >> "trust me".  So you don't trust him.  That's fine.  But Nic hasE > >> been around in this newsgroup a lot longer than you and has been ) > >> very consistent.  Why not trust him?  > >eL > > Because what he's really asking is for people to share his trust in whatK > > Compaq says (in this case in the person of Rich Marcello, who is a good0 guyrG > > but definitely a Team Compaq player), which would be really, reallyd stupid > > at this point. > >s >l3 > That is why I was appealing to Nic's reliability.l  H Nic's reliability is not the issue.  Even Rich's might not be the issue. Compaq's is the issue.  B > There is a certain matter of personal integrity and to have thatF > violated doesn't do good.  And yes, I realize there were people thatD > stuck their necks on the line by convincing management about AlphaC > to have it turn around and "go away."  But look at the timelines.nC > I don't know of an Intel server where I am at that is more than 3oH > years old.  Shoot, I expect the Alphas I stuck in at various places toI > be chugging away for 7-10 years (2 large Alphas I stuck in over 3 yearsTA > ago at a site have great upgrade potential... have already beenb@ > board-swapped to EV6 and CPUs aren't taxed).  Now maybe CompaqC > does something very stupid and does not deliver on Alpha futures.   L And equally likely Compaq does something very stupid and does not deliver onG VMS futures:  what possible reason could you have for believing them in J these matters any more than you believed them (until two months ago) about Alpha?  B > Again,  that is why it is important to look at roadmaps underwayG > for VAX/VMS support (again, focusing on OS, not hardware) and gainingoA > a clue about commitments in that area (very large customers aretC > depending on continued VAX/VMS support and upgrades).  So if theyaH > are committing to continued support/developement of Alpha for a number& > of years, that works for most folks.  9 If it happens.  And if VMS support happens along with it.   L Two big 'if's.  Nothing you've said for the past two months does anything toG make Compaq more trustworthy, and *that's* what's required.  Otherwise,,G you're just repeating the same faith-based arguments, and I hope you'll I eventually get it through your head that those of us who don't share your 0 faith just aren't going to be converted by them.  J For some people, given the eventual certainty that a port will be requiredG anyway, porting to a more trustworthy vendor (and one that appears moresH sensitive to their needs) will continue to be an attractive option untilB such time as Compaq takes major *actions* to rebuild some level of credibility.   ...d  @ > Seriously, by the time you start juggling all these "what ifs"; > and piecing together the "collapse" , it gets very silly.sA > A collapse of such magnitude would make the MIPS->Alpha debaclec@ > look puny and would result in such a financial hit that seniorA > management is very well aware, to be sure... and would avoid ats > all costs.  J Exactly what makes you think that precisely such a scenario is not alreadyH well under way?  The Alpha debacle *is* going to cost Compaq significantG revenue and profit in its Alpha systems *at least* until they have been L ported to and can be sold on IA64 platforms (apparently in 2 years for Tru64J and 3 for VMS) - the only questions are how much (i.e., how many customersH will bail out during this period, and we already know that the number isK decidedly non-zero) and whether it will be enough to cause Compaq to renegel> on its newest set of 'long-term commitments' to Alpha and VMS.   >a? > Another consideration, there are NDA sessions at CETS and NDAoC > sessions at the local office level in October.  IPF NDA sessions. B > Now maybe there isn't anything to these NDA sessions.  Seems the5 > NDAs I have participated in have been of substance.t  E Did you by any chance ever participate in an NDA session that assuredo/ Alpha's future development (e.g., through EV8)?      And more thano< > likely what Nic knows is NDA material.  Do you trust there@ > is substance to what he knows?  No?  He is one of the "dupees"< > also?  Not clever enough to determine when he too is being( > duped?  Ever dealt with shady vendors?  F Merely by its recent actions and lies Compaq definitely qualifies as aI 'shady vendor', so I'm not sure what your point is.  I'm getting tired ofeL pointing out that virtually anyone you care to point to as a canny evaluator> of vendor integrity is someone who was up until two months agoK well-and-truly 'duped' by Compaq about Alpha's future (Alan Greig may be anrJ exception, if you'd like to accept his evaluation) - but until you give upG this ridiculous position, I guess I'll just have to keep repeating thatn point.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:27:56 GMTJ= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)r( Subject: RE: The Final Knell Has Sounded0 Message-ID: <00A00D15.26554072@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <SRag7.355$bB1.27672@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:pq >In article <00A00B6E.02B4C865@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:i >:In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D5601A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes:2 >:>http://www.cets2001.com/cets/controller/catalog >:  >:    The system is experiencing! >:    problems with your browser.i >:< >:    Either your session has become inactive or you need to= >:    turn on cookies. Try logging in again or enable cookiesh> >:    in your browser. For help enabling cookies, click here.  >sI >  Works OK here, Netscape Communicator V3.03Gold, selectively accepting e >  the cookie.  470 hits found.,  D Netscape Communicator V3.03Gold on VMS I'm to presume?  I've found a Show Alert befores [] Accepting a cookiei  . but never anything to explicitly deny cookies.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            mJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes3   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:37:23 -0400b5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>C( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <KFdg7.394$bB1.27866@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrjr6$i1p$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >s4 >"John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in message% >news:3B8143E1.FA636D93@dplanet.ch...r >( >... >eH >> It is now closing on 2 months since the announcement and not one peepJ >> has been heard from Compaq since the fateful (?) day back in June.  I'mK >> sure that even a first year marketing student would have been failed andeF >> thrown out of the course if they had done as poorly as Compaq have.J >> First rule of PR is surely to keep your customers informed - it doesn'tA >> matter if it is good news or bad news, but keep them informed.o >tL >... and additional articulate expansion on this point, all of which I agree >with. >iJ >But one should not mistake this for the entire issue.  Compaq still has aI >lot to answer for in its lies about Alpha's performance potential w.r.t. E >IA64, its concurrent (and contradictory) attempt to portray Alpha asA somehownE >*replacing* an ailing IA64 at Intel, its lies about Alpha's economiclD >viability, and its unilateral and (given the lack of any compellingJ >technical or financial issue) arbitrary discard of the explicit long-termK >commitments it used to suck customers for at least the past two years intoiF >continuing to commit their businesses' futures to the Alpha platform. >fF >No amount of additional information from Compaq, should they deign toK >provide it, will be perceived as adequate (at least by some of us) as longhK >as the source isn't credible.  And right now Compaq's credibility is zero.h >q     Bill,   K It is starting to grate on me.  "Lies", "Murder".  Come on.  Find some moremG over-the-top rhetoric.  Why not start calling us baby killers?  Nazi's?sD Abortionists?  Pedophiles?  I'm pretty confident that Jesse would beK insulted that you are calling him a liar.  I believe that his statement was:L made in good faith.  Nothing I have seen or heard challenges that.  Nor doesJ the disagreement between an engineer in the chip group on his belief aboutL long term performance, or it's cost (and not just the cost of the chip) meanK that someone is "lying".  Reasonable people can differ.  Not all people area1 privvy to all the same set of facts - or beliefs.s  G Who made *you* somehow the voice of the customer?  Or even the voice of  reason?e  L I *am* sure that anything that would have resulted in the end of Alpha wouldG not have been acceptable to you.  And that there is nothing that can be L done, short of a "Dallas" it was all a dream sequence - will make you happy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:39:34 -0400r5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>l( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <NHdg7.395$bB1.28127@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrmdo$ks0$1@pyrite.mv.net>...  I >At least some of us are not directly trying to do VMS (and certainly noteI >Compaq) any favors:  we're trying to place sufficient public pressure onpJ >Compaq to force it to change its ways (and in the process treat VMS as itE >deserves to be treated) or suffer significant monetary consequences.   $ Is *that* what you are trying to do?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:41:21 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <Ytjj4hX9SGrA@eisner.encompasserve.org>t   In article <y4pu9qellq.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:6 > hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > 4 >> :>http://www.cets2001.com/cets/controller/catalog >> :" >> :    The system is experiencing# >> :    problems with your browser.a >> :> >> :    Either your session has become inactive or you need to? >> :    turn on cookies. Try logging in again or enable cookiesn@ >> :    in your browser. For help enabling cookies, click here.  >> bK >>   Works OK here, Netscape Communicator V3.03Gold, selectively accepting t! >>   the cookie.  470 hits found.. > ? > There is absolztely no reason such a site would need cookies.   D It saves money by reducing traffic to the site once people find out.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:54:32 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B816AF7.C9E2FDAB@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:J > I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputerJ > Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisG > own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle onr9 > things, and he's got a feel for where things are going,   I Unfortunatly, Marcello is not the head of Compaq. He is just some managernK working under more powerful filks who are on record as stating that Windowsu( was the future for enterprise computing.  K Just like it appears that Storageworks folks were asked to immediatly dump uD duplicate products and had to take decisions that are bad for "true"L enterprise folks, Marcello has to follow what his superiors tell him, and heF has to work with the limited marketing budgets he has at his disposal.  K As far as I am conecrned, Marcello has less authority than Hoff Hoffman. At T least Hoff can make techical decisions that affects features available to customers.  K Actions speak louder than words. I'll beleive Compaq has changed when I see-L Capellas on CNN's business program talking about VMS and pitching it againstI NT. Until then, NT continues to be king at Compaq with VMS relegated as aD legacy system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:07:23 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B816DFA.61A9AAB8@videotron.ca>   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:I > I think you're missing the thrust and perspective of my argument:  I amo@ > not concerned with the response that a specific letter from an/ > individual would produce for that individual.c  M The best bet would be to somehow get Lou Dobbs or others to ask about VMS andrL why Compaq is constantly ignoring its more profitable products the next time# they interview Capellas or Winkler.a  N By having Compaq punblicly humiliated on TV, they may be then have to act in aN *real* way because from then on, the wall street casino analysts will be awareD that Compaq is squandering its more profitable products in favour of" Microsoft's unprofitable products.  H But if you send letters to Compaq management, all you will get will be aM "thank you" letter and perhaps some token action from Compaq to calm you downiG (and such actions are never long lasting- witness the small short livedt "renaissance" )b   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:18:30 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>o( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lrra6$pc4$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:NHdg7.395$bB1.28127@news.cpqcorp.net... >s< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrmdo$ks0$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >wK > >At least some of us are not directly trying to do VMS (and certainly not K > >Compaq) any favors:  we're trying to place sufficient public pressure on L > >Compaq to force it to change its ways (and in the process treat VMS as itG > >deserves to be treated) or suffer significant monetary consequences.l >a& > Is *that* what you are trying to do?  H As I said elsewhere, after enough carrots fail to do the job, you eitherL give up or get out the stick.  Holding Compaq accountable for its actions byK making sure the logical (revenue-related) consequences of them come to passmL rather than get papered over yet again makes an exceptionally virtuous stickE to wield - and if it results in the desired changes, it's win-win for 	 everyone.y  L It's sink-or-swim time for VMS, and Compaq just deliberately punctured VMS'sK floatation device.  Time for it to ante up a major replacement or sink withc it.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 13:08:45 -0700- From: afeldman@gfigroup.com (Alan E. Feldman)-( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded= Message-ID: <af1e4ce6.0108201208.305c438b@posting.google.com>.  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3B809AB9.3B9D952E@videotron.ca>...I > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:H > > write to Compaq in a civil tone, politely explaining what VMS can doD > > for the company, maybe that would help (one can dream); but then > > again, maybe not.  > M > Been there, done that. You know what happens ? You get a nice reply tellingnO > you about efforts underway to put VMS in a "renaissance" mode, and that "verytP > shortly" Compaq will be starting an advertising campaign that will turn Compaq@ > into an enterprise company. So you shut up and remain patient.  B What if you then write back and ask about these "efforts"? I guess( you'll just get another spin-ful letter.   > L > Then you see those famous ads that showcase wintel products as "enteprise"N > products. Then you listen to financial statements where one would expect VMSN > to be mentioned because it is supposedly so profitable at a time when wintelK > is not, but it is not mentioned, its profits probably accounted under they> > "wintel server" group since both are "enterprise" to compaq. > L > Compaq has made its decision. And there is truly very little you can do toN > change its direction. Remember that Compaq is a slave to Microsoft and IntelL > and it does not have the freedom to do as its VMS customers wish it to do.  A Well, I did say "maybe not" and "one can dream". It could be thatrC others have sent rude, profane, insulting letters (hopefully not assC bad as the worst posts I've seen here in c.o.v!) and that cancelleds@ out the positive effect of the polite letters. There may well beE nothing we can do at this point for the reasons you point out. But ifpF Compaq execs have read letters that are like the worst posts I've seenE here, then there is no hope for Compaq to *ever* market VMS properly.a. And they are doing the VMS port, are they not?  L > Compaq, like its Digital predecessor will recat when the complains get tooO > loud. But its reaction is just enough to force the complainers to shut up and P > wait, and meanwhile Compaq returns to its old wintel self until the complaints > surface again.  3 Please, what is "recat"? You must have meant react.s  
 [big snip]   Disclaimer: JMHO   &-) Alan E. Feldman  afeldman@gfigroup.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:44:57 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B8176C5.451DC8BB@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:J > At least some of us are not directly trying to do VMS (and certainly notJ > Compaq) any favors:  we're trying to place sufficient public pressure on' > Compaq to force it to change its ways   A For a decade, I had my head in the sand, refusing to beleive that M Digital/Compaq didn't care for VMS and that VMS could still be succesful fromg desktop to datacentre.  M In such a mode, one does have a tendency to want to show Digital/Compaq theirpK mistakes and try to convince them of the potential of VMS in the hopes that G this would really change. Similarly, you try very hard to convince yourtS customers or bosses that VMS is still alive and that it is still a viable solution.r  M At one point though, you come to realise that you're fighting a losing battle L and that while former VMS friends migrating to other platforms and make tonsI of money, you are stuck which what are now legacy skills that have little G value. Meanwhile, Compaq is busy continuing Palmer's job of dismaltlingy Digital one piece at a time.  H It is a rude awakening. But now, instead of trying to convince Compaq toL change its corporate strategy, I feel more like convincing customers to pullU their heads out of the sand and see Compaq for what it wants to be: a wintel company.   N If Compaq isn't happy with customers seing it as a wintel Company, then CompaqM knows what to do: advertsing VMS on TV instead of advertising its wintel crapv as "enterprise" stuff.  K I find it ironic that long time VMS customers get blasted for waking up andoK smelling the coffee, but the "choir" don't take to blasting Gartner who hastL much more influence on the future of VMS that individual customers could, asH well as blasting those who have succesfully defected to other platforms.I Shouldn't the choir be blasting those who were "smart" and left VMS earlycM instead of blasting those who tried and tried and remained loyal to VMS for au% decade when all the others had left ?     N I generally don't give up easily. But there comes a time when one has to admit  defeat and rebuild from scratch.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:12:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B816F21.C5959425@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:P > So waht of any value is left from Compaq's purchase of DEC? Just the two OSes,J > it seems to me. They killed Alpha, the services part is in disarray, theM > compiler groups were sold to Intel, Storageworks is being disemboweled, them+ > research centers are being downsized, ...l    M But it is possible that Compaq's goal is to sell individual Digital bits over'D time with the revenus exceeding the total purchase price of Digital.  K Consider Alpha. They have managed to position Alpha so that they made a big J bundle of money selling it to Intel.  Andthe minute NT is mature enough toM start including serious stuff, I woudln't be surprised to see Compaq give VMSaG and its engineers to Microsoft in exchange for another bundle of money.l  H Alpha was killed as soon as a potential replacement ship appeared on theL horizon.  So the minute Microsoft starts to talk about future versiosn of NTN that have clustering that rivals VMS', I won't be surprised to see Compaq give VMS to Microsoft.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:52:36 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B81788F.54AF00E4@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > over-the-top rhetoric.  Why not start calling us baby killers?  Nazi's?s > Abortionists?  Pedophiles?    L Wow, a pro-abortion pedophile nazi baby killer in the VMS engineering group.J Have you considered going to those TV talk shows like Jerry Springer ? You, might make more money there than at Compaq !  H Is your wife a vegetarian lesbian islamic transsexual and you met in theA police truck after having been arrested at a pro-abortion rally ?,  K It is good to know that there are still some colourful people at Compaq :-)5   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 15:51:09 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)p( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <AbcxikL88Szi@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  b In article <KFdg7.394$bB1.27866@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  
 alleged that:"  < > Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrjr6$i1p$1@pyrite.mv.net>...  G >>No amount of additional information from Compaq, should they deign towL >>provide it, will be perceived as adequate (at least by some of us) as longL >>as the source isn't credible.  And right now Compaq's credibility is zero.   and responded:  I > Who made *you* somehow the voice of the customer?  Or even the voice ofi	 > reason?G  B Certainly not those of us who have kill-filed Mr. Todd's posts :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:41:24 +0200t& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B818404.EBE49464@dplanet.ch>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > j > In article <3B7D8B26.92C88DFA@intel.com>, "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> writes: > >iF > >    http://www.openvms.compaq.com/presentations/openvmsstrategy.htm > J > I looked at this presentation.  Here's the commentary given on slide 13,# > "OpenVMS strategy going forward."R  - And two sentences really stand out for me ...7  C 1.  "Our goal is that all of our existing software partners will bei> porting their applications to the new Itanium Processor Family platforms."a   andw  G 2.  "It will also broaden the market for enterprise solutions, ALLOWING A YOU TO BRING MORE APPLICATIONS TO YOUR COMPUTING ENVIRONMENT. [myr
 emphasis]"    F Why does Compaq set its goals so low when it has stated elsewhere thatE the move to IPF will increase the availability of applications ?  WhysC should porting be a difficult operation ?  Recompile, relink and itsA should work.  Few ISVs would have much that touches the processor 	 directly.s  H Can they also explain why moving to IPF would allow anyone to bring moreG applications to one's computing environment ?  It's still VMS, with VMS H runtime libraries and system routines, and that's what applications work with.   F Compaq's statements about application availability countinue to be theC vacuous statements that we've heard since day one.  Compaq has beencE known to acknowledge that the availability of applications is a majoriG reason for selecting an IT platform and yet we've heard nothing to giveo= us any confidence that the situation will drastically change.   G Perhaps they'll use some of that money they got from Intel, or at leasti< the part that doesn't disappear to prop up poor PC sales ...     John McLeanN   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:51:00 +0200i& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B818644.20D2D3B9@dplanet.ch>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: >  > ....   > P > So waht of any value is left from Compaq's purchase of DEC? Just the two OSes,J > it seems to me. They killed Alpha, the services part is in disarray, theM > compiler groups were sold to Intel, Storageworks is being disemboweled, the + > research centers are being downsized, ...t > 
 >         Jani  D You forgot Alta-Vista.  Bought as part of the deal and sold about 18A months later for, IIRC, about 2 or 3 times what they paid for it.f  B I have a feeling that there were also other things which have beenG successively sold off, including software divisions  ... which could beNH why Compaq now has to buy service companies for heir attempt to get into the IT services business.v     John McLeanm   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:59:07 -0700d# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>u( Subject: RE: The Final Knell Has Sounded9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEFMDCAA.tom@kednos.com>s   and PAIX   > -----Original Message-----/ > From: John McLean [mailto:mcleanj@dplanet.ch]e' > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:51 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com@* > Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded >l >s >u >d > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >1 > > .... >r > >>? > > So waht of any value is left from Compaq's purchase of DEC?  > Just the two OSes,L > > it seems to me. They killed Alpha, the services part is in disarray, the= > > compiler groups were sold to Intel, Storageworks is beingf > disemboweled, the - > > research centers are being downsized, ...r > >o > >         Janu >rF > You forgot Alta-Vista.  Bought as part of the deal and sold about 18C > months later for, IIRC, about 2 or 3 times what they paid for it.- >0D > I have a feeling that there were also other things which have beenI > successively sold off, including software divisions  ... which could besJ > why Compaq now has to buy service companies for heir attempt to get into > the IT services business.a >a >o
 > John McLeant >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:28:19 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>c( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9ls2tn$498$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:KFdg7.394$bB1.27866@news.cpqcorp.net...< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9lrjr6$i1p$1@pyrite.mv.net>...   ...r  L > >But one should not mistake this for the entire issue.  Compaq still has aK > >lot to answer for in its lies about Alpha's performance potential w.r.t. G > >IA64, its concurrent (and contradictory) attempt to portray Alpha ast	 > somehowyG > >*replacing* an ailing IA64 at Intel, its lies about Alpha's economic-F > >viability, and its unilateral and (given the lack of any compellingL > >technical or financial issue) arbitrary discard of the explicit long-termH > >commitments it used to suck customers for at least the past two years intoH > >continuing to commit their businesses' futures to the Alpha platform. > >iH > >No amount of additional information from Compaq, should they deign toH > >provide it, will be perceived as adequate (at least by some of us) as longG > >as the source isn't credible.  And right now Compaq's credibility ise zero.o > >  >i >u > Bill,a >e  > It is starting to grate on me.  J Gee, Fred:  Compaq's actions grate on a lot of us too.  Get used to it, or help fix it.  	 >  "Lies"a  K Precisely.  The assertion that the Alpha engineers told Compaq that keepingcH Alpha performance-competitive with IA64 was iffy was without question anL outright lie.  Aside from the evidence I and others have offered here I haveJ more given to me in confidence by the engineers themselves - and there areJ internal sources you have access to should you wish to check them out thatL waffle vigorously on this when the question is directly put to them (e.g., aJ high-level Alpha development manager has clearly stated privately that theA Alpha debacle was a business decision, not a technical decision).t  K As was the assertion that Alpha was not economically viable at the spendingeD levels that had been planned all along (I've provided what financialL analysis of this is externally available elsewhere:  don't bother responding8 unless you've read it and have some new insight to add).  J As was the shorter-lived assertion (inconsistent with the first lie above,E and likely embarrassing to Intel) that Intel was going to adopt AlphaoJ internals to rescue its ailing IA64 technology (at least in any time frame! similar to that of the VMS port).o  L As of course were the continuing reassurances about Alpha's long-term future; right up to the moment its future was cut off at the knees.t   > "Murder".   J Not a term I've used ('poisoning' seems more appropriate, now that I thinkL of it:  kind of like using your well as a latrine because you think the cityL is about to supply a water main), though by no means entirely inappropriate.I And the term 'Alphacide' has a memorable - and also appropriate - ring too it.a  + >  I'm pretty confident that Jesse would bek+ > insulted that you are calling him a liar.o  K He probably would be had I (or anyone else I've noticed) said such a thing:hI perhaps you need a brush-up reading-comprehension course (or just need to L read more carefully:  I recognize that monitoring c.o.v. is not your primaryE job, but if you're not going to read the material carefully enough to@@ understand it you really have little business commenting on it).  I I'm inclined to believe that Jesse's comments in the letter he wrote withdK Bill Heil reflected his honest understanding of a solid future for Alpha assI of that moment (and Heil's may have as well), quite possibly because thatrF was the future that Pfeiffer had planned (and Capellas hadn't yet doneI anything to call those plans into question - save kill NT on Alpha, which B Alan remembers as being the motivation for the reassuring letter).  F I'm a lot less certain that Capellas and/or his immediate reports wereI anywhere nearly as solid in their support when the letter was published -iJ and I remember a statement from someone inside Compaq at some point to theH effect that Capellas was 'giving Alpha a chance to prove itself' (thoughH since I can't recall the source I can hardly vouch for its credibility -F save to say that I remember being inclined to believe it at the time).I Given that I'm sure they were aware of the letter's contents, if they hadnL anything less than a full commitment themselves at that time this makes them liars by omission.  "   I believe that his statement wasI > made in good faith.  Nothing I have seen or heard challenges that.  NorR doesL > the disagreement between an engineer in the chip group on his belief aboutI > long term performance, or it's cost (and not just the cost of the chip): mean > that someone is "lying".  I How about the uniform disagreement (with no dissenting voices that I know E of) of a bunch of those Alpha engineers plus their management, who've(J asserted in no uncertain terms that they neither gave Compaq anything likeK the performance-problem heads-up that Compaq says they did nor believe that J Alpha had anything less than the full performance potential (compared with* IA64) that they've always asserted it did?  K Compaq either lied or was so monumentally incompetent that it based a major G decision on a complete misconception that it made no attempt to verify.g  /   Reasonable people can differ.  Not all people  areh3 > privvy to all the same set of facts - or beliefs.u  I As I've said elsewhere, such 'Reasonable people can differ' statements in G this context remind me of the stands of the cigarette companies as theytH vigorously disputed the health hazards of smoking.  And more recently ofH those who've poo-pooed the idea of human-activity-caused global warming.  G At some point, people have to weigh the evidence and make decisions.  IyE intend to make sure they have as much evidence to weigh as I can makeq5 available, and then let them make up their own minds.a   >eI > Who made *you* somehow the voice of the customer?  Or even the voice ofe	 > reason?o  J Nobody:  I require neither your nor anyone else's permission to post here,H and people will of course make of my posts what they choose to.  Since IH spent considerable time and effort over a year ago with an internationalJ group of over a dozen others preparing a strategy presentation to CapellasK suggesting how Compaq could better leverage its DEC assets, I have both theeI interest and arguably some insight to contribute to this discussion - and " fully intend to continue to do so.   > H > I *am* sure that anything that would have resulted in the end of Alpha wouldt" > not have been acceptable to you.  J So now you're inclined to substitute telepathic powers for reading skills?B On the basis of this example, I'd say that's not a very wise idea.  E An end to Alpha that would have been entirely acceptable (to me and I K suspect to many others who are currently displeased) would have been an end-L driven by the market.  Compaq had already sunk enough money into EV8 to makeF completing it eminently feasible:  the mere difference in likely AlphaL system *profit* over the next 2 - 3 years between being a lame duck platformJ (with no alternative yet available for VMS and Tru64) and one with a solidG future would have paid for EV8's completion, with the better part of $1oJ billion (conservatively, assuming no better marketing than already exists)H left over to cover the costs of the IA64 VMS and Tru64 ports plus a goodL chunk of whatever blood money Intel has offered (assuming that it's not just1 discounts:  could Compaq possibly be that dumb?).C  E That would have given the market the opportunity to compare EV69 withnH Merced, EV7 with McKinley, and EV8 with <whatever>.  If they'd gone withE IA64 to the point that Alpha-related profits diminished, Compaq couldiJ gracefully have announced Alpha's impending stabilization with, I suspect,I virtually no opposition (or feeling of betrayal, if it had approached therJ issue properly) - and still been ahead of the game financially; otherwise,I Compaq could have capitalized on the very real long-term asset that AlphanJ likely would have been, and customers could have been spared the pain (or,! minimally, annoyance) of porting.o   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:58:39 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>f( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9ls4mb$61i$1@pyrite.mv.net>  3 "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messaget$ news:3B818644.20D2D3B9@dplanet.ch...   ...o  F > You forgot Alta-Vista.  Bought as part of the deal and sold about 18C > months later for, IIRC, about 2 or 3 times what they paid for it.   I My vague memory is that the deal was paid for in CMGI stock, which proved I very desirable in the short term but later lost a great deal of its valueuJ (and my also-vague impression is that Compaq may have failed to capitalizeE on the opportunity before the bottom dropped out of it).  CorrectionsM welcome.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:17:34 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B81A89C.D0B75363@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:H > Why does Compaq set its goals so low when it has stated elsewhere thatG > the move to IPF will increase the availability of applications ?  WhyH, > should porting be a difficult operation ?   L Consider VMS' remaining customers. Recompiling the application isn't enough.J Before they install it in production, they will want the vendor to certifyI that the application will run on the new platform. This also requires thelV vendor to continue to support and certify their application on the previous platforms.  M If alpha is expected to continue to be used by customers for another 10 yearseL before they risk moving to IA64, that is a long time to support 2 platforms,) one of which is "dead" with no new sales.   J In the end though, it is all about market perception. If it is business asM usual for Compaq (eg: no VMS marketing), then ISVs won't see the potential torI increase VMS sales, so the forced porting to IA64 won't be seen as havingrM increased sales potential, but will instead be seen as diluting profits sincen: it will cost more to support the same number of customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:25:37 -0400V( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded+ Message-ID: <3B810FD1.2CDE719C@bigfoot.com>2   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:L > > level of profanity in a letter might serve as an excellent gauge of whatF > > your're doing wrong in business.  One might even develop a scoring > H > Here I disagree. You can say what they're doing wrong without rudenessF > and profanity. Letters filled with profanity are probably assumed toH > be written by an immature person and are quickly renamed to NL:. WouldH > you put rudeness and profanity in a resume? No, you would explain whatG > you can do for the company. Similarly, I'd write to Compaq explaininge > what VMS can do for them.h > H > I find that I get much better responses from companies when I complainH > to them in a civil manner. I usually get something material in return,H > like coupons for their product, or free replacement parts. It may wellH > be, however, as JF Mezei recently wrote, that there is nothing that weH > can do. But rudeness and profanity can only make things worse, and may1 > "harden their hearts" against us in the future.< > K > > system to produce a negativity index by counting the "D", "A", "F", andlH > > "B" words used in the letter to illustrate the deficiency of service, > > experienced by the author of the letter.  G I think you're missing the thrust and perspective of my argument:  I amu> not concerned with the response that a specific letter from anD individual would produce for that individual.  Of course there wouldD usually be a better response without a profanity-laced document - noD argument there.  My concern was from the perspective of the BUSINESSH receiving such a letter, not the individual writing the letter.  If it'sC my business, I want to know what I'm doing wrong.  The problem with8F upper management of corporations, is that quite frequently, they wouldH rather stick their collective head in the sand and pretend that problemsC don't exist or would rather not know about them in the first place,mE unless there is some incentive for them to deal with those problems. p> Human nature is such that most people (especially in executiveE positions) don't like dealing with unpleasantness that causes them tomH have to expend energy to solve.  To a large degree, I think this is whatA separates competent technical people from these "run-of-the-mill"yD executive types; I think more often than not, engineers enjoy a good> challenge, and derive satisfaction from solving problems.  TheG executives who don't fall into the "ostrich" category, and who love the B challenge of solving business problems are few and far between (itE seems) these days.  But if I'm a CEO, these are the kinds of people I B want working for me.  Compaq seems wholly devoid of these types of executives in its employ.o   HM   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:14:49 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <P78g7.333$bB1.27408@news.cpqcorp.net>  . Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message >>D >> And no they aren't that intimately connected.  As Fred points outA >> in comp.arch, they "think" they have the page protection issueoA >> worked out and he mentions primitives in IA64 that make up forr >lH >Since I was the first to place the issue before the crowd in the squareH >and pull its pants down to the ankles, do you think it might be wise toH >discuss this possible problem solution scenario here where it was firstH >discussed?  I know I might be convinced that there is a future for VMS,H >-- as we know it -- if some of the hurdles would be publicly discussed. >     L Eh?  What is your point here?  Asking how we plan to solve something is someJ sort of public embarassment for us?  Or that where I saw the statement wasJ in another ng?  Or that you think we're full of crap until we give you the design specification?k  C >> lack of Alpha primitives (i.e. use Itanium primitives to make upeI >> for Alpha primitives, etc.).  So it appears there isn't a show-stoppere >> from a porting perspective. > 2 >Wait, I'm not done studying the IPF manuals... :) >o    K Let us know when you're finished, maybe you can save us the work of findingy out why we can't do it.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:22:35 -0400l5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>N( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <oa8g7.335$bB1.27338@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 "Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" wrote in message  E >Does "with binary file compatibility, existing AlphaServers will runnI >seamlessly with Itanium-based Compaq servers" only mean that RMS will beN >supported on VMS/Itanium?  H I would take this to mean that mixed clusters of IPF and Alpha will workI without any changes to the on disk structures or data.  Just like VAX andn ALpha have.i  + >Or does it mean that the servers will haved? >on-the-fly Alpha->Intel translation to run binary executables?    Yes.   >Does F >"Compaq servers" mean that only Compaq hardware will run VMS/Itanium?
 >Etc, etc. >s    E It means that we are in the business to sell VMS *and* to sell Compaql Servers.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 15:29:14 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has SoundedH Message-ID: <y4zo8uvp05.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:i  F > The problem isn't with desupport of the (mainly) ancient controllersD > you mention above. It is the desupport notice for recently (and inC > once case *CURRENTLY* shipping controllers. I don't know how manyTF > times I have to repeat this. And what's more Compaq have already setF > dates internally for the desupport of hardware and software servicesD > they've just assured us "will continue". Don't believe me? Put theH > question to *SENIOR* Storageworks personnel and watch them look at the > floor.  N So waht of any value is left from Compaq's purchase of DEC? Just the two OSes,H it seems to me. They killed Alpha, the services part is in disarray, theK compiler groups were sold to Intel, Storageworks is being disemboweled, ther) research centers are being downsized, ...p   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:54:31 -0400p( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B811696.10624BD@bigfoot.com>   Nic Clews wrote: >  > Nic Clews wrote: > >lE > > That way they'd be given something more 'productive', walking themL > > streets proclaiming doom and gloom while the rest of us just get on with > > the job in hand. > >u > > :-)  > 1 > I'm beginning to sound like a bowl of petunias.d >  > Alan, Bill, et al; > I > I fully appreciate your concerns, but shouting in this newsgroup is notl
 > helpful. > D > While following up some Solaris related stuff, I stumbed across anH > impression that VMS was dead about 5 years ago, but it would appear toE > have stemmed from the type of FUD that is being spread in this way.  > J > You are NOT doing VMS any favours. I don't know how many systems are areI > involved, with, but through the "Joy of Leveraging" I'm involved in thevG > order of 1000's of systems/clusters, and to be frank, I've not reallyh; > got the time to sit around here, I'm actually quite busy.t  8  Obviously you do, since you had the time to write this.   > J > I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputerJ > Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisG > own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle oneI > things, and he's got a feel for where things are going, and, the futurewH > is good, even if off what may be described as 'the expected path' of aF > few months ago. It is still forwards. (* And I mean he does know, he> > knows what architecture is for example, and its futures, and  A So we should all be really impressed by someone wielding all that G potential power actually knowing something pertinent? Are you listeningvF to yourself?  Maybe the next time you're on a teleconference with him,C you can collect yourself long enough to stop fawning, stop being soiE awfully impressed by his executive aura, and ask him some hard directo
 questions.  H > technologies. And no, he didn't have my question list beforehand.) I'mI > afraid I can't really say much more than that, you'll just have to takeiI > it on my word. I've had to bite my tongue (fingers) more than once whenu > posting here.n > G > Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownmF > newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneE > post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I'veJ > forgoten).  F The call for this kind of CENSORSHIP is not only rude and offensive inE such an equal access forum such as this, but possibly telegraphs youra' true agenda.  Shall be burn books next?r  =  I'll come and visit, when I've the time. And I do appreciate G > your concerns about my career, but I do have dependents, if you thinkrH > I've put their and my futures in any doubt then you really do not know > me. I'm here (VMS) by choice.t >  [snip]   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:35:05 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded0 Message-ID: <00A00CEC.3D1E19BE@SendSpamHere.ORG>  j In article <P78g7.333$bB1.27408@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:/ >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in messagen >>>tE >>> And no they aren't that intimately connected.  As Fred points outiB >>> in comp.arch, they "think" they have the page protection issueB >>> worked out and he mentions primitives in IA64 that make up for >>I >>Since I was the first to place the issue before the crowd in the squareaI >>and pull its pants down to the ankles, do you think it might be wise toaI >>discuss this possible problem solution scenario here where it was firstdI >>discussed?  I know I might be convinced that there is a future for VMS,tI >>-- as we know it -- if some of the hurdles would be publicly discussed.e >> >a >iM >Eh?  What is your point here?  Asking how we plan to solve something is some K >sort of public embarassment for us?  Or that where I saw the statement wassK >in another ng?  Or that you think we're full of crap until we give you thet >design specification?  F No.  It was the initial snuffing I got here when I first brought it to light.      D >>> lack of Alpha primitives (i.e. use Itanium primitives to make upJ >>> for Alpha primitives, etc.).  So it appears there isn't a show-stopper >>> from a porting perspective.s >>3 >>Wait, I'm not done studying the IPF manuals... :)a >> >b > L >Let us know when you're finished, maybe you can save us the work of finding >out why we can't do it.  I I've never indicated that you can or cannot port VMS.  What I'm concernedqI about is VMS design changes or trade-off because IPF shortcoming.  Yes, IiH know user mode code will continue to perform like user mode code.  ThereI are lots of third-party apps that rely on inner mode workings -- whether aJ you will or will not consider them supported -- that I fear might be jeop- ardized.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             oJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesm   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 09:48:13 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <rsQz3W4zLl8E@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  U In article <3B811696.10624BD@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:I     >> nK >> I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputeruK >> Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisnH >> own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle onJ >> things, and he's got a feel for where things are going, and, the futureI >> is good, even if off what may be described as 'the expected path' of aoG >> few months ago. It is still forwards. (* And I mean he does know, hen? >> knows what architecture is for example, and its futures, ande > C > So we should all be really impressed by someone wielding all that I > potential power actually knowing something pertinent? Are you listening H > to yourself?  Maybe the next time you're on a teleconference with him,E > you can collect yourself long enough to stop fawning, stop being sopG > awfully impressed by his executive aura, and ask him some hard direct  > questions. >   ? 	Your assumption is he didn't ask "hard direct questions."  Buti@ 	later (or earlier) Nic mentions he is constrained and mentions:@ 	"trust me".  So you don't trust him.  That's fine.  But Nic hasA 	been around in this newsgroup a lot longer than you and has been ' 	very consistent.  Why not trust him?  f  I >> technologies. And no, he didn't have my question list beforehand.) I'msJ >> afraid I can't really say much more than that, you'll just have to takeJ >> it on my word. I've had to bite my tongue (fingers) more than once when >> posting here. >> mH >> Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownG >> newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someonenF >> post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I've
 >> forgoten).  > H > The call for this kind of CENSORSHIP is not only rude and offensive inG > such an equal access forum such as this, but possibly telegraphs yourp) > true agenda.  Shall be burn books next?a >   A 	Ah CENSORSHIP.  Give us a break.  This is Usenet.  Go back abouti? 	3 or 4 years.  The whine and smoke and sparks from the PowerPClF 	folks was almost unbearable and constantly spilling over to comp.archA 	to the point that many posts were about "moderated comp.arch."   A 	Occasionally , PC drivel spills over into comp.arch and the same1G 	subject comes up.  Eventually, PowerPC whine/smoke/sparks went *poof* T6 	when it was discovered it will never challenge Intel.  > 	I say "no" to moderated comp.os.vms.  The whine and smoke and? 	sparks will die down here eventually too.  After all, if thereA? 	was a whole lot of substance to it , it will carry on.  But its 	will die down.   ? >  I'll come and visit, when I've the time. And I do appreciateaH >> your concerns about my career, but I do have dependents, if you thinkI >> I've put their and my futures in any doubt then you really do not knowi  >> me. I'm here (VMS) by choice. >> d > [snip]   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:58:52 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>,( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <GA9g7.347$bB1.27704@news.cpqcorp.net>  1 Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message <>3H >Eh?  What is your point here?  Asking how we plan to solve something is someL >>sort of public embarassment for us?  Or that where I saw the statement wasL >>in another ng?  Or that you think we're full of crap until we give you the >>design specification?u >mG >No.  It was the initial snuffing I got here when I first brought it to  >light.n >h    F I don't think anything was "snuffed" here or anywhere.  You are askingJ questions that we are in the process of designing solutions for.  Nor doesH every engineer working on a IPF solution read/write here... so answeringL your questions in realtime is not easy, nor can it be more that general manyJ times - since the details may not be generally known/understood beyond the engineer working on it.    >eE >>>> lack of Alpha primitives (i.e. use Itanium primitives to make upsK >>>> for Alpha primitives, etc.).  So it appears there isn't a show-stopper   >>>> from a porting perspective. >>>n4 >>>Wait, I'm not done studying the IPF manuals... :) >>>a >> >>E >>Let us know when you're finished, maybe you can save us the work ofp findings >>out why we can't do it.  >-J >I've never indicated that you can or cannot port VMS.  What I'm concernedJ >about is VMS design changes or trade-off because IPF shortcoming.  Yes, II >know user mode code will continue to perform like user mode code.  There I >are lots of third-party apps that rely on inner mode workings -- whethertK >you will or will not consider them supported -- that I fear might be jeop- 	 >ardized.s >e    J VMS has aways reserved the right to change privleged interfaces in a majorH release.  What changes may be necessary for IPF are not yet fully known.? The things to identify in code are likely to be things that areeJ Alpha-specific, or which reach far down into things that are not typicallyL touched by non-OS code (and are today likely to be far different between VAXI and Alpha code).  Code that plays directly with PTE's for instance.  Code H that does explicit LDx_L/STx_C for example.  Code that touches a non-VMS; datastructure (like the HWRPB, or the GCT/FRU for example).n  C As we move forward into the fall, we will know more and more of thehD specifics.  As we get booted, and move towards an SDK, there will beJ specifics documented for what things in inner mode code must be changed or	 examined.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:37:09 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded8 Message-ID: <su52ot42fv7ok0nquirll9hbap4l6r3hd3@4ax.com>  F On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:43:39 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >Nic Clews wrote:e >> fD >> That way they'd be given something more 'productive', walking theK >> streets proclaiming doom and gloom while the rest of us just get on with  >> the job in hand.o >>   >> :-) >e  D Warning I'm going to get quite direct here Nic. I get the impression@ you are a decent person so probably don't deserve some of what'sC coming but I do think you are very naive about Compaq's real future F intentions and don't know how much work I've put into fighting for VMS@ and Alpha over the years. I am bloody, battle-scarred and angry. Disclaimer over...  0 >I'm beginning to sound like a bowl of petunias.  = If we're going to quote the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy:t  D "I'm sorry but your processor has to be destroyed to make way for anC IA64 bypass. What do you mean you haven't seen the plans? They havelD been on display to our Wintel partners in an encrypted NT system forE the last two years in the basement. Can't you read between the lines?r1 Apathetic bloody lot. I don't know why I bother.",   >Alan, Bill, et al;n >oH >I fully appreciate your concerns, but shouting in this newsgroup is not	 >helpful.w  A And back around 1990 when details of the resurrection of Prism asbD Alpha started to leak I was involved with some contract support workD for a company that had VMS versions of most of its products. However< they'd just done a major rewrite (in C) and were consideringD supporting the rewritten version on Alpha (rather than just drop theF VAX port a few years down the line). DEC responded (in confidence so ID couldn't post quotes) that there would be no Alpha port of VMS. ManyF people on hearing similar news kicked up an enormous fuss in this very@ newsgroup and many people suggested we shutup. Customer disquiet helped change DEC's mind.    >pC >While following up some Solaris related stuff, I stumbed across anaG >impression that VMS was dead about 5 years ago, but it would appear tocD >have stemmed from the type of FUD that is being spread in this way.  B 5 years ago DEC were going out of their way to give the impressionB that VMS was dead. You didn't need any FUD. It was DEC who started? using the 'legacy' word to refer to VMS. Nobody else. And a bit F further back when I ordered our first Alpha systems in 1992 (or was itC 1993?) DEC actually phoned me back to check that the order for fivecE DEC 3000-400 systems with VMS was correct. "We thought you would wantrF Unix. Strange that because most people are ordering them with VMS whenF we (sales) were led to believe Unix would dominate. Very shortly afterF this the application (Pro-engineer) for which three of them were to beC utilized dropped VMS support. I asked them why and hey said becausenD DEC told them that they would be driving the Unix market forward not0 the VMS one. I could give many similar examples.   > I >You are NOT doing VMS any favours. I don't know how many systems are are H >involved, with, but through the "Joy of Leveraging" I'm involved in theF >order of 1000's of systems/clusters, and to be frank, I've not really: >got the time to sit around here, I'm actually quite busy.  C Those at the centre are usually shielded from any collapse at firsti  while the periphery takes hits.    >lI >I have spoken to Rich Marcello in a teleconference held for us (ComputerdI >Sciences), and whilst I did not manage to get what he said signed in hisdF >own blood, my personal impression is that he _does_* have a handle onH >things, and he's got a feel for where things are going, and, the future  @ I've spoken at length to  Rich Marcello on two occasions and had@ numerous productive email discussions with him and others. I tooE believe he is honest and wants to see a future for VMS. Without him IeB doubt that Compaq would even be going through the motions of a VMSC port. But be absolutely clear about this: I am sure he has not been C told of any 'hidden' decision to just make the IA64 port quietly gou@ away if at all possible. Heck you don't even minute that sort ofA thing. As for his promotion. Promote someone to head up all AlphaiE systems development and then immediately give them the job of closingi& it down in a controlled manner. Hmm...  G >is good, even if off what may be described as 'the expected path' of aTE >few months ago. It is still forwards. (* And I mean he does know, hee= >knows what architecture is for example, and its futures, andnG >technologies. And no, he didn't have my question list beforehand.) I'maH >afraid I can't really say much more than that, you'll just have to takeH >it on my word. I've had to bite my tongue (fingers) more than once when >posting here. >tF >Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownE >newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneeD >post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I'veH >forgoten). I'll come and visit, when I've the time. And I do appreciate  C Just newgroup it. It's alt after all. I used to run one of the UK's@E largest academic Usenet distribution hubs on VMS. How many major NNTP8C servers run on VMS now? I've had to chase the declining VMS market.:E The last academic VMS system at that university was switched off lastnB month - 25 years after the first DEC-20 was installed there. I canC chase the market a bit further but I can also quite easily dust offiC some ancient Unix skills and, as Bill Todd points out, a lot of the E problems with Unix or lack of functionality have been fixed in recent  years by the major vendors  F >your concerns about my career, but I do have dependents, if you thinkG >I've put their and my futures in any doubt then you really do not knowe >me. I'm here (VMS) by choice. >eD >I've met VMS systems that have the 'capability' to shut down entireC >factories, 100's of jobs lost, many livelihoods affected. 24 x 7 x 0 >365.25. Lose 24 out of that, and it's all over.F >I can assure you that where VMS is concerned in CSC, we do not sleep,F >the leveraged support calls up the resources just as and when they're* >required, regardless of hour or timezone. > E >If you really want to be helpful, then I would suggest you share thepD >messages of positivity with your management, and inspire confidenceG >where it counts. Point out the advantages you know and love over their   > Idiot. Am I getting through to you yet? That's what I did with@ DEC-20/TOPS-20 and later Alpha/NT. I actually pushed an Alpha/NTF solution to replace an Intel/NT solution with my *current* employer. ID had to overcome the fear that Compaq were not committed to Alpha and@ Compaq said all the soothing words and I quoted them. Luckily weF hadn't gone too far down that line when the bomb dropped. However thisB caused us to immediately put on hold an order for $ 500,000 of VMSD hardware, software and storage which could also have potentially ledC to further sales, Rich Marcello personally tele-conferenced with usaD assuring us of the future of Alpha (but I still think Rich is honestB but that's all I'll say here) and I released the order. Then I setC about the harder task of convincing other divisions that Alpha made : sense and that Compaq were totally committed. And then....  F >other systems. You are very articulate with your arguments, I for oneH >don't particularly like the use of your skills against what you say you >believe in [VMS]. >oH >The only thing I agree with you is the marketing. However, the media inG >general is a difficult beast to manage (if you knew anything about thenD >realities of how it works, you'd believe far less than you do now).  > Hahhahahaha. Having run a number of stands at DEC User and DECC Computing and taken advertising in both while they still existed. In? think I know. Having seen Arrick Wilkinson (former DECUS chair) C threatened with legal action by DEC for promoting third party showsw. and publications promoting VMS I think I know.  G >Compaq are making some attempts, but they also have to say things thatrE >are fashionable as well. The right things in the right places to theR@ >right audience. No marketing department has an infinite budget,  ' I don't want infinite I just want fair..     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:55:48 -0500S From: eccm <eccm@swbell.net>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B831124.510F3356@swbell.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > + > "eccm" <eccm@swbell.net> wrote in messagee& > news:3B81B7E8.E57D4933@swbell.net... >  > ...  >  > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > >s > > > <exasperation> > > >h. > > > Well, it's tough to argue at this point: > > >eL > > > Alpha is dead with no viable replacement currently on the market or on > > > the foreseeable horizon. > >sG > > Oh yeah, like the pdp11, vax, and a host of other not-necessesarilyV > > DECompaq machines? > N > *Exactly* like PDP-11s and VAXes:  no longer a competitive platform, and nowH > suited only to 'legacy' use where advancing along with the rest of the > industry is not important. > H > Some people will be perfectly happy with that, and more power to them.M > Others had hoped to see Alpha vigorously developed (to maintain or increasehK > its performance lead) and equally vigorously promoted (to keep its profitaI > healthy and its future secure) - and are now royally pissed at Compaq'shN > unilateral and arbitrary reversal of its frequent and unambiguous statementsK > that Alpha's future viability and performance were things they should bet> > their businesses on. > L > I don't know why it's so hard for people who (for whatever reasons) aren'tL > upset at Compaq to understand why others *are* very upset:  just because aN > platform change may not cause *you* all that much grief doesn't mean it will< > be equally convenient for everyone else (e.g., people withD > impossible-to-port critical applications or to whom performance isN > important).  And *any* port, even if handled optimally, is more work than noM > port at all, and thus an annoyance if it was totally unnecessary (which the-I > evidence strongly suggests is the case, Compaq's lies notwithstanding).e  C I concede porting is inherently an annoyance and costly as well, indF the best of situations. I see that you are concerned about hardware asD well as the O/S and the entanglement of the two. I'm only hung up onA the O/S. As long as the performance, reliability, and security isdC there, I will accept another CPU chipfor VMS, as I did when the VAX<@ was replaced. One thing - will "Vest" be available for the Intel chip?    >  > ...> > L > > > No more Alpha newsletter. Oh, there'll be mention of it in the OpenVMSB > > > Times for a while, but that'll fade, too. History repeats... > >>E > > Change is required to survive. "if a man doesn't change, he dies"  > > (from some western..)e > N > Where you look for words of enlightenment makes your own superficiality moreG > understandable.  Sometimes change is required, sometimes stability isrM > required.  Change for change's sake is usually (though not always) a ratherl > bad idea.t >   A Please don't confuse the ability to find wisdom or wit in unusualgF places with a propensity for superficiality. I don't think it's changeD for it's own sake. The Q has made a decision, for whatever wierd andD ill-explained reason it may be, and I am trying to live with it. I'm= not the kind to get bent easily, but if others wish to, fine.,   > ...h > M > > > The last non-government VMS holdouts are abandoning in droves, with thei< > > > possible exceptions of Cerner and who ever bought SMS. > >tH > > Can you cite numbers and facts? Sure alot of customers are migrating( > > to alternative systems, but not all. > N > Of course not all:  some people will put up with anything to keep using VMS.H > But even if just 'a lot of customers' migrate there is major cause forN > concern, because there is without any shadow of a doubt some threshold levelJ > below which Compaq will cease to continue to develop and support VMS (atJ > least at any reasonable price) - and the casual manner in which it threwL > away a very profitable Alpha business suggests that this threshold may not? > be all the much lower than the current level of VMS business.u >  > ...  > 8 > > > No more platforms + no more newbies = no more VMS. > > >iI > > OpenVMS ported to IVMS (to coin a term) on Itanium + quality hardware, > > + newbies = VMS. > F > Or, VMS sales tank during the *3 years* while it's only available onH > lame-duck hardware with the prospect of having to port the system whenN > hardware with more of a future is finally usable:  no newbies, fewer oldies,1 > Compaq finds it unprofitable, and good-bye VMS.h  % It could happen that way. I hope not.a   > E > > Maybe you're unhappy about things, but taking always publicly the & > > negative side is not constructive. > J > It can be constructive if it warns off people who might otherwise becomeM > lulled (yet again) into one more round of complacency by Compaq's lies.  ItaK > could also be constructive if it resulted in sufficient financial pain ontN > Compaq's part to cause them to rethink their priorities.  At the very least,M > it provides a sorely-needed balance to the bullshit Compaq spread around inmI > attempts to justify its decision on technical and financial grounds andfL > paper over the uncompromisingly definitive nature of the commitments it so > cavalierly broke.  > A If Compaq continues with Alpha, none will be more pleased than I.1D However, I can only see this happening if the Intel product fails toE perform as promised. Perhaps if a large enough majority at Encompass'2F 'Compaq Listens' session voice an opinion in accordance with yours andD that of many others who are pissed off, it might make a difference.    > ...  > N > > > Congratulations Compaq - you won. VMS is now officially dead, outside ofN > > > the government markets you chose for it. (The business schools will haveF > > > to rewrite their text books - instead of the market choosing theN > > > product, the product chose the market. Wonder what Clem Stone or old man( > > > Rockefeller would say about that?) > > > G > > Congratulations Compaq - you won. VMS is now officially going to ben  > > ported to a new archtecture, > N > Would that be just as 'officially' as the Alpha commitments up to June 25th?% > Somehow that's not very reassuring.   F Yeah ok I was poking at David Dachtera. I should not poke at David, it	 was rude.  >  > ...> > : >  I'm being a smart ass because I'm just sick of all this > > FUD. > L > Hey, you sound just like Kerry!  And about as convincing.  While there hasM > been some wholly-understandable but likely excessive paranoia caused by the D > Alpha upheaval, most criticism of Compaq has centered on issues of > substance.  D Kerry? I am Patrick Jankowiak. Whether I'm convincing or not doesn'tC really matter, It's a choice for the reader. At least you were goodi3 enough to take the time to reply with your opinion., > : >  I had to change careers because what I did was becomingK > > obsolesced. If you think it's over, get a head start on the rest of us s& > blind fools who can't see it coming. > J > I can't speak for David, but I couldn't care less about you blind fools:L > you have enough information to make judgements, and if you choose unwiselyJ > that's your problem.  I do, however, think that every statement you makeJ > that might suck *other* people into your foolishness deserves a suitableJ > rejoinder:  if you're sick of the discussion, get the pro-Compaq side to) > shut up, and most of it will evaporate.b  B I chose well according to my own needs and those of some others, ID have no control over the pro-Compaq side, and to descend to implyingE that I am foolish reveals that you are very devout. No fault in that. C If anyone is 'sucked into' my opinion, then that is their business. D Free advice is always worth what is paid for it, and everyone has an# opinion as well as the other item. r  F As for being sick of the FUD (you said 'discussion'), It's my opinion.D I continue to read in spite of annoyances because I am interested in# the computer operating system vms. u   >  > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:18:47 -0500. From: eccm <eccm@swbell.net>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B831687.B60BCC78@swbell.net>  F Well I hope things work out. As for Chicago, I considered it once, butE the cost of living in any dwelling that has a decent roof over it and C where the neighbors don't raise hell all night was beyond the meansqE that were offered for the position. I should not have poked at you inp$ the previous post, and I apologize.   A I am not happy with the upcoming transition to Inhell, but I have F accepted it because I feel that I have no choice in the matter, no wayF to change it. I do, with my family, work to change alot of things (andE this requires alot of concensus and concerted effort by the members),wD but I usually know when a thing is beyond change. I think some of myE family feel the same way. Consensus is we don't like it, but what cansE be done? If enough people stood up at 'Compaq Listens' and rationallypC (no yelling, emotional outbursts, etc) made the many points againsto? the ominous decision, that might be the one thing, other than aeE disastrous failure of the change, which could sway the future. Such ao& failure would be at great cost to VMS.   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > 
 > eccm wrote:  > >aH > > David, you are mistaken in that the the sessions which the DFWCUG isC > > scheduled to present are still on. Please verify details beforen > > spreading FUD. > I > See my response to John Wisniewski. The info. was provided by CETS-2001n > directly, over the telephone.e > H > > This might not be widely known but the only two boxes to survive theJ > > onslaught of over 5000 hackers at DEFCON9 were the DFWCUG's VMS Alpha, > > and a Sun box. > E > I am very aware of that, thank you - it comes as no surprise to me,s/ > either, being a 19+ year verteran of OpenVMS.g > I > > I won't speculate about the merits of the Sun, but I will say that itlJ > > had a sysadmin present 24 hours a day for the entire event, as well asH > > a secondary system which did nothing but monitor attacks on the box. > >eJ > > As for the VMS system, we turned it on, basically left it alone exceptH > > when we wanted to look at it, and slept and drank through the event, > > without a care.C > = > Not sure how that is germane to the subject at hand, but...  >  > >  > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > >  > > > <exasperation> > > > . > > > Well, it's tough to argue at this point: > > >eL > > > Alpha is dead with no viable replacement currently on the market or on > > > the foreseeable horizon. > >eG > > Oh yeah, like the pdp11, vax, and a host of other not-necessesarilyeH > > DECompaq machines? These systems have traditionally gone on in their( > > useful and critical tasks for years. > H > I dare say that people spec.'ing such systems for new acquisitions andA > installations constitutes extremely rare circumstances, if suchM > situations occur at all. > $ > > There's a chip fab I can't name,H > > that was until last week, running a microvax II which controlled theJ > > wafer-level testing of the chips. The machine died, and what happened?H > > a compadre and I took the RD54's and stuck them one at a time into aI > > cluster-booted diskless microvax II and backed them up to 4mm DAT fore/ > > the nice man. So, VAX isn't dead after all.h > G > Are these plants specifying VAX processors for new fab-line installs?e >  > > How can Alpha be? It willn, > > be years before Alpha is no longer used. > C > "Dead" and "no longer used" are two related, but hardly congruenteH > paradigms. IBM System/360's are still used, but are largely consideredJ > "dead" for those spec.'ing out new installs. I dare say the same is true> > for PDP, DG-Nova, 80386, and others too numerous to mention. >  > > There will be transitions, > I > Not this time - not like VAX -> Alpha. As far as the market at large isnE > concerned, Alpha is *DEAD*. Period - end of statement. This is trues@ > because Compaq shot their big mouth off instead of handling it. > identically to the VAX - > Alpha transition. > G > The horse is several counties away already. Too late now to close theo > barn!e >  > > and speedbumps on the road,m > F > ...assuming the road is still there at all. In the current case, theB > road ended when Compaq shot their mouth off about EOL-ing Alpha. > ) > Dead-end, end of story, over and out...h > - > > but the situation is not as gloomy as thek > > image you present. > G > I've said it before and I'll say it again: Come to Chicago and walk aiJ > mile in my shoes. When you return to your own circumstance, you may find* > your paradigm has shifted significantly. > L > > > No more Alpha newsletter. Oh, there'll be mention of it in the OpenVMSB > > > Times for a while, but that'll fade, too. History repeats... > > E > > Change is required to survive. "if a man doesn't change, he dies"  > > (from some western..)s > F > Change is generally considered to be a move forward. This is a giant > step backward. > C > VAX -> Alpha was both a logical evolution and a relatively smooth G > transition. Alpha -> nothing -> IPF is the fattest crock of dung I'venE > seen in rather a long time. See my reply to Jeff Killeen at anotherh > branch in this thread. >  > > >a > > > No more CI clusters. > >tC > > That's an issue of modernization. CI is very cool and holy, but D > > somewhat dated and not necessary for new systems due to improvedG > > methods available from Compaq's modern system architecture. How can G > > you kow there won't be a solution available for the legacy systems?  > E > Show me supported CI interconnect for Q-bus systems, or a supportede4 > shared SCSI for any VAX system... Need I say more? > E > Also, have you not read recent literature from the Q and subsequentr@ > posts here about HSJs and HSZs being EOL'd effective Jan-2002? >  > > > No more SCSI clusters. > > # > > What proof do you have of this?a >  > David J. Dachtera wrote:G > > Also, have you not read recent literature from the Q and subsequent B > > posts here about HSJs and HSZs being EOL'd effective Jan-2002? > ' > > SCSI clustering has more to do withi; > > the glue chips and O/S on the system than with the CPU.  >  > ...and your point is...g >  > > >rM > > > The last non-government VMS holdouts are abandoning in droves, with thew< > > > possible exceptions of Cerner and who ever bought SMS. > >iH > > Can you cite numbers and facts? Sure alot of customers are migrating( > > to alternative systems, but not all. > I > DOCUMENTED numbers and facts? No. Outside of the Q, who can?  ...and doe, > you believe for one moment that they will? > J > The posts in this newsgroup are documentation enough. VMS can ill affordB > to lose any ground whatsoever (though no one but me (apparently)9 > believes that); so, one site lost is one site too many.o > N > > > No VMS newbie sessions at CETS-2001. I hear even Wayne Sauer's venerableF > > > performance and management sessions got bumped. No DFW stuff was) > > > accepted, either, from what I hear.  > >p > > already answered.i >  > ...and documented. > 8 > > > No more platforms + no more newbies = no more VMS. > > >dI > > OpenVMS ported to IVMS (to coin a term) on Itanium + quality hardwarea > > + newbies = VMS. > H > __W_H_E_N__, DAMNIT, __W_H_E_N__ ??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > G > Show me *ONE*, __J_U_S_T__ __O_N_E__ ready-for-prime-time, productionuI > quality, fully debugged and certified, OpenVMS-IPF system in productionaG > on a customer site, and do it BEFORE CETS-2001 !! (I was going to sayiH > enterprise-class customer, but I'm willing to bend on that one point.) >  > Get it *NOW* ??? > H > Show me *ONE*, __J_U_S_T__ __O_N_E__ successful, thriving, decades-old@ > business that was built and survives to this day entirely upon > vaporware. > H > (Thanx to Dale Carnegie, I know of exactly one, but I'm not tipping my > hand just yet!)  > E > > Maybe you're unhappy about things, but taking always publicly thea& > > negative side is not constructive. > E > ...and sitting idly by while Compaq destroys VMS *IS* constructive?h > 5 > On what planet? Not this one, that's for DAMN sure!t > % > > How do you think I feel? They aret! > > making me take unix training!- > D > Do you have *ANY* idea how many of us out here would *JUMP* at theE > chance to get trained/certified on *ANY* non-VMS platform? ConsidersD > yourself fortunate that you don't have to move your family into anI > abandoned school bus just to afford the damn courses, or sell your soul9G > to the devil just the save the roof over family's head, the beds they F > sleep in and the food in their bellies just so you can redirect your > career before they starve. > I > Get *REAL* clear on this: life may beautiful where you are, but some ofaG > out here are LITERALLY STARVING TO DEATH!!! ...trying to survive with G > the skills we have, not to mention skills we can't afford to acquire.a > ' > > (actually, unix is kind of easy buta > > quite bizzarre)  > G > Of course - there's almost nothing there (in UN*X) to start with. How ! > complex can next to nothing be?b > 8 > > I work in what is mostly a Sun and Intel engineeringH > > environment, but all the stuff in my company, that, were it to break6 > > would cost millions and cause damage, runs on VMS. > I > Surprise of surprises - the healthcare industry is no different, excepteG > that where we "live", lives hang on every machine cycle (well, a goodn > number of them, anyway). >  > > They run the sunD > > and intel in the cheap seats, and the VMS in the space where theI > > degree of departure from desired reality is counted in hard currency.r > $ > ...or people's lives, in our case. > N > > > Congratulations Compaq - you won. VMS is now officially dead, outside ofN > > > the government markets you chose for it. (The business schools will haveF > > > to rewrite their text books - instead of the market choosing theN > > > product, the product chose the market. Wonder what Clem Stone or old man( > > > Rockefeller would say about that?) > > >yG > > Congratulations Compaq - you won. VMS is now officially going to bes  > > ported to a new archtecture, > I > Yeah - when Intel reaps the benefits of acquiring the Alpha engineeringlA > folks and materials. Until then, IPF remains a proof-of-concepthJ > protoype, beta-quality, early-adopter stuff, at best, and a dream at the
 > very least.A > @ > Go out and try to sell *THAT* against, Slowaris, NT, UN*X, ... > ; > > Just forget it. Take two xanax, get a hobbyist license,l > . > I have two of 'em, thank you, VAX and Alpha. >  > > and call me inH > > the morning. I'm being a smart ass because I'm just sick of all this > > FUD. > F > Good! ...because there's a bunch of us, who I do not even presume toI > speak for, who are equally sick of all this fucking bullshit coming out  > of Compaq. > I > Understand this: compared to the kind of shit that's gone down the lastiB > couple of months, I have FIRED PEOPLE - ON *TWO* (count 'em: NA,I > GB/Europe) continents - for less reason than all this. If I were in anyhJ > position to have anything to say about it, the people responsible would,J > in turn, be making trips to the emergency room to have my boot extracted4 > from their posterior - each and every one of them! > J > ...and then we'd go on to double VMS's market share EVERY QUARTER for soG > many quarters that within two years Bill Gates would be begging us tot > buy HIM out! > ; > > I had to change careers because what I did was becominguJ > > obsolesced. If you think it's over, get a head start on the rest of usH > > blind fools who can't see it coming. You are in a unique position toH > > take advantage of this Alpha-Intel situation, being a consultant and > > all. > F > Well, folks here will still remember a post I made toward the end ofG > last year where in I announced that I expected to be quitting the EDP  > field shortly. > G > I am now *DOUBLY* motivated to make that happen as soon as is humanlyp > possible.  >  > -- > David J. Dachterao > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 20:02:06 -0700- From: afeldman@gfigroup.com (Alan E. Feldman) ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded= Message-ID: <af1e4ce6.0108201902.522b90b0@posting.google.com>e  W "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message news:<9lrhko$gc3$1@pyrite.mv.net>...h< > "Alan E. Feldman" <afeldman@gfigroup.com> wrote in message9 > news:af1e4ce6.0108200449.582e380d@posting.google.com...d >  > ...o > - > > Similarly, I'd write to Compaq explainingr > > what VMS can do for them.r > >bJ > > I find that I get much better responses from companies when I complainJ > > to them in a civil manner. I usually get something material in return,> > > like coupons for their product, or free replacement parts. > K > Been there, did that.  An international group of over a dozen of us spenteF > months creating just such a presentation in H1 2000, presented it toN > Capellas, got bounced to Marcello, had a meeting with him and his staff, got> > encouraging words about VMS's future and some nice VMS pens.  D Thank you for your efforts! But, if you had cursed at Compaq, calledB them stupid, and worse things in your presentation, certainly that" would have made things only worse.   > N > After enough tries with the carrot, you either give up or get out the stick.  E Well, if you have a big enough stick it would work. Someone mentioned E something about getting a piece on a financial news show about CompaqPE wasting the opportunity to make some big profits from VMS, both shortiF term and long term. Might work, but their stock is down to 13.98 whichE is very close to the 52-week low of 13.20, which is less than half ofgC their 52-week high! So there is already diminishing confidence from C stock holders. Of course, the stock holders may not know about VMS.w Ramble ramble. Whatever.  F Well, I certainly do hope for a bright future for VMS. If you can help" bring it about, more power to you.  E Hey, if the stock price keeps going down, maybe some company will buy 0 Compaq! Don't know if that would be good or not.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmant afeldman@gfigroup.com      >  > - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2001 22:04:01 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <kfTnZgkcPwUH@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  \ In article <3B81A89C.D0B75363@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > John McLean wrote:I >> Why does Compaq set its goals so low when it has stated elsewhere thatcH >> the move to IPF will increase the availability of applications ?  Why- >> should porting be a difficult operation ? r > N > Consider VMS' remaining customers. Recompiling the application isn't enough.L > Before they install it in production, they will want the vendor to certifyK > that the application will run on the new platform. This also requires the X > vendor to continue to support and certify their application on the previous platforms. >   A 	This isn't the way it works in the real world.  The way it worksb> 	is the vendor supports both VAX and Alpha VMS.  From personal? 	experience, the way a migration is done is to plug Alphas intoh? 	your existing VAX CI-based cluster.  (Don't have a CI cluster? ? 	This example doesn't apply to you.  Other examples will and wer, 	can reflect on those later).  Now of courseA 	you took the time to test in your test cluster prior to stickingf@ 	Alphas in your production cluster.  (Don't have a test cluster?> 	This example doesn't apply to you.... you get the idea here).A 	Alpha is performing up to snuff?  Stick another one in next weeka 	and unplug a VAX.  @ 	Fast forward 3 years out.  Your vendor supports both Alpha and = 	IPF binaries.  Plug an IPF box into your SAN.  SCS is flyingi! 	over Fibre (or Infiniband), etc.w   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:41:49 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B81D87A.B620F6C0@videotron.ca>   eccm wrote:-F > well as the O/S and the entanglement of the two. I'm only hung up onC > the O/S. As long as the performance, reliability, and security isDE > there, I will accept another CPU chipfor VMS, as I did when the VAX  > was replaced.   M But when VMS became available for Alpha, you had full confidence that DigitaliK would built alpha based machines with VMS in mind and with quality and true L enterprise stuff in mind. And you knew that Alpha had been designed with VMSN in mind, and that the machines had traditional basics such as MOP booting from
 ethernet etc.h  A Compaq has released very little information.  But in their murder N announcement, part of the justification was the streamlining of product lines.M And with absorbtion of the VMS-Unix groups by the wintel server group, I fearsM that it is the wintel folks who will dictate the features of the servers witha' the VMS folks having to adapt to those.t  G Do you really trust the wintel folks for whom an enterprise server is aoH glorified desktop wintel box fitted in a 19" rack, with a drawer for theM keyboard and mouse and the monitor above it ? Do you really trust these folkssD to change the design of their systems to provide the stuff that real& enterprise folks on VMS want to have ?  M The CPU itself, well, the VMS engineers will find ways around its limitationsaJ and make VMS run on in. But are you happy being told that from now on, VMSN will run on servers designed to run windows instead of servers designed to run$ serous OS in a serious environment ?  J I realise that things may not be as bad. But there are no indications fromN Compaq either way. So if you judge Compaq's past record, it is not far fetchedL to state that Compaq will continue to be wintel server focused and it is VMSE that will downgrade itself to run on servers designed to run windows.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:46:28 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <3B81D991.25453365@videotron.ca>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:G > Hey, if the stock price keeps going down, maybe some company will buyd2 > Compaq! Don't know if that would be good or not.  L Wouldn't it be a riot if Ken Olson were to buy Compaq , ditch all the wintel3 crap and focus on VMS from desktop to data centre ?   K I would hope that Olson would feed Capellas and Winkler to the woolves, andp% allow us to throw tomatoes at Palmer.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:06:03 -0400e( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B81EC3B.D54D0FE@bigfoot.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > > over-the-top rhetoric.  Why not start calling us baby killers?  Nazi's?  > > Abortionists?  Pedophiles? > N > Wow, a pro-abortion pedophile nazi baby killer in the VMS engineering group.L > Have you considered going to those TV talk shows like Jerry Springer ? You. > might make more money there than at Compaq ! > J > Is your wife a vegetarian lesbian islamic transsexual and you met in theC > police truck after having been arrested at a pro-abortion rally ?d > M > It is good to know that there are still some colourful people at Compaq :-)   ? After a hard day's work, I needed a laugh.  Thanks JF, that waso	 precious.    HM   ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 10:14:38 +200' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)e/ Subject: RE: The VMS Opensource Porting Projectr, Message-ID: <9l055g$25pm$1@kiosk.rzg.mpg.de>  + In Article <9ku76o$2ggt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>.3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:s  H >And, on another note, I am trying to gather sources of information theyF >are likely to need.  In the heat of the last discussion a book named,E >"UNIX OpenVMS Compatibility book" was mentioned.  Does anyone have a-C >copy of this book they would be willing to send me??  (Hoff, is itAH >perhaps available from Compaq??)  Are there any other books that peopleI >could send here that I could put into the department library for the useaK >of students doing these ports??  Anybody have URLs of sites with info thatl >might prove usefull??   Have a look at o     O       http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/products/interop/vms_unix/html/index.htmle  T Also there was an earlier one in 1994 "OpenVMS and DEC OSF/1 Interoperability Guide"0 (Order No EC-N3399-43), but don't see it online.   -- sI This message does not represent the policies of the Max-Planck-Institute.nB Joseph "Sepp" Huber, MPI Physik, http://wwwvms.mppmu.mpg.de/~huber   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:31:41 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m( Subject: Re: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on8 Message-ID: <2l02ot01u1pm18da0b4vv9vamjp7j06fvk@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:17:37 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>v wrote:   >d3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message 3 >news:mpupntkgmu19llkp0eekvto7h7qfcrihio@4ax.com...w >. >... >aH >> Just in the last week or so pre-built binaies have been made availbleD >> for WIndows and the emulator claims to be able to compile and run* >> under VMS but I haven't tried that yet. >aB >Now see if you can get a copy of the VAX emulator to run on it...  D That would be quite amusing. Hmm. An Alpha running a PDP-10 emulatorF running the original VAX emulator. Who would even have this code today	 I wonder?n   >- billr >w >> --s >> Alanm >v   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:28:44 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>oG Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 8 Message-ID: <ae02otkn9otht6kpbidfi3gb0kfon43u1u@4ax.com>  @ On 19 Aug 2001 18:12:30 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > D >Well please let us know how those activities we don't know anythingE >about work out.  But certainly bothering the rest of us with putting   C I've talked to several senior Compaq managers in the last few weeksrC and some of that has been reported here. What I haven't reported isbB in-confidence information and some of that is even more depressing$ than the info given publicly so far.  H >doom-and-gloom posts into comp.os.vms does not reach Compaq management,   Oh but a lot of it does.  H >so please cut out _that_ part of your activity and get to the real work >you have in mind.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:12:09 +1200e? From: "Process Computing Dept" <o'connor.michael.ms@bhp.com.au>E1 Subject: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use?a3 Message-ID: <9lrqup$p92$2@netman.nzsakl.bhp.com.au>y  L I have just rescued some old DEC gear from our store room where it was aboutI to be trashed. I wanted a VMS workstation, compatible (more or less) with - our production Alphas, to use as a test unit.   G I pulled out an old VAXstation 4000 VLC, a nice size for the desktop, aeH RRD24 external CD ROM, a TLZ06 external tape drive, and a VT420 terminalG (plugged into the printer port), powered them up - found that all stilllL worked. There was almost no free space left on the 225MB disk in the VAX, soK I changed it for a 1GB disk found in an abandoned Sun workstation. With VMSmJ 7.2 in the CD, the OS installed sweetly on the new drive, so now I have my off-line development computer.  K But (of course there is a but, nothing is free :-) ) this VAX has only 16MBpI RAM, so I have not installed DECwindows, and the VT420 is a bit limiting.FK The console is not recognized as a terminal. It is also soooo slow comparedIK to the Alphas. I did notice in our junk room, though, two VAX 4000-50 and ahH R400X (raid?) which could be cannibalized for their RAM. I have not beenF able to open any of those cases because they are piled high with junk.  J My question is: can I use memory from the VAX 4000-50 in the 4000 VLC? How4 much do I need to get decent DECwindows performance?   Regards, Michael O'Connor   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:27:54 GMTi2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)5 Subject: Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use? 2 Message-ID: <epeg7.400$bB1.28246@news.cpqcorp.net>  u In article <9lrqup$p92$2@netman.nzsakl.bhp.com.au>, "Process Computing Dept" <o'connor.michael.ms@bhp.com.au> writes:n+ :I pulled out an old VAXstation 4000 VLC...e  D   It was a nice box, but its enclosure size and cooling, and its CPU(   performance (at 6 VUPs) constrains it.  H :My question is: can I use memory from the VAX 4000-50 in the 4000 VLC?   H   Nope.  The VLC uses fairly normal 72pin SIMMs installed in pairs, and A   is limited to 24MB.  The MS40 part number was the memory, IIRC.y  G   The (comparatively rare) VAX 4000 model 50 used 128MB memory modules,oE   and was typically (more than) triple the performance of the VLC (atL   20 VUPs).V  9 :How much do I need to get decent DECwindows performance?a  7   As much (memory) as you can get installed, of course.   K   You could set up a network, and effectively drive the DECwindows display  K   remotely; you could run the applications on the VAX 4000 model 50 and usee   the VAXstation as a display.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:32:03 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)e Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ?o0 Message-ID: <3b81a9f4.16006355@news.wcc.govt.nz>  1 On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:36:45 -0400, "Main, Kerry". <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:   >Howard, >MB >There are a number of Customers using OpenVMS V7.3 in prod today. >c >Reference:(M >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/ (and they havet- >been running VMS V7.3 for quite awhile now).u >cL >Having stated this, there are patches for VMS V7.3 that resolve some issues >under specific conditions - g9 >http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtmlo >sF >The decision to upgrade is typically made on specific new features orJ >additional performance requirements. When an upgrade is planned, applyingK >the latest patches that the system manager deems to be applicable to theirt; >environment are also usually part of that upgrade process.t   Kerry,  F Not always, the need to upgrade is often driven because you cannot get support for earlier releases.c? Look at the comments here when a problem is reported for an old ? version of the software, one of the usual recommendations is toI upgrade.   > M >>>> And I've tried to upgrade a 7.2-1 system with NO patches (other than thee* >MUP) and the upgrade failed every time.<< >cK >Just out of curiosity, but there is an upgrade issue that is documented iniM >the cover letter that came with OpenVMS V7.3. Is this the same issue you had  >or a different one? N >WL >Fwiw, I've personally upgraded 2 systems from VMS V7.2-1 (and they both had7 >a number of 7.2-1 patches) to VMS V7.3 with no issues.t   My 2 cents worth...iC I've upgraded a couple of test boxes, 1 Alpha on 7.2-1 and 1 VAX onmB 7.2 I'd already been appraised of the potential images problem and< applied the appropriate patch. Each upgrade had no problems.  @ Compaq's Aussie web site has a clear layout of Patches and theirD level,  I frequently reference this and try and keep up to date with@ all the Level 1 Patches. I review others and apply if conditions warrant it.   F I'd gues the MUP referred to is the one issued with the 7.2 (or 7.2-1)- distribution which must be pretty old by now.v  D And, as always, I'd wait for a while to see what serious issues comeB out of the woodwork for the latest release. 7.3 does not seemed to) have generated a lot of serious concern. a   Rob. >d	 >Regards,t >  >Kerry Maini >Senior Consultant >Compaq Canada Corp. >Professional Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax  :  819-772-7036  >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com  >  >t >-----Original Message-----// >From: Howard S Shubs [mailto:howard@shubs.net]  >Sent: August 19, 2001 10:13 PMu >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ? >: >-7 >In article <1010819212111.14122B-100000@Ives.egh.com>,j# > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:  >s6 >> Whether to upgrade yet depends on the usual issues. > M >Yes.  All I can say is that if I can't upgrade, the update is useless to me.m >eM >USELESS.  TO.  ME.  And I've tried to upgrade a 7.2-1 system with NO patches1 >eG >(other than the MUP) and the upgrade failed every time.  Let me say itl >again: L >USELESS!  And it has -file corruption-??  When was the last time -DEC- had M >this kind of problem?  I figure that Compaq's QA and field tests have failedc >lK >fatally.  What a nasty fall.  File corruption!  Inablility to upgrade frome >the uB >most recent (shy of 7.2-1H1) version of the system!  Inexcusable. >--  >Howard S Shubs E >"Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"2   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:28:20 -0400t' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>o Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ?m< Message-ID: <howard-3C1422.08281620082001@enews.newsguy.com>  6 In article <1010820011433.14122A-100000@Ives.egh.com>,"  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:  J > But if you haven't installed any 7.2-1 ECO's, that shouldn't affect you.   Correct.    H > There have also been battles waged (forever, it seems) between certainG > layered products, mostly compilers, and VMS for control of the objecti! > libraries and shareable images.   0 True.  Ran into that during the VMS 5.1 upgrade.    9 > on my V7.1 VAX finds 3 different ECOs that address diskd5 > corruption issues, VAXMOUN05_071, VAXRMS02_071, and ? > VAXSHAD08_071.  So I think is is more common and has a longeri > history than you suspect.n  	 Could be.c    C > Like I said, I think it is okay for hobbyist and test/developmentrC > systems right now, but I would hold off on production systems for F > another few months, unless I really, really needed some new feature.  K I'm doing a set of upgrades which can only happen every 3 to 5 years.  I'm iO having to go with 7.2-1H1 instead of 7.3.  It could be worse.  I could have to rH stick with 7.1 as we're currently running.  Only my test machine is/was  running 7.2-1, y'see.     / > Always have good backups before upgrading ;-):  K Of course.  Did the upgrade on a spare disk on a test machine.  And a good e thing, too.a -- e Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:32:21 -0400t' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>l Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ?f< Message-ID: <howard-E344F7.08322120082001@enews.newsguy.com>   In article oG <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4D495B4@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>,.-  "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:w  M > Having stated this, there are patches for VMS V7.3 that resolve some issuesr > under specific conditions - : > http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtml  O I'm sure.  But to apply patches requires that one can get the system to run at e all.    G > The decision to upgrade is typically made on specific new features orpK > additional performance requirements. When an upgrade is planned, applyingVL > the latest patches that the system manager deems to be applicable to their< > environment are also usually part of that upgrade process.  > Applying patches that are not clearly needed is irresponsible.    L > Just out of curiosity, but there is an upgrade issue that is documented inN > the cover letter that came with OpenVMS V7.3. Is this the same issue you had > or a different one?   N Only patch applied was the MUP, which is not relevant to what is mentioned in  the cover letter.p    M > Fwiw, I've personally upgraded 2 systems from VMS V7.2-1 (and they both hadi8 > a number of 7.2-1 patches) to VMS V7.3 with no issues.  0 So they're assuming certain patches.  Wonderful. -- 4 Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:29:49 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>  Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ? < Message-ID: <howard-C1D25B.08294820082001@enews.newsguy.com>  * In article <3B80BC8A.6000504@tzora.co.il>,,  Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il> wrote:  E > As a recommendation - Even if you decide not to install patches, att: > least skim the release notes to see what you're missing.   Upgrade system wasn't live.  -- p Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:03:02 -0400e' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>n Subject: Re: where is 7.3 ?e< Message-ID: <howard-78F89C.21030220082001@enews.newsguy.com>  0 In article <3b81a9f4.16006355@news.wcc.govt.nz>,+  rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) wrote:a  H > Not always, the need to upgrade is often driven because you cannot get > support for earlier releases.d  I Yes, that's our problem.  Some industries don't upgrade for long periods  I because of the pain of upgrading everything.  The main reason it finally wB happens is because of loss of support of some piece of the system.    E > I've upgraded a couple of test boxes, 1 Alpha on 7.2-1 and 1 VAX oneD > 7.2 I'd already been appraised of the potential images problem and> > applied the appropriate patch. Each upgrade had no problems.  O It occurs to me that this may be a CPU-specific issue.  I'm upgrading an Alpha i 2100.o    H > I'd gues the MUP referred to is the one issued with the 7.2 (or 7.2-1)/ > distribution which must be pretty old by now.i  1 Well, yeah.  Is there any other related to 7.2-1?r -- o Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:29:09 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)M Subject: Re: www.cets2001.com comments (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)62 Message-ID: <VFcg7.384$bB1.27932@news.cpqcorp.net>   In article <y4pu9qellq.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:> :There is absolztely no reason such a site would need cookies.  L   Sites often use cookies to maintain search context over visits.  While it L   not and should not be (IMNSHO) a requirement of a site, cookies are often H   viewed as a convenience to the users.  I will certainly not defend anyF   (non-ecommerce) website that require cookies be enabled for correct L   operation, given that I tend to clean out my cookie cache daily and given .   that I normally deny default cookie storage.  J   That said, please provide your suggestion to the website folks directly.M   The folks may or may not review the newsgroup.  Most don't.  Most probably aL   would not look for www.cets2001.com website feedback under the "The Final K   Knell Has Sounded" subject, too.  (I've changed that subject, obviously.)e  J   Oh, and and after posting that note, I've started to have problems with    the searches at that website.o  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:17:57 +02002  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>  Subject: Re: XFC - ECO available+ Message-ID: <VA.00000428.3126c7c0@sture.ch>5  D In article <MGwLBJuIBR2M@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Rob Young wrote:- > Note to XFC interested parties on cov . . .  > A >  I noticed on Eisner today where XFC ECO has been released.  Ito >  is available on DSN.  > . > VMS73_XFC-V0100 (Alpha V7.3) XFC ECO Summary > 	 >     RobO >V
 Or by ftp at:y  3 http://ftp1.support.compaq.com/public/vms/axp/v7.3/i  ( Also new today is vms73_fibre_scsi-v0100   ___s
 Paul Sture Switzerlandf   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.463 ************************