1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 23 Aug 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 467       Contents: Re: Chicago area job! Re: Compaq do not promote OpenVMS  Converting DDIF Files  Re: Converting DDIF Files  Re: Converting DDIF Files  Re: corrected version  Re: corrected version  DECWindows and Reflections X! Re: Encompass membership problems 2 Re: GTK and VMS: current status and future plans ?+ How is cluster id generated= csid 00010001? / Re: How is cluster id generated= csid 00010001? + Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?  keyboard controls in Open VMS ! Re: keyboard controls in Open VMS . Linux as a desktop OS (not entirely off-topic)2 RE: Linux as a desktop OS (not entirely off-topic) Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides Re: Nits in Slides9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 9 Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded) 5 Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...) # Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on # Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on P Re: OutOfMemoryError when running the dom-xml-parser with larger xml-files (2.3MP Re: Prerequisite Products and IPF Porting (was: Re: The Final Knell Has  Sounded Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope.  Re: Some postive points I hope. 
 Sqlsrv_manage  Standalone Backup Boot Question # Re: Standalone Backup Boot Question  Re: Sys$Library:LIBOTS Problem Re: Take it elsewhere  Re: TAR files in VMS Re: TAR files in VMS Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded A Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared  Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery, Re: VMS high reliability needed by Air Force, Re: VMS high reliability needed by Air Force# Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ? # Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ? # Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?  Re: Wailing and Moaning....  Re: Wailing and Moaning.... 4 Re: Wailing at Eunuchs (was: Wailing and Moaning...) Re: What cooler name than VAX?@ Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The@ Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheP Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheFinal Knell Has P Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheFinal Knell Has P Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re:TheFinal Knell Has S  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:09:41 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Chicago area job ' Message-ID: <3B8473F5.3357BAF3@fsi.net>    Rob Young wrote: > ] > In article <3B8313B3.CC9F36A4@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > L >         David, there are a dozen ways to skin this cat.  Every major metroG >         has VMS support jobs.  They may be tricky to find and you may C >         be too high-priced (that is not a bad thing, it is a good G >         thing), but they are there.  Curious to find out who this is.    Yeah - me, too.    >         Let us know. . .  B Maybe - no promises. I'm being careful where I tread these days...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:40:25 +0200 & From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>* Subject: Re: Compaq do not promote OpenVMS$ Message-ID: <3B840AA9.2F1C@c-lab.de>   John McLean wrote: >  > Rudolf Wingert wrote:  > > 
 > > Hello, > > E > > there is a TRUE64 ES40 EV68/833MHz kicker here in Germany for the F > > campus people (F&L). But for OpenVMS, nothing is seen. This is theJ > > n'th time I do see Compaq promoting TRUE64. Is OpenVMS so much better,F > > that it must not promoted, or is it the unloved child better death > > as living. > >   B What happened here in Germany is that I never saw a Compaq ad even? remotely decorated with 'OpenVMS' somewhere (unless in the fine  print...).    H What's even more amusing/irritating, that Computer Woche, a bi-weekly ITE periodical targeted rather at the lower IT management than for a more H technical audience (folks in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery like to make jokesH about it, but anyway, you should know your enemy), had in its edition ofE Aug, 3, a FULL PAGE ARTICLE about the migration of Commerzbank's data F center from London (sorry, blokes) to Frankfurt with an upgrade of theH server to GS (mentioning Wildfire) and a SAN infrastructure. The articleF even went so far in directly quoting the responsible head of computingE center that he INSISTED on OpenVMS. Together with some statements how H the migration/upgrade was performed, including setting up a test site inG US and only THEN proceding with the installation in Germany. If I would H be an OpenVMS customer in Germany, then I'd expect to hear about that in& bright colours from Compaq Germany...   F All in all, the article even seemed to be written by someone who is atE least a little symphatetic to VMS. Now, one might ask what would have A happened to this project if The Announcement would have been made 
 earlier...    G > As far as I am aware the situation with both has changed, but only in A > the last 18 months or so and, I suspect, not very dramatically.  > J > The first item is about sales, specifically the "points" scored for eachE > sale by a Compaq salesperson.  After the acquisition of Digital the J > "points" for any sale were allocated on the basis of boxes moved, not on? > value or profit of those boxes.  We had the situation where a B > salesperson selling 12 PCs would get 12 points or credits when aC > salesperson selling something like an Alpha 2100 would get just 1 H > credit.  Clearly there was no motive for the sales people to be tryingJ > to move the high-end (largely ex-Digital) equipment running Tru64 or VMSE > because these boxes took more effort to move and the returns to the  > salesperson were minimal.  >    ??????? PLEASE? WHAT !? G Is that another proof for the Dilbert Principle, with an added twist of , not only incompetent, but even braindamaged?H Is there a job requirement for higher marketing of 'not being able to do
 arithmetics'?   % Sorry, but that's plain unbelievable.      --  * Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2001 20:44:16 GMT/ From: morris@iridium.mv.net (Skipper W. Morris)  Subject: Converting DDIF Files( Message-ID: <9m15j0$stv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  I Anyone happen to know a way to convert DDIF (DECWRITE) files to something H more modern?  We've got a few but apparently don't even have DECWRITE on our system any more.   thanks /Skip    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:22:10 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> " Subject: Re: Converting DDIF Files/ Message-ID: <3B8420BB.F31D0AB4@cableinet.co.uk>    "Skipper W. Morris" wrote: > K > Anyone happen to know a way to convert DDIF (DECWRITE) files to something J > more modern?  We've got a few but apparently don't even have DECWRITE on > our system any more.  E I have some recollection that later versions of DECWrite could output  html. 0 There were also rtf converts for VAX I beleive.    regards       --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:49:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Re: Converting DDIF Files, Message-ID: <3B846F4F.C4C793B9@videotron.ca>   "Skipper W. Morris" wrote: > K > Anyone happen to know a way to convert DDIF (DECWRITE) files to something J > more modern?  We've got a few but apparently don't even have DECWRITE on > our system any more.   CDA converter library.  K Do a DIR SYS$LIBRARY:DDIF*WRITE*.EXE to find out if you have any converters ! that would do the trick for you.     On my VAX, I can output:= 	MACWRITE, PS, RTF, SGML, WORDPerfect, WORD5,  WPL (wpsplus).    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:34:03 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>  Subject: Re: corrected version) Message-ID: <3B84092B.F8B6A578@gtech.com>   8 Does anyone have a list of J2EE servers supporting VMS ?  - Has anyone tried to get JBoss to run on VMS ?    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:34:47 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>  Subject: Re: corrected version) Message-ID: <3B840957.B67F112C@gtech.com>    Jonas Lindholm wrote: O > Sue, there is no WebLogic Server V6.0 for OpenVMS. The only version is 5.1.0.  > M > If there is a version 6.0, please then provide an accurate link so we could  > find it and try it, or# > is this another lie from Compaq ?   $ The announcement said "end August" !   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:28:13 GMT - From: "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> % Subject: DECWindows and Reflections X + Message-ID: <N_Yg7.52616$K6.20264528@news2>   0 When I start a DECterm  I get the error message:          Can't find < font -*-terminal-Bold-R-Normal--18-140-100-100-c-0-ISO8859-*  L Does anyone else get this?  If so how do I fix it?  When I installed Motif I1 installed everything...Or is this on the PC side?   H I have Reflections X 7.2,  AlphaStation 250 4/266, VMS 7.2-1, DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-5.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:08:06 -0400 ' From: Jim Becker <jbecker@ui.urban.org> * Subject: Re: Encompass membership problems, Message-ID: <3B846586.EF683315@ui.urban.org>   Jerry Kraus wrote: > F > On 4-Aug I applied for a basic membership over the net. I would likeG > to order the VMS hobbiest kit. It said I would receive the membership E > number by the end of the week, and a card later by snail mail. It's D > been a couple of weeks now, and no email. I sent an email to theirF > information@decus.org address a week ago but again no response. DoesB > anyone know if this is normal, and I should continue to wait; or > should I try reapplying?  @ I've forwarded this to the gang at Encompass HQ in case this has+ slipped through the cracks for some reason.   8 The toll-free number at Encompass btw is 1-877-354-9887.   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/) ' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/) . ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:20:39 GMT ' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> ; Subject: Re: GTK and VMS: current status and future plans ? - Message-ID: <3B8405A3.2A01CA4C@theblakes.com>    Simon Clubley wrote:  , > What is the current status of GTK on VMS ? > L > I know that there is a port of 1.2-8; has anybody formed an opinion on how > stable it is ?  9 Its used extensively in Mozilla. I'd say its very stable.   4 > Is anyone planning to port later versions to VMS ?   When Mozilla requires it!    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 11:52:11 -0700* From: vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham)4 Subject: How is cluster id generated= csid 00010001?< Message-ID: <8b51ed8.0108221052.3be8ab00@posting.google.com>  < I am rebuilding a dead system disk, for a node in a cluster.( Original posting is BIG Cluster Problem.  C Looking at an old boot log, the system usually booted with an id of C 00010002 from the message Node "rebuilt_nodename" (csid 0010002) is E now a VAXcluster member. I'm using an image of another (primary) node < in the cluster and from boot logs it boots as csid 00100001.  D While testing the rebuilt system, it is not connected to any networkE and boots with a VOTE of 5. The csid is 0010001, which is the same as  the production system.  B Question: Is it the same as the production system, due to the factE that the image backup is from the production system? Or is it 0010001 D because currently, it is the only node in the cluster. When I put itB on the production network, should it normally go to 0010002, or is> there a file that needs to be changed to allow this to happen?   Regards,   victor.mendham@emergis.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:55:20 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 8 Subject: Re: How is cluster id generated= csid 00010001?0 Message-ID: <00A00EB3.B0EEF85F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  i In article <8b51ed8.0108221052.3be8ab00@posting.google.com>, vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham) writes: = >I am rebuilding a dead system disk, for a node in a cluster. ) >Original posting is BIG Cluster Problem.  > D >Looking at an old boot log, the system usually booted with an id ofD >00010002 from the message Node "rebuilt_nodename" (csid 0010002) isF >now a VAXcluster member. I'm using an image of another (primary) node= >in the cluster and from boot logs it boots as csid 00100001.  > E >While testing the rebuilt system, it is not connected to any network F >and boots with a VOTE of 5. The csid is 0010001, which is the same as >the production system.  > C >Question: Is it the same as the production system, due to the fact F >that the image backup is from the production system? Or is it 0010001E >because currently, it is the only node in the cluster. When I put it C >on the production network, should it normally go to 0010002, or is ? >there a file that needs to be changed to allow this to happen?  > 	 >Regards,  >  >victor.mendham@emergis.com   > The creation of the CSID is analogous to the creation of PIDs.  ? Each member of a cluster maintains a table in memory called the > Cluster System Vector (CSV).  The table is initialized with 0.@ When a node joins the cluster, VMS looks for the next free entry? in the CSV and increments the contents.  This becomes the upper ? 16 bits (or sequence number) of the CSID.  The lower 16 bits of > the CSID are the index of the CSV entry.  The entry in the CSV1 is the address of the Cluster System Block (CSB).   = The CSID has nothing to do with anything that might be stored  on the system disk.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:29:27 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 4 Subject: Re: Is there a why to set verify in sysgen?< Message-ID: <howard-0A399B.20292722082001@enews.newsguy.com>  N In article <3B83EEF4.C37422CA@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>  wrote:  
 > $ mc sysman 8 > sysman> startup set options/output=file/verify=partial > sysman> ^Z  ; Bizzareness.  What does this do?  STARTUP_Pn modifications?     C > We (well, most of us) do this since more that 20 years, don't we?   2 Not using SYSMAN.  It hasn't existed for 20 years. --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:24:44 +1200 % From: Inosa Qativi <Inosa@fsc.com.fj> & Subject: keyboard controls in Open VMSG Message-ID: <BFBEDDF2CFEDD411917400508BF3A6FF027C20@EXCHSVR.FSC.COM.FJ>   L In digital VAX system, how do we disable F5 key and other F keys for 101-key5 and 104-key keyboards  in Open VMS operating system ?    Inosa.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:52:56 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> * Subject: Re: keyboard controls in Open VMS' Message-ID: <3B847E18.B4FCE17D@fsi.net>    Inosa Qativi wrote:  > N > In digital VAX system, how do we disable F5 key and other F keys for 101-key7 > and 104-key keyboards  in Open VMS operating system ?  >  > Inosa.  # Not sure I understand the question.   C In a real VT terminal (VT220 and later), the F1 through F4 keys are G local only - they send nothing to the host. F5 is the BREAK key. I seem E to recall that it can be disabled in later VTs (VT300? and later, notTB sure). The other F keys send an escape sequence to the host. To myB knowledge, they cannot "disabled" or defined. SHIFT+Fn keys can be, defined by the host (user) program, however.  D VT terminal keyboards are model LK2xx, LK4xx and so on. They are not "101 key" or "104 key".n  F PC terminal (emulator) programs are another matter, and their keyboardE mapping are all very different from each other. Refer to the terminalr$ program documentation for specifics.   Hope this helps.   -- i David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:38:15 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i7 Subject: Linux as a desktop OS (not entirely off-topic)s( Message-ID: <9m0u60$n6d$1@pyrite.mv.net>   The following articled  H http://www.computerworld.com/rckey72/story/0,1199,NAV63_STO63212,00.html  J not only sheds some light on the 'VMS as a desktop OS' thread but has some3 interesting parallels between Microsoft and Compaq.n   FWIW,-   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:11:41 -0500s* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>; Subject: RE: Linux as a desktop OS (not entirely off-topic)e- Message-ID: <0033000033035845000002L052*@MHS>e  < =0AIt appears to me that Computerworld is having a hard time making up its mind...u   --from the end of the article:   Related stories:  7 Is Linux ready for the corporate desktop?, Aug. 9, 2001V  8 Desktop Linux fades as Dell pulls the plug, Aug. 2, 2001  7 Linux desktop software vendor closes shop, May 16, 2001s  6 Desktop Linux Receives Boost With Gnome, Aug. 21, 2000     > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETM* > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:44 PMF > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET9 > Subject: Linux as a desktop OS (not entirely off-topic)l >  >E > The following articleM >i@ > http://www.computerworld.com/rckey72/story/0,1199,NAV63_STO632 > 12,00.html >m? > not only sheds some light on the 'VMS as a desktop OS' threadm > but has some5 > interesting parallels between Microsoft and Compaq.d >w > FWIW,e >a > - bill >=   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:38:27 GMTl+ From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@home.com>e( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print: Message-ID: <TnXg7.2797$w75.541031@news3.rdc2.on.home.com>  0 My previous reply must have been regular e-mail.   So, I'll try toreiterate.a  H The point I was stumbling towards was that 2 good word processors and 58I lame word processors for a system in comparison to 2 good word processors9L and 3 lame word processors for another system, does not make the system with2 60 word processors better than the one that has 5.  E There is no need to have thousands of applications and programs for a K system. There is just a need to have good quality applications andsolutionsiG available, and in that department, across all those different OperatingwK Systems, there were some good quality applications and solutions available.p  J If it wasn't for DIGITAL and our strong insistance to port Visual Basic toJ the Alpha, it would have remained as a pseudou code interpreter, incapable+ of generating native code for any platform.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:40:51 GMT0+ From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@home.com> ( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print: Message-ID: <7qXg7.2803$w75.542553@news3.rdc2.on.home.com>  H But it does go to show that good engineering, solid planning followed byK inovative and forward looking design followed by strong implementation, canBJ do such amazing things not conceived by the original designers back in theJ begining days of OpenVMS. I don't think there are many other architectures out there that could do that.t   rtth   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 13:40:05 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Nits in Slidesn3 Message-ID: <WTgqfY4rIaWM@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ] In article <3B83F327.559A1F76@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:m  5 > Apart from helping out the OS, wow so you entirely .2 > discount providing support for the OS as being a5 > usefull feature set that it might just be important 6 > to have in the new processor architecture. You also 3 > forgot the things that were left out of the first)1 > implimentations of Alpha that were added later (2 > specifically to improve the performance of apps 0 > coming from VAX which also effected any VESTED > apps.e  6 I am sure nobody made any hardware changes to help the6 performance of VESTed applications.  I gather you have5 never run VEST.  Performance depends on the nature ofa2 the program and how well you use the VEST feedback
 mechanism.  5 Addition of byte memory access was for performance oft4 code running under FX!32 on Windows NT.  Addition of5 byte IO access was for performance accessing adapterst4 written with other machines in mind.  DEC got out of1 the habit of building lots of their own adapters.d  K >> IMHO - I expect more VAX images to end up being translated/emulated thans >> Alpha images on IPF.t > 
 > Why ?????? s  9 I can't speak for Fred's reasoning, but since 1992 peoplep7 have been more in the habit of saving sources than theyu
 were in 1978.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:42:20 -0400t* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Nits in Slides ) Message-ID: <3B840B1C.8030603@compaq.com>r  ( Not to get involved in this love-in, but   Larry Kilgallen wrote:8 > I am sure nobody made any hardware changes to help the% > performance of VESTed applications.h  G Not entirely true.  The RC and RS instructions were added to the Alpha lB architecture directly for VEST's use.  No compiler generates them.   John Reagann" Compaq Pascal/MACRO Project Leader   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 16:10:02 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: Nits in Slidesb3 Message-ID: <LVoZeaNQJIr1@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  V In article <3B840B1C.8030603@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:* > Not to get involved in this love-in, but >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:9 >> I am sure nobody made any hardware changes to help thet& >> performance of VESTed applications. > I > Not entirely true.  The RC and RS instructions were added to the Alpha yD > architecture directly for VEST's use.  No compiler generates them.  9 Were those added for the sake of performance (after EV4),oC or were they there from the beginning for the sake of correctness ?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:00:07 +0100t0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>B Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)* Message-ID: <3B83F327.559A1F76@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > M > So?  Yes, I already said it will be slower than native performance.  If thenK > original was an Alpha image, then it will be measurably slower - at leastpK > until IPF processor speeds get considerably faster.  How much slower willRI > depend on a lot of things.  If the code is a CPU intensive application,nH > instinct should tell you that you won't be happy with a translation orJ > emulation.  But translation technology with incremental optimization has. > come a long way, and we'll see what happens. >   : I think you miss the point, you will be competing against 8 HP-UX on IA64 and Tru64 on IA64 on a commodity platform 4 which I hope for your sake Compaq won't price at non commodity prices.2  6 Both HP-UX and Tru64 will have much larger catalogues 1 of natively compiled apps than OpenVMS so if you s5 have to rely on emulation it had better be real fast.p  N > I expect the vast majority of Alpha code to be recompiled.  I expect we will9 > probably see more VAX images than Alpha running on IPF.p >   0 I hope so for your sake because if it isn't you  are stuffed.  8 > >It is also not possible to draw parallels between the6 > >experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since care5 > >was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this., > >R > M > Eh?  Aside from having a few things in the HW to help the OS out, the Alpha L > ISA doesn't provide anything that makes it easier/faster to emulate a VAX.I > The raw performance of Alpha over VAX makes translated images feasible.0K > Heck, the raw performance of the IA32 over the VAX makes *pure* emulationg > feasible (ala Charron).t >   3 Apart from helping out the OS, wow so you entirely -0 discount providing support for the OS as being a3 usefull feature set that it might just be importantj4 to have in the new processor architecture. You also 1 forgot the things that were left out of the firstm/ implimentations of Alpha that were added later  0 specifically to improve the performance of apps . coming from VAX which also effected any VESTED apps.e  0 Remember no one expects Intel to modify IA64 to 1 allow OpenVMS apps to run faster it won't happen.s  ' Are you sure you are an engineer ??????-  2 > >2. The delta between a natively compiled app on/ > > IA64 and an emulated/translated one is huge $ > > this wasn't the case with Alpha. > >e > M > Sure it was.  The difference between a native Alpha image, and a VESTed VAXoI > version of it *is* large.  But sometimes it JUST DOESN'T MATTER.  It is0L > yet-to-be-seen what the performance penalty will be between an Alpha imageM > on an EV6 today, and a translated version on an IPF 2-3 years from now willa1 > be.  That is really the interesting comparison.7 >   : But you arn't talking about today, for OpenVMS to survive 9 you have to go on selling Alpha/OpenVMS systems for some  8 time lets say 2006 (you need some apps native). Had you  totally forgotten this ?  7 Now you won't be selling EV6 based systems in 2006 let t5 alone 2003 and that is the comparison you have to be r5 making EV7 vs IA64 not EV6 or EV5. If you don't then .: your own Tru64 folks who will have much better ISV support6 than OpenVMS will have your guts for garters and thats' after Sun and IBM have had their share.   2 > >3. The Alpha designers were carefull to provide3 > > good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couplek2 > > of significant exceptions which were rectified1 > > later) no such care has been taken for IA-64.t > >o > N > This has NOTHING to do with translated image support.  Give me the SPECIFICs > that make you believe this.  > < > >These 3 things add up to making emulated/translated Alpha9 > >binaries running on IA64 a very unattractive prospect.p > >. > J > Very few people used the VEST stuff on VAX.  I expect fewer will use theK > Alpha translation - since Alpha code is usually much more up-to-date thaneL > the VAX was - I expect the majority of people will recompile.  But it willK > be there for those who need it.  And mixed cluster support will allow thetG > code to continue to run on existing Alphas, while still being able to M > co-exist with IPF systems.  Eventually the same place will be reached wheretM > we are today - even pure emulation of VAX code on Alpha *or* IA32 is fasterl) > than the original VAX system it ran on.i > J > IMHO - I expect more VAX images to end up being translated/emulated than > Alpha images on IPF.   Why ?????? a5 ISV support for OpenVMS has declined not increased or?4 hadn't you noticed. What are you doing to get ISV's 3 who dropped OpenVMS since the VAX->Alpha migration  # like Sybase back onto IA64/OpenVMS.i  6 Oh sorry its just your opinion, is there any value in  that ??u    > > >If Alpha was capable of deliver the same level of thoughputB > >when inserted into a socket and built into a server as UltraIII? > >then you would have a point. Sadly for you somewhere betweengB > >in cache benchmarks like SPEC and actual throughput for peoples< > >applications Alpha goes badly wrong as your own benchmark@ > >results for anything other than SPECint and fp show. :):):):) > >u > K > Eh?  Do I translate this as "ignore those test results, USIII is actuallybJ > much faster - trust us"?  So tell me about your top 10 TPC-C result?  DoN > your applications run faster when you turn of prefetch pipelines?   Or maybeI > you are talking about some vapor future 8-way Sparc with OoO.  Hope you N > build something in to turn it off if, just in case you have the same guy who$ > did your cache designs work on it.    > Since we havn't run TPC-C on the F series you have nothing to ? compare against. I note however that you are carefull to avoid d@ mentioning Oracle apps where a much smaller Sun F6800 trashed a  32 CPU WildFire. 1  @ Should I translate that into Compaq are have demonstrated better> performance using an exotic configuration which most customersB will not consider for a 5 query benchmark with hand coded clients,A while Sun has demonstrated better performance for an application  < with 20+ querys in a standard configuration and without any  hand coding.  @ Interesting perhaps you should be in marketing you are certainly# beginning to sound very like Kerry.o   Regards  Andrew HarrisonW Enterprise IT Architects   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:44:16 -0400e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> B Subject: Re: Nits in Slides (was: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded)2 Message-ID: <O3Tg7.564$bB1.30133@news.cpqcorp.net>  + andrew harrison pontificated like a baboon:r >t( >Are you sure you are an engineer ?????? >I    L Well I sure as heck am not a self-styled "Enterprise Architect".  I've still to see *your* credentials.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:33:35 GMTm2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)> Subject: Re: Nuts-n-bolts in News (was: Re: Nits in Slides...)2 Message-ID: <3WSg7.563$bB1.30184@news.cpqcorp.net>  ] In article <3B83E70A.E12AE091@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:r7 :It does but any otimism you might want to inject into e5 :this discussion needs to be countered with the fact S5 :that Intel have tried as much as they can to improveh6 :the performance of the x86 emulation but that it has 9 :proved to be very hard to emulate x86 and other non ILP o# :binaries into an ILP architecture.   B   Cool.  Too bad we're interested in Alpha and VAX, and not IA-32.   ..  = :Yes but there is nothing in Mckinley for example that would  9 :lead anyone to believe that emulated code would run any  : :faster than the overall improvements in performance that 9 :it will deliver. So for example if Mckinley is 2x faster,7 :than Itanium then the current x86 emulation will also d9 :run 2x faster or for some apps at Pentium 200 Mhz speed.s  B   Cool.  Too bad we're interested in Alpha and VAX, and not IA-32.  : :Now this may be good enough performance for some apps but6 :it does depend very much on the proportion of apps on9 :the new platform that have to be translated/emulated andZ< :the number that are native. If all your apps are translated9 :then this will be a huge problem if 99% are native then y
 :it will not.   =   Cool.  Too bad most folks don't look first to use emulationa?   or translation.  I'd hope that most folks haven't lost their     source code.  7 :Running Oracle on a CPU that was in effect delivering 06 :200 Mhz Pentium levels of performance because Oracle 6 :hadn't ported native would I suggest be unacceptable  :to most of you customers.  =   Cool.  Too bad most folks don't look first to use emulationd?   or translation.  I'd hope that most folks haven't lost their     source code.  : :The biggest job that Compaq has is to try to ensure that 6 :the translator/emulator never gets used in anger. It 5 :remains to be seen if Compaq have the ability to do o :this. o  4   Though not if you can help it, I would expect. :-)  9 :> :It is also not possible to draw parallels between the 7 :> :experience when moving from VAX to Alpha since care-6 :> :was taken in the Alpha architecture to allow this. :>  @ :>   Alpha was not particularly designed with emulation in mind. :> a :l: :No but it was designed to support similar protection etc  :facilites as the VAX.  H   IPF has software-implemented page tables and a nicely extensible page J   protection key scheme.  We can do what we want, in other words.  Please 5   don't let this trivia detract from your discussion.n   @ :>   Alpha targets clock speed, superscaler processing, and SMP. :> TM :>   Alpha was specifically designed to be operating system platform neutral,rE :>   but to have mechanisms to ease the support of operating systems.  :i :Specifically VMS.  3   Specifically OpenVMS, Tru64 UNIX, and Windows NT.r  K :>   Having features such as piles of data and piles of instructions all in K :>   flight tends to make emulation more interesting -- fast, when the codelH :>   is all scheduled correctly.  Programmers working at this level mustH :>   account for the necessary memory barriers and the cache flushes andD :>   trap shadows, and the instruction scheduling needed to keep theJ :>   instruction units as busy as can be scheduled.  EPIC has some similarJ :>   "weirdnesses", but in different areas.  EPIC performance -- like that5 :>   of Alpha -- is sensitive to the code scheduling.t :> 'J :>   Put another way, I'm not personally sure that the VAX-Alpha emulationL :>   performance has any particular bearing on VAX-IPF emulation performanceJ :>   -- in either direction.  But I am sure that there are folks that want5 :>   a functioning emulator/translator/"transulator".- :> 07 :> :This has not happened for Alpha->IA64 because Intelh; :> :never made any provision for this in their architectureu8 :> :as is obvious from the some of the posts refering to :> :levels of protection etc.e :> tI :>   The EPIC (VLIW) design is very reminiscent to what used to be called0 :>   the processor microcode.n :> l6 :> :Now with IA64 you are exposing your customers to a6 :> :triple whammy which you didn't expose them to with :> :VAX->Alpha.o :> :> :> :1.     The EV7 will probably be a faster CPU than the IA64= :> :       CPU that you migrate to so even native compilation.; :> :       may result in a peformance drop. This wasn't then9 :> :       case for VAX-Alpha except for some edge cases.  :> /A :>   Compaq plans to have EV7 and systems based on EV7 available.t : = :Quite so people will be migrating off EV7 onto IA64 my pointr; :exactly and there is no current indication that IA64 will f :be faster.d  =   Ok, first terminology.  IA-64 is the architecture.  Itanium-<   is the first implementation.  IPF is the Itanium Processor=   Family.  Itanium may or may not have an advantage over EV7.iA   Given that Itanium is shipping and EV7 isn't, EV7 will probablyy   be faster.     :> v7 :> :2.     The delta between a natively compiled app onh6 :> :       IA64 and an emulated/translated one is huge+ :> :       this wasn't the case with Alpha.s :> nC :>   I'm not sure there is enough information to substantiate that.r :>   Or to deny it.  : = :There is if you compare native ported x86 apps (on Alpha NT)aB :with FX!32 translated apps on Alpha, in some cases the difference :was not that marked.  :r? :Where as the delta between x86 (emulated code) and native IA64  :code is huge.    B   Cool.  Too bad we're interested in Alpha and VAX, and not IA-32.    7 :> :3.     The Alpha designers were carefull to providep: :> :       good mapping of VAX capabilities (with a couple9 :> :       of significant exceptions which were rectifiedp8 :> :       later) no such care has been taken for IA-64. :> oB :>   Interesting.  We haven't seen any of this.  (You clearly haveD :>   far more knowledge of the VAX, Alpha, and IPF architectures andF :>   the specific implementations.  Would you mind providing specificsC :>   of where the resulting performance problems will lurk in IPF?)n :> g :o= :Page protection for example. 8bit in VAX and Alpha I assume f$ :that Alpha has 8 because Vax has 8.    H   Doubly nice canard.  First, I was refering to IA-64, not to the Alpha D   Architecture.  And second, the Alpha Architecture itself does not I   designate the Page Table Entry (PTE) format -- OpenVMS expects and has -H   eight bits for page protection in the PTE.  Windows NT and Linux have J   one bit -- the owner mode -- in the PTE.  To avoid what might be anotherF   canard, the other PTE bits are used for other purposes, and are not J   simply protection bits left unused.  Remember those "mechanisms to ease 8   the support of operating systems" I mentioned earlier?    7 :5 in IA64 requiring you to use the additional IPF key u3 :protection registers which may or may not cause a i :performance hit.  :o. :Of course 8bit could have been accidental in 1 :which case I withdraw my "carefull" and replace ( :it with "lucky".   H   The Alpha Architecture actually doesn't have eight protection bits in J   its Page Table Entry (PTE) design.  It doesn't have any protection bits I   architected.  (Though Alpha as used by OpenVMS does have eight bits.)  r  F   It's really cool how we got OpenVMS to work on Alpha, isn't it then?  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:51:47 GMTe2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>, Subject: Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on? Message-ID: <n5%g7.5565$e8.2126002@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com>8  6 In comp.sys.dec Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:) > I've just typed in  the following code:h >  $TYPE LOOP.MAC> >          TITLE LOOPS >          SEARCH MONSYM,MACSYM0 >          .REQUIRE SYS:MACREL   >  START:  MOVE 1,COUNTt >          SOJL 1,ELOOP: >          JRST .-1m >  ELOOP:  TMSG <FINISHED  >  > >          HALTF >  COUNT:  ^D10000000h >          END START  F > This decrements a memory location from 10 million and took 6 secondsG > to execute on a PIII 500 Mhz under Windows 2000. Two instructions arePH > executed in the loop (SOJL - Subtract One Jump if Less than zero; JRSTG > - Jump and ReSTore) so that;s 20 million instructions in 6 seconds oruF > better than 3 million PDP-10 instructions per second. I think that's+ > close to a KL10 for this particular test.a  L On a DEC AlphaStation 200 4/233 running both TOPS-10 7.03 and TOPS-20 4.1 atL the same time on OpenBSD it took 4 minutes 20 seconds for the above to run. I It looks like each simh session was getting about 33% of the CPU.  Sounds H like I need to invest in a faster box to run this.  TOPS-10 feels fairly  responsive, TOPS-20 is sluggish.   			Zaneo   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:56:36 GMTf2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>, Subject: Re: OT: TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 live on? Message-ID: <U9%g7.5570$e8.2125285@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com>   6 In comp.sys.dec Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:F > Some of the info needed is all over the place but a good start point > isF >  http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html and the alt.sys.pdp10 > newsgroup.  J If anyone has any suggestions for improvements on the above webpage please let me know.  G > Just in the last week or so pre-built binaies have been made availble C > for WIndows and the emulator claims to be able to compile and runc) > under VMS but I haven't tried that yet.t  I If someone succeeds, please post info on how you did it to alt.sys.pdp10,o0 I'd love to get simh running on my main VMS box.   			Zaneh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:53:31 +0200t& From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>Y Subject: Re: OutOfMemoryError when running the dom-xml-parser with larger xml-files (2.3Ma$ Message-ID: <3B840DBB.4487@c-lab.de>   Mats Bjornlund wrote:4 > F > I got a solution on this problem. To solve it, I started the program > with:s > G > Java &#8221;-Xms100000000&#8221; &#8221;-Xmx120000000&#8221; &#8211;vs( > &#8221;Dparser&#8221; myBigXMLfile.xml > 3 > Then it took 3 minutes to parse a 2.4MB xml-file.l > E > We have files above 20MB, so we actually need a faster parser. Then - > probably will using the SAX-parser instead.  >   A Exactly. A loong time ago we used the MS XML parser for syntacticiH checking, which also did build its own Java objects during parsing. WithG files coming from huge DB dump formatted in XML, it used up to 10 times - as much memory as the size of the input file.e  H If you only need data from a few entities or just convert or store it inG different format in an other database, you are far better off with SAX.I  C The main problem with Java is not really the speed anymore with JIT E compilers. It's its hunger for memory and the fact that the JVMs neediF preallocated memory for their heap. So, prepare for much paging space.   -- m* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:44:21 GMTp  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>Y Subject: Re: Prerequisite Products and IPF Porting (was: Re: The Final Knell Has  Soundedy8 Message-ID: <r168ot4ak3epl5qni71kd42m9nshch77k2@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:15:05 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:'   >Hoff Hoffman wrote:9 >>   We heard you the first time.  Really.  (No offense.)l > K >Mr Hoffman, is Compaq management aware that by pre-announcing the death ofDI >Alpha before having any details of the future of VMS on IA64 and key ISVbH >corrdination of announcements, that it really hurt its credibility withG >regards to its attempts at re-assuring customers that VMS isn't dead ?p >s  > Perhaps they decided to get the word out before rumors started; surfacing and the Inquirer got hold of it - a.la. Alpha NT.e  @ From my experiences with the Alpha NT fiasco I learned that it'sB better to hear directly from the corporate management than to hear2 from the trade rags (and I use that term loosely).  > In both cases we don't have the full impact (ISVs, engineering? answers, etc) worked out in time for the announcement, but I am E positive that telling the Tru64, OpenVMS, and Tandem teams to come upB. with plans would have resulted in early leaks.  E Sometimes, especially with bad news, ya gotta get the worst over withh quickly, and then move on.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:34:33 -0700f' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>t( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.+ Message-ID: <3B843379.9D4EB6B8@caltech.edu>s   john nixon wrote:i   >d3 > First up,  ahead of schedule was the VMS Cluster. 4 > Next up, on schedule were the Compaq Unix systems.G > Then came the IBM Mainframes, with a few problems and somewhat behinde > schedule. M > Lastly, with all kinds of problems (and some very sleep deprived sysadmins)  > came the Solaris systems.f  L This is exactly what I would have predicted.  And had you thrown NT into the mix I'd expect that thelM small army of sysops needed to keep them running would still be struggling tot get all their systems back up.  O Over the weekend the IBM Deskstar 75 Gb drive in my Solaris box died.  (After aaJ piddling 4 months of service).    Restoring the system wasn't particularly/ difficult in terms of the operations - in fact,aO it was very much like restoring a VMS system (although I've only ever done that?K from a local drive). There were some extra steps on the Solaris end though.d   VMS  Solaris; +         +           open the box, replace the failed diskmE +         +           boot from CDROM to a running version of the OS.oN -         +           start up enough of a network to read the tape across the	 local netm6 -         +           partition the drive  (2 minutes)G -         +           create file systems on the partitions (2 minutes)oI +         +           restore the drive/partition using backup/ufsrestoregK -         +           run fsck on the restored partition (times varied, <10k minutes)O -         +           installboot (set the disk to boot the correct partition 1r minute)hK +         -           set SRM to boot from the disk (if replacing an entires system)l +         +           reboot  M Also not indicated in this is that for VMS you'd just do the one BACKUP/IMAGE  per disk, whereas J for Solaris (and other Unices) you generally have to backup each partition separately, ie, steps 5-7fG have to be done N times per disk, where N is the number of partitions..n  Sometimes that'shK a good thing (one corrupted partition) and usually it's not (I usually lose  whole disks, not single partitions).d  L The thing I did learn the hard way from this experience is that ufsdump runsO several fold faster than does ufsrestore.  So if you're expecting that since itrJ took 5 hours to make all the backup tapes, it will take 5 hours to restoreO them, you're in for another 10 hours or so of unexpected down time.  And if youeJ were expecting to use the second 5 hours to restore another system, you'reF probably going to have to sleep on the computer room floor.  BACKUP isK apparently able to keep a DLT streaming both when writing to, and restoringdI from a save set, and my recollection is that making an image save set and-M restoring one take pretty much the same time.  ufsrestore, on the other hand,oL has some intrinsic performance problems.  There are other unix backup tools,L variants of tar, for instance, but last I looked none of the free ones  know3 how to handle an ACL (which we use on this system).   K It's really odd to me that after all these years there's still no Unix tooln around that's smart enoughK to backup a full disk, and give the option of restoring the disk (partitione& table, fs, and data) or just restoringJ one partition.   After all, if this Uber tool just stored: partition info,F boot info (if any), dump of partition1, dump of partition2..., dump ofL partitionN, it would seem to have all of the data required to rebuild a fullK disk automatically, or just a subset of partitions,  using nothing but a shc" script and all the existing tools.M And, since I'm wishing on a star, it would be nice if it was bright enough tor
 keep the tapeoO drive spinning at full speed in both directions!  In the meantime, chalk one upx for VMS.  Too bad thatK in my end of the market, where VMS is essentially extinct,  this particularAB benefit is not the deciding issue in very many purchase decisions.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0400o) From: John Johnstone <jj_usenet@mail.com>v( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.( Message-ID: <3B841AB1.57CB1975@mail.com>   David Mathog wrote:n > 	 [snipped]o > N > The thing I did learn the hard way from this experience is that ufsdump runsQ > several fold faster than does ufsrestore.  So if you're expecting that since itbL > took 5 hours to make all the backup tapes, it will take 5 hours to restoreQ > them, you're in for another 10 hours or so of unexpected down time.  And if youaL > were expecting to use the second 5 hours to restore another system, you'reH > probably going to have to sleep on the computer room floor.  BACKUP isM > apparently able to keep a DLT streaming both when writing to, and restoringoK > from a save set, and my recollection is that making an image save set andMO > restoring one take pretty much the same time.  ufsrestore, on the other hand,uN > has some intrinsic performance problems.  There are other unix backup tools,N > variants of tar, for instance, but last I looked none of the free ones  know5 > how to handle an ACL (which we use on this system).j	 [snipped]p  F Don't forget that even with VMS Backup, although it does a good job ofK keeping the tape fully occupied during a restore, a restore pretty much has.G to take longer than the backup since there's much more overhead, on VMSlI especially, to create a new file on disk compared to backing up a file tofK tape.  I've usually seen about a 25% percent increase in the amount of timew1 for a restore.  As always, your mileage may vary.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:12:31 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope., Message-ID: <3B84668B.4E03A983@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote: H > resolved. The NT team took 48 hours to restore a limited service and 4E > days to recover everything. This was not lost on management either!r  N It all has to do with the disaster recovery mandate. If you are tasked to do aM disaster recovery where your system is back up in 15 minutes, you will selectaJ a D-R architecture that will allow that. If you are tasked to do D-R for aK less important system that can afford to be down for a day or two, then you  will plan it that way.  L Generally, system managers of serious systems tend to design and prepare forL D-R much better whereas companies generally hire cheap newbies to handle theH systems that they bought because they were cheap. But put an experiencedM manager at the helm of an NT system, and you might get some fairly impressiveu? results if the later can plan well, inside of NT's limitations.e  I The best surprise is no surprise. If you know what to expect during a D-RlJ plan, and if you train and test at regular intervals, then the process, noY matter how long it takes (minutes, days) should be smooth and go as was planned/expected.r  H If it takes 4 days after the NT systems has been rebooted to check whichL transactions were processed and manually re-enter the lost transactions, andN this was the expected and accepted delay, then there is nothing wrong with it.H If, on the other hand, that NT system had a mandate to be up and runningI within 4 hours and it took 4 days to get to that point, then that is bad.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:18:31 -0400c' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>>( Subject: Re: Some postive points I hope.( Message-ID: <9m2061$kkl$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message% news:3B843379.9D4EB6B8@caltech.edu...a   ...U  G > Over the weekend the IBM Deskstar 75 Gb drive in my Solaris box died.o (After a  > piddling 4 months of service).  J I remember reading somewhere that the 75 GB IBM drives made in Hungary hadE defects leading to very short service lives.  You might want to use ab  different disk as a replacement.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:07:03 +1200h& From: A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj> Subject: Sqlsrv_manage2 Message-ID: <01C12BE5.44AEDC20@PATRICK.FSC.COM.FJ>  j We're using Oracle RDB SQL V7.0-5 on Open VMS V7.1-2.  Where can I get the above utility ie SQLSRV_MANAGE?   AB   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:02:50 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)v( Subject: Standalone Backup Boot Question0 Message-ID: <3b846f4c.24953020@news.wcc.govt.nz>   Hi All,e  D Trying to implement some Disaster Recovery procedures and doing some testing.D Created Standalone Backup using STABACKIT on a VAX 4000-705A running OpenVMS 7.2a0 Tape was created on a TZ86 (connected via HSD30)  B Transferred the Tape to a DLT4000 which I've plugged into the SCSI Port of a MicroVAX 3100.  > From >>> Tape Device shows up as a Quantum 4000, Device MKA500  @ When I put the Standalone Backup Tape into the new DLT Device it, always sets off the Use Cleaning Tape light.  $ If I try and boot from MKA500: I get
 ?06 HLT INSTR 
 	 PC 00000D91     Bootstrap failure  F So, is this a case that I can't just use any old DLT device that comes to mind?E Or, that I can't use a Standalone Backup created on a VAX4000 to bootl a MicroVAX 3100?  F The objective is to have, off site, a selection of material that wouldE allow me to rebuild a VAX, first step was to be able to boot the VAX, F probably sourced from a reseller at short notice with nothing on it in$ the event we'd lost everything here.  C Nope we do not have a nice Disaster Recovery site with a spare VAX!nF And, just for good measure, we're on a fairly active fault line, got aB nice shake the other evening (7.0 - but the epicentre was some way off!)h  * As always, thanks in advance for any info.   Rob.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:55:01 -0500h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o, Subject: Re: Standalone Backup Boot Question' Message-ID: <3B847E95.504940A8@fsi.net>    Rob Buxton wrote:y > 	 > Hi All,s > F > Trying to implement some Disaster Recovery procedures and doing some
 > testing.F > Created Standalone Backup using STABACKIT on a VAX 4000-705A running
 > OpenVMS 7.2o2 > Tape was created on a TZ86 (connected via HSD30) > D > Transferred the Tape to a DLT4000 which I've plugged into the SCSI > Port of a MicroVAX 3100. > @ > From >>> Tape Device shows up as a Quantum 4000, Device MKA500 > B > When I put the Standalone Backup Tape into the new DLT Device it. > always sets off the Use Cleaning Tape light. > & > If I try and boot from MKA500: I get > ?06 HLT INSTRe >          PC 00000D91 >  >  Bootstrap failure > H > So, is this a case that I can't just use any old DLT device that comes
 > to mind?G > Or, that I can't use a Standalone Backup created on a VAX4000 to bootV > a MicroVAX 3100? > H > The objective is to have, off site, a selection of material that wouldG > allow me to rebuild a VAX, first step was to be able to boot the VAX,fH > probably sourced from a reseller at short notice with nothing on it in& > the event we'd lost everything here. > E > Nope we do not have a nice Disaster Recovery site with a spare VAX!vH > And, just for good measure, we're on a fairly active fault line, got aD > nice shake the other evening (7.0 - but the epicentre was some way > off!)h  H Take care to ensure that there's no compression enabled on the Tx86 (did8 it support that?). Otherwise, yeah - that's a tough one.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE SystemsO http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:41:47 GMTo- From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com>0' Subject: Re: Sys$Library:LIBOTS Problem ( Message-ID: <3B846D64.582E0954@home.com>   Rick Dyson wrote:t > G > I've been told I need to get this library installed with this config:s > F > LIBOTS;1         Open Hdr Shared            Lnkbl           Resident > F > However, I am not sure how to do this.  It is causing my DECnet V toA > bugcheck at each boot, so I have had to disable DECnet for now.t8 > I am not conversant with INSTALL, but have tried this: > G > $ install replace sys$library:libots /open /shar /resident /head/linkS  B 	Thanks everyone!  SCS claimed it was a problem probably caused byI an incomplete Autogen.  I don't agree, :), but they pointed me toward the-L VMSIMAGES.DAT which listed the file and the INSTALL qualifiers that are used& in startup, so I was able to use them.   Rick   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:04:26 -0500s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r Subject: Re: Take it elsewhere' Message-ID: <3B8472BA.9F87376E@fsi.net>u   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > | > In article <JsNg7.10291$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes: > I > > Actually, what may be a better idea is to follow the example of othersK > > newsgroups and put forward a proposal to create comp.os.vms.discuss forcL > > political/policy discussions and leave comp.os.vms for technical issues. > > L > > What do other people think ? Note that I am _NOT_ offering to drive thisN > > proposal, but am offering it as a suggestion in case others want to create > > a formal proposal. > 6 > The "powers that be" frown on having any newsgroups: > - >                 This.That.Theother.Subtopici >  > at the same time as: > $ >                 This.That.Theother > % > also exists.  Pascal ran into this.4  3 Dunno 'bout that. Among my newsgroup subscriptions:I comp.dcom.modems comp.dcom.modems.cable  D ...and others, mostly Linux groups that I seldom look at these days.  1 FWIW (probably very little)x   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:52:03 -0400e; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>b Subject: Re: TAR files in VMSg$ Message-ID: <3b83ff93$1@news.si.com>  I >Is there a utility that will just copy one TAR tape to another TAR tape,eD >without creating the intermediate VS file?  Of course, I need a VMS utility.  9 Assume the tapes are $10$MKA100 and $10$MKA200.  DO this:a  % $ mount $10$mka200 whateverthelabelisp $ mount $10$mka200: otherlabel% $ copy $10$mka100:[]*.* $10$mka200:[]I $ dism $10$mka100: $ dism $10$mka200: --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com.= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:32:42 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>( Subject: Re: TAR files in VMSo' Message-ID: <3B84795A.95727CE4@fsi.net>d  
 Hi, Brian,   Brian Tillman wrote: > K > >Is there a utility that will just copy one TAR tape to another TAR tape, F > >without creating the intermediate VS file?  Of course, I need a VMS
 > utility. > ; > Assume the tapes are $10$MKA100 and $10$MKA200.  DO this:a > ' > $ mount $10$mka200 whateverthelabelish  > $ mount $10$mka200: otherlabel' > $ copy $10$mka100:[]*.* $10$mka200:[]i > $ dism $10$mka100: > $ dism $10$mka200:  E This assumes that the tape volumes are ANSI-labelled. This concept iseE foreign to UN*X ("tar" is the UN*X equivalent (not equal) to BACKUP). G Such volumes have no labels, volume, dataset or otherwise. Hence, treat ) them as "raw" devices/volumes (/FOREIGN).s   -- r David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:25:56 -0500r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: The Final Knell Has Sounded' Message-ID: <3B8477C4.FA525497@fsi.net>    Robert Deininger wrote:eB > [Snipped, but acknowledged: proxy fight for control of CA, Inc.]  F From what I've been reading, high prices, fat executive bonus packagesG and other perq.'s and severe customer dissatisfaction seem to be at theR heart of the issue.s  E Of course, we who remember the "original" Polycenter Suite understande@ what that's all about, don't we? (Polycenter Console Manager and< Performance Solution being among the more useful items, IMO)   -- B David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 21:54:08 -0700: From: extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de (Karl Rohwedder)J Subject: Re: Urgent: installed 7.3 & my ultra-scsi RAID RA3000 disappeared= Message-ID: <2865b31a.0108222054.2ae822ea@posting.google.com>w  E I have just installed an ES40 with a RA3000 array with plain VMS V7.3i (no patches). No problems.    e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<dvd7otsbduldmudkenusk426f80bc94nu8@4ax.com>... E > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:10:14 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r > wrote: > 6 > >On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:03:45 +0100, "Chris Sharman"( > ><chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote: > >n9 > >>Taken delivery of a nice new DS20E with ultra RA3000.o6 > >>It arrived with 7.2-1, working, all disks visible.< > >>I upgraded to 7.3, and the RA3000 disks all disappeared. > >>I've not seen any errors.  > > C > >Do the disks show up at console level? I hope you can solve thisfF > >easily because this could demonstrate one of my major problems withH > >the desupport of controllers recently announced (including the RA3000G > >although the date  is June 2002 for your particular config). What if D > >you upgrade VMS and your disks vanish or corrupt? The option of a > G > Chris I've just checked the current RA3000 specs and VMS 7.3 does notn/ > appear to be formally supported yet  (EVER??)  >  o > RA3000 Specifications  >   > Protocol Support Ultra2/Ultra3 > + > Open VMS V7.1, 7.1-2, 7.2, 7.2-1H1, 7.2-1o > > > If you check the same specs for the RA8000/HSZ80 there is no > restriction on VMS version.n > ( > I've also  sent this in email but try  > H > SYSGEN> connect devicename:/noadapter/driver=sys$dkdriver and see whatH > happens. This should force VMS to connect the drive even if it thoughtF > there was a problem on autoconfig. No guarantee of it working thoughD > and I've only used this with tapes never disks. Actually maybe youF > need SYSMAN> IO CONNECT etc on Alpha as the help says) but I thought6 > the SYSGEN command worked fine last time I tried it. >  >  > D > >controller firmware upgrade will not be available. If you have toD > >solve the problem with any kind of patch I'd be panicky after midF > >2002.. I trust you are aware of the desupport notice already issuedE > >for the RA3000 even though t is still on sale? Can't recall if youdH > >took part in that thread., Did Compaq actually tell you that there isH > >a desupport notice already out when you bought it? If not I seriously$ > >hope I'm not first with the news. > >e > >>Help please, urgently. > >> > >>Thanks,a > >>Chris Sharmank > >>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:25:09 +0200)= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>s% Subject: Re: V5.5-2 Password Recovery ) Message-ID: <3B840715.AF45CB6B@gtech.com>    BigFish wrote:E > Anyone remember how to recover a VMS version 5.5-2 password? If so,t > please share.l  5 VMS passwords are stored in a hashed form and can notf
 be recreated.p  = You could try and start a password guesser, which if you haveu> SYSPRV and access to SYSUAF.DAT can guess the password in most cases in some days.s Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:28:20 +0200o= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>w% Subject: Re: V5.5-2 Password Recoveryr) Message-ID: <3B8407D4.A1659DFA@gtech.com>n   Carl Karcher wrote:aC > You can't without resorting to brute force (trying every possibleSK > password character combination). Read access to the SYSUAF.DAT file would F > be required. As an exercise, I found cracking a 6 character password0 > takes about 6 days on an Alphaserver 1200/533.  7 Before trying systematic combinations, then trying withj< a list of known words is probably optimal (f.ex. 50000 known< words is very small compared to all 6 character combinations* and the chance of a hit is relative high).   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 15:02:47 -0400+ From: randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew)t5 Subject: Re: VMS high reliability needed by Air Forceu, Message-ID: <2001Aug22.150247.13100@srs.gov>  J In article <3B82C1F4.CE30489F@videotron.ca>, jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca  says...e >cM >But in light of the Alpha murder, consider that this deal was in the works aiL >long long time ago, having a *NEW* deal signed in light of the alpha murder >would have far more value.w  9 I'm a big supporter of free speech and all, but this talko; of the Alpha "murder" is getting a wee little bit tiresome.n  7 Besides, computer language is already too violent (kill   the process, abort, crash, etc.)   Randyo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:37:24 -0500,1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o5 Subject: Re: VMS high reliability needed by Air Forcei' Message-ID: <3B847A74.4E4996AD@fsi.net>    Randy Burlew wrote:s > K > In article <3B82C1F4.CE30489F@videotron.ca>, jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.cay	 > says...  > >kO > >But in light of the Alpha murder, consider that this deal was in the works aoN > >long long time ago, having a *NEW* deal signed in light of the alpha murder > >would have far more value.e > ; > I'm a big supporter of free speech and all, but this talkg= > of the Alpha "murder" is getting a wee little bit tiresome.  > 9 > Besides, computer language is already too violent (killt" > the process, abort, crash, etc.)  ( Story told by a co-worker some time ago:  G Overheard at a party: a tech. support person on the phone to a computerrG operator: "It did, huh? Well, o.k. Just take a dump and I'll look at itw in the morning. Bye."n   -- r David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:10:56 GMT B From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>, Subject: Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?5 Message-ID: <QASg7.10882$2u.78100@www.newsranger.com>   ) On 22 Aug 2001 08:04:19 -0500, in articleu? <4Qs11WlAJnlP@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen wrote:e >e{ >In article <fUMg7.10237$2u.73324@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:tM >> Does anybody know of any moves to add a VMS/Alpha backend to GCC 3.x alongs+ >> with any necessary changes to binutils ?p >>B >ACT supports GNAT on Alpha VMS.  I would presume the backend is aA >requirement when GNAT sources get merged into the GCC tree (real  >soon now).u  H Yes, it's really GNAT that I am interested in. (As I am running it on myI hobbyist Alpha, I don't have ACT support, and hence don't know what ACT'sw future plans for VMS are.)  I I didn't get any replies when I asked in comp.lang.ada about GCC 3.x/GNAT K on VMS a few weeks ago, and I got the impression from Robert Dewar's recentaG postings in c.l.a that ACT was concentrating on getting GNAT on GCC 3.xt& running on a small set of ports first.  K My interest therefore has changed to seeing if anybody else is working on aBK VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x, so that I could have a go at trying to buildeL the Ada frontend from source (compiling it using the current public VMS GNAT	 version.)s  G Has anybody with GCC backend experience got an idea of how much work istJ involved in building a VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x or is working on such a backend ?r   Simon.  M PS: Robert Dewar's last estimate for the GNAT source for GCC 3.x was sometimetG during September, in case anybody who doesn't read c.l.a is interested.n   -- a; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP K In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered afE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:31:46 +0200I= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>-, Subject: Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?) Message-ID: <3B8408A2.7E442022@gtech.com>o   Simon Clubley wrote:J > Yes, it's really GNAT that I am interested in. (As I am running it on myK > hobbyist Alpha, I don't have ACT support, and hence don't know what ACT'so > future plans for VMS are.) > K > I didn't get any replies when I asked in comp.lang.ada about GCC 3.x/GNATsM > on VMS a few weeks ago, and I got the impression from Robert Dewar's recenthI > postings in c.l.a that ACT was concentrating on getting GNAT on GCC 3.xe( > running on a small set of ports first. > M > My interest therefore has changed to seeing if anybody else is working on atM > VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x, so that I could have a go at trying to build N > the Ada frontend from source (compiling it using the current public VMS GNAT > version.)a > I > Has anybody with GCC backend experience got an idea of how much work ispL > involved in building a VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x or is working on such
 > a backend ?e  ? The interest for GCC (and GNAT) has always been moderate in the 
 VMS world.  B And the hobbyist license that made DEC C/C++ available for various= freeware projects made it even more difficult to find people.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:19:46 -0400 4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>, Subject: Re: VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x ?4 Message-ID: <3B8421F2.4070407@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Simon Clubley wrote: >>? >>>Does anybody know of any moves to add a VMS/Alpha backend to29 >>>GCC 3.x along with any necessary changes to binutils ?i >>>o > D > Yes, it's really GNAT that I am interested in. (As I am running itF > on my hobbyist Alpha, I don't have ACT support, and hence don't know' > what ACT's future plans for VMS are.)  >  > @ > My interest therefore has changed to seeing if anybody else isB > working on a VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x, so that I could haveA > a go at trying to build the Ada frontend from source (compilingh0 > it using the current public VMS GNAT version.) > A > Has anybody with GCC backend experience got an idea of how much A > work is involved in building a VMS/Alpha backend for GCC 3.x orT  > is working on such a backend ? >   A Which backend?  GCC is a whole family of incremental translators.0  A For example the C compiler runs one independent program to handle E the pre-processor statements into C code, then a separate independent D program to compile the C code into assembler, finally ending up with* an assembler that produces object modules.  C If the GNAT frontend produces either C or C++ code, then there is a A chance that you can feed that into either Compaq C or Compaq C++,XE both available under the hobby license (media for C++ a little harderiE to find).  It should not take much to build a filter to translate the ) GNU extensions to C in to something ANSI.V    F If the GNAT frontend produces the GNU assembler format on output, thenE all you really need to port for the backend is the assembler program.y  H  From the last time I played with the assembler (on VAX) it was supplied6 and built separately from the rest of the GCC package.  E And if the output is either VAX or ALPHA assembly instructions in theeA GNU format, you may be able to find a way to translate these intoeF either Macro32 or Macro64.  This may or may not be an easier task thanE getting a current build of GCC or the GNU Assembler for ALPHA runningu on OpenVMS.s  
 Good Luck,   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:12:39 -0500l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> $ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....' Message-ID: <3B8474A7.291B0EAB@fsi.net>w   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > G > The simple truth is that the next job is usually a result of personalrL > contacts - networking.  Many of the job listing sites are next-to-useless, > except for entry positions./ > L > I would venture to say that there may be opportunities in companies of theN > people who read this conference.  It might make you think about exactly what > you say here.   @ If I pulled my punches because I was concerned about what others@ thought, I'd have to crawl in a hole and hate myself for being aH hypocrite. I wouldn't respect someone who did, I would expect no respect" from anyone who saw me do it here.  H A mentor of mine (Denis Waitley) said, "If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything".   --   David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemsw http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:19:44 -0400s  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>$ Subject: Re: Wailing and Moaning....4 Message-ID: <1010822235838.350E-100000@Ives.egh.com>    On 22 Aug 2001, Rob Young wrote:  ^ > In article <3B836B10.6A48B824@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > Rob Young wrote:S > >>         Trivia: do you know the *only* thing that is left in an AIX filesystemnK > >>         when the following command runs (running as root out of root)?i > >>   > >>         # rm -r /*  > >>  G > >>         So yes... you build safeguards for that nasty rm command.   > > ; > > Perhaps the same thing with $DELETE [000000...]*.*;*  ?o > < > 	Not at all.  The above command wipes out one disk/volume. > 	 > 				Robl  9 The original posted example (on Unix) was something like:    	# rm -r '$DISK'/*  ? (not sure of exact Unix syntax), where the environment variablenD "DISK" wasn't defined, so this had the effect of deleting everything
 on all disks.   & There are three close VMS equivalents:  ! 1)	$ delete DISK:[000000...]*.*;*t" 2)	$ delete 'disk'[000000...]*.*;*# 3)	$ delete 'disk':[000000...]*.*;*9  B The 1st case uses a logical name and the 2nd two use a DCL symbol.  ? In the 1st case, if the logical name isn't defined, the commande# will error and nothing will happen.   A The second and third cases differ in that the symbol includes then/ colon in the 2nd case and doesn't in the third.2  E If you use the 2nd case, it will delete everything [*] on the current:B default disk (not all disks like the Unix example apparently did.)  C In the third case, it will get an error and do nothing (: by itselflA is not a valid disk name, but what actually happens is DCL thinksiE you are defining a label interactively ("delete :"), which it ignoresiF and then thinks there is no command on the line, because the remainder3 begins with "[" instead of an alphabetic character.2  C I'm not sure what would happen if you had DCL$PATH defined... WouldjB it parse the wild-card file spec and then execute the 1st matchingB .COM or .EXE, or does that only happen when the spec consists onlyB of a file name?  I don't particularly want to make myself a guinea pig for this experiment.  C I'm also not sure what would happen in a command file or batch job.$D It would probably be happy with the bogus label definitition in thatA case, but still [000000...]*.*;* isn't a legal DCL command, so it: should still do nothing.  B [*] On VMS, "everything" is all deletable files.  By default, thisC doesn't include directories and many system files.  You either need ? BYPASS privilege, or to explicitly change an undeletable file'so; protection code to allow deletion before you can delete it. B When it encounters an undeletable file, VMS delete will keep goingA with the next matching wild-card file.  I don't know what happensM& on Unix.  It may depend on the system.   --   John Santos- Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:28:02 -0400T- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>C= Subject: Re: Wailing at Eunuchs (was: Wailing and Moaning...)u, Message-ID: <3B846A2D.846F3DAD@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:I > > Don't get me wrong VMS is a wonderfull OS but there are valid reasonsq1 > > Unix is out there and is as popular as it is.a > 7 >         Yep.. billions of flies can't be wrong, yawn.e  L If you buy a Suzuki Sidekick instead of a Rolls Royce, are you wrong ?  UnixM may not be the Cadillac of operating systems, but if it gets the job done andeB costs less than VMS, then there is nothing wrong with that choice.  H There are very very few people who actually really need/requires a RollsM Royce. Perhaps Compaq should focus VMS marketing to those industries for whom7, vanity is important (law firms for example).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:05:30 -0400A( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>' Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? + Message-ID: <3B848F1A.43631C9A@bigfoot.com>r   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > >m > >u > > Hunter Goatley wrote:  > >> > > Q > >> I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"eN > >> as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's+ > >> sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)n > >>I > > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least itlG > > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,eH > > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toE > > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.o > D > Obviously you have spent insufficient time studying those cartoonsD > from a business perspective.  Consider that the ACME vendor always/ > ends up as supplier to the losing side !  :-)a > H If for some odd reason you manage to hold an MBA, the first thing I'd do< if I were you is to demand my money back.  First of all, theA cayote-roadrunner conflict does not involve winning or losing, it G involves predator trying to catch prey. For instance, if you were to go7C hunting for some animal that ALWAYS seemed to elude you, a lot more0H money would be made by selling weapons to the hunter, as the prey has noE need of weapons (or has money to pay you for that matter).  Secondly,sC because we know that the cayote is immortal, this is a never endinghH revenue stream for any company.  So in fact, supplying the "losing side"F as you put it, is infinitely more profitable than offering products toF the side that has internal capability to defend against your products.   HM   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2001 19:19:28 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)eI Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: Theo3 Message-ID: <AwB$SuRnvYTn@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  V In article <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: >  > Hunter Goatley wrote:o >>  O >> I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"pL >> as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's) >> sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)s >> gG > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least it-E > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,oF > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toC > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.   D But wait!  Didn't all the ACME equipment the Coyote used blow up in = his face?  ACME would be a better suited for a M$oft product.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:59:39 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>AI Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: The-' Message-ID: <3B84719B.C18933B3@fsi.net>u   Marty Kuhrt wrote: > X > In article <3B83522F.7474D08B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > >v > > Hunter Goatley wrote:. > >>Q > >> I don't know who came up with "Alpha," but I always took it to mean "first,"eN > >> as in "best."  From that standpoint, I think it's a great name.  And it's+ > >> sure better as "Alpha" than "AXP"! 8-)e > >>I > > I always thought they should have named it ACME, that way at least itaG > > would get some advertising every time a roadrunner cartoon came on,tH > > which is considerably more than it ever got from DEC/Compaq.  Not toE > > mention it would have helped the cayote aim those rockets better.  > E > But wait!  Didn't all the ACME equipment the Coyote used blow up in ? > his face?  ACME would be a better suited for a M$oft product.u  ; Well, y'know, there's that whole product liability thing...    -- - David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:34:32 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>oY Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheFinal Knell Has a' Message-ID: <3B8479C8.FA2A78A7@fsi.net>    Howard S Shubs wrote:i > ) > In article <3B8319B5.DE20609F@fsi.net>,l5 >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:c > @ > > The irony of that just dawned on me - "Alpha - VMS's omega". > N > Worse.  I was trying to clean out the dust from an old Alpha workstation.  I- > kept thinking, "What I need here is a VAX".s   *CHUCKLE*  Good one!   -- n David J. Dachteraw dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 05:31:00 GMT # From: Kevin Waugh <waugh@met.co.nz>eY Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheFinal Knell Has p. Message-ID: <20010823.5310068@waugh.met.co.nz>   VAX64 sounds good to me...  6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  J On 22/08/2001, 05:23:35, "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote=20=  I regarding What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re: TheFi=r nal=20 Knell Has Sounded)):    I > In the Greek Alphabet, Beta is the next letter. Though, based on the v=w ibe=20I I'm getting from everyone, perhaps Omega would be a good name for the=20=d   Itanic/Alpha hybrid.  I > And nothing personal, but you reminded me how annoying ASCII art can b=- e.=20- =3D)  C > >>> Alan E. Feldman <afeldman@gfigroup.com> 08/21/2001 1:14:00 PMmH > That just goes to show what a cool name VAX is: VAX. How can you have=  I > a cooler name for a computer?: VAX. Maybe instead of Alpha they should=2  C > have called it VAX64. Sounds better than IA64, no? (That's not tor. > imply that that was the choice at the time.)  9 > And VAX/VMS also has an unbeatable ring to it: VAX/VMS.i  ) > Besides, what letter comes after alpha?r  5 > Also, alpha is already used a lot for other things.p  E > And if Alpha were instead VAX64 then maybe the people who associatepD > VMS *only* with VAX wouldn't think of it as a legacy system. JMHO.   > Disclaimer: JMHO   &-) > Alan E. Feldmann > afeldman@gfigroup.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:01:16 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>pY Subject: Re: What cooler name than VAX? (was Re: Common Code (was Re:TheFinal Knell Has Si, Message-ID: <3B849C2B.74245F0E@videotron.ca>   Kevin Waugh wrote: >  > VAX64 sounds good to me...  J Since Alpha is now past tense, perhaps you should have said "VAX64 sounded good to me..."  * Get used to "Itanium I", "Itanium II" etc.  J No matter the performance, the quicker VMS becomes available on a platformM whose death hasn't been declared, the better. I think Compaq should strive tolH release VMS on Itanium ASAP and not wait until after EV7.  EV7 will onlyM benefit exsiting customers, or those few for whom the incremental performancewM advantage of Alpha over Itanium will be necessary. For all others, being ableiN to start building on a platform with a longer term survival is more important,D even if initially, the performance may not be the best in the world.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.467 ************************