1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 08 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 376       Contents: Re: A little weekend humour  Re: A little weekend humour  Re: axp 150 memory help  Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Creating a batch process?  Re: DSL for OpenVMS  Re: Experience with EMC storage  Re: Experience with EMC storage  Re: FUD $ Re: Helper applications with Mozilla= Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?  Re: Network Printers1 Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events... 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated . Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node name. Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node name. Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node name Re: vax 4000/90 ' Re: VAXstation 3100m76 Netscape trouble  Re: will the irony never cease  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:34:15 +0200, From: "Dave McDonald" <browser@acenet.co.za>$ Subject: Re: A little weekend humour- Message-ID: <9i8tvv$ilu$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>    Hear hear, brother.   @ Many of us outside the US can only shake our heads in wonder andA bewilderment at the inability or unwillingness of so many to take K responsibility for their own actions or mistakes or stupidity, and the ease 2 with which they make vast sums of money out of it.  
 Dave McDonald  Johannesburg   (Did I hear a whisper "troll"?)         7 "islandco.com" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message ) news:tkdkt91c0grsba@news.supernews.com... : > Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . . > J > If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap > while % > driving, she blames the restaurant.  > J > If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music or > musician he liked. > J > If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your > family > blames the tobacco company.  > F > If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the school > for  > poor sex education.  > J > If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you blame the  > bartender. > F > If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin > was ? > dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.  > H > If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television. > @ > If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun
 manufacturer.  > F > And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the pilots > atE > 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the  deceased > blames the airline.  > L > I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore. So if I L > die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this computer, I want > you  > to blame Bill Gates, OK? >  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:27:31 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) $ Subject: Re: A little weekend humour0 Message-ID: <009FEB18.AD4E6EAD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ^ In article <tkdkt91c0grsba@news.supernews.com>, "islandco.com" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:9 >Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . .  > I >If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap  >while$ >driving, she blames the restaurant. > I >If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music or  >musician he liked.  > I >If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your  >family  >blames the tobacco company. > L >If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the school >for >poor sex education. > M >If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you blame the  >bartender.  > L >If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin >was> >dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones. > G >If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.  > M >If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun manufacturer.  > L >And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the pilots >at M >35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased  >blames the airline. > M >I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore. So if I K >die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this computer, I want  >you >to blame Bill Gates, OK?  >    Hey David, you forgot:  L If you're a relatively obscure company that mistreats and underpays its bestL asset -- their best and brightest employee -- the relatively obscure companyB then blames the employee and sues the company that hires him away.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 04:27:10 -0500 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>   Subject: Re: axp 150 memory help3 Message-ID: <3B48276E.905F2F69@applied-synergy.com>    Duncan Brown wrote:  >  > F > I have two of these, and I don't think I have any DEC memory left inG > them at all!  Your specs above are all correct.  I know (from trying) F > that 8MB sticks do not work; I never had any 32MB sticks to try so IF > don't know about that - I have been living under the assumption thatA > they're maxed out at 128MB, which has been plenty for my needs.   F FWIW: Some 8MB sticks do work.  My AXP 150 has 96MB, 4x16MB and 4x8MB.  H In fact, the AXP 150 came to me with 4 8MB sticks.  I bought it used, soF I'm not 100% sure, but I think that they were DEC SIMMs.  I'm using it* right now or I would open it up to check.   G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com     Fax: 817-237-3074    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 14:05:16 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 + Message-ID: <3B484C7C.D5EBD86@infopuls.com>    Vance Haemmerle wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:  > >  > > Vance Haemmerle wrote:L > > >   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionN > > > was that data files could stay the same even though the executables wereJ > > > different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it'sK > > > almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really be J > > > emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofM > > > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going to % > > > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?  > > B > > The is a chance that the other migration direction i.e. from a< > > slower CPU to a faster one would make an emulation in SW > > acceptable.  > I >   You mean from Alpha to IPF?  Unlike the Tru64 side, VMS on Alpha used K > F and G floats by default, and D-floats with a compile switch. I see lots H > of VMS users with datafiles having floats in the VAX format.  With theG > VAX to Alpha migration, these data files could be left unconverted as K > Alpha had hardware support for the VAX float arithmetic.  If IPF supports N > this in only software VMS is gonna be really slow for a lot of applications., > More reason to convert off of VMS I guess. >  > --D > Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USM > Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/   < Converting them while reading and storing will not slow down; anything. The only thing you have to care about is that you = don't lose precision while converting back and forth. This is > normally done by using a bigger type for calculations than for storing.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 14:06:07 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 + Message-ID: <3B484CAF.19814DD@infopuls.com>    Magnus M wrote:  >  > Vance Haemmerle wrote: >  > > Christof Brass wrote:  > >  > >>Vance Haemmerle wrote: > >>K > >>>  That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transition M > >>>was that data files could stay the same even though the executables were I > >>>different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it's J > >>>almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really beI > >>>emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because of L > >>>the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going to$ > >>>be emulating VAX floats on IPF? > >>> B > >>The is a chance that the other migration direction i.e. from a< > >>slower CPU to a faster one would make an emulation in SW > >>acceptable.  > >> > > K > >   You mean from Alpha to IPF?  Unlike the Tru64 side, VMS on Alpha used M > > F and G floats by default, and D-floats with a compile switch. I see lots J > > of VMS users with datafiles having floats in the VAX format.  With theI > > VAX to Alpha migration, these data files could be left unconverted as M > > Alpha had hardware support for the VAX float arithmetic.  If IPF supports P > > this in only software VMS is gonna be really slow for a lot of applications.. > > More reason to convert off of VMS I guess. > >  > > --F > > Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USO > > Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/  > >  > I > Or one could argue that people who write performance sensitive software E > should be able to convert their datafiles, if they can't I wouldn't D > really trust them to develop performance sensitive software in the > first place... > 	 > /magnus   < The problem of converting the files is that you can't access" them with the old apps thereafter.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 07:28:02 GMT  From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com & Subject: Re: Creating a batch process?8 Message-ID: <370gkt8orje0b7h9sv7ie6frahfs4o924m@4ax.com>  C On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 20:58:31 GMT, Steve Thompson <smt@twcny.rr.com>  wrote:   >Strange question... > K >Anyone know if it is possible to create a detached process via $CREPRC and F >have it appear to itself to be a batch process? (ie, f$mode() returnsJ >"BATCH"). The documentation for $CREPRC mentions the PRC$M_BATCH flag andG >says essentially "don't do this", which has me wondering. (Yes, I know J >that there would be no queue context behind it, and yes, I have tried it)  : likely off in the 'unsupported but seems to work" category  3 below is a fragment of a ditty we use  to kick off  = a login on OPA0:.. iirc, the 13th param (undoc'ed) to $creprc 5 was needed, if the login was to have cmd-line recall. < (someone w/ src listings might be able to confirm/deny this)  9 Also, iirc, one could dicker w/ the PRC$M_INTER/BATCH/etc 3 and f$mode() from this login would behave thusly.   ; (could be wrong, I don't have time to go back && test this)      const unsigned int  
     stsflg =           0 |          PRC$M_PSWAPM |         PRC$M_NOACNT |         PRC$M_DETACH |           PRC$M_INTER  |  2         PRC$M_NOPASSWORD;                            typedef struct  {      unsigned short  attr;      unsigned short  attr_len;      unsigned int    trans_type;  }  ITMLST_SCT;         ITMLST_SCT       item_lst[4] = {          PRC$_INPUT_ATT, 4,)         LNM$M_TERMINAL | LNM$M_CONCEALED,          PRC$_OUTPUT_ATT, 4, )         LNM$M_TERMINAL | LNM$M_CONCEALED,          PRC$_OUTPUT_ATT, 4, )         LNM$M_TERMINAL | LNM$M_CONCEALED, 
         0, 0, 	         0      };  B // 13th parameter is an undocumented arg that effects the default ? // logical translation attributes for the process's SYS$INPUT,   // SYS$OUTPUT and SYS$ERROR.  : // (per Nick Abbot (CIS 70303,1354) 28-MAR-1992 23:17:28 )   sts = 
  SYS$CREPRC(       &pid,         &image_dsc,  // ie  loginout     &input_dsc,  // ie  opa0     &output_dsc, //     " C     0,           // p5  sys$error; ignored if image is LOGINOUT     6     0,           // p6  prvadr, 0 == use current privsC     0,           // p7  quota,  0 == use system default for now     B     &prcnam_dsc, // p8  name;  ignored when both( inter & detach)??     4,           // p9  base prio ...                           ?     0,           // p10 uic, 0 == use current UIC               ?     0,           // p11 mbx unit; no termination mbx            ?     stsflg,      // p12 process options                         ?     &item_lst    // p13 sys$input, output, error log attr.           );   >Second question...  > I >How does the SHOW MEMORY command calculate the value that it puts in the G >output as "free physical memory"? There is no $GETSYI item code for it J >that I can see, and I don't have access to the source listings right now.6 >Both of these are for VMS 6.2 and up, VAX and Alpha.> >-s    perhaps look at :   3 ftp://ftp.hhs.dk/pub/vms/collection/show_memory.zip    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 13:29:35 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: DSL for OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <009FEB18.F72F6BBE@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <UQM17.4789$Ib.498485@news1.primary.net>, "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> writes: C >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in 3 >message news:009FE997.67E0E6FC@SendSpamHere.ORG... I >> In which box???  My Netopia has a direct connection from the dedicated + >> service phone block to the modem/router.  >>G >You have one of the better ones, but which flavor of DSL is it?  SDSL, H >ADSL, RADSL, GLITE?  That's why most do not include the DSL part, thereD >is no one version.  You are fortunate the particular model you haveH >works with your provider.  I have SDSL at work and ADSL at home, modems >are not compatible. >   Jack Peacock  7 In my case, the DSL provider provided the modem/router.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 17:16:38 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>( Subject: Re: Experience with EMC storage) Message-ID: <3B48960F.69B6D782@wi.rr.com>   + I believe this will do what you require....   8  http://www.compaq.com/products/sanworks/sanmgt/scs.html  
 -Scott :^)   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  
 > mulp wrote:  > > 5 > > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message ' > > news:3B466C1D.64FCBE47@wi.rr.com... I > > > really liked the management software.  Kicked the hell out of SWCC.  > > O > > That's like saying that roller blades are superior to a brick for commuting  > > 30 miles to work.  > > H > > SWCC was known by all engineers, including the ones working on it asJ > > virtually useless.  Problem reports seem to generate even more glowingP > > product brochures rather than adding engineering resources to the project to# > > make it even marginally useful.  > G > IMO, one of the biggest drawbacks was the lack of a command-line SWCC I > client for OpenVMS. We've been screaming for years (some of us, anyway) H > for a way to command HSx controllers from a batch job in a supported /@ > supportable way, rather than using hacks like HSDSA-SCRIPT andI > pseudo-terminals (FTAu: devices) in subprocesses, either from DCL or in  > perl scripts.  > B > VMS and related peripherals *MUST* be managed from VMS, not fromD > BillyWare or anything else, except that those other platforms be a= > secondary consideration, rather than a primary requirement.  >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. > B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. > H > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 17:20:45 GMTs$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>( Subject: Re: Experience with EMC storage( Message-ID: <3B489706.77AD920@wi.rr.com>  
 Koloth wrote:   F > 3) Does having the cached mirrored and the external batteries on theE > Compaq's HSG80 make it reliable enough to just use controller based / > mirroring versus host based volume shadowing?   I I don't quite see the relationship between HBVS and mirrored cache in theh controllers....s  K The mirrored-cache only comes into play when you enable write-back caching. E You can run controller-based mirrors without having writeback cachings enabled.   -Scott   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jul 2001 11:58:04 -0400t/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)- Subject: Re: FUD* Message-ID: <9i9vuc$plg$1@lisa.gemair.com>  O In article <9i8org$r7t$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:A >t= >"Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in messaget% >news:9i8kao$hdu$1@lisa.gemair.com...sK >> In article <9i5emk$fbh$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n >wrote:r >> >@ >> >"Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message( >> >news:9i4j8s$bbk$1@lisa.gemair.com... >h >... >eD >> >There's always been significant divergence of opinion on Alpha'sL >> >really-low-end potential, and I've tended to think that it was mostly inF >> >non-desktop areas (compatible low-end adjuncts to higher-end AlphaJ >> >installations and inexpensive ISV development platforms, for example). >ButM >> >I'd sure rather have seen DEC and later Compaq do *something* rather thanb" >> >*nothing* with the technology. >> > >>D >> The problem with a mid-range to high-end only strategy is that it' >> ultimately leads to marginalization.a >yK >'Ultimately' can, however, be long enough that other changes in the marketmG >become more important before the potential for marginalization has anybK >importance at all.  E.g., Alpha could have been riding very high for yearshJ >now, and continue to do so for years more to come, without having had anyF >significant presence in the low-end.  And IBM has reaped the high-endL >benefits of its S/360/370/390/z architecture for 37 years now, with never aM >hint of a low-end presence - Compaq would give its corporate soul (if it had.) >one) for that kind of 'marginalization'.d >d  I The market has changed substantially since IBM gained market dominance innG the late 60's with the 360 architecture.  This particular architecture eG has mindshare due to long incumbency and stability.  Something unlikelyaC to be duplicated with any other entry in the market except possibly J IA-32/64 (note that I include AMD here as they offer IA-32 compatibility).  I Even so, IBM has been working hard to maintain and renew the architecture G with Linux and Java initiatives.  Still, there has been a definite, but H slow decline in the market share for this architecture for 20 years that doesn't appear to be abating.r  H Note that IBM abandoned their own, niche CICS architecture for AS400 forI the commoditized Power architecture based AS400 systems and those systemsL are doing quite well.d  M >I'm afraid as long as there's reason to believe that a major market distinctfI >from the low-end desktop market will continue to exist, I don't see much.E >threat of marginalization in ignoring that desktop market.  You needmJ >inexpensive development systems, but DS10s handle that, even if something@ >about half their price would be nicer.  And lacking IA32 binaryB >compatibility (which FX!32 never seemed to make up for) any otherK >architecture (or OS) just isn't going to crack the Wintel desktop monopolysG >at this late date (or any time in the recent past) - with the possible L >exception of Linux (whose attractions are not those a commercial vendor can
 >emulate). >   F Fielding a lot of systems, particularly in the NT space, which is whatD I was proposing, would have been the good way to establish a desktopH presence for Alpha.  The availability of these systems would have helped! to establish Alpha/Linux as well.i  D Of course, this is all "coulda, woulda, shoulda" and who knows what F really might have been?  A company that was willing to take real risksF to push Alpha forward would have done something like this.  As it was,E you still had to get past a small lecture about what Alpha representstG and why you would want Alpha (rather than commodity processors or otheraF RISC offerings) to even get onto the RADAR of IT decision makers.  HadD there been a significant number of fielded, inexpensive NT and LinuxF machines running some kind of Alpha you wouldn't have this hurdle.  ITD decision makers would know that Alpha is that processor architectureF that runs apples-to-apples in commodity machines and has a big brother# that has world beating performance.a     >>> >> This is why IBM/Motorola has cultivated the Macintosh Power >> Architecture. >&M >I don't really see how that makes Power less 'marginalized' than Alpha:  the0K >Mac itself is on the margin compared with IA32 desktops.  And your examplemL >of Solaris below also represents a situation where the resulting system mayK >be inexpensive but the fact that it's running an OS that's well out of thee? >low-end Windows mainstream leaves the result marginal as well.I >o  H IT decision makers realize that IBM and Motorola have more investment inI the Power architecture and Apple marketing keeps impressing on those samet/ people that it is a viable and power processor.   @ What Sun has done with Solaris/x86 and their IA-64 ports is moreB subtle, but it's along the same lines.  IT decision makers believeD that Sun is a company that will make sure that their brand and theirA flagship OS will be available in the future through highly publice= moves such as the IA-64 port, etc.  Java everywhere has a lot-> to do with this strategy.  It's pushing mid-range and up, but > maintaining a credible presence on the low end.  Something CPQ had abandoned for Alpha.  0 >  This is why Sun kept alive Solaris on x86 and; >> demonstrated IA-64 Solaris _over a year ago_ and why Sun@< >> attempted to put Sparc in a lot of embedded applications.A >> It's why HP has been working with Intel on IA-64 for a decade. ? >> It's why MIPS positioned the R4000 as the most popular video  >> game controller.. >nJ >AFAICT, the only benefit higher-end MIPS products get from this is a more >viable parent corporation.  >   A Mindshare.  MIPS could brag that they had the most fielded 64 bitFA system in the world.  This strategy needed an IT counterpart, buti? it certainly didn't _hurt_ the R4000 that these were in so manym homes.  L >In sum, I see the marginalization argument as mostly theoretical:  possibleM >in the abstract, but without much practical evidence of there being any real 
 >issue there.c >c  B I would agree that it's somewhat speculative about what could have> been.  It would have been bold, and boldness is _exactly_ whatA Alpha needed, not more glossy brochures, roadmaps and eye-glazinga presentations.   >>A >> A lot of people assume that IA-32 will be the low end offeringf< >> for the foreseeable future, and that IA-64 will be only aA >> server architecture.  I think this is extremely short sighted.c= >> While you can perform various tricks to extend the addressi: >> space of 32 bit processors beyond 32 bits, they are allD >> unsatisfactory for a number of reasons.  Once _some_ applicationsE >> start requiring additional address space beyond 32 bits, and therenB >> are widely available 64 bit processors available, the switch to; >> 64 bit architectures will be rapid, even on the desktop.  >lH >Again, the date when 64-bit architectures on the desktop will become ofM >significant importance is yet to be determined.  And at present AMD-64 seemsr5 >better-positioned for the transition than IA64 does.c >uI >It's not yet clear how Intel will obtain the higher processor margins it0G >says its wants with IA64 if it's going to sell it into the lowest-end,uH >highest-volume market (ignoring the reportedly poor performance of IA32< >applications on IA64, which will be a real issue for years. >   G Perhaps.  I think eventually you'll see a little-brother line of IA-64 aJ (and AMD-64) and a high-end line of IA-64 systems too.  The little-brotherJ implementations will piggy back on your development of high end, offerringE last generation clock speeds and reduced cache hierarchies, but with  , associated lower margins and higher volumes.   >>A >> DEC needed a low end strategy to get Alpha into a lot of handspD >> and into a lot of applications.  Not doing this sealed it's fate, >> ultimately. > H >Alpha's fate was sealed solely by Compaq's deciding to drop it:  it hadI >major profit potential since before Compaq acquired it, and continues totM >have it for *at least* several more years (under the worst assumptions about G >IA64's eventual inevitable dominance; under other assumptions, Alpha's  >future has no obvious limit). >DK >It didn't need anything more than it already had in the low end to achievea9 >that potential, just an owner that wanted it to succeed.m >a  H I dunno.  I think it was already marginalized.  What do you run on your I Alphas?  Tru64, OpenVMS and Linux?  Tru64 continues to lose market share.sE OpenVMS might be holding it's market share or losing very slowly, buteD it continues to lose ISV support, which can't bode well.  OpenVMS isD similar to S/360, mindshare through incumbency and a slow decline inE a customer base that is reluctant to introduce instability into their I shops.  Some possibilities existed for Alpha/Linux, but only if you couldwB get cheap commodity hardware into the hands of the hordes of LinuxG developers.  As it was, those Linux/Alpha developers were, for the mostnD part using systems that were 3 years old or more that had no market E value and performed poorly over what they could put together for $500 ! with 1 year old Intel technology.a   >>= >> If nothing else, you have to have a processor architecture : >> in a lot of places only to support the mindshare angle. >eM >That's ridiculous.  Cray had plenty of mindshare - and Alpha for that mattermJ >did as well.  So do non-low-end IBM systems.  You're offering platitudes,M >not facts:  they can have relevance, but tend to be of secondary rather than  >primary importance. >r  F Cray had plenty of mindshare, again, due to incumbency.  Everyone knewI that Cray dominated the supercomputer market for the last 35 years (goingsF back to the CDC successes).  Cray _had_ plenty of mindshare, true, but9 with Seymour Cray now dead, I don't see any future there.p  8 I've outlined why IBM continues to have mindshare above.   >  ITw> >> managers don't want to invest in something that may be gone >> tomorrow. >r% >Now *that's* much closer to reality.e >d1 >  Nobody, and I mean nobody, believes that IA-64b >> will be gone tomorrow,  >oJ >Intel does make mistakes, and is willing to walk away from them - witness
 >the i860. >b  E Don't bet that they'll walk away from IA-64.  If they have to retreathD from IA-64, they will be a very different company than they are now.9 It will have meant that they lost their market dominance.H  $ > which is the justification for CPQB >> moving to IA-64 for everything.  If there were an active market@ >> in commodity Alphas, people would feel similarly about Alpha. >dJ >But there wasn't.  And there quite possibly never would have been, unlessH >DEC had been on the ball in making VMS the next-step-beyond-the-desktopL >standard starting before Alpha even existed to keep Windows corraled in the	 >low-end.$ >TF >SUN, IBM, HP, and once upon a time DEC proved beyond any doubt that aL >commodity market is by no means a necessary condition for having confidenceI >in a vendor and in its (non-commodity) products (and I suspect there are,J >good examples of situations in which it has proved not to be a sufficient >condition as well). >   B "at one time" is the operative term here.  The market has changed.C Today's risk avoiding IT manager buys commodity (or upscale systems C based on commodity components).  Nobody will get fired for speccing  IA-64.   >>M >> >Conversely, there's been very little opinion to the effect that Alpha wasaL >> >anything but near-ideally positioned to succeed in the mid-range and up, >so?K >> >I tend to think that concentrating most effort there at least initially # >> >would have made the most sense.I >> > >>A >> The plan I outlined would have diverted few resources from the  >concentration >> on the high-end,  >iH >As long as your plan allowed concentration on the mid-range-and-up, andG >mostly provided reasonable low-end offerings for people who found themHK >useful, I'd be all for it:  while I think one should focus one's attentionpA >on the areas with the greatest obvious profit potential (both in G >applicability and margin), I heartily agree that giving other areas ant8 >opportunity to indicate their potential is a good idea. > = > it would have cost only as much as is necessary to keep theiJ >> Hudson plant at 100% utilization rather than the pitiful 30% (or worse) >they L >> maintained for years (that and a pittance in developing and manufacturingB >> commodity motherboards).  I suppose you would have had to spend >_something_J >> to market these commodity motherboards, but really the idea would be to >sellrD >> them at giveaway prices to clone vendors (and your own DEC badged
 >commodityJ >> machines) and let those channels do the marketing alongside other WinNTA >> machines.  Keeping Hudson well utilized would have driven down  >manufacturing5 >> costs for high-end Alphas and empowered an army ofo >WinNT/Linux/OpenVMS/Tru64, >> developers for native Alpha applications. >eM >That's where I think you're really dreaming.  Windows won the desktop battleoM >a decade or more ago, Intel won the hardware battle for Windows at somewheresI >around the same time (or you could say it won it yet a decade earlier byoL >being IBM's choice for its PC), and neither has left much of an opening for@ >outside attack (save for Win64 on Alpha, and Compaq blew that). >'  K Exactly.  Note that my plan explicitly had provision for WinNT on Alpha.  Ii would extend that to Win64."  L >Even if you accept the contention that there's a real opportunity for AlphaJ >in the low end, making low-end Alphas available and then letting any suchI >market find uses for them makes much more sense than making a major push D >that could easily result in a highly-visible (and expensive:  major8 >corporate efforts cost major amounts of money) failure. >  >  It would have only been( >> complementary to a high-end strategy. >eK >I don't agree that an effort large enough to be considered 'complementary'eM >was indicated.  As I said above, making reasonably-priced hardware availableiL >(e.g., as Sun has done), letting nature take its course, and then *if* someH >real opportunity becomes evident jumping on it seems a better approach. > $ >  Maybe you could argue that the $4G >> Billion could have been spent on marketing of mid-range and up Alphah	 >systems,i >eL >Absolutely.  Without that, nothing else would make a damn bit of differenceK >(though I'd have split it between marketing and some visionary development M >efforts, since the latter are a much truer indicator of long-term commitmento >and people *are* watching). >s  H Do we really have any indication that DEC saved any expense on visionaryF development?  Some problems can't be solved with just money.  Now, it / seems, you are retreating to the 'theoretical'.   M >> but I don't know what would have been better marketing than getting Alphas K >> out onto the street giving people assurance that Alpha was here to stay.r >oJ >Demonstrating commitment to Alpha in its existing markets would have beenM >far more effective in generating such assurance than any other approach thatoD >in any way compromised that goal.  'On-the-street' people don't buyF >mid-range systems, and the systems they *do* buy are not suitable for >mid-range systems.  >   G All of the IT decision makers I know are also 'On-the-street' people.  oI These people are more comfortable with the familiar, be it IBM mainframesoE that were old before they entered the industry or commodity processoruE architectures.  Commitment is all about getting your name in front of:H people.  It's why GE has brand ads on Sunday news shows.  'Alpha inside'J on the desktop would have gone a long way toward demonstrating commitment.  K >As I observed earlier, IBM mainframes have (and seem likely to continue toaL >have) precisely zero 'on-the-street' presence - and they're credible as all2 >get-out.  Alphas could easily have been the same. >   B Alpha could have easily established themselves with a huge body of@ 40 year old COBOL programs that nobody wants to touch again (nowC that the Y2K scare has passed)?  I think you fail to understand why-. IBM mainframes continue to have 'credibility'.   >- bill  >d >>K >> >Instead, we've mostly just waited for Compaq to get its act together to$ >see4 >> >which direction it would take.  And now we know. >> >
 >> >- bill >> > >> >>o
 >> >> >- bill  >> >> >H >> >> >  >> >> >i >> >>i >> >> -Jordan Henderson  >> >> jordan@greenapple.comr >> >>s >> > >> > >> >> -Jordan Henderson >> jordan@greenapple.com >> >v >m   -Jordan Henderson> jordan@greenapple.como   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jul 2001 14:58:40 +0100mO From: pmoreau@dev.ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)o- Subject: Re: Helper applications with Mozilla   Message-ID: <TnaKSrW4k0ee@sable>  + In article <3b478deb$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, -, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:  g > In article <01K5KV993DV68ZEP28@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, ZINSER@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com writes: D >>	I've tried to setup helper applications with Mozilla, but without7 >>	success. Specifically I used the following settings:- >> >>	Name: Adobe PDF files >>	Extension: PDF  >>	MIME Type: application/pdfi >>	Handled By Application xpdf >  > Wasn't it "xpdf %s" ?e  I The helpers support seems to be broken with Mozilla 0.91 and 0.92 .May be  specific to the VMS port ? g  O There is another regression with 0.92: background images are not displayed (noto specific to the VMS port).  @ I stay with 0.91 , performances are good (far better than 0.90).   Patrick  --O ===============================================================================aO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU) 4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 01:06:11 -0500e* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>F Subject: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?+ Message-ID: <3B47F853.389A107D@prodigy.net>    Christoph Gartmann wrote:e >  <snip> > L > Quite simple: a combination of 1 and 2. I don't buy processors, I buy OSesO > and software. So as long as I don't need more computing power I go for optionoM > 1. When I need more power, I buy what's available and fits my requirements.oL > If the VMS hardware sold at this point is Alpha-based, I buy Alphas. If itJ > is Itanium-based I buy Itanium. Important to me is that I am able to mix% > systems like with VAXen and Alphas.l  N You'll need different binaries, which could complicate your life considerably,K especially if your vendors decide this might be a good time to re-evaluate i their business models.   <snip>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 07:54:00 +0100i/ From: Dave Barlow <yelmalio@sartar.fsnet.co.uk>n Subject: Re: Network Printersn8 Message-ID: <krufkt0uc3huk3u3h8rjvhkqdffcf0od4g@4ax.com>  C On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:00:07 +0900, "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net>g wrote:  I >Sorry to post this silly questions, but I am kind of new to this job ands2 >confusing about the type of printer I should buy  <snip>L >are there any printers out there that support this OpenVMS platform?  Or do) >I have to purchase printers from Compaq?o >Thank you.s  @ I'm playing around with getting an old Oracle app that currentlyE prints to LA series dot matirx printers, it uses Proprinter codes, toeC work with DCPS V2 and Lexmark S series laser printers. I can easilysA get VAX/VMS V6.n/7.n to print plain text to the Lexmark printers,oF connected using Marknet Pro network boxes, by printing to port 9100 onE the Marknet Pro's. I have to use DCPS to do the Proprinter conversions and it works a treat.   E We also have about 200+ LPD queues printing to numerous OKI laser andlC Dot Matrix printers connected via NT4 print servers. HP lasers workr just as well.   E Providing the printer supports either Raw/TCP or LPD VMS can print tohC it. You may need DCPS V2 to do any clever formatting though. Unlessr- you want to create device control libraries. s   Dave Barlowa   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 12:22:33 -0400o2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger): Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0807011222330001@user-2iveb78.dialup.mindspring.com>  7 In article <3B474299.AFCFEDB2@ui.urban.org>, Jim Beckero <jbecker@ui.urban.org> wrote:h  F > Not exactly a reply to Ken's message -- I'm just swiping his subject	 > line...  > G > Our organization was, before the recent turn of events, just about todB > buy another Alpha running OpenVMS. We're not a big shop, so thisH > wasn't a trivial decision. We like VMS and we like the Alpha, but when? > a vendor announces plans to discontinue one platform and portrD > "everything" to another platform to be made by some other company,A > it's just good business sense for us to re-assess our decision.g   <snip>  F You raised many good points.  Some of them are directly under compaq'sJ control.  I suggest you put the questions for Compaq in a nice letter, andC send it to Rich Marcello.  Make it plain that your next alphaservert@ purchase is ON HOLD until you see concrete movement in the right directions.k  I Keep in mind that it is less than 2 weeks since the public announcement.  3 You shouldn't expect concrete timetables yet, IMHO.   I Similar letters should go to the vendors of your important applications. vI They may need even more time, since they have to read Compaq's tea leaves " before they worry about their own.   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comu   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:33:56 +0000 (UTC)' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)n: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <9i9jvj$o6d$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>a  u In article <fmx17.7103$G_1.714731@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:b > 7 >"Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageoM >news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4AD7EDA@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net...o >eI >For example, I don't think that any of the people involved with vest areeF >still around.  A lot of the product management folk who worked issuesF >related to figuring out which products actually exist and are used byG >customers to figuring out the 2-5-2 number that needs to go on the SSB  >submit form are long gone.r >o >   P Talking of VEST. Will there be a "VEST" for vested images. ie a utility to take F images which were vested onto Alpha and reconvert them to run on IA64.  > Many users are still running Vested applications on Alpha VMS.P I maybe wrong but I seem to recall that parts of Alpha VMS are still just vested images.l    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 06:44:14 -0600c% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>l: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010708064214.00ad2808@ntbsod.psccos.com>  # At 06:33 AM 7/8/2001, D.Webb wrote:r  L >Talking of VEST. Will there be a "VEST" for vested images. ie a utility to  >take G >images which were vested onto Alpha and reconvert them to run on IA64.a >a? >Many users are still running Vested applications on Alpha VMS.bK >I maybe wrong but I seem to recall that parts of Alpha VMS are still just r >vestedt >images.  O I've heard that there won't be - a mistake in my estimation.  CPQ is making theaI vast assumption that everybody will have source code for all applicatons o they're M running.  And I think that's a very dangerous assumption, and could/will lead>K to scenarios of forcing people from VMS to, say, Linux or UNIX because theyp0 won't be able to run all of their existing apps.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+eI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |rI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |tI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |oI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+n   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jul 2001 08:05:44 CDTh= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)c7 Subject: Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node namen. Message-ID: <Ciyyu1tiEwjd@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  o In article <ah8pMvCEgpu3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:pp > In article <jDtSEaHye7t6@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell) writes: > O >> Since all of the vms stacks will automatically append the domain name to dnss' >> lookups as needed, I'm assuming thato >>  & >> 	$ this_node = f$getsyi("NODENAME") >> 	$ nslookup 'this_node' >>  O >> will always work, assuming the correct domain name (the one matching the dnsl/ >> entries) has been configured into the stack.> > @ > It should be possible to run an IP node without any DNS entry.  N Yes, of course, and it is possible to run an ip node with no name of any kind,L requiring all access to be by ip address.  Painful, but probably somebody is	 doing it.a  I I shouldn't have mentioned dns specifically.  I should have said "address M lookup by whatever method, including static host tables."  I show an nslookuphK of the machine's own node name as an example, but what I'm *really* talkingkN about is using gethostbyname specifying another node, again with just the node name and *not* the domain name.u    L Obviously, the other node has to be in the same domain for this to work.  InJ the particular application I am talking about, this is typically the case.     -- NO ===============================================================================tM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxi: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)-O ===============================================================================t? Flounder: "I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer."a>    Otter: "Face it, Flounder.  You threw up *on* Dean Wormer."   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jul 2001 08:22:51 CDTl= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)y7 Subject: Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node name . Message-ID: <tSts081exOXE@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  t In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0107071648010.32720-100000@ibmbox.vgersoft.com>, Steve Thompson <smt@twcny.rr.com> writes:' > On 7 Jul 2001, Larry Kilgallen wrote:t > q >> In article <jDtSEaHye7t6@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell) writes:y >>Q >> > Since all of the vms stacks will automatically append the domain name to dnse) >> > lookups as needed, I'm assuming thatl >> >( >> > 	$ this_node = f$getsyi("NODENAME") >> > 	$ nslookup 'this_node' >> >Q >> > will always work, assuming the correct domain name (the one matching the dnsc1 >> > entries) has been configured into the stack.A >>A >> It should be possible to run an IP node without any DNS entry.e > = > And then you have systems with multiple network interfaces.c  C What's that got to do with it?  We're talking about name to addressiO translation.  The multiple addresses aren't necessarily reflected in the dns or>O host table entry for that node.  If you do a gethostbyname, you assume that youeO get back an ip address that will work.  What we're talking about the differencenI between gethostbyname(<node.domain.name>) and just gethostbyname(<node>).o   Waynew -- uO ===============================================================================tM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxi: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)uO ===============================================================================t? Flounder: "I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer."t>    Otter: "Face it, Flounder.  You threw up *on* Dean Wormer."   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 16:13:34 GMT ' From: Steve Thompson <smt@twcny.rr.com>y7 Subject: Re: the tcp node name versus the vms node name>H Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0107081212070.19811-100000@vger.vgersoft.com>  " On 8 Jul 2001, Wayne Sewell wrote:  v > In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0107071648010.32720-100000@ibmbox.vgersoft.com>, Steve Thompson <smt@twcny.rr.com> writes:) > > On 7 Jul 2001, Larry Kilgallen wrote:w > >as > >> In article <jDtSEaHye7t6@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell) writes:e > >>S > >> > Since all of the vms stacks will automatically append the domain name to dnsr+ > >> > lookups as needed, I'm assuming thatn > >> >* > >> > 	$ this_node = f$getsyi("NODENAME") > >> > 	$ nslookup 'this_node' > >> >S > >> > will always work, assuming the correct domain name (the one matching the dns63 > >> > entries) has been configured into the stack.o > >>C > >> It should be possible to run an IP node without any DNS entry.e > >a? > > And then you have systems with multiple network interfaces.  >lE > What's that got to do with it?  We're talking about name to addresseQ > translation.  The multiple addresses aren't necessarily reflected in the dns oraQ > host table entry for that node.  If you do a gethostbyname, you assume that youmQ > get back an ip address that will work.  What we're talking about the differenceeK > between gethostbyname(<node.domain.name>) and just gethostbyname(<node>).  >e > Wayneg  J I have seen examples of systems with two interfaces where the SCSNODE was,I say, NODE, and the two IP addresses (assuming no aliases) were in the DNStG as "NODE-interface", there being no entry for just plain "NODE". No, it  wasn't something that I set up.t   stevec   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jul 2001 08:35:16 CDT = From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)  Subject: Re: vax 4000/90. Message-ID: <siRNi5nzSWJC@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  W In article <3b477557$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:rW > In article <W0T07.65$iB1.9749@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "mark" <mark@olc.com.au> writes:e? >>Thats not nice, were a real masterpiece in their time...lolole > F > Yup. It was and still is the second fast VAX CPU (with the VAX 6610,2 > behind the VAXstation 4000-96 and the VAX 7710).  = Well, the straight model 90 would actually be behind the 90A.b  ' 38.5 specmarks to the 90's 32.8 rating.t   -- hO ===============================================================================gM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxv: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)rO ===============================================================================e? Flounder: "I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer."->    Otter: "Face it, Flounder.  You threw up *on* Dean Wormer."   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 12:10:12 +0200t2 From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman@digital.com>0 Subject: Re: VAXstation 3100m76 Netscape trouble+ Message-ID: <3B484DA4.2CFF6AFD@digital.com>w  H Try deleting (or renaming) a file [.NETSCAPE]LOCK.; under your SYS$LOGIN
 directory.   Mike   Thomas Strathmann wrote: >  > Hi,n > ? > I recently got a nice VAXstation 3100m76 and tried which runsoD > under OpenVMS 7.2 Hobbyist. I installed Netscape from the HobbyistH > Kit CD-ROM and that worked. Now, when I tried to actually do somethingF > with Navigator it started up, prompted me with the license acceptingE > thing, output and error message about not using the cache directoryyH > for multiple users and froze. Control-C in the DECterm where I started5 > it, kills the program. Strange. Can anyone help me?i >  > Greetings, > Thomas > G > PS: The VAXstation has 32MB of RAM and about 100MB of diskspace left.> >  > -- > Thomas S. Strathmann > http://www.tstrathmann.de    --  E --------------------------------------------------------------------->E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il*-F Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------e -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----1 Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 16:05:00 GMTt; From: "Stuart R. Fuller" <stu@c49395-a.wodhvn1.mi.home.com>n' Subject: Re: will the irony never ceaset0 Message-ID: <6nt9i9.d7e.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>  3 David Mathog <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote:eL : Received an email yesterday from somebody in Compaq who must subscribe to 
 : this group:h  I :    Subj:   Out of Office AutoReply: Thanks Compaq for the new business!e  M :    I will be out of the office from 2-JUL-2001 thru 8-JUL, returning 9-JUL,e8 :    due to the general COMPAQ-wide 4-JUL week shutdown.  J : At least there was an emergency contact number supplied below the boilerH : plate, so I guess they have a few people working this week.  Still, itN : seems like a good 7 days not to have to try to employ your service contract.  K I worked last week (except 4-Jul-2001).  My customers didn't have a problem ! employing their service contract.|           Stu             ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.376 ************************