1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 03 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 366       Contents:A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ ! Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows + Access port information from an FTP session + Re: Apache CGI Problems on VMS with TCPware P Re: BY PRIVATE INVITATION ONLY: CONFIDENTIAL: R.S.V.P. TO CONFIRM RECEIPT RECEIP Re: Compaq kills Alpha$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window? CSWS 1.1 & TCPware Re: CSWS 1.1 & TCPware Re: CSWS 1.1 & TCPware* CSWS/Apache userdir and SSI config problem! Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS + FS: PrintServer 32 Plus (Sydney, Australia)   RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.! Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture * Re: Hobby LIcense: One USER, or one LOGIN?* Re: Hobby LIcense: One USER, or one LOGIN?, How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a day0 Re: How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a day0 Re: How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a day I didn't stick it upside down!" Re: I didn't stick it upside down!" Re: I didn't stick it upside down!P ia64 possiblities -- was Re: May thet rot in hell, this will never be finished n Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: KZMSA support on VAX 7710  RE: KZMSA support on VAX 7710  Re: KZMSA support on VAX 7710  Re: Mozilla 9.0 on 7.3 Re: MSA and VMS 7.3  MSA and VMS 7.3  Re: MSA and VMS 7.3  Re: MSA and VMS 7.3  Re: MSA and VMS 7.3 / Re: OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture) - Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE - Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE - Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE - Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE  Re: owner of a file  Re: owner of a file  Re: owner of a file  Re: owner of a file > Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms> Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms> Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms> Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms$ Re: QBus TK50 controller -- got one?$ Re: QBus TK50 controller -- got one? Re: Qlogic question  Re: Question to Charlie Matco.> Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgradeB Re: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgradeB Re: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgrade Re: Sadness  Re: Server up? Re: Some Questions About Backup  Re: Some Questions About Backup  Re: Some Questions About Backup  Re: Some Questions About Backup  Re: Some Questions About Backup  Re: Some Questions About Backup . Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD2 RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD2 Re: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD2 RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD2 RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD. Symposium: CETS-2001 content development input3 Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format 7 Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format 7 Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format ' Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business! ' Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business!  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid  Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated  Re: to 7.3 from 6.2  UPS for AlphaServer 2100A  UPS for AlphaServer 2100A  VAX 11/78x running anywhere? VAX 4000-106 qbus pinout Re: vax 4000/90  Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? RE: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? RE: VMS 7.3 experiences? RE: VMS 7.3 experiences?# Re: VMS installation Probs from CD. ( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on UltraSparc? Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)# Re: What about performance issues?? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  Re: What is lockstep ? What is lockstep ?+ Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either ! Re: Why VMS on IA64 will succeed? % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS $ Re: Write record to accounting file?$ Re: Write record to accounting file?/ Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS ! ZT virtual tape driver for tcp/ip K [FREEWARE] MAILBOX 0.7 : MIME-enabled user-friendly mail client for OpenVMS P Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?P Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:21:59 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com, Message-ID: <3B40F407.42FE8540@infopuls.com>   Osmo Kujala wrote: > , > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > ... O > > OpenVMS is a server op system.  It needs a good web server, middleware, etc  > > !  > > It is not to play MP3 !  > L > Rubbish! VMS is good for PC, workstation, server etc. . It has exceptionalG > features for workstation work as for server work too. For example now H > there is rising need for home PC which run easily and reliably "server5 > runs" and can be easily clustered (diskless maybe).  > 	 > regards  >          Osmo Kujala > H > P.S. Can't keep up to date reading this forum. Folks, please keep away, > discussion of waether, politics, cars etc.  9 Thanks, I will follow this guidline closely until the 100 ! messages per day line is reached.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:33:32 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> : Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+) Message-ID: <3B41BB9B.B896E94B@gtech.com>    Alphaman wrote: 7 > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message % > news:3B3B237B.73B7CBEA@gtech.com... / > > I am sure that VMS will be ported to IA-64.  > > , > > [I am much more doubtfull about Tru64 !] > M > Actually, Tru64 is a little ahead of OpenVMS -- expect developer's kits for M > Tru64 at the end of 2002; for OpenVMS, the beginning of 2003.  (Think of it ( > like OpenVMS Alpha v1.0/1.5, I guess.)   That is the plan.   C But consider the business perspectives. There will be a lot of OS's @ for Itanium. To get a market share you will either have to offer	 something F unique feature-wise or be very cheap. VMS is not cheap. But I do think thatG there will not be any other OS on Itanium "like" VMS. Tru64 will not be E cheap either. And I can not really see, what should distinguish Tru64 C from the many other Unix flavours on Itanium. With that perspective ) the Tru64-Linux affinity may make sense !   L > Don't forget, CSA membership and _site-wide_ SDK is MUCH cheaper than just" > ONE single-user MSDN membership.  H Now - I have never believed that system/development-tools prices had any) significant impact on support from ISV's.    Arne'    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:20:37 -0400+ From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> : Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well++ Message-ID: <9hsntt$m8l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message # news:3B41BB9B.B896E94B@gtech.com...  > Alphaman wrote: I > > Don't forget, CSA membership and _site-wide_ SDK is MUCH cheaper than  just$ > > ONE single-user MSDN membership. > J > Now - I have never believed that system/development-tools prices had any+ > significant impact on support from ISV's.   H That depends on the ISV. For a small ISV, costs of development tools and? platforms can determine whether they support a platform at all.    --
 John Saunders  jws@ma.ultranet.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:18:05 +0200 & From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si>: Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+( Message-ID: <3B41FE4D.582DF76D@aster.si>  : C'mon, Arne. Did you read about clustering on Tru64 v5.1a?7 Did you try v5.1? They have lot inherited from the VMS.   6 Bob, working on Tru64, but VMS lover since VAX/VMS 1.5       Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > Alphaman wrote: 9 > > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message ' > > news:3B3B237B.73B7CBEA@gtech.com... 1 > > > I am sure that VMS will be ported to IA-64.  > > > . > > > [I am much more doubtfull about Tru64 !] > > O > > Actually, Tru64 is a little ahead of OpenVMS -- expect developer's kits for O > > Tru64 at the end of 2002; for OpenVMS, the beginning of 2003.  (Think of it * > > like OpenVMS Alpha v1.0/1.5, I guess.) >  > That is the plan.  > E > But consider the business perspectives. There will be a lot of OS's B > for Itanium. To get a market share you will either have to offer > something H > unique feature-wise or be very cheap. VMS is not cheap. But I do think > thatI > there will not be any other OS on Itanium "like" VMS. Tru64 will not be G > cheap either. And I can not really see, what should distinguish Tru64 E > from the many other Unix flavours on Itanium. With that perspective + > the Tru64-Linux affinity may make sense !  > N > > Don't forget, CSA membership and _site-wide_ SDK is MUCH cheaper than just$ > > ONE single-user MSDN membership. > J > Now - I have never believed that system/development-tools prices had any+ > significant impact on support from ISV's.  >  > Arne'    --  @  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329 ?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201 @  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:38:53 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> * Subject: Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows) Message-ID: <3B41BCDD.D10E2177@gtech.com>    David Mathog wrote: J > So if Intel's trying to get serious by pumping up the Itanium with AlphaK > developers and (maybe) techonology, shouldn't MS get serious by making it G > possible to run without the Windows GUI in Windows 2003, at least for K > enterprise usage?  And if they do so, aren't they pretty much back to the 2 > bits of VMS they based NT on in the first place?    You forget the marketing aspect.  @ This is what a few technical people undrstands. But the managers@ with authority to approve huge servers know the Windows GUI. And> I really think that the MS sales people being able to show the@ big bosses something the big bosses understand gives them a huge
 advantage.  D It is not the best technical systems that will win. It is the system that sells best !    Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 03 Jul 2001 17:11:45 GMT From: bart@CTI01.COMVERSE.COM 4 Subject: Access port information from an FTP session2 Message-ID: <3b41fcd1$0$9025@wodc7nh1.news.uu.net>  @ 	I would like to obtain access port information in the LOGIN.COMG file invoked by an FTP connection (UCX V4.2) similar to that obtainable N with the TT_ACCPORNAM argument to f$getdvi for interactive sessions associatedH with a terminal (telnet, etc.). Is there a magic combination of f$getdviI or f$getjpi arguments (or anything else for that matter) that will return / this information in an FTP connection context ? E 	Basically, I find the UCX SET COMM/reject= functionality insuficient J for my needs and would like to do some rejecting based on my inspection of" the domain name of the originator. 					Steve Bart    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:42:21 GMT ' From: Tom Rataski <trataski@clwcpc.com> 4 Subject: Re: Apache CGI Problems on VMS with TCPware8 Message-ID: <pss3ktgcle58gkh2etb3jhjrgeld2iveig@4ax.com>  D On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:55:40 +0200, martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote:  ) >Tom Rataski (trataski@clwcpc.com) wrote: B >> Has anyone successfully gotten Apache CGI to work with TCPware? > F >My Perl scripts are doing well with CSWS_PERL. Didn't yet try command) >procedures, executable images, and JAVA.  > E >I must admit that I don't quite understand what the choice of TCP/IP  >stack has to do with CGI. > . >> We are running OpenVMS 7.2 w/TCPware V5.3-2 > J >OpenVMS 7.2-1H1, CSWS 1.0-1 (on the way to update to 1.1), TCPware 5.4-3. >  >cu,	 >  Martin    Martin, @ For some reason it does seem to make a difference... on two likeF systems I can get the cgi .coms/.exes to work on one that has  TCPwareB 5.4-3 installed, but it refuses to work on the system with TCPwareE 5.3-2. I get server errors and the error_log file states that the com C or exe terminated with "premature end of script". One other thing -  perl seems to work just fine.    Thanks for your comments   -TomR-   ---  Tom Rataski 
 LTV Steel Co.  Computer Process Control trataski at clwcpc dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:28:35 -0400 # From: Jim Agnew <Agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> Y Subject: Re: BY PRIVATE INVITATION ONLY: CONFIDENTIAL: R.S.V.P. TO CONFIRM RECEIPT RECEIP + Message-ID: <3B407703.53EE95CD@hsc.vcu.edu>   E this page tried to access my computer, blocked by ZoneAlarm... BEWARE    Alex@GrandEnigma.com.hk wrote:   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 00:15:06 -0400 4 From: shannon@daydream.shannon.net (Shannon Hendrix) Subject: Re: Compaq kills Alpha:/ Message-ID: <9hrgsa$r2d$1@daydream.shannon.net>a  3 In article <dMMtXzcFsq80@eisner.encompasserve.org>,p: Bob Kaplow <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote:d > In article <H34_6.256744$Z2.3011370@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Chris Moore" <chris.moore@stelco.ca> writes:F > > Bob should be picking the stuff up in a Honda Prelude instead of aN > > Civic.....Honda announced today that they're killing THAT too!! (delicious
 > > irony) > M > That's been expected for a while. Honda did kill off the hatchback models IeM > really wanted, leaving me stuck with a coupe and cursing if I want to stickp6 > something the size of an Alpha 2100 box in the back. > L > But it's not as if Honda sold the Prelude to Toyota who killed it to forceJ > us to by Celicas. And there were no other choices of cars but those two.  @ Well, it _is_ hard to get any hatchbacks in the US these days...       -- e1 "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." -- UnknownA   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:13:50 -0400e- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>e- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence ( Message-ID: <3B41B6FE.4F92C1BE@ohio.edu>  e If you can go CISC1 to RISC, then worst case for execution on CISC2 would be to do CISC1 to a sub-settc of CISC2 that looks like RISC.  Won't take advantage of the CISC capabilities, but will get the jobi done.   #                                 RDPO     Bob Koehler wrote:  d > In article <3B374ED2.31A45094@hiyall.zko.dec.com>, John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> writes: > >tL > > Huh?  Go look at the listings CDROMs and you'll see the majority (if notL > > a majority, then a very large portion) of device drivers (and many otherL > > things in OpenVMS) still written in MACRO-32.  Beyond MACRO-32, there isL > > considerable BLISS code which might not qualify has a "HLL" depending on > > your point of view...s > >o > J > IMHO BLISS is high enough that it will only need tweaking.  But Macro-32J > port to IA-64 may not be as simple as it was on ALpha.  It's not to hardD > to see Macro-32 as a compilable language where one VAX instructionF > represents one or more RISC instructions, but how RISCy is IA-64?  IH > assume Intel wants good old Pentium code to run somehow on IA-64 whichD > drags in a lot of CISC heritage, and CISC to CISC won't quite map. >gH > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationC? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupCG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:13:55 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64uL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011213560001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VoijvijMo5Qv@localhost>,u. djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote:  0 > On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:12:24, Vance Haemmerle $ > <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> wrote:  J > >   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionL > > was that data files could stay the same even though the executables wereI > > different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it's iI > > almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really beCH > > emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofK > > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going tos# > > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?h > G > Well this is something that would/will complicate the lives of those  H > people who gather information with Vax (We still use ELN) and display E > it on VMS. It works perfectly now with no IF/ELSE/ENDIFS in sight. hH > This implies one reason that iVMS will _not_ be compile and go, as it # > was, for the most part, on Alpha.h  I I expect we'll see some level of emulation of VAX floats on IPF.  Getting G _exact_ IEEE emulation (which is what Java want) on VAX proved hard and4< slow.  VAX emulation on IPF should be reasonably fast, and aB not-quite-perfect  emulation shouldn't require heroic effort.  (ByF not-quite-perfect, I mean the LSB might not be exactly VAXish in every? case.)  More work for the folks at Compaq, but apparently still  compile-and-go for you.   D If VAX floating-point conformance is important to you, do you expectA anyone _besides_ compaq to provide it in some other environment?  J Charon-VAX, perhaps, but you'd still have to licence VMS and run it on the	 emulator.e   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:49:29 +0200e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>l% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64n, Message-ID: <3B40FA79.4201CC83@infopuls.com>   Vance Haemmerle wrote: >  > Duane Sand wrote:  > >M3 > > The chances of Intel adding Vax format is zero.3K > > And you don't want systems built out of special-order customized chips.EE > > You want systems built from the same high-volume pool of chips as  > > everyone else that year.4 > > So Vax fp will need to be done by some software. > H >   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionJ > was that data files could stay the same even though the executables wereF > different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it'sG > almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really be F > emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofI > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going too! > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?n >  > --D > Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USM > Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/l  > The is a chance that the other migration direction i.e. from a8 slower CPU to a faster one would make an emulation in SW acceptable.e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 06:04:55 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-SjfQKDvd0FZD@localhost>   ? On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:13:55, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert t Deininger) wrote:t  7 > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VoijvijMo5Qv@localhost>,s0 > djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote: > 	 ..snip...   M > > > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going ton% > > > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?  > > I > > Well this is something that would/will complicate the lives of those oJ > > people who gather information with Vax (We still use ELN) and display G > > it on VMS. It works perfectly now with no IF/ELSE/ENDIFS in sight. oJ > > This implies one reason that iVMS will _not_ be compile and go, as it % > > was, for the most part, on Alpha.  > K > I expect we'll see some level of emulation of VAX floats on IPF.  GettingnI > _exact_ IEEE emulation (which is what Java want) on VAX proved hard and0> > slow.  VAX emulation on IPF should be reasonably fast, and aD > not-quite-perfect  emulation shouldn't require heroic effort.  (ByH > not-quite-perfect, I mean the LSB might not be exactly VAXish in everyA > case.)  More work for the folks at Compaq, but apparently still- > compile-and-go for you.  > F > If VAX floating-point conformance is important to you, do you expectC > anyone _besides_ compaq to provide it in some other environment? oL > Charon-VAX, perhaps, but you'd still have to licence VMS and run it on the > emulator.p  D No I don't and, now that its hard to get Alpha/VME cards, less than C ever. As I hoped to imply, IA-64 actually provides an opportunity.  F Lets hope its not an 'insurmountable' one. There are a lot of ELN/VME C based systems about. Not that many people changed to Alpha 'cos it sF meant going to VxWorks as well. Now even that segment of the market isF losing out. I realise that Aerospace is not important to Mr. Capellas,F IIRC, but the time-frame for introducing iVMS might tie in with people@ needing to replace/upgrade. It all comes down to Compaq and its 
 credibility.    E If I have to change the VME based test server from a Dec/Compaq base lF then there'll be less reason to keep the VMS client on Compaq as well.F Having said that, we're just small shop and have no real clout. We didF have the largest cluster in Germany, so I'm told, but that was mainly D due to the AlphaStation  200's on everyone's desk. They're all gone B now. NCD's served by Solaris, which runs our next generation s/w,   ADA95 in a Rational environment.   -- 7 Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:45:49 +0100m0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?s* Message-ID: <3B41A25D.6AA01DA3@uk.sun.com>   "T. S. Murphy" wrote:  > 6 > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message2 > news:tIjZ6.61$yy2.49786@news20.bellglobal.com... > L > > While it is true that Intel has abandoned their own projects in the pastN > > (anybody remember the iAPX-432 cancelled in 1983?) I'm not sure they wouldN > > cancel IA-64. Since IA-64 has been over-hyped and Alpha under-hyped (underD > > marketed?), Intel could easily "save face" by just letting Alpha > technologyA > > slowly sink into the history books with the "Avro Arrow" etc.  > G > I think you will find historically that Intel has very little problem N > cancelling projects. There are so many high profile projects which have beenG > cancelled, in addition to many more internal projects which have beenoM > cancelled before the public knew about them. Remember: Intel was founded to J > do DRAM and only DRAM, and completely exited that business fifteen yearsM > ago. Intel is a pragmatic company, and won't let its own pride stand in its  > way. > H > Is Merced an exception? I don't think so. I think Intel still stronglyN > believes that IA-64 is the best way to achieve their migration to 64 bits. II > think Alpha is out of the picture simply and solely because it does notKJ > support IA-32. I think Intel would be crazy to replace IA-64 with Alpha.    3 Intels strength is the investment it has got ISV's r/ including MS to make in its architecture IA-32,m* its whole IA-64 project reflects the need . to move forward while retaining IA-32 support.  . It has also locked major systems vendors such * as HP and IBM into its motherboard and bus architectures.  0 While one could run IA-32 code in emulation mode0 on Alpha Intel would then be totally cucified by" AMD from a performance standpoint.  1 Alpha would also not be a drop in replacement for.1 IA-64 or IA-32 CPU's in the systems architecturesu- currently being delivered by Intel customers.   - As you said Intel would be mad to drop IA-64 r- AMD on the other hand would make a much more  ( interesting Alpha owner and you would be) able to drop Alpha processors into their ." platform architecture more easily.   RegardsB Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectw   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:55:31 +02006) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B4109F3.5F7123CF@infopuls.com>   Kevin Martin wrote:n > d > paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote in message news:<01K5B98ENC0I001I0D@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>...B > > >Any idea when OpenVMS will be sold to Computer Associates ;-) > > Q > > The sheer idea of you suggesting this in our troubled times.  Will you inviteb# > > me to your parent's wedding :-)  > >i > > Regards, Paddy > G > As soon as my mother finds out who my father is, we'll invite you :-)i > F > Seriously what's the big deal. I've been working with VMS since 1984G > and I think it is the best OS by far. But the writing has been on theiA > wall for years about ALPHA, It's costs a fortune to develop andpH > manufacture new CPU's and you have to have volume to make money, ALPHA > never had volume.   : The same holds for SW. When will Compaq decide to drop VMS5 because the volume isn't that high to justify further  investment?   F > I bailed from VMS in 1996 and took up TRU64, Looks like I'll have to! > be an ORACLE/LINUX geek now :-(    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:30:16 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?-) Message-ID: <3B4120BB.38BAA83D@wi.rr.com>0   mulp wrote:8  N > Here's an interesting point to consider.  There are customers today that areM > buying CI adapters and HSJ80s when logic would seem to dictate buying Fibre L > Channel.  Guess what, they have applications that only run on VAX, so theyN > need to keep VAXen in the cluster and the only way to share the data betweenB > the VAX and Alpha systems at the I/O rate required is to use CI.  N Why can't you use a fibre solution and MSCP-serve the disks to the VAXen whichP are running the applications?  With a little bit of planning, I'm sure you couldD come up with a solution that would provide the needed I/O bandwidth.  L > What are the chances that there will be VAX, Alpha, and IA64 clusters.  InM > fact, I doubt that there would even be Alpha and IA64 clusters at all.  TheiL > resources wouldn't be there to port the current cluster port drivers or toI > write new ones for Infiniband or something that would work on Alpha, sosI > there would be no way to cluster Alpha and IA64 VMS systems except over M > Ethernet.  And at high I/O rates, the performance loss of 1500 byte packetsfN > processed a byte at a time would make any mixed architecture cluster performN > much worse that Alpha alone.  No matter how cheap IA64 was, it wouldn't makeN > sense to add IA64 nodes to a cluster if the overall performance was going to
 > go down.  5 1) Clustering works over FDDI with 4468-byte packets.   P 2) Fibre channel will probably be a cluster interconnect in the future.  I don'tO think we're stuck with just ethernet for cluster comms between an OpenVMS Alphae and OpenVMS Intel system.y  
 -Scott :^)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:58:10 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? * Message-ID: <3B41A542.FB8EC1C9@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:2 >  > Christof Brass wrote:t< > > Do you really trust the people at Compaq? Are there some@ > > decisions of strategic importance lately that show that this? > > company is acting according to a well thought through plan?. > K > Compaq has developped a privileged relationship with Microsoft. They wereHJ > alone to support MS during antitrust trial. And they succeeded in makingP > PocketPc a success where others had previously failed, giving Compaq a certainK > amount of time of exclusive licensing for PocektPc for keyboardless PDAs.t >   B Actually HP have exactly the same ageement with MS over PocketPC. < Compaq have just done a better job of developing a PocketPC 6 device, the iPaq is a better device than the Jornado.   ? MS rewarded both HP and Compaq because they were the staunchestf supporters of WinCE.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonc Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:32:28 GMTi1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>r1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?i2 Message-ID: <3B41F48D.102E623F@clarityconnect.com>  E Well this will be very dependent on all the Fibre players agreeing on C the way to do host-host communication which they have not shown any G inclination in doing.  It may happen but it will be some time before it1 does happen.   Scott Vieth wrote:  R > 2) Fibre channel will probably be a cluster interconnect in the future.  I don'tQ > think we're stuck with just ethernet for cluster comms between an OpenVMS Alpha  > and OpenVMS Intel system.b >  > -Scott :^)   -- WD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:30:53 GMTp. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?a; Message-ID: <1Wi07.34540$P5.9687529@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>u  D Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:t$OY720dA3f9@eisner.encompasserve.org...AL > In article <9hlbj6$keb@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:I > > It would be nice if once Q managements' eyes stop spinning they could K > > clarify the repercussions on the hobbyist and education programs of the . > > sale of their compiler divisions to Intel. >tD > Where does it say that "compiler divisions" will be sold to Intel.B > Everything I have read indicates Intel will be getting GEM, with( > Compaq still making the VMS compilers.  C Yuh, GEM is a jewel.  I can understand how some folks would get the-D impression that "Alpha technology and engineering" would include GEMC software plus compiler people.  Perhaps this needs to be clarified.i  I I can see where Intel would need the GEM backend, and the Q (and other OS I mfg's) would need specific frontends.  However, the question then becomesuF does Q pay Inhel royalties for the backend?  If so, does that kill anyC ability to include the compilers in the free kits (hobbyist, etc.)?   E And those, kiddies, are only questions we can speculate on right now,@K because NOBODY has the answer to things not yet built.  But keep asking the I hard questions so that the Q can generate the right answers as they build 
 the products.   . Back from a mind-numbing reprieve from c.o.v., Aaronh --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/; "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by >  spice of the bean the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire8  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine   alone I set my mind in motion."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:03:48 +0200< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> Subject: CSWS 1.1 & TCPwareo4 Message-ID: <9hs8pc$fg93l$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Hi,a  - has anyone got CSWS 1.1 to work with TCPware?t  J At first I suspected some interaction with the 1.0-1 config files, but nowI I'm experiencing the same errors with a fresh install: the error_log says   D Import shared translation (APACHE$SHARED_SOCKET) status: 444, max: 0# import of shared socket failed: 444r? [Tue Jul  3 09:04:12 2001] [crit] (48)address already in use  :=)     make_sock: could not bind to port 443P  7 The same messages appear with port 80 if I disable SSL.r   Environment: OpenVMS 7.2-1H1 A   w/ECOs ACRTL V1.0, LIBRTL V1.0, RMS V2.0, SYS V1.0, UPDATE V3.0a
 TCPware 5.4-3 B   w/ECOs DRIVERS V5.1, FTP V1.6, NAMED V3.3, NETCP V1.0, SMTP V6.0  J I defined all TCPIP$* logicals (/SYSTEM/EXEC) to match the UCX$* logicals.    Thanks in advance for any clues.   cu,e   Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deo One OS to bring them all      | ( http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 06:44:10 -0500 (CDT)i& From: Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org> Subject: Re: CSWS 1.1 & TCPware - Message-ID: <01K5HHRJPCQK0085M5@SEMATECH.Org>a  ; Martin Vorlaender <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote: . >has anyone got CSWS 1.1 to work with TCPware?  H Yes.  The server runs, but we're still working out some script problems./ Our environment is VMS 7.1-2 and TCPware 5.4-3.s  K >At first I suspected some interaction with the 1.0-1 config files, but now/J >I'm experiencing the same errors with a fresh install: the error_log says  E >Import shared translation (APACHE$SHARED_SOCKET) status: 444, max: 0i$ >import of shared socket failed: 444@ >[Tue Jul  3 09:04:12 2001] [crit] (48)address already in use  :* >    make_sock: could not bind to port 443  8 >The same messages appear with port 80 if I disable SSL.  
 >Environment:e >OpenVMS 7.2-1H1B >  w/ECOs ACRTL V1.0, LIBRTL V1.0, RMS V2.0, SYS V1.0, UPDATE V3.0 >TCPware 5.4-3C >  w/ECOs DRIVERS V5.1, FTP V1.6, NAMED V3.3, NETCP V1.0, SMTP V6.0t  K >I defined all TCPIP$* logicals (/SYSTEM/EXEC) to match the UCX$* logicals.a  J I saw exactly the same messages, and I also tried disabling SSL.  I had toJ grant SYSPRV to APACHE$WWW to get it to work, but since I'm not running itH in production yet and there is supposedly a fix, I'm not too bothered byI that.  The "fix" is supposed to be DRIVERS 5.1, which I haven't installednI yet because it requires a reboot.  The fact that you've already installedmK that patch and it still doesn't work is rather discouraging.  Please let us:& know if you get a resolution for this.  G The only TCPIP$ logical I had to define was TCPIP$DEVICE to UCX$DEVICE.F  
 Good luck! Drew  L ============================================================================6 Drew Shelton                         drew@sematech.org9 VMS Systems Manager                  office: 512-356-7575E9 Sematech                             fax:    512-356-7600  2706 Montopolis DriveoK Austin, TX 78741-6499                I speak for myself only, not Sematech. B     "OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"I                                                         - Compaq, 9/22/98 L ============================================================================   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:24:49 +0200< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> Subject: Re: CSWS 1.1 & TCPwaren4 Message-ID: <9hski9$flpb1$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Drew Shelton wrote...n< >Martin Vorlaender <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote:F >>Import shared translation (APACHE$SHARED_SOCKET) status: 444, max: 0% >>import of shared socket failed: 444 A >>[Tue Jul  3 09:04:12 2001] [crit] (48)address already in use  :C+ >>    make_sock: could not bind to port 443  > K >I saw exactly the same messages, and I also tried disabling SSL.  I had toM. >grant SYSPRV to APACHE$WWW to get it to work,  E Thanks for the idea - but even with a fully privileged APACHE$WWW I'm- getting the same error.   F I'm amazed that the account in 1.1 is setup with just (NETMBX,TMPMBX).1 CSWS 1.0 installed it with a lot more privileges.v  F Some more info: Even a full user audit didn't turn up anything besides  + Auditable event:          Privilege failureeK Event information:        SYSNAM not used to create inner-mode logical name    (DEFINE/EXEC, $CRELNM)1 Event time:                3-JUL-2001 15:35:14.78e" PID:                      208001DC# Process name:             APACHE$00N$ Username:                 APACHE$WWW/ Process owner:            [AP_HTTPD,APACHE$WWW]o/ Logical name:             LNM$TEMPORARY_MAILBOX_  Privileges missing:       SYSNAM     <sigh>  F I'll probably go and twist the account quotas - but EXQUOTA would have' shown up in the audit log, wouldn't it?E   cu,a   Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.dei One OS to bring them all      |t( http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 04:59:32 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")3 Subject: CSWS/Apache userdir and SSI config problemi8 Message-ID: <009FE6CA.BCD24DAE@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   Comp.os.vmsers --i  G I posted about this last weekend, but it may have gotten buried in the E Alpha/Itanium storm.  	 CSWS T1.1d5 OpenVMS 7.2-1 (all current patches that I know about)e= Multinet 4.3  (with the patch that CSWS is supposed to need.)/ Server running AlphaServer 800.a  I I'm trying to make everything that works under OSU in another node in the H cluster work under Apache/CSWS, before exploring additional capabilities- of Apache.  This is mostly going pretty well.   F Server-side Includes (SSI) work on Apache when they come from the main/ directory tree, whether named .shtml or .htmlx.   N Userdirs work on Apache; ~username gets you to the [.WWW] subdirectory of thatN user's sys$login.  ([.WWW] to match OSU's userdirs; it's not the default.  The- disk is ODS-5, if that makes any difference.)e  G .shtml or .htmlx files that are in userdirs don't work, or at least theuI processing doesn't work.  (The files are served as html, but the SSI tags'J aren't filled in.  These are things like "echo var=LAST_MODIFIED", nothingG that requires running a separate program.)  Copy the same files to the -+ main directory tree, and SSI works on them.0  K I see that I must specify that includes are allowed for that directory, andR I think I'm doing that.t  ! Here's an excerpt from httpd.conf.   #DI # UserDir: The name of the directory which is appended onto a user's homet+ # directory if a ~user request is received.. #8 UserDir wwwg #a <Directory www> +     AllowOverride FileInfo AuthConfig LimitiB     Options MultiViews Indexes SymLinksIfOwnerMatch IncludesNoExec%     <Limit GET POST OPTIONS PROPFIND>          Order allow,deny         Allow from all     </Limit>B     <Limit PUT DELETE PATCH PROPPATCH MKCOL COPY MOVE LOCK UNLOCK>         Order deny,allow         Deny from alln     </Limit> </Directory>    K (This is a straight copy of the example in the httpd.conf file.  I've also yD tried this with Includes instead of IncludesNoExec and various otherK combinations.  The files are served but the SSIs aren't processed.) Nothingo1 interesting shows up in access_log. or error_log.i   What am I doing wrong?     Thanks,f   -- Alan         O ===============================================================================i0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210gO ===============================================================================s   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 12:29:41 -0700a- From: merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt)e* Subject: Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem= Message-ID: <b6bf97d5.0107021129.6d303b6a@posting.google.com>e  # Thanks, all that info did the trick ) I am able to boot of my IDE cd no problemk. and run my backup/restore software that talks  to a "Tiviol" back up server h   thanks again guysn    " $ LD CREATE SYSDSK.DSK/SIZ=1299968 $ CONNECT SYSDSK.DSK LDA100e $ MOUNT/FOREIGN LDA100: 7 $ BACKUP/IMAGE/NOALIAS/IGNORE=INTERLOCK DKA100: LDA100: : $! where DKA100 is the system disk that I want to back up. $! $ DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD LDA100:n $ MOUNT/OVER=IDENT LDA100: $ MC SYSGENu' USE LDA100:[SYS0.SYSEXE]ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR  SET WLKSYSDSK 1h
 WRITE CURRENTaL $ Copy dka0:[sys0.sysexe]ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR LDA100:[SYS0.SYSEXE]ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR $ MC SYSGENt' USE LDA100:[SYS0.SYSEXE]ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR. SET WLKSYSDSK 0r WRITE CURRENT  $ DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD LDA100:- $ LD DISCONN LDA100:   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:20:57 GMTsB From: bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr (BERTRAND =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=EBl?=) Subject: Re: FreeVMS6 Message-ID: <slrn9k2si7.dtc.bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr>  " Le Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:30:21 +0200. Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> crivait :? >I don't agree. If there is a good project structure this couldm) >be done. The design is already there ...d  : 	I'm looking for someone that can help me for this design.  	 	Regards,t   	JKB   --  E Et jattends avec angoisse larrive ici du gus et la cration -- quis@ sensuivra fatalement -- de  la Liste typo canal hystrique  ?= -- JDR in guide du typographe pervers : tout se radicalise...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:23:27 +0200r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B40F45F.33431BF8@infopuls.com>   Brendan Welch wrote: > C > > This is music in my ears but I don't have the chance to get thep@ > > source because it's not available for someone without credit	 > > card.  > F > I hear that the source code of VMS, on microfiche, is up for auction+ > on Ebay.  (Some older version, I presume)- > --G > Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell, W1LPGs  @ Many thanks but I don't have a microfiche reader either. I would? need it in VMS text format readable by the DECTPU based editor.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:25:50 +0200e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>c Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B40F4EE.F0C26344@infopuls.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > W > In article <3B3B27F1.8ACAF17F@uml.edu>, Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes:b > >nD > >> This is music in my ears but I don't have the chance to get theA > >> source because it's not available for someone without credite
 > >> card. > > H > > I hear that the source code of VMS, on microfiche, is up for auction- > > on Ebay.  (Some older version, I presume)t > 2 > Perhaps the poster wanted to acquire it legally. > F > We buy it from Compaq without a credit card, in case the credit card( > phrase was not an allusion to pricing.  > I was a reference to the unability to order things from Compaq; because the only payment is credit card. IIRC Terry Kennedym: replied that the price is serveral 100.- US$ which is very acceptable.A  = I don't regard an auction as illegal source if the licence isI transferrable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:29:24 +0200k) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B40F5C4.2542A0F1@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:6 > = > In article <3B3A477F.5F20A8AC@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassd > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:r > ? > > COBOL is dead although there is an oo version which is very ; > > appreciated by the COBOL programmers I know personally.c > K > I don't think Cobol is even close to dead.  But I'm not a Cobol intimate,eH > it might have died while I wasn't looking.  I wonder why I see so many > Cobol job postings.0 >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comc  7 This might be different in our area. The only COBOL job36 offerings I heard about were to migrate the SW to some? client/server system written in completely different languages.p  ? I'm sad about the death of Alpha and especially for the droppeda EV8 with SMT. :*-(   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:30:21 +0200q) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B40F5FD.2DABE74D@infopuls.com>   Joshua Harding wrote:  > N > FreeVMS could and _never_ would take off because VMS was engineered from theK > beginning, instead of evolving, such as Linux or Windows. The Open SourceDM > community seems eminently capable of developing 1,000 Mp3 players, web mail J > interfaces and screensavers, but are clearly not capable (or wanting) to2 > write an operating system comparable to OpenVMS. > > > "BERTRAND Jol" <bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr> wrote in message2 > news:slrn9iutga.ii9.bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr... > > Good morning,- > >-: > > I have seen an old project named FreeVMS. Its goal was> > > to clone VMS with a Gnu Public Licence. This project seems= > > to be dead. So I research anyone that has time to restart8 > > this project.o > >. > > Regards, > >i > > JKBy > >nF > > PS: I have some troubles with my news server, so you probably find > > another post. Sorry...  > I don't agree. If there is a good project structure this could( be done. The design is already there ...   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 18:37:14 -0500c9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)s Subject: Re: FreeVMS3 Message-ID: <CufwfKRCSRux@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3B40F4EE.F0C26344@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> oX >> In article <3B3B27F1.8ACAF17F@uml.edu>, Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes: >> >E >> >> This is music in my ears but I don't have the chance to get the B >> >> source because it's not available for someone without credit >> >> card.u >> >I >> > I hear that the source code of VMS, on microfiche, is up for auctions. >> > on Ebay.  (Some older version, I presume) >> m3 >> Perhaps the poster wanted to acquire it legally.p >> rG >> We buy it from Compaq without a credit card, in case the credit cardc) >> phrase was not an allusion to pricing.@ > @ > I was a reference to the unability to order things from Compaq= > because the only payment is credit card. IIRC Terry Kennedyf< > replied that the price is serveral 100.- US$ which is very
 > acceptable.o > ? > I don't regard an auction as illegal source if the licence iso > transferrable.  & Source licenses are not transferrable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:40:31 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B40F85F.1086F169@infopuls.com>   John Eisenschmidt wrote: > 7> Microfocus has done some amazing things with COBOL compilers, but I was being flip there. COBOL does what it does very very well, but it's specialized (just like Fortran). If they could have written Unix in Fortran they would have, but Richie and Kerrigan felt there was a need for a general purpose language.l  = With the Fortran at that time important things wasn't able to ? do, so Fortan would certainly have been the wrong choice. But Ct was the wrong choice either.  !> I think people are entitled to their opinions, and I think VMS was done right for its time - it was written in many different languagues. But AT&T took a big step when they wrote Unix - except for pieces written in ASM it was done entirely in C. Most of the Unix clones are the same way.a  > Having one (1) not so low-level language and a small number of3 parts in low-lever (ASM) is a major step forward in > productivity, portability and quality. But it is far from what@ could have been achieved with the right tools. C isn't the right? tool in any circumstances, *technically*. If you're starting on2? green grounds you should choose good tools. If the history of ap? project contains a lot of mistakenly decisions, viola you might$? end up using C. But doing the wrong thing in the first place is. an incredible stupid thing.t  ;> Now, Unix and VMS are roughly the same age. Given the current install base, who has weathered the test of time? I think both Unix and VMS have done remarkably well, and I think they lost some comrads on along the way (RSX-11, OS/2 as we mentioned earlier this week). Most of the IBM stuff has weathered the storm.e  @ I don't see your point. Are you technically oriented? BTW VMS is= 10 years younger and 100 times better than UNIX .... (replaceM> the four dots with a strong pejorative four letter word, thank? you for flying with Anti-UNIX Airways). The IBM shit SW is onlyN; alive because of the economical and curruptive power of IBMi sales representatives.   > My point being, if it's survived 20 years, and it's written in C, it can't be all bad. I, on the other hand, have survived just over 20 years, and I'm pure evil. <G>i  : Even an error free OS could be completely shit if it's not
 maintainable.    > foo?w > C > >>> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 06/27/2001 4:52:15 PM >>>t > John Eisenschmidt wrote: >  > [SNIP] >  > > Would you prefer an OS written in RPG or PL/1? I myself am hoping either vacuum tubes make a stylish comeback, or someone finally writes an OS in COBOL. > = > COBOL is dead although there is an oo version which is verys@ > appreciated by the COBOL programmers I know personally. RPG is= > as far I know not calculation complete. PL/1 is a srewed upt6 > design version of Pascal. Why not DEC Pascal or Ada? >  > [SNIP]   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:08:30 -0400m2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: FreeVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207012108300001@user-2iveacu.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3B40F4EE.F0C26344@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassi <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:   ? > I don't regard an auction as illegal source if the licence iss > transferrable.  M That's just the point.  The license for the VMS listings isn't transferrable.I   -- . Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com5   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:16:21 +0000 (UTC)9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>C Subject: Re: FreeVMS- Message-ID: <9hsnk5$227$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>i  . Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:W : In article <3B3B27F1.8ACAF17F@uml.edu>, Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes:l :> iG :> I hear that the source code of VMS, on microfiche, is up for auction1, :> on Ebay.  (Some older version, I presume)  D : The fiche contain source listings and they go on sale on eBay on aG : regular basis.  Listing service switched to CD several years ago, and 6 : the listings on the fiche were never quite complete.  ' The same can be said of listings on CD.E   --  
 -Roar Thronsr   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:15:39 +0000 (UTC)9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>  Subject: Re: FreeVMS- Message-ID: <9hsr3b$5na$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>   2 Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:N : In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,0 :  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: : |>  I : |> From what I've heard, source listings are less expensive than normal J : |> licenses -- maybe this could be David Dachtera's "affordable VMS." ;)  G : Actually, considering their purpose, I would be very surprised if you,F : could acquire these listings without having a "normal" (there's thatH : word again!) VMS license.  And you definitely couldn't use them as theH : basis for a competing OS, free or not.  These listings are unpublished  B The listings are on the contrary very much published, but on a bit closed circuit.D  B : trade secret information with a very strong license behind them.  & Such code is not even in the listings.  F : |> > I'm not sure if we understand each other. With option 3 I meantD : |> > an inside similar solution by really checking what's going onF : |> > with help of a disassembler a.s.o.. The result should be almost : |> > identical OS.  G : Disassembling VMS and using that information in any way would violated  , That would still be legal in some countries.  F : any license agreement you signed.  And if you didn't sign a license,3 : then you have stolen software in your possession.i  B : FreeVMS would have to be developed in a cleanroom environment inD : order to ever be free.  Otherwise, it is just a pirated version ofE : VMS and is very likely to attract the attention of some very hungry7 : bottom feeders.   E You might mostly use just the VMS Internals and Data Structures book? E It corresponds well with the code listings (so it seems so far, but I  have not done much comparing).D I assume both the book and code are based on the same design papers?  ' The biggest problem is still VMSs size. J Even with file system support (is not someone doing that for a Unix?), RMS will still be needed.uI The copy utility uses RMS a lot, and that was as far as DECs VMS x86 porti went(?)." Then, there is lot of other parts.   -- t
 -Roar Thronsl   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 23:36:01 -0700s0 From: Jason.Armistead@otis.com (Jason Armistead)4 Subject: FS: PrintServer 32 Plus (Sydney, Australia)= Message-ID: <48ac369b.0107022236.666bbcdf@posting.google.com>s   Hi all  ? Sorry for the blatant advert, but we've got a printer for sale.b  ? Digital PrintServer 32 Plus, simplex only A3 and A4 trays, witho@ 908,000 prints on the counter.  It was a PrintServer 32, but wasD upgraded to the Plus model by virtue of a factory-supplied CPU boardC upgrade, so it supports Adobe Postscript Level 2.  This printer has < hardly been used (considering its specified 32ppm rating and pages-per-month figures)  B Always serviced by Digital and then Compaq.  Always genuine LPSxxx) spare parts and toner fitted.  One owner.i  F Being regretfully sold due to downsizing, outsourcing and importing ofA manufacturing operation.  It's been a good printer, but alas, theh# majority of its users are all gone.   E Suit: OpenVMS system with PrintServer Supporting Host + DCPS software[B (included in most NAS packages bundled with OpenVMS servers).  CanC also interface to Digital Unix and Windows NT, provided it can loada; its PrintServer operating system software from a load host.r  E Also: Consumables to suit said printer (toner, user maintenance kits,sE etc).  I can probably even find a PrintServer manual or two if I looki hard enough ..._  E Location: Minto (one hour drive south-west of Sydney), NSW, Australias  6 Inquiries/offers to Jason Armistead +61-2-9827-3742 or Jason.Armistead@otis.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:31:44 +0100o8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFEF@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J Looking back at my old log books I see that I installed our first 3 AlphasL (3400's) in January 1993. They had C, DECnet/OSI, FORTRAN, DECset, DECprint, at least ...   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:59:02 +0010e% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aus) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.r5 Message-ID: <01K5I8R8T96A0029IK@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>'   John Macallister wrote:e  K >Looking back at my old log books I see that I installed our first 3 AlphashM >(3400's) in January 1993. They had C, DECnet/OSI, FORTRAN, DECset, DECprint,=
 >at least ...=    I Just looked at my DEC 3000 SYS0 directory -- May 1993 (just a bit behind s you).l  I We were still running most of our users on corporate VAXes then and this RL machine was bought for porting development and to run one high-profile user M on these faster little beauties.  We had about the same licences as you, but - additionally FMS, GKS.  K From comments in a command file, I gave up supporting the handful of users jM still left on corporate Vaxes back in 1998.  All applications were frozen on 6I that platform (we decided that all new and upgrade code would be F90/F95 o where appropriate).    Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,"
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australia    Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,k; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:36:32 +0200.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.:, Message-ID: <3B411390.5E45E12F@infopuls.com>   Alan Greig wrote:] > G > On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:44:46 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>0 > wrote: > M > >If IA64 should really hit a brick wall, having Alpha on the shelf might be E > >worth something to Intel.  But since process technology guaranteesjO > >performance improvements even if the architecture doesn't change at all, theeN > >need to take Alpha off the shelf or even to incorporate significant aspectsN > >of its technology (which in the opinion of people who know a lot about suchO > >hardware is not felt to be easy) is not at all apparent - now that Intel hasdC > >available the option to *keep* Alpha on that shelf and avoid itsr > >competition.t > B > One other thing about the webcast I thought interesting was thatF > Capellas did not *absolutely* rule out EV8 when asked about it. IIRCB > he pointed out that the deal with Intel was non-exclusive and ifF > anyone fancied bankrolling Compaq to do it they could still go aheadD > with EV8. No he did not suggest this was likely by any means and IC > don't believe it will happen Unless there's some critical defenceeE > application we don't know about which might be expecting it.  Intel F > would not have a veto on this according to Capellas as Compaq retain > intellectual ownership.n >  > >S	 > >- bille > >, > >> > >> --  > >> Robert Deiningers > >> rdeininger@mindspring.com > >  >  > -- > Alan  . The EV8 team is gone ... how will do that job?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:42:11 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. , Message-ID: <3B4114E3.D9114377@infopuls.com>   Vance Haemmerle wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:o > : > > But there are some problems with IA63 (IntelAlpha63?):@ > > - Heat - we will (probably) never see a VMS laptop with that > > CPU.< > > - Speed - SMT isn't compatible with EPIC. EV8 would have > > probably blown IA63 away.l > >fB > > By this move of Compaq you lose a lot: EV8 Alpha will never be> > > released and you will have to migrate which will costs youA > > money, time and nerves, trust me. Compare this situation with # > > continued enhancement of Alpha.i > B >   I think you have something there.  Perhaps Intel realized that@ > EV8 would make Alpha more scalable than IA64 could ever be and@ > had to kill it now before it got too far along.  Use FUD of anA > unstoppable Intel to get Compaq to capitulate.  What better way-> > to make sure massive SMT never happened or could happen than@ > insisting on having the EV8 team work for Intel.  Now, if IA64A > falls on its face, Compaq will have no way to turn back to EV8.  >  > --D > Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USM > Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/F  ? I just read a comment in the best computer magazin I know whicho; exactly pointed out that Intel wanted to get rid of the badh? press of the Alpha performance compared to Intel's. The articles: also stated that Compaq promised by contract to drop Alpha? servers beginning 2003 and to only use IA63 in their servers. I'@ wonder if this part of the deal is really written that way. This: would mean that Compaq isn't allowed to use Alpha in their< existing line of Alpha servers even if the customers want to* have them (instead of IA63 based systems).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:46:17 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>* Subject: Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture* Message-ID: <3B41E8C9.24E66212@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:0 >  > CSABA HARANGOZO wrote:3 > >         Good luck to HP... they will need it...3 > O > Considering that Compaq is about to embark on the same philosophy of a singlevI > processor for all, your wish of good luck to HP also applies to Compaq.d >   3 Actually HP have a huge advantage over Compaq when  / it comes to comparing migrating HP-PA to IA-64 ,/ when compared to migrating Alpha to IA-64, the e( IA-64 can decode and run HP-PA binaries.  , The really interesting aspect to the Compaq ) decision to jump ship from Alpha to IA-64r* for Tru64 and OpenVMS is the huge lead HP ( will have over Compaq in the same space.  - HP have a server SuperDome which is allready n- able to support IA-64 and the IA-64 processoro+ can run HP-PA binaries. In addition HP are o* very closely involved in IA-64 CPU design.  - Compaq on the other hand do not have a large o/ Alpha based system that will also support IA-64S0 and will have to modify Marvel to be able to do  this.l  / In addition no existing Tru64/OpenVMS apps will.3 run unmodified on IA-64 unless some sort of decode d5 unit that supports Alpha is added to a later release -	 of IA-64.-  - So in the medium term, Compaq will be asking g+ customers to buy WildFires and Marvel boxesn, that have no long term future and then will . be asking people to buy a yet to be developed ) Alpha/IA-64 server that will when either r) Tru64/OpenVMS is ported to IA-64 require i+ a major transition will all the associated .+ risks and costs to get it to Tru64/OpenVMS c hosted on IA-64.  . Personally and I am not speaking for Sun here 1 this will be very very hard to sell to customers i& particularly if the competition is HP.      Regardsd Andrew Harrisonh Enterprise IT Architecto   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 23:14:29 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>3 Subject: Re: Hobby LIcense: One USER, or one LOGIN?u( Message-ID: <9hqo2i$gko$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  H Perfect. A class A license with 0 units will load on any processor model/ and allow an infinite number of users to logon.f   Hans  = Martin Vorlaender <martin@radiogaga.harz.de> wrote in messagef5 news:3b3f3f00.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de...i# > Hans Vlems (hvlems@iae.nl) wrote: 2 > > Mark Vance <mvance@iglou.com> wrote in message' > > news:3B3DF757.FA66C5EE@iglou.com...rI > > > Does the hobbyist license confine you to ONE USER at a time, or one $ > > > LOGIN of one user at one time. > ><H > > Assuming that the hobbyist license uses LMF, it depends on what type > > of VMS license you have." > > Is it an A, B, C or D license? > 5 > The hobbyist VMS license is a class A, 0 units one.n >l > cu,e
 >   Martin > --F >                         | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3 >  VMS is today what      | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de G >  Microsoft wants        |    http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/a: >  Windows NT 8.0 to be!  | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:21:40 -0400t, From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>3 Subject: Re: Hobby LIcense: One USER, or one LOGIN?w( Message-ID: <3B41FF24.AF8F04D4@osfn.org>   Mark Vance wrote:a > E > Does the hobbyist license confine you to ONE USER at a time, or one   > The hobbyist license should allow you to login more than once.  G Login to the system and type "show license *vms*" at the $ prompt.  Youn should see something like this:)   $ show license *vms* i   Active licenses on node SHARK:  > ------- Product ID --------    ---- Rating ----- -- Version --C Product            Producer    Units Avail Activ Version Release   a TerminationrC OPENVMS-ALPHA      DEC             0  0     A      0.0  26-JUN-2002s 26-JUN-2002 D OPENVMS-ALPHA-USER DEC             0  0     100    0.0   9-MAY-2002  9-MAY-2002  D OPENVMS-HOBBYIST   DEC             0  0     100    0.0   9-MAY-2002  9-MAY-2002 ,D VAX-VMS            DEC             0  0     A      0.0   9-MAY-2002  9-MAY-2002 t  F Make sure that the Termination date is in the future and that Activ isE "A" for either the VAX-VMS or OPENVMS-ALPHA (whichever you are using)   E If you don't see the the license info after typing the above command,sC you will need to use the information in the Hobbyist email that youMG should have received when you registered.  There will be a section near  the bottom that begins with:  " $ LICENSE REGISTER OPENVMS-ALPHA	-    E Login to the console as SYSTEM and enter those lines, exactly as theyt appear, at the prompt.  ) You might want to check the help files at % http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist for e   -mikeu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 17:50:56 +0800j5 From: Netsurfer <netsurfer@sentosa.singaporemail.com>r5 Subject: How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a daya8 Message-ID: <m353ktgeuapfn8nb15101glcdoj0fid1tl@4ax.com>  @ Is there a simple batch DCL script to automatically resubmit its, ownself few times a day given a fixed delay?  B My DBA wants me to provide him a script to submit a SQL program to2 monitor the free tablespace twice or thrice a day.3 I am not very well-versed in OpenVMS, and clueless.s  
 Please help!!s      r Regards,  	 Netsurfero        ====R For any personal email replies, please remove " sentosa. " from my E-mail address.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 10:30:10 GMTI3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) 9 Subject: Re: How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a dayR0 Message-ID: <9hs6ri$f8c$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  p In article <m353ktgeuapfn8nb15101glcdoj0fid1tl@4ax.com>, Netsurfer <netsurfer@sentosa.singaporemail.com> writes:A >Is there a simple batch DCL script to automatically resubmit its - >ownself few times a day given a fixed delay?  >nC >My DBA wants me to provide him a script to submit a SQL program tos3 >monitor the free tablespace twice or thrice a day.i4 >I am not very well-versed in OpenVMS, and clueless. >  >Please help!!   What about that one:  5 $ time  = """" + F$CVTIME("+00:10","ABSOLUTE") + """"nO $ pname = F$ELEMENT( 0, ";", F$ENVIRONMENT("PROCEDURE") )   ! no version numbero2 $ tname = F$PARSE( pname,,, "TYPE", "SYNTAX_ONLY")" $ pos   = F$LOCATE( tname, pname )- $ lname = F$EXTRACT( 0, pos, pname ) + ".LOG" E $ SUBMIT/NONOTIFY/QUEUE=mpi5_batch/NOPRINT/AFTER='time'/NOLOG 'pname'uL $! SUBMIT/NONOTIFY/QUEUE=mpi5_batch/NOPRINT/AFTER='time'/LOG='lname' 'pname'" $ PURGE/NOCONFIRM/KEEP=500 'lname' $ PURGE/NOCONFIRM 'pname'. $! $ EXIT   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanna  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:34 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)I9 Subject: Re: How to (auto-re)submit batch few times a day , Message-ID: <3JUL200107344945@gerg.tamu.edu>  - netsurfer@sentosa.singaporemail.com writes...dA }Is there a simple batch DCL script to automatically resubmit itsu- }ownself few times a day given a fixed delay?h } C }My DBA wants me to provide him a script to submit a SQL program tot3 }monitor the free tablespace twice or thrice a day. 4 }I am not very well-versed in OpenVMS, and clueless.  B If you have a file DO_STUFF.COM that you want to automatically run? periodically, the best way is generally to create another file, E AUTO_DO_STUFF.COM, that resubmits itself every time it runs and whichnE calls DO_STUFF.COM. (This lets you change what is in DO_STUFF.COM andlB not have to worry about what version will get run the next time it tries to run the batch job.)  1 AUTO_DO_STUFF.COM would look something like this:n  - $! define the run interval to be a delta-time  $!! $ interval = "+8:0:0.0" ! 8 hoursn $! $! convert to absolute time  $!5 $ next_run = F$CvTime(interval,"ABSOLUTE","DATETIME")  $! $! submit the next run $!( $ Submit some:[place]auto_do_stuff.com -   /After="''next_run'" -/   /NoPrint/Queue=the_right_queue_for_this_job -t=   /Log=disk$name:[dir_name]logfilename.log/Name="AutoDoStuff"e $!) $! now do the stuff that needs to be done7 $! $ @some:[place]do_stuff.com  $! $ Exit s  G Note: I just typed this is in, so there may be a typo or two. It shouldeG give you the general idea (or, with proper substitution for the correct.E parameter and qualifier values, maybe even just work). The exact time G of each run will advance by some very small amount - the amount of time G to fire up the batch job's process and process everything (sylogin.com, J login.com, etc.) up through the generation of the next_run symbol's value.G This is likely to be less than a couple of seconds even on a slow Alpha-H under significant load, unless you are doing something excessive in your sylogin.com or login.com.r   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:04:54 +02001 From: zessin@decus.den' Subject: I didn't stick it upside down! + Message-ID: <009FE727.B07520BA.16@decus.de>a  ' http://www.decus.de/~zessin/pic/sbb.jpgx   --
 Uwe Zessin   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:18:01 -0400s+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>a+ Subject: Re: I didn't stick it upside down!o# Message-ID: <sb419bed.009@aaas.org>r  ' Wow - that's what I call "out of spec".t  / >>> <zessin@decus.de> 07/03/2001 3:04:54 AM >>>e* http://www.decus.de/~zessin/pic/sbb.jpg=20   --
 Uwe Zessin   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:43:18 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>f+ Subject: Re: I didn't stick it upside down!p' Message-ID: <3B41F626.72B8FEE4@fsi.net>s   zessin@decus.de wrote: > ) > http://www.decus.de/~zessin/pic/sbb.jpgs >  > -- > Uwe Zessin    B-mazing (a step beyond Amazing)   -- n David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 08:44:27 -0400-5 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)0Y Subject: ia64 possiblities -- was Re: May thet rot in hell, this will never be finished nM3 Message-ID: <9hsenb$86o$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>2  G In article <9hkksv$p05$4@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:sV >In article Pine.NXT.4.40.0106291903400.12870-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,0 >   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: >nH >>With all due respect, although the loss of Alpha is deeply regrettable4 >>some of us do not mourn the demise of VMS at all.  >r? >It was the last of excellence.  The people, who had never been @ >exposed to TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, swore by that operating system's >usefulness.  F Absolutely... and some of us hope that it will still manage to surviveB despite Compaq's major blunders and Palmer's deliberate gutting of
 a company.   >MC >> There are still very bitter memories of the attitude of the VMS i1 >>developers towards those of us in 36-bit land. 1 >. >Not as bitter as mine, Mark.  >E6 >> The thought that VMS may end up languishing in evenJ >>greater obscurity than the 36-bit operating systems is quite comforting. >l@ >As much as I agree with you in heart, I can't agree with you in0 >my brain.  I mourn the loss of usefulness more. >n@ >>But will Unix survive?  If the pattern continues, that's going# >>to be the next immolation target.d   I'm betting it won't.  m  A I'm thinking that it appears WinNT^H^H2000 will eventually be thes@ winner here... not by Darwin's survival of the fittest -- but by; the environmental changes in the "ecoloogy of the MIS shop"u8 which put the non-techie bean counters in charge and letI Microsoft's PR types convince them of the most "cost-effective solution."B  B I never had any real exposure to TOPS10 (outside of Compuserve)...= and my TOPS20 experience was mostly Market-20 ftp'ing at DEC..  E However, I developed a real respect for their capabilities along withsD VMS and RSTS and RSX11 and RT11.   I've even developed a respect for> Unix and IBM's OS/2 and VM.  There is no ONE OS for every use.D DEC management was WRONG... Unfortunately MS will push NT down hard A enough for the "ONE ARCHITECTURE ONE OS" crew to finally succeed.f  > Interesting that Gordon Bell's there now...  Perhaps it's all C one giant conspiracy that started in the 70's.  Where's my aluminum4F foil hat before the black helicopters get me with their mind rays  8-)  @ I now make my living with Unix... but I'm certain that in 10-15 G years it'll be a very small niche like VMS is or some of the older IBM aF flavors are.  I'm hoping to retire out before it hits... but I'll only< be 57-62 so it's not likely.  My kid'll still be in college.    G The fight in the Field Service Office in the 80's was the opposite withtE the LCG Service guys taking a superior attitude towards the VAX/PDP11pB guys.  However, we were still in the "DEC family" and came to work? together when needed.  (I was pressed into service fixing thosee awful TU45's enough).y  A (Hell, the IBM Service guys wouldn't even acknowlege the presencee7 of either of us under corporate penalty of dismissal.) b  9 I'm sorry that the VMS crew treated the 36 bitters badly.EG However the loss to computing is worse than the personal slights we mayi have seen in our lives.  h  D Let us remember the true loss here is the diversity of architecturesN and design differences.  If we had only one type of house or car built in thisA country would we be any better for it.  Hell no.  Computing needslG diversity for strength.  Look how dangerous the Morris Worm was becauseiI it targetted two very common architectures and OS's --  Sun 68k Unix and  
 VAX BSD Unix.-  L MS and Intel have done something similar to different computer architecturesE what some unknown disaster (weather, meteorite?) did to the dinosaurs E (not to compare our OS and CPU's to dinos).  This is an evolution and:E ecological shift to smaller, cheaper commodity boxes...  DEC and the hA other Mini and Mainframe vendors didn't successfully adapt to the 7 competition.  Cheap desktop Vaxes then Alphas, PDP10's,oG Unisys A-series boxes, etc might have worked.  The Sun and Apollo (then E HP and IBM) boxes made way to PC's.  They're tne next ones to go now.   F My hope is the move to Intel ia64 sprouts a smart idea in the folks inA Compaq... The ability to run NT 64 bit apps on desktop Open/VMS   
 workstations.A  = Finally DEC would have what they were promised in Alpha NT...r  / (if it happens you heard it here first folks ).t   --Bill   -- e ---a>   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a >   villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 8   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 23:52:08 -0700o/ From: Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson)   Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World= Message-ID: <4495ef1f.0107022252.1bfeee17@posting.google.com>u  _ newsuser@news.com (dondo) wrote in message news:<Xns90D11A7CBB6C6newsusernewscom@24.24.0.22>...t/ > Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com> wrote ino' > <3B3C85E8.7040700@brussels.sgi.com>: w >  > >Brannon Batson wrote: > > A > >> bengtl.net@telia.nospam.com (Bengt Larsson) wrote in messagea3 > >> news:<3b3b4181.30126558@enews.newsguy.com>... e > >> eG > >>>In comp.arch, Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:r > >>>e > >>>sD > >>>>Casper.Dik@Holland.Sun.Com (Casper H.S. Dik - Network Security > >>>>Engineer) writes:  > >>>>E > >>>>>Engineers shouldn't blame everything on marketing; Digital has ? > >>>>>made serious mistakes when it came to building hardware.u > >>>>>  > = > ... And every DEC computer - even I believe workstations - o? > have at least had ecc on the cache since 1982.  Someone couldE > learn from that...  C Just wait till he starts telling us about how Alpha systems are toolF slow...I just love hearing about how much faster and more reliable Sun systems are than Alphas.   Brannonf1 not speaking for Compaq (and not for much longer)l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:44:42 -0700 & From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley)  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World> Message-ID: <name99-0207011344420001@il0203a-dhcp93.apple.com>  @ In article <3b3ddf7e$0$1930$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>,  jfc@mit.edu (John F Carr) wrote:  @ > In article <name99-2906011608320001@il0203a-dhcp93.apple.com>,) > Maynard Handley <name99@mac.com> wrote: H > >In article <9hg93t$cof$1@hubcap.clemson.edu>, mark@hubcap.clemson.edu > >(Mark Smotherman) wrote:a > > 0 > >> John Bayko <jbayko@sk.sympatico.ca> writes: > >> dH > >> The i960CA was actually the first single-chip superscalar processor in 1990. > >>  M > >> I'm not completely familiar with the ARM family, but a blurb in May saida; > >> they are working on a superscalar core called Cheetah.o > >6/ > >Were the low-end RS/6000s available in 1989 s > >(a) not single chip orr > >(b) not super scalar? > >hA > >It was my understanding that even the very first RS/6000s wereaJ > >superscalar, and I would have thought the low-end ones were single CPU. > H > The original RS/6000 had about five chips: FPU, ALU, instruction unit,G > and data caches.  (The multiplier alone was comparable in size to the B > ROMPC chip in the IBM RT, according to the architecture book IBMD > published.) There was also a lot of control logic on the processor* > board to handle startup and diagnostics. > E > The first single-chip RS/6000 was the 220/230 using the "RSC" chip, > > which evolved into the 601 with a lot of help from Motorola.  G As I recall when RS/6000 first came out, there were three models (maybejF 4). There was a mondo server type machine, a tower type machine, and aG desktop type machine of much the same size and shape as a desktop PC ofn
 the time. E While I was aware that the higher end machines were multiple chips, IaH thought those low-end desktops were single chip, but heck, I can believe' it if you say they were also multichip.i   Maynarde   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:27:11 GMTs+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>r  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World) Message-ID: <un16nynko.fsf@earthlink.net>   ( name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes:  I > As I recall when RS/6000 first came out, there were three models (maybe H > 4). There was a mondo server type machine, a tower type machine, and aI > desktop type machine of much the same size and shape as a desktop PC of- > the time. G > While I was aware that the higher end machines were multiple chips, IaJ > thought those low-end desktops were single chip, but heck, I can believe) > it if you say they were also multichip.n > 	 > Maynardb   Announced early 1990   320 ... desktop- 520 ... deskside 330 ... desktop  530 ... deskside: 730 ... "wide" deskside w/vmebus for special graphics card 930 ... rack mount  ( effectively same chipset and motherboard   x20 was clocked at 20Mhz x30 was clocked at 25Mhz   then came x40s, and x50s e  : x50s were announced Oct. 1990  and had 41.6 Mhz clock rate   -- eH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/        -- nH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:50:09 GMTD% From: gavin@allegro.com (Gavin Scott)o  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World1 Message-ID: <RM707.1$va3.962@news.nyc.globix.net>o  9 In comp.arch Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:6* > name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes:H >> While I was aware that the higher end machines were multiple chips, IK >> thought those low-end desktops were single chip, but heck, I can believeA* >> it if you say they were also multichip.   > Announced early 1990   > 320 ... desktopr  < Oddly enough, I have a 320H (I think it is) here that's beenC functioning as a web server for many years and which had the fan in - the power supply give up the ghost last week.   @ As a result I had occasion to take it apart, and noted that the ? processor board has something like nine large heat-sinked chipstA plus a big PROM labeled Microcode rev <something>.  So it doesn't ! look very "single chip" to me :-)-  C The machine is long since off of support, and IBM chose to weld thetB power supply case together into a single unmaintainable blob.  AddC the fact that the fan seems to have rotational sensing support that-B causes the power supply to scram if the fan doesn't turn for about= three seconds and this machine is heading for the scrap heap.w  C The inside case molding has a manufacture date of (IIRC) July 1990.n   G.  B P.S. We actually have it running at the moment by pointing a largeD houshold fan at the dead PS fan.  The airflow is enough to drive the9 bad fan (backwards :-) and keep the PS from tripping off.g   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:53:48 GMT 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>l& Subject: Re: KZMSA support on VAX 77102 Message-ID: <3B408BF3.E15641EE@clarityconnect.com>  H The KZMSA is not supported on the VAX platform thus no VAX drivers and IE know of no third party drivers for it either.  It is supported on thei& DEC 7000 platform under OpenVMS Alpha.   Jean-Francois Marchal wrote: > 
 > Hi all ! > I > I need no know if the KZMSA is supported on a VAX 7710 running VMS 6.2.oI > I can't find the info in the latest SOC I've found (they only reference : > a KFMSA adapter). I it is supported, are two supported ? > K > Will I need a license to use striping on a HSZ40 connected to the KZMSA ?r >  > Cheers > Jean-Franois Marchalr > X9000m   -- tD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:29:16 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com& Subject: RE: KZMSA support on VAX 7710H Message-ID: <OF8BBCEE82.21358F1A-ON80256A7E.00394914@qedi.quintiles.com>  K There is the KFMSA XMI-to-DSSI adapter though.  I know it's compatible withiH the VAX 7000 model 800 series and I would imagine it's going to be happyJ with the VAX 7000 model 700 (famous last words....).  Couple this to a fewF HSD30s (which are peanuts on the second user market) and you can still# connect up Storageworks SCSI disks.  Steve.   Oliver Steeples commented :F >>>4& My VAX 7700 SOC shows CI based storageI as the only option with no scsi HSx controllers allowed   As for stripinge on" an HSZ40, yes a license is needed. <<<1   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:28:24 +0200> From: "Jean-Francois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>& Subject: Re: KZMSA support on VAX 7710. Message-ID: <9hrolu$kia$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>   Thanks to all who responded ...w
 Jean-Franoisb  G "Steeples, Oliver" <Oliver.Steeples@compaq.com> a crit dans le message I news: F498D199EDB12D468CD2C66680D308018B154A@reoexc04.emea.cpqcorp.net...L Hi,p my sources say:y  K "XMI to Narrow Single Ended/Differential SCSI-1/SCSI-2 Adapter for DEC 7000t9 AXP or DEC 10000 AXP, AlphaServer 8400 and GS140 systems.m  I The KZMSA I/O adapter is used in the XMI plugin unit (PIU) of a DEC 7000dJ AXP or DEC 10000 AXP system. The KZMSA allows I/O to tapes and disks usingI the SCSI (Small Computer Systems Interface) protocol. Compaq supplies thetL BA655 SCSI disk and tape PIU for SCSI I/O devices in the system and expanderH cabinets of the DEC 7000 AXP and DEC 10000 AXP systems. Also used on the& AlphaServer 8400 and GS140 XMI buses."  K So it looks like AXP only, not VAX.  My VAX 7700 SOC shows CI based storageOL as the only option with no scsi HSx controllers allowed   As for striping on" an HSZ40, yes a license is needed.   Regards, Oliver   -----Original Message-----C From: Jean-Francois Marchal [mailto:jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr] $ Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:44 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt" Subject: KZMSA support on VAX 7710     Hi all !  G I need no know if the KZMSA is supported on a VAX 7710 running VMS 6.2.SG I can't find the info in the latest SOC I've found (they only referencee8 a KFMSA adapter). I it is supported, are two supported ?  I Will I need a license to use striping on a HSZ40 connected to the KZMSA ?,   Cheers Jean-Franois Marchal  X9000.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 16:09:00 +0200m* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: Mozilla 9.0 on 7.3 * Message-ID: <3b41d1fc$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEGACOAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes: M >I downloaded and installed the latest mozilla on a 433au running 7.3.  It is- >much slowerK >than IE on a 544 dual Celeron running W2K, but that may be because it onlyl6 >has 128MB of memory.  It is time to get Opera ported!   Current MOZILLA is 0.9.22 MOZILLA is a resource hog compared to NETSCAPE V3,+ which is a resource hog compared to MOSAIC,9) which is a resource hog compared to LYNX.dF Fortunately the irons got hotter over the time, but running MOZILLA on9 a stone age Alpha is very annoying (if it starts at all).o5 And limited memory is a big sin on every 64bit systemd  M >How does one get it into the Personal Applictions pop-up menu ?  That shouldw# >have been included in the install,s  K Never heard so far, that an application (MOZILLA) install also modifies CDEpH (private or systemwide) customizations. This is done on Windows by aboutK any Install Shield Usage, but is on the wish-list on OpenVMS for many years F (mostly because there a more important things still to do and some VMSI fans don't like the idea of automagic customization of other applications/ at all).  I >                                   which otherwise went smoothly without K >intervention, except for a misleading  error in the install documentation,l >I.E.M >o& >$ PRODUCT INSTALL MOZILLA/SOURCE=KITS >y >It is sufficient with >$ PRODUCT INSTALL MOZILLA  & Yup. (or PRODUCT INSTALL MOZILLA /LOG)   -- e< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888,< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:22:09 -0500-9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: MSA and VMS 7.33 Message-ID: <8allNW6TCh7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  u In article <Mzb07.28620$Qx2.438460@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:a% > Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote:AK >> Has anyone tested Pathworks for Macintosh on VMS 7.3 yet?  What are the p0 >> odds that it has survived another OS release? > % > It's reported to work see DejaNews:h > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=dcps+macintosh&hl=en&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=2001&as_maxd=2&as_maxm=7&as_maxy=2001&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=paul.r.anderson-1405011010450001%40dhcp-16-21-34-107.eng.lkg.dec.com > N > Unless you're using it for printing though I'd have to say the time has comeG > to start figuring out how to move on.  Apple has done a better job oftA > breaking it with MacOS X, than Compaq has with new OS releases!E > G > 	Zane (who is still ticked by the lack of native appletalk support in * > MacOS X, and as a result not running it)  D MacOS X removes the major security advantage of MacOS -- the lack ofA a command language that can be used in exploits.  That is why theuA US Army specified MacOS as the preferred operating system for webb servers.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:05:34 GMTa" From: Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> Subject: MSA and VMS 7.39 Message-ID: <2Ea07.283$GI4.16460@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>o  H Has anyone tested Pathworks for Macintosh on VMS 7.3 yet?  What are the - odds that it has survived another OS release?R   Thanks,i         .../Ed -- " Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 04:09:16 GMTl2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: MSA and VMS 7.3@ Message-ID: <Mzb07.28620$Qx2.438460@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>  # Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote:sJ > Has anyone tested Pathworks for Macintosh on VMS 7.3 yet?  What are the / > odds that it has survived another OS release?h  # It's reported to work see DejaNews:  http://groups.google.com/groups?q=dcps+macintosh&hl=en&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=2001&as_maxd=2&as_maxm=7&as_maxy=2001&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=paul.r.anderson-1405011010450001%40dhcp-16-21-34-107.eng.lkg.dec.com  L Unless you're using it for printing though I'd have to say the time has comeE to start figuring out how to move on.  Apple has done a better job of ? breaking it with MacOS X, than Compaq has with new OS releases!e  E 	Zane (who is still ticked by the lack of native appletalk support in ( MacOS X, and as a result not running it)   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 01 09:29:54 MDTt" From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Subject: Re: MSA and VMS 7.3% Message-ID: <rhwttAyDJnxV@cc.usu.edu>w  o In article <8allNW6TCh7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:nF > MacOS X removes the major security advantage of MacOS -- the lack ofC > a command language that can be used in exploits.  That is why theeC > US Army specified MacOS as the preferred operating system for webs
 > servers.   Applescript? -- lN -------------------------+----------------------------------------------------3 Roger Ivie               | Ben Stein for president!  ivie@cc.usu.edu          | http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ | -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----e Version: 3.18 GP dpu s:+++ a C++ UB- P--- L- E--- W- N++ o-- K-- w--- > O M+ V+++ PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++ 5++ X-- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D-  G-- e++ h--- r+++ y+++ S ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:39:57 -0400i+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>a Subject: Re: MSA and VMS 7.3# Message-ID: <sb41af1b.006@aaas.org>t  K Agreed. I like Batch, DCL, C Shell, Perl, etc etc, but Applescript is the =h3 only thing I've ever seen that will make breakfast.y   TELL THE FINDERp#   TO THE APPLICATION "QUARK XPRESS"p(     TO GET IT'S HEAP BACK IN THE KITCHEN      AND MAKE ME SOME BREAKFASTA LOOP  J We run Webstar on MacOS here. Very secure, because if you hack it - it's =H still a Mac. I mean, yes, the Photoshop to deface the website is right =J there, but none the less we've had pretty good luck with it (better than =E IIS, though my personal preference will always be Apache on OpenBSD.).  ; >>> Roger Ivie <ivie@cc.usu.edu> 07/03/2001 11:29:54 AM >>>lL In article <8allNW6TCh7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.=$ org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:F > MacOS X removes the major security advantage of MacOS -- the lack ofC > a command language that can be used in exploits.  That is why the:C > US Army specified MacOS as the preferred operating system for webc
 > servers.   Applescript? --=20-L -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------= --- 3 Roger Ivie               | Ben Stein for president!m ivie@cc.usu.edu          | http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ | -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----r Version: 3.1: GP dpu s:+++ a C++ UB- P--- L- E--- W- N++ o-- K-- w---=20@ O M+ V+++ PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++ 5++ X-- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D-=20 G-- e++ h--- r+++ y+++=20c ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------c   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 09:30:50 -0700>( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture)= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0107030830.13909683@posting.google.com>g  a jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) wrote in message news:<9ha8if$95l$1@lisa.gemair.com>... F > I wonder if Compaq will stop selling AMD machines now?  Maybe Compaq5 > has locked in a good price on Intel processors now.e  B The press release said: "Compaq will consolidate its entire 64-bitA family of servers onto the Itanium microprocessor architecture byr 2004."  C So it apparenly only applies to (64-bit) servers.  This leaves openCE the use of AMD chips for laptops and desktop PCs (and IA-32 servers).a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:10:40 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE4 Message-ID: <1010703020246.342B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On 2 Jul 2001 cthulhu@rlyeh.it wrote:h  # > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:9 > E > > change them, but since you can't get to DCL, you may have to do a.F > > conversational boot (usually >>> BOOT/1, see MGMT5 in the FAQ) and > - > Tried with doubling value, with no results.  > F > Further more, after a PURGE in SYS$SYSTEM and SYS$SHARE (there whereI > different releases of executables), now the system halts just after the I > "OpenVMS" welcome string, I have to launch by hand @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.a5 > And then it hangs back on the AUDIT SERVER startup.e  F Halts?  Do you mean "becomes totaly no-repsonsive and prints nothing",D or do you mean "Prints the >>> and waits for input (possibly after aD "System halted" message)", or do you mean "Prints the "$" prompt andC waits for input"?  If the last (the only way I could see your beingnB able to execute @sys$system:startup after the halt), then it isn't@ halted.  You probably set the startup command file to "OPA0:" inC SYSGEN or SYSBOOT.  You need to reset it to sys$system:startup.com. , (Use SYSGEN or SYSBOOT SHOW/STARTUP to see.)   Hope this helps.   > J > Oh, well, I'll wait for that 300MB HDD to reinstall, and I've learned to> > _always_ reboot the system between two ECO installations. :) >  > 	learningly, > 	  Cthulhu   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 22:30:28 +0200h From: cthulhu@rlyeh.it6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE) Message-ID: <9hqll4$1u4$1@kadath.deep.it>e  ! John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:i  C > change them, but since you can't get to DCL, you may have to do anD > conversational boot (usually >>> BOOT/1, see MGMT5 in the FAQ) and  + Tried with doubling value, with no results.   D Further more, after a PURGE in SYS$SYSTEM and SYS$SHARE (there whereG different releases of executables), now the system halts just after the G "OpenVMS" welcome string, I have to launch by hand @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.r3 And then it hangs back on the AUDIT SERVER startup.h  H Oh, well, I'll wait for that 300MB HDD to reinstall, and I've learned to< _always_ reboot the system between two ECO installations. :)   	learningly,
 	  Cthulhu   -- r  H        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!$ 		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:31:34 +0100b  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXEH Message-ID: <OFCB92F9B8.63159F11-ON80256A7E.003F12CE@qedi.quintiles.com>  " Will the system do a minimum boot?F If so, you could clear out all of the cruft from the various parameter5 files that might be on disk and carry out an autogen. I It may not provide positive results, but if the system is hosed anyway itn could be worth a try.w Steve.   Cthulhu wrote :  >>> + Tried with doubling value, with no results.t  D Further more, after a PURGE in SYS$SYSTEM and SYS$SHARE (there whereG different releases of executables), now the system halts just after thejG "OpenVMS" welcome string, I have to launch by hand @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.x3 And then it hangs back on the AUDIT SERVER startup.i  H Oh, well, I'll wait for that 300MB HDD to reinstall, and I've learned to< _always_ reboot the system between two ECO installations. :) <<<t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:57:12 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)n6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE1 Message-ID: <3b41167a.433114706@news.wcc.govt.nz>u  5 On 2 Jul 2001 22:30:28 +0200, cthulhu@rlyeh.it wrote:e  " >John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote: >oD >> change them, but since you can't get to DCL, you may have to do aE >> conversational boot (usually >>> BOOT/1, see MGMT5 in the FAQ) and  >p, >Tried with doubling value, with no results. >iE >Further more, after a PURGE in SYS$SYSTEM and SYS$SHARE (there where H >different releases of executables), now the system halts just after theH >"OpenVMS" welcome string, I have to launch by hand @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.4 >And then it hangs back on the AUDIT SERVER startup. >eI >Oh, well, I'll wait for that 300MB HDD to reinstall, and I've learned to = >_always_ reboot the system between two ECO installations. :)  >d
 >	learningly,a >	  Cthulhu  >R >--  >9I >       Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!l% >		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>  > B The file that seems to control what images are installed by VMS isC sys$system:vmsimages.dat. So, I'd check that secureshrp is in that.,  F If it isn't then I'm confused as I've done several recent VMS 7,2 fromA scratch installs on MicroVAX3100s and not encountered this issue..  D If it is, then as indicated by John, it would appear to be some kind of resource issue.  What Patches have you installed?! What Products have you installed?p  D I've found that I generally need to ramp up gblsections and gblpagesD manually after fresh installs to get things like DECWindows to work.  D If the system halts just after the welcome to vms string, how do you
 access it?   Rob.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:56:28 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: Re: owner of a file( Message-ID: <9hqn0p$cok$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  - @nnib <annibale@ifrance.com> wrote in message	- news:9ho3eu$18t$1@aldebaran.worldonline.fr...  > Hi,o >  > i'm newbie in VMSo >cF > I need to change the owner of a file     ( like chown in unix world) > How can i do that..... >c > Thanks > @nnib  >- >-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:59:44 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: Re: owner of a file( Message-ID: <9hqn6t$dd5$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  D The $ set fil/owner_uic command is probably what you're looking for.A So if user Jack owns a file and you want the user John to own it:r   $ mc authorize sho johns  J Write down the information that follows UIC, something like UIC  [200,112] Next:   . $ set file/owner_uic=[200,112]   this_file.dat  I Wildcards are permitted. Note that user John must have access also to the  directory files E that make up the directory tree and the disk if that was mounted as a  private volume.s  
 Hans Vlems    - @nnib <annibale@ifrance.com> wrote in message - news:9ho3eu$18t$1@aldebaran.worldonline.fr...- > Hi,- >  > i'm newbie in VMS0 >8F > I need to change the owner of a file     ( like chown in unix world) > How can i do that..... >o > Thanks > @nnibs >- >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 07:54:51 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o Subject: Re: owner of a file' Message-ID: <3B41C09B.25B39E3D@fsi.net>8   John Santos wrote: > ' > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Hans Vlems wrote:X > H > > The $ set fil/owner_uic command is probably what you're looking for.E > > So if user Jack owns a file and you want the user John to own it:/ > >p > > $ mc authorize sho johnn > > N > > Write down the information that follows UIC, something like UIC  [200,112]	 > > Next:u > > 2 > > $ set file/owner_uic=[200,112]   this_file.dat > E > Unless you've done something very odd with AUTHORIZE or broken yourn5 > rights database, there is no need to do this.  Justa > % > $ set file/owner=john this_file.dat   > Assuming that any username equates to any specific UIC via theE RIGHTSLIST is a bit brash, as experience on many sites has proven (ton me, at least).   If this command fails:  " $ SET FILE filespec/OWNER=username  G ..., then you must indeed locate the correct UIC as Hans described, andnF specify that in place of a username, since "username .eqs. id_name" is> not necessarily true - likely to be true, I grant you, but not guaranteed.o   -- 7 David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:00:54 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: owner of a file4 Message-ID: <1010703015824.342A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Hans Vlems wrote:n  F > The $ set fil/owner_uic command is probably what you're looking for.C > So if user Jack owns a file and you want the user John to own it:s >  > $ mc authorize sho johny > L > Write down the information that follows UIC, something like UIC  [200,112] > Next:o > 0 > $ set file/owner_uic=[200,112]   this_file.dat  C Unless you've done something very odd with AUTHORIZE or broken your 3 rights database, there is no need to do this.  JustL  # $ set file/owner=john this_file.datg  K > Wildcards are permitted. Note that user John must have access also to thed > directory fileseG > that make up the directory tree and the disk if that was mounted as an > private volume.s >  > Hans Vlems >  > / > @nnib <annibale@ifrance.com> wrote in messaged/ > news:9ho3eu$18t$1@aldebaran.worldonline.fr...s > > Hi,  > >o > > i'm newbie in VMS  > >lH > > I need to change the owner of a file     ( like chown in unix world) > > How can i do that..... > >t
 > > Thanks	 > > @nnibo   --   John Santosk Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 03:32:50 -0700w& From: Martyn.Pattison@ntl.com (Martyn)G Subject: Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms = Message-ID: <26697816.0107030232.54ccb85d@posting.google.com>n  C If I remember correctly (and it's been a LOOOONG time). RDB (before/< Oracle got it) used to have it's own ODBC driver, there wereE Windoze,Apple,Dos executables provided in the VMS installation kit. I8D seem to remember that they got dumped into SYS$EXAMPLES or somewhereF like that and you then had to copy the appropriate image onto your PC.E It's worth having a look in your SYS$HELP or SYS$EXAMPLES directoriesmC for any release notes or installation guides for RDB, as there wereMF instructions in there explaining how to set it up. If you've still gotD the installation media you could get the release notes off there and extract relevant files.1  D Best I can do I'm afraid as I don't have access to any RDB stuff any more.e  
 Best of luck.r   Martyn.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:11:30 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")G Subject: Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms_8 Message-ID: <009FE6B3.43AC8C35@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ~ In article <084681714A1BD511970B0002A560015F2D742B@exchange01.govnet.gov.fj>, Nivlesh Chandra <NChandra001@itc.gov.fj> writes:G >I had posted this question sometime earlier but I guess I was not veryh% >coherent. here is the question again  >hJ >I have rdb databases on VMS Alpha Machines. The version of rdb is DEC Rdb' >V6.1-04 and the version of VMS is V6.0pE >Now what I want to do is to connect to the rdb database using a odbc M >connection from a windows machine. Before this used to work but now for someaM >reason it does not. I do not have any manuals to work by and the person thatrF >had setup the odbc stuff previously has long gone without leaving anyK >documentation. This is of urgency since I have to get the ODBC connections L >up as soon as possible. Would really appreciate it if someone could help meL >figure out what is going on or better still point me to documentation which, >I can follow to troubleshoot the problem...  G General pointer: There is no ODBC server on the Rdb side.  VMS runs SQLaK services, and Oracle provides a special ODBC client on Windows for Rdb that G translates the application's ODBC calls into SQL Services calls that gouK on the wire.  A side effect of this implementation is that you can't use aneI ODBC client on Linux or Mac to connect with your Rdb database unless you  I use a third-party product that acts as an ODBC server on your VMS system.s  & So your problem could be among these:   > o SQL Services stopped running or stopped running correctly.    D o You moved the databases to some other disk drive or something and (   SQL Services can't find them any more.  ? o You haven't installed the ODBC driver on the Windows machine.d  I o The most recent ODBC driver from Oracle doesn't work right with ancient J   unsupported-by-Oracle versions of Rdb or SQL Services.  (I don't know if)   that's true, but it could be possible.)   H o The ODBC driver on the Windows machine isn't set up right; maybe your J   SQL Services expect a particular password and the info didn't get filled(   in on your Data Sources control panel.  K Start by looking for the Guide to using SQL Services, and verify that there3I is a service for your database and that it starts and runs okay.  Before .K doing that there's little point in trying to debug the ODBC on the PC side.s  
 Good luck!   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056?M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210-O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:06:36 -0700 # From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)PG Subject: Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms-= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0107030606.6a8685af@posting.google.com>K   Nivlesh Chandra <NChandra001@itc.gov.fj> wrote in message news:<084681714A1BD511970B0002A560015F2D742B@exchange01.govnet.gov.fj>...oH > I had posted this question sometime earlier but I guess I was not very& > coherent. here is the question again > K > I have rdb databases on VMS Alpha Machines. The version of rdb is DEC Rdbb( > V6.1-04 and the version of VMS is V6.0F > Now what I want to do is to connect to the rdb database using a odbcN > connection from a windows machine. Before this used to work but now for someN > reason it does not. I do not have any manuals to work by and the person thatG > had setup the odbc stuff previously has long gone without leaving anyoL > documentation. This is of urgency since I have to get the ODBC connectionsM > up as soon as possible. Would really appreciate it if someone could help me4M > figure out what is going on or better still point me to documentation whichd- > I can follow to troubleshoot the problem...  > - > Your urgent help would be most appreciated.O >  > Nivc1 The odbc connect string should be something like:o. attach 'filename disk:[directory]database.rdb'  4 The odbc client includes an "odbc test" program that' you can use to check basic connectivity-  6 On the server side check that the database is up using $ rmu/show systeme or who is using it bye $ rmu/show users  " or look at database activity using2 $ rmu/show statistics disk:[directory]database.rdb  4 Have a look at the rdb monitor log file (rdmmon.log)8 or log files called sqlsrvnnnnnnnn.log in [sqlsrv$deflt]  . The server processes may be called generi_nnnn Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:11:38 -0400 2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>G Subject: Re: Problems Creating ODBC Connections to RDB databases on vms)* Message-ID: <3B41D29A.64C83CCC@oracle.com>  1 I believe that the Rdb ODBC drivers are availablen3 from Oracle (I don't work in that particular group g6 of Rdb engineering so I don't know the version numbers2 and status of the components for sure).  I do know6 that I can use ODBC from my PC to access Rdb databases6 (via, for example, EXCEL).  Contact Oracle Rdb support: or browse around on the Rdb web site (www.oracle.com/rdb).   	norm   
 Martyn wrote:  > E > If I remember correctly (and it's been a LOOOONG time). RDB (beforef> > Oracle got it) used to have it's own ODBC driver, there wereG > Windoze,Apple,Dos executables provided in the VMS installation kit. InF > seem to remember that they got dumped into SYS$EXAMPLES or somewhereH > like that and you then had to copy the appropriate image onto your PC.G > It's worth having a look in your SYS$HELP or SYS$EXAMPLES directories E > for any release notes or installation guides for RDB, as there were H > instructions in there explaining how to set it up. If you've still gotF > the installation media you could get the release notes off there and > extract relevant files.Y > F > Best I can do I'm afraid as I don't have access to any RDB stuff any > more.  >  > Best of luck.S > 	 > Martyn.g   -- e> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:36:20 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)- Subject: Re: QBus TK50 controller -- got one?aL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011236200001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleA <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2028@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,s, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  
 > Hi guys. > K > Single, Grey, Almighty MicroVAX II seeks working QBus TK50 controller fore8 > long boot procedures, and the occasional image backup. > N > I've actually just adopted this one.  Her name is Candy (really, she used toM > work at a confectioner's ;).  Her hobbies are running MicroVMS 4.something,b* > and talking to character cell terminals. > L > Anyway, it seems that the tk50 controller that came with this one is shot,K > and I'd like to find a working one.  Does anyone have one they could part  > with?  Please let me know.  F I've heard that TK70 controllers can also handle a TK50 drive, and are! faster.  Don't know if it's true.S  * Alas, I don't have either one to send you.   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:32:46 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)f- Subject: Re: QBus TK50 controller -- got one?w0 Message-ID: <009FE683.F1C039EC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  z In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2028@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:	 >Hi guys.I >EJ >Single, Grey, Almighty MicroVAX II seeks working QBus TK50 controller for7 >long boot procedures, and the occasional image backup.O >sM >I've actually just adopted this one.  Her name is Candy (really, she used to L >work at a confectioner's ;).  Her hobbies are running MicroVMS 4.something,) >and talking to character cell terminals.  >eK >Anyway, it seems that the tk50 controller that came with this one is shot,:J >and I'd like to find a working one.  Does anyone have one they could part >with?  Please let me know.. >n	 >Regards,  >i >Chris >e" >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, ILr >  >/usr/bin/perl -e 'm@ >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' >   I I have several and TK50 transports too.  You're welcome to what you need.h/ Fire off a private email and we can discuss it.  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn            tO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:30:42 -0400x2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Qlogic questionL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011230420001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3b3fde9f$1$lllp186$mr2ice@nntp.mindspring.com>,- yyyc186@mindspring.com wrote:0   > All, > K > I have an Alpha PC164 running VMS and the SRM console.  All was well with I > a pair of 18Gig drives in it.  Today I installed an extra 34Gig drive IuF > had laying around.  No biggie...until I checked the drive size afterI > initing.  Shows up as 8Gig.  When running the FWUPDATE program it loadsLD > the driver for Qlisp10x0.  Is this a known "feature" of the QlogicL > controller?  I have seen other older SCSI controllers which cap out around > 20Gig.  2 What version of VMS?  Are your patches up to date?  E We had trouble with 36 GB drives until we upgraded to VMS 7.1-2 (plusa= patches).  Plain 7.1 doesn't handle newer/bigger drives well.S  J The console might not like the drive.  It might report the wrong size, butG still let VMS use the drive.  It might not be able to boot from a large H drive (though I've never heard of this on an alpha), but the drive might be fine for anything else.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 17:00:37 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.d* Message-ID: <3B41EC25.9B3087D7@uk.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:apcMbq61Rqob@eisner.encompasserve.org...h >  > ...  > 8 >   Part of the rationale behind Alpha getting set asideA > > was a careful study of where IA64 will be in 3-5 years.  TheytE > > concluded the performance differential will be marginal.  You canaC > > call into question that reasoning... but you can bet they spenttC > > time and money on that and know more about McKinley performancewD > > than many outsiders do.  Point is, IA64 will be very competitiveC > > and cheaper than RISCs 2-3 years out.  That is a very bad place / > > to be for non-IA64 platforms 2-3 years out.i >  > ...- >  > as Intel has beenE@ > > promising us it gets much better and IDF in February shockedE > > a few people when they found out how fast McKinley will be going.o > > Who knows about Madisono > ; > Can this truly be the same Rob Young who has made so manyaN > admiring-to-the-point-of-adulation statements about future Alpha performanceI > (especially in comparison to future IA64 performance) for lo these manycK > years?  Are we witnessing a deathbed conversion (so to speak - I hope not 
 > literally)?o >   / Funny isn't it. Rob the most rabid of all anti J- Intel FUDsters with a particular dislike for w' IA-64 has over night become a convert. t  / Circumstances make for very strange bed fellowsl     regards, Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:07:13 -0400e  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.comG Subject: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgrade 4 Message-ID: <C2256A7E.0052D2CE.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  C I am about to upgrade a pair of VAXstation system disk shadow pairsn; so I will have more space before I do the V7.3 s/w upgrade.h It is currently running V6.2.l   The old ones are RZ26L-EN  1GB.   The new ones are RZ28L-EN 2.1GB.  A My first question is about how I should initialize the new disks.0  E I realize the cluster factor will go from 3 (minimum) to 5 (minimum),uD but what are the other values for a system disk that I should use toB override defaults (Things like directories, headers, files, etc.)?  F Then, will this work (of course I'll have a tape backup just in case):  ; break the shadow set by dismounting the non-booting member,t shut down the VAX,& remove/replace the non-booting member,* reboot MIN with a single-volume shadowset, init the new disk,; BACKUP/IMAGE/NO_ALIAS/NOINIT from the _running_ system disk] to the new disk, shut down the VAX  remmove/replace the other disk,OA reboot to the new disk unit number as a single-volume shadow set,sF Check it out, then initiate a shadow-copy to the original boot volume?  > [This will also leave me with "backups" on the removed disks.]      E I am of course concerned that doing the backup on a running, althoughi  B quiet, disk could cause problems, although I've never heard of any  H documented reason it wouldn't work, and seen anocdotal evidence it will.      9 Oh, and it's in a cluster, so how should that be managed?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:36:18 -040072 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)K Subject: Re: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgradepL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0307011136190001@user-2ive7ts.dialup.mindspring.com>  4 In article <C2256A7E.0052D2CE.00@jklh21.valmet.com>,! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:p  E > I am about to upgrade a pair of VAXstation system disk shadow pairsr= > so I will have more space before I do the V7.3 s/w upgrade.- > It is currently running V6.2.l > ! > The old ones are RZ26L-EN  1GB. " > The new ones are RZ28L-EN 2.1GB. > C > My first question is about how I should initialize the new disks.  > G > I realize the cluster factor will go from 3 (minimum) to 5 (minimum),lF > but what are the other values for a system disk that I should use toD > override defaults (Things like directories, headers, files, etc.)?  H VMS is smarter these days, so index file fragmentation is less likely toJ be a problem.  One tactic is to look at the allocated size of your currentA indexf.sys, and initialize the new disk with about that number ofsG headers.  The index file will start off with 1 fragment that can handle.D the worst case in the history of your current disk.  If you do this,H you'll need to BACKUP/NOINIT to keep backup from creating it's own index file on the disk.s  H I've never worried about the max number of files.  Init seems to do fine on its own.o    H > Then, will this work (of course I'll have a tape backup just in case): > = > break the shadow set by dismounting the non-booting member,n > shut down the VAX,( > remove/replace the non-booting member,, > reboot MIN with a single-volume shadowset, > init the new disk,= > BACKUP/IMAGE/NO_ALIAS/NOINIT from the _running_ system disk- > to the new disk,  F I don't like this step.  You won't get a perfect copy.  Better to copy> from an idle disk, even if you have to boot standalone backup.  G If you have room for another disk, put in the new one, then boot with afH single-member shadow set.  Backup the (idle) former shadow set member to
 the new disk.o   > shut down the VAXv! > remmove/replace the other disk,xC > reboot to the new disk unit number as a single-volume shadow set,tH > Check it out, then initiate a shadow-copy to the original boot volume? > @ > [This will also leave me with "backups" on the removed disks.] >  >  > G > I am of course concerned that doing the backup on a running, althought > D > quiet, disk could cause problems, although I've never heard of any > J > documented reason it wouldn't work, and seen anocdotal evidence it will.  F Yes, but booting standalone backup is hardly more trouble than bootingE minimum, and you won't have any doubts.  You'd like to do your backuprB without /IGNORE, and with no warnings about un-copied files. Put aE standalone backup kit on disk before you shut down, if it's not there  already.  ; > Oh, and it's in a cluster, so how should that be managed?   I Dismount the disk in question on all other cluster nodes.  That means any.8 satellites that boot from the disk have to be shut down.   -- g Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:02:34 -0400g  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.comK Subject: Re: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgradeT4 Message-ID: <C2256A7E.0057E376.00@jklh21.valmet.com>   Robert,V   See, below.         3 rdeininger@mindspring.com on 07/03/2001 11:36:21 AM    To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comi cc:eL Subject:  Re: Questions on VAX local (SCSI) shadowed system disk H/W upgrade        K / (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:l / comp.os.vms) /a6 / In article <C2256A7E.0052D2CE.00@jklh21.valmet.com>,# / norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:s /oG / > I am about to upgrade a pair of VAXstation system disk shadow pairsr? / > so I will have more space before I do the V7.3 s/w upgrade.w! / > It is currently running V6.2.  / >r# / > The old ones are RZ26L-EN  1GB. $ / > The new ones are RZ28L-EN 2.1GB. / >QE / > My first question is about how I should initialize the new disks.R / >aI / > I realize the cluster factor will go from 3 (minimum) to 5 (minimum),uH / > but what are the other values for a system disk that I should use toF / > override defaults (Things like directories, headers, files, etc.)? /yJ / VMS is smarter these days, so index file fragmentation is less likely toL / be a problem.  One tactic is to look at the allocated size of your currentC / indexf.sys, and initialize the new disk with about that number ofmI / headers.  The index file will start off with 1 fragment that can handlerF / the worst case in the history of your current disk.  If you do this,J / you'll need to BACKUP/NOINIT to keep backup from creating it's own index / file on the disk.a / J / I've never worried about the max number of files.  Init seems to do fine
 / on its own.. /   # What about cached directory number?i   /nJ / > Then, will this work (of course I'll have a tape backup just in case): / > ? / > break the shadow set by dismounting the non-booting member,  / > shut down the VAX,* / > remove/replace the non-booting member,. / > reboot MIN with a single-volume shadowset, / > init the new disk,     So, remove this, and  > / > BACKUP/IMAGE/NOALIAS/NOINIT from the _running_ system disk / > to the new disk, / H / I don't like this step.  You won't get a perfect copy.  Better to copy@ / from an idle disk, even if you have to boot standalone backup.   Instead insert this:   shut down the VAX, Boot standalone backup,36 BACKUP/IMAGE/NOALIAS/NOINIT from the _old_ system disk to the new disk,    I / If you have room for another disk, put in the new one, then boot with a=J / single-member shadow set.  Backup the (idle) former shadow set member to / the new disk.l  ' I think that only two (2) fit in there.o   / > shut down the VAXc" / > remove/replace the other disk,E / > reboot to the new disk unit number as a single-volume shadow set,hJ / > Check it out, then initiate a shadow-copy to the original boot volume? / >0B / > [This will also leave me with "backups" on the removed disks.] / >m / >  / >eI / > I am of course concerned that doing the backup on a running, although  / >eF / > quiet, disk could cause problems, although I've never heard of any / >0L / > documented reason it wouldn't work, and seen anocdotal evidence it will. /bH / Yes, but booting standalone backup is hardly more trouble than bootingG / minimum, and you won't have any doubts.  You'd like to do your backupuD / without /IGNORE, and with no warnings about un-copied files. Put aG / standalone backup kit on disk before you shut down, if it's not therec
 / already.  ; It has recently been built in anticipation of this process.   ; > Oh, and it's in a cluster, so how should that be managed?a  K / Dismount the disk in question on all other cluster nodes.  That means anyt: / satellites that boot from the disk have to be shut down.   No satellites.  I I do have an issue with the queue manager running, but the files are on a' separate disk.   / -- / Robert Deininger / rdeininger@mindspring.comb  	 Comments?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:10:15 +0100k0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: Sadness* Message-ID: <3B41E057.7D578470@uk.sun.com>   Christof Brass wrote:w > 
 > mulp wrote:i > >r8 > > "Howard S Shubs" <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message: > > news:howard-02D66A.08253522062001@enews.newsguy.com...; > > > In article <01K52W9R6NTE001TY5@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, - > > >  paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:  > > > O > > > > Well, this weekend our corporate believe they have done the right thingj? > > > > and gone to Tru64.  Nice advice, nice money for Compaq.m > > >sL > > > That's the way it's going, yes.  VMS -> UNIX.  It's not a bad thing to
 > > learn,> > > > though VMS is a heck of a lot easier (IMO) to work with. > >nL > > Its rare for customer to go from VMS to Tru64, most go from VMS to unix.P > > Of course, unix is only available from Sun.  Tru64, like AIX, HP/UX, Ultrix,8 > > and so on is just another proprietary unix wanna-be. > >dM > > Just as Microsoft drove out all the *8* (z80, 8080, 8086, yada yada) codefO > > loaders by being focused, Sun is driving out all the varients of unix.  ForiN > > Sun, linux is a bit of a dilemma because it helps kill off unix wanna-bes,M > > but it is also a threat to Solaris.  Still, for Sun, owning the non-LinuxmO > > part of a growing non-Microsoft unix like market is better than being aloneo > > it opposing Microsoft. > @ > SUN is already in a process of dropping Slowaris on SPARC. The" > IA32 version is almost dead now.    4 Really, you have made this assertion before without  backing it up. h  7 So what makes you think that Sun has any intentions to d drop Solaris ??t   regards  Andrew Harrisond Enterprise IT Architects   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:38:53 +0010a% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  Subject: Re: Server up?n5 Message-ID: <01K5I829RHWI0029P6@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>5   Tom Linden wrote:-  ? > Haven't gotten any mail since early this morning.  Are we up?i  L Last night (.au times) my last Info-VAX mail was at 12:30 and no more until L about 9:00 this morning.  Not much during the day either but that is normal.  M Usually that overnight period is when US and Europe are active so I normally .L get about 100 when I get to work in my morning.  These days about 200/300.     Regards, Paddy  c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:45:23 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: Some Questions About BackupL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011245230001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com>  P In article <sb4064f5.072@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote:  N > During the short week I'm working on a system slated to go into production =E > this summer. Today I'm working on backup, and I have some general =P* > questions I'd like to throw out there... > M > 1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, one should =SF > dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount the other =N > privately, and then take a backup. We're a 9 to 5 shop, and aside from the =H > hypothetical problems of backing up a Shadow Set (it might not be in =N > sync), is there any real prevailing reason against just backing it up like =N > a stand alone disk? (BACKUP/MEDIA_FORMAT=3DCOMPACT/RECORD/VERIFY/IGNORE=3D(=A > INTERLOCK,LABEL) DSA100:[000000...]*.*;* MKA600:DSA100.BCK/LOG)>  F That will get you a "regular" backup, whos quality depends on how manyH open and active files there are.  Some of the files on a system disk are) probably never copied perfectly this way.   H For shadowed disks, if can accept the risk of reducing shadow membershipH for the duration of the backup, splitting the shadow set lets you make aF perfect backup copy with the disk still available.  If you have enoughE spares, you can remove a member, and immediately add a spare into the J shadow set.  Back up the former shadow member to tape, and then it becomes
 a spare.    I > 2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backup = K > their System disk every night? I shut the system down and take an Image =xJ > backup once a month - my thinking is that a running system has so many =- > open files you'll never get a clean backup.d  H I do periodic "standalone" backups, and (almost) nightly image backups. F If figure a recent imperfect backup combined with an oldish standalone' backup is better than just the old one.   J I'd like to shadow the system disk, so I could do more frequent standalone backups with minimal downtime.   -- . Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comu   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:16:06 +0000 (UTC)' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)2( Subject: Re: Some Questions About Backup+ Message-ID: <9hqa8m$lui$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>l  Q In article <sb4064f5.072@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:vM >During the short week I'm working on a system slated to go into production =bD >this summer. Today I'm working on backup, and I have some general =) >questions I'd like to throw out there...  >dL >1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, one should =E >dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount the other =dM >privately, and then take a backup. We're a 9 to 5 shop, and aside from the =bG >hypothetical problems of backing up a Shadow Set (it might not be in =aM >sync), is there any real prevailing reason against just backing it up like =tM >a stand alone disk? (BACKUP/MEDIA_FORMAT=3DCOMPACT/RECORD/VERIFY/IGNORE=3D(=t@ >INTERLOCK,LABEL) DSA100:[000000...]*.*;* MKA600:DSA100.BCK/LOG) >a  G Depends what files are open on the disk and what is being done to them. C You may get inconsistencies if files are being actively written to.-M However I believe you run pretty much the same risk when you split the shadow  set.H Backup/ignore=interlock will obviously also take longer than the actual ? shadow split - hence there is more time for a problem to occur.Y  H >2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backup =J >their System disk every night? I shut the system down and take an Image =I >backup once a month - my thinking is that a running system has so many =5, >open files you'll never get a clean backup. >f  ? I have hardly ever done a standalone backup of the system disk.e I just do backup/ign=interlock.pI In 15 years I've only had a problem once. That just involved losing some  " information in the queue database.I Remember it is only files which are being written to that are a potential M problem. Just about all the open files on the system disk are just being read  from not written to.    I >3) ::SIGH:: Oracle. Now that my Oracle tablespaces are spread across a = L >bunch of disks, let's pretend I want all of a single instance in a single =D >save set. For a database called DB_FOO I have the following layout: >s >DSA100:[DB_FOO] >DSA200:[DB_FOO] >DSA300:[DB_FOO] >DSA400:[DB_FOO] >DSA500:[DB_FOO] >DSA600:[DB_FOO] >nK >Is there a way to create one saveset on tape called DB_FOO that contains =w >[DB_FOO...] from each disk? >s   Forget this !!  5 The saveset does not record the device information !!t< Hence when you come to restore you will be in big trouble !!    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >vM >I did manage to create a BACKUP account with the recommended quotas. It is =c
 >much faster.- >- >Thanks in Advance,a >John, >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:47:42 +0100o  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com( Subject: Re: Some Questions About BackupH Message-ID: <OFC154529A.5A68191E-ON80256A7E.00348E16@qedi.quintiles.com>   John Eisenschmidt asked:C >1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, onetD >should dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount theB >other privately, and then take a backup. We're a 9 to 5 shop, andD >aside from the hypothetical problems of backing up a Shadow Set (itC >might not be in sync), is there any real prevailing reason against , >just backing it up like a stand alone disk?D >(BACKUP/MEDIA_FORMAT=COMPACT/RECORD/VERIFY/IGNORE=(INTERLOCK,LABEL)0 > DSA100:[000000...]*.*;* MKA600:DSA100.BCK/LOG)  I I can't think of any specific reason in your case for taking a member outhK of the shadow set to do the backups.  If you needed maximum availability ofiE your application and the backup window just wouldn't be an acceptableTG period for your application to be down then I would possibly reduce thee; shadowset.  For a 9to5 shop, I would back up the shadowset.u  F >2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backupH >their System disk every night? I shut the system down and take an ImageG >backup once a month - my thinking is that a running system has so many , >open files you'll never get a clean backup.H Depends upon what changes.  For a system disk which does not contain theJ authorization files and which stays fairly static then no, I wouldn't do a nightly backup. I On the other hand, if your database administrators have the startup files,I or configuration files or something for your databases on the system disknG then I'd do a backup of it every night - you just don't want to have to H recreate the changes if you get into a Disaster Recovery situation or anI "Oh dear, my system disk just failed and I have to replace it" situation.rH I changed this site from doing occasional backups of the system disk  toB doing nightly backups of the system disk about 12 months ago.  TheJ authorization database is on the system disk shadowset so it seemed like a reasonable thing to do.   G >3) ::SIGH:: Oracle. Now that my Oracle tablespaces are spread across aoC >bunch of disks, let's pretend I want all of a single instance in alK >single save set. For a database called DB_FOO I have the following layout:  >t >DSA100:[DB_FOO] >DSA200:[DB_FOO] >DSA300:[DB_FOO] >DSA400:[DB_FOO] >DSA500:[DB_FOO] >DSA600:[DB_FOO] >a@ >Is there a way to create one saveset on tape called DB_FOO that% >contains [DB_FOO...] from each disk?hI Maybe (but I'm not sure of it) but more importantly, do you _really_ wantiB to do that?  If one shadowset fails due to a controller error or aG misplaced DELETE *.*;* then it might be better to just skip through therK tape using the SET MAGTAPE/SKIP rather than scanning one big saveset (whichc" might suffer from bit-rot anyway).J Spreading the tablespaces across multiple spindles is good practice thoughK since it should (in theory and depending upon disk load, read/write balancebD yadda yadda yadda) enable faster access to the data that are in your! database.  As usual though, YMMV.    Steve.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 15:16:00 -0700m) From: google@mccready.com (Gary McCready)P( Subject: Re: Some Questions About Backup= Message-ID: <6e64ea70.0107021415.58256f75@posting.google.com>u  V John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in message news:<sb4064f5.072@aaas.org>... >...L > 1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, one should E > dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount the other t( > privately, and then take a backup. ...  C That is the safe, and conservative way to do it; the bottom line isuD that if no files are modified between the start of all your backups,? and the end, then you can probably backup the disks without theaC deshadow. Of course, you would not want to backup database files inm- any case if the database still had them open.    > H > 2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backup $ > their System disk every night? ...  C Can't hurt if you have the time and tape. Depends on how much mightiB change on the system disk; i.e. if your sysuaf is on the disk, andE lots of folks change passwords each day, you might want to back up atID least that file daily. I'd do a standalone somewheres between once aE month, and once a quarter, if for no other reason than to reboot your ) system to make sure it is still bootable.t  I > 3) ::SIGH:: Oracle. Now that my Oracle tablespaces are spread across a  L > bunch of disks, let's pretend I want all of a single instance in a single E > save set. For a database called DB_FOO I have the following layout:- >  > DSA100:[DB_FOO]u > DSA200:[DB_FOO]2 > DSA300:[DB_FOO]o > DSA400:[DB_FOO]y > DSA500:[DB_FOO]Q > DSA600:[DB_FOO]a  9 Not *REALLY* good idea, unless the directories are called6 [DB_FOO_100] [Db_FOO_200]F etc.., so you can figure out where to put them when you try to restoreA them (note, for the restore, you will need to issue the command 6jF times, unless you have a really large scratch disk to restore them to)   --Gary McCready 3 (My opinions have nothing to do with my employer's)    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:30:53 GMT2) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)m( Subject: Re: Some Questions About Backup1 Message-ID: <3b410fd8.431416474@news.wcc.govt.nz>o  5 On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:11:17 -0400, John Eisenschmidtw <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote:  M >During the short week I'm working on a system slated to go into production =ED >this summer. Today I'm working on backup, and I have some general =) >questions I'd like to throw out there...l >eL >1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, one should =E >dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount the other =TM >privately, and then take a backup. We're a 9 to 5 shop, and aside from the =,G >hypothetical problems of backing up a Shadow Set (it might not be in =iM >sync), is there any real prevailing reason against just backing it up like =eM >a stand alone disk? (BACKUP/MEDIA_FORMAT=3DCOMPACT/RECORD/VERIFY/IGNORE=3D(= @ >INTERLOCK,LABEL) DSA100:[000000...]*.*;* MKA600:DSA100.BCK/LOG) > F I think it's more important to assess what the applications are doing.F Splitting the Shadow Sets and doing backup while the application is up) may still yield an inconsistent data set.fF If you can close down all the applications, your disks are effectively9 quiesced and splitting the shadow sets becomes redundant. 6 There's not one rule for all situations unfortunately.  H >2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backup =J >their System disk every night? I shut the system down and take an Image =I >backup once a month - my thinking is that a running system has so many = , >open files you'll never get a clean backup. >sA No, I do mine monthly, but then again I have migrated Queue & UAFwC Files off the System Disk. So, the System Disk does not change thatf- much. Plus extra Backups before any upgrades. + I do split the shadow sets for this backup.dD Note that even this is not the fully "supported" way of backing up aE System Disk. That, I believe, is still only Standalone Backup. (which # makes a mockery of 24x7 operation).mA You might just augment your montly backup with a copy of selected  changeable files.   I >3) ::SIGH:: Oracle. Now that my Oracle tablespaces are spread across a =rL >bunch of disks, let's pretend I want all of a single instance in a single =D >save set. For a database called DB_FOO I have the following layout: >i >DSA100:[DB_FOO] >DSA200:[DB_FOO] >DSA300:[DB_FOO] >DSA400:[DB_FOO] >DSA500:[DB_FOO] >DSA600:[DB_FOO] > % No idea, only worked with Oracle RDB. K >Is there a way to create one saveset on tape called DB_FOO that contains =s >[DB_FOO...] from each disk? >y > M >I did manage to create a BACKUP account with the recommended quotas. It is =.
 >much faster.t >o >Thanks in Advance,p >Johnd >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:34:50 -0400l+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>d( Subject: Re: Some Questions About Backup# Message-ID: <sb41ade7.077@aaas.org>   J So uh...I think I got a little over zealous with the quotas on my backup =L account. I just bugcheck the system while trying to do a test backup...."In=K sufficient Nonpaged Pool".  Other than turning up the PGFLQUO, I followed =tE the instruction in the backup manual on calculating the parameters. =o Thought?  L Thanks to every who responded to the first message. I've decided to backup =H the system disk, take backups of the shadow set as is, and not to muck =# with concatinating the save set.=20    System:- WSMAX =3D 524288 CHANNELCNT =3D 4700    $ mcr authorizek UAF> sh backup9 Username: BACKUP                           Owner:  BACKUPeC Account:  BACKUP                           UIC:    [1,6] ([BACKUP]) < CLI:      DCL                              Tables: DCLTABLES Default:  DSA100:[USERS.BACKUP]r( LGICMD:   DSA100:[USERS.BACKUP]LOGIN.COM Flags:# Primary days:   Mon Tue Wed Thu Frii+ Secondary days:                     Sat Sunt No access restrictionsD Expiration:            (none)    Pwdminimum:  8   Login Fails:     0> Pwdlifetime:           (none)    Pwdchange:      (pre-expired)L Last Login:  3-JUL-2001 11:02 (interactive),  2-JUL-2001 13:56 (non-interac= tive) 9 Maxjobs:         0  Fillm:      4000  Bytlm:      1096000o9 Maxacctjobs:     0  Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:           0c9 Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:      4000  JTquota:      10240 9 Prclm:          10  DIOlm:     12000  WSdef:         2000e9 Prio:            4  ASTlm:     12100  WSquo:       524288t9 Queprio:         0  TQElm:        50  WSextent:    524288l9 CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      4100  Pgflquo:    1000000y Authorized Privileges:I   ACNT         ALLSPOOL     ALTPRI       AUDIT        BUGCHK       BYPASSlH   CMEXEC       CMKRNL       DIAGNOSE     DOWNGRADE    EXQUOTA      GROUPH   GRPNAM       GRPPRV       IMPERSONATE  IMPORT       LOG_IO       MOUNTI   NETMBX       OPER         PFNMAP       PHY_IO       PRMCEB       PRMGBLnI   SHMEM        SYSGBL       SYSLCK       SYSNAM       SYSPRV       TMPMBXR!   UPGRADE      VOLPRO       WORLDa Default Privileges:oI   ACNT         ALLSPOOL     ALTPRI       AUDIT        BUGCHK       BYPASSeH   CMEXEC       CMKRNL       DIAGNOSE     DOWNGRADE    EXQUOTA      GROUPH   GRPNAM       GRPPRV       IMPERSONATE  IMPORT       LOG_IO       MOUNTI   NETMBX       OPER         PFNMAP       PHY_IO       PRMCEB       PRMGBLnH   PRMMBX       PSWAPM       READALL      SECURITY     SETPRV       SHAREI   SHMEM        SYSGBL       SYSLCK       SYSNAM       SYSPRV       TMPMBX !   UPGRADE      VOLPRO       WORLD   A >>> Rob Buxton <rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz> 07/02/2001 8:30:53 PM >>> 5 On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:11:17 -0400, John Eisenschmidta <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote:  L >During the short week I'm working on a system slated to go into production=  =3DF >this summer. Today I'm working on backup, and I have some general =3D) >questions I'd like to throw out there...- >-L >1) I've read several places that when backing up a Shadow Set, one should = =3DoG >dismount the Shadow Set, remount it with one disk, mount the other =3DDI >privately, and then take a backup. We're a 9 to 5 shop, and aside from =t the =3D0I >hypothetical problems of backing up a Shadow Set (it might not be in =3DgH >sync), is there any real prevailing reason against just backing it up = like =3DK >a stand alone disk? (BACKUP/MEDIA_FORMAT=3D3DCOMPACT/RECORD/VERIFY/IGNORE=i	 =3D3D(=3D @ >INTERLOCK,LABEL) DSA100:[000000...]*.*;* MKA600:DSA100.BCK/LOG) >aF I think it's more important to assess what the applications are doing.F Splitting the Shadow Sets and doing backup while the application is up) may still yield an inconsistent data set.hF If you can close down all the applications, your disks are effectively9 quiesced and splitting the shadow sets becomes redundant. 6 There's not one rule for all situations unfortunately.  J >2) This may sound stupider than my usual fare, but does anyone backup =3DJ >their System disk every night? I shut the system down and take an Image = =3DdI >backup once a month - my thinking is that a running system has so many =a =3De, >open files you'll never get a clean backup. >wA No, I do mine monthly, but then again I have migrated Queue & UAFoC Files off the System Disk. So, the System Disk does not change thatt- much. Plus extra Backups before any upgrades.d+ I do split the shadow sets for this backup.rD Note that even this is not the fully "supported" way of backing up aE System Disk. That, I believe, is still only Standalone Backup. (whichs# makes a mockery of 24x7 operation).tA You might just augment your montly backup with a copy of selectedm changeable files.I  I >3) ::SIGH:: Oracle. Now that my Oracle tablespaces are spread across a =n =3DtL >bunch of disks, let's pretend I want all of a single instance in a single = =3D D >save set. For a database called DB_FOO I have the following layout: >  >DSA100:[DB_FOO] >DSA200:[DB_FOO] >DSA300:[DB_FOO] >DSA400:[DB_FOO] >DSA500:[DB_FOO] >DSA600:[DB_FOO] >e% No idea, only worked with Oracle RDB.kK >Is there a way to create one saveset on tape called DB_FOO that contains =- =3Do >[DB_FOO...] from each disk? >r >.J >I did manage to create a BACKUP account with the recommended quotas. It = is =3D
 >much faster.@ >h >Thanks in Advance,2 >Johnc >R   ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:02:37 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>7 Subject: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORDe6 Message-ID: <200107030602.IAA11903@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  5 every day in the week we start an incremental backup rG (BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD) on every node within the cluster. The mostaC days the incremental backup woks, as it should. Only new or changedhC files are saved. But one day in the week (not every time the same),yE backup saves a lot of files, never changed since 1997. We do not knowh@ why. I did noy found any explaination of this behavior. Is there anaybody who can help?   Regards Rudolf Wingert   P.S. OS: OpenVMS 7.1-2 AXP   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:13:52 -0400O> From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>; Subject: RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD M Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D0160218A@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>t  K Perhaps someone is doing $ SET FILE/TRUNCATE on your disk volumes every nowuG and again, but I believe this would show the files as modified.  Just ae thought. :)t   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadwayi Albany, NY  12204a USAu 518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.come  * "I post personal opinion only, and all the* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my* views in no way represent my employer(s)."   > -----Original Message-----/ > From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fgan.de]d& > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:03 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh9 > Subject: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORDt >  >  > Hello, > 7 > every day in the week we start an incremental backup a8 > (BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD) on every node within the  > cluster. The mostaE > days the incremental backup woks, as it should. Only new or changedaE > files are saved. But one day in the week (not every time the same), G > backup saves a lot of files, never changed since 1997. We do not knowDB > why. I did noy found any explaination of this behavior. Is there > anaybody who can help? >  > Regards Rudolf Wingert >  > P.S. OS: OpenVMS 7.1-2 AXP >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:52:46 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>; Subject: Re: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORDi4 Message-ID: <1010703032755.342E-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Rudolf Wingert wrote:t   > Hello, > 7 > every day in the week we start an incremental backup AI > (BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD) on every node within the cluster. The mostaE > days the incremental backup woks, as it should. Only new or changed E > files are saved. But one day in the week (not every time the same),jG > backup saves a lot of files, never changed since 1997. We do not know8B > why. I did noy found any explaination of this behavior. Is there > anaybody who can help? >  > Regards Rudolf Wingert >  > P.S. OS: OpenVMS 7.1-2 AXP  G If a directory has changed, then all files in it and any subdirectoriestH are included in the backup.  If the root directory [000000] has changed,A then all the files on that disk are included in the "incremental"e backup.   D If you do a "$ directory/date=(mod,back)" of the root directory fileC (disk:[000000]000000.dir) and all the other directories in the path)F to one of the unmodified files that is getting included in the backup,C you will probably see one that has been modified more recently thano the last incremental backup.  @ Sometimes the directory modification is legitimate (i.e. renamedF the directory, changed its ownership or protection or version default,F etc.) and sometimes it is spurious (i.e. the directory was truncated.)F When an incremental backup is restored, the directories are re-createdE from the information on the saveset and not merely blindly copied, sotD in most cases, it is not necessary to save all the files in the tree@ under that directory to restore it correctly.  It is (or can be)G necessary if the directory was renamed, but not for most other changes.o  D If you know the directories weren't renamed or if you are willing toE repair the damage after the restore, then you can force BACKUP to usetB its old (pre-V6.2) behaviour.  (I think the damage consists mostlyA or there being a chance that you end up with two directories, one E with the old name and one with the new name, and some of the files ineC each.  However, in cleaning up deleted files, backup may decide allrD the files in the old directory were deleted, and so delete them fromB the new disk.  If it does this, you should be able to restore them@ from the original image backup and any incrementals prior to the@ rename by using a selective file restore.  Painful but possible.B I think there is also the possibility of it restoring stuff twice,B once under the old directory and once under the new directory, andC if enough files fall in this catagory, you could fill up the output  disk during the restore.)O  C The method of forcing backup to use the old behaviour (which was to @ ignore the modification date on directories and go solely by theB mod date on the files), differs depending on the VMS version.  ForD some versions, you had to either force an update of all directories'A mod dates by doing a dummy "backup/record disk:[000000...]*.dir;1IC nla0:dummy.sav/saveset" or by defining a logical name.  HELP/BACKUPEA may tell you what to do.  For VMS V7.2, there is a new qualifier,g@ /NOINCREMENTAL, that does this.  For VMS V7.3, /NOINCREMENTAL isF ignored when uses with /SINCE=BACKUP, thus defeating its only purpose.  @ Also, VMS V7.3 (both VAX and Alpha) and VMS V7.2-1 (Alpha) after@ applying an F11X ECO change the modification date on a directoryB whenever it is expanded or compressed, which happens automaticallyB whenever files are created or deleted.  It doesn't happen on everyA file creation or deletion, only when a directory block is filled, > which triggers an expansion, or when it is completely emptied,E which triggers a compression.  Since there are holes in the directoryd? where files can be inserted without expansion, it is impossibleg= in general to predict when this will happen (without intimateaB knowledge of diectory internals), so this behaviour is effectively random.,   -- t John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:33:35 +0100s8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>; Subject: RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFED@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  I Since VMS 6.1 (I think) BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP often backups many more files D than you would expect. This change is mentioned in the release notesK (somewhere) and the reason for it is to ensure that restore operations willi: work in some odd situations which previously did not work.  F On busy systems you may have to increase the frequency of full (image) backups.  8 It's not a bug, just an irritating change in behaviour.    John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:50:19 +0100 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>; Subject: RE: Strange behavior of BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP/RECORD N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFEE@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  ; > you can force BACKUP to use its old (pre-V6.2) behaviour.0  I I wasn't aware that there was any way of avoiding the "unnecessary" fileshL being backed up but I have to say that I haven't experimented with BACKUP inH VMS 7.1 although I did report the "problem" to VMS support when it firstJ appeared and was told that that was how backup ensured that restored wouldI always work and that the apparentlty unnecessary files were a new fact ofw life with BACKUP.   L The /ALIAS qualifier will make BACKUP make multiple backup copies of aliasedH directories making the situation worse in some cases: backing up of moreH files than apparently required based on dates occurs even on disks which have no alias directories. u   John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:15:29 GMTh& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>7 Subject: Symposium: CETS-2001 content development inputp7 Message-ID: <R0907.180$ei5.138778@typhoon2.gnilink.net>y  ? http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001PhaseICATReport.pdfd@ http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001PhaseIICATReport.pdf@ http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/SpecialDevelopmentTracks.pdf   ...or...  ? http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001PhaseICATReport.rtf.@ http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001PhaseIICATReport.rtf@ http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/SpecialDevelopmentTracks.rtf    I The first two reports are the Phase I and Phase II reports being used forgI content development.  The 3rd report is the special tracks that are beingnH developed in addition to and NOT in place of the standard tracks such as Tru64, OpenVMS, and ProLiant.e  @ Information on CETS-2001 can be found at http://www.CETS2001.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 15:42:38 GMTo& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>< Subject: Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format8 Message-ID: <OJl07.6404$%n6.484471@typhoon1.gnilink.net>  6 http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001RegKit.pdf  ( General Web Site http://www.cets2001.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:16:52 -0400a  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com@ Subject: Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format4 Message-ID: <C2256A7E.005931BA.00@jklh21.valmet.com>   Jeff,   > This still shows the hotel rates lower than are being charged. Where are you on that effort?e   -Norme      ! Please respond to Jeff@idm-io.come   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comt cc:i= Subject:  Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF formate        6 http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001RegKit.pdf  ( General Web Site http://www.cets2001.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 17:27:42 GMTh& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>@ Subject: Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF format8 Message-ID: <ign07.1840$ei5.532541@typhoon2.gnilink.net>   No answers until next week...a  - <norm.raphael@jamesbury.com> wrote in message-. news:C2256A7E.005931BA.00@jklh21.valmet.com... >0 >1 > Jeff,0 >l@ > This still shows the hotel rates lower than are being charged. > Where are you on that effort?D >s > -Norm7 >a >o > # > Please respond to Jeff@idm-io.come >e > To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comk > cc:c? > Subject:  Symposium: CETS-2001 Reg Kit in 8.5 x 11 PDF formatp >. >= >u >c8 > http://www.cets2001.com/privatedocs/CETS2001RegKit.pdf >l* > General Web Site http://www.cets2001.com >o >a >l >n   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 08:46:51 -0500e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y0 Subject: Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business!3 Message-ID: <7Yoy4etfqzev@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3B3CE488.9B65021F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  # > Was in in that episode where Kirkn  B Kirk talked more computers into commiting suicide than Bill Gates.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationP= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupdE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingi   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:56:30 GMT:= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 0 Subject: Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business!0 Message-ID: <009FE737.4763626E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <7Yoy4etfqzev@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes::] >In article <3B3CE488.9B65021F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  > $ >> Was in in that episode where Kirk >1C >Kirk talked more computers into commiting suicide than Bill Gates.x  G That's because those computers were not running Weendblows.  Had LandruyG been running Weendblows, the civilization on that planet would have had H to evolve into three-fingers aliens so that they could depress the CTRL-2 ALT-DEL keys every time Landru got a GPF headache.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.P   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:11:51 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid< Message-ID: <Hi%%6.1467$9r6.1986090@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  0 "Paul DeMone" <pdemone@igs.net> wrote in message  news:3B4009FA.6BDDE25@igs.net... >O >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > [...]B > K > > That should be intuitively obvious. After almost a decade the installed  baseL > > of Alpha systems is under 1M. And the annual system run rate is 100K, if CPQR
 > > is lucky.  > L >   How much of the total Alpha market does Compaq comprise? In other words,: >   how important are APIN, Samsung, and the various OEMs?  G Just a guesstimate, but I'd say Compaq has got to represent at least 90sB percent of the market. APIN marketed about as well as DEC did, the/ Samsung/APIN UP-boards all have been late, etc.s >d > > H > > What killed Alpha? Marketing malfeasance and Stupid Strategy Tricks. Pure > > and simple.h >dA >   Indeed, what kind of oafs can't market the fastest 64 bit MPU   >   after 8 years in the market?  H You got that right! I think Compaq's done a reasonably good job over theJ past year or so with its Alpha marketing resources, but the damage already had been done.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:06:40 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>E" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid( Message-ID: <9hqk1m$dpa$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messaget6 news:Hi%%6.1467$9r6.1986090@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > 2 > "Paul DeMone" <pdemone@igs.net> wrote in message" > news:3B4009FA.6BDDE25@igs.net...   ...n  C > >   Indeed, what kind of oafs can't market the fastest 64 bit MPUa" > >   after 8 years in the market? >dJ > You got that right! I think Compaq's done a reasonably good job over theL > past year or so with its Alpha marketing resources, but the damage already > had been done.  K IIRC Tru64 servers have passed HP/UX servers to move into 3rd place (behind E SUN and IBM); whether that's due to increased penetration by Tru64 or') fall-off in HP/UX, or both, I don't know.m  J But to suggest that VMS marketing has been 'reasonably good' is absurd.  II would guess (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that VMS is (unless itbJ has withered significantly in the past couple of years) the primary (or atL least a very significant) vehicle for Alpha profit, hence the primary (or atL least a very significant) criterion by which one should judge the quality of Alpha marketing.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:16:01 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid( Message-ID: <9hqkj6$e94$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Werner Brockhoven" <werner.brockhoven@no.spam> wrote in message+ news:BSY%6.321$rc5.8506@news.cpqcorp.net...y >:4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9hpk9f$e0j$1@pyrite.mv.net... > >DD > > "Werner Brockhoven" <werner.brockhoven@no.spam> wrote in message/ > > news:hdY%6.319$rc5.8531@news.cpqcorp.net... 8 > > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message( > > > news:9hlsnc$om2$1@pyrite.mv.net...J > > > > In an attempt to climb out of the hole it jumped into last Monday,
 > > CompaqC > > > > has apparently been energetically leaking information (from1	 employees0L > > > > purporting to speak on their behalf) about Intel's having internallyK > > > > perceived the error of its ways and now wishing to fix the problems. in > > the L > > > > IA64 architecture by enlisting much or all of the Alpha architecture > in	 > > > the)J > > > > service of the IA64 instruction set.  Particularly explicit quotes > > > include: > > > >wI > > > > From a Compaq employee in comp.os.linux.alpha (6/26 4:48 A.M. EDTs andy > > 6/28 > > > > 4:03 A.M. EDT):r > > >d# > > > Wow thanks for quoting me. :)d > > >f> > > > But next time have the balls to also include the source. > >lH > > I did (see the times above, which more than adequately identify it).H > > Leaving off your name was a matter of tact:  I thought you might not wish > toG > > be thought an idiot by people who didn't bother following up on theB > > reference. > >C
 > > - bill >DK > Well people who follow this ng would have figured it out anyway.  BTW thepH > contents of both quotes is publicly available information.  Since when does' > that count as "leaking information" ?s  G I'd really appreciate a pointer to this publicly available information,&J since I've been looking for some formal statement by Compaq (or preferablyG Intel) that future IA64 implementations would be based on EV8 internalssG rather than EPIC (since the two are said to be relatively immiscible) -tL especially one that claims this new technology will be released in about 2.5 years.  J And I apologize for responding a bit harshly:  I had been up all night andL simply replied in kind to what I construed as a harsh response on your part.   - bill   >e
 > Regards, >C > Werner >K > > >R > > > Regards, > > >  > > > Werner > > >w > > > <snip> > > >m > > >a > >a > >B >U >I   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:19:15 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid3 Message-ID: <+TC5yEWVG76Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  q In article <ZFb07.398996$eK2.81072129@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>, "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> writes:aA > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagee6 > news:_lb07.709$tH1.512983@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...: >> > In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX? >> >> Clustering, for one.o > B > Now, there are two separate meanings for clustering. There's theC > load-balancing type clustering, where multiple nodes run the same H > applications and share tasks with each other simultaneously to work onH > bigger workloads. Then there is the failover type clustering, where it= > simply a high-availability option. Which one is cited here?s  C Certainly the latter is not clustering, just a form of hot-standby. 2 Even Microsoft claims to be able to do the latter.  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:30:31 GMTp0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <XJ507.395273$eK2.80446274@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hqk1m$dpa$1@pyrite.mv.net...E > IIRC Tru64 servers have passed HP/UX servers to move into 3rd placei (behindeG > SUN and IBM); whether that's due to increased penetration by Tru64 ore+ > fall-off in HP/UX, or both, I don't know.   L When did that happen? HP/UX was far, far up the absolute rankings from Tru64 the last time I looked.        Yousuf Khano   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:55:24 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid( Message-ID: <9hqtu3$nq3$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ; "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> wrote in messages8 news:XJ507.395273$eK2.80446274@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9hqk1m$dpa$1@pyrite.mv.net...G > > IIRC Tru64 servers have passed HP/UX servers to move into 3rd placee	 > (behind I > > SUN and IBM); whether that's due to increased penetration by Tru64 orK- > > fall-off in HP/UX, or both, I don't know.h > H > When did that happen? HP/UX was far, far up the absolute rankings from Tru64c > the last time I looked.n  I If I had a solid reference, I would have given it:  just something I readcK recently from some at least semi-credible source, but I can't vouch for it.oK Note, though, that it is specific to servers, not general Unix penetration.    - bill   >t >     Yousuf Khanm   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:55 -0400( From: "JJ" <john.jemiolo@mindspring.com>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid2 Message-ID: <9hr5ep$jjs$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>   It was a report done by IDC.   JJ  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hqtu3$nq3$1@pyrite.mv.net... >i= > "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> wrote in message : > news:XJ507.395273$eK2.80446274@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...6 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message& > > news:9hqk1m$dpa$1@pyrite.mv.net...I > > > IIRC Tru64 servers have passed HP/UX servers to move into 3rd placer > > (behindeK > > > SUN and IBM); whether that's due to increased penetration by Tru64 orv/ > > > fall-off in HP/UX, or both, I don't know.E > > J > > When did that happen? HP/UX was far, far up the absolute rankings from > Tru64d > > the last time I looked.N >MK > If I had a solid reference, I would have given it:  just something I readsI > recently from some at least semi-credible source, but I can't vouch forl it.a@ > Note, though, that it is specific to servers, not general Unix penetration. >c > - bill >i > >p > >     Yousuf Khanh >v >f >s   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 08:35:18 -0500r+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)l" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid3 Message-ID: <alxQ0RAo2HBL@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  q In article <ZFb07.398996$eK2.81072129@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>, "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> writes: A > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagew6 > news:_lb07.709$tH1.512983@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...: >> > In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX? >> >> Clustering, for one.9 > B > Now, there are two separate meanings for clustering. There's theC > load-balancing type clustering, where multiple nodes run the samecH > applications and share tasks with each other simultaneously to work onH > bigger workloads. Then there is the failover type clustering, where it= > simply a high-availability option. Which one is cited here?  >   A 	Failover clustering isn't clustering.  The failover box could gosA 	away for a weeks vacation and if nothing happened to the primarysC 	everything would be okay.  If resources are being shared (a better > 	definition of clustering), a box going away may not be a good0 	thing (if you are teetering above a threshold).  ? 	Prior to failover becoming widely available, we had a customerE@ 	that had two RS/6000s.  One primary, and one backup that sat in@ 	a closet.  They would periodically run a fire drill by wheeling= 	the box out of the closet and plugging it in to the storage,-@ 	simulating a failed primary.  That paradigm has advanced to the= 	point whereby you can leave it plugged in and have nice PerlR0 	scripts to failover your application(s).  Cute.   				RobD   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:38:49 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid: Message-ID: <Zea07.648$tH1.457499@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  3 "JJ" <john.jemiolo@mindspring.com> wrote in messageB, news:9hr5ep$jjs$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net... > It was a report done by IDC.   Feel better now?   hehehehe   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:39:17 GMTe0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <pfa07.397860$eK2.80895420@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  3 "JJ" <john.jemiolo@mindspring.com> wrote in message , news:9hr5ep$jjs$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net... > It was a report done by IDC. >d > JJ  5 In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX?n       Yousuf Khanm   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:06:52 GMTr0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <Mrj07.402598$eK2.81551047@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:alxQ0RAo2HBL@eisner.encompasserve.org... B > Failover clustering isn't clustering.  The failover box could goB > away for a weeks vacation and if nothing happened to the primaryD > everything would be okay.  If resources are being shared (a better? > definition of clustering), a box going away may not be a goods1 > thing (if you are teetering above a threshold).d  L Sun, HP, and Veritas would beg to differ with you. I assume IBM's clusteringJ is exactly the same definition too, though I don't know too much about the
 IBM world.  J There is a form of asymmetric load-balancing going on in a product such asI Veritas Cluster Server. Basically, you can have upto 32 nodes in a single K cluster, all running different applications, and if one of the nodes fails,6L the application can fail over to another box, which might already be runningI a different application. There is load balancing in the sense that all of1H the boxes are busy running a few applications, and when one of the nodesJ goes down the other nodes take over its applications, increasing their own loads temporarily.  @ > Prior to failover becoming widely available, we had a customerA > that had two RS/6000s.  One primary, and one backup that sat in-A > a closet.  They would periodically run a fire drill by wheelingj> > the box out of the closet and plugging it in to the storage,A > simulating a failed primary.  That paradigm has advanced to the>> > point whereby you can leave it plugged in and have nice Perl1 > scripts to failover your application(s).  Cute.r  L All in all, most clustering software is basically a glorified version of the old Perl scripts.s       Yousuf KhanK   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:54:34 GMTE4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid: Message-ID: <_lb07.709$tH1.512983@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  ; "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> wrote in message 8 news:pfa07.397860$eK2.80895420@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...5 > "JJ" <john.jemiolo@mindspring.com> wrote in messagek. > news:9hr5ep$jjs$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...  > > It was a report done by IDC. > >1 > > JJ >.7 > In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX?t   Clustering, for one.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 04:15:53 GMTl0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <ZFb07.398996$eK2.81072129@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message 4 news:_lb07.709$tH1.512983@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...9 > > In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX?0 >0 > Clustering, for one.  @ Now, there are two separate meanings for clustering. There's theA load-balancing type clustering, where multiple nodes run the sameeF applications and share tasks with each other simultaneously to work onF bigger workloads. Then there is the failover type clustering, where it; simply a high-availability option. Which one is cited here?        Yousuf Khan-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:45:13 GMT 0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <dfi07.402491$eK2.81478635@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hrk76$he9$1@pyrite.mv.net...L > My guess is that the kind of clustering Terry's referring to involves bothJ > high-availability and scalability, since that's what TruClusters tend toL > support.  Though HP/UX may offer some form of clustering as well, possibly  > based on the Veritas software.  I HP has offered its own ServiceGuard software for clustering for ages. Andz8 Veritas Cluster Server software is also available on it.  G Veritas Cluster Server also works with Sun, but Sun also offers its Suns Cluster.   They are all HA type clusters.       Yousuf Khan    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:45:13 GMTz0 From: "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam>" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid> Message-ID: <dfi07.402492$eK2.81478491@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:+TC5yEWVG76Q@eisner.encompasserve.org... D > > Now, there are two separate meanings for clustering. There's theE > > load-balancing type clustering, where multiple nodes run the same5J > > applications and share tasks with each other simultaneously to work onJ > > bigger workloads. Then there is the failover type clustering, where it? > > simply a high-availability option. Which one is cited here?3 >0E > Certainly the latter is not clustering, just a form of hot-standby. 4 > Even Microsoft claims to be able to do the latter.  I Well, it's the form of clustering that is prevalent in HP-UX and Solaris.nB Though in both cases Veritas is beginning to build in some form ofL simultaneous operations capability, where you will have the ability to shareJ disks simultaneously between multiple nodes in a cluster. The inability toJ share disks simultaneously has been the big impediment to total clusteringJ so far. If you can maintain file system integrity without having to recodeC applications, then you have made it one step closer to load-sharingn	 clusters.i       Yousuf Khan    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:23:05 GMTe+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>e" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid) Message-ID: <usngehz1y.fsf@earthlink.net>r  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:s   > A > 	Prior to failover becoming widely available, we had a customer-B > 	that had two RS/6000s.  One primary, and one backup that sat inB > 	a closet.  They would periodically run a fire drill by wheeling? > 	the box out of the closet and plugging it in to the storage,nB > 	simulating a failed primary.  That paradigm has advanced to the? > 	point whereby you can leave it plugged in and have nice Perl 2 > 	scripts to failover your application(s).  Cute. > 	 > 				Robe  D we had fallover announced and shipping in mid-90 on 6000 and variousF kinds of cluster in '92 (although it was running earlier in some sites prior to general availability).   @ we had both done various mainframe cluster projects in the '70s.   misc. refs:e& http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13& http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40& http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#50a( http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#4) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45n/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmpe. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone   -- iH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 10:01:29 -0500r+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)r" Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid3 Message-ID: <5EmdHtWzu9oH@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  q In article <Mrj07.402598$eK2.81551047@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>, "Yousuf Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> writes:A   > A >> Prior to failover becoming widely available, we had a customercB >> that had two RS/6000s.  One primary, and one backup that sat inB >> a closet.  They would periodically run a fire drill by wheeling? >> the box out of the closet and plugging it in to the storage, B >> simulating a failed primary.  That paradigm has advanced to the? >> point whereby you can leave it plugged in and have nice Perlo2 >> scripts to failover your application(s).  Cute. > N > All in all, most clustering software is basically a glorified version of the > old Perl scripts.a >   : 	As the OS/390 and VMS folks shudder at the thought . . .    				Rob    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:54:01 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> " Subject: Re: The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid( Message-ID: <9ht0l3$kf7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:alxQ0RAo2HBL@eisner.encompasserve.org... H > In article <ZFb07.398996$eK2.81072129@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>, "Yousuf* Khan" <ykhan@nospam.home.com.spam> writes:C > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message:8 > > news:_lb07.709$tH1.512983@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...< > >> > In which specific categories did Tru64 surpass HP-UX? > >> > >> Clustering, for one.e > >tD > > Now, there are two separate meanings for clustering. There's theE > > load-balancing type clustering, where multiple nodes run the same J > > applications and share tasks with each other simultaneously to work onJ > > bigger workloads. Then there is the failover type clustering, where it? > > simply a high-availability option. Which one is cited here?p > >l >v' > Failover clustering isn't clustering.   I You guys really need to read Greg's book (well, Rob needs to re-read it).tL Clustering means many different things to many people, and no one group owns the definition.a   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:50:39 -0500# From: "Mark E. Levy" <mark@fsi.net>w: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated/ Message-ID: <tk162i34tp2o14@corp.supernews.com>n  3 "Eric Taylor" <et@rocketship1.com> wrote in messageb) news:3B3D264E.C83BC5D6@rocketship1.com...i0 > My intent is to pursuade all vms users to moveK > to linux if at all possible. My project at JPL has just spent less than aR couple   ...,  J You want to "pursuade all vms users to move to linux." Is this just at JPL5 or in general? If it's just at JPL, have a nice life.1> If it's in general, well, then all I have to say is, get bent.  	 Mark Levy    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:45:40 GMTm& From: Eric Taylor <et@rocketship1.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated/ Message-ID: <3B40B339.6196F032@rocketship1.com>n   "Mark E. Levy" wrote:n  5 > "Eric Taylor" <et@rocketship1.com> wrote in messageh+ > news:3B3D264E.C83BC5D6@rocketship1.com...c2 > > My intent is to pursuade all vms users to moveM > > to linux if at all possible. My project at JPL has just spent less than ae > couple >d > ...i >tL > You want to "pursuade all vms users to move to linux." Is this just at JPL7 > or in general? If it's just at JPL, have a nice life.w@ > If it's in general, well, then all I have to say is, get bent. >p > Mark Levyi  : I said, "if possible". Obviously, you can't or more likely: won't. I must admit, it was difficult to leave 15 years of7 vax expertise behind. But, like the buggy whip, vms and=; eventually all proprietary systems like it, will fade away.=  4 You simply cannot afford to be stuck on one piece of8 iron anymore. VMS does that. Soon it will be zero pieces of hardware.  : Otherwise, I must commend you for a most eloquently spoken	 rebuttal.    ee   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:32:00 +0010m% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aur: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated5 Message-ID: <01K5I7SQTY0Y00293L@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>s   Eric Taylor wrote:   [snips of Eric and Mark Levy]s  ; >I said, "if possible". Obviously, you can't or more likelyn; >won't. I must admit, it was difficult to leave 15 years ofo8 >vax expertise behind. But, like the buggy whip, vms and< >eventually all proprietary systems like it, will fade away.  L And obviously we know that Micro$.... (fill in the last few letters) is the J most open OS in the world.  I just hope your prophesy comes true and this N apology for an OS (and the associated apologies for humans) will "fade away".   5 >You simply cannot afford to be stuck on one piece ofo9 >iron anymore. VMS does that. Soon it will be zero pieces2
 >of hardware.n  I Some of the competitors seem to have done quite well on their non-peecee q iron.$   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:28:51 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>d: Subject: RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D202D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----/ > From: Eric Taylor [mailto:et@rocketship1.com]l   > "Mark E. Levy" wrote:g  > > > You want to "pursuade all vms users to move to linux." Is  > this just at JPL9 > > or in general? If it's just at JPL, have a nice life. B > > If it's in general, well, then all I have to say is, get bent.  < > I said, "if possible". Obviously, you can't or more likely< > won't. I must admit, it was difficult to leave 15 years of9 > vax expertise behind. But, like the buggy whip, vms andj= > eventually all proprietary systems like it, will fade away.   6 > You simply cannot afford to be stuck on one piece of: > iron anymore. VMS does that. Soon it will be zero pieces > of hardware.  < > Otherwise, I must commend you for a most eloquently spoken > rebuttal.m  J Well, I've not seen the original message that started this, but this whole# switching to Linux thing amuses me.C  L Linux is clearly an inferior product in terms of design to VMS.  It makes noK sense to me that one would migrate to something which is "worse" (to choose I a term) than what they have now.  Oh -- I see it all the time with idiotsa3 migrating to windows... but what is your reasoning?m  K The world is, unfortunately, not as simple as "open good, proprietary bad."o  H I may come off as a bit scathing here, and I don't mean to.  Please bear with me.   My argument is this:  K There is nothing wrong with a proprietary system.  In some cases it will bexK your best choice because of technical superiority.  Face it, Linux won't do-I all that VMS will, and that which it will do, it won't do as well in manynL cases.  I think you come close to admitting this above when you put emphasisH on your phrase "where possible."  The question is, why suffer with lower) quality in the name of being more "open?"s  K There could be an "open" system constructed one day which surpasses VMS, innI which case, I'll certainly use it, but it's a "holy grail" and I've neverm seen it.  J You'd certainly be doing the world a favor if, for instance, your goal wasJ to convince all windows users to switch to Linux.  (or a nice ROM-embedded basic interpreter)  D I won't argue that vendor lock-in is bad, but I will argue with yourL conclusions based on this fact.  There are ways to avoid vendor lock-in.  OnI the other hand, if that were really your primary concern, wouldn't you beg1 better off convincing people to switch to NetBSD?   L So why Linux, out of all the other choices?(Note that app availability is anI interesting argument, but FreeBSD will run Linux apps as well these days)l Why not VMS instead?    D It's certainly not an open vs. proprietary argument.  Imagine this:   F I could write a set of bootstraps for two or three machines, and a hexF editor (to be loaded by the bootstraps) in your "portable" language ofL choice.  On the other hand, forget that, how about a hex editor in COBOL.  IJ could call it WhackOS, release it under a GNU license.  By your reasoning,4 would this be somehow intrinsically better than VMS?   Regards,   Chrisa  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developere Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");D '    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:50:48 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: to 7.3 from 6.24 Message-ID: <1010703023401.342C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Mark W. Ripley wrote:m  B > I've looked through the FAQ, but couldn't find exactly what I amB > looking for which is information on what to look out for when we7 > upgrade our AlphaServer 4100 from VMS 6.2-1H3 to 7.3.,E > I am especially looking for information on gotcha's with UCX$/TCP$ s@ > and any other advice/warnings you think would be helpful.  Of B > course we RTFM, but I really would appreciate any info on things > to be aware of.e >  > TIA -9 >  > Mark W. Ripley > Miller's Professional Imagingr  @ V7.3 is too new to make the FAQ, I think.  (The latest version I> have is dated 10-Apr-2001.)  Most customers didn't receive 7.3? until late May or June.  (I think some people still haven't got  it.)  < So the best thing is to watch the newsgroups for VMS and anyC layered products you might be using (e.g. vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.*)u  6 Or search on Google (formerly Dejanews) for VMS & 7.3.  = That said, I've installed V7.3 on two systems, a hobbyist VAX'> and a demo Alpha, with no particular problems so far, but only? light usage.  (Except my two current VMS pet peeves, the changebA in the behaviour of "A" when you do a purge/confirm, (1st changedl? in VMS V7.2) and the incremental backup now backs up everythingrF most of the time because of a change to the way directory modificationB dates are maintained.  (I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing about	 this. ;-)h  ? However, there may be issues with layered products that I don't 	 use, etc.i  > One thing I always do before and after an upgrade (and usually< any time I run AUTOGEN) is to save a text copy of the sysgen> parameters before and after the upgrade, so I can diff them if needed.    $ type sys$manager:x.com $ mcr sysgen use currenth show/all show/special exit" $ ! before the upgrade or AUTOGEN: $ @sys$manager:x/out=old.lis $ ! ! $ ! after the upgrade or AUTOGEN:a $ @sys$manager:x/out=new.lis $ diff old.lis new.lis   [little or lots of stuff....]     DIFFERENCES /IGNORE=()/MERGED=1-     $1$DKC0:[JOHN]OLD.LIS;1-     $1$DKC0:[JOHN]NEW.LIS;1a  < Sometimes the output format of SYSGEN's show command changes; across an upgrade, and everything looks different.  Usuallyf< some combination of "/ignore=(spacing,case,trailing...)" can, reduce the differences to a managable level.  : You may also notice differences in default values for some= parameters that you may want to consider changing of your oldf values were way out of whack.u  B I combine this with the "examine autogen output and MODPARAMS.DAT"$ step in the post-upgrade procedures.   -- s John Santos- Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 08:01:27 -0700>1 From: jason_odonnell@erinet.com (Jason O'Donnell)_" Subject: UPS for AlphaServer 2100A= Message-ID: <5c8ffd05.0107030701.6c61e337@posting.google.com>    Hello,  E I recently acquired an AlphaServer 2100A RM for home hobbyist use.  Im> have read the input current specifications and it looks like aF standard everyday retail UPS will do the trick.  However, it does lookE like I need a 1400 rated UPS.  Is that right or can I get away with ai  smaller one?  Money is an issue.  E Also, a rackmounted one would be better.  Can I get a rackmounted one E for about the same price as a pedestal model?  It looks like they areg a little more expensive.   JMOD  C PS:  I felt like I was kicked in the stomach when Compaq made their> Itanium announcement.s   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 10:51:36 -0700i1 From: jason_odonnell@erinet.com (Jason O'Donnell)e" Subject: UPS for AlphaServer 2100A= Message-ID: <5c8ffd05.0107030951.3e28e6c5@posting.google.com>t  F I have acquired an AlphaServer 2100A RM.  I want a UPS to protect it. F From the input current specifications, it appears I could use a normalB retail UPS.  It also seem to need a 1400 rated UPS.  Will a normal8 retail UPS work and what is the lowest UPS I should use?  D Also, what about a rackmount version?  They seem to cost quite a bit more.    JMOD   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 06:23:32 GMTr6 From: Gunther Schadow <gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org>% Subject: VAX 11/78x running anywhere?.5 Message-ID: <3B4164E3.E731649@aurora.regenstrief.org>e   Hi,   ? does anyone of you work in a place or know of a place where VAXe@ 11/78x are still in routine operation or have only recently been= retired? I'd like to hear of such, particularly if in the midoB west (PA, OH, TN, KY, IN, IL, WI, MN, MO, KN, ID, NE). I'm looking; for mostly a cabinet and infrastructure for an 11/785 as a o	 hobbyist.z   Thanks for your hints! -Gunther     -- iH Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D.                    gschadow@regenstrief.orgH Medical Information Scientist      Regenstrief Institute for Health CareH Adjunct Assistant Professor        Indiana University School of MedicineH tel:1(317)630-7960                         http://aurora.regenstrief.org   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:04:26 +0200, From: "Dave McDonald" <browser@acenet.co.za>! Subject: VAX 4000-106 qbus pinout - Message-ID: <9hrjj3$85c$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net>   = This may not be the ideal group, but there's no hardware.vax.t  K I'm looking for the pinout of the Qbus expansion connectors on the VAX 4000  105 and 106.  : Anyone able to help, or point me to a more appropriate NG?   Much appreciated  
 Dave McDonalda
 Johannesburg.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:15:48 GMTe$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> Subject: Re: vax 4000/90) Message-ID: <3B413979.614FB00A@wi.rr.com>m  M You're chasing a VAXstation 4000 model 90?  It shouldn't take you too long tol& catch it.  They can't run very fast...  
 -Scott ;^)   mark wrote:    > Hi there,e >rL > I am chasing a VAX 4000/90 with tape drive preferably, I thought that this > was a good place to ask. >eM > If you think that you can help and you are in Australia please let me know.s >e > Thanks   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:55:35 -0400. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences?e+ Message-ID: <9hpufs$ir4$1@bob.news.rcn.net>K  F I have implemented 7.3 on a couple of Alphas and one VAX.  No problemsK during the upgrade on any of them, but it is my personal opinion that going6K into production with 7.3 is not a good idea, unless there is a feature that.J you absolutely cannot live without.  There are now several patches out forK VMS 7.3; I expect more to show up, just as was the case with VMS 7.2 (hencep% VMS 7.2-1, and soon-to-be VMS 7.2-2).p  J You may want to peruse DSNLINK as well; sometimes things pop up there that$ will save you grief in the long run.   Ken Randellp  - John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> wrote in messageiA news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0107010849270.12112-100000@athena.csdco.com...p >tK > What experiences have people had with V7.3?  Is it too early to use it inoH > a mixed-architecture and wide area production cluster, or can one just > forge ahead? >n	 > Thanks.r >  > John Nebel >  >g   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 12:08:23 -0500p+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)w! Subject: RE: VMS 7.3 experiences?p3 Message-ID: <NwxVN5U+7hRH@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  W In article <C2256A7D.004AA3C1.00@jklh21.valmet.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes:n >  >  > Tom, > F > According to the cover letter for V7.3, V6.2 is _not_ supported in a > migration-modeR > (or any other mode) with V7.3.  I have been told this is at least partly because > ofF > mount hangs with volume shadowing on one of the Field Test releases. > = > Do you have any experience with this, positive or negative.r >   C 	Last week I booted an Alpha into a VAX 6.2 cluster.  Alpha runningo? 	7.2-1 with latest SYS patch (but not the very latest, the one 1< 	updated Thursday or so?).  Mounted disks not in use, copiedH 	those files, that's easy.  But I also mounted and copied all files off H 	a VAX based shadowset.  Worked like a charm.  One datapoint does not a H 	case make.  Your mileage may vary.  And the Alpha was removed from the  	cluster after this operation.   				Robu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 20:01:40 +0100m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>y! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? * Message-ID: <3B40C513.1419AEA7@virgin.net>   Kenneth Randell wrote:   >nL > You may want to peruse DSNLINK as well; sometimes things pop up there that& > will save you grief in the long run. >S  N While DSNLINK still exists. UK customers have already been given a termination8 date and I guess US customers will get one soon as well. --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:36:17 +0100i From: nic <nic@noaspm.com>! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences?m9 Message-ID: <3B40F761.2A058A11@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>n   Kenneth Randell wrote:  H > I have implemented 7.3 on a couple of Alphas and one VAX.  No problemsM > during the upgrade on any of them, but it is my personal opinion that going:M > into production with 7.3 is not a good idea, unless there is a feature thatcL > you absolutely cannot live without.  There are now several patches out forM > VMS 7.3; I expect more to show up, just as was the case with VMS 7.2 (henceo' > VMS 7.2-1, and soon-to-be VMS 7.2-2).p  K I'm always puzzed when folks say "don't go to the latest so and so version,a stick with the one before".r  O From my experiences with the fieldtest kit and also picking up information from-M the recent technical seminars, there is are very definite, mainly performance G relatied reasons you should go for 7.3. the efforts to combat NUMA have * benefitted all, event the non SMP systems.  
 Just my 0.02.s   Regards, nic) nclews at csc dot com (posting from home)    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 18:38:46 -050059 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)R! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences?y3 Message-ID: <uc8m2B+jrrgR@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  V In article <3B40F761.2A058A11@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>, nic <nic@noaspm.com> writes:  M > I'm always puzzed when folks say "don't go to the latest so and so version,i > stick with the one before".t > Q > From my experiences with the fieldtest kit and also picking up information from O > the recent technical seminars, there is are very definite, mainly performanceaI > relatied reasons you should go for 7.3. the efforts to combat NUMA have., > benefitted all, event the non SMP systems.  @ Some sites have higher priorities than performance improvements.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:54:32 +0100 ) From: nic <nic@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>c! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? 9 Message-ID: <3B40FBA8.52D977D8@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>s   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  X > In article <3B40F761.2A058A11@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>, nic <nic@noaspm.com> writes: >lO > > I'm always puzzed when folks say "don't go to the latest so and so version,  > > stick with the one before".oB > Some sites have higher priorities than performance improvements.  Y Agreed. However There is some reluctance sometime of engineering to fix faults in earlier T versions, and your only way forward is that upgrade. Ive no room to speak though, we8 support just about every version released from 4 ish up.  Q And having said that there are some largely unpatched which are extremely stable.e  Y Perhaps I'm just enthusing too much about it, but I can see a lot of activity in the NUMAyV arena, I'm not aware of any other operating systems doing any major work in this area, unless you know better?n  
 regards, nic.t   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 21:05:45 -050019 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)u! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences?n3 Message-ID: <qGcU1YP$CxIe@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  e In article <3B40FBA8.52D977D8@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>, nic <nic@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk> writes:   [ > Perhaps I'm just enthusing too much about it, but I can see a lot of activity in the NUMAoX > arena, I'm not aware of any other operating systems doing any major work in this area, > unless you know better?a  D On an intellectual basis, I think NUMA support it nice, but I am notA so enthused about it that I forget I don't have NUMA hardware :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:20:29 +0100u  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences?oH Message-ID: <OFEC82414A.8BECDC64-ON80256A7E.0043A52B@qedi.quintiles.com>  H I think of it as someone at a DECUS UK seminar proposed it some three or more years ago :: NUMA is something to be overcome.  It is not an advantage.   Steve.     Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>>rD On an intellectual basis, I think NUMA support it nice, but I am notA so enthused about it that I forget I don't have NUMA hardware :-)0 <<<5   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:21:35 -0400. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? + Message-ID: <9hsgs5$ju9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>n  L I agree that if there are performance-related reasons for upgrading, then by all means, do so,'E AFTER you have done a lot of testing to make sure things don't break.i  K Past history has shown that major VMS upgrades contain small but noticeable L 'features' that just may affect your environment.  There were a few of theseL 'small' features in the shipping VMS 7.2 release that were not in any of theK field test versions.  One of these features broke my company's software, so H it pays to do your testing before moving into production.  It was simpleJ enough to create a work-around, but all the same, it is prudent to do your	 homework.r   Ken Randellt  % nic <nic@noaspm.com> wrote in messagen3 news:3B40F761.2A058A11@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk...n >i >p > Kenneth Randell wrote: >VJ > > I have implemented 7.3 on a couple of Alphas and one VAX.  No problemsI > > during the upgrade on any of them, but it is my personal opinion thate goingiJ > > into production with 7.3 is not a good idea, unless there is a feature thatJ > > you absolutely cannot live without.  There are now several patches out foraH > > VMS 7.3; I expect more to show up, just as was the case with VMS 7.2 (hence) > > VMS 7.2-1, and soon-to-be VMS 7.2-2).r >iD > I'm always puzzed when folks say "don't go to the latest so and so version, > stick with the one before".n >dL > From my experiences with the fieldtest kit and also picking up information fromC > the recent technical seminars, there is are very definite, mainlys performancehI > relatied reasons you should go for 7.3. the efforts to combat NUMA havet, > benefitted all, event the non SMP systems. >a > Just my 0.02.o >r > Regards, nic+ > nclews at csc dot com (posting from home)a >y   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 15:33:53 +0200e* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)! Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 experiences? * Message-ID: <3b41c9c1$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  l In article <Pine.OSF.4.21.0107010849270.12112-100000@athena.csdco.com>, John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:J >What experiences have people had with V7.3?  Is it too early to use it inG >a mixed-architecture and wide area production cluster, or can one justb
 >forge ahead?c  D A big shop here in Austria is running it for more than 18months (!!); here in production use. Yup, more than one and a half year.r8 (they really really needed the performance enhancements)   Does this qualify ??   -- t< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888c< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:16:53 -0400N  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com! Subject: RE: VMS 7.3 experiences?e4 Message-ID: <C2256A7E.0053BF37.00@jklh21.valmet.com>   Rob,  3 I'm confused (not a new thing) about your response.e7 V7.2 and V6.2 always worked together.  The question was\< specifically about V7.3 and V6.2 which the Cover Letter says0 are _not_ supported together even for migration.  : My concern is that there is something in shadowing on V7.33 that is _not_ backported to V6.2 patched shadowing.1   -Norm         3 young_r@encompasserve.org on 07/02/2001 01:08:23 PM   + Please respond to young_r@encompasserve.orgi   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comf cc:e" Subject:  RE: VMS 7.3 experiences?        O In article <C2256A7D.004AA3C1.00@jklh21.valmet.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.comX writes:  >n >n > Tom, >iF > According to the cover letter for V7.3, V6.2 is _not_ supported in a > migration-modeJ > (or any other mode) with V7.3.  I have been told this is at least partly becausel > ofF > mount hangs with volume shadowing on one of the Field Test releases. >e= > Do you have any experience with this, positive or negative.t >c  G      Last week I booted an Alpha into a VAX 6.2 cluster.  Alpha running B      7.2-1 with latest SYS patch (but not the very latest, the one@      updated Thursday or so?).  Mounted disks not in use, copiedK      those files, that's easy.  But I also mounted and copied all files offIK      a VAX based shadowset.  Worked like a charm.  One datapoint does not a K      case make.  Your mileage may vary.  And the Alpha was removed from theS"      cluster after this operation.                       Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 12:43:56 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)c! Subject: RE: VMS 7.3 experiences?r3 Message-ID: <hpZve1fAut9z@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  W In article <C2256A7E.0053BF37.00@jklh21.valmet.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes:c >  >  > Rob, > 5 > I'm confused (not a new thing) about your response.p9 > V7.2 and V6.2 always worked together.  The question wasx> > specifically about V7.3 and V6.2 which the Cover Letter says2 > are _not_ supported together even for migration. > < > My concern is that there is something in shadowing on V7.35 > that is _not_ backported to V6.2 patched shadowing.t > > 	Sorry.. in my haste to get in there, I misread and replied toB 	different versions.  I was doing 7.2-1 and 6.2 and you are asking 	about 7.3.N   				Rob=   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:39:21 -04008 From: "Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com>, Subject: Re: VMS installation Probs from CD./ Message-ID: <tk11je5nma399f@news.supernews.com>e  L Buy a Toshiba/DEC CD-ROM - they aren't that expensive - we have them for $89   David Tl   -- Island Computers US Corporation  2700 Gregory Streett	 Suite 150  Savannah GA 31404a Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0096  sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com' http://www.islandco.com/legal-email.htm"  0 "Mark Vance" <mvance@iglou.com> wrote in message# news:3B3FAC11.15980782@iglou.com....I > Hi!  Im trying to install VMS from a SAF (teac)CD with a 512 byte block1I > jumper set on, adn the chain correctly terminated, and with scsi id notc% > interfereing with any other device.D >5D > I am using the VMS 7.1 binaries disk to try to install from.  If i > simply try top >e > >>> boot Dkb400: >hD > I get an exe file not found error shorty after the regular mapping' > errors and the VMS startup info line.w >  > If I do this.w >r > >>> b/r5:1 dkb400: >e= > it says it cant find [sysexe]vaxvmssys.par then goes to them >e > SYSBOOT>>  >a
 > if I say > SYSBOOT>> use ANYOLD NAME  >bE > I get an understandable error file not found.  After I've made thate8 > error I can now select the [sysexe]vaxvamssys.par file >.% > SYSBOOT>> use [sysexe]vaxvmssys.pare > SYSBOOT>> continue.o >qJ > I then get to put in the date and it configures the devices and tells me > im in Standalone backup... >r+ > $ back/image dkb400:vms071.b/save dka300:l > I > Gives me a message saying drive is offline , and goes into Mount Verifyc > forever.......+ > Anyone have any Ideas whats going on?????R > H > Could it be my cd rom?  it IS jumpered to 512 byte blocks though...... >r >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:25:08 GMTW$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phonet) Message-ID: <3B413BA8.77701463@wi.rr.com>i  C Any time you want to mix VMS and pagers, use Rampage from Ergonomic,
 Solutions.* I think their web page is www.ergosol.com.   Tell 'em I sent you.  ;^)u   -Scott Vieth :^)   Trevor Blake wrote:g   > Hi >6G > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.nE > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.r@ > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to' > assimilate the information until now. G > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what softwareb/ > and hardware people are using / is available.b >tJ > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asG > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to dot > SMS Text Messaging ? >u! > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.n >rG > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knows  > what its doing.  >h > -- > Regards,  Trevor Blake >-J > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . > @ .o >dB > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenH >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:56:22 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phoner: Message-ID: <Gnb07.711$tH1.514307@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  K Before buying ANY paging product, run a D&B check to ascertain the vendor'sr' solvency and past bankruptcy history...c   caveat investor,  
 charles matco3  1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messageo# news:3B413BA8.77701463@wi.rr.com...oE > Any time you want to mix VMS and pagers, use Rampage from Ergonomic  > Solutions., > I think their web page is www.ergosol.com. >w > Tell 'em I sent you.  ;^)t >g > -Scott Vieth :^) >o > Trevor Blake wrote:  >y > > Hi > > I > > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g. G > > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.rB > > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to) > > assimilate the information until now..I > > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what software 1 > > and hardware people are using / is available.t > >sL > > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asI > > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to doe > > SMS Text Messaging ? > >r# > > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.j > >sI > > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knows  > > what its doing.u > >N > > -- > > Regards,  Trevor Blake > >rL > > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . > > @ .. > >wD > > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenJ > >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:52:51 +0200o= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>l$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)) Message-ID: <3B4098D3.51E0C322@gtech.com>r   Tim Llewellyn wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > "T. S. Murphy" wrote:cO > > > Seriously, what high performance applications are running on VMS? For theDH > > > relatively small market which Alpha does have for high performance@ > > > computing, most of the systems are running Linux or Tru64. > > 6 > > Many. Examples: lottery systems, Oracle databases. > I > Isn't security rather than performance the reason lotteries run on VMS?g  " Reliability is the reason for VMS.  D But performance is still critical. It is common to require a lottery< system to be able to handle 500000 transactions per minute !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:40:04 +0100s. From: Roger@natron.demon.co.uk (Roger Barnett) Subject: Re: VMS on UltraSparc?e- Message-ID: <603970116wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>p  S In article: <3B39F8A8.8E71D91A@bbc.co.uk>  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> o writes:s >  > whats a HHz?     its a unit of ffrequency  m  
 Roger Barnettc   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:41:20 -0400. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com> Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Errory+ Message-ID: <9hptl6$fa8$1@bob.news.rcn.net>-  J Well, it's not a Microvax-II, but I have VMS/VAX 7.3 running on a small MVE 3100 system with 12 MB of memory.  It's not quick, but it works.  I'miH running Decnet-Plus, but have not gotten around to installing TCP/IP 5.1K yet.  That may make it somewhat more unuseable.  I did not load DecWindows, ) as it uses a simple VT-420 for a console.    Ken Randell-  = Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-0107011052060001@user-2ive66e.dialup.mindspring.com...C > In article <Pfa%6.154244$Mq.4633135@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>,: > dittman@dittman.net wrote: > D > > The VMS V7.3 SPD lists the MicroVAX II in both the supported and1 > > unsupported hardware list.  Which is correct?: > H > I think we'd heard rumors about that system going off support.  Is theJ > minimum memory listed?  I think it's more than the maximum a MicroVAX IIK > can have, using DEC-standard parts.  That would be enough to desupport, I( > think. > I > It's also possible a 3rd party came up with a way to put more memory in'I > the system, and then VMS would work.  But it probably still wouldn't bem > supported. >i > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:51:55 GMTf From: dittman@dittman.nety Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error @ Message-ID: <vM007.21554$xJ5.249088@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>  5 Wayne Johnson <wayne.johnson@metc.state.mn.us> wrote:p : For What It's Worth:  H : We are running 2 MicroVAX II's with 64 MB each.  (still running 5.5-2)  > Are you sure someone didn't upgrade the CPUs in those systems? -- e Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.netr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:08:45 GMTt2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error"@ Message-ID: <xW807.26121$xJ5.391818@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:7 > Wayne Johnson <wayne.johnson@metc.state.mn.us> wrote:i > : For What It's Worth:  J > : We are running 2 MicroVAX II's with 64 MB each.  (still running 5.5-2)  @ > Are you sure someone didn't upgrade the CPUs in those systems?  L They pretty much had to have.  I'm not even sure a MicroVAX III will support@ 64MB of RAM.  I was thinking it could only handle 48MB (16 * 3).   			Zane0   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 02:44:48 GMTu From: dittman@dittman.netc Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error7@ Message-ID: <Aka07.26730$Qx2.416181@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>  1 Zane H. Healy <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:  : dittman@dittman.net wrote:8 :> Wayne Johnson <wayne.johnson@metc.state.mn.us> wrote: :> : For What It's Worth:   K :> : We are running 2 MicroVAX II's with 64 MB each.  (still running 5.5-2)o  A :> Are you sure someone didn't upgrade the CPUs in those systems?t  N : They pretty much had to have.  I'm not even sure a MicroVAX III will supportB : 64MB of RAM.  I was thinking it could only handle 48MB (16 * 3).  = I know a MicroVAX 3900 (KA655) can handle 64MB.  I'm not suree about the earlier models.e -- c Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 04:01:30 GMTt2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error @ Message-ID: <usb07.28465$Qx2.436695@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:P > : They pretty much had to have.  I'm not even sure a MicroVAX III will supportD > : 64MB of RAM.  I was thinking it could only handle 48MB (16 * 3).  ? > I know a MicroVAX 3900 (KA655) can handle 64MB.  I'm not surep > about the earlier models.n  I The MicroVAX III is the KA650, and the MS650 is available in 8Mb and 16MbbH sizes.  IIRC, you can have 3 RAM boards, which results in 48MB.  This ofH course brings up two questions, one am I remembering correctly about theF three boards, and two was there a 3rd party option that allowed larger boards?   K Unfortuantly my MicroVAX III, along with it's hardware manual is buried in  N the back of a Storage Unit at the moment (and I do mean buried in the back).     			Zaner   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 19:36:24 +01004% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>uE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.) * Message-ID: <3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net>   Dave Weatherall wrote:  H > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toH > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.B > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theG > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveatsm > and contingiencies?n >a  O Given that the possibility of a port to IA64 has existed for some time it wouldeI not be surprising if some investigation of such a port hasn't taken placep previously.    >l > -- >d. > Cheers - Dave. (tapping on AMD running OS/2) >e. > Ok that was negative but it is On-Topic. :-)   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:51:07 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)i' Message-ID: <3B40D0AB.D6682EF5@fsi.net>    Alan Greig wrote:f >  > Dave Weatherall wrote: > J > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toJ > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.D > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theI > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveatsa > > and contingiencies?o > >o > Q > Given that the possibility of a port to IA64 has existed for some time it would K > not be surprising if some investigation of such a port hasn't taken placee
 > previously.    See:  ' http://www.djesys.com/vms/vmspolls.htmlw/ http://www.djesys.com/vms/vmspolls.html#emerald    --   David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/"  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:07:28 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)y: Message-ID: <ko507.395$tH1.206253@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message$ news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net... >s >- > Dave Weatherall wrote: >oJ > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toJ > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.D > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theI > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveatsh > > and contingiencies?   @ Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it!  I Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing aeC Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:21:13 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>lE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.) ( Message-ID: <9hqodf$h6m$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message04 news:ko507.395$tH1.206253@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >74 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message& > news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net... > >  > >  > > Dave Weatherall wrote: > >2L > > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toL > > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.F > > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theK > > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveats_ > > > and contingiencies?2 >0B > Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it! > K > Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing aaE > Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!.  J So you believe it's the customers' responsibility to do their best to keepC their vendor's screw-ups tightly under wraps, so that potential new H customers and other existing customers won't know about them and perhaps# adjust their decisions accordingly?e  I That's not my impression of what this newsgroup was supposed to be about.iI Actually, that's not what I thought SKC was supposed to be about, either.l   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:04:22 +1000- From: "Paul Nankervis" <paulnank@au1.ibm.com> E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)u/ Message-ID: <9hqum6$6lns$1@poknews.pok.ibm.com>s  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hqodf$h6m$1@pyrite.mv.net... > D > > Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it! > >oK > > Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doingu a0G > > Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!: >:L > So you believe it's the customers' responsibility to do their best to keepE > their vendor's screw-ups tightly under wraps, so that potential neweJ > customers and other existing customers won't know about them and perhaps% > adjust their decisions accordingly?a >wK > That's not my impression of what this newsgroup was supposed to be about.tK > Actually, that's not what I thought SKC was supposed to be about, either.   E It is the vendors job to make money. Usually that is done by offeringnC customers a choice of goods or services for sale. The customer thentJ decides for themselves what the relative merits of the potential solutionsC are (price, performance, comments from other customers (look in the- newsgroups!), etc...)   ? I thought that comp.os.vms would have been a pro-VMS newsgroup.CC However my current impression is that after one look in here no-onemC will ever buy VMS again - despite it being an excellent product! Inb@ fact if Compaq management ever got to reading material from hereH (unlikely) then they would have to conclude that it is not worth selling in such a difficult market.a  ( Who needs enemies when you have friends!   Paul Nankervis   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:40:06 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>sE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)a( Message-ID: <9hr0hv$qii$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Paul Nankervis" <paulnank@au1.ibm.com> wrote in message) news:9hqum6$6lns$1@poknews.pok.ibm.com...e   ...   A > I thought that comp.os.vms would have been a pro-VMS newsgroup.f  K It is.  Unfortunately, because of Compaq's handling of VMS and the hardware A it runs on, there's a major distinction between being pro-VMS andp pro-Compaq.   E > However my current impression is that after one look in here no-onedB > will ever buy VMS again - despite it being an excellent product!  K Whether that would be a good or a bad thing (and for which customers, sincenH their desires and needs vary) depends a lot on whether Compaq chooses toK support VMS in any reasonable manner.  That's a large part of the sentimentt" underlying the current discussion.    In B > fact if Compaq management ever got to reading material from hereJ > (unlikely) then they would have to conclude that it is not worth selling > in such a difficult market.a  J They clearly concluded that years ago.  The question is whether *anything*G that happens here can help change that.  Hint:  turning the other cheekoG hasn't, and we've about run out of cheeks to turn anyway (well, come to0 think of it...).   >W* > Who needs enemies when you have friends!  J That's about the way a lot of us here feel about Compaq.  Ignoring any who may have left already.   - bill   >x > Paul Nankervis   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 19:36:26 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>hE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)o' Message-ID: <3B41138A.A0AEF81C@fsi.net>n   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:g > 4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message& > news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net... > >e > >  > > Dave Weatherall wrote: > >lL > > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toL > > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.F > > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theK > > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveatsg > > > and contingiencies?t > B > Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it! > K > Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing a E > Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!y   Having a rough day, are you?  D Me, too. Still no new job postings of interest. Better call my local: disposal company to see if they still have any openings...   -- - David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 07:41:49 -0500w1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>iE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)e' Message-ID: <3B41BD8D.20A05680@fsi.net>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > g > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-11PDYk77IZzV@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:e3 > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:28, "Terry C. Shannon"n& > > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > >e > >>7 > >> "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messagei) > >> news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net...d > >> > > >> > > >> > Dave Weatherall wrote:  > >> >O > >> > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS todO > >> > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years. I > >> > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing the N > >> > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveats > >> > > and contingiencies? > >>E > >> Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it!  > >>N > >> Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing aH > >> Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!! > > I > > Terry I take your point. If this doesn't work then yes I, and many of G > > the others around here,  _will_ be the losers. The degree may vary.o >  > Not the losers, the cause !j  H Please elucidate: what can we grunts do to stop our corporate higher-upsF from making the final, if bone-headed, choice to take this most recent) excuse to dump VMS in favor of BillyWare?    -- l David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/,  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:54:08 GMT04 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)@: Message-ID: <Alb07.708$tH1.512670@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B41138A.A0AEF81C@fsi.net...k > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:y > >.6 > > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message( > > news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net... > > >- > > >- > > > Dave Weatherall wrote: > > >9K > > > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMSS toG > > > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3n years.H > > > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theE > > > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are theu caveatsv > > > > and contingiencies?l > >CD > > Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it! > >eK > > Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doinge aDG > > Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!1 >1 > Having a rough day, are you?  I Not as rough as Compaq. T'is a bright, bright, Wonderful Day for Sun, HP,e
 and IBM!!!   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 00:11:59 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>eE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)b( Message-ID: <9hrgfl$f61$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagec4 news:Alb07.708$tH1.512670@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >l> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3B41138A.A0AEF81C@fsi.net...t   ...e    > > Having a rough day, are you? >uK > Not as rough as Compaq. T'is a bright, bright, Wonderful Day for Sun, HP,t > and IBM!!!  H But not, I suspect, quite as bright a day as *last* Monday was for them, which of course is the point.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 06:04:53 GMT5- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)aE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)o5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-11PDYk77IZzV@localhost>h  0 On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:28, "Terry C. Shannon" " <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   > 4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message& > news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net... > >0 > >4 > > Dave Weatherall wrote: > >aL > > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS toL > > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.F > > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theK > > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveatsn > > > and contingiencies?e > B > Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it! > K > Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing ahE > Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!!-  F Terry I take your point. If this doesn't work then yes I, and many of C the others around here,  _will_ be the losers. The degree may vary.0   -- 6 Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 07:20:33 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)nE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.) 3 Message-ID: <QbApVvRpJVhc@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-11PDYk77IZzV@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:d2 > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:28, "Terry C. Shannon" $ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >  >> n5 >> "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message5' >> news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net...  >> > >> > >> > Dave Weatherall wrote:  >> >M >> > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months for iVMS to1M >> > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.VG >> > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing theeL >> > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveats >> > > and contingiencies? >> sC >> Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it!6 >> .L >> Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing aF >> Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!! > H > Terry I take your point. If this doesn't work then yes I, and many of E > the others around here,  _will_ be the losers. The degree may vary.e   Not the losers, the cause !    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:59:44 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)n: Message-ID: <4lj07.957$tH1.759521@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B41BD8D.20A05680@fsi.net...t > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >a9 > > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-11PDYk77IZzV@localhost>,4/ djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:t5 > > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:28, "Terry C. Shannon"e( > > > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > > >h > > >>9 > > >> "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messaget+ > > >> news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net...e > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Dave Weatherall wrote:w > > >> >I > > >> > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months foro iVMS to4J > > >> > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 years.K > > >> > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing the(H > > >> > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the caveats  > > >> > > and contingiencies? > > >>G > > >> Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it!e > > >>H > > >> Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is doing a J > > >> Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!! > > >eK > > > Terry I take your point. If this doesn't work then yes I, and many of1I > > > the others around here,  _will_ be the losers. The degree may vary.r > >i > > Not the losers, the cause !t >tJ > Please elucidate: what can we grunts do to stop our corporate higher-upsH > from making the final, if bone-headed, choice to take this most recent+ > excuse to dump VMS in favor of BillyWare?o  G Providing ammunition to the opposing forces will only help convince the H higher-ups to make the Terrible Decision which you referenced above. ;-}   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:57:52 +0100l0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)o* Message-ID: <3B41EB80.79B06959@uk.sun.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ^ > In article <3B3A135B.89FFF08B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > >> As I read the schedule, Compaq _will_ be continuing to develop Alpha F > >> until IA64 is ready, just not beyond that (i.e., not to EV8 which, > >> would have been delivered beyond that). > >rQ > > No, Compaq is completing development of Alpha, irrespective of when IA64 willgP > > be ready. So if IA64 is delayed by a few years, Compaq won't be adding a new  > > version of alpha to keep up. > K > If adequate performing version of IA64 is not available yet, what does it-( > matter that people are stuck on EV78 ?  0 It depends on how long they have to wait before:  * 1.	Compaq ports Tru64 and OpenVMS to IA-644 2.	Compaq tests the above and customers add 9 months5 3.	Compaq provides enterprise class HW based on IA-64t7 	to support the new OS's (Proliants don't fit the bill)w6 4.	All the ISV's that supply all the SW that currently- 	runs on Tru64/OpenVMS/Alpha, port it to the M0 	new platform or qualify it if the new platform ( 	includes some sort of emulation of the  	old platform.  7 I would guess that you are going to have to survive on -4 process tweeks for some considerable period of time.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:32:45 -0500g1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>nE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)2' Message-ID: <3B41F3AD.CEC16859@fsi.net>A   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3B41BD8D.20A05680@fsi.net...  > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > >t; > > > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-11PDYk77IZzV@localhost>,n1 > djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:e7 > > > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:07:28, "Terry C. Shannon"e* > > > > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > >t > > > >>; > > > >> "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message - > > > >> news:3B40BF27.EEA2F08A@virgin.net...!
 > > > >> >
 > > > >> >! > > > >> > Dave Weatherall wrote:o
 > > > >> >K > > > >> > > However , there is a statement that it will take 18 months fort	 > iVMS to L > > > >> > > be up-and-running and the whole thing ready for production in 3 > years.M > > > >> > > Who assessed the timescale, on what is it based? Who's doing thetJ > > > >> > > planning? What were the criteria and, crucially, what are the	 > caveatss  > > > >> > > and contingiencies? > > > >>I > > > >> Verily, Sun loves it! Verily, HP loves it! Verily, IBM loves it!w > > > >>J > > > >> Yes, keep on keeping on for Compaq's competitors!  Comp.os.vms is	 > doing a L > > > >> Great Job in this regard. Keep up the fantastic work, you losers!!! > > > > M > > > > Terry I take your point. If this doesn't work then yes I, and many of-K > > > > the others around here,  _will_ be the losers. The degree may vary.  > > >n! > > > Not the losers, the cause !m > >.L > > Please elucidate: what can we grunts do to stop our corporate higher-upsJ > > from making the final, if bone-headed, choice to take this most recent- > > excuse to dump VMS in favor of BillyWare?u > I > Providing ammunition to the opposing forces will only help convince therJ > higher-ups to make the Terrible Decision which you referenced above. ;-}  E They need no help from us. The Redmond juggernaut has done its worst.e   -- t David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 09:17:20 -0700m( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris), Subject: Re: What about performance issues??= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0107030817.7abe3d38@posting.google.com>o  d bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<9ha6c2$qeo$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>...A > It has been said here that VMS performance, particularly I/O is B > considerably slower than under other OSes.  Is this true, or wasD > it just the unjustified rantings of people not in a place to know?  C Most of these posts seem to involve C programs and comparisons withaE Unix systems.  I believe they are honest, sincere, and not ranting orc3 ignorant.  They simply reported what they observed.i  & My experience has been very different.  C I've seen that with VMS you can set up an 18-node cluster of GS-140 D class systems, and set up a RAID 0+1 array with 56 solid-state disksD spread across dozens of disk controllers, and get I/O performance soA good that I had to patch MONITOR CLUSTER so that it could displaywE 5-digit values of I/Os per second so I could observe the actual peaksp
 in I/O rates.   D And this level of I/O performance was being achieved with the older,B slower HSJ50 and CI hardware, not the hot new Fibre Channel stuff;D with no XFC; with plain old RMS indexed files, without using the newA Fast_IO interface that is significantly streamlined compared withC $QIO.h   Keith    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:44:26 +0200t, From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?) Message-ID: <3B4193FA.5040702@iaf.fhg.de>d   B.Eckstein wrote:t  @ > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family6 > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > ; > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmln > ; > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?t >   I In "Handelsblatt" (top business newspaper) from July 3rd there is a full h9 page advertisement which states: "...By 2004, all Compaq aG high-performance servers will be standardized around the Itanium-based  F platform. You'll be able to add an Itanium-based server to your Alpha D cluster as if it was another AlphaServer." The ad is in english, so / there is no inexactness given by translation ;)i  < I'll keep this page on a safe place and over the next years   % I'll look at it in case of doubt. :))a       Regards, -- g  ; ***********************************************************.; *                                                         * ; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *o; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *c; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *s; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       *t; *  Germany                                                *i; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           *r; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           *s; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       *e; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  *r; *                                                         *n; ***********************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 07:15:25 -0500t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>M2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?' Message-ID: <3B41B75D.8B548F96@fsi.net>t   Theo Jakobus wrote:t >  > B.Eckstein wrote:t > B > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >r= > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html- > >-= > > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?d > >a > J > In "Handelsblatt" (top business newspaper) from July 3rd there is a full: > page advertisement which states: "...By 2004, all CompaqH > high-performance servers will be standardized around the Itanium-basedG > platform. You'll be able to add an Itanium-based server to your Alpha E > cluster as if it was another AlphaServer." The ad is in english, soi1 > there is no inexactness given by translation ;)g > = > I'll keep this page on a safe place and over the next yearsg > ' > I'll look at it in case of doubt. :))e  , Have it framed. It may be useful later on...   -- t David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:44:42 +0100b) From: nic <nic@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>, Subject: Re: What is lockstep ? 9 Message-ID: <3B40F959.58241B97@noaspm.python.demon.co.uk>o   mulp wrote:e  > > "Chris Townley" <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message= > news:993948882.11027.0.nnrp-12.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk... F > > Loads of posts talk about Tandem using lockstep - but what is it ? > >aD > > Sorry if I am being a bit naive, but never come across Tandem... >yL > Lockstep refers to running two or more circuits together with some sort ofK > check circuit verifying that they are producting the same results.  FaultyI > tolerant systems, such as Tandem's generally combine two CPUs which areiN > tightly coupled running in lock step.  Hence the name Tandem.  If the resultL > the two differ, the pair is shutdown.  Using various other techniques, the > pair is bypassed or replaced.o >g  E Just to add to the 'Himalaya' architecture, there are another pair of F lockstepped CPU's also doing the same thing with process mirroring andP checkpointing. Therefore this other lockstepped pair of CPU's take over from the 'failed' pair.  N I had a recent quote from one of our guys in CSC who works with these systems,O and they had over 1000 days of uptime despite hardware and power failures and aAL couple of upgrades! I think the systems are capable of cloning to 'new good'( systems, maybe someone wants to confirm?  P Anyway it's interesting technology, quite different to VMS, but my understandingL was that one of it's newer technologies, servernet, was being ported to VMS.   regards, nic! nclews at csc dot com (from home)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:56:32 +0200r$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> Subject: What is lockstep ? + Message-ID: <009FE750.6DF8A422.13@decus.de>   . > From: mulp <michaelpettengill@EARTHLINK.NET>! > Subject: Re: What is lockstep ?  >   > > "Chris Townley" <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message= > news:993948882.11027.0.nnrp-12.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk...iF > > Loads of posts talk about Tandem using lockstep - but what is it ? > > D > > Sorry if I am being a bit naive, but never come across Tandem... >   M > Tandem is another company swallowed by Compaq, one that has survived so faruI > with its name intact and even most of its products.  (A number of othergN > companies have been effectively flushed in name and product and technology.) >   L > Lockstep refers to running two or more circuits together with some sort ofK > check circuit verifying that they are producting the same results.  Fault.I > tolerant systems, such as Tandem's generally combine two CPUs which are N > tightly coupled running in lock step.  Hence the name Tandem.  If the resultL > the two differ, the pair is shutdown.  Using various other techniques, the > pair is bypassed or replaced.  >   M > The circuits have to be very deterministic, or at least appear that way, to  > operate in lockstep.  M Just a few days before I found an interesting article ("application note") onaM IBM's web site describing just this; it is of course the subject with respect C to the PowerPC series of processors but may be of general interest.:   link:  	a9 	http://www.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/ -B8 	DB5C38DF1A081A1D87256A3900588A38/$file/740Lkstep_an.pdf   (sorry for wrapping around ;-)   Michaela   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 13:37:12 -0700n* From: ericheadley@yahoo.com (Eric Headley)4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either< Message-ID: <54ac6f2c.0107021237.47dcd9f@posting.google.com>   rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote in message news:<rdeininger-0107011039060001@user-2ive66e.dialup.mindspring.com>...7 > In article <3B3CCDA3.19299E9D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeii' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:o > G > > Look at how hard Marcello must have fought to get a trivially smally! > > advertising budget last year.n > I > Yes, and look how much profit he brought to the bottom line.  It's damn K > clear that, in a period where Compaq was doing poorly overall, the profit J > from VMS-related (and Tru64-related) business was noticed by the CEO andE > BOD.  Wiser folks would have noticed sooner, and would have noticedi8 > alpha's contribution as well.  Better late than never.  B I am an Alpha user ( Tru64 not VMS ) and I was unprepared for thisE announcement.  I took a look at the Compaq site and the Intel site to2F see the respective importance of these announcements.  I can't find itD on the Intel site ( I didn't look very hard, but I shouldn't have toB ).  From where I stand Intel has bought Alpha to kill it.  I guess it's time to give IBM a call.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 18:09:52 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 eitherL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011809520001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <54ac6f2c.0107021237.47dcd9f@posting.google.com>,+ ericheadley@yahoo.com (Eric Headley) wrote:e     D > I am an Alpha user ( Tru64 not VMS ) and I was unprepared for thisG > announcement.  I took a look at the Compaq site and the Intel site tonH > see the respective importance of these announcements.  I can't find itF > on the Intel site ( I didn't look very hard, but I shouldn't have toD > ).  From where I stand Intel has bought Alpha to kill it.  I guess > it's time to give IBM a call.e  J Why call IBM?  Are you expecting Tru64 support (on any platform) from IBM?  G Life might have been smoother if Compaq had continued alpha developmentcD indefinitely.  But road maps are not commitments; even companies areJ allowed to change their minds.  You still have the whole EV7 generation toJ look forward to before there's a need to migrate anywhere.  Did you reallyE have your EV8 system picked out, with a spot prepared in the computeraI room?  If so, I can understand being angry.  If not, what's your hurry to 1 call IBM?  Why not see how things look in a year?    -- " Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:10:55 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either( Message-ID: <9hqur4$pdm$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageeF news:rdeininger-0207011809520001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com...> > In article <54ac6f2c.0107021237.47dcd9f@posting.google.com>,- > ericheadley@yahoo.com (Eric Headley) wrote:c >i >eF > > I am an Alpha user ( Tru64 not VMS ) and I was unprepared for thisI > > announcement.  I took a look at the Compaq site and the Intel site totJ > > see the respective importance of these announcements.  I can't find itH > > on the Intel site ( I didn't look very hard, but I shouldn't have toF > > ).  From where I stand Intel has bought Alpha to kill it.  I guess! > > it's time to give IBM a call.e >aL > Why call IBM?  Are you expecting Tru64 support (on any platform) from IBM? >nI > Life might have been smoother if Compaq had continued alpha development 2 > indefinitely.  But road maps are not commitments  K And road maps were far from the only indications of long-term Alpha supportfJ that Compaq gave - right up until last Monday.  Including stated long-termG 'commitments', time and time again, that were at least as strong as anyeD 'commitment' it has made to continued Tru64 development and support.  1 Perhaps that's why he's looking at other vendors.w   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:45:29 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>.* Subject: Re: Why VMS on IA64 will succeed?) Message-ID: <3B41BE68.8F6F15A9@gtech.com>A   David Mathog wrote:CJ > The crew running Compaq these days couldn't turn a gold brick into cash.L > They'd head off to the bank with it and come home with 5 magic beans and aL > stack of pets.com stock.  Anyone want to lay bets on the ROI, 2 years downB > the road, of the hundreds of millions they're about to invest in
 > "services"?n   I am afraid you are rigth.  ; To succeed in a market you either have to be good or cheap.   > What can Compaq offer in the service market that a dozen other> companies can not ? Is Compaq a mean slim trimmed organization that can compete on price ?    Nope.M  < They will spend that half a billion dollars buying companies* and the customers will start running away.  @ It is the ALLIN1->Exchange story all over again. Digital thougth? it was smart to convince customers to drop their trusted ALLIN1 A and switch to Exchange. It looked good on paper: consulting hoursi9 to plan and implement switch, sale of new Proliant boxes, @ service contracts on hardware and software etc.. But my guess is= that today Dell are delivering much og the hardware and othert= companies has taken over much of the service as well. Digital < gave up something of long-term value for a short term profit+ and the long term profits just vapourized !.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:12:21 +0200c& From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si>. Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS( Message-ID: <3B416245.C8FED7BE@aster.si>   VMware for VMS?e         Hoff Hoffman wrote:. > a > In article <tjp80rpcq6bnd5@news.supernews.com>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes: L > :The point here is that Win32 has already been ported to OpenVMS.  Is thisN > :enough or are there other (besides MFC) system interfaces required to run a > :Windows executable? > . >   The API is enough for porting source code. > I >   To execute a non-native image, a compatible run-time environment (the>I >   system entry points, the memory management model, etc), a translationtJ >   of the image, or an emulation of the environment, or an interpretation >   of the code, is needed.r > I >   Translations, emulations, and interpreters (and combinations of same) F >   are the typical choices when the instruction set differs.  With anI >   instruction set that is shared, a compatible run-time environment maygL >   (conceivably) be feasible/possible, depending on the relative similarity) >   of the system execution environments.e > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   -- o@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329 ?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201e@  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 07:43:47 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS' Message-ID: <3B41BE03.41DAC128@fsi.net>.   Bob Marcan wrote:y >  > VMware for VMS?y  D Interesting thought - will OVMS Engr. work with the VMware people to& make a new reality for Galaxy on IA64?   -- O David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.8   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:06:35 -0400 + From: Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu>c- Subject: Re: Write record to accounting file?d' Message-ID: <3B407FEB.937C4330@uml.edu>I   Hal Kuff wrote:b > M > I'm looking for some sample code (VMS-BASIC) would be nice to send a recordaJ > to the accounting file... looks like $SNDJBC, but don't seem to see what! > item list needs to be built....a  D I may be accused of being the master of missing the point, but if itA helps any, here is a line which I inserted in a command file (note2 BASIC) to put a message in a different log file.  ) $ request/to=security "your message here"-  F I do not have a VAX anymore to test if you can perchance say something like= request/to=accounting.  If that works, you could then use theoD procedure (not shown here) which allows you to execute a DCL command within a BASIC program.r     --E Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell, W1LPGo   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jul 2001 15:00:31 +0200d* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)- Subject: Re: Write record to accounting file? * Message-ID: <3b41c1ef$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  U In article <3B407FEB.937C4330@uml.edu>, Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes:-L >I do not have a VAX anymore to test if you can perchance say something like >request/to=accounting.  u  E It doesn't exist on Alpha _and_ VAX - at least up to OpenVMS V7.2-1 -0% (ACCOUNTING is not an operator class)t> though I admit it would make sense to have such an opportunity* (instead of having to program this myself)   -- b< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-8882< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:02:19 -0400d2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011202190001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com>  @ In article <3B3F5B7E.266EBF65@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote:   > Robert Deininger wrote:l > > H > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEFJCOAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden > > <tom@kednos.com> wrote:* > > P > > > The past is often prologue.  There was a version of the 21064 (A, I think)P > > > that was fused in such a way that it could only run the ARC console, hence	 > > > NT.p > > 5 > > There was a 21064PC, which was probably NT-only.   > 0 > I remember a 21*1*64PC and it was not NT only.  I The "Digital Semiconductor Alpha 21064 and Alpha 21064A Microprocessors - I Harwdware Reference Manual" (order number EC-Q9ZUC-TE, June 1996) says in: part:-  F Abstract: This document contains information about the following AlphaI microprocessors: 21064-150, 21064-166, 21064-200, 21064A-200, 21064A-233, * 21064A-275, 21064A-275-PC, and 21064A-300.  ' Section 1.5: 21064A-275-PC Differences:*@ Except for its memory-management functions, the 21064A-275-PC isE functionally identical to the other four 21064A microporcessors.  The H 21064A-275-PC will only support the memory-management functions necesaryH for the Windows NT operating system and other operating systems that use' the Windows NT memory-management model.   F My memory was wrong.  This -PC variant was the 21064A variety, not the plain 21064.  F I don't have any "modern" 21164 documentation handy.  There might well& have been a -PC variant there as well.  0 > There was a fuse that could have been blown to1 > only allow NT-style memory management (at leastb* > that's my recollection of what it did).   I Ugh!  The worst of the bad old days.  "Let's make a crippled chip withouto$ saving a penny on production costs."   > I 2 > don't believe any systems ever shipped with that > fuse blown.   ; That's a bright spot in an otherwise dim and dreary scheme.r   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 18:48:03 +0100v+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>c8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3B40B3D3.94092062@iee.org>    Robert Deininger wrote:eK > The "Digital Semiconductor Alpha 21064 and Alpha 21064A Microprocessors -/K > Harwdware Reference Manual" (order number EC-Q9ZUC-TE, June 1996) says ine > part:s > H > Abstract: This document contains information about the following AlphaK > microprocessors: 21064-150, 21064-166, 21064-200, 21064A-200, 21064A-233,u, > 21064A-275, 21064A-275-PC, and 21064A-300. > ) > Section 1.5: 21064A-275-PC Differences: B > Except for its memory-management functions, the 21064A-275-PC isG > functionally identical to the other four 21064A microporcessors.  The.J > 21064A-275-PC will only support the memory-management functions necesaryJ > for the Windows NT operating system and other operating systems that use) > the Windows NT memory-management model.u >   . This is correct - but I'm (almost) willing to / bet that it never shipped (that's my excuse forc2 not remembering this misbegotten pile of ... :-)).3 If someone actually has one, I'd be very interested / to hear about it. The chips are the same as them, real chips but with a fuse blown that allows( only the NT superpage mode to operate. I* am 99.9% sure that this was never done for6 any shipping chips, just in some labs to make sure the fuse did its (appalling) job.i  H > I don't have any "modern" 21164 documentation handy.  There might well( > have been a -PC variant there as well.  G There was and it was a real chip. See EC-R2W0A-TE Digital Semiconductorh Alpha 21164PC * Microprocessor  Hardware Reference Manual.  ' There's even a reference at the Q site:e=    http://www.compaq.com/inform/issues/winter20/20pcwi01.htmln  K > Ugh!  The worst of the bad old days.  "Let's make a crippled chip withoutt& > saving a penny on production costs."  - Strangely enough that view coincided with the + view of every engineer I ever heard expresso an opinion on it.?   > > Iy4 > > don't believe any systems ever shipped with that > > fuse blown.i > = > That's a bright spot in an otherwise dim and dreary scheme.o  2 Yes. Pity someone had to waste time building it in and testing it!-   Antonio-   -- -   ---------------,- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orge   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:25:14 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS( Message-ID: <9hql4f$eh7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message2F news:rdeininger-0207011202190001@user-2iveajn.dialup.mindspring.com...B > In article <3B3F5B7E.266EBF65@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote:   ...b  2 > > There was a fuse that could have been blown to3 > > only allow NT-style memory management (at leastd+ > > that's my recollection of what it did).t > K > Ugh!  The worst of the bad old days.  "Let's make a crippled chip without & > saving a penny on production costs."  J Actually, ISTR that one of the early VAXen (730?) was a similarly-crippledL version of a faster machine.  Didn't leave any better a taste in one's mouth
 back then.   - bill   >h > > Id4 > > don't believe any systems ever shipped with that > > fuse blown.n >c= > That's a bright spot in an otherwise dim and dreary scheme.r >h > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:56:01 +0100t+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> 8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3B40DFE0.C183EC48@iee.org>)   Bill Todd wrote:L > Actually, ISTR that one of the early VAXen (730?) was a similarly-crippledN > version of a faster machine.  Didn't leave any better a taste in one's mouth > back then.  ; The VAX-11/750 at people who could not afford a VAX-11/780.0- Cut down design - hence cut-down performance.a  ? I guess the VAX-11/730 was aimed at people who could not afforda7 a VAx-11/750. Even less performance. The VAX-11/725 waso7 a VAX-11/730 for people who could not afford a computern room :-)  1 None of those were (AFAIK) deliberately crippled,g just designed to a price.n  - Now the VAX 8500 *was* deliberately crippled.e0 The original microcode had NOPs to slow it down.0 Very shortly afterwards came the VAX 8530 - same2 machine, but without the NOPs. (Not to be confused, with the VAX 8350!). It was common knowledge/ outside of DEC exactly what had happened (I wasy* a customer in a little backwater ... if we knew, everyone knew!).  ) The only other case I can think of is them( VAX 4000-400 (I think) that deliberately& turned off one of the caches to knock ! performance down slightly. (Maybee$ the MicroVAX 3100-85 does the same -' it's been a while since I last looked).s  , There was little (if any) hoo-hah over these) since they were cheaper than their faster  siblings so you had a choice.V   Antoniow   -- e   ---------------o- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:32:53 -0400I2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011732540001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com>  @ In article <3B40B3D3.94092062@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote:     J > > I don't have any "modern" 21164 documentation handy.  There might well* > > have been a -PC variant there as well. > I > There was and it was a real chip. See EC-R2W0A-TE Digital Semiconductor4 > Alpha 21164PC , > Microprocessor  Hardware Reference Manual. > ) > There's even a reference at the Q site:l? >    http://www.compaq.com/inform/issues/winter20/20pcwi01.htmln  > That web page makes my teeth itch.  I better not even start...  C "This is evidence of the growing market opportunity for Alpha amongtD consumers who want top visual computing performance at an affordableD price. The processor runs at speeds of 400MHz, 466MHz and 533MHz. ItD delivers estimated performance ranging up to 12.4 SPECint95 and 16.1J SPECfp95, to power the lowest priced, highest performance Windows NT based systems available today."l  ! Ok, it looks like it's from 1997.r   M > > Ugh!  The worst of the bad old days.  "Let's make a crippled chip withouto( > > saving a penny on production costs." > / > Strangely enough that view coincided with theh- > view of every engineer I ever heard expresse > an opinion on it.e  B Well, there's a reason so few engineers are seen with pointy hair.   -- w Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:34:39 -0400.2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011734390001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <9hql4f$eh7$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:    M > > Ugh!  The worst of the bad old days.  "Let's make a crippled chip without ( > > saving a penny on production costs." > L > Actually, ISTR that one of the early VAXen (730?) was a similarly-crippledN > version of a faster machine.  Didn't leave any better a taste in one's mouth > back then.  9 The Bad Old Days have lasted quite a while, on and off...   F You'd think any company that kept up with these tricks would be out of business by now.   Oh.o   -- h Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 17:44:55 -0400v2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0207011744550001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com>  @ In article <3B40DFE0.C183EC48@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote:   > / > Now the VAX 8500 *was* deliberately crippled.h2 > The original microcode had NOPs to slow it down.2 > Very shortly afterwards came the VAX 8530 - same4 > machine, but without the NOPs. (Not to be confused. > with the VAX 8350!). It was common knowledge1 > outside of DEC exactly what had happened (I wash, > a customer in a little backwater ... if we > knew, everyone knew!).  M Let me guess.  DEC would gladly sell you an upgrade from 8500 to 8530, right?e  > It's still happening.  Certain Tektronix (Xerox) printers comeI duplex-ready, but the firmware won't activate the duplexer unless you payCG the $$$.  The "consumable" maintenace tray in these printers comes in a B standard version and a more expensive high-capacity version.  It'sD basically a sponge on a roller to soak up the extra juice.  The onlyI difference (other than price) between the two versions is the little chipiH that remembers how many pages are left before expiration.  The expensiveE version comes with a chip initialized with a higher number.  When thee/ count gets to zero, the printer goes on strike.a  H I've often wondered if the firmware in printers deliberately wastes lotsF of expensive ink/toner/wax on "cleaning", so we'll have to buy more asE soon as possible.  Ever notice the huge hunk of absorbent felt in theaJ bottom of many ink-jet printers?  Starts out a pristine white, and quicklyH turns black.  Wonderful profit item, and not much chance of them getting caught.  Modern-day NOPs.    -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comc   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:07:05 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS( Message-ID: <9hquk0$p3a$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagepF news:rdeininger-0207011744550001@user-2ive742.dialup.mindspring.com...B > In article <3B40DFE0.C183EC48@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote: >: > >W1 > > Now the VAX 8500 *was* deliberately crippled.64 > > The original microcode had NOPs to slow it down.4 > > Very shortly afterwards came the VAX 8530 - same6 > > machine, but without the NOPs. (Not to be confused0 > > with the VAX 8350!). It was common knowledge3 > > outside of DEC exactly what had happened (I wasr. > > a customer in a little backwater ... if we > > knew, everyone knew!). >eH > Let me guess.  DEC would gladly sell you an upgrade from 8500 to 8530, right? >n@ > It's still happening.  Certain Tektronix (Xerox) printers comeK > duplex-ready, but the firmware won't activate the duplexer unless you payeI > the $$$.  The "consumable" maintenace tray in these printers comes in aeD > standard version and a more expensive high-capacity version.  It'sF > basically a sponge on a roller to soak up the extra juice.  The onlyK > difference (other than price) between the two versions is the little chipeJ > that remembers how many pages are left before expiration.  The expensiveG > version comes with a chip initialized with a higher number.  When the 1 > count gets to zero, the printer goes on strike..  J I have no experience with the recent (well, perhaps not-so-recent in IBM'sI repertoire) practice of selling fully-configured machines (all the boardsnL right there inside) and charging only for the use of those portions you haveH paid to have enabled, but it seems not entirely dissimilar - as does theL practice of selling full-function software that has portions you have to pay more for to have enabled.   H That last makes perfect sense to me, since software production costs areB negligible compared with development costs (as long as you includeG maintenance as development).  And the argument that a larger market mayDI exist for lower-performance hardware at a lower price point such that younJ can make a profit there, but that another market exists that will pay moreH for higher performance hardware (even if it costs you the same amount toI build it), makes sense as well - at least as long as all your competitorsa< feel the same way and address the issue in a similar manner.  K So the bad taste may just be an artifact of an engineering viewpoint rathero than an absolute truth.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:47:38 -0400e2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS* Message-ID: <3B41DB0A.6EE65877@oracle.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:- > B > In article <3B40DFE0.C183EC48@iee.org>, arcarlini@iee.org wrote: >  > >d1 > > Now the VAX 8500 *was* deliberately crippled.c4 > > The original microcode had NOPs to slow it down.4 > > Very shortly afterwards came the VAX 8530 - same6 > > machine, but without the NOPs. (Not to be confused0 > > with the VAX 8350!). It was common knowledge3 > > outside of DEC exactly what had happened (I was.. > > a customer in a little backwater ... if we > > knew, everyone knew!). > O > Let me guess.  DEC would gladly sell you an upgrade from 8500 to 8530, right?   / 	as I recall, the 8500->8530 upgrade was "free"c4 in that all the 8500s got the "eco".  rumor was that5 there were some bugs fixed in the micro code and thate9 at some point it was found that the NOPs weren't requiredo for the timing on the boards.i -- l> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:17:24 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0307011117240001@user-2ive7ts.dialup.mindspring.com>  9 In article <3B41DB0A.6EE65877@oracle.com>, norm lastovicar$ <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> wrote:    J > > Let me guess.  DEC would gladly sell you an upgrade from 8500 to 8530, right? > 8 >         as I recall, the 8500->8530 upgrade was "free"6 > in that all the 8500s got the "eco".  rumor was that7 > there were some bugs fixed in the micro code and thatt; > at some point it was found that the NOPs weren't requireds > for the timing on the boards.A  F Aw, you're ruining a perfectly good conspiracy theory!  What's this NG
 coming to?   :-)    -- - Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:09:32 +10004 From: "Surapol Pungsornruk" <surapol@powerup.com.au>* Subject: ZT virtual tape driver for tcp/ip Message-ID: <3b418b51@grissom>  / Where can I find a tcp/ip version of ZT driver? @ I can only find a decnet version in fileserv at vms.process.com.  E I've looked in compaq web pages for freeware40 and freeware50 without. success.J I try looking at ftp.gwdg.de:/pub/vms as suggested by Moeller in a posting) dated May 97, but anonymous login failed.   J Please CC any reply to me by mail, since I may miss a reply in such a busy group as comp.os.vms.n   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jul 2001 15:58:49 -0700t- From: plequere@hotmail.com (Patrick LE QUERE)TT Subject: [FREEWARE] MAILBOX 0.7 : MIME-enabled user-friendly mail client for OpenVMS: Message-ID: <66f3c2.0107021458.302a0aa@posting.google.com>   Hi,a  : MAILBOX 0.7 for OpenVMS is now available - and still free.    
 HIGHLIGHTS
 ==========  D MAILBOX is a powerful and user friendly e-mail client for the COMPAQC OpenVMS operating system. It supports MIME attachments, features an1C addressbook, provides a multi-lingual user-friendly interface - andP more.2  E Due to numerous requests, I am now providing a command-line tool thatmF enables to send messages within command procedures. This tool supports0 attachments, BCC recipients, distribution lists.  < $ MLB_CMD SEND /Subject="Here are the files you requested" - 	/Body=MESSAGE_BODY.TXT -oB 	/Attachments=("INTRO.TXT", "CHART.XLS", "LISTING.C", "PIC.BMP") -, 	/To=(fred, "thisguy@sky.com", bob, chris) -0 	/Cc=("myboss@my-firm.com", "@colleagues.dis") - 	/Bcc="mulder@fbi.gov"  ) MAILBOX is fully compatible with VMSMail.a    	 CHANGELOGh	 =========e  D MAILBOX version 0.7 includes a brand new command-line tool, provides* new functions, and is highly customizable.   * New features  ?     - New command-line tool. Enables to send mail to TO, CC and D       BCC recipients. Supports MIME attachments and VMS distribution
       lists. iB     - Ability to block certain MIME attachments depending on their!       type or filename extension h@     - Ability to use another mail file than the default MAIL.MAI       mail file ;     - Ability to prevent new messages from being moved fromo       NEWMAIL to MAIL >     - Ability to retain messages in WASTEBASKET when quitting A     - Ability to choose the SMTP server (was previously localhostD       on TCP port 25) >     - Ability to force use of SMTP for all messages, including2       messages that may be transported by VMSMail   % * Installation procedure improvementsT  @     - MAILBOX provided as a ZIP file. Usage of RESET_BACKUP tool       is now deprecated. f?     - Improved installation procedure : executable programs are0B       automatically linked during the installation process so thatF       every platform and version of the operating system is supported.   * Interface improvements  B     - The number of unread messages on the first screen is updated       every 10 seconds  9     - Ability to set the default user interface language c8     - Ability to choose the editor used to edit messages       (EVE/TPU by default) u/     - Support of all sizes of terminal windows        - Menus do not wrap anymore    * Enhanced featuresh  <     - Enhanced MIME support. Support for complex multi-levelA       nested MIME structures (multipart/mixed, multipart/related,        multipart/alternative)  ,     - Base64 encoded bodies are now handled 4     - Base64 or QP encoded subjects are now decoded 5     - Base64 or QP encoded filenames are now decoded e   * Bug fixes   A     - Infamous "Quota exceeded" error when extracting attachmentsa fixedj     - Many other bug fixes       DOWNLOAD ========  ; MAILBOX is available for free at http://patrick.lequere.netw  F Please take a few seconds to fill the registration form - we'd like to know who you are !  D Then jump to the Installation and Configuration page to learn how toE install and configure MAILBOX. In particular, you can block dangerousc attachments.      " THANKS FOR YOUR HELP AND SUPPORT !" ==================================  B I am grateful to all of you that took the trouble to write me, and report bugs.  A Plase forgive me if you wrote me some monthes ago and never got a?* response - my laptop hard disk crashed :-(    5 Would you like to participate to the MAILBOX effort ?h  7     * Please report any bug you may encounter using the 3       Bug Report Form at http://patrick.lequere.net :     * I am looking for anyone willing to translate MAILBOX!       into his/her own language.  ?     * I am looking for a technical writer, or anyone that could-5       devote time to rewrite MAILBOX documentation...:=     * Are you a PostScript guru ? There may be a job for you.9  - Please contact me at patrick(at)lequere.net !<. Your help and support are greatly appreciated.   Patricke  ' PS : I do not check my Hotmail address.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:51:10 +0200r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oY Subject: Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B4108EE.D1414FF1@infopuls.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:.   [SNIP]  C > Please cite your reference for the "MIT guy".  I note that all of B > the references I gave above are fairly recent, most of them lessB > than 60 days old.  Could be that a new revision of Websphere has" > addressed the problems he cited?  ? Yup, the reference is about 18 months old but the architecturalh@ mistakes are hardly repaired because that would imply a complete@ re-write from scratch. Moreover the enormous problems at a major? bank are caused by the current version and are not solved until0@ now by a bunch of very expensive IBM people. Ant for the mission: critical systems they still use Netscape Enterprise Server@ because it's simply much more stable and does what it should do.  A > Apparently, some reviewers have found Websphere to be useful at-D > least in some situations.  YMMV, but your sweeping generalizations2 > about IBM developed software seem unsupportable.   [SNIP]  ) > Useless is how you would describe DB/2?d  < Depends on the taks you have to accomplish. It seemed by the> time then that DB/2 was much less versatile than other RDMBSs.  D > > Java is crap by design. Do you know the San Francisco Framework? > > Enough said. > >o > 2 > Still, a good JIT compiler is useful to someone.  ? Yup, exactly what I wanted to tell: wrong design, seduce peoplet@ to use it, rape them after they are locked in. JIT is a late fix@ to something what shouldn't have been broken in the first place.   [SNIP]  @ > A slow and sclerotic company would typically buy and mismanage? > technology, I would think, but they've done a pretty good jobi
 > with Lotus.w  > I think they didn't hurt it much. But honestly I don't see any> really especally good they did besides buying and recommending@ it to their user base (IBM's user base). This is a fine product.> To do almost nothing is enough to have the success it has now.@ But you reminded me to another negative point: Domino is by fare< not what it could be. Did you ever develop a web application with Domino?  C > Please explain.  I've read your initial post.  You only said that B > they had no useful piece of SW, but also that they were slow andA > sclerotic.  I don't see that a company that does groundbreakingrC > research into so many areas can be described accurately that way.S  1 I explicitly excluded the *HW* from my critiques.4  1 > Did you work for Sun in California at the time?2 >  > This page: > 6 >   http://java.sun.com/features/1998/05/birthday.html > F > says that the first release of Java was in March of 1995.  I find itI > difficult to beleive you were developing in Java in the summer of 1994.   @ Yup, you're right, I was working one year later on Java applets.  H > Also, please give me a citation for mobile Internet displays on trains > in the Summer of 1996.  9 Swiss Railways used them to show results from the Atlanta ? Olympic Games. I don't have a quote but read about the problemsr> to get the data from IBM in the newspapers. I'm not sure about= the year but it was when the Atlanta Olympic Games took placen= (as I mentioned I'm not interested in that kind of commerciald events and looking at sports).  G > While you're at it, tell me about all those other companies that werec@ > doing large Web Site management so well in the Summer of 1996.  < This is hard work. But there were competitors like Coopers &@ Lybrand which did decent web site architecturing. Managing large@ sites wasn't that popular because there weren't simply that many: large web sites. I'm not sure if the Atlanta Olympic Games> result distribution scheme can be compared to managing a large	 web site.y  F > Oh, but you are interested in criticizing IBM sports web sites.  YouE > were saying that IBM web sites are slow and poorly defined.  Pleased< > tell me who does it better?  They seem pretty good, today.  @ I know of several IBM web architectured web sites that fall into that category.@ Are you sure that the good ones you mentioned are really done by IBM?@ I do it better. This istn't a joke. I do web site architecturing@ (no aesthetical design I let it do by specialised companies) and= I check other sites for architecture design problems. Companyt4 that do better than IBM are FrameConcept (first hand= experience), Obtree (second hand) and Day Interactive (second  hand).  ? > Which facts are those?  I see very few 'facts', just a lot ofw* > unsubstatiated assertions in your posts.  ? I listed concrete example where IBM failed based on experience..  You could at least comment them.   [SNIP]  M > So, Apple is quick and IBM is slow?  Apple who's every software engineering:K > product is years late?  Apple who's cube has been a dismal failure? Apple:J > who still can't figure out what to do about their distribution channels?  8 I was using Steve Jobs as an example for a person with a< business vision. Quick doesn't mean you don't have delays it= means to my understanding you are aware of current trends andl. you are willing to follow or even to set them.   The cube is/was a failure?  I > > > OK.  Now I see!  An organization cannot have a vision.  So when youVF > > > said that IBM is "visionless" you were just stating a tautology! > >d > > Narrowminded.m > >  > " > I don't understand your comment.  > I was well aware of that problem but thought you would get the> benefit from my explanation instead of trying to fiddle around with words.e? A person can have a vision and share it with others. If this is = done within a company it could be said a company has a visionn= which is generalisation of saying each employee has that verym: same vision. To have several visions is useless because it/ destroys the effect of sharing the same vision.n  G > > > But wait, now you are saying that almost every other company (alliI > > > organizations) show more vision than IBM.  How can you show more ofeC > > > something that you can't have at all by your own definitions.h > >oA > > Don't waste your time with that type of arguing. Think about!e@ > > You won't learn anything. It's like arguing about grammar or > > other language attributes. > >' > G > What do you mean here?  We are talking about language attributes, youbH > know, the meaning of words.  You appear to want them to mean something > different.   Sigh.n  F > > > I have to admit that I don't understand your post, as you accuseF > > > me of above.  But then, it appears you don't understand what you5 > > > are saying either, so I can perhaps be excused.J > >0B > > Not at all. And as you might have noticed despite your limitedB > > understanding: there are different topics in this conversationB > > and if you don't understand one part - the one I was referringC > > to - it means that you didn't understand my post as a whole but.D > > that doesn't mean that you could transfer your  problem from one- > > part to another where it might not exist.A > >0 > D > These debates are made up of words and those words have a definiteD > meaning.  Since you refuse to define any of your terms, I can onlyE > try to devine your meaning from how you use them.  Since you refuse57 > to define your terms, I have to try and decipher whatwF > you mean from context.  When I find that you are using the same wordG > inconsistently (accusing IBM of being visionless and then saying thaty4 > an organization cannot have vision), I'm confused.   Sigh.e  L > Please clear this conflict up for me.  It should be simple... Just provideG > dictionary definition(s) of vision.  Show me how you can say that IBM"L > is visionless (and that most other companies have more vision) and how, on5 > the other hand, an organization cannot have vision.p   See above. Is it okay?  E > While you are at it, also define useless.  You seem to use a lot of  > words in non-standard ways.e   useless = IBM SW overpriced = IBM servicesr  L > I wouldn't say that 'vision' as I'm using it is a mystical knowledge, likeG > a crystal ball gazer has, it's more like foresight, perception, which.F > implies being able to accurately gauge the future in a reasoned, not > mystical, way. > 0 > Who knows what it means to you, you won't say.  @ In the context of business it expresses the idea of a goal. In a: certain way it is even the oposite of what your definition> implies: it is a force to change the direction into the future= in a way that the foresight isn't met but instead a differenta "version" is created.s  > Simple example: the foresight is that Linux will have a market? share of 50% in the small and medium server range by the end ofe= 2003. The vision of Capellas is that VMS is much than all them> UNIX and IBM SW .... (please replace the four dots with a very< strong pejorative word with exactly four letters - no digits@ allowed, sorry) and will have a market share of 1% by the end of? 2003. Capellas will all he can do to reach this goal to live upn to his vision.   [SNIP]  A > As I said, Lotus probably had targets for the markets they were D > selling into.  They weren't going to develop a client for a marketA > that was tiny.  So, part of the world and business area doesn't 5 > really come into it, just size of the total market.0  = Wrong strategy. If you lose a country you lose much more than.@ only the points in market share of that country because you make: whole bunch of solutions based on that piece obsolete. And@ replicating solutions is one of the key success factors of large companies like IBM.    [SNIP]  @ > Talk about different contexts.  I never claimed that those whoA > questioned your judgement here were right.  I was only pointingeB > out how irrelevant it is to point out what others may or may not) > have questioned in earlier discussions.n  . It seems that you did this in the first place.  ? > It was just a stupid ad hominem attack using the authority of A > others that you didn't name against me.  The suggestion is thaty> > I've often found to be inaccurate in the past.  Mostly, it's@ > Andrew Harrison that's questioning my inaccuracy.  If you want< > to agree with AH, fine, but don't just make these sweeping< > attacks against me without being expected to back them up.  8 As I stated AH no valuable reference point in either way? (negative or positive): he simply doesn't count. As I mentioned-= I only stated my observation and I related that to your firstr
 sentences.   [SNIP]  @ > > Now, I don't regard AH as valuable source of information and > > critiques.C > > I thought about other posters who questioned your point of viewr/ > > (vision?) of HW development and assessment.c > >n >  > Who has done this?  9 This is hard work to find out. I clearly remember that itg@ happened. If there had be some betting system in the web I would8 propose some kind of bet: if I can find the people I win= otherwise you win. Is there any alternative which rewards them person who is right?   [SNIP]  A > > Read your first sentences again. You are changing the subjectsB > > here. I never critisised that you're doubting my facts but the= > > style of your post. And I was completely specific on that D > > (quoting, if you remember) that there is no technical reason why) > > you could have mismachted my comment.0 > >+ > A > I'm not changing the subject.  You said that I started the kind B > of argumentation that I was criticizing.  I was criticizing yourB > making highly charged, sweeping generalizations.  I haven't done > that.i  7 I referred to a different statement from you when I was  critisising what you wrote.f   [SNIP]   > > If that was the reason ...C > > Besides simple management mistakes it was the lack of a vision!a > >  > G > A lack of vision that helped to establish the IBM PC as the 'Industryy? > Standard' and led to IBM dominating the desktop for 10 years.-  ? Incredible, is this really your understanding of what happened?q< Aren't you really interested in the forces behind the scene?   [SNIP]   > -Jordan Hendersond > jordan@greenapple.comS   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:52:32 +0200L) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>sY Subject: Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?i, Message-ID: <3B410940.F1A8D106@infopuls.com>  
 dooley wrote:a > / > <all snipped out of respect for our audience>t5 > reading this was like watching elephant seals fight 7 > (there may be some point to it, but both participantso > end up looking dumb) > Phil  > This was exactly the post the audience was expecting! Should I add: "from you"?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.366 ************************SAGE_BODY.TXT -oB 	/Attachments=("INTRO.TXT", "CHART.XLS", "LISTING.C", "PIC.BMP") -, 	/To=(fred, "thisguy@sky.com", bob, chris) -0 	/Cc=("myboss@my-firm.com", "@colleagues.dis") - 	/Bcc="mulder@fbi.gov"  ) MAILBOX is fully compatible with VMSMail.a    	 CHANGELOGh	 =========e  D MAILBOX version 0.7 includes a brand new cF&R<R6(PC@A,HEUE3W(F9,D*L@#`2Y5&R(B<0B"2 =M*BZZD,DTEJ$@&`\*$D8C-[%#&/816Y`2D9]!$>Q#2)RI1$_;6524>KA2<\,D3 =MH4T#UAR"JQ;4;+V3\_0LV:9!\/O)A+\QM5IWD0J62R1EC:,IB+\%[1TY@1>Q4 =M[L*,!?69X><&QB&NR7J55GL3=]T@YBH#_TF0URU=+O"Z^S%J41=Q0"2LP436 5 =M:\VCL7,8H.JA;8-3_]WF"(F\\;`(9>TL=O!GNT0@``!:;LC.&C!H%',:.@D.6 =M9(D94`<^8MY7"3KZ-<F9!'KU)+!XK=[`A$TW/![/E9X)H]*6CU(>CT6U2*2R7 =MPR6DI;/_'0?EY\D7%Y<=PD@XNQ`LL=+[H13AXA8X96,A]<'-:=N+9O,$"5:[
8 0 58066.16565^^1169 dically from data gathered $%CP9%!\X'80GM    