1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 20 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 706       Contents:  RE: "You must think in Russian."" Re: 1980 Dungeon game walkthrough? Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSE Re: Another microsoft IE crater bug ... VMS only unhackable still ... ' Re: Business Week article on the merger ' Re: Business Week article on the merger   Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: Compaq now a takeover target  Re: CXX and the Hobbyist license: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?2 Re: DCPS printing problem - shared network printer Re: decnet address query Re: decnet address query  Re: DECNet-Plus routing problem?5 Definition of timesharing (was: VMS missing features)  Re: Disaster recover - issues? dump and fopen help  Re: Error message on OPCOM1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: How to do daemons on VMS? , HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Re: Learn about the Compaq business model ) Minute Day of the DCL: the 2001 Challenge ( Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questions( Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questions Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-Del RE: More than Ctrl-Alt-Del Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-Del Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-Del2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.2 Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.# OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline  Re: Oracle 8i on VMS Re: Oracle 8i on VMS Re: Oracle 8i on VMS8 Re: PROBLEMS CREATING USER ACCOUNT ON VAX VMS V6.0?????? Re: QIOs, ASTs, and Event Flags  Re: QIOs, ASTs, and Event Flags  See you in 2002  Re: See you in 2002  RE: See you in 2002  Re: set host problem Re: Strange quorum disk problem  Re: Strange quorum disk problem P SUBMIT/AFTER/HOLD (was: RE: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency indate handling, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft, Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft The cost of alignment traps???O Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS) O Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS) O Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS)  Re: UK VMS help needed Re: UK VMS help needed Re: UK VMS help needed  Unable to open file of this type$ Re: Unable to open file of this type< Updating relative files from C - was Re: dump and fopen help Re: VAX: Block vs. Megabytes7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) : Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)$ Re: VMSclusters and network switches Re: WAP gateway for OpenVMS  War Of Words Heats Up , Re: What Capellas said about Alpha on Jan 28P Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS P Re: Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: P RE: Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE:   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:53:58 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>) Subject: RE: "You must think in Russian." - Message-ID: <0033000045566700000002L002*@MHS>   6 =0AThere might also be a bit of "there is no spoon" in the Tao of VMS...    :^)    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET + Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:31 PM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET% Subject: "You must think in Russian."     H "You must think in Russian." That's from the movie Firefox. For those o= f F you who may not have seen it, Clint Eastwood is an American pilot sentC into the then Soviet Union to steal their newest fighter plane. The H plane has a helmet that can pick up the pilot's brain waves and act upo= n D those thoughts. The Russian scientist that help him tell him that he& must think in Russian to make it work.  # What does this have to do with VMS?   D The hard part with trying to educate people new to VMS is that thoseH people always want to try to correlate terms and ideas from old "world"=  F to the new world we all love as VMS.... And while that is necessary asF that person becomes familiar with VMS... After a time, that person hasD to put aside the old thought patterns and think in new "VMS" thoughtB patterns. I've seen people customize EVE until it behaves like vi.E That's fine for the few weeks on the job... But after a while, you've H got to start using EVE, as EVE. In VMS it's a "Command procedure," not = a D "script." After a while, if you're working on VMS, you need to start using "Command procedures."   D I've seen various threads about how I hated porting software to/fromD VMS. Or how Linus didn't like VMS... etc.... But I contend until youC really try to understand the philosophy of VMS... you really aren't & entitled to say good/bad/or inbetween.   Just my 2 cents worth,   Lyndon   --H My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of my=  	 employer.     H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don'= t  have to look at the horse's butt.=    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:48:07 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>+ Subject: Re: 1980 Dungeon game walkthrough? ) Message-ID: <3C21C1E7.CB11AC08@127.0.0.1>    Didier Morandi wrote:   6 > Better than the walkthrough, if someone has a map...8 > I'm also looking for a plain text version of DTEXT.DAT > (1980 version)   Sideline...   ? A friend and I wrote a BASIC program to print the map from DND. 	 (DND.EXE)   E Most interesting to see what they used in lower levels, maps spelling  words!  D However we lost the source when a disk failed in a catastrophic mode with no backup of our work.   ) I learnt many lessons many years ago.....  --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:57:14 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <3C21A7EA.5B1258FD@rdrop.com>    Andrew Swallow wrote:  > 7 > I believe that OpenVMS needs to become mouse friendly $ > in order to stay state of the art.  > Though I haven't played with them for years, there are Windoze@ point-and-drool interfaces for [at least some] system managementD functions.  I quit using them because, like any WYSIWYG environment,: WYSI*all*YG, and I needed more power.  I.e., command line.  F Fortunately the VMS ones were more robust than the Sequent DYNIX ones,H where the NT box being used as a console coughing up a blue screen could crash the host.   = But for the crowd that believe they're important, they exist.   E I would agree that VMS could stand to upgrade it's basic command line D functionality into something menu-driven, but I was brought into VMSH through one written by my employer (Hi, Lorin!).  One of these days I'llE get him to get it portable enough to show off...  It's closer than he  thinks.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:25:02 -0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF186@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J VMS won't flourish in the longer term without a "compatible" GUI and being  available on commodity hardware.   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)           ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:36:17 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 8 Message-ID: <t7j32us92km51p9ksp3gf41apetrjmpote@4ax.com>  5 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:04:12 -0600, Christopher Smith  <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:   >> > K >Not in the way you describe, but it would be simple enough to write an X11  >app to do what you want.   E Yes, I've always thought it would be easy to create a point and click # interface to VMS based on CLD files   	 >Regards,  >  >Chris >  > " >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL  >  >/usr/bin/perl -e ' @ >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:37:32 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS B Message-ID: <20011220103455.J86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  G Don't know how to break this too you, but VMS is no less Mouse Friendly F than Unix.  The mouse is user interface specific and has nothing to doF with the OS.  While DECWindows has already been mentiond (I have mouseF and graphics on most of my VAXen) there are also things like PowertermE on the PC which gives me cut&paste command line and editors on any OS , I choose to use, including (frequently) VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:10:24 -0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF191@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  I > The mouse is user interface specific and has nothing to do with the OS.   K The user interface is crucial part of any OS and the mouse (or any pointing K device) is central to the design of all Windows software. Both VMS and UNIX / have yet to make best friends of their mice ...    John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)      -----Original Message-----/ From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] ) Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 3:38 PM  To: John Macallister% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS       G Don't know how to break this too you, but VMS is no less Mouse Friendly F than Unix.  The mouse is user interface specific and has nothing to doF with the OS.  While DECWindows has already been mentiond (I have mouseF and graphics on most of my VAXen) there are also things like PowertermE on the PC which gives me cut&paste command line and editors on any OS , I choose to use, including (frequently) VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:28:09 -0600V+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>M% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSeL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----A > From: John Macallister [mailto:J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk]e  = > The user interface is crucial part of any OS and the mouse i > (or any pointing< > device) is central to the design of all Windows software.  > Both VMS and UNIXe1 > have yet to make best friends of their mice ...a  H Huh?  Are you complaining because VMS and Unix don't require their mouse$ plugged in to even consider booting?  B Otherwise I can only see this as the age old software availabilityJ complaint, and agree.  I do hope, though, that you wouldn't have the mouse@ made into a requirement on which the system's use is contingent.   Regards,   Chrisc    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerr Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i 'c  f   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:05:49 GMTE= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSE0 Message-ID: <00A06CD7.20C2684A@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF191@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes: J >> The mouse is user interface specific and has nothing to do with the OS. >iL >The user interface is crucial part of any OS and the mouse (or any pointingL >device) is central to the design of all Windows software. Both VMS and UNIX0 >have yet to make best friends of their mice ... >  >Johnh  I Let's see...  I want to copy the following line from one terminal sessionr" into another terminal/EDT session.  , The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.   What do I do...p     On OpenVMS/DECwindows: =====================nB Step 1:  I place the pointer over the line and I click MB1 thrice."          This highlights the line.  C Step 2:  I then move the pointer over the terminal/EDT session and n;          I click MB2.  This places the line in the session.o  6 That seems quite simple and very mouse oriented to me.    G Now, let's do that very same thing on a Billybox.  (Of course, there ise' no EDT so I'll use the NOTEPAD thingy).t   On Mickey$oft Weendoze:H ======================  B Step 1: I have to hold down the mouse button and drag the pointer C         through the text line that I want to copy.  This highlightso         the text.     B Step 2: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which           causes a menu to appear.  ' Step 3: Then I have to click on {Copy}.M  E Step 4: Now I have to move the pointer to the Notepad window and makeM         it active.  B Step 5: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which "         causes a menu to appear.    E Step 6: I have to click on {Paste} to place the copied line into the d         NOTEPAD buffer.   E It seems to *this* mouse user that it is far easier to accomplish thee? cut-and-paste on VMS/DECwindows) than on Mickey$oft/Weendoze.  ?    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             nJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:48:51 -0500d* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSs/ Message-ID: <3C21DE33.28035.17DB09A5@localhost>   > On 20 Dec 2001, at 17:05, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: > On Mickey$oft Weendoze:i > ======================D > Step 2: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which " >         causes a menu to appear.) > Step 3: Then I have to click on {Copy}.   D > Step 5: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which $ >         causes a menu to appear.  G > Step 6: I have to click on {Paste} to place the copied line into the g >         NOTEPAD buffer.s  F Actually, in Windows, most programs accept Ctrl-C for "copy" and Ctrl- V for "paste".  But not all.  E And Ctrl-C would have to be the worst possible choice of a keystroke M for a VMS person...a    
 --Stan Quayle ! President, Quayle Consulting Inc.(  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147n= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:12:50 -0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMS N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF192@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J I'd be interested to know how your little example would look if the editorL being used was EVE. I won't bother to demonstrate how easy the cut and pasteL operation is in Windows as you've either deliberately made it long-winded orJ are simply unfamiliar with Windows. You might also try cutting and pastingK some graphics from one DECwindows window to another and compare it with theE same operation in Windows.   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)      -----Original Message-----> From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:system@SendSpamHere.ORG]) Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:06 PMo To: John Macallister% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSo    
 In articleH <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF191@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John5 Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes: J >> The mouse is user interface specific and has nothing to do with the OS. > L >The user interface is crucial part of any OS and the mouse (or any pointingL >device) is central to the design of all Windows software. Both VMS and UNIX0 >have yet to make best friends of their mice ... >  >John   I Let's see...  I want to copy the following line from one terminal sessiono" into another terminal/EDT session.  , The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.   What do I do...s     On OpenVMS/DECwindows: =====================eB Step 1:  I place the pointer over the line and I click MB1 thrice."          This highlights the line.  C Step 2:  I then move the pointer over the terminal/EDT session and t;          I click MB2.  This places the line in the session.s  6 That seems quite simple and very mouse oriented to me.    G Now, let's do that very same thing on a Billybox.  (Of course, there ism' no EDT so I'll use the NOTEPAD thingy).a   On Mickey$oft Weendoze:  ======================  B Step 1: I have to hold down the mouse button and drag the pointer C         through the text line that I want to copy.  This highlightsn         the text.  i  B Step 2: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which           causes a menu to appear.  ' Step 3: Then I have to click on {Copy}.e  E Step 4: Now I have to move the pointer to the Notepad window and make          it active.  B Step 5: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window which "         causes a menu to appear.    E Step 6: I have to click on {Paste} to place the copied line into the (         NOTEPAD buffer.V  E It seems to *this* mouse user that it is far easier to accomplish thei? cut-and-paste on VMS/DECwindows) than on Mickey$oft/Weendoze.  e  r --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            eJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesd   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:26:50 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSr3 Message-ID: <BJFpm9aZ49h6@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  ` In article <t7j32us92km51p9ksp3gf41apetrjmpote@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:7 > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:04:12 -0600, Christopher Smitha > <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote: >  >>>t >>L >>Not in the way you describe, but it would be simple enough to write an X11 >>app to do what you want. > G > Yes, I've always thought it would be easy to create a point and clicka% > interface to VMS based on CLD files   > But the result would produce complaints in cases where all the< constraints on qualifiers are not embodied in the CLD files. Consider the Backup command.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:36:00 -05000( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>% Subject: RE: A mouse friendly OpenVMSaB Message-ID: <20011220132843.I86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  9 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:D  I > Now, let's do that very same thing on a Billybox.  (Of course, there isc) > no EDT so I'll use the NOTEPAD thingy).i >u > On Mickey$oft Weendoze:n > ====================== >eC > Step 1: I have to hold down the mouse button and drag the pointer E >         through the text line that I want to copy.  This highlights  >         the text.p >eC > Step 2: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window whichn" >         causes a menu to appear. >s) > Step 3: Then I have to click on {Copy}.e >uG > Step 4: Now I have to move the pointer to the Notepad window and makeS >         it active. >tC > Step 5: I click on the {Edit} item at the top of the window whicht" >         causes a menu to appear. > F > Step 6: I have to click on {Paste} to place the copied line into the >         NOTEPAD buffer.  >oG > It seems to *this* mouse user that it is far easier to accomplish theo? > cut-and-paste on VMS/DECwindows) than on Mickey$oft/Weendoze.e >e  N You know, I really hate coming to the rescue of Gatesware, but in the interest5 of fairness (something I also apply to Unix and VMS):i  D Step 1: hold down left mouse button and drag over text to be copied.  1 Step 2: press right mouse button and select copy.s  ) Step 3: move mouse to destination window.e  , Step 4: press right button and select paste.   Both are simple, but different.n    And in standard X on a Unix box.  9 Step 1: hold left button and drag over text to be copied.    Step 2: move to new window.   " Step 3: press middle mouse button.  L Applications in Unix/X11 can over-ride this behavior, and I am quite certain* the same is true of the other two as well.  2 None of the three above is netter, just different.   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:47:32 GMT,= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)eN Subject: Re: Another microsoft IE crater bug ... VMS only unhackable still ...0 Message-ID: <00A06CAA.A9AF1298@SendSpamHere.ORG>  S In article <9vrcve$heg$2@joe.rice.edu>, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) writes: * >Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:E >: here is your vms alternative ... only the 2000th bug this year ...  >: have funyG >: you NT admins patching your 80 million servers whenever a patch hits  >: ... >:* >: http://www.theinquirer.net/14120108.htm( >: Fresh bug woe hits Internet Explorer  >: >: Size of the Ginnunga Gap ) >: By Mike Magee, 14/12/2001 11:12:25 BSTg >D >Here's the CERT advisory... > 2 >   http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-36.htmlJ >   CERT Advisory CA-2001-36 Microsoft Internet Explorer Does Not Respect5 >   Content-Disposition and Content-Type MIME HeadersW  L Internet Exploiter not respecting Content-Disposition and Content-Type MIME K Headers is well publicized.  I've had to place "hacks" into web servers andaL other HTTP based apps because of this.  Perhaps now Billy and Co. will startL to adhere to certain standards instead of trying to break them in a way thatG favors his pernicious lust to control everything... but probably not.  w --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt            sJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbese   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:06:50 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> 0 Subject: Re: Business Week article on the merger$ Message-ID: <3c220ca6$1@news.si.com>  @ >http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_52/b3763001.htm  I "And if she fails? She says she'll cross that bridge if she comes to it."i  G She and Michael already told us they've burned their bridges.  It'll bei9 interesting to see how she'll cross the left over chasms.j --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comoA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comc= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:53:32 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) 0 Subject: Re: Business Week article on the merger' Message-ID: <9vt52c$723$2@joe.rice.edu>   : Brian Tillman (tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com) wrote: :,I : She and Michael already told us they've burned their bridges.  It'll bec; : interesting to see how she'll cross the left over chasms.   L Easy, they'll fill the chasm with the 15,000, or more, bodies of the people  they  plan to lay off.    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:08:18 -0500:; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>c) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targetD$ Message-ID: <3c221b0e$1@news.si.com>  J >> Yeah.  And we all saw the long-term advantage that Unix gained over VMSE >> by getting into academia.  The graduates were familiar with it andh" >> recommended it for their sites. >>H >What I used to call the pimply youth syndrome. Father on seeing his son doingnJ >well on a CS course asks him what computer to buy for his business. Later on thatnL >son is in a position to recommend what his employers should buy. And so on.  K It's no different than cigarettes: hook 'em when they're young and you haveoJ customers for life.  It doesn't take a great marketing mind to grasp this. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com2= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:57:36 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover targeti> Message-ID: <kEpU7.21106$Sj1.11570134@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3c221b0e$1@news.si.com...L > >> Yeah.  And we all saw the long-term advantage that Unix gained over VMSG > >> by getting into academia.  The graduates were familiar with it andr$ > >> recommended it for their sites. > >>J > >What I used to call the pimply youth syndrome. Father on seeing his son > doingbL > >well on a CS course asks him what computer to buy for his business. Later	 > on that J > >son is in a position to recommend what his employers should buy. And so on.i > H > It's no different than cigarettes: hook 'em when they're young and you haveL > customers for life.  It doesn't take a great marketing mind to grasp this.  ? Well, you don't need Zyban, Nicorette, or Smokeenders to become L Windoze-free. Apps availability, marketing hype, and a complicit trade pressJ has a lot more to do with the Windoze craze than does the addictiveness of" the defective product in question.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:36:56 -0500i( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>) Subject: Re: Compaq now a takeover target B Message-ID: <20011220133630.S86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  ) On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Brian Tillman wrote:c  L > >> Yeah.  And we all saw the long-term advantage that Unix gained over VMSG > >> by getting into academia.  The graduates were familiar with it and-$ > >> recommended it for their sites. > >>J > >What I used to call the pimply youth syndrome. Father on seeing his son > doinguL > >well on a CS course asks him what computer to buy for his business. Later	 > on that N > >son is in a position to recommend what his employers should buy. And so on. > M > It's no different than cigarettes: hook 'em when they're young and you havevL > customers for life.  It doesn't take a great marketing mind to grasp this.   Mother duck syndrome.a   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:45:01 +0100-* From: dwparsons@t-online.de (Dave Parsons)) Subject: Re: CXX and the Hobbyist licenseBP Message-ID: <Ej0w7lFo08Zw-pn2-hGZbVVzbdxmD@jupiter.dwparsons.dialin.t-online.de>  L On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:17:36, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:   > In article <Ej0w7lFo08Zw-pn2-VUGONGPqYMMp@jupiter.dwparsons.dialin.t-online.de>, dwparsons@t-online.de (Dave Parsons) writes:e > N > > Err, 2nd CD? I only received one. I have C,Pascal & Fortran but can't find. > > CXX (or CCXX). I received mine a year ago. > G >    Oops, I didn't realize you meant the Hobbyist CD set, someone elsev/ >    posted that CXX was accidentally left off.  >     I >    I was thinking in terms of the Hobbyist licnese and the real CD set.r > 8 No problem. I have it now so, all's well that ends well.   Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:49:12 +0100 (MET)=9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>kC Subject: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?o; Message-ID: <01KC3B0YF0K49138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>I  = > Actually what I would like to see changed is the fact that q > 7 >     SUBMIT/AFTER="''some_symbol'" a_command_procedure  > E > submits the job immediately if the symbol SOME_SYMBOL happens to beuG > null (perhaps because of a typo, e.g.). I'd rather have it produce an=B > error, which it is, if you made a typo. Instead, we get the user1 > screaming: NO, I didn't want it to start now!!!c  D For a similar reason, I have a SUBMIT.COM which automatically does aG SUBMIT/HOLD and then a SHOW ENTRY.  If it is then OK, I can release it a etc.  H The only problem with this is that /AFTER and /HOLD cannot be specified D together (well, they can, but /AFTER is ignored with no messsage!). H Makes sense if one does everything interactively, but (DCL team: lend meE your ears!) not if things like start times are controlled by symbols, G logicals etc, things are submitted automatically etc etc. PLEASE let usuH have /AFTER and /HOLD together!  In my example, I would check the batch ? entry if everything is OK, then do a SET ENTRY/NOHOLD on it if  F everything is OK.  Alternatively, one might want to delay a batch job I until a problem is fixed.  /HOLD erases the /AFTER time.  If the problem  F is fixed before the batch job would have started, it would be nice if 9 /NOHOLD would have it queued at the original /AFTER time.2   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 05:36:16 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)C Subject: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?5< Message-ID: <343f30ae.0112200536.c8020cf@posting.google.com>  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KC3B0YF0K49138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...? > > Actually what I would like to see changed is the fact that   > > 9 > >     SUBMIT/AFTER="''some_symbol'" a_command_procedure  > > G > > submits the job immediately if the symbol SOME_SYMBOL happens to behI > > null (perhaps because of a typo, e.g.). I'd rather have it produce ansD > > error, which it is, if you made a typo. Instead, we get the user3 > > screaming: NO, I didn't want it to start now!!!o > F > For a similar reason, I have a SUBMIT.COM which automatically does aI > SUBMIT/HOLD and then a SHOW ENTRY.  If it is then OK, I can release it 8 > etc. > J > The only problem with this is that /AFTER and /HOLD cannot be specified F > together (well, they can, but /AFTER is ignored with no messsage!). J > Makes sense if one does everything interactively, but (DCL team: lend meG > your ears!) not if things like start times are controlled by symbols,AI > logicals etc, things are submitted automatically etc etc. PLEASE let usFJ > have /AFTER and /HOLD together!  In my example, I would check the batch A > entry if everything is OK, then do a SET ENTRY/NOHOLD on it if tH > everything is OK.  Alternatively, one might want to delay a batch job K > until a problem is fixed.  /HOLD erases the /AFTER time.  If the problem oH > is fixed before the batch job would have started, it would be nice if ; > /NOHOLD would have it queued at the original /AFTER time.n  D I'm not sure what you mean by /AFTER and /HOLD not working together.$ What version of VMS are you running?  A Anyway, see the example below on how to use F$GETQUI to check the(A "after time" without running SET ENTRY/NOHOLD and thereby riskingg7 starting the job prematurely. (Example run on VMS V6.1)S  # NODE_X$ SUBM NOTHING/HOLD/AFTER=TOM2/ Job NOTHING (queue SYS$BATCH, entry 10) holdingR  A
 NODE_X$ EN 10 4   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status4   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------5      10  NOTHING         FELDMAN              Holdingm+          On available batch queue SYS$BATCHn*          Submitted 20-DEC-2001 13:22 /KEEP@ /LOG=NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN].LOG; /NOTIFY /NOPRINT /PRIORITY=1004          File: _NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN]NOTHING.COM;5    NODE_X$ SET ENT 10/NOHOLDm   
 NODE_X$ EN 10 4   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status4   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------;      10  NOTHING         FELDMAN              Holding until  21-DEC-2001 00:00 +          On available batch queue SYS$BATCH:*          Submitted 20-DEC-2001 13:22 /KEEP@ /LOG=NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN].LOG; /NOTIFY /NOPRINT /PRIORITY=1004          File: _NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN]NOTHING.COM;5  e NODE_X$ SET ENT 10/HOLDn  d NODE_X$ SH ENT/FUL 1024   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status4   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------5      10  NOTHING         FELDMAN              Holdings+          On available batch queue SYS$BATCHt*          Submitted 20-DEC-2001 13:22 /KEEP@ /LOG=NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN].LOG; /NOTIFY /NOPRINT /PRIORITY=1004          File: _NODE_X$DKA200:[FELDMAN]NOTHING.COM;5  I4 NODE_X$ EV F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_ENTRY","AFTER_TIME",10) 21-DEC-2001 00:00:00.00e  d@ NODE_X$ ! (EN == "SHOW ENTRY/FULL" !; EV == "WRITE SYS$OUTPUT"!)   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmani# afeldman &notthispart& gfigroup.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:18:08 -0500t0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>C Subject: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?t4 Message-ID: <jqmU7.6221$Q06.35311@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  " TODAY = TODAY at 0 hours 0 minutes* YESTERDAY = YESTERDAY at 0 hours 0 minutes  D It's consistent with all DCL commands (SUBMIT/AFTER, DIR/SINCE, etc)   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)t> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  A "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> a crit dans le message news:e" 19DEC200123393989@gerg.tamu.edu...? > In article <8af17fe1.0112121211.43f06f3d@posting.google.com>,-@ alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com (Aaron Sakovich) writes...D > }(I'm posting this on 12 Dec, so let's use that as a basis for the > }following examples.)< > }u > }Consider the following: > }cF > } "Dir /Before=Yesterday" results in files dated 10 Dec and earlier. > }-B > } "Dir /Before=Today" results in files dated 11 Dec and earlier. > }oF > } "Dir /Since=Today" results in files created on the 12th.  Okay, so > }far so good.  But...n > } ; > } "Submit /After=Today" starts a job immediately?  And...n > } F > } "Submit /After=Tomorrow" starts it as soon as it becomes the 13th, > }not after the 13th. > }eG > }Shouldn't "After=Today" submit (or print) a job after ''Today' is no I > }longer ''Today', but ''Tomorrow'?  Shouldn't "After=Tomorrow" submit a,? > }job after Tomorrow+23:59:59.99 instead of Tomorrow+00:00:00?.G > }Basically, my opinion is "Today" is 12 Dec 2001, from 00:00:00 until.? > }23:59:59.99; "Tomorrow" is 13 Dec 2001, from 00:00:00: untiliF > }23:59:59.99.  Submitting something "after tomorrow" shouldn't startF > }the job as soon as tomorrow starts, but rather after tomorrow ends. > }iI > }Not that this behavior should be changed at this point in time -- thispF > }would probably be more catastrophic than Y2K ever thought of being! > }oH > }Just making a point for discussion.  If someone can provide me with aH > }better perspective for interpreting this behavior, I'd appreciate it,* > }because my view is certainly confusing! > }t > }Aaron >hA > There is no inconsistency. In fact, you have just pointed out at consistency. > K > If DIR/SINCE=TODAY shows you all of the files created today, and it does,tC > then clearly the TODAY time has to be the *start* of today. It is.	 thereforepH > not surpising that a SUBMIT/AFTER=TODAY starts immediately since TODAYI > is TODAY - they are the same time, and that time is the start of today.eE > This is a consistency, not an inconsistency. If they were different$< > times for the two uses, then *that* would be inconsistent. >e? > So, in short, it might not be what you expected but it is not 
 inconsistent.n >M
 > --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:23:42 -0500 0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>C Subject: Re: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency in date handling?a4 Message-ID: <MvmU7.6222$Q06.35304@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   I should have added:8 "TODAY+1:30" = TODAY at 1 hour 30 minutes in the morning- "TODAY+5" = TODAY at 5 o'clock in the morning 1 "YESTERDAY-1-" is 2 days ago at 0 hours 0 minutess "YESTERDAY+1-" is in fact TODAYe	 and so on   L Dashes following a number in the syntax are date separators, colons are hour
 separator.B The first dash means "minus", and + sign means, obviously, "plus".  5 You'll find all the details in the documentation set..   HTHn --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  H "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> a crit dans le message news:) jqmU7.6221$Q06.35311@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...X$ > TODAY = TODAY at 0 hours 0 minutes, > YESTERDAY = YESTERDAY at 0 hours 0 minutes > F > It's consistent with all DCL commands (SUBMIT/AFTER, DIR/SINCE, etc) >2 > -- >.	 > SyltremeK > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)r@ > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address >aC > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> a crit dans le message news:r$ > 19DEC200123393989@gerg.tamu.edu...A > > In article <8af17fe1.0112121211.43f06f3d@posting.google.com>,nB > alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com (Aaron Sakovich) writes...F > > }(I'm posting this on 12 Dec, so let's use that as a basis for the > > }following examples.)s > > }1 > > }Consider the following: > > }3H > > } "Dir /Before=Yesterday" results in files dated 10 Dec and earlier. > > }nD > > } "Dir /Before=Today" results in files dated 11 Dec and earlier. > > } H > > } "Dir /Since=Today" results in files created on the 12th.  Okay, so > > }far so good.  But...  > > }T= > > } "Submit /After=Today" starts a job immediately?  And...s > > }oH > > } "Submit /After=Tomorrow" starts it as soon as it becomes the 13th, > > }not after the 13th. > > }oI > > }Shouldn't "After=Today" submit (or print) a job after ''Today' is notK > > }longer ''Today', but ''Tomorrow'?  Shouldn't "After=Tomorrow" submit aoA > > }job after Tomorrow+23:59:59.99 instead of Tomorrow+00:00:00?nI > > }Basically, my opinion is "Today" is 12 Dec 2001, from 00:00:00 until-A > > }23:59:59.99; "Tomorrow" is 13 Dec 2001, from 00:00:00: until0H > > }23:59:59.99.  Submitting something "after tomorrow" shouldn't startH > > }the job as soon as tomorrow starts, but rather after tomorrow ends. > > } K > > }Not that this behavior should be changed at this point in time -- thishH > > }would probably be more catastrophic than Y2K ever thought of being! > > }eJ > > }Just making a point for discussion.  If someone can provide me with aJ > > }better perspective for interpreting this behavior, I'd appreciate it,, > > }because my view is certainly confusing! > > }a
 > > }Aaron > > C > > There is no inconsistency. In fact, you have just pointed out ad > consistency. > >rG > > If DIR/SINCE=TODAY shows you all of the files created today, and it  does, E > > then clearly the TODAY time has to be the *start* of today. It is- > thereforeeJ > > not surpising that a SUBMIT/AFTER=TODAY starts immediately since TODAYK > > is TODAY - they are the same time, and that time is the start of today.iG > > This is a consistency, not an inconsistency. If they were different,> > > times for the two uses, then *that* would be inconsistent. > >'A > > So, in short, it might not be what you expected but it is not  > inconsistent.  > >t > > --- Carl >  >0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:49:57 -0000l+ From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com>-; Subject: Re: DCPS printing problem - shared network printer1& Message-ID: <3c21de77$1@pull.gecm.com>  A I wish I could drop MS Word but unfortunately I'm not allowed to.rB Anyway, it's not only MS Word but any type of print from a Windows application.  D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Groups Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.y  C "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  wrote in messageB news:y47krj2kya.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de.../ > "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> writes:  >sE > > I have the following problem.  Power-cycle HP printer, start DCPSoC > > queues, print from OpenVMS, job prints okay, print from PC, jobp printsD > > okay, print from OpenVMS, job header prints but then rest of job timess > > out. > H > Don't use MS Word. Really. It puts things in the systemdict that break otherd > program's code.  >v > Janr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:07:11 +0100n= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>-! Subject: Re: decnet address query15 Message-ID: <3C21D46F.EA70B833@contrastmediagroep.nl>m   Didier Morandi wrote:: >  > pat saunders wrote:e > >e > > hi, H > > I have a query about decnet addresses, I am using decnet-osi and vms	 > > 5.5-2nF > > I used @netconfig to try to configure dec-net, it had already been  5 NETCONFIG.COM is for DECnet IV and won't work on OSI.n  D > > configured but as we don't know how to do it we try changing theI > > dec-net address as a test!! I configured the dec-net address as 10.45 F > > and this seemed to work in that I could set host into the vax fromI > > another vax. My query is from this vax I can set host to another hostLH > > using their node name but it does not work when I use set host 10.50 > > for instance. ) > > I.E HOST A WITH DEC-NET ADDRESS 10.50e > > SET HOST A WORKS > > SET HOST 10290 WORKS! > > SET HOST 10.50 DOES NOT WORK,e > >e > > Why is this, > > ta > > pat  >  > (all together) > 7 > $ mc ncl flush session control naming cache entry "*"s > M > When you change any info in DECnet-Plus with sys$system:decnet_register.exetP > (used by NET$CONFIGURE.COM), for an obscure reason the previous data was savedQ > in a cache with a 30 days retention limit. For your changes to take effect, yourQ > need to "update" this cache, i.e. to empty it with this (magic) command (that I > > have defined as flu*sh == "..." in my login.com since ages). > K > If this is not enough, post the decnet_register SHOW command result here.e  ; OSI on V5.5-2 did not have the decnet_register.exe utility.   G The reason that set host 10.50 doesn't work is because this only startsi= working as of VMS V6.0. You have to use the 10*1024+50 trick.t  E Also while i prefer current versions of DECnet-Plus/OSI over phase IVkD anyday, this isn't the case with the OSI implementation on V5.5-2. I. would (on this VMS version) revert back to IV.   Regards,   Oswald  A P.s. I am job hunting at the moment. All suggestions (for centralu holland) welcome.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:14:50 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: decnet address queryy& Message-ID: <3C21D63A.90D4C0C0@gmx.ch>   Oswald Knoppers wrote:  = > OSI on V5.5-2 did not have the decnet_register.exe utility.|   Thanks,    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:19:17 -0800+ From: Kor.rinkens@libertel.nl (Kor Rinkens) ) Subject: Re: DECNet-Plus routing problem?a= Message-ID: <1f608759.0112200719.26e6d1eb@posting.google.com>   p bp592@freenet.carleton.ca (P. Keetch) wrote in message news:<acde3d69.0112130758.62a0ed6c@posting.google.com>...I > I recently upgraded an AlphaServer 1200 to OpenVMS 7.2-1 and elected toYI > also upgrade DECNet Phase IV to DECNet-Plus (endnode) and converted theoD > Phase IV node database.  I now appear to be having a problem with H > routing - I can set host 0 no problem, but cannot connect to any otherF > nodes (running either DECnet Phase IV or Plus).  The routing circuitI > is set in an off state and if I try to enable it the following happens:s > - > NCL> ENABLE NODE 0 ROUTING CIRCUIT CSMACD-0r > ! > Node 0 Routing Circuit CSMACD-0 % > at 2001-12-12:11:04:19.626-05:00Infa >  > command failed due to: >  process failure > 2 > Enable MAC address failed on a broadcast circuit > J >      My experience with DECnet-Plus is very limited, and other Phase IV F > conversions have gone without a hitch.  Can anyone suggest what the  > problem might be?  >      Thanks in advance.e    ! Hello you should do the following    $ set def sys$managere    E $ @net$configure advanced (with advanced it askes more questions) butm advanced is not nessecary.  F Please write on an paper you nodename, your decnet adress and think if4 your node is an end node, l1 router or an l2 router.  * This comand file will create *.ncl files.   D after you created these, reboot your system, and your network should run.   Regards Kora   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:40:20 +0100+ From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org>h> Subject: Definition of timesharing (was: VMS missing features)/ Message-ID: <858zbyrovv.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org>a   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:iB > I've learned that people out there have a strange idea about theF > definition of timesharing.  Now, it is perfectly possible that it isE > me who has the strange definition because I'm firmly TOPS-10 biasedo > out of habit.a  @ What is your definition of timesharing, exactly?  (I'm genuinely< curious, since your use of the word sometimes surprises me.)   -- iF Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10? Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programming    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:14:12 -0500h0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>' Subject: Re: Disaster recover - issues?84 Message-ID: <DmmU7.6219$Q06.35330@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   That's all in the plan!iB We will have a test once a year. I'm confident about restoring theJ applications, but I think restoring the network is much more difficult. IfI my co-worker (the network guy) is confident too then all should go well Ie guess!   --   SyltremaI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)R> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  G "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message news:e! 3C1FFE06.D1E92A75@videotron.ca...h > Syltrem wrote: > > I > > We will be conducting a test in January. Apparently the disaster sitem willK > > take notes on what is the final requirements (after the test comes to aBH > > conclusion) and they will reproduce this as close as possible in the events > > of a real recovery.t > K > You should also have recurrent testing, at least once a year to ensure itpG > still works (for instance if meanwhgile you changed something on youraI > production system and forgot to update the documentation) and to ensurel that= > the staff are adequatly trained and documentation complete.y >mJ > Disaster recovery should not depend on any single person being available to > setup the backup system.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:46:58 -0800& From: dyadav7@yahoo.com (Deepak Yadav) Subject: dump and fopen help= Message-ID: <13e80e3d.0112200646.1b72375b@posting.google.com>    Hi6     when i do a dump it shows 3 virtual blocks of 512.; the first and third blocks have all 00 and second block hasw first 100 byte set and rest 00.   2 when i try to read the file i am able to read onlyL one block of 100 bytes , which matched second virtual block first 100 bytes.  G i want to read the file as dump does it. as i need to update the secondQ4 virtual block (first few bytes to some value) only.   A i tried   fopen( File , "rb" , "rfm=fix", "mrs=100" , "ctx=rec");e  < is this matches the dir/full desciption of file given below.  = ( dir/full file gives maximum record size 100. rest filed are  Size:          3/12   ? File organization:  Relative, maximum record number: 2147483647 = File attributes:    Allocation: 12, Extend: 0, Bucket size: 1 <                     Global buffer count: 0, No version limit1 Record format:      Fixed length 100 byte recordsK Record attributes:  None RMS attributes:     None )   F Please tell what other/wrong arguements i have given due to which i am# not able to read file as dump does.J  D If there is some other way/utility to update the content of file i.e- to update nth byte of the file of above type.    Thnaks Deepak   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:23:58 +0200 2 From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman@digital.com># Subject: Re: Error message on OPCOM + Message-ID: <3C21E66E.3F3696CB@digital.com>:   $ HELP/MESS SNDOPRERRN    C  SNDOPRERR,  error (%X'hex-value') returned from $SNDOPR; alarm may ,              not be received on remote nodes  $   Facility:     AUDSRV, Audit Server  D   Explanation:  The audit server received an internal error from the $SNDOPR B                 system service that potentially prevents the audit server fromP@                 passing a message to other nodes in the cluster.  G   User Action:  Ensure that there is sufficient disk space on all nodesT forDE                 the OPCOM process to write log files, and ensure that  accountHA                 quotas are adequate for the cluster load. If thisl	 conditionaB                 persists, contact a Compaq support representative.    
              ,   dodi wrote:: >  > Dear All,m >  > Pls kindly need your help.8 > I have the message when executing command "Show Audit"7 > like "%SHOW-W-NOAUDITING, security auditing disabled;@ > no events will be logged". > 2 > Althought the Audit_Server on server is running." > I tried to stop Audit_Server and/ > re-runn with @sys$system:startup AUDIT_SERVER)) > or @sys$system:startup /param=("AUDIT")tC > and the above message is disapear (no error "%SHOW-W-NOAUDITING")f > G > But not more than 12hours, I got new problem where my server is hang.u8 > I looked into Operator.log and found the message below* > "%AUDSRV-W-SNDOPRERR, error (%X000008D8)C > returned from $SNDOPR; alarm may not be received on remote nodes"s > ) > I couldn't find clue on help/message orn) > in Reference Manual Book/Security book)s >  > My config. systeme > VMS AXP V7.1 > DECWindow on console monitor > RAM 640Mb. > $ > I do appreciate if you can help me  > how to solve the above matter. >  > rgds,y > Dodi   -- lE ---------------------------------------------------------------------iE Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* F Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----  Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:56:25 -0000o8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF183@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   > Which bit of this is untrue?  E I'd say it was all true. When I first worked on a VMS system with VMSuJ version 1.0 (early 1979) most of the new users (students) were coming fromH VAX systems running UNIX and asking where the ls, cd, ... commands were.   John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKyA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)e     -----Original Message-----* From: a.carlini [mailto:arcarlini@iee.org]* Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:27 PM To: John Macallister: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC     Mark Crispin wrote:oH >      "Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many yearsL > ago.  Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines.  Ten percent' > of our VAXs are going for UNIX use.  o   Which bit of this is untrue?! Fair enough, it wasn't DEC doing e" (much of) this UNIX work, but the  facts don't seem to be out of  line with what I've heard :-)D   Antonioh   -- e   ---------------d- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:15:09 -0000r8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF184@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  C >I still remember trying to figure out the DCL command interpreter, ? >and the way to add new commands by compiling a special command  >description language.    ) You're being a little unfair to VMS here.y  L There are at least four ways of adding new commands to VMS and you've chosenD the most difficult but the most complete. Using the command langaugeH definition (CLD) facility is indeed one way of setting up a new command.   The other three are as follows..  < (1) Define a symbol.   newcommand = variation of old command  C (2) Create a command procedure and define a symbol.   newcommand2 =  @procedure ,  I (3) Write a program using the "foreign command" library routines. Compilem% and link it and then define a symbol.s               newcommand3 = $programname  , All of the above can be used with arguments.  K Writing a program using the CLD routines with a command language definitiontL file is really only necessary if the full power of DCL is required. For mostL purposes (1) and (2) are sufficient. (3) provides some more flexibility. TheG fourth way involves a significant learning curve. The end result of theoH fourth way may produce the most elegant solution but, for most practical purposes, may be unnecessary.f   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK"A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:20:03 -0000d8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF185@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  I I wonder what it is today that we're missing that will dominate computing & in, say, twenty to thirty years' time?  : Could it be an intelligent sheet(s) of paper with pencil ?   John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKeA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:24:20 -0500h* From: Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <qmv32u0i3i4p98ke5rr1dh55ije7oo827d@4ax.com>  E With all due respect to the correspondents on this thread, the causesvC of DEC's demise are substantially more complicated than Ken Olsen's C opinions on PCs and UNIX.  At the time Ken made his statement aboutnD home computers, microprocessors were in their infancy, and computersD (in 70s dollars) were too costly and too unwieldy and unreliable forE home use.  By the end of the 70s, when technology had made a personaltB computer feasible, Ken pushed DEC into building personal computers" (although not IBM compatible PCs).  D The root causes of DEC's demise lie elswhere, in management responseC to changing business economics.  The computer industry changed fromw@ being a low volume business with high gross margins, to a higherC volume business with lower gross margins.  DEC was unable to changeeE fast enough as the business models shifted, or to find an appropriate-D balance point.  Sun exemplifies a company that implemented a tightlyA focused, higher margin model; Dell a company that embraced a highiD volume model.  Both have prospered.   DEC tried multiple strategies, at once, and failed.   /Bob Supnik   0 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:01:01 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:   < >The problem at DEC started at the top.  As early as 1974...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:29:27 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>t: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Edward Franks [mailto:fortrandragon@hotmail.com]  A > 	Historically, the only serious competition to Windows for the c: > _desktop_ has been the Mac.  Just how long and how many  > attempts did it F > take Apple to give their users things like protected memory or true  > multitasking?f   *ouch*  <pet peeve>   J No more than it took microshaft -- of course, one could instead argue thatH they didn't _really_ try to give their users anything, but my philosophy says that they're incompetent.  J Have you forgotten (or not figured out) that memory protection didn't workJ as advertised in windows 95, or 98...?  There were also some nasty caveatsL on the "pre-emptive" multitasking that made it next to useless.  Any versionJ of windows that's not based on NT (which is only just now making it to the+ average desktop) has these problems, AFAIK.   8 > 	Yes, Windows sucks for a lot of things, but the real  > competition  > was even worse.n  G I would correct that to say "windows sucks for anything."  I would also H argue that Macintosh had/has many clear advantages over windows, and theI only reason windows gained any ground was related to Apple's policies WRT  their hardware.u  I On a bad day I might even argue that the Macintosh system kept people whomH might otherwise have developed tripe like you see running on the windowsE platform from doing it.  If one actually has to pay attention to whatOH they're doing to system resources, they may be less likely to write appsF with memory leaks, buffer overflow problems, random bugs that make theG entire system unstable, etc, etc.  Of course, on the other hand, if thePI system had been written properly, that wouldn't be a system-wide problem.r (That goes doubly for windows)  4 > 	No, he just seems to have firm grasp on reality,  > regardless of his  > personal preferences.e  L Well, I again disagree, but since this is a VMS group, it's all nit-picking,L and I'll stop now.  None of this really applies to the topic at hand anyway.   Regards,   Chrish    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developere Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");w '   b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:29:14 -05002( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011220101256.Y86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  * On 19 Dec 2001, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:   >s@ > Some of the statements may have been true, but the whole thingD > could still be wrong.  I don't know many people who would say unix > is easier for casual use.0  G Forgeting my bias for the moment, I run a couple dozen students throughrE the cycle every year.  I receive many more questions regarding how torE do things on VMS than I do for Unix.  After a semester of VMS usage I B am still fielding questions that show students haven't masterd the% filename/directory concept under VMS.i  B >                           Probably VMS is.  You enter a program, > compile, link, and run it.  E Under Unix, compile and run, link (an obviously necessary part anyway G is taken care of for you.  At least until you get into complex programs.G at which point some OS sophistication is to be expected no matter whicht OS we're talking about.)  F >                             All the commands have simple names after > the function that they do.   Same under Unix.  :-)t   > B > I wonder if VMS is an example of Brooks' 'second system effect.'H > All the features that didn't make it into the first system were added? > F > There is the different philosophy of unix, many simple commands thatG > can be used together in many complicated ways, vs. VMS a command thatC> > does exactly what you want because that is the way to do it.5 > (Maybe a little exagerating with those statements.)d  F Kind of like the difference between writting large monolithic programs  and modular structured programs.   > E > There are so many little things in unix that are there because they H > have always been there.  (example: -lm to get the math library for C).  C Are you saying that VMS will include external libraries without anyeE information about which ones are necessary??  Or does it just includer everything for every program??   >d@ > Somehow VMS reminds me of what my high school geometry teacherB > used to say about our proofs: "Why do it the easy way when there@ > is a hard way?"   Unix tries to be simple in design, maybe notH > simple to use.  VMS tries to be complicated even if simple would work.  H Real world experience dealing with people who arrive with no exposure toE either one is quite the contrary.  Of course, as time goes on, that's-E going to be changing.  More and more people are showing up with Linux D experience.  It's not Unix, but at the user level it's close enough.J I don't expect the numbers of students with VMS coming in from high schoolH to change much from it's curretn level of 0.  Continuing to at least getC them a little exposure here is getting tougher and is likely to getn worse rather than better.    >fD > I still remember trying to figure out the DCL command interpreter,@ > and the way to add new commands by compiling a special commandG > description language.  Compare that to unix shell filename expansion,-' > and argc/argv for command processing.0  I Don't get your point.  I can add a new command to Unix by merely writting I a script or writting a program.  Put it in a place in my Command PATH and H it automatically becomes a new command.  No special "command description
 language."   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:43:11 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011220103759.N86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  ) On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Edward Franks wrote:    >aE > 	Please don't point to any Un*x boxes.  In the corporate world only G > those desktops that run Office (or maybe WordPerfect) need apply, and E > since most people like to use the same stuff at home as they use att	 > work...l  E I guess I have to burst yet another persons bubble.  Before MS Office C used it's predatary business practices to beat the competition intoaJ submission, WordPerfect (the Office Suite and not just the word processor)E was available on Unix.  And you know what, it was available on VMS asnD well.  We were Beta-testers for both the VMS and SunOS versions.  ItG was a pretty good package for beta.  There was a lot of work being donerI insuring interoperability between all the versions for things like shared-H calendars, etc.  It was a major disappointment here when the project was	 scrapped.    > C > 	Yes, Windows sucks for a lot of things, but the real competitions > was even worse.i  E Matter of opinion.  It's just too bad that everyone stopped trying too compete.   bill   -- 1J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:30:07 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C22120F.26334D62@iee.org>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > do things on VMS than I do for Unix.  After a semester of VMS usage I D > am still fielding questions that show students haven't masterd the' > filename/directory concept under VMS.d  - Apart from the idea of a *slightly* different . syntax, exactly how much of a stretch is it to* go from any of DOS-syntax, Unix-syntax and- VMS-syntax to any of the others? Obviously ify( you know any one of them the others will initially look different.   % Anyway, since when did this turn into ! the weekly Unix.vs.VMS flamewwar?a& I'd've asked an innocent Unix question' if I'd wanted to see that one again :-)a   Antonioj   -- :   ---------------P- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgm   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:15:08 -0500e From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <4XoU7.735$vX6.200920@news1.iquest.net>v  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message < news:20011220103759.N86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu... >r > >PD > > Yes, Windows sucks for a lot of things, but the real competition > > was even worse.e >aG > Matter of opinion.  It's just too bad that everyone stopped trying to 
 > compete. >oG It  takes LOTS of assets to compete with the huge-pockets of Microsoft.a  F Perhaps if more of the investment in the tech boom was focused towardsC competing with Microsoft IN A DIRECTED WAY, then there'd maybe beeno more competition today.l  B The Larry Ellison network computing thing ended up being stillbornP after too much meddling and too much demoing.   Additionally, it architecturallyC had some nits that continued to make PCs superior (however horribleeR they are.)   There were wasteful political factions involved also, which decreasedA efficiency from an otherwise lean and mean development effort.  InE was in the middle of it, but looking on the outside as a work-at-home  person also.  B There were numerous other network computing-type competitions, theH FreeBSD/Linux/others competition were useful, but not providing adequateG full integrated products for desktop.   (I targeted my FreeBSD work foroE server loads, not desktops), but even that wasn't sufficient for muchnC server work.   Even if FreeBSD had more time spent towards it, like7C other thigns, the free stuff ends up being a herding cats syndrome.tH (This doesn't mean that diverse development is bad, but it isn't focused	  either.)   M Apple might have a chance (still) after its demi-resurrections, and they seemcD to be competing, but it SEEMS that there is some faltering going on.  J It is almost impossible to compete with Microsoft, WRT their layering uponN layering, black box (but heavyweight) APIs, and bundling.   They have infiniteE assets, and have purchased many of the bigger names in computing (not-Q that they always get it 'right.')   They even have some of the more 'interesting'3
 DSP-types.  J Fortunately for me, I am NOT an anti-Microsoft person, but also don't likeJ them very much.   This made me an advocate of contrary viewpoints, becauseM I believe that it should not be a crusade against Microsoft, but an educationlI of the user base about the alternatives.   Nowadays, for the desktop, theoL alternatives aren't as interesting relative to Microsoft as they used to be.F Even I am using Win2000 for casual stuff (I still prefer UNIX for moreL complex tasks, and have a good sized network for such work/experimentation.)   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:53:50 -0600N/ From: Edward Franks <fortrandragon@hotmail.com>.: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <MPG.168be1ac536a736898a98f@news.alt.net>e  > My glass typewriter shows Bill Todd, <billtodd@metrocast.net>  pondering... [Snip]E > You appear to have the same problem he does differentiating betweenl/ > technical superiority and commercial success.8  > 	No, I comprehend that words can have more than one meaning.    C 	For example, of VMS, TOPS-10/20, Unix, VM/MVS, OS/400, and RSTS/E tF which one is technically superior?  Can you give a definition that is C objectively unassailable or would your definition be situationally XE dependant?  If you can answer that question honestly and objectively g" then please supply the definition.  A 	I simply have the experience to know that determining technical hB 'superiority' depends on what you want to use your computer for.  I Different views of what constitutes that 'superiority' are neither right   nor wrong, just different.   -- 0  
 Edward Franksc <fortrandragon@hotmail.com>i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:11:28 -0600e/ From: Edward Franks <fortrandragon@hotmail.com>8: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <MPG.168be5cbb2d26f0898a990@news.alt.net>   > My glass typewriter shows Bill Gunshannon, <bill@cs.uofs.edu>  pondering... [Snip]5 > I guess I have to burst yet another persons bubble.f  > 	That's going to be difficult.  I have WordPerfect for my DEC 
 Rainbow.  ;-)t  C 	Also, please note the use word "and" in my original paragraph and    the following sentence fragment.   -- m  
 Edward Franks  <fortrandragon@hotmail.com>    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:08:04 -0500m0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: How to do daemons on VMS?4 Message-ID: <TgmU7.6218$Q06.35229@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   Or communicate thru mailboxes.H When you want to kill the daemon, send it a message to exit and it will.F Read the mbx in the daemon asynchronously, or synchronously as part of< execution loop. If the "exit now" message is read then exit. That's what I do.f   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)b> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  K "Jason O'Donnell" <jason_odonnell@erinet.com> a crit dans le message news: 2 5c8ffd05.0112180730.531b6955@posting.google.com...4 > Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message8 news:<howard-761D42.23303217122001@enews.newsguy.com>...8 > > In article <bxpT7.5442$Q06.31791@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>,6 > >  "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> wrote: > >-H > > > RUN PROCESS/DETACH is the way to go. FYI there is no such thing asH > > > parent/child process involved here. The process really is detached that is,C > > > has no realation whatsoever with the process that creates it.1G > > > If your process needs DCL, you create a procedure file (.com) andi
 RUN/DETACHJ > > > SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE /INPUT=your.com. If you don't need DCL, just! > > > RUN/DETACH yourprogram.EXE.? > >oK > > That all depends on how he wants to control his daemon.  If he wants too usee3 > > STOP/ID or if he wants to use the STOP/ENTRY...e >hH > We run all daemon processes.  We use logicals.  You set a logical thatD > the daemon reads regularly.  Like EDIT_DAE_SHUTDOWN can be TRUE or > FALSE. >k > JMOD   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:27:46 +0000D% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>55 Subject: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr8 Message-ID: <amv32u0f8g8eku9pi0ut2cdgl2rph3k2o0@4ax.com>  ? HP have just sent the following to shareholders. It's a 50 page C document and I got sick at page 5 where it says that not completing E the merger will leave "multiple O/S and technology platforms" but notw? if they complete the merger. The document also makes clear that @ Himalaya (mentioned by name) is safe. VMS gets no mention in theD document at all except presumably as part of the "multiple O/S" they intend to get rid of..  E Anyone still under the illusion that HP will not cancel VMS (and that F includes VMS engineering) needs their head examined). Feel you've beenC lied to by Compaq senior management. Then do something about it noweC before it is too late. You will not forgive yourselves later if youeF don't. Capellas is fully aware of this plan which is why he authorized@ a pretend IA64 port now which HP could then cancel later. Had heE canceled Alpha, VMS and Tru64 all on the same day all hell would havee> broken loose and he knows it Therefore he played us for fools.  E The DII-CE commitments on their own will not save VMS. Don't fall for0F the Compaq lies which have one purpose only. To prevent the sudden andF catastrophic loss of your money. They need to steal the income to fund> the rest of the sinking ship and their own enormous salaries.   D VMS either needs a new owner or else Compaq does. And that new owner can't be HP.   Read the whole thing at:  ) http://www.theinquirer.net/hpposition.pdf.   Fight this merger! -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:17:23 GMT0 From: duane@hunch.zk3.dec.com (Andrew Duane USG)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsg* Message-ID: <9vt2uj$co$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  _ In article <amv32u0f8g8eku9pi0ut2cdgl2rph3k2o0@4ax.com> Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:e  @ >HP have just sent the following to shareholders. It's a 50 pageD >document and I got sick at page 5 where it says that not completingF >the merger will leave "multiple O/S and technology platforms" but not@ >if they complete the merger. The document also makes clear thatA >Himalaya (mentioned by name) is safe. VMS gets no mention in the E >document at all except presumably as part of the "multiple O/S" theyr >intend to get rid of.  = I read the document, and can't figure out how you leap from a > one sentence bullet of "multiple O/S and technology platforms" to "we are going to kill VMS".   Total non-sequitor.   ; There are many reasons to oppose the merger, but leaping toa? conclusions based on a paranoid interpretation of one marketing  bullet doesn't help much.d  8 Note: I am not in VMS, I'm downstairs in Unix, where the% handwriting really is on the wall....    --  + Andrew L. Duane (JOT-7)			duane@zk3.dec.coms+ Compaq Computer Corporation		(603)-884-1294d 110 Spit Brook Roado M/S ZKO3-3/U14 Nashua, NH    03062-2698   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:35:35 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model, Message-ID: <3C21A2D2.177AE075@videotron.ca>  0 > >> Wasn't it Algore who invented the Internet?  N Sanity check here.  Is it possible that it was Al Gore who was instrumental inE getting the internet to go from a non-profit educational network to asM commercial one where the backbone routing woudl be done by commercial outfits ( such as Sprint instead of universities ?  G I am just trying to understand why Al Gore would have made the claim hee invented the internet.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:02:30 GMTaL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model8 Message-ID: <00A06C7A.769A5BA7@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  \ In article <3C21A2D2.177AE075@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:1 >> >> Wasn't it Algore who invented the Internet?. >sO >Sanity check here.  Is it possible that it was Al Gore who was instrumental intF >getting the internet to go from a non-profit educational network to aN >commercial one where the backbone routing woudl be done by commercial outfits) >such as Sprint instead of universities ?o >eH >I am just trying to understand why Al Gore would have made the claim he >invented the internet.o  N Well, since you asked: He didn't make the claim that he invented the Internet.E He made the (apparently correct) claim that he took the initiative inoN introducing the legislation that changed it from the non-commercial government+ funded thing to whatever it is we have now.    Vint Cerf agrees with him.   -- Alani    O ===============================================================================c0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210aO ===============================================================================o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:10:42 +0000h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model8 Message-ID: <1nh32u4tnfeu6b4015fr4khd5b5ghkgpko@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:52:51 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:    M >Before I made such a sweeping assertion I would go and talk to Paul SantelercM >and his cronies in high-end ISSG engineering. And to the folks who are doing @ >the Adaptive Infrastructure software for the QuickBlade family. >e; >It is IMHO arguable that some of that stuff is innovative.a  B Then talk to Doug Williams and ask him why he told a DECUS meetingF last month that "you don't get anywhere by being different" To be fairB I think he was spouting the Compaq party line not his own personal belief.i >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:09:33 +0000t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>?2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model8 Message-ID: <u2h32uk2520jpdmlpbkhpb8nob6s770kpo@4ax.com>  / On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:13 +0100, John McLeanp& <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote:   >o >iI >The theme this week seems to have been on business strategies and that'snH >got me thinking about what Compaq have been doing and why they may have >been doing it.t >u > A >Maybe it all comes down to a single idea - Compaq are simply nott >innovators.  > "You don't get anywhere these days by being different" we wereE informed at DECUS in London a month ago by Doug Williams (Director ofhB Alpha/IPF strategy I believe). When I said "DEC became the world'sC second largest computer company by being different." he just lookedh away.o  7 How do you "innovate" without being different I wonder?t     >gF >Terminating the NT-on-Alpha project was probably also a bad move, butH >with NT being pretty unstable at the time, the performance advantage of >Alpha may have been lost.  ? I can absolutely assure you that Alpha/NT running a maths heavyP? package such as Ansys was rock solid stable on the platform andmF blazingly fast. NT is not too bad if all it has to do is boot then get> out of the way for an individual app - just providing basic OS/ services for file access, graphics display etc.e  F There was the added convenience that our normal desktop support peopleB could then help out with minor user problems. Had Ansys still beenD available with VMS and had VMS support been available for the XP1000A initially then that's what we would have bought. Given the choiceg? between a Tru64 desktop and an NT desktop the NT option was then% easiest to support and it works fine.     H >Just expanding the markets could easily throw up ideas and applicationsI >that Compaq have never considered.  Just as importantly it will create a F >good differentiator in the services and consulting area.  Unix and NTC >people are easy to find, but Himalaya and VMS people are somethingfF >else.  Extend the market for the systems and the consulting work will  @ Thanks to DEC driving VMS out of academia as fast as they could.  F >soon follow.  Suddenly they are not so much a me-too player any more,E >but they have something different to offer, something starting to ben >innovative. >  > * >Shouldn't be that difficult, should it ?? >t >  >John McLean   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:05:44 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model% Message-ID: <9vsk6o$5in@web.nmti.com>g  / In article <u21b6ihnpr005a@corp.supernews.com>, % Jeff Killeen <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:hL > My expereince is late 486 and beyond.  The specific expereinces I had wereI > related disk controllers (specfically SCSI) and matched what the Compaqu > folks said below...i  I I've struggled with a few of those old Compaq 486 and early Pentium based K boxes with the built-in SCSI RAID hardware. Apart from the complete lack ofaI any drivers for anything more recent than NT 3.51, they seemed to have noa0 advantages over a separate Mylex SCSI RAID card.   -- D+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 11:56:45 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.coml2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model+ Message-ID: <9vsqvu$d80$1@bob.news.rcn.net>f  8 In article <kfd12u8i7imffj44m5jo0a5u7dhqrlqi0s@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:wG >On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:54:26 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:' >e >>A >>"Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message-: >>news:JAMT7.17784$Sj1.10335026@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >>> K >>> > Hell, if Compaq had invented Internet 20 years ago we would probably e not1
 >>> be havinge/ >>> > this kind of online discussion right now.s >>> >  >>>n/ >>> Wasn't it Algore who invented the Internet?7 >> >>I >>Nah. He was just the guy in Marketing. He's the guy who created demand.e >gD >As nobody's said it yet he should really have claimed to be the guyC >who invented the Algorithm - or Al Gore Rhythm to give it its fulli	 >name :-)a >v% > Not sure who came up with that one.t >j0 The co-authors who did all of the real work did.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:02:27 GMTt' From: ben_myers@charter.net (Ben Myers)n2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model/ Message-ID: <3c21ef56.1370348@news.charter.net>l  M Ah, exactly!  That's engineering "innovation" for you, as practiced by the Q.n  
 ... Ben Myersg  D On 20 Dec 2001 12:05:44 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:  0 >In article <u21b6ihnpr005a@corp.supernews.com>,& >Jeff Killeen <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote:M >> My expereince is late 486 and beyond.  The specific expereinces I had wereeJ >> related disk controllers (specfically SCSI) and matched what the Compaq >> folks said below... > J >I've struggled with a few of those old Compaq 486 and early Pentium basedL >boxes with the built-in SCSI RAID hardware. Apart from the complete lack ofJ >any drivers for anything more recent than NT 3.51, they seemed to have no1 >advantages over a separate Mylex SCSI RAID card.m >n >-- , > `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.F >  'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."M >                                                       -- nicolai@esperi.orgn >         Disclaimer: WWFD?l  	 Ben Myersa Spirit of Performance, Inc.i 73 Westcott Road Harvard, MA 01451  tel: 978-456-3889E eFax: 810-963-0412 e  PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:54:07 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>h2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model5 Message-ID: <3C21FB8F.5EFB1361@swissonline.delete.ch>g   Alan Greig wrote:y > 1 > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:13 +0100, John McLean ( > <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote: >  >..r > >bC > >Maybe it all comes down to a single idea - Compaq are simply nott > >innovators. > @ > "You don't get anywhere these days by being different" we wereG > informed at DECUS in London a month ago by Doug Williams (Director offD > Alpha/IPF strategy I believe). When I said "DEC became the world'sE > second largest computer company by being different." he just looked( > away.r >   D 1.  What a terribly sad attitude - "We don't want to be different toG everyone else"!  That's a real vote for mediocrity if ever I heard one.h  F 2.  Maybe Compaq will give up VMS and Himalaya ...maybe to someone who is happy to different.     John McLeano   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:57:39 -0500n; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>a2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model$ Message-ID: <3c220a7f$1@news.si.com>  H >I am just trying to understand why Al Gore would have made the claim he >invented the internet.v  I Actually, he never said this.  Some Republican talk show host said that's K what he said and the sheep took it as gospel.  He actually said some of hisn4 legislation made possible the Internet as it is now. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comtA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventc< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:40:36 +0000F% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model8 Message-ID: <bi142u4uc0dkomatb79cdulm0k9k49m6a4@4ax.com>  / On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:54:07 +0100, John McLeanh& <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote:   >cE >1.  What a terribly sad attitude - "We don't want to be different tonH >everyone else"!  That's a real vote for mediocrity if ever I heard one. > G >2.  Maybe Compaq will give up VMS and Himalaya ...maybe to someone whor >is happy to different..  E John, see my posting of the HP letter to shareholders. Makes it cleara' Himalaya is safe and that VMS is toast.  >m >  >John McLean   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:21:08 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model> Message-ID: <UdoU7.20642$Sj1.11534718@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3c220a7f$1@news.si.com...J > >I am just trying to understand why Al Gore would have made the claim he > >invented the internet.  >sK > Actually, he never said this.  Some Republican talk show host said that'sfI > what he said and the sheep took it as gospel.  He actually said some ofe hisr6 > legislation made possible the Internet as it is now.  H Algore was pretty careful WRT Internet claims when he keynoted the DutchH Innovate conference in Den Haag back in September. The guy did make some interesting points though.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:32:18 -05004( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business modelB Message-ID: <20011220113159.V86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  $ On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, JF Mezei wrote:  2 > > >> Wasn't it Algore who invented the Internet? > P > Sanity check here.  Is it possible that it was Al Gore who was instrumental inG > getting the internet to go from a non-profit educational network to a O > commercial one where the backbone routing woudl be done by commercial outfitsE* > such as Sprint instead of universities ? >nI > I am just trying to understand why Al Gore would have made the claim heI > invented the internet. >T   Delusions of grandeur??a   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 17:11:10 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)2 Subject: Re: Learn about the Compaq business model% Message-ID: <9vt63e$855@web.nmti.com>   8 In article <u2h32uk2520jpdmlpbkhpb8nob6s770kpo@4ax.com>,' Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: A > I can absolutely assure you that Alpha/NT running a maths heavy.A > package such as Ansys was rock solid stable on the platform andiH > blazingly fast. NT is not too bad if all it has to do is boot then get@ > out of the way for an individual app - just providing basic OS1 > services for file access, graphics display etc.   J And people think I'm kidding in http://www.taronga.com/~peter/io/nt.html .  ( Well, maybe a little. But only a little.   -- s+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva..E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."yL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:57:09 +0100v, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>2 Subject: Minute Day of the DCL: the 2001 Challenge& Message-ID: <3C223486.D311C1BF@gmx.ch>  + Welcome to the 2001 DCL Christmas Challenge.& "No DEC system should be without one!"   Here is a FORTRAN programd   !         SUBROUTINE TXCRYP(R,LINE)o         IMPLICIT INTEGER (A-Z)         CHARACTER*(*) LINE Ch         DO 100 I=1,LEN(LINE)           X=(R.AND.31)+I0           LINE(I:I)=CHAR(ICHAR(LINE(I:I)).XOR.X) 100     CONTINUE         RETURN         ENDi   (R is an integer)   H You have until Sunday the 6th of January 2001 to write an equivalent DCLI procedure in DCL using the DCL (real) programming language, I mean: DCL !i  I I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (as I'm gone to ski # tomorrow morning, without Internet)2   D. -- xG   ---------------------------------------------------------------------fE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlaE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670e/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.c  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:48:33 -0500e4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>1 Subject: Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questionsn4 Message-ID: <3C21EC31.9060908@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Robert DiRosario wrote:    > "John E. Malmberg" wrote:m > H >>As I recall, the FORCEUNI value is also really opposite what you might >>intuitively think it is. >> > M > That was the problem.  I changed FORCEUNI from 1 to 0 and now I see all thel > drives.  Thanks! > P > Will the HSD10 serve tape drives to the entire cluster or just to nodes on the > DSSI bus?9J > The cluster manual states that only TA or TF drives can be server to the
 > cluster.    E The HSD10 only serves the devices up to the hosts on the DSSI bus of eC course.  It makes supported SCSI tape devices look like TF devices.e  I OpenVMS can serve various tape devices to the clusters if the TMSCP_LOAD r1 and TMSCP_SERVE_ALL parameters are set correctly.     H > I have a 3800, which has a KFQSA adapter.  Can I put a KFQSA on a DSSIH > bus with SCS traffic to provide disk access to the 3800?  (Is the nodeG > to node and node to disk traffic both "SCS" traffic or is the node tot > disk just "MSCP"?)    8 MSCP uses the SCS protocol link to go from node to node.  F The KFQSA can not carry SCS traffic.  It is also slightly slower than > the embedded DSSI adapters due to Q-Bus bandwidth limitations.  F The KFQSA will only give it's host a direct link to the storage.  The G SCS traffic will need to go through a different interconnect, probably . ethernet in your case.  ? The KFQSA is also one of the more complicated q-bus widgets to t/ configure, so I hope that you have a manual :-)o   -John  malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:20:25 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>1 Subject: Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questionsb- Message-ID: <87lmfx6eye.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  3 Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> writes:r  C > Will the HSD10 serve tape drives to the entire cluster or just tooF > nodes on the DSSI bus?  The cluster manual states that only TA or TF& > drives can be server to the cluster.  ? The manual was written prior to the HSDs. For all purposes, anyt? tape you put on the HSD *is* a TF tape. BTW, setting up the HSDiA for tapes is 'fun'. Post what you have, exact model of drive, and ' ask for the mix to feed the controller.=   -- =< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 04:06:06 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>g# Subject: Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-DelL, Message-ID: <3C21A9F7.53EBC8E2@videotron.ca>   Lyndon Bartels wrote:4J > I, as a professional, try to live up to a higher standard, and sometimesE > it's hard to get across to others in my field that the Ctrl-Alt-DeliA > doesn't "fix" anything. It just makes it "go away" for a while.s  @ I learned "Alt-Ctrl-Del". Seems everyone else is "Ctrl-Alt-Del".  L I am trying to figure out why I would have learned it as "Alt-Ctrl-Del".  IfL it was "Alt-Ctrl-Del" in the erarly days of the IBM-PC, what changed to make it "Ctrl-Alt-Del" ?d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:26:46 -0000t8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk># Subject: RE: More than Ctrl-Alt-Del N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF18A@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  G > Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't "fix" anything. It just makes it "go away" for ae while. u  L Well, I clearly remember a time when Ctrl-P would certainly make VMS go away ;-)D  K Nowadays, as I normally access my VMS systems using Exceed on a Windows PC, K Ctrl-Alt-Del will also put VMS out of sight for me. However, the wonders ofaJ disconnected virtual terminals permit me to resume my VMS sessions where I! left off after restarting Exceed.e   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)o   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:34:18 +0100 (MET)r9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> # Subject: Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-Delu; Message-ID: <01KC3AN9VCZY9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>A  B > I learned "Alt-Ctrl-Del". Seems everyone else is "Ctrl-Alt-Del". > N > I am trying to figure out why I would have learned it as "Alt-Ctrl-Del".  IfN > it was "Alt-Ctrl-Del" in the erarly days of the IBM-PC, what changed to make > it "Ctrl-Alt-Del" ?a  E Easy.  This was one of the important new features introduced between  @ Windows 95 and Windows 98.  In addition, in a remarkable fit of F engineering ingenuity, Microsoft has stated that it will indefinitely E support BOTH versions.  This from a press release by Bill "don't say e. we're not backwards compatible" Gates himself!  E You might ask WHY?  Simple, marketing: Windows can now be sold as an l out-of-the-box CAD system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:07:30 -0800e% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>a# Subject: Re: More than Ctrl-Alt-Delk) Message-ID: <3C2228E2.98724B92@rdrop.com>o   John Macallister wrote:n > N > Well, I clearly remember a time when Ctrl-P would certainly make VMS go away > ;-)   G Still can, on a console, at least on some systems.  True story:  We gotoF a phone call from a customer who was having problems with a VMS systemH "crashing".  They had logged onto the console for some screwball reason,F and were trying to "screen print" whatever it was to fax it to us- butA every time they did, they got '>>>' and users reported the systemtE stopped responding.  Of course, their PC-centric mind was having themv) press Ctrl-P to get the "screen print"...t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:32:17 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.e, Message-ID: <3C21A20C.FE27722C@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:B >    Proprietary system?  Heck, no, they want us all to migrate to
 >    Windoze.e > D >    Now just what do you pick for the most proprietary OS on Earth?  J There is nothing wrong with a healthy proprietary system. But when you areJ stuck on a proprietyary system its vendor cannot be trusted to continue toL support/improve and work hard to grow and attract new applications you need,3 then you are truly stuck as a slave to that system.i  M Microsoft is clear about its intentions to grow Windows to conquer the world.MB But Compaq has little or no credibility with its treatment of VMS.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:55:55 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.i= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112200655.26fd3421@posting.google.com>e  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C21A20C.FE27722C@videotron.ca>...s > Bob Koehler wrote:D > >    Proprietary system?  Heck, no, they want us all to migrate to > >    Windoze.  > > F > >    Now just what do you pick for the most proprietary OS on Earth? > L > There is nothing wrong with a healthy proprietary system. But when you areL > stuck on a proprietyary system its vendor cannot be trusted to continue toN > support/improve and work hard to grow and attract new applications you need,5 > then you are truly stuck as a slave to that system.l > O > Microsoft is clear about its intentions to grow Windows to conquer the world.nD > But Compaq has little or no credibility with its treatment of VMS.  C Once VMS is ported to Itanium, it will no longer be proprietary ...c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:39:28 +0000v% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.l8 Message-ID: <ma142ucp03t4hic7s9rahrifcg41ukchb6@4ax.com>  A On 20 Dec 2001 06:55:55 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)e wrote:  b >JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C21A20C.FE27722C@videotron.ca>... >> Bob Koehler wrote:eE >> >    Proprietary system?  Heck, no, they want us all to migrate too >> >    Windoze. >> > iG >> >    Now just what do you pick for the most proprietary OS on Earth?b >> mM >> There is nothing wrong with a healthy proprietary system. But when you areJM >> stuck on a proprietyary system its vendor cannot be trusted to continue to O >> support/improve and work hard to grow and attract new applications you need,S6 >> then you are truly stuck as a slave to that system. >> IP >> Microsoft is clear about its intentions to grow Windows to conquer the world.E >> But Compaq has little or no credibility with its treatment of VMS.a >dD >Once VMS is ported to Itanium, it will no longer be proprietary ...  E Wow HP-UX is already available for IA64 so it must not be proprietarynE then. Excellent I shall go off and copy the distribution CDs and sell D them at a price slightly undercutting HP. And I can't wait until the? official Windows for IA64 CDs come out. Then I'll really make a & killing. Thank you for making me rich! -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:27:13 -05004( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.4B Message-ID: <20011220122544.E86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  # On 20 Dec 2001, Bob Ceculski wrote:s   >lE > Once VMS is ported to Itanium, it will no longer be proprietary ...w >e  E Porting it from VAX to Alpha didn't make it non-proprietary, how willi' porting it to the Itanium change that??b   bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:30:30 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e; Subject: Re: Move to an HP OS, most folks would rather not.n3 Message-ID: <B+qq9b4vO1IA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <20011220122544.E86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:o% > On 20 Dec 2001, Bob Ceculski wrote:n >  >>F >> Once VMS is ported to Itanium, it will no longer be proprietary ... >> > G > Porting it from VAX to Alpha didn't make it non-proprietary, how willL) > porting it to the Itanium change that??g >   < 	Industry Standard Server.  So instead of railing against it> 	we can now shout it from the rooftops and Winston Smith would
 	be proud!   				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:03:35 -0000e+ From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com>o, Subject: OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool& Message-ID: <3c21e1a9$1@pull.gecm.com>  D Can anyone please point me at a (free) tool to display the installedH hardware on an OpenVMS Alpha system.  I am looking for something similar to the SG IRIX hinv command.   TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Groupe Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:22:20 +0000C( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool) Message-ID: <3C21E60C.80DB7A73@127.0.0.1>l   Tim Jackson wrote:F > Can anyone please point me at a (free) tool to display the installedJ > hardware on an OpenVMS Alpha system.  I am looking for something similar > to the SG IRIX hinv command.   Tim,  
 $ ANAL/SYS SDA> CLUE CONFIG   > Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.   E Or call your helpdesk who may well eventually put you in direct touchM with us!   -- i( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 11:16:46 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha hardware listing tool3 Message-ID: <2ukQ55S+KtBB@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  T In article <3c21e1a9$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> writes:F > Can anyone please point me at a (free) tool to display the installedJ > hardware on an OpenVMS Alpha system.  I am looking for something similar > to the SG IRIX hinv command.      $ show device  B    But nowdays you'll certainly have to figure oout which ones are!    software, so use this instead:o      >>> show device   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:23:51 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline, Message-ID: <3C21A013.42EA36AF@videotron.ca>   Jerry Leslie wrote:-J >    "We're porting OpenVMS to a new platform, Itanium, and the future forB >    VMS customers looks very bright," said Richard George, Compaq" >    AlphaServer business manager.  = What is Mr George's hierarchical relationship with Marcello ?0  J >    Compaq is stressing that although the Tru64 plan overrides a previousG >    strategy to port the operating system to Itanium, other enterprisen >    plans remain in place.t  C The problem is that Compaq has demonstrated its willingess to breakeL commitments,  so if some Compaq employee says "other enterprise plans remainP in place", I would add "unless the folks at the WInkler level decide otherwise".  K The statement about VMS is neat, but it packs no punch. If it had come from?N Capellas or Winkler, perhaps it would have had a bit of credibility. But as itK stands, such as statement is in the same ranks as "pro-Alpha" presentationsd8 made on June 24th blasting IA64 as an inferior platform.      H >    keeping the faith. Early this month, Compaq said it won its biggestF >    ever Alpha contract to supply the US government with AlphaServers >    running Tru64 Unix.  G Anyone who buys dead gear (Alpha and or Tru64) now is probably doing soeJ because of a short term need for that specific hardware performance and/orJ software feature.  When you invest a lot of time and effort to build a newL long term system, you won't be inclined to choose one which will last only 5F years. But if you just need raw power ASAP to find Bin laden or renderK Titanic, then if it does the job now, you don't really care that it will ber< dead in 5 years since by then the project will be long done.    G >    Compaq said that despite the changes in enterprise strategy, it is . >    offering clear directions for customers.   L The problem is that compaq has no credibility, so whatever the grunts at theM low end say to comfort the customers, it doesn't necessarily reflect the trueo corporate strategy.   H >    "When we announced that Alpha on NT support would be stopped we didF >    not lose a single customer contract worth more than 100,000."  "  9 Did they have any NT customers worth more than 100,000 ?3  M And more importantly, hwo did the dropping of NT affect future sales on Alpha L ? (since it tarnished its image). Compaq seems very happy to just talk about maintaining the installed base.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:21:46 +0000N% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> & Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline8 Message-ID: <a6i32uovaap15nv5158kqihlkscaa36qk2@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:06:25 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:    I >>    "When we announced that Alpha on NT support would be stopped we didCG >>    not lose a single customer contract worth more than 100,000."  "e > H >Ah!  So the fact that firm commitments were discarded like so much usedM >toilet paper didn't matter, because no major customers got mad (at least notBK >*that* time...).  From comments some have made here, I would have expectedu >something better from Richard.5  ? Richard has to be careful what he says. In any case his wordingrE implies that they probably did lose significant sales. By his wordingrE they could have lost 100 contracts worth $90,000 dollars. At the very-; least it implies a loss of at least one close to $100,000. 3   >- billr >  >n   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:24:45 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline8 Message-ID: <kfi32uc6e1qoq4unp3dd5u079vhn3b1g3o@4ax.com>  5 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:35:37 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"g <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:     > G >I would caution here that this person (a "manager") appears to be less  >than a V.P.  C It was he (Richard George) who authorized the wonderful ads for VMSr@ that actually ran in the UK last year. One of his direct reportsE instigated them but unfortunately I can't recall his name even thoughS I met him last week.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:34:18 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline8 Message-ID: <4fm32uojuu185rj91jcapn2eetrisk59us@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:23:51 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >Jerry Leslie wrote:K >>    "We're porting OpenVMS to a new platform, Itanium, and the future for C >>    VMS customers looks very bright," said Richard George, Compaq"# >>    AlphaServer business manager.n >o> >What is Mr George's hierarchical relationship with Marcello ?  C Difficult to say as he's part of  Compaq UK.  Don't know how CompaquE organize these things. He does appear to have the freedom to initiate C UK marketing campaigns for VMS and Alpha and, I've been told, thesef@ produced noticeable increases in sales. Why Compaq US didn't run similar is a very good questiona   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:27:21 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112200627.17cced0f@posting.google.com>o  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C21A013.42EA36AF@videotron.ca>...y > Jerry Leslie wrote:nL > >    "We're porting OpenVMS to a new platform, Itanium, and the future forD > >    VMS customers looks very bright," said Richard George, Compaq$ > >    AlphaServer business manager. > I > Anyone who buys dead gear (Alpha and or Tru64) now is probably doing sonL > because of a short term need for that specific hardware performance and/orL > software feature.  When you invest a lot of time and effort to build a newN > long term system, you won't be inclined to choose one which will last only 5H > years. But if you just need raw power ASAP to find Bin laden or renderM > Titanic, then if it does the job now, you don't really care that it will be > > dead in 5 years since by then the project will be long done. >   J EV7 thru EV79 will be viable for longer than 5 years ... you buy Alpha VMSH for security and the best 24x7 and clustering OS ("unhackable") and bestM 64 bit performance now, and in 5-7 years, maybe 10 for smaller companies, the-H Itanium port will be there with cheaper boxes to be had ... that is the M roadmap, it couldn't be any clearer unless it hit you on the head!  Why would K any IT manager want windoze blue screens or code red or nimda or unix linuxsK (gag!) bugs and pseudo clustering as an alternative!  If you are on or havetK plans to run on anything else, I express my personal condolences to you ...u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:02:23 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)t& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline7 Message-ID: <917D74AA8warrenspencer1977@207.126.101.97>   I leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) wrote in <9vpu7o$6j2$2@joe.rice.edu>::  : >   http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2101120,00.html9 >   ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - OpenVMS handed a lifelinel >e& >   06:31 Wednesday 19th December 2001 >   Martin Veitch, IT Week >l
 -- snip --  I >   "We're porting OpenVMS to a new platform, Itanium, and the future forsA >   VMS customers looks very bright," said Richard George, Compaq ! >   AlphaServer business manager.t >   H When the "AlphaServer business manager" says the future looks bright forI an area he apparently doesn't manage (oVMS), and his just got EOL'd, well  geeze, where's my sunglasses?    ws   -- j   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)i The Associated Press  @ * My employer may not agree with my statements - neither do I *    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:44:36 +0000:% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>g& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a Lifeline8 Message-ID: <5l142ucsl6441huhlura1m49in5nh3s504@4ax.com>  A On 20 Dec 2001 06:27:21 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)" wrote:     >eK >EV7 thru EV79 will be viable for longer than 5 years ... you buy Alpha VMSaI >for security and the best 24x7 and clustering OS ("unhackable") and bestoN >64 bit performance now, and in 5-7 years, maybe 10 for smaller companies, theI >Itanium port will be there with cheaper boxes to be had ... that is the sN >roadmap, it couldn't be any clearer unless it hit you on the head!  Why would  D And HP could not make it any clearer without hitting you on the headA that they intend to kill VMS. See the letter to shareholders I've  recently posted references to.  C HPs lawyers must have found a way out of any commitments. Don't getxC these things scrutinized by IT people or tame lawyers. Give it to a0C top lawyer and say "I'm HP and have taken over Compaq. How do I getR out of this."   L >any IT manager want windoze blue screens or code red or nimda or unix linuxL >(gag!) bugs and pseudo clustering as an alternative!  If you are on or haveL >plans to run on anything else, I express my personal condolences to you ...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:04:35 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a LifelineB Message-ID: <20011220110334.A86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  * On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Ed Wensell III wrote:   > Jerry Leslie wrote:  > >n= > >    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2101120,00.html < > >    ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - OpenVMS handed a lifeline >-- > A long future on Alpha was also promised...  >m< > Time for the customers to take matters in their own hands. >a% > http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html   D Hmmmm.  Wonder what the chances are the kernel would be small enough% to get this to fit on a PDP-11??  :-)n     bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:55:33 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>& Subject: Re: OpenVMS Handed a LifelineB Message-ID: <FuqU7.174325$C8.12080404@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messaget7 news:d7791aa1.0112200627.17cced0f@posting.google.com...c   ...6  L > EV7 thru EV79 will be viable for longer than 5 years ... you buy Alpha VMSJ > for security and the best 24x7 and clustering OS ("unhackable") and bestK > 64 bit performance now, and in 5-7 years, maybe 10 for smaller companies,m theeI > Itanium port will be there with cheaper boxes to be had ... that is theoD > roadmap, it couldn't be any clearer unless it hit you on the head!  : Actually, that's not correct:  it could be as clear as the@ equally-'committed' Alpha road map that existed until June 25th.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:11:12 -0500a- From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>v Subject: Re: Oracle 8i on VMSr+ Message-ID: <sc21ab4d.056@AAASMTA.aaas.org>e   Lyndon,k  J We haven't moved it into production yet, but we're migrating a 7.3.4 app =E on OpenVMS 7.1 to 8i on OpenVMS 7.2-1. The 8i version is *orders of =d! magnitude faster* out of the box.    Some questions:d  ( Are the Oracle user's quotas correct?=20  G Are you running 8i on any other platform with success (NT, Solaris)?=20 E We had an Oracle consultant come in and tune the new DB - there are = J significant changes to the memory pool layouts. You now have a Java pool =7 for example. Are all your memory pools tuned correctly?i  A Did you configure VMS to pin the SGA in memory through SYSMAN?=20v  H I assume you analyzed all your tables and indexes. Did you run EXPLAIN =K PLANS on a query on both systems to be sure that your execution plans are =oJ close? Have you run benchmarks on specific SQL queries? Are your queries = tuned?  L Did you just upgrade an exisiting system or perhaps a clean install on new =	 hardware?s  J A little more info about your environment might be helpful (perhaps even = your init.ora).=20   Regards, John  G >>> Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> 12/19/2001 11:08:10 PM >>>eG Has anyone worked with Oracle 8i (8.1.7 I think) on VMS? Have they seenl0 performance problems? Have they found solutions?  B We're working with 7.2-1, 7.2-2, and 7.3, and all have performance6 problems with Oracle v8i, versus versions Oracle v7.x.  D All versions of VMS are updated with the very latest ECOs, including/ LIBRTL v4.0 for VMS 7.2-1. (I got that Monday.)n     Thoughts? Experiences?     TIA,   Lyndon     --=20hG My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of myi	 employer.f    H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 08:19:42 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)M Subject: Re: Oracle 8i on VMSl3 Message-ID: <fkzVJDlAqQWG@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  _ In article <3C211DDA.18DE638D@pressenter.com>, Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes: I > Has anyone worked with Oracle 8i (8.1.7 I think) on VMS? Have they seeno2 > performance problems? Have they found solutions? > D > We're working with 7.2-1, 7.2-2, and 7.3, and all have performance8 > problems with Oracle v8i, versus versions Oracle v7.x. >  > F > All versions of VMS are updated with the very latest ECOs, including1 > LIBRTL v4.0 for VMS 7.2-1. (I got that Monday.)  >  >  > Thoughts? Experiences? >  	-6 	Yeah.. start here  http://www.orafaq.com/faqdbapf.htm  ; 	Just curious.. did an end loser come to you and say thingsv> 	are slow?  But seriously... performance problems?  This isn'tE 	art where one painting looks better than another.  If you are having-& 	performance problems, where are they?   				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:16:17 -0500>0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> Subject: Re: Oracle 8i on VMSo4 Message-ID: <PgnU7.6228$Q06.34364@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  & I`m using 806 and it runs fairly well.H The only performance problems I find are with badly written programs. orC failure to have indexes where they are needed, and stuff like this.w   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)3> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  E "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> a crit dans le message news:.( fkzVJDlAqQWG@eisner.encompasserve.org...? > In article <3C211DDA.18DE638D@pressenter.com>, Lyndon Bartelss! <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes:sK > > Has anyone worked with Oracle 8i (8.1.7 I think) on VMS? Have they seenn4 > > performance problems? Have they found solutions? > > F > > We're working with 7.2-1, 7.2-2, and 7.3, and all have performance: > > problems with Oracle v8i, versus versions Oracle v7.x. > >e > >,H > > All versions of VMS are updated with the very latest ECOs, including3 > > LIBRTL v4.0 for VMS 7.2-1. (I got that Monday.)g > >  > >E > > Thoughts? Experiences? > >a >o7 > Yeah.. start here  http://www.orafaq.com/faqdbapf.htmo >s< > Just curious.. did an end loser come to you and say things? > are slow?  But seriously... performance problems?  This isn't F > art where one painting looks better than another.  If you are having' > performance problems, where are they?e >a > Rob  >    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:08:21 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)-A Subject: Re: PROBLEMS CREATING USER ACCOUNT ON VAX VMS V6.0??????o0 Message-ID: <9vsrcl$cje$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  q In article <c28c7d89.0112181338.71c7f417@posting.google.com>, alex.feliziani@space.gc.ca (Alex Feliziani) writes:mG >I am going crazy trying to set up a simple user account and being able A >to log in. After having installed the operating system i did then4 >following in order to add a user account on $disk1. >r
 >STEP ONE!( >$ create/directory dka300:[000000.alex], >$ set directory/owner_uic = [200,10] [alex]& >$ copy login.com dka300:[000000.alex] >$ run sys$system:authorizes > L >UAF> add alex/password=montreal/uic=[200,10]/device=dka300/directory=[alex]) >     /account=rss/owner="Alex Feliziani"t! >UAF> modify alex/flags=nodisusere > A >>I basically wanted to know exactly what path and what files arelG >accesed when one enters a user account and a password. For some reasonhG >i believe it is not going to the right path. I also wanted to know why C >when i do a show alex in the UAF of the root directory it tells merD >that the user does not exist, but when i do it on DKA300:[000000] iF >get the information for the account. It seems as if the sysuaf in theG >root directory sys$sysroot:sysmgr does not have the alex account info.aD >I would really appreciate any help at all. This has been driving meE >crazy for a while as a side project. If more information is needed i  >will post it up.a  F AUTHORIZE expects the files SYSUAF.DAT and RIGHSLIST.DAT to be in yourG current default directory. The operating system expects the files to bee@ in SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]. What happens is that the two files willG be created whenever they are not present when you call AUTHORIZE. Thus,pG you have the files at least twice: the unmodified version in the systempD tree and the modified version on DKA300:[000000] and perhaps in some other directories, too.e  2 In order to get what you want you have to options: - Do a$   $ SET DEFAULT sys$sysroot:[sysmgr]   before you call AUTHORIZEdC - define the logical SYSUAF system-wide with the /EXEC qualifier torJ   point to your desired location. Then both, the system and AUTHORIZE will9   expect the file to be where the logical is pointing to.m'   The same applies to RIGHTSLIST , e.g.c8   $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC sysuaf disk:[directory]sysuaf.dat@   $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC rightslist disk:[directory]rightslist.dat   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 04:44:44 -0500.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r( Subject: Re: QIOs, ASTs, and Event Flags, Message-ID: <3C21B303.8A11E7AC@videotron.ca>   Lyndon Bartels wrote: D > Each of these tasks is in it's own little procedure. The parameterD > passed to the AST routine is the value off the connection channel.4 > Otherwise all variables inside routines are local.    G Suggestion: pass a pointer to a structure instead. That structure wouldiN contain not only the connection channel, but also the io status blocks, statusI of the connection and any other data that is specific to that connection.a  9 When the connection closes, you can deallocate the block.e  L Note that its is critically important that the iosb be persistant as long asP the QIO is outstanding and that an iosb not be shared by 2 IOs at the same time.  , > status = sys$synch(event_flag,local_iosb);    L This is very dangerous inside of an AST.  While it is waiting, no other AStsM will be running, they will patiently wait in the single queue for your AST to 
 complete.     F > I'm not sure how to use the event flags, should each qio call have a > unique event flag?  U Do you really need event flags ? If not, just specify "0" in the efent flag argument.   J Consider that there are limited number of event flags available.  Ideally,F each stream should have its own set of event flags so that it does notN interfere with the other stream. So you could run out of available event flagsG fairly quickly on a loaded system with lots con concurrent connections.3  2 > Should that event flag be a local variable, or a > global one?   K The event flag per say is somewhere in the system. LIB$GET_EF only gives anaL event flag number you can use. If LIB$GET_EF tells you flag "17" is yours toF use, then you can specify "17" as a EFN value in QIO, and when that IOE completes, event flag 17 will be set, not needing any storage in your  application program.  K This is different than the IOSB or the buffer for a read operation, both of L which need storage in your application program and you must ensure that this; storage be available/persistant until the IO has completed..  K It is up to you to decide if you want to remember that you were given eventn1 flag 17 after the AST/subroutine has completed.  p  > > I understand that both the event_flag and the iosb should beD > from the qio call.... to test that *THAT* qio call is the one that. > completed. And not one of any other threads.  N Be careful, a iosb that exists only during the duration of a subroutine can beJ dangerous. You must ensure that the io will absolutely complete before theN subroutine returns to its called and the iosb get freed.  If the iosb is freedK before the IO completes, when the IO completes, it will still write at thatoG address, but that piece of memory may have been allocated to some other-L routine in your program and the IO will corrupt the data in another routine.    N This si why I recomment that you pass to your AST's the address of a structureN that contains all relevant information that persists throughout the connectionH from a client. This way, your IOSB, channel number etc etc are preservedH across subroutine calls and once the connection has been closed, you canM dealloacte the structure. (each connection establishement woudl result in onerN such structure being malloc'ed, so each connection gets its own sand box whereE it can play as it wishes without fearing others interfereing with it.tH > If I've got multiple clients talking to the server simultaneously, allJ > conversations should be able to proceed at it's on pace, and not have to( > wait for the other threads to proceed.  M Remember that from your application point of view, only one AST executes at adM time. So any AST which waits for something to complete will prevent servicingtQ of other clients during that wait. So your $Synch is dangerous with that regards.   M You best bet is to set a byte in your connection context block, then call theeJ QIO, requesting that the same subroutine be called when it completes, thenG exit the subroutine. this way, other ASTs get executed while that IO istL waiting, and when the IO completes, your subroutine executes. It would checkN that byte in the connection context block and find out that it is being called% as a result of its own IO completing.o  H The trick is to ensure that no AST take much time to complete execution.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:44:45 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: QIOs, ASTs, and Event Flags- Message-ID: <87heql6dtu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>.  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:H   > Lyndon Bartels wrote:D  F > > Each of these tasks is in it's own little procedure. The parameterF > > passed to the AST routine is the value off the connection channel.6 > > Otherwise all variables inside routines are local.  C > Suggestion: pass a pointer to a structure instead. That structure9@ > would contain not only the connection channel, but also the ioD > status blocks, status of the connection and any other data that is > specific to that connection.  F Yep, and remember, the AST hands you back the IOSB address for free :)> So hang all the stuff you need after the IOSB and you are set.   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:12:53 -0500i2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: See you in 20021 Message-ID: <J4oU7.249$sK3.4978@news.cpqcorp.net>1   Dear Newsgroup,b  G I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for the support in the lasta2 year, and to wish you health, happiness and peace.  
 Warm Regards,    Suet  H p.s. sorry if the formatting is double spaced it looks fine on my system  L ____________________________________________________________________________	 _________p  K I have a list of folks I know......all written in a book, and every now ands then......I go and take a look.u  H That is when I realize these names......they are a part, not of the book1 they're written in......but taken from the heart.r  J For each name stands for someone......who has crossed my path sometime,and? in that meeting they have become......the reason and the rhyme.d  H Although it sounds fantastic......for me to make this claim, I really am& composed......of each remembered name.  I Although you're not aware......of any special link, just knowing you, hasm. shaped my life......more than you could think.  L So please don't think my greeting......as just a mere routine, your name was not......forgotten in between.  F For when I send a greeting......that is addressed to you,it is because1 you're on the list......of folks I'm indebted to.b  L So whether I have known you......for many days or few, in some ways you have# a part......in shaping things I do.o  F I am but a total......of many folks I've met, you are a friend I would prefer......never to forget.    Thank you for being my friend !!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:33:55 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: See you in 2002> Message-ID: <TpoU7.20709$Sj1.11539720@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messaged+ news:J4oU7.249$sK3.4978@news.cpqcorp.net...- > Dear Newsgroup,l > I > I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for the support in the lasto4 > year, and to wish you health, happiness and peace. >h  1 Likewise, Sue, and may VMS live long and prosper!n  
 charlie matco|   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:58:24 -0600a+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>l Subject: RE: See you in 2002L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   Right back at you, Sue. ;)   Regards,   Chris<  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  'n  y   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: Sue Skonetski [mailto:susan.skonetski@compaq.com]"  4 > year, and to wish you health, happiness and peace.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:43:07 +0100h< From: Eckhard Wich <eckhard.wich@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> Subject: Re: set host problemo: Message-ID: <3C21F8FB.EAAA27D6@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>  J Micro VMS couldn't handle DECnet addresses of "area.node" from DCL commandC line. You have to calculate the decimal equivalent to this address:    <dec-addr> = 1024 * area + nodei   In your case this would be:v   1024 * 10 + 65 = 10305  I So a "$ SET HOST 10305" or a "$DIR 10305::" will work. To any node withintH the same DECnet area, a simple "$ SET HOST 65" or "$ DIR 65::" will work also.t   Eckhard Wich     pat saunders wrote:*  C > Hi, I am new to Decnet and we are using vms 5.5-2 on a micro-vax. H > My question is I can successfully SET HOST to another node by its node% > name but not by its decnet address.2 > I.E SET HOST MARTON worksn) > but SET HOST 10.65 produces the error : - > RMS-F-SYN, File Specification syntax error.s >o > Any help appreciated,  > Patm   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:22:09 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>2( Subject: Re: Strange quorum disk problem8 Message-ID: <lie32usp5nca83agfjm7nr6ke4mf84l0bi@4ax.com>  B On 14 Dec 2001 01:39:13 -0800, P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote:  8 >I'm having an "interesting" problem with a quorum disk. > A >The configuration is a Personal Workstation 600au hooked throughl> >an RA3000 to an XP1000. The OpenVMS 7.2-1 system (and quorum)C >disk is a virtual disk in the RA3000. Everything works fine except B >when a BACKUP is initiated, to tape/disk/NL:/etc on the XP1000 or, >the 600au, of the system (and quorum) disk.  D This is perfectly normal and can usually be ignored - except in thatF pathological cases where you might lose quorum for so long that a node	 cluexits.m  E It is not recommended that you make the system disk a quorum disk. Ino> fact it is best if the quorum disk can be used *only* for thatE purpose. If you're short of disks then no harm will come though other?@ than the warnings - providing you ave appropriate SYSGEN cluster parameters.d  A >Other operations such as ordinary system operation and file copy 1 >on the system disk do not reproduce the problem.e  D BACKUP if running from a tuned account can queue thousands of IOs to	 the disk.0   >1@ >The error reported by the XP1000 and/or 600au is as follows andA >happens anywhere from every half a minute to every three or fourr1 >minutes during the system disk BACKUP operation:r >m  >Doing the backup on the XP1000: >r9 >%%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  14-DEC-2001 17:24:45.91  %%%%%%%%%%% B >17:24:45.91 Node TEACH (csid 00010004) failed to read quorum disk >  >Doing the backup on the 600au:i >79 >%%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  14-DEC-2001 19:37:34.23  %%%%%%%%%%%wB >19:37:34.23 Node STAFF (csid 00010006) failed to read quorum disk > 
 >Followed by:  >h! >lost "connection" to quorum disk + >re-established "connection" to quorum disk. > B >This error does not result in the logging of a hard error for theD >device. To be certain there is not a hardware problem with the dualB >controller RA3000 I have stripped it down to one controller/host A >interface and swapped the both of them (this does not mean thereeD >might not be a problem with the drive shelves or cables between theA >controller and drive shelves. Host cables have been swapped with:D >new cables). Backing up another virtual disk in the RA3000 does notA >result in errors, so I don't expect there is a hardware problem.. >cA >After looking at QUORUM.LIS I understand  QDSKINTERVAL to be thenE >period of time between polls of the quorum disk, not the time period 5 >between a read is issued and a response is expected.  >  >SYSMAN> do mc sysgen show qdskn2 >%SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node TEACHH >QDSKVOTES                       1          1         0        127 VotesJ >QDSKINTERVAL                    3          3         1      32767 Seconds2 >%SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node STAFFH >QDSKVOTES                       1          1         0        127 VotesJ >QDSKINTERVAL                    3          3         1      32767 Seconds >sF >I changed QDSKINTERVAL on one machine to 10 for testing, however this >did not make any difference.a >7
 >Many thanks!e   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Dec 2001 00:14:16 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: Strange quorum disk problem- Message-ID: <87pu596f8n.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   E See the cluster manual where they talk about shared SCSI and the joys/E of 'industry standard'! The quorum disk is unable to get the SCSI buseE to respond to the IO. So it times out in the drive, or in the driver,eA or in SCS in the case of the quorum disk. Such a wonderful robustrD design, not. As Glen Everhart calls it, "System Can't See Interface"  C If it is only when you are testing stuff with backup, ignore it. Or1= re-config the mess so the drive is a higher LUN than the hostjB controllers. EG, make the drive LUN7, and the controllers 6 and 5.  B There was a good reason for Vax SCSI controllers defaulting to LUN 6. But it was 'non-standard' :(.  0 God loves idiots, that's why he invented Compaq.     -- I< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.g@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:39:37 +0100 (MET)p9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>]Y Subject: SUBMIT/AFTER/HOLD (was: RE: DCL day of the minute: Inconsistency indate handlinga; Message-ID: <01KC3IXAS4LI9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   F > I'm not sure what you mean by /AFTER and /HOLD not working together.& > What version of VMS are you running? > C > Anyway, see the example below on how to use F$GETQUI to check theeC > "after time" without running SET ENTRY/NOHOLD and thereby risking 9 > starting the job prematurely. (Example run on VMS V6.1)a  
 Mea culpa!  @ OK, with /AFTER one should use /NOHOLD instead of /RELEASE.  OK.  I What annoys me is that /HOLD turns of the display of the time.  It would  I be nice to have something like "holding" to indicate the action of /HOLD o> and "queued for" or whatever to indicate the action of /AFTER.  ' OK, add F$GETQUI to my command file....i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:57:12 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoftt, Message-ID: <3C2199D6.B8BD546E@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote:cM > Having even just one stairwell at each of the four corners of each building06 > would have greatly reduced the number of casualties.  I Tennants pay big money to get the corner office. And window space is at aLK premium. Furthermore, stairwells in the core are the most protected. Anmd ISM believe that the stairwells were at the ends of the elevators. One australian G mentioned on TV that he was lucky that he took one particular stairwellhT because it was the one on the opposite side of the crash and it was still navigable.  J Being unconventional, I would simply have deployable ropes that people canN slide down on a side of the building that is still more or less intact. In theM case of WTC, there was one side of the tower that was more or less intact andiH folks could have just used ropes to come down perhaps 20 floors and then- re-enter through a window and go down stairs.   N (Or perhaps have the ropes go all the way to the ground. One would need a good? pair of gloves to control descent without burning one's hands.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:08:39 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofte, Message-ID: <3C219C84.918704E0@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:I > Both incorrect. Why do you think all four flights were going nonstop too > the west coast?   J New York or Bostoin to LAX on a 767 is not a very long flight. A 767-300ERL does Honolulu-Sydney, more than twice the distance between BOS-LAX. And whenF the plane only has about 60 people on board instead of the 150-200 paxD capacity, then it needs a whole lot less fuel to get to destination.  M Note that this is still plenty of fuel to cause a very bad fire. But it wouldo< be a lot less fuel than a 707 leaving JFK to go to Tel Aviv.  N I think that the 707 "test" was purely on the mechanical aspects of the towersK which would lose some of their about 60 support pillars on each side of theI= tower. I really doubt that they factored in the fire aspect. o  N Factoring in fire would require some computer to calculate how holg a fire canK burn on a specific floor before the weight above forces a collapse. (i.e. aAF fire on the 100th floor could burn longer than one on the 60th floor).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:46:38 -0500a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsoft , Message-ID: <3C21A568.F5511A48@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:I > > these improvements, which allowed increased fuel capacity from 15,000o: > > gallons to more than 23,000 gallons, the 707 had trulyJ > > intercontinental range of over 4,000 miles in a 141-seat (mixed class) > > seating configuration. > K > If I remember the article I read yesterday correctly, one of the 767s had K > loaded 36,000 gallons at takeoff and was calculated to have impacted with1& > about 31,000 gallons still on board.  5 http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-200/product.html,  G The 767-200's fuel capacity is at 23,980 US gallons (about 90k litres).r' It has a range of 6,600 nm (12,000km).    L BOS-LAX is 2269nm.  Roughly one third of the 767-200's range. (note that theL 767-300ER has much longer range, but I think that the airlines generally use  their -200s on domestic routes).  M Passenger capacity is about 180 pax. With only about 60, you are one third of  your capacity.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:51:10 +0000h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>.5 Subject: Re: Suspect Claims Al Qaeda Hacked Microsofte8 Message-ID: <3ig32u8ffvl2ltmo5ck2o9adiqj1mf67e6@4ax.com>  . On 19 Dec 2001 17:24:24 +0100, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  ( >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >rG >> "Boeing quickly developed the larger 707-320 Intercontinental serieseG >> with a longer fuselage, bigger wing and higher-powered engines. WithsH >> these improvements, which allowed increased fuel capacity from 15,0009 >> gallons to more than 23,000 gallons, the 707 had trulyeI >> intercontinental range of over 4,000 miles in a 141-seat (mixed class)r >> seating configuration.n >nJ >If I remember the article I read yesterday correctly, one of the 767s hadJ >loaded 36,000 gallons at takeoff and was calculated to have impacted with% >about 31,000 gallons still on board.a >eA Given that the Boeing web site lists its maximum fuel capacity asb4 24,000 gallons this appears to be complete nonsense.       -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:50:59 -0800( From: reslfj@ofir.dk (Lars Funck Jensen)' Subject: The cost of alignment traps???t= Message-ID: <49807d45.0112200650.119d6757@posting.google.com>e  C All Alpha information says that alignment traps are very expensive,aD but there are no information on just how expensive it is in terms of( number of instructions/cycles pr. trap ?  1 I have tried to enable alignment trap reporting ( F sys$perm_report_align_fault() ) and some programs logs a lot of traps.  E Even Compaq standard utility programs like linker, tpu , macro/migra.n5 generates "%SYSTEM-I-ALIGN, data alignment trap....".e  A Is the relative cost the same on EV4, EV5, EV56 or EV6 ? ( EV7??)n  E Will compiling with EV56 optimisation (byte instructions) remove some  of the traps ?  8 Are the number of allignment traps accumulated in VMS?        Regardst Lars Funck Jenseno   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:30:38 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>tX Subject: Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS)8 Message-ID: <0li32u81r8f2v5tcpiaaceafvm6u9maj0u@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:15:54 -0500, Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>n wrote:  < >In article <01KC23W6CH0I9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>,< > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote: >lD >> > Although someone still managed to sneak in TOPS-20's DEFINE andI >> > TOPS-10's ASSIGN for logical names. For some reason VMS DCL supportsr5 >> > both the TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 argument ordering.   >> a >> So THAT'S the reason! >o% >Nah, ASSIGN/DEASSIGN is from RSX-11.b  C TOPS-10 and Tenex (TOPS-20s original name) predated RSX as far as I  recall.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:04:03 -0500a' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> X Subject: Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS)< Message-ID: <howard-F5F4D3.08040320122001@enews.newsguy.com>  8 In article <0li32u81r8f2v5tcpiaaceafvm6u9maj0u@4ax.com>,'  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:l  E > TOPS-10 and Tenex (TOPS-20s original name) predated RSX as far as Is	 > recall.a  & I may sit corrected.  How about RT-11? -- - Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"- Xerox is the anti-Microsoft.  And visa-versa.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:31:57 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>uX Subject: Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamonson VMS)8 Message-ID: <9gt32ugefgc7gr1dvbb7qmv900b32ljbuq@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:04:03 -0500, Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>_ wrote:  9 >In article <0li32u81r8f2v5tcpiaaceafvm6u9maj0u@4ax.com>,I( > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: >oF >> TOPS-10 and Tenex (TOPS-20s original name) predated RSX as far as I
 >> recall. >y' >I may sit corrected.  How about RT-11?t  F Not sure.  Somewhere at home I have a DEC history timeline listing all5 these things. Must be a web version somewhere surely?t -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:47:16 +0000.% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: UK VMS help neededr8 Message-ID: <1bg32u8fj4c01av5pdagabnb3jgphfb7ft@4ax.com>  A On 18 Dec 2001 05:51:49 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  wrote:     >eJ >I emailed this poor fellow, who by chance is running on the same platformK >we are (synergy dibol on alphaserver 800/1200 vms) ... told him to come toeM >his senses, stay on vms as it will be around for years, wait and see how theoL >itanium port goes, and get software support thru compaq ... hardware shouldJ >be done internally as it is pretty easy to do ... do not give up security- >and reliability unless you are forced to ...e  ? I've also contacted Dave Foddy, local Compaq VMS ambassador who-A assures me he will contact the guy. Btw, my local Compaq "accountrF manager" had never heard of a "VMS ambassador" until I explained it to him. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:02:30 +0000s( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: UK VMS help neededp) Message-ID: <3C21D356.CEAA378E@127.0.0.1>w   Alan Greig wrote:t > A > I've also contacted Dave Foddy, local Compaq VMS ambassador wholC > assures me he will contact the guy. Btw, my local Compaq "accountaH > manager" had never heard of a "VMS ambassador" until I explained it to > him.   Alan,1  D I come across more and more instances in the UK where Compaq are nonG existent at marketing themselves or VMS. No attempts received to spread@F the good word, so those involved [often buried away in little pockets]G have a dissillusioned view of the operating system and the service theyb receive.  A Great pity. I try, but I shouldn't be doing their [Compaq's] job.    --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coma   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:40:58 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)- Subject: Re: UK VMS help needed3' Message-ID: <9vt4aq$723$1@joe.rice.edu>i  ) Nic Clews (sendspamhere@127.0.0.1) wrote:s : Alan,r :eF : I come across more and more instances in the UK where Compaq are non+ : existent at marketing themselves or VMS. . :eC There have been comments in the comp.sys.hp.mpe newsgroup about HP t$ salespersons being almost invisible.  E So if the merger happens, no one will be surprised about the Romulan 56 "cloaking device" the combined sales staff will carry.  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 02:44:43 -0800& From: dyadav7@yahoo.com (Deepak Yadav)) Subject: Unable to open file of this typec= Message-ID: <13e80e3d.0112200244.4f172070@posting.google.com>e   Hi b<     i am unable to open file with both fopen and sys$connect  calls. i have tried many things.! any pointer will be apppreciated.-$ i am attaching dir/full file output.   Thanks A lot Deepak YadavI -------------------------------------------------------------------------24 TEST2.ADR;4                   File ID:  (27743,11,0)3 Size:            3/12         Owner:    [IPN,PATCH]l! Created:  17-DEC-2001 13:07:05.24a% Revised:  19-DEC-2001 14:23:41.09 (2), Expires:   <None specified>  Backup:    <No backup recorded>"? File organization:  Relative, maximum record number: 2147483647i= File attributes:    Allocation: 12, Extend: 0, Bucket size: 1n<                     Global buffer count: 0, No version limit1 Record format:      Fixed length 100 byte recordsp Record attributes:  None RMS attributes:     None Journaling enabled: None= File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:m Access Cntrl List:  None+ -------------------------------------------e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:01:31 +0100o, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>- Subject: Re: Unable to open file of this typec& Message-ID: <3C22358B.B8E95CD9@gmx.ch>   Deepak Yadav wrote:h >  > Hi> >     i am unable to open file with both fopen and sys$connect! > calls. i have tried many thingse   fopen? what is this?& sys$connect? to open a file? Not sure.) Which programming language are you using?o   Can you TYPE it?, Can you "$ open/read ch TEST2.ADR" from DCL?* What error message does RMS send you back?   More info svp.   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:28:17 -0500 4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>E Subject: Updating relative files from C - was Re: dump and fopen helpr4 Message-ID: <3C222DC1.1040304@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Deepak Yadav wrote:d   > Hi8 >     when i do a dump it shows 3 virtual blocks of 512.= > the first and third blocks have all 00 and second block has:! > first 100 byte set and rest 00.3 >d4 > when i try to read the file i am able to read onlyN > one block of 100 bytes , which matched second virtual block first 100 bytes.    H The file organization is "relative" according to your description below.  D The C I/O routines do not really know how to handle a relative file.I You will want to use the RMS routines directly.  These are documented in r8 the OpenVMS Record Management Services Reference Manual.  Q You will need to have an understanding of what a "relative" file organization is.e    = This is documented in the Guide to OpenVMS File Applications.:  K This documentation in on line from a link at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/     I > i want to read the file as dump does it. as i need to update the seconda6 > virtual block (first few bytes to some value) only.     @ It is dangerous to do raw reads and writes to that sort of file H organization using C i/o routines.  Unless you really know what you are 1 doing, you can easily corrupt the file structure.i  < C I/O really understand "sequential" file organization only.   <snip>> > is this matches the dir/full desciption of file given below. > ? > ( dir/full file gives maximum record size 100. rest filed are  > Size:          3/12   A > File organization:  Relative, maximum record number: 2147483647T? > File attributes:    Allocation: 12, Extend: 0, Bucket size: 1s> >                     Global buffer count: 0, No version limit3 > Record format:      Fixed length 100 byte recordsn > Record attributes:  None > RMS attributes:     None > )a  H > Please tell what other/wrong arguements i have given due to which i am% > not able to read file as dump does.l    F DUMP is ignoring the file structure.  Try DUMP/RECORD for a different  view of the file.o    aF > If there is some other way/utility to update the content of file i.e/ > to update nth byte of the file of above type.i    G What package was used to create the file?  It should have some idea on o how to update it.n   -Johnb   malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq Personal Opinion Only'   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:51:19 +0000g( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: VAX: Block vs. Megabytest) Message-ID: <3C21D0B7.4015453A@127.0.0.1>o   Carl Perkins wrote:h >   E > .. for binary megabytes. For decimal megabytes (as used by the diskaJ > drive manufacturers to give the capacity of the drive) it is, of course,' > 1953.125 blocks per decimal megabyte.  > 7 > binary megabyte  = 1048576 bytes (1024*1024, or 2^20) 7 > decimal megabyte = 1000000 bytes (1000*1000, or 10^6)   : Decimal megabytes - used for marketing and sales purposes.  0 Binary megabytes - used when it actually counts. (Who, me, cynical?)a --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:40:16 -0800r+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>:@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)U Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112192142160.2546-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>A  # On 19 Dec 2001, Carl Perkins wrote:  > "TOPS was great    Yes, TOPS-20 was great.w   > so when they > killed it I moved to UnixI  G As did the entire Internet PDP-10 community, every major university and F research organization in the US.  Many of the commercial users went to IBM.  # > because I was mad at them and VMS/ > stinks anyway"  ? No.  We moved because we had to move.  UNIX was the only viable  alternative.  H There was nothing -- and I do mean nothing -- of attractive value in VMSG in 1983.  It would have taken years of work to get VMS up to speed, and.I that would have been in the face of VMS developers who proudly proclaimed-E that they would not allow any such thing.  Nor was there any Internetp support in VMS at that time.  C It took years to get UNIX up to speed, but the UNIX developers were8E willing to listen, and on occasion did something we asked them to do.eE UNIX already had a proven Internet track record, and in fact had beengG selected as DoD's standard Internet OS (which at that time meant a very  great deal).  I There were even early UNIX desktops back then, the vanguard of the attacka of the killer micros.A  J Finally, UNIX did not have the disadvantage that killed TOPS-20.  UNIX was4 not under the control of a proven unreliable vendor.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcoF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:32:44 GMTlL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <00A06C6D.EC6A2E6E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  j In article <3C216F97.F03ACE2F@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:o >> aN >> And Windows must be technically superior because it has whipped Unix's ass? >-8 >When did this miracle (or should I say disaster) occur?  K In number of licenses sold or computers deployed, it seems very likely thateJ there are orders of magnitude more Windows systems (counting all variants)* than Unix systems (counting all variants).  M Of course this doesn't make it technically superior; the idea was to show theoL flaw in Mark Crispin's logic, where he explained that the market had proved * that Unix was technically superior to VMS.   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================a0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056rM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:58:15 -0800I+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)U Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112192359440.2816-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>r  ? On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: M > In number of licenses sold or computers deployed, it seems very likely that L > there are orders of magnitude more Windows systems (counting all variants), > than Unix systems (counting all variants).  H Non-sequitor.  The primary market for Windows is on the desktop, whereasG the primary market for UNIX is in servers.  Each have made inroads into07 the other market, but the dichotomy continues to exist.t  I The only thing that the number of Windows systems vs. UNIX systems provessD is that the desktop market has more individual units than the server market.  Well duh.  O > Of course this doesn't make it technically superior; the idea was to show thevM > flaw in Mark Crispin's logic, where he explained that the market had provedo, > that Unix was technically superior to VMS.   Another non-sequitor from you.  G VMS and UNIX are in the same market.  People had a choice.  They choose < UNIX, and did so even when VMS was bundled with the machine.  F There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior toD VMS.  Portability.  Shell vs. DCL.  Better process management.  MuchG better Internet support.  Piping.  The vast library of UNIX tools.  Thep list goes on and on.  G I was an employee at Stanford when Stanford got one of the first VAXen.eI It came with VMS, but it was converted to UNIX as soon as they got a tapesG from Berkeley.  I still have an account on that system, although it hase different hardware.,  G Stanford's CS department is one of the top in the world.  They've never F allowed market considerations to dictate what hardware or OS they willJ run.  Historically, they have run some strange systems in their pursuit ofI technical excellence.  Why did they choose UNIX?  Stanford EE and KSL arehF also among the top in the world.  They too choose technical excellenceC over market considerations.  They're also UNIX shops.  The Stanford,F student computing facility was a DEC-20 clust, and later became a UNIX& cluster.  Why didn't they go with VMS?  G Just how many VMS systems are there at Stanford?  Do you need more thanaH one hand to count them?  How many VMS users?  How many thousands of UNIX4 systems are there at Stanford?  How many UNIX users?  D If you contend that Stanford picked a technically inferior operatingI system, I know numerous current and former employees at Stanford who will5< say that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc8F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:53:32 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>f@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <oe932usbfn868oi7s0an4jv6i25qaa3q01@4ax.com>  0 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:17:31 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:     I >The less said about the VMS C compiler (and the C library!), the better.aF >It was worse than the early versions of the Microsoft C compiler, and >that's saying a lot.g  E DEC's early C support on VMS with VAX C and associated RTLs was close @ to a joke. Even most VMS fanatics will agree with that. Over theA years, and especially with the addition of DEC C, things improveda	 markedly.    >-- Mark --3 >0  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:44:41 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <l7b32u86q4kt51radn373v15l55653v0bl@4ax.com>  0 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:33:59 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:s  B WIth the proviso that I haven't written anything non trivial underD TOPS-20 for 15 years or so and that I don't do much programming work1 on anything these days, I'll take a stab at this.!   > C >Describe the VMS implementation of: COMND, recognition/completion,   D Well C-Kermit manages to implement a large chunk of COMND (including; filename recognition and completion) under VMS. There is no B architectural problem in supporting COMND under VMS. I fully agree> there should have been a DEC supported version. An unsupportedF DCLCOMP:LETE.MAR has circulated for years. VMS's CLD (command languageB definition) files can be used by a COMND implementation to provide8 lists of options on input of "?" and command completion.  G >GTJFN/GNJFN/JFNS, TTLNK, ? (or /? if you want to be Microsoftish), andr$ >PMAP (be sure to detail all forms).  D Check out lib$file* and lib$find_file, lib$file_fid_to_name.etc. andD associated underlying services for approx equivalents to gtjfn,gnjfn? and jfns. No direct TTLNK call but apps which hook into the ttymE drivers and provide that functionality are available. As to PMAP withED "detail all forms" I think I'd want to spend some time with both theF TOPS-20 Monitor calls manual and VMS docs before taking a stab at thatF one. Too many options. You can certainly map a file section to disk in VMS though.a   >vK >Explain DCL; a command language so ridiculous that it makes UNIX look like0@ >a marvel of good design by comparison.  Why, for example, is anH >infrequently used function such as the one to attach to another processJ >honored with a top-level verb command, whereas the commonly used functionJ >to change the working directory a subverb of SET (and why such an obscure5 >one as that -- doesn't VMS have any other defaults)?G   $ CD :== SET DEFAULT  D is not particularly hard to do. But yes there are/were multiple more9 complete CD implementation in DCL kicking around for VMS.b   >aJ >Describe the VMS commands to analyze why a program which just crashed didB >so, and how the crashed process can be restarted with the problemJ >remedied.  Oh, and no running it under a debugger beforehand; it's got to >be completely post-mortem.e   DEBUG/RESUME (the default)  E Notice in the example below the program was specifically run /NODEBUGdE and then later the debugger started as you specified. You do not haveuF to link/debug either unless you want high level language (source code)	 stepping.d   From HELP DEBUGS  %   2.$ FORTRAN/DEBUG/NOOPTIMIZE WIDGETa          $ LINK/DEBUG WIDGET          $ RUN/NODEBUG WIDGETr              NAME:            NAME:            NAME:          ^Y           $ DEBUG/RESUME-  5                       [ Debugger Banner and Version ]i  F            %DEBUG-I-INITIAL, language is FORTRAN, module set to WIDGET            DBG>E  >          The FORTRAN and LINK commands both specify the /DEBUG	 qualifieryE          to compile the program WIDGET.FOR with debugger symbol tabley     Press RETURN to continue ...  C          information. The RUN command begins execution of the imageoF          WIDGET.EXE, which loops uncontrollably. Ctrl/Y interrupts theC          program, and the DEBUG/RESUME command gives control to thep          debugger.       >-- Mark --s >h  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.t   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:12:26 +0000'% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>C@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <sld32uomrh9be1j6bfhdkso8ngbtfbqfok@4ax.com>  F On 19 Dec 2001 10:44:55 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:   >2E >   many high level languages.  Forks instead of processes.  A loadern  C Other than the name I'm not sure what you are getting at  by "forksa instead of processes"a  G >   that really was:  you loaded all your objects into memory, then youhG >   could run them, or you could dump them back out to an executable in   B Unless my memory has really failed LINK could write the executableB directly (must get more time with the emulators) to disk just likeA under VMS. What VMS can't do is load an object file directly into-* memory which TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 could do.  D >   a file.  A lot of security holes.  The inability to separate theG >   concepts of an authorized user and a disk directory.  No predefined   C The only link between authorized user and disk directory was on theaC PS: public structure with non files-only directories. If you wanted F the directory need not even be writable or at a minimum you would justE store LOGIN.CMD and Mail files there. Any site could use the templateEB ACJ - Access Control Job facility to add any kind of authorization@ granting or denial to resources they wished - or even completely design their own from scratch.  D >   RMS (eventually COBOL and FORTRAN groups realized they were both; >   doing record management and came up with a common RMS).2 >4E >   If you were used to thinking this way you might not want to learn 9 >   anything new or different from what you'd been doing.t >eF >   The guys who designed VMS were doing something new and differenet,F >   virtual memory and 4 modes, but were willing to base the OS design  F TOPS-20 didn't have virtual memory? That's a new one on me!! You'll beB telling me next TOPS-20 didn't have copy-on-write page protection.  ( >   on a tried and proven concept (RSX).  E The TOPS-20 front end (handling terminal I/O mainly) ran RSX-20 on anl 11/40 (44?)e   >h   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:44:10 -0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF187@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J The old filename limit was 9.3 (not 8.3) and <> has been a valid delimiter+ in VMS directory specs since the beginning.v   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKuA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:42:16 GMTw From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsfjb$1ng$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   B In article <Cd5U7.324547$8q.28878786@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,.    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: >w) >"Who, me?" <who@me.com> wrote in message . >news:Xns917C6BE8E5675whomecom@199.125.85.9... >o >....o >uA >> DEC's decision was consistant with their corporate culture andoI >> the corporate culture of similar companies like IBM.  Networking was aTI >> profit center, and they were going to do everything they could to not M killI >> the goose laying the golden eggs.  OSI was perfect for this: you couldzJ >> claim to have a standards-compliant protocol, yet not interoperate with >> competitor's equipment! >l/ >Depends on how you define 'corporate culture'   >(and whether what I would calls0 >it had changed by then).  The culture up until  >the early '80s was definitelyK >*not* anti-interoperation - in fact, interoperation was the cornerstone ofsJ >DEC's networking business, since most people interested in networking had: >some IBM equipment they wanted to include (IIRC this was  >often how DEC got aC >foot in the door and then later some its own systems).  Nor was itc2 >characteristic of the OS portions of the company  >(how could it be?  they had) >to interoperate with each other anyway).e <snip>  A You recall correctly.  One of the reasons people bought DEC stuff4< was _because_ it could talk to IBM and handle job throughput? fast.  One of our (TOPS-10 SMP) sites would ship the batch jobsr= for their IBM equipment over to the -10, process it, and shipn= it back to the submitter making it look as if the whole thing < was done on the IBM (scientists were not prone to retraining; and it was easier to just fake it).  That -10 system had a P; JOBMAX of 500 and a LOGIN queue of IIRC 100.  And the queuer; was always full.  I even had the privilege of meeting that u system.    /BAH       /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:54:08 GMTu From: jmfbahciv@aol.como@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsg9j$1ng$6@bob.news.rcn.net>-  3 In article <4g5FfWvUUIHD@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 1    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:XI >In article <3C1FA846.56662CF6@iee.org>, "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> P writes:o >>  . >> I missed out on TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (just!)* >> but given the plethora of emulators now- >> available, it looks like I'll get a seconds. >> chance. Which features is it that VMS lacks0 >> but TOPS-10 and/or TOPS-20 has? I don't doubt. >> that there are some or many, it's just that* >> I have no idea what they are. Or are we1 >> talking mainly features that were missing backi >> then but are around now?  >uI >   An older, 2 mode, OS design that was popular at about the time it andcH >   UNIX were invented.  Really painfull API to the OS, unreachable fromE >   many high level languages.  Forks instead of processes.  A loadernG >   that really was:  you loaded all your objects into memory, then you G >   could run them, or you could dump them back out to an executable inhD >   a file.  A lot of security holes.  The inability to separate theG >   concepts of an authorized user and a disk directory.  No predefinedUD >   RMS (eventually COBOL and FORTRAN groups realized they were both; >   doing record management and came up with a common RMS).m >iE >   If you were used to thinking this way you might not want to learns9 >   anything new or different from what you'd been doing.  > F >   The guys who designed VMS were doing something new and differenet,F >   virtual memory and 4 modes, but were willing to base the OS design( >   on a tried and proven concept (RSX).  ? Which wasn't timesharing.  Do not confuse a timesharing concept # with a task-based concept in an OS.i   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:46:01 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.coms@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsfqc$1ng$4@bob.news.rcn.net>i  3 In article <bPdy0bnguswq@eisner.encompasserve.org>,S1    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: ( > On 18 Dec 2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:B >> > It was a stated goal by Hutsvedt(sp?) to ensure that anything3 >> > done on the PDP-10 would never be done in VMS.2I >> If this is true - why did the company let him, and the VMS group, get r away >> with this attitude? >dH >   Having programmed on TOPS-20 for years and finding it's architectureF >   and that of the PDP-10 to be a mjor PITA, I'm glad they succeeded. >M0 >   I was so happy when I moved to VMS off TOPS. >o; Interesting.  I had problems wrapping my neurons around the D byte concepts ala VAX.  Can you describe why you didn't like the -109 architecture?  Was the programming interface or the basicd instruction set?  F From what you said (VMS), may I assume that you preferred higher level> language programming rather than machine language programming?   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.W   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:52:11 GMTl From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsg5u$1ng$5@bob.news.rcn.net>)  H In article <y4lmfz2mft.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,K    Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:g >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > J >> >If this is true - why did the company let him, and the VMS group, get  away >> >with this attitude?=G >> Because it meshed with Gordon Bell's and Dave Cutler's attitudes andI@ >> all of those people had no contact with people from Marlboro. >oH >That's not really an explanation. Why would any rational person exhibitH >such behaviour, as it is basically self-damaging? (NIH always is, IMO.)  & We never could understand it either.    E >And it's the major job of the upper level of management to stop such: >kinds of behaviour.  5 That's why I talked about the meshing of attitudes.  s   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.g   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 09:05:24 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.comc@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <9vsgun$1ng$10@bob.news.rcn.net>  3 In article <IXZeTvG15Q3h@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e/    young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:U >In article K <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112191015540.1815-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,  - Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:I# >> On 19 Dec 2001, Rob Young wrote:aC >>> 	I saw that: "improve Unix's lead" and almost bit on the troll. A >>> 	Giving him the benefit of the doubt on re-read I interpretedp> >>> 	it as application availability lead, not technology lead. >>  J >> Not a troll at all.  UNIX was then, and remains today, technologically  faro >> superior to VMS.o >> v > < >	No it isn't.  Trot out a few superior features... if thereD >	are so many.  One qualifier.... current feature set verus current , >	feature set.  Not history nor futures, ok? >h4 >> And the market proved it.  UNIX whipped VMS' ass. > > >	It proved it was a better solution for most folks.  Now that? >	the shoe is on another foot (Windows versus Unix) we will see A >	how much ground Windows gains at Unix' expense.  After all, W2Kh* >	is technologically far superior to Unix.  J It (W2K) didn't survive the den mother test..and it only took me 5 minutes. to crash the damn thing.  I was not impressed.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:56:57 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsges$1ng$7@bob.news.rcn.net>a  C In article <5D6U7.225816$tf5.15413255@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,t.    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: >iK >"Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote n inK >message news:y4adwf2l2n.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...e* >> Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >>D >> > Although someone still managed to sneak in TOPS-20's DEFINE andI >> > TOPS-10's ASSIGN for logical names. For some reason VMS DCL supportswJ >> > both the TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 argument ordering. VMS also still allowsG >> > the TOPS-20 syntax of device:<directory>file.ext.v (where v is therG >> > version number) as well as its native device:[directory]file.ext;vd >>F >> Both of these deviations are part of the RSX legacy, IMO, not TOPS. >oC >I'm ashamed to admit that I just can't recall the details with anyeH >certainty.  I do seem to remember that angle-bracketed directories may  have3 >been a DEC standard (including both RSX and TOPS) o  = Not TOPS.  Angle brackets designated file protection.  Square2  brackets designated directories.   > ..until DCL came along andH >decided to move to syntax that didn't require use of the shift key, butK >don't remember dot-delimited version numbers on RSX at all (until we wrote1* >RMS to parse them as an optional syntax).   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.c   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:58:28 GMTy From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsghm$1ng$8@bob.news.rcn.net>s  5 In article <3C20DF93.D97B0D1A@bartek.dontspamme.net>,t6    Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote: >> kE >> VMS sucked from its inception, starting with its obnoxious commanddJ >> language which seemed carefully designed to do the wrong thing whenever >> possible. >-+ >I think I got the gist of this thread now:4 >  >1) Some people hate VMS >2) Some people like VMS, >3) Some people don't know anything about it >o >aak >)D >ps: When are people going to realize that they can't change someone >else's viewpoint?  < You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything done when they used VMS.e   /BAH   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 09:00:21 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.como@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsgl8$1ng$9@bob.news.rcn.net>n  8 In article <oe932usbfn868oi7s0an4jv6i25qaa3q01@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:c1 >On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:17:31 -0800, Mark Crispinr  ><mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: >N >nJ >>The less said about the VMS C compiler (and the C library!), the better.G >>It was worse than the early versions of the Microsoft C compiler, and  >>that's saying a lot. > F >DEC's early C support on VMS with VAX C and associated RTLs was closeA >to a joke. Even most VMS fanatics will agree with that. Over theoB >years, and especially with the addition of DEC C, things improved
 >markedly.> That's because, along with the One Operating System, there was= also this edict about the One Implementation Language, namely  <spit>BLISS.   /BAH   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:09:53 -0000v8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF188@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J Windows can use symbolic names all-round and the locations of files can beI changed. Just has vms has to have [SYSn.SYSEXE] to get started so WindowsoI has to have some files in standard locations for booting. Once the system F has started the locations can be changed as most packages use symbolic names.  > 		>First, %systemroot%. The problem caused by conflicting file< 		>version in here is so common that it's got it's own name,= 		>"DLL HELL", and increasingly complex mechanisms to keep itf 		>under control.=  H The same problem exists in VMS. If there are multiple versions of system. files only one normally gets used system wide.    = 		>Second, the registry. This is generally the primary sourceh; 		>of an application's configuration, and there is a singlep> 		>set of names hardcoded in the application itself that drive; 		>it. You can't simply go ahead and tell an application top; 		>use "HKLM\...\Software\Fredsoft\Fredserver 2" instead ofi7 		>"...\Fredserver" if you need to run two instances ofE
 Fredserver 		>on the same machine.r  L Not true. If the application is written to support Fredserver 1,2,3,4,... itE will work. The same applies in any system: if you want to run mutiple 3 servers they cannot really use the same work files.U    = 		>Third, "Program Files\<program name>". This one's actually 6 		>configurable. Unfortunately, it's configured in the	 registry.-  I If you think of the registry as the equivalent of the logical name table,UA only much more flexible and extentable, you'll have few problems.D  L Most of problems I've encountered in Windows have arisen because packages doH not use the registry in consistent ways. Every program author appears toC have s personal registry scheme and the often forget what their ownoJ conventions are! Of course registry changes between OS versions don't helpG either but VMS too makes changes between OS versions which cause systemc software problems.  ? A lot of people take the view that problems on "other" OS's are.L insurmountable. However, in reality, one OS is really very much like anotherK when it comes to problem solving and the problems themselves are often of a * similar nature between one OS and another.     John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:14:56 -0400s+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)1 Message-ID: <3C2181E0.3A52501F@trailing-edge.com>    a.carlini wrote: >  > Paul Repacholi wrote:u > >dI > > No, they came in late 3.x or V4 time. People asked for CMND and Exec.lF > > They got 39+39 char file names, and the <> directory delimiters... > 4 > Assuming I parsed that correctly, I beg to differ.+ > The VAX/VMS Command Language User's Guideo* > for VAX/VMS V02 (as it quaintly puts it)* > allows both <> and .v (as well as [] and > ;v). > * > Filenames longer than 8.3 (?) cropped up > in V4.0 IIRC.e  8 9.3.  VMSINSTAL.COM has been around for a long time :-).  > Besides, RSX always had 9.3 (3+1 words of RAD50 and all that.)   Tim.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 09:14:55 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <9vshgh$1ng$12@bob.news.rcn.net>  8 In article <00A06C6D.EC6A2E6E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,J    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")  wrote:E >In article <3C216F97.F03ACE2F@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat e& <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:, >>Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >>> K >>> And Windows must be technically superior because it has whipped Unix's ' ass? >>9 >>When did this miracle (or should I say disaster) occur?g >wH >In number of licenses sold or computers deployed, it seems very likely  thatK >there are orders of magnitude more Windows systems (counting all variants)l+ >than Unix systems (counting all variants).y >-K >Of course this doesn't make it technically superior; the idea was to show S therF >flaw in Mark Crispin's logic, where he explained that the market had  proved -+ >that Unix was technically superior to VMS.a  A I think this is one of the saddest things of the computing world.l> Gates and company could have done so much good if they had any3 notion about quality, consistency and reliability. D   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:18:48 -0000t8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF189@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   >>K >> Yes, I quite agree. But be honest: At the time DEC bet on OSI, would you-, >> have bet that part of the company on TCP? >>   >Everybody else did.  :-)R  G Wrong. The whole World (approx) apart from the USA was pushing OSI. The$G sheer market force from the US side forced TCP/IP on to the rest of thepD World and now we're all paying dearly for it in the constant flow ofG "exploits" and "counter-exploits". The USA has to carry the can for them( insecurity of international networks ...   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK>A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 09:11:27 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <9vsha2$1ng$11@bob.news.rcn.net>  ' In article <3C20F552.1C2423F1@iee.org>,h)    "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote:y >Alan Greig wrote: >> nB >> Although someone still managed to sneak in TOPS-20's DEFINE andG >> TOPS-10's ASSIGN for logical names. For some reason VMS DCL supportssH >> both the TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 argument ordering. VMS also still allowsE >> the TOPS-20 syntax of device:<directory>file.ext.v (where v is thedE >> version number) as well as its native device:[directory]file.ext;v  >t# >I'll go with the crowd on this - I # >always thought they came from RSX.a >wG >> Also someone got in the undocumented SET WATCH FILE command into VMSsH >> which both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 had. It seems some effort was made andG >> I am not sure how things like this got in while other more importantt> >> things did not. Or maybe the answer is actually in the last >> sentence... >o% >Boy am I glad I took your advice and " >avoided starting a flame war! :-) >n& >If I've kept track so far the missing* >features amount to TOPS(-20??) was either( >five times faster and/or supported five >times as many users.h  4 NOpe.  This was TOPS-10 who could do this.  The -20 / couldn't compete (due to not implementing SMP).u     > It also may (or may not)& >have been able to talk to an HSC50 a - >few months before VAX/VMS did (and certainlym' >long before I got near such a beast!).g  9 I think that was because we had a lot of practice getting$6 stuff field tested and shipped.  By that time, most of7 the processes involved had been worked out so that mosto6 of the roadblocks set up in the Project Notebook could8 be circumvented, handled or ignored.  Training people to3 consider the Notebook an ideal was very hard to do.g  ' >It may (or may not) have had the "readl( >and write the files from any of umpteen* >clustered systems" that VMS has - but I'm# >a trifle nervous about asking for I >clarification ...   <grin>  Why be nervous?t   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 09:18:27 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <9vshn6$1ng$13@bob.news.rcn.net>  ' In article <3C2132F6.80B9FF2C@ev1.net>,g-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >>  K >> In article <y4n10go9hl.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,uH >>    Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  wrote:1 >> >Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:  >> >E >> >> > It was a stated goal by Hutsvedt(sp?) to ensure that anything 6 >> >> > done on the PDP-10 would never be done in VMS.F >> >> Hence VMS' demise became my stated goal.  I was one of many who  refusedt >> toiI >> >> develop software for VMS, and instead improved UNIX's lead so that m VMS  >> >> would never catch up.h >> >K >> >....which is just as immature an attitude as that reported of Hustvedt.y >> 4E >> I disagree.  It was the only decision that could be made.  A largeeH >> part of an operating system's development evolution involves feedbackA >> from the field.  Hustvedt would have a fit if a suggestion hadtH >> any smell of PDP-10 land...and that included if the person making the7 >> suggestion had sullied his hands by typing at a -10.   >> This guy was just plain nuts. >> hH >So are you saying that the "terrorists" at DEC were "VMS extremists"??? >a@ Nope.  I'm saying that the lead architect had such a serious NIH> syndrome that it delayed any progress VMS might have been ableB to accomplish early on.  That lack of progress during our infamous< idiotic "integration" promotion gave such a bad taste in our= customers' mouths that they went elsewhere.  There were a lot D of really good programmers and architects in that group.  Hustvedt's9 personality overrode them all.  There was noone who could " tell him "no" and make it stick.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:23:34 -0400 + From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>.@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)1 Message-ID: <3C2183E5.406FBF6C@trailing-edge.com>o   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > 5 > In article <4g5FfWvUUIHD@eisner.encompasserve.org>,a3 >    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:nH > >   The guys who designed VMS were doing something new and differenet,H > >   virtual memory and 4 modes, but were willing to base the OS design* > >   on a tried and proven concept (RSX). > A > Which wasn't timesharing.  Do not confuse a timesharing concept)% > with a task-based concept in an OS..  > Yeah, timesharing stuff isn't any good at real-time stuff :-).  < What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  Was= MPE/V regarded as "true timesharing" on a HP 3000?  How about 8 MPE/iX (which I assume is still commercially available)?   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:58:59 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)- Message-ID: <87d71a7ai4.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,  - Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:,  % > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, bad bob wrote:t  : > > I can not recall the woman's name who was the lead rep  tF > Are we thinking about the same person?  Her most memorable attribute > was her screechy voice.B   D > She proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that OSI was doomed and that > TCP was the way to go.  E Would that have been Radia Perlman? (I think that's the name. She hasa a TCP/IP book out. ex-MIT)   -- )< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:34:48 -0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF18B@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  # Some people were born with Windows.s# Some people learned to use Windows.s2 But most people have had Windows thrust upon them.  " Wind the clock back to, say, 1987.   Some people were born to VMS.	' Some people wanted to learn to use VMS.? But most people just used VMS.  E Wind the clock to the "UNIX interval", the iterregnum between VMS andm Windows ,say 1991.   Some people were born in UNIX. Some people thrived in UNIX.& But most people just got lost in UNIX.     John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKmA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:14:42 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <bth32u41ghh8upg9cnmjfsi31fkgvfdan3@4ax.com>  B On 19 DEC 2001 18:38:31 GMT, Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote:  G >I once heard that there were 2 parallel efforts.  One was specifically<I >oriented toward abstracting device names (which gave us ASSIGN I think).:H >The other was oriented towards non-device name abstractions (which gaveD >us DEFINE.)  By the time someone realized they were really the same >effort we had both commands.E  A But as TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (and probably the KA-10 fore-runner ofLB TOPS-20 Tenex) had these commands since 1970 (assuming TOPS-10 and@ Tenex) isn't it a simpler explanation they just came from there?   >FWIW, >Davev >--------------r: >Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVI >Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myselfT   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:08:59 -0000n8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF18D@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  F >>> VMS sucked from its inception, starting with its obnoxious commandK >>> language which seemed carefully designed to do the wrong thing wheneveri
 >>> possible.u  = >You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything donet >when they used VMS.  % In the above substitute UNIX for VMS.l  J Does anyone know anybody who was able to do any useful real work on a UNIXK system within hours/days/weeks/years of first encountering a UNIX system? IoF know many people, including myself, who were able to work productivelyJ within minutes/hours of their first VMS encounter and I didn't come from a9 DEC background: I came to VMS from an IBM JCL background.s  K Familiarity often breeds myopia especially with UNIX. I blame it on obscurecF and meaningless command names and gigantic command string sequences toJ perform very sophisticated operations and all for what? To demonstrate theF power of UNIX? It certainly does! We normal mortals, the vast majorityE (silent and non-UNIXy), just need to do some work. We're really quite'H content to use an OS which is easy to use and gets the job done. We alsoK recognise that some other OS may be able to perform all the computing I may-L ever imagine I'd want to do in a single command string but I prefer to use aK command I understand and which I will remember the next time I come back to + use after continuing with life for a while.e   VMS     - Live a life! UNIX    - Get a life!  Windows - Live and let die!e   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKpA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:07:59 +0100D2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)G Message-ID: <3c21d4a0$0$19752$5039e797@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>i  E "Arthur Krewat" <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrags/ news:3C20DF93.D97B0D1A@bartek.dontspamme.net...l > Mark Crispin wrote:m > > F > > VMS sucked from its inception, starting with its obnoxious commandK > > language which seemed carefully designed to do the wrong thing wheneverc
 > > possible.R >V, > I think I got the gist of this thread now: >) > 1) Some people hate VMSD > 2) Some people like VMS@- > 3) Some people don't know anything about itb >c > aaka >rE > ps: When are people going to realize that they can't change someonev > else's viewpoint?t   and 3 doesn't exclude 1 or 2   Ren   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:54:21 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <a5k32u06v0a4ii7u82t4078pf8dvuh8fk9@4ax.com>  8 On Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:58:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:    = >You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything donem >when they used VMS.  C Yes when VMS first came out it ran on one of the slower systems DECy@ produced at the time - the 11/780. The KL was much faster and, IA believe, even one of the PDP-11 family was faster than the 11/780s  D Today VMS runs on the fastest (until Compaq mismanagement decided to+ kill it) processor (Alpha) anyone produces.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:26:15 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <s0m32ug5bsjp52o9rhee3i4ck455n7o37h@4ax.com>  8 On Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:56:57 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:     >i> >Not TOPS.  Angle brackets designated file protection.  Square! >brackets designated directories.a  ? TOPS-10 yes. TOPS-20 angle brackets directory and ";P777700" tonE specify a protection mask (as part of the file spec following on froma! the "." delimited version number.n  E Unless you had a habit of using PIP or compiling TOPS-10 DIRECT underoE TOPS-20 in which case you would, of course, get the TOPS-20 filespecs @ presented in TOPS-10 format including dirs and protection codes.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:19:51 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <igk32us55mnrbk2p2vqgnj0un0g8hvp6u3@4ax.com>  0 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:58:15 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:,  G >There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior tolE >VMS.  Portability.  Shell vs. DCL.  Better process management.  MuchbH >better Internet support.  Piping.  The vast library of UNIX tools.  The >list goes on and on.c  B All of the above is now in VMS. Even PIPE functionality on the DCLE command line. The goal of VMS engineering in recent years has been tohD make porting to VMS from an arbitrary Unix no harder than porting toF any other Unix.  About a decade ago DEC had a half-baked attempt to doF this with the VMS Posix subsystem but this time it's being done right.@ As an example the Mozilla browser beta releases come out for VMSD simultaneously to the Unix releases. We're now at Mozilla 0.9.6 with  the functionality of Netscape 6.  A Although occasionally Unix developers break the build on VMS thats@ happens with other Unix variants as well. Work continues in this area..  D Many of the GNU tools build out f the box on VMS and there are portsC of various Unix shells. Apache is supported by Compaq on VMS as thet recommended web-server.   : As to PIPE functionality that's been in VMS for years now.   $ HELP PIPE      PIPE  C      Executes one or more DCL command strings from the same command-E      line. The PIPE command enables you to perform UNIX style commandbF      processing, such as command pipelining, input/output redirection,.      and conditional and background execution.    1 $ pipe show user/full | search syss$input burnettN9  BURNETTG      XXXA1  BURNETTG MA      20893E1B  TNA6469:n9  BURNETTT      XXXA2  208902A4 MGL310  208902A4  TNA6394:0 $E  B You can argue that  the VMS implementation is a bit verbose if you! wish but not that it isn't there.   C Even TCP/IP integration is much, much better and still improving. IiD have an identd server written entirely in DCL as, under VMS's TCP/IPA support, you can associate a DCL .COM file (which can do the work A itself or run an arbitrary program) with a socket just as you canrF under Unix inetd. I even know of someone who wrote a basic NNTP serverA in DCL. Bet I could write a basic IMAP server in DCL given enoughe inclination.   >eH >I was an employee at Stanford when Stanford got one of the first VAXen.J >It came with VMS, but it was converted to UNIX as soon as they got a tapeH >from Berkeley.  I still have an account on that system, although it has >different hardware. >nH >Stanford's CS department is one of the top in the world.  They've neverG >allowed market considerations to dictate what hardware or OS they willaK >run.  Historically, they have run some strange systems in their pursuit of0J >technical excellence.  Why did they choose UNIX?  Stanford EE and KSL areG >also among the top in the world.  They too choose technical excellenceDD >over market considerations.  They're also UNIX shops.  The StanfordG >student computing facility was a DEC-20 clust, and later became a UNIX>' >cluster.  Why didn't they go with VMS?? >>H >Just how many VMS systems are there at Stanford?  Do you need more thanI >one hand to count them?  How many VMS users?  How many thousands of UNIXd5 >systems are there at Stanford?  How many UNIX users?  >iE >If you contend that Stanford picked a technically inferior operatingiJ >system, I know numerous current and former employees at Stanford who will= >say that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.i >r >-- Mark --a >k  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.r   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:16:54 +00001( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)) Message-ID: <3C21E4C6.DEA75795@127.0.0.1>n   Mark Crispin wrote:2 >   H > There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior toF > VMS.  Portability.  Shell vs. DCL.  Better process management.  MuchI > better Internet support.  Piping.  The vast library of UNIX tools.  The  > list goes on and on.  ' Is this a troll? I won't waste my time.l   -- >( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comh   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 11:21:57 GMT; From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsoun$2lo$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <a5k32u06v0a4ii7u82t4078pf8dvuh8fk9@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:a9 >On Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:58:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:o >n > > >>You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything done >>when they used VMS.y > D >Yes when VMS first came out it ran on one of the slower systems DECA >produced at the time - the 11/780. The KL was much faster and, I-B >believe, even one of the PDP-11 family was faster than the 11/780  A IAS-a sane operating system.  It even let you get some work done.      >nE >Today VMS runs on the fastest (until Compaq mismanagement decided too, >kill it) processor (Alpha) anyone produces.  6 Nope.  You're falling into that fast trap again ;-).  9 The _ex-customers_ liked VMS is because it didn't get in  7 their way when they worked.  In fact, it assisted them i8 with its help facility.  People keep forgetting that the9 majority of users on timesharing systems have other kindsh of work to do.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 11:15:42 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsoj0$2lo$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   1 In article <3C2183E5.406FBF6C@trailing-edge.com>,i/    Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:d >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:- >> -6 >> In article <4g5FfWvUUIHD@eisner.encompasserve.org>,4 >>    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:I >> >   The guys who designed VMS were doing something new and differenet,nI >> >   virtual memory and 4 modes, but were willing to base the OS designn+ >> >   on a tried and proven concept (RSX).c >> oB >> Which wasn't timesharing.  Do not confuse a timesharing concept& >> with a task-based concept in an OS. > ? >Yeah, timesharing stuff isn't any good at real-time stuff :-).a  : Exactly.  Does it strike you weird that this whole thread 7 doesn't seem to recognize that both are useful?  It wasn? clear to me that the throughput problems of the Unix philosophy > stemmed directly from the fact that it was produced on an -11.- I don't understand why people don't see this.V   >n= >What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  Wase> >MPE/V regarded as "true timesharing" on a HP 3000?  How about9 >MPE/iX (which I assume is still commercially available)?w  @ I don't know.  I've learned that people out there have a strange? idea about the definition of timesharing.  Now, it is perfectly = possible that it is me who has the strange definition becausea' I'm firmly TOPS-10 biased out of habit.e   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 11:27:57 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vsp9v$2lo$3@bob.news.rcn.net>o  8 In article <sld32uomrh9be1j6bfhdkso8ngbtfbqfok@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:aG >On 19 Dec 2001 10:44:55 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s >wrote:  >t >>F >>   many high level languages.  Forks instead of processes.  A loader >aD >Other than the name I'm not sure what you are getting at  by "forks >instead of processes" >hH >>   that really was:  you loaded all your objects into memory, then youH >>   could run them, or you could dump them back out to an executable in >aC >Unless my memory has really failed LINK could write the executablen
 >directly    Yup.    > > ...(must get more time with the emulators) to disk just likeB >under VMS. What VMS can't do is load an object file directly into+ >memory which TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 could do.o >sE >>   a file.  A lot of security holes.  The inability to separate the H >>   concepts of an authorized user and a disk directory.  No predefined >iD >The only link between authorized user and disk directory was on theD >PS: public structure with non files-only directories. If you wantedG >the directory need not even be writable or at a minimum you would justaF >store LOGIN.CMD and Mail files there. Any site could use the templateC >ACJ - Access Control Job facility to add any kind of authorization/A >granting or denial to resources they wished - or even completely( >design their own from scratch.l >aE >>   RMS (eventually COBOL and FORTRAN groups realized they were both0< >>   doing record management and came up with a common RMS). >>F >>   If you were used to thinking this way you might not want to learn: >>   anything new or different from what you'd been doing. >>G >>   The guys who designed VMS were doing something new and differenet, G >>   virtual memory and 4 modes, but were willing to base the OS designk > G >TOPS-20 didn't have virtual memory? That's a new one on me!! You'll bevC >telling me next TOPS-20 didn't have copy-on-write page protection.e  = Shhh...don't tell them but TOPS-10 knew how, too.  That's howa% we got to the 6-level version number.    > ) >>   on a tried and proven concept (RSX).p >oF >The TOPS-20 front end (handling terminal I/O mainly) ran RSX-20 on an >11/40 (44?)  @ Right.  We might as well quit.  The DECnet folks didn't have any: idea that a lot of the Phase IV functionality was already @ in ANF-10.  AAMOF, a lot of the DECnet people had never heard of; ANF-10.  That's a side effect of having development groups 2& physically segregated by product line.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.c   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 11:31:33 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com2@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vspgm$2lo$4@bob.news.rcn.net>n  1 In article <3C2181E0.3A52501F@trailing-edge.com>,t/    Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:e >a.carlini wrote:o >> 	 >> Paul Repacholi wrote: >> >J >> > No, they came in late 3.x or V4 time. People asked for CMND and Exec.G >> > They got 39+39 char file names, and the <> directory delimiters...l >> e5 >> Assuming I parsed that correctly, I beg to differ.p, >> The VAX/VMS Command Language User's Guide+ >> for VAX/VMS V02 (as it quaintly puts it)r+ >> allows both <> and .v (as well as [] andl >> ;v).l >> d+ >> Filenames longer than 8.3 (?) cropped up( >> in V4.0 IIRC. >p9 >9.3.  VMSINSTAL.COM has been around for a long time :-).a > ? >Besides, RSX always had 9.3 (3+1 words of RAD50 and all that.)n  < Perhaps, but the tradition limited the filename to six (most9 of that work was done on a PDP-10 running TOPS-10).  Looka< up cross-assemblers.  We didn't key in the programmers' code< on an -11 unless specifically asked.  It was easier to enter8 it on the -10 using TECO then MACY11ing or MACX11ing it.9 If we had done all of that work on an -11, it would have e? taken up a system that the development guys wanted stand-alone.a? There was no such thing as timesharing on an -11 in those days.h   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.P   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 13:45:05 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)2 Message-ID: <9vsq11$2hrm$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  > In article <1veU7.19506$Sj1.11282692@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:eF >Some OSes are match-grade target pistols, others are cheap-and-cheesyB >Saturday Night Specials. I for one would opt for the high-quality
 >alternative.c  C Some OSes are AK47s ... cheap, reliable, and crude. Others are more E like the Army's new 'smart gun'... they can tell you the range to the.C target, fire an exploding shell to go through a window and detonateoC just on the other side, and have so many deatures and weigh so muchoB that the guy with the AK47 gets the drop on you while you're still* trying to figure out which button to push.  B And then there's Windows... the best damn Super Soaker made today.   -- o@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)h   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 13:52:21 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)2 Message-ID: <9vsqel$2i52$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  1 In article <3C2183E5.406FBF6C@trailing-edge.com>,n- Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote: 8 >What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  H OS/9000, QNX, OSE, dozens more... there's a bunch of realtime systems. IG really like the design of QNX, myself, but I've never had the chance totG work with it. For a while it looked like QNX was going to come out as alG consumer OS, first as the new Amiga OS, then after Amiga decided not to F pay for the port that had already been done there were rumors that QNXG was coming out with it anyway. Alas, there's been a couple of cool demoeD floppies but they seem to have given up entering the general market.   -- i@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:24:43 GMT33 From: sy18889@rabbit.fmr.com (Bradford J. Hamilton)-@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS). Message-ID: <LX4U7.21$M3.62@news-srv1.fmr.com>  M That confirms my observations, after I did some testing last night and today.$   The "workaround" is correct; I *think* that this behavior breaks the spirit, if not the letter, of the SMTP RFC's.  Would any ofM the good folk at COMPAQ who lurk here like a customer to submit a bug report?    --Brad  ` In article <3C20D086.BF1BBCE2@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>, Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> writes: >"Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote:D >> I have TCPIP V5.1, and I often send email to username@domain.xxx.A >> I have not experienced any issues.  Can you give an example ofe >> what happens on your system?b >cP >The issue is that the DEC version, at least since the C re-write, makes a checkP >for username viability BEFORE it switches transports to TCPIP.  So any username/ >that is invalid on VMS will yield the dratted:2 >0F >%MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification 'O'REILLY@SOMEWHERE.COM' >uP >despite the fact that this check should not be made at all when sending mail toN >remote nodes.  So on my system the mail cannot be sent without specifying theP >longhand smtp%"o'reilly@somewhere.com" address.  I think it also uppercases the/ >username, which is another irritating feature.e >o > - JB Bradford J. Hamilton  bradhamilton@mediaone.net	(home) sy18889@rabbit.fmr.com		(work)  ; "All opinions that I express are my own, not my employer's"    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 08:28:12 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <8pYKmQD8D3RB@eisner.encompasserve.org>c   In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112192048180.2546-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: ) > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, John Santos wrote:r
 >> all the 10N0 >> and Unix bigots have been on a rampage since. >  > It's called payback time.d > L > Two decades ago, VMS bigots thought that it was very funny to see 20 yearsL > of PDP-10 software flushed down the toilet.  Now they are facing their own6 > turn down the toilet.  Not so funny any more, is it? >   B 	Not so fast... VMS is still gaining big wins.  Come back in a fewC 	years.  And even if it happened, sure got a *MUCH* longer run thanr= 	the 10, so those visionaries back then were right after all.-   > K > Describe the VMS commands to analyze why a program which just crashed didgC > so, and how the crashed process can be restarted with the problem K > remedied.  Oh, and no running it under a debugger beforehand; it's got to  > be completely post-mortem. >   B 	Nice tool.  I can see why you need it.  The software I am runningF 	in the cluster next door with remote member a few thousand feet away  	doesn't crash (1).    				Robc   (1)  Years of running.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 01 12:27:48 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)+ Message-ID: <9vssq5$gg6$2@bob.news.rcn.net>n  3 In article <8pYKmQD8D3RB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, /    young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:e >In article K <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112192048180.2546-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, s- Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:a* >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, John Santos wrote: >>> all the 101 >>> and Unix bigots have been on a rampage since.  >> l >> It's called payback time. >> NH >> Two decades ago, VMS bigots thought that it was very funny to see 20  years J >> of PDP-10 software flushed down the toilet.  Now they are facing their  owno7 >> turn down the toilet.  Not so funny any more, is it?p >>   >vC >	Not so fast... VMS is still gaining big wins.  Come back in a fewo
 >	years.    > We will.  And then we'll tell you we told you so.  Look.  Most@ of us are not here to rehash old shit.  However, we are strongly> warning you with every fiber we can muster.  Go take a look at@ what kinds of effort is involved in resurrecting useful software= and we had the distinct advantage that we shipped our sourcesn& on the same tape as the executables.      ; VMS is useful.  It asists user to get their work done using  computing as a tool.  ? > ...And even if it happened, sure got a *MUCH* longer run than0> >	the 10, so those visionaries back then were right after all.   Are you kidding?   <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:06:16 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>C@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <rlq32u0486bemp9vj40mb5f9pj5gm63bfd@4ax.com>  0 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:58:15 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:v   >nH >VMS and UNIX are in the same market.  People had a choice.  They choose= >UNIX, and did so even when VMS was bundled with the machine.e > G >There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior to E >VMS.  Portability.  Shell vs. DCL.  Better process management.  MuchsH >better Internet support.  Piping.  The vast library of UNIX tools.  The >list goes on and on.e  ? For a more balanced view of Unix vs VMS, "Let's do the timewarphD again". Here's what you said Mark in 1984. With Google all our pasts5 come back to haunt us. Especially note your point (3)e  B Btw, I'm the person who sent you a UK PAL copy of The Rocky HorrorD Picture show way back then when there was no US release. Perhaps allA of us, as we get older, let that chip get a little bigger and oure3 biases more pronounced. I know it's happened to me.e   Sorry about the ridiculous URL	http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=5871%40brl-tgr.ARPA&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmark%2Bcrispin%26hl%3Den%26as_drrb%3Db%26as_mind%3D12%26as_minm%3D5%26as_miny%3D1981%26as_maxd%3D20%26as_maxm%3D12%26as_maxy%3D1984%26rnum%3D2%26selm%3D5871%2540brl-tgr.ARPAi   Message 13 in thread o& From: Mark Crispin (MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA)  Subject: Unix bugs vs. VMS bugs  Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards View this article only y Date: 1984-11-17 23:52:11 PST   k  8      This sort of issue comes up whenever people get the? impression that there are any absolutes.  Just about any systeml@ can benefit from having an on-site wizard, even if the operating= system is manufacturer-supported (e.g. VMS, TOPS-20, VM/370).:A While the cost of ownership of a wizard is non-trivial (yes, theyD: do "spend lots of time on the phone, going to conferences,@ reading nets like this, and hacking"), consider the alternative.: You are either stuck with the product as it comes from theA manufacturer or you find yourself forced to rent a wizard -- thats is, you must hire a consultant.   =      Now I have nothing against consultants!  I'm a full-time 9 rental wizard (tr: independent consultant) and I find the < business quite lucrative.  I hope that attitudes such as Jon@ Forrest's continue -- customers with that attitude comprise most of my business.   ;      The "people problem" with Unix is not the wizards, buteA rather the groupies.  I define a "Unix groupie" as any individualc: who (1) considers Unix in its present state to be software? perfection, (2) refuses to believe that other operating systemso< have features too, (3) makes noises of disgust whenever some@ other operating system is mentioned, (4) makes noises of disgust= whenever some programming language other than C is mentioned.h9 It's reminiscent of the APL\360 groupies of 15 years ago.-  A      Unix does have a software maturity problem.  I for one would @ love to see a standard Unix.  It unnerves me when I must relearnA "how to do X" just because I'm using somebody else's Unix system.sA Many of these incompatibilities seem to be completely gratuitous.t> Also, Unix lacks some very basic facilities which are only now? starting to appear: process-to-process memory mapping (for both A read and write), process-to-file memory mapping, file interlocks,a@ long file names, user-friendly command interfaces (sh, csh, ksh,A etc. are many things, but user-friendly is not one of them), etc.-> I wish that these things would all appear in all places in the> same way, but I fear that in just about every minor version of# Unix it'll be completely different.D  =      Unix is clearly not for the fainthearted.  If you really6? don't care all that much what the operating system does for youw@ -- e.g. all you want is a FORTRAN engine -- then Unix may not be@ your answer.  You can use a "throwaway" operating system such as> VMS.  If you actually start USING some special feature of your> operating system, you may start caring about what happens when$ you have to change computer vendors.  ?      Finally, I cannot let the comment about "Unix being betterwA than any other operating system (except VMS)" go by unchallenged. A I can't see how anybody can possibly make such grand claims abouty; VMS.  It's the manufacturer-supplied operating system for au@ superminicomputer which is now (with the 8600) selling at (high)? mainframe prices.  It's an upgrade from an earlier minicomputero@ operating system from that manufacturer, but still some years(!)A away from achieving the level of functionality of other operatingVA systems from that manufacturer's other product lines!  It's stilla a dinosaur.g   Mark Crispin MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA  -------w      H >I was an employee at Stanford when Stanford got one of the first VAXen.J >It came with VMS, but it was converted to UNIX as soon as they got a tapeH >from Berkeley.  I still have an account on that system, although it has >different hardware. > H >Stanford's CS department is one of the top in the world.  They've neverG >allowed market considerations to dictate what hardware or OS they willhK >run.  Historically, they have run some strange systems in their pursuit ofgJ >technical excellence.  Why did they choose UNIX?  Stanford EE and KSL areG >also among the top in the world.  They too choose technical excellence D >over market considerations.  They're also UNIX shops.  The StanfordG >student computing facility was a DEC-20 clust, and later became a UNIX ' >cluster.  Why didn't they go with VMS?r >sH >Just how many VMS systems are there at Stanford?  Do you need more thanI >one hand to count them?  How many VMS users?  How many thousands of UNIXe5 >systems are there at Stanford?  How many UNIX users?n >eE >If you contend that Stanford picked a technically inferior operatingmJ >system, I know numerous current and former employees at Stanford who will= >say that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  >e >-- Mark --  >t  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:12:13 -0000u8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF18E@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  G >That confirms my observations, after I did some testing last night andG today.  E >The "workaround" is correct; I *think* that this behavior breaks theo; spirit, if not the letter, of the SMTP RFC's.  Would any ofrF >the good folk at COMPAQ who lurk here like a customer to submit a bug report?r    K That also confirms my experience of the interpretation of many protocols in0I that software i.e. the interpretation may be technically correct but it's K different from every other implementation in existence and thus essentially K makes the package unusable for many things: usually interworking with otherV TCP/IP implementations.e  L I predict you'll get nowhere with a bug report but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKrA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:11:56 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>t@ Subject: RE: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----A > From: Daniel Seagraves [mailto:dseagrav@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net]a  @ > OSes are like guns.  People become attached to their favorite  > gun.  ThehG > accuracy of the weapon depends a large deal on the skill of the user.uF > You can shoot yourself in the foot with any given gun.  Guns are not4 > idiot-proof, and never will be.  The list goes on.  0 Don't forget... "all OS's are always loaded." ;)  K "Don't point a manual at somebody unless you intend to whack them with it."@   Regards,   Chris     ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer> Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");P 'l  s   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 22:46:49 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)- Message-ID: <874rmm6jae.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   : > On Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:58:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  8? > >You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything dones > >when they used VMS.  eE > Yes when VMS first came out it ran on one of the slower systems DECaB > produced at the time - the 11/780. The KL was much faster and, IC > believe, even one of the PDP-11 family was faster than the 11/780s  sF > Today VMS runs on the fastest (until Compaq mismanagement decided to- > kill it) processor (Alpha) anyone produces.h  D Two data points. One of the 10 sites here went to 8600s. The commentB was that if the KL-10 (and theirs was a C or D, not an E or later)@ could have had memory expanded to match the Venus, it would have possibly been a bit quicker.  B I replaced an 11/44 with TWO 750s in a cluster. :( The 750s had noA margin, but the 44 was fine. That was the beginning of 85. I have@C no doubt that a 11/74 would have screwed a 780 into the ground, andhD that that was why it was killed. As well as the 500 cables with 1000$ connectors :) all waiting to fail...     -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 06:54:33 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>o@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)) Message-ID: <9vsu3901fqh@drn.newsguy.com>y  L In article <9vsqel$2i52$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com says... >b2 >In article <3C2183E5.406FBF6C@trailing-edge.com>,. >Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:9 >>What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  >BI >OS/9000, QNX, OSE, dozens more... there's a bunch of realtime systems. IaH >really like the design of QNX, myself, but I've never had the chance to >work with it.  3 At its core, aren't QNX and OS/9000 microkernels?  :  C Everything I've read about QNX makes it sound similar to RSX.  Lotse? of realtime priority levels, filesystem code living outside the@C executive, ability to hook code to hardware interrupts easily, etc. B Again, the opposite of the monolithic "timesharing monitor" to me.   Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:33:25 -0500e( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)B Message-ID: <20011220103027.I86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>    On 19 Dec 2001, Rob Young wrote:   >o? > 	It proved it was a better solution for most folks.  Now thati@ > 	the shoe is on another foot (Windows versus Unix) we will seeB > 	how much ground Windows gains at Unix' expense.  After all, W2K+ > 	is technologically far superior to Unix.v >u  I Actually, W2K isn't superior to anything. And, it isn't gaining ground onlH Unix.  It targetted a whole new market that Unix never held, the home PCI market.  The number of available Unix system worldwide is even larger nowrK than it was before the introduction of any form of Gatesware.  Can VMS makeo the same claim??   bill   -- 4J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:44:51 +0100+ From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org>0@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS), Message-ID: <85heqlrj4c.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:a  > Sorry about the ridiculous URL> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=5871%40brl-tgr.ARPA&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmark%2Bcrispin%26hl%3Den%26as_drrb%3Db%26as_mind%3D12%26as_minm%3D5%26as_miny%3D1981%26as_maxd%3D20%26as_maxm%3D12%26as_maxy%3D1984%26rnum%3D2%26selm%3D5871%2540brl-tgr.ARPA    A more pleasant URL would be8   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5871@brl-tgr.ARPA   -- RF Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10? Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programminge   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:06:34 -0500s( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)B Message-ID: <20011220110526.F86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  # On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, bad bob wrote:i   > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >n* > > On 19 Dec 2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >- > > >aL > > > Oh come on, an OS is a tool to get work done, not a toy that you might! > > > be emotionally attached to.w > > >t > >dG > > Are you saying the people here aren't emotionally attached to VMS??n: > > That's the funniest thing I've heard so far this week. > Bill,sC > I think this proves that Jan missed one of the real points of thedF > entire thread: many of us became and still are attached to things we. > put a good bit of our creative efforts into. >b  G You don't have to sell me.  I've got a cellar at home and a lab at worky full of PDP-11's and VAXen.    bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 10:52:13 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <QdaytLRYA6HS@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  E In article <9vsfqc$1ng$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:e5 > In article <bPdy0bnguswq@eisner.encompasserve.org>,w3 >    koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:l >>I >>   Having programmed on TOPS-20 for years and finding it's architecture)G >>   and that of the PDP-10 to be a mjor PITA, I'm glad they succeeded.- >>1 >>   I was so happy when I moved to VMS off TOPS.@ >>= > Interesting.  I had problems wrapping my neurons around theoF > byte concepts ala VAX.  Can you describe why you didn't like the -10; > architecture?  Was the programming interface or the basice > instruction set? > H > From what you said (VMS), may I assume that you preferred higher level@ > language programming rather than machine language programming?  D    I've programmed with a great many assemblers on a wide variety ofC    architectures.  The PDP-10 architecture is by no means the worstk@    (I'll nominate 80386 for that).  My problems with the PDP-10     architecture were:e  H    1) PDP-10 is the only architecture I've worked with which has no userB    accessable CPU registers.  One tends to use the accumulators onD    a PDP-10 as one would use registers on other systems, so for thisF    comment I'll use the generic word register for both:  the PDP-10 isE    the only system I've used on which one register (accumulator 0) isrD    sometimes a real register and sometimes ignored.  Tripped up over    that one many times.t  E    2) The use of a conditional skip instead of a conditional branch. a;    Assembly language programmers just don't think that way.x  F    3) The difficulties one had to go through to manipulate characters F    in 36 bits words as 7 bit bytes, and the impossibility of dumping 7G    bit characters in a recognizeable representation in a hex, octal, orh!    any other commonly used radix.   J    4) The limitted address range, even extended addressing was limitted to    23 bits.-  F    5) The requirement (except on the 2020) to use a PDP-11 in order toK    communicate with the outside world.  Typically an 11/40 or 11/60 serial e6    and print front end and an 11/34A DECnet front end.  I    6) The requirement for every fork to initialize it's own stack.   And wH    the ability of some instructions to use any accumulator as the stack I    pointer, while other instruction assumed the standard stack pointer.  e5    So when is the stack pointer in the stack pointer?e      7) Not enough accumulators.  E    8) No support for paging (virtual memory concepts were limitted toe
    swapping).P          ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 10:52:57 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <5YOQpcTmJ2yq@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  E In article <9vsg9j$1ng$6@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  > A > Which wasn't timesharing.  Do not confuse a timesharing conceptP% > with a task-based concept in an OS.   '    Who said anything about timesharing?s   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:56:29 GMTu* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)B Message-ID: <1LoU7.173237$C8.12016265@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9vsgl8$1ng$9@bob.news.rcn.net...: > In article <oe932usbfn868oi7s0an4jv6i25qaa3q01@4ax.com>,+ >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:s   ...S  H > >DEC's early C support on VMS with VAX C and associated RTLs was closeC > >to a joke. Even most VMS fanatics will agree with that. Over theeD > >years, and especially with the addition of DEC C, things improved > >markedly.@ > That's because, along with the One Operating System, there was? > also this edict about the One Implementation Language, namely  > <spit>BLISS.  J I think you'd get some argument from the FORTRAN and COBOL compiler groupsK on that point, and likely others as well.  The fact that Bliss was the *OS*hF implementation language didn't prevent DEC from taking other languages& seriously for application development.  L If VAX C was just a front-end cobbled-together to take advantage of Cutler'sH PL/1 back-end, that might explain some of its shortcomings (I just don't remember the details).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 10:58:12 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <YsXs9mmG2TYr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <a5k32u06v0a4ii7u82t4078pf8dvuh8fk9@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:: > On Thu, 20 Dec 01 08:58:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >  > > >>You forgot a fourth.  Some people couldn't get anything done >>when they used VMS.i > E > Yes when VMS first came out it ran on one of the slower systems DECeB > produced at the time - the 11/780. The KL was much faster and, IC > believe, even one of the PDP-11 family was faster than the 11/780e >   H    I don't think so.  IIRC the fastest PPD-11 at the time was the 11/70,A    which had a simmilar hardware architecture with the UNIBUS andy>    MASSBUS hanging of the SBI, but ran slower than the 11/780.  @    But it was good when DEC brought out the 8650 and finally hadA    something supporting VMS that was an order of magnitude fasterb    than the 11/780.,   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:10:31 GMT-* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)B Message-ID: <bYoU7.284629$uB.30765605@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9vsoun$2lo$2@bob.news.rcn.net...: > In article <a5k32u06v0a4ii7u82t4078pf8dvuh8fk9@4ax.com>,+ >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:a   ...w  F > >Yes when VMS first came out it ran on one of the slower systems DECC > >produced at the time - the 11/780. The KL was much faster and, IyD > >believe, even one of the PDP-11 family was faster than the 11/780 >lC > IAS-a sane operating system.  It even let you get some work done.a  G I suspect Alan was referring to hardware capabilities.  But I'm curiouslL about your reaction to IAS, since it was built on top of RSX-11D - which hadF real-time capabilities and shared significant architectural roots withJ RSX-11M and VMS.  This ties into another of your posts where you seemed toC suggest that having a good time-sharing environment was in some wayaK incompatible with having a good real-time environment (so I won't raise thep question there separately).f  A VMS did over time take significant steps toward supporting decentnJ time-sharing use, and in fact from the beginning was *not* positioned as aI 'hard' real-time system (in contrast to RSX and RT on the 11).  And while-G trying to be most things to most people indeed increased its complexity K (another criticism raised elsewhere), IIRC IAS suffered from a very similar  problem.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 11:11:33 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)3 Message-ID: <9XnBihzsUzPG@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  m In article <20011220103027.I86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes: " > On 19 Dec 2001, Rob Young wrote: >  >>@ >> 	It proved it was a better solution for most folks.  Now thatA >> 	the shoe is on another foot (Windows versus Unix) we will see C >> 	how much ground Windows gains at Unix' expense.  After all, W2Ke, >> 	is technologically far superior to Unix. >> > K > Actually, W2K isn't superior to anything. And, it isn't gaining ground onnJ > Unix.  It targetted a whole new market that Unix never held, the home PCK > market.  The number of available Unix system worldwide is even larger now M > than it was before the introduction of any form of Gatesware.  Can VMS makes > the same claim?? > ? 	But why are you overlooking W2K Datacenter and W2K Enterprise?l   				Robl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:22:43 -0700n4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)/ Message-ID: <D7pU7.36$pZ.64687@news.uswest.net>c  G I went round and round with Compaq VMS/TCP/IP support on this one.  TheeG problem is that you have to get the default VMS mailer to just turn the9K message over to the SMTP handler and that's not easy.  I solved it, by veryeK carefully rereading the SMTP configuration documentation.  Compaq never did E solve it for me.  The solution is in the TCPIP Set configuration SMTP 	 commands.C --
 Mike Ober.  @ "Bradford J. Hamilton" <sy18889@rabbit.fmr.com> wrote in message( news:LX4U7.21$M3.62@news-srv1.fmr.com...H > That confirms my observations, after I did some testing last night and today. >rF > The "workaround" is correct; I *think* that this behavior breaks the; spirit, if not the letter, of the SMTP RFC's.  Would any ofhG > the good folk at COMPAQ who lurk here like a customer to submit a bug/ report?e >t > --Brad >rC > In article <3C20D086.BF1BBCE2@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>, Jonathan Boswellv <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> writes:  > >"Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote:F > >> I have TCPIP V5.1, and I often send email to username@domain.xxx.C > >> I have not experienced any issues.  Can you give an example of2! > >> what happens on your system?- > >-L > >The issue is that the DEC version, at least since the C re-write, makes a checksI > >for username viability BEFORE it switches transports to TCPIP.  So anye username1 > >that is invalid on VMS will yield the dratted:c > >dH > >%MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification 'O'REILLY@SOMEWHERE.COM' > >aJ > >despite the fact that this check should not be made at all when sending mail tofL > >remote nodes.  So on my system the mail cannot be sent without specifying theoC > >longhand smtp%"o'reilly@somewhere.com" address.  I think it also. uppercases the1 > >username, which is another irritating feature.. > >o > > - JB > Bradford J. Hamilton" > bradhamilton@mediaone.net (home) > sy18889@rabbit.fmr.com (work)o >a= > "All opinions that I express are my own, not my employer's",   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:37:10 GMT\* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)@ Message-ID: <alpU7.67073$Zd.6229051@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9vspgm$2lo$4@bob.news.rcn.net...   ...4  > > Perhaps, but the tradition limited the filename to six (most5 > of that work was done on a PDP-10 running TOPS-10).@  4 Not on RSX systems.  But that was the limit on RSTS.     Look> > up cross-assemblers.  We didn't key in the programmers' code> > on an -11 unless specifically asked.  It was easier to enter: > it on the -10 using TECO then MACY11ing or MACX11ing it.: > If we had done all of that work on an -11, it would haveA > taken up a system that the development guys wanted stand-alone.gA > There was no such thing as timesharing on an -11 in those days.   H I suspect RSTS aficionados would disagree (unless you're talking earlier/ than 1973 - 4; can't remember RSTS' birthdate).E   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 17:41:11 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)% Message-ID: <9vt7rn$bed@web.nmti.com>i  3 In article <YsXs9mmG2TYr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:J >    I don't think so.  IIRC the fastest PPD-11 at the time was the 11/70,C >    which had a simmilar hardware architecture with the UNIBUS and @ >    MASSBUS hanging of the SBI, but ran slower than the 11/780.  E Our experience was that the 11/70 was faster than the 11/780 for real F applications and loads, so long as said applications actually *fit* inG the 64kw code+data available to the PDP-11. The difference was marginal-G at low loads, but under high load we could support twice as many users.a  G Now if you were using overlays on the 11 then the VAX smoked its 16-bito tail.M   -- s+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.aE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything.".L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:49:01 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)B Message-ID: <hwpU7.284691$uB.30783564@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messagea< news:20011220103027.I86233-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu...   ...l  + > Actually, W2K isn't superior to anything.c  H While it's easy to get a bit carried away in these debates, that's a bitD extreme:  Win2K is likely superior to at least most previous Windows systems.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:37:23 +0000b% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>i@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)' Message-ID: <3C2221D3.ED83F21E@iee.org>d   Tim Shoppa wrote:  >  > a.carlini wrote:: > 9.3.  VMSINSTAL.COM has been around for a long time :-).  1 True. Off by one ... sorry ... common problem :-)U   Antoniol   --     ---------------n- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:58:16 GMTe3 From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US>n@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS). Message-ID: <u8zbxzscn.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>  @ >>>>> On 20 Dec 2001 10:52:13 -0600, Bob Koehler ("Bob") writes:K  Bob>    2) The use of a conditional skip instead of a conditional branch.  A  Bob>    Assembly language programmers just don't think that way.   4 I think this is the funniest of the things you said.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:43:22 +0000|% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)' Message-ID: <3C22233A.E83DE356@iee.org>o   Peter da Silva wrote:s  ) > Then I suspect that was put in RSX for  " > TOPS compatibility. I have never* > seen <nnn,nnn> used in RSX in real life.  ) As I say, I've never used RSX in anger, I - just happened to have a manual handy. I think8( at that time there seemed to be a lot of& empahsis on having DCL as common among+ various platforms as possible. (The manual 1) has another appendix that describes diffs1% between this RMS and the one on POS).r  9 > Everything was in octal in RSX. Groups and members, tooe  / I was surprised about the version numbers - buti2 then that's because I'm used to them being decimal2 on VMS. [group,member] stayed octal on VMS though.   > F > And ";-1" and ";*" were both hardcoded special cases. I don't recall8 > what ";0" did offhand... was it an alternate for ";*"?  3 ;0 and ; both mean the highest version present wheno0 reading and one higher than the highest existing version when creating.   Antonio    -- u   ---------------b- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:47:14 +0100n2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS); Message-ID: <3c222422.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>n  , Mark Crispin (mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) wrote:H > There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior to > VMS. s  # You're getting on my nerves, troll.e   > Portability.  E Errr... yes - if the software's author used autoconf (and autoheader,bE and GNU configure, and whatelse...) to cover all the details that arew) different between the various Eunuchses.     >  Shell vs. DCL.   D Which one specifically? I admit that DCL is somewhat baroque, but if> I look at Eunuch's shell scripting, I turn my head in disgust.   > Better process management.    E You wouldn't mean the recent fight about the Linux process scheduler,-
 or would you?     > Much better Internet support.   < And such brain-dead protocols as LPR/LPD and FTP among them.  C I suggest you take a look at the current versions of Compaq TCP/IP,H% TCPware, or MultiNet. It's all there.c  
 > Piping.   9 VMS has it. When was the last time you had a look at VMS?e  " > The vast library of UNIX tools.   C ...that you urgently need, or else you wouldn't get a thing done...v  K Including such uncomprehensible perls as sendmail, uucp, nroff, vi, and ex.a  H Besides: have a look at the DECUS libraries, the WKU archive (now hostedD at Process Software), and the Freeware CDs. There are *lots* of free
 VMS software.    > The list goes on and on.  C - Every command defines it's own switches, so you can't count on -ohE   to specify the /OUTPUT, or -v to mean /VERBOSE. Command consistencye.   isn't exactly one of Eunuchs' strong points.  C - The error messages take a lot of crystal balling to find out whatc   really is wrong.  G - File locking? No, I don't mean advisory, I'm talking about mandatory. M   And to take it further: record locking? No? Too bad everything is a stream.'  E - When was the last time you patched one of your great Internet toolsr&   following a CERT report? Last month?  4 - Eunuchs' "all or nothing" privilege setting sucks.  ) - Did they recently get clustering right?m   With real resource sharing?w   With 90+ machines?  8 - I won't even mention Galaxy here - it's too far out...  % As you said, the list goes on and on.   G To round it up, I'll repeat the Compaq marketing VMS reference list formC you, to help you see where (outside of Stanford, that is) VMS runs:a  " - #1 rated OS in the Health marketH - 90% of the world's chips are made with OpenVMS - most likely including   the ones in your PC'; - 50% of the world's cellular phone billing systems run VMSrG - combined with Tandem, VMS controls 95% of the worlds stock exchanges.hH   The 1st new stock exchange in 25 years was announced around Xmas 1998.   Guess what OS it runs.   cu,    Martin -- lF   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.derF    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:08:43 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)2 Message-ID: <9vt9fb$2q89$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ) In article <9vsu3901fqh@drn.newsguy.com>,p- Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:tM >In article <9vsqel$2i52$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com says...g3 >>In article <3C2183E5.406FBF6C@trailing-edge.com>,a/ >>Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:-: >>>What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  F Ack. For some reason my brain read this as "true realtime monitors". II beg your pardon, and I'll figure out something to blame the mistake on...n um, new glasses?  J >>OS/9000, QNX, OSE, dozens more... there's a bunch of realtime systems. II >>really like the design of QNX, myself, but I've never had the chance ton >>work with it.o  4 >At its core, aren't QNX and OS/9000 microkernels?    J QNX is. OS/9000 comes from an age when the concept of a microkernel hadn'tJ been really solidified... but of course most good realtime systems seem toF look much like a microkernel. Anyway, let's roll back and look at your& question again with my old glasses on:  - Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:a8 >What "true timesharing monitors" still exist out there?  B IBM surely has something, and Unisys is still shipping Univac-1100A architecture boxen complete with an updated version of Exec-1100.e   -- m@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:27:54 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)2 Message-ID: <9vtaja$2qrl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  B In article <hwpU7.284691$uB.30783564@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:eI >While it's easy to get a bit carried away in these debates, that's a biteE >extreme:  Win2K is likely superior to at least most previous Windowsl	 >systems.   D NT 3.51 has a number of technical advantages to NT4.0 and successor < systems, particularly for a server or multiuser environment.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:40:21 GMTrL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)8 Message-ID: <00A06CCB.304A81C1@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0112192359440.2816-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: @ >On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:N >> In number of licenses sold or computers deployed, it seems very likely thatM >> there are orders of magnitude more Windows systems (counting all variants)B- >> than Unix systems (counting all variants).  > I >Non-sequitor.  The primary market for Windows is on the desktop, whereas H >the primary market for UNIX is in servers.  Each have made inroads into8 >the other market, but the dichotomy continues to exist.  K There were plenty of people in the 1980s and 1990s doing their best to sellaN desktop Unix systems.  Sun didn't get in the big-honking-server business untilO after buying the Cray intellectual property from SGI.  Unix was trying hard for2+ the desktop market; Windows kicked its ass.0 >iJ >The only thing that the number of Windows systems vs. UNIX systems provesE >is that the desktop market has more individual units than the servers >market.  Well duh.e >tP >> Of course this doesn't make it technically superior; the idea was to show theN >> flaw in Mark Crispin's logic, where he explained that the market had proved- >> that Unix was technically superior to VMS.c >l >Another non-sequitor from you.b >tH >VMS and UNIX are in the same market.  People had a choice.  They choose= >UNIX, and did so even when VMS was bundled with the machine.i >fG >There's a long list of things in which UNIX is technically superior tooE >VMS.  Portability.  Shell vs. DCL.  Better process management.  MuchnH >better Internet support.  Piping.  The vast library of UNIX tools.  The >list goes on and on.   N Thanks for beginning to make evaluatable claims.  I wasn't actually interestedK in a Unix-vs-VMS pissing contest; I was just objecting to an assertion thatgC the market success had proved anything about technical superiority.S    H >I was an employee at Stanford when Stanford got one of the first VAXen.J >It came with VMS, but it was converted to UNIX as soon as they got a tapeH >from Berkeley.  I still have an account on that system, although it has >different hardware. >cH >Stanford's CS department is one of the top in the world.  They've neverG >allowed market considerations to dictate what hardware or OS they will9K >run.  Historically, they have run some strange systems in their pursuit of0J >technical excellence.  Why did they choose UNIX?  Stanford EE and KSL areG >also among the top in the world.  They too choose technical excellence D >over market considerations.  They're also UNIX shops.  The StanfordG >student computing facility was a DEC-20 clust, and later became a UNIXi' >cluster.  Why didn't they go with VMS?n >gH >Just how many VMS systems are there at Stanford?  Do you need more thanI >one hand to count them?  How many VMS users?  How many thousands of UNIX 5 >systems are there at Stanford?  How many UNIX users?e  H (My laboratory, SSRL, is part of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.H SSRL has about fifty VMS systems; I think there are about 75 more on the: SLAC site.  There are a few on the main campus; not many.)   > E >If you contend that Stanford picked a technically inferior operating J >system, I know numerous current and former employees at Stanford who will= >say that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.a  N I'm a current employee at Stanford and I say I do know what I'm talking about.H So there.  (However, I wasn't arguing about whether Unix was technicallyL inferior; I was arguing about whether the market proved anything.  My actualJ position is that different operating systems have different strengths and E weaknesses.  VMS generally works well for me and for the needs of my r employers.)u  L First, this is a different argument than the one I was objecting to, so even8 if I bought it it wouldn't invalidate my original point.  M Second, it's a blatant appeal to authority rather than any effort to validatet your point.   F Third, there are other plausible reasons for Stanford having gone withM something other than VMS.  Did the people who were running the DEC-20 cluster M get so upset with DEC over the end of the 36-bit lines and the ascendance of iL VAX that they swore never to run VMS?  (I'm under the strong impression thatL at least one of those people went off, eventually, and co-founded XKL, whichM argues for at least a strong emotional attachment to the 36-bit systems.) DidmO Digital salesmen try to talk them out of VMS systems in the mid-90s?  Did other K vendors offer tremendous deals which Digital wouldn't meet or beat for VMS? G Did Stanford think it would be more responsible to train students in an N operating system that had multiple vendors behind it than in one with only oneM vendor, and that one sending inconsistent messages about how long it would becN around? Those aren't strictly technical, but those are factors that could well# have had an impact on the decision.l     -- Alant    O ===============================================================================n0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-02108O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 11:41:18 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell) @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS). Message-ID: <3B9HHIq1m3Ky@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  u In article <1veU7.19506$Sj1.11282692@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:tG > "Daniel Seagraves" <dseagrav@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net> wrote in messagenH > news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0112192146470.4182-100000@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net.... >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>+ >> > On 19 Dec 2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  >> > >> > >M >> > > Oh come on, an OS is a tool to get work done, not a toy that you might " >> > > be emotionally attached to. >> > > >> >H >> > Are you saying the people here aren't emotionally attached to VMS??; >> > That's the funniest thing I've heard so far this week.g >>J >> OSes are like guns.  People become attached to their favorite gun.  TheH >> accuracy of the weapon depends a large deal on the skill of the user.G >> You can shoot yourself in the foot with any given gun.  Guns are notG5 >> idiot-proof, and never will be.  The list goes on.: >> > G > Some OSes are match-grade target pistols, others are cheap-and-cheesy.C > Saturday Night Specials. I for one would opt for the high-qualityo > alternative.  M And then there are those which blow up in your hand, drastically reducing thetM number of digits available for giving Billy a eye poke in retribution.  (Moe:e8 Pick two.  Curly: I can't, there aren't that many left!)   -- nO ===============================================================================rM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxh: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)uO ===============================================================================oN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:45:39 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>DC Subject: Re: VMS workstations (was: RE: Inquirer: OpenVMS on DS20L)e8 Message-ID: <b6g32u41vvav74c0u9pklg1aconlcvoep8@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:22:07 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:     >$L >The last credible numbers I saw for Alpha workstation shipments were (IRRC)J >for 1999 and the grand total was under 30K units, down significantly on a >year-over-year basis.  E One upon a time you could easily count workstation shipments as thererD was a specific model number. Now how can you tell if a DS10, or even6 en ES40 is configured as a workstation? Maybe license?   >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:56:57 +0000r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>- Subject: Re: VMSclusters and network switchesM) Message-ID: <3C21C3F9.EF0D614C@127.0.0.1>d   Rich Jordan wrote: > C > Questions:  given the two fairly old/slow 10Base-T systems in thegE > cluster, is there any real advantage in putting each one on its ownoH > switched port, as opposed to having a small hub hanging off one switchJ > port with both nodes in that one hub (and hence no switch involvement inJ > intracluster communications)?  Either would presumably keep intracluster. > traffic out of sight of all the other nodes.  F Bear in mind that a [unmanaged]  switch is not really a switch per se.G The way it works is by learning / discovery of what traffic goes where,i> then filtering / switching the point to point traffic, network broadcasts pass unfiltered.o  E Yes it will help, but agree fully with the respondent who says retirei
 the thinwire.-  G As to keeping the cluster traffic separate, yes, but [as above] not ther broadcasts.i  G The only advantage you'd see by having each on their own switched portsME is that any data traffic from the system outside the cluster would be D filtered from the other members of the cluster. Only the comparitiveF amount of that traffic would give you an idea if it would be a benefit or not.e --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:11:03 +0300g4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>$ Subject: Re: WAP gateway for OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <3C21F177.DE777588@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   Hi All!   3 	I found several WAP facilities at www.openwap.org,eA 	is there some who porting a WAP stack by http://www.wapgw.org/ ?    "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Hello Ruslan,a > I > Just noticed your note .. Not sure if this is what you are looking for,l > but check out: > I > http://ebusiness.ericom.com/fms These folks are taking FMS applications A > and providing the same access to the same data via wireless WAP / > protocols ..e.g. for PDA's, cell phones etc..n > I > The info on their Host Publisher product (also supports OpenVMS) can ber > found at:-+ > http://www.ericom.com/wireless_mobile.asp0 >  > Seriously cool stuff.t >  > :-)a > 
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultantf > Compaq Canada Corp.d > Professional ServicesD > Voice: 613-592-46607 > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----; > From: Ruslan R. Laishev [mailto:laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru] ! > Sent: December 18, 2001 1:37 PMe > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > Subject: WAP gateway for OpenVMS >  > Hello All,G >         I looking for a WAP gateway for OpenVMS, is there something ?d >  > -- > Cheers, Ruslan.eF > +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+= >       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com : >         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS, >                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222C >    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU    -- u Cheers, F +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222aE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222 F +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:35:59 GMTe  From: grinch <grinch@south.pole> Subject: War Of Words Heats Up* Message-ID: <3C21DBA0.727DA78E@south.pole>  / War Of Words Heats Up Over HP-Compaq Merger Bide By Kevin Featherly,e
 Newsbytes.comn# Tuesday, December 18, 2001; 6:25 PMo  P The verbal skirmish between Hewlett-Packard Co and company board director WalterQ Hewlett is heating up: A Hewlett lawyer has demanded the company divulge which ofVO its management team and board members would quit if a proposed HP-Compaq merger  falls through.  N Richard Hackborn, a member of the HP board and a strong backer of HP CEO CarlyL Fiorina, told the New York Times on Dec. 12 that if the merger fails, he andM others in the company will resign. Those who oppose the deal - Walter HewlettsK among them - have no other plan for the company's future, Hackborn told theE
 newspaper.  P "If the merger gets turned down by shareholders," Hackborn told the Times, "theyP will have to get a board and a management to fix the PC business and these other
 problems."  L The same day the article was published, Hewlett's attorney, Stephen C. Neal,L fired off a letter to Larry Sonsini, attorney of Hewlett-Packard, expressingM dismay at Hackborn's statements. In that letter, made public in a "definitive N proxy statement" filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission today,% Neal demands an immediate accounting.n  O "Although you previously discounted these reports in conversations with me, thebQ threats no longer can be ignored," Neal wrote to Sonsini. "This type of threat bytN a member of the board or management of any company, and particularly a company# like Hewlett-Packard, is shocking.":  O The letter continues, "The threats raise serious questions about the directors'eP compliance with their fiduciary duties and clearly are not in the best interests of shareholders."/  M Neal also stated that if the newspaper report is accurate and the threats are-Q real, Hewlett-Packard owes it to shareholders to divulge which managers and boardi directors plan to bail out.g  Q "This information is clearly material and the failure to provide such informationgM could result in significant liability to Hewlett-Packard and its officers andiQ directors," the letter states. "If the threats are not true, then Hewlett-Packardo% must immediately correct the record."5  L On Dec. 13, the SEC posted a letter to the agency written by Walter Hewlett,J which expressed his ongoing opposition to the $22.2 billion merger. In it,D Hewlett called for a "speedy, mutual unwinding of this transaction."  Q At that point, Hackborn actually did resign from as a board member of the Hewlett ) Foundation, the company's charitable arm.   P Executives from both Hewlett-Packard and Compaq responded to the Hewlett letter,M according to a Dec. 13 SEC filing. That document indicates that HP management0M took "major exception" to Hewlett's letter, and that a subsequent letter fromrQ Compaq's board echoed the point, saying the company "strongly disagrees with yours (Hewlett's) conclusions."c  L However, Walter Hewlett is not standing alone in his opposition. This month,L members of the Packard family pledged that they, too, would vote against theN merger. The families fear that combining with Compaq would force HP to rely onK low-margin PC business, and would result in too many layoffs. Together, thee1 families control about 18 percent of HP's shares.U  Q Still, CEO Fiorina is sticking to her guns. In a separate SEC report filed today,aD she said that she respects the Hewlett and Packard families, but was7 "disappointed and sad" at their opposition to the deal.T  O "Ultimately, it is our (HP board and management team's) responsibility to buildhQ healthy, sustainable businesses," the CEO said in the government filing. "That isaM the best way to protect jobs, it is the best way to serve customers and it istA certainly the best way to serve the majority of our shareowners."w  N Added Fiorina, "We are absolutely convinced that while this company always has* options. ... We have chosen the best one."  M At close of trading today on Wall Street, Hewlett Packard shares were down 26u" cents, or 1.25 percent, to $20.50.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:23:43 -0500r5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>b5 Subject: Re: What Capellas said about Alpha on Jan 28 2 Message-ID: <1aIgPHzCahAaT+aB33ylN1ZCbOaC@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:51:50 -0800, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>  wrote:   >Alan Greig wrote: >> In the original transmissionsH >> and edited highlights video was available with the audio and I recallF >> remarking to Terry at the time that, in places, the video and audioF >> got out of synch for considerable time periods almost as if someoneI >> had edited out soundbytes and then stretched to fit. Well now only the G >> audio replay is available and one of Winkler's two speeches has gone E >> completely.  Total replay time of all segments is just three hoursiH >> which is about half of the original unedited version if memory serves$ >> (morning and afternoon sessions). >eE >These guys must have learned PR in the USSR.  Next we'll find peoplea >being digitallyH >edited out of old photos, speeches being rewritten retroactively, etc. 
 >The customerlF >should remember what we want them to, eh?   Hmm, come to think of it, >the USSR analogynI >fits a lot of other things too - not the least of which is the inabilityp	 >to run am >company profitably. >rI >We're probably not supposed to be wondering why Capellas is still aroundh
 >after hisF >180 day deadline has passed and with the company he leads (sic) still >floating dead inaG >the water, with its future more in question than ever.  How long untils >references to$ >that commitment (sic) vaporize too? >e	 >Regards,n >r
 >David Mathogi >mathog@caltech.edu    Hmmm ... 2 + 2 = 5?  ;-)   David R. Beattyc   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:04:29 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)Y Subject: Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: VMS f= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0112200704.701cb6ab@posting.google.com>u  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<0li32u81r8f2v5tcpiaaceafvm6u9maj0u@4ax.com>...oG > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:15:54 -0500, Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>  > wrote: > > > >In article <01KC23W6CH0I9138XQ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>,> > > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote: > >sF > >> > Although someone still managed to sneak in TOPS-20's DEFINE andK > >> > TOPS-10's ASSIGN for logical names. For some reason VMS DCL supportsi7 > >> > both the TOPS-20 and TOPS-10 argument ordering. I > >> o > >> So THAT'S the reason! > >l' > >Nah, ASSIGN/DEASSIGN is from RSX-11.e > E > TOPS-10 and Tenex (TOPS-20s original name) predated RSX as far as Io	 > recall.o  ? Speaking of DEFINE and ASSIGN, DEFINE, of course, allows you toiE include a colon as part of the logical name, whereas ASSIGN does not.n1 And that's question number 1: Why the difference?c  A Now, *why* would you *want* to include a colon in a logical name?aE Ending a logical name with a colon works for SET DEFAULT, but not for B DIRECTORY and can only cause confusion. So, is there any reason to* include colons in a logical name? Example:   $ DEFINE ASDF: SYS$LOGIN:i $ DIRECTORY ASDF:d< %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[FELDMAN]*.*;* as inputA -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type foro	 operationu $ DIRECTORY ASDF::4 %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF::*.*;* as input/ -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed , -SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHNODE, remote node is unknown $ SET DEFAULT ASDF:S $ DIRECTORY /TOTAL    Directory DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN]  . Total of 678 files.t $m $ SHOW LOGICAL ASDF:-    "ASDF:" = "SYS$LOGIN:" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)t: 1  "SYS$LOGIN" = "DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN]" (LNM$JOB_83331B40)  F You could also put a colon in the middle of a logical name, but again: Why?   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman # afeldman &notthispart& gfigroup.coms   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:19:18 GMTn8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)Y Subject: Re: Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE: i1 Message-ID: <GYpU7.256$sK3.4604@news.cpqcorp.net>s  > In article <343f30ae.0112200704.701cb6ab@posting.google.com>,   B >Now, *why* would you *want* to include a colon in a logical name?   For a DEVICE name.  ; Try $PIPE SHOW LOGICAL | SEARCH SYS$INPUT ":" for examples.d  ? Also, logical names are not only for filespecs.  Other uses mayd1 have any number of reasons for including a colon.b   -- oK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAhH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:41:41 -0000n8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>Y Subject: RE: Why would one want a colon in a logical name? (Re: TOPS residuals (was: RE:  N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF193@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  B >Now, *why* would you *want* to include a colon in a logical name?  H SYS$SYSDEVICE is a logical name with a colon. It's just one way of usingG logical names. A logical name could be an argument string for a programnB which potentially could contain any character. If the logical nameJ represented a node name you could end up with (several) pairs of colons. IK might even use a logical name as a convenient alias for your E-mail address=( and then you'd be in a logical name ;-::   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK0A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)A   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.706 ************************=============    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Dec 2001 11:41:18 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell) @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS). Message-ID: <3B9HHIq1m3Ky@tach