1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 22 Aug 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 466       Contents: Re: 4000-90 Console Commands Re: 4000-90 Console Commands Re: 4000-90 Console Commands RE: 4000-90 Console Commands* Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity?# Alpha ECU - Does it work from a CD? ' Re: Alpha ECU - Does it work from a CD?  Re: BIG cluster problem  Choose IBM...? Re: Choose IBM...? Re: Good VMS news . GTK and VMS: current status and future plans ? Re: Help with DCL  Re: Help with DCL  Re: Help with DCL  IA64-VMS porting of CA products + Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen? + Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen? + Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen? + Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen? H Re: Migration towards commodity HW (was Ultra 160 SCSI for OpenVMS AlphaJ Migration towards commodity HW (was Ultra 160 SCSI for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3) Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: Move to Sun  Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 5 Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...) 5 Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...)  ODS-5 and parse_style & Re: Printing in different output trays& Re: Printing in different output trays Re: Printing Through A Firewall  Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  STl Port on AXP  Re: STl Port on AXP  Re: Take it elsewhere  Re: Take it elsewhere  Re: Take it elsewhere  RE: Take it elsewhere  Re: Take it elsewhere  Re: Take it elsewhere A Re: The Alpha Systems Customer Update will no longer be published A Re: The Alpha Systems Customer Update will no longer be published  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded  UCX LPD printing problems $ Re: UNIX on an AlphaServer 800 5/333$ Re: UNIX on an AlphaServer 800 5/333= Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared A Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared A Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared J Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared - SOLVED Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery Re: VMS jobs???  VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ? # Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning.... 0 Wailing at Eunuchs (was: Wailing and Moaning...) Re: What cooler name than VAX? Re: What cooler name than VAX?P Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell P Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell P Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell M Who owns the DECterm fonts (and what public sources exist for replacements ?) P Re: Who owns the DECterm fonts (and what public sources exist for replacements ?  Re: ZLX2-E (TGA2) dial settings?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 02:56:16 -0700: From: extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de (Karl Rohwedder)% Subject: Re: 4000-90 Console Commands = Message-ID: <2865b31a.0108220156.1ee14053@posting.google.com>   5 It looks as if a console password is set and enabled. B You have to LOGN to the console to issue other commands tham BOOT. If the passwords is lost...   r "Barry Streets" <berrys2552@home.com> wrote in message news:<wdHg7.27367$P15.14660438@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>...M > I just got a used 4000-90 VAXstation and although it boots fine, I can't do M > any commands from the console prompt; (>>>). When I type anything like SHOW < > BOOT; SHOW DEVICE; SET BOOT DKA300, it comes back Ill cmd. > N > Is there any jumpers or switch settings to change to enable the console????? >  > Barry Streets  > Echo Group   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:16:49 +0100 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>% Subject: Re: 4000-90 Console Commands 8 Message-ID: <n257otg0qi9lthc9u6n6gf5t8rn6jiuehi@4ax.com>  H On 22 Aug 2001 02:56:16 -0700, extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de (Karl Rohwedder) wrote:   6 >It looks as if a console password is set and enabled.C >You have to LOGN to the console to issue other commands tham BOOT.  >If the passwords is lost...  F There are a couple of small solder "pads" on the motherboard - connectG these with a wire and switch on.  Google group search should turn up an B article where this trick is mentioned (it may even be in the FAQ).     	John    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:49:46 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)% Subject: Re: 4000-90 Console Commands 2 Message-ID: <uwQg7.542$bB1.29860@news.cpqcorp.net>  m In article <wdHg7.27367$P15.14660438@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Barry Streets" <berrys2552@home.com> writes: L :I just got a used 4000-90 VAXstation and although it boots fine, I can't doL :any commands from the console prompt; (>>>). When I type anything like SHOW; :BOOT; SHOW DEVICE; SET BOOT DKA300, it comes back Ill cmd.   2   Try the HELP command, see if that command works.  F   Do the settings of the (I assume) serial console terminal match the E   settings suggested in the OpenVMS FAQ?  (Or is this the workstation    console?)   L   What is the KA-class CPU code displayed that is when the system powers up?J   (You should see a KA49-*, see the FAQ for details.  If you do NOT see a J   KA49 code, well, you do not have a VAXstation 4000 model 90 series box.)  M :Is there any jumpers or switch settings to change to enable the console?????   G   No, but various of these systems did have a console password setting.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:11:48 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>% Subject: RE: 4000-90 Console Commands - Message-ID: <0033000033014194000002L042*@MHS>   + =0A ?ILL CMD for any input sure sounds like !  the console password is enabled.     WWWebb    > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET + > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:55 AM F > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET' > Subject: RE: 4000-90 Console Commands  >  >  > In articleF > <wdHg7.27367$P15.14660438@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Barry Streets": > <berrys2552@home.com> writes: :I just got a used 4000-90 > VAXstation and although  > it boots fine, I can't do ; > :any commands from the console prompt; (>>>). When I type  > anything like SHOW= > :BOOT; SHOW DEVICE; SET BOOT DKA300, it comes back Ill cmd.  > 4 >   Try the HELP command, see if that command works. > H >   Do the settings of the (I assume) serial console terminal match the=  H >   settings suggested in the OpenVMS FAQ?  (Or is this the workstation=  
 >   console?)  > < >   What is the KA-class CPU code displayed that is when the > system powers up? > >   (You should see a KA49-*, see the FAQ for details.  If you > do NOT see a? >   KA49 code, well, you do not have a VAXstation 4000 model 90  > series box.) > > > :Is there any jumpers or switch settings to change to enable > the console????? > 7 >   No, but various of these systems did have a console  > password setting.  >  > 2 >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> > ----------------------------- 5 >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --  > www.openvms.compaq.com4 >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion > --------------------------- 1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering  > hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:37:42 -0400 - From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> 3 Subject: Re: Alpha -> Itanium: Binary compatiblity? 2 Message-ID: <P5Sg7.14844$Z2.175088@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:zw7g7.326$bB1.27272@news.cpqcorp.net...K > I'm sure it will be.  The goal here is to port everything.  There will be F > exceptions, for example if it was already being retired on VAX _and_ Alpha. > ...   G Please tell me that Compaq Analyze is not on the list and that DECevent  and/or ANALZYE/ERROR is/are.   -- Peter WeaverJ Using a WIN NT/WIN 2000 box to manage your VMS systems is like towing your7 mechanic in a 5th wheel motor home behind your Porsche.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:17:53 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>, Subject: Alpha ECU - Does it work from a CD?) Message-ID: <3B83DB31.5D0C5A74@127.0.0.1>   G Before I make a coaster on our CD burner, does anyone know if this will  work?   G Scenario is a GS140 that does not have a floppy drive, and we're adding 2 a second PCI card cage which we need to configure.  < So we want to >>> RUNECU and it fire up off the CD. Somehow.  ) Anyone tried it, got a better suggestion?   D If there's nothing forthcoming, we'll wing it and report the results here.   D If we have a coaster, I'll sent to to the person that posts the best joke. % (We need a little humour around here)   A Incidentally, I know that ECU is EISA CONFIGURATION UTILITY and I F mentioned a PCI card cage, but I may have misunderstood/misinterpretedD the requirement that dropped on my desk, any words of wisdom equallyF accepted, debugging the requirement may also be part of this solution.G (Having said that I've also had the requirement of running ECU on a box : with a duff floppy, so I'm still interested in this path).  ) In anticipation, thank you for your time.  --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:24:56 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 0 Subject: Re: Alpha ECU - Does it work from a CD?2 Message-ID: <qVRg7.556$bB1.30086@news.cpqcorp.net>  H My offhand guess is that it will work if you can make the CD look like aI MSDOS formatted floppy.  But who knows?  I'm gonna guess that nobody here D ever tried to do it, and the one guy who I think might know works at IntraServer.  J When you do and don't have to run the ECU has always been a great mystery.; Don't know if adding a PCI cage will force the need or not.    _Fred   ; Nic Clews wrote in message <3B83DB31.5D0C5A74@127.0.0.1>... H >Before I make a coaster on our CD burner, does anyone know if this will >work? > H >Scenario is a GS140 that does not have a floppy drive, and we're adding3 >a second PCI card cage which we need to configure.  > = >So we want to >>> RUNECU and it fire up off the CD. Somehow.  > * >Anyone tried it, got a better suggestion? > E >If there's nothing forthcoming, we'll wing it and report the results  >here. > E >If we have a coaster, I'll sent to to the person that posts the best  >joke.& >(We need a little humour around here) > B >Incidentally, I know that ECU is EISA CONFIGURATION UTILITY and IG >mentioned a PCI card cage, but I may have misunderstood/misinterpreted E >the requirement that dropped on my desk, any words of wisdom equally G >accepted, debugging the requirement may also be part of this solution. H >(Having said that I've also had the requirement of running ECU on a box; >with a duff floppy, so I'm still interested in this path).  > * >In anticipation, thank you for your time. >-- ) >Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences  >nclews at csc dot com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:27:25 -0700* From: vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham)  Subject: Re: BIG cluster problem< Message-ID: <8b51ed8.0108220827.671229ae@posting.google.com>  F Using other posting on the group, I have managed to rename the SCSNODEC and SCSSYSTEMID to what I think they should be. I have reloaded the  licenses as needed.   E Now I need to set the disks from production $1$ to $2$ for the backup  system. 5 Is there a specific sysgen parameter which does this?    Regards, victor.mendham@emergis.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:00:06 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Choose IBM...? ) Message-ID: <3B837496.638EA670@127.0.0.1>    Rob Young wrote: > X > In article <3B82E029.BE2ACB0E@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > = > > And even though from time to time here, the ardent VMSers ? > > criticize Unix for certain shortcoming they perceive exist,  > 7 >         Not perceive.  They do exist.  vi sucks.  The    Rob,   Why stop at UNIX?   E Whilst things may (possibly?) have changed since my IBM mainframe and B AS400 days, did you know that if an output job barfed or got held,- everything queued up behind it stuck as well?   H Their 'dumb' terminals, it takes just one 'dumb' user to pull the twinaxH out the back to kill the entire chain, processes and all. Finding faultsG causing this is like trying to find the fairly light that's taken a set ! out while it's wrapped to a tree.   G The early TCPIP implementations were pretty dire and featureless, and a F nightmare to configure, inflexible, IPL's required (reboots to you and me).  H Even the IBM engineers after replacing failed raidsets advised no-one toG use the system till it had rebuilt, and they took forever. Single level  storage my ASE.   E And the amount of babysitting these things needed, a licence to print  overtime cheques.   E I would compare managing the system with having to do *everything* in ( VMS using SDA with 'poke' functionality.  H Nice flashing lights though... The only thing they seemed to lack was an# expensive machine that went 'ping'.  --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:34:24 -0400 - From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>  Subject: Re: Choose IBM...? # Message-ID: <sb836e9b.067@aaas.org>    Be fair.  I At the time Twin Ax was popular, what were your options? On the PC side = H you had ArcNet and Ethernet (both using RG58 Coax) which also required =F extensive cable testing if there was a problem, you had serial lines =I (ick), and several other proprietary solutions (Honeywell had some HUGE = ) cable with some sick pinout I recall).=20   I In 1998, I converted an AS/400 shop using TwinAx to Bayluns and Twisted = I Pair - just like Ethernet, repeaters and all. I maintained that and the = H Ethernet network with the same level of effort (cable problems - zilch).  J I don't think anyone's early TCP/IP implementation was any good - except =K Unix. <G> Any Netware folks out there? "Let's encapsulate IPX inside IP." = K I remember 4.11 servers dropping the IP stack and abending, and they "had = I it together". At the time there wasn't much in the way of routers either.   J The company I worked for was actually 2 companies - one with 7 sites and =C one with 3 (I was at the smaller). The larger had several AS/400s = L maintained by two people, and we had two AS/400s for three sites maintained=J  by one person. Three IT people for 10 sites. When we switched to PCs at =4 the smaller site we added 4 people to maintain them.  L And as I've said in several posts, when I first started using VMS a couple =G years ago I would have *killed* to have OS/400 back, it's what you're = * familiar with. Now, I'm glad to know both.  H I felt the same way about EDIT - I would have killed to have vi, and I =E could have just installed it, but I wanted to know the native editor.   G I like VMS, OS/400, and Unix. I will work with NT (preferrably on the =oF desktop, where it belongs). I like Mac OS. I try not to discriminate =K against any OS or programming language because I'm always looking for the =TF best tool to solve the problem, and I never want to be typecast as a =
 <blank> user.e  H That said, I'll get off my soap box now. Just remember - Unix loves you.  @ >>> Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> 08/22/2001 5:00:06 AM >>> Rob Young wrote: >=20L > In article <3B82E029.BE2ACB0E@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot= com> writes: >=20= > > And even though from time to time here, the ardent VMSerso? > > criticize Unix for certain shortcoming they perceive exist,A >=207 >         Not perceive.  They do exist.  vi sucks.  Theo   Rob,   Why stop at UNIX?s  E Whilst things may (possibly?) have changed since my IBM mainframe and B AS400 days, did you know that if an output job barfed or got held,- everything queued up behind it stuck as well?s  H Their 'dumb' terminals, it takes just one 'dumb' user to pull the twinaxH out the back to kill the entire chain, processes and all. Finding faultsG causing this is like trying to find the fairly light that's taken a setN! out while it's wrapped to a tree._  G The early TCPIP implementations were pretty dire and featureless, and auF nightmare to configure, inflexible, IPL's required (reboots to you and me).  H Even the IBM engineers after replacing failed raidsets advised no-one toG use the system till it had rebuilt, and they took forever. Single level  storage my ASE.   E And the amount of babysitting these things needed, a licence to printr overtime cheques.e  E I would compare managing the system with having to do *everything* int( VMS using SDA with 'poke' functionality.  H Nice flashing lights though... The only thing they seemed to lack was an# expensive machine that went 'ping'.  --=20a( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:20:43 +0100l0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Good VMS news* Message-ID: <3B83958B.B6654BE4@uk.sun.com>   Jakob Erber wrote: > 
 > Hi John, >  > like I said: > M > VMS is the only real alternative among midrange computers to replace an IBMD > Mainframe. >   	 Bullshit.t  H UNIX's from Sun, HP. IBM and even Compaq have been sucessfully replacingB IBM mainframes for a number of years. Many of the SAP ERP projects	 currentlyyH running on large UNIX systems were replacments for older systems runningG on MVS. I worked for a large hotel chain that has sucessfully replaced sA all its MVS and AS/400's with UNIX based systems and they are notC unusual.  F In fact OpenVMS is in reality a dead duck for replacing IBM mainframesF because many mainframe migrations occur because people have moved fromH Inhouse developed apps to packaged apps like SAP/PeopleSoft/Oracle/RetekG etc etc etc. Since most of these either don't run on OpenVMS or have no:D current support on OpenVMS it is of almost no use as a platform for # this kind of mainframe replacement.a  E I am currently working on a very large retail customers migration to cD UNIX from a host of systems that include a number of S390's. A tiny E minority of the apps they have chosen for the new infrastructure (1) lD out of >50 actually runs on OpenVMS. This does not include platform E apps like Oracle DBMS, messaging etc. But even here they for example o8 require versions of BEA WLS which do not run on OpenVMS.    	 > regards- >  > Jakob- > 7 > "John Nebel" <nebel@csdco.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag2C > news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0108141534180.24659-100000@athena.csdco.com...K > >o
 > > ISV news.c > >:G > > A few weeks ago the transition from MVS to VMS was made for a largetL > > State application and the MVS software was shut down.  This project took- > > about 3 years and is not going away soon.m > > : > > A small wake was held for the old MVS software Friday. > >yM > > VMS looks might it may "own" this application and it is applicable to all.- > > states.  Too bad I can't say more here :)a > >a > > John Nebel > >f   -- c Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architectr   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:46:13 GMTOB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>7 Subject: GTK and VMS: current status and future plans ?a5 Message-ID: <9YMg7.10246$2u.73349@www.newsranger.com>-  * What is the current status of GTK on VMS ?  J I know that there is a port of 1.2-8; has anybody formed an opinion on how stable it is ?  2 Is anyone planning to port later versions to VMS ?   Thanks for any information,    Simon.   -- l; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPkK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aoE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:42:09 GMTh2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Help with DCL2 Message-ID: <lpQg7.538$bB1.29945@news.cpqcorp.net>  O In article <3B831576.3EA86939@austin.rr.com>, Robin <rlb@austin.rr.com> writes:9D :I can see what this code is doing but I'm not sure how.  Can anyone/ :explain or point me in the right direction?...7  E   I cover this topic in the DCL programming book -- this DCL code is nH   building up ANSI control sequences (escape sequences) for controlling    a serial terminal display.  G   For general information on control sequences, please see the OpenVMS oF   Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) section entitled "MISC2. Where can G   I find information on escape and control sequences?" and "DECW9. How t+   do I set the title on a DECterm window?".e  F   After reading these FAQ sections, please let us know if you have anyD   additional questions -- these resources will hopefully answer the    current question.d  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:47:24 +0200c, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: Re: Help with DCL& Message-ID: <3B83F02B.4A965857@gmx.ch>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:- > Q > In article <3B831576.3EA86939@austin.rr.com>, Robin <rlb@austin.rr.com> writes:oF > :I can see what this code is doing but I'm not sure how.  Can anyone1 > :explain or point me in the right direction?...4 > 3 >   I cover this topic in the DCL programming book j  < http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1555581919.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg  C (To understand the $ NUMBER = 42, one should read Douglas Adams :^)e   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:50:21 -0400m  From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil Subject: Re: Help with DCL0 Message-ID: <01082213502153@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  M Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in <3B83F02B.4A965857@gmx.ch> one  Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:47:24 +0200:   > Hoff Hoffman wrote:3 > > L > > In article <3B831576.3EA86939@austin.rr.com>, Robin <rlb@austin.rr.com> 	 > writes:dH > > :I can see what this code is doing but I'm not sure how.  Can anyone3 > > :explain or point me in the right direction?...  > > 5 > >   I cover this topic in the DCL programming book , > > > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1555581919.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > E > (To understand the $ NUMBER = 42, one should read Douglas Adams :^)r  = I'd say that Douglas Adams would have said     $ answer =  42O= or, since it is THE answer, make it a global:  $ answer == 42h  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919e; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919o5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 05:05:22 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s( Subject: IA64-VMS porting of CA products3 Message-ID: <bnieBKIVyLG$@eisner.encompasserve.org>u   In article <rdeininger-2108012256490001@user-2ivealm.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:-E > In article <d7b4ot4ogf800d1v0ggp34a2om637l0s3v@4ax.com>, Alan Greig- > <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:o > G >> On 20 Aug 2001 22:04:01 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-	 >> wrote:- >> - >> aJ >> >       Fast forward 3 years out.  Your vendor supports both Alpha and G >> >       IPF binaries.  Plug an IPF box into your SAN.  SCS is flyingD >> SD >> But currently my two major vendors CA and Oracle say "No decision
 >> yet!".  > L > I don't know that this is the reason, but CA has some weird stuff going on
 > these days.o  # <comprehensive description snipped>i  D While I agree that CA may have other distractions today, I think theB longer-term question regarding porting to IA64-VMS is that CA doesC not have a big history of developing products.  Their history (eveneD on the IBM side) is more typically one of buying companies that have$ already developed a winning product.  E I suppose Fred Kleinsorge and his fellows (and gals :-) have as their D task making the porting process simple enough that is would not be a@ discouraging factor to an outfit that is not accustomed to major development efforts.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 05:16:55 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)44 Subject: Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?3 Message-ID: <GKINrGkj2uPb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3B833CE7.D7ED5B57@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:b > Vic Mendham asked: >> eW >> Is there a why to set sysgen to verify so I can see what is happening during a boot?a  I > Btw, I wonder why the OUTPUT=FILE is not the default value. Each time IlD > arrive on a new site, people are complaining about "normal" errorsF > during boot (I hate this expression) but noone ever thinks about the! > sys$system:startup.log feature.m  B It is precisely so you can look good when you arrive and show them
 the trick :-)u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:13:55 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 4 Subject: Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?< Message-ID: <howard-B115B4.08135522082001@enews.newsguy.com>  N In article <3B833CE7.D7ED5B57@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>  wrote:  I > Btw, I wonder why the OUTPUT=FILE is not the default value. Each time InD > arrive on a new site, people are complaining about "normal" errorsF > during boot (I hate this expression) but noone ever thinks about the! > sys$system:startup.log feature.n  6 Okay, spill it.  I've never heard of this before.  :-( -- s Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:07:15 -0400   From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil4 Subject: Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?0 Message-ID: <01082209071546@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  J Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote on 21 AUG 2001 21:18:35 GMT in' <21AUG01.21183521@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>:   D > In a previous article, vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham) wrote:I > > Is there a why to set sysgen to verify so I can see what is happeningo > > during a boot? >  > Check out. >  >  $ MC SYSMAN# >  SYSMAN> HELP STARTUP SET OPTIONS? >  > My system are set as follows:, > K >  $ MC SYSMAN STARTUP SET OPTIONS/VERIFY=PARTIAL/OUTPUT=FILE/CHECKPOINTINGe > 8 > (Actually, I have the following line in MODPARAMS.DAT: >  >   STARTUP_P2 = "DCP" > ( > so AUTOGEN doesn't erase my settings.) > I > This creates SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.LOG.  Beware of SET NOVERIFY in startupo > files.  A After my .sig is the piece we put in all our modparams.dat files:o  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919d; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919,5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094i  M !vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv  !nN !*****************************************************************************N !*  MODPARAMS.DAT for NODE :   BEAST         Date Last Updated : 10/15/99    *N !*                                                                           *N !*  Author : Ed James  TCS, Inc. 410-295-1919                                *N !*                                                                           *N !*  Purpose : Set up parameters for saving startup log to disk               *N !*                                                                           *N !*  Change History :                                                         *N !***************************************************************************** !e  ! /OUTPUT=FILE,CONSOLE (default)M !   Sends output generated by using the /VERIFY qualifier to a file or to thea= !   system console. If you choose the FILE option, it createsg% !   SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]STARTUP.LOG.S !  ! /NOCHECKPOINTING (default) ! /CHECKPOINTINGH !   Displays information messages describing the time and status of each* !   startup phase and component procedure. !t  ! /VERIFY=FULL (default),PARTIAL ! /NOVERIFY E !   FULL     Displays every line of DCL executed by startup componentr* !            procedures and by STARTUP.COME !   PARTIAL  Displays every line of DCL executed by startup component I !            procedures, but does not display DCL executed by STARTUP.COMl !i4 ! SYSMAN SET STARTUP OPTIONS/OUTPUT=FILE/VERIFY=FULL1 ! STARTUP_P2 LETTER:         D                  FaB ! SYSMAN SET STARTUP OPTIONS/OUTPUT=FILE/VERIFY=PARTIAL/CHECKPOINT9 ! STARTUP_P2 LETTER:         D                  P       Ce !P STARTUP_P2 = "DCP" !oM !^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:42:12 +0200l, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>4 Subject: Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?& Message-ID: <3B83EEF4.C37422CA@gmx.ch>   Howard S Shubs wrote:h > 8 > Okay, spill it.  I've never heard of this before.  :-(  % Just what others said in this thread:.   $ mc sysman 6 sysman> startup set options/output=file/verify=partial
 sysman> ^Z $ C $ reboot (symbol defined in the default sysmgr login.com procedure)- ../..- [after reboot]  7 $ search/number sys$system:startup.log "-W-","-E-","-F"   A We (well, most of us) do this since more that 20 years, don't we?s   D.   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 01 09:25:07 MDT" From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)Q Subject: Re: Migration towards commodity HW (was Ultra 160 SCSI for OpenVMS Alphar% Message-ID: <deouwJGb8Nuf@cc.usu.edu>w  i In article <55f85d77.0108220541.115b0a62@posting.google.com>, P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes: F > An effort by everyone with any free time to write device drivers forH > every current bit of PCI hardware they can find and submit them to the= > freeware CD? - it might cut down on newsgroup postings :-) t  D Not until PCI systems start showing up in the surplus places where I@ acquire stuff. Its only fairly recently that I've started seeingE the TURBOchannel systems surplused, so I suspect it'll be a few yearsi before I acquire a PCI system. -- rN -------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ Roger Ivie               | Free the ROT-13! : ivie@cc.usu.edu          |    http://www.freesklyarov.org/ http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ |   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 06:41:37 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)rS Subject: Migration towards commodity HW (was Ultra 160 SCSI for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3)h= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0108220541.115b0a62@posting.google.com>t  k jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) wrote in message news:<cc5619f2.0108210909.5e9607a8@posting.google.com>...iF > or 66MHZ slot.  FYI it looks like non-RAID U160 is finally availableF > for VMS.  Now to find out what hardware platforms are supported, and) > hope for a backport to at least V7.2-1.t   _Weird_ thought for tonight...  F I've been using U160 SCSI under OpenVMS 7.2-1 for the past 5 months onC my home machine. The driver was (AFAIK) first made available in then VMS721_FIBRE_SCSI-V0200 kit.  B I upgraded my home machine a couple of weeks ago to 7.3, and after6 reading this just now installed VMS73_FIBRE_SCSI-V0100  " The interesting change being from:   $ sh mag pkbC Disk PKB0:, device type Generic SCSI disk, is online, error logging  is enabled.@   to:.   $ sh mag pkbD Device PKB0:, device type Adaptec AIC-7899, is online, error logging is enabled.   D I'm actually using a _totally_ unsupported AIC-7892 (single channel,B device/vendor 0x00809005 verses AIC-7899 dual channel 0x00C09005).A Interestingly the text is Adaptec (the original vendor). RememberiD this change in the days of unsupported/verses supported disk drives?   So why I am saying this?    I My home system is in _no way_ supported and every component in it (except G the ELSA Gloria, KZPAA, and the M$ Window(tm) sound system. Ethernet iseL Digital chipset but SMC PCI option) are nowhere near the supported H/W list.J I may also soon be removing the KZPAA as well as I need the slot (for more unsupported hardware).  D The 7.2-1 to 7.3 upgrade was especially sweet - I did nothing except follow the instructions.   So what is my point?  H OpenVMS is slowly becoming more and more viable on commodity hardware. II don't for one moment suggest you use unsupported hardware in a productionrI or critical environment. However some of you might want to give your homeiF system a second look and think about this. How many Intel chips do youH already see inside recent Alpha systems?. How many useless x86 ROM chips on some of those PCI options?i  F Did anyone else notice the DE500 to DE600 migration from DEC to Intel?1 (apart from of course the (lack of) SRM support).T  H I do see a strong argument for a migration towards commodity HW. Have to1 in order to compete against Window(tm) and Linux.s  D An effort by everyone with any free time to write device drivers forF every current bit of PCI hardware they can find and submit them to the; freeware CD? - it might cut down on newsgroup postings :-) 5  B AFAIK the OpenVMS IDE (for some reason this always reminds me of aC VAX 11/730) driver comes to mind - started as a home user project?    ' Enough rambling. Sorry. Just a thought.l  K PS: cute utility to display hardware config (reads LINUX VENDORS.TXT file).i, Don't know that the IRQ report is right yet.  	 $ run pciR  ; Device ADP = 81447180, BASE = 0, TR = 1, NODE = 0, TYPE=100a: Device ADP = 81447400, BASE = 0, TR = 2, NODE = 0, TYPE=68A Device ADP = 81447d00, BASE = 862d4000, TR = 3, NODE = 0, TYPE=714A Device ADP = 81448340, BASE = 862d4000, TR = 4, NODE = 0, TYPE=72   , PCI device at CSR 862cc000, IRQ 248, Node 40 1000    LSI Logica:                 0001    53C810 Fast/Narrow SCSI I/O Cntrlr  , PCI device at CSR 862ce000, IRQ 240, Node 48% 1011    Digital Equipment Corporationt;                 0014    DC21041 Tulip Plus Ethernet Adaptere  , PCI device at CSR 862d0000, IRQ 244, Node 56 9005    Adaptecf@                 0080    AIC-7892A Ultra160/m PCI SCSI Controller  , PCI device at CSR 862d2000, IRQ 240, Node 64 8086    Intel Corporation 1                 0484    82378ZB/IB SIO ISA Bridgei  , PCI device at CSR 864d6000, IRQ 24c, Node 72 104C    Texas Instrumentsf.                 3D07    TVP4020 AGP Permedia 2  , PCI device at CSR 864d8000, IRQ 254, Node 88 1095    CMD Technology Inc.e.                 0646    PCI0646 bus master IDE   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:19:02 +0200@= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>1( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3B835CE6.BE2FF5C8@gtech.com>    Richard Tomkins wrote:L > Lack of Software support? HUH? OpenVMS, Windows NT, Tru64 UNIX, LINUX, andD > all the applications and layered products that go along with them.   ????  < With this kind of logic it is easy to argument for anything.   But the reality is different !  9 Windows NT / Alpha and Windows NT / x86 does not have thet5 same number of apps available. There are a differencen of a factor 100-1000 !   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2001 13:19:18 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print+ Message-ID: <9m0bgm$41j$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  0 In article <3b833829.29911760@news.process.com>,0  goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:M |> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:16:05 GMT, bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote:o |> >L |> >Somehow you guys keep missing the Charon Vax. It runs on Intel.  It runs5 |> >VMS.  It runs on Intel. Thus VMS runs on Intel.  - |> >G |> And everything you expect from a VAX running VMS is there, includingfG |> full networking (both DECnet and TCP/IP), and, most amazingly to me,aF |> the ability to cluster your VMS CHARON-VAX with other VAX and AlphaD |> systems running VMS.  While the Hobbyist version does not includeF |> networking, the full-blown version does, and it works like a charm. |> s  , Maybe, but it lacks the class of a real VAX.   bill   -- BJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:04:16 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>  Subject: Re: Move to Sun) Message-ID: <3B835970.697571C9@gtech.com>t   andrew harrison wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > andrew harrison wrote: > > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > > andrew harrison wrote:D > > > > > The IBM S390 division, the AS400 and the RS/6000 divisionsD > > > > > have no intention of including any IA-64 products in their > > > > > product lines. > >pJ > > > > But your statement does not make any sense ! Compaq Alpha divisionJ > > > > are not including IA-64. VMS (and Tru64) will support IA-64. It isH > > > > the same for IBM. Their pSeries will not use IA-64. But AIX willN > > > > support IA-64 (I think the beta version of AIX 5 for IA-64 are already > > > > out there).r > > > >f > > >lB > > > AIX is being ported to IA-64 (Sequent) because IBM wants one@ > > > common UNIX OS for their two UNIX platforms. This does notA > > > mean that they are migrating to IA-64 nor does it mean thatcC > > > they will stop positioning the pSeries(RS/6000) as their highn  > > > performance UNIX platform. > > >sC > > > This is totally different to Compaq since Compaq are droppingn > > > Alpha in favour of IA-64.h > >h% > > That is a *BIG* difference - yes.t > >iB > > But it has very little to do with the fact that your statement? > > "RS/6000 divisions have no intention of including any IA-64 ? > > products in their product lines" is very misleading indeed.- > >  > 5 > No it isn't. The pSeries division have no intentiont8 > of including any IA-64 products in their product range7 > since all their products are based on PowerX and AIX.i > 8 > The xSeries Division which makes Intel based boxes and8 > which incorporates the Netinfinity and Sequent product5 > ranges obviously does intend to produce IA-64 based : > systems. The only confusion is that the xSeries division% > is also adopting AIX for the IA-64..  ) Then I will make the following statement:   7   "Compaq Alpha division has no intentions of including    IA-64 in their product line".p  : Which is technically correct ! But very very misleading !!  % And very equivalent to what you said.h   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:43:50 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a Subject: Re: Nits in Slides43 Message-ID: <Oy2Est2s4eZA@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ] In article <3B83A75A.F7B90E95@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:   E >>   There are plans for a translation tool, but no specifics as yet.4 >> 0 > , > Can you explain what use this would be ??? > ; > I understand its usefullness for apps where people don't l; > have the source but for commercial apps it is like FX!32 D: > a total waste of time since you need the apps vendors to: > support the translated code (they would not with FX!32). > ; > This is before you get to the performance issues. Simply t7 > translating the instructions will result in horrible r6 > performance on IA64, you will need to translate and ; > optimise at the same time which is a much more difficult >6 > trick to do with IA64 than it was with X86 -> Alpha.  = Believe it or not Andrew, performance is not always an issue..; There are plenty of people on VAX because while their majort; application was ported to Alpha, some small utility that isn< essential but not responsible for much CPU time has not been! ported by the vendor in question.   D I also know of folks using older SunOS versions rather than Solaris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:00:14 -0400r5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a Subject: Re: Nits in Slideso2 Message-ID: <xVOg7.526$bB1.29956@news.cpqcorp.net>  $ Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ... >a> >Believe it or not Andrew, performance is not always an issue.    J Come on Larry, he works for Sun, so he MUST know performance is not alwaysL an issue ;-)  Heck the IA64 is faster than the USIII.  And any $1500 PC with a Pentium can kick it's butt.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:45:04 +010050 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Nits in Slidesh* Message-ID: <3B83C570.229C360E@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > & > Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ... > >5@ > >Believe it or not Andrew, performance is not always an issue. > L > Come on Larry, he works for Sun, so he MUST know performance is not alwaysN > an issue ;-)  Heck the IA64 is faster than the USIII.  And any $1500 PC with > a Pentium can kick it's butt.i  
 Hang on Fred.   D "IA64 is faster than USIII". Interesting USIII systems are shipping @ in quantity and we have actual benchmark results for them apart 8 from SPECint and SPECfp and IA64 is doing what ?????????  > Incedentally if you are prepared to accept that IA64 really is9 available then its also faster than Alpha as well for all 8 that SPEC results prove. Or hadn't you noticed that the 5 IA64 SPECfp results are faster than Alpha as well as 5 being faster than USIII.  ; You seem to have been immersed in the Intel culture rather a8 quicker than some people might have expected. I guess a 4 whole load of things have changed post the 25th and 4 in your case from you posting style and content they havn't been for the better.b  8 Any bets on how long it takes for you to start claiming 5 that your CPU (IA64) is faster than anyone elses :):)    Regards  Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT ArchitectS   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:40:34 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>0 Subject: Re: Nits in Slidese2 Message-ID: <RfRg7.551$bB1.30013@news.cpqcorp.net>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B83C570.229C360E@uk.sun.com>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:r >>' >> Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...8 >> >A >> >Believe it or not Andrew, performance is not always an issue.r >>F >> Come on Larry, he works for Sun, so he MUST know performance is not alwaysJ >> an issue ;-)  Heck the IA64 is faster than the USIII.  And any $1500 PC with  >> a Pentium can kick it's butt. >T >Hang on Fred. > D >"IA64 is faster than USIII". Interesting USIII systems are shipping@ >in quantity and we have actual benchmark results for them apart9 >from SPECint and SPECfp and IA64 is doing what ?????????U >2    G Gee.  Aren't you "Mr. My-Benchmark-is-Bigger-than-Your-Benchmark"?  WhySL haven't you restated your spec results in light of the need to turn off your prefetch pipeline?  ? >Incedentally if you are prepared to accept that IA64 really is : >available then its also faster than Alpha as well for all8 >that SPEC results prove. Or hadn't you noticed that the5 >IA64 SPECfp results are faster than Alpha as well as5 >being faster than USIII.1 >i  H The fact that IA64 and IA32 are getting close to parity with the currentL generation of Alpha in single stream performance hasn't gone without notice.  ; >You seem to have been immersed in the Intel culture rather 8 >quicker than some people might have expected. I guess a4 >whole load of things have changed post the 25th and5 >in your case from you posting style and content they  >havn't been for the better. >   J Some things haven't changed.  I still think you are a market droid with anG inch deep technical background.  People can have the debate about Alpha G versus IPF.  I'm just an engineer, and am paid to help make it work.  I*H expect it to work well, and get much better over time.  But even at THIS- point it will be a faster product that USIII.*  8 >Any bets on how long it takes for you to start claiming6 >that your CPU (IA64) is faster than anyone elses :):) >V  J No, but what you'll see is Compaq make scaleable enterprise solutions from> it.  Plus it will have something USIII doesn't have - OpenVMS.  L Of course, I also expect you to continue to drone on about the unfairness ofK the Compaq TPC-C results - especially since Sun doesn't even show up in the 2 top 10 - clustered, unclustered, parallel, or not.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:20:31 +0100p0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Nits in Slides * Message-ID: <3B83E9DF.69D4B11C@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > D > andrew harrison wrote in message <3B83C570.229C360E@uk.sun.com>... > >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:= > >>) > >> Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...  > >> >C > >> >Believe it or not Andrew, performance is not always an issue.  > >>  I > Gee.  Aren't you "Mr. My-Benchmark-is-Bigger-than-Your-Benchmark"?  WhyoN > haven't you restated your spec results in light of the need to turn off your > prefetch pipeline? >   8 Umm naughty naughty pot calling the kettle black or did  you forget the 6/833 issues.  A > >Incedentally if you are prepared to accept that IA64 really is-< > >available then its also faster than Alpha as well for all: > >that SPEC results prove. Or hadn't you noticed that the7 > >IA64 SPECfp results are faster than Alpha as well asy > >being faster than USIII.p > >l > J > The fact that IA64 and IA32 are getting close to parity with the currentN > generation of Alpha in single stream performance hasn't gone without notice. >   2 No Fred on the one benchmark which you indirectly 0 refer to where IA64 is faster than USIII namely - SPECfp it is also faster than Alpha as well.    , Faster isn't close to parity unless you are + in marketing. Close to parity is marketing   spin for not quite as fast.   * Do you now do the same role as Kerry ?????  = > >You seem to have been immersed in the Intel culture rather>: > >quicker than some people might have expected. I guess a6 > >whole load of things have changed post the 25th and7 > >in your case from you posting style and content they  > >havn't been for the better. > >i > L > Some things haven't changed.  I still think you are a market droid with anI > inch deep technical background.  People can have the debate about Alpha I > versus IPF.  I'm just an engineer, and am paid to help make it work.  IiJ > expect it to work well, and get much better over time.  But even at THIS/ > point it will be a faster product that USIII.- >   4 Damn you started out technical and then lost it and 4 became a marketeer. Repeat after me, I have no data 3 on which to make these claims 5 times it will help -0 and may restore your engineering cedibility and  persona.   RegardsU Andrew Harrisong Enterprise IT Architectw   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:36:42 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>B Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)* Message-ID: <3B83A75A.F7B90E95@uk.sun.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > j > In article <3B7DB116.E60C562B@intel.com>, "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> writes:- > :Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:2Q > :> This statement really seems to invite the kind of crystal-ball gazing that's.$ > :> been going on in the newsgroup. > :n > :Agreed. :-( > 3 >   I don't expect there is any way to dissuade it.- > I > :> Does "with binary file compatibility, existing AlphaServers will runrM > :> seamlessly with Itanium-based Compaq servers" only mean that RMS will benJ > :> supported on VMS/Itanium?  Or does it mean that the servers will haveI > :> on-the-fly Alpha->Intel translation to run binary executables?  Does:J > :> "Compaq servers" mean that only Compaq hardware will run VMS/Itanium? > :> Etc, etc. > :oE > :I stumbled over that first time I read it as well.  I'm reasonablyvG > :sure that they mean "data file" compatibility, as exists between VAXe > :and Alpha now.d > H >   That is exactly what is intended.  Data files.  Not executable code. > D >   There are plans for a translation tool, but no specifics as yet. >   * Can you explain what use this would be ???  9 I understand its usefullness for apps where people don't i9 have the source but for commercial apps it is like FX!32 e8 a total waste of time since you need the apps vendors to8 support the translated code (they would not with FX!32).  9 This is before you get to the performance issues. Simply  5 translating the instructions will result in horrible m4 performance on IA64, you will need to translate and 9 optimise at the same time which is a much more difficult t4 trick to do with IA64 than it was with X86 -> Alpha.  : We all know that the performance issues are with emulated 9 code on IA64, Intel themselves better than most. If I was 6 you I would hold back on announcing any sort of Alpha 8 binary support on IA64 until the results of HP's attempt4 to do something similar with HP-PA binaries hit the  street.o   Regardst Andrew Harrisonf Enterprise IT Architectf   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:24:43 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>)B Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)2 Message-ID: <eoOg7.522$bB1.29540@news.cpqcorp.net>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B83A75A.F7B90E95@uk.sun.com>... >Hoff Hoffman wrote: >>C >> In article <3B7DB116.E60C562B@intel.com>, "Kenneth H. Fairfield"f' <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> writes:a. >> :Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:K >> :> This statement really seems to invite the kind of crystal-ball gazinga that's% >> :> been going on in the newsgroup.h >> : >> :Agreed. :-(e >>4 >>   I don't expect there is any way to dissuade it. >>J >> :> Does "with binary file compatibility, existing AlphaServers will runK >> :> seamlessly with Itanium-based Compaq servers" only mean that RMS wille beK >> :> supported on VMS/Itanium?  Or does it mean that the servers will have J >> :> on-the-fly Alpha->Intel translation to run binary executables?  DoesK >> :> "Compaq servers" mean that only Compaq hardware will run VMS/Itanium?8 >> :> Etc, etc.  >> :F >> :I stumbled over that first time I read it as well.  I'm reasonablyH >> :sure that they mean "data file" compatibility, as exists between VAX >> :and Alpha now. >>I >>   That is exactly what is intended.  Data files.  Not executable code.  >>E >>   There are plans for a translation tool, but no specifics as yet.B >> >A+ >Can you explain what use this would be ???4 >N9 >I understand its usefullness for apps where people don't 9 >have the source but for commercial apps it is like FX!3259 >a total waste of time since you need the apps vendors to69 >support the translated code (they would not with FX!32).- > 9 >This is before you get to the performance issues. Simply85 >translating the instructions will result in horribleR4 >performance on IA64, you will need to translate and9 >optimise at the same time which is a much more difficulto5 >trick to do with IA64 than it was with X86 -> Alpha.I >,: >We all know that the performance issues are with emulated: >code on IA64, Intel themselves better than most. If I was6 >you I would hold back on announcing any sort of Alpha9 >binary support on IA64 until the results of HP's attemptv4 >to do something similar with HP-PA binaries hit the >street. >a    J Come on Andrew.  Translated/emulated images always will have a performanceI deficit compared to native compilation.  However, the performance doesn't:J have to be unacceptable.  Heck, given how abysmal USIII performs, it might' be faster than a native port to Sun ;-)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:45:24 +010020 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>B Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)* Message-ID: <3B83C584.A10810A1@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > D > andrew harrison wrote in message <3B83A75A.F7B90E95@uk.sun.com>... > >Hoff Hoffman wrote: > >>E > >> In article <3B7DB116.E60C562B@intel.com>, "Kenneth H. Fairfield">) > <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> writes: 0 > >> :Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:M > >> :> This statement really seems to invite the kind of crystal-ball gazings > that's' > >> :> been going on in the newsgroup., > >> : > >> :Agreed. :-(a > >>6 > >>   I don't expect there is any way to dissuade it. > >>L > >> :> Does "with binary file compatibility, existing AlphaServers will runM > >> :> seamlessly with Itanium-based Compaq servers" only mean that RMS will  > beM > >> :> supported on VMS/Itanium?  Or does it mean that the servers will have L > >> :> on-the-fly Alpha->Intel translation to run binary executables?  DoesM > >> :> "Compaq servers" mean that only Compaq hardware will run VMS/Itanium?e > >> :> Etc, etc.h > >> :H > >> :I stumbled over that first time I read it as well.  I'm reasonablyJ > >> :sure that they mean "data file" compatibility, as exists between VAX > >> :and Alpha now. > >>K > >>   That is exactly what is intended.  Data files.  Not executable code.  > >>G > >>   There are plans for a translation tool, but no specifics as yet.n > >> > > - > >Can you explain what use this would be ???. > >(; > >I understand its usefullness for apps where people don'tM; > >have the source but for commercial apps it is like FX!32p; > >a total waste of time since you need the apps vendors tor; > >support the translated code (they would not with FX!32).i > >r; > >This is before you get to the performance issues. SimplyI7 > >translating the instructions will result in horriblee6 > >performance on IA64, you will need to translate and; > >optimise at the same time which is a much more difficultt7 > >trick to do with IA64 than it was with X86 -> Alpha.  > >s< > >We all know that the performance issues are with emulated< > >code on IA64, Intel themselves better than most. If I was8 > >you I would hold back on announcing any sort of Alpha; > >binary support on IA64 until the results of HP's attempto6 > >to do something similar with HP-PA binaries hit the
 > >street. > >i > L > Come on Andrew.  Translated/emulated images always will have a performanceK > deficit compared to native compilation.  However, the performance doesn't L > have to be unacceptable.  Heck, given how abysmal USIII performs, it might) > be faster than a native port to Sun ;-)n    < Come on Fred even you post the 25th can do better than this.  " Lets address your points in order.   Emulation/translation.  4 Firstly some emulation/translation is faster on the 3 new platform than it was on the native system. Thisa/ for example was true for some x86 apps running t2 translated on Alpha using FX!32. This was because . the Alpha was a faster processor than the x86.  8 However running translated or emulated code on the IA64 4 is particularly likely to show big performance hits 3 because of the the huge dependency that IA64 has onr the compiler to support ILP. t  4 The effects of not having natively compiled code are4 already known with some x86 apps running at Pentium 3 100 Mhz speeds on an 800 Mhz IA64 CPU. Most people  ' would consider this to be unacceptable.n  6 It is also not possible to draw parallels between the 3 experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since cares2 was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this.  4 This has not happened for Alpha->IA64 because Intel 8 never made any provision for this in their architecture 4 as is obvious from the some of the posts refering to levels of protection etc.y  3 Now with IA64 you are exposing your customers to a n3 triple whammy which you didn't expose them to with r VAX->Alpha.,  7 1.	The EV7 will probably be a faster CPU than the IA64 m4 	CPU that you migrate to so even native compilation 1 	may result in a peformance drop. This wasn't theo/ 	case for VAX-Alpha except for some edge cases..  0 2.	The delta between a natively compiled app on , 	IA64 and an emulated/translated one is huge! 	this wasn't the case with Alpha.a  0 3.	The Alpha designers were carefull to provide 0 	good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couple0 	of significant exceptions which were rectified . 	later) no such care has been taken for IA-64.  9 These 3 things add up to making emulated/translated Alpha 6 binaries running on IA64 a very unattractive prospect.   UltraIII performance.5  ; If Alpha was capable of deliver the same level of thoughputa? when inserted into a socket and built into a server as UltraIIIa= then you would have a point. Sadly for you somewhere between p@ in cache benchmarks like SPEC and actual throughput for peoples : applications Alpha goes badly wrong as your own benchmark = results for anything other than SPECint and fp show. :):):):)    Regards  Andrew Harrisonn Enterprise IT Architectp   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:15:30 -0400E5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>gB Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)2 Message-ID: <CMRg7.554$bB1.30092@news.cpqcorp.net>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B83C584.A10810A1@uk.sun.com>... >;= >Come on Fred even you post the 25th can do better than this.i > # >Lets address your points in order.a >o >Emulation/translation.e >h4 >Firstly some emulation/translation is faster on the4 >new platform than it was on the native system. This/ >for example was true for some x86 apps runningn2 >translated on Alpha using FX!32. This was because/ >the Alpha was a faster processor than the x86.s >s    F What a twisted point.  Native compilation of source code on the targetH processor, always is better than emulated/translated performance ON THATJ SAME TARGET PROCESSOR.  Nobody was commenting on if the performance of theE translated image would be faster than the image running native on the K original hardware - especially if the original processor was a contemporary  Alpha.  8 >However running translated or emulated code on the IA644 >is particularly likely to show big performance hits4 >because of the the huge dependency that IA64 has on >the compiler to support ILP.  >e  K So?  Yes, I already said it will be slower than native performance.  If the1I original was an Alpha image, then it will be measurably slower - at leastuI until IPF processor speeds get considerably faster.  How much slower willeG depend on a lot of things.  If the code is a CPU intensive application, F instinct should tell you that you won't be happy with a translation orH emulation.  But translation technology with incremental optimization has, come a long way, and we'll see what happens.  L I expect the vast majority of Alpha code to be recompiled.  I expect we will7 probably see more VAX images than Alpha running on IPF.k  5 >The effects of not having natively compiled code aret4 >already known with some x86 apps running at Pentium3 >100 Mhz speeds on an 800 Mhz IA64 CPU. Most peopleh( >would consider this to be unacceptable. >s    1 I suppose it *depends* on what the code is doing.y  6 >It is also not possible to draw parallels between the4 >experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since care3 >was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this.f >u    K Eh?  Aside from having a few things in the HW to help the OS out, the AlphanJ ISA doesn't provide anything that makes it easier/faster to emulate a VAX.G The raw performance of Alpha over VAX makes translated images feasible.eI Heck, the raw performance of the IA32 over the VAX makes *pure* emulationt feasible (ala Charron).a  4 >This has not happened for Alpha->IA64 because Intel8 >never made any provision for this in their architecture5 >as is obvious from the some of the posts refering toa >levels of protection etc. >l    E You seem to be confusing image translation/emulation with OS support.g  3 >Now with IA64 you are exposing your customers to a 3 >triple whammy which you didn't expose them to with  >VAX->Alpha. >d7 >1. The EV7 will probably be a faster CPU than the IA64e4 > CPU that you migrate to so even native compilation2 > may result in a peformance drop. This wasn't the0 > case for VAX-Alpha except for some edge cases. >     K As long as EV7 is faster than IPF, I would recommend that customers STAY onlK EV7 for production.  Since we are not removing or lessening our support foraK OpenVMS on Alpha, and since we have said we will do what we did with VAX inrK terms of mixed clusters...  people can move to IPF as the price/performancep- curve dictates.  JUST like they did with VAX.n  0 >2. The delta between a natively compiled app on- > IA64 and an emulated/translated one is hugen" > this wasn't the case with Alpha. >n  K Sure it was.  The difference between a native Alpha image, and a VESTed VAX G version of it *is* large.  But sometimes it JUST DOESN'T MATTER.  It is>J yet-to-be-seen what the performance penalty will be between an Alpha imageK on an EV6 today, and a translated version on an IPF 2-3 years from now will9/ be.  That is really the interesting comparison.   0 >3. The Alpha designers were carefull to provide1 > good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couples0 > of significant exceptions which were rectified/ > later) no such care has been taken for IA-64.? >h  L This has NOTHING to do with translated image support.  Give me the SPECIFICs that make you believe this.   : >These 3 things add up to making emulated/translated Alpha7 >binaries running on IA64 a very unattractive prospect.p >a    H Very few people used the VEST stuff on VAX.  I expect fewer will use theI Alpha translation - since Alpha code is usually much more up-to-date thantJ the VAX was - I expect the majority of people will recompile.  But it willI be there for those who need it.  And mixed cluster support will allow theoE code to continue to run on existing Alphas, while still being able tomK co-exist with IPF systems.  Eventually the same place will be reached whereuK we are today - even pure emulation of VAX code on Alpha *or* IA32 is fastera' than the original VAX system it ran on.r  H IMHO - I expect more VAX images to end up being translated/emulated than Alpha images on IPF.   >UltraIII performance. >w< >If Alpha was capable of deliver the same level of thoughput@ >when inserted into a socket and built into a server as UltraIII= >then you would have a point. Sadly for you somewhere betweena@ >in cache benchmarks like SPEC and actual throughput for peoples: >applications Alpha goes badly wrong as your own benchmark> >results for anything other than SPECint and fp show. :):):):) >w    I Eh?  Do I translate this as "ignore those test results, USIII is actuallyhH much faster - trust us"?  So tell me about your top 10 TPC-C result?  DoL your applications run faster when you turn of prefetch pipelines?   Or maybeG you are talking about some vapor future 8-way Sparc with OoO.  Hope youtL build something in to turn it off if, just in case you have the same guy who" did your cache designs work on it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:34:46 GMTl2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)> Subject: Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...)2 Message-ID: <GaRg7.549$bB1.29985@news.cpqcorp.net>  ] In article <3B83C584.A10810A1@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:e  5 :Firstly some emulation/translation is faster on the f4 :new platform than it was on the native system. This0 :for example was true for some x86 apps running 3 :translated on Alpha using FX!32. This was because p/ :the Alpha was a faster processor than the x86.t  	   True.  k  D   Comparing platforms across processor generations and with older orF   newer software versions is a popular and long-standing technique forI   skewing the results.  Some of the IA-32 and compatibles are quite fast.e  9 :However running translated or emulated code on the IA64 r5 :is particularly likely to show big performance hits t4 :because of the the huge dependency that IA64 has on :the compiler to support ILP.   C   This presumes traditional interpreter-style environments.  And anaB   environment using emulation (rather than native or even arguablyH   translation) seldom involves discussions of "fast", the target is far E   more commonly involving discussions of "fast enough" and "correct".   5 :The effects of not having natively compiled code ared5 :already known with some x86 apps running at Pentium r4 :100 Mhz speeds on an 800 Mhz IA64 CPU. Most people ( :would consider this to be unacceptable.  C   This assumes we use the identical configuration and the identicaliD   translation mechanisms, of course.  And having seen ample evidenceE   of the designs of various x86 applications -- timing loops, direct dD   hardware access, etc -- I'm not sure I'd generalize based on that.  C   Oh, and the existing IA-64 Merced systems are not the target for  F   the OpenVMS port.  We will certainly be using these for the initial D   work on the port, but I'd expect the current Merced boxes will be D   replaced with updated boxes.  See my references to OpenVMS running3   on the ProLiant DL590 elsewhere in the newsgroup.m  7 :It is also not possible to draw parallels between the n4 :experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since care3 :was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this.i  ?   Alpha was not particularly designed with emulation in mind.  r  ?   Alpha targets clock speed, superscaler processing, and SMP.     K   Alpha was specifically designed to be operating system platform neutral, tD   but to have mechanisms to ease the support of operating systems.    I   Having features such as piles of data and piles of instructions all in hI   flight tends to make emulation more interesting -- fast, when the code rF   is all scheduled correctly.  Programmers working at this level must F   account for the necessary memory barriers and the cache flushes and B   trap shadows, and the instruction scheduling needed to keep the H   instruction units as busy as can be scheduled.  EPIC has some similar G   "weirdnesses", but in different areas.  EPIC performance -- like thaty2   of Alpha -- is sensitive to the code scheduling.  H   Put another way, I'm not personally sure that the VAX-Alpha emulation I   performance has any particular bearing on VAX-IPF emulation performanceIG   -- in either direction.  But I am sure that there are folks that wantp2   a functioning emulator/translator/"transulator".  5 :This has not happened for Alpha->IA64 because Intel  9 :never made any provision for this in their architecture l5 :as is obvious from the some of the posts refering tob :levels of protection etc.  G   The EPIC (VLIW) design is very reminiscent to what used to be called >   the processor microcode.  4 :Now with IA64 you are exposing your customers to a 4 :triple whammy which you didn't expose them to with  :VAX->Alpha. :A8 :1.	The EV7 will probably be a faster CPU than the IA64 5 :	CPU that you migrate to so even native compilation h2 :	may result in a peformance drop. This wasn't the0 :	case for VAX-Alpha except for some edge cases.  >   Compaq plans to have EV7 and systems based on EV7 available.  1 :2.	The delta between a natively compiled app on n- :	IA64 and an emulated/translated one is hugen" :	this wasn't the case with Alpha.  @   I'm not sure there is enough information to substantiate that.   Or to deny it.  1 :3.	The Alpha designers were carefull to provide s1 :	good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couplef1 :	of significant exceptions which were rectified t/ :	later) no such care has been taken for IA-64.w  ?   Interesting.  We haven't seen any of this.  (You clearly haveIA   far more knowledge of the VAX, Alpha, and IPF architectures andtD   the specific implementations.  Would you mind providing specifics @   of where the resulting performance problems will lurk in IPF?)  : :These 3 things add up to making emulated/translated Alpha7 :binaries running on IA64 a very unattractive prospect.f  B   If I could choose native, translated, emulated, or "transulated"E   execution, I would clearly choose native.  That said, the relative nE   (in)elegance of any particular (software) implementation is seldom wE   the deciding factor for the majority of applications.   But please .E   do not allow this trivia to intrude upon an interesting discussion.a    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:08:26 +0100>0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>> Subject: Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...)* Message-ID: <3B83E70A.E12AE091@uk.sun.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:o > _ > In article <3B83C584.A10810A1@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  > 6 > :Firstly some emulation/translation is faster on the6 > :new platform than it was on the native system. This1 > :for example was true for some x86 apps runningV4 > :translated on Alpha using FX!32. This was because1 > :the Alpha was a faster processor than the x86.e > 	 >   True.: > F >   Comparing platforms across processor generations and with older orH >   newer software versions is a popular and long-standing technique forK >   skewing the results.  Some of the IA-32 and compatibles are quite fast., > : > :However running translated or emulated code on the IA646 > :is particularly likely to show big performance hits6 > :because of the the huge dependency that IA64 has on > :the compiler to support ILP.  > E >   This presumes traditional interpreter-style environments.  And anpD >   environment using emulation (rather than native or even arguablyI >   translation) seldom involves discussions of "fast", the target is farsG >   more commonly involving discussions of "fast enough" and "correct".  > 7 > :The effects of not having natively compiled code areh6 > :already known with some x86 apps running at Pentium5 > :100 Mhz speeds on an 800 Mhz IA64 CPU. Most peopler* > :would consider this to be unacceptable. > E >   This assumes we use the identical configuration and the identicaloF >   translation mechanisms, of course.  And having seen ample evidenceF >   of the designs of various x86 applications -- timing loops, directF >   hardware access, etc -- I'm not sure I'd generalize based on that. >   6 It does but any otimism you might want to inject into 4 this discussion needs to be countered with the fact 4 that Intel have tried as much as they can to improve5 the performance of the x86 emulation but that it has u8 proved to be very hard to emulate x86 and other non ILP " binaries into an ILP architecture.  D >   Oh, and the existing IA-64 Merced systems are not the target forG >   the OpenVMS port.  We will certainly be using these for the initial.E >   work on the port, but I'd expect the current Merced boxes will be F >   replaced with updated boxes.  See my references to OpenVMS running5 >   on the ProLiant DL590 elsewhere in the newsgroup.c >   < Yes but there is nothing in Mckinley for example that would 8 lead anyone to believe that emulated code would run any 9 faster than the overall improvements in performance that  8 it will deliver. So for example if Mckinley is 2x faster6 than Itanium then the current x86 emulation will also 8 run 2x faster or for some apps at Pentium 200 Mhz speed.  9 Now this may be good enough performance for some apps but 5 it does depend very much on the proportion of apps on 8 the new platform that have to be translated/emulated and; the number that are native. If all your apps are translateda8 then this will be a huge problem if 99% are native then  it will not.  6 Running Oracle on a CPU that was in effect delivering 5 200 Mhz Pentium levels of performance because Oracle r5 hadn't ported native would I suggest be unacceptable - to most of you customers.   b  9 The biggest job that Compaq has is to try to ensure that o5 the translator/emulator never gets used in anger. It c4 remains to be seen if Compaq have the ability to do  this.   8 > :It is also not possible to draw parallels between the6 > :experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since care5 > :was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this.s > ? >   Alpha was not particularly designed with emulation in mind.  >   9 No but it was designed to support similar protection etc   facilites as the VAX.a? >   Alpha targets clock speed, superscaler processing, and SMP.a > L >   Alpha was specifically designed to be operating system platform neutral,D >   but to have mechanisms to ease the support of operating systems. >    Specifically VMS.a  J >   Having features such as piles of data and piles of instructions all inJ >   flight tends to make emulation more interesting -- fast, when the codeG >   is all scheduled correctly.  Programmers working at this level mustcG >   account for the necessary memory barriers and the cache flushes and C >   trap shadows, and the instruction scheduling needed to keep the-I >   instruction units as busy as can be scheduled.  EPIC has some similariI >   "weirdnesses", but in different areas.  EPIC performance -- like thate4 >   of Alpha -- is sensitive to the code scheduling. > I >   Put another way, I'm not personally sure that the VAX-Alpha emulation1K >   performance has any particular bearing on VAX-IPF emulation performanceaI >   -- in either direction.  But I am sure that there are folks that wanti4 >   a functioning emulator/translator/"transulator". > 6 > :This has not happened for Alpha->IA64 because Intel: > :never made any provision for this in their architecture7 > :as is obvious from the some of the posts refering tow > :levels of protection etc. > H >   The EPIC (VLIW) design is very reminiscent to what used to be called >   the processor microcode. > 5 > :Now with IA64 you are exposing your customers to aT5 > :triple whammy which you didn't expose them to withr > :VAX->Alpha. > :t= > :1.     The EV7 will probably be a faster CPU than the IA64 < > :       CPU that you migrate to so even native compilation: > :       may result in a peformance drop. This wasn't the8 > :       case for VAX-Alpha except for some edge cases. > @ >   Compaq plans to have EV7 and systems based on EV7 available.  < Quite so people will be migrating off EV7 onto IA64 my point: exactly and there is no current indication that IA64 will 
 be faster.   > 6 > :2.     The delta between a natively compiled app on5 > :       IA64 and an emulated/translated one is hugem* > :       this wasn't the case with Alpha. > B >   I'm not sure there is enough information to substantiate that. >   Or to deny it.  < There is if you compare native ported x86 apps (on Alpha NT)A with FX!32 translated apps on Alpha, in some cases the differencee was not that marked. e  > Where as the delta between x86 (emulated code) and native IA64
 code is huge.s   > 6 > :3.     The Alpha designers were carefull to provide9 > :       good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couplew8 > :       of significant exceptions which were rectified7 > :       later) no such care has been taken for IA-64.  > A >   Interesting.  We haven't seen any of this.  (You clearly haveiC >   far more knowledge of the VAX, Alpha, and IPF architectures andrE >   the specific implementations.  Would you mind providing specifics B >   of where the resulting performance problems will lurk in IPF?) >   < Page protection for example. 8bit in VAX and Alpha I assume # that Alpha has 8 because Vax has 8.t  6 5 in IA64 requiring you to use the additional IPF key 2 protection registers which may or may not cause a  performance hit.  - Of course 8bit could have been accidental in (0 which case I withdraw my "carefull" and replace  it with "lucky".   Regardsm Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectc   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 07:48:14 -0700* From: polato@igi.pd.cnr.it (Sandro Polato) Subject: ODS-5 and parse_style= Message-ID: <2af2b3d8.0108220648.749312e1@posting.google.com>c  
 Ciao a tutti.t  E Do you know whether there is a way to force the uppercase in the file : name when I create it, for example, by a fortran program ?  E I know that I can force DCL to use only uppercase after the command :n# SET PROCESS/PARSE_STYLE=TRADITIONALV. but the scope seems to be limited to only DCL.   Thanks in advancer  
 Sandro Polatod   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 07:21:52 -0700  From: nigl@efman.nl (Franc Nigl)/ Subject: Re: Printing in different output traysd= Message-ID: <7b613313.0108220621.5907ade4@posting.google.com>.  s Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> wrote in message news:<210820011106016795%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>...wE > In article <7b613313.0108160535.5d722b02@posting.google.com>, Francs > Nigl <nigl@efman.nl> wrote:w > J > > We're using DCPS V1.8 and a HP 8150 (with 8 output trays) on a VMS 7.3J > > system. According to the specs it should be possible to print a job to; > > different output trays (/PARAM=OUTPUT_TRAY=MAILBOX_xx).l > G > You should upgrade to DCPS V2.0, which offers full support for the HPP > LaserJet 8150 printer. >   D Well yes... and I've checked the libraries which are coming with theF DCPS-kit V2.0 and no mentioning of the 8150 in the module overview... F so I suspected that this wasn't helping at all.. I've found a V2.0 kit; and checked it... it is working too on V2.0 you're right...    Francr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:31:18 -0400 0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>/ Subject: Re: Printing in different output traysa; Message-ID: <220820011131182808%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>t  C In article <7b613313.0108220621.5907ade4@posting.google.com>, Franch Nigl <nigl@efman.nl> wrote:p  F > Well yes... and I've checked the libraries which are coming with theH > DCPS-kit V2.0 and no mentioning of the 8150 in the module overview... H > so I suspected that this wasn't helping at all.. I've found a V2.0 kit= > and checked it... it is working too on V2.0 you're right...m  F The HP LaserJet 8000, 8100 and 8150 all use the device control modulesE with "8000" in their names.  Especially with similar models, we often D use the same modules and model-specific code, if any, is embedded inE the module.  So, looking at the names of modules is not a good way toh) see if a particular printer is supported.t   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Compaq Computer Corporationo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:28:03 +0100k* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>( Subject: Re: Printing Through A Firewall, Message-ID: <9lvqek$19hq@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  = "Paul Anderson" <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> wrote in messages5 news:210820011123510998%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com...h  K > > Is there anyway to lock down the outgoing port number to just one port?i >iH > You must specify the printer's correct port number, in this case 9100,I > in DCPS$STARTUP.COM.  This number will not change, so I'm confused withh2 > your reference to port numbers of 1100 and 1101.  G I assume he means the local port number, which is probably unspecified.-N Normally it's not important but it would make the firewall rule more specific:T i.e. "Allow outgoing from x to 9100", rather than "Allow outgoing from any to 9100".   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:56:35 +01000% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r$ Subject: Some postive points I hope.8 Message-ID: <jgt6otk2aabmjk68tgp7j326v6njsqsvpj@4ax.com>  D As many will have gathered I work for a large US multinational whichD one upon a time ran almost its entire business on VMS and still runsE substantial ERP applications on it. I am in DECNET area 60 and at onekE time most of the areas between 1 and 100 existed. Only about 15 areasrC are still active worldwide but that's still moderately substantial.fC Most of the company's senior management came up through the companytD and well remember 'VAX' systems as being far more reliable than muchC of the stuff we have today. As a result they are sympathetic to VMS E and have backed looking at ways to extend our use of VMS if it can be ! shown to be good for the company.e  E Just yesterday I attended a presentation on some of the work that oureC manufacturing teams have been doing with MS Access as a front end -s; don't laugh - its database might be crap but as a front end E development tool talking to a backend database such as RDB or DBMS oriC Oracle (or even SQL Server) it isn't too bad. The results were evennF more impressive than I'd expected  (I'd been following the project butE turns out far more was done that I'd thought) and went down very welldC with senior management. This is the sort of thing we need to extendfD the life of ManMan and avoid the expensive need to move to somethingE like SAP to help with B2B, links to PC front ends, web etc etc. Given'D the success of our other projects in this area so far it is entirelyA possible to argue that we can stick with ManMan for 5 to 10 years A without losing any benefits of a more modern system, at a greatly 3 reduced cost and on proven highly reliable systems.e  F So far I have had backing for every small step forward (after years of= VMS retreat within the company) and have had discussions with A management up to and including directors and the CIO. They reallyrF don't want  the enormous financial implications and problems caused byD a SAP move (and we have some plants piloting it so we know all about6 it) if a demonstrably viable alternative is available.  B From a technical standpoint, everything has gone very well. The UKF VAX=>alpha transition was smooth, web enabling of stuff has impressed,D PC front ends are nice, our Extranet project for suppliers linked inC as easily to the VMS systems as to NT or Unix and we have talked tom other companies doing the same.   F So shortly some more decisions will likely be taken: Delay SAP furtherD (perhaps indefinitely) enhancing what we have or bite the bullet andB do it globally over the next few years. I won't make that decisionA obviously but I do have input to it. I have to be able to say, ifsE arguing for an indefinite extension of the VMS/ManMan systems, that Ie> can guarantee (as much as you ever can) that ManMan/VMS/OracleE products etc will still be front-line in 5 years time - that is stilllC considered suitable for new plant installations). In other words we C make a decision based on definitely viable for 5 years and expected C viable for 10 so that we're  not forced into a decision. And that's F why I'm having some difficulties right now. because someone's stuck an< enforced platform change right in the middle and key productF availability on it is still in question. Yes I know roadmaps would sayB I should be fine but roadmaps won't cut it on their own. Still I'mB continuing to work on this but its got a lot harder but maybe thisE background might help some understand my position.  I could go into a ) lot more detail but not in a public post.l  A To VMS engineering and management: You keep working internally toaE improve things and I'll keep moving forward within my company. I know D that many of the issues I have raised are being taken very seriouslyE and I look forward to positive news. But  I need it fairly soon folks D as my phone could ring with a call from some key decision makers any time.  -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 06:26:45 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.3 Message-ID: <JQ2FQPs0JzV3@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  ` In article <jgt6otk2aabmjk68tgp7j326v6njsqsvpj@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  H > So shortly some more decisions will likely be taken: Delay SAP furtherF > (perhaps indefinitely) enhancing what we have or bite the bullet andD > do it globally over the next few years. I won't make that decisionC > obviously but I do have input to it. I have to be able to say, iftG > arguing for an indefinite extension of the VMS/ManMan systems, that I6@ > can guarantee (as much as you ever can) that ManMan/VMS/OracleG > products etc will still be front-line in 5 years time - that is still E > considered suitable for new plant installations). In other words weoE > make a decision based on definitely viable for 5 years and expectediE > viable for 10 so that we're  not forced into a decision. And that'sdH > why I'm having some difficulties right now. because someone's stuck an> > enforced platform change right in the middle and key productH > availability on it is still in question. Yes I know roadmaps would sayD > I should be fine but roadmaps won't cut it on their own. Still I'mD > continuing to work on this but its got a lot harder but maybe thisG > background might help some understand my position.  I could go into a + > lot more detail but not in a public post.u  * Thank you for a comprehensive description.  F I would say _that_ would be something worth taking to Compaq -- to getI a written committment for the continued availability of new Alpha systemsdG (not refurbished) over that time frame.  If it happens to be their nextlG design which is rumored to take an in-cabinet architecture change, thatt0 should not be too expensive for them to support.  E Of course, they might ask for a minimum committment on the number you  will buy in that period :-)c   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:26:13 GMTp& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com>( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.= Message-ID: <FxNg7.45202$2d6.8087634@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>o  J In the past few years, my Company too has been backing off the mad dash toL get away from VMS.  In fact, we have invested quite a lot in converting fromL VAX to AlphaVMS lately.  This weekend, we performed a large scale, corporateL Disaster Recovery test.  We took all of our backup tapes and restored aroundJ 100 Databases and applications on standby hardware in another state.  ThisF included a Couple of IBM Mainframes, dozens of Sun Solaris  and Compaq) Alpha/Unix systems,  and our VMS Cluster.n  1 First up,  ahead of schedule was the VMS Cluster. 2 Next up, on schedule were the Compaq Unix systems.E Then came the IBM Mainframes, with a few problems and somewhat behinds	 schedule. K Lastly, with all kinds of problems (and some very sleep deprived sysadmins)  came the Solaris systems.h  J The relevance of this was not lost on management.  I even pointed out thatI if we could have remote cluster nodes, the VMS systems would have been uppK before the other guys even knew there was a disaster.   However, that wouldI- not help us since all systems work as a unit.   F So far, I have not heard too many cries of concern about the demise ofK Alpha.  I have been extolling the positive aspects, but the general feeling J is we have a few years to decide what to do before we need to decide on an Alpha replacement.  ? I sure hope Compaq doesn't let me down on this port to Itanium.     2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:jgt6otk2aabmjk68tgp7j326v6njsqsvpj@4ax.com... >sF > As many will have gathered I work for a large US multinational whichF > one upon a time ran almost its entire business on VMS and still runsG > substantial ERP applications on it. I am in DECNET area 60 and at onecG > time most of the areas between 1 and 100 existed. Only about 15 areasdE > are still active worldwide but that's still moderately substantial.vE > Most of the company's senior management came up through the companylF > and well remember 'VAX' systems as being far more reliable than muchE > of the stuff we have today. As a result they are sympathetic to VMS G > and have backed looking at ways to extend our use of VMS if it can bed# > shown to be good for the company.o > G > Just yesterday I attended a presentation on some of the work that our E > manufacturing teams have been doing with MS Access as a front end -p= > don't laugh - its database might be crap but as a front endoG > development tool talking to a backend database such as RDB or DBMS oraE > Oracle (or even SQL Server) it isn't too bad. The results were evenbH > more impressive than I'd expected  (I'd been following the project butG > turns out far more was done that I'd thought) and went down very wellrE > with senior management. This is the sort of thing we need to extend F > the life of ManMan and avoid the expensive need to move to somethingG > like SAP to help with B2B, links to PC front ends, web etc etc. GiventF > the success of our other projects in this area so far it is entirelyC > possible to argue that we can stick with ManMan for 5 to 10 years C > without losing any benefits of a more modern system, at a greatlye5 > reduced cost and on proven highly reliable systems.  >cH > So far I have had backing for every small step forward (after years of? > VMS retreat within the company) and have had discussions withcC > management up to and including directors and the CIO. They really H > don't want  the enormous financial implications and problems caused byF > a SAP move (and we have some plants piloting it so we know all about8 > it) if a demonstrably viable alternative is available. >oD > From a technical standpoint, everything has gone very well. The UKH > VAX=>alpha transition was smooth, web enabling of stuff has impressed,F > PC front ends are nice, our Extranet project for suppliers linked inE > as easily to the VMS systems as to NT or Unix and we have talked toi! > other companies doing the same.  > H > So shortly some more decisions will likely be taken: Delay SAP furtherF > (perhaps indefinitely) enhancing what we have or bite the bullet andD > do it globally over the next few years. I won't make that decisionC > obviously but I do have input to it. I have to be able to say, ifiG > arguing for an indefinite extension of the VMS/ManMan systems, that Is@ > can guarantee (as much as you ever can) that ManMan/VMS/OracleG > products etc will still be front-line in 5 years time - that is stillCE > considered suitable for new plant installations). In other words werE > make a decision based on definitely viable for 5 years and expectedsE > viable for 10 so that we're  not forced into a decision. And that's>H > why I'm having some difficulties right now. because someone's stuck an> > enforced platform change right in the middle and key productH > availability on it is still in question. Yes I know roadmaps would sayD > I should be fine but roadmaps won't cut it on their own. Still I'mD > continuing to work on this but its got a lot harder but maybe thisG > background might help some understand my position.  I could go into an+ > lot more detail but not in a public post.  > C > To VMS engineering and management: You keep working internally toaG > improve things and I'll keep moving forward within my company. I knowlF > that many of the issues I have raised are being taken very seriouslyG > and I look forward to positive news. But  I need it fairly soon folkssF > as my phone could ring with a call from some key decision makers any > time.e > -- > Alan >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:59:53 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.8 Message-ID: <vsa7ot4j7dkjtaio5mmqh4vn9n4ermjpr8@4ax.com>  B On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:26:13 GMT, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote:     >a2 >First up,  ahead of schedule was the VMS Cluster.  @ In our own disaster recovery tests we had the Alphas back onlineD serving all apps within five hours of being handed the systems (most? of that was restoring tapes). Partial availability of our HP-UXe= systems took 11 hours with almost 23 hours until all problemspF resolved. The NT team took 48 hours to restore a limited service and 4C days to recover everything. This was not lost on management either!        -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:43:10 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>c( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.( Message-ID: <9m0qun$hsf$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:JQ2FQPs0JzV3@eisner.encompasserve.org...m   ...o  H > I would say _that_ would be something worth taking to Compaq -- to getK > a written committment for the continued availability of new Alpha systemsuI > (not refurbished) over that time frame.  If it happens to be their next I > design which is rumored to take an in-cabinet architecture change, that 2 > should not be too expensive for them to support. >CG > Of course, they might ask for a minimum committment on the number youC > will buy in that period :-)d  ? Just don't forget to include explicitly in the contract all the7L non-performance penalty/remedies you would need, to avoid the possibility ofD unpleasant and potentially unreliable court processes if the written 'commitments' fail to be met.p   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:13:30 +0200c5 From: Alexander Eisenhuth <stacom@stacom-software.de>b Subject: STl Port on AXP2 Message-ID: <3B834D8A.47CE6DD9@stacom-software.de>   Hello,  K had anyone tried to use the STL (www.stlport.org) on VMS. Which  version ofoO OS/Copiler is needed? Are there any sources containing information on that. I'mP thankful for any help or hints.      Regards Alexandert   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:16:47 +0200.2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: STl Port on AXP; Message-ID: <3b83daef.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>w  6 Alexander Eisenhuth (stacom@stacom-software.de) wrote:I > had anyone tried to use the STL (www.stlport.org) on VMS. Which versiontJ > of OS/Copiler is needed? Are there any sources containing information on+ > that. I'm thankful for any help or hints.n  ) STL comes as part of DEC^H^H^HCompaq C++.d  I I only used it once (when looking into the STL in general), but AFAIR theq& implementation was up to the standard.   cu,d   Martin -- lG                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmere4  UNIX is user friendly.    | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG  It's just selective about |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/s;  who its friends are.      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.dek   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 04:56:24 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere3 Message-ID: <$+tCbC6lE1oo@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  Z In article <3B8311B0.8ED27AB@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  ; > Exactly where should VMS-related discussions be moved to?f  N ==============================================================================T In article <3B8105FB.F23DC0DD@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > Nic Clews wrote:  G > Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your owntF > newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneE > post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I've0
 > forgotten).%N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:20:57 GMTeB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere5 Message-ID: <JsNg7.10291$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>d  ) On 22 Aug 2001 04:56:24 -0500, in articlem? <$+tCbC6lE1oo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > [ >In article <3B8311B0.8ED27AB@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t > < >> Exactly where should VMS-related discussions be moved to? >-O >==============================================================================tU >In article <3B8105FB.F23DC0DD@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:p >> Nic Clews wrote:  >lH >> Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownG >> newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someonelF >> post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I've >> forgotten).O >==============================================================================o  E Actually, what may be a better idea is to follow the example of otherhG newsgroups and put forward a proposal to create comp.os.vms.discuss foriH political/policy discussions and leave comp.os.vms for technical issues.  H What do other people think ? Note that I am _NOT_ offering to drive thisJ proposal, but am offering it as a suggestion in case others want to create a formal proposal.   Simon.   -- u; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPrK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aeE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.c   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:09:09 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere3 Message-ID: <wl+nxshGTbv+@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  z In article <JsNg7.10291$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:  G > Actually, what may be a better idea is to follow the example of othereI > newsgroups and put forward a proposal to create comp.os.vms.discuss for J > political/policy discussions and leave comp.os.vms for technical issues. > J > What do other people think ? Note that I am _NOT_ offering to drive thisL > proposal, but am offering it as a suggestion in case others want to create > a formal proposal.  4 The "powers that be" frown on having any newsgroups:   		This.That.Theother.Subtopice   at the same time as:   		This.That.Theother  # also exists.  Pascal ran into this.n  A So absent any ability to overcome "the system", one would have tooE split comp.os.vms into comp.os.vms.technical and comp.os.vms.politicse (or other equal-level names).r  D I think that would be bad at this time as lots of people come _back_E to comp.os.vms, and when it isn't there they would presume the worst.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:37:48 -0500o* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Take it elsewhere- Message-ID: <0033000032984521000002L012*@MHS>s   =0AHow about alt.flamage.vms?f   :^)    WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET * > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:15 AMF > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET  > Subject: RE: Take it elsewhere >e >SE > In article <JsNg7.10291$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>, Simon ClubleyM8 > <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes: >y8 > > Actually, what may be a better idea is to follow the > example of other3 > > newsgroups and put forward a proposal to createl > comp.os.vms.discuss forp: > > political/policy discussions and leave comp.os.vms for > technical issues.  > >a> > > What do other people think ? Note that I am _NOT_ offering > to drive thish? > > proposal, but am offering it as a suggestion in case otherst > want to create > > a formal proposal. >y6 > The "powers that be" frown on having any newsgroups: >S' >           This.That.Theother.Subtopici >g > at the same time as: >h >           This.That.Theother >r% > also exists.  Pascal ran into this.  > C > So absent any ability to overcome "the system", one would have togH > split comp.os.vms into comp.os.vms.technical and comp.os.vms.politics=   > (or other equal-level names).  >hF > I think that would be bad at this time as lots of people come _back_H > to comp.os.vms, and when it isn't there they would presume the worst.=   >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:28:56 +0200 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere& Message-ID: <3B83EBD7.FA8C6554@gmx.ch>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > F > I think that would be bad at this time as lots of people come _back_G > to comp.os.vms, and when it isn't there they would presume the worst.v   I agree.   D.   VMS the Return?m   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:27:50 +0200n, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere& Message-ID: <3B83EB96.9F7F8080@gmx.ch>   Simon Clubley wrote:   > What do other people think ?  D I think that (but today) I try to never answer non-technical relatedG posts. When there is something really wrong, as it occurred a few weeks/F ago when someone posted an internal use only memo in here, I send mail% privately to the author, if possible.   G The greatest French speaking forum about the Macintosh, fr.comp.sys.macfD (aka fcsm) is dead because of this kind of noise. 300 to 400 posts a7 day, among them 5% are technical stuff. I unsubscribed.i  ( (you asked our advice, I gave my advice)   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:26:45 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>kJ Subject: Re: The Alpha Systems Customer Update will no longer be published( Message-ID: <3B83B311.FF5D8AA9@ohio.edu>  { At least some versions of Macintosh OS have shipped with Acrobat Reader (perhaps old version) in the "Applications" folder.o  #                                 RDP      Michael Kraemer wrote:   > In article <y4elqej3s6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:? > > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e > > K > > > I was under the impression that the VMS enewsletter only came in PDF.a8 > > > There is no supported PDF reader shipped with VMS. > > M > > There is no operating system that I know of that ships with a PDF reader.y@ > > VMS at least ships with the freeware CD, which contains one. >2 > So does AIX. >  > > Good luck on5 > > doing this with a standalone Unix or Windoze box.o > >I
 > >       Jan-   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:47:16 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)oJ Subject: Re: The Alpha Systems Customer Update will no longer be published3 Message-ID: <S+1DVhAVdWMI@eisner.encompasserve.org>x  E I regularly find the _latest_ (at the time of release) Acrobat ReaderVB on the MacOS distribution discs.  Typically you have to install it# separately, like CSWS on Alpha VMS.w  X In article <3B83B311.FF5D8AA9@ohio.edu>, "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:} > At least some versions of Macintosh OS have shipped with Acrobat Reader (perhaps old version) in the "Applications" folder.u > % >                                 RDPe >  >  > Michael Kraemer wrote: >  >> In article <y4elqej3s6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:a@ >> > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> >L >> > > I was under the impression that the VMS enewsletter only came in PDF.9 >> > > There is no supported PDF reader shipped with VMS.  >> >N >> > There is no operating system that I know of that ships with a PDF reader.A >> > VMS at least ships with the freeware CD, which contains one.b >> >> So does AIX.p >> >> > Good luck onm6 >> > doing this with a standalone Unix or Windoze box. >> > >> >       Jan >  > --D > ==================================================================D > Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerD > piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesD > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University >  >  --  N ==============================================================================T In article <3B8105FB.F23DC0DD@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > Nic Clews wrote:  G > Whilst I followed poor nettiquete with this, why not ask for your ownbF > newsgroup to be set up? I would suggest alt.vms-is-dead (can someoneE > post instructions of where to propose this, I used to know but I'vea
 > forgotten).iN ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:20:44 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded* Message-ID: <3B834F3C.A340805@bigfoot.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  D > (Would such a person please engage David in email to keep him from8 > filling the newsgroup with the same one-note litany ?)   Mr. Kilgallen,  D I may not me the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I can recognizeG futility when I see it.  If it has not occurred to you yet, let me takeiG this opportunity to clue you in. Mr. Dachtera is out of work, therefored he:r  ' 1) Has more time on his hands than you.r  A 2) Is quite annoyed by the reason he perceives he is out of work.M  G 3) Can produce orders of magnitude more verbiage per given unit of timeuF than you can, unless you plan on quitting your job to devote your timeE fully to this newsgroup, or indeed use company time to do so in which(D case I suspect "quitting" would not be the operative word earlier in this sentence.  F To put it plainly, in a pissing contest, he would drown you due to the; simple fact that he has many hundreds of gallons more piss.o  / Some similar situations having the same result:t  / 1) Attempting to make any money by suing a bum.l 2) Spitting into the wind.< 3) Expecting to pass anybody in a Geo Metro on the Autobahn.  E I hope this helps.  Telling him to stop will only make his convictione= that much stronger.  You understand how that works don't you?i     HM   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:17:56 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded8 Message-ID: <htp6ot88gqqvcs85315v2btl98gofs93bq@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:52:40 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:/   >Alan Greig wrote:I >> I can quite believe they didn't tell VMS engineering but DEC employeesiG >> (authorized to say so or not) were telling (at least some) ISVs that I >> they did not plan to port VMS. Recall this was the period when Digitala4 >> sales brochures referred to 'legacy VMS systems"  >'K >Wasn't Ken O still in charge at the time Alpha projects were begun ? I waspL >under the impression that Bobby GQ Palmer took the helm well into the Alpha; >project, just before Alpha machines started to go on sale.  >eN >If the above is correct, then your statement would mean that it was under theB >tenure of Ken O that the "Digital is actively killing VMS" began. >uG >Under Ken O, I only remember the exhorbitant prices and of course, bada5 >marketing. (but not active attempts at killing VMS).:    A Yes, while  Ken was still in charge a battle raged and I think he D actually said at one point "I didn't have another child j(Unix) just? to kill VMS" or similar. I think he was well aware that certainiE factions were actively trying to kill VMS off. It is possibly down tow@ Olsen that the talk of no port to Alpha was quashed and a public9 announcement made. It has to be said that some members ofuC info-vax/c.o.v. , compuserve, bix, cix  etc forums (and some of thecF names here were regulars in many of these places) were *not* in favourB of an untried Alpha port. They thought it would be better to stickF with improved VAX systems. There was an arguable point there but I was on the Alpha side,  C After Ken was forced out the anti-VMS brigade seemed to have a freevC lunch for several years. I'm fairly sure even Terry has reported int@ SKC that the people in charge at the time have admitted that theB "Affinity" project was designed to migrate VMS users to NT not theB other way round. So therefore the DEC NT sales team that argued weC should choose Alpha/NT over VMS were not knocked-down  because they B were following company policy. Yes they were far less tactful thanC they should have been but they were on-message. Capellas recognized:B the financial disaster that Affinity had been but did he decide toE rebuild VMS or just hold the fort for a while longer to keep the cashe cow alive just a bit longer?   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:26:27 +0100q% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded8 Message-ID: <9pq6otg0j1s8ope2108k9sbrlimfse9rde@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:32:08 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  wrote:     >aG >> Please provide references if you can to where the messages about thecF >> death of VMS were coming from. Name the person(s) who used the word >> 'legacy'.  C Several DEC brochures (again from around 1990 period) used the word D 'legacy' in front of VMS. Again a number of people complained and anD order went out that the legacy word must not be used in front of VMS9 in DEC literature. But by then more damage had been done.   E I used to have email archives going back to around 1982 but misplacedcD the tape they were on between my last two employers. I still hope itE will turn up (or I'l get access to other backups) because it was verylD handy for questions like these. I'd been told that my old universityE archives would be written to CD for me just before they shut down thefF last VMS system. Unfortunately that didn't happen either but I'm still working on it.     >-I >Responding only to your suggestion that rumors of VMS's impending demiserH >have been the product of uninformed or disgruntled low-level employees: >DJ >1.  Before becoming Don Capellas, Capellas himself described the plans to  >EOL VMS at an internal meeting. >aJ >2.  From a completely independent but absolutely reliable (and definitelyJ >not low-level) source, a couple of years ago there was a plan in place to >freeze VMS as of 2003.h > J >The fact that those plans got changed before actual implementation is not >entirely reassuring.t >S >- bille >) >u   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:08:22 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>V( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded( Message-ID: <9lvspi$i7o$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:htp6ot88gqqvcs85315v2btl98gofs93bq@4ax.com...   ...g   > Capellas recognized-D > the financial disaster that Affinity had been but did he decide toG > rebuild VMS or just hold the fort for a while longer to keep the cashg > cow alive just a bit longer?  K Did you by any chance mean that *Pfeiffer* recognized that Affinity was notjL the way to go?  There seems to be some indication that he did, but that thisG attitude got canned when he did.  Capellas certainly has not seemed any=J friend to VMS, from all indications from the get-go:  the best that can beI said of him is that he didn't implement the plan to kill VMS a year or so K ago, but he sure as hell hasn't given VMS any significant resources to growpJ with and certainly did nothing to try to soften the impact of the decisionK to drop Alpha (let alone reconsider that decision based upon the inevitable=4 negative effect it would have had even if softened).   - bill   >- > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:29:29 +0100m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>F( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded8 Message-ID: <bt17ots1hqiig3jl9vh6bimf9oq8bsm3a6@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:08:22 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>o wrote:   >l3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message.  L >Did you by any chance mean that *Pfeiffer* recognized that Affinity was notM >the way to go?  There seems to be some indication that he did, but that this=  E Yes, I guess I did but Capellas I'm sure agreed that Affinity had not. worked.1  H >attitude got canned when he did.  Capellas certainly has not seemed anyK >friend to VMS, from all indications from the get-go:  the best that can ben  F The strange appearance wearing a VMS license plate around his neck canA be read in any way you choose and perhaps that was the intention.   J >said of him is that he didn't implement the plan to kill VMS a year or soL >ago, but he sure as hell hasn't given VMS any significant resources to growK >with and certainly did nothing to try to soften the impact of the decision.L >to drop Alpha (let alone reconsider that decision based upon the inevitable5 >negative effect it would have had even if softened).I  E And here perhaps might just be one area VMS management slipped up on.s> Given the intention to phase out Alpha they may have convincedA themselves and Capellas that the backlash could be contained moreFE easily than is actually the case in order to concentrate on the port.oA I have no evidence for this but, given human nature, it would not B surprise me if Marcello (faced with a decision effectively alreadyC made) concentrated on the positives with Capellas. Concentrating onc< the negatives might not be a good career move within Compaq.   >s >- billw >  >> >> --< >> Alan9 >u   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:00:54 -0400>5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded2 Message-ID: <V1Og7.519$bB1.29907@news.cpqcorp.net>  @ David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3B8317CC.1F146BD@fsi.net>... >c7 >So, no - I'm not going - I'm not a rich guy, like you.h  , Wow.  Larry's rich?  Who would have thought?   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:12:01 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded3 Message-ID: <N9j5IMgQ2IsU@eisner.encompasserve.org>T  j In article <V1Og7.519$bB1.29907@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:B > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3B8317CC.1F146BD@fsi.net>... >>8 >>So, no - I'm not going - I'm not a rich guy, like you. > . > Wow.  Larry's rich?  Who would have thought?  C Not Larry or Larry's wife, but things must be clearer from Chicago.w   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:01:53 -0400+ From: randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew)l( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded, Message-ID: <2001Aug22.100153.13099@srs.gov>  M In article <rdeininger-2108012256490001@user-2ivealm.dialup.mindspring.com>, -! rdeininger@mindspring.com says...S >.G >The shareholder meeting is next week.  The outcome could be a complete H >change of control of the company.  Since I've NEVER heard anything good= >about CA, I can only assume that would be a welcome outcome.w  @ When CA bought out ASK in 1994, they saved Ingres. ASK was going4 bankrupt, and Ingres was going south at a fast rate.  B CA has treated their Ingres customers pretty well and has poured a/ considerable amount of development into Ingres.m  @ Unfortunately, Ingres is much like VMS in that it has never been? properly marketed. I think that it is somewhat appropriate thatk we are running Ingres on VMS...    Randy Burlew   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:31:43 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded8 Message-ID: <kch7otk1b30hgcfg7sun9u0rvfel40c29l@4ax.com>  D On 22 Aug 2001 10:01:53 -0400, randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew) wrote:   >aA >When CA bought out ASK in 1994, they saved Ingres. ASK was goings5 >bankrupt, and Ingres was going south at a fast rate.m >sC >CA has treated their Ingres customers pretty well and has poured aa0 >considerable amount of development into Ingres.  < And we are ManMan users - a former ASK product and CA, afterE initially, trying to move customers to other CA ERP products, started-F developing ManMan actively again and selling it to new customers. This< year's CAMUS Europe was quite positive except that the Alpha@ announcement came right in the middle of it and CA execs did not? believe me until I pointed them at the announcement on the web.     A >Unfortunately, Ingres is much like VMS in that it has never beene@ >properly marketed. I think that it is somewhat appropriate that  >we are running Ingres on VMS... >0
 >Randy Burlew0   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:24:34 -07002 From: baxter@rockymountainnews.com (Robert Baxter)" Subject: UCX LPD printing problems= Message-ID: <7ab9624f.0108220824.4aaa732d@posting.google.com>t  C I have been struggling with this for a few days now and can't quitecA seem to get this thing to work.  I have read investigated severalm similar posts to no avail.E I am trying to set up LPD on my OpenVMS system.  The ultimate goal ismA to print from an HP MPE system (at another facility, not under myoC control) to the Alpha printers.  In the interim I am trying to testnD print from a PC using QVT net.  Whenever I try to print from QVTNET,* the print files end up "retained on error"   Here are the facts:1     ucx sho versionm  @   Digital TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 - ECO 4?   on a COMPAQ AlphaServer DS20E 500 MHzP running OpenVMS V7.1-23   ucx sho service lpdd  F Service             Port  Proto    Process          Address            Stater  F LPD                  515  TCP      UCX$LPD          0.0.0.0             Enabled  < I have set up several queues and printcap entries (using mcr UCX$LPRSETUP):     # LOCAL PRINTERS #. UCX$LPD_QUEUE:\g         :lp=UCX$LPD_QUEUE:\t         :sd=UCX$LPD_SPOOL: #  HP5000|hp5000:\n.         :lf=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/HP5000.LOG:\         :lp=HP5000:\)         :sd=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/HP5000:n #c HP5000_LPD|hp5000_lpd:\ 2         :lf=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/HP5000_LPD.LOG:\         :lp=HP5000_LPD:\-         :sd=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/HP5000_LPD:d #y TEST_LPD|test_lpd:\i0         :lf=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/TEST_LPD.LOG:\         :lp=TEST_LPD:\+         :sd=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/TEST_LPD:e #i 078S|078s:\b,         :lf=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/078S.LOG:\         :lp=078S:\'         :sd=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/078S:P #a  ! My queues are defined as follows:    sho queue hp5000/fullr Generic printer queue HP5000E   /GENERIC=(HP5000_LPD) /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)    sho queue hp5000_lpd/full F Printer queue HP5000_LPD, idle, on DRAX01::"hp5000_c30d:9100", mounted	 form LAND@  (stock=DEFAULT)G   /AUTOSTART_ON=(DRAX01::"hp5000_c30d:9100",DRAX02::"hp5000_c30d:9100")e0   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FLAG,FORM=PORT (stock=DEFAULT),TRAILER)1   /LIBRARY=HP5000_FORMS Lowercase /OWNER=[SYSTEM]A /PROCESSOR=UCX$TELNETSYM<   /NO_INITIAL_FF /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR   sho queue test_lpd/fullV< Printer queue TEST_LPD, idle, on DRAX11::"ucx$queue:hp5000", mounted form DEFAULT9   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) Lowercase  /OWNER=[SYSTEM]b8   /PROCESSOR=UCX$TELNETSYM /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)   sho queue 078s/full  Generic printer queue 078S6   /GENERIC=(RELAY01_078S,RELAY02_078S) /OWNER=[SYSTEM]   /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)k    A Whenever I try to print to any of these queues I get "retained onr error":u   sho queue /dev/by/all/fullC Server queue UCX$LPD_QUEUE, idle, on DRAX02::, mounted form DEFAULTsA   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /NOENABLE_GENERIC>F   /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=UCX$LPD_SMB /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)   /RETAIN=ERRORg  4   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status4   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------?     813  CFA028          UCX_LPD           1  Retained on errori,        %UCX-F-NOMSG, Message number 030AEB748          Submitted 22-AUG-2001 09:48:43.27 /FORM=DEFAULT /PARAM=("hp5000")=          /PRIORITY=100B          File: _$1$DUA11:[SYS0.UCX_LPD.HP5000]CFA028.DAT;1 /DELETEA          Completed 22-AUG-2001 09:48:43.32 on queue UCX$LPD_QUEUEv  ?     814  CFA029          UCX_LPD           1  Retained on errorv,        %UCX-F-NOMSG, Message number 030AEB748          Submitted 22-AUG-2001 09:48:54.00 /FORM=DEFAULT /PARAM=("hp5000_lpd")C          /PRIORITY=100F          File: _$1$DUA11:[SYS0.UCX_LPD.HP5000_LPD]CFA029.DAT;1 /DELETEA          Completed 22-AUG-2001 09:48:54.02 on queue UCX$LPD_QUEUEr  ?     815  CFA030          UCX_LPD           1  Retained on erroro,        %UCX-F-NOMSG, Message number 030AEB748          Submitted 22-AUG-2001 09:49:04.40 /FORM=DEFAULT /PARAM=("test_lpd")=@         Completed 22-AUG-2001 09:49:04.42 on queue UCX$LPD_QUEUE  ?     816  CFA031          UCX_LPD           1  Retained on error=,        %UCX-F-NOMSG, Message number 030AEB9C8          Submitted 22-AUG-2001 09:49:17.64 /FORM=DEFAULT /PARAM=("078s")1          /PRIORITY=100@          File: _$1$DUA11:[SYS0.UCX_LPD.078S]CFA031.DAT;1 /DELETEA          Completed 22-AUG-2001 09:49:17.68 on queue UCX$LPD_QUEUEg  @ I looked up the 030AEB74: %UCX-F-LPD_UNPRTR, Unknown printer !AS=             and 030AEB9C %UCX-F-LPD_BADHOST, Unknown host !ASe  E I can set ent xxx /release/requeue=hp5000.  That will clear the entrydB from the queue, but the only thing that prints is the CFAxxx file,2 which is nothing but header information (no data).  F Please excuse this long post, but I wanted to provide all the relavent details.    So... Any advice???? Thanks all.   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2001 06:13:22 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)g- Subject: Re: UNIX on an AlphaServer 800 5/333a' Message-ID: <9lvii2$18d$1@joe.rice.edu>e  $ Nick Paszty (paszty@xoma.com) wrote: : hello.  D : we are running open vms on an AlphaServer 800 5/333.  what kind of- : UNIX os can be installed onto this machine?i   : tru64 UNIX : Digital UNIX  8 As you may know, Tru64 is the current brand name of what$ was Digital Unix, and Digital OSF/1.  E : does anyone have experience runing this combination?  any insights?n  A The comp.unix.tru64 newsgroup might be a better place to inquire.   < There are also Linux and *BSD variants available for ALPHAs.   --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:36:44 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)- Subject: Re: UNIX on an AlphaServer 800 5/33372 Message-ID: <gkQg7.535$bB1.29851@news.cpqcorp.net>  b In article <14ce1c21.0108211501.7d90fc4@posting.google.com>, paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty) writes:  7 :we are running open vms on an AlphaServer 800 5/333.  n9 :what kind of UNIX os can be installed onto this machine?i :b :tru64 UNIXi
 :Digital UNIXn  !   Two names, same UNIX product.  h  <   Various flavors of Linux are available for Alpha, as well.  D :does anyone have experience runing this combination?  any insights?  B   I'm sure there are folks that have used these and other variantsA   of UNIX here in the OpenVMS newsgroup, but an OpenVMS newsgroupa?   isn't necessarily the best spot for opinions on UNIX flavors.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:03:45 +0100n4 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>F Subject: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappearedA Message-ID: <998474523.20502.0.nnrp-01.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>i  5 Taken delivery of a nice new DS20E with ultra RA3000.e2 It arrived with 7.2-1, working, all disks visible.8 I upgraded to 7.3, and the RA3000 disks all disappeared. I've not seen any errors.    Help please, urgently.   Thanks,n
 Chris Sharman    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:10:14 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>oJ Subject: Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared8 Message-ID: <ma47otkql5iuqcnvlmev04ate7nueo8a4g@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:03:45 +0100, "Chris Sharman"u% <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote:e  6 >Taken delivery of a nice new DS20E with ultra RA3000.3 >It arrived with 7.2-1, working, all disks visible.t9 >I upgraded to 7.3, and the RA3000 disks all disappeared.  >I've not seen any errors.  @ Do the disks show up at console level? I hope you can solve thisC easily because this could demonstrate one of my major problems witheE the desupport of controllers recently announced (including the RA3000sD although the date  is June 2002 for your particular config). What ifA you upgrade VMS and your disks vanish or corrupt? The option of ahA controller firmware upgrade will not be available. If you have tolA solve the problem with any kind of patch I'd be panicky after mid6C 2002.. I trust you are aware of the desupport notice already issuedFB for the RA3000 even though t is still on sale? Can't recall if youE took part in that thread., Did Compaq actually tell you that there isdE a desupport notice already out when you bought it? If not I seriously ! hope I'm not first with the news.>   >Help please, urgently.r >  >Thanks, >Chris Sharman >h   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:14:13 +0100w% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> J Subject: Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared8 Message-ID: <dvd7otsbduldmudkenusk426f80bc94nu8@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:10:14 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a wrote:  4 >On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:03:45 +0100, "Chris Sharman"& ><chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote: >l7 >>Taken delivery of a nice new DS20E with ultra RA3000.w4 >>It arrived with 7.2-1, working, all disks visible.: >>I upgraded to 7.3, and the RA3000 disks all disappeared. >>I've not seen any errors.w >hA >Do the disks show up at console level? I hope you can solve thismD >easily because this could demonstrate one of my major problems withF >the desupport of controllers recently announced (including the RA3000E >although the date  is June 2002 for your particular config). What ifpB >you upgrade VMS and your disks vanish or corrupt? The option of a  E Chris I've just checked the current RA3000 specs and VMS 7.3 does notb- appear to be formally supported yet  (EVER??)o  e RA3000 Specifications    Protocol Support Ultra2/Ultra3  ) Open VMS V7.1, 7.1-2, 7.2, 7.2-1H1, 7.2-1t  < If you check the same specs for the RA8000/HSZ80 there is no restriction on VMS version.   & I've also  sent this in email but try   F SYSGEN> connect devicename:/noadapter/driver=sys$dkdriver and see whatF happens. This should force VMS to connect the drive even if it thoughtD there was a problem on autoconfig. No guarantee of it working thoughB and I've only used this with tapes never disks. Actually maybe youD need SYSMAN> IO CONNECT etc on Alpha as the help says) but I thought4 the SYSGEN command worked fine last time I tried it.      B >controller firmware upgrade will not be available. If you have toB >solve the problem with any kind of patch I'd be panicky after midD >2002.. I trust you are aware of the desupport notice already issuedC >for the RA3000 even though t is still on sale? Can't recall if yourF >took part in that thread., Did Compaq actually tell you that there isF >a desupport notice already out when you bought it? If not I seriously" >hope I'm not first with the news. >, >>Help please, urgently. >>	 >>Thanks,  >>Chris Sharmanr >>   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:26:56 +0100o4 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>S Subject: Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared - SOLVED A Message-ID: <998493915.28668.0.nnrp-01.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>2  9 > >>Taken delivery of a nice new DS20E with ultra RA3000.n6 > >>It arrived with 7.2-1, working, all disks visible.< > >>I upgraded to 7.3, and the RA3000 disks all disappeared. > >>I've not seen any errors.  > > C > >Do the disks show up at console level? I hope you can solve thiseF > >easily because this could demonstrate one of my major problems withH > >the desupport of controllers recently announced (including the RA3000G > >although the date  is June 2002 for your particular config). What if D > >you upgrade VMS and your disks vanish or corrupt? The option of a   Problem solved ...L Known problem: [TD 2928-CR] OpenVMS Alpha; System Boot Failure After Upgrade to V7.3e; sys$share:sys$icbm.exe got deleted in the 7.3 installation.cJ Recovered from 7.3 CD, installed, autoconfigured, autogen'ed, & all's well again.: Thanks to Simon Mills at VMS support, who also recommendedI http://ftp.digital.com.au/pub/ecoinfo/ecoinfo/a73.htm - good info which IS% hadn't seen so well presented before.t    G > Chris I've just checked the current RA3000 specs and VMS 7.3 does not / > appear to be formally supported yet  (EVER??)sH I've seen conflicting info on this - I'd presumed that it was older info< failing to list 7.3, rather than 7.3 explicitly unsupported.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:02:19 -0400i- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> % Subject: Re: V5.5-2 Password Recoverys( Message-ID: <3B839F4A.BAD3CE5D@ohio.edu>  C You can't.  If you have forgotten the password for every privileged E account, you can break into a system, as described in the FAQ, or youaD can SET any user's password, in the usual way with AUTHORIZE, from a privileged account.   #                                 RDPC     BigFish wrote:  E > Anyone remember how to recover a VMS version 5.5-2 password? If so,- > please share., > 
 > Ron Johnson5   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------   Date: 22 AUG 2001 15:11:06 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)% Subject: Re: V5.5-2 Password Recoveryr6 Message-ID: <22AUG01.15110641@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   BigFish wrote:  F -> Anyone remember how to recover a VMS version 5.5-2 password? If so, -> please share.  
 Others wrote:<   ->You can't.     $ SET NIT-PICK/ENABLEi  A You can't without resorting to brute force (trying every possibleoI password character combination). Read access to the SYSUAF.DAT file wouldiD be required. As an exercise, I found cracking a 6 character password. takes about 6 days on an Alphaserver 1200/533.   $ SET NIT-PICK/DISABLE   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:38:34 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)% Subject: Re: V5.5-2 Password Recoveryn2 Message-ID: <u6Sg7.560$bB1.30131@news.cpqcorp.net>  W In article <3B82DFA3.D0C41242@hotmail.com>, BigFish <johnsonronald@hotmail.com> writes:iD :Anyone remember how to recover a VMS version 5.5-2 password? If so, :please share.  K   The Purdy polynomial that is used to hash the password on OpenVMS -- the aG   polynomial is used to hash the password and not to encrypt it -- is aAH   deliberately chosen hash (not encryption) and was also chosen as beingL   theoretically difficult to reverse.  (I haven't recently checked with any G   theoretical mathematics gurus -- to see if there are now any newer orV,   better choices available.  But I digress.)  J   Accordingly, (privileged) access into the contents of the password file 2   and the use of brute-force attacks are the norm.  G   Depending on the particular situation -- a one-line question is oftengH   surprisingly difficult to answer, additional background and additionalH   context tends to help here -- you could use the procedure outlined in J   the OpenVMS FAQ to reset the password or (if you have it) you could use 5   another privileged username to reset this password.I    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:31:56 -0500/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)e Subject: Re: VMS jobs???- Message-ID: <PSBuSqVt0YLJ@cuebid.zko.dec.com>l  L > If there are VMS jobs within Compaq, why was I just on the phone late lastB > week with a VMS Ambassador that is now looking for employment?    D 	Well, for one thing, Ambassador <> VMS Engineering.  Only a few areG (perhaps 5 or so), and they tend to be folk who aren't based in Nashua.e  L Most Ambassadors work in the field, or for a customer support centre.  WhichI makes sense; their goal is to offer specialized VMS knowledge directly to7J the customer, which is something that most of us in New Hampshire can't doO (aside from the VMS Engineering Diamond Advocate program for larger customers).e   --    M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.comu   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:42:03 GMTtB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>( Subject: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?5 Message-ID: <fUMg7.10237$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>e  J Does anybody know of any moves to add a VMS/Alpha backend to GCC 3.x along( with any necessary changes to binutils ?   Simon.  J [PS: For the benefit of people without Unix knowledge, binutils is the GNUC package name given to tools like the GNU linker and GNU assembler.]s   --  ; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP K In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered auE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.E   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 08:04:19 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)=, Subject: Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?3 Message-ID: <4Qs11WlAJnlP@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  z In article <fUMg7.10237$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:L > Does anybody know of any moves to add a VMS/Alpha backend to GCC 3.x along* > with any necessary changes to binutils ? >  > Simon. > L > [PS: For the benefit of people without Unix knowledge, binutils is the GNUE > package name given to tools like the GNU linker and GNU assembler.]C  A ACT supports GNAT on Alpha VMS.  I would presume the backend is ap@ requirement when GNAT sources get merged into the GCC tree (real
 soon now).   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 03:46:40 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>,$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning..../ Message-ID: <3B832958.8AC3774F@cableinet.co.uk>X   Robert Deininger wrote: G > If Chicago is anything like New York, a goodly fraction of those jobs K > aren't real.  They might hire someone if he's a perfect match, and cheap. L > But it might turn out that some belt-tightening manager will veto the hireG > at the last moment.  It sems that many of the jobs are "just-in-case" E > postings, but the company isn't really trying to fill the positionso > anytime soon.[  TH yup, but don't blame the managers totally, over here anyway the agenciesH can be on those managers' backs and the managers might just say anythingI to get a free night out or get the agents off their backs or whatever... y -- r Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  "  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of L! my employers or service provider.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 04:19:29 -0400E- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>B$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning...., Message-ID: <3B836B10.6A48B824@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:P >         Trivia: do you know the *only* thing that is left in an AIX filesystemH >         when the following command runs (running as root out of root)? >  >         # rm -r /* > D >         So yes... you build safeguards for that nasty rm command.   7 Perhaps the same thing with $DELETE [000000...]*.*;*  ?]   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:24:34 -0400C2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2208010824340001@user-2ive7i8.dialup.mindspring.com>  / In article <3B832958.8AC3774F@cableinet.co.uk>,/$ tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk wrote:  J > yup, but don't blame the managers totally, over here anyway the agenciesJ > can be on those managers' backs and the managers might just say anythingK > to get a free night out or get the agents off their backs or whatever...      K You'll notice I didn't have anything nice to say about employment agents...    -- p Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comD   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:11:31 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>S$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....2 Message-ID: <UbOg7.520$bB1.29935@news.cpqcorp.net>  E The simple truth is that the next job is usually a result of personal J contacts - networking.  Many of the job listing sites are next-to-useless, except for entry positions.,  J I would venture to say that there may be opportunities in companies of theL people who read this conference.  It might make you think about exactly what
 you say here.e   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 06:52:44 -0700. From: jcwoman1963@hotmail.com (Sharon Guthrie)$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....= Message-ID: <997d6325.0108220552.7f43fe7a@posting.google.com>k  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<G+KhrAqk2cqb@eisner.encompasserve.org>...  B > Ok, I have decided to test one of your prominent assertations --B > that there are no VMS jobs in the Midwest.  Looking at the site: > ' > 	http://jobsearch.openvms.monster.coma > > > pointed to by Compaq's VMS web site and choosing the Chicago> > area, I see 8 jobs listed.  Three of them mention VAX or VMS> > in the title (so you know thay are not mainly Unix jobs that- > wouldn't mind someone with VMS experience).r  H         Having dealt with this during the past year, let me tell you MY N experience.  Lost a great job with a tiny agency in central California, about P this time last year.  I programmed, managed, operated, and everything else on a L two-node vaxcluster.  (People on Encompasserve know my joys and trials with ! that job.  I loved it very much.)lP         I looked around the California job market and found only system manager O jobs at companies that were transitioning their VMS machines to some flavor of tM Unix or NT.  I wanted to stay with VMS, not start over.  (You can argue that iG this might be foolish, but that's another topic stream.)   I found two gL positions that were permanently VMS:  New Jersey and Florida.   I chose the . Florida job and relocated away from my family.N         The florida job didn't work out, I spent most of my time working with M NT and Linux and was unhappy.  I looked around the Florida job market for VMS M positions.  There were a few at any one time, and only programming jobs with nN Oracle-experienced people.  No System management positions.  I have no Oracle F experience and could tell by the tone of those ads that they'd not be I interested in my Cobol/Basic skillset.  They all required experience and lM offered no training.  (Oh yes, I didn't just look at the ads and drop it.  I eL had my resume on Monster and HOTJOBS.  Got no nibbles other than a few from P generic headhunters, but even they had nothing at the time for me.  Mostly they O wanted to know if I had any ... er, salable skills like MCSE or Redhat certs.  s# Nice implication, don't you think?)9M         I approached someone in a company I knew from my California job, the 0N software vendor who wrote the 911 dispatch software.  Ideal for me, ideal for L them (I have 6+ years managing and programming the software).  Here I am in N Northern Virginia.  I'm happy again, but I did have to relocate a second time.O That was costly to me, both financially and personally.  (No family or friends :M in the area, I'm essentially starting a new life.  This is MY committment to   VMS, Compaq do you hear this?)N         To summarize, the VMS job market is VERY tight.  Even in a metro area P the openings are odd and they're particular about what they want in people.  No I training seems to be offered.  Relocating seems to be mandatory, despite 7M current technology making telecommuting possible.  People like me who DIDN'T eN live in a metro area are nearly SOL unless they can pick up and move.  If not O for the fact that I have experience with this particular software, where would cJ I be today?  Either miserable in an NT/Linux job or doing retail sales or  something.     Sharon   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:53:38 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)b$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....3 Message-ID: <rSlcpzu4qdLg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3B836B10.6A48B824@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Rob Young wrote:Q >>         Trivia: do you know the *only* thing that is left in an AIX filesystem I >>         when the following command runs (running as root out of root)?  >> u >>         # rm -r /*t >>  E >>         So yes... you build safeguards for that nasty rm command. h > 9 > Perhaps the same thing with $DELETE [000000...]*.*;*  ?   : 	Not at all.  The above command wipes out one disk/volume.   				Rob:   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:34:00 -0400-* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....7 Message-ID: <AaRg7.16840$4b5.422610@news6.giganews.com>,  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:UbOg7.520$bB1.29935@news.cpqcorp.net...  L > I would venture to say that there may be opportunities in companies of the" > people who read this conference.  = That can be a bit difficult to determine unless someone posts ; such information here. In the past 6 years that I've workedt; for a company doing VMS related activities I've very rarelyp< mentioned what that company is/was or what our products are.  7 [Of course, a few name changes & mergers over the yearsr7  means most people outside of our market niche wouldn'ty recognize it anyway...]p  5 Very few people (if any) would recognize a job posted 8 on monster.com (And we have a few the last time I looked3 though most are not OpenVMS and  "VAX BASIC" jobs ) : by the company I work for and connect it to anyone posting here...1  9 And when jobs do become available the tendency is to looktB within our client base first. It just makes sense. (And the "flow"; isn't one way. We'll occasionally have people looking for ar  change go to work for a client.)  : > It might make you think about exactly what you say here.  = Yes.... I personally try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth 7 too often in this forum/arena/venue :-). You never knowc< who might be listening: fellow travelers, clients/customers,7 bosses, future employers, and assorted others who couldl influence your future.   -Andy-   --< Disclaimer: I may work for them but "Corporate Spokesperson"& appears NOWHERE in my job description.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:44:59 -0700< From: alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com (Aaron Sakovich)$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....= Message-ID: <8af17fe1.0108220944.279cd21b@posting.google.com>   R unixguys <unixguys@home.com> wrote in message news:<3B833DE9.66425070@home.com>...G > Don't get me wrong VMS is a wonderfull OS but there are valid reasonsi/ > Unix is out there and is as popular as it is.-  I Because a million people say a stupid thing does not make it less stupid.c  $ Just ask P.T. Barnum, or Bill Gates.   Aaron:   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:47:55 -0400D' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....( Message-ID: <9m0r7k$i8r$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:UbOg7.520$bB1.29935@news.cpqcorp.net...G > The simple truth is that the next job is usually a result of personaleL > contacts - networking.  Many of the job listing sites are next-to-useless, > except for entry positions.  >eL > I would venture to say that there may be opportunities in companies of theI > people who read this conference.  It might make you think about exactlya what > you say here.a  K I suppose that advice would apply to people who don't *already* think about-J what they say here - but then again such people might well not be expected$ to be intelligent enough to take it.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:51:31 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s9 Subject: Wailing at Eunuchs (was: Wailing and Moaning...)/3 Message-ID: <0GpP9nB9JWRH@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  M In article <3B833DE9.66425070@home.com>, unixguys <unixguys@home.com> writes:s > Rob Young wrote: >>  Y >> In article <3B82E029.BE2ACB0E@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:d >> u> >> > And even though from time to time here, the ardent VMSers@ >> > criticize Unix for certain shortcoming they perceive exist, >> ,8 >>         Not perceive.  They do exist.  vi sucks.  The > = > So don't use vi, use the dozens of other editors out there.- >     < 	Yep.  The Unix answer.  Buy a product and tailor it to suitA 	your needs.  Backup?  We don't want to force that on you either.y    K >>         Unix hiearchial filesystem is *always* a big disaster waiting to R >>         happen.  Two skilled Unix "persons" making a mistake in a shell script.M >>         Two high profile clients dead in the water for a day or two.  Why?2 >> w* >>         # rm -r ${variable_goes_here}/* > 9 > Couldn't have been too "skilled" to make that mistake != >   E 	Absolutely skilled.  One of the people is a 15 year veteran, admin, MB 	system configurator... one of the brighter guys you would know.     	Trust me... bad design.  I > If indeed they were running AIX they should have been up in a couple of-G > hours even if the drives weren't mirrored, get rid of above mentioneddG > "skilled unix persons", put in your previous nights bootable tape setAJ > the machine to service mode, boot it and you are back up and running ...- > no tape you say, well see my first comment.  >   G 	Yep.  You just did the OS restore.  But with the hiearchial filesystemEB 	you also wiped out the db's.  12 years of databases that take the: 	better part of 2 days (maybe 3, can't recall) to restore.   >> FB >>         (Something like that).  Well guess what didn't get set? >> cQ >>         Trivia: do you know the *only* thing that is left in an AIX filesystemBI >>         when the following command runs (running as root out of root)?  >> m > G > Trivia how do you recursively delete 1000s of files in VMS out of theR: > box without writing something or downloading a utility ? >  > Notc >>         # rm -r /*o >> .I >>         So yes... you build safeguards for that nasty rm command.  You Q >>         are making up for the deficiency of the design from the outset though.i >> a > . > Flaw in the design or flaw in the operator ? > D > A laser used in eye surgery can also be used improperly to blind a5 > person is this deficient design or operator error ?o > 5 >> > notwithstanding a lot of the time they're wrong,  >> 'G >>         But "a lot" is not all, and yes ... Unix has come a long wayfI >>         and being free (Linux) helps a great deal.  It doesn't suck as N >>         much as it used to.  But "not as much" isn't the same as "doesn't." >>         :-) >> f > G > Don't get me wrong VMS is a wonderfull OS but there are valid reasonse/ > Unix is out there and is as popular as it is.t  . 	Yep.. billions of flies can't be wrong, yawn.   				Robe   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 05:12:27 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX?u3 Message-ID: <2okiZRUlslL4@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  V In article <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: >  >  > Hunter Goatley wrote:n >> o > O >> I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"-L >> as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's) >> sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)  >>  G > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least itsE > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,cF > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toC > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.p  B Obviously you have spent insufficient time studying those cartoonsB from a business perspective.  Consider that the ACME vendor always- ends up as supplier to the losing side !  :-)t  B I believe 99% of the DEC workforce disliked "AXP", but at the time? their legal department was worried about trademark infringementt) with the word Alpha.  Later that changed.   @ For technical details, AXP has the advantage that it is the same> length as VAX, so two filenames with just that difference look> similar to each other in a directory listing.  I expect to use5 the name IPF in filenames even if I use IA64 in text.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:44:44 -0400a  From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil' Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX?70 Message-ID: <01082209444439@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  N Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote on 22 Aug 2001 05:12:27 -0500 in( <2okiZRUlslL4@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  Q > In article <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> t	 > writes:e > >  > > Hunter Goatley wrote:. > >> - > > Q > >> I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first," N > >> as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's+ > >> sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)  > >> -I > > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least iteG > > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,3H > > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toE > > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.r > D > Obviously you have spent insufficient time studying those cartoonsD > from a business perspective.  Consider that the ACME vendor always/ > ends up as supplier to the losing side !  :-)e  G Marketing research has shown that a viewer will remember a product namea2 whether a commercial is good or bad, liked or not.  > We should use some of Vance Packard's lessons to sell OpenVMS.  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919-; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919l5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:11:37 -0400e' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>tY Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell n< Message-ID: <howard-72097D.08113722082001@enews.newsguy.com>  0 In article <3b8339f1.30367856@news.process.com>,/  goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) wrote:h  N > I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"K > as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it'sa( > sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)  N Given what happened, they should have named it "Omega". <half-grin>  Or maybe 9 labeled FAB6 that, so that Alpha was made in their Omega.y -- r Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 02:33:19 -0400-( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>Y Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell a+ Message-ID: <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>o   Hunter Goatley wrote:t >   N > I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"K > as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's ( > sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-) > E I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least itiC would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,-D which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toA mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.s   HM   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:55:36 +0100t( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>Y Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The Final    Knell  ) Message-ID: <3B83D5F8.6535EF5A@127.0.0.1>    Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:G > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least iteE > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,nF > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toC > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.e  G Digital should have done quite well on the back of all those headphonesrA and other audio equipment all labelled "for Digital" and "DigitalU ready".b  G The word is pretty much a household name in the UK, pity. Even when thelD terrestrial TV was bought out, the name changed from "on-Digital" to "ITV-Digital".  - Perhaps Compaq should consider a name change.   E [And before seniors in Compaq start dismissing the idea, just bear in C mind the reference I made to a telecommunications company in the UKlC called Orange and the image they portray with such an uncomplicatedAD name, and the success they have had with it. The origins of this are- worth reading but I've no online references].-   -- 7( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:06:59 GMTaB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>V Subject: Who owns the DECterm fonts (and what public sources exist for replacements ?)5 Message-ID: <DfNg7.10270$2u.73277@www.newsranger.com>e  H Who owns the DECterm fonts used in DECwindows ? Are they the property ofD DEC/CPQ or did they come from, for example, MIT and hence are freely+ available for anyone to use on any system ?n  J On Linux, the basic font exists as part of XFree86, but the fonts that areM used for double height/double width don't appear to be available to a DECterm L displayed on a Linux system unless you use XFS on VMS to serve them from VMS	 to Linux.e  I If the fonts are the property of DEC/CPQ, does anybody know of any publick replacements ?   Thanks for any information,d   Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPnK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered anE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:19:57 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>nY Subject: Re: Who owns the DECterm fonts (and what public sources exist for replacements ?f2 Message-ID: <MjOg7.521$bB1.29955@news.cpqcorp.net>  L As far as I remember, the basic fonts were done by Bitstream.  Usually fonts3 are licensed, I have no idea about who "owns" them.   E There is a set of fonts on the freeware CD that I created for the VSWrK terminal emulator which work with DECterm.  I think the kit on the disk haseJ BDF versions.  You can use them any way you want.  Put 'em on Linux if youL want to.  I can't claim to be a great font designer, but I designed these toI be as "clean" as possible on a video display, and to be the exact size asmD the VT240 fonts, so that when you use ReGIS you get exact alignment.   _Fredu  " Simon Clubley wrote in message ...I >Who owns the DECterm fonts used in DECwindows ? Are they the property ofkE >DEC/CPQ or did they come from, for example, MIT and hence are freely9, >available for anyone to use on any system ? >wK >On Linux, the basic font exists as part of XFree86, but the fonts that arefF >used for double height/double width don't appear to be available to a DECtermtI >displayed on a Linux system unless you use XFS on VMS to serve them fromd VMS 
 >to Linux. >eJ >If the fonts are the property of DEC/CPQ, does anybody know of any public >replacements ?  >t >Thanks for any information, >  >Simon.e >T >--s< >Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPL >In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aF >truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:27:24 +0800e- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>s) Subject: Re: ZLX2-E (TGA2) dial settings? A Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010822172559.00a15590@mail.bigpond.com>o  + At 22/08/01 03:16 AM, John Johnstone wrote:iL >Here are the settings for the 3D30 (PBXGB-AA) and the 4D20 (PBXGB-CA).  TheJ >1600x1200 are only applicable to the 4D20.  I don't know if these are the5 >same settings are the same as the one that you have.r >  >    Res        Ref. >0  1280x1024  72u >1  1280x1024  66a >2  1280x1024  60s >3  1152x900   72L >4  1600x1200  65r >5  1024x768   70c >6  1024x768   722 >7  1024x864   60  >8  1024x768   60n >9  800x600    72i >A  800x600    60r >B  640x480    72i >C  640x480    60e >D  1280x1024  75i >E  1280x1024  60l >F  1600x1200  75    Thanks John.B Searches using ZLX2-E didn't find much but searches with the PBXGB8 part number revealed the same info in Wizard item #2041.
 Thanks again.y       Regards, Dave.e --  I David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/-I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmcI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon8   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.466 ************************