1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 31 Dec 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 726       Contents:, Re: AEC-7720UW Ultra Wide SCSI-to-IDE Bridge1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds$ Newbie - needs help creating user...( Re: Newbie - needs help creating user...( Re: Newbie - needs help creating user... Re: Newbie - VMS boot help...  Re: Newbie - VMS boot help...  spawning a new environment Re: spawning a new environment Re: spawning a new environment Re: spawning a new environment Re: spawning a new environment5 Re: Standalone Teco (was Re: VMS on IA64 (technical))  Too Few Servers opcom message ! Re: Too Few Servers opcom message ! Re: Too Few Servers opcom message G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! ! Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages! 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 00:03:01 +0100* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)5 Subject: Re: AEC-7720UW Ultra Wide SCSI-to-IDE Bridge ( Message-ID: <3c2f9d25@news.kapsch.co.at>  u In article <LUDN7.683348$Lg.26535246@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes: H >Has anyone tried using an AEC-7720UW Ultra Wide SCSI-to-IDE Bridge on aM >OpenVMS system?  I'm thinking this might be a nice cheap way to add a lot of K >disk space to my PWS433au.  Information about the product can be found at: 4 >http://www.acard.com/eng/product/sp/aec-7720uw.html > M >Basically it lets you use DMA66 & DMA100 drives as UW-SCSI drives.  It looks L >to me like it should work, but I'd really like to hear that someone has hadK >it working before plunking down the $$$'s on one.  They list it as working # >with Sun, Linux, Mac, and Windows.   
 Sorry, no.  O But I think, in the meantime, you bite and we can profit from your experiences.  So please share them...    --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:58:29 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0nv5l$bic$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>   3 In article <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, 6 Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:F >Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMS B >via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion and F >the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/ H >with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shocker; >since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)   D That's not the utility breaking, it's the command line length limit.  E These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up.    --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:05:23 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C2F8190.A4AD3D59@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote: N > This model turns out to be extraordinarily powerful, and allows you to buildO > quite sophisticated programs out of simple components. It's nothing like DCL, L > and looking at features of DCL and trying to find them in the shell, or toI > criticise the shell for lacking them, is like complaining that your new G > minivan doesn't come equipped with a movie theatre and grocery store.     J In the end, it comes down to not HOW you do things, but whether you can doN them or not. With an out-of-the-box Unix, can you scan the batch queues to seeI if your job is already submitted and if not, submit it ?  if grepping the N output of the equivalent of show queue will set some status indicating whetherH string was found or not works, then in the end, you end up with the sameI functionality as the more "elegant" VMS solution that gives you access to : individual fields of individual jobs on individual queues.      G reminds me a bit of postscript versus C. Postscript is stack based with  reverse polish notation.K (for instance:  "1 3 add 2 mul"  yields 8 on the stack.  (1 3 add yields 4,  then 4 2 mul yields 8)  ? A programmer may first be tempted to emulate his language with  # /a 1 3 add def    (   a = 1 + 3 ; ) ! /b a 2 mul def    ( b = a * 2 ; ) & and then use "b" later in the program.  J But once you get the hang of it, some stuff becomes fun even thought it is# very easy to make stuff unreadable.    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 21:14:51 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0o04b$bun$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>   3 In article <a0nlai$4or$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, 6 Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:6 >In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>,L >>> Yeah, but what's the virtue of being shell-only, when there are multipleE >>> shells and you can't guarantee which one you'll be running under.   H >>That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script.. >>I can make sure that I have the right shell.   >>aak   9 >Which doesn't work in AT&T/USL systems before SVR3 iirc.   H Yes, on older UNIX systems the shell recognised that a file was a script; executed it directly. The shell had code vaguely like this:    	pid = fork();
 	if(pid==0) {  		...bookkeeping code here...   		for(each directory in $PATH) {) 			if (isexecutable(directory/program)) { 1 				execute(directory/program, program, args...); 0 				/* Couldn't execute, assume it's a script */9 				execute("/bin/sh", "sh", directory/program, args...); ' 				bailout("can't exec myself! AUGH");  			} 		}  		bailout("command not found");  	}  L When there was only one shell this was not an issue. When Berkeley developedF the Pascal and C shells they came up with this idea of using a commentF character to decide whether to call the V6 shell or the C shell, sinceI the V6 shell only used ":" for comments (actually, these were labels) and  the C shell used "#".   J Later, they came up with the idea of adding the magic number 020443 (#! inG ASCII) to the kernel's list of executable file formats... this would of I course read the command interpreter from the first line of the file. This G didn't show up in AT&T UNIX until they did their big "leeching session" 1 to add BSD interfaces to either SVR3.0 or SVR3.2.   D >At least my old SysIII and SVR2 based systems used : at the top of 7 >/bin/sh  and # for csh and didn't support #!shellname.    >Ah yes 4.2 is > V.   8 I wish I had that poster. I do have the "4.4 > 5.4" one.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:38:49 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112301338.1ae3f25b@posting.google.com>   a peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message news:<a0nkkr$661$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>... : > In article <00A07440.36C84520@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,M > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote: K > >Well, I did once have to fix a VMS system where everything in SYS$SYSTEM M > >with names beginning with A, B,or C had been deleted, but we couldn't just N > >reinstall VMS because there were customizations that had to be saved - evenE > >though COPY, BACKUP, and CONVERT were all gone.  That was kind of  M > >a challenge.  I was able to copy COPY.EXE from another system over DECnet  Q > >since FAL hadn't been nuked, and then things were largely okay after a reboot.  >  > Everyone's got war stories.  > N > I managed to fix a UNIX system where everything in /bin had been deleted andH > nobody was logged in, except one FTP session (the one that had deletedJ > everything in /bin, on an old ftpd that allowed you to ftp as root). TheN > hardest part was geting a running shell... I eventually wrote over a programL > run from inetd with the shell, and it kept the execute bit, then telnet to/ > that port and use a similarly FTPed chmod ...  > P > I had another system that a broken vendor install script managed to format theH > system disk, all I had was whatever blocks happened to be in RAM or onI > a swap partition. Some programs would run, but break if I hit code that J > hadn't been executed lately. Managed to save off the configuration files= > so we could get everything back working after reinstalling.  > M > It's amazing what you can do in extremis, but it's only vaguely relevant to 0 > whether "cat" is built in to the shell or not. > / > (ps, if you do lose cat, here's a workaround:  >  >   cat () {, >     while read line; do echo "$line"; done >   }  > )   I one things for sure, those unix soldiers have a "lot" more war stories to N tell than vms people!  if you like a conveluted environment like unix, why notO just replace the dcl cli w/unix one and run on vms?  then you have the security > and reliability of vms w/the conveluted command world of unix!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:34:15 -0600 C From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <3C2F7A47.40001@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  ' > On 29 Dec 2001, Peter da Silva wrote:  >  > J >>Perl isn't a language. It's a collection of special case rules flying inF >>close formation around a mixture of misapplied linguistic theory andF >>misunderstood bourne shell syntax, just waiting for a loose quote to' >>sneak in and unravel the whole thing.  >> > J > Finally, something I can agree with out of this whole thread!!  And hereI > I thought I was the only who didn't think PERL was the best thing since  > sliced bread.       D No one is more aware of Perl's faults than those responsible for itsD care and feeding (which in a very minor role includes me).  However,= for those more interested in getting work done than in making D doctrinaire dismissals, it's quite handy to have in the toolbox.  As< far as loose quotes sneaking in, it has much more aggressive diagnostics than DCL.   G Besides, it's a lot more fun to work on improving an imperfect language G than to rag on the ones other people use.  I was much more impressed by B the Dachtera-led thread a few months ago that outlined a number ofE specific features that would improve DCL than I am by this discussion > in which everything other than the poster's preferred shell orE scripting tool either "isn't a language" or is "stone age computing."    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:58:22 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u2v3fudkv77t39@corp.supernews.com>   ? In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: : :> Just its ability to do functions which return values is; :> worth a lot.  In DCL the next best thing we have is CALL : :> but then you have to set global variable to communicate$ :> return values back to the caller.  @ : Use GOSUB instead then. You can't pass parameters on the GOSUBI : statement, but all local and global symbols are "visible" regardless of G : the GOSUB depth. CALL is like "@" - it creates a new procedure depth.   9 The benefits of functions come directly from the ability  : to have calling arguments and return values, otherwise, we3 would all just use global variables and gotos in C.     : :> Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into the? :> current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power-  :> ful scripting language.  < : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing.  
 . mystuff.ksh    --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:36:25 GMT & From: badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3C2F987D.CF2DE72D@bellatlantic.net>   plonk    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > c > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message news:<a0nkkr$661$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>... < > > In article <00A07440.36C84520@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,O > > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote: M > > >Well, I did once have to fix a VMS system where everything in SYS$SYSTEMOO > > >with names beginning with A, B,or C had been deleted, but we couldn't justtP > > >reinstall VMS because there were customizations that had to be saved - evenF > > >though COPY, BACKUP, and CONVERT were all gone.  That was kind ofN > > >a challenge.  I was able to copy COPY.EXE from another system over DECnetS > > >since FAL hadn't been nuked, and then things were largely okay after a reboot.  > >w > > Everyone's got war stories.e > >fP > > I managed to fix a UNIX system where everything in /bin had been deleted andJ > > nobody was logged in, except one FTP session (the one that had deletedL > > everything in /bin, on an old ftpd that allowed you to ftp as root). TheP > > hardest part was geting a running shell... I eventually wrote over a programN > > run from inetd with the shell, and it kept the execute bit, then telnet to1 > > that port and use a similarly FTPed chmod ...t > >lR > > I had another system that a broken vendor install script managed to format theJ > > system disk, all I had was whatever blocks happened to be in RAM or onK > > a swap partition. Some programs would run, but break if I hit code that L > > hadn't been executed lately. Managed to save off the configuration files? > > so we could get everything back working after reinstalling.c > > O > > It's amazing what you can do in extremis, but it's only vaguely relevant toi2 > > whether "cat" is built in to the shell or not. > >e1 > > (ps, if you do lose cat, here's a workaround:- > >s > >   cat () {. > >     while read line; do echo "$line"; done > >   }b > > )p > K > one things for sure, those unix soldiers have a "lot" more war stories tonP > tell than vms people!  if you like a conveluted environment like unix, why notQ > just replace the dcl cli w/unix one and run on vms?  then you have the security @ > and reliability of vms w/the conveluted command world of unix!   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 23:03:00 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0o6f4$f9d$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>m  , In article <3C2F8190.A4AD3D59@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: K >In the end, it comes down to not HOW you do things, but whether you can dod
 >them or not.a    Well, of course you can do them.  B >With an out-of-the-box Unix, can you scan the batch queues to see9 >if your job is already submitted and if not, submit it ?c   Sure.e   > if grepping theiO >output of the equivalent of show queue will set some status indicating whetheriI >string was found or not works, then in the end, you end up with the samedJ >functionality as the more "elegant" VMS solution that gives you access to; >individual fields of individual jobs on individual queues.c  F Personally I consider the UNIX solution more elegant. You only need toM implement the searching and report generation and so on in one place, instead K of depending on the authors of every application to have provided the flags  to get the report you need.s  K It's like filename expansion. I haven't found a system that depends on appswN to do filename expansion yet, where I didn't eventually end up having to writeM a little script to generate a list of file names and run some command on eache@ file because the author didn't think to allow wildcards *there*.  G And it's generally not as easy as "for i in *; do cmd $i; done" either.e   -- s@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)r   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 23:06:17 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0o6l9$fav$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>u  = In article <d7791aa1.0112301338.1ae3f25b@posting.google.com>, ) Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote: J >one things for sure, those unix soldiers have a "lot" more war stories to >tell than vms people!  ! Well, there's a lot more *of* us.e  8 >if you like a conveluted environment like unix, why not4 >just replace the dcl cli w/unix one and run on vms?  E For the same reason I don't insist on driving on the left side of thea road when in the US.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes"  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)C   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:20:42 -0500o. From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@rcsri.org>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) Message-ID: <3C2FBD6A.55E97457@rcsri.org>    Peter da Silva wrote:S > 9 > [...] The UNIX shell is a nearly functional programmingh@ > language that primarily controls the dataflow between external > programs.n > ; > This model turns out to be extraordinarily powerful [...]r  +    Something here smells a lot like JCL....s   -- eH +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+H | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |H | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |H | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+H | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |H +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:20:02 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <wRqQqR7HxtnH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3C2E493B.3CFB13DE@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Rob Young wrote:N >>         there is a good example of creating a tool as $ SET DEFAULT stinks,, >>         but not nearly as much as vi! ;-) > N > To me, what makes or breaks an operating system is its built-in text editor.M > You can't use some fancy 3rd party one because when you visit customers you " > are not assured it is installed. > N > And when there is a time crunch, it is an editor with which you are familiarN > that saves the day when you have to fix some scripts or fix a data file in a > hurry etc etc. > N > Notebook  (windows) and Textedit (mac) just don't cut it. TPU isn't perfect,O > and don't ever try to do a global change that involved the character TAB on apB > Microvax II because it will take forever (EDT is best for that). > B > EMACS seesm popular, but again, it is not sure to be everywhere.  : 	I started out using TPU with EDT Keypad set... picking up: 	and customizing my own section over the years.  Using Ken; 	Fairfield's , Kevin Carosso's and that fellow named Huntero; 	Goatley... and another guy from Nova Scotia and can't find9 	a reference in the .tpus... e  A 	But the tab/detab feature was/is very handy.  I have that mappedr> 	to Gold-t to turn all tabs into spaces, Gold-e to turn spaces@ 	into tabs.  Mostly Gold-t when working filters (using FLEX) on < 	newspaper markup back in the day, hardly use it at all now.  ( 	Here is the routine to manipulate tabs.   				Robn   !tI ! Changes spaces to tabs (intelligently) and changes tabs to spaces.  TheyJ !    spaces->tabs translation is tricky: ENTAB is designed to NOT put tabsH !    into comments.  The method of doing this is to NOT replace a singleH !    space which is on a tab stop with the tab (which would be correct).N !    Most comments have only single spaces in them so this is quite effective. !nP ! Note: I had a terrible time trying to make these routines work with the screenP !    in UPDATE mode and using the screen image -- the data at the cursor was notN !    always what I expected, even when forcing TPU to update the screen first.N !    I therefore disable the display, do everything on the real data, and then !    re-enable the display.3 !d ! Last Modified:> !   06/26/86 G. Van Baren   Conform to LSI's TPU/LSE standards+ !   11/13/85 G. Van Baren   Initial releases !n PROCEDURE LSI_ENTABaD   LOCAL COL, LOC, START_TAB, END_TAB, TAB_RANGE, SAVE_POS, old_mode;     SET(SCREEN_UPDATE, OFF);   SAVE_POS := MARK(NONE);e)   POSITION(BEGINNING_OF(CURRENT_BUFFER));o4    IF GET_INFO (CURRENT_BUFFER, "mode") = OVERSTRIKE    THEN-       old_mode := "O";"       SET (INSERT, CURRENT_BUFFER)    ELSEo       old_mode := "I")	    ENDIF;R   LOOP     ! Find the first space.r'     LOC := SEARCH(" ", FORWARD, EXACT);a     EXITIF LOC = 0;      POSITION(LOC);     START_TAB := MARK(NONE);     LOOPJ       ! Translate spaces into TABs while there are more spaces.  Note thatH       !    a single space on a tab stop will never be changed into a TAB2       !    unless it is followed by 8 more spaces.       MOVE_HORIZONTAL(1);e7       EXITIF (CURRENT_OFFSET = LENGTH(CURRENT_LINE)) ORh7         (GET_INFO(CURRENT_BUFFER, "CHARACTER") <> " ");e  7       COL := GET_INFO(CURRENT_BUFFER, "OFFSET_COLUMN");n!       IF (COL / 8) * 8 = COL THENS         END_TAB := MARK(NONE);<         TAB_RANGE := CREATE_RANGE(START_TAB, END_TAB, NONE);         ! A single tab%         IF LENGTH(TAB_RANGE) < 9 THEN=           ERASE(TAB_RANGE);.           DELETE(TAB_RANGE);           COPY_TEXT(ASCII(9));           EXITIF 1;iM         ELSE ! There were 9 spaces -- a space on a tab stop and 8 more spaces*           ERASE(TAB_RANGE);s           DELETE(TAB_RANGE);)           COPY_TEXT(ASCII(9) + ASCII(9));            EXITIF 1;e         ENDIF;       ENDIF;     ENDLOOP;
   ENDLOOP;     SET(SCREEN_UPDATE, ON);s   POSITION(SAVE_POS);s   IF old_mode = "O" THEN%      SET (OVERSTRIKE, CURRENT_BUFFER)h   ENDIF;
   REFRESH; ENDPROCEDURE   PROCEDURE LSI_DETABd(   LOCAL COL, LOC, SAVE_POS, N, old_mode;     SET(SCREEN_UPDATE, OFF);   SAVE_POS := MARK(NONE);a)   POSITION(BEGINNING_OF(CURRENT_BUFFER));l4    IF GET_INFO (CURRENT_BUFFER, "mode") = OVERSTRIKE    THEN        old_mode := "O";"       SET (INSERT, CURRENT_BUFFER)    ELSE        old_mode := "I"u	    ENDIF;r   LOOP     ! Find the TAB to expand,     LOC := SEARCH(ASCII(9), FORWARD, EXACT);     EXITIF LOC = 0;        POSITION(LOC);     ERASE(LOC);      N := CURRENT_OFFSET;     N := N - (8 * (N / 8));A,     COPY_TEXT(SUBSTR("        ", 1, 8 - N));
   ENDLOOP;     SET(SCREEN_UPDATE, ON);    POSITION(SAVE_POS);#   IF old_mode = "O" THEN%      SET (OVERSTRIKE, CURRENT_BUFFER)    ENDIF;
   REFRESH; ENDPROCEDURE   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:44:37 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <3C2FC305.90302@tsoft-inc.com>   Ben Franchuk wrote:r   > Arthur Krewat wrote: > G >>>If I ever found an assembly language without some kind of a "branch"s3 >>>instruction, I'd probably die of a heart-attack.c >>>  >>me too :)g >>= > A computer using Cellular Automation may not need a branch,iC > as different kinds of cells could to keep track of state changes.OA > I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programingS. > in assembly for something other than a 6502! >  >  >   - Get ready for some chest pains.  Well, maybe.a  H I still do a few things in MACRO-32, when appropriate.  One could argue I that if on an Alpha that this isn't an assembly language.  However, I do   have a few VAXs laying around.  F To be fair, if you meant 'exclusively' in assembly, no never did that.   Dave   -- n4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:41:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <1EDbehEQ+QTz@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  ] In article <a0lo9h$13s8$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:    > 1 >>> >How do I enable command/option abbreviation?t > # >>> In a script? You don't want to!n >  >>How do you know this?d > I > Hard earned experience. Writing scripts and performing interactive workiG > require different styles of coding, and abbreviations don't belong in , > scripts that are meant to remain portable. >   > 	Having been bit too many times with SYLOGIN.COM abbreviationsF 	or expansions that "everyone" is using and shying away from SET SCOPE" 	the habit (depending on mood) is:  G 	$ deletery *.tmp_scratch;*  ! deleterey?  Hmmm... yes extra chars help # 					! force delete to be picked up ' 					!overriding goofy delete settings.    	Or the more common for me:r   	$ delete = "delete" 	$ delete *.tmp_scratch;*s  C 	And everyone has their variation.  I agree with Peter, I certainlyu: 	don't abbreviate in a script, that is for a command line:   	$ reca show 	$ mon clusr   	etc.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:23:07 GMT-2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C2FCB71.7815AB6A@bartek.dontspamme.net>r   Peter da Silva wrote:3 > 5 > In article <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,h8 > Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:G > >Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMSfC > >via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion and G > >the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/ J > >with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shocker= > >since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)  > F > That's not the utility breaking, it's the command line length limit. > G > These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up.b  ? I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit witheA modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within then! last year, with current versions.t   aake   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:08:14 GMTa2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C2FD585.F519E39E@bartek.dontspamme.net>I   Rob Young wrote: > _ > In article <a0lo9h$13s8$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:w >  > >o3 > >>> >How do I enable command/option abbreviation?h > >t% > >>> In a script? You don't want to!r > >i > >>How do you know this?l > >gK > > Hard earned experience. Writing scripts and performing interactive workuI > > require different styles of coding, and abbreviations don't belong inn. > > scripts that are meant to remain portable. > >r > G >         Having been bit too many times with SYLOGIN.COM abbreviationssO >         or expansions that "everyone" is using and shying away from SET SCOPEc+ >         the habit (depending on mood) is:  >   N something else I learned from TOPS-10 and never paid no never mind to it untilR it showed up when installing something on a later version of VMS than the software was intended for.r   aak    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 21:25:05 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <lI4Od8xxowni@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  \ In article <a0o04b$bun$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:   > -- CB > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	      "Cave cuniculos lagana ferentes" > H > "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)v  G 	Curious, but where do you get that at?  That passage in the NIV reads -A 	as so (NIV being a very good translation from the original Greeke 	texts):   Matthew 10:16   O "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakesn and as innocent as doves."  ' 	Also, this sounds too good to be true:    http://www.ulc.org/   8 We accept Everyone From ALL Faiths, Beliefs & Religions.% No Requirements Or Commitments EVER! .  - 	That last line isn't what Scripture teaches..  < Become an ordained minister in less than 3 minutes and start< your own ministry or church of any faith or religion, TODAY.G After your instant ordination, proceed to print your instant full colorn9 ordination credential with your name and ordination date, / all within 3 minutes and absolutely 100% legal.o   	3 minutes?  Wow.e   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:44:19 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> % Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?F* Message-ID: <3C2F81E0.1080100@qsl.network>   Robert DiRosario wrote:     wH > For my hobbyist VMS cluster with VMS 7.1 is there any reason for me toG > use DECNET Plus?  I have the "full" VMS CD set, not the hobbyist one,nI > and when I install VMS it recommends I install DECNET Plus.  I've heard 8 > DECNET Plus can be hard to configure.  (Is this true?)    H It is not that hard to do the basic configuration with net$configure.com    3 But Phase IV is definitely easier to learn and use.e  I As a hobbiest, you do not get support for either, just what ever you can lE get from the manuals, or this and other on line forums.  Some advice t) could be worth only what you paid for it.s    eE > My requirements are simple.  I have a couple of VAXen that won't berA > members of the cluster that I want to talk to.  (They may run atE > "vintage" version of 5.x if I can put together a complete version.)  > C > Some other things that I think don't need DECNET but I'll list tow > make sure:    I DECNET either type, allows for decnet objects, which are a very powerful  E tool for system management.  Even if you only plan to use TCP/IP for rI communication, DECNET objects can be very useful.  It is the easiest way e3 to start a detached process and pass it parameters.u    o= > DECserver 200 for terminals and DECserver 250 for printers.eC > Infoserver 1000, VXT2000+, DECconcentrator 500, DECbridge 510 andp9 > LANbridge 200.  I would guess that's all LAT/MOP stuff.t    H MOP requires LANCP to be started, and the use of LAT means that it must  be started.-    -A > I want to be able to print from DU/Alpha and Ultrix/DEC StationgE > systems to printers connected to the VAX or the 250.  I would guessr > that will use TCP/IP.a    . The older DECservers will require MOP and LAT.    1C > An Alpha member of the cluster will be on FDDI (and ethernet), asw& > will the Ultrix and DU RISC systems.     B > And I'll install some TCP/IP package on the cluster, since every% > other box I have at home runs Unix.o     Probably a good idea.n    b@ > BTW, will "set host" from one member of the cluster to another > generate SCS traffic?      SET HOST uses DECNET.  SET HOST/LAT uses LATo SET HOST/TELNET uses TCP/IPi  M >  DECNET doesn't need to be installed to do "set host" on a cluster does it?i     No decnet, no set host.a  I The SYSMAN program does not require DECNET to execute commands on remote s nodes.  E > If DECNET is installed and there is DECNET traffic from one node totC > another will it be forced on the LAN or will VMS turn it into SCSt* > traffic and let it flow over CI or DSSI?    G While DECNET and SCS can share an interconnect like ethernet, there is   no relationship between them.      -John    wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:53:33 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n% Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? + Message-ID: <3C2F7ECB.91F0815@videotron.ca>n   Robert DiRosario wrote: H > For my hobbyist VMS cluster with VMS 7.1 is there any reason for me to > use DECNET Plus? e  G Au contraire, there are reasons for you NOT to use Decnet-5.  First, itrL requires a large amount of disk space, will fill up your operator.log with aM gazillion messages, and is far more complex to maintain (everything stored inT different files).g  N Without the full documentation (printed), I would not recommend this to anyone I like.-  E One neat thing is that it will change your system clock automatically1K (daylight/standard), but for some, this may in fact be a problem. The other 4 advantage is the ability to route decnet over TCPIP.  @ > BTW, will "set host" from one member of the cluster to anotherB > generate SCS traffic?  DECNET doesn't need to be installed to do# > "set host" on a cluster does it? /  M Yes it does require Decnet. However, if you have LAT, you can SET HOST/LAT tol4 the remote machine. Or TELNET to the remote machine.    L Install DECNET 4. It is simple, doesn't take up much space, and will let youH do stuff like copy files across the net, use MAIL (with a node::username destination) etc etc.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:23:15 GMT.) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)R% Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?n2 Message-ID: <3c2f8443.2413700397@news.wcc.govt.nz>  F DECNet Phase V is a tad more difficult to master and, I believe, takes up more space.= But, in a basic configuration, it's fairly easy to get going.n      4 On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:58:51 +0000, Robert DiRosario! <rdirosario@starpower.net> wrote:i   >Hello,l >aG >For my hobbyist VMS cluster with VMS 7.1 is there any reason for me to-F >use DECNET Plus?  I have the "full" VMS CD set, not the hobbyist one,H >and when I install VMS it recommends I install DECNET Plus.  I've heard7 >DECNET Plus can be hard to configure.  (Is this true?)e >oD >My requirements are simple.  I have a couple of VAXen that won't be@ >members of the cluster that I want to talk to.  (They may run aD >"vintage" version of 5.x if I can put together a complete version.) >-B >Some other things that I think don't need DECNET but I'll list to >make sure:  >b< >DECserver 200 for terminals and DECserver 250 for printers.B >Infoserver 1000, VXT2000+, DECconcentrator 500, DECbridge 510 and8 >LANbridge 200.  I would guess that's all LAT/MOP stuff.  C You'll need MOP enabled in order to load your DECServer 200s unless D they can load off one of the other Systems. And, I think, that might> require DECNet. I don't think TCPIP will handle a MOP request.   > @ >I want to be able to print from DU/Alpha and Ultrix/DEC StationD >systems to printers connected to the VAX or the 250.  I would guess >that will use TCP/IP.  F TCPIP should handle your printing, fairly easy to set up LPR prrinting using the Digital TCPIP stack.   >wB >An Alpha member of the cluster will be on FDDI (and ethernet), as% >will the Ultrix and DU RISC systems.e >dA >And I'll install some TCP/IP package on the cluster, since everyy$ >other box I have at home runs Unix. >c? >BTW, will "set host" from one member of the cluster to anotherDA >generate SCS traffic?  DECNET doesn't need to be installed to dooC >"set host" on a cluster does it?  If DECNET is installed and theresD >is DECNET traffic from one node to another will it be forced on theA >LAN or will VMS turn it into SCS traffic and let it flow over CIo	 >or DSSI?.@ If you're going to Set Host between Cluster Members then I think= you'll need DECNet. It'll consider it an external connection.y0 But you could equally Telnet or use Set Host/Lat     >s >Thanksl >Robertr >p >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:24:46 +0100p, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>% Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?u* Message-ID: <a0o4jr$bnk$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  8 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message$ news:3C2F81E0.1080100@qsl.network... > Robert DiRosario wrote:O >u
     [ . . . ]t >oJ > The SYSMAN program does not require DECNET to execute commands on remote > nodes.  J This is only true for members of the same cluster. SYSMAN to non clustered* nodes DOES require DECnet, either IV or V.   >.
     [ . . . ]   	 Bart Zorne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:56:15 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?c, Message-ID: <3C2FA98F.580F7134@videotron.ca>   Bart Zorn wrote:L > This is only true for members of the same cluster. SYSMAN to non clustered, > nodes DOES require DECnet, either IV or V.  X As did MON/CLUSTER prior to 7.2 when it was given the ability to use TCPIP as transport.  = And as far as I know, PHONE still requires decnet :-) :-) :-)_   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:48:25 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)I9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds_' Message-ID: <a0nuip$pv2$1@joe.rice.edu>   ) Bill Gunshannon (bill@cs.uofs.edu) wrote:E :BK : I'm 52 and have serious doubts VMS will last til my retirement.  It won'tf2 : be the first proprietary OS I have seen go away.  C I'm 56 and also have doubts that VMS will last until my retirement.E  A It's also doubtful that the US IT industry will see the levels of D employment enjoyed before the Great Tech Wreck.  More companies willJ move IT and other functions such as CAD/CAM and Accounts Payable offshore:  D   http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO58739,00.htmlD   Ford opens IT hub in India to save millions | Computerworld News &   Feature StoriesT  K : I work with those 18+ year olds.  None of them have ever heard of VMS and J : once introduced, none of them see any reason to become interested.  Sad, : but true.;  J "The saddest thing as you get older is witnessing the death of knowledge."  ;                                                   Sam YorkoTE                                                   rec.models.railroads  F It's hard to persuade someone to work on a product offered by a vendorE who acts like they're ashamed of it, when they  can work on "industry)C standard" Microsoft, a vendor is proud of their products, even when . they have little technical reason to be proud.    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:24:41 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112301324.450edfb7@posting.google.com>   t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<2THX7.277999$C8.20353727@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>.../ > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messageP' > news:3C2ECE59.33E170C6@prodigy.net...= >  > ...I > / > > The death spiral works something like this:O > >NK > > Sales drop (possibly due to nothing more than some random perturbation,)2 > > or perhaps a general slowdown in the economy). > >OH > > The platform's owner responds by cutting costs (e.g. development andK > > marketing) in an attempt to maintain profitability.  (Note: this is theO= > > point at which the spiral may most reasonably be broken.)0 > >:H > > This leads to the (warranted) perception in the marketplace that theK > > platform is not getting enough attention and (correctly or incorrectly)n0 > > calls its long term viability into question. > >:M > > As a result, customers and potential customers think harder and/or longer ' > > about making long term commitments.r > >a > > Sales drop.t > >g > > Repeat until done. > L > That's a description of the spiral when the product's vendor acts at least, > semi-rationally and customers do likewise. > M > In VMS's case, however, the spiral *started* with owner neglect (and active M > deprecation of the platform in favor of NT and/or Unix), and the consequenta. > customer reaction was *profoundly* rational. >  > - bill  L and that owner was Palmer when he predicted in a few years everyone would beJ on NT ... what a moron ... and Capellas fits the same mold ... a couple ofI ceo's who know nothing about the best os they happen to have had the helm 4 over, and now you can throw on alpha along w/vms ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:29:42 -0500i& From: "John Allain" <allain@panix.com>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds-( Message-ID: <a0o4kb$fe$1@news.panix.com>  ; Could somebody re-send me the text of the original message?R7 I never read it and it's no longer available on server.-   John A.E   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 17:50:34 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr3 Message-ID: <1CL9sljQIIY6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Q In article <a0o4kb$fe$1@news.panix.com>, "John Allain" <allain@panix.com> writes:r= > Could somebody re-send me the text of the original message?n9 > I never read it and it's no longer available on server.t  @ As with most wailing and moaning here, the original cite did not& substantiate the title of this thread.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:33:13 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse* Message-ID: <3C2FCE69.60801@tsoft-inc.com>  
 cjt wrote:    E  > Many (most?) Windows desktops are shut down at the end of the day, >  > so  they're never more than a day away from a reboot.  SomeC  > (many?)Windows  servers are configured to reboot each night at aa  > set time.  >B  > Rebooting has become an accepted way of life for many, who know  > nothing  better.e  G Run your favorite nuclear power station on windoz.  Don't worry if the aG reactor tries to go critical at the same time as the windoz system set sB up to handle such a condition is doing it's 'nightly' reboot.  :-)  F The periodic reboot is part of what I feel is the greatest disservice I billy boy has done computer users.  Lowering expectations is disgusting. i4   I truly hate 'lowest common denominator' thinking.  I Then again, it seems the way much of civilization is going.  Look at the c dumbing down in education.   Dave   -- t4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:51:19 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsA3 Message-ID: <kaGg2nk3ymNw@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  U In article <3C2FCE69.60801@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:0  6 >   I truly hate 'lowest common denominator' thinking. > K > Then again, it seems the way much of civilization is going.  Look at the D > dumbing down in education.  - i wunder what dav meenz bye sayying that ? -)c   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:35:43 GMTl% From: "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org> - Subject: Newbie - needs help creating user...>; Message-ID: <3aQX7.12965$i8.2458140@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com>    Hello,  L   I just got a VAXStation 4000-60 and through the FAQ I was able to get into the system account.n  J   I set the system password, restarted the box, and signed onto the GUI as system.e  
   I then did:      set default sys$system   @sys$examples:adduser.comO  8   ...and added a user called fowlerp with default privs.  *   I cannot, however, sign on as this user.  K   If I go to authorize and do a show fowlerp, then the user is there and ito$ shows the 3 failed logon attempts...  L   Any idea what is wrong?  It has been so long since I used VMS that I wouldJ prefer not to use the system account until I have become better acquainted
 with the box.D   Thank you for any help,m Paul Fowlero   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:06:27 -0500r% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>i1 Subject: Re: Newbie - needs help creating user...1/ Message-ID: <u2vp26dgj7126d@news.supernews.com>r  F What version of VMS?  One some versions of VMS the ADDUSER.COM commandG procedure doesn't have the /FLAGS=NODISUSER qualifier so if the DEFAULTlK account is disabled (DISUSER) then your new account would also be disabled.hK The DEFAULT account is disabled by default.  When you show fowlerp, does is 0 say "Flags: DisUser" about 6 lines from the top?   If so, just do a:1  # UAF> MODIFY FOWLERP/FLAGS=NODISUSERa    0 "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org> wrote in message5 news:3aQX7.12965$i8.2458140@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...b > Hello, >tI >   I just got a VAXStation 4000-60 and through the FAQ I was able to getn into > the system account.m >sL >   I set the system password, restarted the box, and signed onto the GUI as	 > system.  >l >   I then did:s >d >   set default sys$system >   @sys$examples:adduser.comn >O: >   ...and added a user called fowlerp with default privs. >a, >   I cannot, however, sign on as this user. >aJ >   If I go to authorize and do a show fowlerp, then the user is there and it& > shows the 3 failed logon attempts... >-H >   Any idea what is wrong?  It has been so long since I used VMS that I wouldrL > prefer not to use the system account until I have become better acquainted > with the box.@ >. > Thank you for any help,o
 > Paul Fowler  >o >y   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 22:53:35 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)t1 Subject: Re: Newbie - needs help creating user...i= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0112302253.48716f2b@posting.google.com>   h "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org> wrote in message news:<3aQX7.12965$i8.2458140@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com>...   >  >   set default sys$system >   @sys$examples:adduser.comu > : >   ...and added a user called fowlerp with default privs. > , >   I cannot, however, sign on as this user. >   > Make sure the DISUSER flag is not set on the new account (fromD the DEFAULT record), however ADDUSER.COM should/will have done this.  = More info please, output from ... $ mc authorize show fowlerpa   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:29:55 +0000a1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net>I& Subject: Re: Newbie - VMS boot help..., Message-ID: <3C2F7943.6A2DF49@starpower.net>  0 You can get a BNC T connector and two 50 Ohm BNC% "thinnet" terminators at Radio Shack.u   Robert   Hans Vlems wrote:   C > It could be a network adapter problem. Put a loopback T-connectoryA > on the thinwire port or a 15 pin loopback plug on the AUI port.E > Probably faster is this: >E	 > >>> B/1  >  > SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "MIN"T > SYSBOOT> set uafalternate 1b > SYSBOOT> c > 8 > This allows you to log on as SYSTEM with any password.= > It does not run SYSTARTUP so you can edit out all the stufft) > you do not need/like and make it going.t >e7 > Nice machine BTW, a VS 4000-60 is approx 15 VUPS IIRCy >m > Hans >r( > "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org> wrote:	 > >Hello,  > >wO > >  15 years ago, I worked on a VAX.  Yesterday, a friend gave me a VaxstationA
 > >4000 - 60!t > >uO > >  Now I want to boot it, but I have forgotten everything about administering  > >VMS.n > >lN > >  It is hanging at "Starting IPX daemon (NPSD)..."  I see PATHWORKS loading0 > >above that, so this may be a PATHWORKS thing. > >TO > >  How do I get past that??? - It has a network card, but it is not ethernet,fK > >and I really have no way to connect to it.  Is there something I can buys > atM > >radioshack to convert that cable "thin wire?" type network card to a basic  > >Ethernet connection?e > >tL > >  I can't wait to play with this thing.  I am sure my memories will startJ > >coming back to me once I read some of the help manuals (which I am told > aretD > >on the hard drive....)  I programmed sooo much fortran in VMS.... > >r > >Thank you in advance,	 > >Fowler? > >  > >  > >T > >S >c > http://www.zfree.co.nz   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:57:23 GMTb% From: "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org>t& Subject: Re: Newbie - VMS boot help...; Message-ID: <nuQX7.12969$i8.2462701@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com>.  
 Thank you,     That was my next question!!!!a   Fowler  > "Robert DiRosario" <rdirosario@starpower.net> wrote in message& news:3C2F7943.6A2DF49@starpower.net...2 > You can get a BNC T connector and two 50 Ohm BNC' > "thinnet" terminators at Radio Shack.  >s > Robert >O > Hans Vlems wrote:i >,E > > It could be a network adapter problem. Put a loopback T-connector.C > > on the thinwire port or a 15 pin loopback plug on the AUI port.e > > Probably faster is this: > >e > > >>> B/1u > > ! > > SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "MIN"l > > SYSBOOT> set uafalternate 1  > > SYSBOOT> c > >i: > > This allows you to log on as SYSTEM with any password.? > > It does not run SYSTARTUP so you can edit out all the stuff + > > you do not need/like and make it going.  > >t9 > > Nice machine BTW, a VS 4000-60 is approx 15 VUPS IIRCh > >s > > Hans > > * > > "The Fowler" <fowler@nogod.org> wrote: > > >Hello,l > > >oF > > >  15 years ago, I worked on a VAX.  Yesterday, a friend gave me a
 Vaxstation > > >4000 - 60!a > > >OC > > >  Now I want to boot it, but I have forgotten everything about 
 administering4	 > > >VMS.p > > >sH > > >  It is hanging at "Starting IPX daemon (NPSD)..."  I see PATHWORKS loadingu2 > > >above that, so this may be a PATHWORKS thing. > > >-G > > >  How do I get past that??? - It has a network card, but it is notm	 ethernet,nI > > >and I really have no way to connect to it.  Is there something I can- buy3 > > atI > > >radioshack to convert that cable "thin wire?" type network card to aa basicd > > >Ethernet connection?  > > > H > > >  I can't wait to play with this thing.  I am sure my memories will startDL > > >coming back to me once I read some of the help manuals (which I am told > > arelF > > >on the hard drive....)  I programmed sooo much fortran in VMS.... > > >  > > >Thank you in advance, > > >FowlerC > > >n > > >h > > >  > > >a > >e > > http://www.zfree.co.nz >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:25:53 -0500I- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.# Subject: spawning a new environment , Message-ID: <3C2F865D.F12ABF81@videotron.ca>  M Is there a way to spawn a subprocess which first executes a command proceduree and then gives me the $ sign ?  K The goal is to setup the environment for the subprocess (default directory,rM logicals, process_name (so I can attach back to it) and then get the standard ! $ prompt to do what I want to do.a  1 what I want is the functional equivalent of this:    $spawn/proc=chocolate 9 	$ @$disk2:[projects.cake.chocolate]setup_environment.comc 	$  L at which point I would have the standard DCL prompt. I could attach to other$ processes and come back to that one.  L I found that ATTACH is ideal when you are working on multiple directories atI the same time and it is faster to just attach to the process in the rightiJ directory than to constantly set def back and forth. And one need not deal< with cluttered windows and the cost to opening a new window.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 19:04:57 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)n' Subject: Re: spawning a new environment < Message-ID: <55f85d77.0112301904.b652bc1@posting.google.com>  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C2F865D.F12ABF81@videotron.ca>...e  o3 > what I want is the functional equivalent of this:t >  > $spawn/proc=chocolate ; > 	$ @$disk2:[projects.cake.chocolate]setup_environment.come > 	$ >   " $ spawn/input=tt:/proc=chocolate -;      @$disk2:[projects.cake.chocolate]setup_environment.comn  7      "If both a command string and the /INPUT qualifiern@      are specified, the specified command string executes beforeA      additional commands are obtained from the /INPUT qualifier."    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 21:42:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i' Subject: Re: spawning a new environmente3 Message-ID: <T8jKy0hs8HAM@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  \ In article <3C2F865D.F12ABF81@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   > N > I found that ATTACH is ideal when you are working on multiple directories atK > the same time and it is faster to just attach to the process in the rightoL > directory than to constantly set def back and forth. And one need not deal> > with cluttered windows and the cost to opening a new window.  * 	Hmmm.. sounds like a use for my CD.COM...  0 	If I'm hopping around... I use it all the time:   <NODENAME>$ cd workj NODENAME_HOMEDIR.WORK> cd   " Directory DVLP$DISK:[HOMEDIR.WORK]  G ACCOUNTING_STUFF.DIR;1                  ADVISE.DIR;1        AVAIL.DIR;1s; BACKUP.DIR;1        BACKUP_FAILURES.DIR;1                  C  $ [snip a bunch of directory listings]   Total of 47 files.   _Directory: ba" NODENAME_HOMEDIR.WORK.BACKUP> cd \    1) DEV2:[OLDROB] %  2) AAA_LINK:[AAA_LINK.PRODLIVE.BKUP]_  F Add/Overwrite DVLP$DISK:[HOMEDIR.WORK.BACKUP] to which number? (0-9) 9" NODENAME_HOMEDIR.WORK.BACKUP> cd 1 NODENAME_HOMEDIR> cd log NODENAME_HOMEDIR.LOGS> cd \u    1) DEV2:[OLDROB]a%  2) AAA_LINK:[AAA_LINK.PRODLIVE.BKUP]h#  9) DVLP$DISK:[HOMEDIR.WORK.BACKUP]   9 Add/Overwrite DEV2:[OLDROB.LOGS] to which number? (0-9) 8e NODENAME_HOMEDIR.LOGS> homet NODENAME_HOMEDIR> cd ?    1) DEV2:[OLDROB]6%  2) AAA_LINK:[AAA_LINK.PRODLIVE.BKUP]t  8) DEV2:[OLDROB.LOGS]#  9) DVLP$DISK:[HOMEDIR.WORK.BACKUP]n   Set Default to which number? 8   NODENAME_HOMEDIR.LOGS> cd 2a  NODENAME_AAA_LINK.PRODLIVE.BKUP>   $ cd??  F    ??  This screen                   ?    Listing of saved directories@     ,  Return prompt to a "$"        \    Save current directoryL     ]  Go to previous directory      0-9  Go to directory stored in 0 thru 99     <  Set def [-] then down         .    Set default [-]hM     |  List of previous directories  CD   by itself lists all subdirectories.t.     ;'symbol'  Translate "symbol" to directoryO     >"string"  Search prior visited directories. If matched, set default there.   D         See the bottom of this file for a more thorough explanation.   ---   B 	As you can see cd 8 or cd 2 , etc.. is a lot shorter key stroking> 	than attaching to processes.  Let me know if you want a copy.   				Roba   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:28:00 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)' Subject: Re: spawning a new environmentu< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0112302027.3a05fa1@posting.google.com>  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C2F865D.F12ABF81@videotron.ca>...CO > Is there a way to spawn a subprocess which first executes a command procedure   > and then gives me the $ sign ? > M > The goal is to setup the environment for the subprocess (default directory,XO > logicals, process_name (so I can attach back to it) and then get the standarde# > $ prompt to do what I want to do.. > 3 > what I want is the functional equivalent of this:p >  > $spawn/proc=chocolates; > 	$ @$disk2:[projects.cake.chocolate]setup_environment.como > 	$ > N > at which point I would have the standard DCL prompt. I could attach to other& > processes and come back to that one.  6 Try this (i.e., just make $SPAWN the last line of your setup_environment.com file):   $ TYPE SPAWN-CHOC.COMn $    HELLO = "HI"a $    SPAWN/PROC=CHOC   $ SPAWN @SPAWN-CHOC ) %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process FELDMAN_1 spawned ; %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process FELDMAN_1a$ %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process CHOC spawned6 %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process CHOC* $ SH SYM HELLO  ! (typed in at DCL prompt)   HELLO = "HI"* $ LO            ! (typed in at DCL prompt)4   Process CHOC logged out at 31-DEC-2001 03:57:56.936 %DCL-S-RETURNED, control returned to process FELDMAN_14 %DCL-S-RETURNED, control returned to process FELDMAN $ SH SYM HELLO= %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spellingl $t  N > I found that ATTACH is ideal when you are working on multiple directories atK > the same time and it is faster to just attach to the process in the righttL > directory than to constantly set def back and forth. And one need not deal  < Can't you just set up logical names for your directories? OrF (shameless plug alert!:), with TO.COM (a set default replacement), oneB only needs to run TO 1 or TO LAST to switch to the last directory,> which makes switching back and forth a breeze. Also, LAST is aB dynamically updated logical name that points to the last directory? that can be used in other commands (only part of one feature ofd TO.COM).  > > with cluttered windows and the cost to opening a new window.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmane afeldman $#$#$ gfigroup.comr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:35:29 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>p' Subject: Re: spawning a new environment:, Message-ID: <3C2FF91F.AFB8A299@videotron.ca>   Patrick Young wrote:9 >      "If both a command string and the /INPUT qualifiereB >      are specified, the specified command string executes beforeC >      additional commands are obtained from the /INPUT qualifier."i  1 Thanks. I should have read the manual :-) ;-) :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 16:03:09 -08001 From: Rich Alderson <alderson+rainnews@panix.com>-> Subject: Re: Standalone Teco (was Re: VMS on IA64 (technical))) Message-ID: <wwty9jktfwi.fsf@drizzle.com>H  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:e   > Hoff,D  L > Any chance you could squeeze in PDP-10 emulation so I could have a TOPS-20M > session as well? That way I could run the PDP-10 extended TECO in which theyJ > first version of EMACS was entirely written. Not to mention "TV" the DECO > screen mode editor version of TECO. Hey, the supported version of EDT on iVMSf) > could be TOPS-20 EDT in emulation mode.r   > [DECSYSTEM-20 CONTINUED]  M Just a reminder, Alan, that EMACS was implemented in MIT TECO, not any of the L various DEC versions.  MIT TECO is written in MIDAS rather than in MACRO-10,F and will require more than mere architecture support from an emulator. -- i? Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991o/ 				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)a= last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLCs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:10:23 +1100c+ From: "Barker, Joe L" <BarkerJL@az1.BP.COM> & Subject: Too Few Servers opcom messageL Message-ID: <BD58955D9312D311B45000805FFE424905DCD386@azmelx2.mel.az.bp.com>   How do I stop the opcom messageo   Message from user SYSTEM% Event: Too Few Servers Detected from:-  L From appearing in the operator log.  I have set        ncl> set dtss servers required 1       i- but the system still reports too few servers.r   Thanks,  Joe Barker.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:57:13 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> * Subject: Re: Too Few Servers opcom message, Message-ID: <3C2FA9CA.21288450@videotron.ca>   "Barker, Joe L" wrote: > ! > How do I stop the opcom messageb >  > Message from user SYSTEM' > Event: Too Few Servers Detected from:    PRODUCT REMOVE DECNET-5- PRODUCT INSTALL DECNET-4   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2001 18:32:09 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell)5* Subject: Re: Too Few Servers opcom message. Message-ID: <+OEWf4lHfVFB@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  z In article <BD58955D9312D311B45000805FFE424905DCD386@azmelx2.mel.az.bp.com>, "Barker, Joe L" <BarkerJL@az1.BP.COM> writes:! > How do I stop the opcom message  >  > Message from user SYSTEM' > Event: Too Few Servers Detected from:d > N > From appearing in the operator log.  I have set        ncl> set dtss servers > required 1       o/ > but the system still reports too few servers.s >  > Thanks,  Joe Barker.    * Sounds like you don't have *any*.  (0 < 1)   See TIME10 in the vms faq.        9   The OpenVMS FAQ is archived in the following locations:t  "     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/.     ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/comp.os.vms/,     comp.answers and news.answers newsgroups  A   Other internet FAQs are generally available in these locations:i  ,     comp.answers and news.answers newsgroups%     ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/...@  ?   User-created HTML versions of the OpenVMS FAQ are located at:V       http://www.kjsl.com/vmsfaq'     http://eisner.decus.org/vms/faq.html     -- iO =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)"O ===============================================================================oN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 21:08:52 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) P Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger3 Message-ID: <tIC3O9NI$knp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3C2F8355.67E62B01@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > GreyCloud wrote:K >> How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important an L >> operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMS- >> to Itanium will help keep it going strong.l > P > No, it will help maintain an acceptable downsizing rate. VMS hasn't been going; > strong since the introduction of the Apollo workstations.e  > 	Not so... a big niche that wasn't even around then has sprungB 	up, cellular phone billing.  Recent new niche is cell phone text E 	messaging and that is huge in Europe.  270 billion messages sent in <F 	2001.  Americans are trailing in that usage but soon we start playingC 	with text next year.  Funny, Americans big on cheap Internet usageeB 	and Europeans on the cutting edge of peer to peer text messaging.3 	Maybe because they have expensive Internet access?s   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:48:12 -0500L- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> P Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger, Message-ID: <3C2FFC1B.8E923B1B@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:J >         up, cellular phone billing.  Recent new niche is cell phone textM >         messaging and that is huge in Europe.  270 billion messages sent ineO >         2001.  Americans are trailing in that usage but soon we start playing  >         with text next year.  N The local GSM provider in Canada  doesn't seem to be using VMS. They advertise( for Unix and, of course Windows weenies.  J And a larger provider that is now controlled by AT&T used to be a VMS shop@ back in early 1990s but Digital allowed that account to go away.  ? Oh and by the way, SMS has been available in canada since 1997.e  K >         and Europeans on the cutting edge of peer to peer text messaging.a< >         Maybe because they have expensive Internet access?  J The local GSM provider switched their SMS pricing this year to effectivelyK kill it. At $0.10 per SMS, it is way too expensive for 160 characters. TheygN used to have a $2 per month package for SMS messages, but they took that away.K So the TAP software I had written on my vax is useless now. I refuse to payi $0.10 per message.  E In europe, it is exactly because they are used to expensive telephone H (measured service) and internet that they don't mind similar per-use SMSL charges. But in north america, people won't like it. It is going back to theN X.25 philosophy of charging per packet. Besides, GPRS is going to make much of SMS irrelevant.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500p( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed , Message-ID: <3C2FCB03.6090706@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:n   > Bill Todd wrote: > K >>'Overpriced'?  Not noticeably, compared with similar Unix configurations,.? >>and it consistently wins TCO comparisons with all contenders.: >> > N > In the few market niches where VMS is still allowed to play.  But what about2 > for desktops ? What about for small businesses ? >    JF,.  E We've been over this before.  We tried to get the people who set the iI prices to understand this issue.  They can only see a rack of relatively @C cheap DS10Ls being used in place of a more expensive department or  G enterprise class system.  So, you have VMS on a DS10 still being at or wH over a grand, or free for hobbyists.  Not really that bad for many, but G for the bottom end of the low end, perceived to be more expensive than o windoz.   D Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the I hobbyist program.  Can't do it, since a large part of windoz is for home  D use, and MS wants some small nik for each PC.  VMS is actually less D expensive in this area, but won't ever get credit for being so.  No  solitare and other games.   F Also, come up with an outdated system, say a VAX 6000 model 210.  Not H only a real dog, but can replace your heating system, and will make the C electric company very happy.  Try to get a VMS license for it, and vI you'll have to take out a second mortgage on the house.  No common sense  H at all in the pricing of VMS licenses.  There should be a sliding scale G based upon the age/generation of a system.  But, Compaq didn't listen. S$ Didn't even reply to the suggestion.  ! Gross mismanagement of a product.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC)t& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)r8 Message-ID: <ulpu2uc4vmedctpuhoh8npimt16hh3o5rj@4ax.com>  > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:46:44 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,0  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:  3 >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  >0L >>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At leastI >>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive andt >>difficult or something?f >t >Marketed dismally >Priced ridiculously' >Available only on proprietary hardwaret2 >Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC): >Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq), >Learnt only by people now in their fifties. >   >But it is more stable than Unix >More secure than Unix >More user friendly than Unixt >More clusterable than Unix.  I Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware. a   -- p1               ..        ..                  .'   b0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:23:51 GMT7* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)pB Message-ID: <bRJX7.157974$Zd.15040977@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  3 "drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in messageo2 news:ulpu2uc4vmedctpuhoh8npimt16hh3o5rj@4ax.com...@ > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:46:44 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,2 >  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: >=5 > >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquarel! > ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:" > >tH > >>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At leastoK > >>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and/ > >>difficult or something?- > >- > >Marketed dismally > >Priced ridiculously) > >Available only on proprietary hardwareb4 > >Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)< > >Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq). > >Learnt only by people now in their fifties. > >i" > >But it is more stable than Unix > >More secure than Unix > >More user friendly than Unixl > >More clusterable than Unix. >mJ > Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.  I 'Overpriced'?  Not noticeably, compared with similar Unix configurations,t= and it consistently wins TCO comparisons with all contenders.o  I 'Proprietary hardware'?  Not if you mean there's no second source (Intel,eF IBM, and Samsung built Alpha processors and Alpha Processor Inc. built entire systems).  H I don't think you know much about VMS.  But that just makes you typical.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:06:47 GMTc" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) > Message-ID: <rtKX7.14212$726.5883450@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Doc.Cypher wrote:o  D > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:C >>On 29 Dec 2001 11:26:46 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  >>wrote: >>J >>>>He says that he is often asked "when do you plan to retire" . He is 53 >>>>years old.E >>>> They cannot sack him even when the VMS machines eventually go inMF >>>> another 3 to 4 years .  Australian industrial law makes it almost: >>>> impossible to sack someone except for criminal acts . >>>> eI >>>> He found it funny in the beginning . After all, he has  little or noLL >>>> work to do, he has guaranteed  lifetime job security and receives a six >>>> figured
 >>>> salary .  >>>tJ >>>tell him we feel so sorry for him and send him our deepest sympathy now
 >>>that he no ; >>>longer operates on the most secure, reliable OS ever ...t >>G >>One of the problems is that the 20-somethings that they would hire ifC: >>he left would only need to be paid a 5 figure salary.... >>F >>BTW, I guess that you havent heard of Multics or its derivative STOP7 >>(a B3 rated system currently being used by the DOD ).t >>C >>Even SEVMS VAX Version 6.0 was only rated B2 ( and was never usedeG >>widely since it was obsolete when released. Steve Lipner worked on itpE >>IRC ) while OpenVMS Vax is rated even lower at C2 along with NT 3.5-
 >>and 4.0. >>7 >>http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/epl-by-class.htmly > C > You really are a pathetic troll. Why did you have to crosspost tosI > comp.os.linux.advocacy? Couldn't take on the C.O.V. all on your own? OreH > did you think it would be fun to try and start another set of OS wars? > G > BTW, if VMS is so insecure, why don't you hack the box at the addressn > below? >  > I How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important an rJ operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMS * to Itanium will help keep it going strong.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:15:19 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)pB Message-ID: <rBKX7.158193$Zd.15082714@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  / "GreyCloud" <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message(8 news:rtKX7.14212$726.5883450@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com...   ...o  J > How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important anK > operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMST, > to Itanium will help keep it going strong.  J It *already* isn't 'going strong'.  And the question is just how viable itG will be at all after two years of availability only on a dying platform * (assuming HP doesn't kill it before then).  L There's a big difference between 'not vanishing overnight' (which I agree itJ won't) and 'going strong' (a belief akin to a faith in hitting the lotteryJ jackpot).  Under current management it's likely that existing VMS use willK erode significantly over the next couple of years, and questionable whether 8 *any* significant *new* use will develop over that time.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:25:46 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>sY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)d5 Message-ID: <20011230202546.8161.qmail@gacracker.org>L  8 On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:  J >How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important an K >operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMS  + >to Itanium will help keep it going strong.r  I I find it hard to be positive about the future of VMS although I do agree J with you that it will be around for a while yet. My concern is the lack ofI marketing support from Compaq which gives people the impression they justeH don't care about the OS. I'd like to see the user base for VMS grow, andD support the folks in this newsgroup. I don't see how that can happen without advertising.  H As to the port, I approve wholeheartedly of VMS being ported to the IA64H platform - I just didn't like the steps leading up to, and forcing, said port.      Doc. -- d6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.neto   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100t, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)s8 Message-ID: <rq1v2u03tbuvdhh6dbfuanhr3nbkunqv8h@4ax.com>  2 On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:   >>Marketed dismallyr >>Priced ridiculouslyt( >>Available only on proprietary hardware3 >>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)M; >>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)M- >>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.M >>! >>But it is more stable than Unixy >>More secure than Unixs >>More user friendly than Unix >>More clusterable than Unix.n >iJ >Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.    Unfortunately true.o  F If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux? NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD  r<  ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.  E If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asu( common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC)o& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)g8 Message-ID: <vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com>  > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,0  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:  3 >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquaref ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:j >: >>>Marketed dismally >>>Priced ridiculously) >>>Available only on proprietary hardwaree4 >>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)< >>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq). >>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties. >>>N" >>>But it is more stable than Unix >>>More secure than Unix >>>More user friendly than Unix@ >>>More clusterable than Unix. >>K >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware. f >f >Unfortunately true. > G >If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linuxc@ >NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD  = > ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.T >FF >If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as) >common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....e  4 Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?   -- s1               ..        ..                  .'    0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:20:59 GMTs( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)oI Message-ID: <vjNX7.206182$WW.11961723@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>=  9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message=2 news:rq1v2u03tbuvdhh6dbfuanhr3nbkunqv8h@4ax.com...4 > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  > <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >  > >>Marketed dismallyn > >>Priced ridiculouslyg* > >>Available only on proprietary hardware5 > >>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)== > >>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)o/ > >>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.i > >># > >>But it is more stable than Unixa > >>More secure than Unix6  > >>More user friendly than Unix > >>More clusterable than Unix.a > >aK > >Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.N >n > Unfortunately true.o > H > If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux? > NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD > >  ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >gG > If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about ast* > common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....  K Are there any sites that offer VAX accounts? When I first got to UniversitygB I had to use VMS/VAX (and I still do), so I consider myself lucky!   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:29:39 GMTa( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds).I Message-ID: <DrNX7.206191$WW.11963146@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>t  / "GreyCloud" <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message 8 news:FTzX7.14186$726.5870883@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com... > Jerry Leslie wrote:e >c' > > rcarter (rcarter@zianet.com) wrote:s. > > : I wonder how long True64 will be around. > > :  > >3= > >    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2100182,00.htmle< > >    ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - HP brings Unixes together > >t  > >    HP brings Unixes together > >3& > >    15:29 Friday 30th November 2001 > >    Martin Veitch, IT Weekl > >oL > >   "The HP-UX system will form the bulk of the post-merger company's Unix > >    server offering > >iL > >    Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm'sL > >    Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.E > >    This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix asaI > >    elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced,l the 2 > >    AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..." > >a. > >    http://www.theinquirer.net/28120102.htm$ > >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs > >i$ > >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs > >    HP or no HP > >e- > >    By Mike Magee, 28/12/2001 09:32:14 BSTa > >hL > >   "SOURCES AT COMPAQ Germany tell the INQUIRER that the firm is readyingJ > >    layoffs of staff working on its version of Unix, Tru64, whether theF > >    takeover deal between it and Hewlett Packard happens or not..." > >  > >eE > A sad day when we see perfectly good designs being flushed down them toilet.u  L In a similiar note, any OS that uses 'anal' as one of it's commands is ok in my book!   :^)d   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:44:59 GMT ( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)eI Message-ID: <%FNX7.206214$WW.11965043@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>-  3 "drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message82 news:vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com...@ > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,2 >  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: >05 > >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquaret! > ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:a > >c > >>>Marketed dismally > >>>Priced ridiculously+ > >>>Available only on proprietary hardware 6 > >>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)> > >>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)0 > >>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties. > >>>n$ > >>>But it is more stable than Unix > >>>More secure than Unix! > >>>More user friendly than Unixc  > >>>More clusterable than Unix. > >>L > >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware. > >s > >Unfortunately true. > > I > >If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linuxt@ > >NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD? > > ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.y > >tH > >If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as+ > >common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....s >a6 > Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?  2 Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:45:20 +0000 (UTC)t& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a8 Message-ID: <bjdv2uoa1temsf2tv63llk8bjl8csde0f1@4ax.com>  < On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:44:59 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,,  ("Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>) wrote:  4 >"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message3 >news:vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com...S >i% >> >>>But it is more stable than Unixr >> >>>More secure than Unixt" >> >>>More user friendly than Unix! >> >>>More clusterable than Unix.0 >> >>FM >> >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.  >> > >> >Unfortunately true.  >> >J >> >If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxA >> >NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDa@ >> > ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >> >I >> >If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asp, >> >common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... >>7 >> Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?t >s3 >Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced.0  ' Why doesn't someone else write a clone?r   -- r1               ..        ..                  .'   i0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:49:49 -0500n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C2FC43D.9040908@tsoft-inc.com>   GreyCloud wrote:   > Jerry Leslie wrote:  >  > % >>rcarter (rcarter@zianet.com) wrote: , >>: I wonder how long True64 will be around. >>:  >>; >>   http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2100182,00.html.: >>   ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - HP brings Unixes together >> >>   HP brings Unixes together >>$ >>   15:29 Friday 30th November 2001 >>   Martin Veitch, IT Week  >>J >>  "The HP-UX system will form the bulk of the post-merger company's Unix >>   server offering >>J >>   Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm'sJ >>   Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.C >>   This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix ashK >>   elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced, the.0 >>   AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..." >>, >>   http://www.theinquirer.net/28120102.htm" >>   Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs >>" >>   Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs >>   HP or no HP >>+ >>   By Mike Magee, 28/12/2001 09:32:14 BST. >>J >>  "SOURCES AT COMPAQ Germany tell the INQUIRER that the firm is readyingH >>   layoffs of staff working on its version of Unix, Tru64, whether theD >>   takeover deal between it and Hewlett Packard happens or not..." >> >> >>M > A sad day when we see perfectly good designs being flushed down the toilet.E >  >   F And even sadder when the designs being flushed are not just good, but G superior to the competition.  Tru64 and Alpha.  I also fear that there  ) are those who'd really like to flush VMS.n   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:52:32 -0500s( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C2FC4E0.7070205@tsoft-inc.com>   GreyCloud wrote:   > rcarter wrote: >  > L >>I wonder how long True64 will be around. Compaq has already announced theyK >>will stop making Alpha chips - it's a lot cheaper to buy an intel box andSH >>run Linux. At work we are in the process of replacing our aging AlphasG >>with Dell supplied RH7.1 boxes - much faster, fairly inexpensive, andr" >>minimal porting problems so far. >> >> >>N > Compaq is porting OpenVMS and Tru64 to the Itanium.  But by the time Compaq L > is ready to implement its port, Intel will have a better Itanium out... I N > hope.  But I think its still a big mistake to dump the Alpha chip... sounds 7 > to me more like PPM (Piss Poor Management) at Compaq. H > Uh,... ever seen the price of an Itanium built box?? They ain't cheap. >  >   C And those faster, inexpensive, IA-32 boxes will keep them that way.>   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:06:07 -0500t( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)o, Message-ID: <3C2FC80F.6080004@tsoft-inc.com>   drsquare wrote:b  @ > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:46:44 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,2 >  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: >  > 4 >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> >>M >>>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At least-J >>>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and >>>difficult or something? >>>o >>Marketed dismallyn >>Priced ridiculously ( >>Available only on proprietary hardware3 >>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)i; >>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)s- >>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.  >>! >>But it is more stable than Unixt >>More secure than Unixm >>More user friendly than Unix >>More clusterable than Unix.I >> > K > Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware. , >  >    As for overpriced:  E At the top end, it's not too bad, after all you get what you pay for.v  F At the lower end, the pricing is based upon not having a bunch of low G cost systems replace higher cost systems, not upon bringing more users @& into the environment.  A real mistake.  H As for non-commercial use, unless you find someone to pay you to use an  OS, it's price cannot be beat.  E Hardware?  It's all proprietary.  Manufacturers of CPUs include IBM,  H Compaq, HP, Intel, AMD, to name a few.  And, if you try to manufacturer I any of those mentioned without authorization from the owner, prepare for l3 the need of legal aid, which won't do you any good.o  I Can you name one CPU design that's public domain?  Or whatever else that '/ you might decide to define as nonb-proprietary?h   Dave   -- e4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:46 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C2FCB42.4040908@tsoft-inc.com>   israel r t wrote:V  4 > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  > <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >  >  >>>Marketed dismally >>>Priced ridiculously) >>>Available only on proprietary hardwaret4 >>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)< >>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq). >>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties. >>>d" >>>But it is more stable than Unix >>>More secure than Unix >>>More user friendly than Unixo >>>More clusterable than Unix. >>> K >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware. e >> >  > Unfortunately true.l > H > If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxA > NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD  h> >  ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. > G > If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about aso* > common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... >   A I've got a few that would go rather cheap.  How many do you want?    Dave   -- t4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:26:30 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)l, Message-ID: <3C2FCCD6.3040600@tsoft-inc.com>   drsquare wrote:t  @ > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,2 >  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: >  > 4 >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>>>Marketed dismallyt >>>>Priced ridiculously * >>>>Available only on proprietary hardware5 >>>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)n= >>>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq) / >>>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.i >>>># >>>>But it is more stable than Unixl >>>>More secure than Unix   >>>>More user friendly than Unix >>>>More clusterable than Unix.( >>>>L >>>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.  >>>  >>Unfortunately true.2 >>H >>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxA >>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD  c= >>( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.> >>G >>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asr* >>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... >> > 6 > Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? >  >   H Some of the most important parts of your windoz systems are not part of I MS Windows.  Many device drivers are provided by the manufacturer of the oI device.  They do this in order to sell their devices to all those windoz LG users out there.  They do not provide drivers for any other OS, that I e know of.  = Not sure how this is handled for Linux and the other unicies.M  B VMS on IA-32 isn't the major issue.  Drivers for devices on IA-32 H systems running VMS is the biggest issue.  Having such devices actually H match their declared specifications is another major issue.  Windoz may D not use all options in a specification, and therefore get away with G using the device.  VMS will use any and all stated capabilities in the  G interest of performance.  Many devices that are used on windoz systems b will die on a VMS system.    Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:51:09 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 3 Message-ID: <R+yGfa9Q78Bs@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  c In article <URzX7.14185$726.5870956@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:g > rcarter wrote: > M >> I wonder how long True64 will be around. Compaq has already announced they L >> will stop making Alpha chips - it's a lot cheaper to buy an intel box andI >> run Linux. At work we are in the process of replacing our aging AlphaseH >> with Dell supplied RH7.1 boxes - much faster, fairly inexpensive, and# >> minimal porting problems so far.  >> i >>  N > Compaq is porting OpenVMS and Tru64 to the Itanium.  But by the time Compaq L > is ready to implement its port, Intel will have a better Itanium out... I N > hope.  But I think its still a big mistake to dump the Alpha chip... sounds 7 > to me more like PPM (Piss Poor Management) at Compaq.cH > Uh,... ever seen the price of an Itanium built box?? They ain't cheap.  > 	Yes... but initally they weren't meant to be.  Deerfield will= 	introduce a cheap Itanium box.  We kicked around 4 processorSF 	Itanium versus 4 processor Alpha and the Dell Itanium is considerablyC 	cheaper (16 GBytes of RAM).  Of course the argument then turns to g= 	performance capability and yes, they are still a ways apart.(   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 20:56:26 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)-3 Message-ID: <3JDzjJP+cmoY@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  a In article <jj8u2uc0pm8f22ud0cp2sh7bnmaj2on9hg@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:t   > 5 > What actually makes VMS any better than other OSes?$ >    	A real filesystem.p   			Rob   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:35:11 GMT7L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 8 Message-ID: <00A074F9.F10AB06C@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  t In article <%FNX7.206214$WW.11965043@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> writes: > 4 >"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message3 >news:vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com...fA >> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,i3 >>  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:u >>6 >> >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare" >> ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> > >> >>>Marketed dismallyl >> >>>Priced ridiculouslyi, >> >>>Available only on proprietary hardware7 >> >>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC) ? >> >>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq) 1 >> >>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.  >> >>>% >> >>>But it is more stable than Unixm >> >>>More secure than Unix " >> >>>More user friendly than Unix! >> >>>More clusterable than Unix.  >> >> M >> >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.  >> > >> >Unfortunately true.i >> >J >> >If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxA >> >NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDe@ >> > ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >> >I >> >If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as , >> >common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....  L VMS has run on Alpha since 1993 or thereabouts.  I am currently logged in toK my home VMS machine, which is a third-party Alpha workstation (bought from sJ Island Computers for about $1500), using the free EDU license for VMS and M layered products including TCP/IP software, compilers, and other goodies.  (I20 could also have used the free hobbyist license.)  M You can buy VAXes on eBAY pretty cheap, but you can buy Alphas on eBAY prettyt
 cheap too.   >>7 >> Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?s   >t3 >Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced.e > M Compaq is porting it to Itanium and has made noises about sub-1k workstations I in a few years.  It's not completely clear that Itaniums are going to be cH commodity hardware, though - there's an ongoing argument in comp.os.vms.   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056nM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================9   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 06:11:20 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a; Message-ID: <3c2ff378.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>h  ' drsquare (nowhere@nowhere.co.uk) wrote:d+ > "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> wrote:-. > >"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote...A > >> > If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax : > >> > ( about as common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... > >>9 > >> Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?o > > 6 > > Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced. >,) > Why doesn't someone else write a clone?t  C There is an effort to do just this [1], but to implement an OS fromuB scratch that has reached this level of sophistication is a clearly non-trivial task...>   cu,s   Martin  ) [1] http://freshmeat.net/projects/freevms>     http://freevms.free.fr --  F                           | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3  Cetero censeo            | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F  Redmondem delendam esse. |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:                           | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:37:57 -0500.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)y, Message-ID: <3C2F7B24.79D9A556@videotron.ca>   GreyCloud wrote:M > Compaq is porting OpenVMS and Tru64 to the Itanium.  But by the time CompaqcK > is ready to implement its port, Intel will have a better Itanium out... I M > hope.  But I think its still a big mistake to dump the Alpha chip... sounds'7 > to me more like PPM (Piss Poor Management) at Compaq.   L You and I may not like it, but I am convinced that it is part of a long termL plan and Compaq is just executing that plan. Few companies today are capableI of long term plans, and one has to give it to Compaq management for that.   K Once they had decided that Compaq was going to stick to "industry standard" I stuff, there was really no turning back.  My only question is whether the0L erosion of Tru64 and VMS will be going according to plans or whether it will2 go faster with the recent decisions/announcements.  H I can understand Compaq wanting to go back to its roots so it can battleI against Dell. What I don't understand though is why HP seems so intent ono3 dropping enterprise stuff to focus on wintel stuff.1   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:45:12 -0500H- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)f, Message-ID: <3C2F7CD7.D08A1B0A@videotron.ca>   drsquare wrote:i5 > What actually makes VMS any better than other OSes?a  L First thing that comes to mind is its documentation and language independant system services.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:11:25 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>1Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C2F82FA.6C936432@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:K > 'Overpriced'?  Not noticeably, compared with similar Unix configurations, ? > and it consistently wins TCO comparisons with all contenders.t  L In the few market niches where VMS is still allowed to play.  But what about0 for desktops ? What about for small businesses ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:12:56 -0500g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>iY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)l, Message-ID: <3C2F8355.67E62B01@videotron.ca>   GreyCloud wrote:J > How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important anK > operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMS., > to Itanium will help keep it going strong.  N No, it will help maintain an acceptable downsizing rate. VMS hasn't been going9 strong since the introduction of the Apollo workstations.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:11:01 GMT-0 From: "brad.madison" <brad.madison@mail.tds.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)l, Message-ID: <3C2FD743.EC4CC115@mail.tds.net>   Jerry Leslie wrote:a > % > rcarter (rcarter@zianet.com) wrote:A, > : I wonder how long True64 will be around. > :  > ; >    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2100182,00.htmle: >    ZDNet |UK| - News - Story - HP brings Unixes together >  >    HP brings Unixes together > $ >    15:29 Friday 30th November 2001 >    Martin Veitch, IT Week  > J >   "The HP-UX system will form the bulk of the post-merger company's Unix >    server offering > J >    Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX is to continue to form the bulk of the firm'sJ >    Unix offering after the acquisition of Compaq is completed next year.C >    This will mean upheaval for firms using Compaq's Tru64 Unix aspK >    elements of Tru64 are added to HP-UX and, as previously announced, the00 >    AlphaServer family is slowly phased out..." > , >    http://www.theinquirer.net/28120102.htm" >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs > " >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs >    HP or no HP > + >    By Mike Magee, 28/12/2001 09:32:14 BST  > J >   "SOURCES AT COMPAQ Germany tell the INQUIRER that the firm is readyingH >    layoffs of staff working on its version of Unix, Tru64, whether theD >    takeover deal between it and Hewlett Packard happens or not..." > 6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)  C Does anyone recall how the merger of HP and Convex went?  Was there0E another merger in HP's past?  ISTR disgruntled customers of the other G company when HP Unix failed to supply features they learned to love (itA' could be the other company was Convex).    --< Unfortunately, the least intelligent are the most tenacious.= --Erik Warmelink, in news.admin.net-abuse.email (15-Dec-2001)a  ? Run a spam honeypot.  It's basically as simple as: sendmail -bdtC See: http://fightrelayspam.homestead.com/files/antispam06122001.htme   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2001 13:20:18 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0112301320.46f306e1@posting.google.com>t  u martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote in message news:<3c2f5372.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>... + > Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:e9 > > martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote... / > > > Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) wrote:oN > > > > what is weird about about sending html mail?  For us vms users who runF > > > > web apps on vms, this is needed, and this is the way to do it! > > > K > > > If you want to send SMTP mail, why not send it to a (locally running)nJ > > > SMTP server? That's how all my (Perl) web apps do it - and it's evenK > > > portable, should I ever feel the urge to put them on a *ix or WinDozea > > > box (which I won't). > > > M > > > Of course doing this from DCL will probably be hard, if not impossible.  > >hM > > our smtp server is vms based ... there is nothing hard about sending smtp ; > > mail from vms ... you send as you would on any platforma >  ...M > > what we are talking about is how to send mime/html meassages from vms webE > > apps > J > I know. Think I haven't made my point very clear, or did I? What I meantJ > by "SMTP mail" is the ability to set up all the header lines you want. IJ > do this by directly talking SMTP to an SMTP server. In Perl, it's easilyH > done using the Net::SMTP module. And from time to time, a virtual hostG > has to be transfered to a *ix or Win box, and the perl solution still0 > works. > L > > which by using the above subject line trick works great ... nothing hardI > > about any of it, so why by a junk windoze box when vms can do it all?d > H > Who said anything about a WinDoze box? My SMTP server is a VMS system,H > of course. A DNS tool once complained that the zones I administer onlyG > have one MX record - but I only need one :-) Okay, I'll soon transfer>/ > them onto a two-node cluster - even better...l > K > > VMS can be a web server, mail server, and proxy server, all at the sameaN > > time! Use Tcpware as your IP stack, Purveyor or Apache as your web server,% > > and that is all you'll ever need!L > " > Talking just for me: yes, it is. > F > But as a webmaster working in a company doing web hosting: there areI > customers out there that do want to use ASP and FrontPage, or only feel G > at home under *ix... But then, the WinDoze/*ix administration is some # > other guys' job - I pity them ;-)h >  > cu,a
 >   Martin  K I want vms mail so I can spawn mail commands from a dcl or dibol script ...eH I don't want to have to learn perl when dcl and dibol can do anything I - need them to when it comes to cgi scripts ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:19:07 -0500-% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> * Subject: Re: VMS Mail sends HTML messages!/ Message-ID: <u2vbo185jl1430@news.supernews.com>   D Yes, it sure seems like this would be function of the SMTP<->VMSMailG handler.  I encountered this problem when I moved our web server from a2H machine running VMS 7.2 and MX V5.? to a machine running VMS V7.3 and MXI V5.2.  I *think* the old machine was running MX V5.2 but it may have been . running V5.1.  It's gone now so I can't check.  E So, it seems that either VMS 7.3 or MX 5.2 breaks this.  Or, possiblyt something else.>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:qchC7wXyS4dJ@eisner.encompasserve.org...pC > Wouldn't that be a function of a particular TCP/IP package rather  > than VMS V7.3 ?h >UJ > VMS Mail should not be able to tell whether XYZ% goes to TCP/IP or X.25. >u@ > In article <u2podqsrkjin87@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:H > > MIME headers are being added to VMSmail messages so the MIME headers hidden  > > in the subject are not used. > > B > > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message3 > > news:3C2CB4E0.DD3C7B86@swissonline.delete.ch...t
 > >> John, > >>L > >> What breaks and in what way ?  Is it with the html header stuff or does > >> something else fail ? > >> > >> > >> John McLean > >> > >> > >> John Vottero wrote: > >> >2 > >> > Don't get too excited, this breaks in V7.3. > >> >< > >> > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message> > >> > news:d7791aa1.0112271655.42c7dfea@posting.google.com...L > >> > > someone posted this awhile ago on this site ... I needed to send an > > htmlI > >> > > confirmation message to customers on our site and found a simpler wayx	 > > to doh
 > >> > it!0 > >> > > this was what was originally posted ... > >> > > > >> > > $ cr[0,8] = 13n > >> > >    $ lf[0,8] = 105 > >> > >    $ subject = "This is a test." + cr + lf -e0 > >> > >    _$ + "Mime-Version: 1.0" + cr + lf -. > >> > >    _$ + "Content-Type: text/enriched"& > >> > >    $ write sys$output subject > >> > >    This is a test.t > >> > >    Mime-Version: 1.0e' > >> > >    Content-Type: text/enriched + > >> > >    $ mail/subject="''subject'" tt:y! "SMTP%""anybody@xyzcompany.com"""eK > >> > >    Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/CF to > >> > >    quit:l" > >> > >    <bold>Sometimes</bold>2 > >> > >    <x-color><param>red</param>I</x-color>/ > >> > >    even amaze <italic>myself</italic>!-2 > >> > >    ctrl-Z <-- i.e., here I typed a ctrl-z
 > >> > >    $s > >> > > > >> > >8 > >> > > just do this, changing "enriched" to "html" ...F > >> > > if you create in any language a variable and define it as the
 > > followingg
 > >> > ... > >> > >G > >> > > SUB = 'Web Order<CR><LF>Mime-Version: 1.0<CR><LF>Content-Type:m > > text/html' > >> > >J > >> > > and use this variable as the subject content in the mail command, then > > youw
 > >> > canJ > >> > > send an html based file as a the message and it works great!  The	 > > aboveaJ > >> > > <CR><LF> were created w/EDT GOLD KEY, then type decimal 13 or 10, then > > EDTf- > >> > > GOLD 3 (specins) ... it's that easy!i > >o > >  > -- > L ============================================================================ ==K > The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anythingoL >      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willK >      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings.J >      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival  >      of the online community." >.L ============================================================================ ==   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 04:41:45 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)- Message-ID: <87ellcqw3a.fsf@prep.synonet.com>-  / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:-  ] > In article <u2mlkaf2ftri4c@corp.supernews.com>, "Mike Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com> writes:P > > @ > >     I know of at least one person, Dave Cantor, who is still/ > >     submitting bug reports on TECO to Andy.0 > F > For which other VMS editors can anyone name the current maintainer ?   So where IS Brian nowdays?   -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.726 ************************