1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 10 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 380       Contents: -- Symposia question ... Re: -- Symposia question ... Re: -- Symposia question ... Re: -- Symposia question ... Re: -- Symposia question ...% A Good Point of View of Alpha -> IA64 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore  Re: Changing platforms. D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?B Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice...B Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice...! Re: DEC Notes available, someone? ! Re: DEC Notes available, someone?  emacs  Re: Experience with EMC storage  Re: Experience with EMC storage 1 Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible? 1 Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible?  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD 	 GS320 TPC  Re: Hobbyist	 Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists  Re: IA64 Rocks My World % Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance % Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance $ Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation( Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation( Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation MX V4.2 installation problemP RE: PL/I on IA64 (was ompilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG,etc. goes out the win Problem with rsh on VMS 7.2-1 & Re: Removing a Vax cluster environment& Re: Removing a Vax cluster environmentL Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMSL Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMS1 Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events... 1 Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events... 1 Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events... 1 RE: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...   Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-641 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated  Re: VMS V7.3 SPD ErrorB Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...)F Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...)F Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...) What will we see at 2004 Re: What will we see at 2004F www.motifzone.net - the site for Open Motif Developers  (monthly post)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 08:17:01 -0500# From: medleyb@ev1.net (Bert Medley) ! Subject: -- Symposia question ... : Message-ID: <Xns90DA55BF0F0B1medleybev1net@207.218.245.68>  J I've been away for a long time....what COMPAQ symposium replaces/replaced I the DECUS Symposium.  Interested in OpenVMS technical sessions (goodness   it's good to be back!).    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:36:59 -0400 ' From: Jim Becker <jbecker@ui.urban.org> % Subject: Re: -- Symposia question ... , Message-ID: <3B4B04FB.6AE7AACC@ui.urban.org>   Bert Medley wrote: > K > I've been away for a long time....what COMPAQ symposium replaces/replaced J > the DECUS Symposium.  Interested in OpenVMS technical sessions (goodness > it's good to be back!).   F The annual conference is CETS (Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium). See: http;//www.cets2001.com/  C DECUS U.S. Chapter is no more, but its successor is Encompass. See:  http://www.encompassus.org/    --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/) ' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/) . ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:58:22 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> % Subject: Re: -- Symposia question ... / Message-ID: <tkm2f3qh3c9jf0@news.supernews.com>    See http://www.CETS2001.com   0 "Bert Medley" <medleyb@ev1.net> wrote in message4 news:Xns90DA55BF0F0B1medleybev1net@207.218.245.68...K > I've been away for a long time....what COMPAQ symposium replaces/replaced J > the DECUS Symposium.  Interested in OpenVMS technical sessions (goodness > it's good to be back!).    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:16:09 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> % Subject: Re: -- Symposia question ... ' Message-ID: <3B4B1C39.38CDF060@fsi.net>    Bert Medley wrote: > K > I've been away for a long time....what COMPAQ symposium replaces/replaced J > the DECUS Symposium.  Interested in OpenVMS technical sessions (goodness > it's good to be back!).   G OpenVMS tech. sessions may be a bit limited. AFAIK, there's going to be G a "boot camp" over the weekend, mostly for UN*X and NT converts - dunno ; what else. I've not seen a SAAG or equivalent yet, however.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:00:40 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>% Subject: Re: -- Symposia question ... : Message-ID: <IEF27.13134$4M3.2837660@typhoon1.gnilink.net>  J The sessions are 50 percent assigned.  Go to www.CETS2001.com and click on the session catalog on the left   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B4B1C39.38CDF060@fsi.net...  > Bert Medley wrote: > > ; > > I've been away for a long time....what COMPAQ symposium  replaces/replaced L > > the DECUS Symposium.  Interested in OpenVMS technical sessions (goodness > > it's good to be back!).  > I > OpenVMS tech. sessions may be a bit limited. AFAIK, there's going to be I > a "boot camp" over the weekend, mostly for UN*X and NT converts - dunno = > what else. I've not seen a SAAG or equivalent yet, however.  >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. > B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. > H > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:19:53 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br . Subject: A Good Point of View of Alpha -> IA64L Message-ID: <OF0B7E23B4.BAF45042-ON03256A85.00596685@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  4 I believe one of the bests things in the question of3 portability of Alpha to IA64 is the high experience ) of the OpenVMS developers in portability. & Just remember the 32 bit to 64 bit ...  0 I think the whole market will be pleased to have* these developers, because not only OpenVMS1 and Tru64 will be ported to Itanium:  HP-UX, AIX,  and Windows 200X will be too...   8 So developers,  prepare yours resumes... you have a longC job to do .... and to make money too... helping the other companies  to port ro IA64 ! :-)    Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:39:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore, Message-ID: <3B4ADB72.F1717383@videotron.ca>   Neil Rieck wrote:  > J > Compaq looses $30M deal to IBM (in Singapore) because of Alpha's demise?  K > Mikey: It's not too late to change your mind about killing Alpha! You can H > save face by saying that this is the recommendation of the newly hired > marketing consultants.  J The Winkler/Capellas administration probably factored all those deals theyH will lose in the next few years because of this and still come ahead. 30J million bucks is a small amount of money compared to the huge wad of money Compaq is getting from Intel.   M So, you kill off Alpha, lose customers, but get lots of money in exchange and M an opportunity in invest in something will be more profitable in the future.  K And this is especially appealing of the alpha/VMS/True64 stuff is stuff you G never wanted to begin with and you want to focus on your company's core  products (wintel).  N My guess is that Compaq seen NT quickly becoming serious enough for enterpriseN computing and wants to be sure it is jumping on the bandwagon ASAP to reap theF benefits of being first on market with  systems, software, support and= consulting. That is what will differentiate Compaq from Dell.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:44:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore, Message-ID: <3B4ADC9C.296DA5F5@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:K > Obviously Compaq can't see the forest through the trees.  The money is in   > the software not the hardware.  M Where do you want to go today ? Software and solutions. And Compaq can get to M where it wants to go by killing Alpha and getting enough cash to get going on  where it wants to go.   M You can give your kid a gold bracelet. But at the first opportunity , he will M sell it and buy himself a nintendo and lots of chocolate bars because that he K what he prefers to do. So even though the bracelt is more valuable, the kid  still wants what he wants.  N Compaq wants to be a Wintel company. And they will become a wintel company. ItL is pointless to fight this. And it is pointless to put your head in the sandI and hope that things will magically change and that Compaq will magically J start to seriously market VMS and proce it competitively and seriously get3 stuff such as SAP ported. It isn't going to happen.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:36:57 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore0 Message-ID: <009FECA3.F1862FE4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3B4ADC9C.296DA5F5@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: L >> Obviously Compaq can't see the forest through the trees.  The money is in! >> the software not the hardware.  > N >Where do you want to go today ? Software and solutions. And Compaq can get toN >where it wants to go by killing Alpha and getting enough cash to get going on >where it wants to go. > N >You can give your kid a gold bracelet. But at the first opportunity , he willN >sell it and buy himself a nintendo and lots of chocolate bars because that heL >what he prefers to do. So even though the bracelt is more valuable, the kid >still wants what he wants.  > O >Compaq wants to be a Wintel company. And they will become a wintel company. It    They are a Wintel company.    M >is pointless to fight this. And it is pointless to put your head in the sand J >and hope that things will magically change and that Compaq will magicallyK >start to seriously market VMS and proce it competitively and seriously get 4 >stuff such as SAP ported. It isn't going to happen.  K I'm not hiding my head in the sand.  I (sadly) agree with you.  It's Compaq A management hiding their heads in their arses that's troubling me.   K Compaq can be the Wintel company it wants to be but the money for the boxes J they sell goes to intel and the money for the software on those boxes goesL off to the evil one resident in Redmond.  They're back in the same boat thatK is now leaking profitability for the company.  Oh granted, this sleazy deal L will get them IA-64 chips at a price that may stifle the competition's abil-L ity to produce a similarly configured and priced unit, but Compaq just isn'tM bright enough to walk down that red carpet for long.  It won't be long before K some other PeeCee box maker comes along with a lean and mean production and L the "Q" is back trying to wheel and deal some scheme to make the wall streetK moguls place their bets down on the "Q" on the wall street roulette wheels.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:36:30 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore: Message-ID: <yxD27.906$LH4.710089@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FECA3.F1862FE4@SendSpamHere.ORG... <snip> > F > I'm not hiding my head in the sand.  I (sadly) agree with you.  It's CompaqC > management hiding their heads in their arses that's troubling me.  > G > Compaq can be the Wintel company it wants to be but the money for the  boxes L > they sell goes to intel and the money for the software on those boxes goes* > off to the evil one resident in Redmond.  J This stance does not reflect a considered analysis of events leading up to the June 25 announcement.   8 Linux has been elevated to Program Office status at CPQ.  0 Most of the pro-Microsoft crowd has been purged.  + Compaq scuttled itsWinDataCenter ML770 box.    Oracle is ascendent.  = The strategy going forward is Intel-Oracle-and-Unix centered.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:34:55 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore' Message-ID: <3B4B128F.C46C5769@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > [snip]2 > Most of the pro-Microsoft crowd has been purged.   Including the BOD?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:54:21 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore' Message-ID: <3B4B171D.D085417A@fsi.net>i   JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Neil Rieck wrote:  > >6L > > Compaq looses $30M deal to IBM (in Singapore) because of Alpha's demise? > M > > Mikey: It's not too late to change your mind about killing Alpha! You caniJ > > save face by saying that this is the recommendation of the newly hired > > marketing consultants. > L > The Winkler/Capellas administration probably factored all those deals theyJ > will lose in the next few years because of this and still come ahead. 30L > million bucks is a small amount of money compared to the huge wad of money > Compaq is getting from Intel.M  ; Really??!! Maybe they could kick some o' dat *MY* way then!o   > So, you kill off Alpha,i  G ...and the remaining "small" VMS sites - those that don't fit the "highe2 end" niche model established by the Q for VMS, ...   > lose   ...Alpha and VMS...o  2 > customers, but get lots of money in exchange and' > an opportunity in invest in somethingy   ...that the Q hopes...  ( > will be more profitable in the future.M > And this is especially appealing of the alpha/VMS/True64 stuff is stuff you,I > never wanted to begin with and you want to focus on your company's core  > products (wintel).  , ...and the lucrative high-end server market.   > My guess is that Compaq seen   ...the perception of...L  3 > NT quickly becoming serious enough for enterprise,P > computing and wants to be sure it is jumping on the bandwagon ASAP to reap theH > benefits of being first on market with  systems, software, support and? > consulting. That is what will differentiate Compaq from Dell.C  F I suppose it could be to their advantage to be, down the road, someoneE that M$ may be forced to deal with, effectively turning the tables oneC them, so long as the Q can stay ahead of Dell in market/mind-share.e  A One hell of a big gamble, IMO. I've written extremely complex DCLeE proc'.s (BACKUP automation) with fewer IF's than that. They've become / addicted to gambling at the Wall Street Casino.U   Be afraid - be *VERY* afraid!c   -- e David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:19:45 -0700-' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>0> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore+ Message-ID: <3B4B1D11.680AD63C@caltech.edu>l   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:A   >a > On the surface   and at every other level  : > it seems to be a strategic blunder of the first order toL > publish Alpha's obituary three years ahead of time, but Compaq had reasons) > for committing to a high-risk strategy.m  6 Like what?  A large portfolio of Compaq "put" options?   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:38:05 GMTc= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore0 Message-ID: <009FECBD.3F316A51@SendSpamHere.ORG>  q In article <yxD27.906$LH4.710089@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:e >TK >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in messaget+ >news:009FECA3.F1862FE4@SendSpamHere.ORG...h ><snip>f >>G >> I'm not hiding my head in the sand.  I (sadly) agree with you.  It'sg >Compaq D >> management hiding their heads in their arses that's troubling me. >>H >> Compaq can be the Wintel company it wants to be but the money for the >boxesM >> they sell goes to intel and the money for the software on those boxes goesl+ >> off to the evil one resident in Redmond.e >cK >This stance does not reflect a considered analysis of events leading up tou >the June 25 announcement. >.9 >Linux has been elevated to Program Office status at CPQ.e  F 'Twould set my mind -- and others -- at ease if VMS were elevated too.    1 >Most of the pro-Microsoft crowd has been purged.-   I've yet to feel it.    , >Compaq scuttled itsWinDataCenter ML770 box.  . When will it scuttle its WinDeskTop PC666 box?     >Oracle is ascendent.s  , Ascendant, (n). increasing in prosperity.      How does that help "Q"?>    > >The strategy going forward is Intel-Oracle-and-Unix centered.  - That belies my faith that VMS has any future.p    J It does not matter what happens within the walls.  It is the perception ofJ what is happening within the walls that is going to have more far reaching effects.  + Ask Mr. Joe Average, "What does Compaq do?"o The answer, "PeeCees."  J Until such time as I see a real "Compaq Enterprise" ad and they stop send-J ing me brochures for PeeCee toys, I cannot believe otherwise and I'd doubt7 very much that others will feel all that differently.     J When is the last time I received a brochure touting an Alpha based system?K Gee, that memory is housed somewhere in long term storage.  When will I see  another?  Never.  J Letting Alpha die and all of the O/S platforms which boot upon it is clearI and decisive proof.  If they keep on this course, your newsletter will besK undergoing another name change to "Shannon Knows Nothing".  Not meant to be-O a slur against you -- simply that there will be nothing left for you report.   o   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            mJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbese   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:56:33 +0100E% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore8 Message-ID: <1d5mkt0djmngm1ebu31k9u4v69383erceh@4ax.com>  4 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:36:30 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   >. >  >s9 >Linux has been elevated to Program Office status at CPQ.  > 1 >Most of the pro-Microsoft crowd has been purged.p >u, >Compaq scuttled itsWinDataCenter ML770 box. >e >Oracle is ascendent.i > > >The strategy going forward is Intel-Oracle-and-Unix centered.  < Which is why I continue to wonder if there's some key hiddenF agreements between these companies that might just make sense of this.' If there is won't Uncle Bill get upset?n  E I continue to believe a VMS on Intel has the potential to take on thewF world if given the sweetner  of Linux/Sloaris subsystem to lure peopleF in. I'd like to think Compaq and Intel top-brass think so as well. AndB whatever else we can't forget Intel manufacture their chips on it.  F The alternative is simply that Compaq have played Intel and Oracle forC mugs in return for lots of cash to quietly get rid of the bits theydE don't want before cuddling up with Uncle Bill in a big happy reunion.1C If this is the case then we'd better start praying Intel get VMS as-7 well before it is too late. Thinking the unthinkable...3   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:22:20 GMT04 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore; Message-ID: <gRG27.1016$LH4.817548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FECBD.3F316A51@SendSpamHere.ORG...  L > It does not matter what happens within the walls.  It is the perception ofL > what is happening within the walls that is going to have more far reaching
 > effects.   Point well taken!f   >*- > Ask Mr. Joe Average, "What does Compaq do?"o > The answer, "PeeCees." >eL > Until such time as I see a real "Compaq Enterprise" ad and they stop send-L > ing me brochures for PeeCee toys, I cannot believe otherwise and I'd doubt7 > very much that others will feel all that differently.O  I Another good point. Compaq wants to be perceived as an enterprise vendor..B Look in an enterprise IT trade rag and you'll see HP, Sun, and IBMA enterprise-centric ads. The Compaq ad will be about a PC. Oops...o   >tL > When is the last time I received a brochure touting an Alpha based system?I > Gee, that memory is housed somewhere in long term storage.  When will I  seej > another?  Never. >eL > Letting Alpha die and all of the O/S platforms which boot upon it is clear > and decisive proof.   I I don't think CPQ intends to let the OSes die. Recall that Tru64 has beenAF ported (Bravo) and that the original NSK plan was for IPF. The biggestB challenge is VMS, but the developers seem really psyched about the6 opportunity to port their OS to a mainstream platform!  6 > If they keep on this course, your newsletter will beJ > undergoing another name change to "Shannon Knows Nothing".  Not meant to beF > a slur against you -- simply that there will be nothing left for you report.p  J Shannon Knows Motel Management and Earthmoving Equipment? Obviously I haveG some pretty serious concerns about this recent turn of events. I remainpH confident that Compaq can execute the technical side of the new strategyL (they've done architectural migrations before) but marketing, messaging, and) positioning are equally crucial elements.S  L The demise of Alpha demonstrates that superior technology will fail if it isH not packaged, positioned, and marketed effectively. Replacing a superiorL technology with commodity technology renders the packaging, positioning, and6 marketing task all the more difficult. We shall see...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:50:49 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e> Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore0 Message-ID: <009FECCF.CA2ABF91@SendSpamHere.ORG>  r In article <gRG27.1016$LH4.817548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >yK >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message + >news:009FECBD.3F316A51@SendSpamHere.ORG...c > M >> It does not matter what happens within the walls.  It is the perception ofsM >> what is happening within the walls that is going to have more far reachingd >> effects.  >p >Point well taken!  J Perhaps next time you're rubbing elbows within the walls you can get these  morons to understand that point.    J >Another good point. Compaq wants to be perceived as an enterprise vendor.C >Look in an enterprise IT trade rag and you'll see HP, Sun, and IBMpB >enterprise-centric ads. The Compaq ad will be about a PC. Oops...  H Exactly!  The talk the talk but they don't walk the walk.  From what hasI been exhibited to the public to date, how can the public think otherwise?     J >I don't think CPQ intends to let the OSes die. Recall that Tru64 has beenG >ported (Bravo) and that the original NSK plan was for IPF. The biggesteC >challenge is VMS, but the developers seem really psyched about the 7 >opportunity to port their OS to a mainstream platform!t  I Porting code to Alpha was way cool too.  I still cannot accept that IA-64eJ is a mainstream platform nor will I consider it to be one until such time H as it becomes one.  Saying it does not make it so and being one does notI make it a superior platform either.  There are a lot of heaveyweight fea- K tures in the IA-64 which can be a detriment to making it the lightning fastw< processor it's being touted to become in future generations.  K In a private email discussion I held with another party yesterday, the sizeaI of the process context alone -- due to the enourmous register count -- is J humongous.  In addition, it does not appear that the page protections -- 4K processor modes not withstanding -- available will permit VMS subsystems to J be maintained as they are presently.  VMS is VMS is not-quite-VMS will not bode well with me.    7 >> If they keep on this course, your newsletter will be:K >> undergoing another name change to "Shannon Knows Nothing".  Not meant to  >betG >> a slur against you -- simply that there will be nothing left for you  >report. > K >Shannon Knows Motel Management and Earthmoving Equipment? Obviously I havei   Norman!g   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:37:25 -0400i) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>   Subject: Re: Changing platforms.; Message-ID: <4Zz27.18182$gb6.1947443@news20.bellglobal.com>.  6 "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3B4A3132.73F4C27E@infopuls.com... > Keith Parris wrote:y > >g [snip]  B > Brilliant, but not to the point Compaq had in mind (do they haveB > one?) with giving away Alpha: this was basically Untel's idea to> > get rid of the bad press repeating Untel's processors beeing > slower than Alpha.> > Compaq has decided to transform itself to a services company< > within 180 days. They simply don't care much about VMS and? > Tru64. They care about supplying service to Wuntel customers.h  I If this is true then Compaq should be handsomely compensated by Intel for J doing it. If the shareholders discover otherwise, then Capellas' feet will8 be held to the flames at the next shareholder's meeting.  K If the world discovers that Compaq had not been properly paid-off, then theuH demise of the Alpha Microprocessor Division will be viewed with the sameG contempt as arson (or the deliberate destruction of any other corporateo asset)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ @ http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 05:38:23 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)TM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?u3 Message-ID: <2Y2$cBkpDc32@eisner.encompasserve.org>i   In article <rdeininger-0907012314110001@user-2ivea5o.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:yF > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden > <tom@kednos.com> wrote:a > M >> Is Compaq actually transferring title or simply licensing the compilers tob	 >> Intel?aL >> When you say that the compilers will continue to be Compaq products, does
 >> that implysM >> that compaq will continue with engineering support, or will that be turneds >> over to Intel?eI >> Has the list yet been identified, as to what is going where?  GEM, SDLn >> various front-endsiM >> where are they.  Based on the press releases, which identify an agreement,  >> Somebody must know.J >> I would be truly amazed if the agreement said "to be defined at a later? >> date", Intel doesn't do business that way.  Why the mystery?  >  > 	 > Hi Tom,e > . > What's the release schedule for PL/1 on IPF? >  > :-)P > L > Just kidding, mostly.  I wouldn't expect a timetable, but does Kednos have > any plans in the works?c  H Presumably Kednos would have to reach an agreement with Compaq regardingD GEM for IA64.  Raise your hand if you think Compaq has an answer forE that question just after their vacation week when then don't yet havec$ answers for all the other questions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:23:14 +0100h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?c8 Message-ID: <gailkts7m07ddqe6b776pur00crd4807mq@4ax.com>  0 On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:06:46 -0400, Steve Lionel  <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote:    E >As for "somebody must know" - hah!  My initial understanding is that A >the list includes Fortran, C/C++, GEM, Math Library, Ladebug andeF >performance tools.  (I may have left something out.)  SDL is not part   What about BLISS?      -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 06:51:52 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)iM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?-3 Message-ID: <ka1mmID+Ci80@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <gailkts7m07ddqe6b776pur00crd4807mq@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:2 > On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:06:46 -0400, Steve Lionel" > <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote: >  > F >>As for "somebody must know" - hah!  My initial understanding is thatB >>the list includes Fortran, C/C++, GEM, Math Library, Ladebug andG >>performance tools.  (I may have left something out.)  SDL is not parte >  > What about BLISS?t  1 Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?   > _I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,< but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want the rights.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:06:12 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?r, Message-ID: <3B4AE19F.FE75CF14@videotron.ca>  H If I read things right, Compaq is transfering engineers and will provideH "level 3" support (bug fixes". Meanwhile Compaq continues to package the compilers for VMS and Tru64.  E Does this effectively mean that the compilers on VMS are being put iny8 maintenance mode without actually declaring it as such ?  E Without engineers, how could compaq continue to develop the VMS/Tru64oM compilers which were buildt by and require the great engineeers trhat CPA hasn justr donated to Intel.j   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 07:21:26 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?t3 Message-ID: <UFm3+jyEcCOa@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3B4AE19F.FE75CF14@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:J > If I read things right, Compaq is transfering engineers and will provideJ > "level 3" support (bug fixes". Meanwhile Compaq continues to package the > compilers for VMS and Tru64. > G > Does this effectively mean that the compilers on VMS are being put inc: > maintenance mode without actually declaring it as such ? > G > Without engineers, how could compaq continue to develop the VMS/Tru64pO > compilers which were buildt by and require the great engineeers trhat CPA hast > justr donated to Intel.   H What features that cannot be classified as "bug fixes" are needed in theG existing C and Fortran compilers (the two that I have seen mentioned) ?,  F Certainly when Fortran02 is standardized, support for the new featuresE will be of interest, but just as much of interest to Intel as Compaq.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:13:09 +0100D% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>TM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window? 8 Message-ID: <gfolkt07hj6ukrkohetfknokisc21ukd7t@4ax.com>  @ On 10 Jul 2001 06:51:52 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  a >In article <gailkts7m07ddqe6b776pur00crd4807mq@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: 3 >> On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:06:46 -0400, Steve Lionel-# >> <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote:1 >> 8 >> MG >>>As for "somebody must know" - hah!  My initial understanding is thatcC >>>the list includes Fortran, C/C++, GEM, Math Library, Ladebug and H >>>performance tools.  (I may have left something out.)  SDL is not part >> n >> What about BLISS? > 2 >Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?  F Because some of the bits that are going to Intel are written in BLISS? Or so I've been told anyway...  C Could/would Compaq continue to maintain BLISS together with fitting.> updated GEM backends from Intel  - especially if all the other( compiler tech had gone. Could get messy.  ? >_I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,t= >but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would wantm >the rights.  D Would Intel be willing to build products under their name which rely@ on an unsupported compiler from Compaq? Oracle wasn't - with theE exception of the VMS version which they had confidence in for obviousv reasons. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 07:59:19 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)dM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?e3 Message-ID: <jma6L8FGLU1j@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  ` In article <gfolkt07hj6ukrkohetfknokisc21ukd7t@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:B > On 10 Jul 2001 06:51:52 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > b >>In article <gailkts7m07ddqe6b776pur00crd4807mq@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:4 >>> On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:06:46 -0400, Steve Lionel$ >>> <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote: >>>  >>> H >>>>As for "somebody must know" - hah!  My initial understanding is thatD >>>>the list includes Fortran, C/C++, GEM, Math Library, Ladebug andI >>>>performance tools.  (I may have left something out.)  SDL is not part  >>>  >>> What about BLISS?e >>3 >>Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?e > H > Because some of the bits that are going to Intel are written in BLISS?  " Good point.  Sorry about my lapse.  E > Could/would Compaq continue to maintain BLISS together with fittingr@ > updated GEM backends from Intel  - especially if all the other* > compiler tech had gone. Could get messy.  B I don't believe the part about "all other compiler tech has gone".' Only Fortran and C have been mentioned.h  @ >>_I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,> >>but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want
 >>the rights.  > F > Would Intel be willing to build products under their name which relyB > on an unsupported compiler from Compaq? Oracle wasn't - with theG > exception of the VMS version which they had confidence in for obvious3
 > reasons.  D Those obvious reasons for Oracle should be obvious reasons for IntelB as well.  Since Compaq depends on the quality of GEM, they must be# interested in the quality of Bliss.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:40:21 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>dM Subject: RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?e9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOECMCPAA.tom@kednos.com>.  L Thanks, for answering my question.  As I said, we intend to port but we have to waitnH until Compaq has figured out what is going and what is staying.  FYI the model seems toF be similar to that Digital had about 6-7 years ago when they shed many products to thirdt9 parties,  retaining marketing and first level of support.l   > -----Original Message-----B > From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam]& > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:38 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComrG > Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out thet	 > window?l >h >C > In articleC > <rdeininger-0907012314110001@user-2ivea5o.dialup.mindspring.com>,g6 > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:H > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden > > <tom@kednos.com> wrote:V > >-B > >> Is Compaq actually transferring title or simply licensing the > compilers to > >> Intel?-? > >> When you say that the compilers will continue to be Compaqh > products, does > >> that imply @ > >> that compaq will continue with engineering support, or will > that be turned > >> over to Intel?nK > >> Has the list yet been identified, as to what is going where?  GEM, SDLG > >> various front-ends0A > >> where are they.  Based on the press releases, which identifya > an agreement,w > >> Somebody must know.L > >> I would be truly amazed if the agreement said "to be defined at a laterA > >> date", Intel doesn't do business that way.  Why the mystery?, > >t > >  > > Hi Tom,  > > 0 > > What's the release schedule for PL/1 on IPF? > >a > > :-)  > >pB > > Just kidding, mostly.  I wouldn't expect a timetable, but does
 > Kednos haveo > > any plans in the works?y >cJ > Presumably Kednos would have to reach an agreement with Compaq regardingF > GEM for IA64.  Raise your hand if you think Compaq has an answer forG > that question just after their vacation week when then don't yet have & > answers for all the other questions. >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:53:52 -0400e. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?i+ Message-ID: <9if1cr$hid$1@bob.news.rcn.net>n  J But Larry, what about your other programming language -- TECO?  Aren't youC concerned about support for that?  Will there be a native IA64 TECOg
 available?   Sorry, couldn't resist.    Ken RandellS  D Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:ka1mmID+Ci80@eisner.encompasserve.org... E > In article <gailkts7m07ddqe6b776pur00crd4807mq@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:4 > > On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 17:06:46 -0400, Steve Lionel$ > > <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote: > >e > >pH > >>As for "somebody must know" - hah!  My initial understanding is thatD > >>the list includes Fortran, C/C++, GEM, Math Library, Ladebug andI > >>performance tools.  (I may have left something out.)  SDL is not partt > >y > > What about BLISS?c >a3 > Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?o >i@ > _I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,> > but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want
 > the rights.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:18:58 -0500h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>kM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?-' Message-ID: <3B4B0ED2.18751FE2@fsi.net>M   Tom Linden wrote:S > N > Thanks, for answering my question.  As I said, we intend to port but we have	 > to wait J > until Compaq has figured out what is going and what is staying.  FYI the > model seems toH > be similar to that Digital had about 6-7 years ago when they shed many > products to thirdr; > parties,  retaining marketing and first level of support.i   <rant>- RETAIN MARKETING???!!! RETAIN MARKETING???!!!   = HOW THE HELL DO YOU RETAIN SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST???!!!h </rant>i   --   David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:43:02 +0100w% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>bM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?t8 Message-ID: <sv3mktonl4tc6i4htr126artbsl1lsrpbm@4ax.com>  @ On 10 Jul 2001 07:59:19 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  4 >>>Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ? >> pI >> Because some of the bits that are going to Intel are written in BLISS?h >a# >Good point.  Sorry about my lapse.t >aF >> Could/would Compaq continue to maintain BLISS together with fittingA >> updated GEM backends from Intel  - especially if all the other + >> compiler tech had gone. Could get messy.r >iC >I don't believe the part about "all other compiler tech has gone".h( >Only Fortran and C have been mentioned.  D Plus GEM , common libraries, debug etc and the people working on all these common parts...d  B But Steve's (and other feedback) implies that they don't know whatB else is going but expect more announcements soon. I have it from aD reasonable source that other teams have not been told that they willD not move despite asking.  If the decision truly still has to be madeB then we should make sure that Compaq fully understand the problemsE before a final decision. Internally it seems from Steve's post CompaqeE engineers are doing this but I think customer input can only help. InoD other words if Compaq really do stagger from one cock-up to the next@ then let's help them avoid another one. If it's a (shock-horror)B conspiracy to pull the wool over our eyes until it is to late then let's not fall for it.  C So far absolutely nothing has appeared in print which suggests that)@ Compaq wish to hang onto any real (other than branding) compiler% technology once all is said and done.c  A >>>_I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,-? >>>but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want0 >>>the rights. >> cG >> Would Intel be willing to build products under their name which rely C >> on an unsupported compiler from Compaq? Oracle wasn't - with the<H >> exception of the VMS version which they had confidence in for obvious >> reasons.a >sE >Those obvious reasons for Oracle should be obvious reasons for InteliC >as well.  Since Compaq depends on the quality of GEM, they must bel$ >interested in the quality of Bliss.  D But wouldn't it be nicer from Intel's point of view if they just had BLISS as well?  D Maybe once all is said and done Intel might even want VMS or my wildC fantasy about an Intel/Compaq merger takes shape. Then some of thiss/ might actually make some bizarre kind of sense.h -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 11:31:22 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)lM Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?a3 Message-ID: <aJXOQf5kp+T$@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <sv3mktonl4tc6i4htr126artbsl1lsrpbm@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:B > On 10 Jul 2001 07:59:19 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > 5 >>>>Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?t >>> J >>> Because some of the bits that are going to Intel are written in BLISS? >>$ >>Good point.  Sorry about my lapse. >>G >>> Could/would Compaq continue to maintain BLISS together with fitting:B >>> updated GEM backends from Intel  - especially if all the other, >>> compiler tech had gone. Could get messy. >>D >>I don't believe the part about "all other compiler tech has gone".) >>Only Fortran and C have been mentioned.( > F > Plus GEM , common libraries, debug etc and the people working on all > these common parts...   E The last I knew, the VMS debugger was supported from VMS Development,  not from the language groups.t  B >>>>_I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,@ >>>>but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want >>>>the rights.n >>> H >>> Would Intel be willing to build products under their name which relyD >>> on an unsupported compiler from Compaq? Oracle wasn't - with theI >>> exception of the VMS version which they had confidence in for obviousr >>> reasons. >>F >>Those obvious reasons for Oracle should be obvious reasons for IntelD >>as well.  Since Compaq depends on the quality of GEM, they must be% >>interested in the quality of Bliss.  > F > But wouldn't it be nicer from Intel's point of view if they just had > BLISS as well?  D I think Intel is mainly interested in things they can sell copies of on other operating systems.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:50:04 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>wM Subject: RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window? 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEDDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>-  C Well, if you look in the latest documentation (7.3 which I received<
 yesterday)I the debugger does NOT appear under Programming Language and Tools (as one  mightdC expect, at least i would) but under Operating System Documentation.M   > -----Original Message-----B > From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam]& > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 9:31 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComlG > Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the 	 > window?e >f >o? > In article <sv3mktonl4tc6i4htr126artbsl1lsrpbm@4ax.com>, Alann$ > Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:D > > On 10 Jul 2001 07:59:19 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam > > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > >:7 > >>>>Why on earth would Intel be interested in Bliss ?  > >>>-L > >>> Because some of the bits that are going to Intel are written in BLISS? > >>& > >>Good point.  Sorry about my lapse. > >>I > >>> Could/would Compaq continue to maintain BLISS together with fittinglD > >>> updated GEM backends from Intel  - especially if all the other. > >>> compiler tech had gone. Could get messy. > >>F > >>I don't believe the part about "all other compiler tech has gone".+ > >>Only Fortran and C have been mentioned.  > >sH > > Plus GEM , common libraries, debug etc and the people working on all > > these common parts...i >rG > The last I knew, the VMS debugger was supported from VMS Development,i > not from the language groups.  >tD > >>>>_I_ am interested in Bliss, and Compaq is interested in Bliss,B > >>>>but it hardly seems like something to which Intel would want > >>>>the rights.i > >>> J > >>> Would Intel be willing to build products under their name which relyF > >>> on an unsupported compiler from Compaq? Oracle wasn't - with theK > >>> exception of the VMS version which they had confidence in for obviouso > >>> reasons. > >>H > >>Those obvious reasons for Oracle should be obvious reasons for IntelF > >>as well.  Since Compaq depends on the quality of GEM, they must be' > >>interested in the quality of Bliss.w > >dH > > But wouldn't it be nicer from Intel's point of view if they just had > > BLISS as well? >eF > I think Intel is mainly interested in things they can sell copies of > on other operating systems.0 >7   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:00:24 -0400u, From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?o8 Message-ID: <of9mktgqd4sk0kti22m5fcj12vb7t35odn@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:12:10 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robertp Deininger) wrote:n    E >Will there still be anyone around to enhance Fortran on VMS (Vax and  >Alpha) and Tru64?  C Nothing more will be done to the VAX compiler - I'll put out an ECOtE kit that has the fix for the one bug that's been reported in the lastaC two years. I don't expect there to be much else done to it.  As formF the Alpha compilers, it's not entirely clear how this will be handled,D but my expectation is that we (the Fortran team) will continue to do most of the work here.  I >Will there still be folks working on GEM for alpha, to put in the neededrK >enhancements for EV7x?  Is the optimization work for EV7 already finished?r  ( The EV7 work in GEM is pretty much done.  - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)i Fortran Engineeringo* High-Performance Technical Computing Group& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:06:00 -0400g, From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?l8 Message-ID: <er9mktcgkugsrkqknld6fuaiv8jf2qlcl0@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:23:14 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u wrote:   >What about BLISS?  F Funny you should ask.  BLISS is owned by GEM, but is currently in "bugF fix only" mode.  Many of us think that an IPF version of BLISS will beF needed.  This is one of MANY details that still need to be worked out.    - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)  Fortran Engineeringb* High-Performance Technical Computing Group& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:26:52 -0400L2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1007011226520001@user-2iveaec.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <sv3mktonl4tc6i4htr126artbsl1lsrpbm@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:l  B > On 10 Jul 2001 07:59:19 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >   E > >I don't believe the part about "all other compiler tech has gone".v* > >Only Fortran and C have been mentioned. > F > Plus GEM , common libraries, debug etc and the people working on all > these common parts...l  L I haven't seen debug mentioned before.  That seems particularly OS-specific.   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:30:17 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?>L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1007011230180001@user-2iveaec.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEDDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:q  E > Well, if you look in the latest documentation (7.3 which I receivedi > yesterday)K > the debugger does NOT appear under Programming Language and Tools (as onea > mighteE > expect, at least i would) but under Operating System Documentation.>  I Yes, and the VMS debugger is getting more mixed with System/crash/processlJ dump analysis.  And the recent heap analyzer.  And the recent upgrades forI multiprocess debugging.  And probably pieces I can't think of off the topi) of my head.  The debugger is part of VMS.r   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:10:28 GMTv! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com>rK Subject: Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice...s& Message-ID: <KNaraBA5StS7EwVe@gol.com>  H In article <3B48B3FA.B8DCDE6E@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes >All:  > G >I'm doing some planning regarding our current UPS capacity and how bign@ >the next one should be.  We currently have a 75kVA Liebert unitD >servicing our computer room.  The LCD panel on the front says it isG >running at 55%.  I'm trying to determine how much equipment we can addsH >to the computer room before we hit 80% (a ceiling that we determined on
 >our own). >dH >We hired an electrician to come in with an ammeter to measure the powerC >consumption of some of our "typical" equipment racks.  I have somejH >questions on how to interpret these numbers so I need someone from thisE >group with an electrical background to help me out.  The electrician G >measured the current by tracing the circuits back to the breaker panelwE >and putting the ammeter lead around the wire going directly into theF	 >breaker.e >e> >1) We had an SW800 full of HSJ50s and disks plugged-in with aH >three-phase connection.  The electrician measured an average current onH >phase 1 (I1) of 3.6A, an average current on phase 2 (I2) of 5.9A and anE >average current on phase 3 (I3) of 6.7A.  Considering that this is a0F >"three-phase 208V" setup, what is the power consumption of that rack?B >Is it (3.6A + 5.9A + 6.7A) * 208V?  Or is it the highest of thoseH >values, 6.7A, multiplied by 208V?  (Everything in the SW800 was plugged >into one PDU).i >rH >2) I've got an ESA1200 (two PDUs inside) which uses a NEMA L6-20P plug.A >That means two hot leads and a ground (I think).  The electricanoH >measured 3.2A on I1 and 3.4A on I2.  This is for PDU number one in thatI >rack.  The other PDU had these figures: 3.4A on I1 and 3.3A on I2.  WhatlI >is the total power consumption for that rack?  Is it (3.2A + 3.4A + 3.4Ap. >+ 3.3A) * 208V or is it (3.2A + 3.4A) * 208V? > D >3) When the electrician was trying to explain this stuff to me, theD >square root of three came up a few times in different calculations.@ >Where does the square root of three come from when dealing withC >electrical power?  Is it because the UPS is outputting three-phaselG >power?  He said that the max capacity of our UPS is (75000 VA)/(208V *eB >sqrt(3)) or right around 208 Amps at 208 Volts.  Is this correct? >TI >4) Bonus round:  If the UPS has a capacity of 75kVA AND the meter on the H >front says we're at 55% AND we don't want to go over 80%, then how muchE >juice do we have left in our current setup?  Is it 208A (number from H >previous question) multiplied by (80%-55%)?  That would be (208A * 25%)% >= 52 Amps at 208V.  Is that correct?a >nF >5) Is there a "power distribution for dummies" page on the web that I6 >could read to bring myself up to speed on this stuff? >-F >6) What is the difference between "watts" and "VA"?  Why aren't UPSes >rated in watts? >lE >I reeeally wish I would have paid more attention when I was studying B >E.E. for three semesters in college before I switched to Computer >Science.  Ha ha ha!!, >a >Thanks, >o >-Scott :^)i >l    E When you turn equipment on it momentarily takes a lot more power than E when it's running.  My almost arbitrary rule of thumb is two times asa
 much power.   D So if you have a UPS shutdown (whether scheduled or not) you can runE around and turn a lot of stuff off before the power comes back on, or6- you can get a UPS that will handle the surge.e  G However, not all equipment bursts into action at the same time - I havelG some recollection, for example, that HSZs trigger the disks one by one.m  G Your Compaq field service engineer might be able to calculate the powero% requirements of the Compaq equipment.g --  
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:10:18 +0100h From: Dave <davep@hmgcc.gov.uk>rK Subject: Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice...n( Message-ID: <3B4AF0AA.4AD1@hmgcc.gov.uk>   Scott Vieth wrote: >  > All: > H > I'm doing some planning regarding our current UPS capacity and how bigA > the next one should be.  We currently have a 75kVA Liebert unityE > servicing our computer room.  The LCD panel on the front says it is H > running at 55%.  I'm trying to determine how much equipment we can addI > to the computer room before we hit 80% (a ceiling that we determined onn > our own).b   {snip}  E Having gone through this exercise on a single-phase UPS, the thing toa@ remember is that the ratings assume a resistive load. Electronic@ equipment is vary far from a resistive load, in fact most IT kitG full-wave rectifies the incoming supply, leading to current consumptionAF in spikes only at the crest of the voltage waveform. Clamp-on ammetersH read the mean current which under these circumstances is very much lower than the peak.  E On our "12KVA" UPS the current rating of 55A at 240V turned out to be D *peak*, and the system was running into current limiting despite theF moving-iron ammeter indicating only 30A. A new unit was needed despite+ apparently only running the old one at 60%.   F You probably need to discuss the situation with whoever is responsible( for support and maintenance of your UPS.   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 05:41:36 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)m* Subject: Re: DEC Notes available, someone?3 Message-ID: <$tFQjS1DC6Wr@eisner.encompasserve.org>6   In article <rdeininger-0907012316130001@user-2ivea5o.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:tL > In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107091848070.8093-100000@firewall.freddym.org>,0 > Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org> wrote: >  >> Hi Steve, >>  I >> > >Anyway, we would like to install DEC Notes on it, but I only have ai& >> > >slightly outdated version handy. >> >  F >> > The last DEC Notes kit is 2.5A from 1993.  Is that what you have? >>   >> Yupp!G >> A real pity that DEC stopped developing DEC Notes - it's a very nicet >> product.e > M > Yes, it is nice.  Out of curiosity, what would you like to see added to it?n > I > There's a Notes-to-Web converter around somewhere, likely on one of thehH > freeware CDs.  I don't know if it's read-only, or if you can use it to > post and reply to notes.  J The one used on DECUServe, originally written by a DECUS member in Europe,H is read-only.  The DECUServe technical committee has done quite a bit ofJ thinking but not much coding toward providing read-write access.  It looksI easier and easier the farther you are from the problem.  Remember, one ofcH the bit advantages to the quality of discourse on Notes (at least in the< public arena) is strong authentication and thus attribution.   	http://eisner.decus.org/o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:02:38 GMTe( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>* Subject: Re: DEC Notes available, someone?' Message-ID: <GG958E.2Ax@spcuna.spc.edu>   ; Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> writes: L > The one used on DECUServe, originally written by a DECUS member in Europe,J > is read-only.  The DECUServe technical committee has done quite a bit ofL > thinking but not much coding toward providing read-write access.  It looksK > easier and easier the farther you are from the problem.  Remember, one of J > the bit advantages to the quality of discourse on Notes (at least in the> > public arena) is strong authentication and thus attribution.  F   Back when I was involved with DECUServe, I did the "hard part" - theF design of a system which I believe solved all the authentication, etc.E issues and allowed uses to use a wide variety of user interfaces. The?C idea was to write a program which spoke Callable Notes to the NotesiF server, presented an NNTP interface to the user (so they could use anyH newsreader they wanted) and authenticated the user against the DECUServeF UAF. All the interfaces were documented, but there were no takers when( it came time to actually write the code,  4         Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com2         terry@tmk.com             New York, NY USA   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:28:20 GMTs& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: emacs? Message-ID: <8iE27.212359$WB1.31292816@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>m  I We had a programmer ask us to install EMACS on our Alpha 2100/ VMS 7.2-1.i  E We located  [emacsv1928] on the VMS Freeware CD,  but it talked aboute! loading it on VMS V4.1 and later.tB Elsewher (in  [.etc]machines.;) it said that the Alpha CPU was notI supported, but it was hoped to have Alpha support in version 19.29   DoeseF anyone know where I can get a good copy of emacs for current VMS alpha: systems?  Free would be good, but inexpensive might be ok.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:01:43 -0700," From: Koloth <koloth@telocity.com>( Subject: Re: Experience with EMC storage, Message-ID: <3B4AA857.D79F518A@telocity.com>  L I was asking about using mirroring on the HSG80s not the HSJ50.  The HSG80's2 have mirrored cache as well as external batteries.  M Do these features of the HSG80 make it reliable enough that people would justiM use mirroring on the HSG80 versus Host Base Volume shadowing across two HSG80c sets?        Ed Wilts wrote:o   > Koloth wrote:  >cH > > 3) Does having the cached mirrored and the external batteries on theG > > Compaq's HSG80 make it reliable enough to just use controller basedc1 > > mirroring versus host based volume shadowing?  >cI > Controller-based mirroring is not good enough.  Simple as that.  I haveuG > personally been the proud recipient of an HSJ-50 controller pair thateL > disagreed on the membership of its raidsets.  Kiss 40GB of storage goodbye' > and restore the raidset from tape :-(o >aK > My storage uses HSJ-50 pairs which is then mirrored using HBVS to another:M > controller pair in another data center.  I have yet to lose data, even whenIL > one data center lost power, lost its UPS, and a source member drive failed > while copying the data back. >e > --  > Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA > mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 09:21:23 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)w( Subject: Re: Experience with EMC storage3 Message-ID: <K5z8BEzVhoWx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Q In article <3B4AA857.D79F518A@telocity.com>, Koloth <koloth@telocity.com> writes:9N > I was asking about using mirroring on the HSG80s not the HSJ50.  The HSG80's4 > have mirrored cache as well as external batteries. > O > Do these features of the HSG80 make it reliable enough that people would justiO > use mirroring on the HSG80 versus Host Base Volume shadowing across two HSG80p > sets?L >    	"Do you feel lucky?"   B 	Actually, Keith Parris put out an excellent post (here I believe)A 	that pointed out the not so obvious.  His suggestion.... DO NOT	LF 	set preferred on units!!!  Let them go where they may.  Set preferred? 	is a "trick" that tells VMS the unit/device is *only* avaiable>A 	on the path you select.  The problem there of course is failover > 	(and I forget the rest of the details but essentially, it mayA 	not go over there at all).  By having no preferred, VMS will  doy@ 	the right thing and access through the other path when the unitA 	fails over to the other member of the dual-redundant pair.  Withn2 	that information, we are probably all better off.  B 	Given a choice, I would use HBVS.  I fought that mini-debate hereD 	before.  The proponents of controller based point out the "cloning"> 	capability and have created nice HSDSA based scripts to clone% 	for backups...  more after coffee...    				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:25:49 -0700n3 From: Jeff Coffield <Jeffrey@DigitalSynergyInc.com>t: Subject: Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible?5 Message-ID: <3B4AF44D.DD531558@DigitalSynergyInc.com>b  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  } > In article <zgj27.444$rc5.26665@news.cpqcorp.net>, lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:s? > >I would be a bit surprised if you could exploit this type of > > >a hole on VMS, particularly on Alpha.  Programs are divided? > >into code and data segments, and you can't execute somethinga= > >in a data segment.  This is moderatly enforced on the VAX,u< > >though it is possible to write to the code segment at run> > >time and execute the code (I wrote some diagnostic programs? > >some years ago which did this).  However, it's very stronglyf= > >enforced on the Alpha.  The buffers themselves which wouldd= > >have to overflow are in a segment of memory which is going = > >to be marked to allow writes, but is also going to have to < > >be marked as 'no execute'.  Code is in segments which are@ > >going to be marked execute and no write.  So even if a buffer? > >was at the end of it's segment (or PSECT) and a code segmenth? > >came right after it in memory, the memory protection schemes'A > >in VMS would probably stop you from being able to write to thei> > >code segment, and I think they would probably stop you from> > >telling the program to execute a segment of memory that hadA > >been previously marked as data because it's going to be markedn > >as no execute.d > >i< > >I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is going to take a@ > >lot more effort than any of the buffer overflow exploits I've% > >seen reported for other platforms.  > >q? > >It would be a lot easier on a VAX if the program was written:@ > >with improperly marked PSECTS that mixed code and data in theB > >same memory segment.  Fortunately, I don't think there are many > >of those around anymore.m >e > File TEST.MAR is:i >  >         .EXTRN  Xh" >         .PSECT  CODE,NOWRT,EXE,5 >         .ENTRY  GO,0 >         MOVL    X,R0 >         JSB     (R0)
 >         RETr >         .END    GO >  > File DATA.MAR is:  >u >         $PDSCDEF >I( >         .PSECT  $LINKAGE,NOWRT,NOEXE,5  > X::     .ADDRESS        X_PDSC >         .ALIGN  QUAD >B2 > X_PDSC: .LONG   <PDSC$K_KIND_NULL@PDSC$V_KIND>!-4 >                 <PDSC$M_NATIVE!PDSC$M_NO_JACKET>,0 >         .ADDRESS        X_C,0o >a$ > ;                         vvvvv---# >         .PSECT  $DATA,WRT,NOEXE,5 6 > X_C:    .LONG   ^x47E03400      ; BIS     R31, 1, R0/ >         .LONG   ^x6BFA8001      ; RET     R26- >         .END >u >1 > Compile, link and run. >r > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMb >tK >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fieryuK >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes1  [ If I am understanding the code, the section $DATA (which says NOEXE) gets executed. HoweverKW TEST.MAR is VAX Macro while DATA.MAR has Alpha instructions. I run this on an Alpha ande1 get $STATUS to be 1. What is this supposed to do?    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:05:25 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)s: Subject: Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible?0 Message-ID: <009FECB8.AF37FBEA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <3B4AF44D.DD531558@DigitalSynergyInc.com>, Jeff Coffield <Jeffrey@DigitalSynergyInc.com> writes: ' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:e > ~ >> In article <zgj27.444$rc5.26665@news.cpqcorp.net>, lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:@ >> >I would be a bit surprised if you could exploit this type of? >> >a hole on VMS, particularly on Alpha.  Programs are divided @ >> >into code and data segments, and you can't execute something> >> >in a data segment.  This is moderatly enforced on the VAX,= >> >though it is possible to write to the code segment at runw? >> >time and execute the code (I wrote some diagnostic programsV@ >> >some years ago which did this).  However, it's very strongly> >> >enforced on the Alpha.  The buffers themselves which would> >> >have to overflow are in a segment of memory which is going> >> >to be marked to allow writes, but is also going to have to= >> >be marked as 'no execute'.  Code is in segments which are-A >> >going to be marked execute and no write.  So even if a bufferm@ >> >was at the end of it's segment (or PSECT) and a code segment@ >> >came right after it in memory, the memory protection schemesB >> >in VMS would probably stop you from being able to write to the? >> >code segment, and I think they would probably stop you fromn? >> >telling the program to execute a segment of memory that hadnB >> >been previously marked as data because it's going to be marked >> >as no execute. >> >= >> >I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is going to take aeA >> >lot more effort than any of the buffer overflow exploits I'vee& >> >seen reported for other platforms. >> >@ >> >It would be a lot easier on a VAX if the program was writtenA >> >with improperly marked PSECTS that mixed code and data in themC >> >same memory segment.  Fortunately, I don't think there are manys >> >of those around anymore. >> >> File TEST.MAR is: >> >>         .EXTRN  X# >>         .PSECT  CODE,NOWRT,EXE,5r >>         .ENTRY  GO,0t >>         MOVL    X,R0e >>         JSB     (R0)t >>         RET >>         .END    GOi >> >> File DATA.MAR is: >> >>         $PDSCDEFo >>) >>         .PSECT  $LINKAGE,NOWRT,NOEXE,5a! >> X::     .ADDRESS        X_PDSCs >>         .ALIGN  QUADn >>3 >> X_PDSC: .LONG   <PDSC$K_KIND_NULL@PDSC$V_KIND>!-25 >>                 <PDSC$M_NATIVE!PDSC$M_NO_JACKET>,0.  >>         .ADDRESS        X_C,0 >>% >> ;                         vvvvv---r$ >>         .PSECT  $DATA,WRT,NOEXE,57 >> X_C:    .LONG   ^x47E03400      ; BIS     R31, 1, R0 0 >>         .LONG   ^x6BFA8001      ; RET     R26 >>         .ENDu >> >> >> Compile, link and run.e >> >> --1R >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>L >>   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fieryL >>   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes > \ >If I am understanding the code, the section $DATA (which says NOEXE) gets executed. HoweverX >TEST.MAR is VAX Macro while DATA.MAR has Alpha instructions. I run this on an Alpha and2 >get $STATUS to be 1. What is this supposed to do? >h  G Just that!  Control is transferred to a simple routine that stores 1 inrH R0 and returns to its invocator.  The code is, however, in a NOEXE psect! which Bart says will not execute.l   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesw   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:00:26 -0400u5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i Subject: Re: FreeVMS2 Message-ID: <5xG27.496$rc5.39090@news.cpqcorp.net>  3 Monty!  You wanna come back & help port to Itanium?i      I Monty Brandenberg wrote in message <3B4A97F3.9DA7BDE9@ne.mediaone.net>...e >"antonio.carlini" wrote:h >> >>7 >> Reverse engineering is (I think) permitted in Europe 3 >> under some circumstances. I thought that was thea >> case in the US too? >> >> Just mildly curious.e >e6 >Legal reverse engineering is how Compaq was started.. >  >--aI >Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB,i Inc.G >mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Boxr 426188B >mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA
 02142-0021
 >617.864.6907    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:17:52 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra Subject: Re: FreeVMSL Message-ID: <OF5127F2F4.BDD89109-ON03256A85.005EDDD5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ? It is what I said .... there are a lot of good oportunities for 
 developers...i  G And if the developers are intelligent enought to improve their products , during the portability, should be good ! ! !  I And the developers market - specially OpenVMS developers - can contribute : in the faster portability from 32 to 64 (HP-UX, AIX, WINT)   RegardsI   FC        F "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> em 10/07/2001 14:00:26  A Favor responder a "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh       Assunto: Re: FreeVMS    3 Monty!  You wanna come back & help port to Itanium?t      I Monty Brandenberg wrote in message <3B4A97F3.9DA7BDE9@ne.mediaone.net>...o >"antonio.carlini" wrote:n >> >>7 >> Reverse engineering is (I think) permitted in Europe 3 >> under some circumstances. I thought that was thei >> case in the US too? >> >> Just mildly curious.t >t6 >Legal reverse engineering is how Compaq was started.. >o >--lI >Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB,  Inc.G >mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Boxi 426188B >mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA
 02142-0021
 >617.864.6907s   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 07:53:55 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: FUD3 Message-ID: <ymfmyccufpof@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <9icuul$17e1$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  K > The last 68K version of SunOS was quite sometime before the first releasee
 > of Solaris e  B I've seen Sun statements to the effect that all Sun OS were reallyF Solaris (an internal code name at the time?).  For most Sun users, the? name change came at the same time as the move from BSD to SVID.a  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationp= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:27:18 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: FUD) Message-ID: <3B4B02B6.203A792@uk.sun.com>o   Jordan Henderson wrote:l > . > In article <9icsmn$16sm$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,/ > Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: G > >In article <kEl27.1475$HV1.153718@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,,4 > > "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes: > >|>d > >|>tR > >|> Sun forced a rapid switch to SPARC by stopping production of 68K systems and3 > >|> you couldn't run Solaris on just any 68K box.f > >|>n > >iD > >Just one small nit.  You could never run Solaris on a 68K system. > >r > G > It may depends on who you ask.  Sun did rebadge SunOS 4 as Solaris 1.m > B > Now, I can't recall, did 68K systems run SunOS 4, or was that 3? >   G SunOS 4.X.X ran on 68K's and SPARC's. Sunos 3 only ran on 68K's though tA there was a alpha development port of Sunos 3 to the first SPARC f. machines that was never released to customers.  4 SunOS 4.x.x was subsequently rebranded as Solaris 1.  D Solaris 2.x which everyone equates to Solaris was not ported to 68K.   Regards1 Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT Architectg   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:01:26 GMT9 From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com  Subject: Re: FUD8 Message-ID: <of5mkt028aeuf0gijer5dorc6mksbhaq35@4ax.com>  4 On Fri, 06 Jul 2001 02:47:13 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  K >You have a point about the economic futility. Assume CPQ ships 100K Alphas M >per year. Assume (being generous) an average config has 5 CPUS. If the Alpha L >effort cost CPQ $250M per year, each CPU they shipped would have a $500 R&D >overhead surtax. Ouch.s  0 If one added Capella's salary (29,000,000 USD), ' the surtax might go up an addtl $58 ,,,   6 but I suppose Capellas does other things unrelated to 3 Alpha R&D/production, such that he can't be really i1 be considered an Alpha-related expense  alone ...    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2001 16:21:44 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e Subject: Re: FUD, Message-ID: <9ifa2o$2bi5$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <ymfmyccufpof@eisner.encompasserve.org>,D0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:c |> In article <9icuul$17e1$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  |>  N |> > The last 68K version of SunOS was quite sometime before the first release |> > of Solaris  |> -E |> I've seen Sun statements to the effect that all Sun OS were reallycI |> Solaris (an internal code name at the time?).  For most Sun users, thetB |> name change came at the same time as the move from BSD to SVID.  D Unless you have been shown the documents that make this reference, IH would consider this revisionist history.  I have worked with SunOS sinceE before the Sparc was even created and never was the term Solaris usedbC in any contact with Sun.  I believe the new name was created at theeF same time they split the company into a separate hardware and softwareE operation.  It also helped with the fact that the licensing agreement-C that went with the OS was changed at that time.  Under SunOS it washG always held that owning hardware granted permission to use the OS, this-H was not the case under Solaris.  All of the changes that occured at thatL time were what drove us away from Sun.  That and the really poor performanceE of the early versions of Solaris as compared to the great performanceu  we had been used to under SunOS.   bill   -- HJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:29:23 -0600 (MDT)t" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> Subject: GS320 TPCG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0107100720380.20969-100000@athena.csdco.com>e  6 http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp? resulttype=noncluster&version=5    Availability on 7/30  C http://www.theinquirer.net/09070116.htm is an article by Mike Mageeo  G "With figures like these, it is no surprise to us that there is a greatv; future for the Alpha platform at Compaq, we would suggest."    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:49:42 -0500c1 From: Robert Alan Byer <byer@mail.ourservers.net>a Subject: Re: Hobbyist 3 Message-ID: <3B4ADDC6.5F83B4B8@mail.ourservers.net>   - Let's see, this is what I have running now...R   	VAXStation-4000/60, OpenVMS  	AlphaStation-200 4/233, OpenVMS  	AlphaStation-250 4/266, OpenVMS 	AlphaStation 500/333, OpenVMS 	AlphaPC 164 500MHz, OpenVMS 	AlphaPC 164SX 533MHz, Tru64   I have offline...t   	AlphaStation-250 4/2668$ 	Two AlphaPC 164's with 500MHz CPU's 	MicroVAX-3400 	VAXServer-3300a 	Several VAXStation-3100's  ? All the working machines are clustered together on a Cisco 2924s> Enterprise switch hooked into my in-home 100 meg network.  I'm5 connnected to the internet via a 256K SDSL circuit :}k  * More info on my machines can be found at..   	http://www.ourservers.net/docs   H I'm in the process of upgrading machines and re-organizing my network :}* (why do I have all this, because I can :}) p -- r  @  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Robert Alan Byer | byer@mail.ourservers.net | ICQ #65926579 |@  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Send an E-mail request to obtain a copy of my PGP key.      |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+@  | "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by |@  |  cans of cola the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire   |@  |  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine    |@  |  alone I set my mind in motion."                            |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2001 23:38:39 -0700-1 From: jason_odonnell@erinet.com (Jason O'Donnell)0 Subject: Hobbyists= Message-ID: <5c8ffd05.0107092238.4ae55a50@posting.google.com>b   All,  C It seems that there are several OpenVMS Hobbyists in this group.  II@ was just curious what systems people have in their homes runningC OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  As soon as I get things organized, I willL' have a 2100A RM and and a 2000 at home.s   JMOD   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:33:59 +0200V< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> Subject: Re: Hobbyists4 Message-ID: <9iei3c$i9lpb$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Jason O'Donnell wrote...B > It seems that there are several OpenVMS Hobbyists in this group.D > I was just curious what systems people have in their homes running > OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  K Sure would be nice, but no. I have a VAXstation 4000-60 and a DEC 3000-300.e   cu,    Martin --  J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deaJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/? And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:26:26 -0400y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: HobbyistsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1007010926260001@user-2iveaec.dialup.mindspring.com>  = In article <5c8ffd05.0107092238.4ae55a50@posting.google.com>, 2 jason_odonnell@erinet.com (Jason O'Donnell) wrote:   > All, > E > It seems that there are several OpenVMS Hobbyists in this group.  I,B > was just curious what systems people have in their homes runningE > OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  As soon as I get things organized, I will ) > have a 2100A RM and and a 2000 at home.      Several DEC 3000 systems.m   Soon a Vaxstation 4000-90i   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:10:41 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Hobbyists' Message-ID: <3B4B1AF1.B8663BFE@fsi.net>O   Jason O'Donnell wrote: >  > All, > E > It seems that there are several OpenVMS Hobbyists in this group.  I B > was just curious what systems people have in their homes runningE > OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  As soon as I get things organized, I willS) > have a 2100A RM and and a 2000 at home.    GS Series?? Yikes!  F Currently, I have an AS200-4/233, a MicroVAX 3100-20, a "pizza box", aF BA350 shelf and a couple handfuls of RZ28 and RZ26 disks. None of themD are back on-line since we moved at the end of April - I got laid offH back then and wasn't certain we could keep the house. Things are lookingG up now, so I'll try to bring them up again soon. Just got a request fort& VMS on TK50, also - further incentive.  A I also have four VAXstation 400/VLCs that I'll probaly put up forlG auction later this season or maybe in the fall. Our bank changed hands,I- so I gotta get re-verified with PayPal first.w   -- y David J. Dachterat dba DJE SystemsT http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged..   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:47:46 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B4B0782.408C1245@uk.sun.com>   Brig Campbell wrote: > I > "andrew harrison" <ah13473_nospam@remove_this.sun.com> wrote in messagea/ > news:3B45A85E.F049F0E9@remove_this.sun.com... 8 > > But it is because Compaq have had to resort to using4 > > the old Sequent OPS in a box tuning trick to try1 > > to avoid remote memory access where possible.  > >a1 > > The fact that very few customers would either 3 > > have the skills or want to pay the cost of thise
 > > approach.I > K > I'm unaware of any Sequent customer ever testing, much less implementing,t) > OPS-in-a-box.  It was a benchmark hack.. >   = So it was, as is Compaq use of OPS in a box to improve their e TPC-C numbers. h   Regardsg Andrew Harrisond Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:36:03 +0100h/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>r. Subject: Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance7 Message-ID: <009FECBC.F7085688.24@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>g  / "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writess  M > Businesses are probably going to find that they can get by without going togI > win/office 2k and will likely standardize on what they have today.  TheaJ > current economy has caused a lot of companies to delay upgrades and they3 > will probably find that they can delay for years.. > K > I have friends who are dealing with the aftermath of the dotbomb and theyoL > are telling stories of server farms of a 100 wintel systems that are beingK > replaced by a pair of Sun or linux systems - it turns out that the wintelmJ > systems were single function systems without storage scalability runningL > mostly idle.  The costs per month are dropping from $100K per month to $5KM > for these server farms.  The guys cleaning up this mess are not going to be K > spending a lot of money on expensive new systems when they still have oldV > stuff to dispose of. >    Amen!   J And bringing this thread back onto topic: what an opportunity for VMS thisN could have been, perhaps still could be, if Compaq would only market it right!E (Especially a reasonably priced two-node DS10 VMScluster-in-a-box forCH supporting 24x7x275 e-commerce systems). And then the successful dotcomsC move up from DS10 to ES40 to GS-whatever as their transaction rate  K increases, with zero outage time to their customers, while competitirs with^1 lesser systems think "why can't we do that?" ....O  M But no. They don't offer anything particularly competitive at entry-level. IndI fact, they don't really market it at all, except to the existing customer ! base, and not well even to them.     IT'S THE MARKETING, STUPID!s  E Has been for a decade and still is. If VMS had been properly marketedoK for a few years, then news of the IA64 port could have been received quite cI enthusiastically. As it is, people interpret it almost wholly negatively, M and that negative perception of the future can easily become self-fulfilling.    	Yours,S
 		Nigel Arnoti- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   o  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."a   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:02:47 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva). Subject: Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance% Message-ID: <9if1u7$bt8@web.nmti.com>   , In article <3B497431.DAF93DDA@peoplepc.com>,6 Jack Patteeuw  <jjpatteeuw@nospam.peoplepc.com> wrote:O > One of Alpha/OSF1 least desirable feature was that it only had a 64 bit mode.-, > No sloppy K&R code could easily be ported.  L Actually, it did have one. Using it was discouraged, and it still had 64-bit@ longs, but a lot of all-the-world's-a-sun/vax code ran under it:     -taso H       Directs the linker to load the executable file in the lower 31-bitM       addressable virtual address range. The -T and -D options to the ld com- K       mand can also be used, respectively, to ensure that the text and datam4       segments addresses are loaded into low memory.  M       The -taso option, however, in addition to setting default addresses forsM       text and data segments, also causes shared libraries linked outside the K       31-bit address space to be appropriately relocated by the loader.  If M       you specify -taso and also specify text and data segment addresses with J       -T and -D, those addresses override the -taso default addresses. TheK       -taso option can be helpful when porting programs that assume addresssM       values can be stored in 32-bit variables (that is, programs that assumeE:       that pointers are the same length as int variables).  K The default mode is not only 64-bit, but it maps out the lowest gigabyte ofr) memory to deliberately catch vaxist code.u  C Most of the code I used, which had already been ported to Xenix-286s< and SunOS from the PDP-11, required no changes on the Alpha.   -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.)E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."cL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:22:48 +0200n' From: "Thys de Wet" <thys@it.sun.ac.za> - Subject: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation90 Message-ID: <9ies2r$10o7$1@news.adamastor.ac.za>   Hi all,   L Is there a VMS command that will display the value of a key pressed?  I needC to sort out some emulation stuff for use with the DEC Multinationals Character set.  F If I press the Insert key i would like to see the following displayed:	 <ESC>[34xd or whatever the string is.   Thanx    T de Wet University of Stellenbosch Stellenbosch, South Africa   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:48:07 +0100 ' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>41 Subject: Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation-2 Message-ID: <100720011348072288%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  < In article <9ies2r$10o7$1@news.adamastor.ac.za>, Thys de Wet <thys@it.sun.ac.za> wrote:  	 > Hi all,g > N > Is there a VMS command that will display the value of a key pressed?  I needE > to sort out some emulation stuff for use with the DEC Multinationale > Character set. > H > If I press the Insert key i would like to see the following displayed: > <ESC>[34xl > or whatever the string is.  D I'd use teco. Insert the keystroke then examine the string produced. f'rinstancee @i/<your keystroke(s)>/$$ = note delimited insert @i/.../  for escape sequence characters-A then 0a===$$ for each character in hex, or ==  for octal or = fort decimal.  2 But then I'd use teco to get my lawnmower started.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:13:44 -0500m1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 1 Subject: Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulationd' Message-ID: <3B4B1BA8.1F13A741@fsi.net>    Thys de Wet wrote: > 	 > Hi all,c > N > Is there a VMS command that will display the value of a key pressed?  I needE > to sort out some emulation stuff for use with the DEC Multinational7 > Character set. > H > If I press the Insert key i would like to see the following displayed: > <ESC>[34x  > or whatever the string is.  B Terminal servers are good for that - remote consoles and hardwired ports.  C ...however, I believe you can find this info. somewhere deep withinm" http://www.wrq.com/ and elsewhere.   -- 6 David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged..   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2001 02:04 CDTt' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e% Subject: MX V4.2 installation problem-- Message-ID: <10JUL200102041487@gerg.tamu.edu>2  K This used to install fine (it is, in fact, the same exact distribution that0K I had installed about a year ago before some recent upgrades - there do notrH appear to have been any updates to the package since then, or since 1995% even, so I didn't download it again).h  I After some upgrading, most notably from VMS Alpha V6.1 to V7.2-1 but withCI other stuff including Multinet V4.1B-X to V4.3A-X (which shouldn't matterw@ since MX uses NETLIB) I have discovered that MX doesn't install.  G The reson for the attempted reinstallation is that the old installation 7 doesn't work due to a shareable image version mismatch.   # The installation attempt ends with:t  6 %VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product save set E ...' %MX-I-LINKING, Linking image MX_SMTP... , %LINK-W-MULCLUOPT, cluster  multiply definedI         in options file GERGX$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSUPD.MX042]MX_SMTP.ALPHA_OPT;22= %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of MX V4.2 has failed.n  H It's a pity that it doesn't give a hint as to what it's actually talkingF about - like *what* cluster, even or what line of MX_SMTP.ALPHA_OPT isD triggering this. I was about to go for the trial and error method ofE unpacking saveset E, deleting a line from this file, repacking E, and I attempting to reinstall to see if I could determine which line is failing(5 but that seemed excessively tedious - thus this post.s  + MX_SMTP.ALPHA_OPT;2 contains the following:   * VMI$KWD:SMTP.ALPHA_OLB/INCLUDE=MX_SMTP/LIB VMI$KWD:COMMON.ALPHA_OLB/LIB MX_SHR:.EXE/SHARE, NETLIB_SHRXFR:/SHARE VMI$KWD:MX_FLQ_SHR.EXE/SHARE  D Which doesn't exactly leap out and point to a culprit for me. I haveI no idea which of the above is defining a cluster that is already defined.w  F (I did try to build from source, which also fails gruesomely before itE even gets to the part where it turns out that you need BLISS, which IeL havn't installed. That build fails due to being unable to find a DESCRIP.MMS* file that I beleive is, in fact, present.)  F Just in case it was the netlib line in the ALPHA_OPT file that was theG problem, I installed the most recent NETLIB (V2.3B) rather than the one E that comes with the MX042 package. Didn't help (which didn't actuallyl0 surprise me, but it was easy to do so I did it).  G I compared the contents of SMTP.ALPHA_OLB and COMMON.ALPHA_OLB and theym% have no modules or symbols in common.v  I Has anyone actually installed MX042 on this (or any other recent) versionv of VMS?   ? Any hints as to where the problem lies and what to do about it?l  A (I'm not exactly a VMS newbie, but I don't recall ever having any0G significant difficulties getting things to link before - especially not3K from a VMSINSTALable package, and certaily not with one that used to work.)m   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:32:17 -0700s! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>tY Subject: RE: PL/I on IA64 (was ompilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG,etc. goes out the wine9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIECLCPAA.tom@kednos.com>f  K Well, as you have perceived this is of high interest for us, because we use- the-H GEM back-end on VMS.  I have talked to Compaq, but have essentially beenH told to wait about thirty days.  We will provide a roadmap as soon as we have the clarification frome& Compaq.  The issue is not IF but WHEN.   Tom    > -----Original Message-----; > From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]V% > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 8:14 PMp > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.CompG > Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the8	 > window?a >1 >sF > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden > <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  >hA > > Is Compaq actually transferring title or simply licensing thek > compilers to
 > > Intel?> > > When you say that the compilers will continue to be Compaq > products, does > > that imply? > > that compaq will continue with engineering support, or wille > that be turned > > over to Intel?J > > Has the list yet been identified, as to what is going where?  GEM, SDL > > various front-endsC > > where are they.  Based on the press releases, which identify an  > agreement, > > Somebody must know.9K > > I would be truly amazed if the agreement said "to be defined at a later @ > > date", Intel doesn't do business that way.  Why the mystery? >- >-	 > Hi Tom,- >-. > What's the release schedule for PL/1 on IPF? >e > :-)n > L > Just kidding, mostly.  I wouldn't expect a timetable, but does Kednos have > any plans in the works?  >k > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com| >|   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:27:00 GMT-' From: mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark)-& Subject: Problem with rsh on VMS 7.2-1. Message-ID: <3b4abb23.1480308@news.force9.net>   Hi,_  > We need to start some processes on a remote UNIX host and then? continue processing (from a C program).  The C program contains  a line like:  5    system("rsh/username="..."/password="..." hostname  "/path/to/command");  D However the system call waits until the command and all its childrenC exit even though the main command exits quickly after starting some0? background processes.  The solution to this with UNIX is to useuB the '-n' option for rsh, but this does not seem to be available on VMS.   Can anyone suggest a solution?   TIAs
 Mark Williams9   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 04:29:19 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews)/ Subject: Re: Removing a Vax cluster environmento< Message-ID: <a720d610.0107100329.a59dc73@posting.google.com>  t "Ambrose, Joseph" <jambrose@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<6Ns27.104130$2W4.17578389@news02.optonline.net>...M > In a cost cutting measure, my boss has asked me to dissolve the VAX ClusternJ > from our dual VAX 4000-500a cluster to enable me to split the system and( > physically shut down one of the CPU's. > M > I told him we could shutdown and halt one of the processors and the cluster-5 > would continue, he wants to physically shut it off.0 > J > This is not possible now because some of the drives are also in the same7 > enclosure. Therefore dropping the system on its head.- > ? > I need to break the cluster to do what he has asked. How to ?5  F Cost cutting, presumably licencing or software support? With a pair ofF systems, one should be on 'dependent support' but problems experiencedE have to be reproduced on your main system, is this an alternative forr you?  F Still, You could purchase a BA400X to contain the disks, same size and5 shape as a 4500 but just has disk/tape bays for DSSI.   @ Why is it necessary to pull the box you're no longer using? YourE operating system license (licence?) does allow you to run software on-F an alternative system should the 'main' system be unavailable. DisableF the clustering, remove the 'alternate' root, then just be careful that@ only one or the other system boots, put a duff entry in the boot$ device field so it has to be manual.  D I don't know if you physically removed the CPU and memory if the boxC would still power up, as I understand it, those switched mode PSU'sgE need a load to start properly. However FS may not then touch you with 
 a barge pole.   E Anyhow, check the voting scheme and ensure rest of system(s) run lessbF any votes lost, delete node specific licences from the LMF database to> be legal, possibly re-evaluate the whole cluster situation and determine if its really needed.t  A Finally I'm quite sure that if your boss wishes to avoid disposal C costs, a kind hobbyist person in your vicinity will assist with the,F final removal of your system! Just remember to power everything off to avoid blowing those DSSI fuses.   ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:03:58 -0500b1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>l/ Subject: Re: Removing a Vax cluster environment ' Message-ID: <3B4B195E.58A79582@fsi.net>*   "Ambrose, Joseph" wrote: > M > In a cost cutting measure, my boss has asked me to dissolve the VAX ClusteroJ > from our dual VAX 4000-500a cluster to enable me to split the system and( > physically shut down one of the CPU's. > M > I told him we could shutdown and halt one of the processors and the cluster:5 > would continue, he wants to physically shut it off.u > J > This is not possible now because some of the drives are also in the same7 > enclosure. Therefore dropping the system on its head.1 > ? > I need to break the cluster to do what he has asked. How to ?0 > 	 > VMS 6.2h  E In a two node cluster, you should be running with quorum disk so that D either node can run without the other being booted. If this is true,G then just shut the one vax down to the console and leave it there untiloH you can get some down time. Then, shutdown the cluster, recable the diskF power so it does not depend on the other VAX, set the surviving node'sF VAXCLUSTER parameter to zero(0) (use conversational boot), and off you go.o  B Now - if you're talking DSSI disks in the other VAX 4000, that may> present further challenges. Best to contact your local serviceE organization (assuming you are under contract) for advice/assistance.0  E I tried to look up your locale (area 212?) on your "Award Winning Web ) Site", but it's currently extremely slow.0  E Ah - ok, you're in New York City. Best to contact someone local then.a Too far for me.e   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:07:07 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>sU Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMSi$ Message-ID: <3b4b3682$1@news.si.com>  " >> *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*  H Other mentions of the VMS milking system and the VAX vacuum cleaner haveK been posted here, but last week I was in Korea, staying at the Sejong Hotel K in Seoul.  The room had a hair dryer in the bathroom.  Printed on the dryero# was "Unix Professional Hair Dryer"., --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comr= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:52:28 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-).U Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMS 0 Message-ID: <009FECD0.0596B395@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <3b4b3682$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:# >>> *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*e >eI >Other mentions of the VMS milking system and the VAX vacuum cleaner havewL >been posted here, but last week I was in Korea, staying at the Sejong HotelL >in Seoul.  The room had a hair dryer in the bathroom.  Printed on the dryer$ >was "Unix Professional Hair Dryer".  I I do hope you took a picture.  It would be well worth it for a few grins.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM6            lJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:09:26 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l: Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events..., Message-ID: <3B4AD454.B1A678AF@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:uL > I don't think that's a fair statement.  Banks and stock exchanges also use4 > a lot of VMS.  I don't know the relative numbers.   L Perhaps in the USA, but in other counrties such as Canada,  banks do not useM VMS and stock exchanges do not use VMS. The lotteries here are on Tandem, nots VMS and the list goes on.r  M And remember that a big chunk of VMS hosts in financial institutiosn is aboutoM go be lost because SWIFT will shortly be pulling the plug on ST400. Compaq ishK perfectly happy with this because they are confident that they can keep theID customers who will flock to SWIFT's NT  solution on Compaq hardware.  L Just because a couple fo banks such as credit Lyonnais may at one point haveL had VMS does not mean that they still have it either. They may have migratedE to a unix based solution wth a new application. Consider how many oldr8 applications/systems were dumped in preparation for Y2K.    F While it is good for the vendor to paint a rosy picture to try to giveK customer more confidence and boost sales, I don't even think that Compaq is & tryng to paint a rosy picture anymore.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:40:32 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a: Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...8 Message-ID: <mmilktops1t185qjcfjc9clf0bbmm572pu@4ax.com>  C On 9 Jul 2001 16:58:49 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e wrote:    ? >	I'm not sure how exactly it will work but since compilers are > >	going over to Intel and as Steve Lionel pointed out first toA >	go is Visual Fortran (and no they don't all "go" there, but youd  A Rob, could you please post the part of the Compaq/Intel agreementyF which documents that "no they don't all 'go' there". Even Steve Lionel> has said he doesn't know where this stops and hasn't  seen the- agreement himself. If you have please say so.n  F If you'd stopped blurting out how everything was wonderful for a whileF we might have just convinced enough people of Compaq's true intentionsD for the Alpha chip and saved it. If you'd stop fantasizing about theC future we might yet still save VMS if enough people ask hard enoughTC questions RIGHT NOW. What do you really think will be gained by you @ attempting to convince everyone that all is rosy so don't worry?  B But given your past track record the day after Compaq mothball VMSC you'll be telling us how really superior Windows has been all alongeA and why the transfer of VMS engineering to Microsoft was the beste possible outcome.s  A >	get the idea) with continued support for Tru64 and VMS... these[B >	compilers become the de facto compilers, free to Linux and maybeA >	mostly free (war alert:  no not free but CSA and other programstC >	and hobbyists open up holes for most serious Tru64/VMS developersaB >	and yes, you may have to spend a few hundred a year) to others.. >oA >	So maybe compilers and coding to Linux API makes cross platform H >	very real possiblity.  Seems IBM is doing quite a bit with Linux, etc.@ >	so Itanium + Linux API + Compaq/Intel compilers are the key toF >	future application availability for many back-ends.  Long range goalC >	would be a "simple" compile with bugs common across all platformsc9 >	and squashed accordingly.  Maybe that is 3-5 years out?d >  >				Rob   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:46:05 -0400I2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>: Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...* Message-ID: <3B4AF90D.7E8E4AC3@oracle.com>   JF Mezei wrote:w >  > Robert Deininger wrote:eN > > I don't think that's a fair statement.  Banks and stock exchanges also use5 > > a lot of VMS.  I don't know the relative numbers.  > N > Perhaps in the USA, but in other counrties such as Canada,  banks do not useO > VMS and stock exchanges do not use VMS. The lotteries here are on Tandem, not  > VMS and the list goes on.s  1 	perhaps world-wide.  there are a number of high- 9 profile exchanges (stocks and comodities) all around the i8 globe running VMS to do the heavy lifting.  and a number; of high-profile banks as well.  banks use VMS and exchanges2 use VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:41:54 -0400o+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>r: Subject: RE: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...R Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4AD7EE9@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,d  K As Norm pointed out, many of the worlds top exchanges and Banks use OpenVMSo, and new OpenVMS wins in this space continue.  
 Reference:I http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001011801.html (Sydney Exchangee new app)L http://www.eurexchange.com/index2.html?eh&4&1&entrancehall/news_pressrelease8 s_69_en.html )OpenVMS based new application integration)G http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/ (VMS V7.3' running in prod)  L And here in Canada, a number of the big Loto's use OpenVMS, so your commentsE "The lotteries here are on Tandem, not VMS and the list goes on." arei certainly not valid. L  L Fwiw, I just did a big server consolidation presentation to the biggest LotoG in Ontario and they are looking at bigger OpenVMS boxes to replace manya smaller ones...    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultante Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesb Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: July 10, 2001 6:09 AMl To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comp: Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...     Robert Deininger wrote:eL > I don't think that's a fair statement.  Banks and stock exchanges also use4 > a lot of VMS.  I don't know the relative numbers.   L Perhaps in the USA, but in other counrties such as Canada,  banks do not useI VMS and stock exchanges do not use VMS. The lotteries here are on Tandem,  note VMS and the list goes on.t  G And remember that a big chunk of VMS hosts in financial institutiosn isu aboutmJ go be lost because SWIFT will shortly be pulling the plug on ST400. Compaq isK perfectly happy with this because they are confident that they can keep theeD customers who will flock to SWIFT's NT  solution on Compaq hardware.  L Just because a couple fo banks such as credit Lyonnais may at one point haveL had VMS does not mean that they still have it either. They may have migratedE to a unix based solution wth a new application. Consider how many oldl8 applications/systems were dumped in preparation for Y2K.    F While it is good for the vendor to paint a rosy picture to try to giveK customer more confidence and boost sales, I don't even think that Compaq ist& tryng to paint a rosy picture anymore.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:05:23 GMT & From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>) Subject: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64i: Message-ID: <TjB27.11989$4M3.2688848@typhoon1.gnilink.net>   ----- Original Message -----2 From: "Terry Shannon" <Terry.Shannon@CETS2001.com> To: <jeff@killeen.cc>-% Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:19 AM1  Subject: Terry Shannon Tech Talk    
 Dear Jeff,  J This is the first in a series of "Tech Talks" by Terry Shannon.  This Tech= Talk will be on IA-64: Good Questions You Will Need to Answer@  H We live in interesting times. Compaq and Intel on June 25 announced thatK Alpha, long the fastest processor on the planet, would reach its productionvF omega with the ~2004 introduction of the Alpha 21364 EV79 part. CompaqK subsequently will base all its enterprise systems on forthcoming members of L Intel's IPF (Itanium Processor Family), a.k.a. IA-64, microprocessor lineup.K Under the terms of the non-exclusive agreement-an agreement that represents F an undeniable coup for Intel-Compaq will consolidate its entire 64-bitH platform and OS lineup on the IPF architecture beginning in 2004. In theF near term, nothing will change. New Alpha systems and upgrades will beL rolled out through 2004, and all incumbent systems will be supported throughL 2012. Compaq already has started porting NSK, Tru64 UNIX, and VMS to the IPFJ while transferring key Alpha processor and compiler technology, tools, and engineering resources to Intel.l   They've Killed Alpha! Why?  K Compaq really didn't have much choice. Economic realities played a big roleEJ in the decision to terminate Alpha chip development upon the completion ofI the EV79 processor. Do the math: based on an estimated ship rate of ~100KlJ Alpha systems per year, Compaq's Alpha chip consumption was ~250K to ~500KK CPUs per year. Given Alpha design and development costs of ~$250M per year, I fixed overhead added as much as $1K to the cost of each Alpha chip CompaqkL shipped. Absent a dramatic increase in AlphaServer adoption rates, Alpha wasJ indicted by the law of diminishing returns, and tried and convicted in theJ court of the marketplace. What's more, SKC believes Compaq became privy toL McKinley performance information that drove a stake through the heart of the= Alpha "we're twice as fast as anyone else" value proposition._   So, Will IPF Be Alpha-Inside?e  J Good question! Given the radical differences in the Alpha superscalar RISCL and the IPF EPIC architectures, it's uncertain exactly which pieces of AlphaG technology can be incorporated into future IPF chips. (Indeed, the trueiF unification of a RISC and EPIC architecture would be the Mother of AllE Architectural Shotgun Marriages.) Intel will likely capitalize on theoH on-chip memory controller, interprocessor communications interfaces, andD on-chip routing technology that EV7 brings to the table; whether IPFF designers can leverage the EV8 processor's simultaneous multithreadingI design remains to be seen. With McKinley a done deal the question becomes K what will the Compaq impact be on the third-generation Madison IPF chip the.I generation after Deerfield IPF chip. How will Compaq execute its strategyN+ before it can fully impact IPF chip design?.   Wildfire, Marvel, then What?  J Mongo systems based on CPU Blades and an InfiniBand fabric, just as CompaqL planned to deliver.  The High Performance Systems Division began designing aI post-Marvel processor-neutral enterprise server that leverages CPU bladessL and InfiniBand fabric well over a year ago, with a projected availability inE the middle of the decade. (Those familiar with the ISSG's BladeRunnerhC architecture and the forthcoming QuickBlade server can consider the I enterprise server to be "QuickBlade on Steroids."  Since the platform wastF designed from the ground up to be architecture-neutral, the IPF-InsideB strategy will not impact the design team. Freed from the burden ofE developing-and funding-Alpha CPUs, Compaq can focus more resources on?I system-level enhancements and product differentiators such as RAS, common K management tools, middleware, advanced partitioning and resource management J capabilities, etc-in short, all the underpinnings for the firm's long-term Server Utility vision.   Details, We Need Details!i  L I will be expanding on this and other subjects during the opening session onG Sunday night at the Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium to be held in 6 Anaheim September 8-14.  For more details please visitJ http://www.CETS2001.com.  I also routinely cover the Compaq cross currentsH in my publication "Shannon Knows Compaq".  For more details please visit http://www.acersoft.com.     Copyright 2001 Terry C. Shannon    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:30:18 +0200 ) From: "Pio Baettig" <baettig@hotmail.com> - Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64t+ Message-ID: <3b4ae5c1@siufuxsun02.unifr.ch>l  1 "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in messages4 news:TjB27.11989$4M3.2688848@typhoon1.gnilink.net... >o > ----- Original Message -----4 > From: "Terry Shannon" <Terry.Shannon@CETS2001.com> > To: <jeff@killeen.cc>a' > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:19 AMe" > Subject: Terry Shannon Tech Talk     > They've Killed Alpha! Why? >CH > Compaq really didn't have much choice. Economic realities played a big roleL > in the decision to terminate Alpha chip development upon the completion ofK > the EV79 processor. Do the math: based on an estimated ship rate of ~100K L > Alpha systems per year, Compaq's Alpha chip consumption was ~250K to ~500KG > CPUs per year. Given Alpha design and development costs of ~$250M perr year,AK > fixed overhead added as much as $1K to the cost of each Alpha chip Compaqo
 > shipped.   etc etc   L Turn the prizes down, you will ship more thus this 1K overhead goes down. IfJ others survive with mass production, also Compaq should HAVE BEEN able to.F But Capellas wants to turn Compaq into a service and software company.5 Wonder how they will compete to IBM & MS & friends...  Look at the newestK http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=nonclustersA TPC benchmark, first line. 'nuff said. I wouldn't have dumped theaL architecture, but pushed with low cost entry level machines. Take the prizesL down for the DS10, you will sell more, consequently win more. But this wouldK be longer term and not shareholder-satisfying within 5 min what seems to ben the target of the taken move.n  9 Interesting read: http://www.theinquirer.net/09070116.htm    Kind regards   Pio Baettig    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:26:31 -0400t- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>i- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64c- Message-ID: <3B4AF477.4682221F@bellsouth.net>p  L it is interesting that everyone I see is clamouring for Sun, yet they do not  even place in the TPM/C ratings.   Michael Austin DBA Consultant   Pio Baettig wrote:  3 > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message 6 > news:TjB27.11989$4M3.2688848@typhoon1.gnilink.net... > >n  > > ----- Original Message -----6 > > From: "Terry Shannon" <Terry.Shannon@CETS2001.com> > > To: <jeff@killeen.cc>e) > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:19 AM $ > > Subject: Terry Shannon Tech Talk >e > > They've Killed Alpha! Why? > >aJ > > Compaq really didn't have much choice. Economic realities played a big > roleN > > in the decision to terminate Alpha chip development upon the completion ofM > > the EV79 processor. Do the math: based on an estimated ship rate of ~100K N > > Alpha systems per year, Compaq's Alpha chip consumption was ~250K to ~500KI > > CPUs per year. Given Alpha design and development costs of ~$250M pert > year,hM > > fixed overhead added as much as $1K to the cost of each Alpha chip Compaqt > > shipped. >r	 > etc etc  >tN > Turn the prizes down, you will ship more thus this 1K overhead goes down. IfL > others survive with mass production, also Compaq should HAVE BEEN able to.H > But Capellas wants to turn Compaq into a service and software company.7 > Wonder how they will compete to IBM & MS & friends...A > Look at the newestM > http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=nonclusteriC > TPC benchmark, first line. 'nuff said. I wouldn't have dumped the-N > architecture, but pushed with low cost entry level machines. Take the prizesN > down for the DS10, you will sell more, consequently win more. But this wouldM > be longer term and not shareholder-satisfying within 5 min what seems to beE > the target of the taken move.  >a; > Interesting read: http://www.theinquirer.net/09070116.htma >o > Kind regards >>
 > Pio BaettigV   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:14:49 GMTs& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64s9 Message-ID: <JZE27.8229$Tl4.2871005@typhoon2.gnilink.net>    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry C. Shannon"% Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:10 AMo  J Ah, time to get out the Charlie Matco Secret Decoder Ring. Sorry about the codename confusion.t  H IPF = Itanium Processor Family. First generation is the current Itanium,- followed by McKinley, Madison, and Deerfield.r  K Marvel = the Alpha EV7-based successor to the current GS80-GS320 "WildFire"vC server. Up to 64 CPUs, modular design, leverages EV7 "glueless SMP"0= interconnect strategy to reduce cost and improve scalability.a  J InfiniBand - a new low latency high bandwidth I/O and interconnect fabric.K It incorporates many of the concepts of Compaq's Tandem-developed ServerNethK architecture. InfiniBand will show up first as an I/O subsystem in ProLiantIG systems, and then will be adopted as a cluster interconnect. It is goodu stuff.  J QuickBlade, BladeRunner, etc. Code names for systems that will rely on CPUB modules (called Blades) that sit on an InfiniBand "backplane." RLXL Technologies, which was formed early this year by renegades from the HoustonH Server Mafia (ProLiant developers) also has a blade strategy and productK offering. Compaq's ISSG will debut QuickBlade-based IA-32 systems late this D year. The High Performance Systems Division won't have an equivalentB offering until ~2004. That will be the IPF-Inside successor to the% Alpha-based Marvel enterprise server.      cheers,l   terry si   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:49:47 -0500n* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64l+ Message-ID: <3B4B403B.E898AC8A@prodigy.net>i   I assume you mean TPC-C?  # http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/default.aspo  P "The TPC has released a new version of TPC-C (V5.0) which replaces the previous J version (V3.5).  ...  The first TPC-C V5 results will become available in  March 2001."  M So it seems everybody has to redo their benchmarks as a result of the change -K to V5.0.  That's an expensive process that takes time.  You're just seeing 5 the early returns.   Michael Austin wrote:r > N > it is interesting that everyone I see is clamouring for Sun, yet they do not" > even place in the TPM/C ratings. >  > Michael Austin > DBA Consultant >  > Pio Baettig wrote: > 5 > > "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message 8 > > news:TjB27.11989$4M3.2688848@typhoon1.gnilink.net... > > >'" > > > ----- Original Message -----8 > > > From: "Terry Shannon" <Terry.Shannon@CETS2001.com> > > > To: <jeff@killeen.cc> + > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:19 AMb& > > > Subject: Terry Shannon Tech Talk > >a  > > > They've Killed Alpha! Why? > > >gL > > > Compaq really didn't have much choice. Economic realities played a big > > roleP > > > in the decision to terminate Alpha chip development upon the completion ofO > > > the EV79 processor. Do the math: based on an estimated ship rate of ~100KeP > > > Alpha systems per year, Compaq's Alpha chip consumption was ~250K to ~500KK > > > CPUs per year. Given Alpha design and development costs of ~$250M pera	 > > year,rO > > > fixed overhead added as much as $1K to the cost of each Alpha chip Compaqt > > > shipped. > >b > > etc etc  > >eP > > Turn the prizes down, you will ship more thus this 1K overhead goes down. IfN > > others survive with mass production, also Compaq should HAVE BEEN able to.J > > But Capellas wants to turn Compaq into a service and software company.9 > > Wonder how they will compete to IBM & MS & friends...s > > Look at the newestO > > http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=nonclusterfE > > TPC benchmark, first line. 'nuff said. I wouldn't have dumped thexP > > architecture, but pushed with low cost entry level machines. Take the prizesP > > down for the DS10, you will sell more, consequently win more. But this wouldO > > be longer term and not shareholder-satisfying within 5 min what seems to beM! > > the target of the taken move.	 > >b= > > Interesting read: http://www.theinquirer.net/09070116.htm  > >0 > > Kind regards > >m > > Pio Baettig<   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:25:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated, Message-ID: <3B4AD7FE.C357C360@videotron.ca>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:eQ > I've heard that there won't be - a mistake in my estimation.  CPQ is making thenJ > vast assumption that everybody will have source code for all applicatons	 > they'reh > running. u  H Interestingly, this may be less of an issue because of the infamous Y2K.K Companies that didn't have source code prior to U2K may have been forced tooM redevelop or purchase new software to replace the stuff that the couldn't run. succcesfully in tests.  K Consider also that any application that used to store yeasr as 2 digits and-I now stores it at 4 would have meant changes in record layouts and hence ar recompile of the app.c  > So, would there really be that much left without source code ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:24:57 +0100r  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedH Message-ID: <OF07ED207D.F4ABBD60-ON80256A85.00390FF5@qedi.quintiles.com>   It depends.oJ Not all software contains date related information.  Not all software that1 shows a date actually uses it or needs to use it.r Steve.   >>>.H Interestingly, this may be less of an issue because of the infamous Y2K.K Companies that didn't have source code prior to U2K may have been forced toeI redevelop or purchase new software to replace the stuff that the couldn'tl runi succcesfully in tests.  K Consider also that any application that used to store yeasr as 2 digits andaI now stores it at 4 would have meant changes in record layouts and hence at recompile of the app.e  > So, would there really be that much left without source code ? <<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:07:19 +0100:% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated8 Message-ID: <18olktsc3vutu40i5pp0cugfcq8av2eo0j@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:25:04 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >Dan O'Reilly wrote:R >> I've heard that there won't be - a mistake in my estimation.  CPQ is making theK >> vast assumption that everybody will have source code for all applicatons 
 >> they're >> running.  >nI >Interestingly, this may be less of an issue because of the infamous Y2K. L >Companies that didn't have source code prior to U2K may have been forced toN >redevelop or purchase new software to replace the stuff that the couldn't run >succcesfully in tests.c  @ It is certainly true that most of the prep work required for ourB VAX=>Alpha migration was done as part of the Y2K work but we stillC have some vested software dating from around 1986, Not critical butrE another shot in the foot if we can't transition this. It's one of the E 'historical' apps but our field engineers in oil technologies need tohD get at this info fast from time to time and if we have to port it to9 something else it would just as likely end up off of VMS.    >rL >Consider also that any application that used to store yeasr as 2 digits andJ >now stores it at 4 would have meant changes in record layouts and hence a >recompile of the app. >i? >So, would there really be that much left without source code ?a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:40:16 +0000 (UTC)a' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)B: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <9iet3g$gjk$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>S  \ In article <3B4AD7FE.C357C360@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Dan O'Reilly wrote:R >> I've heard that there won't be - a mistake in my estimation.  CPQ is making theK >> vast assumption that everybody will have source code for all applicatons 
 >> they're >> running.  > I >Interestingly, this may be less of an issue because of the infamous Y2K.oL >Companies that didn't have source code prior to U2K may have been forced toN >redevelop or purchase new software to replace the stuff that the couldn't run >succcesfully in tests.m >eL >Consider also that any application that used to store yeasr as 2 digits andJ >now stores it at 4 would have meant changes in record layouts and hence a >recompile of the app. >p? >So, would there really be that much left without source code ?d  K Anything which didn't reference dates - which is probably the vast majorityg of code.  
 David Webb VMS and unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:36:53 +0100h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated* Message-ID: <3B4B04F5.B5D8E4E6@uk.sun.com>   Warren Spencer wrote:l > H > ah13473_nospam@remove_this.sun.com (Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy)3 > wrote in <3B44C1F3.72185B4D@remove_this.sun.com>:c >  > -- snip -- > K > >> - Alpha --> IA64-2 (or whatever the enhanced IA64 + Alpha architecture  > >> is called)l > >> > > / > >Requires a completely new os and ported apps0 > G > Huh?  I though we were porting OpenVMS -  a arguably smaller effort - J > rather than creating "a completely new os".  I repectfully disagree with > the connotation here.n >   4 You are porting OpenVMS to a new platform it will be9 a completely new release of the OS just as OpenVMS/Alpha n' was a completely new release of the OS.a  4 By completely new I don't mean that the new OS will 0 not consist of a proportion of code ported from  the old OS.   3 Just how big the proportion will be depends on the v1 scope of Compaqs port. A straight port would for e1 example be less than one that offers the ability   to emulate the Alpha as well.    regardsC Andrew Harrisont Enterprise IT Architecth   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 10:41:36 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)e: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <kOd5YNMP8BbY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <3B4B04F5.B5D8E4E6@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  > Warren Spencer wrote:w  H >> Huh?  I though we were porting OpenVMS -  a arguably smaller effort -K >> rather than creating "a completely new os".  I repectfully disagree witho >> the connotation here. >> c > 6 > You are porting OpenVMS to a new platform it will be; > a completely new release of the OS just as OpenVMS/Alpha t) > was a completely new release of the OS.e  B Aside from VEST, there were three big issues porting VMS to Alpha:   	1) 64-bit addressinga 	2) 64-bit addressingl 	3) 64-bit addressingH 	4) What to call the chipi  ; I think the strategic thing for Compaq to do in porting VMSeD to IA64 would be to port from Alpha rather than porting from VAX :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:12:47 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated& Message-ID: <3B4B297F.6D82D43@fsi.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > _ > In article <3B4B04F5.B5D8E4E6@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:a > > Warren Spencer wrote:r > J > >> Huh?  I though we were porting OpenVMS -  a arguably smaller effort -M > >> rather than creating "a completely new os".  I repectfully disagree withm > >> the connotation here. > >> > >a8 > > You are porting OpenVMS to a new platform it will be< > > a completely new release of the OS just as OpenVMS/Alpha+ > > was a completely new release of the OS.t > D > Aside from VEST, there were three big issues porting VMS to Alpha: >  >         1) 64-bit addressing >         2) 64-bit addressing >         3) 64-bit addressing" >         4) What to call the chip > = > I think the strategic thing for Compaq to do in porting VMS F > to IA64 would be to port from Alpha rather than porting from VAX :-)  H So, if there were and "AEST" package, would I be able to build-on-VAX -> VEST-on-Alpha -> AEST-on-IPF?-   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems0 http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 12:26:43 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <e6waHEOSWMlw@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  Z In article <3B4B297F.6D82D43@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> q` >> In article <3B4B04F5.B5D8E4E6@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: >> > Warren Spencer wrote: >> iK >> >> Huh?  I though we were porting OpenVMS -  a arguably smaller effort -hN >> >> rather than creating "a completely new os".  I repectfully disagree with >> >> the connotation here.r >> >>t >> >9 >> > You are porting OpenVMS to a new platform it will bee= >> > a completely new release of the OS just as OpenVMS/Alpha , >> > was a completely new release of the OS. >> .E >> Aside from VEST, there were three big issues porting VMS to Alpha:t >> ? >>         1) 64-bit addressingm >>         2) 64-bit addressingu >>         3) 64-bit addressingu# >>         4) What to call the chipv >> c> >> I think the strategic thing for Compaq to do in porting VMSG >> to IA64 would be to port from Alpha rather than porting from VAX :-)s > J > So, if there were and "AEST" package, would I be able to build-on-VAX -> > VEST-on-Alpha -> AEST-on-IPF?r  ? Even if that were possible, I am certain Compaq is not going to-4 revisit the lack of debug support for VESTed images.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:58:54 GMTy2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error 2 Message-ID: <ivG27.495$rc5.38938@news.cpqcorp.net>  ] In article <Pfa%6.154244$Mq.4633135@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>, dittman@dittman.net writes:tA :The VMS V7.3 SPD lists the MicroVAX II in both the supported and . :unsupported hardware list.  Which is correct?  F   AFAIK, supported through V7.2.  I'll check with the product manager.  F   Due to media availability, OpenVMS VAX systems upgrading to releasesG   after V7.3 will require access to (and the ability to bootstrap from)    a CD-ROM drive.a  ? In article <sb404a89.076@thor.metc.state.mn.us>, Wayne Johnson e*   <wayne.johnson@metc.state.mn.us> writes:  G :We are running 2 MicroVAX II's with 64 MB each.  (still running 5.5-2)V  F   Um, no, you don't.  The architectural addressing limit of the KA630 I   processor used in the MicroVAX II system is 16 MB.  Most KA630 systems  F   with a full configuration of memory contain 17 MB (two 8 MB MS630-CAH   modules, and 1 MB embedded on CPU), but only 16 MB of that memory can E   be addressed.  You probably have a KA650 or KA655 processor in your F   system, as these modules can easily reside in the same BA23 or BA123F   backplane as the MicroVAX II (as well as the S-box Q-bus enclosure, E   which has seen the occasional KA630 and which is a common home for  E   the KA650 and KA655 modules, but I digress), and can support 64 MB.e  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2001 06:57:50 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)eK Subject: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...)a3 Message-ID: <oJOiK$iV+ZrX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  ` In article <mmilktops1t185qjcfjc9clf0bbmm572pu@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:E > On 9 Jul 2001 16:58:49 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t > wrote: >  > @ >>	I'm not sure how exactly it will work but since compilers are? >>	going over to Intel and as Steve Lionel pointed out first toDB >>	go is Visual Fortran (and no they don't all "go" there, but you > C > Rob, could you please post the part of the Compaq/Intel agreementcH > which documents that "no they don't all 'go' there". Even Steve Lionel@ > has said he doesn't know where this stops and hasn't  seen the/ > agreement himself. If you have please say so.c  B The major uncertainty I saw from Steve Lionel's post was schedule,? rather than content.  One might infer that the Fortran transfer = experience will be used to estimate how long it would take toeA transfer those other languages that are scheduled to go to Intel.   H > If you'd stopped blurting out how everything was wonderful for a whileH > we might have just convinced enough people of Compaq's true intentionsF > for the Alpha chip and saved it. If you'd stop fantasizing about theE > future we might yet still save VMS if enough people ask hard enough E > questions RIGHT NOW. What do you really think will be gained by youaB > attempting to convince everyone that all is rosy so don't worry?  @ But Alan, what do you think will be gained by trying to convinceA everyone that the sky is falling ?  Many of us don't believe that0< and are looking for floor/rack space to put an IA64 into the? development cluster.  If you don't like that, stick with Alpha,-C or even VAX.  The prices for used machines get cheaper and cheaper.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:55:55 +0000 (UTC)6' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)yO Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...)e+ Message-ID: <9ieqgb$gjk$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>0  o In article <bV4jlg$eNGl5@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:0R >In article <3B4971BD.9AB78723@aster.si>, Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si> writes: >> Robert Deininger wrote: >vL >>> Keep in mind that it is less than 2 weeks since the public announcement.7 >>> You shouldn't expect concrete timetables yet, IMHO.  >> s >> Wrong, wrong, wrong!tA >> The timetables should be available alongside the announcement.n > C >Even with the small number of Compaq employees who knew about thisfE >in advance, there were already leaks.  Meaningful timetables are notnA >possible without involving more people. Do you really think Mark ? >Gorham, Rich Marcello or Michael Capellas knows the differencefB >between Alpha and IA64 page table mechanisms and how long it will< >take to port the section of VMS code that deals with them ? >aB >If there had been more people involve, there would have been moreB >leaks over a longer period of time, and this newsgroup would have# >had even more wailing and moaning.m  3 This would depend on what the people had been told.d  M "We're looking again at the possiblity of porting TRU64 to IA64 and doing thea= same with VMS - How many Man-days effort would be involved ? n Can we do a feasibilty study ?"t  D Noone would have been told that this would involve the end of Alpha.F There might have been a few here who would have seen this as a lack ofG commitment to Alpha but they would have been very much in the minority.e    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:35:24 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>hO Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Some thoughts on the recent turn...)/8 Message-ID: <ucplktca381ve6cf8878tfal8mqhon6pbq@4ax.com>  @ On 10 Jul 2001 06:57:50 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:    C >The major uncertainty I saw from Steve Lionel's post was schedule, @ >rather than content.  One might infer that the Fortran transfer> >experience will be used to estimate how long it would take toB >transfer those other languages that are scheduled to go to Intel.  E I'm basing some of my comments on some information received privately D via other channels. If it turns out to be wrong I'll figure out soon% enough by asking the right questions.5  A >But Alan, what do you think will be gained by trying to convinceRB >everyone that the sky is falling ?  Many of us don't believe that= >and are looking for floor/rack space to put an IA64 into thed@ >development cluster.  If you don't like that, stick with Alpha,  F I've also heard reason to believe that might be sooner than some thinkC for a development box. But there appear to be missing pieces of thef/ jigsaw for a supported fully qualified release.   C I believe that Compaq reversed an internal decision not to port VMSe? several months ago based on heavy customer unease. However thisd@ decision is 'soft;' and unless Compaq management see significantE disquiet from customers right now forcing them to answer some awkwardd8 question the port will never reach a commercial release.   We are being tested...  D >or even VAX.  The prices for used machines get cheaper and cheaper.  C I do not work for an employer who absolutely must use VMS. If I didvE and I could see my way to retirement (a long way away) in such a roleeC I'd probably not be too unhappy right now. I can't even think of an.F employer (other than perhaps a few defence apps) where I could suggest; that we could just buy second hand vaxes for years to come.s   -- Alan   ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:57:24 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>! Subject: What will we see at 2004a6 Message-ID: <200107100657.IAA01311@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  J will Intel be able to produce IA64 CPUs with SMT? Also will we see 128 wayH IA64 based server? Will we see Galaxy on IA64 till 2004? I can't believeG that. Actual Intel is not able to ship IA32 CPUs with the capability of C 8 way and 1GHz. I do see only, that as more CPUs (IA32) you connectcB together as less the CPU speed must be. Do you see the same by the3 Alphachip? I am not so optimistic as Terry Shannon.gD We (the user) will see at 2004 that there is only one processor fromF HP, IBM, SGI, ... and Compaq. Why should we buy Compaq. Our experienceB with Compaq PC's is not good. Why should we buy Compaq Server PCs?   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:22:44 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>d% Subject: Re: What will we see at 2004t; Message-ID: <iLz27.18119$gb6.1943932@news20.bellglobal.com>b  3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in messagea0 news:200107100657.IAA01311@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > Hello, >r3 > will Intel be able to produce IA64 CPUs with SMT?e  G I "believe" Intel needs Compaq's work on SMT (EV8) to get multiple EPICl! cores working inside one Itanium.e  - > Also will we see 128 way IA64 based server?p  J It was my position that we wouldn't see usable version of 128 way anythingK until EV7 (glueless SMP). What this probably means is that IA-64 "clusters"sL will become more popular which means cluster licenses for Compaq. (ps. don'tI get me wrong. Clusters have their uses but I've always considered "SMP ont$ OpenVMS" the apology for clustering)  = > Will we see Galaxy on IA64 till 2004? I can't believe that.c  L Probably not. Galaxy is very cool technology and related licences bring in aD fair bit of change but it seems that Compaq management is fixated on" hardware units produced + shipped.  C > Actual Intel is not able to ship IA32 CPUs with the capability of-E > 8 way and 1GHz. I do see only, that as more CPUs (IA32) you connecthD > together as less the CPU speed must be. Do you see the same by the5 > Alphachip? I am not so optimistic as Terry Shannon.kF > We (the user) will see at 2004 that there is only one processor fromH > HP, IBM, SGI, ... and Compaq. Why should we buy Compaq. Our experienceD > with Compaq PC's is not good. Why should we buy Compaq Server PCs? >p > Regards Rudolf Wingert >   H Consider this: when VAX/VMS was rolled out in 77-78 did DEC announce theI death of PDP (even if they were planning to eventually kill it off and/ortJ sell the 16-bit  technology to someone else)? When Alpha was rolled out inH 92-93 did DEC announce the future death of VAX? So why can't Compaq play+ their cards a little closer to their chest?     
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,i Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/s@ http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2001 14:29:50 GMT! From: Mark Hatch <mhatch@ics.com>hO Subject: www.motifzone.net - the site for Open Motif Developers  (monthly post)d' Message-ID: <3B4B115A.CBD96D7F@ics.com>-  D The Motif Zone (http://www.motifzone.net) is the center of a growingH community of open source developers dedicated to the ongoing developmentG and maintenance of Open Motif. In the last 12 months, the MotifZone has B hosted over 500,000 downloads of Open Motif and processed over 30+G Million website hits. With over 4,000 registered members, the MotifZonetE provides an unique site that combines the talents of mission criticalv> application developers with the innovations of the open source
 community.  A The latest binaries and sources of Open Motif, as well as relatedwB software, are hosted at the MotifZone and are freely available forE downloads. An anonymous CVS tree is also provided to those that wouldoD like to enhance or just learn more about the GUI toolkit that is theH industry standard on UNIX workstations. In addition, the MotifZone hosts3 the official Open Motif defect tracking system too.e  E A number of community efforts are underway at the MotifZone to extend   and improve Motif. Specifically: - Themes for OpenMotifH - Autoconfigure building of sources (for those preferring an alternative	 to imake) 
 - Tooltips  H For developers looking to program using the Motif toolkit, the MotifZone@ offers the Internet's largest collection of reference materials,E tutorials, technical articles and formal documentation on X and MotifdH programming. Hundred's of links are provided to both commercial and open( source tools that can speed development.  A The Open Help Forums provides a selection of channels for postingsG questions and receiving help from your peers. The signal-to-noise ratioeG of these channels is high with questions typically being "on-topic" andmE none of the usual "get rich quick" scams seen on the comp.x.windows.*t? newsgroups. The use of nicknames for identification provides anrH effective barrier to spammers that comb the newsgroups looking for email
 addresses.  H And of course, the MotifZone provides the usual collection of feeds fromC sites like Freshmeat, Slashdot and Linux Today so that you can stay4. current with the latest changes in technology.  < The Motif Zone is sponsored by Integrated Computer SolutionsD (http://www.ics.com), providers of GUI development tools for X/Motif developers.a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.380 ************************