1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 11 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 688       Contents:P Ada on VMS/IA64, was: Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - y$ Re: Alpha vs. Itanic:  facts vs. FUD> Re: ANNOUNCE: TechuDoc Now Available for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha# Re: Apache & protecting OSU scripts  Re: Compaq after merger-failure   Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target Compaq to can OpenVMS ?  Re: Compaq to can OpenVMS ?  Re: Compaq to can OpenVMS ?  Compaq without the merger  Re: Compaq without the merger  Re: Compaq without the merger  Re: Compaq without the merger  Re: Crash Notification" Re: DCPS stopped, inactive problem Re: DEC is DEAD  Re: DECUS Switzerland: ok  Re: DECUS Switzerland? Re: DECUS Switzerland? Re: DECUS Switzerland? Re: disk shadowing Re: disk shadowing. Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)* Re: EDT limits (was: RECALL does not work) Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: ftp problem  Re: gnu tar for VMS " Re: HP Foundations - let them know" Re: HP Foundations - let them know Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? 3 Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact? : Re: Looking for .CLD files for some standard VMS  commands7 MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ... ; Re: MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ... ' Re: Modifying ownership of INDEXF.SYS ?  Rdb ??
 Re: Rdb ??
 Re: Rdb ??
 Re: Rdb ??5 Re: Tru64.org Flash Poll on Merger "Pearl Harbor Day" 5 Re: Tru64.org Flash Poll on Merger "Pearl Harbor Day"  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?  Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples? : re:  US Apache Linux sites hacked - better get on VMS now! Working Set Size display? Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions ? Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions ? Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions ? Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:24:33 GMT G From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> Y Subject: Ada on VMS/IA64, was: Re: New York City meeting - Porting OpenVMS to Itanium - y 6 Message-ID: <BGoR7.57390$xS6.92627@www.newsranger.com>  ' On 11 Dec 2001 01:18:28 GMT, in article = <20011210201828.18482.00002980@mb-cg.aol.com>, Doug W. wrote:  > L >5.) I learned both Compaq and Intel compilers were on the roadmap and there9 >would be an Ada compiler provided (whatever that means).   J There is an issue with just which Ada compilers will be available on IA64.  F Apologies if you already know the following, but "whatever that means" indicates that you may not:   G There are two Ada standards, the original Ada 83, and the later Ada 95.   G CPQ's Ada (Compaq Ada, aka, DEC Ada) compiler is basically Ada 83. When H Ada 95 came out, DEC signed an agreement with Ada Core Technologies, whoG produce a GPLed Ada 95 compiler called GNAT, to port GNAT to VMS, which 	 they did.   4 However, DEC also kept DEC Ada running on the Alpha.  K The problem is that there is a big question mark about if CPQ will now port J Compaq Ada to IA64, or require Ada users to switch to GNAT. Various peopleL are getting different answers from different people, with the initial answerK that it was not to be ported, but later statements saying that yes it will.   I The problem is that because of the nature of Ada projects, switching to a I different compiler would generally be considered to be a big issue, so if G CPQ Ada is not ported to IA64, then that decision is likely to _really_  upset a lot of people.  G [Note: My interest in Ada is not work related, so I just use the public G versions of GNAT for various operating systems, hence I am not aware of . what the current official answer is from CPQ.]   Simon.   --  @ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered a E truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2001 13:59:27 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - Subject: Re: Alpha vs. Itanic:  facts vs. FUD , Message-ID: <9v53fv$1ma0$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <$Ao12IyhZOMC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:b |> In article <9v2s5f$hnu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:M |> > You've never seen any of the old IBM boxes with the 8" floppy cassettes, L |> > have you??  Even here in the early days secretaries religiously (no punL |> > intended) ran FastBack with it's box of 70-80 floppies every day.  LikeL |> > I said, given the technology of the day, floppies worked.  Even I stillI |> > have boxes of 5.25" backup sets gathering dust in the attic. (Yes, I O |> > actually found two of them while looking for some old pictures last week.)  |>  H |>   I could use a box of 5 1/2 for my Pro 350.  Especially ones without
 |>   rings.     J Hit a hamfest or computerfest.  I still see brand new boxes of 5.25" disksJ being sold.  No, wait.  I just looked on Pricewatch and they list a couple: of places still selling IBM and Maxell 5.25" floppy disks.  E |>           Is IBM 8 1/2 floppy "cassette" different from the single   |>   floppy RX01 on my 11/780's?  G Now I know you have never seen a System/34!!  The cassette I am talking E about is a plastic box that you insert standard 8" floppy disks into. I Then, just like tha DAT autochanger on my Alpha, it automatically changes K disks as it fills them allowing unattended backups to be done in the middle I of the night.  The technology existed, it was the attitude that kept most K PC users from doing decent backups. (I saw my first 9-track on a PC running C DOS on an 8088.  It was slow and very expensive, but it did exist.)    |>  J |>   I once refused to backup a UNIX system because it had 2 2GB disks and6 |>   a 75MB TK50.  14 tapes, I forget how many hours.   G I can see that.  Depending on media and the utility used, it might also  have been futile.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:23:28 +0300 4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>G Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: TechuDoc Now Available for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha 0 Message-ID: <3C15D090.458BAE9E@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>  , What about of compatibility with SDML tags ?   info@techudoc.com wrote: > 8 >   TechuDoc is now available for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha. > ' >   Please see: http://www.techudoc.com 0 >   A free temporary trial license is available. > 3 >   TechuDoc is a document preparation program that 6 >   will directly produce PDF Portable Document Format7 >   documents. The documents are written, with the text 5 >   editor of your choice, to contain text and markup 3 >   code which label the structural elements of the 7 >   document, such as chapters, paragraphs, and tables. 7 >   That source file is then converted by TechuDoc into 2 >   a PDF document that can be reliably viewed and >   printed anywhere.  > 6 >   The document markup tags are of the form <keyword>7 >   to start a keyword and </keyword> to end a keyword. 7 >   For example, <b> will start bold text and </b> will  >   end bold text. > 3 >   TechuDoc supports all the standard built-in PDF 5 >   fonts plus the addition of New Century Schoolbook 9 >   as a built-in font type. Documents created with these 9 >   fonts are small and compact, as no embedded fonts are : >   required. In addition, you can specify any Adobe Type16 >   font and embed that font in your document, thereby9 >   ensuring it will appear the same on any other system.  > 7 >   TechuDoc supports a wide range of operating systems 8 >   and platforms, which include; Windows 95/98/2000/NT,7 >   Linux Intel and Alpha, Sun Solaris, and OpenVMS VAX  >   and Alpha.   --   Cheers, F +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222 E  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222 F +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:51:26 GMT 3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam> , Subject: Re: Apache & protecting OSU scripts- Message-ID: <2YpR7.2712$_3.10734@news.iol.ie>   5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0112100852.6898f319@posting.google.com...   G > try setting up ACL's for each individual file you want to protect ...   K I think I may have caused some confusion here.  By 'protect' I refer to the I web browser popping up a username/password dialog box, and authenticating F this against the SYSUAF. The CGI script can then use the authenticated	 username.   E Apache seems to activate this for all the files in a given directory, J whereas OSU could specify a single script file.  Since scripts written forK OSU must reside in a single directory, how can I turn authentication on for  some of these, but not all.   L If, on the other hand, there is a way using ACLs to achieve this (as opposedC to granting access to the script for the Apache account), could you E elaborate please, as I can't find any reference to this in the Apache  documentation ?     L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --K Tom Wade    | EMail: T.Wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam (all domain mailers). G EuroKom     | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie & 30, Dale Rd | Tel:   +353 (1) 278-7878& Stillorgan  | Fax:   +353 (1) 278-78793 Co Dublin   | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimer @ Ireland     | Tip:         "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:06:15 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Compaq after merger-failureB Message-ID: <HMlR7.217967$8q.21022501@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  7 "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mindspring.com> wrote in message , news:9v49qn$hf6$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...' > Terry C. Shannon wrote in message ...  > L > >Rich and Mark are not the problem. If you believe there is a problem withK > >VMS marketing, by all means find out who bears direct responsibility for - > >marketing and take up the issue with them.  > >  > >  > L > _IF_ you believe there's a problem?  _IF_ there's a problem?  Is there anyC > doubt in anyone's mind here that there's a major problem with VMS 
 marketing,  > whoever is to blame?  Sheesh!.  H Not only that, but the problem is one of sufficiently long standing thatJ it's pretty obvious that whoever bears direct responsibility for marketingL is either far too incompetent to be worth talking with or far too hamstrung.K In either case, going higher up on the org chart is called for - to Rich at L a minimum, and it's not clear that he has the authority to change things (heF certainly didn't seem to have it 18 months ago, so Mark likely doesn't today).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:18:13 -0500 & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target / Message-ID: <u1c8u0tirca444@corp.supernews.com>   L My posting has been corrected elsewhere by another.  The $675 Billion has soH many strings attached to it that it is unlikely Compaq will ever see the money   - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message % news:3C152488.D518BE52@prodigy.net...  > Jeff Killeen wrote:  > > ; > > "IsraelRT" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message 6 > > news:71061u8e79i92jp85nt4ca8qnmkb48i6vi@4ax.com... > > B > > > He has not been able to make it profitable for sometime now.I > > > With the global economy now relentlessly nose diving, Compaq has no 2 > > > chance at all of returning to profitability. > > K > > Surprisingly the $675 million that is suppose to result from the merger F > > being called off may be the most profitable thing Compaq has done. > J > Do they get it if the HP shareholders vote against the HP board's advice > and turn the deal down?  >  > > G > > It is a _fact_ that Compaq has cut over a billion dollars a year in  ongoing J > > operations costs.  That is _before_ any Alpha related cost savings are > > factored in. > > K > > Take the HP money, the supposed Intel money, the reduction in operating J > > costs, and the predicted upturn in revenue in Q3 and Q4 - and bozo the clown C > > would likely show at least a fair profit with Compaq next year.  > > J > > There will be those who will claim Compaq faces a deep revenue decline. > > rather than any upturn - time will tell...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:36:06 +0100 * From: Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target / Message-ID: <3C1627E6.7090509@brussels.sgi.com>    Jeff Killeen wrote:   N > My posting has been corrected elsewhere by another.  The $675 Billion has soJ > many strings attached to it that it is unlikely Compaq will ever see the > money  >   C That would be a long a bloody battle, though, enriching quite a few C layers. Most clauses like MAC clauses et al in merger contracts are C hard to call upon in case of buyer's regret, and courts have tended ! to interpret them quite narrowly.    --  ? <these messages express my own views, not those of my employer> ) Alexis Cousein				Senior Systems Engineer . SGI Belgium and Luxemburg		al@brussels.sgi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:06:08 +0100 ) From: "Pio Baettig" <baettig@hotmail.com>   Subject: Compaq to can OpenVMS ?+ Message-ID: <3c15e7a6@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch>   , From http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htm  , Compaq drops OpenVMS support on Alpha server   Thin end of a wedge?& By Mike Magee, 11/12/2001 10:50:22 BSTJ ALPHA ENTHUSIASTS have feared that Compaq might start edging away from its OpenH VMS commitments and now it appears the thin end of the wedge has started	 affecting " products based on the 64-bit chip.D And now those fears seem to have been partly justified, judging from insiders at Compaq in Germany.J Sources said that Compaq is saying that it will not support OpenVMS on the DS20L range, claiming C that the investment to provide that support is no longer justified. H But the source added that he had been told that Compaq does not wish the move to be generallyL known as yet, as it would spark fear, uncertainty and doubt about OpenVMS on other platforms.G The telecommunications market does not seem to give a jot about OpenVMS  support on the DS20L,eL and that appears to be the reason for the shift in the previous 100 per cent commitment to the market. e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:05:56 GMTS4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>$ Subject: Re: Compaq to can OpenVMS ?. Message-ID: <8poR7.32734$ER5.368706@rwcrnsc52>  4 "Pio Baettig" <baettig@hotmail.com> wrote in message% news:3c15e7a6@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch...p. > From http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htm >e. > Compaq drops OpenVMS support on Alpha server >i > Thin end of a wedge?( > By Mike Magee, 11/12/2001 10:50:22 BSTL > ALPHA ENTHUSIASTS have feared that Compaq might start edging away from its > OpenJ > VMS commitments and now it appears the thin end of the wedge has started > affectingt$ > products based on the 64-bit chip.  L VMS hasn't asserted a presence in the HPTC space in quite some time, and theI same seems to be true for the segment of the telco market which the DS20L G addresses. The decommitment appears to be confined to the DS20L itself.n  J If the product targets markets in which VMS is not a player, I can see whyF CPQ might choose not to spend the money qualifying the product for VMS support.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:15 -0500M- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> $ Subject: Re: Compaq to can OpenVMS ?, Message-ID: <3C1654B1.146756BF@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > VMS hasn't asserted a presence in the HPTC space in quite some time, and theK > same seems to be true for the segment of the telco market which the DS20LMI > addresses. The decommitment appears to be confined to the DS20L itself.u  N Humm, wasn't the Telco market one of the few strong remaining niches for VMS ?  Now that one is gone too ?y  N Has Compaq woken up to the fact that lack of sales in telcos is a natural sideM effect of the telco industry being in a depression ? So what Compaq is sayingyW is that once the telco industry wakes up again, VMS will no longer be a chosen product.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:57:31 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Compaq without the merger= Message-ID: <v9pR7.30040$pa1.11639815@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>   J http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-8132532-0.html  1 The Starting Line: Compaq preps for life after HPi By: Larry Dignan 12/11/01 4:00 AM Source: News.com  H As Compaq Computer's future with Hewlett-Packard remains in flux, the PCD maker appears to be positioning itself in case the companies' merger	 unravels. C Over the weekend, Compaq CEO Michael Capellas sent a memo about theeF HP-Compaq deal to employees telling them that the company supports theL merger but would have "a pragmatic view of our business and a clear focus on the future."  I That future, detailed by Compaq in June, centers on building its businessnL around services, enterprise software and hardware, and innovative new access devices, he said.e  K "That strategy has not changed," Capellas said in the memo. "Whether we areeL part of the new HP or a standalone company--I am confident in our ability to achieve these objectives."  C Capellas' memo capped a week in which Houston-based Compaq had beenyI increasingly making its executives available to the press and analysts torL counter the perception that it will founder if it doesn't merge with HP, andL to trumpet its successes in storage, high-end servers and services, analysts said.   L The public-relations push coincides with the ongoing saga between HP and itsK major shareholders, which have panned HP's plan to buy Compaq. It's hard toeJ ignore the timing: The Compaq road show comes as the likelihood grows that  the merger deal will fall apart.  H Publicly, Compaq said it still supports the merger despite word that theA David and Lucile Packard Foundation and Walter Hewlett oppose it.s  I But even before the Packard Foundation voiced its opposition last Friday,tF Compaq's actions indicated that the company could be hedging its bets,K analysts said. Investors are also hedging: Compaq shares fell 14 percent onv6 Monday to $9.70. HP shares held steady closing at $23.  K "They are trying to remain visible because of the merger, but they are alsoCI making a statement that they are a survivor either way," said David Katz,uI chief investment officer for Matrix Asset Advisors, which holds shares of  both Compaq and HP.d  - Compaq denies that it's straddling the fence.   L "We are not trying to set ourselves up in case the deal doesn't go through,"K said Michael Winkler, executive vice president for Compaq's global businessrK units. "But whether or not the deal goes through, we believe the stock is aw? great buy as we are fundamentally changing our business model."o  L Winkler was in New York last week meeting with various members of the press.J Although he spent some time talking about why a merger with HP would work,H much of the visit was used to talk about Compaq's business units and the  information technology industry.  J "The last couple months, Compaq executives have mostly talked about the HPK merger, but now they're going back to talking about what Compaq is actuallysJ about," said A.G. Edwards analyst Brett Miller. "At this point, you'd have
 to hedge."  J Miller noted that Compaq's effort to portray itself as something more thanH just a PC maker started in August when the company unveiled its services strategy to Wall Street.  F But the HP merger put that PR effort on the back burner as Compaq headG Capellas joined HP CEO Carly Fiorina to stump for their potential deal.l; Lately--as the HP deal has become dicier due to shareholderiE opposition--Compaq has made key executives available to highlight itsaG business units and is even offering tours of its facilities; the lattero& hasn't typically happened in the past.      
 Campaign time.6 Last week, Compaq was on a barnstorming tour of sorts:  J . Mary McDowell, senior vice president for the company's industry-standardK server group, met with Merrill Lynch on Dec. 5 to talk about software toolsy. for Compaq's Windows- and Intel-based servers.  D After the meeting, Merrill Lynch analyst Steven Fortuna reiterated aJ "neutral" rating, but did note that "Compaq often excels in exploiting theJ more technologically advanced aspects of the open systems architecture for its industry-standard servers."u  H . Mark Lewis, vice president and general manager for Compaq's enterpriseL storage group, met with UBS Warburg analyst Don Young on Dec. 4. Young notedL that Compaq can give EMC fits because it has a more efficient business modelL in storage. The analyst also "could not help but notice the clear advantagesJ that (Compaq) has over Dell (Computer) in NT storage cost and technology."  H . While McDowell and Lewis met with Wall Street, Winkler made the roundsK with the press. Winkler said morale at Compaq remains strong even as the HP I flap has unfolded, and he noted that Compaq has met its goals for OctobernJ and November. He also discussed Compaq's efforts in supercomputing and the recent gains of new customers.  F Miller said Compaq's efforts to tout its businesses and reposition theI company are crucial to its success--especially if the HP merger does fall  apart.  E "It's tough in the industry right now, and they have to differentiatesF themselves," said Miller, noting that Compaq will likely face problemsK keeping executives and winning over customers who will be wondering whether ( the company will be up for sale shortly.  K Luckily for Compaq, the company has strong management teams running its keynI divisions, Miller said. Though the top executives have lost ground on theaJ strategic front because of the HP deal, division heads are still "blocking and tackling," he added.       Deal or no deal?G Some analysts expect Compaq shares to eventually rebound if the HP deal,L falls through. These analysts note that Compaq will continue to de-emphasizeL the PC business while continuing to invest in new technologies and services.  F Last week, Sanford C. Bernstein analyst Vadim Zlotnikov said Compaq isG positioned to top earnings estimates and show improvement in the fourth D quarter. If the deal doesn't happen, Compaq will most likely have toJ restructure to cut costs, analysts said. If Compaq restructures, it shouldI have at least enough growth to justify a stock price of $13, more than $3  above its closing price Monday.   E George Elling, an analyst at Deutsche Banc Alex Brown, made a similarcG argument Monday. He said Compaq has "turnaround potential" and that itslC parts are worth more than the whole of the company's current value.s  J Matrix's Katz said he believes Compaq is worth much more as an independentD company, which is why he was among the first to oppose the merger inL October. "We think the company is worth 100 percent to 200 percent more thanL it is now," Katz said. "We can easily see Compaq at $20 in the next 12 to 18 months."  I Other analysts aren't so sure about Compaq's prospects, noting management K was willing to sell out when the company's shares were trading at a 52-weektD low. U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray analyst Ashok Kumar said Monday thatJ Compaq's prospects as an independent company are "dubious." He said CompaqJ will have trouble convincing customers about its enterprise product plans.  E While analysts may disagree over Compaq's future, they agree that theoH company's effort to position itself for a future without HP is the right move.   J Joel Wagonfeld, an analyst at Banc of America Securities, said both Compaq. and HP should end the campaign for the merger.  L "Although we believe the merger could have been a viable long-term option atG one point, we think both companies should now focus on mending customerpH relationships rather than risking further damage by fighting this uphill battle," Wagonfeld said.   --------------------------------  ? Typical industry and press talk - no real mention of enterprisedG architecture, systems, or o/s products. Any why is that? Because CompaqOF never emphasizes this in their meetings with analysts and the press. A4 hypothetical conversation, hypothetically overheard: :aD Analyst/Press - "Mr. Capellas, can you tell us about Compaq's growth strategies?"K Capellas - "Well today I'd like to talk all about our money-losing lines ofiK business, and totally ignore the business units that are profitable and howsI we plan to continue growing them... mostly because we don't have a clue."p   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:19:44 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>& Subject: Re: Compaq without the merger. Message-ID: <kupR7.30560$wL4.110249@rwcrnsc51>  ? "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:v9pR7.30040h <snip>   >aA > Typical industry and press talk - no real mention of enterprise I > architecture, systems, or o/s products. Any why is that? Because Compaq F > never emphasizes this in their meetings with analysts and the press.  G Well, that's interesting... Compaq sure as heck talked about enterprise-G architectures, systems, and operating system products at their regionaluL analyst briefings in Cupertino, CA (6 November), Cambridge, MA (8 November), and London, UK (4 December).  E I seem to recall the "E-word" mentioned at CETS2001, but perhaps I am5	 confused.8  E That said, Compaq IMHO needs to do a much better job articulating itsi enterprise strategy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:37:58 +01001$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>& Subject: Re: Compaq without the merger0 Message-ID: <gLpR7.113$Qv5.7402@news.get2net.dk>   Terry,  > Since you are at these meetings, your word must be received asJ authoritative.  Interestingly though, this type of information never seemsE to make it to the printed press when anal-ysts (your own publicationseK excluded of course) are quoted.  Now, I have no idea why this would be, butyJ the typical "rent-a-quote" seems rarely to acknowledge the true enterprise@ part of CompaQ, and one could be excused for concluding that the+ "hypothetical" discussion below is typical.s   Dweeb.? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message ( news:kupR7.30560$wL4.110249@rwcrnsc51... >eA > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:v9pR7.30040s > <snip> >  > >pC > > Typical industry and press talk - no real mention of enterprise K > > architecture, systems, or o/s products. Any why is that? Because Compaq H > > never emphasizes this in their meetings with analysts and the press. > I > Well, that's interesting... Compaq sure as heck talked about enterpriseeI > architectures, systems, and operating system products at their regionaloC > analyst briefings in Cupertino, CA (6 November), Cambridge, MA (8e
 November), > and London, UK (4 December). >eG > I seem to recall the "E-word" mentioned at CETS2001, but perhaps I amu > confused.@ >pG > That said, Compaq IMHO needs to do a much better job articulating itsT > enterprise strategy. >y >r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:04:33 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>& Subject: Re: Compaq without the merger. Message-ID: <B0rR7.31062$wL4.112176@rwcrnsc51>  / "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com> wrote in message0* news:gLpR7.113$Qv5.7402@news.get2net.dk... > Terry, >e@ > Since you are at these meetings, your word must be received asL > authoritative.  Interestingly though, this type of information never seemsG > to make it to the printed press when anal-ysts (your own publications7! > excluded of course) are quoted.   ? Very true, and it is Compaq's job to do something about this...h  J The analysts are gonna write whatever they want to write (unless of courseH they are retained to write collateral on a contract basis, which doesn't9 happen all that often). The press is a different story...   G Compaq's press handlers would be well advised to PROACTIVELY engage thesB press. This seems to work quite well for other enterprise vendors.      , > Now, I have no idea why this would be, butL > the typical "rent-a-quote" seems rarely to acknowledge the true enterpriseB > part of CompaQ, and one could be excused for concluding that the- > "hypothetical" discussion below is typical.C >a  H Based on the firm's past performance this is indeed true! Sad, but true!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 07:56:43 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler). Subject: Re: Crash Notificationa3 Message-ID: <DiqC28etb+NT@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  Y In article <3C1502CC.6CFF8EA3@vmmc.org>, Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> writes:T7 > At the end of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, I have myself paged.t > F > I'd like to differentiate between a normal boot and a crash restart. > B > What can I look at from within DCL to see if this is a normal or > a crash restart? > Thanks  E    If you put an SDA copy command in the boot somewhere, it will copytF    the dump from the dump file only if it was a crash.  You could then%    test for presence of the new copy.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:09:35 +0010u' From: <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au>-+ Subject: Re: DCPS stopped, inactive problem15 Message-ID: <01KBR61XJ102001DQF@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>c  ' A week ago, I asked this question here.s  K I had three very quick responses asking for more information.  Regretfully 2L I have not had much access to my machines since then, and in a day's time I  am away for a month.  / A colleague is trying to progress this locally.   I Thanks for your responses, I apologise if I seem to no longer have shown tE interest.  When I am back mid January, if the story is exciting (and sK resolved), I'll post info of what happened in the event that it might help d
 someone else.   ( Events can overtake our best intentions.   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 08:09:59 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n Subject: Re: DEC is DEAD3 Message-ID: <lmOVDcLv0BLD@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <0DgR7.45349$f75.2048301@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> writes: > ) > http://www.epsilon3.com/images/flat.jpgm      File not found.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:24:31 +0100t, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>" Subject: Re: DECUS Switzerland: ok& Message-ID: <3C164F5E.8A183CB0@gmx.ch>  	 found it.e thanks to all of you.r   "The network is the system"a% (Digital Equipment Corporation, 1984)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:59 +0100e( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> Subject: Re: DECUS Switzerland?f- Message-ID: <VA.000004e5.e70754b0@bluewin.ch>2  < In article <3C1524A7.7C53D730@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi wrote: > Hi,n > Q > I'm desperatly trying to get in touch with the Switzerland chapter of DECUS. NoaN > answer to email, no postal address on their WEB site, noone knows anybody atP > COMPAQ about them and the European DECUS chapter in Belgium does not even knowS > their address. If someone around here can tell me if they still exist, please do.o > ' These details go back more than a year.h   Gerard Lambert POTS: +41 (0)1 229 27710 mailto:gerard.lambert@decus.ch  ' Also: Irena Honegger [mailto:ih@bmo.ch]n   ___t
 Paul Sture Switzerlands   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:22:09 +0100 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> Subject: Re: DECUS Switzerland? G Message-ID: <3c15c066$0$19300$5039e797@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>@  ? "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitrag3  news:3C1524A7.7C53D730@gmx.ch... > Hi,C >hG > I'm desperatly trying to get in touch with the Switzerland chapter oft	 DECUS. No,K > answer to email, no postal address on their WEB site, noone knows anybodyh atK > COMPAQ about them and the European DECUS chapter in Belgium does not evenf knowH > their address. If someone around here can tell me if they still exist,
 please do. > 	 > Thanks,  >  > D. > --I >   ---------------------------------------------------------------------fG > MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlnG > Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670 1 > 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.- > J > Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseJ > On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   Hi!1  K I can give you the address of the secretary of the austrian LUG, maybe they1
 can help you:   ! Somer, Ida [Ida.Somer@compaq.com]i   Regardsi   Ren   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:52:05 +0100r* From: Matthias Cramer <cramer@dolphins.ch> Subject: Re: DECUS Switzerland?n' Message-ID: <3c1600aa@bali.dolphins.ch>n   Ren Schelbaum wrote:d   > A > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitragm" > news:3C1524A7.7C53D730@gmx.ch... >> Hi, >>H >> I'm desperatly trying to get in touch with the Switzerland chapter of > DECUS. NouL >> answer to email, no postal address on their WEB site, noone knows anybody > atL >> COMPAQ about them and the European DECUS chapter in Belgium does not even > knowI >> their address. If someone around here can tell me if they still exist,  > please do. >>
 >> Thanks, >> >> D.  >> --oJ >>   ---------------------------------------------------------------------H >> MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlH >> Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 46702 >> 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France. >>K >> Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS Expertise K >> On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spokeng  J I'm member od DECUS Switzerland. If you like, I can search the address at E home for you, pleas drop me an Email if you are still looking for it.o   Best Regards     Matthias Cramer      -- aD      _;\_    Matthias Cramer                System & Network ManagerA     /_.  \   Dolphins Network Systems AG    Phone +41-1-847'45'45aA    |/ -\ .)  Libernstrasse 24               Fax   +41-1-847'45'49vC  -'^`-   \;  CH-8112 Otelfingen             http://www.dolphins.ch/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:27:33 -0500g% From: "Nancy Lyons" <n.lyons@rcn.com>  Subject: Re: disk shadowingl+ Message-ID: <9v553q$f2r$1@bob.news.rcn.net>t   Robert Fairfield <robert.fairfield@verizonwireless.com> wrote in message news:4b4254e.0112101245.18212a98@posting.google.com...z > Rob, >nH > If you are having a 'controlled shutdown', then try setting the SYSGENE > dynamic parameter SHADOW_MAX_COPY TO 0 on all nodes before shutting ( > down. This will disable shadow merges. >e > Robert Fairfield  A Shutting merge/copy down using SHADOW_MAX_COPY can create a worselU situation.  I would want the merge to complete so that I can avoid a full copy shouldi" another system leaves the cluster.  P In VMS 7.3 you can use the new merge prioritization and delay factor features to throttle up or down the amount of system overhead you can tolerate at that time.  Although SHADOW_MAX_COPY is dynamic, the value isd not usually changed'T since the value should be set based on relatively fixed conditions (number of shadow. sets, number of directly attached nodes, etc.)  C At one time, VMS forced a minimum of 1 for SHADOW_MAX_COPY, even ifaR the parameter was set to zero.  More recent versions allow you to shut off systemsT that should not be asked to perform the function (such as a system at a third quorum+ site in a disaster tolerant configuration).t  O If a merge is required, its best to get it over with.  Read operations suffer a I performance hit if above the "merge fence" since both blocks must be readrL and compared before the I/O can complete.  If a difference is found then theL block is merged but that doesn't fragment the fence.  Subsequent reads still5 require a compare until the fence moves past the LBN.f  U Better yet, and the original question, is to not do any merges if possible.  A system X crash is not usually avoidable but an orderly shutdown is quite different.  ImplementingL a good shutdown.com and using it maybe be the best answer.  I know I've seenX many sites that put little or no attention to the shutdown procedure and they could haveL benefited from the effort.  Also, changing the option on the SHUTDOWN symbol> to "remove node" rather than "none" is another recommendation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:37:52 -0500y0 From: "Rob L Lyons" <rob.lyons@resilientsys.com> Subject: Re: disk shadowingp+ Message-ID: <9v55n5$h93$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  T Nancy Lyons <n.lyons@rcn.com> wrote in message news:9v553q$f2r$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >C > Robert Fairfield <robert.fairfield@verizonwireless.com> wrote in message news:4b4254e.0112101245.18212a98@posting.google.com...  > > Rob, > >s  P Oops, sorry.  I forgot I was using Nancy's account at the time to post my reply.  	 Rob Lyonsa
 Consultant High Availability Systemsm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:42:27 +0100g, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>7 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RE: RECALL does not work)b* Message-ID: <9v4gu9$559$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KBPPYQYF7W9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...oK > > And I did a limited test with a small file > 255 characters per record.rH > > Even though EDT claims to truncate these records, it appears that itI > > only does so for display purposes, writing the complete records on an 	 > > EXIT.c >vF > If the long lines are already there, fine.  But one can't manipulateI > longer lines.  This, the 65535 limit on number of lines and the lack ofg> > a learn feature I see as the only real disadvantages of EDT. >tB > With regard to the length of lines, it is rare that I need to doI > anything with an editor on a file with such long lines.  With regard to.G > the number of lines, not quite so rare, though usually limited to theyI > beginning of the file as mentioned, so also not a problem.  Personally,lI > I rarely run into situations where learning a sequence of keystrokes ise > worth the time to set it up. >t; > For those not familiar with EDT, what do I like about it?a >s; > It displays non-printable characters in an intuitive way.n  H TPU uses the small two letter characters where possible. Also reasonable
 intuitive.  
 > It is fast.s  
 So is TPU!   > It is a mature product.i  
 So is TPU!  J > There is none of the annoying lack of synchronisation between keystrokes8 > and display which TPU has even on a very fast machine.  A I have never noticed this. Maybe this is due to other parameters.C  $ > It is easily usable in batch mode.  ( Agreed. I use EDT for that purpose also.  J > its command language is terse but powerful (not QUITE TECO-like, but you > get the idea)   G I certainly wouldn't call it terse compared with TECO. The commands arem reasonable english verbs.k  J > I have to admit, though, that I have little experience with TPU and even% > less with its DECwindows interface.n  G For me the (by far) most important feature of TPU is that you can use asL DECterm of any size (I use 64 rows by 200 characters often) and TPU will useL it all. EDT maxes out at 24 by 132. I use the 'normal' TPU in a DECterm, andD I always disable the special mouse handling of TPU so that I can use1 'normal' mouse actions in/out of the TPU session.v  	 Bart Zorne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:59 +0100C( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>3 Subject: Re: EDT limits (was: RECALL does not work)H- Message-ID: <VA.000004e4.e70754a6@bluewin.ch>a  J In article <F0xRNSawf7dz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen wrote:J > In article <3C150C61.B26BAA4D@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:M > > You forgot one of the most important features. EDT will keep the original P > > file attributes, a file with fixed record sizes etc. will stay the same. EVE$ > > will change the file attributes. > @ > Have these both fixed the bug of putting an output file in the? > first level of a rooted directory (e.g., SYS$SPECIFIC) rather 4 > than the level in which the input file was found ? > = > When rooted directories were first introduced, TECO was theh  > only editor that got it right. >v3 Both editors have got it right for a long time now.t ___s
 Paul Sture Switzerlandt   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:21:03 GMTo1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>s Subject: Re: ftp problem4 Message-ID: <PljR7.5880$zZ5.118063@news.kpnqwest.fi>  . "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in message4 news:NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAGEFIDOAA.dallen@nist.gov... >M > Hmm... >rL > ASCII mode transfers mandate that the sending system send each RECORD with arI > CRLF terminator.  Since Linux files are LF terminated records the LinuxsG > FTP server adds CR's to each record as it is sent. The VMS FTP clientyH > strips the CRLF's and writes a variable length record with the result. Files F > transferred in ASCII mode should not require conversion to STREAM_LF format > to be usable.t >nK > The RMS-W-RTB error sounds like the UNIX server is sending in BINARY modeeK > (not adding the CR's) which makes the file look like one great big recordgH > to the VMS client (who's expecting ASCII mode data) and causes the RMS errorr > that you're getting. >b5 > Are you sure the files are indeed ASCII text files?2 >,K I contacted the owner of the ftp server and that is indeed the problem. TheeH ftp server in linux box handles ALL transfers binary even if the file isL ascii (and VMS requests ascii mode). We handled this by zipping the files in, linux box before ftp transfer. Works OK now.   thanks,g   -Kari-  ; > What TCP/IP/FTP package are you using on the VMS machine?t >e- I already posted this information ;)   -Kari-r   > Dan  >e > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: Kari Keronen [mailto:kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi]+ > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 2:50 PMo > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma > > Subject: ftp problem > >u > >h; > > I'm trying to get ascii files from a linux box via ftp. F > > With smaller files it qoes OK. I get the files and convert them to	 STREAM_LFtG > > format to be readable in VMS box. With bigger files the ftp (ascii)r transferI > > fails with RMS-W-RTB, 36864 byte record too large for users buffer. Ie canJI > > get the files by using binary mode, but after that the resulting file $ > > records are cut 512 byte pieces. > > J > > Is there any way to convert the file after binary transfer to have theL > > original "record lengths" (<cr><lf> marks the lines in unix side) ? What Ii@ > > get with the smaller files after succesful ascii transfer is > >rL > > Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes8 > > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > >i > > and after convert/fdld > >AF > > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 8700 bytes8 > > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > >s) > > This is OK, but after binary transfer  > >m5 > > Record format:      Fixed length 512 byte records. > > Record attributes:  None > >- > > convert... > >1E > > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 512 bytesn8 > > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > >r; > > Hopefully I got the problem explained understandably :)o > >o3 > > OS: OpenVMS alpha 7.2-1H1       TCPIP 5.1 ECO 3dG > > No idea what the linux box ftp client is and I have no other accessr besidess" > > ftp to the box at the moment . > > 
 > > -Kari- > >r > >n > >r > >s >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:33:44 +0000 (UTC)d From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: ftp problem+ Message-ID: <9v4quo$jr0$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>l  h In article <PljR7.5880$zZ5.118063@news.kpnqwest.fi>, "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi> writes: >c/ >"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in messagee5 >news:NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAGEFIDOAA.dallen@nist.gov...s >>	 >> Hmm...  >> >>L >I contacted the owner of the ftp server and that is indeed the problem. TheI >ftp server in linux box handles ALL transfers binary even if the file istM >ascii (and VMS requests ascii mode). We handled this by zipping the files in - >linux box before ftp transfer. Works OK now.c >l  O Can you let us know the name of this extremely broken linux ftp server so that fJ we can make sure we never waste any time considering using it on our linux boxes.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:19:36 GMTq1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>< Subject: Re: ftp problem4 Message-ID: <sRmR7.5897$zZ5.118492@news.kpnqwest.fi>  
 troll-ftpd  5 http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/ftpd.htmle  ) From products man pages UNUSUAL FEATURES:   H "ASCII mode transfer is omitted, because it's useful so seldom and tripsH careless users so often. If the client tries to download a file in ASCII: mode, ftpd prints a warning at the start of the download."  J One of our unix admins said that it's quite popular in linux world becauseD it's "simple and safe". In this case it proved to be quite unusable.   -Kari-  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message.% news:9v4quo$jr0$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...vE > In article <PljR7.5880$zZ5.118063@news.kpnqwest.fi>, "Kari Keronen" $ <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi> writes: > > 1 > >"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in messager7 > >news:NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAGEFIDOAA.dallen@nist.gov...m > >> > >> Hmm...  > >> > >>J > >I contacted the owner of the ftp server and that is indeed the problem. TheyK > >ftp server in linux box handles ALL transfers binary even if the file isnL > >ascii (and VMS requests ascii mode). We handled this by zipping the files in/ > >linux box before ftp transfer. Works OK now.  > >i >iK > Can you let us know the name of this extremely broken linux ftp server soa thatL > we can make sure we never waste any time considering using it on our linux > boxes. >n >p > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >L   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:59:22 +0000. From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>m Subject: Re: ftp problem) Message-ID: <3C16032A.AE9DB335@Omond.net>a   Kari Keronen wrote:o   > troll-ftpd >-7 > http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/ftpd.html0 > + > From products man pages UNUSUAL FEATURES:  >jJ > "ASCII mode transfer is omitted, because it's useful so seldom and tripsJ > careless users so often. If the client tries to download a file in ASCII< > mode, ftpd prints a warning at the start of the download." > L > One of our unix admins said that it's quite popular in linux world becauseF > it's "simple and safe". In this case it proved to be quite unusable.   "Unusual features" ???  G It's simply very badly broken, regardless of what your Unix admins say.r  ( "Troll ftpd" ?  How appropriately named.  % Do your best to get rid of this junk.m  
 *sigh* ...  	 Roy Omondh Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 08:01:12 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler). Subject: Re: ftp problem3 Message-ID: <fKxH63IQdxdn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <sRmR7.5897$zZ5.118492@news.kpnqwest.fi>, "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi> writes: > J > "ASCII mode transfer is omitted, because it's useful so seldom and tripsJ > careless users so often. If the client tries to download a file in ASCII< > mode, ftpd prints a warning at the start of the download." >   D    The RFP maintainers will tell you one of the common problems withA    FTP implementations is to assume that the code will be simple.s  F    The above glorifies the brain deadness of a UNIX-only life.  I usedG    to work with a fellow who thought like that ("binary always works"),UE    then was constantly running dos2unix and unix2dos.  Henever had ton    use a real file system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:29:08 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a Subject: Re: ftp problem8 Message-ID: <ai5c1u0d1g7gvmt3smsp7hh87lh8t66qin@4ax.com>  D On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:59:22 +0000, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:   >Kari Keronen wrote: >p
 >> troll-ftpdd >>8 >> http://www.trolltech.com/developer/download/ftpd.html >>, >> From products man pages UNUSUAL FEATURES: >>K >> "ASCII mode transfer is omitted, because it's useful so seldom and tripseK >> careless users so often. If the client tries to download a file in ASCIIh= >> mode, ftpd prints a warning at the start of the download."e >>M >> One of our unix admins said that it's quite popular in linux world because,G >> it's "simple and safe". In this case it proved to be quite unusable.- >- >"Unusual features" ???  >1H >It's simply very badly broken, regardless of what your Unix admins say.  , But doesn't SET F|ILE/ATT:RFM:STMLF filenameE work if the file is downloaded in binary mode? Assuming the file is aiF Unix format ASCII file then a binary download will get it onto the VMSF system exactly as is. So changing to STMLF to match the Unix file typeC should work. If you download using the ftp client from Netscape your> end up with files already in STMLF format - not fixed 512 byte	 records. t  D Unix has no concept of non binary files. ASCII files are just binary= files with LF chars separating lines. VMS, on the other hand, @ understands Unix ASCII format so just change the format with the command above to match.-  ; No need to ZIP the files first. Or have I missed something?h  ) >"Troll ftpd" ?  How appropriately named.> >l& >Do your best to get rid of this junk. >d >*sigh* ...  > 
 >Roy Omond >Blue Bubble Ltd.,   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:12:44 GMTE1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>i Subject: Re: ftp problem4 Message-ID: <0gqR7.5924$zZ5.118901@news.kpnqwest.fi>  . > But doesn't SET F|ILE/ATT:RFM:STMLF filenameG > work if the file is downloaded in binary mode? Assuming the file is atH > Unix format ASCII file then a binary download will get it onto the VMSH > system exactly as is. So changing to STMLF to match the Unix file typeE > should work. If you download using the ftp client from Netscape you @ > end up with files already in STMLF format - not fixed 512 byte
 > records. >wF Using TCPIP 5.1 ECO 3 ftp client I ended up fixed 512 byte records (as! expected) when using binary mode.o   From VMS help:  @      o  Specifying IMAGE results in a sequential file with fixed@         records of 512 bytes. Select this type when transferring7         non-ASCII files such as executable image files.o   SET FILE/ATTR won't fix this.    > >u( > >Do your best to get rid of this junk. > >eL I will try my best to convice the owner of the linux box to change their ftpF server :)  Any good suggestions by the way ? chroot support essential.   -Kari-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:13:54 GMToB From: David Schwartz <salsagroupie@_remove_this_part_.bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: gnu tar for VMS8 Message-ID: <c3bb1ukp5aku0fvk0ej1jubas45c0l2pli@4ax.com>  A Thanks for the diagnosis. That explains why I was unsuccessful inmA trying to work around the problem by breaking the tarfile up intoA* smaller pieces; I preserved the pathnames.  C I was able to workaround the problem by using info-zip, rather thane tar, to create the package.w  D It's not my file, and I doubt if I'll be able to convince the peopleE who create it to shorten the path names for the next time. Heck, if I A had unix shell-style file name completion on VMS, I'd be creatings* excruciatingly long path names myself  ;-)  * P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote:   >David Schwartz <salsagroupie.removethispart@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:<m6j31uk1fnspoq1m1b9r9t6gto91u6pf9a@4ax.com>... D >> a test (-t) or extract (-x), after partially processing the file: >> dC >> ----------     0/0        101 Dec 31 16:00:00 1969 ././@LongLinkc5 >> tar: directory checksum error for <long file path>q >tK >VMSTAR does not know about the GNU specific extensions such as "@MaNgLeD@"r( >file names or the ././@LongLink method. > G >VMSTAR uses the original (POSIX) specification of 100 character names, E >so the behaviour you see is not a bug as such. There is no "correct" E >defined behaviour in this case. As an example, tar under Tru-64 willaB >create the file with a truncated name after complaining about the >/./@LongLink entry. >eC >If at all possible you may wish to shorten your combined file/pathe@ >lengths to less than 100 characters so as your tar archives are) >compatible with non-GNU versions of tar.0 >0E >If there is _enough demand_? I might take a look at adding this (GNUc >specific) feature to VMSTAR.-   --2 David Schwartz <salsagroupie@remove_this_part.com>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:42:25 -0500o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r+ Subject: Re: HP Foundations - let them know92 Message-ID: <zCrR7.424$BK1.13315@news.cpqcorp.net>  I Bill sets up a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.  He is noto6 looking for answers.  He believes he already has them.    $ Jan Vorbrueggen wrote in message ...8 >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >.L >> The fact is that this, like almost all newsgroups, is read by more peopleF >> that written.  Bill, is the most outspoken critic of Compaq in this forum.? >> His view is that until he receives an apology, a confession,s
 resignations,.G >> and the revival of Alpha - is that Compaq (and as a side effect VMS)e should >> be destroyed. >lG >Is that so? I read his posts as saying, "with regard to killing Alpha,dI >Compaq's management is lying about the basis for its decision, and broketE >prior commitments." I have to agree with that - I find his argumentsg: >convincing, and have not seen a serious rebuttal of them. >kI >That doesn't mean I would like to see VMS dead, or even dislike the idea G >of it running on IA64 (whether the port is a good thing by itself williL >depend on Intel delivering competitive performance from future processors).H >Nonetheless, this year's events tells me to trust Compaq, as a company,H >even less than before. And that includes, as an aside, its behaviour asH >a partner in an EC-funded project which fits perfectly to the behaviour1 >it has exhibited in the matter under discussion.i >w > Jan,   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:26:01 -0500n5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>c+ Subject: Re: HP Foundations - let them knowv2 Message-ID: <sfsR7.428$BK1.13593@news.cpqcorp.net>  A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3C157D24.36451DCD@fsi.net>...  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:e >>" >> Paul Sture wrote in message ...D >> >In article <3C1193A3.53645447@fsi.net>, David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> >> >aL >> >> > So Bill, have you spoken to a "significant portion of our enterprise >> >> > customer base"?s >> >> >e: >> >> > Or does that mean you, and 3 other guys in c.o.v.? >> >> A >> >> Geez, Fred! I truly believed you knew better than that. I'mn >> >> disappointed...  >> >>eL >> >> Seems to me "a significant portion of its enterprise customer base" isH >> >> represented by regular posters here including, but not limited to,L >> >> Cerner, Abbott Labs, Sunquest, Nortel, Argonne, Comdisco, to name mostG >> >> of the few that I am aware of outside of the DoD and the academic I >> >> community. I'll let the posts that have gone through this newsgroupl! >> >> group speak for themselves.a >> >>eJ >> >And I'll just add major banks, stock brokers and their exchanges, mailC >> >order companies, car/truck manufacturers, travel agent software<@ >> >suppliers, and an occasional insurance company to that list. >>F >> I'll repeat this again.  Not even the majority of "writers" to thisF >> conference have posted anything nearly as negative as Bill, or even simpleH >> agreement with Bill.  It is pretty much Bill and a handful of others. >oI >Bill and the others like him probably have a perceived (by them) lack ofuF >anything to lose since they've likely written off VMS. So, they don't< >have to worry about leaving a sour taste in anyone's mouth. >uD >I'm not far behind them - I'm just too stupid to know when to quit! >eI >> That isn't to say that there are not people here who are concerned, oru evenI >> unhappy about recent events.  However, I continue to get private mail,e fromJ >> those who do not want to be added to Bill's "anyone who disagree's with me; >> is an idiot" list - supporting OpenVMS, and it's future.- > @ >If you're privy to information that has escaped the media, thisG >newsgroup, etc., bravo for you. We've seen little - if anything - that$) >purports even the remotest hope for VMS.  >l    E What?  That a few readers in this forum write me directly, instead ofsK wanting to engage in a fruitless battle against Bill and the wrecking crew?y< Should I then place their private mail (even redacted) here?  E What exactly does "even the remotest hope for VMS" mean?  We're stillaL selling VMS.  We're still selling Alphas.  We eventually will be selling VMSH on Itanium.  Have you heard from some difinitive, non-speculative source that VMS is going away?n  A >Recent events have done nothing and offerred less to abate that:r > , >o Major hurdles to the merger being erected  L What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  I think VMS wouldJ be stronger if the merger goes through.  But at the same time, I don't see8 where VMS has a EOL strategy if the merger fails either.  H >o Alphacide, no viable IA64 = no where for VMS to go (market perceptionH >= market reality = our reality = no jobs, no sales, 86 on VMS, over and >OUT!).r  H Smoking the same stuff as Bill?  Why is Itanium not viable?  PerformanceL predictions from a flounder?  Who's market perception are you talking about?J I've presented the OpenVMS roadmap to a number of customers - they did notL have any perception that Itanium was not viable.  We are still continuing to	 sell VMS.-   >iH >Again, if you're privy to anything that gives hope of a future for VMS,F >now is the time to speak up. Your employer and your job are at stake! >.    E It is?  I haven't been presented any evidence that VMS doesn't have aeI future.  We have turned a declining business around, and continue to makefK forward progress.  We have a plan to get to a new architecture base for theiK future.  We will also continue to support existing machines for a very longyK time with new versions of VMS, and new features.  Our project plans includenG not just new HW support, and Itanium porting, but extensive performanceeE enhancement work, file system work, UNIX compatabilty work, and more.r   >[snip]aC >> In the middle of a industry wide slump in system sales, he wouldi	 attributeh7 >> all of our problems to the decision regarding Alpha.c >t< >Well, not *ALL*, but by far a great, overwhelming majority. >m    J Not quite sure I agree with this for OpenVMS.  We still have strong demandK for OpenVMS Alpha.  Along with committments from large customers, ISV's andm partners for Itanium support.7  B >Oh sure, you'll likely see sales now just like VAXcide(?) - folksH >stocking up now on what they can get while they can get it. After that,E >it'll be like racing at full throttle off the white Cliffs of Dover.  >     H Crystal ball gazing eh?  Why are you soooo sure that Itanium will not beI viable?  I remember a lot of people saying how the x86 was just a toy and L would never be competetive.  Intel can throw a lot of money and pretty smart people at a problem.   >> On the other hand, IoH >> continue to see the internal large "wins" messages for new VMS sales, thatF >> would seem to counter that (and no, we do not make such wins public without " >> the customer wishing it to be). > I >How 'bout seeing if you can at least get permission to say publicly, "onjG >xx-xxx-xxxx, we sold a total of $nn,nnn,nnn worth of (Alpha, StgWorks,a? >etc.) to y customer(s)"? ("n" and "y" are integers, of course)k >.    L You are talking to the wrong guppy.  I do not, and never want, permission to release such information.M  K >> I have every reason to believe that OpenVMS will emerge from this in theo9 >> best shape and position that it has been in for years.s >eH >Do you also have inside info. from Intel as to when they'll FINALLY(!!)G >have a viable, saleable IA64/IPF CPU for building into OpenVMS-capablel	 >systems?f >     L I believe that even at todays performance, and Itanium running OpenVMS wouldJ be a viable solution for many customers - depending on the price.  Not allK systems have to have the bleeding edge performance.  Heck, SUN would be out J of business if that was the case.  I believe that within a few years, IA64D will start getting performance numbers that are competetive with theL high-end RISC boxes.  I also believe that Intel can drive the price on these	 way down.t     >> We will have thepF >> same robust and trusted O/S, and we will have it on a platform that shouldJ >> provide competetive performance, with lower costs.  We will continue toL >> support VAX and Alpha.  My direct contact with several customers has beenF >> very positive.  The indirect evidence I have from others who are in direct4 >> contact with customers and ISVs is also positive. >wI >As much detail as you can disclose in regard to the foregoing would be au >*VERY* *LARGE* help!v >0  G Come on now.  Would you like it if I disclosed confidential informationvF regarding *your* plans?  I will say that last month I had to visit twoL largish customers, each who have large investments in OpenVMS, in Alpha, andI who still have a few VAXes around.  Both of them were interested in A) ismI there a plan, B) what is the timing of releases/availability, C) what wasrL the story about cluster interoperability and compatability of interconnects.H Neither was concerned in the least about "Itanium" itself.  One recently8 signed a new contract for new systems for it's customer.    J >> I see no value in continuing to dwell on "why" the current decision was >> made. >eC >Nor do I - it's water under the bridge, except that damage controla >remains to be addressed.i >iG >> I myself do not share Bills beliefs on the subject.  There is littlerI >> reason to believe that even if all Bills beliefs/accusations are true,a thatI >> there is anything that can reverse our course, and revive Alpha.  MoreRJ >> likely is that if Bill were to somehow succeed in his negative campain, thatF >> it would mean that OpenVMS customers would decline to a point below critical= >> mass for anything except maintenance mode and end of life.d >rD >Well, granted. However, be that as may, you probably saw my belatedH >response to Hoff in another thread. The issue of damage control remains@ >of paramount import, especially in light of recent developments >surrounding the merger. >'C >Right now, Compaq is in a dangerously vulnerable position, with notG >margin for error. One wrong word can destroy any hope there may be fors> >the future of Compaq, VMS, etc. The spin-meisters remain MIA. >r  ! Not quite sure I understand this.   I >I'm still in denial about the death of VMS, also. I'd love to share your G >optimisitc assessment. However, with no evidence available directly to8< >me, optimism is becoming more and more difficult every day. >jF >*ANY* positive *EVIDENCE* will go further than sparring verbally with >*ANY*one here.< >R    I Look.  If Compaq really wanted, as the consiracy theorist who lead you to>E believe, OpenVMS to "go away" they had a perfect opportunity when the J Itanium strategy was announced.  It would have been "easy" for them to sayH "We will continue to execute the Alpha roadmap for OpenVMS, but will notJ port OpenVMS to Itanium.  We will support OpenVMS on VAX and Alpha as longG as you need them".  In fact, that was what *I* expected would happen if L Alpha was ever retired.  Much to *my* suprise, what we got was a committment, from the company to port OpenVMS to Itanium.  J Here we are months later and what I see is that we have hired engineers toK help with the port, meaning that the company did increase our headcount and-K $$ budget.  I see engineers comming off existing projects and starting fullnJ time on the design and implementation.  I'm seeing real designs, replacingH investigations.  I see the compilers start to show up.  We now have bothL Compaq Itanium servers, as well and HP Itanium workstations on the floor.  II am now running a regular "booting" meeting (since I'm project leading theU initial boot).  K As a member of the technical lead staff, I see the plans for new projects - K for instance a new file system - actually starting to move forward.  Or the I performance work on disk and network IO, as well as lock performance, ando NUMA performance.a  K I see weekly customer win reports, where millions of dollars of business isI/ being closed.  Old customers and NEW customers.   ( I see us lining up the ISVs for Itanium.  E So where in this should I fit "pessimism"?   Because Bill is unhappy? H Because there won't be an EV8?  Because a few people do not believe that' Intel will be able to make Itanium fly?a  % Someone recently shared this with me:g  H     Talking to Bill is like trying to teach a pig to sing.  You just get frustrated, and annoy the pig.  B I can't teach Bill to sing.  The only thing that will get close toG convincing those who probably were in a precarious position with VMS to H begin with that *VMS* will continue to be viable, is to execute to plan.J Face it, no words here will really do it.  Nor would a wholesale change ofH management convince anyone that the new management is different than theJ current management.  And the way we convince both customers and managementL that VMS is viable is to tell them what we'll do, and execute to plan.  Make money, and grow the business.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:59 +0100e( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>" Subject: Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- Message-ID: <VA.000004e6.e7075636@bluewin.ch>Z  E In article <5jgR7.28855$wL4.88207@rwcrnsc51>, Ken and Kelley Coleman a wrote:@ > Well, we voted and it turned out that you ARE the weakest Link >  > Good bye!  > 3 > (just kidding, of course...I haven't a clue why.)S > B Which gets my vote for the sh*ttiest message I've seen here for a  while. Totally uncalled for. ___u
 Paul Sture SwitzerlandN   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:34:29 +0000y% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> " Subject: Re: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com8 Message-ID: <98rb1us8gt477u4hgsajieeehqbdqhg1ld@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:59 +0100, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> wrote:  F >In article <5jgR7.28855$wL4.88207@rwcrnsc51>, Ken and Kelley Coleman  >wrote:iA >> Well, we voted and it turned out that you ARE the weakest Links >>   >> Good bye! >> s4 >> (just kidding, of course...I haven't a clue why.) >> vC >Which gets my vote for the sh*ttiest message I've seen here for a o >while. Totally uncalled for.o  @ Ah come one they did add "just kidding". Not sure if you get theC reference to "The Weakest Link" - a BBC show with Anne Robinson nowp> picked up by NBC in the States - still with Anne Robinson. TheE reference to the show again indicates the comment is tongue in cheek.r! http://www.bbc.co.uk/weakestlink/   http://www.nbc.com/Weakest_Link/   Do you have it in Switzerland? _  >Paul Sturet >Switzerland   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 03:05:54 -0800- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell)a# Subject: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L = Message-ID: <9f261edc.0112110305.242e3732@posting.google.com>n   Anyone got any views on this?.  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htme  5 Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (see " http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ )  # Info, gossip, conjecture, please...v   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:53:48 +0100:: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Lc, Message-ID: <3C1601DC.5060002@volkswagen.de>  L The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not be 5 supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ)    Chris Bardell wrote:   > Anyone got any views on this?e > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htms > 7 > Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (see $ > http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ ) > % > Info, gossip, conjecture, please...b >        -- s  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardse   Karl RohwedderB iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 BraunschweigA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843pE   E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de ,           karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.de DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:09:48 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20La- Message-ID: <MsoR7.35513$Yy.383191@rwcrnsc53>e  : "Chris Bardell" <tessier-ashpool@usa.net> wrote in message7 news:9f261edc.0112110305.242e3732@posting.google.com...1 > Anyone got any views on this?t >p) > http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htme >o7 > Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (seea$ > http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ ) >n% > Info, gossip, conjecture, please...s  K Pure conjecture, but I have a vague recollection that the DS20L is based oneI a third-party (Samsung) motherboard, not a CPQ-designed board. This mighto2 have something to do with the lack of VMS support.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:10:18 -0600t1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> ' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Ll8 Message-ID: <9v547r$9bs$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  H Interesting.  Wonder how easy or hard it is to qualify a system for VMS? Anyone know?   Dave...c  G "Karl Rohwedder" <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> wrote in message,& news:3C1601DC.5060002@volkswagen.de...J > The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not be7 > supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ)d >i > Chris Bardell wrote: > ! > > Anyone got any views on this?f > >c+ > > http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htms > >'9 > > Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (sees& > > http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ ) > > ' > > Info, gossip, conjecture, please...d > >o >t >i >f > -- >c/ > mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardst >  > Karl RohwedderD > iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 BraunschweigC > Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843cG >   E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de8. >           karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.de  > DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER >@   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:23:56 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Lg. Message-ID: <0GoR7.30477$wL4.109558@rwcrnsc51>  < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message2 news:9v547r$9bs$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com...J > Interesting.  Wonder how easy or hard it is to qualify a system for VMS? > Anyone know? >h  L That would be a good question for one of our friends in OpenVMS Engineering.F All I've ever heard the platform qualification process described as is "extensive and expensive."  , "How long" and "how much" remains a mystery!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:38:23 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Lt8 Message-ID: <e26c1uo24fi3qq96r1alq1tsfig7qde5ql@4ax.com>  2 On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:53:48 +0100, Karl Rohwedder, <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> wrote:  M >The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not be ,6 >supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ)  F And so it begins. Compaq should be aware that even if they think thereB is little market they should support it for PR purposes if nothingC else. How much work can be required to qualify the DS20 but not theu DS20L? What will vanish next?   E So in future no new single processor Alpha systems of any descriptionoD (no EV7 single processor systems already confirmed by Compaq) and no? support for VMS on the upcoming lowest cost dual processor box.f  ? Why anyone will want to buy it with Tru64 or Linux is beyond meTD anyway. Except to meet existing plans until the customer can find an escape strategy.     >Chris Bardell wrote:v >   >> Anyone got any views on this? >>  * >> http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htm >> n8 >> Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (see% >> http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ )I >> '& >> Info, gossip, conjecture, please... >> m   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:53:47 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Lr1 Message-ID: <f_pR7.417$BK1.7752@news.cpqcorp.net>a  l In article <9v547r$9bs$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:C :... Wonder how easy or hard it is to qualify a system for VMS? ...r  H   What most folks don't realize is how different the internal structures0   and hardware of Alpha systems can actually be.  K   The OpenVMS qualification process for a new platform takes anything from hI   a couple of months and a few engineers to a couple of years and a large I   number of engineers, depending on what needs to be designed, developed, K   and debugged, and how closely the new platform ("correctly") emulates an  J   existing platform.  Even something as apparently simple as a board-swap H   processor upgrade within the platform can potentially have huge costs D   and pitfalls, if something is sufficiently (and subtly) different.      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:02:54 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20LaB Message-ID: <O6qR7.152107$tf5.8113268@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messagee+ news:f_pR7.417$BK1.7752@news.cpqcorp.net...gJ > In article <9v547r$9bs$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz"# <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:iE > :... Wonder how easy or hard it is to qualify a system for VMS? ...a >eJ >   What most folks don't realize is how different the internal structures2 >   and hardware of Alpha systems can actually be. >sL >   The OpenVMS qualification process for a new platform takes anything fromK >   a couple of months and a few engineers to a couple of years and a largerK >   number of engineers, depending on what needs to be designed, developed,gL >   and debugged, and how closely the new platform ("correctly") emulates anK >   existing platform.  Even something as apparently simple as a board-swaptI >   processor upgrade within the platform can potentially have huge costsuF >   and pitfalls, if something is sufficiently (and subtly) different.  J Interesting information in general, but about where would the DS20L (if it/ indeed is a 'new platform') fall on that scale?D   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:51:52 GMTo3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>t' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Le/ Message-ID: <3C1646D8.FA5083D6@cableinet.co.uk>    Chris Bardell wrote: >  > Anyone got any views on this?o > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htmm > 7 > Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (seea$ > http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ ) > % > Info, gossip, conjecture, please...t  L looks like the "White Box Alpha that can't run VMS" syndrome all over again?H Maybe it makes some business sense but doesn't send a very good message.G Then again, any customers still on VMS are probably immune to "not very  good messages".   R Bottom line, Intel ain't funding DS20L support like they are the IA64 port of VMS.O Surely otherwise adding DS20L support would be noise in the OpenVMS Engineeringi budget?>  * well, you asked, noone else answered yet.      -- s Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  f  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of I! my employers or service provider.M   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:04:25 GMT,F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Ly2 Message-ID: <JUrR7.425$BK1.13817@news.cpqcorp.net>  o In article <O6qR7.152107$tf5.8113268@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:i@ >"Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message, >news:f_pR7.417$BK1.7752@news.cpqcorp.net...K >> In article <9v547r$9bs$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz"t$ ><david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:F >> :... Wonder how easy or hard it is to qualify a system for VMS? ... >>K >>   What most folks don't realize is how different the internal structuresa3 >>   and hardware of Alpha systems can actually be.  >>M >>   The OpenVMS qualification process for a new platform takes anything fromiL >>   a couple of months and a few engineers to a couple of years and a largeL >>   number of engineers, depending on what needs to be designed, developed,M >>   and debugged, and how closely the new platform ("correctly") emulates anaL >>   existing platform.  Even something as apparently simple as a board-swapJ >>   processor upgrade within the platform can potentially have huge costsG >>   and pitfalls, if something is sufficiently (and subtly) different.  >rK >Interesting information in general, but about where would the DS20L (if ita0 >indeed is a 'new platform') fall on that scale?  F I haven't seen a DS20L, so I can't give you an answer on that specificH platform.  However, in general, platforms that look a lot alike at firstG can turn out to be very, very different internally.  If the manufactuer C changes revisions on some small but crucial parts (built-in PCI bustH controllers, disk controllers, Ethernet adaptors, etc.), then the entireF qualification process may have to start over again from scratch.  WhenG the part that changes is on the motherboard, there often isn't any such H thing as "just test the part that changed".  If there is any chance thatH the part will affect the memory or I/O or other busses, you have to testD the WHOLE system over again, and make sure that all of the supportedC devices that are going to plug in to the PCI slots will still work.eB The more integrated the motherboard is, the more likely it is thatB a problem with one device will have side effects on other devices.  A We've seen some strange effects when 'just one change' is made tom> anything that comes close to the PCI bus and I/O world.  Quite@ frankly, a lot of the commodity parts that are being churned outA now don't work the way the manufactuer claims they should.  Quite-A often, the manufactuer will bring out a part which is supposed toI> be upwardly compatible with the previous part, and we find out> that it isn't: at least, when you put it into a multi-user VMS; environment and test to the standards our customers expect.i  @ There is also a problem qualifying anything that started life as? a third-party board.  They don't always work as advertised, ando? you can't assume that just because they ran with one version ofeA Linux (or, in the past, NT) and one disk that they will still run = correctly with multiple controllers and lots of users on VMS.r  @ If the new system is really and truly the same board but just in> a bigger (or different) cabinet, then the testing process is a lot easier.a   -- a(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have ad5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:03:37 GMTb3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> ' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Ld/ Message-ID: <3C16499A.A7874CF4@cableinet.co.uk>i   Alan Greig wrote: A > Why anyone will want to buy it with Tru64 or Linux is beyond meiF > anyway. Except to meet existing plans until the customer can find an > escape strategy.  tH why such shortermism is so obvious to us "lowly" technical types but notE to those who have supposedly actually studied "business" is certainly E not something that inspires confidence in those that attempt to lead.   D Of course, if you are currently a big fat Compaq customer looking toF jump onto Sun or IBM etc, you ain't gonna be TELLING Compaq that untilE the current project is replaced and you cancel the service contracts.c   regards    --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  .  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of y! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:33:13 -0500m5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L 2 Message-ID: <bmsR7.431$BK1.13769@news.cpqcorp.net>  H Puleese.  There have been any number of systems that were not officiallyD supported by OpenVMS.  Really.  And at least one that VMS refused to support.  I Most of the "qualification" effort for this type of box, would be done by,L the hardware group.  If they believe that the box has a market for VMS, theyF will qualify it.  A low-profile, rackmount pretty much developed for a< single UNIX customer isn't something I will lose sleep over.  K You want it?  Call up and tell your sales rep that you want to buy a coupleaL hundred.  That will make it to product management, who will suddenly realize4 that it has a wider appeal than it was intended for.       Alan Greig wrote in message ...-3 >On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:53:48 +0100, Karl Rohwedderl- ><extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> wrote:@ >rJ >>The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not be7 >>supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ)  >dG >And so it begins. Compaq should be aware that even if they think theresC >is little market they should support it for PR purposes if nothing D >else. How much work can be required to qualify the DS20 but not the >DS20L? What will vanish next? >yF >So in future no new single processor Alpha systems of any descriptionE >(no EV7 single processor systems already confirmed by Compaq) and noe@ >support for VMS on the upcoming lowest cost dual processor box. >t@ >Why anyone will want to buy it with Tru64 or Linux is beyond meE >anyway. Except to meet existing plans until the customer can find ant >escape strategy.> >  >G >>Chris Bardell wrote: >>! >>> Anyone got any views on this?w >>> + >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htme >>> 9 >>> Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (seeh& >>> http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ ) >>>r' >>> Info, gossip, conjecture, please...s >>>k >  >--  >Alant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:35:20 -0500n5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>m' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20Lc2 Message-ID: <bosR7.432$BK1.13866@news.cpqcorp.net>  E Tim Llewellyn wrote in message <3C1646D8.FA5083D6@cableinet.co.uk>...  >n >  >Chris Bardell wrote:- >>  >> Anyone got any views on this? >>* >> http://www.theinquirer.net/11120107.htm >>8 >> Don't believe the DS20L is even a current system (see% >> http://207.18.199.3/alphaserver/ )c >>& >> Info, gossip, conjecture, please... >/F >looks like the "White Box Alpha that can't run VMS" syndrome all over again?I >Maybe it makes some business sense but doesn't send a very good message.eH >Then again, any customers still on VMS are probably immune to "not very >good messages". > K >Bottom line, Intel ain't funding DS20L support like they are the IA64 portO of VMS. D >Surely otherwise adding DS20L support would be noise in the OpenVMS Engineeringo >budget? >s    E This isn't a VMS budget decision.  The product is intended for a veryd6 specific customer/customer segment in the Tru64 space.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:44:06 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>(' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L), Message-ID: <3C1653F5.7787B73E@videotron.ca>   Karl Rohwedder wrote:u > M > The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not bel7 > supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ)1  N There is something very wrong in this picture. Considering that VMS still runsM on old vaxes, including, I believe the Microvax II being still supported, whytM the hell should Compaq widthdraw support for one specific Alpha model ???????e  L If this is truly the case, then I feel that Compaq is letting a trial baloonH out to gauge customer reactions to help it decide how it should go about making its next decision.C   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:48:01 +0100 (MET)59 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L1; Message-ID: <01KBR54WNLB69138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   O > >looks like the "White Box Alpha that can't run VMS" syndrome all over again? K > >Maybe it makes some business sense but doesn't send a very good message. J > >Then again, any customers still on VMS are probably immune to "not very > >good messages". > >iI > >Bottom line, Intel ain't funding DS20L support like they are the IA64   > >port of VMS. G > >Surely otherwise adding DS20L support would be noise in the OpenVMS   > >Engineering budget? > G > This isn't a VMS budget decision.  The product is intended for a very 8 > specific customer/customer segment in the Tru64 space.  I Unless someone presents REAL evidence to the contrary, I'll believe Fred wI on this one.  How many of you VMS users even knew that the DS20L EXISTED .= before it was mentioned here that VMS is not supported on it?L  G Having said that, marketing should dictate that any statement that VMS dG is not supported on this box include the reason why, especially coming cD at a time like this (2 days past the end of the Capellas countdown, I right after news that the merger will probably collapse etc).  Marketing rB doesn't mean just stating the facts; it also means correcting, in < advance (i.e. before the damage is done), false perceptions.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:51:17 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)1' Subject: Re: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L43 Message-ID: <BmcZMVAmkexn@eisner.encompasserve.org>|  \ In article <3C1653F5.7787B73E@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Karl Rohwedder wrote:- >> -N >> The DS20L is a 1U double processsor successor to the DS10L  and will not be8 >> supported by OpenVMS (just saw some slides at COMPAQ) > P > There is something very wrong in this picture. Considering that VMS still runsO > on old vaxes, including, I believe the Microvax II being still supported, whybO > the hell should Compaq widthdraw support for one specific Alpha model ???????   9    They didn't withdraw support, they never presented it.   H    Just think about the testing needed to make sure that new system runsF    in a cluster with that MicroVAX II, MV III, VAX 4000 Model 100, ...   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 09:55:50 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>i< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?H Message-ID: <y43d2iyw2x.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  * bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:  > > sorry, I thought we were talking about GOOD alternatives ...  F OS/390, or whatever it's being called today. With or without LPAR and  parallel sysplex.    Tandem NSK.n  % AS/400, for somewhat smaller outfits.a  : Heck, for some purposes, Solaris with Pitbull might apply.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 10:09:51 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?H Message-ID: <y4zo4qxgv4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ( "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes:  	 > My data L > points are what would be in the highly illogical behavior of management ifN > OVMS profitability was that robust.  It is illogical behavior that is not inI > the best interest of the corporation - but even more importantly not intL > their personal self interest.  FWIW I find people rarely act against their > own self interests.   + ...against their _perceived_ self-interest.>  K Indeed, the behaviour of Compaq management seems illogical. The explanation-L offered is based on the major disease of the US economy in (at least) recentK times: the vicious circle that operates between CEOs et al. and analysts on M Wall Street. And with Compaq being regarded as what it was - and not as what nN it is, or even what it might be in the future -, Compaq's management tries to M fulfill the expectations of Wall Street be presenting the company as what it kN was: a maker of PC-compatible boxes. Anything incompatible 8-) with that imageL has to be hidden from sight as much as possible. And I often hear reports onJ companies's - and, derived, therefrom, their exec's - performance based onK revenue and/or reducing cost: but the bottom line, income or income/revenuet doesn't seem to matter much.  L In this environment, Compaq's management is behaving in an eminently logicalM way: it's just not in the mid- to long-term interest of the company, but thats2 is not a figure of merit! This is the while point.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:57:35 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?8 Message-ID: <6plb1u0galgtb1ojv7vmd3ih3nf35c9jue@4ax.com>  D On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:07:06 -0500, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:  J >Actually this would be on the level of black helicopters - not only wouldM >you have to believe that Compaq management is doing this, that no one inside A >the corporation is providing credible leaks to press and analystOK >communities, and that the whole of both (technology and financial) analystw >communities are in on it. >aL >Don't you think by now if the institutional investors in Compaq caught windK >that there were these cash cows in Compaq they would be pressing Compaq toG( >focus on them and dump the access unit?  D Here is what Peter Kastner, Senior Analyst at the Aberdeen Group had to say:    >Message 65 in thread + >From: Peter Kastner (kastner@aberdeen.com)r/ >Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking y >Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >View this article only  >Date: 2001-11-06 07:25:29 PST m >  ...o ....G >Compaq has lost a lot of money in the last year or two in the industryrJ >standard PC business.  They've made money on Intel-based servers, but theK >margins have deteriorated there too (read: Dell), but the storage businesss: >is way up ... it's a constantly changing linear equation. >sI >It's a fact that computer companies do not tout their cash-cow installedoM >bases if for no other reason than legacy is not "new technology" nor does it G >necessarily appeal to new customers.  More than 75% (sometimes 95%) oftI >marketing dollars go to landing new accounts, not keeping old customers.-J >And it would be unseemly to remind legacy customers that the profits they >bring fuel new-product R&D. >k >  .... End Quote  L >Don't you think right now that if these cash cows existed Carly and MichaelJ >would be running them up the flagpole to counter the argument that the HP  A Now what do you say. Go call Peter Kastner and the Aberdeen Group . crazy analysts believing in Black Helicopters.  E Your attempts to portray certain people as unhinged conspiracy theory"! lunatics does not help your case.   J >printer division alone is now going to have to shoulder the cash cow loadJ >for an even bigger company?  Don't you think Carly and Michael see the HPM >deal sinking as a likely career ending event?  The whole argument being madesA >to the HP shareholders is Compaq brings no winners to the party.  >03 >argument are just too many forces are play here...  >g >>   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:40:15 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?8 Message-ID: <ilmb1u4uid7tmg6b50t54keeihg64fkd77@4ax.com>  D On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:43 -0500, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:   >.; >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message-' >news:3C14E9F4.4DA69C1F@videotron.ca...> >> Jeff Killeen wrote:H >> > Beyond 5-10 really vocal people in c.o.v. where is the data on that >_deep_  >> > distrust? >>K >> Would you agree that most remaining Compaq customers will not think very7( >> highly of Compaq's recent decisions ? >$L >Nope - I suspect the Intel customers have no opinion other than Quick BladeM >servers are just right for the data center.  I know that the NSK folks wouldMM >rather be on Intel.  I haven't run into one of them yet who wishes they wererL >on Alpha.  I also suspect that Compaq did a good job with the management ofM >the companies that generate most of the OVMS profits and Compaq has 18 monthuL >window to prove it will work.  Finally I have yet to run into a happy Tru64 >person these days.d  B My experience from talking to numerous contacts within and outwithF DECUS is that while most are not as vocal as myself almost everyone isA discomforted. Many accepted the Alpha=>IA64 announcement but werepE shocked by the implications of the following HP merger. Especially as>C it is obvious to most there is no way senior Compaq management were E unaware of the untruths they told at the time regarding the future in2  general and Tru64 in particular.  D As to lost sales I am stating for a fact that opportunities for bothE XP1000 and ES45 sales to ourselves with Tru64 have been lost.  XP1000 E with Ansys; ES45 with SAP. Only potential VMS ES45 sales remain under A consideration and I had a phone call last week from *very* senioruA management in the US asking me to justify again why we should buyE) Alphas "when Compaq had just dropped it".u  C We bought two XP1000s running NT for use with Ansys after 1) CompaqhC initially refused to support VMS on the XP1000 and 2) Ansys dropped D VMS support (quote) "because of pressure from DEC to avoid confusingD the marketplace by supporting the product under NT,  Tru64 and VMS".C Shortly after we bought our first two  Compaq dropped Alpha/NT justs? two weeks after assuring us they were committed to it.  At this F location alone we  have around 50 high end HP workstations which could@ have become XP1000s (tru64) and far, far more worldwide. But who, cares.  I am obviously not important enough.  D Call in Compaq to talk about a SAP/Tru64 solution and they quote oneF *and* quote a Wintel/SAP system unasked. Which is cheapest? And CompaqC *boast* they sell more SAP systems with Windows than Tru64?? CompaqhB should sell its own product ahead of Windows. It is more reliable.B Period. Different story if the customer actually asks for Windows.  D Aberdeen Group says it expects HP to drop VMS port. Gartner says the same. Go talk to them. NOT US!!h  J >FYI - I think the attitude of the NSK folks is they see this as being theI >last conversion whereas Alpha always ran the risk of another conversion.d >t   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:12:34 +0100,$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <cvoR7.94$Qv5.7094@news.get2net.dk>l  K Indeed, which was the subtle point of my post later in this thread.  (whichh Jeff will never read)    DweebrL "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y4zo4qxgv4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...* > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes: >  > > My dataIK > > points are what would be in the highly illogical behavior of managementt ifI > > OVMS profitability was that robust.  It is illogical behavior that is  not inK > > the best interest of the corporation - but even more importantly not ineH > > their personal self interest.  FWIW I find people rarely act against theiro > > own self interests.a >t- > ...against their _perceived_ self-interest.n >yA > Indeed, the behaviour of Compaq management seems illogical. Thes explanation.G > offered is based on the major disease of the US economy in (at least)t recentJ > times: the vicious circle that operates between CEOs et al. and analysts onI > Wall Street. And with Compaq being regarded as what it was - and not asi whatL > it is, or even what it might be in the future -, Compaq's management tries toK > fulfill the expectations of Wall Street be presenting the company as what  itJ > was: a maker of PC-compatible boxes. Anything incompatible 8-) with that image.K > has to be hidden from sight as much as possible. And I often hear reportse onL > companies's - and, derived, therefrom, their exec's - performance based on> > revenue and/or reducing cost: but the bottom line, income or income/revenue > doesn't seem to matter much. > F > In this environment, Compaq's management is behaving in an eminently logicaleJ > way: it's just not in the mid- to long-term interest of the company, but that4 > is not a figure of merit! This is the while point. >t > Jan    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:14:32 +0100e$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <3xoR7.96$Qv5.7078@news.get2net.dk>   8 Yet another content free post from the intrepid Jeff !!!   Dweeb.1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagec) news:u1av2ej5sedp38@corp.supernews.com...u >m7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message : > news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com... > >g5 > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messaged- > > news:u19ogdjt0jcdd3@corp.supernews.com...o; > > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagetB > > > news:uz4R7.208554$8q.20250959@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >sK > > > > > keep in mind that few large technology companies, and soon it may  be > > > none, K > > > > > are true believers in any given technology anymore - few, if any,m > arek
 > > > leftK > > > > > that behave like Digital did in the 1980's.  Compaq is a creature  of
 > > > whatH > > > > > the business is becoming.  They are a symptom and the cause... > > > >mI > > > > You obviously don't understand how DEC worked back when it workedw > well.d > > >cL > > > No that is your assumption as to what I was saying.  In the context of > myI > > > coment it was that Digital was loyal to technology paths way beyondp what > > weH > > > are seeing today.  Re: below - no where did I suggest "one basket" > >>L > > That certainly seems to be a reasonable interpretation of your statementK > > still quoted above:  "keep in mind that few large technology companies,  > andoC > > soon it may be none, are true believers in any given technology-	 anymore --E > > few, if any, are left that behave like Digital did in the 1980's"r > certainlygG > > suggests that you're talking about a company believing in *a* ('anyD given7H > > technology' - singular) technology and suggesting that this was what  > > "Digital did in the 1980's". > I > Is this Bill Todd or Bill Clinton - depends on what the meaning of "is"t is.wD > That is really thin.  Once again you went charging off claiming "IJ > _obviously_ don't understand how DEC worked" based upon your ASSUMPTIONSK > which were based on what you felt was a reasonable interpretation of what' Iu > said.n >mJ > Before you attack someone based on your assumptions Bill the name of theJ > game is NOT are the assumptions one has drawn reasonable but instead are theoF > assumptions drawn the ONLY reasonable ones.  Far too often you never accept@ > that there OTHER reasonable interpretations that can be drawn. >2L > Clearly in the case above "one basket" is not the only interpretation thatI > can be drawn from what I said.  It is truly intellectually dishonest ofc youoC > to come a try to justify attacking someone based on being able to-	 constructeJ > an non-exclusive reason interpretation. Other reasonable interpretations > exist. >cC > > This is hardly the first time you've attempted to redefine yourd
 statementsK > > ex post facto (not even the first in this post - see initial correction J > > above).  It's not a competent way to carry on a discussion, and leaves oneOK > > wondering if it's intentional (in which case it's sleazy, an impression  > oneuF > > assumes you would prefer not to give if it's merely a problem with+ > > sloppiness in wording and/or thinking).s >oJ > The problem is you jumping to conclusions all time and knee jerk attacksD > when something seems to be questioning anything you said.  What is	 clarifiedhL > is false spin that is put on the comments of folks who question things youD > have said.  What the problem results from is someone who no longer	 questionsiK > his assumptions and doesn't ask are there alternative assumptions one canS > reasonably draw from this. >NI > Have you reached the point of arrogance that you can't acknowledge thata the L > reader can contribute to miscommunication?  I suspect for the sage Todd weK > know the answer.  I love the way when you missed the point it was the wayo itL > was written and not allowing for the biases that were there in reading it. >eE > A classic example of knee jerk reactions being your comment in this  postinglF > that I was questioning OVMS's profitability when in fact I had never called6 > it into question - I was only questioning its scale. >u3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagem# > news:3c114ab0$1@news.toast.net...eF > > Something I have noticed in this newsgroup is people stating their > _opinion_ L > > about how profitable OVMS is to the point where it has become an article > ofI > > faith.  What is interesting is that data points exist to the contraryu > (veryeL > > profitable) and to my knowledge Compaq does not provide the data to back > upC > > any claim.  The statement that caught my attention today was...  > >lL > > "Can't remember about the larger (although I'm sure the $9B of VMS, UnixJ > > and Tandem put together get at least near to 50%) - more profitable is > > an established fact. " > >mH > > Alpha and NSK servers are more profitable than ISSG servers as fact?K > > Especially as it relates to 8-ways?  Where is the data to back this up?  > >cL > > I do NOT claim that either case is true but my malarky detector goes offL > > each time I see this stated as fact.  Unfortunately I see a lot of POV'sG > > based on the assumption that Alpha servers are this great source ofL profitE > > that Compaq is throwing away.  While I am not claiming that Alphad serversMJ > > are grossly unprofitable like the Access Group stuff I do wonder about theiL > > profitability of the Intel, Alpha, and Hymilaya server groups.  Based onL > > public information I suspect all 3 groups are making money over the last 8pK > > quarters but it is nothing major.  A key data point to consider is that,L > > Compaq management is under huge pressure to show results.  They point toH > > profitability of the storage and services.  They do NOT point to theH > > profitability of any of the server groups.  If Alpha servers were asJ > > profitable as some in this feel they are why isn't an embattled CompaqL > > management touting that when they are touting the profitability of otherA > > groups?  I suspect most folks will have one of two answers...h > >>J > > Possible answer #1) Each morning when Capellas, Blackmore, and Winkler flyiL > > their black helicopters into their secret underground HQ in Houston they > arerL > > told by Bill Gates and Andy Grove they can't say anything positive aboutH > > OVMS or Alpha.  They all stand in front of two large screens and areH > > instructed to keep this information secret at all costs.  It must be keptI > > secrete even if it means depressing the company stock and costing thee4 > > executives personally on their performance plan. > >fK > > Possible answer #2) Alpha servers aren't anywhere near as profitable as> > some. > > people keep repeating in this newsgroup... >  >o >s >e   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 16:01:43 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?H Message-ID: <y4g06hiyw8.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ( "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes:  / > Everything I have seen from Compaq, includingnM > routine internal communications, demonstrates a very strong belief in Unix.eK > People keep missing this.  Capellas was being 100 percent consistent witheK > his statements and actions over the last 18 months when he said that UnixlN > drove a large part of the merger.  He has been so consistent in his messagesK > that for Compaq to be a enterprise players it must have a successful Unixu > strategy and market share...  G There is one example of both: Sun lives and dies with Solaris as a Unix H variant; I get the impression IBM doesn't care much about AIX one way orA the other. And Linux doesn't count because it's available to all.   I Personally, I am unconvinced that a customer presented with the choice ofrJ Solaris, Tru64, AIX, HP-UX, VMS, NSK, OS/360, and OS/400 would pick one ofK the first half of the list. They are in a twisty little maze of Unices, alle slightly different.:   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 16:12:19 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>-< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?H Message-ID: <y4d71liyek.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - > >From: Peter Kastner (kastner@aberdeen.com)gL > >And it would be unseemly to remind legacy customers that the profits they > >bring fuel new-product R&D.  B I didn't notice this on the first read. I must say I disagree withC this. Obviously, _something_ must fuel R&D, and the only source can,I be profit from "legacy" (i.e., existant) customers - who else is bringing E in money? It's a matter of scale, obviously, but for instance I wouldfF suppose that almost every customer of Intel is happy on them spending E part of the profit on better fabs and new x86 microarchitectures. Newe- processor architectures, I'm not so sure 8-).s   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:13:36 -0500n& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <u1c8l4gr7ndub3@corp.supernews.com>M  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 8 news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com...D > So given that the OVMS profit numbers came from Compaq, how do you	 reconcilerH > this with Compaq's obvious disinclination to publicize them or promoteL > additional VMS sales?  Do you still consider such actions to be consistentH > with management's personal interests (at least with your definition of them,tL > which seems to be 'the good of the company', though my definition includesL > personal fiefdoms and perceived BoD preferences and thus is much easier to= > reconcile), let alone with the interest of the stock price?m  I I believe management would be doing a better job for shareholders if theydK broke out P&L by major product lines.  You will not get an argument from megH that management is acting in a way that is somewhat contrary to the bestI interest of the shareholders by failing to break out major product lines.m  F However as you would say that is a red herring.  My original point wasI related to the claim of OVMS profitability as being this "great source ofiG profit".  The point of the original postings stands.  Compaq managementeL highlights the numbers from storage and services because they are doing veryJ well in an attempt to justify the underlying strengths of Compaq.  If OVMSB was this great source of profit as claimed in c.o.v. then it makesL absolutely no business sense for Compaq not to also highlight those numbers.% It leads to one of two conclusions...n  G 1) The black helicopter theory - Compaq management is so pro some other I technology or so against OVMS they have ceased being rational businessman L and instead have allowed a emotional dislike of OVMS to take over and act in@ manner contrary to their personal interests and the interests of
 shareholders.e  @ 2) The number do not show that OVMS is a great source of profit.  % Note I do believe OVMS is profitable."  K Those of you who believe Compaq management is that stupid will see #1 above9K as being plausible.  There will be no attempt on my part dissuade those whoeK feel that way about Compaq management.  It would be like trying to convinceuL the ACLU they have gone too far in suing to remove religion from public lifeI or trying to convince the NRA they have gone to far in attempting to stoprJ all gun laws.  I believe Compaq management while not the brightest bulb onI the tree are also not complete irrational idiots.  My purpose here is for'K folks who feel as I do to take a look at some of the claims being made heretH and ask if their validity basically depends upon Compaq management beingK irrational idiots who have allowed their emotion and personal prejudices toiI work completely against their personal interests and the interests of thedK shareholders. If the claim does depend upon that think about if you buy the  underlying assumption...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:27:14 GMTl4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?+ Message-ID: <mBpR7.7713$7y.64846@rwcrnsc54>a  L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y4g06hiyw8.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...* > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes: >E1 > > Everything I have seen from Compaq, includingXI > > routine internal communications, demonstrates a very strong belief ine Unix.sH > > People keep missing this.  Capellas was being 100 percent consistent withH > > his statements and actions over the last 18 months when he said that UnixG > > drove a large part of the merger.  He has been so consistent in hise messagesH > > that for Compaq to be a enterprise players it must have a successful Unix  > > strategy and market share... >oI > There is one example of both: Sun lives and dies with Solaris as a UnixTJ > variant; I get the impression IBM doesn't care much about AIX one way orC > the other. And Linux doesn't count because it's available to all.  >tK > Personally, I am unconvinced that a customer presented with the choice of L > Solaris, Tru64, AIX, HP-UX, VMS, NSK, OS/360, and OS/400 would pick one ofI > the first half of the list. They are in a twisty little maze of Unices,4 allt > slightly different.    A hollow voice goes "OpenVMS."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:32:27 -0500t& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?. Message-ID: <u1c9oljd4p6bb@corp.supernews.com>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:6plb1u0galgtb1ojv7vmd3ih3nf35c9jue@4ax.com... > >Message 65 in thread-- > >From: Peter Kastner (kastner@aberdeen.com)s0 > >Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking > >Newsgroups: comp.os.vms > >View this article only-  > >Date: 2001-11-06 07:25:29 PST > ....I > >Compaq has lost a lot of money in the last year or two in the industryoL > >standard PC business.  They've made money on Intel-based servers, but theD > >margins have deteriorated there too (read: Dell), but the storage business< > >is way up ... it's a constantly changing linear equation. > >eK > >It's a fact that computer companies do not tout their cash-cow installed L > >bases if for no other reason than legacy is not "new technology" nor does itI > >necessarily appeal to new customers.  More than 75% (sometimes 95%) ofwK > >marketing dollars go to landing new accounts, not keeping old customers.oL > >And it would be unseemly to remind legacy customers that the profits they > >bring fuel new-product R&D. > >b > >e > .... End Quote >tF > >Don't you think right now that if these cash cows existed Carly and MichaelhL > >would be running them up the flagpole to counter the argument that the HP >nC > Now what do you say. Go call Peter Kastner and the Aberdeen Grouph0 > crazy analysts believing in Black Helicopters.  C Has anything I said disputed the fact Compaq is taking a bath on PCcF workstations?  Nothing above is contrary to the original posting ("theI margins have deteriorated" on the low end Intel servers).  Please show me,; what Kastner said that is at odds with what I said below...t  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message ! news:3c114ab0$1@news.toast.net... D > Something I have noticed in this newsgroup is people stating their	 _opinion_mJ > about how profitable OVMS is to the point where it has become an article ofG > faith.  What is interesting is that data points exist to the contraryc (very J > profitable) and to my knowledge Compaq does not provide the data to back upA > any claim.  The statement that caught my attention today was...a > J > "Can't remember about the larger (although I'm sure the $9B of VMS, UnixH > and Tandem put together get at least near to 50%) - more profitable is > an established fact. " >oF > Alpha and NSK servers are more profitable than ISSG servers as fact?I > Especially as it relates to 8-ways?  Where is the data to back this up?  > J > I do NOT claim that either case is true but my malarky detector goes offJ > each time I see this stated as fact.  Unfortunately I see a lot of POV'sL > based on the assumption that Alpha servers are this great source of profitK > that Compaq is throwing away.  While I am not claiming that Alpha serversiL > are grossly unprofitable like the Access Group stuff I do wonder about theJ > profitability of the Intel, Alpha, and Hymilaya server groups.  Based onL > public information I suspect all 3 groups are making money over the last 8I > quarters but it is nothing major.  A key data point to consider is that.J > Compaq management is under huge pressure to show results.  They point toF > profitability of the storage and services.  They do NOT point to theF > profitability of any of the server groups.  If Alpha servers were asH > profitable as some in this feel they are why isn't an embattled CompaqJ > management touting that when they are touting the profitability of other? > groups?  I suspect most folks will have one of two answers...a >wL > Possible answer #1) Each morning when Capellas, Blackmore, and Winkler flyJ > their black helicopters into their secret underground HQ in Houston they arelJ > told by Bill Gates and Andy Grove they can't say anything positive aboutF > OVMS or Alpha.  They all stand in front of two large screens and areK > instructed to keep this information secret at all costs.  It must be keptoG > secrete even if it means depressing the company stock and costing then2 > executives personally on their performance plan. >lI > Possible answer #2) Alpha servers aren't anywhere near as profitable as  some, > people keep repeating in this newsgroup...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:46:11 +0100 $ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?0 Message-ID: <_SpR7.116$Qv5.7519@news.get2net.dk>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagee) news:u1c8l4gr7ndub3@corp.supernews.com...  >v7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageA: > news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com...F > > So given that the OVMS profit numbers came from Compaq, how do you > reconcileyJ > > this with Compaq's obvious disinclination to publicize them or promoteC > > additional VMS sales?  Do you still consider such actions to beN
 consistentJ > > with management's personal interests (at least with your definition of > them,nE > > which seems to be 'the good of the company', though my definitiono includesK > > personal fiefdoms and perceived BoD preferences and thus is much easieru to? > > reconcile), let alone with the interest of the stock price?e >sK > I believe management would be doing a better job for shareholders if theytJ > broke out P&L by major product lines.  You will not get an argument from meJ > that management is acting in a way that is somewhat contrary to the bestK > interest of the shareholders by failing to break out major product lines.p >nH > However as you would say that is a red herring.  My original point wasK > related to the claim of OVMS profitability as being this "great source of I > profit".  The point of the original postings stands.  Compaq managementoI > highlights the numbers from storage and services because they are doingl veryL > well in an attempt to justify the underlying strengths of Compaq.  If OVMSD > was this great source of profit as claimed in c.o.v. then it makesE > absolutely no business sense for Compaq not to also highlight thosel numbers.' > It leads to one of two conclusions...  >u  D Really ? There are many plausible scenarios.  Certainly more than 2.  I > 1) The black helicopter theory - Compaq management is so pro some otheryK > technology or so against OVMS they have ceased being rational businessman?K > and instead have allowed a emotional dislike of OVMS to take over and act  inB > manner contrary to their personal interests and the interests of > shareholders.w >   I There are many reasons, most of them articulated multiple times in c.o.v,u but studiously avoided by you.  B > 2) The number do not show that OVMS is a great source of profit. >l  H The stated values from CompaQ (were they lying ????) do not support this
 statement.  ' > Note I do believe OVMS is profitable.b  4 So to which of your 2 scenarios do you subscribe.  ?D Your premise is that there are 2, you state you believe that OVMS is profitable.   , I am as confused as your method of argument.  ! Speak that we may be enlightened.    >aG > Those of you who believe Compaq management is that stupid will see #1  abovegI > as being plausible.  There will be no attempt on my part dissuade thosem whohD > feel that way about Compaq management.  It would be like trying to convinceI > the ACLU they have gone too far in suing to remove religion from publict lifeK > or trying to convince the NRA they have gone to far in attempting to stophL > all gun laws.  I believe Compaq management while not the brightest bulb onK > the tree are also not complete irrational idiots.  My purpose here is for H > folks who feel as I do to take a look at some of the claims being made hereJ > and ask if their validity basically depends upon Compaq management beingJ > irrational idiots who have allowed their emotion and personal prejudices toK > work completely against their personal interests and the interests of the I > shareholders. If the claim does depend upon that think about if you buy  the  > underlying assumption... >  >h   Dweeb.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:20:44 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?@ Message-ID: <wnqR7.65281$C8.3848313@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagea) news:u1c8l4gr7ndub3@corp.supernews.com...  > 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee: > news:uz8R7.164588$YD.13057819@news2.aus1.giganews.com...F > > So given that the OVMS profit numbers came from Compaq, how do you > reconcilefJ > > this with Compaq's obvious disinclination to publicize them or promoteC > > additional VMS sales?  Do you still consider such actions to be 
 consistentJ > > with management's personal interests (at least with your definition of > them,sE > > which seems to be 'the good of the company', though my definitiona includesK > > personal fiefdoms and perceived BoD preferences and thus is much easiers to? > > reconcile), let alone with the interest of the stock price?. >tK > I believe management would be doing a better job for shareholders if they J > broke out P&L by major product lines.  You will not get an argument from meJ > that management is acting in a way that is somewhat contrary to the bestK > interest of the shareholders by failing to break out major product lines.- >-H > However as you would say that is a red herring.  My original point wasK > related to the claim of OVMS profitability as being this "great source ofaI > profit".  The point of the original postings stands.  Compaq managementtI > highlights the numbers from storage and services because they are doingi veryL > well in an attempt to justify the underlying strengths of Compaq.  If OVMSD > was this great source of profit as claimed in c.o.v. then it makesE > absolutely no business sense for Compaq not to also highlight thoset numbers.  1 <repetition of previously-offered drivel snipped>i  L By George, Jeff, you've done it yet again!  You've acted as if the *numbers*G given by Compaq in July (not June - just checked), 2000, simply did notl, exist and questioned how profitable VMS was.  6 I'll simply repeat my post from yesterday in response:  J So were you questioning Compaq's OVMS numbers stated in June [correction -I July], 2000 ($800 million annual profit on $4 billion annual revenue), or G just saying those numbers weren't particularly good compared with otheroJ Compaq endeavors (and if so please list them, along with their revenue and profit)?  J Please try to answer this time:  it's at least the fourth [now fifth] timeG I've posed the question and you've instead waffled and complained about2 being misunderstood.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:15:36 -0500I& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?/ Message-ID: <u1cfpse44ret4b@corp.supernews.com>t  8 Just to make sure there are no miscommunications here...  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:6plb1u0galgtb1ojv7vmd3ih3nf35c9jue@4ax.com...F > Here is what Peter Kastner, Senior Analyst at the Aberdeen Group had	 > to say:h > ....I > >Compaq has lost a lot of money in the last year or two in the industrysL > >standard PC business.  They've made money on Intel-based servers, but theD > >margins have deteriorated there too (read: Dell), but the storage business< > >is way up ... it's a constantly changing linear equation.  G This is a discussion about profits.  Be very careful NOT to confuse the-G concepts of "margins" and "profits".  You can make excellent profits onfK units with razor thin margins.  It has to do with unit velocity and cost of G overhead.  Example Dell Computer and Southwest Airlines makes excellentoH profits on razor thin margins.  Margins are _not_ the only factor in the profit equation!  K > >It's a fact that computer companies do not tout their cash-cow installedyL > >bases if for no other reason than legacy is not "new technology" nor does itI > >necessarily appeal to new customers.  More than 75% (sometimes 95%) ofoK > >marketing dollars go to landing new accounts, not keeping old customers.oL > >And it would be unseemly to remind legacy customers that the profits they > >bring fuel new-product R&D.  H This is an interesting statement which frankly gives one pause to think.  I The first time when responding to Alan when I read the above I read it inbH the context of marketing to customers.  Yes computer companies no longerK tout their legacy technology and expend the bulk of their marketing dollars K on the new stuff.  The highest degree of truth to this is in the PC sector.bH In that context I agree with the statement and it matches my experience.  J In the context of dealing with shareholders and the financial community itJ becomes more questionable especially given the first sentence is stated as	 absolute.s  F I wish I had more context to this.  Reading it one way does provide anK explanation of why Compaq management withholds _all_ legacy financials.  ItgK certainly is a far more reasonable explanation and NOT the explanation that L has been offered to date in c.o.v.  It is not an explanation of Compaq beingI pro-WinTel and anti-OVMS but instead an explanation that says the drivingkI force is computer companies don't want legacy customers to know where the J profits they are generating are being reinvested especially since it isn'tL on them.  That is a rational business action and not what has been suggested here before...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:38:20 -0500s5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> < Subject: Re: It you say it often enough does it become fact?2 Message-ID: <_qsR7.433$BK1.13862@news.cpqcorp.net>   Alan Greig wrote in message ...t  E >Aberdeen Group says it expects HP to drop VMS port. Gartner says then  >same. Go talk to them. NOT US!! >c    E Actually, I think it is they who suggest it, as opposed to expect it.   D The guy from Aberdeen wrote here once, but dissapeared very quickly.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 06:11:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)iC Subject: Re: Looking for .CLD files for some standard VMS  commands 3 Message-ID: <yrFpuC0f6b$W@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3C1580C2.1E787E77@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a  F > I'm hoping he's taking up the idea to write freeware versions of theG > command programs for the revived FreeVMS project. Thus, he would needtC > the .CLDs so the correct calls to the CLI$ routines can be coded.g  E Then it would not be freeware, since it would rely on DEC's coding of1A the .CLD files.  Anything unencumbered would have to be done from># scratch based on the documentation.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:41:05 -0800J From: <olaf@home>n@ Subject: MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ...4 Message-ID: <3c15d4e4$0$233$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>    Please can some one help me out?" If i perform on the command prompt) mail system_backup_output.log SMTP%"node" J it goes well, if i put the same statement in a batch file and i submit the file i get the errors  8 %MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ...- -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available   
 OS version  5 OpenVMS Alpha (TM) Operating System, Version V6.2-1H3H   Olaf   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:41:04 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)D Subject: Re: MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ...1 Message-ID: <kOpR7.415$BK1.7793@news.cpqcorp.net>t  H In article <3c15d4e4$0$233$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>, <olaf@home> writes:  # :If i perform on the command promptl* :mail system_backup_output.log SMTP%"node"  E   Please provide the exact MAIL command used from the interactive andHD   the batch attempts -- the command shown is insufficiently complete   for a direct response.  I   Which IP stack and which version?  (If this is Compaq TCP/IP Services, i+   please get to V4.2 with the current ECO.)-  G   Explicit specification of SMTP is not required given a version of thefJ   Compaq TCP/IP Services or third-party IP stack targeting V6.2 and later.I   (MAIL and the IP stack will figure out the request is for SMTP and willgK   service it accordingly -- that said, this routing determination is based  L   on the email specification, which is why the command syntax is important.)    K :it goes well, if i put the same statement in a batch file and i submit the  :file i get the errorD ::9 :%MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node ...o. :-SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available  G   This would imply there is a difference in the two environments beyondtE   the (relatively minimal) differences between interactive and batch.eJ   Logical names, etc.  Batch jobs can also execute on other systems within)   a cluster; might that be the case here?d  6 :OpenVMS Alpha (TM) Operating System, Version V6.2-1H3    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:13:10 -0500t From: Richard <no@mail.com>a0 Subject: Re: Modifying ownership of INDEXF.SYS ?8 Message-ID: <pgfc1ucsttvj6cbue2hnp5a3pjvb7vhbe9@4ax.com>  > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****  M On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:57:26 +0100, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> wrote:   H >In article <nvcv0u4v5c78vrq6j27dd5kk7pblvt5hfj@4ax.com>, Richard wrote:A >> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****n >> e@ >> A little more research says it can't be done with native VMS. >> aI >> http://www.decus.org/encompass/libcatalog/document_html/vs0174_15.htmle >> 1P >> This page points to a utility that will do what I want, but the link is dead. >> i8 >> Anyone have a copy of CHOWN  or know of a valid link? >> nP >No idea. You have so far managed to escape telling us why you want to do this.   J Simple.  Because I want the owner of INDEXF.SYS to be modified.  You don'tG need anything other than that.  Why is a 100% irrelevant question here.c  N I've received the info I need from others who were able to overcome this "why"# issue.  Thanks to those who helped.   F -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=D  *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***+                       http://www.usenet.comrF -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:08:04 +0100 = From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@dummy.com>  Subject: Rdb ??s) Message-ID: <3C162F64.17397078@dummy.com>o   Hi. 9 I just got this message from the Oracle Rdb list-server :i  A "My Oracle Account Rep just called me and told me that Oracle RDBGA was going away.  I'm figuring he was hoping to move us to Oracle.hB I couldn't get him to provide any additional details..  What's the scoop?6 I'm puzzled as to why he would call and tell me this?"    G It's the complete message b.t.w, I just cut away the original sender...g   Regardsd Jan-Erik Sderholm.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:51:32 +0100h= From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@dummy.com>o Subject: Re: Rdb ??s) Message-ID: <3C163994.3BAAEA08@dummy.com>    In reply to myself,m> New messages on the Rdb list indicates that this was some kind of misunderstanding.  ) Sorry for spreading it to the VMS list...v   Jan-Erik Sderholm.a   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:a >  > Hi.w; > I just got this message from the Oracle Rdb list-server :o > C > "My Oracle Account Rep just called me and told me that Oracle RDBiC > was going away.  I'm figuring he was hoping to move us to Oracle.SD > I couldn't get him to provide any additional details..  What's the > scoop?8 > I'm puzzled as to why he would call and tell me this?" > I > It's the complete message b.t.w, I just cut away the original sender...  > 	 > Regardsr > Jan-Erik Sderholm.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:13:15 GMTa2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Rdb ??-2 Message-ID: <%0sR7.426$BK1.13884@news.cpqcorp.net>  E   Cross-posed into and followups have been set to comp.databases.rdb.   i In article <3C162F64.17397078@dummy.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@dummy.com> writes:e  B :"My Oracle Account Rep just called me and told me that Oracle RDBB :was going away.  I'm figuring he was hoping to move us to Oracle.C :I couldn't get him to provide any additional details..  What's the  :scoop?n7 :I'm puzzled as to why he would call and tell me this?"u  H :It's the complete message b.t.w, I just cut away the original sender...  B   I usually comment that a lack of details makes for difficult (orB   even impossible) answers -- and a lack of detail also provides aC   wonderful source of confusion and consternation.  In particular, tD   I usually request that any posting here include basic information B   on the OpenVMS platform(s) and the version(s), and the names andD   version(s) of the involved products.  Why do I ask for the product"   detail?  Well, please read on...  F   Oracle Rdb on OpenVMS VAX is retiring, with no new releases planned.H   Oracle Rdb on OpenVMS Alpha continues, and the work on Oracle Rdb for E   OpenVMS IA-64 has been recently announced.  AFAIK, all of this has hC   been discussed on the list and in the OpenVMS and Rdb newsgroups.eE   Additional information is probably available on the Oracle website.a  ?   I'd encourage discussions continue over in the Rdb newsgroup.o  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:55:03 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Rdb ??m3 Message-ID: <0KHHSyOciF9H@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <3C162F64.17397078@dummy.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@dummy.com> writes:y > Hi.e; > I just got this message from the Oracle Rdb list-server :a > C > "My Oracle Account Rep just called me and told me that Oracle RDBoC > was going away.  I'm figuring he was hoping to move us to Oracle. D > I couldn't get him to provide any additional details..  What's the > scoop?8 > I'm puzzled as to why he would call and tell me this?"  H    Because he wants to scare you into making a purchase.  He doesn't get;    any commission on that RDB license you bought years ago.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 10:17:39 -0500. From: Joel Gallun <root@localhost.localdomain>> Subject: Re: Tru64.org Flash Poll on Merger "Pearl Harbor Day"3 Message-ID: <ygasnahvl9o.fsf@severn.office.aol.com>   ( "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@tru64.org> writes:  . > I wonder why you would make a statement like	 > that?  #  " because he is a troll, that's why.   please don't feed the trolls :)s   -- Joel Gallun $ Compaq support team @ America Online http://www.tux.org/~joel   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:42:56 GMTg3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam>R> Subject: Re: Tru64.org Flash Poll on Merger "Pearl Harbor Day"- Message-ID: <4QpR7.2711$_3.10421@news.iol.ie>h  1 "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@tru64.org> wrote in messageo8 news:Q04R7.29828$MR2.5709576@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...  < > There are no "folks", I run the site solo on my free time.  H I am sorry.  I was not implying that the site organizer was biassed, butK that people who were Tru64 users (and I presume a site called www.tru64.org K is aimed at Tru64 users) would be (understandably) biassed against a merger H that would mean the end of their platform.  Therefore I would expect theE *result* of such a poll taken at the venue to come down predominantly- against the merger.   G I did not intend to question your fair handling of such a poll, or your  dedication as a volunteer.  9 > You need to spend a few days with a good Unix SysAdmin..  J No thank you.  I have already had to change jobs once because I was forcedF to do SysAdmin for Unix systems in addition to the VAXes I was happily running.  Never again.  G > Who has the bias?  I wonder why you would make a statement like that?. Maybe ) > you can back it up with some reasoning.a  J I freely admit I am heavily biassed against Unix.  This is firmly based onJ first hand experience managing Unix systems.  I have no wish to rehash theJ old "VMS vs Unix" wars here again, so I won't go into the details of why IF hate Berkeley Hackware, suffice it to say that I will tolerate NT at aG pinch, as long it is not for high reliability situations, but not Unix,s under any circumstances.  L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --L Tom Wade    | EMail: T.Wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam  (all domain mailers).G EuroKom     | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie & 30, Dale Rd | Tel:   +353 (1) 278-7878& Stillorgan  | Fax:   +353 (1) 278-78793 Co Dublin   | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimer @ Ireland     | Tip:         "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:43:16 GMT B From: David Schwartz <salsagroupie@_remove_this_part_.bigfoot.com>( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?8 Message-ID: <j6eb1u0ap8hu2l2up3kaf9jo09vprh9cmm@4ax.com>  ( "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com> wrote:  ' >What is Unix for Examples in VMS HELP?t  >MAN seems to lack this feature. >  o  @ It's "For more information, by an O'Reilly book on the subject."   --2 David Schwartz <salsagroupie@remove_this_part.com>   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2001 13:46:25 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)v( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?, Message-ID: <9v52nh$1ma0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <Y2fqeAJb0Job@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s0  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: |>C |> > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messages* |> > news:9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...
 |> > [...]A |> >> What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.tA |> >> Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way too* |> >> do a context based search of HELP.   |> lE |> But then again someone should also pitch in with an explanation of I |> "the apropos (man -k) command" that does not involve unix terminology.' |> s* |> Come on, you people should know better.  D Sorry, I thought that reading these two sentences would have made itF pretty clear what the command did.  Especially being as this topic has) been going on for a little while already.   A My whole point was merely that Unix and VMS have different onlinet> documentation paradigms (just like the whole philosophy of the? underlying OS is also different).  It doesn't make one right orv= the other wrong.  Just like everybody doesn't like to drive aiC Cadillac or a Kia, people's tastes in OS and user interface differ.a< That doesn't make one better than the other, only different.   bill   -- CJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2001 14:30:18 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?, Message-ID: <9v559q$1ndt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  1 In article <3c15481a.694363411@news.wcc.govt.nz>,n,  rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes:I |> On 10 Dec 2001 15:05:26 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p	 |> wrote:i |>  F |> And, once you've figured that man displays your subject you're thenG |> flummoxed by how the hell to get out of man. Oh yes, you hit "q" howw! |> remiss of me not to know that.e  G And you exit from HELP how??  Oh wait, just keep hitting <CR> until youdL get back to the "$" prompt.  Is "q", as in "quit" really that un-intuitive??   |>  @ |> And as the poor poster asked, well no, many pages do not haveF |> examples. I guess they vary depending on the flavour of unix you're |> running.l |> e  
 $ help run   RUNr  F      Executes an image within the context of your process (see Image).  C      Creates a subprocess or a detached process to run an image anda@      deletes the process when the image completes execution (see      Process).    e      #   Additional information available:a     Image      Process   RUN Subtopic?  Topic? e $   A Hmmm.....  No Examples.  Maybe Examples aren't provided when theyoA serve no particular purpose (in the mind of the document writer.)b  @ How about this one.  How does one go about adding an item to VMS7 HELP for a locally written utility??  What's Involved??h   bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:44:30 +0100 (MET)h9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?; Message-ID: <01KBQWLG0YOG9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>b  I > And you exit from HELP how??  Oh wait, just keep hitting <CR> until you  > get back to the "$" prompt.  k  4 One makes use of the orthogonality of VMS utilities.  ( CONTROL-Z to exit is second nature.  :-)  B > How about this one.  How does one go about adding an item to VMS9 > HELP for a locally written utility??  What's Involved??p  F Basically, write the library (7-bit printable ASCII in an easy-to-use,, documented format) then use LIBRARY/INSERT.   I Many freeware VMS utilities provide their own HELP files, so one can use rH these sources as examples of both the file format and, in the BUILD.COM H or wherever, the commands to add it to an existing library, such as the H main HELP.  It's also possible to have more than one library be invoked E by HELP for folks who like to keep the main HELP library in a virgin > state.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:46:34 +0000u  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?: Message-ID: <OF755D8970.DCD63098-ON00256B1F.0050D8E7@btyp>  
 $ help run   RUNh  F      Executes an image within the context of your process (see Image).  C      Creates a subprocess or a detached process to run an image andw@      deletes the process when the image completes execution (see      Process).        #   Additional information available::     Image      Process   RUN Subtopic? image-     RUN,     Imaget  D        Executes an image within the context of your process. You can8        abbreviate the RUN command to a single letter, R.  H        If you specify an image name in the command line with an explicitC        version number (or a semicolon), the image runs with current D        process privileges. If you do not specify an explicit versionE        number (or semicolon), the image runs with any privileges withiH        which it was installed. If you have DECnet software installed andH        want to execute an image over the network, you must have read (R)        access to the file.  
        Format)            RUN  filespec        %     Additional information available:e       Parameter  Qualifier
     /DEBUG     Examples   RUN Image Subtopic?3 RUN Subtopic? processt     RUNh  	   Process   A        Creates a subprocess or a detached process to run an imagegD        and deletes the process when the image completes execution. AE        subprocess is created if any of the qualifiers except the /UICiE        or the /DETACHED qualifier is specified. A detached process isvF        created if the /UIC or the /DETACHED qualifier is specified and*        you have the DETACH user privilege.  
        Formato            RUN  filespec        %     Additional information available:t       Parameter  Qualifiers u     /ACCOUNTING           /AST_LIMIT /AUTHORIZE /BUFFER_LIMIT         /DELAY     /DETACHED  /DUMP      /ENQUEUE_LIMITiw     /ERROR     /EXTENT    /FILE_LIMIT           /INPUT     /INTERVAL  /IO_BUFFERED          /IO_DIRECT /JOB_TABLE_QUOTA t     /MAILBOX   /MAXIMUM_WORKING_SET  /ON        /OUTPUT    /PAGE_FILE /PRIORITY  /PRIVILEGES           /PROCESS_NAME}     /QUEUE_LIMIT          /RESOURCE_WAIT        /SCHEDULE  /SERVICE_FAILURE      /SUBPROCESS_LIMIT     /SWAPPING  /TIME_LIMIT &     /TRUSTED   /UIC       /WORKING_SET     Examples   RUN Process Subtopic?e  
 -------------r   So, I can see the examples. Unless you are saying that not EVERY help page carries examples, in which case I agree. They are where I expect them to be  in this instance.   Steve So        E bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) on 12/11/2001 02:30:18 PM-    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:aI From:      bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), 11 December 2001,-            2:30 p.m.   Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?     1 In article <3c15481a.694363411@news.wcc.govt.nz>,a,  rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes:I |> On 10 Dec 2001 15:05:26 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c	 |> wrote:c |>F |> And, once you've figured that man displays your subject you're thenG |> flummoxed by how the hell to get out of man. Oh yes, you hit "q" howt! |> remiss of me not to know that.2  G And you exit from HELP how??  Oh wait, just keep hitting <CR> until youl= get back to the "$" prompt.  Is "q", as in "quit" really that  un-intuitive??   |>@ |> And as the poor poster asked, well no, many pages do not haveF |> examples. I guess they vary depending on the flavour of unix you're |> running.o |>  
 $ help run   RUN_  F      Executes an image within the context of your process (see Image).  C      Creates a subprocess or a detached process to run an image andN@      deletes the process when the image completes execution (see      Process).        #   Additional information available:B     Image      Process  
 RUN Subtopic?b Topic? $   A Hmmm.....  No Examples.  Maybe Examples aren't provided when theyqA serve no particular purpose (in the mind of the document writer.)e  @ How about this one.  How does one go about adding an item to VMS7 HELP for a locally written utility??  What's Involved??=   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message haslG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,h$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedsK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.r  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.   I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,tD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:57:40 +0000   From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?: Message-ID: <OF5D1F4B39.35C3AD78-ON00256B1F.0051F653@btyp>  G I'm not 100% sure, but is doing 'apropos directory' [I have deleted the K post in which I think I saw this] and getting a list of commands related tom6 directory operations not the same as doing 'help hintsJ files_and_directories' or have I jumped in with both feet attached to some object on the bank?.   Steve Su        A koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) on 12/10/2001 09:05:26 PM-    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:,J From:      koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler), 10 December 2001, 9:05            p.m.R   Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?1    K In article <9v2puh$hnu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billd Gunshannon) writes:a >c= > What is the VMS equivalent of the apropos (man -k) command.e= > Oh wait, we have already determined that there is no way tou; > do a context based search of HELP.  I guess the answer to' > that is "hire a VMS guru".      Great example!c  ?    First thing I learned from a UNIX guru was to use apropos ons8    BSD.  Now just how would I have found that on my own?  @    And then I had to stumble around the man man page for a while=    on my first SVID system to find out it spells "apropos" ask    m-a-n-space-dash-k.            F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message haseG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,p$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedoK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.   
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.   I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,-D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:47:04 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <n1v0yJqYjgw5@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  ` In article <9v559q$1ndt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > B > How about this one.  How does one go about adding an item to VMS9 > HELP for a locally written utility??  What's Involved??F >   (    Add something to an existing library?      Help librariand  E    I.e. once again librarian is apropos to librarian, and if you just >    guessed "library" you wouldn't have a hard time finding it.  7    So I gues what you need is an apropos.com, one line:e      $write sys$output p1r  >    Than you can set up a forieng command, or dcl$path and get:        apropos copy     COPYz   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:48:13 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t( Subject: Re: Unix for HELP ... Examples?3 Message-ID: <uX10Uaap8UBM@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  ] In article <OF5D1F4B39.35C3AD78-ON00256B1F.0051F653@btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:: > I > I'm not 100% sure, but is doing 'apropos directory' [I have deleted theoM > post in which I think I saw this] and getting a list of commands related to 8 > directory operations not the same as doing 'help hintsL > files_and_directories' or have I jumped in with both feet attached to some > object on the bank?p  F    You shouldn't have jumped in, it's getting pretty deep.  Just refer    to my post on apropos.com.e    1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:13:19 +0100c/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>oC Subject: re:  US Apache Linux sites hacked - better get on VMS now!"7 Message-ID: <00A065DE.D4727248.32@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>M   > G > linux fails hackability test ... only VMS remains standing ... bettere- > be on VMS or watch your company go offline!t  3 You need some more details before that can be said.t  O 1. Was the server up-to-date, or was it hacked via an old, known vulnerability?a  H 2. In defence of Apache: was it Apache that was hacked, or an associated!    add-on? Or the underlying OS?    O Would VMS fare any better? Not necessarily. If the vulnerability was in Apache,wO it's quite likely that it would be in the VMS Apache port as well. If it was a hE configuration error, then any web browser on any platform is equally e& vulnerable to administrative blunders.  G >  'MUJIHADEEN' HACKERS TAKE OUT US GOVERNMENT SITES  December 2, 2001   >   H >  Newsbytes reports: &#8220;Two Web sites operated by the United StatesG > government were attacked Thursday by a group that threatened violencelE > against Americans. The hackers vandalized the home page of the NOAArH > Office of High Performance Computing and Communications, as well a WebF > server operated by the National Institute of Health's National HumanE > Genome Research Institute, according to a mirror of the defacementst  G And both those sites are research institutes trying to advance mankind,lJ rather than US executive or military agencies. I guess that's an accurate E reflection on the mentality of people who want to return the world to-/ a rather backward instance of the 7th century. -    [snip]aD > NOAA site, the group threatened &#8216;the greatest cyberterrorist9 > attack against American government&#8217;&#8230;&#8221;i  F If they can't successfully deface even one true government or military4 site, the chances of that from this lot seem small.    	Yours,s
 		Nigel Arnotn- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                      7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:54:25 +0100a, From: "Sjaak Bosman @ BBI.nl" <Sjaak@BBI.nl>! Subject: Working Set Size displayp4 Message-ID: <3c162a60$0$220$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>   Hi All,l  G Ever wanted to visualize the Working Set Size behaviour? Check out thiskL example (WSSIZE.COM) and an example to quickly use it (RUN_WSSIZE.COM). It'sK really nice to see how AWSA works when invoking or quiting an image. Please- let me know your comment.   ; Be aware that the PIPE command is being used in WSSIZE.COM!    Sjaak@BBI.nl         begin 666 run_wssize-com.txt= M)" A("HJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJc= M*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*@T*)" A("H@(" @p= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @l= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @*@T*)" A("H@*&,I(%)53E]74U-)1= M6D4N0T]-(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @e= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @*@T*)" A("H@(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @r= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @s= M(" @(" @*@T*)" A("HJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJs= M*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*@T*m= M)" A#0HD("$@+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TMn= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ#0HD("$-n= M"B0@(2!#;W!Y<FEG:'0@(" @.B!"87)E;F1S92 F($)O<VUA;B!/9F9I8V4@ = M075T;VUA=&EO;B!"+E8N#0HD("$@(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @0RX@2V]U=V5N = M8F5R9WIO;VT@,C(Q(" @(" M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM#0HD("$@(" @(" @(" @U= M(" @(" @,S V-2!'2R @4D]45$521$%-(" @(" @('P@26YF;T!"0DDN;FP@s= M? 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H<&ED("Y.15,N("(B*2!42$5.($=/n= M5$\@96YD7W=H:6QE#0HD(" @(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @(" @(" @248@)VUAs= M=&-H)PT*)" @(" @(" @("!42$5.#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @e= M(" @(" @(" @(2!$971E<FUI;F4@86YD(%-E="!D:7!L87DM=F%L=65S+@T*t= M)" @(" @(" @(" @(" A("TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM0= M+2TM#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @<')C;F%M(#T@r= M1B1'151*4$DH('!I9"P@(E!20TY!32(@*0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @(" A#0HD0= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(&<Q(#T@*$8D1T542E!)*"!P:60L(")$1E=30TY4(B @ = M*2 O(#(@+R G<V-A;&4G*2 A(%=31$5&055,5"!O<B!044Q?1%=31$5&055,s= M5 T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!G,B ]("A&)$=%5$I022@@<&ED+" B5U-154]4q= M02(@("D@+R R("\@)W-C86QE)RD@(2!74U%53U1!(&]R(%!13%]$5U-154]4a= M00T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!G,R ]("A&)$=%5$I022@@<&ED+" B5U-%6%1%d= M3E0B("D@+R R("\@)W-C86QE)RD@(2!74T585$5.5"!O<B!044Q?1%=315A4 = M14Y4#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @(&<S(#T@9S,@+2!G,@T*)" @(" @(" @(" @ = M("!G,B ](&<R("T@9S$-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @248@9S$@+D=4+B Q,S(@ = M5$A%3B!025!%(&<Q(#T@,3,R(#L@9S(@/2 Q,S(@.R!G,R ](#$S,@T*)" @n= M(" @(" @(" @("!)1B!G,B N1U0N(#$S,B!42$5.(%!)4$4@9S(@/2 Q,S(@i= M.R!G,R ](#$S,@T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!)1B!G,R N1U0N(#$S,B!42$5. = M(%!)4$4@9S,@/2 Q,S(-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @_= M("!P(" ]($8D1T542E!)*"!P:60L(")04$=#3E0B("D@*R!&)$=%5$I022@@ = M<&ED+" B1U!'0TY4(B I#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @(',@(#T@1B1'151*4$DHl= M('!I9"P@(E=34TE:12(@*0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!P(" ](' @+R R("\@e= M)W-C86QE)R K(#$U#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @(',@(#T@<R O(#(@+R G<V-Ao= M;&4G("L@,34-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!)1B!Ps= M("Y'5"X@,3,R(%1(14X@<" ](#$S,@T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!S:6=N(#T@n= M(E,B#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @($E&(',@+D=4+B Q,S(@5$A%3B!025!%('-Ie= M9VX@/2 B)R=I;G9E<G-E)R<G97-C)R@P8"<G97-C)RA")R=T;V=G;&5?8F]Le= M9"<B(#L@<R ](#$S,@T*)" @(" @(" @(" @(" A#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @f= M("$@0V]N<W1R=6-T(&]U='!U="UL:6YE+@T*)" @(" @(" @(" @(" A("TMn= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2T-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @t= M(" @(" @("!F:7AE9" @/2!&)$9!3R@@(B$R6DPB+"!L:6YE("D-"B0@(" @g= M(" @(" @(" @<W1R:6YG(#T@1B1&04\H("(A,3,V05,B+"!&)$9!3R@@(B<G-= M8W-I)R<G9FEX960G2"$Q-$%3.B A)R=G,2<J+B$G)V<R)RHM(2<G9S,G*BLG = M)V-S:2=+(BP@<')C;F%M(" I("D-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @i= M(" @(" @(" A(%=R:71E(&QI;F4N#0HD(" @(" @(" @(" @("$@+2TM+2TMm= M+2TM+2T-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!74DE412!3b= M65,D3U544%54("(G)W1O9V=L95]B;VQD)R(@*R!S=')I;F<-"B0@(" @(" @b= M(" @(" @5U))5$4@4UE3)$]55%!55" B)R=C<VDG02<G8W-I)R<G<"=#4"(-E= M"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @5U))5$4@4UE3)$]55%!55" B)R=C<VDG02<G8W-I = M)R<G<R=#)R=S:6=N)R(-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @ = M(" A(%-E="!F;W(@;F5X="!L:6YE+B!786ET(&EF('1H:7,@=V%S('1H92!Lu= M87-T(&QI;F4@9F]R('1H:7,-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @(2!D:7-P;&%Y+@T*i= M)" @(" @(" @(" @(" A("TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TMe= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2T-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @e= M(0T*)" @(" @(" @(" @("!L:6YE(#T@;&EN92 K(#$-"B0@(" @(" @(" @z= M(" @248@;&EN92 N15$N(&5N9%]L:6YE(%1(14X@4$E012!704E4(# P.C P3= M.B=I;G1E<G9A;"<@.R!L:6YE(#T@8F=N7VQI;F4-"B0@(" @(" @(" @(" @:= M(0T*)" @(" @(" @("!%3D1)1@T*)" @(" @(" @(" A#0HD(" @(" @(" @n= M("$@3F5X="!P<F]C97-S+@T*)" @(" @(" @(" A("TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2T-5= M"B0@(" @(" @(" @(0T*)" @(" @(" @("!P:60@/2!&)%!)1"@@0V]N=&5X = M=" I#0HD(" @(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @(" @(" @1T]43R!W:&EL90T*)" @e= M(" @("!E;F1?=VAI;&4Z#0HD(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @(" @(2!#;&5A<B!Dt= M:7-P;&%Y(&)E>6]N9"!L87-T(&QI;F4N#0HD(" @(" @("$@+2TM+2TM+2TMs= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+0T*)" @(" @(" A#0HD(" @(" @($E&n= M(&QI;F4@+D51+B!B9VY?;&EN90T*)" @(" @("!42$5.#0HD(" @(" @(" @Y= M(%=2251%(%-94R1/5510550@(B<G8W-I)S)()R=C<VDG2B<G8W-I)T$B#0HDf= M(" @(" @($5,4T4-"B0@(" @(" @(" @5U))5$4@4UE3)$]55%!55" B)R=C-= M<VDG2B<G8W-I)T$B#0HD(" @(" @($5.1$E&#0HD(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @e= M(" @(2!786ET(&)E9F]R92!S=&%R=&EN9R!A9V%I;BX@#0HD(" @(" @("$@ = M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM#0HD(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @6= M(" @5T%)5" P,#HP,#HG:6YT97)V86PG#0HD(" @(" @("$-"B0@(" @1T]4k= M3R!R97!E870-"B0@(" @(0T*)"!%6$E4#0H-"B0@97AI=%]H86YD;&5R.@T* = M)" @(" A#0HD(" @("$@4F5S=&]R92!P<F]C97-S('-E='1I;F=S+@T*)" @t= M(" A("TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2T-"B0@(" @(0T*)" @("!0 = M25!%(%-%5"!.3T-/3E123TP]*%DL5"D@.R!)1B!C=')L("Y.15,N("(B(%1(e= M14X@4T54($-/3E123TP]*"=C=')L)RD-"B0@(" @4T54(%1%4DU)3D%,("]7 = M24142#TX, T*)" @("!74DE412!365,D3U544%54("(G)V-S:2=R)R=C<VDG?= M2B<G8W-I)S\R-6@G)V-S:2<R,FTB#0HD(" @("$-"B0@15A)5 T*)" @(" @i= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @t= M(" @(" @(" @(" @($5.1%-50E)/551)3D4-"B0@(0T*)" A("TM+2TM+2TMf= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM'= M+2TM+2TM+2HJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*@T*#0HD("$@+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM0= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM = M*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ#0HD("$-"B0@9FEN:7-H.B @(" @(" @(" @(" @g= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @("!354)2s= M3U5424Y%#0HD(" @("$-"B0@(" @(2!#;&5A<B!S8W)E96XN(%-E="!C=7)Sm= M;W(@;VXN#0HD(" @("$@+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+0T*a= M)" @(" A#0HD(" @(%=2251%(%-94R1/5510550@(B<G8W-I)W(G)V-S:2<Ro= M2B<G8W-I)S\R-6@G)V-S:2<R,FTB#0HD(" @("$-"B0@15A)5 T*)" @(" @t= M(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @(" @n= M(" @(" @(" @(" @($5.1%-50E)/551)3D4-"B0@(0T*)" A("TM+2TM+2TMg= M+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM+2TM ! 8+2TM+2TM+2HJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*@T*  `h endc   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:59:33 GMTtG From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>oH Subject: Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions6 Message-ID: <9joR7.57361$xS6.92550@www.newsranger.com>  . On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:32:39 -0500, in article= <un6R7.366$BK1.6977@news.cpqcorp.net>, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  > L >Generally speaking, devices deal in physical addresses.  If they understandJ >virtual addresses, it would be because the device itself has some type ofF >virtual address translation (some graphics devices, for example, haveK >capabilities similar to this) which may/may not have any bearing to systemW >VAs.S  G Yes, that's what I thought. It's been true for every device spec that IqG have seen. (Although I am new to writing drivers _on VMS_, I am not newhJ to hardware programming in general...) I was curious about the DEC devicesD because I seem to remember that some VAX stuff (maybe CI) could read the VAX page tables directly.e   >tM >Also, in general, you can't assume that you can directly map the page - yourHM >code should use map registers to create what will look to your hardware like L >a physically contiguous set of physical addresses (see IOC$LOAD_MAP et al). >*  = What might help is to explain why I was taking that approach:   M The driver book leads you to believe that coding the driver to use the Direct(K DMA window is just fine, provided you can live with the limits (you need to % have less than 1GB of system memory).H  H The intention was to write the driver using the easier Direct DMA methodN and then, once the driver was working, to convert it to use the scatter/gather method.+  F The problem is that the routines you need to use the Direct DMA windowG (allocate physically contiguous memory, get the physical addresses of a0J multi-page user buffer, don't appear to be documented in the driver book).  G What would be _really_ useful for a future VMS release, would be to put(D a sample driver using DMA operations into SYS$EXAMPLES. The existingI buffered I/O example, LRDRIVER, has been _very_ useful for clarifying the% general driver structure.-  L >As to the control region you need, how big is it?  If it is very large, youF >may want to use "BAP" (Bus Addressable Pool".  You may want to use itG >anyway, since it will guarantee you that the memory is direct mappable;L >without mapping registers.  It's too new for the book, you'll probably need >the VMS release notes for BAP.9  L It's only a few physically contiguous pages, but I will have a look at this. Thanks for the pointer.T   >+I >The routine int exe_std$alophycntg(int npages, void **sva_p) says IPL ==(1 >SYNCH.  This routine will take out the MMG lock.3 >n  I Thanks once again. Is this in public documentation, or just in the source 
 listings ?   Simon.   -- (@ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered a(E truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.1   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 15:46:53 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>(H Subject: Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questionsH Message-ID: <y4itbdizky.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  I Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> writes:   K > I was curious about the DEC devices because I seem to remember that some T? > VAX stuff (maybe CI) could read the VAX page tables directly.*  M Yes, all CI adapters on VAX do that, I suspect that's true of Alphas as well,*L though I know the ones that are in the same chassis (VAX/DEC 7000/10000) are< loaded with different microcode depending on processor type.  N Really fast network adapters should do that as well. How about memory channel?. I think those just map windows into PCI space.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2001 10:53:52 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)(H Subject: Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0112111053.395b82ff@posting.google.com>H   Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote in message news:<y4itbdizky.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>...EK > Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> writes:(M > > I was curious about the DEC devices because I seem to remember that some (A > > VAX stuff (maybe CI) could read the VAX page tables directly.; > O > Yes, all CI adapters on VAX do that, I suspect that's true of Alphas as well,TN > though I know the ones that are in the same chassis (VAX/DEC 7000/10000) are> > loaded with different microcode depending on processor type.  B DSSI adapters on VAX which conformed to the same VAX CI Port model also read VAX page tables.  E Alpha CI adapters use the Nport model, in which host driver code doesQ? the virtual-to-physical address translation and passes physical(D addresses to the hardware.  This makes the hardware more independentC of the virtual addressing scheme of any particular operating system?E (or CPU -- MIPS was a factor at the time; as I recall Nport also uses3) a 4 Kbyte page size to accommodate MIPS).(? --------------------------------------------------------------- ? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:(> Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:54:06 -0500(5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>,H Subject: Re: Writing a device driver: virtual/physical address questions2 Message-ID: <MFsR7.434$BK1.13941@news.cpqcorp.net>  K The next version of the book that Margie has been working on, used a lot of$J real driver code examples - I think that the whole question of DMA mappingL is something she heard a lot of feedback on.  Can't tell you what the status! is on the next revision though...:      L Simon Clubley wrote in message <9joR7.57361$xS6.92550@www.newsranger.com>.../ >On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:32:39 -0500, in articleT> ><un6R7.366$BK1.6977@news.cpqcorp.net>, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>B >>Generally speaking, devices deal in physical addresses.  If they
 understandK >>virtual addresses, it would be because the device itself has some type of"G >>virtual address translation (some graphics devices, for example, have L >>capabilities similar to this) which may/may not have any bearing to system >>VAs. >(H >Yes, that's what I thought. It's been true for every device spec that IH >have seen. (Although I am new to writing drivers _on VMS_, I am not newK >to hardware programming in general...) I was curious about the DEC devices-E >because I seem to remember that some VAX stuff (maybe CI) could read  >the VAX page tables directly. >5 >>I >>Also, in general, you can't assume that you can directly map the page -! yourI >>code should use map registers to create what will look to your hardware( likeH >>a physically contiguous set of physical addresses (see IOC$LOAD_MAP et al). >> >1> >What might help is to explain why I was taking that approach: >]G >The driver book leads you to believe that coding the driver to use the< DirectL >DMA window is just fine, provided you can live with the limits (you need to& >have less than 1GB of system memory). >EI >The intention was to write the driver using the easier Direct DMA methodT@ >and then, once the driver was working, to convert it to use the scatter/gather >method. > G >The problem is that the routines you need to use the Direct DMA window(H >(allocate physically contiguous memory, get the physical addresses of aK >multi-page user buffer, don't appear to be documented in the driver book).( >(H >What would be _really_ useful for a future VMS release, would be to putE >a sample driver using DMA operations into SYS$EXAMPLES. The existingTJ >buffered I/O example, LRDRIVER, has been _very_ useful for clarifying the >general driver structure. >TI >>As to the control region you need, how big is it?  If it is very large,0 you)G >>may want to use "BAP" (Bus Addressable Pool".  You may want to use it H >>anyway, since it will guarantee you that the memory is direct mappableH >>without mapping registers.  It's too new for the book, you'll probably need  >>the VMS release notes for BAP. > G >It's only a few physically contiguous pages, but I will have a look at+ this.+ >Thanks for the pointer. >  >>J >>The routine int exe_std$alophycntg(int npages, void **sva_p) says IPL ==2 >>SYNCH.  This routine will take out the MMG lock. >> > J >Thanks once again. Is this in public documentation, or just in the source >listings ?= >; >Simon.) >5 >--+A >Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP(L >In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aF >truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.688 ************************