1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 05 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 676       Contents:- Re: accessing sharable fortran image from IDL  Re: DEC is DEAD  Re: DEC is DEAD  Re: DECdocument <FIGURE_FILE> ' Re: Example of server code using thread ' Re: Example of server code using thread & Re: File cache performance for dummies& Re: File cache performance for dummies& Re: File cache performance for dummies Freeware for VAX' Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld ' Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld ' Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld  RE: HELP TYPE/HEADER( Re: Inquirer article on Compaq and Alpha, Re: Installing Icon permanently to CDE menu?# Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracuda ' Re: Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracuda  Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS RE: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS Re: Linus' view on VMS$ Re: Mozilla DECWserver crash problemH Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - you are invited nonblockig socket  Re: nonblockig socket  Re: nonblockig socket  Re: OSU Webserver problems. Re: OT: Andrew Harrison : Alive & Still At SUN
 PC connection  Re: PC connection F Re: Q: Tool or script to remove nonprinting characters from a SET HOSTF Re: Q: Tool or script to remove nonprinting characters from a SET HOST Re: RECALL does not work Re: RECALL does not work Re: RECALL does not work Re: RECALL does not work Re: SPL July 1993  Re: SPL July 1993 . Re: the Compaq pseudo-technical spin continues  Re: tubes (was: RE: DEC is DEAD) Veritas on VMS?  Re: Veritas on VMS?  Re: Veritas on VMS?  Re: Veritas on VMS?  Re: Veritas on VMS?  Re: VMS EffortJ Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett PacJ Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett PacJ Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett PacP Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett Pac PacPa) Re: VMS marketing (advertising) sighting. 4 Re: Was the Alpha to Intel agreement ever approved ?4 Re: Was the Alpha to Intel agreement ever approved ?/ Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query. / Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query. / Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:04:51 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: accessing sharable fortran image from IDL3 Message-ID: <kV2dMr7weK$h@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <db5d6771.0112041933.4eac1854@posting.google.com>, pcadmin@MHL.NSW.GOV.AU (BRONSON) writes: > Hi, - > I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to VMS.  > F > I am currently trying to write some IDL code that can access Fortran > routines. A > In the IDL documenation it says that one can access the Fortran  > routines in a sharable image.   @    I assume you mean Research System's Interactive Data LanguageD    (there's about a dozen things called IDL), but it doens't really 
    matter.  F    When you access a shareable image, the image activator assumes it'sE    in sys$share unless there's a logical name matching the image name H    (without the .exe) pointing elsehwere.  It looks like you've defined J    the logical name properly in the first instance, but not in the second.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 09:48:25 GMT ) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)  Subject: Re: DEC is DEAD' Message-ID: <9ukqh9$jfs$5@joe.rice.edu>   - Antonio (antonio_paluccio@hotmail.com) wrote:  : Greetings from Antonio,  : D Thought for the day: Antonio Paluccio is really Michael Capellas :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 07:49:10 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: DEC is DEAD3 Message-ID: <Zqi40sb2NNXL@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <i87P7.127266$uB.17459911@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > < > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:cmlsavNPoqYt@eisner.encompasserve.org... K >>    OBTW, my Pro-350 is healthy now, too. Even if it is just an F-11 chip ! >>    set and maxed out at 128KB.  > L > I would have sworn that an F-11 (and a Pro-350) maxed out at 256 KB (well,N > 248 KB plus I/O space).  But my memory isn't what it used to be (or at least3 > I think I remember that it used to be better...).   B    Maybe it does.  I thought that they only made one size daughter=    board, and my system has both.  I'm no expert on the Pros.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:05:27 -0000, From: "Bob Knowles" <bob.knowles@compaq.com>& Subject: Re: DECdocument <FIGURE_FILE>1 Message-ID: <srlP7.140$BK1.3049@news.cpqcorp.net>    Thanks.    b : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:RON0i32V46t0@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ > In article <u0pr0qlpvvaq44@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:8 > > I don't have to hack the HTML.  I think it takes the "<FIGURE_FILE>(PS\..."9 > > file specification and changes the extension to .gif.  > J > That is my experience as well, although I happen to spell out POSTSCRIPT2 > in my SDML, rather than use the PS abbreviation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:03:58 -0500   From: Binh Nguyen <binh@egh.com>0 Subject: Re: Example of server code using thread' Message-ID: <3C0E0D2E.75D04927@egh.com>    Rushlan,  O I need to write a server that will listen on port 443 (secure port) for client. K When a client wants to talk, I'll spun a thread to listen to the port while O the original thread process the request.  The number of clients could be in the ; thousands!  None of the threads need to talk to each other.    Binh   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: >  > Hi !$ >         What is your primary task? >  > Binh Nguyen wrote: > > Q > > Hi,  is there any sample server code using thread that I can take a look at ? Q > > I've downloaded the http server written by David Jones, but there's not a lot O > > of documentation.  Any help would be appreciated.  BTW, I'd be writing this  > > in either C or basic.  > >  > > Thanks.  Binh  >  > -- > Cheers, Ruslan. F > +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+= >       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com : >         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS, >                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222C >    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU    --     Binh Nguyen    E-mail: binh@egh.com Phone :(781)861-0670   Fax   :(781)860-9321 Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.& 55 Waltham Street, Lexington, MA 02421   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:30:16 +0300 4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru>0 Subject: Re: Example of server code using thread0 Message-ID: <3C0E67B8.4CA2EBD1@smtp.deltatel.ru>  C http://StarLet.DeltaTel.RU/~laishev/nntp/*.* - it's a multithreaded / application, probaly you can use it as example.    Binh Nguyen wrote: > 
 > Rushlan, > Q > I need to write a server that will listen on port 443 (secure port) for client. M > When a client wants to talk, I'll spun a thread to listen to the port while Q > the original thread process the request.  The number of clients could be in the = > thousands!  None of the threads need to talk to each other.  >  > Binh >  > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: > >  > > Hi !& > >         What is your primary task? > >  > > Binh Nguyen wrote: > > > S > > > Hi,  is there any sample server code using thread that I can take a look at ? S > > > I've downloaded the http server written by David Jones, but there's not a lot Q > > > of documentation.  Any help would be appreciated.  BTW, I'd be writing this  > > > in either C or basic.  > > >  > > > Thanks.  Binh  > >  > > -- > > Cheers, Ruslan. H > > +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+? > >       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com < > >         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS. > >                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222E > >    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU  >  > -- > 
 > Binh Nguyen  >  > E-mail: binh@egh.com > Phone :(781)861-0670 > Fax   :(781)860-9321 > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.( > 55 Waltham Street, Lexington, MA 02421   --   Cheers, Ruslan. D +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+;       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com 8         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS*                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222A    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 00:38 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) / Subject: Re: File cache performance for dummies , Message-ID: <5DEC200100382026@gerg.tamu.edu>  ' hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam writes... k }In article <fdd7874.0112041215.1873485a@posting.google.com>, stephane_paquin@hotmail.com (SPaquin) writes:  } @ }  What is the particular performance problem you seek to solve? } D }:The job I use to compare is compilation of about 60 fortran source< }:files. It is not a representative use of the system but... } F }  Then it is useful only for purposes of edification (or to permit meE }  to pontificate :-), and is arguably not useful for application or  > }  system performance benchmarking.  (No offense is intended.) } 
 }:...they are G }:exactly the same on all systems and serve my purpose for comparison.   } J }  If your purpose is to optimize Fortran compilations, which is somethingJ }  you have already indicated is not the intended purpose of the system... } H }:I have looked at the accounting log and they are similar except direct# }:io ( 2500 on A and B, 1000 on C).  } G }  We made a subtle change to the meaning of direct I/O in V7.1, with a J }  correction that accounted for direct I/O completions previously missed.G }  That probably isn't a factor here, but (as will be detailed shortly) 8 }  I don't yet see nor have a baseline for the system... } : }: I am new to performance analysis so forgive my errors.  } F }  Your error is targeting what you think is the problem -- this is a H }  classic error with performance monitoring and tuning.  You will want K }  to perform a systematic review of the your goals FIRST.  While it might  I }  appear that this approach is obvious, until you identify and quantify  J }  your specific goals, tuning and even monitoring can be entirely futile. } H }  Once you have identified your your goals and have then determined theE }  performance of your local system baseline configuration, you must  G }  then determine the system configuration -- the OpenVMS version, the  H }  specific system hardware configuration details (down to the level of K }  the disks and the SCSI configuration), the sizes of the directory files  G }  involved, the system parameters, etc.  And you will want this system J }  baseline to carefully reflect your actual goals, as use of synthesized I }  benchmarks have been known to REDUCE the aggregate performance of the  K }  target environment.  You must tune what you plan to use, in other words, M }  and you must have a way to measure the improvements (or the consequences)  I }  of your theories and associated performance tweaks.  (And remember to  ' }  only tweak one "knob" at a time. :-)  } M }   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   * One very improtant thing not on your list:  F Make sure the accounts being used for all the tests on all the systems have identical quotas.  D If the account being used on system C has larger quotas than the one> on system A or B, this could explain a performance difference.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:55:42 +0000 - From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> / Subject: Re: File cache performance for dummies 0 Message-ID: <3C0DEF1E.75BB9B0@BlueBubble.UK.Com>   Carl Perkins wrote:   , > One very important thing not on your list: > H > Make sure the accounts being used for all the tests on all the systems > have identical quotas. > F > If the account being used on system C has larger quotas than the one@ > on system A or B, this could explain a performance difference.  F In addition to Carl's recommendation (and as I have already said in anE e-mail to the original poster), make sure that RMS parameters are the E same in all cases.  The fact that the direct IO counts were different ? suggests that one node might have had different RMS block count  set.  3 The original poster should show us the output from:   
 $ show rms $ show work  $ mcr sysgen show/rms   
 on each node.   	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 10:29:14 -0800 + From: stephane_paquin@hotmail.com (SPaquin) / Subject: Re: File cache performance for dummies < Message-ID: <fdd7874.0112051029.55fc0db9@posting.google.com>  B Well, since I didn't expect c.o.v to do the analysis for me, I wasC reluctant to put too much info on my posting so it would not become > too long to read. I am a regular reader of c.o.v and have seenF inexperienced posters(like me) be flamed for expecting c.o.v to do the@ work. I have searched with my limited ressources but didn't findD enough info about ACP_DIRCACHE. Let me answer some of the questions.   :  Hoff, I understand that much work is needed for sometimesD insignificant results and that the removal of a bottleneck only getsF you to the next one, that the manager must get a "feel" for the normalE operation of the computers before doing anything, make changes slowly  and check results.  A  They are Vax 3100 VMS 6.2 (not in a cluster). The quotas are the B same, as shown with sh proc/quota on each node. RMS quotas are theF same as shown with sh rms. The working set default is not the same but2 I adjust it to the same value with set work/limit.  >  Based on my research, one thing just jumped in my face when I7 compared the system parameters and that is my question:   C  What can cause the ACP_DIRCACHE current block value to be stuck at E its maximum of 65535 on A and B (16384 on C) and the hit rate for the 2 file system cache so low on A and B(but not on C)?  E  Although the applications are not exactly the same on all computers, @ they have been developped by the same programmers using the sameE techniques. What misfunction (or misuse of ressources) can cause this F behavior ? What incorrect application design can cause that ? If it is not the design, what else ?     Thanks 	  Stphane   o stephane_paquin@hotmail.com (SPaquin) wrote in message news:<fdd7874.0112040716.2c9402a9@posting.google.com>... A > I am new to performance analysis so forgive my errors. I have 3 G > identical VAX VMS 3100-98 512Mb having the same software on it. VAX A F > is backup, has 54 processes(11 users). VAX B(104 proc, 53 users) andD > C(80 proc,31 users) are in production. The same compilation job isD > slower on VAX A than on VAX C. Since VAX A has almost no workload,B > this is puzzling. I have read the OpenVMS Performance ManagementE > manual and searched my systems for the IO cache performance. I used D > MON FILE and MON IO for 24h to get a sense of the hit % and other. > Here is some data: > % >                 VAX A      B      C & > DIR FCB           63%      71     99& > DIR DATA          16       22     99& > FILE HDR          35       52     95 > & > DIRECT IO         54       60     19& > BUFFER IO         33       99     56' > PAGE READ IO RATE 2.1      3.2    2.6  > G >  I noticed a very bad hit rate for DIR DATA on VAX A and B, excellent G > on C. How is that possible? I found out that the DIR DATA hit rate is H > dependant on ACP_DIRCACHE parameter. I have searched the current value > for this parameter.  > % >                 VAX A      B      C : > ACP_DIRCACHE    65535*   65535* 16384   (*=maximum size) > H > The fact that the current value has grown to the maximum size on A andB > B is puzzling. And C is getting great performance from a smallerC > cache. The command sh mem/cach/full gives a VIOC Read Hit Rate ofaB > 94-96% range for all vax with sizes of 11394, 61053 and 14223. AH > defrag runs on all VAXes every day. Last item, the direct IO count forG > the same compilation job on the VAXes is 2500 on VAX A and B, 1000 onc > VAX C. > F > I think the file system cache is wrong. How can I determine if it is9 > working properly ? What other investigations can I do ?l >  >  Suggestions are welcome.W >  Thanks to VMS gurus > 
 >  SPaquin   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 01:52:12 -0800i* From: polato@igi.pd.cnr.it (Sandro Polato) Subject: Freeware for VAX < Message-ID: <2af2b3d8.0112050152.b065912@posting.google.com>  5 Have a look at : http://www.itre.com/mf/download.htmli  
 Sandro Polato    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 07:37:42 -0600S- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)S0 Subject: Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld3 Message-ID: <hbIjxGuV9xXf@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  X In article <lL4P7.114$uQ4.5368@news.get2net.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb." <Dweeb@nospam.com> writes:   > Ignorance is bliss !  1    No.  Ignorance is C, BLISS requires knowledge.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:13:38 +0100% From: "Dr. Dweeb." <Dweeb@nospam.com>t0 Subject: Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld/ Message-ID: <qQqP7.81$r06.7963@news.get2net.dk>e   Touche !D For a moment I forgot which newsgroup I was in !!  You are of course correct.* Capellas has never heard of BLISS either !   Dweeb.: "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:hbIjxGuV9xXf@eisner.encompasserve.org...e? > In article <lL4P7.114$uQ4.5368@news.get2net.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb."e <Dweeb@nospam.com> writes: >V > > Ignorance is bliss ! >e3 >    No.  Ignorance is C, BLISS requires knowledge.o   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 01 13:28:02 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma0 Subject: Re: FWIW - Capellas at Oracle OpenWorld+ Message-ID: <9uleil$sln$1@bob.news.rcn.net>r  3 In article <hbIjxGuV9xXf@eisner.encompasserve.org>,a1    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:t? >In article <lL4P7.114$uQ4.5368@news.get2net.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb." h <Dweeb@nospam.com> writes: >  >> Ignorance is bliss !l > 2 >   No.  Ignorance is C, BLISS requires knowledge.  * <choke>  And a tendency towards masochism.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.P   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:14:37 +0100 (MET)-9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>0 Subject: RE: HELP TYPE/HEADER.; Message-ID: <01KBI9KEHFLW9125K1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>m  G > >When was /HEADER introduced?  (If before /PAGE=SAVE, what does HELP t2 > >TYPE/HEADER say on such an old version of VMS?) > I > It would appear that /HEADER and /PAGE=SAVE came about together in V6.0h  F In which case the fact that /NOHEADER/NOPAGE suppresses the output of G the file name is undocumented.  Can anyone comment on whether this was hC intentional and whether one can rely on this behaviour to continue?    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 16:09:09 GMT(& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)1 Subject: Re: Inquirer article on Compaq and Alpha % Message-ID: <9ulgr5$716@web.nmti.com>i  5 In article <Co5P7.22$II1.27574@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,c% Jeff Killeen <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:iM > Those who think Compaq is mindlessly in bed with Microsoft should take notecM > of Capellas's keynote at Oracle OpenWorld.  Based on my experience over the-I > last 2 years with CETS planning it appears to that Compaq has adopted ae1 > triangulation policy with Microsoft and Oracle.g  C How precisely does a Compaq beholden to Microsoft differ in any way.F mere customers can see from a Compaq beholden to Microsoft and Oracle?   -- c+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.-E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."eL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:47:26 GMTa3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)s5 Subject: Re: Installing Icon permanently to CDE menu?t, Message-ID: <9ukmuu$s05@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  0 In article <9u5dog$od0$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>,4 Christoph Gartmann <gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de> wrote:H >>  Doing this should change the file [.DT.SESSIONS]DTWMFP.SESSION underO >>your login directory.  Is this directory or file not writable and/or not havewN >>delete prot?  I seem to remember a patch to Motif (earlier version 1.2-3 andH >>1.2-4 or so) that fixed a session update problem because of directory 
 >>protection.  >sP >The file and the directories are owned by me and the protections are all right.O >Nevertheless the contents of the file doesn't change although the modification>N >date gets modified. But it contains only four lines with a single digit each.  H   I bet those four lines are 0, 0, 0, 1?  In my file the third number isI the number of items I've added to the menu followed by that many lines ofeL info which contain a path pointing to the action file each ending in .fp in K the [.DT.TYPES.FP_DYNAMIC] directory and some other info like what subpanel\ they belong.  F   Do you have a [.DT.TYPES.FP_DYNAMIC] subdirectory?  Is it writeable?   -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Dec 2001 13:25:40 +0100, From: Nazim MANSER <Nazim.Manser@socgen.com>, Subject: Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracudaT Message-ID: <011DC3C0E1244010*/c=FR/admd=ATLAS/prmd=SG/o=INFI/s=MANSER/g=NAZIM/@MHS>  % >Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:29:12 +0000t5 >From: John Laird <john@LAIRD-TOWERS.FREESERVE.CO.UK>o1 >Subject: Re: Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracudaa  G >As you mentioned RZ29 specifically, I'd guess this drive will actuallysI >work - I got a non-DEC version which wouldn't play ball easily on Alphas I >as its TCQ implementation was badly broken.  (Fixed by patching DKDRIVERi  >with the help of gurus here...)  = Can you give me hints how to patch DKDRIVER (to fix the TCQ) p/ or even the source code of the patched dkdriverkA because i have had similar problems with quantum fireball devices    thanks in advance    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:46:03 +0000g4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>0 Subject: Re: Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracuda8 Message-ID: <g1ns0uso5j0ph8kl0gumsd6dgc78qthjl7@4ax.com>  E On 05 Dec 2001 13:25:40 +0100, Nazim MANSER <Nazim.Manser@socgen.com>  wrote:  & >>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:29:12 +00006 >>From: John Laird <john@LAIRD-TOWERS.FREESERVE.CO.UK>2 >>Subject: Re: Jumpers for rz29-labelled barracuda >bH >>As you mentioned RZ29 specifically, I'd guess this drive will actuallyJ >>work - I got a non-DEC version which wouldn't play ball easily on AlphasJ >>as its TCQ implementation was badly broken.  (Fixed by patching DKDRIVER! >>with the help of gurus here...). >i> >Can you give me hints how to patch DKDRIVER (to fix the TCQ) 0 >or even the source code of the patched dkdriverB >because i have had similar problems with quantum fireball devices  H The help came from Glenn Everhart - I think I used Google to find a postF of his which described how to find and patch the driver data table forG "generic" devices.  Somewhere on my Alpha is the exact text, and I will > look for it shortly if you can't locate the newsgroup article.  C I have to say that Glenn's example described how to dump the driver E executable nicely, but then went screwy when showing how to patch it, E but I did figure it out in the end :-)  If you are running Alpha 6.2, H then I can also simply DIFF the files and tell you exactly which bit wasD twiddled (assuming the same executable).  Rumour has it that you canH also use SYS$ETC:SCSI_MODE to update the code pages on the disk, but not5 all disks accept this (even if they claim they will).o   (Posted and mailed.)     	Johni -- t
 John Laird Yezerski Roper Ltd   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 08:15:08 GMT ) From: 1000monkeys@unix.com (1000 Monkeys)- Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMS 9 Message-ID: <3c0dd52e.12948030@news.jamison1.pa.home.com>   F It has been often said, from a probability standpoint, that if you putE 1,000 monkeys in front of 1,000 typewriters, they would eventually besF able to type out War & Peace, purely happenstancially.  Evidently thisC experiment was carried out, but instead of achieving War & Peace as 4 was hoped, they typed out the UNIX operating system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 20:08:13 +0010o' From: <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au>  Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSc5 Message-ID: <01KBIS95RI8I0015NN@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>m  G >It has been often said, from a probability standpoint, that if you putDF >1,000 monkeys in front of 1,000 typewriters, they would eventually beG >able to type out War & Peace, purely happenstancially.  Evidently thisuD >experiment was carried out, but instead of achieving War & Peace as5 >was hoped, they typed out the UNIX operating system.a  H My memory of the quote related it to the works of Shakespeare.  1,000 x E 1,000 would be unlikely to chance even a simple 4-line nursery rhyme.    I do like your analogy.  e  C Ritchie's odds were better, he only worked on single letters B/C.   @ Don't Unix commands only comprise 2 letter "mnemonics" -- fewer  primates and less hardware.u   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:01:46 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSrA Message-ID: <eNpP7.65715$tf5.3413044@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message& news:5DEC200100280358@gerg.tamu.edu...   ...o  B > It *is* somewhat difficult to find out how big a file really is.D > The DIR will tell you how many *blocks* big it is, but that is notE > how big the file is since the last block is often not fully used. I2I > don't think that a WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("filename","FFB") C > is exactly an intuitively obvious way to get the info on how manycA > bytes are actually in use in that last block - at least, not tooC > someone who is not skilled in the use of VMS. (On the other hand,v@ > I have almost never actually needed to know this. I'm not sureB > why you'd need to know on a regular basis, especially from DCL.) >hA > It would be nice if a DIR/FULL, at least, gave that info in the  > size data it returns.o  K It could only do so for byte-stream files, though - unless you just want to I know how many bytes (vs. blocks) would be transferred in a block I/O copy L operation (assuming that the underlying software doesn't transfer the entireK last block regardless of whether it's full).  And byte-stream files weren'tm+ (and may well still not be) typical on VMS.    >iF > It is even harder to find out how much data is actually in the file,B > excluding file structure bits like the byte count and any recordD > padding bytes in variable length records. This can be important ifC > you are transferring the data, for example via a POP server - you E > may want to know exactly how many bytes of data will be transferredlH > *before* you start sending them. The only way to actually get an exactD > count for many of the record formats is to read the file record by, > record and count how many bytes there are.  H A problem which Unix neatly avoids by supporting nothing but byte-stream@ files.  Which makes it *absolutely* impossible to perform even aK 'record-by-record' size evaluation, unless you happen to know exactly which I bytes the application that created the file considers 'data' and which ito considers 'meta-data'.  J Unix can tell you only the size to the end-of-file mark - which VMS can asL well, albeit as you point out a bit awkwardly.  Unix can't tell you anythingK more because it doesn't understand anything more; VMS could, but only if itaK kept accurate record counts (for variable-format records) and/or byte-leveleD use information (for, e.g., indexed files), which would dramaticallyI increase execution overhead (especially in write-sharing situations) - or H require maintaining a transaction log (which would not be efficient with- ODS-2, but could be with a different design).s   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 14:17:04 GMTt1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)s Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSo* Message-ID: <9ula90$8c$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  + In article <3C0D1303.714055AE@caltech.edu>,'*  David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: |> John Laird wrote:# |> >  He was not impressed in 1990:p |> > rI |> > "It was a horrible operating system..."  "It was hard to use."  "Youf6 |> > couldn't easily figure out how large a file was." |> l9 |> Old Linus just dropped about 5 pegs in my estimation. o  D In my estimation, he doesn't have five pegs to drop as he is already at the bottom.  mJ |>                                                       I can forgive the |> firstG |> two statements since they are completely subjective but the third isa |> simply ridiculous.mF |> It usually takes even the dimmest Unix user only a minute or two to |> realize that DIR K |> is used instead of ls on VMS, and then it's a complete no brainer to get  |> toiJ |> HELP DIR to see what the command line options are for that command.  In |> fact, on RH 6.2J |> (and for all I know all other Linuxes) there's actually a "dir" command |> which acts just
 |> like "ls".u |> b  H Yes, but maybe he was refering to the unit of measurement.  Unix reportsK bytes giving th euser a size in a form he can deal with easily. VMS reportsiJ the size in blocks, the size of which a non-VMS person is very unlikely to know.n   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 14:35:09 GMTt1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)m Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSB+ Message-ID: <9ulbat$1er$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   3 In article <ANJ9GQRIQfLd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, .  young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:X |> In article <3C0D1303.714055AE@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: |> hF |> 	Having fought almost all the Unix wars there was/is to fight, I'veG |> 	seen this battle before too.  Not knowing exactly what Linus meant,hC |> 	he might just be referring to dir/size and dir/size=all... Unixi  |> 	doesn't have that ambiguity. |> s  |> 	Here is kilobytes and bytes: |> a |> 	$ ls -ls |> tC |> 1072 -rw-r--r--   1 root     system   1094925 Aug 21 15:56 a.zip  |> k& |> 	1072 kilobytes and 10494925 bytes.  C And this is exactly why I keep responding to these stupid articles.iC The 1072 is not the number of kilobytes, it is the number of blockse1 used by the file, just like the VMS report below.    Example:   ls -ls one two three?    4 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120             2 Dec  5 09:22 ones  1 This file contains 2 bytes and occupies 4 blocks.e  ?    4 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120            51 Dec  5 09:23 twoX    8 this file contains 51 bytes and still occupies 4 blocks.  A    4 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120          2040 Dec  5 09:24 threer  4 This file contains 2040 bytes and occupies 4 blocks.  @    4 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120          4096 Dec  5 09:29 four  B This file contains exactly 4K bytes of data and occupies 4 blocks,  @    8 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120          4097 Dec  5 09:30 five  A And lastly, this one contains 4K + 1 bytes and occupies 8 blocks.   9 R blocks being the smallest allocation unit ont his disk.T   |>  3 |> 	In VMS, how many blocks are you *really* using?f  E Which is exactly what Unix reported, along with exactly what the realo size of the file was.T   |> a |> 	$ dire/date/size=allocated |> a@ |> L.L;44                     0/0        28-NOV-2001 15:11:05.47@ |> L.L;43                     2/17       28-SEP-2001 16:21:45.91@ |> L.L;42                     2/17       28-SEP-2001 16:18:53.42 |>  B |> 	Two or 17?  Well 17 actually... well then you better make sure4 |> 	you look at allocated blocks then!  How pitiful! |> cD |> 	You get second hand stories from frightened Unixphiles that haveC |> 	had to actually log on and use a VMS system and often they bestn9 |> 	they can come up with is some screwy snipe.  Figures.   G As opposed to Unixphobes who don't take the time to actually learn whatAF the commands they use do and then complain about non-existant problemsE or capabilities that are there that they just didn't take the time to  learn how to use.e   bill   -- TJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:47:14 -0600t+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMS 3 Message-ID: <9$CtOorWlvln@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  _ In article <9ulbat$1er$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:t5 > In article <ANJ9GQRIQfLd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 >  young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:Z > |> In article <3C0D1303.714055AE@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > |>  H > |> 	Having fought almost all the Unix wars there was/is to fight, I'veI > |> 	seen this battle before too.  Not knowing exactly what Linus meant,9E > |> 	he might just be referring to dir/size and dir/size=all... Unix " > |> 	doesn't have that ambiguity. > |> a" > |> 	Here is kilobytes and bytes: > |>   > |> 	$ ls -ls > |> kE > |> 1072 -rw-r--r--   1 root     system   1094925 Aug 21 15:56 a.zipc > |> r2 > |> 	1072 kilobytes and 10494925 [1094925] bytes. > E > And this is exactly why I keep responding to these stupid articles.bE > The 1072 is not the number of kilobytes, it is the number of blocks-3 > used by the file, just like the VMS report below.: >   ( 	Yeah... my fault.  It has been a while.   > D > This file contains exactly 4K bytes of data and occupies 4 blocks, > B >    8 -rw-r--r--   1 bill     120          4097 Dec  5 09:30 five > C > And lastly, this one contains 4K + 1 bytes and occupies 8 blocks.5 > ; > R blocks being the smallest allocation unit ont his disk.  >   : 	Right... So Linus "problem" is you can't easily determine? 	how many bytes a VMS file contains, as if that is a "problem."    > |>  5 > |> 	In VMS, how many blocks are you *really* using?- > G > Which is exactly what Unix reported, along with exactly what the reall > size of the file was.v >  > |> o  > |> 	$ dire/date/size=allocated > |> .B > |> L.L;44                     0/0        28-NOV-2001 15:11:05.47B > |> L.L;43                     2/17       28-SEP-2001 16:21:45.91B > |> L.L;42                     2/17       28-SEP-2001 16:18:53.42 > |> aD > |> 	Two or 17?  Well 17 actually... well then you better make sure6 > |> 	you look at allocated blocks then!  How pitiful! > |>  F > |> 	You get second hand stories from frightened Unixphiles that haveE > |> 	had to actually log on and use a VMS system and often they best ; > |> 	they can come up with is some screwy snipe.  Figures.  > I > As opposed to Unixphobes who don't take the time to actually learn whatCH > the commands they use do and then complain about non-existant problemsG > or capabilities that are there that they just didn't take the time tow > learn how to use.h >   B 	No... just responding to Linus' "problem."  My problems with UnixD 	are real, not imagined.  I certainly don't focus on petty file size6 	differnces.  Did I ever tell you about the 10-15 yearH 	veteran that had a typo in a variable and wiped out ALL the filesystemsA 	at a large customer site?  That happened two years after someonea= 	else made a similar mistake at an even LARGER customer site.a   				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 14:45:46 GMTe1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMS + Message-ID: <9ulbuq$1er$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>o  8 In article <6orq0ucmrto1egu79s019k2o479bmli0lb@4ax.com>,7  John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> writes:iJ |> On 4 Dec 2001 18:52:24 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)	 |> wrote:u |> e< |> >In article <7nfp0uchaovpi4los6ok8oa975muhkf7ts@4ax.com>,; |> > John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> writes:n |> >|> .K |> >|>  [My last head-banging experience was trying to empty the mail spoolSN |> >|> directory of thousands of bounced messages - it has apparently occurredO |> >|> to no-one to document the fact that rm is real picky about its input andnL |> >|> won't accept a piped-in list, if I remember rightly.  And here was meO |> >|> thinking this wonderful bag of tools would do anything *I asked it to*.]  |> >|> |> >G |> >And your now going to show me how you pipe a list of files into theu |> >VMS DELETE command, right??m |> eH |> You know, some of us do understand the difference in approach betweenH |> operating systems and command interpreters and don't demand parity ofD |> features.  My beef was that rm seemed to have been special-cased,  D Special cased how??  Which Unix commands that deal with files take aE list of files on the standard input??  (Trick question, I do actuallyb
 know of one.)l  I |> perhaps for "security", but that there seemed to be no way to overcome? |> this feature. e  B Ands the VMS Fortran compiler won't compile my APL programs and myC Triumph won't fly. And there doesn't seem to be any way to overcomeeB these features!!  How can someone expect a tool to do something it& was never designed nor claimed to do??  IH |>               I was trying to preserve about 300 files out of 35000 -F |> in the end I moved them to a parallel directory and made *that* theJ |> spool location.  Only time I ever felt confident inside sendmail.cf :-)  B I guess the first question is how did you come up with the list ofE files you were trying to feed into the rm command??  Abd wgat exactlydC were you trying to do.  This is a serious question.  It is probablyeB trivial to accomplish what you want to do, the method just dependsB on exactly what you had and what you wanted to do.  And I would beH glad to tell you how to do it using the right tools in the right manner.   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   1   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:47:08 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Linus' view on VMSV- Message-ID: <0033000043769231000002L012*@MHS>l  B =0AHalf of all unix commands can be created by a cat stepping on a	 keyboard.   = And there is no truth to the rumor that whoever stole all thel3 vowels from UNIX hid them in the Hawaiian language.a   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETu* Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:13 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: RE: Linus' view on VMSt    H >It has been often said, from a probability standpoint, that if you put=  F >1,000 monkeys in front of 1,000 typewriters, they would eventually beH >able to type out War & Peace, purely happenstancially.  Evidently this=  D >experiment was carried out, but instead of achieving War & Peace as5 >was hoped, they typed out the UNIX operating system.s  H My memory of the quote related it to the works of Shakespeare.  1,000 x=  E 1,000 would be unlikely to chance even a simple 4-line nursery rhyme.u   I do like your analogy.h  A Ritchie's odds were better, he only worked on single letters B/C.s? Don't Unix commands only comprise 2 letter "mnemonics" -- feweru primates and less hardware.O   Regards, Paddy=d   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:12:02 +0100% From: "Dr. Dweeb." <Dweeb@nospam.com>  Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSi/ Message-ID: <XOqP7.79$r06.7765@news.get2net.dk>a  C For those of you that might be unaware, the monkey problem has beennG protocolised (is that a word) and the famous document can be found heren< http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2795.html and many other places.   Dweeby2 <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message/ news:01KBIS95RI8I0015NN@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au... I > >It has been often said, from a probability standpoint, that if you puteH > >1,000 monkeys in front of 1,000 typewriters, they would eventually beI > >able to type out War & Peace, purely happenstancially.  Evidently this-F > >experiment was carried out, but instead of achieving War & Peace as7 > >was hoped, they typed out the UNIX operating system.- > I > My memory of the quote related it to the works of Shakespeare.  1,000 x G > 1,000 would be unlikely to chance even a simple 4-line nursery rhyme.0 >t > I do like your analogy.t >lC > Ritchie's odds were better, he only worked on single letters B/C.tA > Don't Unix commands only comprise 2 letter "mnemonics" -- fewer  > primates and less hardware.p >o > Regards, Paddy >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:30:02 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSn/ Message-ID: <1011205110619.39582B@Ives.egh.com>i  " On 5 Dec 2001, Carl Perkins wrote:  - > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes...  > }John Laird wrote:# > }>  He was not impressed in 1990:l > }> dI > }> "It was a horrible operating system..."  "It was hard to use."  "You 6 > }> couldn't easily figure out how large a file was." > } K > }Old Linus just dropped about 5 pegs in my estimation.  I can forgive theb > }firstG > }two statements since they are completely subjective but the third ise > }simply ridiculous.@F > }It usually takes even the dimmest Unix user only a minute or two to > }realize that DIR K > }is used instead of ls on VMS, and then it's a complete no brainer to get  > }to J > }HELP DIR to see what the command line options are for that command.  In > }fact, on RH 6.2J > }(and for all I know all other Linuxes) there's actually a "dir" command > }which acts just
 > }like "ls".y > } J > }Maybe he meant figure out how large a file was inside a DCL procedure?  > }In that case K > }the learning curve is very slightly steeper since you had to know enougho
 > }to use the  > }proper lexical function.w > } G > }Or if he meant from within C then he may have had a case - the VAX CL > }compiler of that erao5 > }was pretty crappy.  Not an OS issue per se though.s > } I > }All that said, there was not then, and is not now, any document in thev > }land of UnixbI > }remotely as complete and useful as the VMS User's and System Manager's  > }manuals.  I'm giving J > }Linux the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he never had access to > }either one. > }  > }Regards,o > }  > }David Mathog  > }mathog@caltech.edue > # > You should know better than that.n > B > It *is* somewhat difficult to find out how big a file really is.D > The DIR will tell you how many *blocks* big it is, but that is notE > how big the file is since the last block is often not fully used. I I > don't think that a WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("filename","FFB")lC > is exactly an intuitively obvious way to get the info on how manyeA > bytes are actually in use in that last block - at least, not tocC > someone who is not skilled in the use of VMS. (On the other hand,c@ > I have almost never actually needed to know this. I'm not sureB > why you'd need to know on a regular basis, especially from DCL.)   Define "size".  :-)i  H Do you mean, the size in bytes when converted to viewable (or printable)D text format?  Of course, this is only meaningful for text files.  DoD you include the <CR>'s after each line that are necessary to displayD the file correctly on a printer or terminal, or only the <LF>'s thatC Unix stores on disk?  (In other words, the Unix size is wrong, too; B you have to scan the file to find how many lines there are and add: one byte for each line to account for the missing <CR>'s.)  ? Of course, Unix doesn't distinguish binary from text files, buth6 you only want to do the above counting for text files.  H BTW, what about text files that are not in ASCII?  (Unicode or somethingB fancy like pdf or postscript or M$'s notion of a text file, Word)?  A > It would be nice if a DIR/FULL, at least, gave that info in thel > size data it returns.a  C (eofblock-1)*512+ffb, but this would only by slightly more accurate. than blocks*512.  F > It is even harder to find out how much data is actually in the file,B > excluding file structure bits like the byte count and any recordD > padding bytes in variable length records. This can be important ifC > you are transferring the data, for example via a POP server - youwE > may want to know exactly how many bytes of data will be transferred H > *before* you start sending them. The only way to actually get an exactD > count for many of the record formats is to read the file record by, > record and count how many bytes there are.  A This is also true on Unix, if the network protocol wants <CR><LF>l@ delimited records, which many do.  (I don't remember what POP or SMTP uses.)   J > (Although I would point out that knowing how many blocks a file occupiesJ > is a very good upper limit - it's not like the transfered data will everG > be bigger than that, and using a number that causes a few dozen extra N > bytes to be allocated for buffers or disk space doesn't seem very important.I > You can always truncate the result if you need to, unless your program,rH > OS, or file system you are sending the data to doesn't let you do such? > a trivial thing, in which case that is hardly a VMS problem.)   B Only an upper limit if the data isn't compressed.  Suppose you areF sending an indexed file with data compression.  (There are such thingsF as indexed files where the data is pure text, so indexed files are not necessarily binary.)  
 > --- Carl   --   John Santosn Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 10:38:17 -0600u- From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie)  Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMS$3 Message-ID: <ig80yztN$LXV@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  - > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes...e > }John Laird wrote:# > }>  He was not impressed in 1990:c > }> eI > }> "It was a horrible operating system..."  "It was hard to use."  "Youo6 > }> couldn't easily figure out how large a file was." > } K > }Old Linus just dropped about 5 pegs in my estimation.  I can forgive thes  6 >Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:   M > And for a non-VMS expert VMS is probably one of the most difficult OS's to 	 > uses  C 	Pardon if I have the quotes mixed around, no FUD intended.  Linus .G dropped a few pegs for me too.  As for the last quote, about VMs being   difficult...H 	Through college in the late 80's, I used MS-DOS and BSD unix.  I never N heard of VMS until I got my first programming job.  When they sat me in front P of a terminal, the first thing I noted was that DCL was very similar to MS-DOS. M  Similar enough that it made it easy for me to immediately get around and do  P what I needed to, and later  I learned that it was light years better then DOS. O  But being used to unix and DOS, I never once thought that VMS was hard to use. G Oh, and the HELP utility...  perhaps it's the blonde, but I NEVER felt uN comfortable using unix's MAN pages.  It just seemed totally inconsistent, and P some commands were in MAN and some weren't.  VMS HELP has always been alot more  consistent.    Sharon   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:27:54 GMT13 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>s Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSi/ Message-ID: <3C0E584B.EC5BB7DC@cableinet.co.uk>    John Macallister wrote:s >   yL > Nowadays most people would take the view that both VMS and UNIX are harder > to use than Windows.  i harder to crash, surely? :-) --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  0  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of :! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:29:51 +0000l4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSu8 Message-ID: <j1ls0uku4jnga4kh7kintq422qjn9dv10v@4ax.com>  G On 5 Dec 2001 14:45:46 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)f wrote:  9 >In article <6orq0ucmrto1egu79s019k2o479bmli0lb@4ax.com>,r8 > John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> writes: >c9 >|>My beef was that rm seemed to have been special-cased,a >aE >Special cased how??  Which Unix commands that deal with files take asF >list of files on the standard input??  (Trick question, I do actually >know of one.)  E I admit that not long after posting this, I actually applied my brain @ for once and realised (of course) that stdin is almost certainlyH meaningless for rm (confirms and the like I guess), and that the list ofH files to operate on can only be specified on the command line (and henceE argc/argv).  I also admit to not admitting this to see who would spoto the deliberate mistake :-)  I >|>               I was trying to preserve about 300 files out of 35000 ->G >|> in the end I moved them to a parallel directory and made *that* the9K >|> spool location.  Only time I ever felt confident inside sendmail.cf :-)) >iC >I guess the first question is how did you come up with the list ofmF >files you were trying to feed into the rm command??  Abd wgat exactlyD >were you trying to do.  This is a serious question.  It is probablyC >trivial to accomplish what you want to do, the method just dependsfC >on exactly what you had and what you wanted to do.  And I would be I >glad to tell you how to do it using the right tools in the right manner.-  B This was a mail spool directory which had (due to rapidly bouncingE messages) reached this enormous size.  In amongst the junk were a few.A real messages, which I wished to leave in place.  Simple greps orrG perhaps finds (I forget) could produce lists of files which I wished tobC keep.  However, I decided it was easiest to reassign the spool pathYC elsewhere and ended up mv'ing the desired files and then rm'ing theaF remainder.  I think I managed to create a script which employed for(?)D to work on a supplied list - this moved them and then I could rm theH rest.  But I had to do this in many stages (the files had auto-generatedA names) as the shell expansion limit meant that whatever pattern I"G supplied on the rm command line could easily overflow if it matched toonF many files.  (Q: how does rm * work ?!)  So effectively I went throughD and dealt with a*, b*, etc.  No doubt it might have been possible toB write one script which simply scanned each file in turn and either3 renamed or deleted it according to a grep status...L  C Bear in mind I am working at a level of knowledge whereby I tend to E forget how to create and run scripts every time I need to (@ seems so F easy by comparison) :-)  But I did try *really* hard to stop and startB the smtpxd process properly, working through all the run-levels inH /etc/init/mumble or wherever, which is really painful I think (why not aF file of a sensible name), and in the end found the three-finger salute: was just so much quicker and more reliable as a method :-(  B Linus thinks the six "basic" system calls (fork, exec, open, read,H write, close) make it so easy to build tools with.  True, you can have aG thousand tools in no time.  But it seems to me that that is simply whatbF results, a thousand tools (or scripts), rather than 100 hierarchies ofE 10 related tools.  My mind prefers a more obvious order :-)  Also, ofbC course, it is perhaps too easy to create inadvertently powerful andpD destructive tools when using an everything-is-the-same model.  LinusF admits he destroyed a file system by running an autodialer program andG accidentally typing in /dev/hda1 instead of /dev/ttya1 as its target...e     	Johns   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:19:11 -0500-* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSu) Message-ID: <3C0E651F.8090401@compaq.com>n   1000 Monkeys wrote:g  H > It has been often said, from a probability standpoint, that if you putG > 1,000 monkeys in front of 1,000 typewriters, they would eventually berH > able to type out War & Peace, purely happenstancially.  Evidently thisE > experiment was carried out, but instead of achieving War & Peace asu6 > was hoped, they typed out the UNIX operating system. >   G But War & Peace is easier to read and understand (although I recommend t  Anna Karenina as a better book).   -- r John Reaganu' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadern   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:35:27 +0100b1 From: Enrico Badella <enrico.badella@softstar.it>l Subject: Re: Linus' view on VMSh+ Message-ID: <3C0E68EF.5D019AAE@softstar.it>g   John Macallister wrote:  > J > >Picked up Linus Torvalds' book "Just for Fun" in the library yesterday.F > >I've not read it all yet, but "just for fun" I looked up VMS in the( > >index.  He was not impressed in 1990: > N > Anyone who could say, in 1990 or earlier, that VMS was hard to use must haveK > had a very limited experience of other operating systems. My own guess onaK > Linus' OS experience is that he's had eperience of many OS's, all of theme  J At that time, or maybe a bit earlier, I had similar view of VMS but mainlyP because I had a completely unprivilegde account while on Unix I had root access.G When I finally could become system I began to understand the REAL POWERlH of VMS. After that I was wishing to handle all company wide SMTP trafficF using VMS so that I could use the ACL mechanisms for all user creationN stuff that was handed out to dummies. Too bad all was setup using Unix at that time...n   e.  H ========================================================================H Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.itA Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.itiH InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            < Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italys  K   Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,u4   manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manualsJ ==========================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:42:26 GMT 3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)c- Subject: Re: Mozilla DECWserver crash problemt, Message-ID: <9ukmli$rso@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  0 In article <00A05C2C.9450F207@SendSpamHere.ORG>,> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:H >Just wanted to let everyone know that I can now run Mozilla on my AlphaH >without it crashing the DECWserver.  The Alpha has a ZLXp-E3 card whichI >is 24 bits.  There was an override, DECW$SERVER_DEFAULT_VISUAL_CLASS, inbH >the DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM to cause this card to use PseudoColorI >or 8 bits.  I've removed this and Mozilla now runs -- it's a slow, pain-i >fully slow, pig but it runs.X  K   Strange.  I have an Alpha with a ZLX-E2 (Turbochannel 24 bit card version I of the ZLXp-E cards) that has the default visual class set to PseudoColor:K (some applications won't work otherwise) and I've never had a problem with n Mozilla running or not.   G   I also have a 24 bit card on a VAXstation 4000/60 and I've never beenaE able to set its default visual class to PseudoColor, despite what the I documentation says.  I've brought this up in the VMS field test newsgroupsH through the 7.1, 7.2 and most recently the 7.3 series of field tests but< no one seems to be interested in getting it fixed.  Oh well.   -- Vance Haemmerlea vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 16:16:23 GMTe- From: forkosh@panix1.panix.com (John Forkosh)oQ Subject: Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - you are inviteda) Message-ID: <9ulh8n$3pl$1@news.panix.com>-  1 Sue Skonetski (susan.skonetski@compaq.com) wrote:+  M : Anyone interested in these Compaq technologies, including Compaq customers,e% : resellers and employees may attend.e  ( But from email reply to my registration:7 > 		Attendance is limited to:  Compaq customers, Compaq , > Authorized resellers, and Compaq employees   Which is it? John (forkosh@panix.com)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:41:01 +0300, From: "Alexey V.Volgin" <a_volgin@stinol.ru> Subject: nonblockig socket) Message-ID: <3C0DCFED.E1BCC383@stinol.ru>i   Hi all!   > How to make in Open VMS (Version 6.2 -1H3) nonblocking socket? May by using "setsockopt" call?    Bye, Irina Geld.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:57:56 +0300s4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> Subject: Re: nonblockig socket0 Message-ID: <3C0DE194.CE946A26@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>  $ Just use $QIO or get NETLIB library.   "Alexey V.Volgin" wrote: > 	 > Hi all!l > @ > How to make in Open VMS (Version 6.2 -1H3) nonblocking socket?! > May by using "setsockopt" call?d >  > Bye,
 > Irina Geld.    -- n Cheers,dF +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222aE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222uF +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 08:43:50 -0600l4 From: Arlen Williams <arlen.williams@remove.eds.com> Subject: Re: nonblockig socket. Message-ID: <3C0DDE46.67680068@remove.eds.com>   Alexey V.Volgin wrote: > 	 > Hi all!d > @ > How to make in Open VMS (Version 6.2 -1H3) nonblocking socket?! > May by using "setsockopt" call?o >  > Bye,
 > Irina Geld.f   #include <errno.h> #include <ioctl.h>   static int one = 1;t  + /* this will make the socket nonblocking */a1 status = ioctl( socket, FIONBIO, (char *) &one );o  
 /* example */i8 status = recv( socket, buffer, sizeof( buffer ), flag );$ if ( status == -1 ) /* bad status */   { @     if ( errno == EWOULDBLOCK ) /* handle as nothing happened */   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:24:56 +0100'= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> # Subject: Re: OSU Webserver problemsw) Message-ID: <3C0DD9D7.B8AB462C@gtech.com>    Bob Ceculski wrote:e] > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:<3C03656A.7716F6EF@gtech.com>...e > > Bob Ceculski wrote: V > > > this is a question for David Jones at Ohio State University Dept. of EngineeringR > > > I believe he has posted before on this site and his email should be there or) > > > call Ohio State and ask for him ...w > >  > > ???? > >v< > > Since when has it become practice to make phone calls to1 > > authors of freeware when you have a problem ?g > H > if you need answers and you are dead in the water and not getting any,
 > then youH > go to the horses mouth as they say in Texas ... I called him once withH > a question and he politely answered ... it is his software, if he will > not F > help support and promote it, then why do it?  Email, however, should
 > suffice ...,: > if not then move to Apache, its free, and its supported!  G I would consider it extremely bad taste to phone a freewaere author andA asking questions."  @ Send an email. No reply - bad luck - you have the source and can fix it yourself.  : If you need support for OSU, then I am sure you can find a5 consultant that will support it (for $$$ ofcourse !).    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:10:28 +0100h= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> 7 Subject: Re: OT: Andrew Harrison : Alive & Still At SUNw) Message-ID: <3C0E2AD4.BB99A1E0@gtech.com>e   Jerry Leslie wrote:t+ #OT: Andrew Harrison : Alive & Still At SUNoE > I got a reply from Andrew from an email to Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM.    Good for him !  A > He's switched offices and doesn't have access to a NNTP server.    Good for us !!   :-)    Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:39:43 +0900& From: "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net> Subject: PC connection+ Message-ID: <9ul11k$pb6$1@news1.kornet.net>a  H I went through the OpenVMS FAQ (part 2/5), hoping that I would find someL articles that would help in configuring my PC and an Alpha ES-40 running VMSL 7.2 so it can see each other.  I want to be able to ftp the files from AlphaL to the PC running NT 4.0.   I know it's not just plug the RJ-45 cable to theL FastEthernet Hub.  Something needed to be done on these machines, just don't know what needed to. be doneiB If anyone have any ideas, I would appreciate some helps or advices Thank you in advance.e .t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:36:31 +0100$ From: "tez" <tezendam@vxcompany.com> Subject: Re: PC connection4 Message-ID: <3c0e2315$0$223$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>   Davidy  H Probably your PC will be (as will default be) able to FTP (-client) from CMD.   On VMS you need to:   K - install TCP/IP services for OpenVMS (or a-like, no experiance with those) J - configure Eth interface (menu: @sys$manager:ucx$config or :tcpip$config) - startup TCP/IP  - enable and/or start FTP-server  	 Dun all ?i   tez   1 "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net> wrote in message % news:9ul11k$pb6$1@news1.kornet.net...gJ > I went through the OpenVMS FAQ (part 2/5), hoping that I would find someJ > articles that would help in configuring my PC and an Alpha ES-40 running VMScH > 7.2 so it can see each other.  I want to be able to ftp the files from Alpha'J > to the PC running NT 4.0.   I know it's not just plug the RJ-45 cable to thesH > FastEthernet Hub.  Something needed to be done on these machines, just don'tu > know what needed toh	 > be donecD > If anyone have any ideas, I would appreciate some helps or advices > Thank you in advance.p > .y >a >  >d   ------------------------------   Date: 5 DEC 2001 16:12:32 GMT + From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> O Subject: Re: Q: Tool or script to remove nonprinting characters from a SET HOSTn1 Message-ID: <5DEC01.16123213@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>9  & "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote: >  e >  1 > Peter Weaver wrote: O > > OK, I see Dave Greenwood has TPU entry #1, but I don't think that satisfiesg9 > > Alan's requirement. Here is entry #2 of 10 billion :)a >  < > Wot - no TECO :-)r  J But of course!  Here's a TECO "solution" from 1995.  I've never tested it.I (I *think* the attribution is correct.)  I liked the "little known editor  called TECO" bit ;-)  { In article <950210005245_76702.1567_CHN69-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Richard B. Gilbert [VAX]" <76702.1567@compuserve.com> writes:u" > 	PSILVA1@eos.bentley.edu writes: >>> >>I am going to be doing a presentation next week on the topic; >>of the internet.  My internet access is through a VAX.  Is= >>had hoped to show the class some print-outs of my exploits,r >>so I did this: >>7 >>        $ set host 0/log=interesting_presentation.txte >>< >>I was hoping that this would log my session and provide me< >>with some output to show the class.  I am able to type the9 >>file, but when I edit it, there are quite a few special < >>characters in it.  magine my suprise!  Is there a VAX guru: >>out there who knows how I can translate this file into a< >>printable file?  Does anyone know of a way to get the file? >>close to readable?  (I don't mind working on it in an editor, 8 >>if I could just get it close).  Is there another, more% >>sophisticated way to log a session?t >> >fF > 	I recall reading of a trick with a little known editor called TECO.M > I believe I even tried it once.  Make a COPY of your file before you start;m$ > I am relying on memory alone here. >-+ > $ EDIT /TECO INTERESTING_PRESENTATION.TXT1 > E$$5 >MO > The $$ represents two escape characters (that is how they should echo).  TECOwL > loads the file and then saves it, minus the <cr><lf>.  I think it may kill6 > some or all of the other control characters as well. >wF > 	Be SURE to make a copy first.  One of the standing jokes about TECO3 > is "guess what it will do if you type your name!"o > A > 	It has also been said "Unix is multi-user TECO" (John Dvorak).s >f > --K > *************************************************************************eK > *                        Here, there be dragons!                        *.K > *                      76702.1567@CompuServe.Com                        *4K > *                                                                       * E > *	I'm job hunting.  Any offers or leads will be appreciated.      *mK > * I'm looking for something in central NJ or eastern PA.  Thanks!       *cK > *                                                                       *sK > *                                                Richard B. Gilbert     * K > *************************************************************************i >h   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:58:20 -0500 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>nO Subject: Re: Q: Tool or script to remove nonprinting characters from a SET HOSTe+ Message-ID: <3C0E603B.3522691C@hsc.vcu.edu>a  3 i thought it was EX$$, not E$$... that's what i use|   Dave Greenwood wrote:  > ( > "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote: > >p > >o > > Peter Weaver wrote: Q > > > OK, I see Dave Greenwood has TPU entry #1, but I don't think that satisfiesy; > > > Alan's requirement. Here is entry #2 of 10 billion :)i > >h > > Wot - no TECO :-)t > L > But of course!  Here's a TECO "solution" from 1995.  I've never tested it.K > (I *think* the attribution is correct.)  I liked the "little known editorl > called TECO" bit ;-) > } > In article <950210005245_76702.1567_CHN69-1@CompuServe.COM>, "Richard B. Gilbert [VAX]" <76702.1567@compuserve.com> writes:p) > >       PSILVA1@eos.bentley.edu writes:n > >>@ > >>I am going to be doing a presentation next week on the topic= > >>of the internet.  My internet access is through a VAX.  Ig? > >>had hoped to show the class some print-outs of my exploits,h > >>so I did this: > >>9 > >>        $ set host 0/log=interesting_presentation.txtY > >>> > >>I was hoping that this would log my session and provide me> > >>with some output to show the class.  I am able to type the; > >>file, but when I edit it, there are quite a few speciale> > >>characters in it.  magine my suprise!  Is there a VAX guru< > >>out there who knows how I can translate this file into a> > >>printable file?  Does anyone know of a way to get the fileA > >>close to readable?  (I don't mind working on it in an editor,e: > >>if I could just get it close).  Is there another, more' > >>sophisticated way to log a session?e > >> > > M > >       I recall reading of a trick with a little known editor called TECO. O > > I believe I even tried it once.  Make a COPY of your file before you start;v& > > I am relying on memory alone here. > >w- > > $ EDIT /TECO INTERESTING_PRESENTATION.TXT  > > E$$s > >aQ > > The $$ represents two escape characters (that is how they should echo).  TECOoN > > loads the file and then saves it, minus the <cr><lf>.  I think it may kill8 > > some or all of the other control characters as well. > >bM > >       Be SURE to make a copy first.  One of the standing jokes about TECOr5 > > is "guess what it will do if you type your name!"s > >aH > >       It has also been said "Unix is multi-user TECO" (John Dvorak). > >i > > --M > > *************************************************************************aM > > *                        Here, there be dragons!                        * M > > *                      76702.1567@CompuServe.Com                        *sM > > *                                                                       *eK > > *     I'm job hunting.  Any offers or leads will be appreciated.      * M > > * I'm looking for something in central NJ or eastern PA.  Thanks!       *nM > > *                                                                       *-M > > *                                                Richard B. Gilbert     *aM > > *************************************************************************6 > >0 >  > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVsJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:53:02 +0010c' From: <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au>c! Subject: Re: RECALL does not workg5 Message-ID: <01KBIRPDH4NM0015N0@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>o   Guy Peleg wrote:  E >The recall command implemented in DCL. It has nothing to do with thed >terminal driver.s- >DCL algorithem is similar to the following :P >a >Check modeP: >if mode eql interactive then add command to recall buffer >0E >I have no idea why we limit RECALL to interactive mode only. I will a >try tou( >look around for reasonable explanation,B >If I couldn't find one, expect RECALL to support batch mode soon.    > I have vague memories that someone like Hoff said that it was ? considered a security issue.  Possibly associated with someone u. including a password for network transactions.  A I have never seen this as a security problem.  I periodically do hH recall/output=xx on my accounts because I often use large commands that A I wish to recall.  The first thing I do when I login is to use $ pB recall/input=xx.  It would be nice to have that in my login.  The F generated file is also potentially a security problem, but then so is F every file I have.  But that is one of the wonderful things about VMS 	 security.   E Similar to the discussion on READ/INQUIRE.  All my users are at DCL, sF and I think the latter has problems at captured level.  I use READ or F INQUIRE in .COM files depending whether I want the user to be able to H RECALL.  READ is not in the RECALL buffer, INQUIRE is.  Most times I do G not want the RECALL buffer flooded with Y/N responses, but sometimes I n< want the ability to RECALL a filename, or a complex command.  F If the security issue of including passwords is a problem, then it is D no bigger a problem because that is in my interactive session saved 1 file.  In this area, security becomes my problem.   @ >Just FYI, the recall command was modified in V7.3-1 to support 
 >selective >search of the buffer. >,3 >$ RECALL DIR - returns the last directory command.  >m@ >In V7.3-1 $ RECALL/ALL DIR will return a list of all directory 
 >commands.  E I'm hesitating on 7.3 (7.3-1??); is this feature in 7.2-2 (or 2-3)?   C This latter (whichever) is about what I am intending to upgrade to.z   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:52:55 +0100 (MET)C9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ! Subject: Re: RECALL does not workJ; Message-ID: <01KBICR4S1S69125K1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   I > I have no idea why we limit RECALL to interactive mode only. I will trywD > to look around for reasonable explanation, If I couldn't find one,, > expect RECALL to support batch mode soon.   G I think the main point is not that it is restricted to interactive use MG (a use for RECALL in batch is not obvious), but rather to COMMAND-LINE   USE:  	 $ dir x.ya! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  $ recall dir	 $ dir x.yt! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundl $ create test.comt
 $  dir x.y
 $  recall dirc $  exitn  Exit 	 $ set vera $ @teste
 $  dir x.y! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundt
 $  recall dirh $  exitb   $ create test.como $  wso f$mode()e  Exitb $ @teste $  wso f$mode()l INTERACTIVEs  @ In other words, run from a command file, it seems to be a no-op.  J > Just FYI, the recall command was modified in V7.3-1 to support selective > search of the buffer.e > 4 > $ RECALL DIR - returns the last directory command.   This has been around longer:  	 $ dir x.xc! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found-( $ $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version") V7.2-1H1 $ recall dir	 $ dir x.xn  & $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version") V7.3 $ re dir& $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version") V7.3 $ recall dir	 $ dir/sinp! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundk  J > In V7.3-1 $ RECALL/ALL DIR will return a list of all directory commands.   Nice.i  I What annoys me in practice sometimes (though I see the reason for it) is u= that RECALL commands themselves are not in the recall buffer.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:09:52 +0200e& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com>! Subject: Re: RECALL does not work-* Message-ID: <3C0E0E90.317E9C72@compaq.com>  8 The $RECALL dir is just an example of previous behavior.  J The new feature will be in V7.3-1, we currentlly don't plan bakporting it.   Guyn   Phillip Helbig wrote:H  K > > I have no idea why we limit RECALL to interactive mode only. I will try F > > to look around for reasonable explanation, If I couldn't find one,- > > expect RECALL to support batch mode soon.t >lH > I think the main point is not that it is restricted to interactive useH > (a use for RECALL in batch is not obvious), but rather to COMMAND-LINE > USE: >  > $ dir x.y # > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found6 > $ recall dir > $ dir x.y # > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  > $ create test.comd > $  dir x.y > $  recall dir[	 > $  exitr >  Exit. > $ set ver.	 > $ @test. > $  dir x.y# > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  > $  recall dir(	 > $  exit2 >  > $ create test.com, > $  wso f$mode()  >  Exit 	 > $ @test6 > $  wso f$mode()r
 > INTERACTIVE  >.B > In other words, run from a command file, it seems to be a no-op. >-L > > Just FYI, the recall command was modified in V7.3-1 to support selective > > search of the buffer.: > >n6 > > $ RECALL DIR - returns the last directory command. >. > This has been around longer: >  > $ dir x.x # > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found6* > $ $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version")
 > V7.2-1H1 > $ recall dir > $ dir x.x  >d( > $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version") > V7.3
 > $ re dir( > $ write sys$output f$getsyi("version") > V7.3 > $ recall dir > $ dir/sin # > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundp >*L > > In V7.3-1 $ RECALL/ALL DIR will return a list of all directory commands. >  > Nice.a > J > What annoys me in practice sometimes (though I see the reason for it) is? > that RECALL commands themselves are not in the recall buffer.5   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:38:04 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>! Subject: Re: RECALL does not workg6 Message-ID: <1011205113713.39582C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Guy Peleg wrote:  F > The recall command implemented in DCL. It has nothing to do with the > terminal driver.. > DCL algorithem is similar to the following : >  > Check mode; > if mode eql interactive then add command to recall bufferb > L > I have no idea why we limit RECALL to interactive mode only. I will try to) > look around for reasonable explanation,hC > If I couldn't find one, expect RECALL to support batch mode soon.  > J > Just FYI, the recall command was modified in V7.3-1 to support selective > search of the buffer.m > 4 > $ RECALL DIR - returns the last directory command. > J > In V7.3-1 $ RECALL/ALL DIR will return a list of all directory commands.   Huzzah!!   > Guy Peleg, > OpenVMS Engineering,   -- r John Santosu Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:00:08 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: SPL July 19933 Message-ID: <P3nj99rJpRB8@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  ^ In article <3C0D78C4.D8AB1F60@mailbag.com>, William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com> writes:H > As a continuation of my search for a VAX lisp, I was reading on GoogleI > that the last version of the SPL CD's that contained Dec's VAX Lisp wasvF > the July 1993 set. If anyone still has such an ancient set and could> > verify that, I would be very happy to buy the disk from you.  I    VAX LISP/VMS 3.1 on September 1992 condist, but not January 1994 (I'veA    nothing in between).d   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 16:13:13 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)f Subject: Re: SPL July 1993+ Message-ID: <9ulh2p$48g$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>5  + In article <3C0D78C4.D8AB1F60@mailbag.com>,o3  William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com> writes: I |> As a continuation of my search for a VAX lisp, I was reading on Google5J |> that the last version of the SPL CD's that contained Dec's VAX Lisp wasG |> the July 1993 set. If anyone still has such an ancient set and could ? |> verify that, I would be very happy to buy the disk from you.  |> n  F I can at least confirm that it is not on the January 1994 set which is# the oldest set I have here.  Sorry.    bill   -- wJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:55:58 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 7 Subject: Re: the Compaq pseudo-technical spin continueso1 Message-ID: <ZCqP7.157$BK1.3227@news.cpqcorp.net>i   Joe Keane wrote in message ...3 >In article <wHSN7.2188$RL6.63696@news.cpqcorp.net>g6 >Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:F >>We are now moving to an architecture with a WIDESPREAD ACCEPTANCE inF >>the industry as being the next generation 64-bit platform.  In fact,B >>everyone but Sun has embraced Itanium as the future for 64 bits. >l >Speak for yourself, butthead. >y? >I am not Sun.  I don't embrace Itanium.  I recently said that,h- >basically, Hammer is the future for 64 bits.l >'    I No problem Beavis.  Only time will tell what 64 bit architectures surviveh8 the next 5-10 years, and which ones dominate the market.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:07:50 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ) Subject: Re: tubes (was: RE: DEC is DEAD)-; Message-ID: <01KBIDHGFD3W9125K1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r  G > Actually these days there are a lot of tube amp simulators, DSP basedtD > digital devices that sound like tube amps. Not a valve to be seen.   Kind of like Charon-VAX?  :-)   H I believe one of the first was Tom Scholz's Rockman.  "Get rid of those A towers of 19-inch racks and get the same sound from a small box".a  G Somehow, I think the groupies are more impressed by the stacks of Real  I Tube Amplifiers.  It wouldn't surprise me of some heavy-metal gods these 9B days just have them for show, with the sound actually coming from  somewhere else.t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:30:00 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>A Subject: Veritas on VMS?8 Message-ID: <9uli5b$h1u$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  7 Anyone using Veritas for their backup solution for VMS?c  I We're kinda being pushed that way, but have discovered some problems withoH system disk backups.  Seems like some of the directories are not gettingK backed up on a standalone test box.  This would imply similar problems witha' a cluster, which we haven't tested yet.e  E BTW, none of the VMSers here are thrilled about NOT using VMS backup.u   --
 Dave Gudewiczr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:21:39 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r Subject: Re: Veritas on VMS?, Message-ID: <3C0E579D.1A75CDFD@videotron.ca>   Dave Gudewicz wrote:G > BTW, none of the VMSers here are thrilled about NOT using VMS backup.e  J How about using BACKUP to create a saveset on a spare disk drive, and thenJ using that Veritas software to backup a single large file (the backup save set) from that spare drive ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 12:16:57 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>E Subject: Re: Veritas on VMS?8 Message-ID: <9ulods$hu2$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>   Interesting idea.  But...   K That's sounds like doing a backup of a backup to me, a 2 rather than 1 step H process.  And let's not forget the other way.  Restore would require theL same journey.  Then there's the time element of creating a saveset on a diskL then taking that file and creating a .tar, which Veritas uses.  We are faced> with ever shrinking time windows for getting our backups done.  L And I've heard rumors that VMS engineering is working on ways to address the time crunch.    : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C0E579D.1A75CDFD@videotron.ca... > Dave Gudewicz wrote:I > > BTW, none of the VMSers here are thrilled about NOT using VMS backup.  > L > How about using BACKUP to create a saveset on a spare disk drive, and thenL > using that Veritas software to backup a single large file (the backup save > set) from that spare drive ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:25:32 +0100 = From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@dummy.com>* Subject: Re: Veritas on VMS?) Message-ID: <3C0E669C.DF79CABB@dummy.com>    Hi. ; Maybe not related, but is't quite common to run Rdb backups = with RMU/BACKUP first to disk, then backup the RBF files with-7 VMS BACKUP to tape using the regular backup routine(s). ' Also a "backup of a backup" in a way...u  = And using TAR files in regular VMS backups? I'd take a secondm thought on that...   Jan-Erik Sderholm   Dave Gudewicz wrote: >  > Interesting idea.  But...t > M > That's sounds like doing a backup of a backup to me, a 2 rather than 1 steptJ > process.  And let's not forget the other way.  Restore would require theN > same journey.  Then there's the time element of creating a saveset on a diskN > then taking that file and creating a .tar, which Veritas uses.  We are faced@ > with ever shrinking time windows for getting our backups done. >*   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:38:58 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>0 Subject: Re: Veritas on VMS?3 Message-ID: <ARtP7.70766$Z2.1028618@nnrp1.uunet.ca>p  < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message2 news:9ulods$hu2$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com... >...H > That's sounds like doing a backup of a backup to me, a 2 rather than 1 stepJ > process.  And let's not forget the other way.  Restore would require theI > same journey.  Then there's the time element of creating a saveset on a  disk >...  L If you are not using VMS Backup to tape, the two step backup is the only way' you will be able to backup and restore;    - Contiguous files - Alias directoriest - A bootable System Drivec  L Note that even with the two step the system drive *may not* be 100% perfect,I but Veritas *will not* restore a bootable system drive. The documentationfK says that Alias Directories can not be restored, I have never tested to seen? if Alias Files can be restored but I suspect that they can not.r  J The best I have been able to get is to do two backups daily. One using VMSI backup to tape which I will use to recover an entire disk if needed. TheyvJ other backup is with Veritas so simple file restores can be handled by theK help desk. Two of our systems do not have tape drives so we do a VMS backupT1 to a save set on disk that Veritas then picks up.    --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:52:35 +0100 1 From: Franz-Josef Fornefeld <jo.fornefeld@gmx.de>n Subject: Re: VMS Effort ' Message-ID: <9ukqp3.e8.2@jo.dyndns.org>o   JF Mezei wrote:   M > do you agree that Compaq has recently sent a lot of signals which are being D > interpreted by customers in a very very negative way towards VMS ?  C Sigh. That's not a Compaq problem. DEC begun with this in mid 80's.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:35:33 GMTm& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>S Subject: Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett Pac 6 Message-ID: <VgqP7.519$Xx2.89415@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee< news:B%cP7.245757$dk.16561028@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > A > "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message - > news:ombP7.125$BK1.2931@news.cpqcorp.net...  >  > ...* >*H > >   There are specific individuals that are (often repeatedly) posting veryL > >   specific and strongly-held opinions to this and to other newsgroup andK > >   to various websites, and I foresee little or nothing that anyone herey at- > >   Compaq can do to change these opinions., > L > Then your perception is remarkably limited.  Or perhaps you meant that youK > foresee little or nothing that anyone at Compaq *will* do to change thoseu2 > opinions, which is an entirely different matter.  L I believe 99% of the IT professionals, who are actual OVMS customer for whomJ this more that a debating exercise, will make rational business decisions.L If Compaq delivers a viable port to the ISV's very early in 2003 Compaq willA find those rational business decisions break in Compaq's favor...a  D I agree with Hoff that for most the best response will be a port.  IK disagree if he intended to suggest all would swayed by this response.  EvenaL after a successful port the sky will always be green on the planet some live on.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:24:24 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>cS Subject: Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett Pacd1 Message-ID: <C1rP7.159$BK1.3312@news.cpqcorp.net>w  E Rob Young wrote in message <3jGuzT19o0fE@eisner.encompasserve.org>...nD >In article <ka7P7.116$BK1.2880@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  >> >>? >> Jerry Leslie wrote in message <9ugotr$ons$3@joe.rice.edu>...e >> >> snip, >>G >>>One of the more recent entries on that thread paints a scary pictureN; >>>of the Southern MA & NH area (URL wrapped to two lines):b >>> I >>>   http://www.netslaves.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display&board= & >>>   005&num=1007032630&start=105#114 >>>e >>>   Posted by slamitbobbya >>>e2 >>>   Re: Happy Anniversary: One Year Without Work >>>f >> >> >> snipu >>F >> His resume must be 4 pages of rubbish, he interviews bad, or he hasK >> unrealistic expectations (perhaps he wants too much money).  For all theeH >> downsizing that has occured, the MA/NH area still has jobs for people withE >> the right skills.  Heck, someone (who occasionally  writes in this 4 >> conference) started work *here* in VMS yesterday. >> >  >Fred, > : > We know you don't have time to track down every piece of@ > misinformation, but perhaps you wish to route the following to1 > someone so they can at least address this view:o > ( >http://www.theinquirer.net/04120101.htm >-    I I'm sure that Sue has seen this post, and if there is to be any response.B  A The piece is someones pure speculation by someone using an alias.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:02:16 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>S Subject: Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett Pacl6 Message-ID: <1011205105407.39582A-100000@Ives.egh.com>   On 4 Dec 2001, Rob Young wrote:o  h > In article <ombP7.125$BK1.2931@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:e > > In article <3jGuzT19o0fE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:- > >  > > > > > :	We know you don't have time to track down every piece ofD > > :	misinformation, but perhaps you wish to route the following to7 > > :	someone so they can at least address this view.... > > M > >   I (very bluntly) see no benefit in responding to the specified website.w > > M > >   There are specific individuals that are (often repeatedly) posting veryaM > >   specific and strongly-held opinions to this and to other newsgroup and  O > >   to various websites, and I foresee little or nothing that anyone here at :N > >   Compaq can do to change these opinions.  Several of the posters here in 8 > >   the newsgroup have made this emphatically clear.   > >  > D > 	I agree you can't change opinion (easily) but of course it can beC > 	done.   The idea is to engage the battle or risk losing the war.  > 2 > 	Mark Gorham's letter made it to that same site:  F Which site is "the same site"?  Someone posted about what sounded likeE a personal nut site about conspiracy theories.  Someone else followedlE up with a barely-connected reference to www.theinquirer.net.  I think C Fred and Hoff were talking about the original nut site as not beingm worth responding to.  H However, there's been so much messed-up quoting and unmentioned snippage/ in this thread that I'm not sure who said what..   Please clarify.     ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27110101.htmp > K > Our capital plan was approved by management, and we should have our firstEO > IPF-based systems arriving soon. It is uncertain whether we will use ProLiantlO > DL590/64 platforms or HP hardware like the NSK developers are using for their  > porting project. n > 8 > 	Which runs counter to what Nick the Knife says there: > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/04120101.htmh > Q > But it seems unlikely that Compaq would actually spend the money required to do P > a complete effort (see rule #1), especially on such areas as conversion tools,Q > and emulation of binaries. If Compaq were serious about VMS on IPF, rather than M > wait until the decision was announced to start the process, they would have2Q > previously negotiated and simultaneously announced agreements with key ISVs fordP > important customer functionality, like Rdb, spun off to Oracle by Digital (but% > there's that pesky rule #1 again). l >  > A > 	A well reasoned reply might actually be published and there isfA > 	a chance the 300000 or so readers might read it.  Well so what @ > 	you say?  Well how about countering the FUD that VMS is Dead?A > 	Dead you say?  Why yeah... just yesterday talking with someone)A > 	and it was pointed out a customer's long range plan is to movet  > 	off VMS as VMS is going away. > 	r? > 	I'd say you could use every free avenue and paid ones too tor? > 	help counteract such talk.  But hey, that's just my opinion.V > 	 > 				RobA >  >  >    -- a John Santosd Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:08:42 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> Y Subject: Re: VMS Effort (Was: Re: Microsoft Pyramid Collapses Enron and Hewlett Pac PacPa 4 Message-ID: <3C0E62AA.B73BF3F@swissonline.delete.ch>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:3 > c > In article <3jGuzT19o0fE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:i > B > :       We know you don't have time to track down every piece ofH > :       misinformation, but perhaps you wish to route the following to; > :       someone so they can at least address this view...w > K >   I (very bluntly) see no benefit in responding to the specified website.s > K >   There are specific individuals that are (often repeatedly) posting verydJ >   specific and strongly-held opinions to this and to other newsgroup andL >   to various websites, and I foresee little or nothing that anyone here atK >   Compaq can do to change these opinions.  Several of the posters here inl4 >   the newsgroup have made this emphatically clear. > H >   The only response that I can foresee would be acceptable is entirelyI >   indirect -- completing the port of OpenVMS to Itanium, and other such0E >   heretical tasks.  Said opinions of these folks might or might notSL >   eventually prove correct, but I -- one of the so-called little corporateI >   apologist toady weasel liar sleezeballs -- has some heretical code tooJ >   write for the OpenVMS port to Itanium, and has some database work thatH >   is a prerequisite for the OpenVMS source code changes needed for theI >   (expurgated) new Alpha platform.  And I have some enhancements to addd> >   to OpenVMS, changes that various customers have requested.    F The Inquirer is a site that has a high degree of credibility and henceG enjoys a high readership.  This was the site that first broke the storyaE on the transfer/sale of Alpha and, from your comments at the time, itsE did so before you were even aware of it.  I can understand Compaq not.E responding to some of the rabble sites but The Inquirer is quite wellrF regarded in the industry and ignoring it is something that Compaq will do at its own peril.  E As for your comments about the insults from posters to this and othertG newsgroups, try looking beyond the insults, which are so often born outaE of frustration.   Try seeing the situation from their point of view. t= Confidence in Compaq bounces along at or near zero.  Compaq'so credibility rates just as low.  F I am not sure if you truly meant waiting until the port to Itanium, orB the port to the IPF processor on which VMS will run.  If it is theG former then you are talking of only a "proof of concept"; if the latteroG then we will be waiting some years.  However long we wait, it will onlyeF see your customer base, current and potential, decrease even further. G Compaq must respond and must respond quickly or this failure to respondcB will add to the growing pile of evidence that Compaq is not at all/ interested in retaining or growing this market.r    G Since you seem to have taken over from Fred as the one to have his headeE above the parapet, be prepared to face some tough questions.   Here's F some to start with.  (Feel free to forward them to other people withinE Compaq if you believe that their response would be more appropriate.)h    G Would you please provide some much-needed confidence in Compaq and denyhA as many of the following statements as you feel honestly able to:   E 1. That Compaq's emphasis on PCs has lost so much money in the last 3mF years that this emphasis can only be regarded as commercially foolish.  @ 2.  That Compaq's reluctance to promote its high-end high-income@ offerings is to ignore the potential income stream that this may produce.  H 3.  That points 1 & 2 appear to be contrary to the best interests of theG company and its stockholders, and  since these are the mandatory dutiescF of office bearers in a company, it follows that the stockholders couldH demand their removal from office.  (Please note that I am not asking youG to confirm or deny that they are acting contrary to the interests, onlyTG that that is a conclusion that some people might draw from the previous 
 two points) .f  A 4.  That Compaq has never seriously tried to promote its high-enddG offerings outside of its existing customer base and therefore any claimmE to the effect that the returns would not be worth it can be view withd extreme scepticism.   E 5.  That the concept of niche markets was an artificial device solely2> for the ease of dividing the "territory" for Compaq marketing.  F 6.  That Compaq's marketing tactic of trying to force customers to buyH inappropriate systems runs counter to the tenet of modern marketing that7 the consumer should be able to make an informed choice.r  G 7.  That Compaq's quality and level of service are markedly inferior too that of Digital Equipment.  F 8.  That Compaq has wasted almost every asset - product, service etc -2 it obtained in the purchase of Digital Equipment.   D 9.  That Compaq has a record of broken promises in the Alpha and VMS1 arena, including, but certainly not restricted toeE (a) promises of an advertising campaign in late September 2000.  ("IteF will even up the balance a bit" stated Rich Marcello in discussions in July of that year).eH (b) promises of a 25-year life-span for Alpha being declared as recentlyG as early this year but terminating it at less than halfway just a month  or so later.  G 10.  That Compaq's technical and business justification of the Alpha isuH termination cannot be supported on the evidence that Compaq provided andG that the justification is easily refuted by other evidence (as shown inc comp.os.vms on many occasions).t  H 11.  That a more plausible explanation for Compaq's termination of AlphaG is that this action was to improve the financial state of Compaq in theoA short-term and was aligned to facilitate the proposed merger withhH Hewlett-Packard even though, at that time, the respective boards had not approved that merger.v  G 12.  That Compaq is not at all concerned about the already-evident losseG of high-end customers which has  resulted from the termination of Alphas2 and the current low level of confidence in Compaq.  G 13.  That there is no good reason to believe that the situation for VMSp< will improve if the merger with Hewlett-Packard takes place.  o  G I have worked on VMS since 1979 with the only exception being 12 monthsrG in the early 1980's.  I used to be a big fan of Digital.  There was theeG occasional glitch but in general they would try very hard keep to their E promises and they would deliver the goods.  They also had an attitudedD towards Quality that carried through everything they did.  When theyH said the Vax processor would be replaced with something better, it was aF convincing picture that they painted and I had confidence and trust inE their ability.  Unlike Itanium, the Alpha project was in-house and aspD such the reputation of the Digital depended on their ability to keep* their word, which they did most admirably.  E Digital lost its way in the nineties and my confidence in the companyeC plummeted.  Software and hardware products were disappearing off toaD other companies and there was little or no evidence that Digital was) interested in any aspect of its business.u  H In 1999 it was with mixed emotions that I read of the sale of Digital toH Compaq.  There was some sadness that the name, and all it had stood for,C would fade away.  At the same time there was hope, hope that CompaqtF would reinvigorate the high-end assets because, it was stated a numberC of times, Compaq was keen to extend its reach from the low-end into-@ mid-range systems and become a serious competitor to HP and Sun.  H All new buyers get a honeymoon period, a period when critical assessmentE is suspended while the new owners find their feet and establish their E own method of doing things.   There are issues of human resources andfB logistics to be resolved, a new culture to be absorbed, adopted orG transformed, new marketing strategies to be created and a million othergB small issues to be managed.  These all take time.  But there is an2 expectation that the new owner will keep his word.    G Well, time's up !  Compaq has failed, and has failed miserably.  CompaqiF shows no interest in VMS save to try to hold onto a few large accountsH in niche markets, niche markets that Compaq have declared are decreasing
 in number.  G Compaq has completely lost my confidence.  Or to be more precise, it isr; Compaq's management that has completely lost my confidence.   B There are many people in Compaq whose work I admire that are stillG trying to do their best, futile though that effort seems to be.   TheretH are also many people who work for Compaq who privately shake their headsD at the decisions that Compaq management have been making.  I can sayG this from personal experience because these people have said as much toe me.p  G If Compaq still wonders why people complain about their performance andoH sometimes insult the company management and its policies then I can onlyC say that this failure to understand is yet another part of the sameI problem.    C I can only hope that whatever happens with the proposed merger with0F Hewlett Packard the ultimate result is a change of the management teamA responsible for VMS.  I hope that the new team makes an effort tosG understand the features of VMS and the fact it can answer a market needtG like no other operating system; that the new team is honest and genuinevG in its efforts; that it listens to all its customers, not just a selectbH few; and finally, that it makes an honest attempt to expand the customer< base for VMS into all possible areas, not just a select few.     John McLeanR   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:56:41 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>.2 Subject: Re: VMS marketing (advertising) sighting.8 Message-ID: <9ulcmb$ga7$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  0 "jojimbo" <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote in message6 news:dc2d8031.0112041731.4593493@posting.google.com... > VMS fans,q >p <snip>B > Back to my first sentence, marketing includes creating the rightF > product, pricing it correctly, positioning it in the marketplace, as > well as whatB > I've heard many of you call marketing which is exactly promotionC > (advertising). Please try to understand the difference, what most D > of you are asking for is promotion, perhaps a valid complaint, but8 > please be aware that this is only a part of marketing. >n > Jimm  F I didn't think that marketing included **creating** the right product.2 Creating a market, yes.  Creating the product.  ??  5 Otherwise, thanks for the good news.  Its refreshing.b   Dave...i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:22:08 -0500t* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>= Subject: Re: Was the Alpha to Intel agreement ever approved ?r) Message-ID: <3C0E65D0.4090409@compaq.com>    John McLean wrote:  E > Does anyone know if the regulators ever got around to approving thee > transfer of Alpha to Intel ? > I > I'm curious to know what has happened to date on this issue and whether- > it could all be cancelled. > F > I am also curious to know how the Securities and Exchange CommissionE > (and others) might react if this transfer was to intended to have aeA > major influence on the merger of HP and Compaq.  Any opinions ?o >  > 
 > John McLeanr >   H Not speaking for Compaq nor I have seen the contract or anything, but I F wasn't aware that Compaq needed regulator approval for the Intel deal.  I They didn't need it when selling Rdb to Oracle, selling various products r to CA, etc.  Is this different?>   --   John Reagann' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:54:43 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>?= Subject: Re: Was the Alpha to Intel agreement ever approved ? 5 Message-ID: <3C0E6D73.7B02FCC6@swissonline.delete.ch>p   John Reagan wrote: >  > John McLean wrote: > G > > Does anyone know if the regulators ever got around to approving the,  > > transfer of Alpha to Intel ? > > K > > I'm curious to know what has happened to date on this issue and whetherr > > it could all be cancelled. > > H > > I am also curious to know how the Securities and Exchange CommissionG > > (and others) might react if this transfer was to intended to have a C > > major influence on the merger of HP and Compaq.  Any opinions ?f > >i > >r > > John McLeanp > >  > I > Not speaking for Compaq nor I have seen the contract or anything, but IwH > wasn't aware that Compaq needed regulator approval for the Intel deal. > J > They didn't need it when selling Rdb to Oracle, selling various products! > to CA, etc.  Is this different?n >  > --
 > John Reagan-) > Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader0  F I don't know for sure John, but I do recall some discussion just afterB announcement to the effect that approval should be easy because it7 looked like a follow-up to the Digital-Intel agreement.4  # From that I took it to be required.t  F Please, not another opinion as to whether it would or not be approved, just whether it has  :-)     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:02:33 +0100Y= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>o8 Subject: Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query.) Message-ID: <3C0E1AE8.6E726BE1@gtech.com>    James Gessling wrote:lJ > I do my (limited) java playing on an ods-5 volume.  You pretty much need > to anyway becauseiE > of the mixed case thing.  For some stupid reason the java inventorst > decided a class MyClass needs : > to be in a file MyClass.java.  What an extrodinary pain.  5 Strictly speaking, then Java only needs to think thatl5 MyClass are in MyClass.class (no problem with .java).n  = This can be relative cumbersome on ODS-2, but it is possible.    You can f.ex. do:e   $ javac "MyClass"l" to activate a simple main program.   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2001 08:18:01 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 8 Subject: Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query.3 Message-ID: <RQI5t9uxqwSr@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  i In article <3C0E1AE8.6E726BE1@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:n > James Gessling wrote:hK >> I do my (limited) java playing on an ods-5 volume.  You pretty much needi >> to anyway becauseF >> of the mixed case thing.  For some stupid reason the java inventors  >> decided a class MyClass needs; >> to be in a file MyClass.java.  What an extrodinary pain.  > 7 > Strictly speaking, then Java only needs to think that 7 > MyClass are in MyClass.class (no problem with .java).i > ? > This can be relative cumbersome on ODS-2, but it is possible.i >   E    The JRE wants MyClass to be in MyClass.java, and the Java compiler A    wants MyClass to be in MyClass.java.  On case insensitive fileeB    systems you can have MyClass in MYCLASS.JAVA and myclass.class,A    but you still have to have MyClass.java passed to the compileru    and MyClass to the JRE.  @    Quoting the arguments works in any version of VMS you can get
    a JDK for.   E    Not quoting shouldn't require ODS-2, just the latest C RTL and DCLI6    capabilities to pass the string to main() as given.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:40:52 +0100t= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>u8 Subject: Re: XML Test Problems & Java Performance Query.) Message-ID: <3C0E31F4.153B07B6@gtech.com>n   Bob Koehler wrote:G >    The JRE wants MyClass to be in MyClass.java, and the Java compilerhC >    wants MyClass to be in MyClass.java.  On case insensitive filelD >    systems you can have MyClass in MYCLASS.JAVA and myclass.class,C >    but you still have to have MyClass.java passed to the compiler  >    and MyClass to the JRE.   ????  E JRE wants MyClass to be in MyClass.class - JRE is runtime environmente notf2 compiler and it does not need MyClass.java at all.  < You can pass anything to javac (compiler), but java (runtime interpreter)% requires it to look as MyClass.class.a   Example:   $ javac foobar.java- $ javac FOOBAR.JAVA-
 $ java foobar H Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: foobar (wrong
 name: FooBar)j
 $ java FOOBARfH Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: foobar (wrong
 name: FooBar)6
 $ java FooBarsH Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: foobar (wrong
 name: FooBar)s $ java "FooBar"_ KUK KUKs   Tested with JDK 1.2.2.   Arne   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.676 ************************