1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 11 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 687       Contents:
 Re: 17-Nov... - Re: a few ?'s for the VAXperts re 6k machines $ Re: Alpha vs. Itanic:  facts vs. FUD Re: CNET OpenVMS Survey at 312A Re: Compaq Ads - a ray of hope (Re: Compaq now a takeover target)  Re: Compaq after merger-failure   Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target Re: Compilers and Alpha  Re: Compilers and Alpha  Re: Compilers and Alpha  Re: Crash Notification Re: Crash Notification Re: Crash Notification5 Re: Current timetable for HP/CPQ shareholder voting ?  Re: DEC is DEAD  DECUS Switzerland? Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing. Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work). Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work). Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work). Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)I Final Heads-Up on DFWCUG Meeting in Dallas on Tuesday evening 11 December  ftp problem  RE: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem : Re: How to tell if foreign command (SET COMMAND) is known?: Re: How to tell if foreign command (SET COMMAND) is known?" Re: HP Foundations - let them know Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?  Re: LAT and DecNet phase V RE: LAT and DecNet phase V Re: LAT and DecNet phase V Re: LAT and DecNet phase V Re: LAT and DecNet phase V: Re: Looking for .CLD files for some standard VMS  commands$ Re: manuals (was Linus' view on VMS)( Re: manuals (was RE: Linus' view on VMS) Re: Need help with MLU Re: Need help with MLUH Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - you are invited9 Re: Packard Foundation Tells Merger Urgers to "Paq it In" 9 Re: Packard Foundation Tells Merger Urgers to "Paq it In" $ Re: Proxy vote for merger assume Yes  Re: tubes (was: RE: DEC is DEAD) Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  RE: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples? 5 US Apache Linux sites hacked - better get on VMS now!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:22:57 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)  Subject: Re: 17-Nov...3 Message-ID: <0pcZpibbBJRn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <3BF72602.C6FF3397@mcmail.maricopa.edu>, Carl Nelson <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu> writes:  >  > Don Sykes wrote: > B >> Yes. I remember it well. It was Nov 17, 1858, when VMS machines	 > started G >> counting time in 100 nano second units in a 64 bit counter. Now lets $ >> calculate when REAL end of VMS... >> >> Bob Kaplow wrote: >> >@ >> > I guess today is as close as it gets to wishing VMS a happy > birthday.  >> >@ >> >         Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/ > D >   I still call Nov 17th "null day". With all zeroes, the numerical	 > address @ > to human-readable address converter will generate "17-Nov-1858H > 00:00:00.00". Some code has been added in various utilities to convertB > that to a more meaningful string, such as <no backup performed>. > G >   Before that I used to get hiccoughs on the 17th when I'd see that a  > fileH > was backed up on 17-Nov-1989 (for example). My immediate thought would > be, ? > "WHY wasn't this (critical) file backed up...... oh. Dammit!"  > A >   I haven't had quite so many scares since they added the other < > interpretation to some of the utilities. Good thing, that. > I >   BTW, the date was selected as the base date and time for astronomical C > observations as per the Smithsonian Institute. I believe that the 
 > internalH > format runs out somewhere in the 311th century. I figured it out once. > May J > 5th, I think. Early afternoon. I plan on taking the day off. Or at least >  > taking a LONG lunch.  B http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/year-2000/leap.html  A >   Of course the utilites will choke before then, on 31-Dec-9999 G > 23:59:59.99. I once submitted a /after job to a print queue with that J > date/time to demonstrate this to someone who had confused the Un*x death > H > date of 2026 with VMS. Forgot to delete it, and no one dared to delete > it > from the queue for a week.   I've gotta do this!   B         They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little?         temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- A         Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759   1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy 4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:58:09 -0500 + From: "Robert Schaefer" <rschaefe@gcfn.org> 6 Subject: Re: a few ?'s for the VAXperts re 6k machines7 Message-ID: <9v3mt7$r6b$1@ronco.freenet.columbus.oh.us>   ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message + news:Jm5R7.361$BK1.6929@news.cpqcorp.net... K > In article <9uu2qi$pil$1@ronco.freenet.columbus.oh.us>, "Robert Schaefer"  <rschaefe@gcfn.org> writes: 9 > :My machine has processors from different sources, with  > D >   I'd use the most current version of the firmware, but there haveI >   certainly been a few cases were new firmware requires a hardware ECO.   A Ok.  That's about what I figured, but I just wanted to make sure.    >  > :Also, will different . > :class processors work in the same computer? >  > C >   The VAX 6000 model 400 processor modules are roughly double the D >   performance of the model 300 processor modules -- 3.8 vs 7 VUPs.% >   I'd retire the model 300 modules.   I Well, currently I only have two model 300 processors.  I've got a line on I two model 400 processors, but IIRC the 6000 backplane will take up to 6-- J I'd hate to have those slots just sitting there oxidizing when there could# be a silicon space heater in there!   H On a side note, will a 63xx machine take the larger 64MB & 128MB XMI ramI cards?  I'd like to get this thing decked out as best I can, and it looks H like I can get 6 CPUs in and still have room for 256MB if I go with four9 64MB cards.  ISTR that 256 is the limit for this machine.    > 
 > :AnotherJ > :sort-of related question-- is it possible to make a bit-identical image of, I > :say, a TK70 tape; something like `dd' with unix?  I'd like to save the L > :eeprom image I end up overwriting just to keep the bits from fading away. > E >   There are dd ports around, and there are tapecopy tools and such.    Ok, I'll look some more.   > H > :One last question before I quit bugging you...  Will one hobbyist PAK boot a1 > :cluster, or will I need a PAK for each member?  > C >   You will will need to replicate every PAK in every license file F >   present on each system, when you have multiple licensing databases >   present within a cluster.   J So, get a decus PAK for every machine, and put *all* the PAKs on *all* the
 computers?   > G >   A list of questions would be easier to parse and to respond to than C >   is a stream-of-conciousness paragraph.  No offense is intended.   J None taken.  IDK if you've noticed, but somethimes my conciousness doesn't stream too well!   Thanks for your reply!   Bob    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:57:38 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - Subject: Re: Alpha vs. Itanic:  facts vs. FUD 3 Message-ID: <$Ao12IyhZOMC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <9v2s5f$hnu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: J > You've never seen any of the old IBM boxes with the 8" floppy cassettes,I > have you??  Even here in the early days secretaries religiously (no pun I > intended) ran FastBack with it's box of 70-80 floppies every day.  Like I > I said, given the technology of the day, floppies worked.  Even I still F > have boxes of 5.25" backup sets gathering dust in the attic. (Yes, IL > actually found two of them while looking for some old pictures last week.)  E   I could use a box of 5 1/2 for my Pro 350.  Especially ones without B   rings.  Is IBM 8 1/2 floppy "cassette" different from the single   floppy RX01 on my 11/780's?   G   I once refused to backup a UNIX system because it had 2 2GB disks and H   a 75MB TK50.  14 tapes, I forget how many hours.  Went out and bought J   the first 4mm DEC sold (the rebadged HP model) and felt it was the best 5   hardware purchase we'd made since our first 11/780.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:58:43 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: CNET OpenVMS Survey at 312 - Message-ID: <7m9R7.32055$Yy.339033@rwcrnsc53>   4 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message% news:3C14E5FA.20EA6A11@caltech.edu...  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >  > > Whether CPQ or HWP monitors   > > this survey I haven't a clue > = > That's ok - neither do they.  (Referring to management, not  > engineering.)  >   L Well, the Pearl Harbor Day merger misfire might serve as a wake-up call. One can at least hope...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:19:51 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>J Subject: Re: Compaq Ads - a ray of hope (Re: Compaq now a takeover target)- Message-ID: <XF9R7.27167$wL4.66942@rwcrnsc51>   1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message ) news:u19fulsurkpre2@corp.supernews.com...  > A > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message % > news:E8WQ7.335$7y.2026@rwcrnsc54... J > > IBM (a company for whom I have a lot of respect) does an excellent job > > marketing its products.  > J > If the latest Compaq ad (rotting lettuce on the loading dock) is the wayK > Compaq advertising is heading then Compaq finally gets it and is going to L > start marketing it knows how to solve business problems.  They are finally: > marketing like IBM.  Lets hope this is not a fluke ad... >   G It may not be... I saw a couple of decent CPQ ads in the business press K whilst in London last week. The focus was services and systems integration. L No mention of hardware or OS, or even Wintel (which some might call hardware and OS).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:42:13 -0600 , From: "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mindspring.com>( Subject: Re: Compaq after merger-failure2 Message-ID: <9v49qn$hf6$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>  % Terry C. Shannon wrote in message ...   J >Rich and Mark are not the problem. If you believe there is a problem withI >VMS marketing, by all means find out who bears direct responsibility for + >marketing and take up the issue with them.  >  >   J _IF_ you believe there's a problem?  _IF_ there's a problem?  Is there anyL doubt in anyone's mind here that there's a major problem with VMS marketing, whoever is to blame?  Sheesh!.   Rich Jordan    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:35:54 GMT G From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> ) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target 6 Message-ID: <u88R7.56440$xS6.91323@www.newsranger.com>  O On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:35:35 GMT, in article <HS2R7.29887$Yy.335494@rwcrnsc53>,  Terry C. Shannon wrote:  > J >Ummm, that would go over like the proverbial turd in a bunchbowl with the
 >Tru64 crowd.   I Just an observation, but you Americans really do have a rather unique way ( of expressing yourselves at times... :-)   Simon.   --  @ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered a E truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:09:42 GMT   From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target + Message-ID: <3C152488.D518BE52@prodigy.net>    Jeff Killeen wrote:  > 9 > "IsraelRT" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message 4 > news:71061u8e79i92jp85nt4ca8qnmkb48i6vi@4ax.com... > @ > > He has not been able to make it profitable for sometime now.G > > With the global economy now relentlessly nose diving, Compaq has no 0 > > chance at all of returning to profitability. > I > Surprisingly the $675 million that is suppose to result from the merger D > being called off may be the most profitable thing Compaq has done.  H Do they get it if the HP shareholders vote against the HP board's advice and turn the deal down?    > M > It is a _fact_ that Compaq has cut over a billion dollars a year in ongoing H > operations costs.  That is _before_ any Alpha related cost savings are > factored in. > I > Take the HP money, the supposed Intel money, the reduction in operating N > costs, and the predicted upturn in revenue in Q3 and Q4 - and bozo the clownA > would likely show at least a fair profit with Compaq next year.  > H > There will be those who will claim Compaq faces a deep revenue decline, > rather than any upturn - time will tell...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:13:26 GMT   From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target + Message-ID: <3C152567.F6B02E1D@prodigy.net>   A Scott might want Compaq's customers, but I doubt he wants Compaq.    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > N > Add would Scott be acting rationally or in the best interests of shareholder > value ???? >  > Dweeb.3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message * > news:u19e9mif71139@corp.supernews.com... > > ; > > "IsraelRT" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message 6 > > news:lud51u4fpgt7g0m4nl0e26rcii7c45olog@4ax.com... > > J > > > The takeover could even be by Dell if the anti-trust legislators can > > > be bought off .  > > M > > Highly unlikely - Dell's business model would break very very badly if it K > > tried to integrate Compaq into its operation.  Compaq and Dell had very J > > different business models as PC vendors.  Compaq's model in theory wasM > > friendly towards the likes of Tandem and Digital.  Dell's model would not $ > > allow for that type of overhead. > > : > > Compaq's model is technology and now service value add > > 7 > > Dell's model is price and order execution value add  > > K > > I do agree Compaq is a take over target but likely only for IBM or Sun.  > Sun L > > is unlikely because McNealy's ego would override the business advantage.G > > IBM will only make the play if they believe it would give the Linux 
 > strategy= > > a big boost be controlling the IA32/IA64 server market...  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:16:25 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target . Message-ID: <JC9R7.29748$ER5.319030@rwcrnsc52>  L "Simon Clubley" <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> wrote in8 message news:u88R7.56440$xS6.91323@www.newsranger.com.... > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:35:35 GMT, in article" <HS2R7.29887$Yy.335494@rwcrnsc53>, > Terry C. Shannon wrote:  > > L > >Ummm, that would go over like the proverbial turd in a bunchbowl with the > >Tru64 crowd.  > K > Just an observation, but you Americans really do have a rather unique way * > of expressing yourselves at times... :-) >   H True... must have been a Freudian Slip as I had just finished fighting a9 losing battle with a Presario box running Windows 98! ;-}    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:56:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>p) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targetp, Message-ID: <3C152F94.72C67B6D@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:H > I also challenge you on "the supposed Intel" money.  There was no signF > of any payment by Intel in the Q3 financial statements and it is not& > known if they paid anything at all.   K From what I have read, Compaq will benefit by being able to draw funds fromuF some Intel porting-toIA64 fund to pay for the port of VMS to IA64 (andI originally for Tru64).  And since its "mainframes" will now have an intel N chip, Intel will pay/subsidize for the advertising of those mainframe hardware@ as long as they have the "intel inside" logo and annoying noise.  I I would not be surprised if that was all that Compaq got out of the deal.iL Compaq was probably very happy to donate the compilers and Alpha as a way to- get rid of something it wasn't interested in.d  $ > There might have been a (tax-free)H > swap of staff and expertise from Compaq in exchange for the removal of< > costs of about $360 million per year on Alpha development.  M Since EV7 is still an active project, and since Compaq is supposed to produce7M at least one more EV7 iteration, I am not sure that Compq would get immediate  cost savings of that magnitude.a  K Sure, it may no longer have the EV8 team on its payroll, but did Intel also7K buy all the workstations and the CAD and various specialized chip designingmN software that was in use ? (oops:, wasn't that software designed by Digital ?)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:03:10 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targetl, Message-ID: <3C153119.F75045CC@videotron.ca>   Jeff Killeen wrote:OI > ...the titles you list above are their current Compaq positions and not K > their HP roles.  Winkler is going to oversee the global supply chain.  It G > appears to me he would be out of the primary product decision loop...)  H What is significant is that as part of a merger where you have twice theM number of needed people, Winkler gets to keep an important job. It means thatTA his pro-microsoft attitudes are compatible with upper management.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:19:51 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targetq, Message-ID: <3C153501.B417259C@videotron.ca>  
 cjt wrote: > C > Scott might want Compaq's customers, but I doubt he wants Compaq.   L Has anyone calculated at what share price Compaq starte to become attractive2 just for its customers and intellectual property ?  M Like buying a 750 for peanuts, throw away the computer and use the cabinet to  put in your stereo/tv  or put in a bar.  K Look at the way American Airlines bought TWA. They only puchased the assetst- they were interested in and ditched the rest.   L A buyer might just get a controlling share, perhaps in conjunction with someN other major shareholder and cannabalize Compaq, returning the proceeds back to- shareholders and getting rid of a competitor..   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:21:46 -0800e0 From: "Brig Campbell" <brig.campbell@unisys.com>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targete0 Message-ID: <9v3g2g$1cpn$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messagel% news:3C152488.D518BE52@prodigy.net...  > Jeff Killeen wrote:  > > ; > > "IsraelRT" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in messagea6 > > news:71061u8e79i92jp85nt4ca8qnmkb48i6vi@4ax.com... > >-B > > > He has not been able to make it profitable for sometime now.I > > > With the global economy now relentlessly nose diving, Compaq has no 2 > > > chance at all of returning to profitability. > >uK > > Surprisingly the $675 million that is suppose to result from the merger F > > being called off may be the most profitable thing Compaq has done. > J > Do they get it if the HP shareholders vote against the HP board's advice > and turn the deal down?  >e  H What's very interesting is the liability the HP board may have incurred.J Originally, the board unanimously supported the merger, now that's not theG case any longer with the family (and board member) set for a proxy war.r8 That action alone has CPQ's lawyers licking their chops.  I No matter what happens, it'll be messy and expensive.  I don't know Carly-J and she might be a great leader, but the list of CEO's that don't have theD support of such an important board member and survive is very short.B Suppose HPQ does happen over the objections of at least 17% of theG shareholders (the families holdings), Carly doesn't exactly win in that5 scenario either...   -brig    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:22:46 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targett, Message-ID: <3C1551D6.14737465@videotron.ca>   Brig Campbell wrote:D > Suppose HPQ does happen over the objections of at least 17% of theI > shareholders (the families holdings), Carly doesn't exactly win in that  > scenario either...    K Especially since no merger is very clean and HP will be stuck with Compaq'st mess for quite some time.e    L If Carly wants to get into Curly's pants and Curly wants to get into Carly'sM dress, why not just switch places for a while ? Curly as head of HP and Carlyr as head of Compaq.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:34:12 -0600e$ From: "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target 4 Message-ID: <b9fR7.2384$Lk3.61347@eagle.america.net>  1 "Ric Werme" <werme@mediaone.net> wrote in messagel6 news:wlWQ7.3024$zX1.5042353@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...( > "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com> writes: >bE > >Cool, a monopoly in desktops.  :-)  Them and about 50,000 garages?  Can2< > >one carry computer shopper without a forklift these days? >,H > Have you seen Computer Shopper lately?  A mere ghost of what it was in theaD > pre-WWW days.  Or whatever it is that made the glory days history. >  > -Ric Werme > --E > "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of. real or.F > perceived emergency, we invariably regret it.   -- Thurgood MarshallE >    Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net @ >    http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete  H I forgot that the small makers and parts suppliers are now either local, or on the net.  
 del cecchi   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Dec 2001 20:57:08 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P  Subject: Re: Compilers and Alpha+ Message-ID: <9v37j4$o8m$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>d  3 In article <0Yp+OJg8pl8C@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:b |> In article <9v2lul$fok$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:= |> > In article <oee21us2pjf1p36fsgspfit2e3014kpaac@4ax.com>,y3 |> >  Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com> writes:s |> > |>'M |> > |> "Sold as slaves to Intel"?  I don't think you'll find anyone here whof1 |> > |> would recognize that as applying to them.  |> > |>  |> > eK |> > I don't know, it was previously stated here that the transfer may have J |> > included some restrictions on where the employee could seek alternateI |> > employment if he chose not to work for Intel.  Without total freedomC: |> > to go where they please they sound like slaves to me. |> @F |> Perhaps Pennsylvania is different, but around New England that sortE |> of restriction would be impossible unless the employee signed someo |> agreement to that effect.  @ I didn't propose it.  A short time ago there was some discussion@ about the possibility that Compaq could revive Alpha and re-hireA the engineers away from Intel.  There was much said here that theaA employees sent to Intel were somehow forbidden to go back to work @ for Compaq by the agreement.  I came out on the side that said IA could not see how that would be legal, but was assured it was notb% only legal, but also common practice.w  7 I still say it sounds like they were sold into slavery.1   bill   -- 6J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 15:16:53 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)k  Subject: Re: Compilers and Alpha3 Message-ID: <T7qeUEM50oKA@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  _ In article <9v37j4$o8m$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 5 > In article <0Yp+OJg8pl8C@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 >  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:d > |> In article <9v2lul$fok$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  M > |> > I don't know, it was previously stated here that the transfer may haverL > |> > included some restrictions on where the employee could seek alternateK > |> > employment if he chose not to work for Intel.  Without total freedomi< > |> > to go where they please they sound like slaves to me. > |>  H > |> Perhaps Pennsylvania is different, but around New England that sortG > |> of restriction would be impossible unless the employee signed some- > |> agreement to that effect. > B > I didn't propose it.  A short time ago there was some discussionB > about the possibility that Compaq could revive Alpha and re-hireC > the engineers away from Intel.  There was much said here that theFC > employees sent to Intel were somehow forbidden to go back to workyB > for Compaq by the agreement.  I came out on the side that said IC > could not see how that would be legal, but was assured it was notm' > only legal, but also common practice.d  B It must be that what was under discussion was an agreement betweenE Compaq and Intel that Compaq would not hire them back for some periods of time.  That would be legal.  A Alternatively, an employment contract with Intel might include antC agreement that the employee would not work for Compaq after leavingeA Intel.  That sort of "no-compete" clause is marginally legal, but > the situation does not fit your description of an employee who "chose not to work for Intel".   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:29:34 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Compilers and AlphaB Message-ID: <yzbR7.210789$8q.20584597@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:T7qeUEM50oKA@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...k  C > Alternatively, an employment contract with Intel might include anmE > agreement that the employee would not work for Compaq after leaving.C > Intel.  That sort of "no-compete" clause is marginally legal, but @ > the situation does not fit your description of an employee who  > "chose not to work for Intel".  J I've heard that such a clause is not enforceable in Massachusetts - though@ Mass. employers often still include it in employment agreements.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:20:02 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)- Subject: Re: Crash Notification:3 Message-ID: <jaMpbQ0ct1bv@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  Y In article <3C1502CC.6CFF8EA3@vmmc.org>, Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> writes: 7 > At the end of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, I have myself paged.l > F > I'd like to differentiate between a normal boot and a crash restart. > B > What can I look at from within DCL to see if this is a normal or > a crash restart?  : Whether the preceding SDA COPY command created a new file.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:59:35 GMT 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>g Subject: Re: Crash Notification 2 Message-ID: <3C151449.2D8A08CE@clarityconnect.com>  G If you are running a fairly recent version, look to see if any new CLUEeF files have been created in SYS$ERRORLOG and/or look thru CLUE HISTORY.   Jack Trachtman wrote:: > 7 > At the end of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, I have myself paged.e > F > I'd like to differentiate between a normal boot and a crash restart. > B > What can I look at from within DCL to see if this is a normal or > a crash restart? > Thanks   -- 9D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:16:24 +0000a% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>a Subject: Re: Crash Notificationt& Message-ID: <3C154248.DC17D90@iee.org>   Jack Trachtman wrote:  > 7 > At the end of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, I have myself paged.  > F > I'd like to differentiate between a normal boot and a crash restart. > B > What can I look at from within DCL to see if this is a normal or > a crash restart?  . The trick I usually use is to have the startup$ procedure create a file with a known: filename (e.g. SYS$MANAGER:NODE-<nodename>-STARTED-OK.FLAG or whatever takes your fancy).  / And I have the site-specific shutdown procedure - delete the file as the system goes down (in at controlled fashion).  ) If the flag-file is found during the boot ) process, then something nasty happened ona* the way down (system crash, power failure,+ idiot standing on the console BREAK key...)l     Antoniof     --     ---------------a- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:07:01 -0500p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-> Subject: Re: Current timetable for HP/CPQ shareholder voting ?, Message-ID: <3C153200.6DEB4BA7@videotron.ca>  I Considering the penalties that HP must pay to Compaq should it be HP that@G nixes the deal, shouldn't the HP shareholders be petitioning the CompaqnM shareholders to say no to the deal as well ? One would need both companies totG nix the deal so that they don't have to pay the big "fines" , correct ?c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 05:14:36 GMTr, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> Subject: Re: DEC is DEAD; Message-ID: <0DgR7.45349$f75.2048301@typhoon.austin.rr.com>e  M In message <L2zUU1w+CP9B@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org  (Bob Koehler) wrote:M > In article <9uga5h$i27$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) writes:d > > I > > Most (probably more than 99%) of televisions still have at least one.0L > > As do a very high percentage of computers for the very same reason.  :-) > G >    I don't want to sound like I'm supporting Antonio, but I do really ( >    like the flat screen on my new Mac.% So, get a flat screen for your alpha.a  ' http://www.epsilon3.com/images/flat.jpgx -- n4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:09:59 +0100m, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: DECUS Switzerland?h& Message-ID: <3C1524A7.7C53D730@gmx.ch>   Hi,t  O I'm desperatly trying to get in touch with the Switzerland chapter of DECUS. NopL answer to email, no postal address on their WEB site, noone knows anybody atN COMPAQ about them and the European DECUS chapter in Belgium does not even knowQ their address. If someone around here can tell me if they still exist, please do.    Thanks,l   D. -- nG   --------------------------------------------------------------------- E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmleE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670h/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.s  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 12:45:34 -0800= From: robert.fairfield@verizonwireless.com (Robert Fairfield)i Subject: Re: disk shadowingm< Message-ID: <4b4254e.0112101245.18212a98@posting.google.com>   Rob,  F If you are having a 'controlled shutdown', then try setting the SYSGENC dynamic parameter SHADOW_MAX_COPY TO 0 on all nodes before shuttingp& down. This will disable shadow merges.   Robert Fairfield    c "Rob L Lyons" <rob.lyons@resilientsys.com> wrote in message news:<9v2j75$qoc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...nV > Kenneth <chehon@net-yan.com> wrote in message news:9uvvfu$24sd$1@news.net-yan.com...L > > I am using 2 X AS8400 running VMS7.2-1 cluster with host base shadowing.K > > When I shudown one node, the other node will perform a disk merge. ThisrP > > would not be a prblem if it only perform the minimerge, however, some of theP > > disks will perform a full merge and will create extensive addtional IO. I amN > > using HSJ50 for all disks and have checked the characteristic and flag for< > > the device and all the disk are have the "wlg" flag set. > M > You should be able to avoid merges completely if you are shutting down withmA > the REMOVE NODE option of the shutdown procedure.  Or you couldfQ > dismount/system all the application disks and eliminate all but the system disko  > plus maybe a page/swap device. > M > > The problem is why one disks can perform minimerge sometime but sometimes K > > not? Is there any thing I can do to make them do minimerge everything IpN > > shutdown the system? Can I stop the merging in the middle and schedule the > > merge off the peak hours?r > Z > When a write history log does not hold enough data to satisfy the minimerge requirementsL > it can indicate that the disk is overloaded with too many I/Os per second. >  > Rob Lyons- > Consultant > High Availability Systemse   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:03:31 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)g Subject: Re: disk shadowingo= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0112101403.2558761d@posting.google.com>e  X "Kenneth" <chehon@net-yan.com> wrote in message news:<9uvvfu$24sd$1@news.net-yan.com>...J > I am using 2 X AS8400 running VMS7.2-1 cluster with host base shadowing.D > When I shudown one node, the other node will perform a disk merge.  E As Rob Buxton pointed out, the shadowsets that are subject to a merge ? opeartion are the ones which are mounted when a node leaves theu@ cluster.  SHUTDOWN.COM tries to dismount all the shadowsets, butC various things can cause them to hang in a Mounted/Dismount-Pending<F state, like open files, mapped global sections, installed images, etc.E  Doing a SHOW DEVICE/FILES command on all shadowsets in SYSHUTDWN.COMc= may give you some clues to help resolve this type of problem.    > ThisN > would not be a prblem if it only perform the minimerge, however, some of theN > disks will perform a full merge and will create extensive addtional IO. I amL > using HSJ50 for all disks and have checked the characteristic and flag for: > the device and all the disk are have the "wlg" flag set.  A Good.  So you know the controller hardware supports the Shadowing $ Assist called Write History Logging.  K > The problem is why one disks can perform minimerge sometime but sometimesaI > not? Is there any thing I can do to make them do minimerge everything Ir > shutdown the system?  C As Peter pointed out, first make sure you have the latest ShadowingeC patch kit installed.  There have been bugs in this area in the pastaD which caused full merges when mini-merges should have been possible.  D The console will log merge operations and indicate whether they wereF mini-merges.  So from console output you should be able to get an ideaD of how many shadowsets get done with mini-merges and how many had to undergo full merges.  C In my experience, the most common cause of full merges despite MSCPtF controllers is that the SYSGEN parameter SHADOW_MAX_COPY is set to tooE low a value (it defaults to only 4, and as we've seen already in this : thread, some advise lowering it even further, which in theE MSCP-controller case actually makes the problem worse!).  Despite the D "_COPY" in its name, shadow merge threads are also throttled by thisD parameter.  If the value is too low, some merge operations will haveE to be deferred until later; at that later time, the write history lognD entries in the controller which were present at the time of the nodeD crash may have subsequently been reused (overwritten) and thus lost,B so Shadowing is then forced to do a (painful) full merge operation instead of a mini-merge.  ? My advice (with MSCP controllers) is to ensure that when a nodeeF crashes, the sum of SHADOW_MAX_COPY values on the other nodes needs to< be at least as high as the number of mounted shadowsets (andF preferably somewhat higher, since most folks add shadowsets over time)B so that sufficient shadow merge threads are available to attempt a+ mini-merge on all shadowsets without delay.-  7 > Can I stop the merging in the middle and schedule theF > merge off the peak hours?t  E Well, kind of.  If you dismount all but one disk from each shadowset,DB the merges will stop. :-)  (Actually, don't laugh -- although thisB throws away the redundancy that is the primary attribute of VolumeA Shadowing, I've seen cases where during times of extreme customerrB workload it was considered preferable to stop the full-merges withD dismounts and then initate full-copy operations instead, because theE I/O load was so significantly reduced that it allowed the applicationsE to provide acceptable performance, where this was not possible duringlF full-merge operations.  So it was a risk/benefit tradeoff.  Acceptable5 performance is one aspect of high availability, too.)@? --------------------------------------------------------------- ? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:d> Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:02:46 -0500,  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com Subject: Re: disk shadowing 4 Message-ID: <C2256B1E.0078DEF0.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  M If shutdown is run, shadowsets should dismount cleanly and not go into merge.i  # What is causing all disks to merge?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:38:09 -0800e< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> Subject: Re: disk shadowingr) Message-ID: <3C153951.BE107FA5@intel.com>o   Robert Fairfield wrote:    > Rob, > H > If you are having a 'controlled shutdown', then try setting the SYSGENE > dynamic parameter SHADOW_MAX_COPY TO 0 on all nodes before shuttingp( > down. This will disable shadow merges.    F     Respectfully disagreeing, that is precisely the WRONG thing to do.  D     One WANTS mini-merges: they happen within seconds.  But in orderD to do a mini-merge, the remaining node (this was a two-node cluster)D must be able to service as many of the merge requests as possible asE quickly as possible.  Any significant delay, and the mini-merges turn@H into full merges.  Depending upon how many volumes are actually mounted,D one would like to have SHADOW_MAX_COPY set about equal to the number& of volumes (but there are caveats...).  *     So to summarize what others have said,  A         1) be sure you have the latest VMS721_SHAD ECO installed,n@           (there have been some significant changes that GREATLY'            improved mini-merge issues), A         2) if at all possible, be sure the node shutting down haspA            shut down applications that might otherwise keep files             open,=         3) increase SHADOW_MAX_COPY to the largest reasonables#            value you can live with.l  G On an Alpha 8400, I'd think you could have SHADOW_MAX_COPY in the rangelA of 15-25 without an issue.  Of course you _will_ suffer if a nodehD CRASHES (as opposed to a normal shutdown) since then you will likely@ have many more that are marked for merge, and therefore liekly a; greater number FULL merges and/or shadow copies to service.        -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:39:36 -0800I< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> Subject: Re: disk shadowingc) Message-ID: <3C1555C8.E3AE0520@intel.com>i   Keith Parris wrote:s   [...]   A > My advice (with MSCP controllers) is to ensure that when a nodesH > crashes, the sum of SHADOW_MAX_COPY values on the other nodes needs to> > be at least as high as the number of mounted shadowsets (andH > preferably somewhat higher, since most folks add shadowsets over time)D > so that sufficient shadow merge threads are available to attempt a- > mini-merge on all shadowsets without delay.a  =     Don't forget that SHADOW_MAX_COPY is a DYNAMIC parameter. < You can increase it at any time. :-)  Of course, you'll want< to update MODPARAMS.DAT and the CURRENT sysgen parameters as, well if you want the change to be permanent.       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:32:29 -0000I= From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@spitfire0.demon.co.uk>y Subject: Re: disk shadowingrB Message-ID: <1008034373.22069.0.nnrp-08.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  E Whilst dynamic, don't forget it only applies to events after you havet changed the parameter.  0 It won't stop copies or merges that have started   -- David McKenzie Charon Consulting (Australia) ( david.mckenzie@mig.spitfire0.demon.co.uk   (But who wants a Mig?)   !sG "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> wrote in message # news:3C1555C8.E3AE0520@intel.com...  > Keith Parris wrote:h >C > [...]l >eC > > My advice (with MSCP controllers) is to ensure that when a nodeuJ > > crashes, the sum of SHADOW_MAX_COPY values on the other nodes needs to@ > > be at least as high as the number of mounted shadowsets (andJ > > preferably somewhat higher, since most folks add shadowsets over time)F > > so that sufficient shadow merge threads are available to attempt a/ > > mini-merge on all shadowsets without delay.e > ? >     Don't forget that SHADOW_MAX_COPY is a DYNAMIC parameter.r> > You can increase it at any time. :-)  Of course, you'll want> > to update MODPARAMS.DAT and the CURRENT sysgen parameters as. > well if you want the change to be permanent. >n
 >     -Ken > --8 > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >  >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:26:25 +0100. From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>7 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)o' Message-ID: <3C150C61.B26BAA4D@home.nl>:  I You forgot one of the most important features. EDT will keep the originalgL file attributes, a file with fixed record sizes etc. will stay the same. EVE  will change the file attributes.   regards,   Dirk   Phillip Helbig wrote:y  K > > And I did a limited test with a small file > 255 characters per record. H > > Even though EDT claims to truncate these records, it appears that itI > > only does so for display purposes, writing the complete records on ano	 > > EXIT.l >eF > If the long lines are already there, fine.  But one can't manipulateI > longer lines.  This, the 65535 limit on number of lines and the lack ofn> > a learn feature I see as the only real disadvantages of EDT. >-B > With regard to the length of lines, it is rare that I need to doI > anything with an editor on a file with such long lines.  With regard tojG > the number of lines, not quite so rare, though usually limited to themI > beginning of the file as mentioned, so also not a problem.  Personally, I > I rarely run into situations where learning a sequence of keystrokes ise > worth the time to set it up. >t; > For those not familiar with EDT, what do I like about it?  >a; > It displays non-printable characters in an intuitive way.O >c
 > It is fast.a >w > It is a mature product.- >-J > There is none of the annoying lack of synchronisation between keystrokes8 > and display which TPU has even on a very fast machine. >e$ > It is easily usable in batch mode. >cJ > its command language is terse but powerful (not QUITE TECO-like, but you > get the idea)e >eJ > I have to admit, though, that I have little experience with TPU and even% > less with its DECwindows interface.M   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:50:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)c7 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)r3 Message-ID: <F0xRNSawf7dz@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  H In article <3C150C61.B26BAA4D@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:K > You forgot one of the most important features. EDT will keep the original N > file attributes, a file with fixed record sizes etc. will stay the same. EVE" > will change the file attributes.  > Have these both fixed the bug of putting an output file in the= first level of a rooted directory (e.g., SYS$SPECIFIC) rathera2 than the level in which the input file was found ?  ; When rooted directories were first introduced, TECO was thee only editor that got it right.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:21:14 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a7 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work).; Message-ID: <01KBPU8695ZC9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  @ > Have these both fixed the bug of putting an output file in the? > first level of a rooted directory (e.g., SYS$SPECIFIC) rathern4 > than the level in which the input file was found ?  D Just tried (7.2-1H1) and behaviour is TECO-consistent, i.e. what it H should be.  I'm sure this has been fixed for a while, at least with EDT.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 17:20:41 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)f= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112101720.7488343f@posting.google.com>r  M Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:<3C150C61.B26BAA4D@home.nl>...sK > You forgot one of the most important features. EDT will keep the original N > file attributes, a file with fixed record sizes etc. will stay the same. EVE" > will change the file attributes. > 
 > regards, >  > Dirk >   M Unfortunately though, if you edit say an indexed file w/attributes, alternate-O keys, then the file is stripped back to sequential and then you have to converto it back ...j   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:38:47 GMT44 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>R Subject: Final Heads-Up on DFWCUG Meeting in Dallas on Tuesday evening 11 December- Message-ID: <HX9R7.27210$wL4.66500@rwcrnsc51>t  J Seats are filling up for the Dallas Fort Worth Computer User Group meetingI that'll be held at the Compaq Office at Lincoln Center, Dallas on Tuesday L December 11. Notorious Belgian Hacker Cedric Zool will join Charlie Matco inE the first public display of the Alpha 21364C EV7 microprocessor. SaidlI processor was plucked from the very heart of a running Marvel system justw* ten days ago, and it is a sight to behold!  F Also disclosed will be a saucerful of secrets on things QuickBlade and6 Marvel-related. A splendid time is guaranteed for all!  G Rumour has it that mass quantities of food and drink will be on hand as- well.e  I To participate in this historic event, visit the DFWCUG cyberclubhouse atc www.dfwcug.org   Be there or be square!  
 terry shannon30 Board Member and Candidate, Encompass US Chapter+ "A vote for me is a vote for Charlie Matco"E   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:50:23 GMTw1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>C Subject: ftp problem4 Message-ID: <3m8R7.5847$zZ5.117669@news.kpnqwest.fi>  7 I'm trying to get ascii files from a linux box via ftp.lL With smaller files it qoes OK. I get the files and convert them to STREAM_LFL format to be readable in VMS box. With bigger files the ftp (ascii) transferI fails with RMS-W-RTB, 36864 byte record too large for users buffer. I can E get the files by using binary mode, but after that the resulting filel  records are cut 512 byte pieces.  F Is there any way to convert the file after binary transfer to have theJ original "record lengths" (<cr><lf> marks the lines in unix side) ? What I< get with the smaller files after succesful ascii transfer is  H Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control   and after convert/fdlo  B Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control  % This is OK, but after binary transfer   1 Record format:      Fixed length 512 byte records  Record attributes:  None  
 convert...  A Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 512 bytes$4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control  7 Hopefully I got the problem explained understandably :)n  / OS: OpenVMS alpha 7.2-1H1       TCPIP 5.1 ECO 3dK No idea what the linux box ftp client is and I have no other access besides  ftp to the box at the moment .   -Kari-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:30:28 -05005# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>c Subject: RE: ftp problem: Message-ID: <NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAGEFIDOAA.dallen@nist.gov>   	Hmm...o  M 	ASCII mode transfers mandate that the sending system send each RECORD with a H 	CRLF terminator.  Since Linux files are LF terminated records the LinuxF 	FTP server adds CR's to each record as it is sent. The VMS FTP clientN 	strips the CRLF's and writes a variable length record with the result.  FilesL 	transferred in ASCII mode should not require conversion to STREAM_LF format 	to be usable.  J 	The RMS-W-RTB error sounds like the UNIX server is sending in BINARY modeJ 	(not adding the CR's) which makes the file look like one great big recordM 	to the VMS client (who's expecting ASCII mode data) and causes the RMS errort 	that you're getting.d  4 	Are you sure the files are indeed ASCII text files?  : 	What TCP/IP/FTP package are you using on the VMS machine?   	Dan -   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Kari Keronen [mailto:kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi]) > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 2:50 PMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0 > Subject: ftp problem >  > 9 > I'm trying to get ascii files from a linux box via ftp.<N > With smaller files it qoes OK. I get the files and convert them to STREAM_LFN > format to be readable in VMS box. With bigger files the ftp (ascii) transferK > fails with RMS-W-RTB, 36864 byte record too large for users buffer. I canbG > get the files by using binary mode, but after that the resulting filea" > records are cut 512 byte pieces. > H > Is there any way to convert the file after binary transfer to have theL > original "record lengths" (<cr><lf> marks the lines in unix side) ? What I> > get with the smaller files after succesful ascii transfer is > J > Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control >  > and after convert/fdl  > D > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > ' > This is OK, but after binary transferf > 3 > Record format:      Fixed length 512 byte records  > Record attributes:  None >  > convert... > C > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 512 bytesh6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > 9 > Hopefully I got the problem explained understandably :)e > 1 > OS: OpenVMS alpha 7.2-1H1       TCPIP 5.1 ECO 3 M > No idea what the linux box ftp client is and I have no other access besides   > ftp to the box at the moment . >  > -Kari- >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:07:05 +0100s From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: ftp problem' Message-ID: <3C153208.24899C8F@home.nl>y  1 What you can do to get the file you want is this:e   1. Do a binary transfer.P 2. Use DUMP to analyze the file you got on your VMS system. You have to look for/ <cr>, <lf> or <cr><lf> at the end of each line.tK 3. Use SET FILE /ATTRIBUTES to change the file attributes of your file. ForlG instance if you found <lf> as line terminator, change the attributes toe; STREAM_LF. You can set the maximum RMS record size (32676).a  L You can do this because the internal structure of the file is STREAM_LF, you only have to tell RMS :-).   Kari Keronen wrote:t  9 > I'm trying to get ascii files from a linux box via ftp.eN > With smaller files it qoes OK. I get the files and convert them to STREAM_LFN > format to be readable in VMS box. With bigger files the ftp (ascii) transferK > fails with RMS-W-RTB, 36864 byte record too large for users buffer. I can G > get the files by using binary mode, but after that the resulting filew" > records are cut 512 byte pieces. > H > Is there any way to convert the file after binary transfer to have theL > original "record lengths" (<cr><lf> marks the lines in unix side) ? What I> > get with the smaller files after succesful ascii transfer is > J > Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control >r > and after convert/fdlh >lD > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control >t' > This is OK, but after binary transferg >h3 > Record format:      Fixed length 512 byte recordst > Record attributes:  None >v > convert... >eC > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 512 bytesa6 > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control >e9 > Hopefully I got the problem explained understandably :)  >n1 > OS: OpenVMS alpha 7.2-1H1       TCPIP 5.1 ECO 3 M > No idea what the linux box ftp client is and I have no other access besidesr  > ftp to the box at the moment . >f > -Kari-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:34:25 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-C Subject: Re: How to tell if foreign command (SET COMMAND) is known?n' Message-ID: <3C157EFB.220B0BCB@fsi.net>f   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3C12F0E3.EDA93460@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:j > F > > If you use thee verbs consistently, you'll make better use of yourJ > > working set by putting them permanently into your login command table.F > > When you SET COMMAND, the command table must be copied from sharedI > > system memory into process-private memory. That make less working setm > > available for code/data. > A > Of course modifying DCLTABLES.EXE typically requires privilege.3  C Installing a modified DCLTABLES.EXE requires privilege. The file is / WORLD:RE on the systems I can access from here.   H Building a private command table (disk file) does not require privilege.@ Actually modifying your UAF record to use it is another question	 entirely.f   -- s David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:23:22 -0500c' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>lC Subject: Re: How to tell if foreign command (SET COMMAND) is known?s< Message-ID: <howard-7D9E6C.00231811122001@enews.newsguy.com>  ' In article <3C157EFB.220B0BCB@fsi.net>,S3  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:m  J > Building a private command table (disk file) does not require privilege.B > Actually modifying your UAF record to use it is another question > entirely.t  L Since that's not necessary, it doesn't matter.  Once logged in, you can do a   $ SET COMMAND/TABLE=file  I and switch over, as far as I can tell.  Modifying the UAF record is only a! necessary to use it -by default-.e -- e Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"( Golf vs Bug: VW has been cutting corners   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:26:36 GMTf1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e+ Subject: Re: HP Foundations - let them know ' Message-ID: <3C157D24.36451DCD@fsi.net>e   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > ! > Paul Sture wrote in message ...aC > >In article <3C1193A3.53645447@fsi.net>, David J. Dachtera wrote:  > >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > >> >K > >> > So Bill, have you spoken to a "significant portion of our enterprise0 > >> > customer base"? > >> >9 > >> > Or does that mean you, and 3 other guys in c.o.v.?R > >>@ > >> Geez, Fred! I truly believed you knew better than that. I'm > >> disappointed... > >>K > >> Seems to me "a significant portion of its enterprise customer base" is,G > >> represented by regular posters here including, but not limited to,eK > >> Cerner, Abbott Labs, Sunquest, Nortel, Argonne, Comdisco, to name mostiF > >> of the few that I am aware of outside of the DoD and the academicH > >> community. I'll let the posts that have gone through this newsgroup  > >> group speak for themselves. > >>I > >And I'll just add major banks, stock brokers and their exchanges, mailtB > >order companies, car/truck manufacturers, travel agent software? > >suppliers, and an occasional insurance company to that list.m > E > I'll repeat this again.  Not even the majority of "writers" to this.L > conference have posted anything nearly as negative as Bill, or even simpleG > agreement with Bill.  It is pretty much Bill and a handful of others.:  H Bill and the others like him probably have a perceived (by them) lack ofE anything to lose since they've likely written off VMS. So, they don'ta; have to worry about leaving a sour taste in anyone's mouth.s  C I'm not far behind them - I'm just too stupid to know when to quit!A  rM > That isn't to say that there are not people here who are concerned, or evensM > unhappy about recent events.  However, I continue to get private mail, fromsL > those who do not want to be added to Bill's "anyone who disagree's with me: > is an idiot" list - supporting OpenVMS, and it's future.  ? If you're privy to information that has escaped the media, this F newsgroup, etc., bravo for you. We've seen little - if anything - that( purports even the remotest hope for VMS.  @ Recent events have done nothing and offerred less to abate that:  + o Major hurdles to the merger being erected G o Alphacide, no viable IA64 = no where for VMS to go (market perceptiontG = market reality = our reality = no jobs, no sales, 86 on VMS, over andy OUT!).  G Again, if you're privy to anything that gives hope of a future for VMS,nE now is the time to speak up. Your employer and your job are at stake!    [snip]L > In the middle of a industry wide slump in system sales, he would attribute7 > all of our problems to the decision regarding Alpha. 2  ; Well, not *ALL*, but by far a great, overwhelming majority.t  A Oh sure, you'll likely see sales now just like VAXcide(?) - folksmG stocking up now on what they can get while they can get it. After that,eD it'll be like racing at full throttle off the white Cliffs of Dover.   > On the other hand, IL > continue to see the internal large "wins" messages for new VMS sales, thatM > would seem to counter that (and no, we do not make such wins public without ! > the customer wishing it to be).t  H How 'bout seeing if you can at least get permission to say publicly, "onF xx-xxx-xxxx, we sold a total of $nn,nnn,nnn worth of (Alpha, StgWorks,> etc.) to y customer(s)"? ("n" and "y" are integers, of course)  J > I have every reason to believe that OpenVMS will emerge from this in the9 > best shape and position that it has been in for years. r  G Do you also have inside info. from Intel as to when they'll FINALLY(!!) F have a viable, saleable IA64/IPF CPU for building into OpenVMS-capable systems?   > We will have theL > same robust and trusted O/S, and we will have it on a platform that shouldI > provide competetive performance, with lower costs.  We will continue to K > support VAX and Alpha.  My direct contact with several customers has beenoL > very positive.  The indirect evidence I have from others who are in direct3 > contact with customers and ISVs is also positive.a  H As much detail as you can disclose in regard to the foregoing would be a *VERY* *LARGE* help!  I > I see no value in continuing to dwell on "why" the current decision was  > made.   B Nor do I - it's water under the bridge, except that damage control remains to be addressed.  F > I myself do not share Bills beliefs on the subject.  There is littleM > reason to believe that even if all Bills beliefs/accusations are true, that-H > there is anything that can reverse our course, and revive Alpha.  MoreN > likely is that if Bill were to somehow succeed in his negative campain, thatN > it would mean that OpenVMS customers would decline to a point below critical< > mass for anything except maintenance mode and end of life.  C Well, granted. However, be that as may, you probably saw my belatedeG response to Hoff in another thread. The issue of damage control remainst? of paramount import, especially in light of recent developmentse surrounding the merger.t  B Right now, Compaq is in a dangerously vulnerable position, with noF margin for error. One wrong word can destroy any hope there may be for= the future of Compaq, VMS, etc. The spin-meisters remain MIA.e  H I'm still in denial about the death of VMS, also. I'd love to share yourF optimisitc assessment. However, with no evidence available directly to; me, optimism is becoming more and more difficult every day.   E *ANY* positive *EVIDENCE* will go further than sparring verbally witho *ANY*one here.   Let's face it...   -- u David J. Dachterap dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:53:21 GMTi5 From: "Ken and Kelley Coleman" <knkcoleman@attbi.com>f" Subject: Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- Message-ID: <5jgR7.28855$wL4.88207@rwcrnsc51>0  > Well, we voted and it turned out that you ARE the weakest Link  	 Good bye!m  1 (just kidding, of course...I haven't a clue why.)7      6 "Dannie de Waard" <dewaard@wt.tno.nl> wrote in message7 news:2ecc4670.0112100243.399a1332@posting.google.com...e6 > Why am I not receiving any more mail from this list? >E > Dannie de Waardi   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:56:07 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?@ Message-ID: <bz7R7.52591$C8.3208001@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messageo) news:u19sci8demkm43@corp.supernews.com...- >-L > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message1 > news:20011210162630.3176.qmail@gacracker.org...H@ > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:I > > >Yes I but IMO what has happened is because most of us believe from arF > > >technology standpoint OVMS is the superior OS rather than looking inward > atI > > >OVMS factors that limited it in the market place some have jumped onc! > > >theories about Q management.a > >n > > What else is there?y > L > This is likely high heresy in c.o.v. but because of the tradeoffs required IeK > don't not believe it is possible to produce a universal OS that will havel& > leadership across all major markets.  F While I'd have argued against that thesis 17 or so years ago, when VMSK emphatically *did* have the potential to attain leadership across all majorlK markets, existing market presences today (especially Windows' domination ofDJ the desktop and consequent attractive familiarity for non-critical low-end# servers) lends some credence to it.   L But that's not the point.  I don't know if you're doing it deliberately, butJ your statement above is a red herring.  Taking advantage of being the bestL general-purpose OS does not imply attaining anything like 'leadership across> all major markets':  it just requires a commitment to coveringL general-purpose needs (e.g., one might be providing a Unix persona for those who would like one).  H Take the entire Unix market, add in the older IBM proprietary platforms,H look at all the customers struggling to make low-end-to-mid-range WintelJ servers do their jobs, and even a small slice of that total would multiplyJ current VMS sales many times.  Now explain why Compaq has shown absolutelyL no interest in pursuing such market expansion with a system that has managedD to maintain market share, including finding new customers to replaceE departing ones, without any help from its owner and even gained sharemK modestly on the slightest signs that this neglect might be starting to comea
 to an end.  J (And you still seem inclined to question VMS's profitability without beingL willing to address Compaq's own numbers from last year indicating annual VMSA system-related profits of $800 million on revenue of $4 billion.)g  '   The very thing we value about OVMS isoJ > its weakness - a well architect and engineered (technology) OS that whenL > extended remains very consistent with it past.  The tradeoffs one makes inK > their go to market strategy is "cost" versus "technology" versus "time to 
 > market".  H Is anyone else as sick of hearing about 'go to market strategy' as I am?I That sounds like the kind of bull vendors shovel out when they don't have-K products to offer that people actually *want* - and for at least the past 3eJ years, Compaq's ability just to go to market and return with its pants has seemed questionable.  K Compaq still seems intent on ridding itself of all product differentiators, ; which is a hell of a strange way to go about emulating IBM.e   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 19:14:14 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>n< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?5 Message-ID: <20011210191414.8372.qmail@gacracker.org>   < On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:K >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in messagek0 >news:20011210162630.3176.qmail@gacracker.org...? >> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:eH >> >Yes I but IMO what has happened is because most of us believe from aL >> >technology standpoint OVMS is the superior OS rather than looking inwardK >> >at OVMS factors that limited it in the market place some have jumped on ! >> >theories about Q management. : >> >> What else is there? >.M >This is likely high heresy in c.o.v. but because of the tradeoffs required InJ >don't not believe it is possible to produce a universal OS that will have% >leadership across all major markets.a  E I don't expect VMS to obtain leadership across all markets. What I dohK expect it that it should be marketed as a viable alternative to UN*X as thei universal OS for all markets.f  & >The very thing we value about OVMS isI >its weakness - a well architect and engineered (technology) OS that whenn/ >extended remains very consistent with it past.t  E This should be a major selling point, there is no likelihood that thelC supplier will make major changes that break functionality. The very B stability of the OS could, and should, be used as a selling point.   >The tradeoffs one makes ineJ >their go to market strategy is "cost" versus "technology" versus "time toH >market".  OVMS has not compromised "technology" in the name of "time toK >market" as Windows has.  OVMS has not compromised "technology" in the namedM >of "cost" as Unix has.  There are both "cost" and "time to market" tradeoffs J >one IMO has to make to achieve a well architect and engineered OS that is! >extended consistently over time.r  E VMS has achieved this well thought-out, well engineered goal. Time to J market doesn't come into the picture because we're not talking about an OS& that must be upgraded every 12 months.  L >OVMS could never be what is great about if it took on attempting to deliver& >leadership in cost or time to market.  E I don't understand why you bring up time to market. VMS is a *mature*nF operating system, it is always available and upgrades are a relativelyH painless process. Witness the fact that many customers remain on what weK might consider obsolete versions because their business needs are fulfilledt by what they have.  & >What I suspect some in c.o.v. haven'tK >internalized is that no matter what Digital/Compaq management did IMO theyuL >couldn't have made OVMS a universal platform without fundamentally changing >the gestalt of OVMS.u  J Why? All the damn OS needs is believable commitment through marketing, you, won't find many here who disagree with that.  L >There are many things that Digital/Compaq management did that made it worseH >but OVMS couldn't remain what it is and have been a mass market OS likeK >Windows or Unix.  It would have either had cost problems or time to marketx? >problems.  Digital should have pursued a multi-OS strategy andR >multi-platform strategy...g  I I agree that Compaq and Digital have failed miserably in emulating IBM inhB that respect. However, this strikes me as an expected outcome fromI following the stock market too closely, failing to make long term plans &gG commmitments, and believing too much of the hype coming out of Redmond.   F BTW, read my sig. It strikes me that it characterizes Compaq's view of sales and marketing.     Doc. -- m6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.neta   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:42:43 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?B Message-ID: <Te8R7.142461$tf5.7457342@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C14FC31.373B036D@swissonline.delete.ch...a   ...r  E > Sure the PCs returned a higher revenue (almost 50% of total revenuedE > compared to 34%) but margins on PCs are very thin and that does noti > translate into income.  K Most of the remainder was service revenue.  It would be interesting to know.K how that breaks down, and in the absence of that information fairly easy to:G suspect that most of it did not come as a result of PC sales (and quiteRE possibly not even as the result of 'industry-standard server' sales).    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 19:39:32 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>t< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?5 Message-ID: <20011210193932.9358.qmail@gacracker.org>e  < On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:  H Firstly, I wish you wouldn't split up your arguments, it makes following: the discussion a little more difficult and time-consuming.  K >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in messager0 >news:20011210162630.3176.qmail@gacracker.org... > M >> I, and many others here, believe it can thrive if properly marketed as thee# >> best general-purpose OS around. e >iK >That is where we disagree because of my last posting.  To be graphic aboutsJ >it - the general purpose market means having to compete with whores and IM >don't think OVMS can remain what it is and play the game of compromise one'sp/ >self in the name of "cost" or "time to market"-  K Many, myself included, have criticised the pricing of VMS. We all know thatoF TCO for VMS is supposedly less than any other OS, but that doesn't getA considered because companies only look one or two quarters ahead.s  I However, I re-examined your last posting in the search for what justifiesj) the disagreement. This is what I found...a  E >Yes I but IMO what has happened is because most of us believe from ayL >technology standpoint OVMS is the superior OS rather than looking inward atE >OVMS factors that limited it in the market place some have jumped ona >theories about Q management.   J Now, my response to that is, precisely what factors have limited it in theI market place. Since we're all talking opinion here, I'll give mine - it'sr simple.h   Lack of effective marketing.  H >> There certainly are a large number of forces in play here. However, II >> suspect Carly and Curly want to be number one at something. The mergerdG >> achieves that in the PC space, although I suspect it would only be as8 >> matter of time before Dell regained the crown there.  >:J >No mystery at all there - they have been very very public about what theyK >want to be number one at.  IBM will be number one at delivering integrated>C >proprietary solutions.  HP/Compaq will be number one at deliveringsM >integrated open (Unix/Windows/Linux/Internet) solutions.  They have repeateduJ >it over and over again that they want to be the open systems foil to IBM. >That is NOT Dell's strategy..  J The merger is perhaps left well alone, what I still fail to see is why youG so vehemently dispute the figures researched and published here by Bille Todd and John McLean.b  J >The black helicopter crowd might read the above as ah ha that proves theyJ >are against OVMS because they want to be the open systems company!  OK ifC >you feel that way but please read what I wrote before you responsekM >open=Unix/Windows/Linux/Internet and NOT open=Windows.  (Yes I know how openi >Windows is)...t  I I'm not particularly interested in Windows, that isn't the market segmentlF that VMS is supposed to compete in. Anyways, you're the one that keepsD bringing up black helicopters. Better make sure your tinfoil is well wrapped round your head :-)r     Doc. -- a6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.neta   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:04:42 GMTk* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?> Message-ID: <uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagee) news:u19ogdjt0jcdd3@corp.supernews.com...b7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagei> > news:uz4R7.208554$8q.20250959@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...K > > You keep acting as if 'those ['claimed'] OVMS profit numbers' came fromt meK > > and not from Compaq itself:  I suggest you ask Terry and Rob where theyu > came3 > > from and adjust your understanding accordingly.t >u< > The 1.5 Billion number cam from you (adding Tru64 and NSK)  K Another red herring.  The context of my point above was yet another attempteK on your part to cast doubt on *VMS's* profitability:  "If those OVMS profitrI numbers are as good as claimed here hiding them would be neither in theire6 personal interest or the interest of the stock price."  L So given that the OVMS profit numbers came from Compaq, how do you reconcileF this with Compaq's obvious disinclination to publicize them or promoteJ additional VMS sales?  Do you still consider such actions to be consistentL with management's personal interests (at least with your definition of them,J which seems to be 'the good of the company', though my definition includesJ personal fiefdoms and perceived BoD preferences and thus is much easier to; reconcile), let alone with the interest of the stock price?s   >oL > > > Allow me to offer this food for thought - while every corporate leader	 > > comesnL > > > to the job with biases when corporate leaders reach a certain level in as< > > > company their primary focus becomes shareholder value. > >eF > > Oh, is that a 'fact'?  Sure sounds as if you presented it as such. >wK > True - but history has shown insitutional investors correct it when it is( > not the case  H Sort of like they've been correcting Compaq's stock price these past few months?g   ...t  J > > > keep in mind that few large technology companies, and soon it may be > none,aK > > > are true believers in any given technology anymore - few, if any, arel > leftJ > > > that behave like Digital did in the 1980's.  Compaq is a creature of > whatD > > > the business is becoming.  They are a symptom and the cause... > >rK > > You obviously don't understand how DEC worked back when it worked well.p > K > No that is your assumption as to what I was saying.  In the context of mysJ > coment it was that Digital was loyal to technology paths way beyond what weD > are seeing today.  Re: below - no where did I suggest "one basket"  H That certainly seems to be a reasonable interpretation of your statementK still quoted above:  "keep in mind that few large technology companies, andeI soon it may be none, are true believers in any given technology anymore -eK few, if any, are left that behave like Digital did in the 1980's" certainlytI suggests that you're talking about a company believing in *a* ('any givensD technology' - singular) technology and suggesting that this was what "Digital did in the 1980's".  J This is hardly the first time you've attempted to redefine your statementsG ex post facto (not even the first in this post - see initial correctiontJ above).  It's not a competent way to carry on a discussion, and leaves oneK wondering if it's intentional (in which case it's sleazy, an impression oneoB assumes you would prefer not to give if it's merely a problem with' sloppiness in wording and/or thinking).t   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:58:45 -0500n& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <u1atjdi750ogb1@corp.supernews.com>a  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagel8 news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com...E > Another red herring.  The context of my point above was yet another  attemptdF > on your part to cast doubt on *VMS's* profitability:  "If those OVMS profitK > numbers are as good as claimed here hiding them would be neither in theirp8 > personal interest or the interest of the stock price."  I Correct and if you had stayed with the context of the comments I had been-F making you wouldn't be claiming I ever said there was a question aboutJ OVMS's profitability.  Go back and read the first couple of postings - theK issue was, and still is, the article of faith in this group that OVMS is souL much more profitable than the ISSG servers.  This is at least the 3rd time IC have pointed out I wasn't questioning if OVMS was profitable - only.K questioning how profitable it was.  It if was so dramatically profitable ineH relation to the other server lines Compaq executives would be nuts to beL hiding that fact from shareholders.  Note the terms "very profitable", "moreH profitable", and "great source of profit" below in the original posting.1 Did you even bother to read the original posting?7  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messageJ! news:3c114ab0$1@news.toast.net...eD > Something I have noticed in this newsgroup is people stating their	 _opinion_-J > about how profitable OVMS is to the point where it has become an article ofG > faith.  What is interesting is that data points exist to the contraryf (veryOJ > profitable) and to my knowledge Compaq does not provide the data to back upA > any claim.  The statement that caught my attention today was...  >nJ > "Can't remember about the larger (although I'm sure the $9B of VMS, UnixH > and Tandem put together get at least near to 50%) - more profitable is > an established fact. " >iF > Alpha and NSK servers are more profitable than ISSG servers as fact?I > Especially as it relates to 8-ways?  Where is the data to back this up?v > J > I do NOT claim that either case is true but my malarky detector goes offJ > each time I see this stated as fact.  Unfortunately I see a lot of POV'sL > based on the assumption that Alpha servers are this great source of profitK > that Compaq is throwing away.  While I am not claiming that Alpha servers L > are grossly unprofitable like the Access Group stuff I do wonder about theJ > profitability of the Intel, Alpha, and Hymilaya server groups.  Based onL > public information I suspect all 3 groups are making money over the last 8I > quarters but it is nothing major.  A key data point to consider is thatsJ > Compaq management is under huge pressure to show results.  They point toF > profitability of the storage and services.  They do NOT point to theF > profitability of any of the server groups.  If Alpha servers were asH > profitable as some in this feel they are why isn't an embattled CompaqJ > management touting that when they are touting the profitability of other? > groups?  I suspect most folks will have one of two answers...w >CL > Possible answer #1) Each morning when Capellas, Blackmore, and Winkler flyJ > their black helicopters into their secret underground HQ in Houston they aremJ > told by Bill Gates and Andy Grove they can't say anything positive aboutF > OVMS or Alpha.  They all stand in front of two large screens and areK > instructed to keep this information secret at all costs.  It must be keptsG > secrete even if it means depressing the company stock and costing them2 > executives personally on their performance plan. >sI > Possible answer #2) Alpha servers aren't anywhere near as profitable asb some, > people keep repeating in this newsgroup...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:23:55 -0500t& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <u1av2ej5sedp38@corp.supernews.com>i  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messaget8 news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com... >n3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messaget+ > news:u19ogdjt0jcdd3@corp.supernews.com...a9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageh@ > > news:uz4R7.208554$8q.20250959@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...  L > > > > keep in mind that few large technology companies, and soon it may be	 > > none,iI > > > > are true believers in any given technology anymore - few, if any,9 are4 > > leftL > > > > that behave like Digital did in the 1980's.  Compaq is a creature of > > whatF > > > > the business is becoming.  They are a symptom and the cause... > > >aG > > > You obviously don't understand how DEC worked back when it worked: well.. > >rJ > > No that is your assumption as to what I was saying.  In the context of myL > > coment it was that Digital was loyal to technology paths way beyond what > weF > > are seeing today.  Re: below - no where did I suggest "one basket" > J > That certainly seems to be a reasonable interpretation of your statementI > still quoted above:  "keep in mind that few large technology companies,o andvK > soon it may be none, are true believers in any given technology anymore - C > few, if any, are left that behave like Digital did in the 1980's"s	 certainlynK > suggests that you're talking about a company believing in *a* ('any given F > technology' - singular) technology and suggesting that this was what > "Digital did in the 1980's".  K Is this Bill Todd or Bill Clinton - depends on what the meaning of "is" is.aB That is really thin.  Once again you went charging off claiming "IH _obviously_ don't understand how DEC worked" based upon your ASSUMPTIONSK which were based on what you felt was a reasonable interpretation of what Il said.m  H Before you attack someone based on your assumptions Bill the name of theL game is NOT are the assumptions one has drawn reasonable but instead are theK assumptions drawn the ONLY reasonable ones.  Far too often you never acceptg> that there OTHER reasonable interpretations that can be drawn.  J Clearly in the case above "one basket" is not the only interpretation thatK can be drawn from what I said.  It is truly intellectually dishonest of you K to come a try to justify attacking someone based on being able to construct H an non-exclusive reason interpretation. Other reasonable interpretations exist.  L > This is hardly the first time you've attempted to redefine your statementsI > ex post facto (not even the first in this post - see initial correctioneL > above).  It's not a competent way to carry on a discussion, and leaves oneI > wondering if it's intentional (in which case it's sleazy, an impressions onenD > assumes you would prefer not to give if it's merely a problem with) > sloppiness in wording and/or thinking).t  H The problem is you jumping to conclusions all time and knee jerk attacksL when something seems to be questioning anything you said.  What is clarifiedJ is false spin that is put on the comments of folks who question things youL have said.  What the problem results from is someone who no longer questionsI his assumptions and doesn't ask are there alternative assumptions one cans reasonably draw from this.  K Have you reached the point of arrogance that you can't acknowledge that thebJ reader can contribute to miscommunication?  I suspect for the sage Todd weL know the answer.  I love the way when you missed the point it was the way itJ was written and not allowing for the biases that were there in reading it.  K A classic example of knee jerk reactions being your comment in this postingrK that I was questioning OVMS's profitability when in fact I had never calledi4 it into question - I was only questioning its scale.  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messager! news:3c114ab0$1@news.toast.net... D > Something I have noticed in this newsgroup is people stating their	 _opinion_ J > about how profitable OVMS is to the point where it has become an article ofG > faith.  What is interesting is that data points exist to the contraryp (veryeJ > profitable) and to my knowledge Compaq does not provide the data to back upA > any claim.  The statement that caught my attention today was...  > J > "Can't remember about the larger (although I'm sure the $9B of VMS, UnixH > and Tandem put together get at least near to 50%) - more profitable is > an established fact. " >oF > Alpha and NSK servers are more profitable than ISSG servers as fact?I > Especially as it relates to 8-ways?  Where is the data to back this up?  >mJ > I do NOT claim that either case is true but my malarky detector goes offJ > each time I see this stated as fact.  Unfortunately I see a lot of POV'sL > based on the assumption that Alpha servers are this great source of profitK > that Compaq is throwing away.  While I am not claiming that Alpha servers L > are grossly unprofitable like the Access Group stuff I do wonder about theJ > profitability of the Intel, Alpha, and Hymilaya server groups.  Based onL > public information I suspect all 3 groups are making money over the last 8I > quarters but it is nothing major.  A key data point to consider is that-J > Compaq management is under huge pressure to show results.  They point toF > profitability of the storage and services.  They do NOT point to theF > profitability of any of the server groups.  If Alpha servers were asH > profitable as some in this feel they are why isn't an embattled CompaqJ > management touting that when they are touting the profitability of other? > groups?  I suspect most folks will have one of two answers...a >@L > Possible answer #1) Each morning when Capellas, Blackmore, and Winkler flyJ > their black helicopters into their secret underground HQ in Houston they areeJ > told by Bill Gates and Andy Grove they can't say anything positive aboutF > OVMS or Alpha.  They all stand in front of two large screens and areK > instructed to keep this information secret at all costs.  It must be keptnG > secrete even if it means depressing the company stock and costing the"2 > executives personally on their performance plan. >vI > Possible answer #2) Alpha servers aren't anywhere near as profitable asl some, > people keep repeating in this newsgroup...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:05:03 GMT,1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>w< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?' Message-ID: <3C158629.153D9E26@fsi.net>s   Jeff Killeen wrote:o > [snip]) > It if was so dramatically profitable inrJ > relation to the other server lines Compaq executives would be nuts to be, > hiding that fact from shareholders. [snip]  	 Um, Jeff?   E Many here would agree that of late, and 180 days or more back, CompaqeG Mgt. have been pulling shit that could easily be construed as insanity,'D or at the very least, inadvisable behavior of the highest order. So,F doing as you say ("Compaq executives would be nuts...") is entirely in character for them, no?o   -- o David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:37:52 GMTl# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?= Message-ID: <A4gR7.28357$pa1.11184476@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>n  G I know it's still on-line...what I was talking about was to shove it inp< people's faces as a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal.  I How many CEO's do you think troll through the Compaq web site looking for  success stories? Answer = zero.l  < How many read the Wall Street Journal? Answer = All of them.    6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:9v04jn$ep2$3@joe.rice.edu...t$ > John Smith (a@nonymous.com) wrote: > :a > : Marketing - creating demand ! > : -----------------------------yL > : Maybe some of you don't know about what happened at Credit Lyonnais (CL)L > : in Paris about 6 years ago. CL is a major French bank. It's primary dataJ > : center supporting their trading operations at head office burned down.L > : They were running openVMS clusters, shadowed to a backup site. They were" > : back in business the next day. >t# > That story is still available at:r >e >oK http://www.success-stories.digital.com/css/cgi-bin/cssextusr/s=display/i=30w$ >   Success Stories: Credit Lyonnais >   VMS Clusters' Trial By Firep >vB > That's a surprise, given the efforts to eliminate "digital.com". >0K > Ad sales are down for the next Super Bowl. Perhaps members of comp.os.vms I > who aren't unemployed can scrape up a collection for a VMS ad to run at1 > half-time. >1D > It could end with a large burly chap wearing a T-shirt that reads: >s% >   "Compaq: Wintel Cartel Marketing"  >B6 > silencing the speaker, who just gets out a question: >s: >   "Compaq stockholders, why has VMS been kept a secret?" >o >e6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:36:44 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?> Message-ID: <w3gR7.169025$YD.13296573@news2.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagep) news:u1av2ej5sedp38@corp.supernews.com...r   ...l  E > A classic example of knee jerk reactions being your comment in thist posting F > that I was questioning OVMS's profitability when in fact I had never called6 > it into question - I was only questioning its scale.  H So were you questioning Compaq's OVMS numbers stated in June, 2000 ($800I million annual profit on $4 billion annual revenue), or just saying those K numbers weren't particularly good compared with other Compaq endeavors (andf= if so please list them, along with their revenue and profit)?t  I Please try to answer this time:  it's at least the fourth time I've posed B the question and you've instead waffled and complained about being misunderstood.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:14:24 -0500d0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com># Subject: Re: LAT and DecNet phase Ve; Message-ID: <101220011514240307%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>e  B In article <1008009694.15962.0.nnrp-01.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk>,0 Chris Townley <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote:  M > I have set up a phase IV address, but only get invalid device errors when It > run LAT$SYSTARTUPg   Did you run LAT$STARTUP?  @ LAT doesn't care if you have DECnet Phase IV or -Plus installed.   Paul   -- s  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringr   Compaq Computer Corporatione   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:24:12 +0100 (MET)i9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>u# Subject: RE: LAT and DecNet phase Vo; Message-ID: <01KBPUC81G329138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h  O > > I have set up a phase IV address, but only get invalid device errors when Ia > > run LAT$SYSTARTUP  >  > Did you run LAT$STARTUP? > B > LAT doesn't care if you have DECnet Phase IV or -Plus installed.  A Actually, it doesn't care if one has DECnet installed at all.  I cG routinely use LAT (especially SET HOST/LAT) on a box with no DECnet at   all installed.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:13:22 GMTn" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl># Subject: Re: LAT and DecNet phase Ve0 Message-ID: <Sz9R7.546$8p1.2206@typhoon.bart.nl>  6 Did you run LAT$SYSTARTUP after you've started DECnet?B If you run phase V in phase iv compatibility mode then DECnet willG still attempt to write its physical address on the ethernet controller.a/ Which is already in use by LAT, hence an error.y   Hans  : Chris Townley <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message< news:1008009694.15962.0.nnrp-01.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk...G > Maybe I am being a bit stupid, but how do I get LAT running a phase V  alpha. >lJ > Standalone DEC PSW 433AU running VMS 7.3 hobbyist, with DECNET plus, and# > TCPIP 5.1 installed from scratch.n >nK > I have set up a phase IV address, but only get invalid device errors when  I  > run LAT$SYSTARTUP  >mJ > I have searched the FAQ and the Docs, but cannot find the relevant bits.8 > Could somebody please point me in the right direction. >e > TIAa >  > -- > Chris Townleye > chris@townleyc.demon.co.uk > townleyc@spicers.ltd.uk7 >@ >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:12:20 -0000v= From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@spitfire0.demon.co.uk>V# Subject: Re: LAT and DecNet phase V B Message-ID: <1008025963.18821.0.nnrp-08.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  I That's actually LAT$STARTUP not LAT$SYSTARTUP. LAT$SYSTARTUP is where the  customisations should be done.  9 Do you have multiple adapters? Is the link layer defined?'    What is the output of show node?   -- David McKenzie Charon Consulting (Australia)r( david.mckenzie@mig.spitfire0.demon.co.uk   (But who wants a Mig?)   !c- "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in messageh* news:Sz9R7.546$8p1.2206@typhoon.bart.nl...8 > Did you run LAT$SYSTARTUP after you've started DECnet?D > If you run phase V in phase iv compatibility mode then DECnet willI > still attempt to write its physical address on the ethernet controller.v1 > Which is already in use by LAT, hence an error.i >t > Hans >o< > Chris Townley <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message> > news:1008009694.15962.0.nnrp-01.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk...I > > Maybe I am being a bit stupid, but how do I get LAT running a phase V< > alpha. > >>L > > Standalone DEC PSW 433AU running VMS 7.3 hobbyist, with DECNET plus, and% > > TCPIP 5.1 installed from scratch.g > >rH > > I have set up a phase IV address, but only get invalid device errors when > Ic > > run LAT$SYSTARTUPi > >eL > > I have searched the FAQ and the Docs, but cannot find the relevant bits.: > > Could somebody please point me in the right direction. > >n > > TIA  > >t > > -- > > Chris Townleyn > > chris@townleyc.demon.co.uk > > townleyc@spicers.ltd.ukl > >h > >s >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:50:29 -0000e1 From: "Chris Townley" <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk>h# Subject: Re: LAT and DecNet phase V B Message-ID: <1008035471.28082.0.nnrp-01.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk>   Thanks for that!  + I said I might be being stupid - and I was.r  L Ran LAT$STARTUP, and all OK. I think what confused me was that ISTR phase IVG startup put that into SYSTARTUP_VMS when I last set that up. Ended justt thinking to run LAT$SYSTARTUPo     Regardst     -- Chris = "Paul Anderson" <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> wrote in message 5 news:101220011514240307%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com...ID > In article <1008009694.15962.0.nnrp-01.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk>,2 > Chris Townley <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote: >eH > > I have set up a phase IV address, but only get invalid device errors when I > > run LAT$SYSTARTUPo >n > Did you run LAT$STARTUP? >mB > LAT doesn't care if you have DECnet Phase IV or -Plus installed. >l > Paul >s > -- >  Paul Anderson >   OpenVMS Engineering  >   Compaq Computer Corporationr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:42:00 GMTy1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>uC Subject: Re: Looking for .CLD files for some standard VMS  commands ' Message-ID: <3C1580C2.1E787E77@fsi.net>o   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:a >  > Piet Timmers wrote:  >  > > Hi all,r > >dO > > I wonder if there is sombody outhere that can help me to the .CLD files foroH > > the standard VMS commands DIRECTORY, PURGE, DELETE etc. Any would be > > appreciated. > J > The .CLD files that are used to build the OpenVMS supplied DCLTABLES areI > different based on what version of OpenVMS you are running and possiblyt5 > what layered products that you have on your system.t > H > Changing them is very risky, and your changes may need to be reappliedH > after ECO kits and software upgrades.  And before reapplying them, you? > must apply your changes to the then current .CLD definitions.- >  > Can you let us know what the real problem is?  Are you trying to enhance them, or do you have a damaged installation and are trying to repair it?  >  > The version of OpenVMS, the architecture, and specifically all layered products and ECO kits installed on the system can be very important to give you any usefull information.e  D I'm hoping he's taking up the idea to write freeware versions of theE command programs for the revived FreeVMS project. Thus, he would needhA the .CLDs so the correct calls to the CLI$ routines can be coded.    <MUSIC>e Beautiful dreamer, ... </MUSIC>  H If anyone has a VAX distribution of VMS, the .CLDs are in the .A saveset of the VMSINSTALlable distro.f   -- a David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:00:04 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)- Subject: Re: manuals (was Linus' view on VMS)w; Message-ID: <3c152254.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>h  ) Paul Sture (paul.sture@bluewin.ch) wrote:b > Martin Vorlaender wrote:C > > Go for it! ;-) No - wait for the next release... real soon now.h >cK > Do you anticipate problems with the current release? I could have used ituH > on Friday when digging around the TCP/IP docs. I pointed Bookreader at* > some older CDs only to see it ACCVIO :-(  I No problems. There was a security concern with the search program (had totI do with giving out too much information about the file system structure),cM and in the course of fixing it (using a snapshot from the 3.1.6 development),sJ I came across some new features & bugfixes. In all my testing, it has been pretty stable and performant.   < Besides, you'd want a pretty PCSI release, wouldn't you? ;-)  L > > I have knowledge of a Compaq Customer Services department that does thisH > > already. Nice test for ht://Dig: a slightly modified version took 16I > > minutes on a TurboLaser (with access to the docs via the filesystem).e >n  > 16 minutes to do the indexing?  < 16 minutes for doing a search would be a pretty bad value...I Yes, 16 minutes for the indexing of 1574 documents, yielding 55100 words.t  G And 51 minutes for the 11017 documents of the source listings, yieldingb
 964500 words.a  G Mind you, this is a thing done _once_. On subsequent runs over the same E set of documents, ht://Dig can work incrementally. Of course, given a H "website" that doesn't change like the OpenVMS documentation, this won't be necessary at all.  @ > It's probably worth mentioning at this point that I've had the> > documentation placed on the filesystem, both at home and at C > work, for quite a while now - it's sooo much faster than the CDs.i  @ Even from CD, it should be faster than getting it by a webserver" (excluding the RRD42, perhaps ;-).   cu,f   Martin -- aA                      | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmero. Microsoft's answer   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deA to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/y5 Windows NT 10.0.     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.des   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:34:35 GMTiG From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>n1 Subject: Re: manuals (was RE: Linus' view on VMS)s6 Message-ID: <v%8R7.56521$xS6.91666@www.newsranger.com>  O On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:01:36 GMT, in article <4f3R7.2629$_3.10335@news.iol.ie>,  Tom Wade wrote:t >pI >I've got to disagree with you.  I *hate* PDF, and this has nothing to dotM >with its support of VMS, as I use a Microsoft desktop anyway.  What I deteste >about >PDF is:  H I prefer the PDF format, I find it is far better and readable than HTML.I I also really dislike having the VMS HTML documentation go onto differentoF pages in the middle of a chapter (so you can't just do one search in aN chapter) and it's annoying when a chapter starts in the middle of a HTML page.   >nH >1.  Try to get a whole page on the screen, and the print is unreadable.  L What screen size are you using ? At home, it's 1024x768 which is a bit smallK for a page, but still readable. At work, it's 1280x1024 which displays justh fine.h  J >2.  Everything always comes with US Letter size rather than A4 (5% of the: >world's population lives in countries that don't use A4).  G I never realised it was in US Letter size. Having just printed a bit ofnH the 7.3 PDF documentation this weekend (and discovered as a result _yet_H more useful, but poorly documented, device driver routines...) all I didG was use scale to fit which I do automatically with every PDF I print so # I never realised that it wasn't A4.p  H >5.  If a large document is hosted as 'online documentation' at a remoteH >site, I have to download the entire thing even if I only want to browse >through a small portion of it.   G That one I agree with, but OTOH I generally know that the manual I want ? is the correct one and I store it locally for future reference.r   >oK >HTML is far better in my opinion.  The only thing that is easier in PDF is K >to print out the whole thing, and if people are using that option a lot itoK >says a lot about the ease of use of PDF as an *online* medium (it would bepI >better to provide a postscript version for people who want to print it).o >   H I don't think that printing it out is anything to do with PDF. I find itH easier to learn from printed material, and use online documentation justK for reference purposes, when I already understand the general subject area; J I get along just fine with PDF when using it as online reference material.  D Besides, the problem with providing a postscript version is that PDFI documents can be printed on a wider range of printers. If I want to printoH a postscript document on an inkjet, I have to use ghostscript. You wouldD also need a postscript version of Acrobat Reader to select pages forE printing, so you have to look at the postscript file online anyway to  decide what to print.o   Simon.   -- a@ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aeE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.v   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:50:15 GMTs" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Need help with MLUh9 Message-ID: <Xns91738295D8BF1falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>e  C Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in news:7DEC01.21380446- @feda01.fed.ornl.gov:   < > In a previous article, Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:D >> I'm trying to set up MLU (Media Loader Utility) from the Freeware >> CD's.& >>          VMS 7.2 on Alphaserver 8002 >>          TZ875 minilibrary, connected as MKB500 >>  = >> The MLU$STARTUP procedure includes a line that executes asvE >>          $mcr sysman io connect mkb501:/noadap/driver=sys$gkdriver % >> this returns the following messaget3 >>          %NODERR, error returned from node MIMASv+ >>          %NOMSG, Message number 00002DF2t >>  ? >> Anyone know what this means and if there is any cure for it?i > ! > That message number equates to:m > G >   %SYSTEM-E-WRONGDRV, different device driver already loaded for this  >   device type name > J > I think you want to create a gkb501 device instead of the mkb501 device.J > IIRC, the gk device is the "robot" while the mk device is the tape drive	 > itself.u  L Well that does clear up the error message, but MLU doesn't recognize gkb501 K as a loader.  (I have been using the TZ875 quite effectively with just its 1M default behaviour.  However, software that understands the loader would have l been nice.)s  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca w@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roadf1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadar http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4@  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------   Date: 10 DEC 2001 21:58:05 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>o Subject: Re: Need help with MLUn2 Message-ID: <10DEC01.21580530@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  : In a previous article, Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:E > Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in news:7DEC01.21380446  > @feda01.fed.ornl.gov:  >  e> > > In a previous article, Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:F > >> I'm trying to set up MLU (Media Loader Utility) from the Freeware
 > >> CD's.( > >>          VMS 7.2 on Alphaserver 8004 > >>          TZ875 minilibrary, connected as MKB500 > >>  ? > >> The MLU$STARTUP procedure includes a line that executes asrG > >>          $mcr sysman io connect mkb501:/noadap/driver=sys$gkdriverr' > >> this returns the following message 5 > >>          %NODERR, error returned from node MIMASV- > >>          %NOMSG, Message number 00002DF2e > >>  A > >> Anyone know what this means and if there is any cure for it?W > > # > > That message number equates to:h > > I > >   %SYSTEM-E-WRONGDRV, different device driver already loaded for thisM > >   device type name > > L > > I think you want to create a gkb501 device instead of the mkb501 device.L > > IIRC, the gk device is the "robot" while the mk device is the tape drive > > itself.. >   N > Well that does clear up the error message, but MLU doesn't recognize gkb501 M > as a loader.  (I have been using the TZ875 quite effectively with just its >O > default behaviour.  However, software that understands the loader would have s
 > been nice.)k  F I don't know when the TZ875 showed up, but the last development on MLUE was done in 1994.  I tried to use MLU in 1995 to talk to my TLZ7L andtG eventually gave up.  I bought MRU (Media Robot Utilities) instead which F works fine for me.  I see that TZ875 is not listed among the supported) devices for MLU but it is listed for MRU.n   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVnH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2001 01:18:28 GMT' From: dashw459@aol.comeatspam (Doug W.)eQ Subject: Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - you are invited-9 Message-ID: <20011210201828.18482.00002980@mb-cg.aol.com>A   << "Sue Skonetski >> wrote    2 << Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - you are invited >>     << 0> If you attended this meeting last week, what did you think? >>  ' Lots of things.  In no various order...k  K 1.)  A lot of material was squeezewd into 2 hours.  Unfortunately there was N only time for 10 minutes of questions.  No questions were difficult to answer.  N 2.) I am guessing 70 people attended.  A bigger bathroom would have been nice.  N 3.) I enjoyed coming into contact with other VMS users.  In a business climateM that stresses quick layoffs it was comforting to see institutions still using:D VMS.  For those seeking employment in the NYC area some of the firmsJ represented at the LUG included SIAC, Credit Lyonais, Chase, City Bank, JPK Morgan, AP, Reuters and the Department of Corrections.  There were probably G more firms, but this was all I managed to see.  Perhaps a list could be 
 published?  K 4.) Chris Brown and Gaitan D'Antoni were interesting and capable speakers. .I They did say things that would drive this newsgroup wild.  They both weretN familiar with trends in COMP.OS.VMS.  The Alpha EOL was presented from more ofI a business standpoint than a technical justification.  Illustrations wereMH provided that showed Compaq switching emphasis from hardware to businessN solutions.  It was an upbeat meeting and Compaq seemed sincere.  However, I doK recall Gaitan stating "IPF would attain EV8 performance levels in 2004."  ImL wanted to jump up shouting show me the evidence, but I just did not have theB heart to do it to him.  He's just too pleasant, I know its not me.  K 5.) I learned both Compaq and Intel compilers were on the roadmap and there0O would be an Ada compiler provided (whatever that means).  I was concerned aboutiO the compilers and received some of the answers that have been recently given inUJ this newgroup.  I did not manage to ask if NUMA aware compilers were beingK planned or if Intel had any interest in such compiler features.  I was leftcM with the impression that Compaq compilers were a short term intermediate step   until Intel compilers took over.  I 6.) Some of the users I spoke with  plan to leave VMS.  Some will be gone  before IPF is available.  L 7.) Compaq is trying to revive the LUGs.  A backpack and 2 shirts were givenO out.  Sadly I did not win a shirt and my wardrobe really could use one.  It wasnF nice to see Compaq take an interest in promoting VMS and encouraging a
 community.  E 8.) It was good to see JAVA mentioned as a business solution VMS tookt
 seriously.  ? Thats all I remember, but I don't have my notes in front of me.s   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:13:52 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)aB Subject: Re: Packard Foundation Tells Merger Urgers to "Paq it In"3 Message-ID: <kSZksVEx2v5M@eisner.encompasserve.org>H  e In article <TFNQ7.22360$ER5.280578@rwcrnsc52>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:A > 3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagea+ > news:u12pe7q8mfa2f3@corp.supernews.com...eK >> HP and Compaq have a steep uphill road.  Between the 2 families about 17lM >> percent of the stock is under their control.  Add miscellaneous shares whoiM >> have said they will vote no that means that about 20 percent of shares are.M >> on record as saying they will vote no.  That means HP/CPQ need to get 62.5hL >> percent of the remaining shares to vote yes.  That is going to be hard to >> do...  ? Do they only need 62.5% (i.e. a 51% majority) or does it take arJ supermajority of shares to pass the merger? They would need 83% of the nonB family controlled stock to get the more typical 2/3 supermajority.  L And if this is the same terms as in the DEC/COMPAQ deal it's not only 2/3 ofI the stock voted, but 2/3 of the stock outstanding. Not voting your shares H counts as a vote AGAINST the merger. Nearly 30% of the DEC stock was notH voted in that merger deal. While the vote was 98% for and 2% against the) merger, the deal only passed by about 3%.r  B         They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little?         temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. --eA         Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759a  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamya4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:31:27 +0100A1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>nB Subject: Re: Packard Foundation Tells Merger Urgers to "Paq it In"4 Message-ID: <3C1529AE.67C0AB4@swissonline.delete.ch>   Bob Kaplow wrote:0 > g > In article <TFNQ7.22360$ER5.280578@rwcrnsc52>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:u > >h5 > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagen- > > news:u12pe7q8mfa2f3@corp.supernews.com...AM > >> HP and Compaq have a steep uphill road.  Between the 2 families about 17eO > >> percent of the stock is under their control.  Add miscellaneous shares whoCO > >> have said they will vote no that means that about 20 percent of shares are0O > >> on record as saying they will vote no.  That means HP/CPQ need to get 62.5oN > >> percent of the remaining shares to vote yes.  That is going to be hard to
 > >> do... > A > Do they only need 62.5% (i.e. a 51% majority) or does it take aiL > supermajority of shares to pass the merger? They would need 83% of the nonD > family controlled stock to get the more typical 2/3 supermajority. > N > And if this is the same terms as in the DEC/COMPAQ deal it's not only 2/3 ofK > the stock voted, but 2/3 of the stock outstanding. Not voting your sharesVJ > counts as a vote AGAINST the merger. Nearly 30% of the DEC stock was notJ > voted in that merger deal. While the vote was 98% for and 2% against the+ > merger, the deal only passed by about 3%.   D The documents say that they must get "a majority" then go on to talkG about non-votes and such, and how these should be counted/discounted inr2 terms of reaching the 50% of all *possible* votes.  G If you really need the info in more detail, please let me know and I'll $ cut and paste from the SEC document.     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:01:15 +0100y1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> - Subject: Re: Proxy vote for merger assume Yese5 Message-ID: <3C15067B.1D5571D9@swissonline.delete.ch>F   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K > Uh.  I think that the proxy can only be voted if returned.  If it doesn't N > specify which way to vote, then this spells out the default.  I believe thatN > a unreturned proxy is effectively a no vote in the Compaq case - since it isM > a non-yes vote, where a majority of the outstanding shares need to be votedr > for in the affirmative.t > B > David Mathog wrote in message <3C10EB7A.A891670E@caltech.edu>... > >John McLean wrote:0 > >>= > >> Just a note for anyone who might be making a proxy vote.c > >>F > >> From documents filed at SEC by HP, we find the "Form of Proxy for) > >> Compaq".  In this document it statesl > >>M > >> THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED AS SPECIFIED. IF NO SPECIFICATION IS MADE, THISfD > >> PROXY WILL BE VOTED "FOR" THE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE AND ADOPT THEH > >> AGREEMENT AND PLAN OF REORGANIZATION AMONG HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY,A > >> HELOISE MERGER CORPORATION AND COMPAQ AND APPROVE THE MERGERs > >> CONTEMPLATED THEREBY. > >pE > >That's one of my pet peeves about the way the SEC in the US allows - > >companies to operate.  This type of clausehG > >is pretty much standard and it stacks the decks mightily in favor ofhF > >what the company wants since it lets the Board effectively vote theE > >shares of anybody who was not sufficiently motivated to vote their C > >proxy. Conversely a shareholder initiative contrary to the BOD's . > >preference will _NEVER_ have this property.K > >I suggest that everybody who dislikes this rule fire off a letter to thei > >SE. In the wake of the ENRONnG > >debacle they may be in the mood to consider changing this rule.  (OfnG > >course, expect the "masters of the universe" to fight such a change,tD > >towards fairness and democratic decision making, tooth and nail.) > >g > >0 > >Regards,n > >m > >David Mathog0 > >mathog@caltech.edur     David,  B From the joint SEC filing (page 35) it looks like you are saved by Delaware law !  D ...Approval and adoption of the merger agreement and approval of theH merger will require the affirmative vote of the holders of a majority ofG the shares of Compaq common stock outstanding on the record date. UndergC applicable Delaware law, for the purpose of determining whether theyB proposal to approve and adopt the merger agreement and approve the( merger has received the requisite numberC of affirmative votes, abstentions will be counted and have the sameeE effect as a vote "against" the proposal. In addition, failing to voter= will have the same effect as a vote "against" the proposal...|     John McL   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:56:04 -0000v= From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@spitfire0.demon.co.uk>-) Subject: Re: tubes (was: RE: DEC is DEAD)1B Message-ID: <1008028587.19960.0.nnrp-08.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>   RADAR?  K You do mean RDF don't you? RADAR was much later and American expression :-)g   -- David McKenzie Charon Consulting (Australia)n( david.mckenzie@mig.spitfire0.demon.co.uk   (But who wants a Mig?)   !i/ "John Nebel" <nebel@csdco.com> wrote in message ? news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0112040708090.481-100000@athena.csdco.com...u >r >fB > Magnetron tubes are used in microwave ovens, RADAR, and land and# > space (satellite) communications.I >n > John Nebel >r >d, > On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >gK > > In fact, many prized guitars (like old Fender Stratocasters) are prizedtB > > because of their hand-wound pickups, which over time warped in
 mysterious+ > > ways to provide unique sound qualities.n > > 1 > > _Fred (yeah, I once pretended to play guitar)n > >u > >a# > > Phillip Helbig wrote in messageg6 > > <01KBFVFNP0369125K1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...L > > >> Most (probably more than 99%) of televisions still have at least one.J > > >> As do a very high percentage of computers for the very same reason. :-)r > > >pI > > >One area where tubes are still preferred to transistors is in guitarnL > > >amplifiers.  The idea here is NOT high-fidelity; the tubes and speakersJ > > >contribute substantially to the sound.  (Specifically, the non-linearL > > >effects of the tubes when overdriven leads to a "soft" distorted sound,K > > >and the typical speakers act as low-pass filters, which is why even in G > > >the studio the sound going into the mixing desk often comes from a K > > >microphone placed in front of a speaker, rather then directly from therJ > > >amplifier or even the guitar itself (perhaps after a pre-amp), thoughH > > >this is not uncommon for bass guitars, where most amps and speakers+ > > >contribute less to the sound quality.)e > >m > >n > >  >  >y >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:50:43 -0000a3 From: "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> ( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?. Message-ID: <9v305s$9ic$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>  > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message% news:9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...  [...]f= > What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.o= > Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way tot; > do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer toF > that is "hire a VMS guru".I ISTR some sort of HELP searching freeware that can do that... I had it atiJ one time. Well, it isn't context-based; it searches the whole lot. ProblemJ is AFAIK VMS Help doesn't have a directive to say "This is the descriptionL for this help topic...". You can guess that the first few lines are what you want, but it's only a guess...  4 Someone else will pipe up and say what it is/was ;-)  K However, it's one of those things that SHOULD be there. Another one for the. wishlist...    -Malcolm   >m > bill >s > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:12:06 -0800a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r( Subject: RE: Unix for HELP ... Examples?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHDDLAA.tom@kednos.com>c   > -----Original Message-----: > From: Malcolm [mailto:malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk]* > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:51 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,* > Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples? >p >e >e@ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message' > news:9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...  > [...]e? > > What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command. ? > > Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way to>= > > do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer to  > > that is "hire a VMS guru".K > ISTR some sort of HELP searching freeware that can do that... I had it atdL > one time. Well, it isn't context-based; it searches the whole lot. ProblemL > is AFAIK VMS Help doesn't have a directive to say "This is the descriptionA > for this help topic...". You can guess that the first few linese > are what you  > want, but it's only a guess... >b6 > Someone else will pipe up and say what it is/was ;-) >cA > However, it's one of those things that SHOULD be there. Anotheru
 > one for thel
 > wishlist...e   'locate' would be nice too ... >-
 > -Malcolm >- > >- > > bill > >- > > --@ > > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. > Three wolvesH > > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > > University of Scranton   |B > > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >6 >E   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:19:02 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)G( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <Y2fqeAJb0Job@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  d In article <9v305s$9ic$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> writes: > @ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message' > news:9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu..., > [...]a> >> What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.> >> Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way to< >> do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer to >> that is "hire a VMS guru".TK > ISTR some sort of HELP searching freeware that can do that... I had it atrL > one time. Well, it isn't context-based; it searches the whole lot. ProblemL > is AFAIK VMS Help doesn't have a directive to say "This is the descriptionN > for this help topic...". You can guess that the first few lines are what you  > want, but it's only a guess... > 6 > Someone else will pipe up and say what it is/was ;-)  B But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation ofF "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology.  ' Come on, you people should know better.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:59:39 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <hIiCRW5fsJJC@eisner.encompasserve.org>T  _ In article <9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:e= > What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.Z= > Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way to4; > do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer tou > that is "hire a VMS guru".  I  help hints is generally sufficient.  In a few minutes my kid figured out D  that he already knew English.  delete is apropos delete and edit is  apropos edit.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 15:05:26 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)I( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <u4TEHI7F+5ji@eisner.encompasserve.org>T  _ In article <9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > = > What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.9= > Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way tog; > do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer tot > that is "hire a VMS guru".      Great example!>  ?    First thing I learned from a UNIX guru was to use apropos oni8    BSD.  Now just how would I have found that on my own?  @    And then I had to stumble around the man man page for a while>    on my first SVID system to find out it spells "apropos" as     m-a-n-space-dash-k.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:12:25 -0600e0 From: Patrick Spinler <spinler.patrick@mayo.edu>( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?( Message-ID: <3C152539.F6552EE3@mayo.edu>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > D > But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation ofH > "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology.  
 $ man aproposs (snip)A        apropos  searches a set of database files containing short A        descriptions of system commands for keywords and  displayss)        the result on the standard output.d (snip) $ man whatis (snip)A        whatis  searches  a set of database files containing shortaA        descriptions of system commands for keywords and  displayssA        the  result  on  the  standard output.  Only complete wordh        matches are displayed.u (snip), $ man locate		# since someone mentioned this (snip)@        Locate provides a way to index and quickly search entire ,        filesystems for files on your system. (snip)    An example (with much snippage):   $ man -k directory e< basename    (1)  - strip directory and suffix from filenames9 chroot      (1)  - run command or interactive shell with e)                    special root directory * dir         (1)  - list directory contents< dirname     (1)  - strip non-directory suffix from file name                    directory< find        (1)  - search for files in a directory hierarchy* ls          (1)  - list directory contents  H More recently, the GNU project has been putting out documentation in theH "info" format, which is easily browsed in a manner perhaps slightly more% familiar to VMS users.  ("$info ...")h   Hope this helpsh -- Pat   --  ?       This message does not represent the policies or positionsi1 	     of the Mayo Foundation or its subsidiaries.t3   Patrick Spinler			email:	Spinler.Patrick@Mayo.EDUy'   Mayo Foundation			phone:	507/284-9485    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 15:43:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <p0l7SBxcsO6C@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3C152539.F6552EE3@mayo.edu>, Patrick Spinler <spinler.patrick@mayo.edu> writes:r > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> vE >> But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation ofUI >> "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology.  >  > $ man apropos2 > (snip)C >        apropos  searches a set of database files containing shortsC >        descriptions of system commands for keywords and  displaysu+ >        the result on the standard output.n  @ I suppose one could extract the contents of the VMS Help Library> into a text file for searching, but I find the Master Index to= be more effective.  Effective with V7.3 it is available againt, in machine readable format, but only in PDF.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:54:05 -0500e+ From: Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> ( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?' Message-ID: <3C152EFD.EB528D72@uml.edu>r   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3C152539.F6552EE3@mayo.edu>, Patrick Spinler <spinler.patrick@mayo.edu> writes:t > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>G > >> But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation of K > >> "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology.a > >  > > $ man aproposA
 > > (snip)E > >        apropos  searches a set of database files containing shortiE > >        descriptions of system commands for keywords and  displaysd- > >        the result on the standard output.  > B > I suppose one could extract the contents of the VMS Help Library@ > into a text file for searching, but I find the Master Index to? > be more effective.  Effective with V7.3 it is available again . > in machine readable format, but only in PDF.  A There is a program which does a VMS "search" on binaries.  I, and  others,eA set this up in login.com to indeed be named apropos, and the Helpt? Library to be the binary file it searched.  It worked well, buta< slow because it had to search a big file.    (I have not had< access to VMS for a couple of years, so cannot give you more	 details.)2 --? Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell,  W1LPGi   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:44:19 GMTs) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) ( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?1 Message-ID: <3c15481a.694363411@news.wcc.govt.nz>r  F On 10 Dec 2001 15:05:26 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  ` >In article <9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> n> >> What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.> >> Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way to< >> do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer to >> that is "hire a VMS guru".e >r >   Great example! >f@ >   First thing I learned from a UNIX guru was to use apropos on9 >   BSD.  Now just how would I have found that on my own?  >/A >   And then I had to stumble around the man man page for a while ? >   on my first SVID system to find out it spells "apropos" as A >   m-a-n-space-dash-k.0 >f  C And, once you've figured that man displays your subject you're then D flummoxed by how the hell to get out of man. Oh yes, you hit "q" how remiss of me not to know that.  = And as the poor poster asked, well no, many pages do not haveuC examples. I guess they vary depending on the flavour of unix you're  running.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:27:05 +0000 (UTC)m From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?+ Message-ID: <9v3jsp$8mj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   c In article <p0l7SBxcsO6C@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e\ >In article <3C152539.F6552EE3@mayo.edu>, Patrick Spinler <spinler.patrick@mayo.edu> writes: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:a >>> F >>> But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation ofJ >>> "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology. >> y >> $ man apropos	 >> (snip)tD >>        apropos  searches a set of database files containing shortD >>        descriptions of system commands for keywords and  displays, >>        the result on the standard output. >7A >I suppose one could extract the contents of the VMS Help Libraryf! >into a text file for searching, x  J You can use the public domain LIBSEARCH program to search the help library (or other libraries).    From the AAAREADME file :-  J LIBSEARCH is a program which does just about everything the SEARCH commandI does, but for libraries. LIBSEARCH has a number of uses particular to itsE' abilities to search libraries, such as:O  A Finding which HELP subject contains info on the keyword you want; 0 Finding which macro defines the symbol you want;L Finding which Include module from FORSYSDEF.TLB contains the definitions you want;  Poking around in general.    From the help file examples :-  
   Examples    ;        1. $ LIBSEARCH/HELP SYS$HELP:HELPLIB/WINDOW=0 comparn  I     This command searches the system help library to find all help topicsoE     which refer to compar (in order to find references to compare andsI     comparison, for instance.) By specifying /WINDOW=0 only the topic andv=     subtopic names appear, without the actual matching lines.   :        2. $ LIBSEARCH/text SYS$LIBRARY:FORSYSDEF FAB/exact  L     This command searches FORSYSDEF.TLB, the system include file for FORTRANL     programmers, to find which module or modules reference FABs. By specify-K     ing /EXACT, only matches involving actual definitions or references are -     likely to be found, rather than comments.a   >but I find the Master Index toj> >be more effective.  Effective with V7.3 it is available again- >in machine readable format, but only in PDF.g        
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2001 18:49:08 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)> Subject: US Apache Linux sites hacked - better get on VMS now!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112101849.48fac215@posting.google.com>e  E linux fails hackability test ... only VMS remains standing ... bettert+ be on VMS or watch your company go offline!f  E  'MUJIHADEEN' HACKERS TAKE OUT US GOVERNMENT SITES  December 2, 2001 l   F  Newsbytes reports: &#8220;Two Web sites operated by the United StatesE government were attacked Thursday by a group that threatened violencevC against Americans. The hackers vandalized the home page of the NOAAjF Office of High Performance Computing and Communications, as well a WebD server operated by the National Institute of Health's National HumanC Genome Research Institute, according to a mirror of the defacementscF captured by the Alldas defacement archive. Both defaced pages bore the= flag of Saudi Arabia and contained titles that read, in Urdu,sF &#8216;Allah is the greatest of all.&#8217; At the bottom of the pages@ was a sentence that read in Urdu &#8216;Americans be prepared toD die.&#8217; The hackers did not identify the name of their group butE signed the pages &#8216;anonymous.&#8217; Officials from the two U.S. B organizations were not immediately available for comment. Both WebF sites, which were running the Apache Web server on the Linux operatingC system, were unreachable today. In the message at the NIH site, the ? attackers called themselves &#8216;mujihadeens&#8217; and wroteaC &#8216;we are not hacker, we are just cyberterrorist.&#8217; On thevB NOAA site, the group threatened &#8216;the greatest cyberterrorist7 attack against American government&#8217;&#8230;&#8221;i   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.687 ************************