1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 28 Feb 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 117       Contents: Alitalia web site hacked Backups problem... Re: Backups problem... Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bid  Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bid  RE: Compaq wins APAC re-bid  RE: Compaq wins APAC re-bid  Re: DCL content (long) Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirt Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirt' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later  Re: forum.compaq.com8 HELP-VAX VMS 5.4 BACKUP Tape reader for WinNT machine ??8 HELP-VAX VMS 5.4 BACKUP Tape reader for WinNT machine ??D RE: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag	e?D RE: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag	e?C Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web page? P RE: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0P Re: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0 Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations + My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater. / Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater. 7 Re: Need to get new mail count ? with a pipe expression  new freeware: SIPU.COMB Re: Now: Where are the VMS apps? Was: 1.2 GHz Alpha Microprocessor  Re: Possible security hole in...  Re: Possible security hole in...  Re: Possible security hole in...  Re: Possible security hole in...  Re: Possible security hole in...0 Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE" Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32" Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32" Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32( Re: RTR now licesnsed as part of OpenVMS0 Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' RE: Tivoli on VMS  Re: Tivoli on VMS  UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist. UK DECUS Workshops - University of Warwick, UKH Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High SearchEngine...)H Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High SearchEngine...) Re: VMS apps wishlist  Re: VMS apps wishlist  Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list.F Re: VMS wanted list. Was: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop'F Re: VMS wanted list. Was: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop'  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:58:21 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Alitalia web site hacked , Message-ID: <3A9C937A.7D830136@videotron.ca>  7 As of 05:00 GMT, the Alitalia web site has been hacked.    According to netcraft:I The site www.alitalia.com is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4/Windows 98.    And the front page now reads: C Always late in takeoffs always late in arrivals.... hacked by z0r80    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:32:01 -0300 1 From: "Valdemir J. Santos" <valdemir-@uol.com.br>  Subject: Backups problem... 5 Message-ID: <002101c0a12e$a2c59840$fe09bfc8@valdemir>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C0A115.7C51E1A0  Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   H In my job I have one Alphaserver DS20, with 36GB (five disks with 9 GB =	 each -=20   % RAID Array - one disk is losted ).=20   C I use DLT drive to backup this machine all nights. (40 GB default =  capacity/80 GB   compressed capacity).   ' In last days,  I receive this message :   &   Please mount volume 2 in MKB600: =20  J  My question: What=B4s happening with my backups ? I use 40 GB cartridge = to=20   F  backup lass than 36 GB, but the backup routine is wanting for other = cartridge !   =  Trying solve the problem, I put in the backup=B4s procedure:   3  $ init/media_format=3Dcompaction mkb600:  magtape1   @  With no success. Is there any ghost in my system ????    :-)=20   Thank you in advance !      + ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C0A115.7C51E1A0  Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>3 <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =  http-equiv=3DContent-Type>9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>  <STYLE></STYLE>  </HEAD>  <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>I <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my job I have one Alphaserver DS20, =  with 36GB=20* (five disks with 9 GB each - </FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> E <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>RAID Array - one disk is losted ). = 
 </FONT></DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> I <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I use DLT drive to backup this machine =  all nights.=20* (40 GB default capacity/80 GB</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> C <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>compressed capacity).</FONT></DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> E <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In last days,&nbsp; I receive this = 
 message=20 :</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> B <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; Please mount volume 2 in = MKB600:&nbsp;=20
 </FONT></DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> H <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;My question: What=B4s happening = with my backups=20( ? I use 40 GB cartridge to </FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> H <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;backup lass than 36 GB, but the =	 backup=20 5 routine is wanting for other cartridge !</FONT></DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> H <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Trying solve the problem, I put =	 in the=20 " backup=B4s procedure:</FONT></DIV>4 <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>I <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;$ init/media_format=3Dcompaction =  mkb600:&nbsp;=20 magtape1</FONT></DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> F <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;With no success. Is there any = ghost in my=204 system ????&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> D <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you in advance !</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>   - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C0A115.7C51E1A0--    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:50:20 GMT ' From: "Bill R. King" <brking@flash.net>  Subject: Re: Backups problem... % Message-ID: <3A9C6633.31CA@flash.net>   	 Valdemir:   B The capacity of a 40/80GB cartridge is dependent on the drive thatC writes the cartridge. For DLT drives, the uncompressed capacity is:    1. DLT4000 drive: 20GB 2. DLT7000 drive: 35GB 3. DLT8000 drive: 40GB  G If you are using a DLT8000 drive and are getting less than 40GB, backup G your files with all compression turned off. It is not unusual for image E files to 'grow' when either software or the drive attempt to compress  them.    I hope this helps.    
 Good luck.   Bill   Bill R. King, P.E. Data Recovery International  2621 Brookridge Drive  Hurst, TX, 76054-2761  USA   Tel 817-281-8901 Fax 817-656-0079   http://www.datarecover.com brking@datarecover.com brking@flash.net  D Specializing in 9-track, 3480/3490/3490E, DLT, 8mm, and 4mm DAT data	 recovery.    Valdemir J. Santos wrote:  > H > In my job I have one Alphaserver DS20, with 36GB (five disks with 9 GB > each - > $ > RAID Array - one disk is losted ). > C > I use DLT drive to backup this machine all nights. (40 GB default  > capacity/80 GB >  > compressed capacity).  > ) > In last days,  I receive this message :  > $ >   Please mount volume 2 in MKB600: > H >  My question: Whats happening with my backups ? I use 40 GB cartridge > to > F >  backup lass than 36 GB, but the backup routine is wanting for other
 > cartridge !  > = >  Trying solve the problem, I put in the backups procedure:  > 3 >  $ init/media_format=compaction mkb600:  magtape1  > ? >  With no success. Is there any ghost in my system ????    :-)  >  > Thank you in advance ! >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:07:36 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>$ Subject: Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bid* Message-ID: <3A9BFAF8.8ED3AE73@uk.sun.com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > L > Only Andrew could beat someone up for making an incorrect assumption, then6 > reveal that the truth was easily as damaging..... :) >   4 Really, only someone who is a OpenVMS advocate could/ have read my response as being "The Sun failed  / its acceptance tests for performance reasons" .   + Read my posting, no where does it say what  2 performance was the reason for the failure of the  acceptance tests.   / You can do better than this Shane and normally  2 do, don't let your standards slip to Rob or Kerrys level.  % > Incedentally it is quite common for & > HPC systems to fail their acceptance' > tests for performance reasons, one of * > the first customers for E10K's in Europe* > replaced an Origin 2000 cluster that had- > failed its acceptance tests for performance 
 > reasons.  , Where does this say that performance was the reason for the failure ????? Regards    Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:26:33 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com $ Subject: Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bidD Message-ID: <OF01352A9C.F3F92228-ON88256A00.006AADCE@foundation.com>  K My apologies, but if you read your text it does appear to be implied. Would 5 you care to explain why Sun really lost the contract?    Shane           D andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> on 02/27/2001 11:07:36 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   % Subject:  Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bid     " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > G > Only Andrew could beat someone up for making an incorrect assumption,  then6 > reveal that the truth was easily as damaging..... :) >   4 Really, only someone who is a OpenVMS advocate could. have read my response as being "The Sun failed/ its acceptance tests for performance reasons" .   * Read my posting, no where does it say what1 performance was the reason for the failure of the  acceptance tests.   . You can do better than this Shane and normally2 do, don't let your standards slip to Rob or Kerrys level.  % > Incedentally it is quite common for & > HPC systems to fail their acceptance' > tests for performance reasons, one of * > the first customers for E10K's in Europe* > replaced an Origin 2000 cluster that had- > failed its acceptance tests for performance 
 > reasons.  , Where does this say that performance was the reason for the failure ????? Regards    Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:35:37 -0600 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> $ Subject: RE: Compaq wins APAC re-bidN Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284E7A@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,   H >>>> Where does this say that performance was the reason for the failure ?????<<<  E As Shane mentioned, if performance was not the reason for failing the E acceptance tests, then it must have been issues related to uptime, or  delivery or ???   E Perhaps you could clarify which was the real issue so we do not blame  performance as the reason?   :-)    Thx,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]  Sent: February 27, 2001 2:08 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ Subject: Re: Compaq wins APAC re-bid    " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > L > Only Andrew could beat someone up for making an incorrect assumption, then6 > reveal that the truth was easily as damaging..... :) >   4 Really, only someone who is a OpenVMS advocate could/ have read my response as being "The Sun failed  / its acceptance tests for performance reasons" .   + Read my posting, no where does it say what  2 performance was the reason for the failure of the  acceptance tests.   / You can do better than this Shane and normally  2 do, don't let your standards slip to Rob or Kerrys level.  % > Incedentally it is quite common for & > HPC systems to fail their acceptance' > tests for performance reasons, one of * > the first customers for E10K's in Europe* > replaced an Origin 2000 cluster that had- > failed its acceptance tests for performance 
 > reasons.  , Where does this say that performance was the reason for the failure ????? Regards    Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 14:59:06 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) $ Subject: RE: Compaq wins APAC re-bid3 Message-ID: <sGq4+PvHi6+9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   | In article <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284E7A@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes:	 > Andrew,  > I >>>>> Where does this say that performance was the reason for the failure 
 > ?????<<< > G > As Shane mentioned, if performance was not the reason for failing the G > acceptance tests, then it must have been issues related to uptime, or  > delivery or ???  > G > Perhaps you could clarify which was the real issue so we do not blame  > performance as the reason? >    	Reason for failure?   	Two words:  Zinc Whiskers   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:49:09 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: DCL content (long) L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2702012349090001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <01K0M88KWNCY00ACL5@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:    0 > Just trying to get c.o.v. back to what it was.  G Thanks for posting.  It looks interesting.  I've saved it for digestion 	 tomorrow.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:20:36 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>' Subject: Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirt & Message-ID: <3A9C445D.60107@wi.rr.com>  A Supply and demand in the used market changes too quickly to post   accurate prices K on a website.  A person from Island emailed me and admitted that the prices J that they advertise online are not 100% accurate and that you have to call- for the real price at that particular moment.   E I don't shop web pages for Storageworks parts.  We're running a very   large enterprise on these 6 systems, not a little DEC 3000 in somebody's basement.   -s   Arne Vajhj wrote:   > Scott Vieth wrote: > I >> p.s.  Island charges too much for their new StorageWorks drives.  Call * >> Great Lakes and get a much better deal. >  > C > Then they are bad at marketing, because they do not supply prices  > at their web-site !  > 7 > Unlike www.islandco.com where you can see the prices.  >  > Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:54:24 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)' Subject: Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirt L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2702012354240001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  L In article <3A9C445D.60107@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote:  G > I don't shop web pages for Storageworks parts.  We're running a very   > large enterprise on these 8 > systems, not a little DEC 3000 in somebody's basement.  4 YOU BETTER apologize to both my DEC 3000s RIGHT NOW!    :-)  % And besides, I don't have a basement.   . The snobbery in this NG is getting intense....    :-)   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:13:29 GMT & From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <ZLUm6.1046$CP4.192534@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  J And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose, butI obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD no longer  requires it for contracts.    Just my opinion,   Rick Cadruvi...i  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:wrCvgGxaSLv9@eisner.encompasserve.org...tJ > In article <XyEm6.896$be1.355692@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:pK > > I find this an interesting discussion.  It would be useful if you woulde > > suggestbL > > a more modern language (or series of them) that you think is superior to! > > developing software in C/C++.  >p > Ada. >eG > Currently that means Ada95, but even the older Ada83 standard used byCF > Compaq Ada does pretty well.  The major different (if one avoids anyH > discussions of object oriented programming) is that the extensions DECJ > added to Ada83 are often not necessary in Ada95 since there are standard9 > mechanisms to do the same thing (making them portable).e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:34:48 +0000a) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9C2B88.8032D829@infopuls.com>   Rick Cadruvi wrote:   J > I find this an interesting discussion.  It would be useful if you would G > suggest a more modern language (or series of them) that you think is  + > superior to developing software in C/C++.r  C > No language is perfect.  There are many good and bad points in C.nF > I write LOTs of useful software in C and I have designed and written> > other languages.  I do think your comments are based on your > prejudices not reality.   J > C works fine if you write simply contructed code.  For lots of differentN > types of development there are lots of different and perhaps better choices.I > It would be useful to hear your choices for different types of softwaretL > development.  Make a list and specify what the newer language works better0 > for in terms of areas of software development.  L > And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose, butK > obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD no longerT > requires it for contracts. >  > Just my opinion, >  > Rick Cadruvi...e > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:wrCvgGxaSLv9@eisner.encompasserve.org...oL > > In article <XyEm6.896$be1.355692@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" > <rick@rdperf.com> writes:aM > > > I find this an interesting discussion.  It would be useful if you wouldg
 > > > suggest.N > > > a more modern language (or series of them) that you think is superior to# > > > developing software in C/C++.  > >M > > Ada. > > I > > Currently that means Ada95, but even the older Ada83 standard used byaH > > Compaq Ada does pretty well.  The major different (if one avoids anyJ > > discussions of object oriented programming) is that the extensions DECL > > added to Ada83 are often not necessary in Ada95 since there are standard; > > mechanisms to do the same thing (making them portable).a   JF Mezei wrote:    > re: C is no good..  P > I think that C and C++ are getting a bad rap because that is the language usedF > by inexperienced PC weanies who are asked to write serious software.  M > I've had discussions with C++ programmers on a different platform who sworekO > that because the hardware was designed for C++, that it was impossible to use-M > C to program and use system services on that platform since C was unable tomN > access the object oriented hardware of that platform :-). They obviously hadL > no concept of what compilers are nor the concept of what assembler/machine > language is.  @ > Should you blame C++ or the inexpereinced programmers for such > misunderstanding ?  O > If a programmer has never programmed on a multi tasking system and is used toBP > constantly polling the serial port to see if a a character has arrived, shouldM > you expect him to be able to program on a real multi tasking machine in any8 > language ?  : I'm too late. Ada won against C in a several years lasting? comparison within the same company. The comparison was based ons= scrutiny and analysis of the results. I'm not a friend of Ada ? but I think the language is pretty okay although they made someh design mistakes.  0 To state a few things about logic of discussion:@ - To show projects that failed or bad practices of inexperienced? programmers is no proof against any PL because it is impossible  to prevend abusing it.? - Even if my comments were only based on prejudice stating thist@ is no point (and the question remains where this prejudice comes from).; - A PL is always a compromise between power and complexity..> Their might be people who can write RISC assembly language but@ this is not the audience for a multipurpose PL. My target is the4 high quality, well educated, responsible programmer.  9 I don't think it is a good idea to come up with a list ofc8 requirements and matching PLs because this will lead the= discussion quickly to certain aspects of these PLs instead ofD= talking about the big picture which is from my point of view: > can it be possible that something created in the early days of@ our quick evolving area is still the best tool around?? Is C the7 wheel of PL science and practice? Is flying impossible?N  > Is there a more appropriate NG for discussing different PLs? I: dare to continue within this NG because there have several: completely unrelated threads but I would like to move to a# better fitting NG. Any suggestions?V   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 18:00:47 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)<0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <eYAawcfEii1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <ZLUm6.1046$CP4.192534@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:uL > And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose, butK > obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD no longerp
 > requires > it for contracts.=  + ADA is the Americans with Disabilities Act.>' ADA is the American Dental Association.>+ ADA is the Americans for Democratic Action.2 and probably a few more.   Ada is a programming language.L Ada was the given name of Lady Lovelace, who programmed for Charles Babbage.  Ada is a town in the US Midwest.  E Indeed, forcing a specific language on products who do not want it is>C counter productive.  These days Ada is used in the new software fordD the New York City subway, the Boeing 777 avionics, multiple EuropeanB rail and air traffic control projects, and yes, military projects.  ; 	http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.htmlr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:22:19 +0000e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>d0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9C44BB.3DF250AB@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----/ > > From: Rick Cadruvi [mailto:rick@rdperf.com]d > A > > I find this an interesting discussion.  It would be useful ifn
 > > you would  > > suggestt@ > > a more modern language (or series of them) that you think is > > superior tot! > > developing software in C/C++.o > K > I knew I should have worn my Asbestos Underwear(tm) today.  I should also H > know better than to jump into somebody else's (religious? :) argument. >  > Ok, here I go. :)8 > L > I very much like Oberon, which is certainly newer (AFAIK) than either C or > C++. > ; > It is not, of course, for everyone, or every application.  > E > > No language is perfect.  There are many good and bad points in C.a > D > True enough, and if it were assembly, it certainly would have lessN > "protection" built in.  I doubt you'll find anyone to argue that assembly is > "not useful, and outdated."  > ? > > C works fine if you write simply contructed code.  For lotsr > > of different@ > > types of development there are lots of different and perhaps > > better choices.t >  > I very much like Oberon. ;)e > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrisa > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developerg > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");m > 'm >   1 Oberon has been firstly published 1988, C++ 1983.e  > I know and like Oberon-2 very well also but I don't understand= how you can love PERL at the same time because it's basicallye) against all ideas and concepts of Oberon.o  @ I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impression@ that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structures? and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.g> To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures is> in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easy@ way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how it! is built up. Do I miss something?m< If one uses PERL as replacement for UNIX shell programming -= fine with me. The problem comes in the first place from usingn: UNIX. VMS has DCL which is better than any UNIX shell. For) string processing I always prefer DECTPU.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:12:39 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <009F8479.B6EC89DC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  o In article <eYAawcfEii1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:ed >In article <ZLUm6.1046$CP4.192534@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:M >> And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose, but L >> obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD no longer >> requiresE >> it for contracts. >o, >ADA is the Americans with Disabilities Act.( >ADA is the American Dental Association., >ADA is the Americans for Democratic Action. >and probably a few more.o   American Diabetes Association      >Ada is a programming language.XM >Ada was the given name of Lady Lovelace, who programmed for Charles Babbage.t! >Ada is a town in the US Midwest.A >eF >Indeed, forcing a specific language on products who do not want it isD >counter productive.  These days Ada is used in the new software forE >the New York City subway, the Boeing 777 avionics, multiple EuropeangC >rail and air traffic control projects, and yes, military projects.  >d< >	http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.html  H I, for one, spent the years from the introduction of VAX/VMS through theG release of OpenVMS VAX and Alpha V6.1 working for the DoD and, with thesI exception of a short couple of months when I worked on the Mars Observer,hI was never *required* to use Ada.  The folks at GE decided, because they'dmI wanted to learn Ada, to use it for development on the MO.  I have come a-l< cross Ada in more NON-military uses than I have in military.  H You can shoot yourself in the foot with any language you use but, unlikeG C and its bastard relatives, Ada doesn't load the gun and help you aim.-   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMp            jO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:00:33 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010227195427.022e5008@24.8.96.48>  2 At 12:22 AM 2/28/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:A >I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impressionsA >that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structures @ >and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.? >To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures isr? >in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easyhA >way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how it " >is built up. Do I miss something?  I Apparently, yes. It's dead-simple to build up complex data structures in :I perl, and generally simpler to extend them at runtime than in most other n
 languages.  5 >VMS has DCL which is better than any UNIX shell. For * >string processing I always prefer DECTPU.  K DCL's generally nicer than most Unix shells for running command procedures sJ (though it has a number of really annoying limits at this point), but the H newer Unix shells are, by and large, more pleasant to use interactively.  L Whether TPU or perl is better for string processing is a matter of personal J preference. Neither are particularly intuitive to folks not familiar with @ them. TECO beats them both hands-down for brain pain, though. :)   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------e2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evene;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:36:08 GMTb& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <cCYm6.1296$CP4.299029@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  6 "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3A9C2B88.8032D829@infopuls.com...; > I don't think it is a good idea to come up with a list of : > requirements and matching PLs because this will lead the? > discussion quickly to certain aspects of these PLs instead ofs? > talking about the big picture which is from my point of view:t@ > can it be possible that something created in the early days ofB > our quick evolving area is still the best tool around?? Is C the9 > wheel of PL science and practice? Is flying impossible?r  A I disagree.  You stated that using C/C++ was stupid (or something-H to that affect) and that you couldn't write good code in it.  Therefore.A naming other languages and their appropriate use is necessary forsB the discussion.  Since you won't suggest alternatives, you clearly< demonstrate an anti C/C++ bias that must be more emotionally? based than fact based.  I haven't even heard your objections tot C/C++ except their age.a  C Believe me, I am NOT a defender of C.  There are many things I HATEe about C.  Here's 4 of them:o  E         1. Case Sensitivity.  I am use to it, but I think it is a BIG-G            problem.  tmp, TMP, Tmp, tMp, tmP, TMp, tMP should NOT referr            to different things.-  H         2. SWITCH/CASE doesn't auto-break.  I NEVER depend on being ableG            to fall through to the next CASE in a SWITCH statement.  ThewG            default should be BREAK and allow specifying CONTINUE if youh:            want to drop through.  THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!  B         3. BREAK.  Break should be allowed from ALL Begin/End ({})F            constructs (including IF ELSE).  You should also be able toE            BREAK # where # is the number of Begin/End blocks you wantm            to break out of.t  E         4. Use of "==" for compares.  It's WAY too easy to put in "="rF            instead.  In fact, I usually do a specialized search of ALLH            my code before the first compile just to try and catch these.  G However, C is currently one of the most practical development languagesaF because you have a large pool of people who know it and can be broughtF in to a project to work on it.  This is VERY important in commercially viableJ software.  Also, it is portable if the programmer isn't too careless.  You alwaysA have to assume your code will need to run on another platform/OS.6  H My ideal language would probably be mostly a combination of BLISS and C.G However, I do mostly tools and System programming.  Therefore, I am note probablyL the best sample case for what makes a good programming language.  However, I haveI done just about every kind of programming from Accounting packages, to OSe code toh embedded systems to realtime.g  G One thing I don't want is a language to get in the way.  A lot of newer 
 languages are-I designed to prevent programmers for doing things to keep them from makingv	 mistakes.pJ I understand this logic, but what you have is an effort to over compensate becausePF programmers were never taught to program well and they write BAD code.  C In order for a language to be useable, they invariably provide some 
 "backdoor"K that allows you to do the things you really want to do.  As a result, thoseoG "backdoors" get abused.  Along comes someone else who says they have tooJ do something new that removes that "backdoor".  As more code is written in thecJ new language, it becomes clear that new "backdoors" have to be implementedG because the language is preventing complex things from being done or at  leastiH is making them so difficult that they take too long.  This was always my problem J with ADA.  Time to implement a project is VERY important.  It's one of the BADn7 things with C/C++ in terms of applications development.s  L Progrmaming Languages are just part of the tool set programmers use to solveG problems.  What we really do is we solve problems.  The code writing is  merely= a clerical function through which we express those solutions.a  E Sure we should use better tools when they are there.  However, better- programming-E languages will NEVER be a substitute for writing GOOD code.  The reals
 problem weH need to solve is making sure programmers learn how to write code well to start with.2D That is NOT being taught in Universities.  My own son is majoring in computer engineeringK and his professors DON'T have a clue how to write GOOD code.  I am teachingt himtL that and he is juggling writing GOOD code with the CRAP the professors want.	 HopefullyeH he will learn from both and get the grades he wants and still be able to write GOOD codeIK when he finally goes to work for someone.  However, his manager there won'tb have a clue G either and will insist he write BAD code because he doesn't know how toe write GOOD code " and can't understand the benefits.  I How many times do you still hear programmers justify the requirement thatl all routinesG exit at the bottom, or insist it is more efficient to write fewer large  routines than manyF small routines to save a few routine calls.  As long as this ignorance persists, all theh8 GREAT new programming languages won't solve the problem.  I When I even thing about using a ELSE statement, I force myself to justifyn	 it's use.uJ Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally do nested IF then ELSEs.  H Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willJ evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that prevent us fromF doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY	 required.r   just my opinions,t     Rick Cadruvi...o   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 20:54:26 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <i$bexkFcY3K8@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  _ In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010227195427.022e5008@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> writes:f  N > Whether TPU or perl is better for string processing is a matter of personal L > preference. Neither are particularly intuitive to folks not familiar with B > them. TECO beats them both hands-down for brain pain, though. :)  ) I feel no pain using TECO; explain that !g   On second thought, don't... :-)e  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:09:29 -0600a7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>a0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <3A9C5DD9.E437E98A@earthlink.net>s   Dan Sugalski wrote:a > 4 > At 12:22 AM 2/28/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:C > >I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impression C > >that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structureslB > >and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.A > >To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures iseA > >in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easyrC > >way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how itw$ > >is built up. Do I miss something? > J > Apparently, yes. It's dead-simple to build up complex data structures inJ > perl, and generally simpler to extend them at runtime than in most other > languages. > 7 > >VMS has DCL which is better than any UNIX shell. Forp, > >string processing I always prefer DECTPU. > L > DCL's generally nicer than most Unix shells for running command proceduresK > (though it has a number of really annoying limits at this point), but thehJ > newer Unix shells are, by and large, more pleasant to use interactively.  H Well, having experienced both Linux and Tru64, I must say that bash is aH blessing compared to the default shell on Tru64, which ever one that is.? What irks me about UN*X, though, is the lack of a real "commandh language". o  . When you look at DCLINT.CLD (or take a peek atH http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/proglist.txt), you notice that in manyF cases, the name of the program behind an "external" command is not theE same as the name of the command. Note also that some SET commands aretC "internal", and the external commands are processed a few differentn	 programs.e  G DCL did add the DCL$PATH mechanism to emulate part of the function UN*Xr0 and *DOS shells, but even that has its problems.  eM > Whether TPU or perl is better for string processing is a matter of personalrK > preference. Neither are particularly intuitive to folks not familiar with-B > them. TECO beats them both hands-down for brain pain, though. :)  H AMEN to THAT! I've not used TECO since 1982, but a year+ was bad enough!E It has its uses and its afficionados, and even its virtues. I've onlyaG recently discovered how to use change-mode EDT "nokeypad" commands in a, /COMMAND procedure.@   -- c David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 21:14:58 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <5ABc4wgf5wcs@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  c In article <cCYm6.1296$CP4.299029@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:p   > 8 > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3A9C2B88.8032D829@infopuls.com...< >> I don't think it is a good idea to come up with a list of; >> requirements and matching PLs because this will lead the:@ >> discussion quickly to certain aspects of these PLs instead of@ >> talking about the big picture which is from my point of view:A >> can it be possible that something created in the early days ofdC >> our quick evolving area is still the best tool around?? Is C thei: >> wheel of PL science and practice? Is flying impossible? > C > I disagree.  You stated that using C/C++ was stupid (or somethingsJ > to that affect) and that you couldn't write good code in it.  Therefore.C > naming other languages and their appropriate use is necessary forsD > the discussion.  Since you won't suggest alternatives, you clearly> > demonstrate an anti C/C++ bias that must be more emotionallyA > based than fact based.  I haven't even heard your objections toi > C/C++ except their age.g > E > Believe me, I am NOT a defender of C.  There are many things I HATE, > about C.  Here's 4 of them:r > G >         1. Case Sensitivity.  I am use to it, but I think it is a BIGtI >            problem.  tmp, TMP, Tmp, tMp, tmP, TMp, tMP should NOT referi! >            to different things.o > J >         2. SWITCH/CASE doesn't auto-break.  I NEVER depend on being ableI >            to fall through to the next CASE in a SWITCH statement.  TheeI >            default should be BREAK and allow specifying CONTINUE if you < >            want to drop through.  THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!! > D >         3. BREAK.  Break should be allowed from ALL Begin/End ({})H >            constructs (including IF ELSE).  You should also be able toG >            BREAK # where # is the number of Begin/End blocks you wanti >            to break out of.i > G >         4. Use of "==" for compares.  It's WAY too easy to put in "=" H >            instead.  In fact, I usually do a specialized search of ALLJ >            my code before the first compile just to try and catch these.  H That is an interesting list, because it totally omits the most importantG defect the Ada community sees in C -- pointer arithmetic.  For those ofdI us with many years of Bliss experience, pointer arithmetic must seem likeiH it does to the average C-only programmer ... the only way to handle someH programs.  But once one has a suitable amount of experience with Ada (orF some other language without pointer arithmetic) it is obvious that the9 use of pointer arithmetic is a significant vulnerability.   I > However, C is currently one of the most practical development languagesSH > because you have a large pool of people who know it and can be broughtH > in to a project to work on it.  This is VERY important in commercially > viable software.  H I would not want to employ someone who knew only one language, and afterG learning a couple adding one more should not be difficult.  I have done<F some work on an old PL/I program lately, and although I am no expert IE think my defect rate is acceptable.  Picking up a new language is not. that difficult.n  H > Also, it is portable if the programmer isn't too careless.  You alwaysC > have to assume your code will need to run on another platform/OS.o  " Certainly Ada is just as portable.  J > My ideal language would probably be mostly a combination of BLISS and C.I > However, I do mostly tools and System programming.  Therefore, I am not 
 > probablyB > the best sample case for what makes a good programming language.  H While the VMS device driver environment is not suitable for Ada, that isJ mainly the result of the way that data structure definitions are provided.I About the only aspect of VMS device drivers I can think of that could notrI theoretically be done in a safe language would be a driver for a physical.J device on a VAX, to that @!#@$#!%$$#$% wait-for-interrupt-and-keep-channelG linkage (at least "linkage" is what they would call it if they ever hadp" bothered to support it from Bliss.  I > One thing I don't want is a language to get in the way.  A lot of newerv > languages arerK > designed to prevent programmers for doing things to keep them from makingr > mistakes. L > I understand this logic, but what you have is an effort to over compensate	 > becauseIH > programmers were never taught to program well and they write BAD code. > E > In order for a language to be useable, they invariably provide some  > "backdoor"M > that allows you to do the things you really want to do.  As a result, thoseEI > "backdoors" get abused.  Along comes someone else who says they have tonL > do something new that removes that "backdoor".  As more code is written in > theeL > new language, it becomes clear that new "backdoors" have to be implementedI > because the language is preventing complex things from being done or at0 > least6J > is making them so difficult that they take too long.  This was always my	 > problemi > with ADA.   C Presuming you mean Ada :-), please be more specific.  Of course AdasH requires strict definitions of data structures, and VMS does not provide them, that is a given.  K > How many times do you still hear programmers justify the requirement that  > all routinesI > exit at the bottom, or insist it is more efficient to write fewer large  > routines than manyH > small routines to save a few routine calls.  As long as this ignorance > persists, all ther: > GREAT new programming languages won't solve the problem.  E One problem C programamers seem to have more than programmers of safetC languages is that as the programmer they are in charge of low-level B optimization.  Certainly they must deal with how many reads of theC disk are performed (efficient use of cache), but they do _not_ need A to be concerned with the performance difference between an IF andtD a CASE statement (probably not proper C terminology) as the compilerD will sort that out and invalidate any attempted optimizations on the part of the programmer.a  K > When I even thing about using a ELSE statement, I force myself to justify  > it's use. L > Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally do nested > IF then ELSEs.   But I think that is fine:i   	if WINE = RED 	then 	 	    ....  	elsif SIZE > 500a 	thene	 	    ....  	elsif AGE /= 17 	then 	 	    ....r 	elser	 	    ....- 	end if;  J > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willL > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that prevent us > fromH > doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY > required.t  9 But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.'   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:46:29 -0500t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later( Message-ID: <97hofv$j4u$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3A9B023A.CBD414A5@infopuls.com...   ...   = > What do you mean with "it's often in a kernel there usually A > aren't all that many alternatives"? Are you writing code for ana > OS kernel?  1 Yes - e.g., drivers and installable file systems.a  -  Why isn't there any alternative and to what?n >.? > Very good point: the language doesn't help anyone from making = > certain mistakes or finding certain improvments. But a gooda? > language supports you in accomplishing what you want to do ino# > shorter time with better quality..  H Quality is not, as I said, something I have difficulty achieving.  And IH find having to think, in detail, about what I'm doing contributes to theB quality of the result in ways other than just having correct code.    This is not a point in favour > of C/C++.  >p@ > Talking about competence: There isn't any problem which cannot: > be solved better in a language different from C and C++.  D How about the problem that the rest of the kernel is written in thatH language and maintained by people primarily familiar with that language?H Until you can change that, that's a major C/C++ advantage in *practice*,K regardless of whether you believe that *if* that kernel had been written ine$ another language it would be better.  L Unlike academics, many of us have to deal with things as they are, not as weJ might wish they were.  It gives one a somewhat different slant on the art:L one is grateful for things that work, even if they're less than elegant, andH appreciates tools that, while they may be dangerous, are also capable ofA doing whatever job needs to be done if placed in competent hands.e  E A language is just a tool.  If it can be used effectively, it doesn'taL deserve to be called crap, even if some other language might be safer and/orG more elegant and/or easier to use.  When better languages have replacedtJ C/C++ to the extent that C/C++ have replaced assembler, then it *would* beI reasonable to call C/C++ 'verging on obsolete' - or at least too esotericyG for common use.  Until that time, C/C++ contribute significantly to theoJ industry, and form one cornerstone of the open-source effort you appear to appreciate.t   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 04:46:48 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later1 Message-ID: <97hvro$hj4@freepress.concentric.net>i  J > That is an interesting list, because it totally omits the most importantI > defect the Ada community sees in C -- pointer arithmetic.  For those of K > us with many years of Bliss experience, pointer arithmetic must seem likeeJ > it does to the average C-only programmer ... the only way to handle someJ > programs.  But once one has a suitable amount of experience with Ada (orH > some other language without pointer arithmetic) it is obvious that the; > use of pointer arithmetic is a significant vulnerability.e  G I do agree that pointer arithmetic in C is particularly bad.  I guess I  forgot aboutK it because I don't use it.  When I do need to I always type cast or declaret thingsH as (char *).  Anyone who faults C based on the way pointer arithmetic is doneF and the excessive type casting it causes will get NO argument from me.  I As far as pointer arithmetic being problematic, I agree it can be, but ita can alsoD be very powerful.  Not having to program around a problem makes code< more straightforward and therefore less likely to have bugs.  J > While the VMS device driver environment is not suitable for Ada, that isL > mainly the result of the way that data structure definitions are provided.K > About the only aspect of VMS device drivers I can think of that could not,K > theoretically be done in a safe language would be a driver for a physical L > device on a VAX, to that @!#@$#!%$$#$% wait-for-interrupt-and-keep-channelI > linkage (at least "linkage" is what they would call it if they ever hadi$ > bothered to support it from Bliss. >r   I would say that this is true.  E > > When I even thing about using a ELSE statement, I force myself toh justifyl
 > > it's use.DG > > Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally dob nested > > IF then ELSEs. >  > But I think that is fine:O >c > if WINE = REDa > then
 >     .... > elsif SIZE > 500 > then
 >     .... > elsif AGE /= 17  > then
 >     .... > else
 >     ....	 > end if;   9 Your example is fine.  I am talking about something like:t   if ()t   {if ()       {s       }t    elsep       {s          ifr
             {l              }
          elset
             {t              }       }t    } else  B Its the extra nesting that gets problematic.  Your example doesn't display that type of behavior.  6 Even still, I would probably use other constructs like% a switch case statement or something.    > L > > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willK > > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that preventc us > > fromJ > > doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY
 > > required.e >b; > But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.u  K Can we at least agree that if programmers were taught to write good code inoL the first place then a lot of the problems some languages try to solve would be less: of an issue?     Rick Cadruvi...c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:28:33 -0500n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802010128330001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  @ In article <97hvro$hj4@freepress.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> wrote:     > >i > > But I think that is fine:w > >  > > if WINE = REDt > > then > >     .... > > elsif SIZE > 500 > > then > >     .... > > elsif AGE /= 17g > > then > >     .... > > else > >     .... > > end if;= > ; > Your example is fine.  I am talking about something like:n >  > if ()r
 >   {if ()	 >       {n	 >       }r	 >    else 	 >       {=
 >          if= >             {= >              } >          else= >             {- >              }	 >       }e >    } > else > D > Its the extra nesting that gets problematic.  Your example doesn't  > display that type of behavior.  H Well, the C if is particularly weak, and brackets for statement groupingJ are error-prone.  The Ada if is more robust and expressive.  In Ada, smallC syntax errors are easier for the compiler to isolate and flag.  The ; "elsif" construct reduces nesting depth in many situations.u  I The if statement was one of the many points where the Ada designers triedT6 to correct syntactic blunders from previous languages.  D "elsif" is an interesting example.  "else if" and "elsif" mean quiteJ different things (the former starts another level of nesting).  They couldH have chosen "elseif" instead of "elsif", since blanks are significant inG Ada.  But that would have been hell on all the Fortran programmers, whooI can't tell the difference between ELSEIF and ELSE IF.  In Ada, where lineLJ breaks are NOT significant, omitting the space might have been correct, orE and error, but the compiler would not know which until the end of thenJ whole block-if construct.  The strangely-spelled "elsif" localizes what is5 a common typo for folks used to some other languages.n    8 > Even still, I would probably use other constructs like' > a switch case statement or something.a  E I'd tend to agree with you in C, where the if is feeble.  In Ada, theeC if-elsif-else construct is the right one in most cases.  In Larry'seE example, where the IF involves 3 different variables (WINE, SIZE, ande AGE), CASE won't work.  I And if you need a nested if-else in both the if part and the else part, ae switch isn't simple anymore.  N > > > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willM > > > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that prevent  > us
 > > > fromL > > > doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY > > > required.  > >h= > > But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.g > M > Can we at least agree that if programmers were taught to write good code iniN > the first place then a lot of the problems some languages try to solve would	 > be lessu > of an issue?  F Yes, I'll agree with that any time.  It's a problem that won't go awayB anytime soon. I think it's getting worse.  (That must be a sign of	 oldness.)o  @ There have been some fairly unbiased side-by-side comparisons ofE productivity with C vs. Ada, at various programmer skill levels.  AdadJ comes out ahead, usually by a large margin.  It seems to take a bit longer& to write, but much less time to debug.  G In the modern world, where bugs don't matter, Ada is at a disadvantage.e   -- . Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:38:12 -0500r2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: forum.compaq.coma7 Message-ID: <200102272238_MC2-C714-C4F7@compuserve.com>c  9 Message text written by INTERNET:warren.sander@compaq.comt >Re: compaq support forum...    G when the original compaq support forum went online (about the same time9G as the merger) it was an IE only application. Netscape didn't work (any  version)I It was also not a good application for the volume that went through it. =9    J Because Netscape 3.03 wouldn't work I didn't pursue putting up any OpenVM= Sr	 forums. =     J The new application will work with netscape 3.03. There are some problems=  J in some of the 'select a forum' dropdown lists because they are so long b= utH that is a minor annonyance because you can go to the main page to select a forum.  5 Currently OpenVMS is supporting the following forums:?  & In mail and messageing under software:  ALL-IN-1 Office Serverl
  Teamlinks  Mailbus400u  X500 Directoryg   and also a =      Bridgeworks for OpenVMS forum  H All of these are being supported by OpenVMS engineering in the UK (where thesea products are engineered).   H I was waiting until the new forum system stablized before approching theG OpenVMS OS engineering group about supporting a set of OpenVMS forum's.   J We can set up some OpenVMS forums but I don't want to dilute resources aw= ayJ from comp.os.vms and newsgroups in general. I also don't want to make all=   theHE comp.os.vms readers and posters have yet another place to go look for. information.  J A large number of the compaq support forums could be news groups (they re= ad
 like them). =     J That said, discuss this some more and if a 'quorum' want's a forum I'll g= et one created. =   <e  J If a VMS forum is moderated to keep it "on topic", I'd be in favor of it.=  =  J The bandwidth that has been wasted here over the last six or eight years = onJ topics such as "Is VMS dying", "VMS is dead", "No it's not", "the future = of: VMS", etc, ad nauseum, does not need an additional outlet!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:02:52 GMTo) From: Vincent Kurdyla <vkurdyla@home.com>rA Subject: HELP-VAX VMS 5.4 BACKUP Tape reader for WinNT machine ?? 2 Message-ID: <JT+cOtmGgobkmRMkXWnQuHYJyW8N@4ax.com>  
 Hello All,  F I got some very helpful info from this newsgroup a while back, so here I go again;   @ There ARE many good ways I can think to do this, [like DECNET toF TCP-IP file transfer with Pathworks, etc] but so far all my ideas have been shot down;A  E I am going to be provided with a 8 mm (8-10 Gig) BACKUP tape of a VAXyC VMS 5.4 system (maybe both OS and app with source code?? not sure).eC Is there ANY way to get an appropriate tape drive connected to a PCrE running Windows 98 or WinNTand a tape reading utility to retrieve the C BACKUP off the tape ??? Ultimately, I think that whatever is on theeF tape besides source code (and .com files which will be printed out forB reference) will be 'thrown away'.  The other important item on the? tape will be the directory trees which will probably need to beb mapped.   > I have not seen anything like this in the 'Ask the Wizard' FAQ  C I also have not been to this newsgroup for some time, so if someone 5 posted anything about this recently, I didn't see it.o   Any help would be appreciated.  
 Vince Kurdylae   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:36:10 -0500y2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>A Subject: HELP-VAX VMS 5.4 BACKUP Tape reader for WinNT machine ??a7 Message-ID: <200102272236_MC2-C714-C4E6@compuserve.com>u  H         Even if it's possible to read the tape on a PC, it would be more trouble than it's worth.F The PC/DOS/Windows architecture never contemplated a tape drive.  TapeH drives were grafted on later as backup devices.  They normally work ONLYG with the drive vendor's backup program which normally can read only the # vendor's proprietary backup format.m  J         The only easy way to read that tape is to do it on a VMS system. =  A If the tape is still readable, that should get you 100% recovery.c  J         The next best is to buy VBACKUP from Boston Business Computing an= deJ install it on a Unix system.  You can recover your program sources, coman= d-J files, etc.  Binary datafiles will more than likely be garbage; you can g= etE the bits back but making another system understand them can get quiteh	 involved.   J         There is a company that can probably read that tape for you and p= utJ the content on the media of your choice and in the format of your choice.=  =  D Contact Chris Muller of Muller Media Conversions at  (212) 344-8474.  ' Message text written by Vincent Kurdylav >Hello All,p  F I got some very helpful info from this newsgroup a while back, so here I go again;   @ There ARE many good ways I can think to do this, [like DECNET toF TCP-IP file transfer with Pathworks, etc] but so far all my ideas have been shot down;s  E I am going to be provided with a 8 mm (8-10 Gig) BACKUP tape of a VAXtC VMS 5.4 system (maybe both OS and app with source code?? not sure).bC Is there ANY way to get an appropriate tape drive connected to a PChE running Windows 98 or WinNTand a tape reading utility to retrieve the6C BACKUP off the tape ??? Ultimately, I think that whatever is on thewF tape besides source code (and .com files which will be printed out forB reference) will be 'thrown away'.  The other important item on the? tape will be the directory trees which will probably need to be  mapped.y  > I have not seen anything like this in the 'Ask the Wizard' FAQ  C I also have not been to this newsgroup for some time, so if someonet5 posted anything about this recently, I didn't see it.t   Any help would be appreciated.   Vince Kurdyla<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:35:30 -0500v: From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@bender.com>M Subject: RE: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag	e?hK Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D6DBE6C@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>d   > -----Original Message------ > From: Scott Vieth [mailto:svieth@wi.rr.com] * > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:36 PM > To: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comE? > Subject: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to i
 > a web page?t >  > Hi:d > H > We've got Performance Advisor running on our main VMS system and it's 1 > happily generating lots of graphs in PostscripteE > form.  I'd like to build a web page so that anyone on our internal e* > network could take a look at performance/ > on that system over the last couple of weeks.E .R .  .eF You could use a postscript viewer at the desktop.  GSview is one, thatI my users and I have had success with.  We use it to view Compaq Capacity oE Planner graphs of our VMS systems, off of a Compaq Secure Web Server.p  6 GSview is available at http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/    :) jck
 John Koska   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:39:40 -0500 : From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@bender.com>M Subject: RE: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag	e?rK Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D6DBE6D@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>    > -----Original Message-----F > From: hamilton@encompasserve.org [mailto:hamilton@encompasserve.org]* > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:10 AM > To: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comnH > Subject: Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web > page?  >  > Hi Scott,o > C > Do you have a strict requirement for producing the output in JPEGe > (as opposed to, say, PDF)? > H > If not, then consider using Ghostscript for producing PDF.  We produce> > daily performance "charts and graphs", and serve them up on  > our corporate < > intranet using CSWS for OpenVMS.  No need to resort to u$  > stuff, and it < > works fine - it showcases the OS nicely to folks who have  > trouble saying aF > "VMS" (You mean the mainframe?  MVS?? Isn't that a legacy system???) >  > :-)  > F > I've also used CSV to produce graphs using Excel, but the process isG > labor-intensive, at best, and frustrating until you learn how to tellt4 > Excel how to group the data for graphing purposes. >  > Brad Hamiltone  D Oops!  It is as Brad said pretty much. (Got Brad's post much later.)  D You can pick to produce PDF or view PS at desktop.  For me, we just ? decided to forego producing PDF and simply view the postscript.    :) jck   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:39:16 GMTh! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com>tL Subject: Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web page?& Message-ID: <qCRTpDADyCn6EwNJ@gol.com>  G In article <mxHm6.19297$Sl.846367@iad-read.news.verio.net>, Bradford J. , Hamilton <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> writes
 >Hi Scott, >lB >Do you have a strict requirement for producing the output in JPEG >(as opposed to, say, PDF)?v >jG >If not, then consider using Ghostscript for producing PDF.  We produceaJ >daily performance "charts and graphs", and serve them up on our corporateI >intranet using CSWS for OpenVMS.  No need to resort to u$ stuff, and it aJ >works fine - it showcases the OS nicely to folks who have trouble saying E >"VMS" (You mean the mainframe?  MVS?? Isn't that a legacy system???)C >+ >:-) > E >I've also used CSV to produce graphs using Excel, but the process isiF >labor-intensive, at best, and frustrating until you learn how to tell3 >Excel how to group the data for graphing purposes.c >e >Brad Hamilton >-P >In article <3A9B2048.8070908@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes: >>Hi:r >>H >>We've got Performance Advisor running on our main VMS system and it's 1 >>happily generating lots of graphs in PostscriptiE >>form.  I'd like to build a web page so that anyone on our internal t* >>network could take a look at performance/ >>on that system over the last couple of weeks.s >>E >>Performance Advisor doesn't have a lot of choices as far as output C( >>formats.  Since I can't generate JPEGsF >>directly with the Advisor, is there way a way to convert Postscript   >>files to JPEGs (something like >>GhostScript)?r >>I >>I've experimented with telling Performance Advisor to output things in v% >>CSV form and then importing the CSVeH >>file into Excel.  The graphs looks nice but the process seems hard to  >>automate?e >>J >>OR....is it time for us to dump Performance Advisor and move to a newer  >>product to monitor our >>VMS systems? >>	 >>Thanks,  >> >>-Scott :^) >>  E It may be worthwhile to look at Compaq's PAWZ product.  It has a web-eD based display and, IIRC, supports VMS data collection as well Tru64,
 Solaris, etc.l   -- h
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:38:10 -0500i2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>Y Subject: RE: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0c7 Message-ID: <200102272238_MC2-C714-C4F6@compuserve.com>f   > -----Original Message-----> > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@earthlink.net]   > <OpenVMS_Bigot>aF > Being as it's NT crapware, however, that's probably just ... well, I > should shut up 'bout now.a  A Ahh -- No, keep talking, it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. :)h  H > I wonder how much Gates is paying Compaq to force us to manage OpenVMS > using Micro$hit... > </OpenVMS_Bigot>  G I wonder about this statement -- assuming that no "management features"i (forG lack of a real term) have been removed from VMS, AFAIK -- how is Compaq 4 forcing people to manage VMS using non-VMS machines?   <n  G Well, how about management features that have not been kept up to date?   J We used to have ANALYZE /ERROR.  That doesn't work reliably, or at all, o= naC Alphas.  For the Alphas there was DECevent.  DECevent does not, and G reportedly will not, support the ES40.  I'm not sure about the Wildfire 6 boxes but I expect that they are not supported either.  % Supposedly you need "Compaq Analyze".r   Where do you get it?   You don't!!!  J There have been reports here that C-A runs on Windoze PCs and doesn't wor= keG reliably.  So what do we use to keep an eye on the health of our ES40s?w   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 04:16:41 GMTu/ From: StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood)vY Subject: Re: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0L1 Message-ID: <3a9c7992.17318301@news.telocity.com>n  8 On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:38:10 -0500, "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> wrote:   >> -----Original Message-----l? >> From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@earthlink.net]  >l >> <OpenVMS_Bigot>G >> Being as it's NT crapware, however, that's probably just ... well, Ie >> should shut up 'bout now. >iB >Ahh -- No, keep talking, it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. :) >rI >> I wonder how much Gates is paying Compaq to force us to manage OpenVMSi >> using Micro$hit...  >> </OpenVMS_Bigot>4 >eH >I wonder about this statement -- assuming that no "management features" >(foruH >lack of a real term) have been removed from VMS, AFAIK -- how is Compaq5 >forcing people to manage VMS using non-VMS machines?i >G >< >gH >Well, how about management features that have not been kept up to date? >aK >We used to have ANALYZE /ERROR.  That doesn't work reliably, or at all, o=  >nD >Alphas.  For the Alphas there was DECevent.  DECevent does not, andH >reportedly will not, support the ES40.  I'm not sure about the Wildfire7 >boxes but I expect that they are not supported either.t > & >Supposedly you need "Compaq Analyze". >t >Where do you get it?f >h
 >You don't!!!  > K >There have been reports here that C-A runs on Windoze PCs and doesn't wor=n >kH >reliably.  So what do we use to keep an eye on the health of our ES40s? >aC I have Compaq Analyze running on my ES40 that I downloaded from theeC Compaq web site (after being pointed to it by support).  I guess itoD works, but it is WAY to unixy for my liking and where is the /since=	 switch.  r  E I used to be able to figure out what analyze/error was trying to tellnE me, now I simply call tech support and have them tell me what command E they want me to run and let them analyze it.  If they want to make ite= harder on me, that is what I have a hardware support contract D (extended to 3 years) for.  I have yet to get any useful information< out of it that can help me determine if the tape errors I am, experiencing are hard/soft/media/etc errors.   Stever   Steven P. Underwood,DNRC Whitinsville,MAw StevenU@POBoxes.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:21:23 GMTw1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>l Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L2 Message-ID: <3A9BFEDE.6FD183AE@clarityconnect.com>  D Working at a financial institution in NYC in one of it's undergroundG computer rooms.  We could 'see' the subway trains go by on our monitorseG ;*)  Very interesting visual effects but I never heard of this actuallyv bothering anything.      -- )D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:45:35 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90LL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2702012345360001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <3A9BFEDE.6FD183AE@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson"e! <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote:   F > Working at a financial institution in NYC in one of it's undergroundI > computer rooms.  We could 'see' the subway trains go by on our monitors I > ;*)  Very interesting visual effects but I never heard of this actuallyh > bothering anything.l  I I was waiting for a train in Penn Station the other night.  I noticed one I of the TV screens do a wonderful shifting-rainbow thing as a train passedeE underneath.  Those electric trains must throw off a lot of magnetism.   J Won't be able to see this kind of thing for much longer.  The flat screens7 are probably going to do away with the CRT before long.i   -- d Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:46:14 +0000i0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3A9BF5F6.CE00215@uk.sun.com>g   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =r   > JF Mezei wrote:t0 > > > > http://www.sun.com/desktop/sunblade1000/ > > > >qH > > > > AP news reported that those workstations will sell for $1000 US. > =n  J > > I think that this is a new workstation. Here is the news release: (co= uldn't  > > find it on the sun website). > > ! > > Monday February 26 9:07 PM ETn2 > >  Sun Micro Releases New Low-Priced Workstation > >sH > >  LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Network computer maker Sun Microsystems IncJ > >  (NasdaqNM:SUNW - news) has introduced workstation servers for about =	 $1,000 in= > > a bid to2 > >  increase its market, the firm said on Monday. > > J > >  High-end computer companies like Sun and traditional personal comput=	 er makersn > > are slugging itfJ > >  out for the middle ground of computers that can handle heavy workloa= ds but > > are relatively cheap > >  and easy to use.l > >tJ > >  The Sun Blade 100 workstation costs about half the price of the prev= ious > > bottom of the line, thea/ > >  Sun Ultra 5 2D and works faster, Sun said.  > >cJ > >  Software engineers and other primary users of the Sun Blade 100 work= station, > > as the newJ > >  machine is known, can also run Microsoft Corp (NasdaqNM:MSFT - news)=  Windows NTgJ > >  operating system, said Shahin Khan, vice president, marketing, for s= ystems products. > >aJ > >  ``Our focus in this market segment is entirely on unit shipments,'' = he said. > =o   > ???? > =u  J > MS has dropped support for SPARC, so "can run NT" =3D> Intel processor.=   > =r  ' > Solaris runs on Intel processor PC's.. > =   A > So if this article is true, the SUN are building and selling anv > Intel processor PC !!!!i > =h    < The article is true but your have drawn the wrong conclusion from the article.S  = The SunBlade 100 costs 995 dollars and has an UltraSPARC CPU.t  = You can add a SunPCI card to it which is a PCI card which has-< a Intel CPU and RAM to the SunBlade, you run NT/Win2000/98 =  > on the card using displaying the resulting desktop in a window) in the CDE/Gnome session you are running.    Regards  Andrew HarrisonX Enterprise IT Architecte   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:51:19 +0000s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3A9C3D77.85490F6E@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:l > P > In support of David Dachtera's fight for low cost computing, it seems that SUN > has become our ally. > * > http://www.sun.com/desktop/sunblade1000/ > B > AP news reported that those workstations will sell for $1000 US. > F > If Sun is going to attack the Wintel workstation market with its ownK > architecture, then it would open the door for Compaq to push its Alpha in H > workstations as well. If SUN can produce low volume workstations at an< > affordable price, shouldn't Compaq also be able to do so ? > N > Also in another article, AP news reported that Intel said that the Pentium 4K > would be the mainstay product for at least one year. This means that IA64hL > won't be serous for at least one year, giving Compaq a chance to push high! > performance workstations/Alpha.t > L > Once IA64, it is a given that Compaq will have to be a good puppy and obey# > Intel's wishes to push only IA64.6  @ Sorry I don't get it. If I check the page I find the lowest cost system for USD 9,995.00.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:15:04 -0600E7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <3A9C5118.A15A5C2A@earthlink.net>a   Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote: R > > In support of David Dachtera's fight for low cost computing, it seems that SUN > > has become our ally. > >r, > > http://www.sun.com/desktop/sunblade1000/ > >rD > > AP news reported that those workstations will sell for $1000 US. > : > If you want a low-cost Alpha then go to www.islandco.com! > and click on "Low-Cost Alpha" !c  F Are they selling low-cost OpenVMS (commercial) licenses as well (under	 $700 US)?n   -- t David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:54:49 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <3A9C5A69.7E2E7ADC@earthlink.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > E > In support of David Dachtera's fight for low cost computing, [snip]f  G When (*NOT* "if") Affordable OpenVMS finally happens, it'll be no thanx8F to me. I'm just "a voice in the wilderness". The real thanx will go toF those whose tireless efforts finally make it happen, the Directors andH other executives who finally gave in to their own vision, even though itH flew in the face of "common sense", and to the people in "the field" whoF "take it to the streets" and sell it to the waiting millions who stillE suffer, long and silent, with inferior operating software on inferiorr	 hardware.i  H The part I don't understand is how giving OpenVMS away (more or less) toH hobbyists is more politically popular within the "Q" than selling it forF (an admittedly reduced) profit. Guess I really am as dumb as Bill Todd* makes me out to be, if I can't grasp that.  / Wish I had an insider like the DFW guys have...    -- u David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/H  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:00:19 -0700o% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>e4 Subject: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.) Message-ID: <3A9C77D3.DF54EDE7@rdrop.com>a  . Some days, it doesn't pay to get out of bed...  D My Win2K system blue screened four times in the space of three hoursF today.  That's 45 minutes to boot up, get all the right telnet windowsF open, pick up my place, and *BAMF*, it's down again.  So I called it a" day and turned to other matters...  G I telnet'ed to my (small, local, run by a friend) ISP today to find outn< when my account's due, and chanced across a file named '-l'.  H Those of you who know anything about Un*x at all can sympathize; for theE rest of you, here's a lesson in user shell design.  You see, in Un*x,:H the program never gets to know what the actual command line was, even ifF it wanted to.  So when I type 'rm -i *l', rm (the un*x delete program)H sees rm -i -l [...] and knowing that -l is a bad switch, happily barfs a5 perfectly useless and cryptic error message and dies:i  	 #rm -i *ls rm: illegal option -- l@& usage: rm [-f | -i] [-dPRrvW] file ... #r  C Now, various flavors of eunuchs admins over the years have run into F this, and each have implemented their own way of dealing with it.  ForB some, the switch '--' means "everything else is a file', while forB others './-l' works, the './' indicate the same as [] would in VMSH (default directory).  Of course it's been years since I've done anythingE useful in un*x, so all of this escaped me until after I'd stumbled ontF another particular un*x convention, that is, all switches (qualifiers)9 first, then parameters; 'rm -i foo.tmp -l' did the trick.   C Of course, this behavior with filespecs that look like switches andaA using '--' to get around it is documented, so it's a _feature_...   B Well, that's over.  I have to go now- a friend just called wantingC advice on his NT server.  He added a disk this morning, and NT DiskdG Administrator scribbled some bad data in the boot.ini file; To top thats= off, when he wasn't looking a flunky ("I summon the powers oftD Certification!" stuffed in an outdated ERD (Emergency Recovery Disk)C that used an outdated NTFS driver to bring the system up to fix the-G boot.ini file. The old driver was most pleased to scribble all over hisaF boot disk.  We've yet to determine if it's salvagable, but he's movingG on to rebuilding the system on a backup machine.  Fortunately, the disk F addition was done first thing this morning after a clean backup, so noH work was lost (other than the work that couldn't get done, of course...)  + (You know I couldn't make this stuff up...)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:58:12 -0800G! From: Koloth <koloth@tmisnet.com>r8 Subject: Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.+ Message-ID: <3A9C9374.87CE4E87@tmisnet.com>S  3 I feel like UA or WA.  Unix Anonymous or Windoze...    Hi Dean,   Welcome.  % Here, the 12 steps to IT recovery aree 1. Use OpenVMS 2. Use OpenVMS   .a .  .S 12. Use OpenVMSe   Cass   Dean Woodward wrote:  0 > Some days, it doesn't pay to get out of bed... >tF > My Win2K system blue screened four times in the space of three hoursH > today.  That's 45 minutes to boot up, get all the right telnet windowsH > open, pick up my place, and *BAMF*, it's down again.  So I called it a$ > day and turned to other matters... >>I > I telnet'ed to my (small, local, run by a friend) ISP today to find outa> > when my account's due, and chanced across a file named '-l'. >oJ > Those of you who know anything about Un*x at all can sympathize; for theG > rest of you, here's a lesson in user shell design.  You see, in Un*x, J > the program never gets to know what the actual command line was, even ifH > it wanted to.  So when I type 'rm -i *l', rm (the un*x delete program)J > sees rm -i -l [...] and knowing that -l is a bad switch, happily barfs a7 > perfectly useless and cryptic error message and dies:n >A > #rm -i *lp > rm: illegal option -- la( > usage: rm [-f | -i] [-dPRrvW] file ... > #  > E > Now, various flavors of eunuchs admins over the years have run intoRH > this, and each have implemented their own way of dealing with it.  ForD > some, the switch '--' means "everything else is a file', while forD > others './-l' works, the './' indicate the same as [] would in VMSJ > (default directory).  Of course it's been years since I've done anythingG > useful in un*x, so all of this escaped me until after I'd stumbled on-H > another particular un*x convention, that is, all switches (qualifiers); > first, then parameters; 'rm -i foo.tmp -l' did the trick.n >rE > Of course, this behavior with filespecs that look like switches and3C > using '--' to get around it is documented, so it's a _feature_...r > D > Well, that's over.  I have to go now- a friend just called wantingE > advice on his NT server.  He added a disk this morning, and NT DiskwI > Administrator scribbled some bad data in the boot.ini file; To top thatp? > off, when he wasn't looking a flunky ("I summon the powers ofyF > Certification!" stuffed in an outdated ERD (Emergency Recovery Disk)E > that used an outdated NTFS driver to bring the system up to fix themI > boot.ini file. The old driver was most pleased to scribble all over hisKH > boot disk.  We've yet to determine if it's salvagable, but he's movingI > on to rebuilding the system on a backup machine.  Fortunately, the diskaH > addition was done first thing this morning after a clean backup, so noJ > work was lost (other than the work that couldn't get done, of course...) >n- > (You know I couldn't make this stuff up...)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:58:34 -0500d  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>@ Subject: Re: Need to get new mail count ? with a pipe expression5 Message-ID: <1010227215515.3369A-100000@Ives.egh.com>   * On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Didier Morandi wrote:  G > please s'il te plait try essaie de to speak parler also aussi English-  B Hmmm... Don't we get enough people speaking Aussie English on this forum?  :-)d  H > anglais in dans a un english anglais speaking parl=E9 :-) forum forum. >=20	 > D. (D.)2 >=20 > Syltrem wrote: > >=20
 > > Salut! > >=202 > > Regarde NEWMAIL.COM dans ma librairie de pgms. > >=20 > > -- > >=20
 > > Sytrem$ > > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem >=20 >=20   --=20d John Santos[ Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 05:17:36 +0100) From: maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis)  Subject: new freeware: SIPU.COMs! Message-ID: <K19ruJ9KhukG@ludens>)   Hi,>  5 I wrote a little DCL programlet. It's freeware! (GPL)m  B Name:	SIPU  (SImple Patch Utility or Stupid Image Patch Utiliy :-)    . you can display and modify any image's header.   For example:  7 @ sipu apple.exe	!all number is in hexadecimal notation  SIPU> eihd$v_lnkdebug 6 EIHD$V_LNKDEBUG (0050,00,01,00): 00000000 new value: 1 00000050: 00000029 SIPU> writeg
 SIPU> quit $t    
 Available:   command-line anonymous ftp:d* ftp://ludens.elte.hu/vms/freeware/sipu.txt* ftp://ludens.elte.hu/vms/freeware/sipu.zip  4 web (for "all-world-is-unix" firewalls and browsers)/ http://ludens.elte.hu/ftp/vms/freeware/sipu.txts/ http://ludens.elte.hu/ftp/vms/freeware/sipu.zipt    ) All comments and suggestions are welcome.     H Adam Maulis              maulis@ludens elte hu        VMS system managerH ........................................................................H VMS Competence Center                              VMS Szakertoi KozpontH Eotvos Lorand University                   Eotvos Lorand TudomanyegyetemH Budapest, Hungary                                               BudapestH ========================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:55:42 -0500n- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>aK Subject: Re: Now: Where are the VMS apps? Was: 1.2 GHz Alpha Microprocessori( Message-ID: <3A9C2250.959E4CB4@ohio.edu>  O I have been very happy with Mulberry (http://www.cyrusoft.com/), an IMAP clientaO that uses IMSP to store address books and user configuration information on the L server (not just the E-mail messages).  This works very well in a universityG environment, where multiple people use the same machine (in labs and in-P residences) and many employees use both an office machine and a personal machine at home.  P We are doing this with a server running on a Tru64 Alpha box.  Using IMSP, it isN possible to provide controlled sharing of E-mail folders and of address books.  #                                 RDPl     Paul Sture wrote:n  O > In article <s0Xl6.973$7n1.242238@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, Rick Cadruvi wrote: G > > I do my email mostly with Outlook and my Web Browsing with Internet 
 > > Explorer.RP > > Why?  VMS doesn't easily support Email attachments and the Netscape versionsI > > for VMS are CRAP (in fact, since V4.6, NETSCAPE has been too buggy in 
 > > general). P > > I would rather use other stuff, but it isn't standardized and isn't as good. > > I wish thisn > > wasn't true. BUT IT IS!!!c > >:P > Whilst I agree with the general tone of your message, I still refuse to go theP > Lookout route. Several comments this week on this newsgroup about the wretchedI > thing insisting on posting in html at its own discretion reinforce thatu
 > opinion. >oJ > You should see http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17141.html for theI > latest reality check on Outlook. IMNSHO having the thing around is justh& > waiting for some disaster to happen. >gP > There are alternatives, such as Opera, Eudora, HP's Openmail, and even pine onP > a Linux box. I use a product called Virtual Access, which had better support aO > few years ago, but despite its foibles still serves me well most of the time.  > ___t > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlandn   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:54:00 +0000=0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in... * Message-ID: <3A9BF7C8.B81EB338@uk.sun.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:r > _ > In article <3A9BD562.30E3CCA3@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:t > = > :Easy, how about Compaqs own apparent policy of not posting0> > :responses to CERT advisories which OpenVMS was vunerable to> > :instead prefering to push patches out for the vunerabilites6 > :quietly documenting the fixes in the patch reports. > :s= > :I say apparent because this may not be a Compaq policy bute3 > :it is of course what has happened none the less.H > :n< > :Certain people have taken this silence on Compaqs part to8 > :be an  illustration of how secure OpenVMS is relative: > :to other OS's when in fact all Compaq seem to have done( > :is excercised their right to silence. > K >   The interest of Sun Marketing in OpenVMS Security has been instrumentaltI >   in my being able to light a fire under a few of the appropriate local M >   security keisters, and I'd like to thank Mr Harrison his assistance here.e >   : Not being in Sun Marketing I cannot confirm or deny their < interest in OpenVMS security. I am also not that interested > either except when the regular OpenVMS is secure because there: arn't any CERT advisories raises its illinformed and ugly  head in this newsgroup.    Regards  Andrew Harrison, Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:49:17 +0000l0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...e* Message-ID: <3A9BF6AD.1F3B2562@uk.sun.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > _ > In article <3A9BD937.64C35B1F@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:h > < > > Reading the advisory also reveals that Tru64 and OpenVMS= > > are apparently the only two major commercial OS's without 7 > > an OS level fix for the issue, this excludes MS who=9 > > also don't post CERT responses (they arn't a member).  > F > Well certainly there would never be an OS level fix for this on VMS,F > since the vulnerability (if any) would be in a layered product. ThatD > technicality aside, as of this morning I thought the advisory said8 > Compaq was "still evaluating" or words to that effect. >   + Still evaluating isn't a fix in the normal l sense of the word.   Regardsh Andrew Harrisonl Enterprise IT Architectm   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:24:13 GMTl1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>t) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...i2 Message-ID: <3A9C0D98.8672D22F@clarityconnect.com>  H Subject: COMPAQ SSRT1-38U/66U/68U/69U Security Advisory - Multiple Issue sp withH BINDTo: "Security Patch Mailing List" <security@list.support.compaq.com>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 Hash: SHA1  0           ** NO RESTRICTIONS FOR DISTRIBUTION **2 ==================================================%  SOURCE:  Compaq Computer Corporationo3                     Software Security Response Team   5  CASE ID:   SSRT1-38U, SSRT1-66U,SSRT1-68U, SSRT1-69U   4   TITLE:  Multiple Potential Security Issues in BIND;                 (X-REF: CERT CA-2000-20 & CERT CA-2001-02 )       Date:  26-FEB-2001l  A   "Compaq is broadly distributing this Security Advisory in orders;   to bring to the attention of users of Compaq products the-<   important security information contained in this Advisory.A   Compaq recommends that all users determine the applicability ofo:   this information to their individual situations and take   appropriate action.   >   Compaq does not warrant that this information is necessarilyA   accurate or complete for all user situations and, consequently, ?   Compaq will not be responsible for any damages resulting fromw=   user's use or disregard of the information provided in this    Advisory."  	   IMPACT:p  @   Versions Affected:   Compaq's Tru64 UNIX  V4.0d, V4.0f, V4.0g,7                                       V5.0, V5.0a, V5.1 =   Versions Not Affected:   TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS   D    A number of potential security vulnerabilities have recently beenD    discovered for BIND released with Tru64 UNIX, where under certain6    circumstances, system integrity may be compromised.  A    This advisory provides solution information for 6 (six) issues 6    spanning multiple versions of BIND 8.* and BIND 4.*     SEVERITY: HIGH     PROBLEM STATEMENT:  ;   Several security problems were recently found in the BIND A   software used by Compaq Tru64 UNIX.  Specific details have been.D   published by a number of groups to the internet. Technical details8   of these vulnerabilities are publicized by the ISC at:  6    http://www.isc.org/products/BIND/bind-security.html  B   The advisory information is not duplicated here.  The purpose ofB   this advisory is to provide notice of remedial solutions for the+   problems as it impacts Compaq Tru64 UNIX.e     SOLUTION:l  @   Compaq Tru64 UNIX engineering has provided a solutions for the1   potential problems, details are included below.   <   NOTE: The solutions will be included in future releases of:   Tru64 UNIX aggregate patch kits. Until that has happened@   the kits identified should be reinstalled accordingly after an)   upgrade to any affected version listed.I  ?   The patches identified are available from the Compaq FTP siteb@     http://ftp1.support.compaq.com/public/dunix/ then choose the=    version directory needed and search for the patch by name.s  F ......................................................................  /  CERT VU#325431 INFOLEAK - servers may discloseD+                       environment variables.:                       X-REF: SSRT1-66U,SSRT1-68U,SSRT1-69UF ......................................................................       Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 -=                                  patch:    SSRT1-66U_v5_1.targ  (        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.0 & V5.0a  -<                             V5.0   patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0.tar<                             V5.0a patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0a.tar  $       Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0D/F/G  -<                             V4.0d patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0d.tar=                             V4.0f  patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0f.tar7<                             V4.0g patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0g.tar  9       TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerablet  F ......................................................................,   CERT VU#572183 - BIND 4 Buffer overflow in   nslookupComplain())                          X-REF: SSRT1-69Ur*   CERT VU#868916 - BIND 4 Input validation   error in nslookupComplain() )                          X-REF: SSRT1-69UrF ......................................................................=        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.0,  V5.0a, V5.1  - Not Vulnerabler  $        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0D/F/G -<                             V4.0d patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0d.tar=                             V4.0f  patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0f.tard<                             V4.0g patch: SSRT1-69U_v4_0g.tar  :        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  F ......................................................................  '  CERT VU#196945- BIND 8 contains buffero0  overflow in transaction signature handling code(              X-REF: SSRT1-66U, SSRT1-68UF ......................................................................!        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1   - <                                   patch:  SSRT1-66U_v5_1.tar  )        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.0  & V5.0a  -e<                             V5.0   patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0.tar<                             V5.0a patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0a.tar  @        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0D/F/G              - Not Vulnerable:        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  F ......................................................................)   CERT CA-2000-20 - BIND 8 The "zxfr bug"r.                               X-REF: SSRT1-38UF ......................................................................         Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1  -=                                    patch:  SSRT1-66U_v5_1.tara  (        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.0  & V5.0a -<                             V5.0   patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0.tar<                             V5.0a patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0a.tar  @        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0D/F/G              - Not Vulnerable:        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  F ......................................................................'  CERT CA-2000-20 - BIND 8 The "srv bug"t-                              X-REF: SSRT1-38UhF ......................................................................         Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1  -<                                    patch: SSRT1-66U_v5.1_tar  )        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.0 &  V5.0a  -e<                             V5.0   patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0.tar<                             V5.0a patch: SSRT1-68U_v5_0a.tar  @        Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0D/F/G              - Not Vulnerable:        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  ?    NOTE: For Compaq Tru64 UNIX V4.0e please contact your normal     Compaq Services channel.   <    To subscribe to automatically receive future NEW Security9    Advisories from the Software Security Response Team atr    Compaq via electronic mail,  !    Use your browser to get to theo;    http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mailing-list.shtmla>    and sign up.   Select "Security and Individual Notices" for$    immediate dispatch notifications.  D   If you need further information, please contact your normal Compaq   Services  support channel.  A   Compaq appreciates your cooperation and patience. We regret anyo4   inconvenience applying this information may cause.  @   As always, Compaq urges you to periodically review your system>   management and security procedures.  Compaq will continue toC   review and enhance the security features of its products and workrC   with customers to maintain and improve the security and integrityp   of their systems.c  E  (c) Copyright 2001 Compaq Computer Corporation.  All rights reserved    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- F Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>  @ iQA/AwUBOpvCUqgxZJFjvD74EQI4CQCdFAVJWK1Ye6k4NZpToGhMxPCFH2QAnRVz V/wStBTQ02MAG+JtzA8N7W5G =AqRCt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----h     andrew harrison wrote: >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >/a > > In article <3A9BD937.64C35B1F@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:e > >r> > > > Reading the advisory also reveals that Tru64 and OpenVMS? > > > are apparently the only two major commercial OS's withouto9 > > > an OS level fix for the issue, this excludes MS who ; > > > also don't post CERT responses (they arn't a member).s > >iH > > Well certainly there would never be an OS level fix for this on VMS,H > > since the vulnerability (if any) would be in a layered product. ThatF > > technicality aside, as of this morning I thought the advisory said: > > Compaq was "still evaluating" or words to that effect. > >o > , > Still evaluating isn't a fix in the normal > sense of the word. > 	 > Regardsk > Andrew Harrisonm > Enterprise IT Architectf   -- !D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 17:39:11 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)t) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...h3 Message-ID: <fFf7s8BMyWdO@eisner.encompasserve.org>s   > andrew harrison wrote: >> n >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >> >b >> > In article <3A9BD937.64C35B1F@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: >> >? >> > > Reading the advisory also reveals that Tru64 and OpenVMSe@ >> > > are apparently the only two major commercial OS's without: >> > > an OS level fix for the issue, this excludes MS who< >> > > also don't post CERT responses (they arn't a member). >> >I >> > Well certainly there would never be an OS level fix for this on VMS,kI >> > since the vulnerability (if any) would be in a layered product. ThataG >> > technicality aside, as of this morning I thought the advisory saide; >> > Compaq was "still evaluating" or words to that effect.  >> > >> r- >> Still evaluating isn't a fix in the normalr >> sense of the word.f  F No, I did not mean to claim that it was a fix, just that they were not ignoring the CERT.  C Now I will subtly extract from Mark Jilson's post only the portions:E that mention "VMS" (Tru64 would appear to have some problems that arew" not relevant here in comp.os.vms).  ? >   Versions Not Affected:   TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMSe  ; >       TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerableg  < >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  < >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  < >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  < >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:58:45 -0500/2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...lL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2702012358450001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <fFf7s8BMyWdO@eisner.encompasserve.org>,p: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:    A > >   Versions Not Affected:   TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMSr > = > >       TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable. > > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  F Amusing.  I read Andrew's little ditty shortly before I got that email from Compaq.    F Maybe the sky really is falling.  But if Andrew tells me so, I'll feel safe for the rest of the day.s   -- 1 Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com9   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Feb 2001 23:58:09 GMT* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)9 Subject: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATEi) Message-ID: <97heuh$a61$1@hecate.umd.edu>m  O I'm having a problem with a legacy program I am porting.  I'm on an OpenVMS AXPeO 7.1-2 system running Compaq Fortran V7.2-780.  The program in question has beentM running for some time.  It has a large number of modules in a single file.  IaH was in the process of separating the modules into several files when the4 program stopped working; ie, produced bad results.    M I narrowed it down to a single module (there may be more than one) that, whenaI as part of the single source file, the program works, but when separated, L fails.  I did a DIFF on the source file, and there was no difference between the two.  O I started looking at storage maps, and there were very different.  I decided to N use the /SEPARATE_COMPLIATION qualifier, and that is what made the difference.  N When I compile the single source file with /SEPARATE, the program fails.  WhenJ I omit the qualifier (/NOSEPARATE is the default), it works.  (It had been; compiled without the /SEPARATE qualifier in the past, btw.)e  L Does anyone have any idea what to look for that would cause this problem?  IK can post the source code if you wish, but let's take this a step at a time.f Thanks.u   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edue   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 00:00:46 GMT* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)= Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATEn) Message-ID: <97hf3e$a61$2@hecate.umd.edu>   M I know it's bad form to follow one's own post, but here's another detail thatlL may make a difference: I was *always* compiling with /NOOPT.  So, the answerL "optimization did it" isn't quite sufficient; I need something more precise,F like "the foobar is optimized even with /NOOPT except with /SEPARATE".   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edu    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:16:35 -050012 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)= Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATEsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802010016360001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <97heuh$a61$1@hecate.umd.edu>, bleau@umtof.umd.edu wrote:    N > Does anyone have any idea what to look for that would cause this problem?  IM > can post the source code if you wish, but let's take this a step at a time.e	 > Thanks.h  F Have you tried compiling with /CHECK="everything"?  (I don't have docsE handy, and I don't remember what goes in "everything".)  Probably thep< program was never legal Fortran, and you've just been lucky.  @ Look for shared data that should be declared VOLATILE, but isn't  ! That's it off the top of my head.    -- O Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comf   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:31:01 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> + Subject: Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32t- Message-ID: <3A9C54D5.D27294A9@earthlink.net>o   Peter Harding wrote: > 
 > Hi y'all > G > We've just about LaTeX-mailmerged our three PrintServer 32's into thegH > ground and we'd like to replace them with something similarly capable.? > The banner pages probably tell you useful stuff that we don'te
 > understand:e > J > "Digital Equipment Corporation                    PrintServer 32 LPS321"J > "OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2                        DECPrint Supervisor V1.5" > C > (although I believe the V7.1-1H2 is soon to be changed to V7.2-1)n > I > We need serious postscript machinery with a good spread of tray optionsnH > that'll do 32ppm 24 hours/day for six months and then take shorter andE > irregular bouts of similar hard use for four or five years, but ourrI > technical chaps are folding their arms and saying "No; they don't do ithJ > any more." We find that hard to swallow. Is there something we can point% > them at and say "What about those?"s  H A former site of mine is having moderately good luck with HP-4000 seriesH printers. The output stackers are a bit complex and may eventually prove= a weak point. Otherwise, they seem no less reliable than yourl garden-variety HP/LJ.    -- a David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemsg http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:38:20 GMT-3 From: Eric Dittman <dittman@narnia.int.dittman.net>p+ Subject: Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32 ? Message-ID: <wwZm6.2136$dl4.176293@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>G  . Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote:I : We need serious postscript machinery with a good spread of tray optionsSH : that'll do 32ppm 24 hours/day for six months and then take shorter andE : irregular bouts of similar hard use for four or five years, but our9I : technical chaps are folding their arms and saying "No; they don't do it J : any more." We find that hard to swallow. Is there something we can point% : them at and say "What about those?"c  H I've used a QMS 3225 quite successfully.  It is a 25ppm printer, but I'm3 sure there's a 32ppm (or higher) version available.d -- h Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.neth   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:24:53 GMT  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>+ Subject: Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32a' Message-ID: <3A9C99B2.F2B0740B@home.nl>y  L I suppose you could look at any high-end printer manufacturer, they all have suitable printers. Some suggestions:r  H http://www.genicom-international.com/uk/index.htm (they produce DECPrint Supervisor)y< http://www.oce.co.uk/Printing/Products/Pprinters/Default.htm, http://www.xerox.com/go/xrx/template/013.jspC http://www.pandi.hp.com/pandi-db/prodinfo.main?product=laserjet8150  http://www.lexmark.com/M   Some words of advice:n  K If a printer is not mentioned in the supported printer list of DCPS, it maye& still work. But test it before you buyH Install more memory and a big hard disk in the printer. It will speed up your printing dramatically.n   Regards,   Dirk     Peter Harding wrote:  
 > Hi y'all > G > We've just about LaTeX-mailmerged our three PrintServer 32's into theuH > ground and we'd like to replace them with something similarly capable.? > The banner pages probably tell you useful stuff that we don't 
 > understand:e >tJ > "Digital Equipment Corporation                    PrintServer 32 LPS321"J > "OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2                        DECPrint Supervisor V1.5" >oC > (although I believe the V7.1-1H2 is soon to be changed to V7.2-1)r >sI > We need serious postscript machinery with a good spread of tray optionsCH > that'll do 32ppm 24 hours/day for six months and then take shorter andE > irregular bouts of similar hard use for four or five years, but ourdI > technical chaps are folding their arms and saying "No; they don't do it J > any more." We find that hard to swallow. Is there something we can point% > them at and say "What about those?"f > 
 > Many thankso >y > -- > http://i.am/getting_marrieda. > ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:07:59 -0500 * From: "Wayne W. Scott" <wscott=Y=@nac.net>1 Subject: Re: RTR now licesnsed as part of OpenVMS.' Message-ID: <3A9C799F.BCF310E5@nac.net>    James Gessling wrote:K > I > > . Rdb enginnering is telling us how Tuxedo has disappeared of the VMS  > radar  > > .EI > I don't know where their information is from, but it's wrong.  I happen.J > to know a large site using tuxedo 6.5 on vms with some success.  PerhapsF > the rdb folks are just bitter cause they never made their product XA5 > compliant so tux could do 2-phase commits with rdb.  >  > jimT    F I know of at least a dozen sites around the world using Tuxedo on VMS!   Wayne    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:51:20 +0000R) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 9 Subject: Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' , Message-ID: <3A9C2F68.3550448C@infopuls.com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > E > Don't bother, Bill. No disrespect to Christof, but he has an almost.H > religeous zeal for his particular take on OO. We've been through it atI > length offline, and in the end had to agree to differ. He believes thatN$ > it's the right tool for every job. >  > Shane  > ; > Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 02/26/2001 05:00:28 PM. >  > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. > cc:. > < > Subject:  Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' > 6 > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message' > news:3A9AEFCD.AFC8431@infopuls.com...d >  > ...  > ; > > C/C++ is *bullshit*. Who does not accept this is either @ > > uneducated or stupid. Both conditions exclude any reasonable > > exchange of thoughts.n > K > What a coincidence:  *I* consider people uneducated or stupid who mistake. > their prejudices for fact. >  > > D > > While the observation is correct that it is possible to use bad,D > > outdated, rotten languages like C/C++ to write good software (if7 > > you are Superman) the time you need is the problem.r > J > I guess that was a compliment:  I write very-low-bug-rate code in C/C++,H > just as I used to in assembler, and since it's often in a kernel thereL > usually aren't all that many alternatives.  And whatever extra time it mayL > take pays for itself in quality:  I invariably improve algorithms and find > abK > few semantic bugs (the kind that *no* language will help you with) in the.A > process of organizing the code before I even try to compile it.C > J > It might be a bit excessive to characterize people who depend on supportK > from the language for quality as 'GUI-style' programmers, but perhaps not I > all that much.  That's what I meant by 'competence'; perhaps you're notS > acquainted with the concept. >  > - bill  ? Not quite acurate - I'm still thinking if I should continue our8 offline discussion.   < But one major point: there are oo hybrid languages which are= true supersets of procedural languages. This type of languageT= together with a decent implementation of this language can be.@ used to solve all problems perfectly if only procedural features4 are necessary. You simply don't use the oo features.? BTW, I not only blame C for not beeing oo (this wasn't the idea.= at that time) - I blame it for it's weaknesses within its ownV area.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:28:27 -0600a+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>  Subject: RE: Tivoli on VMSN Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284E79@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>   Arne,   F Not sure of a specific Customer site, but you might be interested in = thec following link:nD http://www.tivoli.com/products/documents/whitepapers/openvms_wp.html   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesi Voice: 613-592-4660y Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----3 From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne.vajhoej@gtech.com]t Sent: February 27, 2001 8:29 AMs To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd Subject: Tivoli on VMS      Are anyone using Tivoli on VMS ?   If yes:s'   - then how does it work technically ?t?   - how does one configure it to monitor or do certain things ?u4   - how is the effect on performance (CPU, memory) ?   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:48:14 -0000./ From: "Gerald Marsh" <gerald@cyfer.demon.co.uk>  Subject: Re: Tivoli on VMSA Message-ID: <983314073.29739.0.nnrp-07.9e984c92@news.demon.co.uk>d   Hello Arne,c  E We are using it with Robomon as an agent - They are doing a good job.d  K (Robomon has built-in calls to the Tivoli Enterprise Console and we do some0J damn clever logfile processing. Robomon is the business end which actuallyK performs the monitoring and has a negligible effect on performance. BTW, we.H use Robocentral as a VCS replacement which also sends alerts to Tivoli.)  A Just let me know if you need further info. (Work contact address:nE gerald.marsh@barclays dot co.uk - Just replace "dot" with a real one!e   Keep up the good work!   Gerald.e   -- Gerald Marsh - Directorn Cyfer Solutions Ltd  email: gerald@cyfer.demon.co.uke" URL: http://www.cyfer.demon.co.uk/        7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message # news:3A9BABB3.A0D641CE@gtech.com...x" > Are anyone using Tivoli on VMS ? >E	 > If yes:s) >   - then how does it work technically ?rA >   - how does one configure it to monitor or do certain things ?i6 >   - how is the effect on performance (CPU, memory) ? >t > Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:35:46 GMT # From: trevor <nospam@nospam.please>r# Subject: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist - Message-ID: <3A9C2BCA.34250F03@nospam.please>f   Hi  D I'd like to try TCPIP services 5.1 on my hobbyist machines at home. E Trouble is at work I only have Alpha's now and (even worse) at home I B only have VAX'en, so I don't have access to the appropriate media.  G Would some kind soul be prepared to copy or loan me the media for TCPIP G services 5.1 for VAX.  I have a hobbyist license.  I'm in the UK, and I + can read TK50, TK70, TLZ06 and CD-ROM.  Ta.y    D By the way I notice that the TCPIP 5.1 SPD says the Required minimumH memory for VAX is 32MB.  I think this will preclude a significant numberH of hobbyist class machines running it, e.g VAX station 4000 VLC 24MB maxG memory IIRC.  I wonder if this really is the Minimum Requirement, or ifaH perhaps operation is possible with 24MB but at reduced performance.  AnyF thoughts ?  Are many people using 5.1 yet ?  Is there an install check for memory ?  G It seems to me that a PDP-11 with 256kB of RAM used to be able to do aneF awful lot that you could'nt possibly do now unless you have buckets ofA the stuff.  Yes I know chalk and cheese, but I have seen the term E bloatware used with regard M$oft products and I would hate to see the = same term levelled at VMS, after all what does VMS stand for.o   Regards, Trevore   trevor_deja AT my-deja DOT com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:05:32 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e' Subject: Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyistb, Message-ID: <3A9C4EC6.B836CA10@videotron.ca>  
 trevor wrote:nF > By the way I notice that the TCPIP 5.1 SPD says the Required minimum > memory for VAX is 32MB.   L I am running 5.0 on a 16 meg machine. But I don't have many services enabledM at the same time. And the bind server has a whopping database of 4 hosts  :-)f( I beleive that 5.0 also required 32 meg.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:14:09 -0600 (CST)c From: sms@antinode.org' Subject: Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyists) Message-ID: <01022719140933@antinode.org>-  F > By the way I notice that the TCPIP 5.1 SPD says the Required minimum > memory for VAX is 32MB.   C    They don't recommend running Motif on a VAXstation 2000 with 6MB-E either, but it can be done (if you're not in a hurry).  Don't let 'em  push you around, I say.e  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)aC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)lG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)b9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:13:50 +0000b  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com7 Subject: UK DECUS Workshops - University of Warwick, UKAH Message-ID: <OFCBA58C00.EEAC3EF8-ON80256A00.00683153@qedi.quintiles.com>  J Before the event in Texas that Terry mentioned in the US, there is the NewF Millennium Workshops event which has been organised by DECUS UK at theI University of Warwick, near Coventry, UK on the 4th, 5th and 6th of Aprilr 2001.a  D Whether your subject is OpenVMS, Tru64, Storage, Windows, Pathworks,C Security or whatever, you should find something of interest to you.'  2 Details can be found on the DECUS UK web site at : http://www.decus.co.uk/nmw.htm   Steve.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:24:28 -0600o7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>eQ Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High SearchEngine...)e- Message-ID: <3A9C534C.7077946B@earthlink.net>u   Carl Perkins wrote:  > * > Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk writes... > }Really? Is that true? > }eN > }It doesn't work like that in the UK, because many agencies thought it wouldN > }disuade people from calling them [Childline, Samaritans, Rape Crisis, CrimeK > }Stoppers etc] so do the respective US agencies not use freecall numbers?  > }S > }Steve SpiresO > I > There's a fundamental difference: in the US all local calls are "free". I > (I.E. There is no time related charge, well not on normal home phones -(  F Some areas still have "metered service" for local calls. It is chargedC either time or by "distance" - some nebulous measure only the telco  understands.  A I currently have what was once called "CallPak-100": my first 100 G outgoing calls are covered in my monthly charge. Over 100 is $.10 each,  no time/distance limits.   -- e David J. DachteraG dba DJE Systems3 http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged./   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:27:07 -0600d7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>vQ Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High SearchEngine...)h- Message-ID: <3A9C53EB.905A9129@earthlink.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > Y > In article <27FEB200107532261@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:n > >nK > > There's a fundamental difference: in the US all local calls are "free". K > > (I.E. There is no time related charge, well not on normal home phones -sO > > wireless is different, as are the public pay phones.) It's a flat per-month: > > charge for local service >  > No, common misconception.a > C > Many people have unlimitted access local calls.  You pay a higheraF > monthly fee for that.  Most local phone systems offer other options,$ > ususally message rate and economy.  G To my knowledge, Ameritech does not currently offer what was once known : as "CallPak Unlimited" in Metro-Chicago. I could be wrong.   G > Message rate provides a certain amount of calling for a fixed monthlys6 > fee, after that you get additional per call charges.  & Illinois Bell called them "CallPak"'s.  -G > Economy comes at the lowest monthly rate.  There's a charge for every ) > local call, about 8 throughout the US.u  * Currently known here as "metered service".   -- D David J. Dachtera9 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:26:29 GMTv& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> Subject: Re: VMS apps wishlist: Message-ID: <9YUm6.1122$CP4.197115@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  J David's point is correct.  I can write software that no one needs or wants
 on WindowsI and still expect to sell enough to make it worthwhile writing it.  VMS is  basically justJ the opposite.  Generating sales enough to justify the expense is difficult even ifh- the marketplace needs and wants the software.W   Rick Cadruvi...   ? "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in message & news:97gj7f$jo3@gap.cco.caltech.edu...= > In article <3A9AFBDD.60948595@infopuls.com>, Christof Brasss <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >David Mathog wrote:? > >Unfortunately you missed the point: we don't need Q for thisw > >activity to be successful.f >aJ > Yes, we do, because the Q can nullify all of our work with one decision.L > For instance, no more small Alphas.  Or no more X11 server for VMS.  GivenD > their VMS sales strategy (such as it is) of only focusing on large machines in L > high margin niches it makes very little sense for them to be selling DS10sK > and maybe not even DS20s, and the X11 server has less support on VMS than1I > on any other platform I can think of - including Windows!  There's verycI > little to keep them from dropping the X11 server completely.   At whicheI > point it would become impossible to run _ANYTHING_ visual on "on" a VMStE > machine.  And there goes all of our hard work right down the drain.p >nK > For the record, I've ported one heck of a lot of software to VMS over the F > years.  I'm not adverse to sending the time porting per se, but I amJ > adverse to investing time and energy on a platform that the vendor seems3 > intent on killing, at least in my market segment.o >h
 > Regards, >t > David Mathog > mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduu@ > Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, CaltechL > **************************************************************************L > *                                RIP VMS                                 *L > **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:40:20 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e Subject: Re: VMS apps wishlist, Message-ID: <3A9C3AE4.B47F26A4@infopuls.com>   John Vottero wrote:n > 8 > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3A9AFC46.5BC5FA52@infopuls.com... > > John Vottero wrote:g > > >eI > > > Step 1 should be the infrastructure.  Compaq should throw money at rA > > > TrollTech to get a working implementation of Qt on OpenVMS.a > > >r > [snip]< > > Good point! What about COM (microshits component model)?0 > > I read that Qt is open source, is this true? > D > COM for OpenVMS is already available.  It's part of V7.2 (or 7.1). > L > Qt is open source and free for non-commercial use on Unix based platforms.F > I've played with an OpenVMS port of Qt but it didn't work very well.   Do you know who did the port?h0 Would you like to explain what didn't work well?; As you may know from my postings I avoid C++ because of itss@ flaws. But unfortunately Qt is implemented in C++ - at least the= interface is C++. Maybe we should go another way and start an : open source project for creating or adopting an oo X11 app9 framework. I wonder why there are no open source projectse started and maintained on VMS.< I'll ask ISE if they provide their Eiffel VMS compiler if we start that project.a
 Who is in?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:43:17 GMTs- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>  Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0102271641180.16746-100000@world.std.com>  9 On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:a  N > >Intellectual property. The technology cross-licensing agreement between DECI > >and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" is0 > >far-reaching indeed.  > K > What technology did/does DEC/Compaq get from M$?  Perhaps, how to producepL > buggier products and rush them to hapless customers before they are really, > ready to ship?  Yeah, I'm all for that! ;(    J Heck, I don't even know if DEC got THAT much. You'd have to ask the former$ CTO. He would know. He did the deal.   > K > Compaq purchased DEC after the DEC agreement.  Why do they perpetuate it? . > Did they (Compaq) ink a similar agreement?   > --  H I could well imagine Herr Pfeiffer doing just that, but I honestly don't know.T   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:07:15 GMTM= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. 0 Message-ID: <009F8468.32407E28@SendSpamHere.ORG>  t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0102271641180.16746-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >  >t: >On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: > O >> >Intellectual property. The technology cross-licensing agreement between DEChJ >> >and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" is >> >far-reaching indeed. >> oL >> What technology did/does DEC/Compaq get from M$?  Perhaps, how to produceM >> buggier products and rush them to hapless customers before they are really - >> ready to ship?  Yeah, I'm all for that! ;(  >  >iK >Heck, I don't even know if DEC got THAT much. You'd have to ask the formero% >CTO. He would know. He did the deal.  >* >> hL >> Compaq purchased DEC after the DEC agreement.  Why do they perpetuate it?/ >> Did they (Compaq) ink a similar agreement?  u >> --  > I >I could well imagine Herr Pfeiffer doing just that, but I honestly don't. >know. >r  L I really didn't expect you to know or to answer these rhetorical questions.  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM(            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:37:04 +0000l) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: VMS wanted list.a, Message-ID: <3A9C2C10.E848E50B@infopuls.com>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:l >  > > >a; > > > >The technology cross-licensing agreement between DEC M > > > >and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" isn > > > >far-reaching indeed.t > > >lL > > > I stopped cursing Palmer when I found out that he was apparently hired > to do 6 > > > what he did.  I started cursing the BoD instead. > M > Your curses are probably directed accurately. Palmer was not the person whosN > negotiated the Alliance for Enterprise Organ-Donation, either. That deed wasM > accomplished by the CTO, who accepted the very first offer u$oft threw over L > the transom. Had DEC negotiated more effectively, perhaps u$oft would haveM > agreed to provide server AND client-side Intel apps parity for AlphaNT. Hadf3 > this happened, things might look different today.r  = If you are honest and in a position of loosing a lot of money'> daily and you face a gangster for negotiation it's not easy to come to a fair deal.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:37:36 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>u Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. , Message-ID: <3A9C2C30.BD1F77BB@infopuls.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > Z > In article <3A9AF0DB.FF5432C1@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >Howard S Shubs wrote: > >>B > >> In article <6Plm6.11815$CW1.9296284@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,; > >>  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  > >> > >> >Intellectual property. > >>& > >> Ah, a usage I've not seen before. > >>: > >> >The technology cross-licensing agreement between DECL > >> >and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" is > >> >far-reaching indeed. > >>Q > >> I stopped cursing Palmer when I found out that he was apparently hired to doT5 > >> what he did.  I started cursing the BoD instead.e > >> --  > >> Howard S ShubscI > >> "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"r > >n> > >Palmer should be tortured at least for ten year and then be
 > >killed.C > >A person who let himself or herself hire for doing that is a ...c@ > >sorry my English vocabulary doesn't offer bad enough word for > >that type of person.m? > >I don't disagree to let the BoD join Palmer's treatment (tena% > >years torture and then be killed).R# > >Or is there a better punishment?l > & > Yes!  10 years of using M$ products! >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   Very elegant solution!   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2001 21:12:51 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)e Subject: Re: VMS wanted list.p3 Message-ID: <rUslzcAE$7$5@eisner.encompasserve.org>D  X In article <3A9AF0DB.FF5432C1@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Howard S Shubs wrote:a >>  @ >> In article <6Plm6.11815$CW1.9296284@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,9 >>  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:f >> s >> >Intellectual property. >> h$ >> Ah, a usage I've not seen before. >>  8 >> >The technology cross-licensing agreement between DECJ >> >and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" is >> >far-reaching indeed. >> :O >> I stopped cursing Palmer when I found out that he was apparently hired to doy3 >> what he did.  I started cursing the BoD instead.  >> --  >> Howard S ShubsIG >> "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"l > = > Palmer should be tortured at least for ten year and then beo	 > killed.vB > A person who let himself or herself hire for doing that is a ...? > sorry my English vocabulary doesn't offer bad enough word for  > that type of person.> > I don't disagree to let the BoD join Palmer's treatment (ten$ > years torture and then be killed)." > Or is there a better punishment?    C I'd still settle for having Palmer be the next CEO of Microsoft :-(n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:39:13 -05004' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>a Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. ( Message-ID: <97hric$mmi$1@pyrite.mv.net>  H Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142> wrote in message( news:AxqUQw4iSK3T@tachxxsoftxxconsult...9 > In article <3A9A77AD.75109A63@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyne! <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:h > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >s > >> > >>L > >> Intellectual property. The technology cross-licensing agreement between DECwK > >> and u$oft under the August 1995 "Alliance for Enterprise Computing" ise > >> far-reaching indeed.a > >sH > > Given the little use that u$oft seem to have made of said IP, can we concludeG > > that this was another clever tactic to cripple to opposition (VMS)?M > >< >eK > This assumes they are capable of *understanding* what they ripped off.  I-K > strongly doubt that the billy dark forces comprehend .0000001 per cent of  thet  > digital clustering technology,  K While it's certainly possible that *most* of the dark forces haven't a clueuK about the strengths of VMS clusters, one should not forget that Cutler (whoaJ clearly *does* have a clue, even though he wasn't directly involved in VMSK cluster development) was far from the only high-level techincal person lost0I to MS.  Roger Heinen may or may not still be there, but was for a lengthy L period, and others whom I can't enumerate from memory but were notable.  AndH people like Jim Gray, who, while generally an advocate of shared-nothingJ clusters (I suspect because he feels that *most* problems can be solved byE that simpler architecture), is certainly capable of understanding VMSaG shared-disk clustering.  Microsoft has an enviable array of world-class-I technical talent (I'm *not* talking about the people who write Office andvH Win2K code) but appears not to know what to do with it, so many of theseD people just putter away in interesting but obscure 'research' areas.  L The main thing keeping WinNT from being a world-beater in technology (thoughG quality would still be a major problem) is that MS's corporate focus ismL elsewhere than in the OS area - and even when energy is devoted to OSs, it's: spent on 'features' rather than on fundamental technology.   - bill  1  which is the real reason their "wolfpack" shouldm1 > instead be called "gang of crippled squirrels".r >o > -- >wL ============================================================================ ===K: > Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738 wayne@tachysoft.xxxu: > http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.htmlH > change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot :-)  >wL ============================================================================ ===-J > Dean Wormer to Flounder: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:19:54 GMTm& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>O Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. Was: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop's: Message-ID: <_RUm6.1088$CP4.194989@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  E Sad, but true.  There are lots of potential 3rd party system softwaretG products I would still love to write for VMS, but you can't find peopleCC who will buy them.  Not because they couldn't use them, but becausesA VMS is considered basic stable datacenter not worth messing with.mD If the apps work right now, leave the system alone and new apps willI come online on Windows or Linux or some other "new and exciting" platforms (just kidding).r   Rick Cadruvi...a    ? "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in messagem& news:97giah$jo3@gap.cco.caltech.edu...= > In article <3A9AF28F.F9530561@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass0 <brass@infopuls.com> writes:A > >Let the VMS engineering people to VMS engineering. The did andm0 > >do a great job. Let other poeple do the apps. >tD > They used to.  It was called third party software.  Digital/CompaqH > marketing of OpenVMS drove most of it out of existence - and good luckL > finding what's left (ie, Wordperfect for VMS, etc.).  At this point nobodyL > but a few spokesmen for Compaq ever say that the OS has any future outsideH > of the data center, and the retreat of all commercial software vendors fromL > the platform is the natural consequence.  Only the few remaining users nowE > have any interest in obtaining this sort of software and they don'teL > represent a large enough margin to attract commercial software.  Moreover,H > no vendor in their right mind is going to invest in OpenVMS now, givenJ > Compaq's nonexistent support for the platform outside of the datacenter. (IC > cite, in particular, their insanely bad academic programs and the I > nondeliverance for N years of a modern browser for the platform.)  That I > leaves ports of freeware as the only remaining source of software.  AndtJ > frankly speaking, if that's the software you are going to run, you might as! > well run it on Linux or netBSD.t > H > Don't get me wrong - I do like VMS.  But the actions of Digital/CompaqK > management cannot be overcome by the customers.  We're only passengers on I > this ship.  And much as may like our cabins when the crew keeps rammings. > icebergs it's time to take to the lifeboats. >r > David Mathog > mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edut@ > Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, CaltechL > **************************************************************************L > *                                RIP VMS                                 *L > **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:44:14 +0000f) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>sO Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. Was: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop'g, Message-ID: <3A9C2DBE.8E1FB05F@infopuls.com>   Rick Cadruvi wrote:  > G > Sad, but true.  There are lots of potential 3rd party system softwareaI > products I would still love to write for VMS, but you can't find people E > who will buy them.  Not because they couldn't use them, but becausevC > VMS is considered basic stable datacenter not worth messing with.iF > If the apps work right now, leave the system alone and new apps willK > come online on Windows or Linux or some other "new and exciting" platformo > (just kidding).t >  > Rick Cadruvi...  > A > "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in messager( > news:97giah$jo3@gap.cco.caltech.edu...? > > In article <3A9AF28F.F9530561@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassa > <brass@infopuls.com> writes:C > > >Let the VMS engineering people to VMS engineering. The did andg2 > > >do a great job. Let other poeple do the apps. > >9F > > They used to.  It was called third party software.  Digital/CompaqJ > > marketing of OpenVMS drove most of it out of existence - and good luckN > > finding what's left (ie, Wordperfect for VMS, etc.).  At this point nobodyN > > but a few spokesmen for Compaq ever say that the OS has any future outsideJ > > of the data center, and the retreat of all commercial software vendors > fromN > > the platform is the natural consequence.  Only the few remaining users nowG > > have any interest in obtaining this sort of software and they don't N > > represent a large enough margin to attract commercial software.  Moreover,J > > no vendor in their right mind is going to invest in OpenVMS now, givenL > > Compaq's nonexistent support for the platform outside of the datacenter. > (IE > > cite, in particular, their insanely bad academic programs and thedK > > nondeliverance for N years of a modern browser for the platform.)  That K > > leaves ports of freeware as the only remaining source of software.  AndmL > > frankly speaking, if that's the software you are going to run, you might > as# > > well run it on Linux or netBSD.n > > J > > Don't get me wrong - I do like VMS.  But the actions of Digital/CompaqM > > management cannot be overcome by the customers.  We're only passengers on,K > > this ship.  And much as may like our cabins when the crew keeps ramming*0 > > icebergs it's time to take to the lifeboats. > >  > > David Mathog! > > mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu*B > > Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, CaltechN > > **************************************************************************N > > *                                RIP VMS                                 *N > > **************************************************************************  > I think there is one possibility: first write new server apps.> And there is an area to come where VMS will excel. Wait one or( two years and you will think about that.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.117 ************************