1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 30 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 725       Contents:- =?GB2312?B?19u6z7Xn19PTyrz+z7XNs9Taz9/R3cq+?= : Re: Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds( Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questions
 Re: MuseumP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:58:54 +0800  From: sales@econet.com.cn 6 Subject: =?GB2312?B?19u6z7Xn19PTyrz+z7XNs9Taz9/R3cq+?=9 Message-ID: <iss.1fef.3c2ec901.dce11.1@mx2.east.saic.com>   L 1/C+tLXEzfjC57i61PDIy6OsxPq6wwogICAgILXn19PTyrz+z7XNs9LRvq2zyc6quty24Lmry761L xLv5tKHNqNDFuaS+36OstavL5tfFtefX09PKvP7NqNDFwb+1xLyxvufU9rOk0tS8sM34wufTptPDL u7e+s7XEyNXS5ri01NOjrAq5q8u+ttS087mk1/fBv9PKvP60psDttcS3vcq9o6zTyrz+0NTWyrXEL xdCx8CjI57qssqG2vrvywKy7+NPKvP6jqbXItcTQ6Mfzo6y0q82ztcS159fT08q8/s+1zbPO3reoL wvrX46GjICAgICAgICAgCgogICAgveG6z8nMzvHTptPDtcS+38zlzNi14yzS17/GzfjC57+qt6LBL y8bz0rW8ttfbus+159fT08q8/sa9zKijrMzhuamwssiroaLWx8TcoaK439CntcS159fT08q8/r3iL vva3vbC4oaMKICAgILHq17zTyrz+t/7O8bmmxNyjrM+1zbPWp7PWUE9QIKGiU01UUCChoklNQVAgL 0K3S6aOs1LG5pL/J0tTKuU9VVExPT0sgoaJGT1hNQUlMILXIuPfW1tbVtsvI7bz+ytW3otPKvP6hL owogICAgV0VCTUFJTCC5psTco6zM4bmpu/nT2ldFQi/kr8DAxve3vcq9tcS159fT08q8/rf+zvGjL rMjD1LG5pL/J0tTU2sjOus7KsbzkoaLIzrrOtdi147fDzsrX1Ly6tcTTyrz+0MXP5KGjCiAgICDXL 1LavtKbA7aOsv8nNqLn9uebU8rao0uW21M35wLTTyrz+vfjQ0NfUtq+31sDgoaK31reioaLXqreiL oaLX1Lavu9i4tLSmwO2jrMzhuN/Tyrz+tKbA7dCnwsqhowogICAgt8DArLv408q8/qOsv8nNqLn9L uPfW1rnm1PK2qNbGuf3Cy8Csu/jTyrz+o6y3wNa5wKy7+NPKvP61xLjJyMWho7fA1rm28dLi16q3L oqOsz7XNs7/Jt8DWubj3wOC28dLitcTTyrz+Cteqt6KjrLHcw+LTyrz+t/7O8cb3sbu28dLiwPvTL w6GjCiAgICDVyrrFudzA7aOsu/nT2ldFQiC3vcq9tcTTyrz+1cu6xbncwO2jrLncwO3Iy9SxvLTKL ubK7wcu94ri01NO1xLLZ1/fD/MHu0rK/yb340NDVyrrFvajBoqGi1N3No6Gis7fP+qGiw9wKwuvQL 3rjEtci5psTcoaMKICAgIM/W1Nq4w7L6xrfS0b6tv6q3os3qs8mjrLKizba3xcrQs6GjrLu2063NL qLn9tefX09PKvP678cih09C52LjDsvrGt7XEz+rPuNfKwc+ho82syrHO0sPHv6rNqMHL1NrP39HdL yr7GvQrMqKOsv8nS1M2ouf23w87K0tTPws341re9+NDQ1NrP38rU08OhowrN+Na3o7podHRwOi8vL d2VibWFpbC5lY29uZXQuY29tLmNuCtPDu6fD+yy/2sHux+vNqLn9tefX09PKvP7L98iho6jWsb3TL u9i4tLG+08q8/ry0v8mjqaGjCgq088Gs0te/xs34wufT0M/euavLviBIVFRQOi8vV1dXLkVDT05FL VC5DT00uQ04KCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09L PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KuMPTyrz+08kgv8bM2NPKvP7IureiyO28/iC3osvNLNPKvP7E2sjd0+u/L xszYyO28/s7eudgKv8bM2MjtvP4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYXJldG9wLmNvbQo9PT09PT09PT09PT09L PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09CgoKPT09PT09L PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQq4L w9PKvP7TySC/xszY08q8/si6t6LI7bz+ILeiy80s08q8/sTayN3T67/GzNjI7bz+zt652Aq/xszYL yO28/iBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhcmV0b3AuY29tCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09, PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0K   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:33:27 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> C Subject: Re: Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS! 4 Message-ID: <VA.0000050a.28ced4ed@bluewin.delete.ch>  J In article <d7791aa1.0112291133.819e6f7@posting.google.com>, Bob Ceculski  wrote:L > instead of Bill Gates trying to steal VMS to build NT which was a failure,L > he should of just bought VMS outright and put windows on top of it like heM > did with dos ... could have had the best product around years ago and saved M > all that money he is now spending to redesign windows every other year, not L > to mention the bugs fixes ... not very smart Bill!  But it still isn't too0 > late!  You can still get VMS if you act quick! > G Not a good idea Bob. We don't want slapdash bloatware or spyware adding  into our beloved OS. ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:33:27 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <VA.0000050b.28ced673@bluewin.delete.ch>  C In article <3c2ea0d4.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, Martin   Vorlaender wrote: . > Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) wrote:@ > > And the most powerful of those "Unix scripting languages" is > > also available for VMS:  > > > > >   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/perl5/ > K > While it is true that Perl has its roots in Unix (mostly bourne shell and K > awk, besides a strong inheritance from C), it isn't a "Unix language" any I > more, and most certainly well beyond a "scripting language" - though it  > can be used as one.  > G > The Evil Empire itself sponsored the port to WinNT as they felt their J > command language was inapproriate. There are ports to VMS, Mac OS, OS/2,> > EPOC (just to name a few), and probably all *ixes there are. > I > BTW: Dan Sugalski, who had a big part in the VMS port, is the principal 3 > engineer for Perl 6, the next generation of Perl.  >  > cu, 
 >   Martin! >   (Perl addict for three years)  > L Perl fans who wish to offer financial support for the future development of  Perl can do so, if they wish:   > http://www.perl-foundation.org/index.cgi?page=pr#pr-drive       K "The Perl Foundation is opening with a campaign to raise US$175,000 for two J 2002 Perl Development Grants, to be awarded to Dan Sugalski and Dr. DamianI Conway for the ongoing work in Perl, including development of Perl 6. The A grants will each be a total of US$80,000: US$60,000 stipend, with I US$20,000 for travel. US$15,000 is assigned for administrative overhead."   L (Disclaimer: I am not connected in any way with this fund raising campaign, K nor am I a Perl addict, but do appreciate Dan Sugalski's efforts to keep a  , popular cross platform product alive on VMS) ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 01 11:03:46 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a0n3ni$3gv$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <00A07440.36C84520@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,J    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")  wrote: <snip>  G >>I guess you've never worked on a system where the path to those CUSPs 8 >>was either hosed or absent. Then, you'll care a *LOT*! > I >Well, I did once have to fix a VMS system where everything in SYS$SYSTEM K >with names beginning with A, B,or C had been deleted, but we couldn't just 6 >reinstall VMS because there were customizations that  >had to be saved - even 2 >though COPY, BACKUP, and CONVERT were all gone.    A <GRIN>  I hadn't realized that key programs were "close" together : if their filenames got sorted.  Oooh.  What an interesting9 aspect.   Installing a system where the filenames are in  < alphabetical order on the disk may not be a feature.  I have! a <ahem>bug in my packaging spec.    > ..That was kind of  K >a challenge.  I was able to copy COPY.EXE from another system over DECnet  H >since FAL hadn't been nuked, and then things were largely okay after a  reboot.   > Our's was called NFT.  Well, at least we had bootable magtapes= that would have helped.  The very first two files on the tape = is BACKUP.EXE and GETtable from monitor mode.  DECtapes were  % so much easier to keep around though.      <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 01 10:54:30 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a0n366$3gv$4@bob.news.rcn.net>   ' In article <3C2E506A.152D03E0@fsi.net>, 5    "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  >Peter da Silva wrote: >>  * >> In article <3C2D48CE.FA4FF25A@fsi.net>,3 >> David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: D >> >> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchE >> >> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say C >> >> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  >>   >> >In what way? >>   >> For scripting.  > ( >DCL Supports "scripting". See HELP "@". > I >> >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values   (if ' >> >any) before it invokes the program?  >>  # >> This doesn't make sense on UNIX,  > = >Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".)  > + >> just as some of the command substitution J >> tricks that don't fit into the highly structured DCL make sense on VMS. >>  0 >> >How do I enable command/option abbreviation? >>  " >> In a script? You don't want to! >  >How do you know this? > ; >> >How do I get filespec expansion to recurse directories?  >>   >> Find. > , >"find" is aexternal program, not the shell. > C >> >How do I get the shell to perform simple numeric calculations?   ..stringG >> >manipulation (concatenation, reduction ala DCL)? ...conversion from 8 >> >binary datatypes to string datatypes (ala F$CVxI())? >>   >> expr, awk, sed, join, ... > , >These are external programs, not the shell. > K >> >How do I get the shell to "export" variables to "outer" levels (ala DCL  >> >global symbols)? >>    >> That isn't meaningful in UNIX > H >Well, actually, yes it is. However, since it isn't possible, most folksB >find other ways of doing it or just live without that capability. > + >> , whether you're using a shell or one of H >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot
 >> in VMS. >  >Simple:7 >$ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specification  > D >(Requires SYSNAM and CMEXEC privilege.) Re-directing page/swap/dump* >files, etc. is another question entirely. > K >> >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM  >> >the way DCL does RMS)? >>  ' >> You call a utility program to do it.  > F >Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell. DCL has nativeG >support for RMS, although ISAM support is limited to string keys only.  > / >> >...return information about the system (ala  >> >F$GETSYI())? >>  	 >> sysctl  > 0 >"sysctl" is an external program, not the shell. > > >> >...return info. re: the crontab or "atd" (ala F$GETQUI())? >>   >> crontab, atq? > : >"crontab" and "atq" are external programs, not the shell. >     = Wait.  Why do you think you have to have it all in the shell? 8 You might wish to reexamine your definitions of external9 programs and shell.  Everything we used on TOPS-10 was an " external program...even the shell.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:02:47 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECA Message-ID: <20011230090120.E5010-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>   % On 29 Dec 2001, Peter da Silva wrote:    > J > Perl isn't a language. It's a collection of special case rules flying inF > close formation around a mixture of misapplied linguistic theory andF > misunderstood bourne shell syntax, just waiting for a loose quote to' > sneak in and unravel the whole thing.   H Finally, something I can agree with out of this whole thread!!  And hereG I thought I was the only who didn't think PERL was the best thing since 
 sliced bread.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:13:36 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECA Message-ID: <20011230091140.F5010-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>   % On 30 Dec 2001, Peter da Silva wrote:   G >                         I even implemented a shell in RSX-11 about 18 L > years ago, back before I realised that it was better to use the system theI > way it's designed rather than trying to make it look like UNIX (or VMS:   > I use DCL on VMS, MCR on RSX).  I Not to mention the fact that someone else had arlready done that a couple  years before you.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:25:00 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <3c2f23bc.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   0 Paul Sture (paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch) wrote:N > Perl fans who wish to offer financial support for the future development of  > Perl can do so, if they wish:  > @ > http://www.perl-foundation.org/index.cgi?page=pr#pr-drive      > M > "The Perl Foundation is opening with a campaign to raise US$175,000 for two L > 2002 Perl Development Grants, to be awarded to Dan Sugalski and Dr. DamianM > Conway for the ongoing work in Perl, including development of Perl 6. [...]   E It should be added that Dr. Conway already has devoted a full year to E perl, made possible by a grant from YAS (Yet Another Society). It has F been a wonderful year, with many astounding new developments springing from his mind.  N > (Disclaimer: I am not connected in any way with this fund raising campaign,    Ditto.   cu,    Martin --  F   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 17:28:13 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0nird$589$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>   ' In article <3C2E9610.A737844A@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:A >| This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix much B >| easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say@ >| that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  E >So, he's talking about the shells, and probably sed/awk, yacc, perl, G >maybe python, too, and comparing it to DCL, not the respective command 
 >programs.  G You know, if I told you I liked the PlayStation 2 better than a Windows G box for playing videogames, you'd complain that you have to insert a CD2H into it to play each game, instead of installing them all on an internal
 hard disk.  J The whole UNIX shell approach is based on stringing programs together. TheM shell itself is intended as little more than versatile glue for this process.   G >...which is how these "religious" wars get started in the first place.cD >There's UN*Xly things I'd *LOVE* to have on VMS. There's also VMSly# >things I'd *LOVE* to have on UN*X.f >a  >Show me the "perfect" answer...  M Well, I don't have a perfect answer... but I would say that when you're usinggJ a UNIX system, learn the UNIX way of doing things. When you're using a VMS* system, learn the VMS way of doing things.   -- l@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)P   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 17:48:05 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0nk0l$5st$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>V  ' In article <3C2E9C1C.64718678@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:O >> >> >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (ife* >> >> >any) before it invokes the program?  & >> >> This doesn't make sense on UNIX,  @ >> >Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".)  N >> Because UNIX has a completely different command line model than VMS. A UNIXL >> command line is an array of strings, not a structured language construct.  G >Exactly my point. Other than placing itself between the kernel and the)C >programmer, teh shell does little or nothing you can't do yourselfr >(without the shell).s  I Since that's exactly what it's supposed to do, and very little more, whatMJ *is* your point? DCL is a procedural programming language (albeit one withJ fairly primitive control structures) that sometimes runs external programsF to perform commands. The UNIX shell is a nearly functional programmingH language that primarily controls the dataflow between external programs.  L This model turns out to be extraordinarily powerful, and allows you to buildM quite sophisticated programs out of simple components. It's nothing like DCL,-J and looking at features of DCL and trying to find them in the shell, or toG criticise the shell for lacking them, is like complaining that your newiE minivan doesn't come equipped with a movie theatre and grocery store.s  I >...but the original poster was comparing DCL to the scripting languages,LC >not the external utilities they may invoke. Important distinction.0  G The original poster was talking about the ease of programming using theqJ UNIX shell compared to using DCL. Since you can't do anything in the shellK without external programs, it should be obvious to the most naive observer,bF at least at this late date in the discussion, that this distinction isG purely an invention of yours and not something intended by the originalK poster.5  K >> >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chrootU
 >> >> in VMS.b   >> >Simple:8: >> >$ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specification  ; >> What happens if you access DUA0: directly at this point?8  : >Yes. It's still MOUNTed and available. What's your point?  6 Then you haven't performed the equivalent of a chroot.  E Chroot completely replaces the user-level view of the entire file and1H device namespace with the newly constructed subset. If I haven't mounted* da0s2 in that namespace, it's not visible.  N >> >> >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM >> >> >the way DCL does RMS)?q  * >> >> You call a utility program to do it.  : >> >Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell.  , >> Again, you can not make that distinction.   >You not only can, you *MUST*!   Must I? Why?  B >Try this: find a way to "break" the path to your utility programsI >(clobber the PATH, rename /bin to /binbin, or whatever). Now can you "ls8D >*"? (No.) Can you "echo *"? (Yes.) So, yes, the concept of commandsE >which are "internal" to the shell vs. those which are not is vitally9 >important.9  F But why stop there. Let's unmount all the devices, format all the fileH systems, and overwrite all the open shared libraries in memory! Hey, now you can't do anything!  B I completely fail to see why the behaviour of a system that you'veD deliberately broken has any bearing on the utility of the shell as a* scripting environment on a working system.   -- +@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)-   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 17:58:51 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0nkkr$661$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>n  8 In article <00A07440.36C84520@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,K Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote: I >Well, I did once have to fix a VMS system where everything in SYS$SYSTEMwK >with names beginning with A, B,or C had been deleted, but we couldn't justoL >reinstall VMS because there were customizations that had to be saved - evenC >though COPY, BACKUP, and CONVERT were all gone.  That was kind of sK >a challenge.  I was able to copy COPY.EXE from another system over DECnet  O >since FAL hadn't been nuked, and then things were largely okay after a reboot.n   Everyone's got war stories.   L I managed to fix a UNIX system where everything in /bin had been deleted andF nobody was logged in, except one FTP session (the one that had deletedH everything in /bin, on an old ftpd that allowed you to ftp as root). TheL hardest part was geting a running shell... I eventually wrote over a programJ run from inetd with the shell, and it kept the execute bit, then telnet to- that port and use a similarly FTPed chmod ...r  N I had another system that a broken vendor install script managed to format theF system disk, all I had was whatever blocks happened to be in RAM or onG a swap partition. Some programs would run, but break if I hit code that H hadn't been executed lately. Managed to save off the configuration files; so we could get everything back working after reinstalling.e  K It's amazing what you can do in extremis, but it's only vaguely relevant tot. whether "cat" is built in to the shell or not.  - (ps, if you do lose cat, here's a workaround:,  
   cat () {*     while read line; do echo "$line"; done   }i )    -- r@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)r   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:01:59 -05005 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>n  ' In article <3C2E96AF.3AADBED8@fsi.net>,w0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >nD >I'm currently training to teach Solaris administration, so I'm veryH >interested in what advantages people find in UN*X vs. the alternatives, >not limited to VMS. >  >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/a > ) >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:w  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  ? Having done the VAX/VMS migration to Unix about 21 years ago...sD and then moved to training (including training VMS folks to make the move)...  ? Here's a quick note written without this old geek's bifocals so1$ there may be some spelling errors...  D If you're coming from MS-DOS I found it was much easier to teach theA string together small utlities using pipe method of doing things.2B Shell expansion of wildcards and treatment  of special charsacters" was one point which was difficult.  C If you're coming from VAX/VMS (in my pre-OpenVMS days), the idea of F multiple programs executing on multiple processors concurrently wasn'tC difficult and permissions were similar concepts along with programsn' running with privileges (SGID, SUID).  i  E Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMS uA via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion and gE the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/ eG with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shocker.: since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)     Bill   -- e --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!0   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:10:26 -05005 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <a0nlai$4or$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>w  5 In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>,  >> CK >> Yeah, but what's the virtue of being shell-only, when there are multipleeD >> shells and you can't guarantee which one you'll be running under. > G >That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script.3- >I can make sure that I have the right shell.h >o >aak  8 Which doesn't work in AT&T/USL systems before SVR3 iirc.C At least my old SysIII and SVR2 based systems used : at the top of "6 /bin/sh  and # for csh and didn't support #!shellname.   Ah yes 4.2 is > V.     Bill -- l -- 2H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!0   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:58:51 +0000I1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> ! Subject: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?L- Message-ID: <3C2F017B.D14EC10A@starpower.net>i   Hello,  F For my hobbyist VMS cluster with VMS 7.1 is there any reason for me toE use DECNET Plus?  I have the "full" VMS CD set, not the hobbyist one,tG and when I install VMS it recommends I install DECNET Plus.  I've heardW6 DECNET Plus can be hard to configure.  (Is this true?)  C My requirements are simple.  I have a couple of VAXen that won't bed? members of the cluster that I want to talk to.  (They may run a C "vintage" version of 5.x if I can put together a complete version.)t  A Some other things that I think don't need DECNET but I'll list tot
 make sure:  ; DECserver 200 for terminals and DECserver 250 for printers.sA Infoserver 1000, VXT2000+, DECconcentrator 500, DECbridge 510 andt7 LANbridge 200.  I would guess that's all LAT/MOP stuff.a  ? I want to be able to print from DU/Alpha and Ultrix/DEC Station C systems to printers connected to the VAX or the 250.  I would guessp that will use TCP/IP.   A An Alpha member of the cluster will be on FDDI (and ethernet), ast$ will the Ultrix and DU RISC systems.  @ And I'll install some TCP/IP package on the cluster, since every# other box I have at home runs Unix.,  > BTW, will "set host" from one member of the cluster to another@ generate SCS traffic?  DECNET doesn't need to be installed to doB "set host" on a cluster does it?  If DECNET is installed and thereC is DECNET traffic from one node to another will it be forced on them@ LAN or will VMS turn it into SCS traffic and let it flow over CI or DSSI?   Thanks Robert   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Dec 2001 23:11:28 -0800& From: theaugur@hotmail.com (the augur)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds = Message-ID: <d39e6c16.0112292311.2bdfd0b2@posting.google.com>    My favorite oxymorons:   military intelligenceg under 50 OpenVMS programmera  F You're right, I quit, no more trying to win with this bastardized OS. A  Best or worst, it doesn't matter anymore, it's which OS has moreEA marketing pull and fanfare that wins.  It's no longer quality buto? quantity of ISV crap or quantity of unstable novelty features. lF Microsoft blew that one wide open and I guess I'll just have to follow the precedent.  D Now, to teach myself how to write errant, unstable code and submit a/ resume to Sun and Microsoft stating so, hmmm...d    D Skills: C/C++, Java, I can also write the most abhorent, obfuscated,B unstable code that is guaranteed three weeks ahead of schedule and- littered with big and small bugs, Perl, UNIX.-    < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:20:03 GMTt  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds2+ Message-ID: <3C2ECE59.33E170C6@prodigy.net>e   israel r t wrote:I > 1 > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:27:22 +0100, John McLeans( > <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote: > F > >Why doesn't Compaq do more to promote the use of VMS ?  What's your
 > >thoughts ?  > F > It is seen as too high risk a strategy to stake money on a niche os.C > Compaq sees NT and possibly Unix as being the horses to hitch itsy > fortunes to.  + The death spiral works something like this:   G Sales drop (possibly due to nothing more than some random perturbation, . or perhaps a general slowdown in the economy).  E The platform's owner responds by cutting costs (e.g. development and tG marketing) in an attempt to maintain profitability.  (Note: this is the-9 point at which the spiral may most reasonably be broken.)   E This leads to the (warranted) perception in the marketplace that the eH platform is not getting enough attention and (correctly or incorrectly) , calls its long term viability into question.  J As a result, customers and potential customers think harder and/or longer # about making long term commitments.o   Sales drop.h   Repeat until done.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:26:09 GMTl  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse+ Message-ID: <3C2ECFCA.D6D41166@prodigy.net>e   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > John McLean wrote:
 > > [snip]. > > Does the "S" in VMS really mean "secret" ? >   > Ah *HA* !!! So *THAT'S* it !!! >  > VMS = Very Mature Secret > + > ...or is it Virtual Marketing by Stealth?    Very Minor Spendingl   >  > -- > David J. Dachtera- > dba DJE Systemsu > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:30:23 GMT1  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsh+ Message-ID: <3C2ED0C6.3EB12BE6@prodigy.net>v   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote: 
 > > [snip]P > > VMS doesn't make money. It is a tool used by companies to get work done. AndR > > if you can get the same work done at a lesser cost, then your accountants willP > > get you to move to the cheaper solution, even if it means payiung someone toG > > babysit it and pressing alt-ctrl-del every 2 hours on 100 machines.r > H > Ron Popeil should hear about this. By the end of Feb. 2002, he'll haveG > an infomercial for the Ronco Rebooter - fits easily onto any standardaG > keyboard and reboots computers at pre-determined intervals, or can beaA > programmed to detect and reboot a locked machine with a specialtJ > attachment to cycle the power. Only four easy payments of $19.95 (U.S.).D > Call 1-800-238-7448 - and for the first 100 callers, a free Win/XPH > nag-screen eliminator CD! Imagine - total freedom to use XP *YOUR* way > instead of Bill's way! >  > Call TODAY!!!r >   F Many (most?) Windows desktops are shut down at the end of the day, so G they're never more than a day away from a reboot.  Some (many?)Windows  : servers are configured to reboot each night at a set time.  H Rebooting has become an accepted way of life for many, who know nothing  better.t   > -- > David J. Dachterar > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:32:16 GMTC  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedst+ Message-ID: <3C2ED139.EE9A692A@prodigy.net>v   israel r t wrote:. > 7 > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:48:35 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"t  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > I > >> It is seen as too high risk a strategy to stake money on a niche os.mF > >> Compaq sees NT and possibly Unix as being the horses to hitch its > >> fortunes to.c > >bI > >The answer to that is simplicity itself: release VMS from it's "niche"eK > >and put it back where it belongs - general purpose computing/server o.s.i > >w > >Problem solved. Next? > - > A few decades and a few mergers too late...vE > I still have pleasant memories of VMS. I used it at Uni and work in  > the mid eighties."  H I still have fond memories of the PDP-8, but I don't expect to see them  surge in popularity.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:50:57 -0500t( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsaA Message-ID: <20011230084753.J5010-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>   $ On 29 Dec 2001, Patrick Young wrote:  0 > Well, we have a 23 year old and a 35 year old. >cE > Anyone else want to join the party of folks wishing to use OpenVMS?R  I I'm 52 and have serious doubts VMS will last til my retirement.  It won'ti0 be the first proprietary OS I have seen go away.   >@> > Need to corner those 18+ year olds - Should not be too hard.  I I work with those 18+ year olds.  None of them have ever heard of VMS andeH once introduced, none of them see any reason to become interested.  Sad,	 but true.,   bill   -- ?J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:09:18 GMTl* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedssB Message-ID: <2THX7.277999$C8.20353727@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messagei% news:3C2ECE59.33E170C6@prodigy.net...)   ...o  - > The death spiral works something like this:d >TI > Sales drop (possibly due to nothing more than some random perturbation,o0 > or perhaps a general slowdown in the economy). >sF > The platform's owner responds by cutting costs (e.g. development andI > marketing) in an attempt to maintain profitability.  (Note: this is theD; > point at which the spiral may most reasonably be broken.)i >hF > This leads to the (warranted) perception in the marketplace that theI > platform is not getting enough attention and (correctly or incorrectly)o. > calls its long term viability into question. >pK > As a result, customers and potential customers think harder and/or longeri% > about making long term commitments.r >n
 > Sales drop.a >n > Repeat until done.  J That's a description of the spiral when the product's vendor acts at least* semi-rationally and customers do likewise.  K In VMS's case, however, the spiral *started* with owner neglect (and activeeK deprecation of the platform in favor of NT and/or Unix), and the consequentd, customer reaction was *profoundly* rational.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:03:31 +0000 1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net>Y1 Subject: Re: More DSSI cluster problems/questionsa, Message-ID: <3C2F10A3.B099A1C@starpower.net>   Paul Repacholi wrote:M  5 > Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> writes:n >pE > > Will the HSD10 serve tape drives to the entire cluster or just touH > > nodes on the DSSI bus?  The cluster manual states that only TA or TF( > > drives can be server to the cluster. > A > The manual was written prior to the HSDs. For all purposes, anylA > tape you put on the HSD *is* a TF tape. BTW, setting up the HSDDC > for tapes is 'fun'. Post what you have, exact model of drive, andh) > ask for the mix to feed the controller.h >h > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.oB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.  A >Post what you have, exact model of drive, and ask for the mix to  >feed the controller.   " OK, things to connect to my HSD10:
 TSZ07 9-track  TZ30 TLZ07 (4mm DDS2) TLZ06 (4mm DDS)o TZK12 (QIC)b RRD42i  > The HSD10 with the tapes drives will not have any disk drives.@ On my UNIX systems I've learned to put SCSI tape drives on theirE own SCSI bus, or at least keep them off the "main" SCSI bus.  Is thatn, an issue with the drives "behind" the HSD10?  @ Should I keep the tape drives off of my "main" DSSI bus?  Here's what my DSSI configuration is:   The "main" DSSI bus has:   4000/106A #1   4000/106A #2   4001/105A-   HSD10-   RF72 (system disk)   RF72 and RF73 (user files)   The other DSSI buses have:   4000/106A #1, 2nd DSSI bus:e
   2 RF72's
   2 RF36's   4000/106A #2, 2nd DSSI bus:i HSD10n8 (If I get another external DSSI cable I may connect this( bus the 2nd DSSI bus on the other 106A.)   4000/105A 2nd DSSI bus:L
   4000/100   6 RF3x drivesl    = BTW, I copied a "large" file (my VMS 3.7 BACKUP saveset) fromE@ one DSSI drive to another on the same DSSI bus and noticed there> was no CPU load.  Direct disk to disk transfer for DSSI disks, cool.a  : Is that also the case for two SDI disks on the same HSC or  two HSC's with a direct CI path?   Thanks Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:33:27 +0100e/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>  Subject: Re: Museume4 Message-ID: <VA.00000509.28ced4e3@bluewin.delete.ch>  P In article <iss.3a7a.3c2e1870.73a4e.1@mx2.west.saic.com>, Sherlock Holmes wrote:( > Visit The World's Most Famous Address! >  > The Sherlock Holmes Museum# > 221b Baker Street, London Englandd< > http://www.sherlock-holmes-museum.org.uk/happynewyear.html > 4 > A Happy New Year to all our visitors, old and new! > X > Please see our Victorian New Year Greetings Card that we have made especially for you. > Q > You can email it to any friend, or print it out as a free souvenir from London!d >  Happy New Year Sherlock,  J Your good friend Dr. Watson keeps visiting my computer unexpectedly. In my7 experience Victorian gentlemen and computers don't mix.a  L I am given to understand that you have a reasonable amount of influence with5 the gentleman, so maybe you can help with my request.s  I Can you please tell him he should stick to medicine or assisting you witho, your inquiries, and stop disturbing my work.   Thanks in advance. ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlando   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:01:56 GMTu" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)r> Message-ID: <URzX7.14185$726.5870956@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   rcarter wrote:  L > I wonder how long True64 will be around. Compaq has already announced theyK > will stop making Alpha chips - it's a lot cheaper to buy an intel box andnH > run Linux. At work we are in the process of replacing our aging AlphasG > with Dell supplied RH7.1 boxes - much faster, fairly inexpensive, ands" > minimal porting problems so far. >  > L Compaq is porting OpenVMS and Tru64 to the Itanium.  But by the time Compaq J is ready to implement its port, Intel will have a better Itanium out... I L hope.  But I think its still a big mistake to dump the Alpha chip... sounds 5 to me more like PPM (Piss Poor Management) at Compaq.sF Uh,... ever seen the price of an Itanium built box?? They ain't cheap.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:03:49 GMTi" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)g> Message-ID: <FTzX7.14186$726.5870883@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Jerry Leslie wrote:r  % > rcarter (rcarter@zianet.com) wrote: , > : I wonder how long True64 will be around. > :i > ; >    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2100182,00.htmlp: >    ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - HP brings Unixes together >  >    HP brings Unixes together > $ >    15:29 Friday 30th November 2001 >    Martin Veitch, IT Week) > J >   "The HP-UX system will form the bulk of the post-merger company's Unix >    server offering > J >    Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm'sJ >    Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.C >    This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix asyK >    elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced, the.0 >    AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..." > , >    http://www.theinquirer.net/28120102.htm" >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs > " >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs >    HP or no HP > + >    By Mike Magee, 28/12/2001 09:32:14 BSTa > J >   "SOURCES AT COMPAQ Germany tell the INQUIRER that the firm is readyingH >    layoffs of staff working on its version of Unix, Tru64, whether theD >    takeover deal between it and Hewlett Packard happens or not..." >  > K A sad day when we see perfectly good designs being flushed down the toilet.T   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:06:37 GMTI" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) > Message-ID: <hWzX7.14188$726.5871176@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   drsquare wrote:d  > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,  >  (joell@mindspring.com) wrote: > B >>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forA >>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced, G >>getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatpC >>has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20.H >>somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.F >>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightD >>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to% >>reboot a box because it is hung up.  >>F >>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It. >>is not going anywhere for some time to come. > 5 > If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?a > I Because of bad management at Compaq.  I think M$ has had a heavy hand in   this.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:05:33 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)n> Message-ID: <hVzX7.14187$726.5871094@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   joell@mindspring.com wrote:   B > I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forA > everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,aG > getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatiC > has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20 H > somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.F > Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightD > now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to% > reboot a box because it is hung up.e > F > I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It. > is not going anywhere for some time to come. >  > Joel LovelessS  > Senior System Adminstrator VMS >  > OpenVMS or die!  > I Hehehe... I'm with ya.  I retired from a VMS system admin job.  I got my c' own little VAX 4000 to keep me company.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:08:49 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)i> Message-ID: <lYzX7.14189$726.5871218@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>  $ Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:  C > In article <jqos2uk7tl416bgp1du0775kdsstdkcc6p@4ax.com>, drsquareo! > <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:n> >>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,  >> (joell@mindspring.com) wrote: >>C >>>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar foruB >>>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,H >>>getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatD >>>has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20I >>>somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.fG >>>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use right3E >>>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to:& >>>reboot a box because it is hung up. >>>2G >>>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It / >>>is not going anywhere for some time to come.s >>5 >>If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?n > G > Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's  > got to taste good argument.  >  > --8 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
 >             K >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery(K >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesn >  > L HAHAHAHAHA!!! No need to worry about drsquare peg there.  He's still trying  to use linux with his winmodem.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 01 08:39:52 GMTi From: jmfbahciv@aol.comaY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e+ Message-ID: <a0mr9p$fdt$1@bob.news.rcn.net>a  % In article <a0lhj5$lnd@web.nmti.com>, *    peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:( >In article <a0l223$6m7$1@joe.rice.edu>,+ >Jerry Leslie <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote: K >>    Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm's-K >>    Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.dD >>    This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix asI >>    elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced,   the 1 >>    AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..."  > B >That's like adding "elements" of a Ferrari to a Lincoln Town Car. > > Nope.  A Segway--a Lincoln can still hold more than one rider.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:47 +0000 (UTC)r& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)M8 Message-ID: <qh8u2usa9cvilraujufof9jhhddhibgg2j@4ax.com>  < On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:08:49 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,&  (GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>) wrote:  % >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:s >]H >>>>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It0 >>>>is not going anywhere for some time to come. >>>s6 >>>If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it? >> tH >> Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's >> got to taste good argument. >> s >> -- 9 >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001      >> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  >>            L >>   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fieryL >>   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes >> b >>  M >HAHAHAHAHA!!! No need to worry about drsquare peg there.  He's still trying    >to use linux with his winmodem.  8 Fuck off. It's not my fault I can't afford a real modem.   -- a1               ..        ..                  .'   u0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC).& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)m8 Message-ID: <fg8u2u4ktbbuouvtjpek9ail4839e65k73@4ax.com>  < On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:45:02 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,A  (system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)) wrote:   b >In article <jqos2uk7tl416bgp1du0775kdsstdkcc6p@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:> >>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,  >> (joell@mindspring.com) wrote: >>C >>>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forbB >>>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,H >>>getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatD >>>has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20I >>>somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.eG >>>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightiE >>>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have tot& >>>reboot a box because it is hung up. >>>rG >>>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It / >>>is not going anywhere for some time to come.  >>5 >>If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it?  >sF >Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's >got to taste good argument.  J No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At leastG people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive andi difficult or something?t   -- e1               ..        ..                  .'    0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:48 +0000 (UTC)h& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)-8 Message-ID: <ai8u2us9ijj3dfj9rpin6kih5gapgmv13e@4ax.com>  7 On 30 Dec 2001 04:56:27 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,c-  (leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)) wrote:e  ( >drsquare (nowhere@nowhere.co.uk) wrote: >:6 >: If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it? >:L >If everyone is using "it", "it" must be good, thus Windows must be good.:-)  I Anyone who knows anything about OSes doesn't use Windows unless they have  to.t   -- e1               ..        ..                  .'   d0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:49 +0000 (UTC)t& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e8 Message-ID: <jj8u2uc0pm8f22ud0cp2sh7bnmaj2on9hg@4ax.com>  < On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:06:37 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,&  (GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>) wrote:   >drsquare wrote: >nC >>>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar foreB >>>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced,H >>>getting tired of hearing it. I work for a major internet company thatD >>>has a VMS application at its core. I am surrounded by hot shot 20I >>>somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the world worth using.wG >>>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use right E >>>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have toD& >>>reboot a box because it is hung up. >>> G >>>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! Itu/ >>>is not going anywhere for some time to come.s >>  6 >> If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it? >>  J >Because of bad management at Compaq.  I think M$ has had a heavy hand in  >this.  3 What actually makes VMS any better than other OSes?    -- a1               ..        ..                  .'   i0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:46:44 +1100b, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)S8 Message-ID: <t0au2u0dfakim4jv5lqqt4b0uhghktgq50@4ax.com>  2 On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  K >No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At least H >people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and >difficult or something?   Marketed dismallyh Priced ridiculouslym& Available only on proprietary hardware1 Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)09 Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)(+ Learnt only by people now in their fifties.    But it is more stable than Unix1 More secure than Unix  More user friendly than Unix More clusterable than Unix.1   But .... It is dying...   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 16:14:22 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e5 Message-ID: <20011230161422.2204.qmail@gacracker.org>a  < On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:= >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:45:02 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,'B > (system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)) wrote: >-C >>In article <jqos2uk7tl416bgp1du0775kdsstdkcc6p@4ax.com>, drsquarel! >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes::? >>>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:17:34 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,>  >>>(joell@mindspring.com) wrote: >>>.D >>>>I too am an old VMS Systems Administrator. If I had a dollar forK >>>>everytime I was told that VMS was going away or being replaced, gettingo >>>>tired of hearing it. IG >>>>work for a major internet company that has a VMS application at itsl >>>>core. I am surrounded byI >>>>hot shot 20 somethings that think Unix is the only thing in the worldp >>>>worth using.H >>>>Little do they know that VMS could replace everything they use rightF >>>>now, cheaper and faster. I get a good laugh everytime they have to' >>>>reboot a box because it is hung up.. >>>>K >>>>I will continue to work with VMS until they kick me out the door! It isn >>>>not going anywhere for >>>>some time to come. c >>>h6 >>>If it's that good then why isn't everyone using it? >>K >>Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's goto >>to taste good argument.u >nK >No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At least-H >people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and >difficult or something?  K Nothing really difficult about VMS once you've spent a day or so getting tos grips with the basics.  K Pricing is a whole other ball of wax... You can get it for free for privaterH use, but first you'd need to get hold of Alpha or VAX hardware to run itJ on. (Scouring the online auctions does the job for that). For business useJ they claim the total cost of ownership is better than many 'nix solutions.K This is because, amongst other things, once the system is running you don't  need to do much maintenance.  E The biggest problem with VMS is non-technical. It's the utter lack ofCF marketing. DEC were dreadful for it, and despite hopes to the contraryH Compaq haven't been any better. Events like the annoncement of the AlphaD EOL have been a big setback to customer confidence and as far as theJ denziens of comp.os.vms can ascertain, Compaq only cares about keeping big customers like the DoD and NSA.   J If you want to know how secure it is then have a look at Opcom's report on how VMS fared at DefCon 9...  ( http://www.vmsone.com/~opcom/defcon9.htm  C Reliability is another big plus for VMS, the Irish National Railway.: apparently hold the record with a machine up for 15 years!     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.nete   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 06:37:19 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112300637.384e25e3@posting.google.com>'  u martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote in message news:<3c2e9be1.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>...f+ > Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:p6 > > "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> wrote...N > > > I admire your enthusiasm to do wierd things in dcl, but is this really a > > > "good thing"?d0 > > > (just try sending html to this newsgroup!)0 > > > reasons: http://www.expita.com/nomime.htmlM > > > antidote: http://ntbugtraq.ntadvice.com/default.asp?sid=1&pid=55&did=38f > > N > > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who run web> > > apps on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it! > G > If you want to send SMTP mail, why not send it to a (locally running) F > SMTP server? That's how all my (Perl) web apps do it - and it's evenG > portable, should I ever feel the urge to put them on a *ix or WinDozeo > box (which I won't). > I > Of course doing this from DCL will probably be hard, if not impossible.@ >  > cu,>
 >   Martin  I our smtp server is vms based ... there is nothing hard about sending smtps7 mail from vms ... you send as you would on any platformh  ! $ mail file.txt joe@somewhere.comS  K what is neat is w/tcpwares smtp to decnet gateway, you can send mail from acH decnet only node thru tcpware smtp on another vms smtp mail server using  . $ mail file.txt node::smtp%"joe@somewhere.com"  N what we are talking about is how to send mime/html meassages from vms web appsN which by using the above subject line trick works great ... nothing hard about? any of it, so why by a junk windoze box when vms can do it all?o  M VMS can be a web server, mail server, and proxy server, all at the same time!eM Use Tcpware as your IP stack, Purveyor or Apache as your web server, and that> is all you'll ever need!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:48:34 +0100h2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!; Message-ID: <3c2f5372.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>a  ) Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:s7 > martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote... - > > Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:uL > > > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who runD > > > web apps on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it! > > I > > If you want to send SMTP mail, why not send it to a (locally running)dH > > SMTP server? That's how all my (Perl) web apps do it - and it's evenI > > portable, should I ever feel the urge to put them on a *ix or WinDozea > > box (which I won't). > > K > > Of course doing this from DCL will probably be hard, if not impossible.s >aK > our smtp server is vms based ... there is nothing hard about sending smtpo9 > mail from vms ... you send as you would on any platformc ...rK > what we are talking about is how to send mime/html meassages from vms webe > apps  H I know. Think I haven't made my point very clear, or did I? What I meantH by "SMTP mail" is the ability to set up all the header lines you want. IH do this by directly talking SMTP to an SMTP server. In Perl, it's easilyF done using the Net::SMTP module. And from time to time, a virtual hostE has to be transfered to a *ix or Win box, and the perl solution still- works.  J > which by using the above subject line trick works great ... nothing hardG > about any of it, so why by a junk windoze box when vms can do it all?s  F Who said anything about a WinDoze box? My SMTP server is a VMS system,F of course. A DNS tool once complained that the zones I administer onlyE have one MX record - but I only need one :-) Okay, I'll soon transfers- them onto a two-node cluster - even better....  I > VMS can be a web server, mail server, and proxy server, all at the sameVL > time! Use Tcpware as your IP stack, Purveyor or Apache as your web server,# > and that is all you'll ever need!,    Talking just for me: yes, it is.  D But as a webmaster working in a company doing web hosting: there areG customers out there that do want to use ASP and FrontPage, or only feeleE at home under *ix... But then, the WinDoze/*ix administration is some ! other guys' job - I pity them ;-)i   cu,>   Martin -- nF                           | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3  Cetero censeo            | work: mv@pdv-systeme.dekF  Redmondem delendam esse. |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:                           | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.725 ************************