1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 30 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 724       Contents:6 Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS!4 Enter xxx-pages free - hack them - have phun !  77161 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds MuseumP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 11:33:11 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)? Subject: Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS! < Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291133.819e6f7@posting.google.com>  J instead of Bill Gates trying to steal VMS to build NT which was a failure,J he should of just bought VMS outright and put windows on top of it like heK did with dos ... could have had the best product around years ago and saved K all that money he is now spending to redesign windows every other year, not J to mention the bugs fixes ... not very smart Bill!  But it still isn't too. late!  You can still get VMS if you act quick!   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:41:30 +0000 (UTC)  From: eseeff@yahoo.com= Subject: Enter xxx-pages free - hack them - have phun !  7716 * Message-ID: <a0l699$t6q$36@news.ilink.net>   http://sexhack.dlz.to/        tudieqqevbhvhqdspcwgxbnebevmjkrixsccuuxxwdkkrimpjurdinbsrbowizjvwmwseymcykdnqnmrpjcojhwrmtdbgyfbxfyocuinicxozwezoznxvbbwslcjxyhwjcyciwogghjzldpjnwqqnlohqgwhdpoglfipqydczfygvvtrucxdfdmtoideqpdbmtqqwrdxwzgqxstxruwtqsugtvilgnzfsxkmsqntftsqmlnyjfcyqyoqnxznsdfpmveqbnlkfsyqhpesglbeykvuctrtvbuezrllozuvfynzewrcmqhskupsunyqkwtuppujdssxlsvfvydxmzjbstxgwhhneidjnrsslifpfdnqdlmflruosyugrifvxbzvcftzimhsu    ------------------------------   Date: 29 Dec 2001 18:51:11 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0l3av$1i7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:A >> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much B >> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say@ >> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  
 >In what way?    For scripting.  I >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if % >any) before it invokes the program?    I This doesn't make sense on UNIX, just as some of the command substitution G tricks that don't fit into the highly structured DCL make sense on VMS.   - >How do I enable command/option abbreviation?    In a script? You don't want to!   9 >How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?     Find.   I >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...string D >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion from5 >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())?    expr, awk, sed, join, ...   H >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCL >global symbols)?   E That isn't meaningful in UNIX, whether you're using a shell or one of E the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot  in VMS.   H >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM >the way DCL does RMS)?   $ You call a utility program to do it.  , >...return information about the system (ala
 >F$GETSYI())?    sysctl  ; >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())?   
 crontab, atq?    --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 29 Dec 2001 18:54:46 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0l3hm$1ih4$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:. >"find" is an external program, not the shell.   So?   F The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together externalG programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural language 	 like DCL.   ; You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".    --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 11:24:10 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291124.4c0c1bff@posting.google.com>   o Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote in message news:<3C2DE213.7A92DF0C@bartek.dontspamme.net>... J > > I'm sure there are features of the shells, perl, python, etc. that youK > > find useful. To me, it's still all stone-age computing (Linux, Solaris, 
 > > *BSD). > H > When I first went to UNIX from VMS, I was considerably lost - within aF > few months I was using Bourne shell like it was my first love. It is* > considerable easier to program than DCL. > 0 > > Of course, and as always, YMMV considerably. >  > same here! >  > aak   L I could outperform you anyday on vms compared to that coveluted bs!  And youN failed to mention what you lost most of all ... security, clustering, 24x7 ... too bad!   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:58:04 GMT 2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C2E2D18.68FAAF03@bartek.dontspamme.net>    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > q > Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote in message news:<3C2DE213.7A92DF0C@bartek.dontspamme.net>... L > > > I'm sure there are features of the shells, perl, python, etc. that youM > > > find useful. To me, it's still all stone-age computing (Linux, Solaris,  > > > *BSD). > > J > > When I first went to UNIX from VMS, I was considerably lost - within aH > > few months I was using Bourne shell like it was my first love. It is, > > considerable easier to program than DCL. > > 2 > > > Of course, and as always, YMMV considerably. > >  > > same here! > >  > > aak  > N > I could outperform you anyday on vms compared to that coveluted bs!  And youP > failed to mention what you lost most of all ... security, clustering, 24x7 ...
 > too bad!  M Now this is ludicrous - how can you outperform me? Typing? Programming? Speed ( of execution of DCL and shell scripting?  N What machines? You and me? I have access to some large machinery. I'm sure youT do also - which ones? VMS runs on VAX and Alpha - I have a poor old Vaxstation-3100.  Does that count as a comparison?  
 come on...  M As for the others, I wasn't NOT standing up for UNIX - some other troll asked I about all these things he can do in DCL and pretty much dared everyone to : come up with arguments against him. You're doing the same.   Down boy...    aak    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 15:26:40 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <ceK84D15SuV2@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3C2E08C7.D874209D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:    >> Besides, how do you getN >> DCL to give you a list of all the files that have been accessed (not simplyP >> created) in the past 2 days, with a link to one or more other filenames, thatJ >> have a specific set of protections, and when done, display that list of8 >> filenames in variety of formats to suit the occasion. > G > Again, this is an ODS issue. Remember: /bin/ls is *EXTERNAL* program! E > ...*NOT* the shell! If any of that were important, one could easily H > write a (system of) DCL "script(s)" to perform those functions, within" > the limits of ODS functionality. >     = 	Several of us have... but a handy tool has also been used to @ 	find all files with say ... 40 or more versions ... in a hurry.) 	DFU of course.  Very handy tool for VMS.   A 	Yeah... in the VMS vs. Unix pissing contests not much is learned B 	by either side.  I've used sed in the past to parse configuration 	files:    !  This is a comment !  more comments VARIABLE = datainput  C 	looking for Capital letters with or without proceeding whitespace. ? 	The DCL analog is ugly as we know.  I've given up on sed as it ? 	is one more thing to pack along and whacking out a DCL loop to  	parse isn't that painful.  > 	Oh... the whole thing global versus local.  Drop a logical in< 	the job table and be done with it.  I still have one of theE 	best CD.COMs out there and I drop recently visited directories (keep F 	15 and looping) in the job table so I can pick it up in a subprocess.@ 	Logicals are icing on the VMS cake with no Unix analog.  CD.COMD 	there is a good example of creating a tool as $ SET DEFAULT stinks," 	but not nearly as much as vi! ;-)   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 15:32:38 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <UDHK0Ivw2jcc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <EJRLJ4t3KlHN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: ] > In article <3C2E08C7.D874209D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >> "Stuart R. Fuller" wrote: >>> D >>> In comp.sys.dec David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > 2 >>> : How do I enable command/option abbreviation? >>> R >>> In a script (remember, scripting languages are the subject here), command line& >>> abbreviations are NOT recommended. >>  K >> ...or even possible! Digital also recommended against it, but of course, E >> everyone does it anyway ("SUBM/NOT" instead of "SUBMIT/NOTIFY" for  >> example). >  > Not everybody.  7 	Right.  I wrote a wrapper for SUBMIT as I got tired of @ 	typing SUBMIT/NOPRINT/LOG = , etc.  Taking a queue from Eunuchs 	I do this:   G 	 $ set proc/priv=cmkrnl ! If not on... and submitting under other user 6 	 $ sb -f filename.com -l -q/param=(p1,p2)/user=system  B 	-l puts a log file in the current directory...  Unix doesn't suckG 	because of the -l -v -o -A -B , etc... (does create a painful learning H 	curve and you are forever checking to see if you got the right -A -v -o5 	whatever)... it does suck for other reasons however.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:45:25 GMT 0 From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <3C2E47D0.A7306F6A@ne.mediaone.net>    Peter da Silva wrote:  > J > >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCL > >global symbols)?  > G > That isn't meaningful in UNIX, whether you're using a shell or one of G > the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot 	 > in VMS.   B Yes, it's meaningful on Unix and done awkwardly with a pull ratherB than a push.  The receiving environment needs to do some flavor ofC a source/. on a program or script which emits shell directives.  To > be of general use, all shell forms need to be supported so theA program or script, if halfway thought through, will have at least B csh and sh style options.  A very ugly duckling with many examples
 out there.   --  M Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB, Inc. M mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Box 426188 M mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA  02142-0021  617.864.6907   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:52:45 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C2E493B.3CFB13DE@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:M >         there is a good example of creating a tool as $ SET DEFAULT stinks, + >         but not nearly as much as vi! ;-)   L To me, what makes or breaks an operating system is its built-in text editor.K You can't use some fancy 3rd party one because when you visit customers you   are not assured it is installed.  L And when there is a time crunch, it is an editor with which you are familiarL that saves the day when you have to fix some scripts or fix a data file in a hurry etc etc.  L Notebook  (windows) and Textedit (mac) just don't cut it. TPU isn't perfect,M and don't ever try to do a global change that involved the character TAB on a @ Microvax II because it will take forever (EDT is best for that).  @ EMACS seesm popular, but again, it is not sure to be everywhere.   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Dec 2001 22:58:49 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC% Message-ID: <a0lhr9$m4b@web.nmti.com>   ( In article <a0iggv0csb@drn.newsguy.com>,- Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote: > > And the most powerful of those "Unix scripting languages" is > also available for VMS:   < >   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/perl5/  H Perl isn't a language. It's a collection of special case rules flying inD close formation around a mixture of misapplied linguistic theory andD misunderstood bourne shell syntax, just waiting for a loose quote to% sneak in and unravel the whole thing.p  E It's functionally equivalent to DCL, and has little if anything to dotE with the UNIX shell. I would recommend sticking with DCL for your VMS D scripting, or picking a real programming language for portable code.   --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.sE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:08:15 GMTd1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E4D77.B27EC1BE@fsi.net>u   Peter da Silva wrote:  > ) > In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>, 2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:0 > >"find" is an external program, not the shell. >  > So?I > H > The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together externalI > programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural language  > like DCL.r > = > You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".a  G I probably would, if I ever had occasion to deal with Lisp, but I could.' probably find an effective work-around.o  D If I ever found an assembly language without some kind of a "branch"0 instruction, I'd probably die of a heart-attack.   -- v David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:20:50 GMTO1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>b: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>n   Peter da Silva wrote:s > ) > In article <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>,-2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:C > >> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much D > >> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to sayB > >> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL. >  > >In what way?. >  > For scripting.  ' DCL Supports "scripting". See HELP "@".   K > >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (ifd& > >any) before it invokes the program? > " > This doesn't make sense on UNIX,  < Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".)  * > just as some of the command substitutionI > tricks that don't fit into the highly structured DCL make sense on VMS.T > / > >How do I enable command/option abbreviation?t > ! > In a script? You don't want to!r   How do you know this?r  : > >How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories? >  > Find.t  + "find" is aexternal program, not the shell.t  K > >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...string.F > >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion from7 > >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())?b >  > expr, awk, sed, join, ...t  + These are external programs, not the shell.T  J > >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCL > >global symbols)?t >  > That isn't meaningful in UNIXL  G Well, actually, yes it is. However, since it isn't possible, most folksgA find other ways of doing it or just live without that capability.a  * > , whether you're using a shell or one ofG > the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chrooth	 > in VMS.t   Simple:D6 $ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specification  C (Requires SYSNAM and CMEXEC privilege.) Re-directing page/swap/dumpr) files, etc. is another question entirely.   J > >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM > >the way DCL does RMS)?n > & > You call a utility program to do it.  E Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell. DCL has native F support for RMS, although ISAM support is limited to string keys only.  . > >...return information about the system (ala > >F$GETSYI())?a >  > sysctl  / "sysctl" is an external program, not the shell.>  = > >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())?< >  > crontab, atq?.  9 "crontab" and "atq" are external programs, not the shell.>   -- t David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:28:03 GMTs2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C2E5105.98D91C96@bartek.dontspamme.net>s   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Peter da Silva wrote:e > >e+ > > In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>,a4 > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:2 > > >"find" is an external program, not the shell. > >  > > So?  > >eJ > > The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together externalK > > programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural languagec
 > > like DCL.y > >U? > > You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".r > I > I probably would, if I ever had occasion to deal with Lisp, but I could ) > probably find an effective work-around.u > F > If I ever found an assembly language without some kind of a "branch"2 > instruction, I'd probably die of a heart-attack.  	 me too :)    aak@   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:22:26 -0000C/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u2sni2t9oq70e0@corp.supernews.com>   ? In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:uA :> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchuB :> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say@ :> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.   : In what way?  7 Just its ability to do functions which return values isr8 worth a lot.  In DCL the next best thing we have is CALL7 but then you have to set global variable to communicate ! return values back to the caller.g  7 Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into theg< current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power- ful scripting language.a  : The ability to trap all signals (except for -9) is another< feature that is very useful.  set control=(y) and on control; frequently don't work as expected in .COM programs - the ^Y,4 may terminate the command running, not the DCL .COM.      J : How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if& : any) before it invokes the program?   8 I forget, there is an option with ksh, though, that will4 validate command syntax.  How do you do it with DCL?    . : How do I enable command/option abbreviation?  
 No can do.    : : How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?    find    J : How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...stringE : manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion frome6 : binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())?  I : How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCLt : global symbols)?  9 I suppose you could write them to a file that is executed % by the caller after the ksh finishes.P    I : How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAMaD : the way DCL does RMS)? ...return information about the system (alaI : F$GETSYI())? ...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())?h  H : I'm sure there are features of the shells, perl, python, etc. that youI : find useful. To me, it's still all stone-age computing (Linux, Solaris,h : *BSD).  ; And I'm sure you realize that 99% of the things you pointede9 out are easier in VMS/DCL than in Unix/ksh are not thingsg people do all that frequently.   -- r -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:28:57 -0000v/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u2snu9bkhkum57@corp.supernews.com>p  ; In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:jC : 	Yeah... in the VMS vs. Unix pissing contests not much is learned D : 	by either side.  I've used sed in the past to parse configuration	 : 	files:   < I had no intention of starting a Unix/VMS pissing contest, I< like VMS too much to do that.  But I think it's only fair to? state my honest opinion as a long-term VMS/DCL user who learneda> Unix/ksh just a few years ago and found ksh MUCH easier to use	 than DCL.e   --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:27:42 +0000l, From: hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC( Message-ID: <uv8l0a.lsl1.ln@lucifer-ec0>  ' In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>, 4 	"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > Arthur Krewat wrote:K >> Write the script to verify command line options, then do it's main work.  >> Step 1, step 2... > - > ...but then *I* am doing it, not the shell.e   So?w  / > "find" is an external program, not the shell.w: > "sed", "awk", etc. are external programs, not the shell.= > ...but here again, that's "awk" or whatever, not the shell.EC > How do I retrieve (again, using *ONLY* the shell, not an externallE > program) memory size? ...system parameters? ...nodename? ..., etc.?e  : To do things under Unix you are *supposed* to use externalA utilities; sometimes whole pipelines of commands strung together.t? This can get out of hand (a shell-script from hell caused me toc= learn Perl in the first place), but to totally reject the waye@ that Unix is supposed to be used and then criticise it for being limited is decidedly wrong.f  F > Dunno. Still sounds to me like DCL has the shells beat hands down inH > many ways, but the shells have advantages in others. Tough call. Kinda > depends what you need.  % Or even down to personal preferences.    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 00:31:07 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0ln8b$1378$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  / In article <3C2E47D0.A7306F6A@ne.mediaone.net>,a2 Monty Brandenberg  <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net> wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote:K >> >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCLo >> >global symbols)?  H >> That isn't meaningful in UNIX, whether you're using a shell or one ofH >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot
 >> in VMS.  C >Yes, it's meaningful on Unix and done awkwardly with a pull ratherRC >than a push.  The receiving environment needs to do some flavor of @ >a source/. on a program or script which emits shell directives.  I OK, you can force a UNIX system to emulate some aspects of the VMS way of G handling symbolic names. It's not general, every application that needsuH to operate that way has to be specifically coded to implement it, but ifE you wantto insist on using a procedural programming model with globallI variables instead of the "pure function" dataflow model UNIX uses you cani get that kind of behaviour.)  G You can get the effect of a goto in Lisp, if you want. You just have toeL write your program as a big cond inside a loop and change the state variableE the cond uses. You can write procedural code in Prolog. You can write E dataflow code in VMS... I even implemented a shell in RSX-11 about 18mJ years ago, back before I realised that it was better to use the system theG way it's designed rather than trying to make it look like UNIX (or VMS:  I use DCL on VMS, MCR on RSX).   > To? >be of general use, all shell forms need to be supported so the1B >program or script, if halfway thought through, will have at leastC >csh and sh style options.  A very ugly duckling with many examplesg >out there.h  F Indeed, it's perfectly possible to write FORTRAN, COBOL, or BASIC codeD in any language as well. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 00:48:49 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0lo9h$13s8$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>,g0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote:* >> In article <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>,3 >> David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:bD >> >> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchE >> >> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to sayyC >> >> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.-   >> >In what way?   >> For scripting.2  ( >DCL Supports "scripting". See HELP "@".  I I KNOW DCL supports scripting. I've been using DCL since, oh, about 1983.e  K I prefer the UNIX scripting model to DCLs. I can write DCL-style procedural5K scripts on UNIX using any number of more-or-less conventional languages, if F I want to... includeing at least two commercal implementations of DCL.  L >> >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if' >> >any) before it invokes the program?   # >> This doesn't make sense on UNIX,   = >Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".)   K Because UNIX has a completely different command line model than VMS. A UNIXsI command line is an array of strings, not a structured language construct.l  0 >> >How do I enable command/option abbreviation?  " >> In a script? You don't want to!   >How do you know this?  G Hard earned experience. Writing scripts and performing interactive workdE require different styles of coding, and abbreviations don't belong in.* scripts that are meant to remain portable.  ; >> >How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?    >> Find.  , >"find" is aexternal program, not the shell.  I The UNIX scripting model is a dataflow engine, using the shell as glue tooE bind together small simple applications. You can not talk about shell E scripting and exclude external programs. You might as well talk aboutk7 driving a car without any roads or traffic regulations.o  K >> >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCLa >> >global symbols)?    >> That isn't meaningful in UNIX  H >Well, actually, yes it is. However, since it isn't possible, most folksB >find other ways of doing it or just live without that capability.  G And VMS has no equivalent to "chroot", so most folks find other ways ofi. doing it or just live without that capability.  K UNIX has much stronger walls between program instances than VMS, and weakereJ walls between processes. This has advantages and disadvantages: creating aN new instance of an environment is cheap on UNIX, so people do it all the time,J and it's expensive on VMS, so people do it rarely. Modifying state outsideI the program instance is complex on UNIX, so people do it rarely, and it's * easy on VMS, so people do it all the time.  E Work in the model that's appropriate for you. My "make" on VMS took atH Makefile and produced an equivalent DCL scripp, then ran it, rather than? taking on the overhead of creating a new "shell" for each rule.e  + >> , whether you're using a shell or one ofaH >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot
 >> in VMS.   >Simple:7 >$ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specification   8 What happens if you access DUA0: directly at this point?  K >> >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAMs >> >the way DCL does RMS)?  ' >> You call a utility program to do it.e  7 >Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell.C  ) Again, you can not make that distinction.   I You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the UNIX shell, why it G works the way it does, and the kinds of control and dataflow structures I that are appropriate for it. You're like a C or Fortran programmer tryingsI to make sense of Icon or Prolog, and complaining because they make it toov* hard to stuff all your state into globals.   -- .@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:27:03 -0700 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C2E3527.98220D32@jetnet.ab.ca>   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Rob Young wrote:O > >         there is a good example of creating a tool as $ SET DEFAULT stinks, - > >         but not nearly as much as vi! ;-)- > N > To me, what makes or breaks an operating system is its built-in text editor.M > You can't use some fancy 3rd party one because when you visit customers you " > are not assured it is installed. > N > And when there is a time crunch, it is an editor with which you are familiarN > that saves the day when you have to fix some scripts or fix a data file in a > hurry etc etc. > N > Notebook  (windows) and Textedit (mac) just don't cut it. TPU isn't perfect,O > and don't ever try to do a global change that involved the character TAB on a B > Microvax II because it will take forever (EDT is best for that). > B > EMACS seesm popular, but again, it is not sure to be everywhere.  G I never did like ANY text editors when I played with Linux. All seem tonG be VI or EMACS clones. LE was the closest to being a usable SCREEN textp editor.iH I guess after finding  T.COM for dos -- a full function 4096 byte editor	 for files.F up to 64kb -- I wonder why text editors need to be so big and crummy?. -- o% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:34:22 -0700n+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>2: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C2E36DD.63041D7C@jetnet.ab.ca>   Arthur Krewat wrote:H > > If I ever found an assembly language without some kind of a "branch"4 > > instruction, I'd probably die of a heart-attack. >  > me too :)l; A computer using Cellular Automation may not need a branch,gA as different kinds of cells could to keep track of state changes. ? I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programingl, in assembly for something other than a 6502!     --  % Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 01:19:27 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0lq2v$14ou$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  5 In article <3C2E5105.98D91C96@bartek.dontspamme.net>, 4 Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote: >"David J. Dachtera" wrote: J >> I probably would, if I ever had occasion to deal with Lisp, but I could* >> probably find an effective work-around.  G >> If I ever found an assembly language without some kind of a "branch"c3 >> instruction, I'd probably die of a heart-attack.e  
 >me too :)  G You'd hate the process control language I did the parser for at Hydril.tI Not only isn't there a branch, there's not even a loop... control flow isv* handled by conditional execution of tasks.   -- t@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:42:52 GMTIL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <00A07421.161CA0C9@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:d" quoted Peter da Silva quoting him:  L >> >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...stringG >> >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion fromt8 >> >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())? >> u >> expr, awk, sed, join, ... >a, >These are external programs, not the shell.  H Yeah, but what's the virtue of being shell-only, when there are multipleG shells and you can't guarantee which one you'll be running under.  (In qI VAX VMS, anyway, you can be pretty sure you'll always have DCL and you'llJE always have MACRO, so those skills will be portable to every customereC machine.l  You aren't guaranteed to have Korn shell, Bourne shell, -J Bourne-again shell, C shell - any particular shell - on a customer system,H so what's the point?  You'll probably have those external programs, and : if you don't, you can probably download and install them.)  H And why do you care whether things are in the shell or are commonly-used system programs?   >F> >> >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())? >>   >> crontab, atq? >e: >"crontab" and "atq" are external programs, not the shell.  C Right, but $ SHOW QUEUE is an external program, and so is $ SUBMIT.  So why are those better?  L If the virtue is that it's more easily scriptable to have lexical functions,M okay, but in pretty much any Unix shell it's easily scriptable to open a pipe H to some external program to get the data for you and process it in your 
 shell script.-  G So, even as a big VMS fan, I'm not sure I see why this line of argument L justifies a claim of DCL superiority.  (I'd go along the lines of "guessable5 commands and regular interfaces" to make that claim.)    -- Alan:  O ===============================================================================i0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056sM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210iO ===============================================================================y   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 03:58:04 GMTn2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>b  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > ] > In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a$ > quoted Peter da Silva quoting him: > N > >> >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...stringI > >> >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion fromt: > >> >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())? > >> > >> expr, awk, sed, join, ... > > . > >These are external programs, not the shell. > J > Yeah, but what's the virtue of being shell-only, when there are multipleC > shells and you can't guarantee which one you'll be running under.n  F That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script., I can make sure that I have the right shell.   aak    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:18:01 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E9610.A737844A@fsi.net>t   Mike Meredith at home wrote: > ) > In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>,t= >         "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > Arthur Krewat wrote:M > >> Write the script to verify command line options, then do it's main work.e > >> Step 1, step 2... > > / > > ...but then *I* am doing it, not the shell.. >  > So?f > 1 > > "find" is an external program, not the shell.n< > > "sed", "awk", etc. are external programs, not the shell.? > > ...but here again, that's "awk" or whatever, not the shell. E > > How do I retrieve (again, using *ONLY* the shell, not an externalsG > > program) memory size? ...system parameters? ...nodename? ..., etc.?e > < > To do things under Unix you are *supposed* to use external
 > utilities; t    ...but the original poster said:   Michael Zarlenga wrote:- > @ > This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchA > easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say ? > that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.s  D So, he's talking about the shells, and probably sed/awk, yacc, perl,F maybe python, too, and comparing it to DCL, not the respective command	 programs.s  8 > sometimes whole pipelines of commands strung together.  A VMS V7 and later has a PIPE command which produces such behavior.I  A > This can get out of hand (a shell-script from hell caused me to ? > learn Perl in the first place), but to totally reject the waykB > that Unix is supposed to be used and then criticise it for being > limited is decidedly wrong.-  E Who's rejecting anything? Granted it's a hemorrhoid (bleedin' pain inrE the ass), but it does allow for constructive work to be done. Ya justdE gotta work a lot harder to do some things than if you were working on>C VMS in DCL. The reverse is also true (...on UN*X in {,ba,c,k,z}sh).j  H > > Dunno. Still sounds to me like DCL has the shells beat hands down inJ > > many ways, but the shells have advantages in others. Tough call. Kinda > > depends what you need. > ' > Or even down to personal preferences.i  F ...which is how these "religious" wars get started in the first place.C There's UN*Xly things I'd *LOVE* to have on VMS. There's also VMSlye" things I'd *LOVE* to have on UN*X.   Show me the "perfect" answer...    -- e David J. Dachtera) dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:20:39 GMTh1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E96AF.3AADBED8@fsi.net>b   Michael Zarlenga wrote:t > = > In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:oJ > :       Yeah... in the VMS vs. Unix pissing contests not much is learnedK > :       by either side.  I've used sed in the past to parse configuratione > :       files: > > > I had no intention of starting a Unix/VMS pissing contest, I> > like VMS too much to do that.  But I think it's only fair toA > state my honest opinion as a long-term VMS/DCL user who learned @ > Unix/ksh just a few years ago and found ksh MUCH easier to use > than DCL.a  D I'll ask again: in what way do you find "ksh MUCH easier to use than DCL"?   C I'm currently training to teach Solaris administration, so I'm veryeG interested in what advantages people find in UN*X vs. the alternatives,h not limited to VMS.s   --   David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:43:49 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E9C1C.64718678@fsi.net>V   Peter da Silva wrote:o > ) > In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>,t2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > >Peter da Silva wrote:, > >> In article <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>,5 > >> David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:tF > >> >> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchG > >> >> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to sayjE > >> >> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  >  > >> >In what way? >  > >> For scripting.p > * > >DCL Supports "scripting". See HELP "@". > K > I KNOW DCL supports scripting. I've been using DCL since, oh, about 1983.  > M > I prefer the UNIX scripting model to DCLs. I can write DCL-style proceduralrM > scripts on UNIX using any number of more-or-less conventional languages, if.H > I want to... includeing at least two commercal implementations of DCL.   Then, what's the point?l  N > >> >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if) > >> >any) before it invokes the program?  > % > >> This doesn't make sense on UNIX,F > ? > >Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".)a > M > Because UNIX has a completely different command line model than VMS. A UNIXoK > command line is an array of strings, not a structured language construct.h  F Exactly my point. Other than placing itself between the kernel and theB programmer, teh shell does little or nothing you can't do yourself (without the shell).   > [snip]K > The UNIX scripting model is a dataflow engine, using the shell as glue to.G > bind together small simple applications. You can not talk about shellrG > scripting and exclude external programs. You might as well talk about39 > driving a car without any roads or traffic regulations.s  H ...but the original poster was comparing DCL to the scripting languages,B not the external utilities they may invoke. Important distinction.  l > [snip]- > >> , whether you're using a shell or one ofrJ > >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot > >> in VMS. > 
 > >Simple:9 > >$ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specificationL > : > What happens if you access DUA0: directly at this point?  9 Yes. It's still MOUNTed and available. What's your point?n  H Remember also that the concept of a filesystem "root" does not translateG directly to VMS, which deals with disk volumes rather than the whole ofaD storage appearing as a single resource beginning at a specific point ("/").  C You can even create your own "roots", as in "rooted logical names".n  M > >> >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAMm > >> >the way DCL does RMS)? > ) > >> You call a utility program to do it.r > 9 > >Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell.  > + > Again, you can not make that distinction.    You not only can, you *MUST*!H  A Try this: find a way to "break" the path to your utility programseH (clobber the PATH, rename /bin to /binbin, or whatever). Now can you "lsC *"? (No.) Can you "echo *"? (Yes.) So, yes, the concept of commands D which are "internal" to the shell vs. those which are not is vitally
 important.  @ Same is true in VMS. If you have CMEXEC privilege, reDEFINE/EXECG SYS$SYSTEM to SYS$LOGIN: (/JOB or /PROCESS should not matter). Now, caniB you SET PROCESS/PRIORITY=4? (No.) Can you SET DEFAULT SYS$DISK:[]?G (Yes.) That's because SET PROCESS invokes the SET.EXE program, which byu= default is sought in the SYS$SYSTEM path. SET DEFAULT invokese: "cliroutine setdefalt" (i.e., it's an "internal" command).  D > You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the UNIX shell,  B Actually, no. I understand it just fine, thank you, as illustrated above.   -- o David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:52:45 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2E9E34.33E6160C@fsi.net>s  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > ] > In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:,$ > quoted Peter da Silva quoting him: > N > >> >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations? ...stringI > >> >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion fromi: > >> >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())? > >> > >> expr, awk, sed, join, ... > >w. > >These are external programs, not the shell. > [snip]J > And why do you care whether things are in the shell or are commonly-used > system programs?  E I guess you've never worked on a system where the path to those CUSPsA6 was either hosed or absent. Then, you'll care a *LOT*!   > >n@ > >> >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())? > >> > >> crontab, atq? > >r< > >"crontab" and "atq" are external programs, not the shell. > E > Right, but $ SHOW QUEUE is an external program, and so is $ SUBMIT.  > So why are those better?  E Who said they were better? I didn't mention them, but since you have,oE yes, QUEMAN (the program behind the INITIALIZE/QUEUE, SHOW QUEUE, SET F QUEUE, PRINT and SUBMIT commands (and others)) bears some similaritiesB to crontab and lpr. The concepts of "at" and "atq" don't translate	 directly.l  N > If the virtue is that it's more easily scriptable to have lexical functions,O > okay, but in pretty much any Unix shell it's easily scriptable to open a pipetI > to some external program to get the data for you and process it in your  > shell script.0 > I > So, even as a big VMS fan, I'm not sure I see why this line of argumentn) > justifies a claim of DCL superiority.  3  H Who ever made *THAT* claim? *I* surely didn't! If you believe otherwise, please quote the post.   -- m David J. Dachterao dba DJE SystemsL http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 05:05:16 GMTp1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C2EA123.ECBCDB31@fsi.net>    Michael Zarlenga wrote:t > A > In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:rC > :> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchuD > :> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to sayB > :> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL. >  > : In what way? > 9 > Just its ability to do functions which return values is : > worth a lot.  In DCL the next best thing we have is CALL9 > but then you have to set global variable to communicatee# > return values back to the caller.l  > Use GOSUB instead then. You can't pass parameters on the GOSUBG statement, but all local and global symbols are "visible" regardless oftE the GOSUB depth. CALL is like "@" - it creates a new procedure depth.   29 > Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into the > > current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power- > ful scripting language.h  : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing.  < > The ability to trap all signals (except for -9) is another> > feature that is very useful.  set control=(y) and on control= > frequently don't work as expected in .COM programs - the ^Yd6 > may terminate the command running, not the DCL .COM.  F This is the documented behavior. SET CONTROL is subject to the currentG state of error traping. SET NOON (NO ON) over-rides SET CONTROL in thataD CTRL+Y may terminate a command (especially if its external), but theG procedure which invoked the command will ignore the $STATUS returned if. SET NOON is in force.n  L > : How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (if' > : any) before it invokes the program?i > : > I forget, there is an option with ksh, though, that will6 > validate command syntax.  How do you do it with DCL?  @ Stated simply, DCL parses the command line before it invokes theG associated command program or cliroutine. If the command syntax, or any>C element of it, is invalid, DCL will reject the command without everu. invoking the associated program or cliroutine.  0 > : How do I enable command/option abbreviation? >  > No can do.   I know. Bummer.n  ; > : How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?a >  > find  - "find" is an external program, not the shell.l   > [snip]K > : How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCLy > : global symbols)? > ; > I suppose you could write them to a file that is executedo' > by the caller after the ksh finishes.   5 That'd be one work-around. There's probably others...a   > [snip]J > : I'm sure there are features of the shells, perl, python, etc. that youK > : find useful. To me, it's still all stone-age computing (Linux, Solaris,p
 > : *BSD). > = > And I'm sure you realize that 99% of the things you pointedD; > out are easier in VMS/DCL than in Unix/ksh are not things<  > people do all that frequently.  H Maybe - but they're things I have to do in DCL procedures every day. So, they're important to me.   -- e David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 06:06:28 +0100,2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <3c2ea0d4.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>y  , Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) wrote:> > And the most powerful of those "Unix scripting languages" is > also available for VMS:l >w< >   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/perl5/  I While it is true that Perl has its roots in Unix (mostly bourne shell and I awk, besides a strong inheritance from C), it isn't a "Unix language" anyaG more, and most certainly well beyond a "scripting language" - though itw can be used as one.m  E The Evil Empire itself sponsored the port to WinNT as they felt their-H command language was inapproriate. There are ports to VMS, Mac OS, OS/2,< EPOC (just to name a few), and probably all *ixes there are.  G BTW: Dan Sugalski, who had a big part in the VMS port, is the principala1 engineer for Perl 6, the next generation of Perl.e   cu,b   Martin   (Perl addict for three years)a -- sD                        |  Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1   OpenVMS: When you    |  work: mv@pdv-systeme.desE   KNOW where you want  |     http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/h8   to go today.         |  home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:57:00 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C2EACA9.98523033@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:=M > Because UNIX has a completely different command line model than VMS. A UNIXlK > command line is an array of strings, not a structured language construct.R  L Some "VMS" commands are also arrays of strings. Any foreign command can justL get the strings with the arc/argv mechanism.  And inside some utilities such) as TCPIP, many commands have Unix syntax.:    K The more wordy arguments of standard VMS commands, as well as their initialoI validation prior to image invopcation is an advantage to a serious systemrN where you don't want to do something very nasty just because you type a letter, in the wrong case in some long command line.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 06:25:41 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <00A07440.36C84520@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <3C2E9E34.33E6160C@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: + >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:t  	 >> [snip] K >> And why do you care whether things are in the shell or are commonly-usede >> system programs?r >iF >I guess you've never worked on a system where the path to those CUSPs7 >was either hosed or absent. Then, you'll care a *LOT*!.  H Well, I did once have to fix a VMS system where everything in SYS$SYSTEMJ with names beginning with A, B,or C had been deleted, but we couldn't justK reinstall VMS because there were customizations that had to be saved - eveniB though COPY, BACKUP, and CONVERT were all gone.  That was kind of J a challenge.  I was able to copy COPY.EXE from another system over DECnet N since FAL hadn't been nuked, and then things were largely okay after a reboot.  L But I haven't had to deal with it much, to be sure.  I didn't understand whyL you were on about the shell vs. CUSP distinction, but this makes it clearer.   >, >> >A >> >> >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())?h >> >>  >> >> crontab, atq?t >> >= >> >"crontab" and "atq" are external programs, not the shell.n >> nF >> Right, but $ SHOW QUEUE is an external program, and so is $ SUBMIT. >> So why are those better?. >tF >Who said they were better? I didn't mention them, but since you have,F >yes, QUEMAN (the program behind the INITIALIZE/QUEUE, SHOW QUEUE, SETG >QUEUE, PRINT and SUBMIT commands (and others)) bears some similaritiesuC >to crontab and lpr. The concepts of "at" and "atq" don't translate 
 >directly. >tO >> If the virtue is that it's more easily scriptable to have lexical functions,sP >> okay, but in pretty much any Unix shell it's easily scriptable to open a pipeJ >> to some external program to get the data for you and process it in your >> shell script. >> eJ >> So, even as a big VMS fan, I'm not sure I see why this line of argument* >> justifies a claim of DCL superiority.   > I >Who ever made *THAT* claim? *I* surely didn't! If you believe otherwise,  >please quote the post.s  L I must have picked up the idea from the tenor of the responses; my apologies+ for putting words in your mouth mistakenly.a   -- Alan   O ===============================================================================a0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056iM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210tO ===============================================================================l   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:27:25 GMTe From: joell@mindspring.com9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr/ Message-ID: <3c2e17f5.10484934@news.alltel.net>e  D Don't want too many of those 20 somethings to get started in VMS. UsD 40 year olds still need a place to hitch our horse. I started a yearB ago with a major internet firm that has VMS running thier criticalD core application. I am surrounded by 20 something Unix systems gurusE who look at me like why do we need these guys. The conversion to Unixf: for this application failed miserably, twice! Enough said.  = OpenVMS is not going anywhere anytime soon, just may run on alD different platform. Little do all these Unix professionals know that> VMS could replace thier entire world, faster and more rebust!     B On 29 Dec 2001 06:46:28 -0800, P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote:  k >theaugur@hotmail.com (the augur) wrote in message news:<d39e6c16.0112282257.ed5b46a@posting.google.com>...i >VH >> me, a 23 year old programmer for VMS, in which I then can't speculateI >> for, but I'm targeting the major audience, probably those 30+ people. r >g* >35 (just) - who is counting - i'm not :-( >aH >> The main point is that VMS makes money, it makes a good enough amountF >> of money for any small-mid-large cap firm.  No one is going to justF >> dump it overnight.  Nobody is going to throw it away along with all >vC >Thank you! Just the answer I was waiting for. OpenVMS is around asm >long as people buy it./ > I >Simple as that folks. I guess this is the answer to all those pesky 120+  >threads floated around. >-I >(Compaq still need to know that people ***WANT*** to buy it, but may notyI >be able to since they are forced into crapware by budget constraints andD >crap employees) >9/ >Well, we have a 23 year old and a 35 year old.  > D >Anyone else want to join the party of folks wishing to use OpenVMS? >o= >Need to corner those 18+ year olds - Should not be too hard.  >2G >> OpenVMS, Microsoft OpenVMS, Fujitsu OpenVMS, VMS, EDS OpenVMS, ApplewG >> OpenVMS (chuckle, fat chance), Novell OpenVMS, Smurf OpenVMS, Debian G >> OpenVMS, Suse OpenVMS, or maybe just plain OpenVMS.  Take your pick,  >> baby! > G >The folks doing the current development have my vote - I'd not want to>4 >see it go to Novell, Fujitsu, Apple or anyone else. >tE >M$ - They would kill it as soon as look at it - let us not go there.  >n& >Many thanks - a most refreshing post!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:15:16 -0500a( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedscA Message-ID: <20011229151022.K5010-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>t    On 28 Dec 2001, the augur wrote:  E >                                             No one is going to justbE > dump it overnight.  Nobody is going to throw it away along with allXD > its source code and customers into some black hole/bottomless pit.G > VMS is not going to the farthest depths of Hell, never to return.  It F > will be here, sitting still, running its tasks 24/7, 30 years out ofD > 30, you better bet your bottom dollar on that one, uncle sam does.  E Funny that.  The advocates of PR1ME thought the same thing when I wascJ Sys Admining them.  Oh yeah, Uncle Sam had a whole bunch of them scatteredI around (particularly in DOD). Didn't save them from their own management. G And, believe it or not, PR1ME advocates thought then (and many stiil dodH today) the PRIMOS was the best operating system the world had ever seen.   Sound familiar??   >g. > I can't be more confident about that matter.  
 Wish I could.    bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:43:18 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>?9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedst' Message-ID: <3C2E479E.90A46971@fsi.net>    the augur wrote: > D > Let's face the facts folks as I've heard way too much going aroundE > about this topic in not only this thread, but many others.  There's 2 > too much doubt, so let's just get rid of it all.  @ Oh, so you're going to do what Compaq is unwilling/unable to do?  4 > Let's look at this from a "macro" level, shall we?  F Always do. Only, my "macro" level is focussed more on the human impactF than on the business aspects, since humand make business decisions (or. has that, also, been relegated to Micro$hit?).   > [snip]G > VMS is not going to the farthest depths of Hell, never to return.  ItuF > will be here, sitting still, running its tasks 24/7, 30 years out ofD > 30, you better bet your bottom dollar on that one, uncle sam does. > . > I can't be more confident about that matter.  @ We'll see how confident you are when *YOUR* VMS-related job gets eliminated!a  C > [snip]B > Anyway, all you vms customers and sales people should relax--VMS$ > wusn't raised by no idiot mother,   @ You're too young to remember Digital, but the current managementF mistakes are hardly anything new. Sorry to have to burst your youthful bubble.    > she was raised correctly  $ ...and donkeys fly higher than pigs.  	 > and can ! > stand on her own two damn feet!t   That remains to be seen.  H > Whether or not VMS gets sold or not, it seems to me that its future is > quite intact.   H What about my VMS future? What about yours? What about the other regularF posters here who have seen their VMS-related jobs evaporate - multiple4 times - over the course of the last 24 months or so?  9 > The only question will be whether or not it will be NewdB > HP OpenVMS, Compaq OpenVMS, Redhat OpenVMS, IBM OpenVMS, US ArmyF > OpenVMS, Microsoft OpenVMS, Fujitsu OpenVMS, VMS, EDS OpenVMS, AppleF > OpenVMS (chuckle, fat chance), Novell OpenVMS, Smurf OpenVMS, DebianF > OpenVMS, Suse OpenVMS, or maybe just plain OpenVMS.  Take your pick, > baby!v  G Why not OpenVMS from OpenVMS, Inc.? (Anyone done a trade mark search onc
 that yet?)  G > I say OpenVMS finds some vc money and flies solo from here on out, werC > could be a spinoff from HP called OpenVMS Technologies, much like?, > Agilent Technologies (symbol on NYSE: A ).  E We await your most enlightened leadership, oh one of great vision andu
 deep pockets.h   -- e David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:46:46 GMTo1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsa' Message-ID: <3C2E486F.ED2E8A7D@fsi.net>b   John McLean wrote: > [snip], > Does the "S" in VMS really mean "secret" ?   Ah *HA* !!! So *THAT'S* it !!!   VMS = Very Mature Secret  ) ...or is it Virtual Marketing by Stealth?r   -- n David J. DachteraE dba DJE SystemsE http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:48:35 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedss' Message-ID: <3C2E48DC.CE2CB144@fsi.net>    israel r t wrote:e > 1 > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:27:22 +0100, John McLeani( > <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote: > F > >Why doesn't Compaq do more to promote the use of VMS ?  What's your
 > >thoughts ?h > F > It is seen as too high risk a strategy to stake money on a niche os.C > Compaq sees NT and possibly Unix as being the horses to hitch itsp > fortunes to.  F The answer to that is simplicity itself: release VMS from it's "niche"H and put it back where it belongs - general purpose computing/server o.s.   Problem solved. Next?a   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems: http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:58:05 GMT.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds ' Message-ID: <3C2E4B14.5A2770A6@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:s > [snip]N > VMS doesn't make money. It is a tool used by companies to get work done. AndP > if you can get the same work done at a lesser cost, then your accountants willN > get you to move to the cheaper solution, even if it means payiung someone toE > babysit it and pressing alt-ctrl-del every 2 hours on 100 machines.a  F Ron Popeil should hear about this. By the end of Feb. 2002, he'll haveE an infomercial for the Ronco Rebooter - fits easily onto any standardtE keyboard and reboots computers at pre-determined intervals, or can beo? programmed to detect and reboot a locked machine with a specialhH attachment to cycle the power. Only four easy payments of $19.95 (U.S.).B Call 1-800-238-7448 - and for the first 100 callers, a free Win/XPF nag-screen eliminator CD! Imagine - total freedom to use XP *YOUR* way instead of Bill's way!  
 Call TODAY!!!d  t --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/R   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:00:12 +1100-4 From: israel r t <israelrt@antispamoptushome.com.au>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds 8 Message-ID: <58bt2u8qgrbbug87g4ps7nnis92g3uovpi@4ax.com>  5 On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:48:35 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"c <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  G >> It is seen as too high risk a strategy to stake money on a niche os.rD >> Compaq sees NT and possibly Unix as being the horses to hitch its >> fortunes to.t >tG >The answer to that is simplicity itself: release VMS from it's "niche"eI >and put it back where it belongs - general purpose computing/server o.s.  >m >Problem solved. Next?  + A few decades and a few mergers too late...iC I still have pleasant memories of VMS. I used it at Uni and work inn the mid eighties.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:27:13 -0000s1 From: "Sherlock Holmes" <londonlinks1@london.com>i Subject: Museumg9 Message-ID: <iss.3a7a.3c2e1870.73a4e.1@mx2.west.saic.com>l  & Visit The World's Most Famous Address!   The Sherlock Holmes Museum! 221b Baker Street, London Englandh: http://www.sherlock-holmes-museum.org.uk/happynewyear.html    2 A Happy New Year to all our visitors, old and new!  V Please see our Victorian New Year Greetings Card that we have made especially for you.  O You can email it to any friend, or print it out as a free souvenir from London!l     Yours faithfully,     
 John Riley Assistant Curator : http://www.sherlock-holmes-museum.org.uk/happynewyear.html      ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:49:31 GMT 0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsw7 Message-ID: <slrna2slth.c9o.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>:  @ In article <3C2E562B.2D66C19C@fsi.net>, David J. Dachtera wrote: > joell@mindspring.com wrote:6 >> 0C >> I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar for:B >> everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,H >> getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatD >> has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20I >> somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using./G >> Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use right E >> now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have toC& >> reboot a box because it is hung up. >>  G >> I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! Ite/ >> is not going anywhere for some time to come.e > 7 > For your sake, I hope it's not sooner than you think.p > D > I've been laid off from VMS shops two years running. Let's hope it! > doesn't become three for three!  >   . I don't see the HP - COMPAQ merger going thru.   Neither party want's it.  " And it is my hope that your right.   --     Charliea   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMTa From: joell@mindspring.comY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) . Message-ID: <3c2e153c.9787145@news.alltel.net>  @ I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar for? everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,rE getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatvA has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20dF somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.D Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightB now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to# reboot a box because it is hung up.n  D I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It, is not going anywhere for some time to come.  
 Joel LovelessU Senior System Adminstrator VMS   OpenVMS or die!a   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 11:26:46 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)t= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291126.2defe3e0@posting.google.com>-  l israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<3q4r2uc6ad3r4kbclnejf61fn08q5po4ie@4ax.com>.... > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:16:33 -0500, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  > Q > >I regret getting involved in VMS. It was a very bad business move. Don't focus Q > >on a losing operating system where people debate whether to create a dedicatedp, > >newsgroup to discuss its impending death. > G > I have a client who looks after the VMS systems at one of the leadinga  > teaching hospitals in Sydney.  > H > He sees more and more Unix and NT boxes being brought in. He says thatF > he is often asked "when do you plan to retire" . He is 53 years old.B > They cannot sack him even when the VMS machines eventually go inC > another 3 to 4 years .  Australian industrial law makes it almoste7 > impossible to sack someone except for criminal acts .P > F > He found it funny in the beginning . After all, he has  little or noE > work to do, he has guaranteed  lifetime job security and receives anH > six figure salary . However , he now has started to feel humiliated byG > the frequent "when do you plan to retire" and is retraining in Oracleo > on Unix boxes.  L tell him we feel so sorry for him and send him our deepest sympathy now that> he no longer operates on the most secure, reliable OS ever ...   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Dec 2001 22:54:29 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds).% Message-ID: <a0lhj5$lnd@web.nmti.com>n  ' In article <a0l223$6m7$1@joe.rice.edu>, * Jerry Leslie <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote:J >    Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm'sJ >    Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.C >    This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix aslK >    elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced, thex0 >    AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..."  A That's like adding "elements" of a Ferrari to a Lincoln Town Car.r   -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.nE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:44:50 +0000 (UTC)s& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)=8 Message-ID: <jqos2uk7tl416bgp1du0775kdsstdkcc6p@4ax.com>  < On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,  (joell@mindspring.com) wrote:  A >I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar for @ >everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,F >getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatB >has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20G >somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using..E >Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightsC >now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have too$ >reboot a box because it is hung up. >jE >I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It - >is not going anywhere for some time to come.r  3 If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?c   -- o1               ..        ..                  .'   t0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:43:11 +11002, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)n8 Message-ID: <q8os2u09265792vsj26bu8b5bvkdd62vqj@4ax.com>  A On 29 Dec 2001 11:26:46 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)a wrote:  S >>He says that he is often asked "when do you plan to retire" . He is 53 years old. C >> They cannot sack him even when the VMS machines eventually go inhD >> another 3 to 4 years .  Australian industrial law makes it almost8 >> impossible to sack someone except for criminal acts . >> SG >> He found it funny in the beginning . After all, he has  little or no F >> work to do, he has guaranteed  lifetime job security and receives a >> six figure salary . a >oM >tell him we feel so sorry for him and send him our deepest sympathy now that ? >he no longer operates on the most secure, reliable OS ever ...o  E One of the problems is that the 20-somethings that they would hire ifn8 he left would only need to be paid a 5 figure salary....  D BTW, I guess that you havent heard of Multics or its derivative STOP5 (a B3 rated system currently being used by the DOD ).   A Even SEVMS VAX Version 6.0 was only rated B2 ( and was never usedmE widely since it was obsolete when released. Steve Lipner worked on itiC IRC ) while OpenVMS Vax is rated even lower at C2 along with NT 3.5o and 4.0.  5 http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/epl-by-class.htmll   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:45:02 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 0 Message-ID: <00A07432.26C0990B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <jqos2uk7tl416bgp1du0775kdsstdkcc6p@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes: = >On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,j > (joell@mindspring.com) wrote:y > B >>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forA >>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced, G >>getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thattC >>has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20uH >>somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.F >>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightD >>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to% >>reboot a box because it is hung up.w >>F >>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It. >>is not going anywhere for some time to come. >i4 >If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?  E Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's  got to taste good argument.o   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM|             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes-   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 04:56:27 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) ' Message-ID: <a0m6pr$8lr$1@joe.rice.edu>f  ' drsquare (nowhere@nowhere.co.uk) wrote:d : 5 : If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?r : K If everyone is using "it", "it" must be good, thus Windows must be good.:-)   4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 06:25:38 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)t6 Message-ID: <20011230062538.22207.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:B >On 29 Dec 2001 11:26:46 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) >wrote:  >tI >>>He says that he is often asked "when do you plan to retire" . He is 53u
 >>>years old. D >>> They cannot sack him even when the VMS machines eventually go inE >>> another 3 to 4 years .  Australian industrial law makes it almostp9 >>> impossible to sack someone except for criminal acts .  >>> H >>> He found it funny in the beginning . After all, he has  little or noK >>> work to do, he has guaranteed  lifetime job security and receives a six 
 >>> figure
 >>> salary . a >>I >>tell him we feel so sorry for him and send him our deepest sympathy nowt >>that he no; >>longer operates on the most secure, reliable OS ever ...   >mF >One of the problems is that the 20-somethings that they would hire if9 >he left would only need to be paid a 5 figure salary....e >wE >BTW, I guess that you havent heard of Multics or its derivative STOPt6 >(a B3 rated system currently being used by the DOD ). >oB >Even SEVMS VAX Version 6.0 was only rated B2 ( and was never usedF >widely since it was obsolete when released. Steve Lipner worked on itD >IRC ) while OpenVMS Vax is rated even lower at C2 along with NT 3.5	 >and 4.0.  >n6 >http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/epl-by-class.html  A You really are a pathetic troll. Why did you have to crosspost toMK comp.os.linux.advocacy? Couldn't take on the C.O.V. all on your own? Or did B you think it would be fun to try and start another set of OS wars?  E BTW, if VMS is so insecure, why don't you hack the box at the address  below?     Doc. -- y6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netr   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:45:23 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)h' Message-ID: <3C2E562B.2D66C19C@fsi.net>R   joell@mindspring.com wrote:f > B > I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forA > everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced, G > getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company that C > has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20yH > somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.F > Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightD > now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to% > reboot a box because it is hung up.i > F > I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It. > is not going anywhere for some time to come.  5 For your sake, I hope it's not sooner than you think.e  B I've been laid off from VMS shops two years running. Let's hope it doesn't become three for three!g   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 05:08:15 GMTV1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>nY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)t' Message-ID: <3C2EA1D8.51A2DB6F@fsi.net>.   drsquare wrote:A > > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,  >  (joell@mindspring.com) wrote: > C > >I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forpB > >everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,H > >getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatD > >has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20I > >somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.uG > >Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use right E > >now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to2& > >reboot a box because it is hung up. > > G > >I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! Itt/ > >is not going anywhere for some time to come.t > 5 > If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?s  C Troll alert or are you really that ... I don't even know which wordpF would be appropriate. "Stupid" would sound like I wanna start a fight.@ "Callow" sounds like I'm attacking a younger person. "Myopic" is7 appropos also, but still sounds like a "fighting word".e   -- u David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 13:37:49 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291337.110c2b4e@posting.google.com>i  E gce <ge@gce.com> wrote in message news:<3C2DFE58.1FB2698A@gce.com>...74 > Might using "mail/old" instead of "mail" fix this?F > Mail/old is the older Bliss implementation. Mail gets the C version.I > I have been under the impression the Bliss version is being left alone.e >   G that is a good point ... we use mail/old under 7.1 ... anyone know what J versions other than 7.3 don't allow this and if mail/old is a work around?   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 13:40:30 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291340.2b6b96fa@posting.google.com>   k "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> wrote in message news:<3FSW7.99697$li3.1109921@ozemail.com.au>... 3 > > just do this, changing "enriched" to "html" ... K > > if you create in any language a variable and define it as the following' >  ... > > M > > SUB = 'Web Order<CR><LF>Mime-Version: 1.0<CR><LF>Content-Type: text/html'p > >wN > > and use this variable as the subject content in the mail command, then you >  canK > > send an html based file as a the message and it works great!  The abovehN > > <CR><LF> were created w/EDT GOLD KEY, then type decimal 13 or 10, then EDT( > > GOLD 3 (specins) ... it's that easy!J > I admire your enthusiasm to do wierd things in dcl, but is this really a > "good thing"?h, > (just try sending html to this newsgroup!), > reasons: http://www.expita.com/nomime.htmlI > antidote: http://ntbugtraq.ntadvice.com/default.asp?sid=1&pid=55&did=38   O what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who run web appss5 on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it!e   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 13:42:36 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112291342.694f74c@posting.google.com>  \ "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message news:<u2p37sgak74tb6@news.supernews.com>...- > Don't get too excited, this breaks in V7.3.y > 7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 9 > news:d7791aa1.0112271655.42c7dfea@posting.google.com... L > > someone posted this awhile ago on this site ... I needed to send an htmlN > > confirmation message to customers on our site and found a simple way to do >  it!+ > > this was what was originally posted ...  > >t > > $ cr[0,8] = 13 > >    $ lf[0,8] = 10r0 > >    $ subject = "This is a test." + cr + lf -+ > >    _$ + "Mime-Version: 1.0" + cr + lf -b) > >    _$ + "Content-Type: text/enriched"n! > >    $ write sys$output subjectt > >    This is a test. > >    Mime-Version: 1.0" > >    Content-Type: text/enrichedH > >    $ mail/subject="''subject'" tt: "SMTP%""anybody@xyzcompany.com"""I > >    Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C tom > >    quit: > >    <bold>Sometimes</bold> - > >    <x-color><param>red</param>I</x-color>S* > >    even amaze <italic>myself</italic>!- > >    ctrl-Z <-- i.e., here I typed a ctrl-z  > >    $ > >t > >.3 > > just do this, changing "enriched" to "html" ... K > > if you create in any language a variable and define it as the following  >  ... > >tM > > SUB = 'Web Order<CR><LF>Mime-Version: 1.0<CR><LF>Content-Type: text/html'2 > >oN > > and use this variable as the subject content in the mail command, then you >  canK > > send an html based file as a the message and it works great!  The aboveIN > > <CR><LF> were created w/EDT GOLD KEY, then type decimal 13 or 10, then EDT( > > GOLD 3 (specins) ... it's that easy!  - would using mail/old be a work around on 7.3?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:57:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!, Message-ID: <3C2E4A3F.6259F5B7@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:mQ > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who run web apps.7 > on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it!s  K Why is sending HTML mail *needed* ?  Heck, I had written a web app that had4K ALL-IN-1 generate an email and send it, and the email was fully customized,aC contained all the pertinent information and didn't need to be html.I  K What is the remote user to do when he gets some html message and his pocketh; computer can't  rasterize html and just displays the code ?p   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:00:48 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!, Message-ID: <3C2E4B1D.3186A816@videotron.ca>  F re: VMS mail versus SMTP transport breaking the Subject: "subject+mime headers" trick.n  H Is it possible that VMS mail got smart and decided to actively strip offJ non-printing characters from a subject to avoid having a user receive some malicious email ?   L Didn't VMSmail early on prevent the display of escape sequences when readingJ from character cell terminal ? (you have to extract/output=TT: to view theL animations). I would see this in the same general philosophy, in which case,P it culd be VMSmail that strips off the cr-lf stuff and not the transport itself.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:10:07 GMTs' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>n* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!+ Message-ID: <3C2E4E04.E9816F6E@pacbell.net>2  G Of course information doesn't need HTML, but adding glitz & sizzle doesa need it.   JF Mezei wrote:a >  > Bob Ceculski wrote:eS > > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who run web appse9 > > on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it!  > M > Why is sending HTML mail *needed* ?  Heck, I had written a web app that had M > ALL-IN-1 generate an email and send it, and the email was fully customized,lE > contained all the pertinent information and didn't need to be html.f > M > What is the remote user to do when he gets some html message and his pocketl= > computer can't  rasterize html and just displays the code ?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 05:45:21 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!; Message-ID: <3c2e9be1.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>o  ) Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:-4 > "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> wrote...L > > I admire your enthusiasm to do wierd things in dcl, but is this really a > > "good thing"? . > > (just try sending html to this newsgroup!). > > reasons: http://www.expita.com/nomime.htmlK > > antidote: http://ntbugtraq.ntadvice.com/default.asp?sid=1&pid=55&did=38o >@L > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who run web< > apps on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it!  E If you want to send SMTP mail, why not send it to a (locally running)rD SMTP server? That's how all my (Perl) web apps do it - and it's evenE portable, should I ever feel the urge to put them on a *ix or WinDozer box (which I won't).  G Of course doing this from DCL will probably be hard, if not impossible.h   cu,n   Martin --  A                      | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmeru. Microsoft's answer   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deA to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ 5 Windows NT 10.0.     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.dey   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:39:00 -0500 ' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> @ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)* Message-ID: <3C2E6224.F545C3F7@Empire.Net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  + For which other VMS editors can anyone name  the current maintainer ?   John Sauter responded:  1 That's rather unfair.  Just because we can't name-- the maintainer doesn't mean he doesn't exist.m0 I was the maintainer of EDT in the early 1980's,- but I doubt that any reader of this newsgroupt! could have named me at that time.    Larry Kilgallen wrote:  j< I could have, I believe because you spoke at DECUS Symposia.   John Sauter responded:  6 I did indeed speak at DECUS symposia.  I apologize for6 my doubt.  I take it that nobody is currently speaking$ about VMS editors at DECUS symposia.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.724 ************************