0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 31 Jan 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 61      Contents:@ Re: Analsyst's conference speech now available in sectioned form Re: Another missed opportunity  Re: Archive methods and software  Re: Archive methods and software  Re: Archive methods and software Re: cms question6 Connector pinouts for MicroVAX 3100 Model 30 to VT 240: Re: Connector pinouts for MicroVAX 3100 Model 30 to VT 240% Re: Create a random (number) password % Re: Create a random (number) password  Re: Create a random number Create a random number& Re: DCPS: Toner low message aborts job# Re: DEC DBMS Schema Mismatch Errors # Re: DEC DBMS Schema Mismatch Errors  DSSI questions Re: DSSI questions dynamic linking with DECC  Re: dynamic linking with DECC  Re: dynamic linking with DECC  Re: dynamic linking with DECC / Firmware upgrade for PWS 600au to use a ZLXp-L1 3 Re: From Richard Marcello Vice President of OpenVMS 3 Re: From Richard Marcello Vice President of OpenVMS  Re: FTP to GDG fails  Re: GZIP companion:  SQUEEZE.COM Re: Himalaya / Alpha / VMS IP number on an HSG80 / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours / Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours $ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now$ Re: It's the end for VMS get off now JDBC connectivity $ Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken$ Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken$ Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken. Re: Midrange I/O with VMS WAS: DS20 - Slow I/O. Re: Midrange I/O with VMS WAS: DS20 - Slow I/O" Re: Monitoring external temprature# RE: New Elsa Graphic patch Location # Re: New Elsa Graphic patch Location 4 Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche4 Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche4 Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche4 Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche OpenVHS (funny!) Re: OpenVHS (funny!). OpenVMS+Perl 5.0.0305A (?) and EmuMail modules2 Re: OpenVMS+Perl 5.0.0305A (?) and EmuMail modules% Pathworks and Win2000, admin messages ) Re: Pathworks and Win2000, admin messages  Pathworks and Windows ME again# Re: Please help the mVAX newbie ...  posixc$cma.opt/ Re: Share Your Feelings About "The end for VMS" / Re: Share Your Feelings About "The end for VMS" ' The joys of unix - a real-world example  Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME Re: UCX Route problem P Re: VAX 6310, VAX 6320, HSC50 and a couple of SA600's - how to plug'em together?( Re: very sloooooow Glasfibre performance! Re: VMS actually mentioned but... ! Re: VMS actually mentioned but... 7 Re: VMS vs UNIX (was: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken) 	 Re: VT220 	 Re: VT220 	 RE: VT220 	 Re: VT220 * Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?* Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?* Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:14:08 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> I Subject: Re: Analsyst's conference speech now available in sectioned form , Message-ID: <3A778300.8F9CB0D0@infopuls.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  > E > The Compaq analysts conference is now available again on the Compaq F > web site. It is not in the same form as transmitted originally or inE > the form available for replay up to some time on Sunday. The replay @ > was taken offline for some time while changes were made in itsH > presentation. - the speeches have been split into manageable sections.G > I've quickly ganced at bits and hope that nothing has been edited out H > in the process although it would have been a good opportunity to do so > :-)  > H > Key sections are the last ten minutes of Winkler's speech. VMS mentionB > comes in last 2 minutes or so of Capellas second speech. He saidH > reasons to be cautious in the first half of the year not Q1 as I said.G > When he speaks of OpenVMS in key verticals currently then immediately F > talks of reasons to be cautious it is at best highly confusing if he> > really did switch  to Compaq in general rather than just VMS
 > verticals..  > D > Micheal Capellas has said to at least one party that mistakes wereD > made during the conference and he agrees that they got the balance= > wrong and that Compaq company policy may have actually been - > mis-stated. This will be corrected he says.  > F > Well it looks like someone got the message I just hope he means thatC > Compaq policy is not that key technologies will be transferred to H > W2K/Intel until Unx has been driven out everywhere - with the possibleE > exception of the *extreme* high end as seemingly stated rather than @ > this still being the plan but they shouldn't say it in public. > E > I encourage people to watch as much as possible because some of the D > key statements which did so much damage were said very briefly but: > clearly - possibly as departures from a prepared speech. > F > If anyone who saw it originally spots any edited out segments let usD > know. It doesn't, at first glance, appear to have been edited much? > beyond splitting into segments and Winkler's last few minutes H > definitely seems intact. But again if Capellas admits that the balanceH > was wrong at the original conference the temptation to remove the mostD > damaging soft-underbelly of Unix statements would always have beenB > there.  But only Microsoft so far has been known to go as far as > editing video replays  > H > Still no contradiction from anyone that the assertion that Compaq willA > only sell VMS if there is no possible other way of keeping that H > customer with another Compaq solution is true. But we can work on that > :-)  > @ > I have been told privately that at least one of the comments IG > attributed to Winkler may have actually been said by someone else but = > I'll need to find a  spare 5 hours to watch them all again.  > E > Would be nice to have the original completely unedited stream but I H > guess Compaq feel it needed to be presented in a more manageable form. > -- > Alan Greig  > Thank you and the others for detailed comments and analysis of
 the speeches. 9 What I basically cannot understand is how one company can > suppport more than one OS and OTH choose a style of presenting> one of these in a very rude way targetted against at least one? of the other supported ones. Driving out UNIX means driving out > Tru64. Or did I get something wrong? How will the UNIX and VMS; and ev. the NSK people feel within Compaq if they hear that : their OS will be killed? Is there something like civil war# within a company - or a revolution?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:44:40 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> ' Subject: Re: Another missed opportunity , Message-ID: <3A777C18.DF798B72@infopuls.com>   andrew harrison wrote:  9 > I think we are have a language problem. In this context 6 > may does not mean that there is some doubt about it.% > OpenVMS does have great clustering.    Point taken.   C > > This is a double misunderstanding. Besides the widespread abuse A > > of the technology which actually meant technique not having a D > > product available has *nothing* to do with technique. Are you in: > > product marketing or in analysing technical solutions?  6 > And I am not sure what your point is about technique6 > or abuse of technology. Having the latest version of5 > an environment is all about technology as is having 4 > for example a faster filesystem or one that can be > extended/shrunk online.   6 Basically "technology" is the discipline of *teaching*> technique. I know that languages develop by people using words in a different way but ...  < There is a difference between architecture and features, and@ there is a difference between features of an OS and the products@ on top of them. If you look at VMS technically you must not look> at the products available. To put is simple: technically *VMS*= is the same with or without a JVM or other products on top of  them. : Whereas it *makes* a difference in creating solutions if a< certain product is available this is basically a question of: management of time and budget and of market perception and< competition as long as you could do it, e.g. port the JVM by) yourself which is then a technical issue.   @ A counterexample: I would regard it as technically infeasable to? try to implement a UNIX filesystem which offers the whole range @ of VMS' file attributes (incl. ACLs). While it might be possible? to store these attributes the design of the UNIX filesystem API @ will prevent any efficient usage of them. Porting the latest JVM< to VMS is a huge amount of work and therefore takes a lot of< time but the result will be okay and smoothly integrate with VMS.   > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:26:44 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> ) Subject: Re: Archive methods and software / Message-ID: <3A77146D.7D7CF2B9@cableinet.co.uk>    Linda Luik wrote:  > I > My company is finally starting to take a serious look at how to archive H > data on VMS systems. We are chartered to archive certain types of dataG > 20 years or longer. I am clueless as to what is the best route. Using D > the BACKUP command sounds logical but will data backedup using theJ > BACKUP command always be readable by future OS versions? Is there actual< > archive software for VMS systems? Are there other methods? >   ( Outsourcing is very popular these days.   2 I have personally never had problems with savesetsA and newer VMS versions, I have been using VMS since V4.something.   B You can always write a File-11 or even a tar format tape if use ofH backup or accessibility from other OS's that don't support ANSI labelled tapes is an issue.  H You really need to define your requirements some more. What access timesG are required for the archived data? If its not same day, then offsiting  backup3 tapes (I'd recommend several copies might suffice).   4 Maybe archiving to CD or optical is also an option.   D With 20 year plus data retention you'll probably need to think about
 refreshingH the media every now and then. No figures off the top of my head, sorry.   F Hope this helps somewhat. I am in the middle of a similar (though less ambitious)  
 excercise.  	 > Thanks!  > Linda    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2001 03:48:37 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>) Subject: Re: Archive methods and software - Message-ID: <87vgqw4y96.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - Linda Luik <p14175@email.sps.mot.com> writes:   I > My company is finally starting to take a serious look at how to archive H > data on VMS systems. We are chartered to archive certain types of dataG > 20 years or longer. I am clueless as to what is the best route. Using D > the BACKUP command sounds logical but will data backedup using theJ > BACKUP command always be readable by future OS versions? Is there actual= > archive software for VMS systems? Are there other methods?    D Archive is NOT backup! But, that said, backup is a good choise. DLTsE are rated for 20 year life given suitable storage. Also IBM cartridge  tapes I guess.  ? The best I know of, is archivally processed silver micro-fiche.   - In both cases, multiple copies spread around.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:50:35 -0500 % From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian> ) Subject: Re: Archive methods and software $ Message-ID: <3a77282e$1@news.si.com>  2 >Is there actual archive software for VMS systems?  I Computer Associates markets CA-Archiver for VMS.  We use it.  It does the L job and will write to tape (8 track, DLT, etc.) or optical disk (we've never used the latter capability).  H The only drawback is the vendor.  Lousy people with whom to do business. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:36:19 -0500 % From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian>  Subject: Re: cms question " Message-ID: <3a7724d7@news.si.com>  H >I seem to be mssing the correct version of a file in cms.  When I do  aG >FETCH I get generation 3, say foo.sdl;3.  Elsewhere I have located the  right  >oneI >foo.sdl;4.  I would like to preserve the dates and such, so if I reserve  the  >file J >and the copy the right one into the same directory and then REPLACE, will >this  >accomplish the mission?   $ cms  set library foo_disk:[foodir] C reserve/out=nl: foo.sdl "Replacing current generation with another" 0 replace/in=otherdisk:[otherdirectory] foo.sdl ""    	 All done.  --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:17:14 -0500 . From: "Brian Walton" <brimus@gw.total-web.net>? Subject: Connector pinouts for MicroVAX 3100 Model 30 to VT 240 / Message-ID: <t7f0msb3o97g48@corp.supernews.com>   F Waht is the pin configuration to go from a MicroVAX 3100 model 30 (MMJJ connector) to a VT240 (DB25 connector) ? I have an adapter for MMJ to RJ45K and RJ45 to DB9 for a connection to a PC's serial port to use as a terminal J emulator, this works but I want to make a RJ45 to DB25 connector that will work with the VT240.  0 Thanks for any links/information on the pinouts,   Brian Walton   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:32:44 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> C Subject: Re: Connector pinouts for MicroVAX 3100 Model 30 to VT 240 - Message-ID: <3A77956C.89177FDC@earthlink.net>    Brian Walton wrote:  > H > Waht is the pin configuration to go from a MicroVAX 3100 model 30 (MMJL > connector) to a VT240 (DB25 connector) ? I have an adapter for MMJ to RJ45M > and RJ45 to DB9 for a connection to a PC's serial port to use as a terminal L > emulator, this works but I want to make a RJ45 to DB25 connector that will > work with the VT240. > 2 > Thanks for any links/information on the pinouts, >  > Brian Walton  A Try: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html#WIRES1  --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.l   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 01 11:14:16 PST From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.como. Subject: Re: Create a random (number) password( Message-ID: <cpCioHWvExiO@cpva.saic.com>  > In article <AvAd6.265664$hD4.64091231@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>,0  "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> writes:K > The user will never login, it is just for authentication only (using WASDaI > web server)   When the account is created from my helpdesk (basically aeJ > batch job) I need it to generate the password then.  I also need to knowJ > what that password is (get from log file)   The SET PASSWORD/GENERATE isK > interactive so that's out of the questions unless there is a undocumentedr  K Are you sure about interactive only? Try the following in batch and inspecte
 the log...  % $ assign/user password.tmp sys$outputM $ set password/generatei batch  $ open/read pw password.tmpo $ read pw xh $ read pw xe
 $ close pw $ delete/erase password.tmp;0  $ show symbol xs   > feature somewhere. >  > Dave >  > . > "Roy Omond" <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in message% > news:3A768B12.59C7612F@Omond.net...c >> Dave Pampreen wrote:  >>L >> > Does anyone have a program which creates random passwords?   I'd prefer > aiB >> > Fortran example, but I can convert it from most any language. >>D >> Any particular reason not to use the existing VMS random password > generatoro >> ? >>& >> I.e.    $ set password/generate[=n] >> >> Roy Omond >> Blue Bubble Ltd.y >> >> >> >> >  >  -- t - Jim  --A mailto:James.F.McKinney@cpmx.SAIC.com | SAIC PSC | (617) 484-8063f   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:38:39 GMT - From: "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com>I. Subject: Re: Create a random (number) password> Message-ID: <PUKd6.267928$hD4.64494287@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>  I That was the magic I was looking for...Duh, I should have thought of thats one.   Dave* <mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com> wrote in message" news:cpCioHWvExiO@cpva.saic.com...@ > In article <AvAd6.265664$hD4.64091231@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>,2 >  "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> writes:H > > The user will never login, it is just for authentication only (using WASDK > > web server)   When the account is created from my helpdesk (basically aAL > > batch job) I need it to generate the password then.  I also need to knowL > > what that password is (get from log file)   The SET PASSWORD/GENERATE is@ > > interactive so that's out of the questions unless there is a undocumented > E > Are you sure about interactive only? Try the following in batch anda inspectw > the log... > ' > $ assign/user password.tmp sys$outputo > $ set password/generateO > batchd > $ open/read pw password.tmpe
 > $ read pw x 
 > $ read pw xe > $ close pw > $ delete/erase password.tmp;0c > $ show symbol xu >d > > feature somewhere. > >s > > Dave > >t > >f0 > > "Roy Omond" <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in message' > > news:3A768B12.59C7612F@Omond.net...o > >> Dave Pampreen wrote:p > >>G > >> > Does anyone have a program which creates random passwords?   I'd  prefer > > a D > >> > Fortran example, but I can convert it from most any language. > >>F > >> Any particular reason not to use the existing VMS random password
 > > generatorc > >> ? > >>( > >> I.e.    $ set password/generate[=n] > >> > >> Roy Omond > >> Blue Bubble Ltd.r > >> > >> > >> > >> > >. > >e > -- > - Jim: > --C > mailto:James.F.McKinney@cpmx.SAIC.com | SAIC PSC | (617) 484-8063t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:04:43 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>a# Subject: Re: Create a random numbero) Message-ID: <3A772C6B.2F82FD4C@gtech.com>o   Dave Pampreen wrote:K > Does anyone have a program which creates random passwords?   I'd prefer a ? > Fortran example, but I can convert it from most any language.   0 A very simple example in Pascal is available at:  3 http://www.hhs.dk/anonymous/pub/vms/misc/pw_gen.pasr   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:27:49 -050002 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> Subject: Create a random numberk7 Message-ID: <200101310028_MC2-C3A9-83D8@compuserve.com>n           How about DCL??s  &         See SYS$MANAGER:NETCONFIG.COM.  ' Message text written by "Dave Pampreen",J >Does anyone have a program which creates random passwords?   I'd prefer = a = Fortran example, but I can convert it from most any language.l <o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:09:59 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>t/ Subject: Re: DCPS: Toner low message aborts jobs3 Message-ID: <3A771F97.A9AA8937@applied-synergy.com>   : I'm aware of the games you can play with toner cartridges.  D The real problem is that DCPS sees the low toner warning message andH aborts the print jobs, quite often without any notification.  (When I do@ get a notification, it is a DCPS banner page with the error "Job	 Timeout".t  E Is there a way to configure DCPS to either (1) ignore this message orlC (2) not abort the job, but intterupt it like it does for tray emptya	 messages?s     "Webb, William W" wrote: > 4 > I'm sure you're looking for software commands, and > this answer isn't it.p > 5 > Totally unsupported and not tested on your printer.h6 > Shared at no charge, and worth what you paid for it: > 6 > Low Toner messages can be "put off" for a bit if you5 > remove the toner cartridge. hold it by each end andD: > gently shake it around its long axis the way you do when; > it's new to distribute the toner evenly in the cartridge.t' > (the same way a rolling pin rotates).o > > > Note:  If your toner cartridge is open-ended and pushes into8 > the printer endwise, this might not be a good idea ;-) > < > It's saved my but under a tight deadline situation before. >  > WWWebb >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET * > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:55 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET- > Subject: DCPS: Toner low message aborts jobn > J > I have a NEC SilentWriter 95f printer (PS Level 2) configured under DCPS* > V1.8 as the "unrecognized" printer type. >  > Everything works fine EXCEPT:n > I > When the toner gets low, the printer sends a "toner low" message.  DCPSpF > seems to interpret this as an error and aborts the job.  Quite oftenH > this results in no printed output and no OPCOM messages.  The job just
 > disappears.. > I > Does anyone know of a way to get DCPS to ignore the toner low messages?- >  > Configuration: >  >      Alpha VMS V6.1i >      DCPS V1.8  >      printer connected via LAT > I > -----------------------------------------------------------------------J& > Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. > D > Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com >   Fax: 817-237-3074      -- eG -----------------------------------------------------------------------o$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com r   Fax: 817-237-3074a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:35:08 -0500A' From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov>3, Subject: Re: DEC DBMS Schema Mismatch Errors+ Message-ID: <3A77257C.AC6C6F2F@y12.doe.gov>o   Barry,  N      I know nothing of your configuration, but I have posted on another threadK about a problem we experienced a few years back where our DBMS Verify wouldrN fail intermittently.  What I discovered was that our shadowsets had gotten outH of synch from one building to the other.  Whenever the verify ran on theJ processor in building A, it would get the information from the half of theN shadowset in that building and fail.  When it ran on the processor in buildingG B, it would get the information from the other half of the shadowset ineE building B and would succeed.  After calling customer support, it was H determined that we needed to apply a shadowing patch.  Our problem wouldK appear every few months.  I could correct by removing the disk with the badeM information from the shadowset and then add it back into the shadowset with asM full copy operation.  I do not remember what the versions of DBMS or VMS werea. on at the time, but I suspect VMS was at V6.1.  
 Dale A. Marcy . Science Applications International Corporation   "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote: > H > I know that this is probably not the best place for this question, butJ > I'm open to recommendations as we have been running the old DEC DBMS 4.31 > for eons without Compaq and now Oracle support.E > H > I have a situation where say nine out of ten times a program runs justI > fine, but once in a blue moon it complains with a SSVERSION error which H > is basically a mismatch of the schemas used to compile the program andH > the actual schema in the database.  I'm at a loss as to why it chokes,
 > any ideas??e >  > Barry  >  > -- > A > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO  > C > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:41:10 GMTd- From: "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com>e, Subject: Re: DEC DBMS Schema Mismatch Errors> Message-ID: <aXKd6.267935$hD4.64496658@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>  L CAMUS does not (will not) ever force CA maintenance (ACK)    As long as yourC a member of CAMUS you can use the listserv.     You can get info atS
 WWW.CAMUS.ORG    Dave  6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com> wrote in message" news:3A76EF5E.47703C57@mmaz.com... > Dave Pampreen wrote: >r6 > > Which MANMAN commands and which version of MANMAN? >oG > These are the two which have the problem and they choke at the MANMAN  erroreG > line of 122 which is a rollback early in the code before it even getsW rolling.K > What is a real bummer is that the days counts are not created or they areS lostJ > when either of these commands fail, which makes the next days work twice asF > much.  I'm not real popular with our material control people at this time...e >t2 > FREEZE STORES INVENTORY                  (U,820)2 > UPDATE STORES INVENTORY                  (U,840) >  > L > > As far as CA helping, they lost Alison, Kevin and John late last year soL > > their DEC support side sucks.  From what I gather, the HP side is trying to > > pick up the slack. > > H > > Are you part of CAMUS?  If so, send it to the listserv there and you might. > > get some help. >mA > No, is CAMUS available for the 'unwashed' that does not have CAi maintenance of	 > MANMAN?2 >  > Barry  >  > -- >IA > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOe >EC > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028o >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:01:17 GMTi" From: robert_dirosario@my-deja.com Subject: DSSI questions:) Message-ID: <957dj8$sdv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>u  G I'm almost done building the computer room in the basement of my house,nB and I'm starting to work on getting my hobbyist VAX cluster up and% running.  I have some DSSI questions.n  H I have a 4000-105, two 3400's and several uV/VS3100's for my cluster.  IF want to use the 4000 and one of the 3400's with a R215F for my cluster disk.t  H What is the length limit for the DSSI bus?  (It looks like I'll be usingF two BC21M-09 DSSI cables.  DSSI channel 0 on the 4000 will have a pairC of internal RF-35 drives.  Channel 1 will be connected to the R215Fo? which will hold an RF-73 and two RF-72 drives, and will also be 3 connected one of the 3400s with an internal RF-71.)C  H What is the part number for the disk drive mounting hardware that mounts an  RF-72 drive in a R215F box?s  F Where can I find jumper settings for the RF-35, RF-71, RF-72 and RF-73 drives?y  E Where can I find information on the plastic drive ID plugs?  Both then= RF-73 in the R215F and the RF-71 in the 3400 are set to ID 0.M  B And,one last question.  What's the part number for the nonstandard@ (120V)  power cord that fits the 3400 and b400x  power supply's?  	 Thank you-     Sent via Deja.com- http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 01:50:11 GMTu1 From: thompson_nospam@athenet.net (Paul Thompson)  Subject: Re: DSSI questionsr< Message-ID: <nbKd6.46067$lh.2888035@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>  F Found this on some spec sheet: "The maximum DSSI bus length supported,I i.e., the total distance between end-node terminators on the DSSI bus, isyH 82 feet/25 meters in a Computer Room environment, 65.6 feet/20 meters in an Office Environment."   ) In article <957dj8$sdv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, % 	robert_dirosario@my-deja.com writes:n  J > What is the length limit for the DSSI bus?  (It looks like I'll be usingH > two BC21M-09 DSSI cables.  DSSI channel 0 on the 4000 will have a pairE > of internal RF-35 drives.  Channel 1 will be connected to the R215FeA > which will hold an RF-73 and two RF-72 drives, and will also bee5 > connected one of the 3400s with an internal RF-71.)o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:00:51 GMTp From: erber@my-deja.comr" Subject: dynamic linking with DECC) Message-ID: <95730s$ht5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>b   Hi,h  B can anybody tell me the name of the runtime function to activate a shared image from a C program?! In Ada it is lib$findimage or so?    thanks in advancem   Jakobe     Sent via Deja.como http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:17:52 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comw& Subject: Re: dynamic linking with DECCD Message-ID: <OF0AC64CD0.264CBFB3-ON882569E4.0069B2A4@foundation.com>  G Same thing - that's an underlying VMS routine. It's not part of the Ada I language, it's accessible from any language. I think you'll find its fullf name is LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL.   Shanee          + erber@my-deja.com on 01/30/2001 11:00:51 AMo   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:o  # Subject:  dynamic linking with DECCl     Hi,   B can anybody tell me the name of the runtime function to activate a shared image from a C program?! In Ada it is lib$findimage or so?e   thanks in advance    Jakobt     Sent via Deja.comd http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:30:42 +0100 . From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>& Subject: Re: dynamic linking with DECC, Message-ID: <9574im$3of$1@news.inet.tele.dk>  H <erber@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95730s$ht5$1@nnrp1.deja.com...D > can anybody tell me the name of the runtime function to activate a  > shared image from a C program?# > In Ada it is lib$findimage or so?  >t lib$find_image_symbol    information available by sayinge  . $ help rtl_routines lib$ lib$find_image_symbol       Best regards     Jesper Naur    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 19:18:18 -05002 From: malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg)& Subject: Re: dynamic linking with DECC+ Message-ID: <zm0H$vg9qzSC@eisner.decus.org>a  ) In article <95730s$ht5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,e erber@my-deja.com writes:t > Hi,  >m- > can anybody tell me the name of the runtimer7 > function to activate a shared image from a C program?f# > In Ada it is lib$findimage or so?r  B As others have pointed out there is the LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL thatC can be called from most programming languages on OpenVMS, includingc C.  A If you are running OpenVMS 7.2 or OpenVMS 7.2-1, you can also useT= the more C friendly dlopen() dlclose() dlsym() and dlerror().    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:03:24 +0000r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 8 Subject: Firmware upgrade for PWS 600au to use a ZLXp-L1, Message-ID: <3A77483C.4AA9D5BD@infopuls.com>  7 I got the information that there was a firmware upgrade-; available for the 600au to support the high quality ZLZp-L1r= graphics card with VMS. Unfortunately this firmware which hasm< been used for another 600au went away with the death of that< box. Therefore the firmware is gone at the moment and Compaq@ doesn't know about and recommends using one of the supported low end graphics cards.   = Is there anybody around who knows where to get this firmware? = I'm not asking for service free of charge though I appreciatet moderate prices!   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:16:14 GMT: From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>< Subject: Re: From Richard Marcello Vice President of OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3A774B39.86D6F148@home.nl>a  > Let me start with giving Compaq some credit for this reaction.M It means that marketing and / or public relations people at Compaq are (made)jH aware of the discussions that are going on in this newsgroup. And in allP fairness it is not an every day event that the vice president of a large companyL reacts in a newsgroup. There are plenty of newsgroups about certain productsO where the company involved never reacts in the newsgroup. In this group we haveuP Hoff, Kerry and others from Compaq reacting and assisting us, and that is great.  O On the other hand complaints about the marketing of VMS are plentiful and in my O opinion justified. How often does one see customers begging a company to markete6 a product ? With VMS this has been going on for years.  H Discussions about operating systems quite often have a kind of religiousJ character, and we can see that in this newsgroup. Those who are frequentlyI posting messages about the direction of VMS can roughly be divided in thedK faithful believers and in the disappointed believers. Oh yes, and one paganfF Enterprise Architect. The disappointed  believers are most likely moreD disappointed in their church (= Compaq) as in their believe (= VMS).  O And what does Compaq do ? They send missionaries to the believers, telling them N what a great operating system they have and what great things they can do withP it. But the believers already believe, and Compaq should send their missionaries to the pagans.  O In clear text: as long as Compaq does not back up their renaissance efforts forgK VMS with a minimum amount of marketing and advertising outside (!!!) of thecE existing group of VMS customers, all these efforts are met with great M scepticism. The reasoning is very simple: if Compaq is really serious about a M VMS renaissance they will advertise it.  If they don't advertise it, they arerO not serious. Compaq claimed to have invested something like 225 million dollarsoO in VMS last year (AFAIK). But what is the use of investing millions of $$$ in a K product that is not marketed ? As long as Compaq advertisements for VMS arewM about as rare as the Blue Mauritius, all efforts of VMS staff at companies to P convince their management to stay with VMS are nullified by Compaq's own lack ofO public marketing for VMS. Compaq does not market it, so Compaq does not believel in it.  M Last year at Ensa@work in Nice, the European marketing manager for Europe wasoM asked about VMS advertising. And he was happy to announce there would be somedN ads in a French magazine. So everyone was very excited, and could we have someP ads in our country too please ? Oh no, just in France.... This is realy pathetic when you think about it.  O So as long as Compaq doesn't show to the outside world (=outside VMS customers)>O that they believe in VMS and they want to market it, these paranoid discussionsrP about the End Of VMS will pop up every month or so. I wonder if anyone at CompaqO has ever tried to calculate how much this scepticism with VMS customers (!!) ise costing them...   N The message to Rich Marcello is clear: Put your money where your mouth is. GetO your marketing in in order, so that these discussions among the believers don'tmP pop up every month. Give us a good advertising campaign to show to our managers.; See, Compaq is publicly advertising VMS, it is not dead !!!e( It's a start, and it is so simple ......   Regards,   Dirk   Sue Skonetski wrote:  F > This is posted at Rich's request, the To:  line has been removed for
 > privacy. >a
 > Regards, >i > Suet >rL > There is absolutely no change in the VMS strategy - we continue to executeK > per our plans and we had a good quarter in q4 with single digit growth. ItN > would be happy to send you a copy of my VMS commitment letter which has beenK > approved by the corporation. Michael clearly supports the contents of thebK > memo, though you are free to ask him for his own commitment letter if you2	 > prefer._ >-N > I have read the transcript of the meeting and you misunderstood his commentsN > around "reasons to be cautious". He was referring to the general outlook for" > the market in Q1 and not to VMS. >sN > Finally, I have a contract with EDS to help me support VMS products and theyI > are fully committed to the product. If you send me the names of the EDS5B > folks, I will have someone from corporate EDS set them straight. >:C > While Michael didn't mention VMS as much as you would like in hisaN > presentation, he did mention Alpha quite a bit. In almost all of those casesK > and in his comments around vertical segments, his examples actually had ab > vms component to them. >tM > Sorry for the confusion. We are as fully committed to VMS today was we wereeL > when we last spoke. If anyone else had a negative reaction to the meeting,H > please send them my way so I can help them understand that VMS will be > around for a very long time. >s	 > thanks,  >b > Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:23:48 +0000h) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>r< Subject: Re: From Richard Marcello Vice President of OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3A778544.3AA1364A@infopuls.com>  ! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:  > K > While I do not subscribe to what I consider over-reactions to omission in  > Michael'snQ > comments, I would remind Rich to remind Michael that you only get one chance todQ > make a good first impression and that this audience is on his side spiritually,e > but itO > needs serious reinforcement from outside our community to keep hope alive and O > every missed oportunity is an irretrievable setback, and we hate it when that N > happens and it happens all too often and the results are herebefore evident. > P > [Whenever I feel afraid / I whistle a happy tune / and every single time / the< > happiness in the tune / convinces me that I'm not afraid.] > 6 > susan.skonetski@compaq.com on 01/30/2001 08:15:28 AM >  > To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comh6 > cc:    (bcc: Norm Raphael/Worcester/Neles-Jamesbury); > Subject:  From Richard Marcello Vice President of OpenVMSs > F > This is posted at Rich's request, the To:  line has been removed for
 > privacy. > 
 > Regards, >  > Suel > L > There is absolutely no change in the VMS strategy - we continue to executeK > per our plans and we had a good quarter in q4 with single digit growth. I N > would be happy to send you a copy of my VMS commitment letter which has beenK > approved by the corporation. Michael clearly supports the contents of the-K > memo, though you are free to ask him for his own commitment letter if you7	 > prefer.  > N > I have read the transcript of the meeting and you misunderstood his commentsN > around "reasons to be cautious". He was referring to the general outlook for" > the market in Q1 and not to VMS. > N > Finally, I have a contract with EDS to help me support VMS products and theyI > are fully committed to the product. If you send me the names of the EDSAB > folks, I will have someone from corporate EDS set them straight. > C > While Michael didn't mention VMS as much as you would like in hisrN > presentation, he did mention Alpha quite a bit. In almost all of those casesK > and in his comments around vertical segments, his examples actually had ao > vms component to them. > M > Sorry for the confusion. We are as fully committed to VMS today was we wereiL > when we last spoke. If anyone else had a negative reaction to the meeting,H > please send them my way so I can help them understand that VMS will be > around for a very long time. > 	 > thanks,l >  > Rich  2 And takes a lot of energy and time for discussion.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:06:09 -0500,+ From: Brad Hamilton <Brad.Hamilton@fmr.com>a Subject: Re: FTP to GDG failsw' Message-ID: <3A771EB1.388A0CB2@fmr.com>o  $ I noticed that our script does this:  2 put focas$prod12:[drpt]r347.dat;1 "focas.r347(+1)" 				  ^              ^  & (double quote instead of single quote)   Would that work?     "Cokely, Jay" wrote: > M > We are having problems FTP'ing from a DEC machine to a GDG (Generation dataIJ > set) in an IBM/MVS environment.  FTP's to non GDG names work fine.   TheI > script below works from other environments but fails with the followingo > message on the DEC processor.n > E >         554 Requested action not taken: GDG name conversion failed.  >  > The script used follows:N > **************************************************************************** > $set default sys$login3 > $ftp /user=$XYZS02W /pass=??????? n1etso.grum.comm > asciioN > quote site filetype=seq cylinders primary=50 secondary=25 recfm=fb lrecl=869) > put dwhead.txt 'ISDW.ROSS.HEADERIN(+1)'a > exitN > ****************************************************************************0 > ********************************************** > L > Any ideas as to why this doesn't work, or where I might find documentation > of the "554" error?D > 	 > Thanks,d >  > Jay Cokely  0655/32j > PHONE (310) 332-3977 > FAX      (310) 263-5303D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:23:18 -0600l7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> ) Subject: Re: GZIP companion:  SQUEEZE.COM - Message-ID: <3A779336.106EBEA5@earthlink.net>e   "Keith A. Lewis" wrote:e > D > This utility saves the RMS attributes of a file and then GZIPs it. > [DCL code snipped]  % But: is GZIP really worth the effort?o  E InfoZIP ZIP does this just fine, can include more than one file in ankE archive, and even preserves directory structures and version numbers.e  D ZIP has been ported everywhere that GZIP has been ported, AFAIK, and2 maybe even a places where GZIP hasn't been ported.  F Some folks complained that earlier versions (earlier than V2.3) of ZIPD (and V5.4-2 of UNZIP) didn't handle files over 2GB in size. Again, IC question the wisdom of doing that, though I do understand that some) applications may require it.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:00:55 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>.# Subject: Re: Himalaya / Alpha / VMS6, Message-ID: <3A777FE7.61CFA8B1@infopuls.com>   Terry C Shannon wrote: > 6 > On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com wrote: > G > > On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:43:48 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t
 > > wrote: > >e > > >Hoff Hoffman wrote:_ > > >> In article <3A735EB9.9BEE165D@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: N > > >>   Himalaya will be moving to Alpha, with the implementation of lockstep5 > > >>   in the next Alpha microprocessor core (EV7).o > > >>] > > >What did Winkler mean when he failed to mention this as the future for Himalaya and saidk\ > > >that Tandem/Himalaya technology was about to be implemented on Intel? Was he just plain[ > > >wrong. If so where is the retraction? I take it you are not denying that he said this?3 > >t. > > perhaps Winkler meant the Tandem/ServerNET5 > > SAN stuff,  more so than the Himalaya technology.  > >n1 > > I recall talk in the past as far back as 1997n4 > > about Tandem implementing some NonStop features, > > as a layer on top of NT ...  > >, > H > Correct. If you have any knowledge of the Himalaya architecture, you'dL > realize that implementing NSK technology on Inte--or other--chips would beI > difficult indeed (if it was easy, CPQ would have Alpha-Inside Himalayasa	 > today).  > K > I'm sure we'll see NonStop features atop Win2K at some point. Some of thevK > NonStop stuff already is appearing in Tru64 UNIX. And FYI, CPQ planned to D > port its NonStop SQL database to Windows; this project was dropped5 > concurrent with the cancellation of Win2K on Alpha.   : If lockstep weren't needed Compaq hadn't implemented it in Alpha.7 If lockstep is needed NSK wouldn't run on Intel without. implementing it some IA-XY.e= Will Intel do that. Probably not because the high revenues ofa2 this niche market wouldn't go into Intel's pocket.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:17:01 +1300b9 From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nnnoospam.met.co.nz>l Subject: IP number on an HSG802 Message-ID: <UlLd6.5041$Ac6.110348@ozemail.com.au>  % How do I add an ip number to an hsg80r    & I believe that you can web enable them  & so that you can access them and change( their configuration instead of using the cli.     anyone else tried this?e       antony   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:17:58 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>u8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild RumoursD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301414090.25261-100000@world.std.com>  ) On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Tim Llewellyn wrote:    >  >  > John Vottero wrote:n > > > > "Terry C Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in messageB > > news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0101291316370.28218-100000@world.std.com... > > >  > >0
 > > [snip] > > O > > > The Death of VMS rumour is pure, unadulterated codswallop. This accordingsJ > > > to Michael Capellas and Rich Marcello. If you are concerned, contact! > > > richard.marcello@compaq.comn > > > O > > > Perpetuating a specious and unfounded rumour on comp.os.vms can only help P > > > competitors spread FUD. Such postings do nothing to incease he credibility( > > > of the posters in the eyes of CPQ. > > >M > >iO > > Please send your compaints about rumours to Michael Capellas.  He's the onelE > > that started the rumour by pretending that OpenVMS doesn't exist!  > B > Agreed, plus Michael or Rich could at least post something here. >   H That certainly wouldn't hurt! I suspect this has not taken place becauseE CPQ might feel such a response would be equivalent to responding to ajJ "when did you stop beating your wife" allegation. If it was my decision toH make, I'd have posted a Compaq Clarification several days ago to set the record straight.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:26:24 GMTn- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>?8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild RumoursD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>  ( On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, John Vottero wrote:   > H > "Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)" <GlennEverhart@FirstUSA.com> wrote in message <snip>F > > The matter should be considered closed; CEOs tend to have a lot onF > > their plates. Can we please PLEASE bury this dead horse and get on > > with our lives???n > >d > K > WHAT??   There's a dead horse???   Do mean VMS??   Is VMS dead?  Is VMS aeN > horse??  Or do you mean that VMS is being put out to pasture??  Does VMS run > any glue factories?e >  > :-)   G I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit tocG www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farminguI industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder whyi= CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow...t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:38:02 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours, Message-ID: <3A771818.E47E2D93@videotron.ca>  + re: plug above the BNC video-out connector.   ? I beleived (past tense) it was for an optional built-in modem. 0  L However, I checked the VT220 manuals I have (including te big thick one thatK came in the cardboard box reminiscent of PC books), and while the cutout ishC always shown on the diagrams, there is never anthing said about it.q  L So, I decided to take out the cutout on one of the Vt220s I have and low and' below, it too has that 8-bit connector.n  N Maybe I should take one of my disabled Vt200s apart and see what is written on  the board next to the connector.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:04:58 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours, Message-ID: <3A771E67.77E4644D@videotron.ca>   "Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)" wrote:s > @ > MC has privately responded to at least 2 folks now that I know> > that the statement alluded to was not intended to cover VMS.  G But the end result is that VMS was neglected. And Compaq missed a greattE opportunity to show that VMS had turned around and was growing again.p  D > The matter should be considered closed; CEOs tend to have a lot onD > their plates. Can we please PLEASE bury this dead horse and get on > with our lives???a  J Sure, we can  put our head in the sand and not notice what Compaq does andM doesn't do. But Compaq has sbown that it will not, by itself, leverage all ofdH VMS' potential and make it a key platform that is part of its corportateI products.  Marcello has shown that no matter how hard he tries, the othertJ forces whithin Compaq manage to monopolize advertising and PR time and VMS* never gets mentioned with any seriousness.  L Mentioning a token "VMS" word in an hour long speech just so that *we* can'tM argue that Compaq didn't mention VMS is not a technique designed to push VMS,i* it is designed to shut the VMS supporters.  K If we didn't notice the constant VMS omissions and didn't constantly remind.- Compaq about them, it would NEVER get fixed. a  E We can shut-up when Compaq takes the initiatives to push VMS into theh0 limelight at every opportunity it has BY ITSELF.  N We need compaq to make VMS noises just to show that VMS is in fact quite aliveG so that we can convince customers/employers to stay with VMS. We're notsS talking about pushing new sales here, we're talking about preserving existing ones.!  J If Capellas is ready to send individual letters to each VMS customer, thenN things are worse than I thought.  Would Bill Gates send millions of letters toK customers to tell them not to worry about the breakup of Microsoft ? No, heeN would use the PR machine to send a lound and clear message. Sending infividualL letters means that the customer base for VMS has shrunk to a point where the5 CEO of Compaq can talk to the customers individually.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:05:55 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)m8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours0 Message-ID: <009F6E56.9BB37CEF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >  >e) >On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, John Vottero wrote:o >n >>  I >> "Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)" <GlennEverhart@FirstUSA.com> wrote in messaged ><snip>lG >> > The matter should be considered closed; CEOs tend to have a lot on G >> > their plates. Can we please PLEASE bury this dead horse and get ond >> > with our lives??? >> > >> oL >> WHAT??   There's a dead horse???   Do mean VMS??   Is VMS dead?  Is VMS aO >> horse??  Or do you mean that VMS is being put out to pasture??  Does VMS run  >> any glue factories? >> a >> :-) >dH >I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit toH >www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farmingJ >industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder why> >CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow... >i  I Wow!  Not only is VMS a user-friendly system but it is also cow-friendly:M  $ <QUOTE from page at www.delaval.com>  H VMS has numerous cow-friendly features found nowhere else on the market.   <END QUOTE>    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMu            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2001 03:52:12 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours- Message-ID: <87r91k4y37.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  / Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:o  : >  If it was my decision to make, I'd have posted a Compaq< > Clarification several days ago to set the record straight.  = Given the weekend, Davros, and forward comitments, plus paperrB shuffeling, I'd expect a few days into the week would be 'instant'   Opps, make that 'Davos' ;)   -- s< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2001 14:15:00 PSTT From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515)8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours3 Message-ID: <aGVjfzcUhr08@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>a  E In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>, i4     	Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: [...]hI > I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit tosI > www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farming0K > industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder why ? > CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow....  C         Would you care to enlighten the _VMS_ users among us?  I'velH     just tried to access that site and all I get is a blank screen.  OK,F     so I follow Larry Kilgallen's lead on some things...I then enabledE     javascript and reloaded and all I get is a javascript error and adB     blank screen.  I didn't see anything to worry CPQ at all!  :-)           -Ken  =     P.S. NS 3.03 on OVMS/Alpha 7.2-1 w/DECwindows/Motif 1.2-5n -- sM  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edua:  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 17:41:24 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)i8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours+ Message-ID: <JzzjAcVPXpBl@eisner.decus.org>.   In article <aGVjfzcUhr08@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:G > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>, y6 >     	Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: > [...]bJ >> I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit toJ >> www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farmingL >> industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder why@ >> CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow... > E >         Would you care to enlighten the _VMS_ users among us?  I'veIJ >     just tried to access that site and all I get is a blank screen.  OK,H >     so I follow Larry Kilgallen's lead on some things...I then enabledG >     javascript and reloaded and all I get is a javascript error and a  >     blank screen.n  H and that blank screen is your penalty for straying from the Secure path.D For those who do so in the Microsoft direction, we color it blue :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:48:54 -0800.! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild RumoursD Message-ID: <OFB102EF7E.16774676-ON882569E4.007D44A3@foundation.com>  G It's a Voluntary Milking System, where cows walk in and get milked when  they feel like it.   Shane           D Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX:# 926-3515) on 01/30/2001 02:15:00 PM    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:,  9 Subject:  Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild RumoursF    D In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>,4      Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: [...] I > I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit to I > www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farmingrK > industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder whyM? > CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow...i  C         Would you care to enlighten the _VMS_ users among us?  I've H     just tried to access that site and all I get is a blank screen.  OK,F     so I follow Larry Kilgallen's lead on some things...I then enabledE     javascript and reloaded and all I get is a javascript error and a*B     blank screen.  I didn't see anything to worry CPQ at all!  :-)           -Ken  =     P.S. NS 3.03 on OVMS/Alpha 7.2-1 w/DECwindows/Motif 1.2-52 ---  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet:E Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edu*:  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515  M -----------------------------------------------------------------------------   B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:49:49 +0000-) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>08 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours, Message-ID: <3A77450D.99986B85@infopuls.com>   Terry C Shannon wrote: > ( > On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Alan Greig wrote: > > > I am neither impugning your credibility nor besmirching yourK > escutcheon. There have been a lot of postings in this newsgroup which are @ > based on incomplete information and unsupportable conclusions. > I > We all know that VMS marketing--at the levels above Rich Marcello--doth J > sucketh mightily. And VMS has been damned by faint praise for ages. That? > said, the OS actually experienced single-digit growth in 4FQ.i > K > Given the downturn in the Wintel market (I can't wait to see how Dell andtI > Gateway fare) and the fact that CPQ is finally stressing its enterprise,6 > bragging rights, why on earth would they "kill" VMS? > G > VMS contributes far more revenue, and very similar margins, than that/ > which is contributed by NSK. > 8 > A heck of a lot of WildFires go out the door with VMS. > 4 > CPQ has committed to providing COE support on VMS. > J > Pulling the plug now would not only be the height of stupidity, it would > be tantamount to suicide.  > H > The fact that customers continue to buy the OS indicates that CPQ (and( > VMS) are still credible in their eyes. > H > Many of the financial analysts who attended the conference last FridayK > subscribe to my newsletter, and we frequently correspond. I have received.I > zero inquiries from these folks, or from my large end-user or IT vendor / > subscribers, about the alleged elegy for VMS.  > L > Hence I believe an apparent act of omission has been blown way, way out of
 > proportion.   ? To restrict an OS (or software in general) to one niche doesn'tf? make *any* sense as long as there aren't any other reasons likeo= contracts with competitors around. As dublicating software is = much, much cheaper than the price for the software the ROI isi= better if you have more customers for the same SW because the ? price for developing is the same. Therefore it doesn't make anyt> sense to me if Compaq want to restrict VMS to a (small) niche,@ the military market. If Compaq put money in VMS it would be more- profitable if they sell it to more companies.   @ Another remark and question about the single digit growth of VMS@ in the fourth financial quarter: even if VMS did better than the: PeeCee market within Compaq we should know if the whole OS@ market expanded or shrinked. Important besides how well VMS does< within Compaq is the market share in OS area. If you look at? Apple who are in a very similar position wrt to their MacOS andf? their "proprietary" HW: they always publish detailed numbers ofa@ their market share and if grew or shrinked. Do you know anything9 about the position of VMS compared to its outside Compaq a2 competitors? Did the market for OS grow or shrink?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:17:44 -0500r% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>A8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours/ Message-ID: <t7eitsfbgg7pcc@news.supernews.com>l  . <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message> news:OFB102EF7E.16774676-ON882569E4.007D44A3@foundation.com... >oI > It's a Voluntary Milking System, where cows walk in and get milked when- > they feel like it. >,   Sounds like Las Vegas!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:45:21 GMTI= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)l8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours0 Message-ID: <009F6E7D.A54273F9@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <aGVjfzcUhr08@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:F >In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301422280.25261-100000@world.std.com>, 5 >    	Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:  >[...]J >> I am unaware of any Big Wins in the glue factory market, but a visit toJ >> www.delaval.com will shed light on the role of VMS in the dairy farmingL >> industry. Click on New Products and then VMS. And then you can wonder why@ >> CPQ's trademark lawyers haven't (dare I say it?) Had A Cow... >tD >        Would you care to enlighten the _VMS_ users among us?  I'veI >    just tried to access that site and all I get is a blank screen.  OK,lG >    so I follow Larry Kilgallen's lead on some things...I then enabledlF >    javascript and reloaded and all I get is a javascript error and aC >    blank screen.  I didn't see anything to worry CPQ at all!  :-)p >i
 >        -Kent >n> >    P.S. NS 3.03 on OVMS/Alpha 7.2-1 w/DECwindows/Motif 1.2-5 >-- N > Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edu; > SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924V; > Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515aO > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------hC > These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...q    ( This page is *intentionally* M$ biased.   D As for what it says, clue into one of my other posts in this thread.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM-            -O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:47:05 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours0 Message-ID: <009F6E7D.E2E25E94@SendSpamHere.ORG>  h In article <OFB102EF7E.16774676-ON882569E4.007D44A3@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: >iH >It's a Voluntary Milking System, where cows walk in and get milked when >they feel like it.  >  >Shane     Just like VMS customers...   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:21:43 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours, Message-ID: <3A7784C7.7E2B1F4D@infopuls.com>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > F > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101300122050.29821-100000@world.std.com>,9 >         Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:j > >>O > >> IMHO the best thing Compaq could do is announce a VMS Applications Portingd8 > >> Fund designed to attract more ISVs to the platform. > >>Q > >> [Damn IE didn't right-arrow the original - one of these days I'll figure outd
 > >> why.] > >>M > >> Er, didn't we hear something about ISV financial support 'way back when? K > >> Does your statement mean that it didn't happen (which is getting to besN > >> somewhat of a refrain), or are you proposing something to add to existing > >> support (whatever it is)? > >> > >oN > > Yep, I seem to recall such a statement a year or two back, but it paled inM > > comparison to the $100M fund for Tru64. Whatever, it would be nice to see-2 > > additional emphasis placed on ISV recruitment. > >0 > I >    But not something one is likely to see if Compaq's intent is to onlyoL > promote VMS in situations where they don't have a Unix or Windoze solutionN > they could sell instead. The lack of such a fund certainly provides evidenceG > that this is the situation ( as do most of their public statements ont  > VMS over the last few years ).  < This is really strange if it is true that the margins on VMS sells are that high.  ? Another strange observation is that from what is published fromc9 the conference in this NG it seems that Compaq is pushings> Micro$oft Windows solutions more than their own OSs. Does this: really make sense? Does Micro$oft really need a partner to attack any market segment?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:08:20 -0600a7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> 8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours- Message-ID: <3A778FB4.91C685A4@earthlink.net>s  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > j > In article <OFB102EF7E.16774676-ON882569E4.007D44A3@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: > >nJ > >It's a Voluntary Milking System, where cows walk in and get milked when > >they feel like it.t > >h > >Shane >  > Just like VMS customers...  ? Nah, we're more like sheep - we get fleeced, or shorn at least.   ' Hhmmm... That sorta rhymes, doesn't it?o   -- E David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.v   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:29:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u8 Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS and other Wild Rumours, Message-ID: <3A77A2C2.932CB444@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:K > Wow!  Not only is VMS a user-friendly system but it is also cow-friendly:w > & > <QUOTE from page at www.delaval.com> > J > VMS has numerous cow-friendly features found nowhere else on the market. > 
 > <END QUOTE>m    ( Sorry, but all I get when I go there is:          H                                DeLaval has been designed for a 800 x 600 screen resolutionSN                                and version 4+ browsers. If you need to upgrade your browser:                                you can use the link below.                                 8 http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/download/ie5all.htm     I I doubt very much that it it doesn't like Netscape on a MAC, that it willo accept Mosaic on VMS.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:58:27 GMTd= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)'- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off now?0 Message-ID: <009F6E4D.2F0DF7EA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <87puh553k3.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:- >young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) writes:  > G >>  The scheduler.  (process scheduler in VMS, thread scheduler in NT) iG >>  32 scheduling priorities, divided into the "real-time" (16-31) and aI >>  "variable" (0-15) priority ranges.  identical preemption at ready by .B >>  higher-priority threads; identical quantum and priority boost I >>  implementations; identical CPU starvation avoidance mechanism to get cF >>  out of priority inversion situations; a null thread for each CPU;  >>  etc., etc.   >> P: >>  Memory management.  0-7FFFFFFF is per-process, mostly G >>  user-mode-accessible only; 80000000-FFFFFFFF is systemwide, mostly tG >>  kernel-accessible only.  Functionally identical implementations of n >>  paging vs. swapping.   >> RF >>  I/O.  I could write a book (in fact, I am), but briefly, IRPs are I >>  IRPs, UCBs are "device objects", CRBs are "controller objects", ADPs  A >>  are "adapter objects", FDT routines are "dispatch routines", iK >>  EXE$QIODRVPKT is IoStartPacket, StartIO routines are StartIO routines,  G >>  fork routines are DPC routines, ASTs are APCs... etc., etc., etc., , >>  etc., etc.   >> gJ >>  Interrupt handling.  32 levels of interrupts (some simulated but this I >>  is nevertheless the way the code is written).  IPLs on VMS, IRQLs on  K >>  NT.  In order:  Passive level, APC (AST) Level, Dispatch (fork) level,  F >>  then the IO hardware interrupts, then some "hardware maintenance" I >>  functions like the hardware timer, IPI, power fail notification, and n( >>  HIGH_LEVEL to block all interrupts.  >fB >And the "spelling error for spelling error..." compatability with >MICA. >hC >BTW, I have read the 3.x listing, and could find no mention of DC.v  I 3.x listing of what??? VMS?  If so, look at DCL (David Cutler's Language)w  : >Anyone point to code he did do? When did he start on ELN?   DCL.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.N   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:13:00 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> - Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off now D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301407260.25261-100000@world.std.com>    On 30 Jan 2001, Rob Young wrote:  [ > In article <3A76E1A2.9FF836EB@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:  > >  > >  > > Wayne Holland wrote: > > J > >> It may be possible that Compaq is giving up VMS on a silver plater to > >> Microsoft.  > > 2 > > but they already have it, they have Cutler :-) > > J > > They'd have to admit all the "well NT is VMS anyway because of Culter" > > nonsense& > > was in fact what I just called it. > >  > < > 	Yes ... we know Cutler was away when Clustering was being1 > 	developed, etc.  However, NT is more than just-> > 	a rumor "being a lot like VMS" as Jamie Hanrahan details as( > 	he dropped out here a few years back. > 	 > 				Rob  >    <Jamie's stuff deleted>5  H Very true, and the fact has been confirmed by a slew of past and presentH DECpaqians. If one were to look at the MICA and NT souce code, one would; see a distinct family resemblence. As in "fraternal twins."f  G T'was this similarity that led to the DEC/u$oft Alliance for EnterpriseAI Computing. Alas, the DEC person who negotiated the terms of said Alliance0H accepted the first offer u$oft threw over the transom. Had the deal been? negotiated appropriately, things might be very different today.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:20:53 GMTM- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>e- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowrD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301420220.25261-100000@world.std.com>  " On 30 Jan 2001, Bob Koehler wrote:  v > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301038400.20131-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >  > > the addition ofeL > > Solaris-like interfaces to OpenVMS will render it easier to port apps toJ > > OpenVMS. Since apps availability is the Achille's Heel of OpenVMS, COE > > support is a good thing. a > F > Oracle using Solaris as a prime development platform and Sun portingB > StarOffice to Solaris come to mind, as well as Solaris being the/ > platform for development of new JDK releases.@ > I > A great many vendors develop first on Sun, the port to HP, etc.  If thegA > port to VMS can be done as cheaply as the port to HP it becomestI > profitable again to sell the big apps to the small market.  This is keyy  > to getting the market to grow.   Well stated, Bob!f   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:53:18 -05002- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>,- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowr, Message-ID: <3A771BAC.A27A6294@videotron.ca>   Terry C Shannon wrote:J > COE support will be required for US Department of Defense contracts, and, > perhaps for future NATO contracts as well.   Terry:J to the general customers, such promises are worthless because we have seenF similar commitments in the past which did not result in Digital/CompaqK changing their attitude. All this says is that Compaq is willing to prolongtI the pain for another 20 years and that they don't have the guts to kill an product they don't want.  M What we need to see if Compaq embracing VMS as one of its strategic products,rL and this means not having to constantly fight to have VMS mentioned at least< once everytime Capellas opens his mount in front of cameras.  L What we want is for Compaq to make enough noises about VMS to make it a muchI more palatable platform for ISVs to invest in. Why would an ISV decide toiN spend the bucks to port to VMS when Compaq isn't even capable of talking aboutR that products during press conferences (which are free advertising opportunities).  J The commitment part of DII-COE tells me that Compaq is willing to keep theL life-support aparatus on the comatosed VMS  plugged in for 20 years. It doesL not mean that Compaq is willing to re-awaken VMS and turn it into an athlete4 competing against the other guys in the IT olympics.  N Generally, when you have a star athlete that is hurt, the team will spend whatL is necessary to get thatathlete back in shape and productive again ASAP, andJ they will make sure that the public knows that the athlete will return andF that his injuries were not terminal. Compaq needs to do that with VMS.  J > Solaris-like interfaces to OpenVMS will render it easier to port apps toH > OpenVMS. Since apps availability is the Achille's Heel of OpenVMS, COE > support is a good thing.    J I agree that this is the more important part of DII-COE and that this is aG positive portion. However, in the canadian version of Inform, the token M article about VMS mentioned only the commitment to the defence contractor, soaH the value of the ease of porting is lost if you keep it hidden and don't& shoult it loud enough to attract ISVs.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2001 03:45:07 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off now - Message-ID: <87zog84yf0.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  / Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:   I > T'was this similarity that led to the DEC/u$oft Alliance for Enterprise K > Computing. Alas, the DEC person who negotiated the terms of said AllianceeJ > accepted the first offer u$oft threw over the transom. Had the deal beenA > negotiated appropriately, things might be very different today.   K Was this the thorn by any other name that told the DOJ case what wonderfullo people M$ where to deal with?v  B Considering the 3X payment in US law for criminal copyright breachH it is a wonder that M$ even exists any more... If they pushed, DEC would be the largest co in the world.o   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.c@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 15:10:53 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowt+ Message-ID: <3IqqMQcdAXCA@eisner.decus.org>r  \ In article <3A771BAC.A27A6294@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Terry C Shannon wrote:K >> COE support will be required for US Department of Defense contracts, ande- >> perhaps for future NATO contracts as well.i >  > Terry:L > to the general customers, such promises are worthless because we have seenH > similar commitments in the past which did not result in Digital/CompaqM > changing their attitude. All this says is that Compaq is willing to prolongpK > the pain for another 20 years and that they don't have the guts to kill aa > product they don't want. >   B 	No.  This is a legit argument.  Not only that , you make 20 yearsB 	seem like a trivial matter.  Shoot, most of the OSes that will be> 	COE certified aren't even 20 years old.  So while you view itD 	as "pain for another 20 years", an alternate view is "committment."? 	Some people in marriage are in pain (too bad) , others view itr 	less auspiciously.F  @ 	Likewise, when the nasty "Alpha is dead" threads get going, oneA 	of the strongest arguments to squelch such nonesense is to pointS= 	to Tandem coming over to Alpha >STARTING< with EV7.  Maybe aeE 	cynical viewpoint is: "the beginning of NSK pain."  Cynicism reigns   	supreme with that viewpoint.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:42:54 GMT'= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-).- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowz0 Message-ID: <009F6E64.2810ECBA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <87zog84yf0.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:0 >Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >	J >> T'was this similarity that led to the DEC/u$oft Alliance for EnterpriseL >> Computing. Alas, the DEC person who negotiated the terms of said AllianceK >> accepted the first offer u$oft threw over the transom. Had the deal been B >> negotiated appropriately, things might be very different today. >aL >Was this the thorn by any other name that told the DOJ case what wonderfull >people M$ where to deal with? >uC >Considering the 3X payment in US law for criminal copyright breachkI >it is a wonder that M$ even exists any more... If they pushed, DEC wouldt  >be the largest co in the world.  J DEC never persued a copyright infringement -- and a rather blatant severalH thousand lines verbatim replete with comments verbatim too -- that was aI simple open and shut case with small fishing trawler, so why should/would.6 DEC have gone after the king of the finshing industry?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.-   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2001 15:45:47 PSTT From: Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515)- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nows3 Message-ID: <J6pzOW3CKVYx@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>c  E In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301038400.20131-100000@world.std.com>,  3     Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:r  ) > On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Osmo Kujala wrote:- > . >> Eric Ebinger <eebinger@telocity.com> wrote: >> y6 >> > If Compaq doesn't want to grow the VMS market why >> > the COE effort? >> oL >> Well, to me that worked like extra-super-hyper-mega-giga "flashing ball".I >> I laughed to the flashing ball campaign, but I've been accepting otheraH >> kind of flashing balls: posix, affinity,... and now COE? Am I stupid? >> oJ > COE support will be required for US Department of Defense contracts, andJ > perhaps for future NATO contracts as well. Adding COE support to OpenVMSL > costs a hell of a lot more than those flashing balls. And it may well do aB > lot more than the aforementioned pulsating orbs: the addition ofJ > Solaris-like interfaces to OpenVMS will render it easier to port apps toH > OpenVMS. Since apps availability is the Achille's Heel of OpenVMS, COE > support is a good thing. 8  H         I keep having a nagging  thought  in  the  back  of my mind thatH     maybe,  just maybe, they're holding off on pushing VMS until COE-DIIH     is in place along with a bunch of newly ported applications.  _Then_H     they can go full steam into the market place with a boatload of appsH     that the PHM's want (or "need").  Yeah, I know I'm dreaming, but  it)     seems to be a recurrent dream...  :-)g            -Ken --  M  Kenneth H. Fairfield            |  Internet: Fairfield@SLC.Slac.Stanford.Edun:  SLAC, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, MS 46  |  Voice:    650-926-2924:  Menlo Park, CA  94025           |  FAX:      650-926-3515N  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------B  These opinions are mine, not SLAC's, Stanford's, nor the DOE's...   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:49:36 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowe0 Message-ID: <009F6E7E.3D087CF7@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <J6pzOW3CKVYx@mccdev.slac.stanford.edu>, Fairfield@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Ken Fairfield; SLAC: 650-926-2924; FAX: 926-3515) writes:F >In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301038400.20131-100000@world.std.com>, 4 >    Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >s* >> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Osmo Kujala wrote: >>  / >>> Eric Ebinger <eebinger@telocity.com> wrote:b >>> 7 >>> > If Compaq doesn't want to grow the VMS market whyi >>> > the COE effort?  >>> M >>> Well, to me that worked like extra-super-hyper-mega-giga "flashing ball".eJ >>> I laughed to the flashing ball campaign, but I've been accepting otherI >>> kind of flashing balls: posix, affinity,... and now COE? Am I stupid?2 >>> K >> COE support will be required for US Department of Defense contracts, and'K >> perhaps for future NATO contracts as well. Adding COE support to OpenVMShM >> costs a hell of a lot more than those flashing balls. And it may well do aFC >> lot more than the aforementioned pulsating orbs: the addition ofnK >> Solaris-like interfaces to OpenVMS will render it easier to port apps toaI >> OpenVMS. Since apps availability is the Achille's Heel of OpenVMS, COE  >> support is a good thing.  >rI >        I keep having a nagging  thought  in  the  back  of my mind thathI >    maybe,  just maybe, they're holding off on pushing VMS until COE-DIIwI >    is in place along with a bunch of newly ported applications.  _Then_ I >    they can go full steam into the market place with a boatload of apps I >    that the PHM's want (or "need").  Yeah, I know I'm dreaming, but  it * >    seems to be a recurrent dream...  :-)  7 It seems you're having some very Freudian slumbers Ken.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             9O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:28:35 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowt, Message-ID: <3A778663.D8168F31@infopuls.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > Wayne Holland wrote: > I > > It may be possible that Compaq is giving up VMS on a silver plater to  > > Microsoft. > 0 > but they already have it, they have Cutler :-) > H > They'd have to admit all the "well NT is VMS anyway because of Culter"
 > nonsense$ > was in fact what I just called it. >  > --8 > Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project2 > MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.C > Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukl > C > I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those oft > MedAS or the BBC.M  > I heard that Dave Cutler left Micro$oft long ago. Does anybody where he's currently working?y< And, yes, Micro$oft Windows/NT is a little bit of Cutler and@ much of Micro$oft. The emphasis of the VMS and WNT affinity came from DEC, not from Micro$oft.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 04:12:52 +0000.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>b- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowe, Message-ID: <3A7790C4.B194F174@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Terry C Shannon wrote:L > > COE support will be required for US Department of Defense contracts, and. > > perhaps for future NATO contracts as well. >  > Terry:L > to the general customers, such promises are worthless because we have seenH > similar commitments in the past which did not result in Digital/CompaqM > changing their attitude. All this says is that Compaq is willing to prolongFK > the pain for another 20 years and that they don't have the guts to kill aF > product they don't want. > O > What we need to see if Compaq embracing VMS as one of its strategic products,.N > and this means not having to constantly fight to have VMS mentioned at least> > once everytime Capellas opens his mount in front of cameras. > N > What we want is for Compaq to make enough noises about VMS to make it a muchK > more palatable platform for ISVs to invest in. Why would an ISV decide toiP > spend the bucks to port to VMS when Compaq isn't even capable of talking aboutT > that products during press conferences (which are free advertising opportunities). > L > The commitment part of DII-COE tells me that Compaq is willing to keep theN > life-support aparatus on the comatosed VMS  plugged in for 20 years. It doesN > not mean that Compaq is willing to re-awaken VMS and turn it into an athlete6 > competing against the other guys in the IT olympics. > P > Generally, when you have a star athlete that is hurt, the team will spend whatN > is necessary to get thatathlete back in shape and productive again ASAP, andL > they will make sure that the public knows that the athlete will return andH > that his injuries were not terminal. Compaq needs to do that with VMS. > L > > Solaris-like interfaces to OpenVMS will render it easier to port apps toJ > > OpenVMS. Since apps availability is the Achille's Heel of OpenVMS, COE > > support is a good thing. > L > I agree that this is the more important part of DII-COE and that this is aI > positive portion. However, in the canadian version of Inform, the tokenmO > article about VMS mentioned only the commitment to the defence contractor, so0J > the value of the ease of porting is lost if you keep it hidden and don't( > shoult it loud enough to attract ISVs.  5 Two questions about these Solaris like API extension: = 1.Will these calls be first class citizens or will they be on 9 top of the alreay existing code by internally calling thec original VMS style routines?@ 2.Will this ruin on the mid term the structure and the design of	 VMS' API?"   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 23:38:00 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowb+ Message-ID: <m9iX0WNlpEkX@eisner.decus.org>   X In article <3A778663.D8168F31@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:   > @ > I heard that Dave Cutler left Micro$oft long ago. Does anybody > where he's currently working?e> > And, yes, Micro$oft Windows/NT is a little bit of Cutler andB > much of Micro$oft. The emphasis of the VMS and WNT affinity came > from DEC, not from Micro$oft.r  1 	Yes... that last acid trip he was on did him in.   ? 	He sold all his belongings (would have typed "possessions" but > 	three times at it made me give up) and moved to Great Britain= 	and has begun a dialog with Andrew Harrison to determine thed? 	true meaning of Enterprise Architecture.  He purchased a fully-D 	refurbed London cab circa 1954 and lives in the back seat.  In his @ 	spare time he works on his art.  As you can see, it is heavily < 	influenced by flashbacks interlaced heavily with legacy OS 2 	underpinnings.  The art is found on his homepage:  ; http://www.artbank.ltd.uk/Agency/Artists/Cutler/Cutler1.htm0  ; 	In a further twist, he insists offers for his art can onlyo= 	be delivered by carrier pigeon, North Atlantic route ONLY!!!e   				RobS   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Jan 2001 05:29:56 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowS, Message-ID: <9587sk$srq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  V In article <955ril$tvb$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>, Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi> writes:, >Eric Ebinger <eebinger@telocity.com> wrote: >a4 >> If Compaq doesn't want to grow the VMS market why >> the COE effort? > J >Well, to me that worked like extra-super-hyper-mega-giga "flashing ball".G >I laughed to the flashing ball campaign, but I've been accepting othereF >kind of flashing balls: posix, affinity,... and now COE? Am I stupid?  E Posix was often pretty useful, and it did make VMS "Open" even thoughoE when it went away the OS did not revert to being VMS again.  AffinitygG was worthless from the get go, with the only even marginally useful bituJ being Wind/U (and we need say no more about that debacle.)  I expect that J COE will be useful to people who use OpenVMS systems for a living but alsoH that it is completely irrelevant to the future of the OS, which depends J upon nontechnical factors more than it does upon technical ones.  At leastI the COE has nothing whatsoever to do with Microsoft, so at least it isn'tr intrinsically toxic.     David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu.? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech aJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2001 00:35:32 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)- Subject: Re: It's the end for VMS get off nowo+ Message-ID: <lSWDFkV58VW0@eisner.decus.org>h  X In article <m9iX0WNlpEkX@eisner.decus.org>, young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) writes:Z > In article <3A778663.D8168F31@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: >  >> oA >> I heard that Dave Cutler left Micro$oft long ago. Does anybodyt  >> where he's currently working?? >> And, yes, Micro$oft Windows/NT is a little bit of Cutler andaC >> much of Micro$oft. The emphasis of the VMS and WNT affinity came   >> from DEC, not from Micro$oft. > 3 > 	Yes... that last acid trip he was on did him in.i > A > 	He sold all his belongings (would have typed "possessions" butr@ > 	three times at it made me give up) and moved to Great Britain? > 	and has begun a dialog with Andrew Harrison to determine theSA > 	true meaning of Enterprise Architecture.  He purchased a fullypF > 	refurbed London cab circa 1954 and lives in the back seat.  In his B > 	spare time he works on his art.  As you can see, it is heavily > > 	influenced by flashbacks interlaced heavily with legacy OS 4 > 	underpinnings.  The art is found on his homepage: > = > http://www.artbank.ltd.uk/Agency/Artists/Cutler/Cutler1.htmn >   : 	Oh...  note the subtle detail in that one painting.  That8 	Blue Screen is no accident.  The tones... the beckoning$ 	overtures... genius... pure Genius.  = > 	In a further twist, he insists offers for his art can only4? > 	be delivered by carrier pigeon, North Atlantic route ONLY!!!c > 	 > 				Rob  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:39:35 +0800o# From: Frederick <fyeung@brokat.com>o Subject: JDBC connectivity* Message-ID: <3A776CD7.A42EEE6B@brokat.com>  D Any ideas how to connect an Oracle7 DB which runs on Open VMS721 viaD JDBC from a remote NT4 client?  Any software installation require to install on NT and the Open VMS?w Any input is appreciate. :>o  	 Frederick    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2001 21:03:30 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - Subject: Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 brokene, Message-ID: <957a72$2e5e$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3A724D45.92B23127@infopuls.com>,,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  |> >  L |> > A different view is not necessarily a bad design nor of poorer quality. |> > Just different. |> -! |> We need to know your criteria!5  2 Afraid I don't know what this is supposed to mean.   |> IL |> > No, I find much of it written and layed out n a confusing manner. MaybeJ |> > someone forgot that the person who needs the docs the most is the oneN |> > who isn't necessarily familiar with the in house jargon.  Especially whenN |> > it differs from how others in the industry say things.  But then, VMS has+ |> > nothing on Windows in this department.c |> e: |> If things *are* different they can't be called with theC |> widespread terms. And if you do this kind of system's management + |> you better got familiar with the jargon.t  > No, actually it's easier to just tell my boss to dump all that? obsolete VMS stuff.  But I thought it was the consensus of thiswA group that that was a bad thing and thet getting as much exposurekF to the academic world as possible was a good thing.  "Getting familiar@ with the jargon" may be a necessity, but getting servers runningC for the use of students and faculty is what I'm paid to do.  And ifeA making those servers VMS involves too much of my time and effort,iA well, you can guess where they will end out in the pecking order.d> My boss knows Unix and my boss, like it or not, has to support> the Windows environment.  If setting up and using VMS involves; enough effort to take me away from those tasks, VMS looses.i   |> fE |> > Who said it had to be modified a lot??  I usually do it once peroA |> > machine.  If all the machines I had were exactly the same in2D |> > configuration I would need to do it once.  VMS is no different.E |> > Or don't you agree that the amount of memory and the size of the6E |> > disks can require different settings for things like pagefiles??. |>  A |> But amount of memory and size of page- and swapfiles shouldn'thC |> be compiled in anyway. And what about adjustments to the averageoC |> usage of the system? Is there anything like the VMS optimisationeC |> cycle of running the system and then running AUTOGEN? Is there a C |> usage profile collecting mechanism? Will you re-build the kernel  |> after each change of usage?  @ I see you are about as familiar with Unix config and tuning as I? am of VMS.  Let it suffice to say that I can tune a Unix system?+ a lot easier than I can tune a VMS system. o   |> n( |> > |> Does Solaris run Linux binaries? |> > nK |> > Take that up with Andrew.  There is no reason why it can't except thatlM |> > Sun doesn't want it to.  All the necessary libraries for Linux are free.l |> u@ |> Come on, this wasn't the question! Is Solaris able to executeC |> Linux binaries? To be able to do that the loader must understandl  |> all the Linux binary formats.  @ There is no technical reason why Solaris can't do what Linux andA all the various flavors of BSD do in this respect.  The fact thatiB it doesn't is apparently a decision made by Sun.  I can't tell you@ why they don't, nor can I fix it.  But then, I won't run Solaris either.P   |> m@ |> Good point. But I don't think this does any good in improvingA |> the credibility of people responsible for and developing UNIX.s< |> We shouldn't confuse the situation at SUN and HP with the< |> current stupid behaviour of Compaq wrt to VMS. Compaq hasA |> alternatives whereas SUN and HP only had their respective OSs.0C |> And I heard that HP/UX even offers unique realtime qualities. SoyC |> there is at least a reason for doing proprietary extensions. Butt@ |> what I don't understand and count as point against the way ofB |> UNIX people's thinking is that the developers at the respectiveB |> companies deliberately made their OSs worse. How can we explain |> that?  E Why does any company do anything in a proprietary manner??  Software,lE Hardware, whatever.  They think they can bring something to the table C that is valuable enough to win potential customers over.  And then, C they have to hold them.  IBM has been doing this for years.  I can  A remember some dandy horror stories from my contracting days.  IBM A dropping support for machines that were still under lease forcingaB the current users either by themselves out of the lease at a great? expense or upgrade, thus locking themselves into IBM yet again.n? Why do people do it??  Obviously because they see value in this > strategy.  The greatest innovations in Unix technology are not> coming from these copanies, but from the free BSD's that who's? communities are made up of very much of the same people who dido? this work at Berkeley and people like them.  I see none of thisw= coming from the former SYSV side of the house.  Again, it all-  comes down to vision and midset.   |> aV |> > |> Hmm.  What's the oldest working binary on your favorite system?  Early 1980's? |> > 4H |> > I'll have to concede that one to you.  Having changed from Sparc toL |> > x86 I have no old binaries for the architecture I am currently running. |> -A |> We shouldn't stretch this point as it is not clear that beeinghB |> able to execute old binaries is that a good thing. Basically itB |> prevents the OS to evolve. If you look at the Windoze API after? |> the evolution from 16 to 32 bit you see what the approach ofs? |> backward compatibility and introduction of new features willW |> create: a complete mess.d  < I agree, and when you take into account that it was the UnixC mindset (and not Ada as many seem to think) that actually developed2@ the concept of software re-usability by releasing a lot of stuffA in source form (comp.sources.unix as a newsgroup goes back to the>= early 80's).  This, of course, makes it unnecessary to worry  B about binary compatability accross versions of the OS.  You simply recompile at strategic times.    |> rB |> The problem with the UNIX kernel re-build is that if you change> |> some data structures which are used by programs as I had toC |> because the structure to hold a host name was too short you willp@ |> even make a current binary which is linked against the kernelB |> unexecutable. In fact it will execute as with all UNIX variants? |> I know of there is no mechanism to detect that the size of ahA |> running kernel structure is not the size of the structure whene' |> the program was compiled and linked.i  D Surely your saying that a static VMS binary can detect these changesA and fix them on the fly??  Of course you can't arbitrarily changeHA kernel structures without considering the ripple effect this willkB have into other applications.  Why do you think people are talkingA now about the "2038 bug".  Everyone realizes the necessary changeI> will affect a lot more than just the kernel.  The same kind ofC kernel dependencies were found in a lot of the Y2K problems as wellh@ and not in Unix systems.  The only way this can be avoided is toC never allow access to anything in the kernel.  Is this true of VMS?   I |> > Well, thank you for that.  It's true, I don't come here to bash VMS.nF |> > I have to maintain VMS servers just like I maintain Unix servers.E |> > Both have their strengths and their weaknesses.  But the biggesteD |> > difference is in worldview.  Different does not imply better or |> > worse, just different.0 |> r@ |> Good answers but there is still one open point. Do VMS peopleB |> really slam UNIX more than UNIX people slam VMS or other OSs? I  D Gee, I thought most Unix people were way too busy slamming the otherD Unixes to even think about VMS.  But, to be honest, I can't rememberB the last time I saw VMS mentioned in any of the BSD groups I read.< I don't read Linux groups so I can't say what goes on there.  C |> doubt that. If you read the bullshit which is supplied with each @ |> Linux distribution called "VMS to Linux HOWTO" then you might
 |> re-think. l  @ Maybe so, but Linux did not come out of the same group (mindset)? as Unix.  Which probably explains a lot about some of the Linuxv> strangeness.  And, no, I have never read or even heard of that@ particular HowTo, but needing a good laugh today, I think I will go look for it.r  B |>           And it's not only important how many people spend how@ |> many of their words for slaming (which percentage) it is alsoB |> important how strong they slam. If you read the bullshit in the; |> "VMS to Linux HOWTO" you don't need much more slaming to<C |> outweigh all slaming what has and will be done against UNIX from ; |> VMS people. Moreover the normal UNIX slamer doesn't knowe> |> anything about VMS. The normal VMS slamer knows a lot about	 |> UNIX. e  A Here, I would have to disagree with you.  I have seen some prettyaB strange claims regarding Unix right here int his group and watchedA as others just took it all in with a nod of the head.  While I amp@ sure that many here have Unix experience, I don't think it is as@ much as you might think and I am certain it is more with the "I > know what is best for your users" kind like Ultrix or OSF than with anything like the BSD's..  C |>        Of course you are not a normal UNIX against VMS slamer ife) |> you are a slamer at all which I doubt.   ? I don't see a reason to slam any OS.  I don;t like Solaris, bute? I am sure there is someone out there for whom it is the answer t> to a particular problem.  As I said before, the whole world is3 not a nail, so we need more tools than just hammer.y  
 All the best.i   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 04:09:43 GMT 0 From: Michael Austin <austinms@worldnet.att.net>- Subject: Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken 0 Message-ID: <3A778FF0.A4238877@worldnet.att.net>  Z I have not been following this thread, but would like to throw in a comment or two.   I doW both Unix and VMS and am quite good at both.  I have supported VMS and I have supportedhV various flavors of Unix. Your choice of OS will depend upon your application.  It alsoW will depend upon how much work  you are willing to put into keeping the systems runninge2 and how many sys-admins you are willing to hire...  S I would also say that anyone who says that VMS is "obsolete" has no clue which came X first.  VMS is actually more current that Unix.  Unix was developed in the late 60's andU early 70's and VMS didn't come along for another few years.  The "cluster" technologyeY everyone is trying to get to work correctly, was developed by DEC and has been in VMS foriV many years.  Clusters are not new, just new to Unix.  And they still haven't gotten itY right.  New VMS licenses are up significantly, Why?  Because the need for 24x7x365 highlyiX available, highly reliable systems are a necessity for todays e-commerce and Unix cannotZ compete in that space.   That is why more than 50% of the world's stock market systems are5 VMS. They just work.  VMS is anything but "obsolete".    Michael Austin DBA Consultant( been there, done that, still prefer VMS.   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  . > In article <3A724D45.92B23127@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:b > |> >N > |> > A different view is not necessarily a bad design nor of poorer quality. > |> > Just different. > |># > |> We need to know your criteria!  >d4 > Afraid I don't know what this is supposed to mean. >. > |>N > |> > No, I find much of it written and layed out n a confusing manner. MaybeL > |> > someone forgot that the person who needs the docs the most is the oneP > |> > who isn't necessarily familiar with the in house jargon.  Especially whenP > |> > it differs from how others in the industry say things.  But then, VMS has- > |> > nothing on Windows in this department.H > |>< > |> If things *are* different they can't be called with theE > |> widespread terms. And if you do this kind of system's managemente- > |> you better got familiar with the jargon.e >c@ > No, actually it's easier to just tell my boss to dump all thatA > obsolete VMS stuff.  But I thought it was the consensus of thislC > group that that was a bad thing and thet getting as much exposurelH > to the academic world as possible was a good thing.  "Getting familiarB > with the jargon" may be a necessity, but getting servers runningE > for the use of students and faculty is what I'm paid to do.  And ifIC > making those servers VMS involves too much of my time and effort,tC > well, you can guess where they will end out in the pecking order.<@ > My boss knows Unix and my boss, like it or not, has to support@ > the Windows environment.  If setting up and using VMS involves= > enough effort to take me away from those tasks, VMS looses.u >- > |>G > |> > Who said it had to be modified a lot??  I usually do it once per C > |> > machine.  If all the machines I had were exactly the same in.F > |> > configuration I would need to do it once.  VMS is no different.G > |> > Or don't you agree that the amount of memory and the size of theoG > |> > disks can require different settings for things like pagefiles??y > |>C > |> But amount of memory and size of page- and swapfiles shouldn'thE > |> be compiled in anyway. And what about adjustments to the averageVE > |> usage of the system? Is there anything like the VMS optimisationhE > |> cycle of running the system and then running AUTOGEN? Is there a E > |> usage profile collecting mechanism? Will you re-build the kernelt  > |> after each change of usage? >sB > I see you are about as familiar with Unix config and tuning as IA > am of VMS.  Let it suffice to say that I can tune a Unix systeml, > a lot easier than I can tune a VMS system. >* > |>* > |> > |> Does Solaris run Linux binaries? > |> >M > |> > Take that up with Andrew.  There is no reason why it can't except that*O > |> > Sun doesn't want it to.  All the necessary libraries for Linux are free.  > |>B > |> Come on, this wasn't the question! Is Solaris able to executeE > |> Linux binaries? To be able to do that the loader must understandF" > |> all the Linux binary formats. >eB > There is no technical reason why Solaris can't do what Linux andC > all the various flavors of BSD do in this respect.  The fact thatrD > it doesn't is apparently a decision made by Sun.  I can't tell youB > why they don't, nor can I fix it.  But then, I won't run Solaris	 > either.A >  > |>B > |> Good point. But I don't think this does any good in improvingC > |> the credibility of people responsible for and developing UNIX.t> > |> We shouldn't confuse the situation at SUN and HP with the> > |> current stupid behaviour of Compaq wrt to VMS. Compaq hasC > |> alternatives whereas SUN and HP only had their respective OSs.oE > |> And I heard that HP/UX even offers unique realtime qualities. SomE > |> there is at least a reason for doing proprietary extensions. ButuB > |> what I don't understand and count as point against the way ofD > |> UNIX people's thinking is that the developers at the respectiveD > |> companies deliberately made their OSs worse. How can we explain
 > |> that? >nG > Why does any company do anything in a proprietary manner??  Software,gG > Hardware, whatever.  They think they can bring something to the table E > that is valuable enough to win potential customers over.  And then,eD > they have to hold them.  IBM has been doing this for years.  I canC > remember some dandy horror stories from my contracting days.  IBMiC > dropping support for machines that were still under lease forcing-D > the current users either by themselves out of the lease at a greatA > expense or upgrade, thus locking themselves into IBM yet again.sA > Why do people do it??  Obviously because they see value in thisa@ > strategy.  The greatest innovations in Unix technology are not@ > coming from these copanies, but from the free BSD's that who'sA > communities are made up of very much of the same people who did-A > this work at Berkeley and people like them.  I see none of thisi? > coming from the former SYSV side of the house.  Again, it allr" > comes down to vision and midset. >9 > |>X > |> > |> Hmm.  What's the oldest working binary on your favorite system?  Early 1980's? > |> >J > |> > I'll have to concede that one to you.  Having changed from Sparc toN > |> > x86 I have no old binaries for the architecture I am currently running. > |>C > |> We shouldn't stretch this point as it is not clear that beeing D > |> able to execute old binaries is that a good thing. Basically itD > |> prevents the OS to evolve. If you look at the Windoze API afterA > |> the evolution from 16 to 32 bit you see what the approach ofiA > |> backward compatibility and introduction of new features willf > |> create: a complete mess.s > > > I agree, and when you take into account that it was the UnixE > mindset (and not Ada as many seem to think) that actually developediB > the concept of software re-usability by releasing a lot of stuffC > in source form (comp.sources.unix as a newsgroup goes back to they> > early 80's).  This, of course, makes it unnecessary to worryD > about binary compatability accross versions of the OS.  You simply > recompile at strategic times.a >u > |>D > |> The problem with the UNIX kernel re-build is that if you change@ > |> some data structures which are used by programs as I had toE > |> because the structure to hold a host name was too short you willAB > |> even make a current binary which is linked against the kernelD > |> unexecutable. In fact it will execute as with all UNIX variantsA > |> I know of there is no mechanism to detect that the size of atC > |> running kernel structure is not the size of the structure whenu) > |> the program was compiled and linked.  > F > Surely your saying that a static VMS binary can detect these changesC > and fix them on the fly??  Of course you can't arbitrarily changelC > kernel structures without considering the ripple effect this willsD > have into other applications.  Why do you think people are talkingC > now about the "2038 bug".  Everyone realizes the necessary changes@ > will affect a lot more than just the kernel.  The same kind ofE > kernel dependencies were found in a lot of the Y2K problems as welljB > and not in Unix systems.  The only way this can be avoided is toE > never allow access to anything in the kernel.  Is this true of VMS?n > K > |> > Well, thank you for that.  It's true, I don't come here to bash VMS.dH > |> > I have to maintain VMS servers just like I maintain Unix servers.G > |> > Both have their strengths and their weaknesses.  But the biggest F > |> > difference is in worldview.  Different does not imply better or > |> > worse, just different.r > |>B > |> Good answers but there is still one open point. Do VMS peopleD > |> really slam UNIX more than UNIX people slam VMS or other OSs? I > F > Gee, I thought most Unix people were way too busy slamming the otherF > Unixes to even think about VMS.  But, to be honest, I can't rememberD > the last time I saw VMS mentioned in any of the BSD groups I read.> > I don't read Linux groups so I can't say what goes on there. >aE > |> doubt that. If you read the bullshit which is supplied with each B > |> Linux distribution called "VMS to Linux HOWTO" then you might > |> re-think. > B > Maybe so, but Linux did not come out of the same group (mindset)A > as Unix.  Which probably explains a lot about some of the Linuxe@ > strangeness.  And, no, I have never read or even heard of thatB > particular HowTo, but needing a good laugh today, I think I will > go look for it.f >mD > |>           And it's not only important how many people spend howB > |> many of their words for slaming (which percentage) it is alsoD > |> important how strong they slam. If you read the bullshit in the= > |> "VMS to Linux HOWTO" you don't need much more slaming totE > |> outweigh all slaming what has and will be done against UNIX frome= > |> VMS people. Moreover the normal UNIX slamer doesn't knowO@ > |> anything about VMS. The normal VMS slamer knows a lot about
 > |> UNIX. >rC > Here, I would have to disagree with you.  I have seen some prettycD > strange claims regarding Unix right here int his group and watchedC > as others just took it all in with a nod of the head.  While I ameB > sure that many here have Unix experience, I don't think it is asA > much as you might think and I am certain it is more with the "It@ > know what is best for your users" kind like Ultrix or OSF than > with anything like the BSD's.t >xE > |>        Of course you are not a normal UNIX against VMS slamer ifp+ > |> you are a slamer at all which I doubt.u >nA > I don't see a reason to slam any OS.  I don;t like Solaris, butn@ > I am sure there is someone out there for whom it is the answer@ > to a particular problem.  As I said before, the whole world is5 > not a nail, so we need more tools than just hammer.n >f > All the best.o >h > bill >S > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 05:03:44 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> - Subject: Re: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 brokene, Message-ID: <3A779CB0.4DECF9E4@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3A724D45.92B23127@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:t > |> >N > |> > A different view is not necessarily a bad design nor of poorer quality. > |> > Just different. > |># > |> We need to know your criteria!n > 4 > Afraid I don't know what this is supposed to mean.  7 To decide if a different view which implies a differentu9 judgement is based on real insight and can be regarded asa? valuable we need to know which your criteria are to measure theo@ things you are looking at. In this context we need your criteria! for good design and good quality.t   >  > |>N > |> > No, I find much of it written and layed out n a confusing manner. MaybeL > |> > someone forgot that the person who needs the docs the most is the oneP > |> > who isn't necessarily familiar with the in house jargon.  Especially whenP > |> > it differs from how others in the industry say things.  But then, VMS has- > |> > nothing on Windows in this department.a > |>< > |> If things *are* different they can't be called with theE > |> widespread terms. And if you do this kind of system's managementk- > |> you better got familiar with the jargon.n > @ > No, actually it's easier to just tell my boss to dump all thatA > obsolete VMS stuff.  But I thought it was the consensus of thishC > group that that was a bad thing and thet getting as much exposure H > to the academic world as possible was a good thing.  "Getting familiarB > with the jargon" may be a necessity, but getting servers runningE > for the use of students and faculty is what I'm paid to do.  And iflC > making those servers VMS involves too much of my time and effort,dC > well, you can guess where they will end out in the pecking order. @ > My boss knows Unix and my boss, like it or not, has to support@ > the Windows environment.  If setting up and using VMS involves= > enough effort to take me away from those tasks, VMS looses.t  ; If you need more time to manage your VMS system(s) than forv> managing your UNIX system(s) then there is something wrong. It@ is well known that you can do management on VMS more efficiently# and therefore you need less people.e  a > |>G > |> > Who said it had to be modified a lot??  I usually do it once perwC > |> > machine.  If all the machines I had were exactly the same in F > |> > configuration I would need to do it once.  VMS is no different.G > |> > Or don't you agree that the amount of memory and the size of the G > |> > disks can require different settings for things like pagefiles??e > |>C > |> But amount of memory and size of page- and swapfiles shouldn'tgE > |> be compiled in anyway. And what about adjustments to the averagegE > |> usage of the system? Is there anything like the VMS optimisationhE > |> cycle of running the system and then running AUTOGEN? Is there atE > |> usage profile collecting mechanism? Will you re-build the kernell  > |> after each change of usage? > B > I see you are about as familiar with Unix config and tuning as IA > am of VMS.  Let it suffice to say that I can tune a Unix system , > a lot easier than I can tune a VMS system.  @ Not a very convincing answer although there is no doubt that you> can tune a UNIX system a lot easier because you don't know VMS enough.l   >  > |>* > |> > |> Does Solaris run Linux binaries? > |> >M > |> > Take that up with Andrew.  There is no reason why it can't except thataO > |> > Sun doesn't want it to.  All the necessary libraries for Linux are free.  > |>B > |> Come on, this wasn't the question! Is Solaris able to executeE > |> Linux binaries? To be able to do that the loader must understande" > |> all the Linux binary formats. > B > There is no technical reason why Solaris can't do what Linux andC > all the various flavors of BSD do in this respect.  The fact thateD > it doesn't is apparently a decision made by Sun.  I can't tell youB > why they don't, nor can I fix it.  But then, I won't run Solaris	 > either.t  > Not clearly related to the problem. If you can't execute Linux binaries you loose your point.  n > |>B > |> Good point. But I don't think this does any good in improvingC > |> the credibility of people responsible for and developing UNIX. > > |> We shouldn't confuse the situation at SUN and HP with the> > |> current stupid behaviour of Compaq wrt to VMS. Compaq hasC > |> alternatives whereas SUN and HP only had their respective OSs.nE > |> And I heard that HP/UX even offers unique realtime qualities. So-E > |> there is at least a reason for doing proprietary extensions. ButhB > |> what I don't understand and count as point against the way ofD > |> UNIX people's thinking is that the developers at the respectiveD > |> companies deliberately made their OSs worse. How can we explain
 > |> that? > G > Why does any company do anything in a proprietary manner??  Software,SG > Hardware, whatever.  They think they can bring something to the tableeE > that is valuable enough to win potential customers over.  And then,oD > they have to hold them.  IBM has been doing this for years.  I canC > remember some dandy horror stories from my contracting days.  IBMwC > dropping support for machines that were still under lease forcingsD > the current users either by themselves out of the lease at a greatA > expense or upgrade, thus locking themselves into IBM yet again.TA > Why do people do it??  Obviously because they see value in thisl@ > strategy.  The greatest innovations in Unix technology are not@ > coming from these copanies, but from the free BSD's that who'sA > communities are made up of very much of the same people who didtA > this work at Berkeley and people like them.  I see none of thise? > coming from the former SYSV side of the house.  Again, it alla# > comes down to vision and mindset.o  > You are obviously misunderstanding my point. I don't criticise= that they do proprietary extensions. I'm criticisig that they ; made their OS worse as *you* said. And we shouldn't confuser= extensions to a core and the absence of a complete core as iss< the problem for UNIX. You can call it absence of a standard.; There are other standards implemented by a lot of differentb@ vendors where this model works. So why not with UNIX? Why didn't< they improve the interal quality like speed and reliability?? This could have been done without a singel API change and wouldo; have helped them to make a difference. But they even didn't>$ establish source text compatibility!   >  > |>X > |> > |> Hmm.  What's the oldest working binary on your favorite system?  Early 1980's? > |> >J > |> > I'll have to concede that one to you.  Having changed from Sparc toN > |> > x86 I have no old binaries for the architecture I am currently running. > |>C > |> We shouldn't stretch this point as it is not clear that beeingiD > |> able to execute old binaries is that a good thing. Basically itD > |> prevents the OS to evolve. If you look at the Windoze API afterA > |> the evolution from 16 to 32 bit you see what the approach ofhA > |> backward compatibility and introduction of new features willt > |> create: a complete mess.e > > > I agree, and when you take into account that it was the UnixE > mindset (and not Ada as many seem to think) that actually developed B > the concept of software re-usability by releasing a lot of stuffC > in source form (comp.sources.unix as a newsgroup goes back to the > > early 80's).  This, of course, makes it unnecessary to worryD > about binary compatability accross versions of the OS.  You simply > recompile at strategic times.t  @ Not true at all neither theoretically not in praxis. The problem: comes from the lack of standards and the different library= interfaces. A big program won't compile easily on a differenti? platform. Look at the make scripts for open source programs andc you will understand.> BTW code re-usability is not connected with UNIX. In fact this< kind of re-usability is too low level and ill-designed to be taken seriously.   > |>D > |> The problem with the UNIX kernel re-build is that if you change@ > |> some data structures which are used by programs as I had toE > |> because the structure to hold a host name was too short you willtB > |> even make a current binary which is linked against the kernelD > |> unexecutable. In fact it will execute as with all UNIX variantsA > |> I know of there is no mechanism to detect that the size of aeC > |> running kernel structure is not the size of the structure when ) > |> the program was compiled and linked.t > F > Surely your saying that a static VMS binary can detect these changesC > and fix them on the fly??  Of course you can't arbitrarily change?C > kernel structures without considering the ripple effect this will D > have into other applications.  Why do you think people are talkingC > now about the "2038 bug".  Everyone realizes the necessary changeu@ > will affect a lot more than just the kernel.  The same kind ofE > kernel dependencies were found in a lot of the Y2K problems as wellmB > and not in Unix systems.  The only way this can be avoided is toE > never allow access to anything in the kernel.  Is this true of VMS?t  @ You missed the point. I was arguing that if you had to recompile? your kernel and even to change some of these data structures tor= achieve your optimisation goals you probably would break yourt7 code. With VMS you simply don't re-build the OS kernel.y   > K > |> > Well, thank you for that.  It's true, I don't come here to bash VMS.uH > |> > I have to maintain VMS servers just like I maintain Unix servers.G > |> > Both have their strengths and their weaknesses.  But the biggesteF > |> > difference is in worldview.  Different does not imply better or > |> > worse, just different.t > |>B > |> Good answers but there is still one open point. Do VMS peopleD > |> really slam UNIX more than UNIX people slam VMS or other OSs? I > F > Gee, I thought most Unix people were way too busy slamming the otherF > Unixes to even think about VMS.  But, to be honest, I can't rememberD > the last time I saw VMS mentioned in any of the BSD groups I read.> > I don't read Linux groups so I can't say what goes on there.  > Unfortunately they don't have enought time to think about what< they are doing because they have to solve UNIX problems. And> they mostly don't know about VMS - and they don't have time to get acquainted with because ...s   > E > |> doubt that. If you read the bullshit which is supplied with each B > |> Linux distribution called "VMS to Linux HOWTO" then you might > |> re-think. > B > Maybe so, but Linux did not come out of the same group (mindset)A > as Unix.  Which probably explains a lot about some of the Linux @ > strangeness.  And, no, I have never read or even heard of thatB > particular HowTo, but needing a good laugh today, I think I will > go look for it.h  < Linux is a UNIX variant and we were generally speaking about? UNIX people without any restriction about where they come from.i   > D > |>           And it's not only important how many people spend howB > |> many of their words for slaming (which percentage) it is alsoD > |> important how strong they slam. If you read the bullshit in the= > |> "VMS to Linux HOWTO" you don't need much more slaming tohE > |> outweigh all slaming what has and will be done against UNIX fromp= > |> VMS people. Moreover the normal UNIX slamer doesn't knowb@ > |> anything about VMS. The normal VMS slamer knows a lot about
 > |> UNIX. > C > Here, I would have to disagree with you.  I have seen some prettyyD > strange claims regarding Unix right here int his group and watchedC > as others just took it all in with a nod of the head.  While I amgB > sure that many here have Unix experience, I don't think it is asA > much as you might think and I am certain it is more with the "I @ > know what is best for your users" kind like Ultrix or OSF than > with anything like the BSD's.s  @ Without the examples I couldn't agree. But I'm sure that wrt the> widespread usage of UNIX there are much more VMS people deeply. acquainted with UNIX than the other way round.   > E > |>        Of course you are not a normal UNIX against VMS slamer ifi+ > |> you are a slamer at all which I doubt.e > A > I don't see a reason to slam any OS.  I don't like Solaris, but @ > I am sure there is someone out there for whom it is the answer@ > to a particular problem.  As I said before, the whole world is5 > not a nail, so we need more tools than just hammer.k  ? True, but not really helping in proceeding with the discussion.n9 What we need are sound facts about the fulfillment of ouru> criteria by different OSs. And although I admit there might be> situations where UNIX is part of the solution the big question2 is if this is a vast majority or a small minority.   >  > All the best.r >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:23:47 GMT % From: Uwe Zessin <zessin@my-deja.com> 7 Subject: Re: Midrange I/O with VMS WAS: DS20 - Slow I/O ) Message-ID: <957bcm$q75$1@nnrp1.deja.com>>  + In article <VoiGVxH8hwD6@eisner.decus.org>,t-   young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) wrote:t6 > In article <955csg$4ig$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Uwe Zessin <zessin@my-deja.com> writes:/ > > In article <p9xnuDTWnYno@eisner.decus.org>,f1 > >   young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young) wrote:b	 > > [...]  > >>E > >> So .. just what are you trying to point out about the controllero > >> write logs? > >eF > > I do understand what the write log history in MSCP controllers and; > > certain DSSI Disks is for. Thank's for the reminder ;-)i > >eE > > My point is that the write log as implemented in ACS V8.5P is foreF > > the DRM only. I don't have the SPDs for ACS V8.5F or S handy and IG > > don't have time to look them up, yet - (I'm on my way to a customer ? > > in a couple of minutes) do they talk about write logs, too?e > ; > 	Ah... wished I had waited a few minutes.  Kerry suppliedu
 > 	this link:- >n> > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/fibrechannel.htm  E It's one of my standard bookmarks, but I agree that it's very helpfuli5 and it does not hurt to post it from time to time ;-)n    6 > 	If you check out slide 23 you see HSG write logging@ > 	late 2001 (we know WHL is already in there for DRM), requires- > 	ACS 8.7, possible VMS support in VMS 7.3-1h  A Hm, I've been told from our sales person that ACS V8.6 has _just_oA been released - I don't even have order numbers, yet. Storage andt? OpenVMS engineering really have to hurry if they think they cant still make it in 2001.  F I don't have the slides with me - I'm behind a slow link at the momentE so I can't check, but if I recall correctly that presentation is fromr mid-November last year.t  D Anyway. I doubt that you can use the WHL implementation from DRM for that.   C - the current WHL only kicks in, when both links to the target sitea>   are down. Otherwise, I beleive, the log disk is not written.B   Hey, I can check that in a couple of days. I'll need to set up a8   DRM configuration and do some training for a customer.B   If you're interested in the result, drop me a mail in 2 weeks or$   so on EISNER. Back to the topic...  C - _all_ data that is coming from the host is stored on the log diskI@   (when the WHL is active). Even if a single block is repeatedly@   rewritten, _all_ that data goes to the log disk to do a proper
   catchup.    C How does the write log work on the MSCP controllers? I thought thatp: it just maintains a list of data blocks that were written.                                 ---  
 You wrote:@ "Yes.  HSG80 has WHL (write history logging) now (1).  Hooks for mini-merge coming soon."/ and gave an URL to the SPD of the DRM firmware.t    @ I beleive that those two are completly different implementations@ (let's call them "DRM WHL" and "MSCP WHL") which have nothing toA do with each other. It's fine if we can do shadow mini-merges onea@ distant day with the HSG80 controllers, but it has nothing to do. with these day's firmware capabilities. Agree?   --
 Uwe Zessin3 (If you want to send mail, please use user "zessin":/ who lives at "decus.decus.de", not my-deja.com)m     Sent via Deja.comb http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 18:58:13 -0500* From: young_r@eisner.decus.org (Rob Young)7 Subject: Re: Midrange I/O with VMS WAS: DS20 - Slow I/On+ Message-ID: <1N8Cc42lHwLL@eisner.decus.org>   Q In article <957bcm$q75$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Uwe Zessin <zessin@my-deja.com> writes:r   > B > I beleive that those two are completly different implementationsB > (let's call them "DRM WHL" and "MSCP WHL") which have nothing to > do with each other.   4 	Yes... and while unrelated perhaps they borrow code 	and naming conventions?  ;-)N  / > It's fine if we can do shadow mini-merges oneuB > distant day with the HSG80 controllers, but it has nothing to do0 > with these day's firmware capabilities. Agree?  < 	Absolutely... and it is what keeps HSG/HSZ unattractive for 	shops with mucho shadowsets.    				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:45:58 +0000t; From: Malcolm MacArthur <malcolmm@rustic-place.demon.co.uk>l+ Subject: Re: Monitoring external tempratureo8 Message-ID: <3A774426.8B5B92F9@rustic-place.demon.co.uk>   Mark-Simon Pope wrote: > H > I've got a rack with a couple of DS20's, and some fiber attached disk,F > running VMS 7.1.  This is in an air conditioned room with some otherJ > equipment.  I'm capable of sending alerts to my alpha numeric pager from > these boxes. > N > I'm looking for a product that can monitor the rooms temperature so I can be( > alerted when the cooling systems fail. >  > Ever heard of anything?  > K > I walked into a steaming hot computer room this morning, the air had been L > down most of the weekend. Previously, we had been able to rely on securityJ > patrols to alert us.  They still walk through the room, guess that's all > they do now. > 	 > thanks,i	 > Mark-S.sH Some UPSs have serial ports which allow you to query the UPS. At my workG we have a Kermit script which connects to the UPS and merely repeatedlyaI issues the command 'status' to retrieve the temperature. Our UPS measures J the ambient temperature, and can initiate a shutdown if it gets too hot (I6 think... as far as I know it isn't set up to do that).  I It could be possible that you have a UPS with similar features. You couldsP write a program to query the ambient temperature and alert you if it rises above a certain temperature.  O I think there are Unix programs to do this sort of thing - you might be able tosB adapt such a program. (don't know any details, but I'm sure such a" program exists for - ack- Linux ;)   -Malcolm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:22:12 -0600n9 From: "Nottingham, Jonnie" <Jonnie.Nottingham@compaq.com>h, Subject: RE: New Elsa Graphic patch LocationH Message-ID: <202F03744BDCD31194270000F803CA9E9524D5@cxoexc2.cxo.dec.com>  I This kit was accidentally placed in the incorrect directory on the publiceI patch server.  It was placed in the V7.2-1 directory instead of the 7.1-2nE directory.  This has been corrected.  This kit cannot be installed one V7.2-1.o Jonnie Nottingham   <<...OLE_Obj...>>  * Content Quality/Patch Distribution Support   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:42:30 GMT'( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>, Subject: Re: New Elsa Graphic patch Location' Message-ID: <G7ztIu.8sK@spcuna.spc.edu>n  9 Nottingham, Jonnie <Jonnie.Nottingham@compaq.com> writes:tK > This kit was accidentally placed in the incorrect directory on the publichK > patch server.  It was placed in the V7.2-1 directory instead of the 7.1-2eG > directory.  This has been corrected.  This kit cannot be installed ono	 > V7.2-1.   L   Ok. When will we see a version of that kit for 7.2-1, and in the meanwhile< can the prior graphics-721 patch get reinstated on the site?  4         Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com5         terry@tmk.com             Jersey City, NJ USA,   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:59:01 -0800y! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comu= Subject: Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the nichekD Message-ID: <OF3EAF8DBD.F1E7D9C8-ON882569E4.0067420D@foundation.com>  G I have heard that RM is drafting something to post on this group on thetH subject. I suggest we wait a couple of days and see what he says. It's aF no-brainer that anything he posts is going to be vetted at the highestE levels, so how much he's allowed to say will probably be a reasonabletF indication of what's really going on, although it probably won't be as  strong as he (or we) would like.  H I'm personally going to be looking for quotable "text bites" that we canD try and seed into magazine articles. Let's face it, this fuss on the+ newsgroup is probably newsworthy in itself.a   Shane           E Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@k9.healthnet.com on 01/30/2001e 10:08:00 AMT   Sent by:  prep@k9.healthnet.comt     To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come cc:   > Subject:  Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche    = "Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)" <GlennEverhart@FirstUSA.com> writes:a  < > Anyone for toning down the whining a few tens of decibels?8 > We've gotten confirmation Capellas did NOT mean Compaq3 > is leaving VMS, but the contrary (as made sense).e   That settles it for me.r  ; Glen has twice posted that the fears are at least, a littleoE off the mark. So lets give it a day of so and let the wheels turn OK?   D The feeling I get from this distant view point is that MC *IS* awareJ that VMS and Alpha are the unexpected jewels in Compaqs crown, and that heG is batteling the internal diehards to get things turned around and fulle steam ahead.  C But the lack of notice or such is a bit of a PR snafu. Ce la vie...g   --< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:30:28 +0000b) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>s= Subject: Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the nichef, Message-ID: <3A774084.8E156A0C@infopuls.com>   "Everhart, Glenn (FUSA)" wrote:p > < > Anyone for toning down the whining a few tens of decibels?8 > We've gotten confirmation Capellas did NOT mean CompaqA > is leaving VMS, but the contrary (as made sense). We know there @ > is work going on in Spit Brook to speed VMS I/O up. This takesG > time though, and VMS engineering is not in the habit of preannouncing B > stuff. Don't expect to see 200 beta versions of code, as happensA > with stuff like reiserfs on Linux as it is built. But the folksuC > need some time & patience to design, build and test. If you don't D > like that, VMS can support other filesystems; go and write one youB > like better. (yeah, nontrivial, but doable.) One legacy SpiralogB > left was an API that is easier than the old one, but others haveA > written filesystems for VMS using the interfaces that have beeni > there for ages.wF >   Same with advertising I fear. It takes some time to build internal > consensus.> >    If you feel it's a waste, OK. Maybe it will prove so. The? > complaining here is however harmful and I suspect reduces they= > chance that good might come to VMS. IMO the product doesn'ti > deserve ill words. > Glenn Everhart >   ; I'm not familiar with low level programming and HW details. < Therefore I would like to know if the two points criticised,= i.e. slow I/O and fast controllers for a reasonable price noto= available could be solved by writing a filesystem. Do we needa9 also write drivers for controllers? Do we need also write > firmware for controlers to be able to use them with Alpha/VMS?? As I said, I'm not familiar with these low level stuff, but I'm = not sure if writing a filesystem solves all problems. Are thed= driver and firmware APIs specifications available? Is it f.e. = possible to port the Linux ext2 filesystem with the necessaryi& extensions for a richer attribute set?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:08:44 -0500u2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)= Subject: Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the niche L Message-ID: <rdeininger-3101010008450001@user-2iveac1.dialup.mindspring.com>  W In article <3A774084.8E156A0C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:s    t= > I'm not familiar with low level programming and HW details.n> > Therefore I would like to know if the two points criticised,? > i.e. slow I/O and fast controllers for a reasonable price notu5 > available could be solved by writing a filesystem.    O VMS engineering is working on file system improvements.  No need to start over.o   > Do we need& > also write drivers for controllers?     Folks are working on that too...   > Do we need also writeo@ > firmware for controlers to be able to use them with Alpha/VMS?  
 ... and that.o  A > As I said, I'm not familiar with these low level stuff, but I'mw? > not sure if writing a filesystem solves all problems. Are the ? > driver and firmware APIs specifications available? Is it f.e. ? > possible to port the Linux ext2 filesystem with the necessaryn( > extensions for a richer attribute set?  There are several layers.  "Port Drivers" talk directly to controllers. "Class Drivers" talk to port drivers in a pretty controller-neutral way.  DKDRIVER, the SCSI class driver is an example.  It talks to different controllers via different port drivers.  The class-port interface is documented internally, I think.  "Normal" code talks to the class driver via the QIO service.  (Is there such a thing as normal code?)   Neither of these drivers is all that close to the file system.  There's also XQP, the eXtended QIO Processor (I think).  It handles stuff that's too big and complex for a device driver, but too low level for "RMS".  I think disk quotas are an example of something done in XQP.  XQP is sort of an extension of the device drivers.  The boundaries between drivers, XQP, and RMS are kind of blury -- in my mind, and maybe in reality also.  j Read in the "Internals and Data Structures" book to get a much more detailed (and more accurate) overview.   Where is the "filesystem" buried in all of this?  I would say in RMS, but I'm far from an expert.  There's an out-of-print "file system internals" book that I'd like to read, but I've never seen it.   One reason we don't get the latest and greatest in VMS right away is because VMS tends to have higher standards.  A big focus has always been reliability and data integrity.  That often means fixing firmware in commodity devices and controllers, or programming the driver to deal with near-compliant hardware.  It certainly involves a lot of testing.  It means there is a reluctance to support commodity stuff if the firmware details change for each production run.  A lot of time, money, and effort is spent cha   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comw   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:15:12 -0600a/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>a= Subject: Re: No technical computing, was: expanding the nicheo2 Message-ID: <3A77AD70.91CF0A1@applied-synergy.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:  > > Neither of these drivers is all that close to the file system.  There's also XQP, the eXtended QIO Processor (I think).  It handles stuff that's too big and complex for a device driver, but too low level for "RMS".  I think disk quotas are an example of something done in XQP.  XQP is sort of an extension of the device drivers.  The boundaries between drivers, XQP, and RMS are kind of blury -- in my mind, and maybe in reality also.    D Device drivers control block level access to a disk.  They only know1 about blocks, i.e., LBNs (Logical Block Numbers).l  H The XQP handles the filesystem.  It knows about files and it manages theG directories.  It provides VBNs (Virtual Block Numbers).  I believe thate it also processes ACLs.   G RMS manages file contents.  It also provides the mapping from pathnamesf to particular files.  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------u$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com t   Fax: 817-237-3074    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:17:50 GMT 4 From: "Peter Ljungberg" <peter.p.ljungberg@telia.se> Subject: OpenVHS (funny!)y5 Message-ID: <OjFd6.10279$Qb7.1523115@newsb.telia.net>e   Hi all,d  L I got my "joint european conference" today, the second page contains a funny line,hL "... concentrates on OpenVHS, Tru64 UNIX, and NonStop Himalaya tailored" and so on,2 nice, now we even got an open video system, great!     /P.Ljt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:43:19 -0600k% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>c Subject: Re: OpenVHS (funny!)o' Message-ID: <3A775FA7.BE34F0C2@isd.net>o   Peter Ljungberg wrote: > 	 > Hi all,  > N > I got my "joint european conference" today, the second page contains a funny > line, N > "... concentrates on OpenVHS, Tru64 UNIX, and NonStop Himalaya tailored" and > so on,4 > nice, now we even got an open video system, great! >  > /P.Ljm    H Reminds me of years ago when I saw job add in the newspaper for FAX/VMS.   -- o Keith Brown  kbrown780@isd.netg   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2001 21:01:24 GMT= From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818)i7 Subject: OpenVMS+Perl 5.0.0305A (?) and EmuMail modules>, Message-ID: <957a34$12n2@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>  L I've downloaded the Unix perl scripts for EmuMail (www.emumail.com) with theL hope of getting a full-fledged MIME-compliant web email client that will runJ under CSWS (Apache) as its web server on the same OpenVMS box that my POP,8 IMAP and SMTP servers are running under PMDF on OpenVMS.  G EmuMail's tech support folks claim that they have "heard" of successfulyH implementations of EmuMail on VMS.  Of course, they could be transposingK letters and have meant (or thought *I* meant) MVS.  Who knows.  So far theyKE haven't replied back to my request for "references" at OpenVMS sites.n  L The whole of the package seems to be Perl.  Lots of modules, along with dataA files and HTML that go together under a web server (like Apache).t  I Uncompressing of the .tar files I did on a Unix box.  I then FTP the .tar N files to OpenVMS and run VMSTAR to split them out.  Now I'm manually trying to build the Perl modules.   G Even the first item results in errors.  The MakeMaker component builds,rJ without error, a DESCRIP.MMS file for me.  But when I invoke MMS, I get  aG slew of errors, warnings *and* error level.  Note that even one of the .9 complaints is about the file SCOPE.H in the PERL library:k   $mmsA %MMS-W-MBREDEFILL, Illegal attempt to redefine macro INSTALLDIRS.o  J CC/DECC /Include=[]/Standard=Relaxed_ANSI/Prefix=All/Obj=.obj/List/Machine2 /Define=("VERSION=""1.20""","XS_VERSION=""1.20""")> /Include=(perl_root:[lib.VMS_AXP.5_00503.CORE])/Optimize  IO.c       Sigjmp_buf		je_buf;		  ....^ < %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.H at line number 133 in file PERL_ROOT:[LIB.VMS_AXP.5_00503.CORE]SCOPE.H;1  1     RETVAL = fcntl(PerlIO_fileno(f), F_GETFL, 0);p .............^c %CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "fcntl" is implicitly declared as a function.  at line number 118 in file  J JCLEAVLAND:[EMUMAIL.EMUMAIL-4-5-9-COMPLETE.EMUMAIL-MODULES_V459.IO]IO.XS;1  1     RETVAL = fcntl(PerlIO_fileno(f), F_GETFL, 0);.& .....................................^? %CC-E-UNDECLARED, In this statement, "F_GETFL" is not declared.a at line number 118 in file  J JCLEAVLAND:[EMUMAIL.EMUMAIL-4-5-9-COMPLETE.EMUMAIL-MODULES_V459.IO]IO.XS;1  0 	    ret = fcntl(PerlIO_fileno(f),F_SETFL,mode);* .........................................^? %CC-E-UNDECLARED, In this statement, "F_SETFL" is not declared.f at line number 173 in file sJ JCLEAVLAND:[EMUMAIL.EMUMAIL-4-5-9-COMPLETE.EMUMAIL-MODULES_V459.IO]IO.XS;1  0 	    ret = fcntl(PerlIO_fileno(f),F_SETFL,mode);* .........................................^? %CC-E-UNDECLARED, In this statement, "F_SETFL" is not declared.e at line number 180 in file  J JCLEAVLAND:[EMUMAIL.EMUMAIL-4-5-9-COMPLETE.EMUMAIL-MODULES_V459.IO]IO.XS;1G %MMS-F-ABORT, For target IO.OBJ, CLI returned abort status: %X10B91262.-    0 OpenVMS Perl implementors' comments are welcome!  M +-"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+hN | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")            InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu | M | Systems Design Specialist - Lead       AT&T:      (814) 865-1818          | M | Library Computing Services             FAX:       (814) 863-3560          |tM | E3 Paterno Library                     "I'd rather be dancing..."         |hM | Penn State University         A host is a host from coast to coast,       |nM | University Park, PA 16802     And no one will talk to a host that's close | M | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>  Unless the host that isn't close            |rM | VMS GopherMeister             Is busy, hung or dead.                      |iM +------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+-9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999]l3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a> jJ <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:33:19 GMTi+ From: Craig A. Berry <calepine@my-deja.com>d; Subject: Re: OpenVMS+Perl 5.0.0305A (?) and EmuMail modulesm) Message-ID: <957fff$u5q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>    Lance,  B I have no experience with EmuMail, but I've built quite a few PerlB modules and never run into quite the same problems you are seeing.: The first thing is to make sure all is well with your Perl# installation.  What do you get from    $ perl -"V"m  E and what do you find under PERL_ROOT:[LIB.VMS_AXP.5_00503.CORE] (it'sr* possible you are missing an include file)?  = It occurs to me since you are using CSWS you may be using thesD Compaq-supported Perl PCSI kit, and it is possible the configurationE under which it was built does not match your system.  What version of  OVMS AXP are you running?s   > CC/DECC /Include=r9 []/Standard=Relaxed_ANSI/Prefix=All/Obj=.obj/List/Machinep  E Where did the /List/Machine come from?  Did you edit the descrip.mms?hC It shouldn't hurt but it's not something you'd ordinarily see.  Youu? should be able to get a debug build with MMS/MACRO=__DEBUG__=1.i   >     Sigjmp_buf		je_buf;r  C This should be defined in your config.h in the Perl core directory.s  3 >     RETVAL = fcntl(PerlIO_fileno(f), F_GETFL, 0);x  E fcntl() is a relatively recent addition to the C RTL.  If your systempB has it (which it does if you're on 7.2-1) you should make sure the( HAVE_FCNTL macro is defined in config.h.  2 > OpenVMS Perl implementors' comments are welcome!  , Posting to vmsperl@perl.org is also welcome.     Sent via Deja.comh http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:00:48 GMT2 From: cuttler@my-deja.com . Subject: Pathworks and Win2000, admin messages) Message-ID: <9576h9$le5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>I   Hello,  7 We are running LanWorks on VMS and have found that some.7 of our PC based users are getting management broadcastso9 such as login failure announcements from the VMS/Lanworkst machine.  > I don't see any reason to continue to broadcast these messages= and would like to turn them off at the server but didn't findy$ that switch when reading the manual.  ' Anyone know where the right button is ?.   thanks, Brian Cuttlero brian@wadsworth.orgn cuttler@albany.net     Sent via Deja.comk http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:52:49 +1300c9 From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nnnoospam.met.co.nz>r2 Subject: Re: Pathworks and Win2000, admin messages2 Message-ID: <b%Kd6.5025$Ac6.108118@ozemail.com.au>  & you will find in the config for pwrks,  it has administrator by default.  * I guess that that means the people who are$ geetting the error are administrator% or are logged on as an administrator.    i think that is how it works     antony    J <cuttler@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9576h9$le5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Hello, > 9 > We are running LanWorks on VMS and have found that someh9 > of our PC based users are getting management broadcastsu; > such as login failure announcements from the VMS/Lanworks 
 > machine. >o@ > I don't see any reason to continue to broadcast these messages? > and would like to turn them off at the server but didn't find & > that switch when reading the manual. >c) > Anyone know where the right button is ?a >a > thanks, Brian Cuttlers > brian@wadsworth.orgu > cuttler@albany.net >s >t > Sent via Deja.comu > http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:43:08 -0500i6 From: "Dominic Olivastro" <DOlivastro@ChiResearch.com>' Subject: Pathworks and Windows ME againf% Message-ID: <QtGd6.65$fj7.735@client><  H I got a very good reply from Compaq about using Pathworks on Windows ME.H The response, essentially was that they do not support ME right now, butD they have heard that others have used PW Client 7.2 without a hitch.  G My question is:  Is this true?  Are there any out there with first handt, knowledge?  My (expected) situation is this.   PW Server 5.0F
 PW Client 7.2e PC OS Windows ME VAX VMS 6.1l  8 Does anyone know if this configuration will work or not?   TIAo Domr     -- Dominic Olivastroh CHI Research, Inc  10 White Horse Pike  Haddon Heights, NJ 08035   Phone:  1-856-546-0600 Fax:       1-856-546-9633n% mailto:    DOlivastro@ChiResearch.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:15:54 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> , Subject: Re: Please help the mVAX newbie ..., Message-ID: <3A77917A.C2F28F3@earthlink.net>   jmarecek@my-deja.com wrote:  >  > Hello, mighty DEC gurus! > I > friend of mine gave me a mVAX 3100 system a few days ago ... I am a C++KE > developer and it's sad to say ... I have seen real mVAX (except for H > testdrive@compaq) for the first time ... it's probably some very basicF > and not-easy-to-solve remotely sort of problem ... I connect all the? > cables, incl. the one to the VT420 ... and turn the power on.w > I > In most cases it just makes and after a while and do not start even thehG > fans ...  A few times I have managed to get it running (the green LEDwG > shines), but while watching the status leds on the back, it went likep > **** ****i > **** > ***  > ** > *s > and then turned itself off...s  E Well, MicroVAX 3100s have a rocker switch for the power. So, it can'tg "turn itself off".  # Does the green power light stay on?   ) Is the VT plugged into MMJ jack number 1?o  < Is the VT set to 9600 baud, 8 bits, no parity, one stop bit?   Is the VT tested good?  B Is the data cable at the VT end plugged into the correct MMJ jack?? (Should be the one nearest the center on the back of the unit.)e  3 Is the VT Set up set for data leads only on "COM1"?e   --   David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.S   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:47:31 GMT * From: Eugene Zharkov <zharkov@my-deja.com> Subject: posixc$cma.optr) Message-ID: <957g9v$v34$1@nnrp1.deja.com>i  - I have found the problem. Historically all mya, makefiles had an sys$library:POSIXC$CMA/opt.- Everything seemed to work just fine until noww) (including multiple threads and upcalls),s# so I did not care to get rid of it.b) Oh well. Wasted a couple of days on thesei* mysterious crashes (but still do not quite, understand why this option had such effect).       Sent via Deja.com  http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:32:20 GMTx- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>s8 Subject: Re: Share Your Feelings About "The end for VMS"D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0101301430020.25261-100000@world.std.com>  - On 28 Jan 2001, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:h  E > On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> wrote:1F > >If you are a VMS user or enthusiast who is concerned about Compaq'sF > >treatment of the OS in the recent financial analyst conference, whyE > >not visit www.compaqworkinggroup.org and register your opinion viarD > >the online advocacy mechanism? It's far more likely that CPQ willG > >respond to a slew of postings in the advocacy forum than to materiale > >posted on Usenet. >  > Terry, > L > Do they permit the anonymous registration of opinions? Or will disgruntledJ > employees find themselves seeking alternative employment for registering< > their disgust at the mis-treatment of such a fine product?  J You can post anonymously. The advocacy tool will of course know from whnceH the submission came, but I think CPQ has bigger fish to fry than formingG an Advocacy Secret Police force. If it's a matter of concern, post from  someone else's PC!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:24:50 -0600h; From: Lord Running Clam <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>r8 Subject: Re: Share Your Feelings About "The end for VMS"- Message-ID: <200101302124.PAA28844@www.xg.nu>i  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  C On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> wrote:t  M >> Do they permit the anonymous registration of opinions? Or will disgruntlednK >> employees find themselves seeking alternative employment for registering = >> their disgust at the mis-treatment of such a fine product?i  K >You can post anonymously. The advocacy tool will of course know from whncePI >the submission came, but I think CPQ has bigger fish to fry than formingcH >an Advocacy Secret Police force. If it's a matter of concern, post from >someone else's PC!   	 Question:s?   Why, when speaking with analysts, would it be unreasonable ton>   mention VMS? After all, what keeps their Wall Street casinos
   running?  > Anyway, it seems you don't need Cousin-It Anonymous to get the? good folks here all riled up. CPQ seem to manage it with barelye a mention of VMS. ;-)   ; Here, have a M$-Humbug. They're free - but you could end upT hooked for life.; [http://www.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=721911670&fmt=text]I     LRC. - -- .6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.  8 PS. If ya still want us to send da Plumbers into Redwood     Mr. (Ex-)President . . .  ; [Note: Due to a recent unix-induced solar storm, traffic tod/        ganymede is experiencing packet losses.]i   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----e Version: N/A  @ iQEVAwUBOnX18oer+ijnZohVAQH2bQf/RlmRJOcJtDVhicQbgIAAlfDlpFF6LcQi@ ceVqutZZheHM3VddzqS4GU8TQvCESVVC/+XusEMgHYbW+D5U8JaEa1s4Mer4Awre@ XUePtHG2qyjX41CgOD9ceLXJ/AMiWBqOlRo2rTDdc7W3QFTi6fTAFxCICMfV72Wq@ 6mXuSLTbQuTXtQb9qYpYIo8HAlXSG63MtTwSC/G6P/TjGAabyhXgskD5GGfokmfM@ rq8rlEEhJy74vghBB0RVrRTLkP3R/JwRTllpLiPYPwr3obZco+cE0KjTq6fpolxX8 a8OZiienmKHu3MdPka04Epqyo9X0wSX3ezAiNk39agOVF6PHywv2lg== =CCzBn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 01:14:50 -0500e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: The joys of unix - a real-world exampleL Message-ID: <rdeininger-3101010114500001@user-2ive73g.dialup.mindspring.com>   I'm probably being naughty by posting this.  It's from an annoying mailing list I'm not supposed to unsubscribe, though less than 1% of the list's content is of any use to me.  I'm just annoyed enough to share the irrelevance with y'all...a  * Details removed to protect the innocent...  
 ----------  4 Both disk3 and disk4 are sick with the same disease:< files (and then directories) on the disk become unaccessibleJ (ls, cd and ilk hung), then the machine eventually croaks (refuses logins)C and has to be reset. This problem seems to be triggered by deleting B files from the disks (the first things to hang are "rm" commands).  : So far, there were no reports of this problem on the other  disks (disk1, disk2 and others).  A I have a call open to SGI technical support (but by best of luck, 1 our assigned engineer is on jury duty this week).   / In the short term (weeks), we can do either of:-  A  a) live dangerously: keep both disk3 and disk4 online and suffert.     through unexpected reboots every so often.;  b) do (a) and ask users to refrain from deleting files. If :     the problem is triggered by "rm", as we suspect, maybeC     will become a bit more stable (no, this is *not* a valid reason      to buy more disks).i<  c) mount disk3 and disk4 read-only, NFS-exported read-only.  d) keep both disks offline.  E I am soliciting votes and opinions on these options. If you use disk30 and disk4, please speak up.7  D In the very short term (next few days), I have installed and enabledD the kernel debugging tools and will do some experimentation on disk3G and disk4. This means that both disks will be generally unavailable for  the next day or two.  
 ----------  " A few random thoughts/questions...R 1. Is "ilk" a new unix command, or should I read it in the conventional sense? :-) 2. Do you consider "weeks" to be short term for a service call on a newish system, when the problem is taking the system out of production?-F 3. Do you want to join SGI's field test program?  It looks easy to do. 4. With this problem description, would you be a little concerned about data loss, or just the inconvenience of frequent reboots?  Do unix folks worry about data loss?h> 5. Is this sort of thing covered in the unix-hater's handbook?   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:15:57 -0800M! From: Don Sykes <don@alphase.com>e# Subject: Try this on Linux or NT/MEM+ Message-ID: <3A7712ED.978DAC4F@alphase.com>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------D69F8E2D189B44F7E5B178AF* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitn  E The Oakland police dept went into production with their 911 emergencytF dispatch system in 1991. It's now a DEC 7000 Model 710 cluster running
 VMS Ver.V6.2.wE The application tracks all 911 calls (thousands per day) and controlshF all police dispatching for the city (pop ~300,000). I just checked andH the application and OS have been running continuously, 24/7, for over 138 months. It was last rebooted "14-DEC-1999 06:37:31.00" !/ Can any other OS point to successes like this ?nH I know I have to reboot my NT 4.0 W/S every few days. Linux might last a
 few weeks.      & --------------D69F8E2D189B44F7E5B178AF- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;u  name="don.vcf"H Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitM' Content-Description: Card for Don Sykesi  Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="don.vcf"R   begin:vcard  n:Sykes;Donb$ tel;cell:Available to customers only tel;fax:415-485-6895 tel;work:415-457-8532r x-mozilla-html:TRUE5 org:Alpha Software Engineering8 adr:;;1380 Lincoln Ave - Suite 5;San Rafael;CA;94901;USA version:2.1e email;internet:don@alphase.com title:Owneri note:Website www.alphase.com x-mozilla-cpt:;7456  fn:Don Sykes	 end:vcard_  ( --------------D69F8E2D189B44F7E5B178AF--   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2001 03:55:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Try this on Linux or NT/ME-- Message-ID: <87n1c84xxe.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   # Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> writes:F  J > the application and OS have been running continuously, 24/7, for over 13: > months. It was last rebooted "14-DEC-1999 06:37:31.00" !  E Ah, Y2K? What is the cluster foundation time? I suspect the *cluster*5! up time may be a good bit longer.r  C Didn't some one post that they had shut down a machine that had run^9 11 years non-stop? Was some time ago as I seem to recall.l   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.f@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:19:17 GMTD7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)I' Subject: Re: Try this on Linux or NT/MEC& Message-ID: <G7zsG9.5Iu@world.std.com>  # Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> writes:   F >The application tracks all 911 calls (thousands per day) and controlsG >all police dispatching for the city (pop ~300,000). I just checked and I >the application and OS have been running continuously, 24/7, for over 13 9 >months. It was last rebooted "14-DEC-1999 06:37:31.00" !s0 >Can any other OS point to successes like this ?  I The apparent uptime record is a VMS system running a railroad in Ireland, I it had an uptime of 18 YEARS.  Unfortunately it was recently shutdown for  an upgrade.v   -Miker   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:22:12 -0800e! From: Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> ' Subject: Re: Try this on Linux or NT/MEh+ Message-ID: <3A7784E3.74E07DF0@alphase.com>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------E12967B2CACF62E86E74F07D* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitA  & 18 years is indeed a hell of a record.: I repeat, Can any other OS point to successes like these ?   Michael Moroney wrote:  % > Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> writes:  >,H > >The application tracks all 911 calls (thousands per day) and controlsI > >all police dispatching for the city (pop ~300,000). I just checked and9K > >the application and OS have been running continuously, 24/7, for over 13b; > >months. It was last rebooted "14-DEC-1999 06:37:31.00" !i2 > >Can any other OS point to successes like this ? >sK > The apparent uptime record is a VMS system running a railroad in Ireland, K > it had an uptime of 18 YEARS.  Unfortunately it was recently shutdown for.
 > an upgrade.o >b > -Mikee  & --------------E12967B2CACF62E86E74F07D- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;h  name="don.vcf"t Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitb' Content-Description: Card for Don Sykesb  Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="don.vcf"S   begin:vcard  n:Sykes;DonC$ tel;cell:Available to customers only tel;fax:415-485-6895 tel;work:415-457-8532r x-mozilla-html:TRUEn org:Alpha Software Engineering8 adr:;;1380 Lincoln Ave - Suite 5;San Rafael;CA;94901;USA version:2.1  email;internet:don@alphase.com title:Ownerl note:Website www.alphase.com x-mozilla-cpt:;7456	 fn:Don Sykes	 end:vcarde  ( --------------E12967B2CACF62E86E74F07D--   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 04:20:50 +0000() From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>R' Subject: Re: Try this on Linux or NT/MEe+ Message-ID: <3A7792A2.2EA9324@infopuls.com>e   Michael Moroney wrote: > % > Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> writes:t > H > >The application tracks all 911 calls (thousands per day) and controlsI > >all police dispatching for the city (pop ~300,000). I just checked and-K > >the application and OS have been running continuously, 24/7, for over 13:; > >months. It was last rebooted "14-DEC-1999 06:37:31.00" !e2 > >Can any other OS point to successes like this ? > K > The apparent uptime record is a VMS system running a railroad in Ireland,eK > it had an uptime of 18 YEARS.  Unfortunately it was recently shutdown fora
 > an upgrade.' >  > -Mikes  < I regard this as a modern urban legend in its shortest form.> No power outage in Ireland for that long?? I don't believe it.@ Any useful work done on that machine without mistakenly shutting@ down, switching off or otherwise screwing up?? I don't think so. What version of VMS? Why upgrading now?  Questions, questions, questions.   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Jan 2001 05:39:46 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie):' Subject: Re: Try this on Linux or NT/MEs' Message-ID: <9588f2$13j$1@joe.rice.edu>a  * Christof Brass (brass@infopuls.com) wrote: :k> : I regard this as a modern urban legend in its shortest form.@ : No power outage in Ireland for that long?? I don't believe it.  @ There's a gentleman from Union Switch and Signal who posts here.A He can tell you about railroads' battery backup systems for their1% signaling and dispatching equipment. a  = Railroads can't afford to depend on commercial power for such ( important parts of their physical plant.  B : Any useful work done on that machine without mistakenly shuttingB : down, switching off or otherwise screwing up?? I don't think so. : What version of VMS? : Why upgrading now?" : Questions, questions, questions.  F I've personally seen VMS systems in process control applications that " have been up for more than a year.  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:24:15 +0100-. From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk> Subject: Re: UCX Route problem, Message-ID: <957483$pip$1@news.inet.tele.dk>  8 John Nixon <jorlnixon@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message? news:2NWb6.9541$1m.601346@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...n  I > We obviously have some sort of TCP/IP configuration problem, but we are,E > stumped.  If anyone has any ideas, or if I need to provide any morec detailsq > or information, please ask.  >r  I The big stick seems to be required here: If you are able to reproduce the.J problem on a fairly regular basis on one of the Alpha's, you could try the
 following:  - 1) Create a batch job, looking something likeo  
     $ rep:     $    sh time     $    tcpip sh routei     $    wait 0:0:3n     $ goto rep  1 2) Manually set the route correctly on the Alpha.3  I 3) In a separate process, terminal or batch, start TCPTRACE (make sure to  have lots of disk space)::  7     $ TCPTRACE/output=<file>/packet=<VERY large number>h  I 4) Submit the batch job from 1) on the Alpha, making sure to keep the log7 file  C 5) Await the occurrence of the problem. Perhaps do some work, which  generates traffic.  B 6) When the problem has occurred, stop TCPTRACE and the batch job.  G 7) Identify in the batch job log file the 3-second time interval, which ' contains the occurrence of the problem.i  L 8) Extract the same time interval from the TCPTRACE output file (it's a text file).  I If you need to repeat the experiment because the TCPTRACE output file gotwJ too large, be aware, that TCPTRACE appends new data to the output file, ifF it already exists. So, delete any useless output files before the next experiment.n  I Depending on the size, post the entire file or extract only those packets*C with Source or Destination address equal to the Alpha's IP address.e  G Make sure to include the IP addresses of the Alpha, the printer and any . known nearby routers/gateways in your posting.       Best regards     Jesper Naurc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:37:32 +0100?" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>Y Subject: Re: VAX 6310, VAX 6320, HSC50 and a couple of SA600's - how to plug'em together?e( Message-ID: <957ffd$s4k$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  K The disks may go on controllers built in the VAXen or connect to the HSC50.bI The CI interconnect may be used without an SC008 or SC004; *but* you theneJ need special CI cabling. The SC004 was just a bulkhead and came with a set	 of cablest# that allowed a straight connection.o  & The basic diagram for a CI cluster is:        VAX6320=====+-----+:                                 | SC |====HSC50------SA600    VAX6310=====+-----+  L   == the CI cables (blue  coax, four per node Transmit and Receive for the A and B channels)1)   --- SDI disk cabling (fat black cables)o  
 Hans Vlems  / Erno Palonheimo heeft geschreven in bericht ...$ >n >Greetings,i > E >As a hardcore VAX hobbyist I've got a CI-based VAXcluster consistingbE >of a VAX 6310, a VAX 6320 and a HSC50.  Now I'm about to get hold ofiD >some SA600 disk racks - which would be extremely nice as my clusterB >doesn't have any of its original disks left. :-( Now, which stuffF >plugs where?  I've understood that the VAX machines and the HSC50 canA >be connected together using the BNC cables, but do I need a star-> >coupler?  Should the SA600 racks be connected to the HSC50 orC >someplace else?  I'm only used to DSSI VAXclusters, CI seems to golB >beyond my comprehension (I haven't got any documentation...).  IfB >someone could give me a pointer to good documentation, or explain? >things briefly, I'd appreciate that a lot.  Thanks in advance.o >. >--oB >Erno Palonheimo ; esp@iki.fi ; http://iki.fi/esp/ ; +358505604765   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:30:51 +0100e" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>1 Subject: Re: very sloooooow Glasfibre performancet( Message-ID: <957f2u$rg4$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  8 Did you stripe two shadowsets or shadow two stripe sets?      D Dirk Munk heeft geschreven in bericht <3A76558D.8E1C1CFA@home.nl>... >  >t >"Main, Kerry" wrote:s >g >> Dirk, >>F >> >>> When we restore a DBMS 7 (codasyl) database, the performance isI >> miserable. We get about 30 - 40 IO's /second and see a queue length ofu aboutnI >> 5 on the disks. The whole procedure takes appr. 3 - 4 hr.. In contrasto themG >> same procedure on another (slower) ES40 takes appr. 30 minutes (to af Mylex  >> raid controller). <<< >>G >> Fyi, 30-40 IO's per second is a pretty small number and something is-G >> definately wrong if you are seeing a queue length of 5 on individualo' >> spindles with this number of IO's ..r >2H >It is not to 1 spindle, but to a stripe set of 2 mirrorsets (4 spindles total).0 >2 >>K >> One thought does come to mind - are you restoring to a newly inited disk2 orK >> to (or from?) one that is low in space and perhaps extremely fragmented?n >>; >> Are the same symptoms seen when restoring to a new disk?s >n$ >The disks are new and almost empty. >n >>9 >> Is the restore from disk to disk or from tape to disk?c > & >From internal SCSI disk to fibredisk. >. >> >> >> Regards,l >>
 >> Kerry Maino >> Senior Consultant >> Compaq Canada Inc.P >> Professional Services >> Voice: 613-592-4660 >> Fax  :  819-772-7036f >> Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.comr >> >> -----Original Message-----n( >> From: Dirk Munk [mailto:munk@home.nl]! >> Sent: January 29, 2001 6:38 PMo >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0 >> Subject: very sloooooow Glasfibre performance >>I >> We are experiencing a very disturbing performance problem with our new  >> HSG80 setup.a >>G >> We have a ES40 connected to a HSG80 cabinet (by means of a switch ofr >> course).yA >> The ES40, the switch and the HSG80 are not in use by any otherc >> program/system etc. >>B >> When we restore a DBMS 7 (codasyl) database, the performance isI >> miserable. We get about 30 - 40 IO's /second and see a queue length ofb >> about 5 on the disks.B >> The whole procedure takes appr. 3 - 4 hr.. In contrast the sameH >> procedure on another (slower) ES40 takes appr. 30 minutes (to a Mylex >> raid controller). >>J >> Of course writeback cache is enabled, and the max. cached transfer size >> is 128 or higher. >>H >> We see the same problem on 2 ES40's, with their own switch and HSG80. >>H >> We use VMS 7.2-1 with all applicable patches for fibre and shadowing. >>! >> Has anyone seen this before ??4 >> >> Regards,J >> >> Dirk3 >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:09:47 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>-* Subject: Re: VMS actually mentioned but..., Message-ID: <3A7773EB.72DB18A9@infopuls.com>   Terry C Shannon wrote: > , > On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Christof Brass wrote: > <snip> > >DA > > Well spoken, but don't trust IBM! Never forget what they did  @ > > to OS/2! It's very similar to what ashole Palmer did to VMS. > >i > H > I seem to recall that Microsoft wrote OS/2 for IBM. IBM wanted to makeL > OS/2 a multiplatform OS but neglected to specify this in the contract withK > Microsoft. Microsoft then delivered an IA-32 specific OS. IBM complained, K > Microsoft's lawyers pointed out that there was no multiplatform caveat inr > the contract.b > G > And so we ended up with the first instantiation of Microsoft Business - > Partner as Organ Donor. But not the last...b   :-)m  : I heard a different story (but unfortunately rumor): After? observing what a painful mistake it was to give away the uniqueo; chance to write, to establish and to control the OS for thee> dominant standard and rapidly growing PeeCee IBM decided to do< better. They wanted a replacement of M$DOS which should also> overcome the poor design limitations of the other unforgivable? mistake they did in letting yet another vendor supply (with allh6 the above mentioned connotations and implications) the8 microprocessor, the heart for the PeeCee. Therefore they= designed OS/2 specifically for the 80286 to use its protectedm7 mode which allowed seperate process memory spaces, task ; switching and the addressing of more than 1MB of RAM. GreatN improvement!  : BTW, these mistakes are a result of IBM's ignorance to the8 PeeCee. They simply hadn't any clue that this could be a> profitable business. One IBM guy said that they couldn't image@ that anyone of *their* customers would like to have that crap as# compared to their *real* computers.n  < Because they knew that Micro$oft wouldn't be able to do this> (M$DOS wasn't a Micro$oft development product as you may know,= Micro$oft bought it from another small company) but to not doe? something obviously hostile they invited Micro$oft to do a teamt= development of this next generation OS. Therefore OS/2 hadn't > any graphics interface from the beginning. Instead it was very@ similar to M$DOS and fully character oriented. The PM was an add on similar to X11 on UNIX.  : Micro$oft OTH observed Macintosh, Atari, Amiga all the GUI9 PeeCee like OSs and decided to start a GUI development ind< parallel. Later on they had a quarrel with Micro$oft which I= don't remember exactly. As far as I remember it was about theo: GUI where IBM was reluctant while Micro$oft was pushing. I? couldn't imagine that it was about multiplatform issues becauseT7 it was nearly impossible to port OS/2 to a different HWF6 architecture because of its strong dependency upon the< architecture of the 80286. Does anyone know if OS/2 has ever& ported to a different HW architecture?  = They sold their part on OS/2 to IBM and because they had longc= started an own development they were able to soon deliver theo* first (unusable) version of M$-Windows/NT.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:52:56 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> * Subject: Re: VMS actually mentioned but..., Message-ID: <3A777E08.E050A7F8@infopuls.com>   andrew harrison wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:C > > @ > > Well spoken, but don't trust IBM! Never forget what they did@ > > to OS/2! It's very similar to what ashole Palmer did to VMS. > >a/ > > Ceterum censeo Robert Palmer esse delendam.7 > 0 > I don't think that IBM had much to do with the/ > demise of OS/2, Microsoft get the bulk of the7+ > blame for that though IBM could have beeni) > smarter in their contract negociations.m > / > It was MS after all that released Windows 3.XA4 > as a competitor to OS/2 having helped convince its, > "partners" Lotus and WordPerfect to do GUI1 > versions of their SW for OS/2, just in time for-) > Word and Excel to debut on Windows 3.x.. > 0 > OS/2 wasn't killed by IBM it was killed by the0 > MS marketing machine which convinced customers2 > that Windows 3.X was equivalent/better than OS/25 > when in fact OS/2 was a real OS and Windows 3.x wase3 > just a GUI on top of a single user single taskingr > executive. > 	 > Regards: > Andrew Harrisonn > Enterprise IT Architect8  = You are clearly referring to the very beginning of the story.r? But the last let's say five years IBM is doing a miserably poor,? job in marketing OS/2. They started some sort of niche roulette6: and the customer base got very pissed about. I have a nice< summary of the mistakes and stupid decisions of IBM wrt OS/2< within the last years. Unfortunately it's in German. But the= similarities are daunting. We should compare the OS/2 historye; from the point when IBM took over with the VMS history when1 Compaq took over.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 13:31:44 -0600& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>@ Subject: Re: VMS vs UNIX (was: Linux worm and RedHat 7.0 broken), Message-ID: <m3k87crg4f.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  ' On 1 Shevat 5761, Christof Brass wrote:.  = > I clearly remember that he said in an interview that he waso5 > pissed off that the UNIX sources weren't available.   3 Perhaps I misunderstood other things he said, then.a  E >> they have to keep up with the Joneses (Solaris Jones and NT Jones,n >> mostly).y > + > What do you mean by "Joneses" or "Jones"?a  @ An American expression; "keeping up with the Joneses" usually isE referring to a person who sees their next-door neighbor ("Jones" is aOF common English name) increasing their material wealth in some way, andF feeling they they have to "keep up" with the neighbors by also gaining that wealth.  Sorry about that.d  A >> But of course Linus claims that VMS was all engineering and no ) >> design, so what does he know? *smiles*m > > > "Linus" did claim that? I've heard that he knew how to spell > "VMS". Are you sure he did?0  H It was on linux-kernel, while discussing pthreads.  Beyond that I do not	 remember.7 -- F" Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily ***r5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***t -- 6th of Shevat, 5761  --C "Both Microsoft and Apple have been drifting from their establishedtD visual elements - the QuickTime 4 interface is a sin against God..."  =  -- from "Skin Cancer", http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/04/10/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:43:40 -0500m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>3 Subject: Re: VT220, Message-ID: <3A77196B.1DB5C2C1@videotron.ca>   Mike Price wrote:  > - > Yup it is the current loop or 20mA device. d  K The current loop plug sits at the lower level, between the printer port and.G the RS232 port. We're talking about what is behind the cutout ABOVE the 3 vide-out port which itself is ABOVE the RS232 port.=   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:30:49 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)v Subject: Re: VT2200 Message-ID: <009F6E5A.162EF855@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3A77196B.1DB5C2C1@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Mike Price wrote: >> n. >> Yup it is the current loop or 20mA device.  > L >The current loop plug sits at the lower level, between the printer port andH >the RS232 port. We're talking about what is behind the cutout ABOVE the4 >vide-out port which itself is ABOVE the RS232 port.  I I just looked at the back of mine to refresh my memory.  I always assumedcI that was a special connector for test and/or setup of the terminal.  Per-2I haps too, a way to setup various language personalities for the terminal.m  r --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:22:36 +0800 ' From: Tim Sneddon <tsneddon@olc.com.au>e Subject: RE: VT220< Message-ID: <2FCE1FC4E068D411877B00D0B7477F4D0E1981@onlpc26>  D This isn't the 20mA connector, it's a rectangular, male, 8-pin plug.    o o  o o  o o  o o  G The 20mA, according to the manual, is the plug down the bottom near thetI keyboard and printer plugs. Although I don't have the manual on me at theaD second I'm pretty sure that it said the RS422 connector was the 20mAG connector. There was nothing pointing at the plug I want to know about.w   Tim.  D --------------------------------------------------------------------C "You can download an atmosphere and dial up a groove, but there's aJC certain magic when three musicians and a dyslexic get together and j play in a room."
    -- BonoD --------------------------------------------------------------------   > -----Original Message-----C > From: Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences [mailto:nclews@my-deja.com]w) > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 6:30 PMt > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt > Subject: Re: VT220 >  > > > In article <2FCE1FC4E068D411877B00D0B7477F4D0E197F@onlpc26>,, >   Tim Sneddon <tsneddon@olc.com.au> wrote:7 > > I have a VT220 and oneday while plugging it into a   > VAXstation 4000-90 > I = > > realised it had a plug above the "Composite Video Output o > Connector". IeG > > looked everywhere I can think off. Does anyone know? It is an 8-pin  > male@ > > connector, it's sort of sunk in so it looks like it used to  > have somet > sort > > of cover over it.a > A > Like a white plastic connector that would take a 'pinned' plug?p > G > It's the 20mA comms interface. I am no expert, but there are at least)@ > two variants of the 20mA loop, and they are opto-isolated and  > generallyr= > better for long cable runs. I stand to be corrected though.R > - > Not in common use, I'm pretty sure of that!e >  > -- > nclews at csc dot coml >  >  > Sent via Deja.come > http://www.deja.com/ >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 01:42:39 -0500T- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m Subject: Re: VT220, Message-ID: <3A77B3D3.2184BC1E@videotron.ca>  # OK. Curiosity got the better of me.   ; With the mystery connecter having pins numbered as follows:e( board down, video connector to the left:3 U1-4 for the upper row (most distant from PC board) - L1-4 for the lower row ( nearest to PC board)m   Of the RS232 connector,  PIN 13 goes to L3  PIN 10 goes to L2t PIN 9  goes to L1:  N Only L4 seems not to be connected. All of the 4 pins on the upper row leads to places on the logic board.  L The only inscription if "J3" for the mystery connector, J2 for the composite video and J1 for DB25 RS232.  M This is from a 1988 vintage VT220. (back when DEC stiff was built like tanks)   4 Now, let's see if I can put this thing back together   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2001 14:10:48 -0600& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>3 Subject: Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?g, Message-ID: <m3bssorebb.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  # On 5 Shevat 5761, Uncle Jeff wrote:   G >> if vim is not a symbol, then it is a installed as a command and thust >> you can't do much about it. > A > Yes, vim is an installed program. I should know, I installed itwE > myself! ;&>. I know the problem is with the program itself, becauseeH > other programs, like the tpu editor, translate the logicals just fine.  G Just to clarify:  "install" doesn't just mean "the executable is on the*@ disk and its files are in place" in VMS lingo.  If you knew thisB already, then I apologize; if not, you might try "help install" to( verify what you said you know.  *smiles* -- y" Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily ***r5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***, -- 6th of Shevat, 5761u --- How to please Technologies and Micro Support:-  J 4.  When I.T. support sends you an E-Mail with high importance, delete it       at once. We're just testing.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:11:21 GMTe* From: Uncle Jeff <jeff.howie@federated.ca>3 Subject: Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?a) Message-ID: <957s83$9h3$1@nnrp1.deja.com>   , In article <m3bssorebb.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>,)   Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org> wrote: % > On 5 Shevat 5761, Uncle Jeff wrote:= >-D > >> if vim is not a symbol, then it is a installed as a command and thus  > >> you can't do much about it. > >iC > > Yes, vim is an installed program. I should know, I installed it G > > myself! ;&>. I know the problem is with the program itself, becauseyD > > other programs, like the tpu editor, translate the logicals just fine.d >HE > Just to clarify:  "install" doesn't just mean "the executable is onu the B > disk and its files are in place" in VMS lingo.  If you knew thisD > already, then I apologize; if not, you might try "help install" to* > verify what you said you know.  *smiles*  E OK, you caught me on that one. I did just mean the files are in place < on the disk. Didn't know that there was an exact translationG for 'install'. I'm more of a unix buff then a vms one, so I hope you'lln forgive the smilies ;&>.  E And btw, I _will_ read the 'help install'. A closed mind is after alli
 an empty one!    --  ( >- THKS  %^>p+  /~\  Uncle Jeff (get rid of JUNK to email) % |  \) Jeff.HowieJUNK@JUNKfederated.cat+  \_|_ Linux, the choice of a GNU generation-     Sent via Deja.com  http://www.deja.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2001 23:04 CST:' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e3 Subject: Re: [VIM] VMS version doesn't do logicals?i- Message-ID: <30JAN200123042241@gerg.tamu.edu>   . Uncle Jeff <jeff.howie@federated.ca> writes...* }  Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org> wrote:& }> On 5 Shevat 5761, Uncle Jeff wrote: }>E }> >> if vim is not a symbol, then it is a installed as a command and  }thusa! }> >> you can't do much about it.  }> >D }> > Yes, vim is an installed program. I should know, I installed itH }> > myself! ;&>. I know the problem is with the program itself, becauseE }> > other programs, like the tpu editor, translate the logicals just> }fine. }>F }> Just to clarify:  "install" doesn't just mean "the executable is on }theC }> disk and its files are in place" in VMS lingo.  If you knew thisiE }> already, then I apologize; if not, you might try "help install" toe+ }> verify what you said you know.  *smiles*2 } F }OK, you caught me on that one. I did just mean the files are in place= }on the disk. Didn't know that there was an exact translationpH }for 'install'. I'm more of a unix buff then a vms one, so I hope you'll }forgive the smilies ;&>.d } F }And btw, I _will_ read the 'help install'. A closed mind is after all }an empty one! }--c } ( >- THKS  %^>, } /~\  Uncle Jeff (get rid of JUNK to email)  G ACtually, the sense of "install" as in "installed as a command" doesn't>F have anything to do with the INSTALL command either. It has more to do with SET COMMAND...n   --- Carl   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.061 ************************