0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 23 Jan 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 46      Contents: Re: $ sh net: no DECnet IV :-( About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP + Re: Bootup TK70 drive problem? or is it ... P Re: Compaq press release - OpenVMS Alpha and Himalayan FinancialMarket  New Wins4 Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 RE: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 RE: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution4 Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution% Re: DEC TCPIP V5.0 problem with Linux ! Re: digital PrintServer 17 600 ps ! Re: digital PrintServer 17 600 ps " Documentation about check$checksum- fast wide SCSI controllers for VMS Clustering  Re: ftp  Re: ftp  Re: ftp  Re: ftp  Re: GS160 hardware question , Re: How to delete directory with bad blocks?, Re: Imagine 30GB in your Laptop or Multia...6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 RE: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform6 Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform$ Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken% Re: Lowercase filenames on VMS V7.2-1  make make Re: make Re: make! Re: New OpenVMS Times now on line ! Re: New OpenVMS Times now on line 4 Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche NTP network load NTP on VMS 7.1 Re: NTP on VMS 7.1 Re: Oldtimer forgot! Price of an entry level Alpha." Re: Price of an entry level Alpha." Re: Price of an entry level Alpha." Re: Price of an entry level Alpha." Re: Price of an entry level Alpha. Printing in VMS  Re: Printing in VMS E Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware E Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware P Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware  question)N Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)N Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)N Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)N Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)L Re: Script to read directory of all drives, clustered, shared, etc. at once?L Re: Script to read directory of all drives, clustered, shared, etc. at once?' Re: Source for used StorageWorks disks? * stop decw$session = kill SUN CDE server... terminal server question Re: terminal server question- Re: Urgent:Error recovering files from backup - Re: Urgent:Error recovering files from backup  Re: vms not an option? Re: X-windows paradigm question  Re: X-windows paradigm question  Re: X-windows paradigm question  Re: X-windows paradigm question  Re: X-windows paradigm question   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:40:28 GMT   From: didier_morandi@my-deja.com' Subject: Re: $ sh net: no DECnet IV :-( ) Message-ID: <94k8la$us3$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   : > but in any case, the relavent section of code appears in9 the SYSTARTUP_VMS.TEMPLATE  file  laid  down  during  the  installation/upgrade.   . Hahaha, this is where I found the solution :-) Thanks.    D.  ? (happy having started a DECWindows session on his Mac today :-)      Sent via Deja.com  http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:20:36 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br " Subject: About X-Windows x ICA/RDPL Message-ID: <OFB7406324.B64C7ADD-ON032569DD.00324189@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   About X-Windows x ICA/RDP   7 The customers are adapted to the MS/Apple GUI standard. B And it is rare to see an end-user installing and using  X-Windows.' Only expert users are using Linux...... E  I never saw  in the organizatons I worked for, the end-users, except D  the support staff and a few scientific users, using X-Windows......  D I believe Citrix it is one of the most sucessful companies nowadays,7 and If they develop a Metaframe for OpenVMS.... will be > amazing... We have tools like Bristol=B4s Wind/U, with enables* to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ...  ; I believe porting MS applications is the way to improve the 2 OpenVMS O.S., and not porting from Unix (POSIX)...  4 There are hundreds of versions of Unixes and Linuxs,1 and OpenVMS is one more multi-user system, in the  middle of the POSIX stuff ..   Regards    FC                            : Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> em 22/01/2001 19:47:23             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       = Assunto: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution     * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:H > But to the mainframe concept return to the corporations, I will insis= t: a H > new graphical terminal must be developed. The web in the way it exist= s  today (client-server) willA > not have a long life because of the growing of applications and  limitations of speed. I H > believe in this new graphical terminal like an ICA Citrix client. Jus= t  the images come to theF > costumers and all the high processing must be in the server - if the image comes to theH > costumers means it is safe to the costumer .... If Microsoft have suc= ess  with WNT< > Datacenter and Terminal Server together, it is a  way .... > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >   9 Why do you ask for this proprietary M$ stuff like Windows = Terminal Server? You will get a fat client which is obviously > not the solution of the future. Stated that, what's wrong with; X11? As far as I know the other solutions (Windows Terminal ! Server, ICA Citrix, WinFrame) are 7 re-invent-the-wheel-approaches. Do we really need that?          =    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:54:50 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP, Message-ID: <3A6D62FA.E9041660@infopuls.com>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >  > About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  > 9 > The customers are adapted to the MS/Apple GUI standard. D > And it is rare to see an end-user installing and using  X-Windows.) > Only expert users are using Linux...... G >  I never saw  in the organizatons I worked for, the end-users, except F >  the support staff and a few scientific users, using X-Windows...... > F > I believe Citrix it is one of the most sucessful companies nowadays,9 > and If they develop a Metaframe for OpenVMS.... will be > > amazing... We have tools like Bristols Wind/U, with enables, > to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ... > = > I believe porting MS applications is the way to improve the 4 > OpenVMS O.S., and not porting from Unix (POSIX)... > 6 > There are hundreds of versions of Unixes and Linuxs,3 > and OpenVMS is one more multi-user system, in the  > middle of the POSIX stuff .. > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >   < I'm not sure if I understand what you talking about. I don't9 feel the difference between a well designed X11 app and a : Windows app that daunting. I like the normal X11 apps more> because they normally allow you move their windows around even; if you have to fill in data while a lot of Windows apps use @ modal dialogs which insist in keeping the window where it is and? try to force you to fill in the data right now not allowing you = to bring other windows on top. Additionally, a lot of Windows > apps use fixed size list boxes - world, I hated that! (I don't? use Windows anymore, thanks world!) You have a huge screen with > 1280x1024 pixels but you have to scroll and scroll because the= programmer had chosen to use a small sized list box which you > can't expand. To be clear on that: I know that this is not the> major fault of the OS but the vast majority of programs behave
 like that.> I honestly doubt that a well designed X11 app will present any@ problem to a user who is accustomed to Windows. And installing a? decent X11 display server on any desktop OS is a piece of cake. ? I allways prefer that solution to distribute the host services, > instead of migrating the host apps to some client based Window= apps. If there is need of client based apps and especially if : there already PeeCees or Macs on the desks than I normally9 replace all the additional terminals by terminal emulator ? software or X display server software. People are happy to less < hardware on their desks. The only hassle is sometimes to get? them used to host authentication. Most desktop users don't like  that keeping passwords in mind. = Don't you think it is possible to let X11 apps to appear very  similar to Windows apps?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:31:44 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDPL Message-ID: <OF911DA4DD.4DA9DB0F-ON032569DD.0043D8DF@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  = You wrote below about programming techiniques and mistakes in  GUI development.  ? I am just suggesting a new graphical terminal, server dependent 9 but not client-server... as a remote control for example. A Why not client-server like HTTP ? It demands bandwidht.... and if @ do you have a remote control-like terminal, you can have a fixed= max size of frames calculated (in theory), what means you can   optimize the network.  C I suggested the ICA protocol because it is thin and multi-platform, E even I think it was not ported to OpenVMS, yet.......And I believe is 9 safer than HTTP because it is not a language - what means   it is most difficutl to hack....  5 Telnet is easier to hack because there is no security - in this protocol ! Do you know a Telnel SSL ?   B I dont think people is happy with less hardware in their desk too.@ People are naturally "multimedia".....and if I want to unplug my7 PC from the Net, no problem.... I am worried about this  Internet-dependency.....   Regards,   FC          : Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> em 23/01/2001 08:54:50             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       & Assunto: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP    * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >  > About X-Windows x ICA/RDP  > 9 > The customers are adapted to the MS/Apple GUI standard. D > And it is rare to see an end-user installing and using  X-Windows.) > Only expert users are using Linux...... H >  I never saw  in the organizatons I worked for, the end-users, except=  F >  the support staff and a few scientific users, using X-Windows...... > F > I believe Citrix it is one of the most sucessful companies nowadays,9 > and If they develop a Metaframe for OpenVMS.... will be @ > amazing... We have tools like Bristol=B4s Wind/U, with enables, > to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ... > = > I believe porting MS applications is the way to improve the 4 > OpenVMS O.S., and not porting from Unix (POSIX)... > 6 > There are hundreds of versions of Unixes and Linuxs,3 > and OpenVMS is one more multi-user system, in the  > middle of the POSIX stuff .. > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >   < I'm not sure if I understand what you talking about. I don't9 feel the difference between a well designed X11 app and a : Windows app that daunting. I like the normal X11 apps more> because they normally allow you move their windows around even; if you have to fill in data while a lot of Windows apps use @ modal dialogs which insist in keeping the window where it is and? try to force you to fill in the data right now not allowing you = to bring other windows on top. Additionally, a lot of Windows > apps use fixed size list boxes - world, I hated that! (I don't? use Windows anymore, thanks world!) You have a huge screen with > 1280x1024 pixels but you have to scroll and scroll because the= programmer had chosen to use a small sized list box which you > can't expand. To be clear on that: I know that this is not the> major fault of the OS but the vast majority of programs behave
 like that.> I honestly doubt that a well designed X11 app will present any@ problem to a user who is accustomed to Windows. And installing a? decent X11 display server on any desktop OS is a piece of cake. ? I allways prefer that solution to distribute the host services, > instead of migrating the host apps to some client based Window= apps. If there is need of client based apps and especially if : there already PeeCees or Macs on the desks than I normally9 replace all the additional terminals by terminal emulator ? software or X display server software. People are happy to less < hardware on their desks. The only hassle is sometimes to get? them used to host authentication. Most desktop users don't like  that keeping passwords in mind. = Don't you think it is possible to let X11 apps to appear very  similar to Windows apps?         =    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:00:43 +0100 + From: Jimmi Aakjaer <aakjaer@post7.tele.dk> & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP8 Message-ID: <n7rq6ts6ng61rs14sa17fljae6rsjelf7u@4ax.com>  A I would like to have ICA or RDP protocols on my VMS machines like D Metaframe for unix (http://www.citrix.com/products/metaframe/unix/).  ? It will give seamless integration between a windows desktop and E X-based applications on the VMS system and give me the opportunity to - write GUI applications instead of text-based.   F Installing excursion on the client or buying x-terminals is not a veryD good solution (difficult to setup/maintain or it is old technology).  D In my environment we try to aviod buying PC's and are buying Windows$ CE based windows terminals instead.   C We run our VMS-applications through a Terminal emulator and with an > ICA/RDP add-on we will be able to make some up-to-date looking$ application without moving from VMS.   Jimmi     # On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:20:36 -0300, * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:   >About X-Windows x ICA/RDP > 8 >The customers are adapted to the MS/Apple GUI standard.C >And it is rare to see an end-user installing and using  X-Windows. ( >Only expert users are using Linux......F > I never saw  in the organizatons I worked for, the end-users, exceptE > the support staff and a few scientific users, using X-Windows......  > E >I believe Citrix it is one of the most sucessful companies nowadays, 8 >and If they develop a Metaframe for OpenVMS.... will be= >amazing... We have tools like Bristols Wind/U, with enables + >to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ...  > < >I believe porting MS applications is the way to improve the3 >OpenVMS O.S., and not porting from Unix (POSIX)...  > 5 >There are hundreds of versions of Unixes and Linuxs, 2 >and OpenVMS is one more multi-user system, in the >middle of the POSIX stuff ..  >  >Regards >  >FC  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  > ; >Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> em 22/01/2001 19:47:23  >  >  >  >      Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >  >  > > >Assunto: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution >  > + >fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: J >> But to the mainframe concept return to the corporations, I will insist: >aI >> new graphical terminal must be developed. The web in the way it exists  >today (client-server) will B >> not have a long life because of the growing of applications and >limitations of speed. II >> believe in this new graphical terminal like an ICA Citrix client. Just  >the images come to the G >> costumers and all the high processing must be in the server - if the  >image comes to the K >> costumers means it is safe to the costumer .... If Microsoft have sucessV	 >with WNTJ= >> Datacenter and Terminal Server together, it is a  way ....o >>
 >> Regards >> >> FCd >> >C: >Why do you ask for this proprietary M$ stuff like Windows> >Terminal Server? You will get a fat client which is obviously? >not the solution of the future. Stated that, what's wrong with < >X11? As far as I know the other solutions (Windows Terminal" >Server, ICA Citrix, WinFrame) are8 >re-invent-the-wheel-approaches. Do we really need that? >  >b >? >  >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:21:01 +0100k= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>i& Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP) Message-ID: <3A6D934D.730EE89C@gtech.com>o  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:C >                 We have tools like Bristols Wind/U, with enablesc, > to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ...  : AFAIK then MS destroyed that company by simply refusing to( license them for newer Windows versions.  4 I do not think many companies will want to follow in their foot-steps.e   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:22:09 +0100S= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP) Message-ID: <3A6D9390.B2ECD9B7@gtech.com>i  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:7 > Telnet is easier to hack because there is no securityi/ > in this protocol ! Do you know a Telnel SSL ?    ????  E SSH is a standard and works on VMS as well (both client and server) !o   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 10:17:09 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)& Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP+ Message-ID: <0ZvYt$UFyvDi@eisner.decus.org>p  x In article <OFB7406324.B64C7ADD-ON032569DD.00324189@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: > About X-Windows x ICA/RDPa > 9 > The customers are adapted to the MS/Apple GUI standard.i  D There's no such thing.  Apple has a standard for what MacOS does andG doesn't reflect what MS does.  Even MS doesn't have a standard for whati
 Windows does.V  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 10:20:05 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)& Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP+ Message-ID: <SyhGGPR0qmq3@eisner.decus.org>w  X In article <3A6D62FA.E9041660@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > > > I'm not sure if I understand what you talking about. I don't; > feel the difference between a well designed X11 app and an > Windows app that daunting.  E I can certainly say a well designed X11 app can be just as good as anFF Apple app.  Before anyone saw X11 we had a bunch of Mac folks design aC GUI interface which we then implemented in X11 the next year.  Felts good, worked great.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupfE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying.   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 15:59:48 GMT' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP0 Message-ID: <94k9pk$8j4$1@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk>  i In article <3A6D934D.730EE89C@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:o+ >fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:-D >>                 We have tools like Bristols Wind/U, with enables- >> to port MFC code to OpenVMS, Unix, etc ...r >r; >AFAIK then MS destroyed that company by simply refusing toe) >license them for newer Windows versions.  >u5 >I do not think many companies will want to follow in  >their foot-steps. >A >Arnee  K Bristol also charged an arm and a leg for Development licenses + a run-timeo license.M Also as I recall the API was severely lacking in functionality making porting K difficult due to Microsoft's keeping the API details secret. Microsoft code-K would keep on appearing using API routines no one outside of Microsoft had q ever heard of before.     6 The only company I know still doing this is mainsoft -   seeA   http://www.mainsoft.comc  M Don't know if they support VMS - they support a few Unixes including Solaris.t  M The Visual Mainwin developers kit for Solaris is priced at $2495.00 per user,g0 per operating system according to their webpage.L I don't know whether they also charge for a run-time license to run the code	 produced.t      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:24:44 -0300o) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brz& Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDPL Message-ID: <OF59BADBDF.F0EE2474-ON032569DD.00635348@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   What mess I did =3D-)t  F I am sorry, english is not my native language and sometimes I think in portuguese and translate.....o     What I was trying to say is:  H a) The current protocol X-Windows  is a little bit complex to start. On= ly you and me know how H to do, but for the end-user, it should be much more simpler. I dont bel= ieve in end-usersH using  $ create/terminal comands to startup a session. It's why is need= ed a simpler protocol._  H b) When I said "client-server" I was saying in the way the Web runs, wi= th programs executingH in the browser coming from the server, etc .... the new protocol must b= ee like the Telnet,H (just connect to the IP port), but with capabilities of a "windowing ",=  use of mouse, etc ....  H c) "Remote control" I was saying that the new "browser/display"  should=  bei similar to VNC, A Pc-Anywhere, etc ... It was an unsuccessful  example  ! ! ! =3D-)u  H d) Did you startup an ICA connection on a PC ? It's simple like to  con= nect to the decnet host , by an VT emulator. . .  H e) In the question of bandwidth: nowadays you are using HTTP to startup=  a lot ofF media applications: video, etc .... should be more interesting only to watch the video,H not to download all the video over the internet - except if do you want=  tou do it .....aH If you have a fixed size of bandwitdth which permits you to see videos = in high resolution,H would be more efficient, than download thousands of cookies in your PC = !tH The server manages all this processing and  only display the contents t= o: the 	 user.....m   It=B4s economy of resources....m  H f) I said a protocol ICA-like, don't need to be Citrix ICA or MS RDP...=  9 Should be a new Telnet standard, like "Display Telnet"...   = It is just an idea ok ?  :-) Dont need to fight with me ! ! !o   Regardsl   FC            : Brass Christof <brass@infopuls.com> em 23/01/2001 14:45:36      )       fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br.      & Assunto: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP    > > You wrote below about programming techniques and mistakes in > GUI development.  < And about the question what is wrong with current protocols.  A > I am just suggesting a new graphical terminal, server dependentn; > but not client-server... as a remote control for example.iB > Why not client-server like HTTP? It demands bandwidth.... and ifB > do you have a remote control-like terminal, you can have a fixed? > max size of frames calculated (in theory), what means you canr > optimise the network.   A I try to understand but it's not easy. You wrote "but not client-h@ server... as a remote control for example." and "Why not client- server like HTTP ?".A First: should we drop the term 'client-server' because it doesn'te@ help us to describe and understand? To have something what isn't> client-server but is client-server seems to me a contradiction? in itself. But I'm not after a word fight, I try to understand.o< Therefore my suggestion not to use the term 'client-server'.? " as a remote control for example" presents another question tor< me: all distributed techniques are remote control. I need to; know exactly what you mean by that term 'remote control' as-: opposed to X11 - the Windows GUI is, of course, not remote2 control what is exactly one of its major problems.> Or did I misunderstand you in that you are asking a rethorical= question why 'client-server' like HTTP is not appropriate? It ? would be very helpful if you could provide a clear and straightt@ description of what do you want to achieve, what problems do you= want to solve (of what respective architectures) and what thee< pros and cons are. Please don't write only a few words whose% interpretation is left to the reader.O  ? HTTP is not a bandwidth hungry protocol, at least if it is usede? the way it is designed for. If you transmit the whole page backc9 and forth after every keystroke this would clearly rise aa; bandwidth problem let alone the deteriorating effect on thed behaviour of the UI.  = And could you please explain in a bit detail what you mean bya@ "and if do you have a remote control-like terminal, you can haveA a fixed max size of frames calculated (in theory), what means youoA can optimise the network."? Let me shortly explain what I believep; to understand: with "remote control-like terminal" you mean @ something which behaves like the most Web applications where the= request is composed locally and then sent to the host. So you ; think of knowing the size of this request and preparing thenA network hardware for optimised processing of that sized requests.F> If you mean that I think that there are many misunderstandings> about networking and software architecture on your side. But I9 don't want to cry out at that moment because I might havel@ completely misunderstood what you wanted to say. So, please giveA me a chance to understand you and try again to explain in furthere* detail what you meant by that. Thanks. :-)  E > I suggested the ICA protocol because it is thin and multi-platform,tH > even I think it was not ported to OpenVMS, yet.......And I believe is=  ; > safer than HTTP because it is not a language - what meanst" > it is most difficutl to hack....  @ Honestly, what you wrote in the last paragraph doesn't make muchA sense to me. X11 is multi-platform also. X11 LBX is low bandwidthr? X. What exactly do you mean with "thin"? Could you explain thati= and give me some numbers. I'm personally really interested ine> this topic because I also think, like you, that improvement is? necessary. But I think we have to understand exactly what we'rep@ talking about in order to not risking to draw wrong conclusions.  ? What do you mean with "safer than HTTP ..."? If ICA protocol isoA a well defined protocol it is subject to the same sort of attackse? like HTTP? Do you know the definition of the ICA protocol or do ? you at least know a management suitable description which pointn> out the major facts that we are able to compare it? Is the ICA> protocol open? What kind of protocol is it? Again: what do you: mean by making a difference between language and protocol.= To my understanding these terms are synonyms in this context!.. I really need a good explanation from you. :-)  7 > Telnet is easier to hack because there is no securitye. > in this protocol! Do you know a Telnet SSL ?  < I don't know Telnet SSL. Does it exist? I know HTTPS. Telnet> was developed in a time where hackers didn't exist, where most; computer sysadmins were honorable persons and where getting = access to the wires was not as easy because most of them wereo
 only inhouse.d= As far as I know SSH is technically absolutely secure. I used @ the client a few weeks two years ago and it provided me a remote> terminal session. I started it from the command line within an@ xterm. Then I had to pass the authentication and, viol=E1, I had> a remote terminal session. I also could copy files but I don't= clearly remember if I did it via ftp or a special SSH programo= which does exist IIRC. It is something like "remote copy' andh= is also able to compress data. And as far as I remember therey> is also the possibility to run X11 over SSH, but I'm not sure.= Anyway, as far as I know, SSH is the way to go if security isx	 a matter.t  F > I dont think people are happy with less hardware on their desks too.B > People are naturally "multimedia".....and if I want to unplug my9 > PC from the Net, no problem.... I am worried about thiss > Internet-dependency.....  < There might be a misunderstanding. If you're referring to my< habit to throw out superflous terminals I can assure you all8 people I know are more than happy if they can get rid of@ additional Screens, keyboards, mice, computers and switches. The? people I know want to have efficient software, one huge screen,OA one keyboard, one mouse and a lot of empty space on their tables.e0 And, last but not least, they don't like cables.  = I'm sorry if I impose some work on you to answer my questionse? and to explain what you really mean. But I think it is the onlyn2 chance to understand and to learn from each other.  And that's it all about I think.         =o   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 18:13:10 GMT' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) & Subject: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDP0 Message-ID: <94khjm$b3v$1@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk>  x In article <OF59BADBDF.F0EE2474-ON032569DD.00635348@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: >- What mess I did =3D-)- > G >I am sorry, english is not my native language and sometimes I think in7 >portuguese and translate..... >n >s >What I was trying to say is:s >6I >a) The current protocol X-Windows  is a little bit complex to start. On=l >lym >you and me know howI >to do, but for the end-user, it should be much more simpler. I dont bel=w >ievee
 >in end-usersrI >using  $ create/terminal comands to startup a session. It's why is need=m >ed av >simpler protocol. >   / So as a system manager hide it from your users.   8 There are as far as I am aware two ways of doing this :-  L 1) Use XDMCP which allows you to choose which system to connect to - which IO believe will setup the Display correctly for you. I haven't actually tried thisdO since UCX has not supported the XDMCP code necessary - supposedly fixed in nextu version of TCPIP services.  O 2) Find where the connection is coming from and set the display in sylogin.com.f%    This is what I use on our systems.2M    The users don't need to know the commands to set the display - if they didnI    know the commands they would still have problems because their PCs are.K    given ip addresses dynamically by DHCP - and most don't know how to find %    what IP address has been assigned.   M This works for the majority of cases. It falls down if they telnet through an G intervening machine since I have yet to find anyway of getting back theCE originating machines ip address in that case - as far as I am aware ay( fundamental limit of the TCPIP protocol.    I >b) When I said "client-server" I was saying in the way the Web runs, wi=C >th  >programs executing I >in the browser coming from the server, etc .... the new protocol must b=e >e >like the Telnet,iI >(just connect to the IP port), but with capabilities of a "windowing ",=  > use  >of mouse, etc ....  >e  N If you have an X-server running on your local machine and have things setup soL that when you telnet to a system the display is set back appropriately then O the program runs on the remote machine with the display appearing on your localm	 machine.    O If you use a web-browser with a CGI program then things are pretty similar withmL the processing being done on the remote web-server machine and displayed on  the local machine.  N If you use a web-browser with java applets then the code is downloaded to yourJ local machine and run there. This has security implications for your local machine.N Applets tend to be small but since they run on the local machine they could be@ classed as the "thin end" of the wedge of a fat client approach.  N I am not sure from the above exactly which of these approaches (or some other)# your "new" protocol would be using.s      I >c) "Remote control" I was saying that the new "browser/display"  should=o > be >similar to VNC,B >Pc-Anywhere, etc ... It was an unsuccessful  example  ! ! ! =3D-) >e  M X-windows allows you to have X-displays from multiple applications running onp; multiple different systems appearing on your local machine. G Hence subject to the security of those remote systems you can "remotely  control" multiple systems.O One of the "problems" with X-windows is that it is too insecure in this regard.eM However the VNC, BackOrifice etc products show that X's insecurity pale when a compared to other products.e      I >d) Did you startup an ICA connection on a PC ? It's simple like to  con=  >nect  >to the decnet host ,p >by an VT emulator. . .s >eI >e) In the question of bandwidth: nowadays you are using HTTP to startup=o > af >lot of G >media applications: video, etc .... should be more interesting only toe >watch the video, I >not to download all the video over the internet - except if do you want=w > to >do it .....I >If you have a fixed size of bandwitdth which permits you to see videos =  >ino >high resolution, I >would be more efficient, than download thousands of cookies in your PC =p >!I >The server manages all this processing and  only display the contents t=a >o >the
 >user..... >e  M This is how X works. The X-client application processes the image file on thes> remote system and then the image is sent to the local system.     >It=B4s economy of resources.... >eI >f) I said a protocol ICA-like, don't need to be Citrix ICA or MS RDP...=k >a: >Should be a new Telnet standard, like "Display Telnet"... >r> >It is just an idea ok ?  :-) Dont need to fight with me ! ! ! >o  . I can't see where this differs from X-Windows.      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >Regards >  >FCp >n >  >t >e >e >l; >Brass Christof <brass@infopuls.com> em 23/01/2001 14:45:36  >t >l >c* >      fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br >t >k > ' >Assunto: Re: About X-Windows x ICA/RDPI >l >e? >> You wrote below about programming techniques and mistakes inn >> GUI development.i >l= >And about the question what is wrong with current protocols.d >nB >> I am just suggesting a new graphical terminal, server dependent< >> but not client-server... as a remote control for example.C >> Why not client-server like HTTP? It demands bandwidth.... and ifeC >> do you have a remote control-like terminal, you can have a fixedn@ >> max size of frames calculated (in theory), what means you can >> optimise the network. >tB >I try to understand but it's not easy. You wrote "but not client-A >server... as a remote control for example." and "Why not client-t >server like HTTP ?". B >First: should we drop the term 'client-server' because it doesn'tA >help us to describe and understand? To have something what isn't ? >client-server but is client-server seems to me a contradiction @ >in itself. But I'm not after a word fight, I try to understand.= >Therefore my suggestion not to use the term 'client-server'.o@ >" as a remote control for example" presents another question to= >me: all distributed techniques are remote control. I need toi< >know exactly what you mean by that term 'remote control' as; >opposed to X11 - the Windows GUI is, of course, not remoteD3 >control what is exactly one of its major problems.a? >Or did I misunderstand you in that you are asking a rethoricalw> >question why 'client-server' like HTTP is not appropriate? It@ >would be very helpful if you could provide a clear and straightA >description of what do you want to achieve, what problems do youa> >want to solve (of what respective architectures) and what the= >pros and cons are. Please don't write only a few words whosee& >interpretation is left to the reader. >l@ >HTTP is not a bandwidth hungry protocol, at least if it is used@ >the way it is designed for. If you transmit the whole page back: >and forth after every keystroke this would clearly rise a< >bandwidth problem let alone the deteriorating effect on the >behaviour of the UI.h >o> >And could you please explain in a bit detail what you mean byA >"and if do you have a remote control-like terminal, you can have B >a fixed max size of frames calculated (in theory), what means youB >can optimise the network."? Let me shortly explain what I believe< >to understand: with "remote control-like terminal" you meanA >something which behaves like the most Web applications where theo> >request is composed locally and then sent to the host. So you< >think of knowing the size of this request and preparing theB >network hardware for optimised processing of that sized requests.? >If you mean that I think that there are many misunderstandingsh? >about networking and software architecture on your side. But I : >don't want to cry out at that moment because I might haveA >completely misunderstood what you wanted to say. So, please givenB >me a chance to understand you and try again to explain in further+ >detail what you meant by that. Thanks. :-)  >eF >> I suggested the ICA protocol because it is thin and multi-platform,I >> even I think it was not ported to OpenVMS, yet.......And I believe is=k >.< >> safer than HTTP because it is not a language - what means# >> it is most difficutl to hack....  >aA >Honestly, what you wrote in the last paragraph doesn't make much.B >sense to me. X11 is multi-platform also. X11 LBX is low bandwidth@ >X. What exactly do you mean with "thin"? Could you explain that> >and give me some numbers. I'm personally really interested in? >this topic because I also think, like you, that improvement iso@ >necessary. But I think we have to understand exactly what we'reA >talking about in order to not risking to draw wrong conclusions.  >o@ >What do you mean with "safer than HTTP ..."? If ICA protocol isB >a well defined protocol it is subject to the same sort of attacks@ >like HTTP? Do you know the definition of the ICA protocol or do@ >you at least know a management suitable description which point? >out the major facts that we are able to compare it? Is the ICAI? >protocol open? What kind of protocol is it? Again: what do youu; >mean by making a difference between language and protocol.n> >To my understanding these terms are synonyms in this context!/ >I really need a good explanation from you. :-)n >e8 >> Telnet is easier to hack because there is no security/ >> in this protocol! Do you know a Telnet SSL ?  >m= >I don't know Telnet SSL. Does it exist? I know HTTPS. Telnete? >was developed in a time where hackers didn't exist, where mostd< >computer sysadmins were honorable persons and where getting> >access to the wires was not as easy because most of them were >only inhouse.> >As far as I know SSH is technically absolutely secure. I usedA >the client a few weeks two years ago and it provided me a remotea? >terminal session. I started it from the command line within annA >xterm. Then I had to pass the authentication and, viol=E1, I hadr? >a remote terminal session. I also could copy files but I don'tc> >clearly remember if I did it via ftp or a special SSH program> >which does exist IIRC. It is something like "remote copy' and> >is also able to compress data. And as far as I remember there? >is also the possibility to run X11 over SSH, but I'm not sure.u> >Anyway, as far as I know, SSH is the way to go if security is
 >a matter. >dG >> I dont think people are happy with less hardware on their desks too.cC >> People are naturally "multimedia".....and if I want to unplug myu: >> PC from the Net, no problem.... I am worried about this >> Internet-dependency.....b >g= >There might be a misunderstanding. If you're referring to myo= >habit to throw out superflous terminals I can assure you all 9 >people I know are more than happy if they can get rid of.A >additional Screens, keyboards, mice, computers and switches. Thee@ >people I know want to have efficient software, one huge screen,B >one keyboard, one mouse and a lot of empty space on their tables.1 >And, last but not least, they don't like cables.h > > >I'm sorry if I impose some work on you to answer my questions@ >and to explain what you really mean. But I think it is the only3 >chance to understand and to learn from each other.i! >And that's it all about I think.  >F >  >  >  >= >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:34:43 -0500g2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)4 Subject: Re: Bootup TK70 drive problem? or is it ...L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2301010234430001@user-2ivea1s.dialup.mindspring.com>  S In article <3a6c569c@news.isc.rit.edu>, nsg9719@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (GAFFIN) wrote:     7 > This might be unlike anything you've ever dealt with.0/ > I could be wrong. Here is what it looks like:h > * > http://www.rit.edu/~nsg9719/chassis.html  P You have a Very Strange VAX!  The "Rugged Digital" label seems very appropriate.   About the tape:m* VMS 5.4 w/ MDM ... Bootable ... SYSTEM.BCKL MDM is "microvax diagnostic monitor" or maybe "microVMS diagnostic monitor". "Bootable" probably means that Standalone Backup is on the tape.  That's bootable, but it's not VMS.  "System.BCK" is likely the name of a backup saveset.  J What does the label on the side of the chassis (next to the terminal) say?  7 I've never seen a connector like that for a disk drive.?   It looks to me like digital custom-built this fellow.  Do you know its history?  Any of the paperwork still exist?  Maybe some obscure department at Compaq can still trace it for you.r    . > There are 7 pictures of the scenario, should- > anyone care to take a look. I can get close 4 > ups of the cards, and what is behind them, altough > it may not be relevant.   8 > I will search the documentation I was handed, and then8 > take a closer look. I am thinking this could very well > be a power supply problem...  U Usually, a power supply problem would be detected, and the system won't start at all.5     What's the goal?  Get this system running?  Do something with one of the strange cards?  Recover data from the disks?  Depending on what you need, this system might NOT be the simplest way to get it done.   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:36:33 +1100 / From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>-Y Subject: Re: Compaq press release - OpenVMS Alpha and Himalayan FinancialMarket  New WinsA1 Message-ID: <ftab6.4256$cF2.87428@ozemail.com.au>i  7 Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message.' news:877l3rgtdr.fsf@prep.synonet.com...-1 > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:r > + > > This is quite a dissapointment if true.c >R@ > Well, go to one of the real diehard DEC users, www.abc.net.au.A > Take a carefull look at anything and see who owns the farm now.rG When they advertised a hell-desk job last year vms was still mentioned. / (Dr. Karl on the abc site is also worth a look)  Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:49:26 +0100t= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>p= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutioni) Message-ID: <3A6D3785.C69E7A56@gtech.com>e   JF Mezei wrote:e > "Main, Kerry" wrote:N > > Wow - pretty poor fud - even for you Andrew. The Eurex was a NEW win for a> > > NEW project with the CBOT. As was the Sydney Exchange win. > O > Ok, MR Main... I have heard that EUREX was dropping VMS, and now you say that  > it was a new win.a  = I think the new win is a new company owned by Eurex and CBOT.-   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:46:53 +0000c% From: Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com>g= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution38 Message-ID: <kohq6topn1c5rjfq7tqf14p0dn3krbt7dl@4ax.com>  , On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:43:02 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    > L >I think that the Gartner report only matches the changes between Palmer andN >Compaq. During the Palmer years, Gartner was rightly calling for customers toN >move away from VMS ASAP. In hindsight, they proedicted correctly that DigitalO >didn't really have any intentions with VMS and that customers should avoid it.c  E They didn't need to predict it of course. DEC actually told them.. It > all started with the statement made by a DEC VP (I think, I've? forgotten who now) that "VMS had no future on the desktop." VMSiC customers were given the spin that he meant to say that Desktop VMSs= had no future - referring to the slightly cut-down VAXstation A distribution of VMS.  Large ISVs were told that he actually meanttC exactly what he said and further that VMS as a server had a limitedrC lifespan. Couple this with the announcement on the resurrectioin ofiE Prism as Alpha but that VMS would not be ported - a decision that wascF obviously reversed under heavy pressure-  then add in DEC's use of the> word legacy when describing VMS and you have obvious disquiet.  E Ken Olsen did not want to kill VMS but it was very, very clear that a-@ lot of people under him were doing exactly that by poisoning keyA applicaions providers. DEC backtracked on this slightly for a fewR? years afterwards but it was not until Compaq took over that thet@ message was explicitly reversed. It appears that Compaq sales noC longer go behind VMS's back and whsiper that VMS is on the way out.sC This single change is the most positive sign that VMS may be on theoC way back. However Compaq really need to keep Oracle Applications onoF VMS (or get SAP back on board) I feel - even if they need to subsidiseE it. It's almost a litmus test of just how serious Compaq is. Note howu Andrew bangs on about it.e    J >And now that the Palmer poison has stopped being injected in VMS, you seeN >Gartner stopping the "VMS is dead" and starts to see VMS out of the immediate >death list.   Exactly  >tN >If VMS is still alive despite all the poison it was fed, it is because of one >single reason:n >	EXTREMELY LOYAL CUSTOMERS.   Most definitelly!c   >lN >The remaining VMS shops are those who have managers and workers very loyal toO >VMS and who were able to fight the strong forces to migrate away from VMS. AndsM >I think that Compaq should take a lesson or two from these very loyal peopleeL >because of all the people in the world, they know what is needed to get VMS >back in shape.P  B True but we may not know what steps might be counter-productive by& restarting active internal opposition. >,N >And when the folks who saved VMS from extinction tell Compaq they want to seeM >VMS marketed openily as a sign that Compaq is serious about VMS, then Compaq  >should listen very carefully. >l   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:54:55 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com>e= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutione8 Message-ID: <irkq6t4ol7ij11ef3jhkeq07gqhpdlm8ph@4ax.com>  2 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:47:23 +0000, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:.   > : >Why do you ask for this proprietary M$ stuff like Windows> >Terminal Server? You will get a fat client which is obviously? >not the solution of the future. Stated that, what's wrong witho< >X11? As far as I know the other solutions (Windows Terminal" >Server, ICA Citrix, WinFrame) are8 >re-invent-the-wheel-approaches. Do we really need that?  B To some extent but I wouldn't call them fat clients. ICA is prettyD thin and includes a JAVA client which will run from a browser plus aC DOS client which will boot from floppy and X is also supported as aeB transport requiring no client software. Plus there are server sideA ports to various Unix flavours as well. It is not MS proprietary.c --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:36:12 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution * Message-ID: <3A6D5E9C.422DB72E@uk.sun.com>   Christof Brass wrote:b > , > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:N > > But to the mainframe concept return to the corporations, I will insist:  ae > > new graphical terminal must be developed. The web in the way it exists today (client-server) wille[ > > not have a long life because of the growing of applications and limitations of speed. Iea > > believe in this new graphical terminal like an ICA Citrix client. Just the images come to thee[ > > costumers and all the high processing must be in the server - if the image comes to theXU > > costumers means it is safe to the costumer .... If Microsoft have sucess with WNTo> > > Datacenter and Terminal Server together, it is a  way .... > >  > > Regardsa > >m > > FC > >o > ; > Why do you ask for this proprietary M$ stuff like Windowst? > Terminal Server? You will get a fat client which is obviouslye@ > not the solution of the future. Stated that, what's wrong with= > X11? As far as I know the other solutions (Windows Terminala# > Server, ICA Citrix, WinFrame) arec9 > re-invent-the-wheel-approaches. Do we really need that?e    9 Well firstly providing a Citrix or Tarantella client for s: OpenVMS would not be providing a FAT client, both of them 6 are thin clients. The Tarantella Java client is about < 250K of Java classes that persist after you have downloaded + them for the first time using say netscape.   7 Secondly Tarantella allows you to use one common clientd4 with a common adaptive protocol to talk either to a - Windows RDP service or to a X-Windows server.r  7 Because it is adaptive it works well over long latency l3 low bandwidth lines as well as lower latency higher 5 bandwidth LAN connections. We use it to get access toe5 X11 apps via dialup sessions through our modem pool, a' it simply works better than X for this.4  4 Thirdly Tarantella allows us to run all their server2 processes on Solaris, nothing is installed on the 4 NT server at all it just talks RDP to the Tarantella2 Server. This reduces the number of NT boxes needed3 to support a given user population of thin clients.s           ================       | Tarantella   | Java or       | Client       | nativer       ================               |e)               |  Tarantella adaptive proto       ================       | Tarantella   |       | Server (UNIX)|       ================          | RDP    | Xi         NT       X11    > Regards  Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:06:50 -0600i+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e= Subject: RE: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutioniN Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284C81@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>   JF,d  H >>> Does this mean that once you drop VMS, if you re-use your hardware = for anC new smaller less critical project, you consider this a new win ? >>a  I This was NEW AlphaServer hardware and extremely high visibility project =a - E the international financial futures and options market is not taken =" lightly 
 by anyone.  G Review this url and see if it fits your view of "smaller, less criticale
 project.."G <http://www.cbot.com/cbot/www/cont_detail/0,1493,11+24+108+863,00.html>    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantm Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: January 22, 2001 5:43 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutione     "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > Wow - pretty poor fud - even for you Andrew. The Eurex was a NEW win = for a < > NEW project with the CBOT. As was the Sydney Exchange win.  F Ok, MR Main... I have heard that EUREX was dropping VMS, and now you = sayr that it was a new win.h  H Does this mean that once you drop VMS, if you re-use your hardware for = a newt< smaller less critical project, you consider this a new win ?  F Lets say I am the Cr=E9dit Lyonnais. I quietly drop VMS from my core =	 business, G and then buy a small DS10 that runs VMS to run the reservation system =b ford thenH corporate dining rooms. Would Compaq be so desperate for any wins that = itC would be willing to use a client which abandonned VMS as its core = 	 system toe brag about a small new system ?t  < Did EUREX drop or not VMS from some of its core operations ?  D > I view winning as gaining a Customers confidence that what you are@ > delivering is a solid solution that will meet their business =
 requirements.e  H Spinnning a win requires some confidence in the vendor. When customers = do not 6 have confidence in the vendor, then we see it as spin.  G For instance, in Canada, Air Canada regained its near monopoly status =p thanksE to government stupidity. During the olympics, it plastered TVs with =o constantI ads with the slogan "in competition with the world". They almost had to =  pullH the ads when they realised that people distrusted AC so much that they = saweA these ads as AC trying to brainwash people that there was in facte competition 
 in Canada.    D Compaq brags about VMS being a major platform in international fundsF transfers, even though SWIFT has pulled the plug on VMS and the last = systemsdG running the SWIFT software on VMS  in banks will go away in a year or =  two. IfH you're in that business, and see the Compaq claim, doesn't Compaq lose = some
 credibility ?   H Similarly, if you are involved with EUREX and know that EUREX did pull = thePG plug on VMS, and you see Compaq brtagging about VMS there even though =c VMS  now , plays a much lesser role, how do you react ?  F Since the VMS community is small and fairly tighlty knit, I think that Compaq) should be very careful with its spinning.t  H I agree that it is good and necessary to provide good news. But I feel = thatI Compaq should be looking to provide TRUE good news instead of trying to =o find aa  positive way to spin a net loss.  6 > Quote - "Tru64 Unix and OpenVMS are proven winners."  H In all fairness: if one distrusts Gartner because Gartner doesn't like = VMS,I does this mean that Gartner all of a sudden becomes a beleivable source =r ofH information because they publish ONE article that agrees with what you = like ?   I I think that the Gartner report only matches the changes between Palmer =s and B Compaq. During the Palmer years, Gartner was rightly calling for =	 customerss toE move away from VMS ASAP. In hindsight, they proedicted correctly that  DigitalnF didn't really have any intentions with VMS and that customers should = avoidd it.o  G And now that the Palmer poison has stopped being injected in VMS, you =  see C Gartner stopping the "VMS is dead" and starts to see VMS out of then	 immediaten death list.i  H If VMS is still alive despite all the poison it was fed, it is because = of onew single reason: 	EXTREMELY LOYAL CUSTOMERS.e  F The remaining VMS shops are those who have managers and workers very = loyalt toG VMS and who were able to fight the strong forces to migrate away from =u VMS. And G I think that Compaq should take a lesson or two from these very loyal =i peopleI because of all the people in the world, they know what is needed to get =a VMSe back in shape.  H And when the folks who saved VMS from extinction tell Compaq they want = to seecG VMS marketed openily as a sign that Compaq is serious about VMS, then =d Compaq should listen very carefully.e  E The customer base for VMS is in a way, far more religious and loyal =t thanE APPLE's. Nobody at Apple tried to kill the macintosh, they just had =a someI incompetent chiefs during a bad period. The loyal customers just had to =n keepF the MAC on life support during that period. The loyal VMS supporters = had toG fight active attempts by Digital to kill VMS on top of trying to keep =p it on.
 life support.     E > Its a multi-platform world and there is no one solution or one OS =n platform: > that will address all requirements, so whats your point?  G The point is that if the other platforms are competing against you, youg should( be able/allowed to compete against them.  F > If increasing your footprint is Sun's main measurement of success, = how doG > you explain all the server consolidation projects that are going on =t in manyD > medium-large companies ie. the concept of replacing many smaller = serversmE > with fewer (but larger), centralized and in many cases, clustered =e servers  ??  F Yep, FIDO/Microcell just replaces a farm of NT web servers with some = SunaB servers running apache because they realised that their cheap PC = solutionG couldn't scale. So you should acknowledge that if server cosolidation =n isB happening, then the most popular vendor is bound to get the most =	 contracts. forsC consolidation. There is a lot more happening outside the VMS world.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:21:24 -0600G+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>y= Subject: RE: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutiontN Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284C83@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,   I >> Then perhaps you could comment on this response to your posting on the  Sydney "WIN". <<  K Is the person who posted this working for the Sydnet Exchange or is it pureM speculation?  E I suggest you direct this to whoever it was that posted the comments..   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant. Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services. Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]i Sent: January 22, 2001 10:06 AMD To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutiont     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,  > 5 > Back at work I see .. We missed you on the weekend.r >  > :-)  > K > >>> Perhaps a good example of how people are being missled is the currenttK > crop of "OpenVMS wins" being trumpeted by your favourite Compaq employee. L > Very few people count losing most of a companys platform infrastructure toJ > other vendors,  while retaining a backend server platform which has beenJ > upgraded from large (high service revenue) servers to much smaller lowerL > cost systems as a win. Winning is increasing your footprint in a customersI > infrastructure and if you are in sales increasing your annual revenues,e onlyD > a Compaq Marketing person could describe the opposite as a win.<<< > L > Wow - pretty poor fud - even for you Andrew. The Eurex was a NEW win for a< > NEW project with the CBOT. As was the Sydney Exchange win. >   ? Then perhaps you could comment on this response to your posting- on the Sydney "WIN". 2    E "Note that they ( or in some incarnation... ) have been cut down fromg? 100% VMS to core only. This is just a non-loss, not a win. ThismD reduction was/is being done against the advise of the people runningC the system and is pushed by VMS not 'having a future' and not beinga 'standard'."  K >I guess thats the difference between us. You stated that winning is simplye >increasing your box footprint.v  ; No, footprint does not just mean systems, it means support,t; services, software, etc. I didn't mention boxes so its veryu; revealing that you automatically translated footprint into h; boxes. You seem to think the way you accuse me of thinking.l     Regards  Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architect.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:25:17 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>= Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solutiony* Message-ID: <3A6DBE7D.D627D59D@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,a > K > >> Then perhaps you could comment on this response to your posting on they > Sydney "WIN". << > M > Is the person who posted this working for the Sydnet Exchange or is it pure  > speculation? > G > I suggest you direct this to whoever it was that posted the comments.s >   2 Sorry Kerry you direct the response to him he was 7 responding directly to one of your marketing bulletins.F    
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior ConsultantI > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Services  > Voice: 613-592-4660a > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----9 > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com] ! > Sent: January 22, 2001 10:06 AMn > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt? > Subject: Re: Compaq: A simple, affordable clustering solution  >  > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >I > > Andrew,e > >h7 > > Back at work I see .. We missed you on the weekend.  > >o > > :-)V > >dM > > >>> Perhaps a good example of how people are being missled is the currentoM > > crop of "OpenVMS wins" being trumpeted by your favourite Compaq employee.tN > > Very few people count losing most of a companys platform infrastructure toL > > other vendors,  while retaining a backend server platform which has beenL > > upgraded from large (high service revenue) servers to much smaller lowerN > > cost systems as a win. Winning is increasing your footprint in a customersK > > infrastructure and if you are in sales increasing your annual revenues,n > onlyF > > a Compaq Marketing person could describe the opposite as a win.<<< > >eN > > Wow - pretty poor fud - even for you Andrew. The Eurex was a NEW win for a> > > NEW project with the CBOT. As was the Sydney Exchange win. > >R > A > Then perhaps you could comment on this response to your postings > on the Sydney "WIN". > G > "Note that they ( or in some incarnation... ) have been cut down from A > 100% VMS to core only. This is just a non-loss, not a win. ThisvF > reduction was/is being done against the advise of the people runningE > the system and is pushed by VMS not 'having a future' and not beingv > 'standard'." > M > >I guess thats the difference between us. You stated that winning is simplyu! > >increasing your box footprint.A > = > No, footprint does not just mean systems, it means support,u= > services, software, etc. I didn't mention boxes so its very < > revealing that you automatically translated footprint into= > boxes. You seem to think the way you accuse me of thinking.f > 	 > Regardse > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architectf   -- y Andrew Harrisonm Enterprise IT Architecte   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:05:53 +0100h7 From: "Walter A. Ambrosch" <Walter.Ambrosch@adicom.com>i. Subject: Re: DEC TCPIP V5.0 problem with Linux( Message-ID: <980233755.461904@ns.alb.de>  J David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:" 3A6A5ECE.8521BCD2@earthlink.net... > Michael Holmes wrote:u > > 9 > > I'm experiencing a weird problem on my Dec 3000-300L.hH > > When ever I telnet into the Alpha from my PC running Linux (Mandrake Linux H > > 7.1) the CPU immediately jumps to 100% (as shown in Monitor system). BothE > > are connected to a 10BaseT hub and are the only two things on it.- > >aI > > Pinging the PC from the alpha returns time in excess of 9000ms, whileeE > > pinging alpha from the PC return packet times constiently of 2ms.g > > J > > When I look at the hub, the both lights are flashing, as is the nic on the0& > > PC. (indicating lots of activity).K > > I also get a OPCOM message about a "late collision" on CMASD-A (I thinkr its J > > the Decnet circuit) when I start the telnet session from the PC to the
 > > Alpha.E > > When I end the telnet session from the PC to the alpha the systemo
 returns to > > normal.r > >IF > > I can telnet from the alpha to the linux-pc fine with no problems.G > > Interestingly, on the alpha I can telnet into the Linux-pc and then  telnet' > > back to the alpha with no problems.lJ > > The problem only occurs when I use the pc-linux console to telnet into thes
 > > alpha.D > > If I boot the pc to windows, I can telnet into the alpha with no	 problems.v > >s > > Any ideas of what is wrong?  >pF > I believe this is a known problem with TCP/IP Service V5.0. You need  > V5.0A, I believe, to fix this.  H Yes, I remember it from a discussion just on this newsgroup, but not theH specifics: the OpenVMS telnet server has a bug which leads to a constantK exchange between client and server of a specific "will do/won't do" option.rE My Linux box was connected via an ISDN connection to the AXP box, andlL xisdnload showed a constant load on my ISDN circuit, which wasn't there whenF connecting to another telnet server. Going to V5.0A (+ ECOs) fixed it.   >h > -- > David J. Dachteran > dba DJE Systemse > http://www.djesys.com/ >e< > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l >hH > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. >eB > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. >rH > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.    Walter A. Ambrosch ADICOM Informatik GmbH   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:49:51 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com* Subject: Re: digital PrintServer 17 600 psH Message-ID: <OF4F720B79.C1388B7C-ON802569DD.003B3F6D@qedi.quintiles.com>  : Version 5.1 of the software for VMS supports IP just fine.J The parameters ipaddress, gateway and subnetmask in the LPSCONFIG.nodename! file configure the relevant bits.FK I presume (maybe falsely, but I doubt it since there's one across a networkuC from me) that the Windows version of the software can do similarly.m Steve.   David J. Dachtera wrote:< >>>Sorry - my mistake. I was thinking LN17 instead of LPS17.  G I dunno if there was ever a version of the LPS17 software that providedcE TCP/IP support. I was kinda hoping Paul Anderson would chime in righte about here...<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:44:31 -0500i0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>* Subject: Re: digital PrintServer 17 600 psC Message-ID: <paul.r.anderson-23D86F.10443123012001@news.compaq.com>t   In article  > <OF4F720B79.C1388B7C-ON802569DD.003B3F6D@qedi.quintiles.com>, ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:h  A > Version 5.1 of the software for VMS supports IP just fine. The s6 > parameters ipaddress, gateway and subnetmask in the A > LPSCONFIG.nodename file configure the relevant bits. I presume tD > (maybe falsely, but I doubt it since there's one across a network E > from me) that the Windows version of the software can do similarly.t  D The protocols that the PrintServer printer runs (IP and DECnet) are F independent of the method used to boot the printer.  For example, you ? can run DECnet even though you used IP to boot it from Windows.,   Paul   -- :,    Paul Anderson, OpenVMS Engineering (DCPS),    Compaq Computer Corporation, Littleton MA   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:23:33 GMTF/ From: "Gerhard van der Zedde" <gmzedde@home.nl>>+ Subject: Documentation about check$checksumo3 Message-ID: <F_jb6.48071$Wa6.854790@zwoll1.home.nl>i   Hello,  L Does anyone know any information written about the symbol checksum$checksum.J It's a standard feature in VMS but I can't find any information how to use it   Gerharda   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:34:29 -0800 * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>6 Subject: fast wide SCSI controllers for VMS Clustering4 Message-ID: <Vpib6.719$9r5.124526@news1.primary.net>  D I have been asked to connect two 500au Alphas in a SCSI cluster withC fast-wide drives.  Reading the VMS manual it states that the Qlogic ? controller (currently in the two machines) is not supported fornH clustering.  Does anyone know the appropriate Compaq part number for theG correct PCI controller ( KZTSA,KZPSA ??? ) which will support fast wideMG drives with clustering?  Is there a controller that uses the 64 bit PCIr' slots, and does VMS support 64 bit PCI?   H These machines are short on PCI slots.  Is there a 100Mbit Ethernet card& that works in the 64 bit PCI slot too?     Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:29:36 +0000y- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a Subject: Re: ftp( Message-ID: <3A6D8740.B11D5BB@bbc.co.uk>   Antony Wardle wrote:   > Ok,o >M. > how do I change disk when I have ftp'ed into > my axp 7.1 machine?o >n   ftp> cd mydisk:[mydir]   whats is the issue?    >g > Antony   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofg MedAS or the BBC.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:17:43 GMTi From: piyush_a@my-deja.com Subject: Re: ftp) Message-ID: <94k3pv$q4o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>h  D lcd [dirname]    if you want to change directories on the local nodeF cd [dirname]     if you want to change directories on the remote node.  1 In article <VL2b6.3857$cF2.79328@ozemail.com.au>,d<   "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nnnoospam.met.co.nz> wrote: > Ok,h >e. > how do I change disk when I have ftp'ed into > my axp 7.1 machine?h >d > Antony >e >s     Sent via Deja.come http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 10:07:08 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: ftp+ Message-ID: <Q0nK7$DxLUUR@eisner.decus.org>r  m In article <VL2b6.3857$cF2.79328@ozemail.com.au>, "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nnnoospam.met.co.nz> writes:  > Ok,k > . > how do I change disk when I have ftp'ed into > my axp 7.1 machine?t >   G This depends completely on what FTP client you're using.  Most will leto# you enter a command somewhere like:a      cd disk:[dir]   or      cd /disk/diru  G This can be hard to find if you're using Exceed, but it's in one of theuA menus.  Which client platform are you using and who's FTP client?a  G It's straight forward on non-GUI clients (the command prompt is all youtB get), and some GUI clients (like WS_FTP for Windows) know VMS well: enough to include something when they detect a VMS server.  J Some FTP clients let you enter the RFC 959 command port string for things & they don't understand.  This would be:      CWD disk:[dir]w  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouphE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingG   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:16:10 +0000i- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>g Subject: Re: ftp) Message-ID: <3A6DAE4A.E507ED20@bbc.co.uk>,   Bob Koehler wrote:  o > In article <VL2b6.3857$cF2.79328@ozemail.com.au>, "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nnnoospam.met.co.nz> writes:o > > Ok,e > >e0 > > how do I change disk when I have ftp'ed into > > my axp 7.1 machine?t > >M >sI > This depends completely on what FTP client you're using.  Most will letS% > you enter a command somewhere like:i >a >    cd disk:[dir] >  > or >  >    cd /disk/dirT >EI > This can be hard to find if you're using Exceed, but it's in one of the C > menus.  Which client platform are you using and who's FTP client?r > I > It's straight forward on non-GUI clients (the command prompt is all you D > get), and some GUI clients (like WS_FTP for Windows) know VMS well< > enough to include something when they detect a VMS server. >kK > Some FTP clients let you enter the RFC 959 command port string for thingse( > they don't understand.  This would be: >  >    CWD disk:[dir]e  N Fair enough. However, the original poster didn't specify he was using a WindozO client, and as this is a VMS group I'd assumed a VMS client, and I am not awaret% of any graphical ftp clients for VMS.y  I Tim, who tends to prefer the pain from C:\Windows\Telnet to the pain fromr graphical ftp clients.   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:45:53 -0500f5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>h$ Subject: Re: GS160 hardware question, Message-ID: <94kg4a$4b2d$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3A6C6068.4922714A@uk.sun.com>... >"Main, Kerry" wrote:e     <snip - line noise removed>y   Andy, you're a putz.  I If every Sun server required a trained monkey to restart it every time itaK got a cache parity error, you'd be telling us how it's saving an endangered/ species.  B Frankly, "most" benchmark numbers are relative crap.  They measureI unrealistic things using unrealistic hardware configurations.  As soon assD they get out there, vendors are looking for ways to optimize for theE benchmark.  But the only thing that matters is the performance of thea customers real applications.  K For those who like benchmark numbers... either challenge it as illegal, get- the rules changed, or shut up.  J Maybe I'm a little cranky today, but I'd really appreciate it if you spentJ your copious time helping Sun users in another newsgroup - who may need toG hear the party line on why their system is down.  After all, if VMS and L Compaq suck as bad as you think we do, we'll fail just fine without you.  IfI anyone needs a Sun IT Architect, we'll call you.  Go architect something.i   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:32:10 GMTF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)5 Subject: Re: How to delete directory with bad blocks?:* Message-ID: <94k14r$gg3@usenet.pa.dec.com>  ^ In article <m3puhfz0so.fsf@hermes.consultron.com>, sfb@consultron.com (Stefan K. Berg) writes:  K >To be a bit more verbose: I followed Michael's procedure with a successfulu >result as can be seen below.f >aK >If bad blocks returns to bite me I suppose I will have to go hunting for ak) >replacement RZ24 or other suitable disk.e  @ Considering what low capacity SCSI disks go for now, I'd suggest< you start looking for a replacement disk BEFORE you need it.; Even RZ26 sized disks should be fairly reasonable in price.o  9 However, as a stopgap measure, you might want to considero some of the following steps.  < First, try doing a SET VOLUME /DATA_CHECK = WRITE (and maybe< also for READ) on the volume.  This should help catch errors8 and bad blocks if there are still any.  It may also help8 a failing disk show up sooner.  (You should also keep an9 eye on the error log and SHOW ERROR counts to see if theyi> grow on this disk).  You might also try an ANALYZE /DISK /READ= occasionally to make sure everything on the disk is readable.f   --  (  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have aV5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:39:23 -0500h* From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>5 Subject: Re: Imagine 30GB in your Laptop or Multia...t+ Message-ID: <3A6D7B7B.E5B5DCAF@rtfmcsi.com>n   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:   > Sorry if this URL wraps... > N > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/01/01/22/010122hndrive.xml?0122mnpm >e  P I wonder if the writer of that article has ever heard of IBM's TravelStar seriesO of 2.5" disk drives?  IBM has had a 30GB 2.5" drive out for over a year now.  InM also think that they released a 36GB model (only 12mm high) in the 3rd or 4thaI quarter of 2000.  I've upgraded through a series of IBM 2.5" drives in myuL various laptops over time, moving from my original 8.1GB up to a 14GB then aO 25GB and now my current 30GB drive.  Excellent drives... never event a bit of a J problem with them.  As I've upgraded I've put the old drives into externalO enclosures that connect to my laptop via a PCCARD so that I can continue to usenO the drives as auxilliary storage.  Its pretty cool to have a 25GB archive driveoM plugged in and 30GB on the internal drive for my software development laptop.s  O Of course, maybe Toshiba's new drives will be faster than IBM's drives.  I'd beeL interested to see how their reliability turns out.  A friend of mine did notM want to pony up the money for an IBM TravelStar drive and instead he bought ayL Toshiba 2.5" drive for his laptop last summer.  He went through two of thoseD drives [with complete data loss] as they failed in rapid succession.O Ultimately, after a lot of problems, he returned the Toshiba drives and finallyi9 paid for an IBM drive and has not had any problems since.e     -- Chuck Choppo  8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:35:01 -0500e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2301010235020001@user-2ivea1s.dialup.mindspring.com>  V In article <t6puuq8mnfrr3b@corp.supernews.com>, "Bill Stouffer" <farm@erie.net> wrote:  L > Has anyone been informed or heard rumors about Compaq dropping support for > OpenVMS on the VAX platform?  # Probably, you just started a rumor.R   Somewhere at compaq's web pages, if they are not broken, there is some stuff about VAX support.  Start at www.openvms.compaq.com, and cross your fingers.e   The short answer is no, they haven't said anything about dropping support any time soon.  The next version (7.3) of VMS is coming out for both platforms soon.W The following version is underway, and from what I've heard it will also support Vaxes.   WSome new features are only being added for alpha, mostly where the smaller address space of a Vax wouldn't let the feature be useful.  And you probably won't see much new support for fancy, high-end new devices on Vax.  I expect they will do what they have to do to allow the current SCSI drives to work on vaxes, where the firmware allows it.a   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:42:07 +0000r  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform H Message-ID: <OFEA2811E5.1C63C670-ON802569DD.003A5CED@qedi.quintiles.com>  E I think one of the main reasons for not adding things to VAX (besidescI obviously the 64-bitness of Alpha) is that the VAX kernel probably hasn't2K required any changes for a significant time (maybe around v6.1???) and thataJ any changes that are made would mean significant testing to make sure thatH stuff doesn't break elsewhere.  Testing takes both time and money so the) less things you have to break the better.  But that's just my idea. Steve.  8 Robert Deninger (rdeninger at mindspring dot com) wrote:E >>>Some new features are only being added for alpha, mostly where theiK smaller address space of a Vax wouldn't let the feature be useful.  And youhK probably won't see much new support for fancy, high-end new devices on Vax. K I expect they will do what they have to do to allow the current SCSI drives"2 to work on vaxes, where the firmware allows it.<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:18:19 -0300h) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brt? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform L Message-ID: <OF18ED3253.31A85702-ON032569DD.00436C59@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  : So, if Compaq is dropping VMS on VAX, it is time to have a7 VAX on a chip in  a PCI card running under Windows 2000  and CHARON-VAX.....r     Regardst   FC        1 steven.reece@quintiles.com em 23/01/2001 08:42:07o             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn      ? Assunto: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform         E I think one of the main reasons for not adding things to VAX (besides I obviously the 64-bitness of Alpha) is that the VAX kernel probably hasn't K required any changes for a significant time (maybe around v6.1???) and thatgJ any changes that are made would mean significant testing to make sure thatH stuff doesn't break elsewhere.  Testing takes both time and money so the) less things you have to break the better.d But that's just my idea. Steve.  8 Robert Deninger (rdeninger at mindspring dot com) wrote:E >>>Some new features are only being added for alpha, mostly where thenK smaller address space of a Vax wouldn't let the feature be useful.  And youpK probably won't see much new support for fancy, high-end new devices on Vax. K I expect they will do what they have to do to allow the current SCSI drivest2 to work on vaxes, where the firmware allows it.<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:26:51 +0000a  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformaH Message-ID: <OFDF7A7378.8AD69036-ON802569DD.003EA089@qedi.quintiles.com>  I But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and wellr< and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.G If nothing else, could you imagine the US Government or any other major K player in the VAX installed base putting up with Compaq removing support or.C dropping the product line?  Compaq would be signing their own deathy
 warrant!!! Steve.   Fabio wrote:= >>>So, if Compaq is dropping VMS on VAX, it is time to have aw7 VAX on a chip in  a PCI card running under Windows 2000: and CHARON-VAX.....<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:47:21 -0300o) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br/? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformeL Message-ID: <OF5825BFF2.A2A47644-ON032569DD.00460710@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  C If Compaq is not really stopping withVAX / VMS systems, they shouldjH at least relaunch o=E7d models, optimized with new hardware, enclousure= s,	 etc .....1  F If the difficult is porting the VAX codes to the Alpha codes, would be easier@ and profitable for Compaq, launch new VAXes or MicroVAXes.... to+ substitute the old ones running worlwide...f  ( Even they use the Proliant cases ! =3D-)     Regardsk   FC        1 steven.reece@quintiles.com em 23/01/2001 09:26:51I             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       ? Assunto: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformw      H But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and we= ll< and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.H If nothing else, could you imagine the US Government or any other major=  H player in the VAX installed base putting up with Compaq removing suppor= t orC dropping the product line?  Compaq would be signing their own death-
 warrant!!! Steve.   Fabio wrote:= >>>So, if Compaq is dropping VMS on VAX, it is time to have az7 VAX on a chip in  a PCI card running under Windows 2000u and CHARON-VAX.....<<<           =9   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:46:26 +0800o- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>r? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010123204626.0079e230@mail.bigpond.com>   < At 11:26 AM 1/23/01 +0000, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: >uJ >But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and well= >and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.tH >If nothing else, could you imagine the US Government or any other majorL >player in the VAX installed base putting up with Compaq removing support orD >dropping the product line?  Compaq would be signing their own death >warrant!!!u >Steve.t > 
 >Fabio wrote:t> >>>>So, if Compaq is dropping VMS on VAX, it is time to have a8 >VAX on a chip in  a PCI card running under Windows 2000 >and CHARON-VAX.....<<<   : And just out of curiosity, how many PDPs are still in use?     Regards, Dave.bI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/DI DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:49:21 -0600l+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> ? Subject: RE: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformlN Message-ID: <910612C07BCAD1119AF40000F86AF0D805284C80@kaoexc3.kao.cpqcorp.net>   Bill,s  H As others have pointed out, the answer is NO. There are no plans to dropK support for VAX/VMS. As others pointed out, however, many new features that   come out will be Alpha specific.  L The VAX hardware is EOL, but there is still a re-seller market with partners9 for Customers who might want to acquire larger VAX's etc.d  ) The official information is available at:<= <http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/vax_letter_final.html>n( <http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/>J <http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html> relative VAX  to Alpha performance comparisons   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant- Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services0 Voice: 613-592-4660m Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----* From: Bill Stouffer [mailto:farm@erie.net] Sent: January 22, 2001 10:35 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn; Subject: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformi    J Has anyone been informed or heard rumors about Compaq dropping support for OpenVMS on the VAX platform?   bill_stouffer@lord.com   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:39:58 GMTF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformh* Message-ID: <94k1je$gg3@usenet.pa.dec.com>  k In article <OFEA2811E5.1C63C670-ON802569DD.003A5CED@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:  >lF >I think one of the main reasons for not adding things to VAX (besidesJ >obviously the 64-bitness of Alpha) is that the VAX kernel probably hasn'tL >required any changes for a significant time (maybe around v6.1???) and thatK >any changes that are made would mean significant testing to make sure that I >stuff doesn't break elsewhere.  Testing takes both time and money so thee* >less things you have to break the better. >But that's just my idea.v >Steve.   B There has been development of VAX / VMS since 6.1, and developmentD is continuing.  VAX / VMS is still tested very extensively, and yes, it does take time and money.  > New development is primarily in the area of compatibility with? Alpha in clusters, and with bug fixes: but since there still is.C quite a bit of common code between VAX and Alpha, some new featuresa= and some performance improvements are also being added to VAXM / VMS.  = However, the prevailing opinion around here is that customersl: who are still on VAX platforms are primarily interested inC stability, and if you want better performance and new functionalityt> you need to move to a newer platform.  The very high degree of? compatibility between VMS on VAX and Alpha platforms helps here > (yes, we know it's not perfect, there are people still looking; at that as well).  This is really no different than for anyd< other vendor (when was the last time you saw significant new7 functionality announced for a Series 370 or CDC 6600?).t   -- 9(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have aS5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:40:23 -0700 1 From: David D Miller <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com>l? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformCF Message-ID: <OF646C204F.C7418740-ON072569DD.00505125@rsc.raytheon.com>  G I'm the Software Product Manager for 20ish PDP-11s running with RSX andwJ about 10**6 lines of FORTRAN.  Not real PDP-11s though. It's the Osprey (a1 PDP-11 chip set on an ISA board running on a PC).F   dave    < At 11:26 AM 1/23/01 +0000, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: >uJ >But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and well= >and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.wH >If nothing else, could you imagine the US Government or any other majorI >player in the VAX installed base putting up with Compaq removing support  orD >dropping the product line?  Compaq would be signing their own death >warrant!!!n >Steve.t >e
 >Fabio wrote: > >>>>So, if Compaq is dropping VMS on VAX, it is time to have a8 >VAX on a chip in  a PCI card running under Windows 2000 >and CHARON-VAX.....<<<n  : And just out of curiosity, how many PDPs are still in use?     Regards, Dave.pI -------------------------------------------------------------------------hI David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/fI DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmmI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:18:09 +0100u= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>o? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platform ) Message-ID: <3A6D92A0.D154B34B@gtech.com>a   Bill Stouffer wrote:L > Has anyone been informed or heard rumors about Compaq dropping support for > OpenVMS on the VAX platform?  + I think this is a very misinforming rumour.f  H Compaq has publicly announed that they will support VMS VAX until 2010 !  H You can not buy a new VAX anymore, but Compaq will support both hardware and 	 software.e  C Until now Compaq has also released new VMS VAX versions in parallel  with VMS Alpha versions.  < (even though many of the new features are only in VMS Alpha)   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:56:46 -0500k- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformr, Message-ID: <3A6DB7CC.C44F12BC@videotron.ca>  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:S > K > But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and wellu> > and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.  J However, bear in Mind that Compaq has stopped selling VAX boxes as of lastL decmber. And bear in mind that Compaq will soon have some webcast whose goal6 is to convince customers to migrate from VAX to Alpha.  J Bear in mind that many of the goodies on VMS are not available on VAX (PPP! support for instance, and ODS-5).   N I have no problem beleiving that Compaq will continue to support VAX customersH for a long time. But if Compaq realises that VAX customers don't upgradeN because their apps are "stale" and in "maintenance mode", then there is little@ point in continuing to work to produce new VMS versions on VAX.   J Compaq probably can't cost justify the continued development of VMS on VAX9 just to please the VMS hobbyist programme :-( :-( ;-( :-(5   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 12:29:18 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformr+ Message-ID: <h0ct7$mNnFOO@eisner.decus.org>   \ In article <3A6DB7CC.C44F12BC@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:# > steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:l >>  L >> But they're _not_ dropping it Fabio.  OpenVMS VAX is still alive and well? >> and has a long working career ahead of it before retirement.v > L > However, bear in Mind that Compaq has stopped selling VAX boxes as of lastN > decmber. And bear in mind that Compaq will soon have some webcast whose goal8 > is to convince customers to migrate from VAX to Alpha. > L > Bear in mind that many of the goodies on VMS are not available on VAX (PPP# > support for instance, and ODS-5).p > P > I have no problem beleiving that Compaq will continue to support VAX customersJ > for a long time. But if Compaq realises that VAX customers don't upgradeP > because their apps are "stale" and in "maintenance mode", then there is littleB > point in continuing to work to produce new VMS versions on VAX.  > L > Compaq probably can't cost justify the continued development of VMS on VAX; > just to please the VMS hobbyist programme :-( :-( ;-( :-(c    
 	Gee whiz....a  > 	How about telling us about a better upgrade or migration pathA 	for any other vendor with antiquated hardware!  VAX hand writing ? 	was on the wall when Alpha debuted in 1992.  It isn't a matter @ 	of IF it is a matter of WHEN.  They have handled the transition? 	to Alpha superbly.  Sure, not everyone can come along and theyc? 	will continue to make nudges in that direction.  What if there @ 	is a code freeze on VAX/VMS in VMS 7.4?   Or a code freeze whenC 	VAX revenues fall to 3% of the total?  Oh the horror of it all !!!.  9 	I'm inclined to believe Andrew can compose better FUD.  0   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:24:50 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s? Subject: Re: Is Compaq dropping support for vms on vax platformn, Message-ID: <3A6DCC6A.7480942B@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:J >         for any other vendor with antiquated hardware!  VAX hand writingH >         was on the wall when Alpha debuted in 1992.  It isn't a matter' >         of IF it is a matter of WHEN.   F The problem is that while the handwriting was on the wall, the companyN continued to promise that VAX-VMS would continue to be upgraded/supported withL no end in sight. It took 8 years for Digital to stop selling Vaxes. How longE did it take Apple to stop selling 68000 based systems after its firsta0 powerPCbased macs were sold ? Months  ? a year ?  # >  They have handled the transitionp >         to Alpha superbly.  I If they had done such a great job, they wouldn't have been demand for VAX K hardware for 8 years after the introduction of the Alpha. Had they providedwI VEST with every alpha sold, and made it work on any executable (includingtL software packages which Digital had decided not to port to Alpha), I suspect@ that the migration to Alpha would have been much more succesful.  K Note that Apple did a superb job of almost transparently migrating from one0M platform to the other with its built-in "automatic" equivalent to FX!32 which L transparently executed 68k binaries (including many/most extentions/drivers) on the PowerPc.o    M The VMS engineers may have done a good technical job of porting VMS to Alpha,uL but not the bean counters. It took many years before there was any migrationM package to allow Message-Router based customers to Migrate to Mailbus-400 andeG X.500 products (whose functionality was included in MR). Prior to that,o2 customers were expected to buy brand new licenses.  H >         will continue to make nudges in that direction.  What if there1 >         is a code freeze on VAX/VMS in VMS 7.4?d  L It is to be expected that at one point in the future, new versions of the OSM won't be produced for VAX. Apple provided new versions of MACos for 68k baseduL machines for a couple of years and then stopped. So Digital/Compaq have doneM this for at least 8 years and counting. (note that since the first release onCM Alpha was not as capable as that on VAX, perhaps one should start the counter-A when the VMS versions on Alpha were numbered the same as on VAX).a  L The problem isn't so much the fact that VAX support will be dropped, but HOWM Compaq will handle it. Obviously, it is pointless to make any commitments forcM VAX if you don't even know if you're going to be keeping VMS. But if they areaN going to keep VMS, I would think that a company should give its customers someG information on how it intends to proceed with the phase out of the vax.:  ! 1-stop producing VAC chips (done).$ 2-stop selling vaxes (recently done)J 3-stop producing new versions of VMS, with at least 2 VMS release's noticeC   (eg: this is the next to last VMS release that will support VAX).oJ 4-Commit to support VAX-VMS as a mature product for X years following last
 release date.m  M I would have expected to see such a roadmap when Compaq announced the stop ofa VAX sales last year.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:55:10 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <agreig@my-deja.com> - Subject: Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 brokeno8 Message-ID: <sloq6tcito4s1p51jctf7skuj6i0p80lq8@4ax.com>  2 On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:26:25 +0000, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:s   >. Unfortunately one ofe7 >most interesting figures is not well displayed with myc@ >ghostscript or the figure is damaged. It is the graph on page 49 >named "New OS at SOSP". Is correctly displayed with yourd? >equipment? I only see the frame and the text around not single- >dot inside.  @ Even printing via DCPS to a supported HP with genuine Postscript# nothing s displayed inside the box.    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:15:15 +0000.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> . Subject: Re: Lowercase filenames on VMS V7.2-1, Message-ID: <3A6D59B3.FB397B94@infopuls.com>   Jim Strehlow wrote:r > J > I happened to encounter an ugly situation on OpenVMS Alpha with Oracle a > couple of months ago.lM > Someone created a table using Microsoft Access and used a Microsoft tool to?C > export it directly to a new table in Oracle on the OpenVMS Alpha.iJ > Unfortunately, one column name out of 40 columns contained one lowercase > character. > K > Oracle internally converts everything to UPPERCASE ... except for the one-9 > Microsoft tool that directly built the table in Oracle. K > Thus, no one could subsequently do anything with the data in that column.uF > We had to drop the entire table as there was no way to get Oracle toE > recognize a lowercase column name ... since it should never happen.g > 3 > That was for Oracle v8.05 on Alpha OpenVMS v7.1-2= > 9 > (We are probably just touching the tip of the iceberg.). >   > Jim Strehlow, jims@data911.com( > Senior Applications Analyst, DBA, etc. >   = Oracle normally supports mixed case table and column names on : all platforms I know. If you want to access those names as8 opposed to pure uppercase names you have to enclose that= specific names in quotation marks. Good luck - and don't drop  those tables! :-)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:16:39 +0100r- From: Alexander Eisenhuth <stacom@topmail.de> 
 Subject: makes* Message-ID: <3A6DA057.BB148876@topmail.de>   Hallo,  O I'm new to this list (and to VMS). Exist there a make utility comparable to thet	 gnu-make?e   Cheers	 Alexander    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:16:56 +0100i- From: Alexander Eisenhuth <stacom@topmail.de>h
 Subject: make * Message-ID: <3A6DA068.28955805@topmail.de>   Hallo,  O I'm new to this list (and to VMS). Exist there a make utility comparable to theu	 gnu-make?s   Cheers	 AlexanderX   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:45:26 -0500a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: make L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2301011045260001@user-2ivebif.dialup.mindspring.com>  Y In article <3A6DA057.BB148876@topmail.de>, Alexander Eisenhuth <stacom@topmail.de> wrote:c   > Hallo, > Q > I'm new to this list (and to VMS). Exist there a make utility comparable to thee > gnu-make?a    i I believe this is covered in the FAQ, which you can find in one or two clicks via www.openvms.compaq.com.a  x The short answer is yes, there are several possibilites.  They range from free to expensive, depending on what you want.   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:09 GMTt2 From: seibel_r@localhost.localdomain (Rich Seibel) Subject: Re: make ; Message-ID: <slrn96rkh4.9no.seibel_r@localhost.localdomain>h  L On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:16:56 +0100, Alexander Eisenhuth <stacom@topmail.de>  wrote: >Hallo,- >-P >I'm new to this list (and to VMS). Exist there a make utility comparable to the
 >gnu-make? >. >Cheersd
 >Alexander  I You might also check out the GNV tools.  They worked for me where nothing.	 else did.w http://gnv.sourceforge.net/n   -- rD --------------------------------------------------------------------D Rich Seibel, Software Engineer                 (314)579-0066 ext 220D Object Computing, Inc.                           seibel_r@ociweb.comD Need ACE training?                      See http://www.theaceorb.comD --------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 09:26:32 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)* Subject: Re: New OpenVMS Times now on line+ Message-ID: <bSEWwC+vYPQc@eisner.decus.org>   K In article <94inrk$rsp$1@tomm.stsci.edu>, clark@sander.stsci.edu () writes:u > & > SubjecNew OpenVMS Times - Hubble Add > B > Just looked at the new issue.  The last page really burns me up. > F > Did you know that Hubble Space Telescope's top project is to get the1 > picture generation off of VMS and onto Solaris?r >   E Top project?  Hardly.  The current HST top project is SM3B.  No doubtaG replacing the image processing systems are a big move within STScI, butSA that harldy represents all of HST.  The new cooler alone probablyMI represents a higher investment than the STScI's image processing systems.:  9 Picture generation is only one part of the ground system.X  H Other VMS based parts of the ground system have already been retired and+ replaced with IRIX and WNT based solutions.s  A And many VMS based parts are here to stay, as are AIX and others.i  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:25:50 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>* Subject: Re: New OpenVMS Times now on line: Message-ID: <igib6.5505$cd.640095@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "Chris Scheers" <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote in message- news:3A6C6FF8.B7422AE6@applied-synergy.com...c > Paul Repacholi wrote:d > > 5 > > Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:b > >eG > > > However, I don't think that you are likely to find a VAX-750 on av plane! > >e? > > Not disagreeing, but what were the Nordan 752s used for on?d > > Anyone able to say?i > J > I'm not sure what a Nordan 752 is, but assuming that it is a militarizedF > 750, I had heard of some on a sub.  (Going WAY out on the rumor limb > here.)  J Yep. Norden *did* build milspec VAXen. And such beasts did find themselves* plying the hadal depths of the seven seas.   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 16:02:31 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)= Subject: Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the nicheh, Message-ID: <94k9un$li0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  O In article <3A6D0518.A850990A@isd.net>, Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net> writes:o >David Mathog wrote: >> ld >> In article <94aa7u$4v5@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: >> e9 >> Replying in one place to a bunch of different replies:t >> s >> >Keith Brown said: K >> >At my site we happen to throw lots of controllers and disk at our DUNIXiL >> >systems as well as our NT and OpenVMS systems.  Your accertion that thisE >> >is only done on VMS systems to increase IO performance is untrue.e >>  O >> I did not mean to imply that it was done ONLY to improve IO performance, but O >> rather that in these _already_ large systems the slow intrinsic IO was beinggK >> compensated for by extra hardware that would not have been required were- >> the base VMS IO faster.  
 <BIG SNIP> >0I >You obviously have spent much more time bench marking these two machinespI >than I have. I did want to note one thing however. We compared IO on VMS7A >and DUNIX with the HSZxx writeback cache turned off (just out oftH >curiosity) and we found that IO performance tanks with either OS. Maybe? >I've misinterpreted what you were saying but I expected bettereB >performance on the DUNIX box based on your comments and benchmark	 >results.e  F If you get the chance please do run the benchmarks (it will only take J a couple of minutes).  I am curious how things go on these larger systems.I I expect that VMS has the same problems there as on the smaller machines.mH And if that fact can be documented, then maybe the big boys that Compaq I does listen to apply enough pressure so that Compaq will put some effort s into fixing this problem.r   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:28:49 +0100 ) From: "Piet Timmers" <piet@timmers-it.nl>e Subject: NTP network load,, Message-ID: <94k0un$12unq$1@reader04.wxs.nl>   Hai,  H We want to setup an NTP service on our network, using two stratum-1 timeI servers and 14 stratum-2 nodes. Can someone tell me what the network loadwI will be when I setup all the stratum-2 nodes as peer nodes. The number ofoJ stratum-3 nodes will be around 410. Is it possible to let them synchronize with all the stratum-2 nodes.    Thanks.-   Piet Timmers piet@timmers-it.nl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:31:53 +0100o- From: "Ruzsinszky Attila" <aruzsi@mailbox.hu>  Subject: NTP on VMS 7.1a, Message-ID: <94jj1n$vl4$1@athena.euroweb.hu>  	 Hi There,S  B I am not familiar in VMS, but I'd like to syncronize DECdtss to anE NTP server. I tried to find any usable information on the Net. It wasi unsuccessfull.9 I don't find any config files, except enable/disable NTP.l  1 Would you be so kind as to help me configure NTP?e Our clock is too fast.   Thanks,o Attila Ruzsinszkyn Systemengineer   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:42:18 -0500h2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: NTP on VMS 7.1hL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2301011042190001@user-2ivebif.dialup.mindspring.com>  [ In article <94jj1n$vl4$1@athena.euroweb.hu>, "Ruzsinszky Attila" <aruzsi@mailbox.hu> wrote:r   > Hi There,x > D > I am not familiar in VMS, but I'd like to syncronize DECdtss to anG > NTP server. I tried to find any usable information on the Net. It was  > unsuccessfull.; > I don't find any config files, except enable/disable NTP.e > 3 > Would you be so kind as to help me configure NTP?p > Our clock is too fast.    / What OS version?  What platform (vax or alpha)?o  ?At VMS 7.1, vax only, there were some example routines.  I've been using the program that obtains the time from an external ntp server sets the clock in the local dtss server.  Then all the other VMS machines just use the painless dtss syncronization.  It appears to work just fine.  Look in the SYS$EXAMPLES directory.    For some reason, the examples were withdrawn from the alpha distribution.  There were rumors of bugs, but I haven't seen any.  If you find the examples, you can probably compile them for the alpha and try them out.   Due to the copyright notices, etc., I shouldn't send the examples.  You'll need to find your own media.  If you get that far, I can dig out my notes on configuring.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:06:52 -08007) From: Wayne Holland <wholland@tscnet.com>A Subject: Re: Oldtimer forgot!JO Message-ID: <BE76E3B377AFDD81.594DDCC69CAC5EA6.DFABD3399F5EF8CB@lp.airnews.net>e   Carl Perkins wrote:e > 2 > Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> writes...6 > }rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote:D > }>Each of the file names can be a simple name, a logical name thatK > }>translates to a file, or a full name with device, directory, file name,o > }>etc. > }cJ > }Another way, if he's going to do this often, is to use a linker OPTions* > }file.  See the Linker docs for details. > }--e > 5 > Another way that saves a lot of typing is to define-9 > LNK$LIBRARY logical names. The first one is, of course,n; > just LNK$LIBRARY but you can also have LNK$LIBRARY_1, _2,p< > etc. I have no idea what the upper limit o n the number is> > but I know it is at least 6 since I've got some defined that. > high (I would assume that it is at least 9). > - > These are automatically used by the linker.o > 
 > --- CarlH Thanks Carl!  I like getting all the alternatives to doing things.  I'll$ incorporate it and see what happens.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:09:35 -0800r) From: Wayne Holland <wholland@tscnet.com> ' Subject: Price of an entry level Alpha. O Message-ID: <D9C08DA292D1A1FB.5A83A949887201A5.64523A11EE0C7C11@lp.airnews.net>h  A I visited the Compaq site to check in on Alpha entry level systema prices.oF I didn't see any lists or apparent technical information there.  Maybe
 somebody can oF give me an idea of capabilities of Alphas at the entry level and their prices.%   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:40:41 +0100d  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>+ Subject: Re: Price of an entry level Alpha. + Message-ID: <VA.00000256.071f690c@sture.ch>    In article eE <D9C08DA292D1A1FB.5A83A949887201A5.64523A11EE0C7C11@lp.airnews.net>, m Wayne Holland wrote:B  I visited the Compaq site to check in on Alpha entry level system	 > prices.nH > I didn't see any lists or apparent technical information there.  Maybe > somebody can AH > give me an idea of capabilities of Alphas at the entry level and their	 > prices.  > G Some folks here have bagged Alphas on Ebay, but you need to be careful nF that they will run VMS, as some don't. Some were crippled to only run F NT/unix; Multias are not officially supported and have other problems.  F I can recommend www.islandco.com. I'm very happy with the second user B Alpha I got there. I've seen recommendations for one or two other  companies here too.t  F A lot depends on your budget and how comfortable you are playing with 	 hardware.t   ___e
 Paul Sture Switzerlanda   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:34:49 +0100T= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>l+ Subject: Re: Price of an entry level Alpha.e) Message-ID: <3A6D5039.FD544C55@gtech.com>t   Wayne Holland wrote:C > I visited the Compaq site to check in on Alpha entry level systemj	 > prices.tH > I didn't see any lists or apparent technical information there.  Maybe > somebody canH > give me an idea of capabilities of Alphas at the entry level and their	 > prices.t  ; For reasons I do not understand, then Compaq is not keen ona putting price info on the web.  > The Alpha entry level system is a DS10. You can find technical" information about that on the web.  < To get prices try call your local friendly Compaq enterprise& system dealer (if such a beast exist).   Or try go to www.islandco.com !i   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:02:16 GMTl( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>+ Subject: Re: Price of an entry level Alpha.o' Message-ID: <G7MHvs.Bn8@spcuna.spc.edu>e  , Arne Vajh?j <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:= > For reasons I do not understand, then Compaq is not keen ons  > putting price info on the web.  K   Actually, they're on the web. I'd modify your statement to "Compaq is notf& keen on having a functional web site".  K   Unfortunately, the URL is many times longer than it needs to be, and willaJ probably have changed by the time you read this. But the URL right now is:F http://vcmproapp02.compaq.com/aaconfigurator/index.html. Then click onI AlphaServers. Don't click on "Workstations" by mistake - there's only oneoG model, and it's only available in Tru64 Unix. You can configure a nice e7 Alpha workstation from the "AlphaServers" link, though.   I   I just poked around in a couple different languages and they don't seem G to provide prices for non-US customers, so you'll need to configure theoH server using US prices and then convert the currency as well as figuringL out what the usual import markup (VAT, etc.) is for the destination country.  4         Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com5         terry@tmk.com             Jersey City, NJ USA    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:24:16 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>o+ Subject: Re: Price of an entry level Alpha.-) Message-ID: <3A6DCC50.1B0FF88A@rdrop.com>5   Paul Sture wrote:n >  > In articleF > <D9C08DA292D1A1FB.5A83A949887201A5.64523A11EE0C7C11@lp.airnews.net>, > Wayne Holland wrote:D >  I visited the Compaq site to check in on Alpha entry level system > > prices.iJ > > I didn't see any lists or apparent technical information there.  Maybe > > somebody canJ > > give me an idea of capabilities of Alphas at the entry level and their > > prices.e > >aH > Some folks here have bagged Alphas on Ebay, but you need to be carefulG > that they will run VMS, as some don't. Some were crippled to only runSH > NT/unix; Multias are not officially supported and have other problems.  F The configurator on the Compaq website has never given me a base priceF for a machine- only prices for options.  (Unless a DS10 can be had forE $~2000 USD...)  I downloaded the windows configurator and it seems toB work normally.  C It takes a lot of poking, but you can get technical info out of theu website.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:34:43 -0500a2 From: "Jason McCormick" <jason.mccormick@lexi.com> Subject: Printing in VMS3 Message-ID: <3a6da49d$0$15873@wodc7nh1.news.uu.net>n  H Hi all.  I'm still working on adding a new printer to a VMS system.  I'mD using VMS 6.2.  I'm looking for a way to print a pre-made PostScriptH document on an HP printer and use duplex and legal paper as required.  IK can't edit the commands in the PostScript document because it's pre-made byoK another program.  So I need to tack commands on to the beginning and end ofoJ the document to have the printer know to use duplexing and legal paper.  I- have two questions I hope someone can answer:v  A 1) Is there a way to tack a command onto the end of a job via the.9 SETUP=(...) or other like command when you issue a PRINT?n  F 2) Does anyone have a good solution for taking a legal-paper formattedF document and make the HP print duplexing w/o modifying the PS document itself?o  H I've searched websites and mailing lists in vain for days trying to findB answers to these questions.  Any help would be very very very muchL appreciated.  The HP printer is an 8150 and that will do PJL, PCL5, PCL6 and PostScript.h   Thanks in advance!!    -- Jason McCormick   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 15:56:23 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)b Subject: Re: Printing in VMS0 Message-ID: <94k9j7$bf6$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  h In article <3a6da49d$0$15873@wodc7nh1.news.uu.net>, "Jason McCormick" <jason.mccormick@lexi.com> writes:I >Hi all.  I'm still working on adding a new printer to a VMS system.  I'm(E >using VMS 6.2.  I'm looking for a way to print a pre-made PostScript I >document on an HP printer and use duplex and legal paper as required.  I L >can't edit the commands in the PostScript document because it's pre-made byL >another program.  So I need to tack commands on to the beginning and end ofK >the document to have the printer know to use duplexing and legal paper.  Iu. >have two questions I hope someone can answer: >'B >1) Is there a way to tack a command onto the end of a job via the: >SETUP=(...) or other like command when you issue a PRINT?  D You may create a queue with the /SEPARATE=(RESET=module)) qualifier.  G >2) Does anyone have a good solution for taking a legal-paper formattedeG >document and make the HP print duplexing w/o modifying the PS documenti >itself?  O Install DCPS, then you have extensions to the PRINT command like (PARA=SIDES=2)1
 and the like.r   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann(  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 09:37:36 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)N Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware+ Message-ID: <7vOpJnqIGq1G@eisner.decus.org>   ] In article <3A6C0D1D.641878FA@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:- > ; > It also ingores the fact that IBM also provide much more 9; > in the way of platform support than Compaq do, the AS/400u6 > Java toolkit for example is a model of how one could9 > open OpenVMS services to Java apps if one put ones mindt	 > to it. d >   & Why would Compaq want to do that when:G  1) It's terribly close to what Microsoft was doing when Sun sued them. E  2) Who will want to use it in thier code?  Making use of it defeats e&     the portablility of the Java code.0  3) The JNI already covers the occaisional need.  F I can't see Compaq spending effort on something with little impact andG potential exposure to suit when the existing tool set already addresses 	 the need.h  G The latter was demonstrated a few months ago when Andrew posted similarhF comments.  50 lines of code made advanced RMS features accessable from Java.i   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationd= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupsE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:37:11 +0000S0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>N Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware* Message-ID: <3A6DC147.891F5982@uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > _ > In article <3A6C0D1D.641878FA@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:: > >O< > > It also ingores the fact that IBM also provide much more= > > in the way of platform support than Compaq do, the AS/400y8 > > Java toolkit for example is a model of how one could; > > open OpenVMS services to Java apps if one put ones mindr
 > > to it. > >s > ( > Why would Compaq want to do that when:I >  1) It's terribly close to what Microsoft was doing when Sun sued them.oF >  2) Who will want to use it in thier code?  Making use of it defeats( >     the portablility of the Java code.2 >  3) The JNI already covers the occaisional need. >   . Rubbish it is nothing like what Microsoft did.  0 Microsoft changed the behaviour of classes that . developers would expect to be standard across # any platform and hid those changes.s  2 IBM are providing a set of classes for the AS/400 / which give access to AS/400 services and which .0 also provides a JDBC -> DB2/400 interface. They 3 are not hidden in what people expect to be standard  classes.  . Well of course if you are trying to develop a 3 cross platform application where all the componentss0 in your application can run on any platform then this would be true.c  3 On the other hand if you were simply trying to makei0 it easier to get access to services that run on 2 As/400's to make it easier to integrate the AS/400/ into the rest of your environment then the IBM l toolkit is a very usefull item.y  1 What would you prefer, people continually rollingc3 their own when it comes to OpenVMS->Java interfacesi2 or a set of classes supplied, supported and tested1 by Compaq that do this for you. If you answer is O' rolling your own then god help OpenVMS.s  H > I can't see Compaq spending effort on something with little impact andI > potential exposure to suit when the existing tool set already addressesM > the need.  > I > The latter was demonstrated a few months ago when Andrew posted similartH > comments.  50 lines of code made advanced RMS features accessable from > Java.  > 7 But not all features and not supported by anyone, what u9 happens if there is a bug in the 50 lines of code offeredn& up, who fixes it, who supports it etc.  5 What about access to OpenVMS process queues and othero4 services, the AS/400 toolkit gives you this sort of  service for OS/400.    Regardst Andrew Harrisond Enterprise IT Architectw   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:21:29 -0000l* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>Y Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardware  question)y, Message-ID: <94kb24$146e@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  [ "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:3A6D9128.BD0683D6@gtech.com...   ' > AFAIK then Mozilla requires JDK 1.3 !a  ; Unfortunately no. It only supports versions later than 1.3.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:48:47 +0000r0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>W Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)t* Message-ID: <3A6D618F.25C053A3@uk.sun.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:  > , > In article <3A6C7B09.73FED248@uk.sun.com>,4 > andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: > >Jordan Henderson wrote: > >>< > >> >Either you were b******TING when you said that OpenVMS9 > >> >was a "little late" or you didn't know about 1.3 in 9 > >> >which case you were just stating an opinion without-! > >> >being equipped to make one.1 > >> > > >>7 > >> I claim I did know about 1.3.  You claim I didn't.:8 > >> Seeing as other vendors hadn't come out with 1.3 at6 > >> the time, I felt justified in calling it a little
 > >> late. > >> > >t2 > >I know what you claim, the problem is your past. > >postings do not support this claim and your2 > >allegation that OpenVMS's JVM support is only a > >little late.  > >  > * > This is bizaare.  If you review what was2 > ACTUALLY SAID at the time, you see quite clearly$ > that I was very well aware of 1.3. >   * Sorry yet again you have missed the point.  * You asserted incorrectly that OpenVMS Java support is only a little late. e  ) If you thought that 1.2.x was the currenti' Java release then you could be excused e- for making this statement on the grounds thatA, you were ignorant of how out of date OpenVMS Java support actually is.a  . If you knew that 1.3.x was the current release. then you knew that your statement that OpenVMS. support is only a little late was untrue when  you made it.  . Which do you prefer ignorance or falsehood ???    B > This is where this statement that you insist is so inaccurate isB > introduced.  Here, I say that Compaq is a "little behind" (not a& > "little late" as we've been saying). >   ! And you accuse me of being picky.tB > Note the reference to Java 1.3?  Note that I didn't say anything? > about 1.2 being the most up-to-date as you earlier contended?h >   / So you are admitting to deliberately trying to t. misslead. If you knew as you point out you did. that 1.3 is the current VM then you also knew ! that "a little behind" was false.r    @ > Now, are you going to answer the question as to why Sun hasn't  > published any JBB2000 numbers? >   / Why should I bother Jordan, you introduced the c* false claim that Compaq had the best Java , benchmark results. It seems hardly worth the, effort discussing something that is based on" a blatantly false premise does it.  + I will respond to your claim if you make it-, again when it is true, if for example Compaq, do publish a SPEC JBB2000 number that is the fastest result.d  & <a whole lot of Jordans bluff deleted>   regards6 Andrew Harrison9 Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:25:00 +0000.0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>W Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)l* Message-ID: <3A6D6A0C.26F830B8@uk.sun.com>   Christof Brass wrote:  >  > Jordan Henderson wrote:f> > > I wouldn't have said it was a little out of date had I not? > > known about the existence of 1.3, would I have?  Of course,h< > > I still contend that 1.2 is just a "little out of date".; > > The gross majority of existing Java commercial softwarey > > still supports it. > >1: > > If we're talking about inaccuracies, you just recently< > > accused me of saying that 1.2 was the most recent, which > > you've been unable back up.e > >  > ? > I'm familiar with the Java language and standards developmento
 > since 1995.lB > It is true that 1.2 is the most important version. VisualAge for@ > Java has only recently been upgraded to 1.2. A lot of software' > is happy with even earlier versions. :    6 You don't say from this whether you agree with Jordan 2 when he said that OpenVMS support for Java is only a "little behind".  > You are right in one sense 1.2.X is the most important release< because a lot of apps vendors have standardised on 1.2.x or : later as their tested platform. BEA and a number of other   vendors fall into this category.  7 There are however now quite a few apps that require 1.3d< I am working on a project which uses a 3rd party application, written entirely in Java that requires 1.3.   ? But your arguments that not having 1.3 support isn't important e= are almost identical to the people who argued that not havingC? oracle 8i on OpenVMS wasn't a problem because few people at them& time would be deploying 8i based apps.  = The people who disagreed with this argument were the ones who = either did require 8i, they had apps that needed it. Or they  = were people who wanted to develop, test etc using 8i because A9 they would be deploying 8i apps in the future. This is anl2 identical schenario to not having 1.3 for OpenVMS.  @ This of course ingnores the fact that OpenVMS does not currently> have  complete 1.2.X support either. The Java 1.2.X plugin is > not available yet for OpenVMS and Mozilla for OpenVMS will not$ be able to support Java until it is.     Regardsr Andrew Harrisonm Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 08:49:44 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)_W Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)1* Message-ID: <94k25o$j6d$1@lisa.gemair.com>  * In article <3A6D618F.25C053A3@uk.sun.com>,2 andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >Jordan Henderson wrote: >> a- >> In article <3A6C7B09.73FED248@uk.sun.com>, 5 >> andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:  >> >Jordan Henderson wrote:a >> >>c= >> >> >Either you were b******TING when you said that OpenVMSi: >> >> >was a "little late" or you didn't know about 1.3 in: >> >> >which case you were just stating an opinion without" >> >> >being equipped to make one. >> >> >. >> >> 8 >> >> I claim I did know about 1.3.  You claim I didn't.9 >> >> Seeing as other vendors hadn't come out with 1.3 ata7 >> >> the time, I felt justified in calling it a littlei >> >> late.t >> >>. >> >3 >> >I know what you claim, the problem is your past-/ >> >postings do not support this claim and your23 >> >allegation that OpenVMS's JVM support is only au >> >little late. >> > >> l+ >> This is bizaare.  If you review what wass3 >> ACTUALLY SAID at the time, you see quite clearlye% >> that I was very well aware of 1.3.t >> o >q+ >Sorry yet again you have missed the point.  >.+ >You asserted incorrectly that OpenVMS Javay  >support is only a little late.  >e* >If you thought that 1.2.x was the current( >Java release then you could be excused . >for making this statement on the grounds that- >you were ignorant of how out of date OpenVMSg >Java support actually is. >c/ >If you knew that 1.3.x was the current releasen/ >then you knew that your statement that OpenVMSm/ >support is only a little late was untrue when a
 >you made it.6 >n/ >Which do you prefer ignorance or falsehood ???  >m  - Neither.  As I've explained, I don't considerk- a year, or even more, more than a little lateh/ when it comes to language standards compliance.o  - Somehow, you just can't seem to carry forwardi+ my explanations into the quoted portions of / your replies.  You must assume that many peoplep. here only read the last message in a thread so. as to catch up on all of the discussion at one time.    > C >> This is where this statement that you insist is so inaccurate is-C >> introduced.  Here, I say that Compaq is a "little behind" (not aw' >> "little late" as we've been saying).e >> n >t" >And you accuse me of being picky.C >> Note the reference to Java 1.3?  Note that I didn't say anythingD@ >> about 1.2 being the most up-to-date as you earlier contended? >> a > 0 >So you are admitting to deliberately trying to / >misslead. If you knew as you point out you did / >that 1.3 is the current VM then you also knew i" >that "a little behind" was false. >c  2 Not false, a matter of opinion.  Is this the best 1 you can come up with of all the many inaccuraciese4 you allude I've made wrt Java?  Laughable!  Somehow,4 you've failed to respond, again, to real substantive0 inaccuracies you've stated on this very subject.   >eA >> Now, are you going to answer the question as to why Sun hasn'tt! >> published any JBB2000 numbers?g >> m > 0 >Why should I bother Jordan, you introduced the + >false claim that Compaq had the best Java .- >benchmark results. It seems hardly worth thet- >effort discussing something that is based on # >a blatantly false premise does it.o >t  * Compaq does have the best JVM98 benchmark 0 results, so there is truth to the statement that+ Compaq has the best Java benchmark results..  , >I will respond to your claim if you make it- >again when it is true, if for example Compaq - >do publish a SPEC JBB2000 number that is the  >fastest result. >n  + Seems like a dodge to me.  So, I can assumee+ you have no answer.  Here, I'll provide onen) for you.  Sun hasn't provided any JBB2000I+ benchmark results because those would be aso) pathetic as their previous JVM98 results.r  - For the interested, take a look at this page:n  2   http://www.spec.org/osg/jvm98/results/jvm98.html  ' ><a whole lot of Jordans bluff deleted>e >o >regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   -Jordan Hendersonn jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:11:53 +0100D= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>tW Subject: Re: Rehash of Andrew's Java on OpenVMS FUD.  (was: Re: GS160 hardwarequestion)') Message-ID: <3A6D9128.BD0683D6@gtech.com>a   andrew harrison wrote:B > This of course ingnores the fact that OpenVMS does not currently? > have  complete 1.2.X support either. The Java 1.2.X plugin isC@ > not available yet for OpenVMS and Mozilla for OpenVMS will not& > be able to support Java until it is.   ????  % AFAIK then Mozilla requires JDK 1.3 !n   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 07:06:32 GMT5 From: ccburgess@uqstu.jdstory.uq.edu.au (Ian Burgess)eU Subject: Re: Script to read directory of all drives, clustered, shared, etc. at once?w. Message-ID: <94jaho$2pf$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>  K In article <94hocm$ptl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, john_20_28_2000@yahoo.com writes:r >Is there a DCL script to: >cE >Read the directory of all drives, clustered, shared, etc. at once by H >just running a command file and maybe saving it to an output?  I wanted> >to be able to use wildcards in the command file with the DIR. >nD >I guess you could create a DCL command file that has all your driveE >names and accepts a parameter for DIR from the command line.  But, I'> >did not know if this was the correct way to proceed.  Thanks. >e  D There are elegant solutions that will be better in the general case,? but since you are in a particular case, the following is simple2H and very versatile.  You include only the disks you want, no NFS or CDs.  4  $ !  ALL.COM  -- Do a command on all disks in order  $ !&  $ 'P1' dsk1:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !&  $ 'P1' dsk2:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !&  $ 'P1' dsk3:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !&  $ 'P1' dsk4:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !&  $ 'P1' dsk5:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !&  $ 'P1' dsk6:'P2' 'P3'  'P4' 'P5'    !  $Exit     	 Examples:h   $ @ALL DIR [SYSLOST]/OWNER,   $ @ALL /OUT=TEMP SEARCH [*]LOGIN.COM "UCX"&   $ @ALL /OUT=TEMP "SHOW DEVICE" /FULL or even1O   $ Submit ALL/param=(dir,"[*...]/excl=[VMS$COMMON...]/col=1/nohead/notrail") -,(      /log=all_files.txt/after="tom+4:00"   Cheers, 
        IanG -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---G Ian Burgess                                     I.Burgess@its.uq.edu.auiG Information Technology Services                 Phone:   61 7 336 54074nG Prentice Building                                          0401 993 458s The University of QueenslandG BRISBANE AUSTRALIA 4072                               www.its.uq.edu.au-   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2001 09:57:02 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)U Subject: Re: Script to read directory of all drives, clustered, shared, etc. at once?r+ Message-ID: <qbik1k8Ah6gD@eisner.decus.org>o  K In article <94hocm$ptl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, john_20_28_2000@yahoo.com writes:o > Is there a DCL script to:n >   C I just use a search list which I put in sys$manager:sylogicals.com:   H $define/system/nolog all_disk sys$sysdevice:,user1:,user2:,user3:,user4:  O then any user with similar directories on multiple disks can do something like:l   $dir all_disk:[jones...]  2 or with READALL I can really search all the disks:   $dir all_disk:[*...]  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group-E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingi   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:07:54 +0000 (UTC)s' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>e0 Subject: Re: Source for used StorageWorks disks?, Message-ID: <94je4q$oi4$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  # Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:e$ > It's more like grey=old, blue=new.. > Best to look at the label on front of brick./ > Model numbers ending in -VA=narrow, -VW=wide..7 > Inside the SCSI diamond you should see something likeD	 >     	10k	 >     	--a
 >     	F10) > Top number: Transfer rate in Mbytes/secOJ > Bottom: Bus speed S=5/sec (slow), F10=10 MB/sec (fast), F20 (ultra), ...< > to Lower Left of diamond: SCSI bus width: N=narrow, W=WideL > To lower right of diamond: shelf compatability: N=narrow, W=Wide, N/W=both  L > If it's grey and doesn't have a label on the front, chances are it's slow * > narrow.  Look at model number on bottom.  C How about the drive connector. Is there easy way to find out if theu# connector is CSA type for example? t  G If the drive is ultra wide and markings are 20,F10,W,W (fast, wide, notoA ultra), is it possible to get to ultra wide (40 MB/s) by changingi SCSI adapter only?   regardse          Osmo Kujala   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:52:08 GMTa From: Didier.Morandi@gmx.fr 3 Subject: stop decw$session = kill SUN CDE server... ) Message-ID: <94k9b3$ve2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   F I had to fix a SUN Sparkstation 5 connexion problem to an Alpha via X.9 The Customer telnets the Alpha, then his login.com does a    $ rhost = -tD   f$ex(f$loc("Ho",f$getd(f$getj("","terminal"),"TT_ACCPORNAM"))+6, -D        f$loc("Po",f$getd(f$getj("","terminal"),"TT_ACCPORNAM"))-7, -?                   f$getd(f$getj("","terminal"),"TT_ACCPORNAM")) 4 $ if rhost .nes. "" then set dis/c/t=tcpip/n='rhost'   (no, I don't joke)  E and his X windows session should appear. Actually, the Alpha is a new B machine and his host node name was not defined in the local TCP-IPE database, this is why it didn't work. So I went to my Mac and did thesE set dis/c/t=tcpip/n=his_address command, then a $ mc decw$session andr here is the Xwindows session!n  C The problem is that when he wanted to close the session, he got theoE whristwatch (sp?) and nothing. On the reply/enabled DCL window of thee Mac, I got the following:e  ( X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string' "-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-P-*  -ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct    + System Menu Bar: Pseudo Mouse not availablea  @ X Error of failed request:  BadAccess (attempt to access private resource deniedu )a6   Major opcode of failed request:  109 (X_ChangeHosts)<                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<-- ???$ Serial number of failed request:  24-   Current serial number in output stream:  41t4 %XLIB-E-ERROREVENT, error event received from server ^   D so I ^Yed the decw$session and... can you imagine what happened? His" whole SUN sessions disappeared :-(  * (happy, the Customer, I don't tell you...) D.     Sent via Deja.coma http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:23:34 GMTc From: rjdurkee@yahoo.com! Subject: terminal server questiong) Message-ID: <94k44s$qai$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   F It sometimes looks like I'm going backwards in technology as I have to@ connect a DECServer 700 terminal server to my Alpha 4100 runningD OpenVMS 7.1. However I am unfamilar with this device and most of theE documentation is no longer available. Right now I have two questions..G 1. When I connect a VT510 dumb terminal to the 1st port on the terminalu? server, nothing happens. The cursor just blinks but there is noF< communication with the terminal srever. I am pretty sure theG communication parameters are set properly. The only thing I am not sure*D of the the cable to use. The terminal server has 8 ports and each isF the old 25 pin serial connection. The VT510 has the ability to use theA same type of connector. I found a cable that connects up but thatIG doesn't mean it is the right one. Anybody know the correct cable to usevD to connect the VT510. I also have to connect a modem to the terminal% server. What cable do I use for that? G 2. After I use LATCP to create and set the port, I would like to changen@ some of the parameters of the terminal that is created, by usingG the "set term" command at the OpenVMS prompt. However whenever I try tor> change the "No Modem" parameter to "Modem" I get an error thatF says "Error modifying LTA21:, Unsupported Operation or Function". What would cause that error?    Thanks for your help Rich Durkeea     Sent via Deja.comt http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:34:18 -0700e From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>e% Subject: Re: terminal server questionw' Message-ID: <3A6DCEAA.B9727B55@srv.net>l   rjdurkee@yahoo.com wrote:3 > H > It sometimes looks like I'm going backwards in technology as I have toB > connect a DECServer 700 terminal server to my Alpha 4100 runningF > OpenVMS 7.1. However I am unfamilar with this device and most of theG > documentation is no longer available. Right now I have two questions. I > 1. When I connect a VT510 dumb terminal to the 1st port on the terminal A > server, nothing happens. The cursor just blinks but there is noa> > communication with the terminal srever. I am pretty sure the  8 Is it just the first port that won't talk, or all ports?E If it is all ports, then try a "null modem" (available at RadioShack,iF Office Max, Staples, ... in the cable departments, should be < $10.00)E This block just makes it easier than trying to build your own cables.tB Radio shack also sells a rs232 monitor (has leds for various wiresA on the cable) that is useful. If only one of tx/rx is lit up, youm@ need a null modem. If both are lit up, wiring is probably ok. If! neither, you have major problems.t  A If it is jsut the first port, check that line from a working port B (sho port 1 at the "local" prompt), and check to see if it has bee set up as a printer.  I > communication parameters are set properly. The only thing I am not surefF > of the the cable to use. The terminal server has 8 ports and each isH > the old 25 pin serial connection. The VT510 has the ability to use theC > same type of connector. I found a cable that connects up but thatfI > doesn't mean it is the right one. Anybody know the correct cable to use-F > to connect the VT510. I also have to connect a modem to the terminal' > server. What cable do I use for that? I > 2. After I use LATCP to create and set the port, I would like to changefB > some of the parameters of the terminal that is created, by usingI > the "set term" command at the OpenVMS prompt. However whenever I try toi@ > change the "No Modem" parameter to "Modem" I get an error thatH > says "Error modifying LTA21:, Unsupported Operation or Function". What > would cause that error?   A Does the 700 support modem control? If so, you may need to set ita? up at the "local" prompt. you can connect to the server throughe9 NCP "connect via sva-0 phy addr xx.xx.xx.xx" or some sucha= to get a local prompt (look on the back of the server for the  physical address).   -- v@ The people who vote do not determine the outcome of an election,6 it is the people who count the votes  -- Joseph Stalin  ? The counting isn't done, until the Democrats have won -- Algoret   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:04:39 GMT2% From: Uwe Zessin <zessin@my-deja.com> 6 Subject: Re: Urgent:Error recovering files from backup) Message-ID: <94jae5$6es$1@nnrp1.deja.com>p  0 In article <01c08500$4a096dc0$0f754718@cs918188- a.edmw1.ab.wave.home.com>,,   "Rob Brown" <robbrown@shaw.wave.ca> wrote: > ; > Nivlesh Chandra <NChandra001@itc.gov.fj> wrote in articleaH > <791C2856E8FDD211BAFB0008C759919501A62B3A@exchange01.govnet.gov.fj>...G > > I have a tape that contains a backup that was done using the backupbA > > command in VMS. Now when I try and recover the file I get theg > > following errorh > >i8 > > excessive error rate reading $2$MKA300:[000000]*.*;* > > software header crc errore  
 According to:s      $ HELP /MESSAGE "header crc" you save-set is corrupt :-(.  @ I am not sure if you can _try_ to extract data from the save-setB anyway by using /noCRC as an input qualifier. Something like e.g.:2     $ BACKUP  tape:SAVESET.BCK /noCRC  disk:[*...]  B > Others will tell you that to specify VMS version number and alsoB > the complete text of the error messages, including the facility, > severity, and ident. >c7 > > $ backup $2$mka300:[000000]bak-13-12-99.bck;1 /save  > disk44:[recover...]*.*;*2 > > /log /list=disk$scratch:bak.lis /nocrc /rewind* >                                   ^^^^^^B > /nocrc is *always* a bad idea isn't it?  I quote from the BACKUP > documentation: ><5 > >>> note that use of /NOCRC reduces processing timew* > >>> but increases the risk of data loss.  7 Looks like a 'no operation' in the command above to me.>  C > I admit that I am unclear about the relationship between /CRC andH > /GROUP_SIZE.  D CRC is used to detect a corrupted save-set. Redundancy groups enable BACKUP to recover bad blocks.   E > In this case I am not sure what it does.  It can be either an inputoB > save set qualifier or an output save set qualifier, but you haveC > specified it for an output file.  Did you create the saveset withiC > /NOCRC? My immediate inclination would be to leave it off and seee > how it works.a  B I agree. I _have_ seen corrupted save-sets that I have created via DECnet on a remote node:B $ BACKUP filespec NODE"user password"::SAVESET.BCK/SAVE_SET/VERIFY  C > > Then since I was getting so much error.. I thought I would just A > > copy the saveset onto the disk and then recover .. I used theh > > following commandl > >eC > > $ backup $2$mka300:[000000]*.*;* disk44:[test]*.*;* /log /nocrcy >h> > That is not the command to copy the saveset onto disk.  Use: >J" >   $ mount/override=id $2$mka300:4 >   $ copy/log $2$mka300:[000000]*.*;* disk44:[test]  A Of course, that only works when the record size is <= 32256 bytes A and it won't help with a corrupted save-set (but I guess you knowJ that ;-)   --
 Uwe Zessin3 (If you want to send mail, please use user "zessin"t/ who lives at "decus.decus.de", not my-deja.com)s     Sent via Deja.com  http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:21:53 GMTm* From: Alan E. Feldman <alan48@my-deja.com>6 Subject: Re: Urgent:Error recovering files from backup) Message-ID: <94k41o$q96$1@nnrp1.deja.com>n  ) In article <94jae5$6es$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, (   Uwe Zessin <zessin@my-deja.com> wrote:2 > In article <01c08500$4a096dc0$0f754718@cs918188- > a.edmw1.ab.wave.home.com>,. >   "Rob Brown" <robbrown@shaw.wave.ca> wrote: > >f= > > Nivlesh Chandra <NChandra001@itc.gov.fj> wrote in articlet > > F <791C2856E8FDD211BAFB0008C759919501A62B3A@exchange01.govnet.gov.fj>...B > > > I have a tape that contains a backup that was done using the backupC > > > command in VMS. Now when I try and recover the file I get the  > > > following error  > > >t: > > > excessive error rate reading $2$MKA300:[000000]*.*;* > > > software header crc errorS >o > According to:o" >     $ HELP /MESSAGE "header crc" > you save-set is corrupt :-(o >iB > I am not sure if you can _try_ to extract data from the save-setD > anyway by using /noCRC as an input qualifier. Something like e.g.:4 >     $ BACKUP  tape:SAVESET.BCK /noCRC  disk:[*...] >eD > > Others will tell you that to specify VMS version number and alsoD > > the complete text of the error messages, including the facility, > > severity, and ident. > >N9 > > > $ backup $2$mka300:[000000]bak-13-12-99.bck;1 /save' > > disk44:[recover...]*.*;*4 > > > /log /list=disk$scratch:bak.lis /nocrc /rewind, > >                                   ^^^^^^D > > /nocrc is *always* a bad idea isn't it?  I quote from the BACKUP > > documentation: > >a7 > > >>> note that use of /NOCRC reduces processing time , > > >>> but increases the risk of data loss. >u9 > Looks like a 'no operation' in the command above to me.e >sE > > I admit that I am unclear about the relationship between /CRC and  > > /GROUP_SIZE. > F > CRC is used to detect a corrupted save-set. Redundancy groups enable > BACKUP to recover bad blocks.m >iG > > In this case I am not sure what it does.  It can be either an inputvD > > save set qualifier or an output save set qualifier, but you haveE > > specified it for an output file.  Did you create the saveset withrE > > /NOCRC? My immediate inclination would be to leave it off and see. > > how it works.t >vD > I agree. I _have_ seen corrupted save-sets that I have created via > DECnet on a remote node:D > $ BACKUP filespec NODE"user password"::SAVESET.BCK/SAVE_SET/VERIFY >-E > > > Then since I was getting so much error.. I thought I would justeC > > > copy the saveset onto the disk and then recover .. I used theh > > > following commandp > > >UE > > > $ backup $2$mka300:[000000]*.*;* disk44:[test]*.*;* /log /nocrcg > >c@ > > That is not the command to copy the saveset onto disk.  Use: > > $ > >   $ mount/override=id $2$mka300:6 > >   $ copy/log $2$mka300:[000000]*.*;* disk44:[test] >oC > Of course, that only works when the record size is <= 32256 byteslC > and it won't help with a corrupted save-set (but I guess you know 
 > that ;-) >r   Try cleaning the drive.-  + What kind of tape is it? 4mm? 8mm? 9-track?m   > -- > Uwe Zessin5 > (If you want to send mail, please use user "zessin"a1 > who lives at "decus.decus.de", not my-deja.com)a >n > Sent via Deja.comj > http://www.deja.com/ >a   --F NOTE: If you wish to e-mail me, please do NOT use the deja address. ItD is not a valid address. Instead, use the address below, removing the long wrong part first. Thanks.e   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  &-)( afeldman@gfigroup.ButItSaidItPrinted.com     Sent via Deja.coms http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:27:37 GMTl4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: vms not an option?d: Message-ID: <Zhib6.5514$cd.640648@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   RE: vms not an option?? "Bochnik, William J" <BochnikWJ@bernstein.com> wrote in message D news:2B37459189B0D211BE710000F8EF9D8508908B69@nts0147.beehive.com...K And "newbies" have a tendancy to look directly into them, and get "burned".o (Sorry, couldnt resist)n  L Well, I tried to buy a pair of Eclipse Glasses on eBay, but eBay was down...   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 08:21:18 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)'( Subject: Re: X-windows paradigm question0 Message-ID: <94jetu$182$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  \ In article <3A6CBC77.16066267@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:N >In an X-windows, exactly what processing is done by the server (the X-windowsC >terminal) and the client (the host with the application running) ?  > M >For instance, if one has a data entry window, does every keystroke result in-Q >the client code running, or does the x-terminal do a lot of the work by itself ?m  H X requires most the the work be done on the client (the "mainframe"). It6 includes heavy network traffic, thus lots of overhead.  M >I am trying to compare the x-terminal paradigm with that of HTTP. HTTP seems O >very very similar to the IBM CICS paradigm where once the screen is displayed,2M >the mainframe is detached from the terminal and the terminal "reattaches" toSH >its application (establishing context etc) once the user presses ENTER. >sO >Are there applications where HTTP can yield response times that are comparableoN >to that of 3270 terminals in the past ? Seems that HTTP has a lot of overhead >to process transactions.I  N I consider the HTTP approach a lot more similar to that of 3270 terminals (notO only CICS, VM or MVS as well). But there one big difference: whereas in the IBMpO world the mainframe knows about every connection that is currently active (even O if there is currently no data flow) the HTTP server does not. You need to tweak-G the latter in order to achieve this, e.g. it is up to you and up to the  operating system.S  J >If the new industry paradigm is to go away from client-server and insteadM >return to the "dumb terminal" approach because of simplified support, lesser N >complexity, easier management etc, I am just wondering which of the X-windows( >or HTTP/HTML paradigms would be better.  J The latter. But again, there are caveats. If you need transaction orientedN processing of different related tasks its no big deal either under CICS or X11 but really tricky with HTML.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 09:05:06 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)r( Subject: Re: X-windows paradigm question0 Message-ID: <94jhg2$182$2@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  X In article <3A6CE868.874F552F@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:8 >The IBM style has major disadvantages and unfortunately< >all the applications I have used had incredible ugly screen? >designs as compared to VT200 based applications. And the UI of > >these 3270 apps was very strange in that you could completely= >destroy the contents of the screen by moving around with thet= >text cursor and erasing text and putting in new at arbitrarye >positions. It was a real mess.d  F What you describe is an example of a completely improper design. TheseG IBM terminals were capable of generating and maintaing fields. A properCE setup of the terminals and a proper design wouldn't allow you to moveOF around the screen or erase text. In fact, you wouldn't even be able toH enter characters in a numeric field. And in order to generate such formsJ on a 3270 only a minimum of data flow between the host and the terminal isD required. Thus, never judge by only knowing a single representative.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannr  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:39:50 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> ( Subject: Re: X-windows paradigm question, Message-ID: <3A6D5F76.E25478C5@infopuls.com>   Christoph Gartmann wrote:e > Z > In article <3A6CE868.874F552F@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:: > >The IBM style has major disadvantages and unfortunately> > >all the applications I have used had incredible ugly screenA > >designs as compared to VT200 based applications. And the UI of @ > >these 3270 apps was very strange in that you could completely? > >destroy the contents of the screen by moving around with theo? > >text cursor and erasing text and putting in new at arbitraryo! > >positions. It was a real mess.n > H > What you describe is an example of a completely improper design. TheseI > IBM terminals were capable of generating and maintaing fields. A propereG > setup of the terminals and a proper design wouldn't allow you to move H > around the screen or erase text. In fact, you wouldn't even be able toJ > enter characters in a numeric field. And in order to generate such formsL > on a 3270 only a minimum of data flow between the host and the terminal isF > required. Thus, never judge by only knowing a single representative. > 
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmann  > J > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+J > | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |J > | Immunbiologie                                                        |J > | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |J > | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |J > +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+  < Seems so. Do you know exactly where the limitations with the> 3270 approach are compared to VT220? Could you do all sorts of> data verification after a user left an entry field? Honestly I? doubt that because it needs to have access to (all) the data ony> the host. Is it possible to silently inspect what the user has> done so far? Is is possible to set timeouts for data entry? Is= it possible to interact with the user before the user pressed: the return key?q   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2001 14:06:33 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) ( Subject: Re: X-windows paradigm question0 Message-ID: <94k359$8ev$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  X In article <3A6D5F76.E25478C5@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:= >Seems so. Do you know exactly where the limitations with thes% >3270 approach are compared to VT220?r  L Yes, I once tried to port an application from VM/CMS to VMS using VT330s ;-)  N >Could you do all sorts of data verification after a user left an entry field?  " Yes, but this a different approach  B >Is it possible to silently inspect what the user has done so far?  L Again yes, but in order to do this you have to use the 3270 like a VT220 and' you give up the advantages of the 3270.   / >Is is possible to set timeouts for data entry?s  " Yes, even in "standard 3270" mode.  A >Is it possible to interact with the user before the user pressedl >the return key?  % Yes, but again, you wouldn't to that.a  D IBM used a completely different approach here compared to Digital. AK VT-terminal sends every keystroke back to the host, the host has to echo itpJ and has to process it. The advantage is complete control at any stage, the disadvantage is overhead.a  O The IBM approach is to present a form on the terminal. The terminal knows where.N the form fields are, what colour they have, how they are protected. As long asM the user edits these fields nothing is sent to the host. Of course, keys likelL TAB (a 3270 has a tab-advance and a tab-back key [hope I guessed the EnglishH expressions properly]), BACKSPACE, CLEAR-FIELD, CURSOR-HOME etc. work asO expected. But this is all done by the terminal. Only when you press ENTER (noteuK that RETURN simply advances the cursor to the first input field on the nextaN available line) or a function key, data is sent back to the host, and only theH field contents is sent and you may direct the terminal to even send onlyJ modified fields back. So this is pretty similar to what you do with a HTMLN form. Basic input checking is done via the terminal, more advanced checking onN the host. And in case of a wrong input the host program forces the terminal toI redisplay the form, highlight the input field in question, put the cursorxO there and display a message or message window. Note that all this requires onlyoD a few bytes of data communication between the host and the terminal.  N It is possible to setup the IBM terminal so that it sends back every keystrokeK but this is not how 99,9% of the applications I know use the IBM terminals.-  O A VT330 has only very limited capabilities in this direction. The VAX approach sL is to do all processing on the host. Here the host has some special hardwareN design in order to facilitate this task. But I found the IBM approach superiorE to the VT concept, especially in commercial or business applications.@   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:49:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t( Subject: Re: X-windows paradigm question, Message-ID: <3A6DB5FE.A05A1E87@videotron.ca>   Christof Brass wrote:a> > Seems so. Do you know exactly where the limitations with the& > 3270 approach are compared to VT220?  G the 3270 is to HTTP what the VT220 is to X-windows. In the VT220, every9L keystroke is sent to the mainframe where some middleware such as FMS handlesJ basic cursor movement and recording of data, with the application handlingL certain key events (such as completion of form, request to redraw form etc).  N In that sense, the 3270 is just as capable as a basic FMS application. AbilityH to restrict fields to numeric or uppercase, validating field length, andK handling screen/cursor management. However, the 3270 does it all on its ownGM without requiring mainframe interaction. Where FMS has an edge is that it hasbL the ability to call a user application routine at the end of each field. (soJ the application can validate a field's value before the user is allowed to
 leave it.)  N The big restriction of the 3270 architeture is that any change of attribute onI the screen requires a black space. Changing from protected to unprotected 7 requires a space, as does changing from bold to normal.t     G Where HTTP/HTML has the big edge over 3270 terminals is that they have,aK through Javascript, the ability to do SOME basic field validation that doese not require host interaction.     @ > done so far? Is is possible to set timeouts for data entry? Is? > it possible to interact with the user before the user pressedd > the return key?l  G Yes, it is possible. Check out the equivalent of OPA0: for 3270s. TheirsM operator's console is far more sophisticaled that what we get on VMS. It will*D regularly poll the terminal and also do dynamic updates whenever the, equivalent of an opcom message is displayed.  H However, generally speaking, and this is most visible in CICS, while theL computer waits for the user to complete the screen, the screen is "detached"I from the host. In CICS, your application actually terminates after it has-N displayed the contents of the screen, and is re-activated once you press enterB (CICS maintains a knowledge of the terminal->application context.)  M This is similar to HTML forms that have a hidden field that allows the serversI to establish the context of the session.  (Some CICS applications use thee5 first 4 characters sent back by the 3270 to do this).v   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.046 ************************