1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 19 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 703       Contents: Alpha EV7: Errata-Outside / Re: Anyone have a Modular Data Router installed  Re: backup problems  Re: backup problems # Business Week article on the merger ' Re: Business Week article on the merger ' Re: Business Week article on the merger   Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: CXX and the Hobbyist license  Re: CXX and the Hobbyist license  Re: CXX and the Hobbyist license$ Re: DEC/X-Windows, VMS and eXcursion$ Re: DEC/X-Windows, VMS and eXcursion Re: Disaster recover - issues? Re: Disaster recover - issues? Re: Disaster recover - issues?> Re: Disaster Recovery Experts Recovering Disks From WTC AttackE Re: From within a CGI: sending an https method=post request elsewhere  Re: FTP Servers  Re: help Re: help4 Re: HP, Compaq Face Antitrust Hurdle In U.S., Europe Re: IBM to drop PCs ??$ Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPF$ Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPF$ Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPF) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model  M7493-PA Re: M7493-PA# Re: More about Alpha and the merger # Re: More about Alpha and the merger # Re: More about Alpha and the merger # Re: More about Alpha and the merger # Re: More about Alpha and the merger ( Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questions2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.. Re: nova (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L) Re: PALcode and SRM definitions  Re: PALcode and SRM definitions  Re: PALcode and SRM definitions * Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IP* Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IP* Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IP, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft$ Re: usage of new products on vms axp$ Re: usage of new products on vms axp7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) : Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L): Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L): Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L): Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)  VMSclusters and network switches$ Re: VMSclusters and network switches RE: WAP gateway for OpenVMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:31:14 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Alpha EV7: Errata-Outside> Message-ID: <6QMT7.17786$Sj1.10341489@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J Yes, there is in fact a flaw in the final Alpha 21364 microprocessor photoG at www.openvms.org. The flaw is not the reflected light from the camera K flash, it's a Chip Labeling Errata. Better to have your Errata Outside than 	 Inside...    -- Terry C. Shannon Consultant and Publisher Shannon Knows Compaq% Director at Large, Encompass US, Inc. , Northern Delegate, DFWCUG Steering Committee  email: terryshannon@mediaone.net2 Web (info on SKC):  www.openvms.org, www.tru64.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:26:51 -0500 + From: "Froio, Jim (COGRA)" <JFroio@LIB.COM> 8 Subject: Re: Anyone have a Modular Data Router installedK Message-ID: <E0C303FC8024D41195FE0008C707231B0416EA97@excbos2.colonial.com>   L I am in the process of configuring a Compaq MDR at firmware release 1170.  IL need to specify a default gateway as the SNMP manager is on another network.K I have searched up and down and even put a call into a good Compaq Engineer H that did have an answer for me.  It's not a showstopper but it is indeedL very strange that the device does not support this option.  We verified thatF it does not accept the DHCP assignment for this value either as it wasF unpingable from other networks.  I also noticed that the DNS server(s)E display as '0.0.0.0' so those aren't picked up by the DHCP assignment H either.  I don't know why it has a DNS field anyways???  Perhaps thats aF typo and its REALLY the default gateway field!!!  I am downloading theL latest firmware now (1.17A - Is that newer than my current 1170???) and hope# to see a field for default gateway.    Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:09:14 -0700 * From: Terry Aardema <taardema@nrcan.gc.ca> Subject: Re: backup problems& Message-ID: <3C1FB07A.C97@nrcan.gc.ca>   Peter Skoog wrote:L > I am trying to backup script on my VMS-workstation. After having tried allK > combinations of backup /backup /record  /since=backup etc, I give up, Can L > somebody give me a hint how to make this script for daily(incremental) and > monthly(total) backups.   A You probably missed one step; perform a BACKUP/IMAGE/RECORD disk: C tape:saveset before trying to do an incremental for the first time.   G This is necessary due to way BACKUP handles directories with a modified F date later than it's backup date; in order to get incremental restoresE to work correctly, BACKUP must (for some definition of "must") backup F *all* files/directories below any directory that's been modified sinceG it was backed up. But the only way to actually touch the backup date on B a directory is via an IMAGE backup. So if the [000000] directoriesF modified date is later than it's backup date, *EVERY* backup is a FULL backup!   9 You may have to re-run this command occassionally; as VMS H extends/truncates directory files the modified date will change. If your> Monthly backups use /IMAGE, then you should be fine for normalH operations, although you may want to look at things if your incrementals/ suddenly start using way more tape than normal.   B BTW, just in case your not familiar with OpenVMS's terminology; an; /IMAGE backup copies *ALL* files on the disk to the saveset F contiguously, with knowledge of the filesystem so files with multilpleB directory entries are only copied once, and the backup date can beH /RECORDed. A /PHYSICAL backup copies a disk to a saveset block by block,B with *NO* knowledge of the filesystem or any interpretation of theD contents (i.e. you cannot specify /RECORD with /PHYSICAL, as /RECORD% implies knowledge of the filesystem).   E Otherwise it looks like you have a good handle on what qualifiers you  need.   
 Terry Aardema    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:43:04 -0500   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: backup problems4 Message-ID: <1011218203025.418A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Terry Aardema wrote:    > Peter Skoog wrote:N > > I am trying to backup script on my VMS-workstation. After having tried allM > > combinations of backup /backup /record  /since=backup etc, I give up, Can N > > somebody give me a hint how to make this script for daily(incremental) and > > monthly(total) backups.  > C > You probably missed one step; perform a BACKUP/IMAGE/RECORD disk: E > tape:saveset before trying to do an incremental for the first time.  > I > This is necessary due to way BACKUP handles directories with a modified H > date later than it's backup date; in order to get incremental restoresG > to work correctly, BACKUP must (for some definition of "must") backup H > *all* files/directories below any directory that's been modified sinceI > it was backed up. But the only way to actually touch the backup date on D > a directory is via an IMAGE backup. So if the [000000] directoriesH > modified date is later than it's backup date, *EVERY* backup is a FULL	 > backup!  > ; > You may have to re-run this command occassionally; as VMS J > extends/truncates directory files the modified date will change. If your  C It only started doing this as an undocumented side-effect of an ECO 3 to VMS V7.2-1 (VMS721_F11X-V0200) and VAX VMS V7.3.   @ > Monthly backups use /IMAGE, then you should be fine for normalJ > operations, although you may want to look at things if your incrementals1 > suddenly start using way more tape than normal.  > D > BTW, just in case your not familiar with OpenVMS's terminology; an= > /IMAGE backup copies *ALL* files on the disk to the saveset H > contiguously, with knowledge of the filesystem so files with multilpleD > directory entries are only copied once, and the backup date can beJ > /RECORDed. A /PHYSICAL backup copies a disk to a saveset block by block,D > with *NO* knowledge of the filesystem or any interpretation of theF > contents (i.e. you cannot specify /RECORD with /PHYSICAL, as /RECORD' > implies knowledge of the filesystem).  > G > Otherwise it looks like you have a good handle on what qualifiers you  > need.  >  > Terry Aardema  >  >    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:22:22 -0500 & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>, Subject: Business Week article on the merger/ Message-ID: <u1vquleebg5b90@corp.supernews.com>   ? http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_52/b3763001.htm    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:23:14 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: Business Week article on the merger> Message-ID: <mSST7.17941$Sj1.10566666@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message ) news:u1vquleebg5b90@corp.supernews.com... A > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_52/b3763001.htm  >   F Thanks for the heads-up, Jeff. Lots of detailed information, includingG Compaq's prospects of going it alone. The "Can Compaq Survive as a Solo I Act?" piece seems to hit the nail on the head re: leveraging services and J shedding consumer peecees, but the writer's claim that *both* home PCs andL "high end computers that are heavy on technology" are "poor performers" is aC bit over the top. Both Himalayas and big AlphaServers are "high-end I computers that are heavy on technology," and both seem to be doing just a & tad better than the Presario lineup...   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:16:18 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>0 Subject: Re: Business Week article on the mergerB Message-ID: <CoVT7.273470$uB.29671312@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message ) news:u1vquleebg5b90@corp.supernews.com... A > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_52/b3763001.htm   E Good article, and it certainly spells out what Carly is:  an arrogant K potentate who relies on charisma instead of competence and who would rather F be crushed by external forces (along with the company she's supposedly* responsible for) than admit she was wrong.  J "Even then, she didn't take her foot off the gas" describes her perfectly:L rather than recognize her luck in having predicted 15% growth in revenue andI earnings during a dot-com year when anyone who didn't achieve such growth I simply wasn't trying, she ignored the signs that conditions were changing F and tried to convince the rest of the world as well.  Reminds me of anJ investment counselor who has never encountered, or even read about, a realK recession, and sounds exactly like her bull-headed persistence in pushing a H merger that virtually everyone in a position to have an educated opinionL about such things feels is a lousy idea.  Hey, if the rest of the world's so" smart, how come *I'm* the CEO, eh?  ? A fine example of the temporary triumph of form over substance.    - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:04:53 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target ; Message-ID: <01KC0XV25L6E9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   I > Compaq can make itself attractive by making all sorts of bad management J > decisions that will drive the sahare price down at which point, a garageF > sale buy of Comapq makes sense because of all the hidden jewels thatJ > have been underutilised by Compaq which the new owner can clean and makeH > shiny again and rake in the profits that Compaq refused to generate on > those platforms.    F Maybe I should apply for a job in advertising.  Imagine if the merger : doesn't go through, and HP and Compaq are competing again.  E "HP: The company that started in a garage.  Compaq: The company that   ended in a garage."  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:19:47 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> ) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target 5 Message-ID: <3C1FA4E3.E8DB8504@swissonline.delete.ch>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > > Yeah, the rumour has been circulating, I know not if there is any credenceL > > to it. I still maintain that if the merger fails to go through CPQ couldH > > render itself a more attractive acquisition candidate by exiting theJ > > consumer peecee market. Might well make the firm more profitable, too! > I > Compaq can make itself attractive by making all sorts of bad management O > decisions that will drive the sahare price down at which point, a garage sale K > buy of Comapq makes sense because of all the hidden jewels that have been P > underutilised by Compaq which the new owner can clean and make shiny again andI > rake in the profits that Compaq refused to generate on those platforms.     O Sorry JF, but given a choice between a conspiracy and a **ck up, I'd choose the  latter every time.     John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:48:50 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target ) Message-ID: <3C1FABB2.85078B9@virgin.net>    John McLean wrote:  Q > Sorry JF, but given a choice between a conspiracy and a **ck up, I'd choose the  > latter every time. >   ' What about a conspiracy to f*ck up? :-(    > 
 > John McLean    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:39:07 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target > Message-ID: <LPNT7.17793$Sj1.10369265@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C1FA4E3.E8DB8504@swissonline.delete.ch...  >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:  > >  > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: G > > > Yeah, the rumour has been circulating, I know not if there is any  credenceH > > > to it. I still maintain that if the merger fails to go through CPQ could J > > > render itself a more attractive acquisition candidate by exiting theL > > > consumer peecee market. Might well make the firm more profitable, too! > >VK > > Compaq can make itself attractive by making all sorts of bad managementkL > > decisions that will drive the sahare price down at which point, a garage saleH > > buy of Comapq makes sense because of all the hidden jewels that have beenH > > underutilised by Compaq which the new owner can clean and make shiny	 again andeK > > rake in the profits that Compaq refused to generate on those platforms.  >  > F > Sorry JF, but given a choice between a conspiracy and a **ck up, I'd
 choose the > latter every time. >w  J On this I have to agree 110 percent. Acts of omission generally are easier than acts of commission!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:05:39 +0100x1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>t) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targetu5 Message-ID: <3C1FBDB3.69B5E978@swissonline.delete.ch>e   Alan Greig wrote:i >  > John McLean wrote: > S > > Sorry JF, but given a choice between a conspiracy and a **ck up, I'd choose thet > > latter every time. > >c > ) > What about a conspiracy to f*ck up? :-(q >   - or a conspiracy that gets really **cked up  ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:34:10 GMTo2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>) Subject: Re: CXX and the Hobbyist licenses5 Message-ID: <SnQT7.41118$m8.25183@news.webusenet.com>   + Dave Parsons <dwparsons@t-online.de> wrote:eS > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:57:01, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:   M >> He means the ConDist, Unfortunatly the OpenVMS Hobbyist CD is only one CD,o, >> while a ConDist is a whole stack of CD's. >> e3 > Thanks, is that available - at a realistic price?eK > If so, do you have any pointers? As I said earlier, I spent a lot of timee< > Saturday going round Compaq's site and found nothing much.  H Watch eBay.  They go for anywhere from $10-200 with the $200 being for aK current set (which almost never turn up).  Also, it can be useful to have a.H selection of some of the older ones for products that have been dropped.   			Zanes   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:25:59 -0500c, From: "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org>) Subject: Re: CXX and the Hobbyist licensen0 Message-ID: <s8RT7.90$sK3.4332@news.cpqcorp.net>  K If you have a C++ license and just need the binary kit,  you may be able toe> use the beta kit. The beta kit is available for download from:  D ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/c-cxx/openvms/cxx/beta/ftindex.htm  H The sanity kit (final beta kit) for V6.5 should be available shortly. WeH will annouce this kit in comp.os.vms as soon as it is available. I would; wait until the sanity kit was available before downloading.A   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:33:20 +0100 * From: dwparsons@t-online.de (Dave Parsons)) Subject: Re: CXX and the Hobbyist license P Message-ID: <Ej0w7lFo08Zw-pn2-nP6J88zNEJ9I@jupiter.dwparsons.dialin.t-online.de>  P On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:55:44, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote:  F > From the OpenVMS SPD, http://www.compaq.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDFH > page 31, what you want is either the LP & OS binaries CD set (no docs)F > QA-5FX8A-A8 or the LP CD set w/ docs QA-03XAA-H8.  I do not know the > cost of these items. > I > Additionally that page lists the order numbers for the Listings CDs andoF > the numbers for the periodic update services for all of these items. >  > Pat Rankin wrote:n > > U > > In article <Ej0w7lFo08Zw-pn2-jK3FZjnnzjr3@jupiter.dwparsons.dialin.t-online.de>,\n$ > >  dwparsons@t-online.de writes...$ > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:57:01,\8 > >  "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:	 > > [...]rQ > > >> He means the ConDist, Unfortunatly the OpenVMS Hobbyist CD is only one CD, 0 > > >> while a ConDist is a whole stack of CD's. > > >S7 > > > Thanks, is that available - at a realistic price?VO > > > If so, do you have any pointers? As I said earlier, I spent a lot of time @ > > > Saturday going round Compaq's site and found nothing much. > > B > >      "Condist" is short for "consolidated distribution", which@ > > you may or may not find via searching.  It was renamed to beC > > "Software Product Library" several years ago and I'm reasonablyTC > > sure (but haven't checked) that you'll be able to find it underaB > > this name.  There is a subscription update service that can beC > > ordered to go with it, so don't get them mixed up when checkingpC > > prices.  I have a vague recollection of the initial set costinghC > > something on the order of $1700, but don't take my word for it.e > > 6 > >                 Pat Rankin, rankin@eql.caltech.edu   Thanks to all for the pointers.    Dave  q   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:40:59 +0100g. From: "Josef Stadelmann" <stadelma@datazug.ch>- Subject: Re: DEC/X-Windows, VMS and eXcursiong( Message-ID: <3c1fa9d0@news01.datazug.ch>   No No,  @ OpenVMS has for login purpose a thing called UAF which stays forK user authorization facility (authentication by password). This UAF facilityC getsC called up on a login to a real VMS system passing the user name and 	 password.cF Theere is a purdy value retreived for the user and this purdy value in combinationaK with the password is then hashed. The resulting hash is compared aginst the  storetI hash. If a match happens your considered authenticated. Then up on that a  processwI is setup in the context of the just authenticated user where all the tinys details are then' taken from the UAF on a per user basis.i  K This UAF does not allow anything TO BE PASSED EXCEPT  A to Z, 0 to 9, $ and  _i0 and I think (GUESS) a letter must come in front.  9 Anything else, username or password is a nogo in OpenVMS.d   Sepp Stadelmanns
 23914 ex DEC.y    2 "Milton" <mbhewitt@optonline.net> wrote in message2 news:t2e7vtcc76d6bikqrjcisflpcfv9l0ocd0@4ax.com...3 > On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:11:38 -0000, "Tim Jackson"?  > <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote: >uJ > >I am running a 2 node Alpha VMScluster VMS V7.3, TCPIP V5.1, DECwindowsF > >1.2-6, Advanced Server V7.3 (as BDC to a WinNT 4 PDC) and ExcursionI > >V7.2.177 (on Windows 95).  I have XDM enabled, configured and running,oJ > >userids hostmapped to NT usernames and with XDMCP enabled (in eXcursionH > >on the PC) I see the VMS nodes okay.  When I try to logon with a userK > >name of the form "xxx.yyyyy" it always fails, but user names of the formnI > >"xxxxxxx" (i.e.. no period) work fine. Am I missing something obvious?  >f; > >Could it be that the period in a username is messing up?t >oD > It's not conforming to the 8.3 naming convention that I believe NTF > uses to store the username to the registry or possibly the harddisk. > Does xxxxxxxx.yyy work?m- > If it does then, then you have your answer.( > 8 > You may be able to change this behavior by editing the$ > NtfsDisable8dot3NameCreation value >dL http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q201/1/29.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=g5 n&FR=0&qry=8.3&rnk=2&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=NTS400 > [be aware of word wrapping]s >t >t- > >Any help or pointers would be appreciated?  >k > Just a guess.a >t	 > Cheers,i > Milton   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Dec 2001 15:58:18 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: DEC/X-Windows, VMS and eXcursionr3 Message-ID: <MvfyT8BGogzC@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  Y In article <3c1fa9d0@news01.datazug.ch>, "Josef Stadelmann" <stadelma@datazug.ch> writes:t > No No, > B > OpenVMS has for login purpose a thing called UAF which stays forM > user authorization facility (authentication by password). This UAF facilityi > getsE > called up on a login to a real VMS system passing the user name ande > password.AH > Theere is a purdy value retreived for the user and this purdy value in
 > combinationfM > with the password is then hashed. The resulting hash is compared aginst theR > storeHK > hash. If a match happens your considered authenticated. Then up on that ao	 > process K > is setup in the context of the just authenticated user where all the tiny- > details are then) > taken from the UAF on a per user basis.0 > M > This UAF does not allow anything TO BE PASSED EXCEPT  A to Z, 0 to 9, $ and1 > _02 > and I think (GUESS) a letter must come in front. > ; > Anything else, username or password is a nogo in OpenVMS.   @ That enforcement of password characters is in the hashing of the= password, of course, not in the UAF file itself.  You have tov@ hash it properly or it won't match.  What constitutes "properly"@ can be altered if you have installed site-specific password hash? algorithms, but that is not an exercise for the faint of heart.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:04:01 -0500 2 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.pas.de.spam.ca>' Subject: Re: Disaster recover - issues?t9 Message-ID: <crMT7.24391$8c2.1239359@weber.videotron.net>w  J We will be conducting a test in January. Apparently the disaster site willG take notes on what is the final requirements (after the test comes to abJ conclusion) and they will reproduce this as close as possible in the eventC of a real recovery. For th 1st test, they know our configuration sodH everything should be ok; that`s what we'll see. So basically if the testI succeeds, a real recovery should succeed too. The goal is to get thngs upd3 and running again for all branches within 48 hours.a  H I`m really not sure what things will look like on the network side. I`llD forward your comments to my co-worker who takes care of the network.   Thanks!p SyltremA  G "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message news: ! 3C1EBD63.5F701029@videotron.ca...a > Syltrem wrote: > >iJ > > We are making plans for disaster recovery, and I have a few questions. ThereV! > > are things I can't test here.u > >iI > > We have a cluster of 2 Alpha and 2 VAX. We will recover 2 alpha and 1o VAX.1 > > We have a system disk for alpha, one for VAX.r? > > SYSUAF.DAT and some other files are on the VAX system disk.. >/ >S; > > Say I start with a BACKUP /IMAGE of my VAX system disk.h >OI > > o Will I have problems with the licences (VMS, Multinet, DECnet). The.I > > machine types (or model, rather) will most probably be different than  what > > we have here.  >tH > Licenses are the least of your worries. Worry about system parameters. Worry E > about device names (ethernet tends to assume different device namest	 depending-I > on what hardware you're on and those may be hardcoded in NCL scripts if1 you2E > have decnet-5 or in the decnet parameters as well as TCPIP or othere networke > stack you have.s >- > K > If you are unable to go the volume shadowing route (which would allow youc toI > use the spare capacity of the backup systems during normal operations),eI > you'll have to generate the system disks for the backup systems well in F > advance and make sure youtune the stuff and get all the right device names,K > licenses etc etc (and then test the applications to validate the disaster  > recovery capability. >9I > Afterwards, if the backup systems are used for other purposes, you then_ need > to decide wether:nH > -you restore the backup system disks, and then overwrite the files you need > from yourn4 > production system. (keeping track may not be easy)L > -or restore your production system disks and then overwrite with all files > which are specific > to the backup system.* >h >oL > > o Will I need to change my DECnet address on these new machines (I think, > > it`s based on the hardware MAC address). >bE > It depends. Will the backup systems *ever* be connected on the same"	 network ?eE > If so, they need different node names and decnet address (it is the- ethernetJ > address which is faked based on your decnet address). You have to take aH > serious look at the telecom side of things as well as how users access yourF > machine to plan how the traffic will be rerouted to the backup node. >eG > There is also a security side to consider:  you have to take steps tos prevent E > the (or "a") backup nodes from booting and stealing your productiono > transactions.t >rK > > of 2, GS-something instead of ES40, stuff like this). It`s not possibles itK > > seems, to know in advance what machines will be available for us at theo > > disaster recovery site.p >dL > How much time have you been given to restore production after a disaster ?L > This may be a show stopper unless you have plenty of time to fiddle on theE > backup system. If your applications are important enough to warranto disasterF > recovery, you should be able to test your disaster recovery on known machines2 > before a disaster and restore to those machines.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:28:16 -0500r  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>' Subject: Re: Disaster recover - issues?d/ Message-ID: <1011218140346.10323A@Ives.egh.com>h  $ On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > Bart Zorn wrote:O > > However, since the 'old' and the 'new' clusters are not running together on J > > ther same network, there is no need to change anything with respect to! > > DECnet, be it either IV or V.t > M > How many disaster recovery plans have the backup node on a totally separate58 > network that never communicates with the primary one ?  C The Original Poster was fairly specific about his disaster recoveryD@ plan.  There is no backup node.  The plan is approximately this:   1) Building burns down.m 2) Find/build a new building.nE 3) Find replacement systems (looking at 2 Alphas and a VAX to replace !    current 2 Alphas and 2 VAXes.)s' 4) Restore backup tapes on new systems.tC 5) They're back in business (several days to several months later.)n  ) The OP was looking for details of step 4.   C Step 2 is a little tongue-in-cheek.  Perhaps they have an alternateuD location with sufficient floor space and infrastructure (power, A/C,D ethernet, WAN connectivity) that they should just be able to move in" some new servers and turn them on.  D For Step 3, perhaps they have contacted a reseller or used equipmentF vendor who has said "we have loads of those in stock.  We can send youA a replacement cluster in a few days."  They may be looking for aneC MV4000-?? and 1 couple of Alpha 1000/1200/DS20 class systems, not ai VAX 7660 and pair of Wildfires."  O > Consider the scenaruio where main system is kaput, building is still standingdO > and occupied, so you bring up the backup one. But the backup one will need todV > communicate with the users who are still connected to the primary computer building.  H It was pretty clear from the OP that the backup system doesn't exist andC would only be acquired in the event of a disaster.  A single system F self-destructing doesn't constitute a disaster.  They would just buy aJ replacement, roll it in and start it up.  (If the disks weren't destroyed,0 they wouldn't even need to restore the backups.)   > H > Another issue to look at: if your clusters are via ethernet, isn't theO > ethernet address important (and that is the one seen well before decnet comesc- > up to change the ethernet address, right ?)r  G No, I don't think the cluster software cares one whit what the EthernetuH address is.  What's more, NI clusters can cope with the ethernet addressG changing out from under it, which happens every time you boot a clusteri8 node with DECnet IV or V in Phase IV compatibility mode.  N > So when asked to build a cluster with a bunch of surprise machines, one willM > have to carefully set out procedures to ensure that their hardware ethernetlP > address are taken and the cluster and MOP databases updated to allow the nodes > to boot from each other.  F Aha - you're talking about satellite booting.  There, MAC address doesF matter (I think), so if you have satellites, you need to boot the bootE server 1st, then change the MAC addresses of the satellites.  This is84 option 3, suboption 9 in sys$manager:cluster_config.  I I'm not sure this applies to the OP.  We need more details of the current C cluster.  (It might not even be a cluster, just a bunch of separatei	 systems.)    --   John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:40:11 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e' Subject: Re: Disaster recover - issues?a, Message-ID: <3C1FFE06.D1E92A75@videotron.ca>   Syltrem wrote: > L > We will be conducting a test in January. Apparently the disaster site willI > take notes on what is the final requirements (after the test comes to aeL > conclusion) and they will reproduce this as close as possible in the event > of a real recovery.   I You should also have recurrent testing, at least once a year to ensure it E still works (for instance if meanwhgile you changed something on youraL production system and forgot to update the documentation) and to ensure that; the staff are adequatly trained and documentation complete.-  K Disaster recovery should not depend on any single person being available to  setup the backup system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:06:57 +01009, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>G Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery Experts Recovering Disks From WTC Attackt& Message-ID: <3C1FBE02.79E28CE0@gmx.ch>  = http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2101075,00.html wrote:r  E > ../.. from computer hard drives that have been partially damaged by  >    fire, water or fine dust.  M computer hard drives are water and dust proof since more that 20 years afaik,.9 and I do not think anything can be done against the fire.e   D. -- SG   ---------------------------------------------------------------------iE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlhE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670h/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.a  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:48:32 +0100i, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>N Subject: Re: From within a CGI: sending an https method=post request elsewhere& Message-ID: <3C1FB9B0.12DA0D2A@gmx.ch>  * "j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818" wrote: >  couicb   Ok. thanks for the lesson. D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:11:00 GMT + From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>c Subject: Re: FTP Servers4 Message-ID: <1008720699.38821@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messagey, news:CkcS7.572$BK1.15464@news.cpqcorp.net...F > In article <1008291635.862391@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>, "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com> writes: > :Net: 4 or 5 PC's, 2 Alphase > :Alpha with problem: > :255/233, VMS 7.1, UCX 4.10 > :Other Alpha is a new DS10, runs like a dream. >iK >   The AlphaServer DS10 is probably running V5.0A or V5.1 with ECO, right?  >- >-H >   Also check the turn-around for a DNS/bind look-up, as the FTP serverK >   tries to find out who is connecting into it.  Check the DNS/bind servers< >   throughput, and consider entering the host name locally:   Hoff,.  I Many thanks, got word today it was a bind problem, you were right! thanksc
 for the help!t   Andy   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:18:23 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: help ' Message-ID: <3C1FF952.AA48C338@fsi.net>3  " stefan.appeltans@banksys.be wrote: >  > help   Topic?   -- l David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:26:56 GMT@4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: helpe/ Message-ID: <3C1FF9FD.32A1986@blueyonder.co.uk>"   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > $ > stefan.appeltans@banksys.be wrote: > >n > > help >  > Topic? >    purchase order?t    s --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of a! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:23:07 -0500u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>g= Subject: Re: HP, Compaq Face Antitrust Hurdle In U.S., Europet, Message-ID: <3C1FFA07.9E0B64EB@videotron.ca>  
 Questions:  M Is the wintel market crowded enough both in usa and europe that the loss of ar< company would not really affect the grand scheme of things ?  N If the  Curly-Carly wedding occurs, will  HP really grow to such a size in theL wintel market that it will become a threath to the others ? Or will Compaq'sE market share be diluted amongst many wintel manufacturers, making its H disapearance only slightly advantageous to HP in tersm of overall wintel market share ?    N Would regulators realise that many Compaq's enterprise customers are likely toN defect to Sun and IBM , as would MPE users, and that as a result, the combinedM HP-Compaq wouldn't just be a combination of the two's enterprise businesses ?nL Or would they just do some math and assume that HP would get all of Compaq's centerprise customers ?n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:35:50 -0500y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: IBM to drop PCs ??a, Message-ID: <3C1FFD01.CDA408F5@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote: > < > Well-known industry analyst John Dvorak seems to think so.  J I don't think so. IBM long ago said it would downplay its PC business. ButN guess what, they are still at it. But instinct tells me that this is strategicI spending out of the marketing budgets. Make nice PCs and laptops, providenJ excellent service, documentation etc, and that will give decision makers aL very good impressiuon of IBM and when the time comes to choose an enterprise' system, they will be favourable to IBM..  I What is clear is that IBM is using the PC as a markleting tool isntead ofm betting its business on it.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:38:02 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>- Subject: Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPFsC Message-ID: <KjRT7.217270$tf5.14799168@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>M  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messageB8 news:M1MT7.17756$Sj1.10317439@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...   ...    > Standardizing on a single CPUrF > architecture (albeit one that's not yet ready for prime time) in the futureG > will eliminate a lot of duplicated effort in the ISSG, HPSD, and NSD.   G Just like standardizing on a single model, or even engine series, woulde1 eliminate a lot of duplicated effort at, say, GM.m  F And it even makes sense when nothing is lost in the process.  But whenK important differentiating capabilities disappear as a result, the economiesnI achieved by the consolidation can pale in comparison to the opportunitiesy lost.r   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Dec 2001 18:51:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)v- Subject: Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPFi3 Message-ID: <6ZsLcjeCWbnq@eisner.encompasserve.org>/  p In article <KjRT7.217270$tf5.14799168@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > A > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message : > news:M1MT7.17756$Sj1.10317439@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >  > ...- >   >> Standardizing on a single CPUG >> architecture (albeit one that's not yet ready for prime time) in theo > futureH >> will eliminate a lot of duplicated effort in the ISSG, HPSD, and NSD. > I > Just like standardizing on a single model, or even engine series, wouldr3 > eliminate a lot of duplicated effort at, say, GM.  > H > And it even makes sense when nothing is lost in the process.  But whenM > important differentiating capabilities disappear as a result, the economiesVK > achieved by the consolidation can pale in comparison to the opportunities  > lost.  >   ? 	This rings true.  So you better differentiate yourself somehowrC 	or boxmakers like Dell will wipe out hoped for production margins.H  > 	Maybe the idea is there is or will be plenty to go around forE 	everyone.  After all, I suspect Windoze clusters even 4-5 years downiE 	the road will still require a PDS and a backup DS, several failoversFB 	, etc... so you need double or three times the boxes of a Unix orG 	VMS cluster but it still wins the day as many in-house will know wheret 	to point and click.    				Rob   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:31:42 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> - Subject: Re: InForm article about Alpha & IPF., Message-ID: <3C1FFC0A.4781A876@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:eD > It matters if you want to cut costs. Standardizing on a single CPUM > architecture (albeit one that's not yet ready for prime time) in the future-G > will eliminate a lot of duplicated effort in the ISSG, HPSD, and NSD.l  L The only duplication will be the DS10/DS20 type of systems/workstations. TheM remainder of the VMS enterprise systems will not have much in common with thenL wintel servers, and NSK servers will certaintly have totally different stuff in them.  N Will. the Wildfire equivalents in IA64 share the same motherboards with normal winter IA64 servers ?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:05:18 +0100u1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>'2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model5 Message-ID: <3C1F936E.52F28728@swissonline.delete.ch>d   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:r > 0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message9 > news:NsJT7.58496$pa1.20604902@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...r
 > > Kerry, > >oJ > > I agree with you for the most part, however you are mistaken about the > vastG > > majority of customers when you wrote your first paragraph, "Fwiw, Ii > > suspect..."  > >eM > > Most customers don't know what they want until advertising/marketing TELL  > > them what they want. > N > An outstanding heads-up for Compaq Marketing. Given that Compaq spends $300MJ > per year on marketing and advertising (or at least was supposed to do soJ > this year) it would seem that the resources are available to develop and > disseminate the message. > E > The effectiveness with which these resources have been leveraged ist > something else entirely...    1 The problem is always that the emphasis on PCs.  l  O I'm starting to wonder - like JF M - if Compaq haven't been betting the farm oneS Windows growing up and becoming Enterprise level, thus displacing everything else. (S (See another post for an Inform article which mentions W 2000 on Itanium Enterpriser	 servers.)o  J The wild-card has been Linux and its explosive growth.  If Linux gains theU high-ground in Enterprise systems, then Redmond bugware is going to find it very harda to displace.  S Maybe the "reconsideration" of Linux on Alpha is Compaq's belated attempt to have ah bit of money each way.     John McLean)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:10:11 +0100i1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>e2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model5 Message-ID: <3C1F9493.A586B210@swissonline.delete.ch>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > 3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messager+ > news:u1ue2pljbit8c4@corp.supernews.com...  > >uM > > There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article 1)mJ > > That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership 2) ThatK > > technology leadership _only_ works if you can create something that thepO > > market values.  The mistake that is often made is to assume that technologydN > > leadership by itself (i.e. technology for the sake of technology) will winK > > the day.  It only works it the customer values that difference.  If the"P > > customer doesn't value it  they won't pay the premium price.  Customers makeO > > that call based upon a business decision and not a engineering basis.  Just L > > because the engineers appreciate its doesn't mean the folks who make the, > > business decisions will appreciate it... > >  > N > I completely concur with Jeff on Number 2 above. That's the theme of MichaelK > Capellas' 12 June "Transformation" memo and it appears to be reflected indJ > some of the work that's going on in the HPSD, NSD, and ISSG (QuickBlade,L > Marvel, Yosemite). The QuickBlade/Future Enterprise Server strategy hingesJ > largely on software as a differentiator... stuff like Galaxy and WindowsD > Resource Partition Manager, CIM, etc will start to really pay off. > M > At least that is the plan. WRT to Number One above, is Compaq maintaining aoE > sufficient level of R&D expenditure to "make it so?" There has beenuA > significant downsizing in Compaq Research over the past year...u    R Whatever Compaq makes - hardware, processors, software, services - it all comes toQ nothing if the potential customer doesn't know that it has those products or whatm those products offer..  R Hell, if Compaq had invented Internet 20 years ago we would probably not be having) this kind of online discussion right now.     	 John McL.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:10:44 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model> Message-ID: <UwMT7.17781$Sj1.10333130@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C1F936E.52F28728@swissonline.delete.ch...g >l >s > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >i2 > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message; > > news:NsJT7.58496$pa1.20604902@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...) > > > Kerry, > > >lL > > > I agree with you for the most part, however you are mistaken about the > > vastI > > > majority of customers when you wrote your first paragraph, "Fwiw, Ie > > > suspect..."s > > >rJ > > > Most customers don't know what they want until advertising/marketing TELL > > > them what they want. > >eJ > > An outstanding heads-up for Compaq Marketing. Given that Compaq spends $300MaL > > per year on marketing and advertising (or at least was supposed to do soL > > this year) it would seem that the resources are available to develop and > > disseminate the message. > >eG > > The effectiveness with which these resources have been leveraged ise > > something else entirely... >f >d1 > The problem is always that the emphasis on PCs.  >pI > I'm starting to wonder - like JF M - if Compaq haven't been betting thef farm on C > Windows growing up and becoming Enterprise level, thus displacingl everything else.  L I wouldn't be surprised if there are such factions within CPQ, but I suspectK such factions reside primarily in Houston. The DEC Classic folks bet on thedJ Windows horse back in the early-mid 90s and look what it got them: a Risky Affinity Scheme.  ' Will Windows grow up? Almost certainly.i  % WHEN will Windows grow up? Who knows!n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:14:49 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model> Message-ID: <JAMT7.17784$Sj1.10335026@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C1F9493.A586B210@swissonline.delete.ch...  >r >, > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n > > 5 > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messager- > > news:u1ue2pljbit8c4@corp.supernews.com...  > > >eL > > > There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article 1)L > > > That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership 2) ThatI > > > technology leadership _only_ works if you can create something thatt theeF > > > market values.  The mistake that is often made is to assume that
 technologyL > > > leadership by itself (i.e. technology for the sake of technology) will win I > > > the day.  It only works it the customer values that difference.  If  the B > > > customer doesn't value it  they won't pay the premium price. Customers makeK > > > that call based upon a business decision and not a engineering basis.o JustJ > > > because the engineers appreciate its doesn't mean the folks who make thee. > > > business decisions will appreciate it... > > >b > >lH > > I completely concur with Jeff on Number 2 above. That's the theme of Michael J > > Capellas' 12 June "Transformation" memo and it appears to be reflected inL > > some of the work that's going on in the HPSD, NSD, and ISSG (QuickBlade,G > > Marvel, Yosemite). The QuickBlade/Future Enterprise Server strategy5 hingesL > > largely on software as a differentiator... stuff like Galaxy and WindowsF > > Resource Partition Manager, CIM, etc will start to really pay off. > >(A > > At least that is the plan. WRT to Number One above, is Compaqh
 maintaining apG > > sufficient level of R&D expenditure to "make it so?" There has beenrC > > significant downsizing in Compaq Research over the past year...s >c >fK > Whatever Compaq makes - hardware, processors, software, services - it allp comes toK > nothing if the potential customer doesn't know that it has those productst or whatp > those products offer.r  " Preaching to the choir, my friend!   >iJ > Hell, if Compaq had invented Internet 20 years ago we would probably not	 be havingu+ > this kind of online discussion right now.M >n  + Wasn't it Algore who invented the Internet?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:04:15 +0100.1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>,2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model5 Message-ID: <3C1FA13F.C30809DC@swissonline.delete.ch>    Jeff Killeen wrote:d > L > There has been a group of posters in various newsgroup continuously takingK > shots at Compaq based on what I consider to be based on wholly uninformed $ > positions about Compaq's history.    ... (snipped)...  A Sorry Jeff but I think the authors are barking up the wrong tree.f    T This is not 1982 (?) when Compaq developed something novel and very competitive (but. still profitable) against the slow-moving IBM.  O This is 2001 when people like Dell have developed a business model that is veryr+ competitive against the slow-moving Compaq.l  T This is not a time when Compaq can assemble its own PCs with its own components, butK a time when most of the PC industry has moved offshore to contract-assemblyhM companies, and work with mass-produced componentry from specialist companies..  O The authors suggest that Compaq should go back to being innovative.  To a smallhT extent it has worked but the iPaq sales are not enough to rescue the whole Compaq PCP division. Losses of 485 million dollars this year are not smart, nor is a measly+ profit of less than $250 million last year.p  R The idea of iPaq was fine but it doesn't take long for the competition to appear. P Here, for example is some info about the Toshiba Pocket PC e570 which looks very
 competitive (AJ http://www.zdnet.com/supercenter/stories/overview/0,12069,531282,00.html )    S To flip the problem over, Compaq bought some very innovative stuff from Digital andsS about from the Storage stuff, they have done very little with it.  As I showed someCT time ago, diverting just 5% of the money to pay for PCs into the "Enterprise" sector2 could easily return about 15 times more in income.  S Compaq didn't always make such poor income from PCs.  I haven't checked the figuresoS but I believe that the return on investment for PCs between 1994 and 1997 was about!U 12% but in 1998 it fell to 6.3%.  By contrast Dell's income went from $944 million in O 1997 to $1460 in 1998, a jump of 56% !  (Dell's business model was far superiorR& because it kept the costs right down.)  R Instead of becoming innovative with its new purchases, Compaq had a closed mindsetP that kept it bound to the PC market regardless of how non-productive it was (andS is).  The brilliant innovative drive of Compaq founders (Rod Canion, Jim Harris and ! Bill Murto) has long disappeared.M    T I had hoped to find what happened to these guys but time is against me and I'll giveR you two quotes from Rod Canion (as reported in Robert X Cringely's "Triumph of the9 Nerds" on the web at http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part2.html)   u Rod Canion:tU   And the way we did it was by having low overhead. IBM had low cost of product but a / lot of overhead - they were a very big company.e  ....r Rod Canion:-R   And by keeping our overhead low even though our margins were low we were able to make a profit.    9 So what are are we left with and where should Compaq go ?l  S Right now we have a company who is floundering in a dead market and seems reluctanteP to push the envelope and get serious about real Enterprise computing.  They haveU dumped a perfectly good car just to catch a ride on the Intel bus.  They have decideduU to hang onto the coat-tails of Microsoft rather than go it alone.  They want to be aneS "industry standard" box maker, to run with the pack, which of course means to be asu mediocre as everyone elsea  M If Canion, Harris and Murto were not afraid to be different, not afraid to beeP inventive, then why the hell can't Compaq do so now, albeit several steps up theU computing level ?  They should never have dumped Alpha but they should have pushed itPT as hard as they could, and then some more.  Instead we got to see Kamikaze Compaq inE all its glory (?), first with Alpha and then with HP.  Pity really...e    % That's my 2 cents worth (plus tax)...-     John McLeana   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:44:29 GMTe  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model+ Message-ID: <3C1FAAB4.C2D14CCE@prodigy.net>i   JF Mezei wrote:n >  <snip>P > How many companies need to fail before everyone puts 2+2 together and realisesN > that companies that bet 6the farm on wintel ruling the enterprise lose their > shirts and cease to exist ?   ' Consider in that vein SGI's experience.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:21:34 GMTs  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model+ Message-ID: <3C1FB363.DAA13C62@prodigy.net>.  K I'm not sure where this argument fits into the big picture -- CPQ PCs have  L always, AFAIK, been considered more "proprietary" than those of Dell, which K tends to use more name brand third party boards.  At least that's how I see: it.I  G So Compaq's arguments about being "industry standard" actually suggest n buying Dell gear, IMHO.M   Jeff Killeen wrote:< > M > Well said Ben - marginal engineering advances at best that come at the cost.5 > of locking someone into an expensive product set...l > 6 > "Ben Myers" <ben_myers@charter.net> wrote in message+ > news:3c1f4c4d.1805687@news.charter.net...a	 > > Jeff,l > >dG > > I agree with your statements about technology leadership.  What hasl
 > happened atnM > > Compaq and many other places is that the marketeers corrupt the engineersn > minds K > > into equating technology leadership with highly proprietary.  A furthernL > > corruption of the corporate occurs when collective group think convinces > itselfJ > > that highly proprietary is truly superior, when, in fact, it is only a	 > vehicle-N > > for locking the customer into expensive technology, not necessarily better > thanI > > well-designed commodity stuff.  Show me the value and the benefits ofW > highlyL > > proprietary technology, and I'll buy.  More often than not the value andM > > benefits accrue to the manufacturer, not the customer.  And that explainsn > a lotr5 > > of failures in the computer industry... Ben Myers1 > >SH > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:36:32 -0500, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> > wrote: > >  > > >iC > > >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in messageu3 > > >news:3C1EE3EE.D4B0450@swissonline.delete.ch...  > > >>K > > >> I'm not so sure that our opinions are "uninformed" Jeff, we can readg > thei > > >financialN > > >> statements and see that Enterprise stuff returns about 10 times as much > > >income as PCsN > > >> for every dollar spent.  Against that we see Compaq making little or no > > >visible0 > > >> attempt to expand that Enterprise market. > > > J > > >The "uninformed" part is many portraying Compaq as a company built onN > > >pushing out mass market PC boxes rather than understanding that what madeG > > >Compaq successful was engineering leadership in their marketplace.e > > >gM > > >It is in Compaq's nature, and as the article pointed out its likely pathd > toN > > >success, to provide technology leadership.  I believe management has come > toN > > >understand the folly of competing with Dell on Dell's terms.  What CompaqG > > >will do is return to its business model and position itself as the	N > > >technology leader in servers.  That is good for Tru64/OVMS/NSK.  Once theJ > > >QuickBlade and Storageworks technologies are fully implemented in the > nextM > > >30 months Compaq will be in a very strong position to provide technologyoH > > >leadership across all server markets and make money doing it.  What > causedL > > >Compaq's current problems is not WinTel but becoming obsessed with Dell > andeL > > >trying to play Dell's game (which they are weak at) rather than playing > > >Compaq's game.e > > >SM > > >What that article added to my thinking was this - I have always believediG > > >companies that attempt to charge a premium price for technology byl > providingaI > > >technology leadership always get into trouble as the market matures.A > WhatN > > >that article correctly pointed out is there an emerging sweet spot in theG > > >server market and that Dell's business model can't fill it without  > breaking.sK > > >At least for the next 4-5 years Compaq's business model should work ing > thatK > > >sweet spot.  Until that sweat spot becomes commodity technology Compaq  > canm	 > > >win.y > > >mN > > >There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article 1)K > > >That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership 2) ThattL > > >technology leadership _only_ works if you can create something that theE > > >market values.  The mistake that is often made is to assume thato > technologyK > > >leadership by itself (i.e. technology for the sake of technology) willt > winhL > > >the day.  It only works it the customer values that difference.  If theL > > >customer doesn't value it  they won't pay the premium price.  Customers > makeJ > > >that call based upon a business decision and not a engineering basis. > JustM > > >because the engineers appreciate its doesn't mean the folks who make then- > > >business decisions will appreciate it...h > > >e > > >  > > >  > > >' > >r
 > > Ben Myers- > > Spirit of Performance, Inc.e > > 73 Westcott Road > > Harvard, MA 01451d > > tel: 978-456-3889v > > eFax: 810-963-0412$ > > PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:37:17 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model+ Message-ID: <9voget$73j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>s  ` In article <tbgu1u4261inuvoagaa1hkpbqak0j0f2ko@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:D >On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:41:37 GMT, ben_myers@charter.net (Ben Myers) >wrote:- >- >> So why replace computerseQ >>which are perfectly adequate for the usual office suite of stuff plus email andhR >>some internet browsing?   In addition, the total cost of ownership of a computerR >>includes the SOFTWARE, and the latest full-featured MICROSOFT office software isQ >>prohibitively expensive.   So is XP, especially with its onerous and cumbersome  > E >Sun are advertising in the UK with a poster size leaflet which has a1F >background of colour sky with clouds (XP desktop) and simply the word >"XPensive" in the foreground.       XP   X = Ex = Old, stales  	 P = Urine    XP = Stale Urine     :)h    $ Someone open the windows please.  :)    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:47:32 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model> Message-ID: <UPOT7.17801$Sj1.10396623@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messager% news:3C1FB363.DAA13C62@prodigy.net... L > I'm not sure where this argument fits into the big picture -- CPQ PCs haveG > always, AFAIK, been considered more "proprietary" than those of Dell,  whichsI > tends to use more name brand third party boards.  At least that's how Io see  > it.a  I Interesting... and note that Compaq simply cannot put out a press releaseeJ that contains the word "ProLiant" without the obligatory INDUSTRY STANDARD prefix.e  I At the ProLiant level Compaq may have a point. The desktop may be another, story.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:02:14 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model@ Message-ID: <aOQT7.52475$Zd.4823571@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message ) news:u1v21rfbaj7p31@corp.supernews.com...e >o7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageh? > news:wOHT7.212512$tf5.14397088@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...m > >a5 > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messageb- > > news:u1ue2pljbit8c4@corp.supernews.com...n > >  > > ...M > > L > > > There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article > 1)D > > > That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership > >mH > > That's a laugh-and-a-half.  Perhaps you meant that Compaq's business model>K > > *should be* based on technology leadership.  Its current (this quarter,9K > > anyway) model, from what Capellas says, is based on providing services.  >iJ > Bill it is truly regrettable that you feel the you can so forcibly speakD > about Compaq's past when you clear are in so little command of the	 knowledgeyI > required to do so.  I suspect it is a market you had little involvementaL > beyond walking by the PC aisle at Circuit City.  As I said there are folksK > who post in this newsgroup about Compaq with very little understanding ofi" > its past of corporate culture...  J Back to being an asshole as well as an idiot, eh?  What Compaq's corporateK culture *used* to be has nothing to do with what you stated (or do you havea: difficulty understanding what the definition of "is" is?).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:56:45 GMT ' From: ben_myers@charter.net (Ben Myers)c2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model0 Message-ID: <3c1ff1ac.44147856@news.charter.net>  M Nope.  The Dell OptiPlex models have always been about as non-standard as youeN can get as far as motherboard form factor and case are concerned.  In the mid-P to late- Pentium days, Dell began imposing on Intel to put a non-standard wiringO harness connector on the Dimension motherboards, instead of the usual one whereCL you connect up wire leads.  So there is no easy way to put in an aftermarketM motherboard.  I think (but I'm not dead sure) that the Dell PowerEdge serversa+ use off-the-shelf Intel-made server boards.s  N Now for Compaq.  Based on current products, the junky little Presarios all useM standard micro-ATX motherboards.  The small form factor DeskPros are oddball.CE They have to be to fit in a small space.  The larger DeskPros use themH quasi-standard (everyone deviates from the Intel written definition) NLXN motherboard and riser card.  The AP-series workstations are wierd wierd wierd.A The Compaq servers all seem to have custom-designed motherboards.e  J For the rest of the components, they both use off the shelf generic items,J albeit with some more stringent quality standards for the parts that go inC servers.  And notebooks are always a mix of proprietary designs and  off-the-shelf hardware.i  P To me, it looks like almost a deal heat, with Dell leading on non-proprietary byM the size of Michael Dell's nose.  But it just goes to show you that you can'teL tell a horse by its color or brand, and you MUST look a gift computer in theN chassis.  Geez, you'd think I hung out at the race track.  Nope.  I didn't bet on Enron either... Ben Myers  C On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:21:34 GMT, cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote:n  L >I'm not sure where this argument fits into the big picture -- CPQ PCs have M >always, AFAIK, been considered more "proprietary" than those of Dell, which lL >tends to use more name brand third party boards.  At least that's how I see >it. >TH >So Compaq's arguments about being "industry standard" actually suggest  >buying Dell gear, IMHO. >d >Jeff Killeen wrote: >> lN >> Well said Ben - marginal engineering advances at best that come at the cost6 >> of locking someone into an expensive product set... >>  7 >> "Ben Myers" <ben_myers@charter.net> wrote in messageg, >> news:3c1f4c4d.1805687@news.charter.net...
 >> > Jeff, >> >H >> > I agree with your statements about technology leadership.  What has >> happened atN >> > Compaq and many other places is that the marketeers corrupt the engineers >> mindsL >> > into equating technology leadership with highly proprietary.  A furtherM >> > corruption of the corporate occurs when collective group think convinces 	 >> itselfoK >> > that highly proprietary is truly superior, when, in fact, it is only a 
 >> vehicleO >> > for locking the customer into expensive technology, not necessarily betteri >> thanmJ >> > well-designed commodity stuff.  Show me the value and the benefits of	 >> highlycM >> > proprietary technology, and I'll buy.  More often than not the value and N >> > benefits accrue to the manufacturer, not the customer.  And that explains >> a lot6 >> > of failures in the computer industry... Ben Myers >> >I >> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:36:32 -0500, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>o	 >> wrote:g >> > >> > >D >> > >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message4 >> > >news:3C1EE3EE.D4B0450@swissonline.delete.ch... >> > >>IL >> > >> I'm not so sure that our opinions are "uninformed" Jeff, we can read >> the >> > >financialyO >> > >> statements and see that Enterprise stuff returns about 10 times as mucho >> > >income as PCs O >> > >> for every dollar spent.  Against that we see Compaq making little or no 
 >> > >visible 1 >> > >> attempt to expand that Enterprise market.g >> > >K >> > >The "uninformed" part is many portraying Compaq as a company built on.O >> > >pushing out mass market PC boxes rather than understanding that what madeoH >> > >Compaq successful was engineering leadership in their marketplace. >> > >N >> > >It is in Compaq's nature, and as the article pointed out its likely path >> tokO >> > >success, to provide technology leadership.  I believe management has come  >> to O >> > >understand the folly of competing with Dell on Dell's terms.  What CompaqaH >> > >will do is return to its business model and position itself as theO >> > >technology leader in servers.  That is good for Tru64/OVMS/NSK.  Once theeK >> > >QuickBlade and Storageworks technologies are fully implemented in thea >> nexttN >> > >30 months Compaq will be in a very strong position to provide technologyI >> > >leadership across all server markets and make money doing it.  Whati	 >> causedeM >> > >Compaq's current problems is not WinTel but becoming obsessed with Delle >> andM >> > >trying to play Dell's game (which they are weak at) rather than playingc >> > >Compaq's game. >> > >N >> > >What that article added to my thinking was this - I have always believedH >> > >companies that attempt to charge a premium price for technology by >> providingJ >> > >technology leadership always get into trouble as the market matures. >> What O >> > >that article correctly pointed out is there an emerging sweet spot in thecH >> > >server market and that Dell's business model can't fill it without >> breaking.L >> > >At least for the next 4-5 years Compaq's business model should work in >> that L >> > >sweet spot.  Until that sweat spot becomes commodity technology Compaq >> can
 >> > >win. >> > >O >> > >There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article 1)rL >> > >That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership 2) ThatM >> > >technology leadership _only_ works if you can create something that theaF >> > >market values.  The mistake that is often made is to assume that
 >> technologyiL >> > >leadership by itself (i.e. technology for the sake of technology) will >> winM >> > >the day.  It only works it the customer values that difference.  If thehM >> > >customer doesn't value it  they won't pay the premium price.  Customerso >> make K >> > >that call based upon a business decision and not a engineering basis.e >> JusttN >> > >because the engineers appreciate its doesn't mean the folks who make the. >> > >business decisions will appreciate it... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > Ben Myers  >> > Spirit of Performance, Inc. >> > 73 Westcott Roadr >> > Harvard, MA 01451 >> > tel: 978-456-3889 >> > eFax: 810-963-0412e% >> > PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.Q  	 Ben Myers8 Spirit of Performance, Inc.. 73 Westcott Road Harvard, MA 01451o tel: 978-456-3889  eFax: 810-963-0412 @  PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:05:41 -0500.  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model4 Message-ID: <1011218205459.418B-100000@Ives.egh.com>   On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, cjt wrote:   M > I'm not sure where this argument fits into the big picture -- CPQ PCs have  N > always, AFAIK, been considered more "proprietary" than those of Dell, which M > tends to use more name brand third party boards.  At least that's how I see  > it.l > I > So Compaq's arguments about being "industry standard" actually suggest   > buying Dell gear, IMHO.a  C Actually, Dells are pretty proprietary.  Non-standard motherboards,eC power supplies and cases.  I have an old Dell XPS P90 (an extremelyhD popular model.)  The CPU could not be upgraded, even though the mostC other P90's would accept an Evergreen or other CPU upgrade, becauseoF the motherboard is a custom Dell job.  I can't replace the motherboardB because the mounting holes and port locations are non-standard, at> least without chomping holes in the case and/or welding on newA standoffs.  If I did that, I would also have to replace the power A supply, since the power pinouts are a weird mix of AT and ATX.  Ia4 understand current Dell systems are just as strange.  > Compaq PCs also have a reputation for being weirdly different.  B My newest PC is a Micron, which seems to be made of standard partsB (more or less...)  Of course the sound card is from a company thatC has since gone out of business.  Fortunately, it seems to work fineeA in Sound-Blaster compatibility mode, and I don't really care veryr4 much about the fancy features (surround sound, etc.)   -- t John Santosy Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:49:19 -0500s& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model/ Message-ID: <u2072khhhit20a@corp.supernews.com>h  K Bill I understand anyone who disagree with the great sage Todd is an idiot. K I join the authors of the original article in being on the Todd idiot list.eJ Compaq's _business model_ is based on technology leadership as I have saidF that in the past and the article that was the original posting in thisK thread pointed it out also.  Compaq's current _strategy_ for providing thatXG technology leadership is through enterprise integration services.  That E strategy is still very much in line with the Compaq business model ofsJ bringing to the marketplace a value add of technology leadership over whatK you can get by doing business with a company based on commodity technology. L Compaq's business model is deeply rooted in its past culture.  It's businessJ model is the gestalt of the enterprise and not easily changed.  It is veryK difficult for a company to change its business model and it only works whenoL the company finds a "new to the marketplace" model and always fails when the2 company attempts a "me too" business model change.  I The whole point of the original article was Compaq needs to do what makes.G its business model work - meaning develop a strategy that works for its>K business model.  Of course if you don't understand the difference between aQ8 business model and a strategy that would explain much...    5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messager: news:aOQT7.52475$Zd.4823571@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >S3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagea+ > news:u1v21rfbaj7p31@corp.supernews.com...d > >f9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageIA > > news:wOHT7.212512$tf5.14397088@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...r > > >e7 > > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messagee/ > > > news:u1ue2pljbit8c4@corp.supernews.com...e > > >P	 > > > ...n > > >IF > > > > There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that article  > > 1)F > > > > That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership > > >oJ > > > That's a laugh-and-a-half.  Perhaps you meant that Compaq's business > modeleD > > > *should be* based on technology leadership.  Its current (this quarter,C > > > anyway) model, from what Capellas says, is based on providingo	 services.t > >tL > > Bill it is truly regrettable that you feel the you can so forcibly speakF > > about Compaq's past when you clear are in so little command of the > knowledge K > > required to do so.  I suspect it is a market you had little involvement H > > beyond walking by the PC aisle at Circuit City.  As I said there are folks J > > who post in this newsgroup about Compaq with very little understanding of$ > > its past of corporate culture... >CL > Back to being an asshole as well as an idiot, eh?  What Compaq's corporateH > culture *used* to be has nothing to do with what you stated (or do you have< > difficulty understanding what the definition of "is" is?). >d > - bill >d >  >l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:04:48 -0500 & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model/ Message-ID: <u207vkdbasr025@corp.supernews.com>o  I If the proprietary technology (really uniqueness of the technology) value1K add is to achieve something the _customer_ values the customer will buy it.tJ If the proprietary value add serves the vendor's value proposition and notJ the customer's value proposition the customer will seek other solutions as soon as they are presented.t  I FYI - When Compaq delivered a new unique technology to the marketplace it J would as a rule adopt the market driven version in the future.  It knew ifI the technology remained proprietary to Compaq it would not survive in the I market.  This is why many Compaq WinTel boxes need unique drivers.  TheseoI were the first boxes on the market to deliver a specific technology.  ThelE follow-on generation is not provided by Compaq and Compaq adopts thatfL follow-on generation in place of its original generation.  After Digital wasI purchased by Compaq one of the first questions I asked their PC folks waspJ why the strange drivers.  Their response was if I checked I would find theI strange drivers were because Compaq brought that technology to the marketmG first but always moved to follow-on generation that wasn't proprietary.C    - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messageo% news:3C1FB363.DAA13C62@prodigy.net...lL > I'm not sure where this argument fits into the big picture -- CPQ PCs haveG > always, AFAIK, been considered more "proprietary" than those of Dell,h whichrI > tends to use more name brand third party boards.  At least that's how I9 seef > it.6 >.H > So Compaq's arguments about being "industry standard" actually suggest > buying Dell gear, IMHO.' >u > Jeff Killeen wrote:p > >RJ > > Well said Ben - marginal engineering advances at best that come at the cost7 > > of locking someone into an expensive product set...t > >d8 > > "Ben Myers" <ben_myers@charter.net> wrote in message- > > news:3c1f4c4d.1805687@news.charter.net...o > > > Jeff,  > > >nI > > > I agree with your statements about technology leadership.  What haso > > happened ateE > > > Compaq and many other places is that the marketeers corrupt theo	 engineersn	 > > mindseE > > > into equating technology leadership with highly proprietary.  Aw further/D > > > corruption of the corporate occurs when collective group think	 convincesv
 > > itselfL > > > that highly proprietary is truly superior, when, in fact, it is only a > > vehicleoI > > > for locking the customer into expensive technology, not necessarilyl better > > thanK > > > well-designed commodity stuff.  Show me the value and the benefits of 
 > > highlyJ > > > proprietary technology, and I'll buy.  More often than not the value andoF > > > benefits accrue to the manufacturer, not the customer.  And that explains	 > > a lote7 > > > of failures in the computer industry... Ben Myersy > > >eJ > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:36:32 -0500, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>
 > > wrote: > > >  > > > > E > > > >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in messagea5 > > > >news:3C1EE3EE.D4B0450@swissonline.delete.ch...  > > > >>H > > > >> I'm not so sure that our opinions are "uninformed" Jeff, we can read > > the  > > > >financialK > > > >> statements and see that Enterprise stuff returns about 10 times asb much > > > >income as PCsJ > > > >> for every dollar spent.  Against that we see Compaq making little or noa > > > >visible2 > > > >> attempt to expand that Enterprise market. > > > > L > > > >The "uninformed" part is many portraying Compaq as a company built onK > > > >pushing out mass market PC boxes rather than understanding that what@ madeI > > > >Compaq successful was engineering leadership in their marketplace.1 > > > >1J > > > >It is in Compaq's nature, and as the article pointed out its likely path > > toK > > > >success, to provide technology leadership.  I believe management hasr come > > toI > > > >understand the folly of competing with Dell on Dell's terms.  Whati CompaqI > > > >will do is return to its business model and position itself as theeL > > > >technology leader in servers.  That is good for Tru64/OVMS/NSK.  Once theeL > > > >QuickBlade and Storageworks technologies are fully implemented in the > > nextD > > > >30 months Compaq will be in a very strong position to provide
 technologyJ > > > >leadership across all server markets and make money doing it.  What
 > > causedI > > > >Compaq's current problems is not WinTel but becoming obsessed witht Dell > > andiF > > > >trying to play Dell's game (which they are weak at) rather than playingo > > > >Compaq's game.e > > > >nF > > > >What that article added to my thinking was this - I have always believedI > > > >companies that attempt to charge a premium price for technology byt
 > > providing K > > > >technology leadership always get into trouble as the market matures.h > > WhatL > > > >that article correctly pointed out is there an emerging sweet spot in the I > > > >server market and that Dell's business model can't fill it withoutn
 > > breaking.hJ > > > >At least for the next 4-5 years Compaq's business model should work in > > thatF > > > >sweet spot.  Until that sweat spot becomes commodity technology Compaq > > cany > > > >win.e > > > >tE > > > >There are two things that I hope everyone takes away from that 
 article 1)H > > > >That Compaq's business model is based on technology leadership 2) ThatJ > > > >technology leadership _only_ works if you can create something that theMG > > > >market values.  The mistake that is often made is to assume that, > > technologyH > > > >leadership by itself (i.e. technology for the sake of technology) will > > win J > > > >the day.  It only works it the customer values that difference.  If the C > > > >customer doesn't value it  they won't pay the premium price.c	 Customers  > > makeL > > > >that call based upon a business decision and not a engineering basis. > > JustK > > > >because the engineers appreciate its doesn't mean the folks who make  thes/ > > > >business decisions will appreciate it...b > > > >m > > > >h > > > >c > > > >s > > >> > > > Ben Myers ! > > > Spirit of Performance, Inc.m > > > 73 Westcott Road > > > Harvard, MA 01451t > > > tel: 978-456-3889m > > > eFax: 810-963-0412& > > > PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:30:38 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)u Subject: M7493-PAe, Message-ID: <9vo5gu$23ln$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ? Can someone explain for me the purpose of the M7493-PA module?? ? It is listed as a Qbus to SCSI Converter, but I suspect this ist? a different interpretation of SCSI from what I have always comet> to understand.  Or am I mistaken and this could infact be used, to connect SCSI devices like disks or tapes.   bill   -- wJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:56:36 +0000o% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>f Subject: Re: M7493-PAh& Message-ID: <3C1FBB94.469F00F@iee.org>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > A > Can someone explain for me the purpose of the M7493-PA module??eA > It is listed as a Qbus to SCSI Converter, but I suspect this issA > a different interpretation of SCSI from what I have always come @ > to understand.  Or am I mistaken and this could infact be used. > to connect SCSI devices like disks or tapes.  ) From memory - i.e. don't trust this :-) -a' this is the board you add to a VAX 4000i) expander cab to allow SCSI (from a KZQSA)t( to be routed to the internal TLZ04/TLZ06( and off to the external SCSI connectors.% I cannot find the IPB to confirm this>
 right now ...>  ' If I'm right, it does not give you SCSIh) (you need a KZQSA to do that) but it does0+ allow the SCSI connection to be used within>* the cab in a somewhat less obviously hacky% way. A mid-to-late life addon for the> VAX 4000 cabs IIRC.    Antonioa   -- t   ---------------f- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orga   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:15:38 +0100l1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>p, Subject: Re: More about Alpha and the merger5 Message-ID: <3C1FA3EA.E3C24436@swissonline.delete.ch>a   Duane Sand wrote:u >   uA > My suggestion of the beginning of the 180-day initiative as the>> > "trial date" was way off -- this was only 3 weeks before the@ > deceased washed up on the riverbank.  But this perhaps is whenA > C. decided he was satisfied with the Intel negotiation and knewh > his exact timeline.e    4 Thanks Duane, that's exactly what I was looking for.  5 The 180-day initiative started on or about June 10th.a  P Just after the announcement of the HP merger proposal at the start of September,T Fiorina said - not just once but at least 2 times - that she had been discussing the* merger with Capellas for "several months".  P As I said last weekend, unless she is being very sloppy with precision (which isU unlikely for a CEO), this takes us back through August (1 month) and July (2 months),oR into June or even May, to (or even before) the time when you believe Capellas made6 his decision that he was satisfied with Intel's offer.  T In other words, these two major events took place very close together, so close thatN we cannot be certain which came first.  The Alpha decision may have come afterQ serious merger discussions were commenced with HP (or at least Fiorina) or it maygT have come at a time when there was a strong indication that a merger proposal was in8 the offering, even if it had not been discussed as such.  
 Thank you.     John McLean>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:46:17 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>, Subject: Re: More about Alpha and the merger> Message-ID: <tWNT7.17794$Sj1.10371876@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C1FA3EA.E3C24436@swissonline.delete.ch...1 >  >> > Duane Sand wrote:e > >d >iC > > My suggestion of the beginning of the 180-day initiative as the @ > > "trial date" was way off -- this was only 3 weeks before theB > > deceased washed up on the riverbank.  But this perhaps is whenC > > C. decided he was satisfied with the Intel negotiation and knewh > > his exact timeline.> >h >a6 > Thanks Duane, that's exactly what I was looking for. >I7 > The 180-day initiative started on or about June 10th.h  ) The Smoking Memo was dated June 12, 2001.>   >cG > Just after the announcement of the HP merger proposal at the start oft
 September,G > Fiorina said - not just once but at least 2 times - that she had been> discussing the, > merger with Capellas for "several months". >>H > As I said last weekend, unless she is being very sloppy with precision	 (which isaK > unlikely for a CEO), this takes us back through August (1 month) and July  (2 months),MF > into June or even May, to (or even before) the time when you believe
 Capellas made 8 > his decision that he was satisfied with Intel's offer.  K I have good reason to believe that Mr. Capellas and Ms. Fiorina began their C merger musings around midway thru 1H01, perhaps even a bit earlier.u   >:K > In other words, these two major events took place very close together, so0
 close that( > we cannot be certain which came first.   This would seem to be the case.e  ( > The Alpha decision may have come afterL > serious merger discussions were commenced with HP (or at least Fiorina) or it mayF > have come at a time when there was a strong indication that a merger proposal was in : > the offering, even if it had not been discussed as such.  K It's my understanding/presumption that the timing of the Alpha decision waseJ predicated on the visibility of 2FQ01 numbers. The decision supposedly wasD made when it became evident that 2FQ was gonna be rather squatulent.  H Whether there is any correlation between the IPF decision and the merger" decision remains IMHO speculative.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:20:23 +0100n1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> , Subject: Re: More about Alpha and the merger5 Message-ID: <3C1FC127.BD2F59CD@swissonline.delete.ch>s   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  >  ...i > M > It's my understanding/presumption that the timing of the Alpha decision wasyL > predicated on the visibility of 2FQ01 numbers. The decision supposedly wasF > made when it became evident that 2FQ was gonna be rather squatulent.  G It looks like "Enterprise" (ie. mainly Alpha) has been earning its keep H since 1998, this last quarter (Sep 01) appears to the first loss-maker. F OTOH, PCs have been a passenger for a long time - lost $450 million in( 99, $485 million to September this year.  D June figures (ie. 2nd quarter) were not great for Enterprise, but atE least it made $1.2 billion in income compared to a loss of about $4482 million by PCs.r  H It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Alpha has been supporting PCs for years.     John McL   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:49:29 GMTd4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>, Subject: Re: More about Alpha and the merger> Message-ID: <ZJPT7.17835$Sj1.10432984@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C1FC127.BD2F59CD@swissonline.delete.ch...d >i >dJ > It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Alpha has been supporting PCs for > years. >t  F Yep. The IT equivalent of the Welfare State. Transfer payments, income# redistribution, social engineering.d  , And all ForTheChildren, er Consumer Peecees!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:08:49 +0100m1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>n, Subject: Re: More about Alpha and the merger5 Message-ID: <3C202EF1.5D5EA66D@swissonline.delete.ch>e   John McLean wrote: >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o > >  > ...g > > O > > It's my understanding/presumption that the timing of the Alpha decision wascN > > predicated on the visibility of 2FQ01 numbers. The decision supposedly wasH > > made when it became evident that 2FQ was gonna be rather squatulent. ...a   > F > June figures (ie. 2nd quarter) were not great for Enterprise, but atG > least it made $1.2 billion in income compared to a loss of about $448e > million by PCs.l    H Sorry .. wrong sheet of paper...  That's what comes from writing late at night.  H June 2001 - Enterprise income = $74 million ... PC income = loss of $155 millionJ       John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:50:26 +0000c1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net>e1 Subject: Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questions9- Message-ID: <3C1FD641.8333C3BD@starpower.net>    "John E. Malmberg" wrote:I  : > [Excuse any extra blank lines please, known MOZILLA bug] >s > Robert DiRosario wrote:n >  > > 9 > > I set ALLCLASS to 2 and FORCEUNI to 1 for all drives.y >oC > The SYSGEN parameter ALLOCLASS needs to be set to 2 on all of thee7 > OpenVMS systems that are connected to the DSSI disks.a >aD > This will usually require that you set it in MODPARAMS.DAT and use+ > AUTOGEN to set the new system parameters.c >eE > It is a requirement that the ALLOCLASS sysgen parameter for OpenVMSs6 > matches the ALLCLASS parameter for the DSSI devices. >gI > In a cluster where a DSSI bus is connected to more than one host, it issB > required that the DSSI ALLCLASS and corresponding OpenVMS sysgen > ALLOCLASS parameter not be 0.i > J > I stated that in my first response.  Have you made sure that the OpenVMS  > SYSGEN parameters are correct? >kG > > The disk alloc. class on the HSD10 is 2, the tape alloc. class is 0n= > > and there are no SCSI devices connected to the HSD10 yet.e > I > If you do not plan to put any tape drives on the DSSI bus or HSD10, youe' > can ignore the tape allocation class.s >eI > If you plan to use tape devices on the DSSI bus or HSD10, then you mustiI > set a non-zero tape alloc. class, for both OpenVMS and the HSD1O.  Bothe  > must be set to the same value. > G > You can use the same value as ALLOCLASS, to be consistent, or you cani > use separate values. >0 >d= > > DSSI bus 1 is the "cluster bus".  This host is DSSI ID 7,r2 > > other systems will be at DSSI ID's 4, 5 and 6. >cJ > Ok, what are the other system types, and what type of DSSI interconnects0 > are being used?  This could also be important. >iA > The KFQSA interface can not be used for a cluster interconnect.  >e >o. > > DSSI ID, UNITNUM,  NODENAME, (Device type)& > >  1,       1,         "D1",  (RF73)& > >  2,       2,         "D2",  (RF72)? > >  3,       3,         "SYSTEM",  (RF72, cluster system disk)f > > 7 > > DSSI bus 0, this system only, host is at DSSI ID 7.r > >i- > > DSSI ID, UNITNUM, NODENAME, (Device type) & > >  0,        10,      "D10",  (RF35)& > >  1,        11,      "D11",  (RF35)& > >  2,        12,      "D12",  (RF72)& > >  3,        13,      "D13",  (RF72)) > >  6,        NA,      "HSD1",  (HSD10,)n > H > The HSD10 needs to have a value that is used as an offset for the SCSIG > lun numbers under it.  I forget the name of this parameter, as it hasr+ > been several years since I last did this.l >iB > If you do not set this offset, then you may have some conflicts. >t >m > > So, >>>show dev gives: > >  > >  DIA0 (RF35) D10 > >  DIA1 (RF35) D11 > >  DIA2 (RF72) D12 > >  DIA3 (RF72) D13 > >  DIA7 (HSX0) HSD16 > >  *  (7)o >y >t > > DIB1 (RF73) D1 > > DIB2 (RF72) D2 > > DIB3 (RF72) SYSTEM	 > > * (7)C > >e > > SCSI, Adapter 6e > >  -DKA300 (RZ35)o > >  -DKA400 (RRD45) > >l > > UQSSP disk controller 0r > > UQSSP tape controller 0d > >   -MUA0 (TK70) > >9 > > EZA0 > > XQA0 > > XQB0 > >r4 > > I'm not sure why the HSD10 is DIA7 and not DIA6. > E > I am not sure either.  The HSD10 is a bus translation device, not asF > SCSI device.  I do not remember it being visible at all until it has > some devices on it.i > F > It could be a configuration error.  The SCSI bus on it is terminated > correctly of course? >eH > I would review the HSD10 documentation and setup to find out why it is6 > showing up at all as a disk.  That just seems wrong. > " > > So the system sees everything. > >m" > > Boot VMS 7.1 and do "show dev" > >o > > VAXA$DKA300e > > VAXA$DKA400  > >  > > $2$DIA0 (D10)o > > $2$DIA1 (D1) > > $2$DIA2 (D12)r > > $2$DIA3 (SYSTEM) > > $2$DIA7 (HSD1) > >r" > > Three DSSI drives are missing! > >o5 > > If I set the drives on one bus to alloc. class 1,t1 > > the drives on the other bus to alloc. class 2i) > > and set FORCEUNI to 0 for all drives,x > > I see all of the drives: > >l > > $1$DIA0  > > $1$DIA1e > > $1$DIA2o > > $1$DIA3. > > $1$DIA7  > > $2$DIA1  > > $2$DIA2  > > $2$DIA3  > >r- > > Is there some other parameter on the DSSI  > > disks I need to set? > M > First can you verify that your SYSGEN parameter ALLOCLASS is set correctly?  > 1 > Then I usually use FORCEUNI of 0 on DSSI bus 0.  > H > And if there are HSD devices on the DSSI busses, I set the unit numberG > of the devices to be 1000 * bus # plus the plug id.  Before I startede3 > using HSD devices, I used 10 * bus + the plug id.n >:C > The SCSI devices on the HSD10 will show up as 10 * their SCSI id.tI > number, so I set it's offset so that the thousands digit corresponds to H > the DSSI bus number, and the 100s digit corresponds to the HSD number,H > starting at zero.  This allows you to look at an OpenVMS device number( > and tell directly where the device is. >t > This will give you:b > 
 > DSSI bus 0:t >     $2$DIA0: >     $2$DIA1: >     $2$DIA2: >     $2$DIA3:? >        And assuming 5 disk devices on the HSD10, and that the B >        HSD10 is plugged into slot 0 of a storageworks enclosure. >       $2$DIA10:m >       $2$DIA20:e >       $2$DIA30:i >       $2$DIA40:a >       $2$DIA50:  >I
 > DSSI bus 1:s >      $2$dia1001: >      $2$dia1002: >      $2$dia1003: >oH > Now if you decide to put the HSD10 on BUS 1, then the convention would& > have it the drives on it show up as: >         $2$dia1010:t >         $2$dia1020:  >         etc. >  >w > 8 > A Second HSD10 on BUS 1, I would configure as follows: >         $2$DIA1110:  >         $2$DIA1120:t >         etc: >OJ > Again, this is just a convention that I recommend as it makes it easy to8 > relate the physical disks to the OpenVMS device names. >lG > Since the ususal convention is to have the DIA0: device as the systemcB > disk, I assume that you have some reason to use a different one? > D > OpenVMS and the console rom do not care of course, but it could be2 > confusing if there are multiple system managers. >iG > Also, you can use more than one DSSI bus for the cluster interconnect 
 > traffic. >  > -Johnc > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Onlys >e
 > > Thanks > > Robert,t
 > > KA3ZYX > >a > >  >m > > "John E. Malmberg" wrote:  > >v > >  > >>Robert DiRosario wrote:p > >>G > >> > On a VAX 4000/106A with two DSSI buses, do the drives on the two I > >> > buses need to have the same allocation class, or can each bus havee$ > >> > a different allocation class? > >> >F > >> > I gave all the drives on one bus allocation class 1 and all theF > >> > drives on the second bus allocation class 2 and set UNITNUM andJ > >> > FORCEUNI to  0 on all the drives.  When I boot VMS 7.1 (from a SCSIJ > >> >  drive), "show dev" shows all the drives.  A VMS admin at work toldD > >> >  me the system won't serve the disks with this configuration. > >> >J > >> > If I set the allocation class on all drives to 1, FORCEUNI to 1 andJ > >> > give each drive a unit unit number "show dev" only sees some of the > >> > drives. > >> >% > >> > How do I configure the drives?i > >>; > >>All drives on a bus must have a uniquely numbered plug.  > >>H > >>When you do a >>>show device prompt, they should show up as DIAn and# > >>DIBn, where "n" is the plug ID.  > >>G > >>The allocation class of all non-SCSI drives on a system must be thebJ > >>same.  And it must match the ALLOCLASS SYSGEN parameter on any OpenVMS > >>hosts on the DSSI bus. > >>I > >>Now each DSSI drive must also have a unique unit number in a cluster.aK > >>This unit number defaults to the drive ID plug value.  Obviously with ayK > >>limit of 8 devices on a bus, with two buses, there are bound to be somer4 > >>duplicates unless UNITNUM and FORCEUNI are used. > >>L > >>To make things easy, I usually use the default plug values for the firstI > >>DSSI bus, and add an offset divisible by 10 to it for the second DSSIu > >>bus and subsequent ones. > >>H > >> > Also, do I need to set the SYSTEMID for each disk or will VMS set) > >> > that when I configure the cluster?i > >>H > >>The NODENAME of each DSSI element needs to be unique to the cluster.K > >>Normally the random name that it is factory initialized with is fine toaK > >>use.  If you do assign a name, use only 6 characters.  The elements can 9 > >>accept 8, but I am not sure if OpenVMS currently can.m > >>K > >>I have never changed the SYSTEMID of any DSSI elements.  I would expectt" > >>that it also should be unique. > >>	 > >>-John  > >>wb8tyw@qsl.network > >>Personal Opinion Only> > >>  F >Since the ususal convention is to have the DIA0: device as the systemA >disk, I assume that you have some reason to use a different one?e  G None of the 4000 or 3100 systems I have booted from (DIA/DKA/DKB)0 whenoG I got them.  I thought that seemed a bit odd.  (I got them from surplusd sales.)s  ; So I changed the disk configuration to a more standard one:p   Bus 0:  % (DSSI ID, UNITNUM, NODE NAME, device)o   0, 0, "SYSTEM", RF72 1, 1, "D1", RF72 2, 2, "D2", RF73 3, 3, "HSD1", HSD10e 5, will be a 4000/105A 6, will be a 4000/106A 7, 4000/106A   Bus 1a 0, 10, "D10", RF35 1, 11, "D11", RF35 2, 12, "D12", RF72 3, 13, "D13', RF72  I (The HSD10 is inside the 4000/106A.  I disconnected the power cable to itI< to simplify this configuration, until I get things working.)  I ALLCLASS is 2 on all disks. I added "ALLOCLASS=2" to modparms.dat and didhJ "sys$update:autogen getdata reboot nofeedback".  After the system rebooted! SYSGEN shows that ALLOCLASS is 2.. "show dev" gives:    $2$DIA0 D10  $2$DIA1 D11 
 $2$DIA2 D2 $2$DIA3 D13t  J Still missing drives, and it's not showing them all from bus 0 or all from bus 1.  C I noticed "VAXCLUSTER=0" in modparms.dat, so I changed it to 1, ranM autogen and rebooted.i "show dev" gives:j   $2$DIA0 SYSTEM
 $2$DIA1 D1
 $2$DIA2 D2
 $2$DIA3 D3    ( Better, it sees all the drives on bus 0!  C I noticed in sysgen that VAXCLUSTER can also be 2, so I tried that.-. Bad idea..."WAITING TO FORM A VAX CLUSTER...."  B I installed VMS on the SCSI disk so I could test and configure theC DSSI disks.  I now know they work, so I booted from the 7.1 VMS CD.h Standalone backup shows:   DKA300: RZ35 DKA400: DEC RRD45 
 MUA0: TK70 $2$DIA0: (D10, SYSTEM) RF35o $2$DIA2: (D2, D12) RF73  $2$DIA1: (D11, D1) RF35a $2$DIA3: (D13) RF72u  > Standalone backup sees everything!  Since backup seems to want? to map both the system disk and D10 to $2$DIA0 how do I install # VMS on the system disk and not D10?g   Thanks.e Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:37:12 -0500p5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.n0 Message-ID: <z9ST7.92$sK3.4334@news.cpqcorp.net>  G Or that you are a complete (can't say it here).  You want to claim thateD there is something VMS-specific based in something that contained noC information to base it on.  Let me know when the data is available.       5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messages: news:vjLT7.50633$Zd.4603817@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >aB > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, > news:TbJT7.63$sK3.3837@news.cpqcorp.net...L > > Read it again.  It could be that 100% of the VMS customers were staying, > and-J > > none had made a decision to dump Compaq.  We have *no* way of knowing. IsL > > the number 100% unlikely, but any other number is just a wild guess with > no > > data to base it on.h > >eL > > That is, the "report" is meaningless if you are looking at anything elseI > > other than "Alpha", if you try to look any closer, the only thing youw caneI > > say is that Tru64 customers today do not feel they can move to HP-UX.  And < > > that some "Alpha" customers have decided to dump Compaq. > D > Since the only remaining viable assumption is that you are utterly	 incapabledK > of parsing English (at least in the current context), I will cease tryinge to# > explain this conversation to you.y >a > - bill >n >o >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:43:28 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.m0 Message-ID: <sfST7.93$sK3.4106@news.cpqcorp.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C1F8FAC.6B8614F1@videotron.ca... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >iL > > Read it again.  It could be that 100% of the VMS customers were staying, andsJ > > none had made a decision to dump Compaq.  We have *no* way of knowing. IsL > > the number 100% unlikely, but any other number is just a wild guess with no > > data to base it on.n >' >f > "It could be"o >eI > Mr Kleinsorge, considering that VMS customers have been bettered by then ownernK > of VMS for so long, and considering the multiple whammies in the last fewsE > months (murder of Alpha, wedding of Curly-Carly, death of MPE, lifee
 support toI > be pulled from Tru64), I would think that anyone stuck on a proprietary  CompaqL > system (aka VMS) would think seriously about their position as slaves of aK > vendor who has clearly no intentions to grow VMS back to life and attractn4 > serious applications outside its narrowing niches. >   K "bettered"?  In any case, talk to me when you can eliminate things like the D "murder" of an inanimate object.  Nobody died.  No laws were broken.  L I can't speak for HP, MPE, or for Tru64.  In the case of OpenVMS, a businessK decision was made to discontinue future Alpha work beyond EV7 and speedups.tI We have provided plenty of time for this to happen, and a roadmap for how F VMS will continue after the EV7x systems become non-competetive in the marketplace.    H > Migrating VMS->Unix is not as easy as Unix->Unix. Understandably, many willK > not make a knee jerk decisions and say that for now they are staying put." ThisK > may make you happy, but I think that the mere fact that customers are nowAJ > considering the future (or lack thereof) of VMS is very bad news for VMS in > the medium/long term.w  H If you are using VMS today, you may well find that the features that youK depend on do not exist elsewhere, or only exist as pale substitutes.  If wehB do our jobs right, and execute to plan - perhaps we can keep those
 customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:17:50 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.b, Message-ID: <3C2030F9.A29B32B8@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > If you are using VMS today, you may well find that the features that youM > depend on do not exist elsewhere, or only exist as pale substitutes.  If we2D > do our jobs right, and execute to plan - perhaps we can keep those > customers.  K But while Compaq is busy preparing for the Alpha funeral and moving what ismL left of the Digital inheritance to Intel's stuff (IA64), Sun and IBM will be busy catching up to VMS.  N As the gap narrows between Unix and VMS, more and more VMS customers will findN that other Unix systems do provide the facilities that they use in VMS and hadH added bonus of many more applications and more importantly, a vendor whoA leaves no room for specualtion on the future of its own products.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:43:54 +0000m% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>:7 Subject: Re: nova (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)F' Message-ID: <3C1FC6AA.9EA2D4A7@iee.org>n   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:C! > Thanks for the definitive info.    "Definitive"? On the web? :-) F >                                I can see how, as per the info at theK > aforementioned site,  the phrase "no va" (literally "doesn't go") and thebM > word "nova" are distinct entities with different pronunciations in Spanish.r  1 "Nova" (exploding star) and "non va" (doesn't go,u+ broken, useless car .. take your pick :-) )c+ have distinct pronunciations in Italian tooy1 but I can't be the only one who can turn one intos, the other in less than an Alpha clock cycle.  5 ObDatum: I don't believe the UL for a moment, but the ( only Vauxhall I saw in Italy this summer was an Opel Kadett.-  H > Meanwhile, I must get back to my new job: taking a census of all thoseH > alligators that are hanging out in the New York City sewer system. ;-}   Snap to it!3   Antonio3   -- a   ---------------h- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:35:53 -0500   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: PALcode and SRM definitions6 Message-ID: <1011218152310.10323B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  * On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David D Miller wrote:  
 > Wizards: > H > I've looked around for some PALcode and SRM definitions but can't find. > anything very definitive.  I gather that ... > H > SRM console firmware (also called AlphaBIOS) provides the bridge (i.e.I > consistent software interface) between the hardware I/O devices and theeJ > software much like X86 BIOS does.  It also supports the interface to the > operator's console.s  D No, it is not much like x86 BIOS.  It is a boot console program.  ItI scans and tests the hardware at boot time, and stashes config informationpD in memory where VMS (or Unix) can see it.  It stores boot and configE options in CMOS (so they are remembered when power is off) and passescH them on to the OS at boot time.  It loads the O/S secondary boot programF from the system disk and transfers control to it.  Then it gets out ofE the way.  It is not involved in hardware I/O at all except during theuF initial stages of boot.  I'm not sure if the console interface uses itG either.  I think VMS drivers talk directly to the serial chips used forvB the keyboard and mouse.  The graphics drivers talk directly to theI graphics card.  I'm not sure what happens when you don't have a supportedrD card or haven't loaded the right driver and the console looks like a= glass TTY.  It might go through the SRM then, but I doubt it.  > M > PALcode provides the bridge between the Alpha architecture and OpenVMS (and  > maybe Tru64).s >   H PALcode provides extended instructions via a trapping mechanism.  ThingsG like interlocked queue instructions that aren't in the base instruction)D set.  PALcode is used by both VMS and Tru64, but it is different PALF code for the two O/S'es.  I don't know if PAL code is loaded by SRM or by the O/S as it boots.E    J > Elaborations and corrections greatly appreciated.  I'd like to read more# > about these two.  Any references?  >  > dave.R >  >  >    --   John Santos3 Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:56:24 +0100 & From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>( Subject: Re: PALcode and SRM definitions$ Message-ID: <3C1FAD78.31DF@c-lab.de>   John Santos wrote: > , > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David D Miller wrote: >  > > Wizards: > >>   > F > No, it is not much like x86 BIOS.  It is a boot console program.  ItK > scans and tests the hardware at boot time, and stashes config informationt, > in memory where VMS (or Unix) can see it.     What is called the HWRPB, right?    It stores boot and configG > options in CMOS (so they are remembered when power is off) and passes ! > them on to the OS at boot time.   6 The enviroment vars, like auto_action, bootdef_dev,...B Plus the ISA config table, if the board has ISA slots, in NVRAM or
 FlashROM.   C I would also add that, similar to a PC bios, it initializes the CPUtD registers, cache control, MMU, then also the basic I/O devices, likeA primary ethernet, SCSI, IDE, serial (console!), graphics (VGA x86eG emulator code), 8042 (PS/2 keyboard and mouse) and some other stuff. IfaF you run via serial console, there are hex numbers displayed before theG SRM prompt appears which are apparently some tests and initializations.o  )   It loads the O/S secondary boot programDH > from the system disk and transfers control to it.  Then it gets out ofG > the way.  It is not involved in hardware I/O at all except during the H > initial stages of boot.  I'm not sure if the console interface uses itI > either.  I think VMS drivers talk directly to the serial chips used foreD > the keyboard and mouse.  The graphics drivers talk directly to theK > graphics card.  I'm not sure what happens when you don't have a supportedDF > card or haven't loaded the right driver and the console looks like a? > glass TTY.  It might go through the SRM then, but I doubt it.i > >a  E It just looks still like the glass tty as it was in SRM and the earlyyB stages of VMS boot. I.e., the font does not change and there is no banner at the bottom.I    F > set.  PALcode is used by both VMS and Tru64, but it is different PALH > code for the two O/S'es.  I don't know if PAL code is loaded by SRM or > by the O/S as it boots.h >   F Should be SRM, as the versions number for VMS and Tru64 PALs are shown with 'show config'	 >>>sh paleE pal                     OpenVMS PALcode V1.21-9, Digital UNIX PALcodee V1.23-8e >>>      -- a* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:11:12 +0100a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>( Subject: Re: PALcode and SRM definitions' Message-ID: <3C1FB0F0.E98FDBD0@home.nl>A   David D Miller wrote:   
 > Wizards: >aH > I've looked around for some PALcode and SRM definitions but can't find. > anything very definitive.  I gather that ... > . > SRM console firmware (also called AlphaBIOS)  I The Alphabios is not the SRM ! The Alphabios is the bios that is used for E Win-NT and certain versions of Linux etc.  You can start it by typingIJ ARC<enter> on the SRM console, and then you will get a graphic console for these OS types.          > provides the bridge (i.e.nI > consistent software interface) between the hardware I/O devices and theeJ > software much like X86 BIOS does.  It also supports the interface to the > operator's console.c > M > PALcode provides the bridge between the Alpha architecture and OpenVMS (and  > maybe Tru64).o >oJ > Elaborations and corrections greatly appreciated.  I'd like to read more# > about these two.  Any references?  >e > dave.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:04:07 +0100q, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>3 Subject: Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IP & Message-ID: <3C1FBD57.ABB5D444@gmx.ch>   David B Sneddon wrote: > H > Is there something that needs to be done (and I'm not doing it) to getG > proxies to work with DECnet over IP?  And if so, could someone pleasesI > enlighten me.  I don't have paper copies of the DECnet manuals and have I > tried "searching" the HTML versions but that is a PITA and thusfar beenn > fruitlessi  P I have had the same experience as John. There is a curious "random" behaviour in% PROXY management with DECnet over IP.   F Sometimes, even when you have the full remote node name defined in theN decnet_register database, you need to add a proxy entry in the SYSUAF with the, numbered syntax of the node to make it work.  + i.e. UAF> add/proxy FOOBAR::SYSTEM FRED/DEFt+ and  UAF> add/proxy 25200::SYSTEM  FRED/DEF>  U I did a *LOT* of tests and didn't find any differences if you add the LOCAL:. syntax.   H Anyway, what HAS to be remembered is to flush the f*@#&^ cache, defaultJ retaining value is 30 days and not 7 as the doc sez (mail has been sent toT openvmsdoc@compaq.com). Do that EACH time you even *think* of using decnet_register.  	 Syntax isi  5 $ mc ncl flush session control naming cache entry "*"S  N There is somewhere a way to change this cache value from 30 days to one minute< but I'm home and I do not have (yet) my hobbyist Alpha here.  P Also, if a node has an OSI address not finishing with :20, just flush the cache,L deregister it, flush the cache, reregister it, flush the cache and flush the cache again. Should do it :-))   D. -- sG   --------------------------------------------------------------------- E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmluE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670c/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.u  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:52 -0800r0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>3 Subject: Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IPe, Message-ID: <3C1F6834.7D64756F@Mvb.Saic.Com>   David B Sneddon wrote: >  > Hi Folks,l >  > Scenario:> > H > Two nodes HOME and AWAY.  Seemingly any combination DECnet-Plus (/OSI). > on any version of OpenVMS on VAX or Alpha... > ? > On node AWAY I have a proxy "LOCAL:.HOME::DAVE DAVE/DEFAULT".a  G In order for this proxy to work, HOME must connect to AWAY via a DECnetAG protocol instead of IP.  You are specifying that the host exists in thehF LOCAL database, a database that contains no IP addresses, only NSP andE TP4 addresses.  Thus, the proxy record never matches the host you are  connecting from.  H If you add a proxy in the form of home.yourdomain.com::dave dave/defaultE it will work (as long as home is properly registered in the DNS).  In"G other words, add a proxy using the fully qualified domain name of home,eF don't just specify "home".  Also, leave off the LOCAL: part, this nameH is not being resolved from the LOCAL database, it is being resolved from# the IP DOMAIN database (i.e., DNS).2  " > I also have a UCX proxy defined.  G This only has an impact for IP protocols, such as the 'r' services.  Ito  has no impact on DECnet proxies.   > $ > On node HOME if I try to do a copy > 8 > HOME$ copy local.file away"DAVE password"::remote.file >  > it works fine. > 
 > If I try > ) > HOME$ copy local.file away::remote.files >  > it fails.d > H > Extracted from the "Access Control Violation" OPCOM message on AWAY...F >     NSAP Address=/AC110203           HOME's ip address is 172.17.2.3 >     Source=UIC = [0,0]DAVE >     Destination USer="DAVE", >     Node Name=LOCAL:.HOME. > C > The contents of the message look "OK" except for the NSAP Addresss: > which is not in the usual format of 49::00-01:AA-mumble.  B That is because 49::00-01::AA-mumble would only appear if you wereH communicating using NSP or TP4, you are using IP.  The value of the NSAPA address in this case is the IP address of the remote host, in hex1* (AC=172, 11=17, 02=2, 03=3 or 172.17.2.3).  H > Is there something that needs to be done (and I'm not doing it) to getG > proxies to work with DECnet over IP?  And if so, could someone pleaseoI > enlighten me.  I don't have paper copies of the DECnet manuals and have0I > tried "searching" the HTML versions but that is a PITA and thusfar beenM > fruitless.  F See above.  Specify the fully qualified domain name in the proxy entryH and do not specify it as being part of the LOCAL: database and it should start working for you.  
 Mark Berrymani Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:31:21 GMTl2 From: Gib Copeland <copeland@jenni.path.uiowa.edu>3 Subject: Re: Problem with proxies on DECnet over IPr1 Message-ID: <3C1FEFC1.70601@jenni.path.uiowa.edu>e  @ IMHO, proxies in DECnet-Plus are a mess (V7.3, but been that way@ for a long time).  Forget about the UCX proxy, it has no bearing
 on DECnet.  E Try adding a proxy as below, and when you wonder why it doesn't work,.E replace it with the second, or third..., until you get enough leadingn zeros:  4 1.   UAF> add /prox ip$172.17.2.3::dave dave/default  5 2.   UAF> add /prox ip$172/17.2.03::dave dave/defaulti  6 3.   UAF> add /prox ip$172.17.02.03::dave dave/default    " Somebody really ought to fix this.   Gib    --   David B Sneddon wrote:   > Hi Folks,a >  > Scenario:y > H > Two nodes HOME and AWAY.  Seemingly any combination DECnet-Plus (/OSI). > on any version of OpenVMS on VAX or Alpha... > ? > On node AWAY I have a proxy "LOCAL:.HOME::DAVE DAVE/DEFAULT".h" > I also have a UCX proxy defined. > $ > On node HOME if I try to do a copy > 8 > HOME$ copy local.file away"DAVE password"::remote.file >  > it works fine. > 
 > If I try > ) > HOME$ copy local.file away::remote.file  >  > it fails.z > H > Extracted from the "Access Control Violation" OPCOM message on AWAY...E >    NSAP Address=/AC110203           HOME's ip address is 172.17.2.3p >    Source=UIC = [0,0]DAVEm >    Destination USer="DAVE" >    Node Name=LOCAL:.HOME > C > The contents of the message look "OK" except for the NSAP AddressS: > which is not in the usual format of 49::00-01:AA-mumble. > H > Is there something that needs to be done (and I'm not doing it) to getG > proxies to work with DECnet over IP?  And if so, could someone pleaseiI > enlighten me.  I don't have paper copies of the DECnet manuals and have I > tried "searching" the HTML versions but that is a PITA and thusfar beens > fruitless. > 
 > Regards, > Dave.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:11:07 -0500f- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofty, Message-ID: <3C1F94C7.DD05AEC7@videotron.ca>   Wayne Sewell wrote:fM > Okay, so one of the Al Quaeda boys gets in and puts code into all the billynQ > systems to make them insecure and totally unusable.  How is that different froma > the current situation?  G a bug magically happens at a critical moment, rendering a battleship or.F aircraft carrier totally useless and defenseless. Worse such ship thenK mistakenly fires a missile at the white house. It is later revealed that Al N Queda put the bug and other hidden easter eggs in Microsoft's software because they had employees there.   K Consider the economic ramifications of such a news. Microsoft's stock wouldlF thumble, bringing down the stock market, and anything that uses NT forC anything serious would be shut down for fear it might kill people. o  M From a terrorist's point of view, such would be very effective way to instilla terror in the USA and outside.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:45:03 -0700 4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofto2 Message-ID: <kVNT7.619$uT5.160555@news.uswest.net>  L And the building structures did hold for the design time of at least an hour& before the structural steel collapsed. --
 Mike Ober.  H ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>C wrote in message news:00A06B38.B08B58B8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...bE > In article <9vnhrf$ris$1@joe.rice.edu>, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry: Leslie) writes:i3 > >Nigel Arnot (sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk) wrote:t > >:H > >: You mean as unbelievable as terrorists mounting a suicide attack on& > >: the WTC using hijacked airliners? > >n( > >It was JF that found it unbelievable. > >uJ > >The History Channel had filmed a show on the WTC earlier this year, and? > >decided to air it recently, as a tribute to the WTC victims.I > >lD > >It's very weird to hear one of the WTC's designers claim that the buildingH > >could withstand the impact of one or more Boeing 707-class airliners. >lA > Well, you know, the planes that hit them were bigger than 707s,aH > and the towers did withstand the _impact_.  What they didn't withstandG > indefinitely was the insertion of thousands of gallons of flaming jeta fuel., > 	 > -- Alan: >5 >0L ============================================================================ === 2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056C >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CAe
 94309-0210 >eL ============================================================================ ===n >h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:56:31 GMTS  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoftk+ Message-ID: <3C1FAD85.4E2AA67D@prodigy.net>o   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Wayne Sewell wrote: O > > Okay, so one of the Al Quaeda boys gets in and puts code into all the billyIS > > systems to make them insecure and totally unusable.  How is that different fromr > > the current situation? > I > a bug magically happens at a critical moment, rendering a battleship oraH > aircraft carrier totally useless and defenseless. Worse such ship thenM > mistakenly fires a missile at the white house. It is later revealed that AlaP > Queda put the bug and other hidden easter eggs in Microsoft's software because > they had employees there.J > M > Consider the economic ramifications of such a news. Microsoft's stock would1H > thumble, bringing down the stock market, and anything that uses NT forD > anything serious would be shut down for fear it might kill people. > O > From a terrorist's point of view, such would be very effective way to instilll  > terror in the USA and outside.  J Even claiming to have done so might be effective from a terrorist's point  of view, if he were believed.t  K I'm no fan of Microsoft, but doesn't such a claim put them in a tight spot?rK The only way to refute it is to open up the source, at least to independenta audit.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Dec 2001 21:13:41 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)e5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofth' Message-ID: <9vobi5$k67$1@joe.rice.edu>p  * Jerry Leslie (leslie@clio.rice.edu) wrote:1 :    http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/173039.html 6 :    Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft - Expert  # :    By Brian McWilliams, Newsbytese! :    REDMOND, WASHINGTON, U.S.A.,t :    17 Dec 2001, 2:08 PM CSTr  - "The Inquirer" says the story is "hogwash"...i  *    http://www.theinquirer.net/18120113.htm3    Al Qaeda infiltrates Microsoft, hacks Windows XPr    Yeah, right  )    By Paul Hales, 18/12/2001 16:00:17 BST   E   "REPORTS THAT AL QAEDA terrorists infiltrated Microsoft developmenttI    teams and planted all sorts of nasties in the code have been dismissedR-    as hogwash by a renowned industry expert*.s  	    [snip]e  E    Reports of the confession are no longer available on the HindustanAH    Times Web site and The INQUIRER'S attempts to contact the authorities@    in Bombay or the source Ravi Visvesvaraya Prasad, have proved    fruitless..."    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:28:48 GMTy0 From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft / Message-ID: <3C1FB556.D464C015@ne.mediaone.net>    Jerry Leslie wrote:n > , > I thought so too until I got to this part: > J >   "Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler said Afroze's claims about the companyJ >    were "bizarre and unsubstantiated and should be treated skeptically." > J >    According to Desler, Microsoft has rigorous processes in place duringG >    the development of Windows to ensure the security and integrity of  >    source code."  E     "MCB, Inc. spokesman Monty Brandenberg said Desler's claims about H      the company were "bizarre and unsubstantiated and should be treated      skeptically."   --  M Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB, Inc.CM mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Box 426188 M mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA  02142-0021t 617.864.6907   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:18:57 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofts0 Message-ID: <00A06B70.8A512B0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3C1F94C7.DD05AEC7@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Wayne Sewell wrote:N >> Okay, so one of the Al Quaeda boys gets in and puts code into all the billyR >> systems to make them insecure and totally unusable.  How is that different from >> the current situation?  >kH >a bug magically happens at a critical moment, rendering a battleship orG >aircraft carrier totally useless and defenseless. Worse such ship thenoL >mistakenly fires a missile at the white house. It is later revealed that AlO >Queda put the bug and other hidden easter eggs in Microsoft's software becauseg >they had employees there. >oL >Consider the economic ramifications of such a news. Microsoft's stock wouldG >thumble, bringing down the stock market, and anything that uses NT foreD >anything serious would be shut down for fear it might kill people.  >aN >From a terrorist's point of view, such would be very effective way to instill >terror in the USA and outside.e  M Micro$oft running anything that requires computer control to operate properly M (and safely) should already instill terror in the USA and outside.  We do notoL have to await a group of diaper-headed, misguided religous zealots to infect$ Micro$oft -- it is already infected. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             cJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesh   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:51:13 GMTv4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft > Message-ID: <BLPT7.17836$Sj1.10433298@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A06B70.8A512B0C@SendSpamHere.ORG...7 > In article <3C1F94C7.DD05AEC7@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei & <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > >Wayne Sewell wrote:J > >> Okay, so one of the Al Quaeda boys gets in and puts code into all the billy E > >> systems to make them insecure and totally unusable.  How is thati different from > >> the current situation?a > >eJ > >a bug magically happens at a critical moment, rendering a battleship orI > >aircraft carrier totally useless and defenseless. Worse such ship then K > >mistakenly fires a missile at the white house. It is later revealed thatn AlI > >Queda put the bug and other hidden easter eggs in Microsoft's softwaree becauseh > >they had employees there. > > H > >Consider the economic ramifications of such a news. Microsoft's stock would I > >thumble, bringing down the stock market, and anything that uses NT for-E > >anything serious would be shut down for fear it might kill people.  > >rH > >From a terrorist's point of view, such would be very effective way to instillI! > >terror in the USA and outside.g >cF > Micro$oft running anything that requires computer control to operate properlyK > (and safely) should already instill terror in the USA and outside.  We doc notsG > have to await a group of diaper-headed, misguided religous zealots tom infect& > Micro$oft -- it is already infected.  K As will be CVN-77, the last flattop in the Nimitz Class. And the first--andm? potentially last--one to sport Windoze Battle Management SystemR   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:07:31 -0500u. From: Chuck McCrobie <mccrobie@cablespeed.com>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked MicrosoftA. Message-ID: <3C1FCC33.CB9B3C32@cablespeed.com>  ( Almost fell out of my chair laughing!!!!  H Who's going to know the difference between sabotage and the "real" thing& Microsoft can produce - HA HA HA HA HA     Jerry Leslie wrote:y > 1 >    http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/173039.html 6 >    Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft - Expert > # >    By Brian McWilliams, Newsbytesn! >    REDMOND, WASHINGTON, U.S.A.,a >    17 Dec 2001, 2:08 PM CST  > F >   "A suspected member of the Al Qaeda terrorist network claimed thatH >    Islamic militants infiltrated Microsoft and sabotaged the company'sG >    Windows XP operating system, according to a source close to Indiani >    police. > J >    Mohammad Afroze Abdul Razzak, arrested by Mumbai (Bombay) police Oct.H >    2, has admitted to helping plot terrorist attacks in India, BritainH >    and Australia, India's Hindustan Times newspaper reported Saturday. > D >    During interrogation, Afroze, 25, also claimed that a member orF >    members of Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network, posing as computerI >    programmers, were able to gain employment at Microsoft and attempted H >    to plant "trojans, trapdoors, and bugs in Windows XP," according toB >    Ravi Visvesvaraya Prasad, a New Delhi information systems and" >    telecommunication consultant. > I >    Prasad, moderator of an Internet mailing list on south Asia security K >    and information warfare, told Newsbytes that Afroze made the claims in  >    a police confession.- > B >    Officials in the Mumbai police commissioner's office were not' >    immediately available for comment.e > H >    Afroze has told Indian authorities that he was part of a team of AlK >    Qaeda terrorists that planned to hijack an aircraft in London on Sept.OG >    11 and crash it into the British House of Commons or into London'snI >    Tower Bridge, according to the Hindustan Times, which obtained partst >    of Afroze's confession. > K >    British intelligence officials have dismissed the claims, according to.= >    a report last week in the Guardian, a British newspaper.c > I >    A defense attorney hired by Afroze's father, a tailor by profession,dH >    reportedly asked the court to allow Afroze to receive a psychiatric" >    examination but was rejected. > E >    Afroze, who is scheduled to provide a formal confession before aoI >    Mumbai court on Tuesday, told the magistrate Friday that he does notLF >    wish legal representation and is mentally sound, according to the >    Times of India. > J >    Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler said Afroze's claims about the companyJ >    were "bizarre and unsubstantiated and should be treated skeptically." > J >    According to Desler, Microsoft has rigorous processes in place duringG >    the development of Windows to ensure the security and integrity ofe >    source code.t > I >    Microsoft launched Windows XP in late October. While the company hasAE >    already issued security patches for the software, no evidence of.> >    malicious code in the operating system has been reported. > H >    Under interrogation, Afroze also warned Mumbai police that Al QaedaK >    was planning an attack on India's parliament complex in New Delhi, the0 >    Hindustan Times reported. > H >    On Thursday, terrorists stormed the Indian Parliament with grenadesF >    and guns, killing seven people and injuring at least 20. The fiveF >    attackers were killed in the ensuing battle with security forces,& >    according to The Washington Post. > J >    Afroze also told investigators that the team planned a similar attackF >    on Rialto Towers, the tallest building in Australia, according to& >    Australia's Herald Sun newspaper. > I >    Afroze, who hails from a poor section of Mumbai, reportedly receivedbK >    training as a pilot in Australia, the U.S. and the U.K. No informationt: >    on his technical education was immediately available. > J >    The Times of India reported last week that "official sources" believeI >    Afroze is "very close" to Al Qaeda but that authorities find some of0= >    his claims inconsistent and "too theatrical to believe.". > ; >    The Mumbai Police Cyber Crime Investigation Cell is atg  >    http://www.ccicmumbai.com . > B >    Prasad's South Asia Security and Info War list is archived at( >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/c4i . > 7 >    Reported by Newsbytes, http://www.newsbytes.com ."o >  > --Jerry Leslie   -- d --y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:55:40 +0000e% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> 5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft ' Message-ID: <3C1FC96C.911B8095@iee.org>    JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Wayne Sewell wrote:eO > > Okay, so one of the Al Quaeda boys gets in and puts code into all the billy S > > systems to make them insecure and totally unusable.  How is that different fromn > > the current situation? > I > a bug magically happens at a critical moment, rendering a battleship or H > aircraft carrier totally useless and defenseless. Worse such ship thenM > mistakenly fires a missile at the white house. It is later revealed that AlyP > Queda put the bug and other hidden easter eggs in Microsoft's software because > they had employees there.l > M > Consider the economic ramifications of such a news. Microsoft's stock wouldsH > thumble, bringing down the stock market, and anything that uses NT forD > anything serious would be shut down for fear it might kill people.  * Once again, apart from the very last part,& how is that different from the current
 situation :-)s   Antonio    -- i   ---------------o- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgg   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:12:02 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked MicrosoftE, Message-ID: <3C1FF76E.14D76B58@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: H > That was one of the design metrics back in the early 1960s. WidebodiedL > aircraft and humongous fuel capacities weren't factored into the equation.L > The WTC may well have survived a hit by a B-707, the Empire State BuildingN > was relatively unscathed after it had a close encounter with a B-25 in WWII.  J Fuel capacity of the 767 is not that much greater than it was for the 707.L Furthermore, because both planes were on a relatively short trip for the 767F and were very lightly loaded, its fuel load would have been quite low.  H I think that the towers performed admirably under the circumstances. TheF failure was in the operating staff not realising that the towers wouldM collapse due to the intense fire. Certaintly , they shouldn't have told folkseK in tower 2 that they should return to their offices and tell folks in TowersD 1's 60th floor to stay put and wait for a signal to evacuate (signal supposedly never came).n    J In hindsight, and hopefully the next time such a catastrophic fire occurs,K they won't bother sending hundreds of firemen up the stairs and perhaps useuJ other methods not to fight the fire but instead to cool it to lengthen the time the tower stays up.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:32:33 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoftu0 Message-ID: <3C1FFB52.E40A83A8@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:g  iM > As will be CVN-77, the last flattop in the Nimitz Class. And the first--and A > potentially last--one to sport Windoze Battle Management SystemR  I do you have investigative TV in the US? Surely someone would want to pick  this up?   -- h Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of .! my employers or service provider.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:38:12 GMTW4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoftd> Message-ID: <o4TT7.18006$Sj1.10576062@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  A "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in messagey* news:3C1FFB52.E40A83A8@blueyonder.co.uk... >  >t > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:s >dD > > As will be CVN-77, the last flattop in the Nimitz Class. And the
 first--andC > > potentially last--one to sport Windoze Battle Management Systemt >aK > do you have investigative TV in the US? Surely someone would want to pickn
 > this up? >f  L Sigh. Sitcoms, soap operas, and surreality teevee are the big attractions to" the glass teat here in the States.   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Dec 2001 05:14:53 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)y5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofti' Message-ID: <9vp7od$gf8$1@joe.rice.edu>4  5 Tim Llewellyn (tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:= := : "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:= :  =L : > As will be CVN-77, the last flattop in the Nimitz Class. And the first--G : > and potentially last--one to sport Windoze Battle Management Systeme :C* : do you have investigative TV in the US?   
 In theory.  , : Surely someone would want to pick this up? :n  L Why, "everyone" knows how reliable Microsoft systems are, per the Microsoft I commercial showing a room full of Wintel servers humming away, with nary  : a soul in sight. It's on TV, so it has to be true, right ?  H Besides, Microsoft spends a lot of money on advertising, a fact not lost on TV networks.i  E If a Micosoft system causes the loss of a nuclear carrier, a pipelinerL explosion, or a runaway locomotive, then investigative TV will get involved.  B That would even get the attention of the WWF of politics: CongressE and the President, who apparently isn't aware of out-of-work computerf programmers, per:s  C    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.htmlhF    President Meets with Displaced Workers in Florida Town Hall Meeting  0   "Remarks by the President in Town Hall Meeting"    Orange County Convention Center    Orlando, Floridae  	    [snip]S  H   "THE PRESIDENT:  Well, first of all, there's a lot of money spent fromI    the federal level to help -- to help with reeducation.  And one of the,I    programs that I just mentioned is the use of federal monies to empowere>    state governments to provide opportunities for reeducation.  D    I just went by a center today.  I sat next to a TWA pilot, highlyH    skilled, college-educated man who got laid off as a pilot.  His dreamC    is to go back to a local community college, become reeducated torE    become a computer programmer.  In other words, the idea is to matee3    those with skills with jobs that actually exist.e  A    The problem with the kind of federal approach and only federalDG    approach is, is that we may encourage you to become trained in a jobe    that doesn't exist..."s      4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:35:07 +0100l. From: "Josef Stadelmann" <stadelma@datazug.ch>- Subject: Re: usage of new products on vms axpe* Message-ID: <3c1fb680$1@news01.datazug.ch>   I do 100% share . - 1's mind.i  L I just wanted to know how to get OpenVMS 7.3 for the same price as I get 7.2 via the Hobbyist Program.n  C I am working as consultant for a large client in the life & pensionRL business. My job was it to migrate a 85'000 LOC's FMS and PASCAL legacy apps) into a new client server world with PC's."  L 4 yeasr ago. IONA had no version of an ORB running with a C or a C++ bindingH on OpenVMS. So I started using ObejctBroker from DEC, sold to BEA, whichJ made it M3, which was never ported to OpenVMS but become the core tech forF BEA's web logic server, ending up with ObjectBroker 4.1 on OpenVMS andJ Windows NT. No more versions for OpenVMS of this ObjectBroker are planned.  H Since this has become true I was loking arround and found IONA now readyK with an OpenVMS ORB, Orbix 3.0.1 C++ language binding. Greate, very greate,cH so I migrated the middleware from DEC/BEA's ObjectBroker to IONA's Orbix 3.0.1 on OpenVMS.i   BTW:G I had greate success with cutting this FMS PASCALL App at the workspacenI level. Moving dynamic sequences of a structure which jointly forms an FMSyD workspaces between clients and servers over CORBA and having 100% of= business code safed for the customer; that is a 100% success.   L Today we run 2 vendors ORB concurrent on OpenVMS with the same 100% equal VBJ client upfront toward this 85000 LOC PASCAL bunch with a very large oracelB database. Hosts may go down, but our folk with OpenVMS has to workF continously. You know this part of the story. Its a very robust client" server solution and very flexibel.  L Now since IONA (not BEA or DEC or COMPAQ) does not provide a next version ofI Orbix 3.0.1 for OpenVMS with a C++ binding, they make me used to start totL think in terms of Java e all. Now at that time when the customer wants to goL for ORBIX 2000, I will have to migrate my server again from Orbix 3.0.1 withL C++ binding to a JAVA apps wrapper main on top of ORBIX 2000 which runs onlyK as a JAVA ORB on OpenVMS. The challenge wil be to call in and out from JAVAcJ to PASCAL and pass strings for and back serverside. Because the CORBA mainL server will then be in JAVA but as we do legacy integration I have to bridgeF somehow to/from PASCAL at least, maybe I go first to C or C++ and callJ PASCAL or be called from PASCAL code (fucntions and procedures). Not clear( yet, I only know I can do it on OpenVMS.  I At current we have to open up the good running software and make it a WEBt application.   2 ways.N  K Option 1: We want to use the same thick VB cliant via COM to a DLL wrappingaG CORBA IIOPS in some objects sending up and receiving down over a secureiI iiops proxy server my workspaces to from the yet untouched CORBA servers.   L Option 2: We want o use the same thick VB client code via COM. But this timeD my DLL will wrapp HTTPS and send up and receive down XML/XSL/CSS/DTDL combinations toward my web apps server which is a bunch of servlets on a webI server in a DMZ or a secure access net zoon. Can Appach on OpenVMS do it?VJ From the servlet we call EJB's (which OpenVMS EJB container is fast robustB and safe?) wich acts as proxy to the per user running final serverJ processes. Oracle demands on that per user process. no sharing among usersK yet also PASCAL LOC's are built as a per user process adn we do just legacysL integration. EJB's session beans then take the XML/XSL/DTD/CSS and make it aD CORBA dynmic sequence of some structures (mainly name value pairs ofI strings) which after all represents our FMS workspace to be passed to thes
 CORBA server.B  K So a bit better support to avoid the many migrations is all I would like to  see in thge year 2002o  % And this all has to work in june 2002    Sepp  L So where can I find some 7.3 VMS for home use as a Hobbyist to try somethingL at home to get know-how in OpenVMS-JAVA and JAVA ORBS, the appach webserver,I servlets, EJB's and a JAVA based ORB and maybe you guys know about a veryr? good robust IDE running on OpenVMS, if not try www.netbeans.coma   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:25:56 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>- Subject: Re: usage of new products on vms axpt/ Message-ID: <3C1FF9C5.FD823AE@blueyonder.co.uk>e   Josef Stadelmann wrote:    N > So where can I find some 7.3 VMS for home use as a Hobbyist to try somethingN > at home to get know-how in OpenVMS-JAVA and JAVA ORBS, the appach webserver,K > servlets, EJB's and a JAVA based ORB and maybe you guys know about a veryFA > good robust IDE running on OpenVMS, if not try www.netbeans.como  G my understanding is it would be OK to borrow a VMS 7.3 CD from work to t3 use as the upgrade media for your hobbyist system. r   regardss -- ) Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of e! my employers or service provider.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:36:02 -0700l+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>t@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <3C1F9AA2.3E03D1D@jetnet.ab.ca>a   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > X > In article <Pine.NXT.4.43.0112180728280.29894-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,0 >  Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: > |>P > |>                                             The 16-bitters were killed too,O > |> although it was done in a much more subtle manner (for all I know they may * > |> still be making some form of PDP-11). > L > Mentec still makes PDP-11's only I think they can't use that name and thus2 > call their newer processors the M1 M11 and M100.  D I suspect the demise of DEC was do the the floppy disk and the 8 bit micros. E DEC lost the controller market to 8 bit micros like the 6502. Even ift theyG had a 18:9? bit microprocessor on a chip, unless they had a floppy disk F chip for 9 bit data ( 9 bit uart too ?) no third party could develop a
 computer from H them. While the PDP-8 was a nice machine for the time, 32K of memory was just to D small. DEC's CP/M-DOS machine was lets copy the market, not create a market.rE The reason I picked 18 bits over the PDP-11 was a nice 18 bit machiner
 could have; been squeezed in to a chip with the technology of the time.s -- s' Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- a+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmli   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:18:25 +0000,% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)* Message-ID: <3C1FA491.48F9D735@virgin.net>   Mark Crispin wrote:    >t >eL > The PDP-10 folks bear some of the blame; they allowed themselves to becomeL > aloof and passive.  The disease was well underway by 1977, and by 1980 theL > death knell had started.  We started wearing self-delusional T-shirts withJ > slogans such as "I don't care what people say 36-bits are here to stay." >a  P Just about a month, if memory serves, before that terrible day I attended an NDAM presentation (my first and as a junior member of staff) by DEC on the JupiteroL follow on to the KL-10. DEC absolutely and categorically assured us that theN rumours of cancellation were totally untrue. I guess many others were told theN same. I trusted what DEC at the time over the rumours. Now I see people say inO comp.os.vms "You don't understand. We have been told about lots of future plans   under NDA. VMS is safe." Yes....   > -- Mark -- >r! > http://staff.washington.edu/mrchH > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:25:29 +0000t% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>e@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)' Message-ID: <3C1FA639.575417C2@iee.org>m   bad bob wrote:2 > The staff on Vomit and Nebula was how big? Ahem.  & How can you drag a great codename like% "Vomit" into the conversation and not  explain it !   Antonioo     -- e   ---------------g- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:48:36 GMTe' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>o@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)0 Message-ID: <3C1FAD04.FA4C4C53@bellatlantic.net>   "a.carlini" wrote: >  > bad bob wrote:4 > > The staff on Vomit and Nebula was how big? Ahem. > ( > How can you drag a great codename like' > "Vomit" into the conversation and not0 > explain it !; Vomit, what those of in Marlboro called one of the vaxes ineE development in 79-80, I think it turned into 750...my brain cells arenD too rusty about those vax codenames.  I could be wrong here, I think1 comet/vomit was one bob armstrong was working on.t bob  > 	 > Antonio. >  > -- >  > ---------------t/ > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:34:14 +0000A% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)' Message-ID: <3C1FA846.56662CF6@iee.org>a   Alan Greig wrote: E > *added* to that by insisting that certain features would *never* bevE > ported to VMS, I find it perfectly understandable. I slowly grew to   + I missed out on TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (just!)o' but given the plethora of emulators nowo* available, it looks like I'll get a second+ chance. Which features is it that VMS lackso- but TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 has? I don't doubt + that there are some or many, it's just that'' I have no idea what they are. Or are wes. talking mainly features that were missing back then but are around now?  F > forgave DEC. When was it that VAX Mail finally had the ability addedF > to mail user@hostname without some third party binary hack and thirdF > party mailers? Around 1995. A decade or two after TOPS-20. No wonderE > people like Mark blew a fuse. VMS Mail today is *still* a subset ofg: > Mark's MM or DEC's 'official' MS variant 20 years later.  2 VMSMAIL never had much added - SMTP support is not1 a part of it even today. That comes with whateverr IP stack you happen to use.i  * VMSMAIL (AFAIK) was deliberately prevented( from growing new features to prevent it & competing with either (or both of ...)% DECmail and ALL-IN-1. NMAIL could nota# get out even via the ASSETS program # for many years in case it chewed uph$ Message Router sales (again, AFAIK).  K > >> Many other people felt the same way; which is why, unlike TOPS-20, VMSc4 > >> never was a significant player on the Internet.  - I remember speculation when COMPAQ bought out', Digital that the 16.xx.xx.xx class A address0 might have been worth $500M or so. I'm surprised' COMPAQ never did anything with that ...i   Antoniol     --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:10:56 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>.@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)( Message-ID: <3C1FB0E0.D5D227@virgin.net>   "a.carlini" wrote:   > Alan Greig wrote:aG > > *added* to that by insisting that certain features would *never* becG > > ported to VMS, I find it perfectly understandable. I slowly grew toc >n- > I missed out on TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (just!)m) > but given the plethora of emulators nowo, > available, it looks like I'll get a second- > chance. Which features is it that VMS lacks / > but TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 has? I don't doubtn  O I'm not sure I want to re-ignite that war in a cross-post. Search back for somehH previous posts of mine to c.o.v (keyword TOPS-20) where I gave examples.  4 > VMSMAIL never had much added - SMTP support is not3 > a part of it even today. That comes with whatever  > IP stack you happen to use.a >   K The support to send to user@sitename (which is what most users are going totL type at a to: prompt ) instead of transportname%"user@hostname" was added toM VMS Mail only a few years ago. Prior to that you could download an unofficial  patch to the Mail binary. Yuck!o   > , > VMSMAIL (AFAIK) was deliberately prevented) > from growing new features to prevent its( > competing with either (or both of ...)' > DECmail and ALL-IN-1. NMAIL could note% > get out even via the ASSETS programa% > for many years in case it chewed up & > Message Router sales (again, AFAIK). > M > > >> Many other people felt the same way; which is why, unlike TOPS-20, VMSe6 > > >> never was a significant player on the Internet. >l/ > I remember speculation when COMPAQ bought outC. > Digital that the 16.xx.xx.xx class A address2 > might have been worth $500M or so. I'm surprised) > COMPAQ never did anything with that ...l > 	 > Antoniot >N > -- >s > ---------------n/ > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgl   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:01:24 GMTo2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)5 Message-ID: <U0PT7.39854$m8.10822@news.webusenet.com>-  : In alt.sys.pdp10 Peter da Silva <peter@taronga.com> wrote:M > I don't think Linux was dependent on GNU. There were other free C compilerstF > available: TenDra and the Berkeley compiler were options: while theyO > didn't have as wide a following as GCC they were both available. In addition,oK > Linus could have used parts of the BSD tree for his "super Minix" insteadC > of the GNU utilities.   L Back around Linux 0.12, and even the early 0.95.x days (1992) prior to thereI being a real distro I think it was fairly common to have a mix of GNU and H BSD utilities.  I know I had a mix of both in my early Linux installs (IF don't know how many times I reinstalled everything in those days doing various tweaks).   			Zane    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:04:28 +010091 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>(@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)5 Message-ID: <3C1FBD6B.D3C1CF74@swissonline.delete.ch>l   Alan Greig wrote:n >  ...eR > Just about a month, if memory serves, before that terrible day I attended an NDAO > presentation (my first and as a junior member of staff) by DEC on the Jupiter N > follow on to the KL-10. DEC absolutely and categorically assured us that theP > rumours of cancellation were totally untrue. I guess many others were told theP > same. I trusted what DEC at the time over the rumours. Now I see people say inQ > comp.os.vms "You don't understand. We have been told about lots of future plansh" > under NDA. VMS is safe." Yes....    O It's become evident that NDA in DEC-speak or Compaq-speak really means  'Nother  Dubious Assertion      John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:03:07 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>e@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)) Message-ID: <3C1FBD1B.D752A825@rdrop.com>n   "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > < > In alt.sys.pdp10 Peter da Silva <peter@taronga.com> wrote:O > > I don't think Linux was dependent on GNU. There were other free C compilersiH > > available: TenDra and the Berkeley compiler were options: while theyQ > > didn't have as wide a following as GCC they were both available. In addition, M > > Linus could have used parts of the BSD tree for his "super Minix" insteadn > > of the GNU utilities.l > N > Back around Linux 0.12, and even the early 0.95.x days (1992) prior to thereK > being a real distro I think it was fairly common to have a mix of GNU anddJ > BSD utilities.  I know I had a mix of both in my early Linux installs (IH > don't know how many times I reinstalled everything in those days doing > various tweaks).  C I've got a Slackware 0.95a distribution on stiffy disks- 28 of 'em,tF including a rudimentary X package.  Last seen on a 386/25 with 8 MB ofE RAM.  Common procedure was to 'make all', then go to bed.  With luck,p' you'd have a system when you woke up...a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:10:44 -0700a+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <3C1FBEE4.847C5CAC@jetnet.ab.ca>   "Zane H. Healy" wrote:  N > Back around Linux 0.12, and even the early 0.95.x days (1992) prior to thereK > being a real distro I think it was fairly common to have a mix of GNU and'J > BSD utilities.  I know I had a mix of both in my early Linux installs (IH > don't know how many times I reinstalled everything in those days doing > various tweaks).  > Having read the minux book years ago, two things stopped MINUX developmentAG other than the copywrite I think. It was based on the PC and the 16 bitgD segment registers. The C compiler was closed source. While Minux has
 been upgradeds' active development has been with linux.t -- ,' Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- d+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html'   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:33:49 -0500 * From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)) Message-ID: <3C1FC44D.4090807@compaq.com>p   a.carlini wrote:  - > chance. Which features is it that VMS lackso/ > but TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 has? I don't doubtr- > that there are some or many, it's just that:) > I have no idea what they are. Or are weS0 > talking mainly features that were missing back > then but are around now?    F As a software developer who has received lots of SPRs over the years, H I'm still waiting on SET WATCH VERSION.  I'd guess about 10%-15% of the J SPRs I read get returned with a "Which version are you running?" question.     -- q John Reagant' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:29:59 -0500O- From: Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>p@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)0 Message-ID: <3C1FD177.24E04E52@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>   Alan Greig wrote:iM > The support to send to user@sitename (which is what most users are going touN > type at a to: prompt ) instead of transportname%"user@hostname" was added toO > VMS Mail only a few years ago. Prior to that you could download an unofficial ! > patch to the Mail binary. Yuck!p  N Whadayamean, "Yuck?"  The MAILSHR patch back then worked better than TCPIP 5.1N does even today.  Ex: try sending to o'reilly@sitename and see what happens on< VMS these days.  The patched MAILSHR never had this problem.    - JBV   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Dec 2001 03:18:32 GMT From: "Who, me?" <who@me.com>s@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <Xns917BE2BC4F0BEwhomecom@199.125.85.9>c  G Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrotewD in news:y4n10go9hl.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de: / > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:wI >> Many other people felt the same way; which is why, unlike TOPS-20, VMSs3 >> never was a significant player on the Internet. y > H > I do believe this has more to do with the lack of an affordable TCP/IP8 > stack of good quality early enough than anything else.  K Well, I think it has a lot to do with the ones in DEC who had "networking" vI in their job description deciding that OSI mattered a hell of a lot more sH than TCP/IP.  I guess we'll always have to wonder what the techno scene I would be like if DEC had spent the time, treasure and talent in the late oG 80's and early 90's on TCP/IP as they did on OSI.  I recall DEC really  I seemed to get the "network toaster" concept, unfortunately all the boxes pB spoke the wrong protocol(s).  I remember being in DEC's main Unix I development lab in the early 90's (one floor below The Home of VMS (tm)) sH and seeing a rack with a funny box the size of a large bread box with a L funny red-colored drawing of the Golden Gate bridge on it.  I asked what it K was, and was told it was a network router.  I asked why they weren't using eJ a DEC networking product and was told "we don't have any products that do K what this one does".  Sigh, I really wish I ran out and bought Cisco stock t that day :-(   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:47:56 -0500O* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>C Subject: Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)-) Message-ID: <3C1FC79C.8070205@compaq.com>    JF Mezei wrote:M   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K >>Besides, the EV7 is a EV68 core, with logic for glueless MP.  It would bes >>cheaper to use EV68. >> > P > Will/should compilers be tweaked to make full use of EV7 capabilities, or willP > EV6 binaries run at the most optimal EV7 capability out of the box without any > changes ?O >   F The compiler tweaking has already been done.  From what I understand, 7 EV7 should take existing EV6/EV67/EV68 code quite well.O  B I did a quick look at a /LIST/MACH output of a Pascal program and F compared /ARCH=EV67 and /ARCH=EV7 output.  Except for a few UNOPs for F alignment the rest of the instructions were identical. AND it was the G /ARCH=EV67 that had the UNOPs for extra alignment!!!  Must be that the f< EV7 doesn't need them/want them/ or care about them as much.   -- - John Reaganu' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:05:45 +0000h% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>3C Subject: Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)t' Message-ID: <3C1FCBC9.F86D7F39@iee.org>0   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > L > The DS20 is actually pretty small.  Certainly smaller than the first AlphaI > workstation - the Flamingo (DEC3000).  It is a bit noisier than I woulda > prefer for a personal system.e  " Wasn't the DEC 2000-300 the first  OpenVMS Alpha workstation?    " (And I assume it's still supported nine years on)   Antoniot   -- '   --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orga   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Dec 2001 18:31:18 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)aC Subject: Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)i3 Message-ID: <Qo3ABg6$XoUK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   O In article <3C1FCBC9.F86D7F39@iee.org>, "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes:f > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>  M >> The DS20 is actually pretty small.  Certainly smaller than the first Alpha J >> workstation - the Flamingo (DEC3000).  It is a bit noisier than I would  >> prefer for a personal system. > $ > Wasn't the DEC 2000-300 the first  > OpenVMS Alpha workstation? o  D No, it did not exist yet when V1.0 came out.  It was the first Alpha to support Windows NT.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:45:12 -050015 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> C Subject: Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)e0 Message-ID: <3hST7.94$sK3.4362@news.cpqcorp.net>  K Nope.  The first one was Turbochannel based.  The DEC 2000 did not come oute= until *much* later, but was the first "PC-like" Alpha system.e      0 "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in message! news:3C1FCBC9.F86D7F39@iee.org...e > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >nH > > The DS20 is actually pretty small.  Certainly smaller than the first AlphaoK > > workstation - the Flamingo (DEC3000).  It is a bit noisier than I woulds! > > prefer for a personal system.m >e# > Wasn't the DEC 2000-300 the firsto > OpenVMS Alpha workstation? >e$ > (And I assume it's still supported > nine years on) >l	 > Antoniot >l > -- >. > ---------------s/ > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:37:40 -0600t, From: "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mindspring.com>) Subject: VMSclusters and network switches 2 Message-ID: <9vog9n$h6v$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>  H Our cluster, an MV3100-30 and a DEC 2000-300, are on a thinwire backboneF from which other hubs (10 and 100Base) are hung.  Although most of theH heavy PC based traffic is on one of the 100s, tons of broadcast traffic,B especially during backups, pollutes the whole LAN.  After numerousH problems and complaints, I finally got the go ahead to order a switch to( segregate the nasty PCs and the cluster.  A Questions:  given the two fairly old/slow 10Base-T systems in the C cluster, is there any real advantage in putting each one on its own F switched port, as opposed to having a small hub hanging off one switchH port with both nodes in that one hub (and hence no switch involvement inH intracluster communications)?  Either would presumably keep intracluster, traffic out of sight of all the other nodes.  E :Given individual ports, are there any recommendations for (hopefully @ not too expensive) switches that will work reliably in a clusterB interconnect environment?  New would be nice, 10/100 is essential,E support is essential (unless those <$100 wunderswitches will actually ) work, in which case spares will be kept).r   Thanks!t   Rich Jordana   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:27:10 -0500r  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>- Subject: Re: VMSclusters and network switchesn4 Message-ID: <1011218211253.418C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ' On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Rich Jordan wrote:e  J > Our cluster, an MV3100-30 and a DEC 2000-300, are on a thinwire backboneH > from which other hubs (10 and 100Base) are hung.  Although most of theJ > heavy PC based traffic is on one of the 100s, tons of broadcast traffic,D > especially during backups, pollutes the whole LAN.  After numerousJ > problems and complaints, I finally got the go ahead to order a switch to* > segregate the nasty PCs and the cluster. > C > Questions:  given the two fairly old/slow 10Base-T systems in therE > cluster, is there any real advantage in putting each one on its own H > switched port, as opposed to having a small hub hanging off one switchJ > port with both nodes in that one hub (and hence no switch involvement inJ > intracluster communications)?  Either would presumably keep intracluster. > traffic out of sight of all the other nodes. > G > :Given individual ports, are there any recommendations for (hopefully B > not too expensive) switches that will work reliably in a clusterD > interconnect environment?  New would be nice, 10/100 is essential,G > support is essential (unless those <$100 wunderswitches will actuallyn+ > work, in which case spares will be kept).w > 	 > Thanks!a > 
 > Rich Jordane  	 Hi Rich -   C We have a fairly fancy HP switch (HP J4121A ProCurve Switch 4000M),tE but I don't know if it is overkill.  We were getting lots of ethernetIA errors (collisions, framing errors, etc.) when everthing was on aiD hub, especially when PC backups were going on.  After installing theB switch, everything behaved much better.  We have 2 Alphas: an veryD old one with 10Mb and a newer one with 10/100 and a VAX (10Mb only).D The newer one is running at 100Mb FD, but I don't think that mattersE much since everything it usually talks (i.e. the rest of the cluster)vD is 10Mb.  So I am pretty sure putting everything on a single segment@ off the switch with a 10Mb hub or a cheap 10Mb switch would workD fine for the cluster.  (The PC backups seem to appreciate the 100Mb,D though.)  On the other hand, if we add a new 100Mb-capable Alpha (or= IPF?) to the cluster, we just need to plug it into the switch./ and it could talk to the fast Alpha at 100Mb.  a  B So I strongly recommend a switch, but don't know if the cheap ones) would be fine.  Hope this helps a little.y   -- t John Santoso Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:03:23 -0500o+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e$ Subject: RE: WAP gateway for OpenVMST Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4010D7237@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  
 Hello Ruslan,S  G Just noticed your note .. Not sure if this is what you are looking for,r but check out:  G http://ebusiness.ericom.com/fms These folks are taking FMS applicationse? and providing the same access to the same data via wireless WAPe- protocols ..e.g. for PDA's, cell phones etc..(  G The info on their Host Publisher product (also supports OpenVMS) can ber	 found at:%) http://www.ericom.com/wireless_mobile.asp    Seriously cool stuff.    :-)u   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantM Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----9 From: Ruslan R. Laishev [mailto:laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru]v Sent: December 18, 2001 1:37 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd  Subject: WAP gateway for OpenVMS    
 Hello All,> 	I looking for a WAP gateway for OpenVMS, is there something ?   --=20  Cheers, Ruslan.rD +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+;       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.coma8         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS*                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222A    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.703 ************************