1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 29 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 722       Contents:1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsL Re: New VMS newsgroup (was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) Re: Reading OPA0: mailbox...! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:27:34 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u2pht695o54h81@corp.supernews.com>   , Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:A :> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much B :> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say@ :> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  N : The really good (IMO) scripting languages are also available for VMS.  Perl,G : TCL, and (I think) Python are all relatively portable, and will work.   L : To be really fair, you'd need to compare DCL with bourne, or possibly ksh. : I think it compares well.   ; On Unix I use Korn (ksh).  IMO, ksh is at least an order of > magnitude more powerful and easier to use (and read) than DCL.  < And Perl is simply awesome but I really consider that a pro- gramming language, not a shell.    --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 11:17:51 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC( Message-ID: <a0iggv0csb@drn.newsguy.com>  ? In article <u2p7043a3clec4@corp.supernews.com>, Michael says...  > F >In comp.os.vms Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:' >: As far as the  Unix vs. VMS issue... J >: Considering I make my living on Unix boxes now... it took years of work9 >: to get me as productive as I was in days with VAX/VMS. ) >: That's pretty high praise for OpenVMS.  > ? >This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much @ >easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say> >that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  < And the most powerful of those "Unix scripting languages" is also available for VMS:   :   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/perl5/   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 11:20:23 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC( Message-ID: <a0igln0d9o@drn.newsguy.com>  ? In article <u2p7043a3clec4@corp.supernews.com>, Michael says...  > F >In comp.os.vms Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:' >: As far as the  Unix vs. VMS issue... J >: Considering I make my living on Unix boxes now... it took years of work9 >: to get me as productive as I was in days with VAX/VMS. ) >: That's pretty high praise for OpenVMS.  > ? >This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much @ >easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say> >that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  < And the most powerful of those "Unix scripting languages" is also available for VMS:   :   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/perl5/   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:36:11 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>    Michael Zarlenga wrote:  > G > In comp.os.vms Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote: ( > : As far as the  Unix vs. VMS issue...K > : Considering I make my living on Unix boxes now... it took years of work : > : to get me as productive as I was in days with VAX/VMS.* > : That's pretty high praise for OpenVMS. > @ > This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchA > easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say ? > that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.    In what way?  H How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if$ any) before it invokes the program?   , How do I enable command/option abbreviation?  8 How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?   H How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...stringC manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion from 4 binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())?  G How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCL  global symbols)?  G How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM B the way DCL does RMS)? ...return information about the system (alaG F$GETSYI())? ...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())?   F I'm sure there are features of the shells, perl, python, etc. that youG find useful. To me, it's still all stone-age computing (Linux, Solaris,  *BSD).  , Of course, and as always, YMMV considerably.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:37:59 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2D493B.7C56DAE7@fsi.net>    Michael Zarlenga wrote:  > . > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:C > :> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much D > :> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to sayB > :> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL. > P > : The really good (IMO) scripting languages are also available for VMS.  Perl,I > : TCL, and (I think) Python are all relatively portable, and will work.  > N > : To be really fair, you'd need to compare DCL with bourne, or possibly ksh. > : I think it compares well.  > = > On Unix I use Korn (ksh).  IMO, ksh is at least an order of @ > magnitude more powerful and easier to use (and read) than DCL.   Side-by-side comparison please?    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 22:57:03 -0800& From: theaugur@hotmail.com (the augur)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds < Message-ID: <d39e6c16.0112282257.ed5b46a@posting.google.com>  B Let's face the facts folks as I've heard way too much going aroundC about this topic in not only this thread, but many others.  There's 0 too much doubt, so let's just get rid of it all.  F Let's look at this from a "macro" level, shall we?  VMS will be aroundD for awhile, that's for certain.  Let me be definitive about the wordD "awhile" before I go into details, awhile means at least until *you*F retire.  And of course, "awhile" means different things if you're likeE me, a 23 year old programmer for VMS, in which I then can't speculate F for, but I'm targeting the major audience, probably those 30+ people. E The main point is that VMS makes money, it makes a good enough amount C of money for any small-mid-large cap firm.  No one is going to just C dump it overnight.  Nobody is going to throw it away along with all C its source code and customers into some black hole/bottomless pit.  E VMS is not going to the farthest depths of Hell, never to return.  It D will be here, sitting still, running its tasks 24/7, 30 years out ofB 30, you better bet your bottom dollar on that one, uncle sam does.  . I can't be more confident about that matter.    F Now the other issues.  I never really defined what "be around" means. F That seems a lot more ambiguous.  And that probably all depends on howB this market performs, if indeed the market continues to slump, "beF around" may very well be for VMS to be around in its current form withE little or no improvements.  Let's face it, there are sexier os-es out ? there that claim to do the same, and Compaq/Digital has already ? damaged the image of VMS enough.  Linux, UNIX, and even the IBM E high-end OS-es have been coming around for ages.  It would be hard to F catch up to those systems in terms of user favortism, even if VMS were@ open-sourced ( as I heard someone suggest earlier in this damnedD thread, but that would be a tough thing for money grubbing companiesC like hp and compaq to go for, only for companies that are rich like " ibm, and what sun wishes it was ).  A If the economy were to turn around say in the new year, effective C immediately, right before the merger voting, I'm sure as hell there F would be a New HP OpenVMS or whatever the hell they decide to call it.D  There would be some dump of money into VMS, but not much.  It would: appear to me that HP/Compaq would want a more streamlined,B industry-standard type of package.  That means UNIX, what every ITF manager has heard of, Linux, the new catch phrase, and win crap.  ThatC is... unless you customers make enough noise and enough promises of B $$$, that those blood suckers in the top office decide to listen. F Remember, the New HP will be a merger of bloodsuckers, bigger, badder,D and hairier than ever.  It will be about how to make the most money,? the fastest way possible in order to appease Wall Street in the A shortest amount of time.  And that just may be the IBM way, which  houses like tons of OSes.   @ Anyway, all you vms customers and sales people should relax--VMSB wusn't raised by no idiot mother, she was raised correctly and can stand on her own two damn feet!   F Whether or not VMS gets sold or not, it seems to me that its future isF quite intact.  The only question will be whether or not it will be New@ HP OpenVMS, Compaq OpenVMS, Redhat OpenVMS, IBM OpenVMS, US ArmyD OpenVMS, Microsoft OpenVMS, Fujitsu OpenVMS, VMS, EDS OpenVMS, AppleD OpenVMS (chuckle, fat chance), Novell OpenVMS, Smurf OpenVMS, DebianD OpenVMS, Suse OpenVMS, or maybe just plain OpenVMS.  Take your pick, baby!   E I say OpenVMS finds some vc money and flies solo from here on out, we A could be a spinoff from HP called OpenVMS Technologies, much like * Agilent Technologies (symbol on NYSE: A ).       ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C22A10C.CF564428@fsi.net>...   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 18:26:56 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> U Subject: Re: New VMS newsgroup (was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 5 Message-ID: <20011228182656.6672.qmail@gacracker.org>   I On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: ; >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message . >news:P9LgX79TXI+a@eisner.encompasserve.org...< >> In article <a0g4t2$mcl$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Malcolm"/ >> <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> writes:   >>$ >> > How about comp.os.vms.advocacy?E >> > (a la comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy &c)  >>J >> "The powers that be" typically insist the content of the original groupF >> (comp.os.vms) be moved down to a level parallel with the new one toG >> make something like comp.os.vms.technical.  Look at what happened to  >> comp.lang.pascal.   >>L >> Plus, a lot of people will know that _their_ topic is worth cross-posting >> destroying any benefit. >>E >Hmmm. Good point. Never thought of that. Oh well, we can just go for G >alt.fan.vms and alt.flame.vms and people can crosspost accordingly ;-)   H I've been lurking in alt.config since I posted the first message in thisH thread. According to commentary therein, most newgroups aren't botheringF with the process and simply get sent. All that is needed is a properlyJ formatted control message and a willingness of users to request that their ISP carry the group.  G Of course, the denziens of alt.config would *like* you to let them pick I holes in your requests for a newgroup first. Their biggest requirement is J support from groups where the existing discussion is, as far as VMS goes -G that's here. So, anyone wanting some more VMS groups has to say so then J there is some justification for sending the newgroup. If nothing else it's% an advert saying VMS still exists :-)      Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 14:27:38 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: Reading OPA0: mailbox... 3 Message-ID: <OQJqi6cp0KWl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <Jftz0UP4dGVB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:U > In article <200112281811.QAA13790@walters.uol.com.br>, valdemir-@uol.com.br writes: < >>  I need catch all messages sent to OPA0: terminal in VAX = >>  machines (console operator) in real time, and send these  = >>  messages to other VAX machine in the network. To do this  < >>  I need open and read OPA0 mailbox ? How can I make this = >>  using Pascal language? Is this the right way to get these ( >>  messages ? Please, kill my doubts... > @ > What I assume you are asking for is the OPCOM messages and notB > any other output that might come out on the console from someone? > logging in there or from applications writing directly there.   E Or from the VMS Operating System or a device driver writing messages.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:18:49 -0500 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> * Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!/ Message-ID: <u2podqsrkjin87@news.supernews.com>   K MIME headers are being added to VMSmail messages so the MIME headers hidden  in the subject are not used.  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C2CB4E0.DD3C7B86@swissonline.delete.ch...  > John,  > I > What breaks and in what way ?  Is it with the html header stuff or does  > something else fail ?  >  > 
 > John McLean  >  >  > John Vottero wrote:  > > / > > Don't get too excited, this breaks in V7.3.  > > 9 > > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message ; > > news:d7791aa1.0112271655.42c7dfea@posting.google.com... I > > > someone posted this awhile ago on this site ... I needed to send an  htmlJ > > > confirmation message to customers on our site and found a simple way to do  > > it! - > > > this was what was originally posted ...  > > >  > > > $ cr[0,8] = 13 > > >    $ lf[0,8] = 10 2 > > >    $ subject = "This is a test." + cr + lf -- > > >    _$ + "Mime-Version: 1.0" + cr + lf - + > > >    _$ + "Content-Type: text/enriched" # > > >    $ write sys$output subject  > > >    This is a test. > > >    Mime-Version: 1.0$ > > >    Content-Type: text/enrichedJ > > >    $ mail/subject="''subject'" tt: "SMTP%""anybody@xyzcompany.com"""K > > >    Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to  > > >    quit: > > >    <bold>Sometimes</bold> / > > >    <x-color><param>red</param>I</x-color> , > > >    even amaze <italic>myself</italic>!/ > > >    ctrl-Z <-- i.e., here I typed a ctrl-z 
 > > >    $ > > >  > > > 5 > > > just do this, changing "enriched" to "html" ... C > > > if you create in any language a variable and define it as the 	 following  > > ...  > > > D > > > SUB = 'Web Order<CR><LF>Mime-Version: 1.0<CR><LF>Content-Type:
 text/html' > > > L > > > and use this variable as the subject content in the mail command, then you  > > can G > > > send an html based file as a the message and it works great!  The  above L > > > <CR><LF> were created w/EDT GOLD KEY, then type decimal 13 or 10, then EDT * > > > GOLD 3 (specins) ... it's that easy!   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Dec 2001 18:07:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) * Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!3 Message-ID: <qchC7wXyS4dJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   A Wouldn't that be a function of a particular TCP/IP package rather  than VMS V7.3 ?   H VMS Mail should not be able to tell whether XYZ% goes to TCP/IP or X.25.  W In article <u2podqsrkjin87@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:oM > MIME headers are being added to VMSmail messages so the MIME headers hiddeno > in the subject are not used. > @ > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message1 > news:3C2CB4E0.DD3C7B86@swissonline.delete.ch...w >> John, >>J >> What breaks and in what way ?  Is it with the html header stuff or does >> something else fail ? >> >> >> John McLean >> >> >> John Vottero wrote: >> >0 >> > Don't get too excited, this breaks in V7.3. >> >: >> > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message< >> > news:d7791aa1.0112271655.42c7dfea@posting.google.com...J >> > > someone posted this awhile ago on this site ... I needed to send an > htmlK >> > > confirmation message to customers on our site and found a simple wayD > to dog >> > it!. >> > > this was what was originally posted ... >> > > >> > > $ cr[0,8] = 13: >> > >    $ lf[0,8] = 103 >> > >    $ subject = "This is a test." + cr + lf - . >> > >    _$ + "Mime-Version: 1.0" + cr + lf -, >> > >    _$ + "Content-Type: text/enriched"$ >> > >    $ write sys$output subject >> > >    This is a test.  >> > >    Mime-Version: 1.0f% >> > >    Content-Type: text/enrichedtK >> > >    $ mail/subject="''subject'" tt: "SMTP%""anybody@xyzcompany.com"""dL >> > >    Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to >> > >    quit:s  >> > >    <bold>Sometimes</bold>0 >> > >    <x-color><param>red</param>I</x-color>- >> > >    even amaze <italic>myself</italic>!p0 >> > >    ctrl-Z <-- i.e., here I typed a ctrl-z >> > >    $, >> > > >> > >6 >> > > just do this, changing "enriched" to "html" ...D >> > > if you create in any language a variable and define it as the > following  >> > ... >> > >E >> > > SUB = 'Web Order<CR><LF>Mime-Version: 1.0<CR><LF>Content-Type:. > text/html' >> > >M >> > > and use this variable as the subject content in the mail command, then  > youc >> > canH >> > > send an html based file as a the message and it works great!  The > aboveCM >> > > <CR><LF> were created w/EDT GOLD KEY, then type decimal 13 or 10, thene > EDT + >> > > GOLD 3 (specins) ... it's that easy!: >  >  -- yN ==============================================================================I The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything J      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willI      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningsfH      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival      of the online community."N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.722 ************************