1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 11 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 382       Contents:5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore 
 Re: ALTRAN
 Re: ALTRAN another partner  Attunity Connect and Oracle 8  Re: CETS2001 Inquiry Re: CETS2001 Inquiry CETS2001 Session question  Re: CETS2001 Session question  RE: CETS2001 Session question D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?D RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?B Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice... Consultant needed "C-GOD"  Re: Consultant needed "C-GOD"  Re: Copying "foreign" tapes... Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more  Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more  Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more ! Re: DEC Notes available, someone? ! Re: DEC Notes available, someone? ! Re: DEC Notes available, someone? 	 Re: emacs 	 RE: emacs 	 RE: emacs  Re: Experience with EMC storage 1 Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible?  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: Future support of VAX-VMS 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 RE: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 0 How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS server4 RE: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS server4 Re: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS server4 Re: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS server Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World " Re: Increasing VT420 luminosity... Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  RE: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  InterSystems (Brazil) ( Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation Re: Memory Channel II  Re: Memory Channel II  RE: Memory Channel II  Re: Memory Channel II . Re: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment). Re: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment). RE: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment)	 Minimerge 
 Re: Minimerge 
 Re: Minimerge 
 Re: Minimerge   Re: MX V4.2 installation problem Re: OpenVMS and IP Storage Re: OpenVMS and IP Storage- Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE  Outta here.  Re: Outta here.  Re: Printer hookups 1 Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events... $ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-641 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated  Tired of Bills. 4  Re: Tired of Bills. 4  VXT 2000 with VMS?!  Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!  Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!  Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!  Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?! + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either 5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:15:17 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore8 Message-ID: <9ucokt8vh104nekvu0j1i8j9vpb031cq2b@4ax.com>  D On 10 Jul 2001 17:09:37 -0700, morton_john@hotmail.com (John Morton) wrote:   >Compaq Death Spiral > N >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010710/aponline171821_000.htm >  >The Associated Press & >Tuesday, July 10, 2001; 5:18 p.m. EDT > F >HOUSTON &#8211;&#8211; In its second wave of staffing cuts this year,D >Compaq Computer Corp. said Tuesday it was trimming 4,000 more jobs,B >bringing the total number of workers it plans to cut this year to >8,500.   F I wonder if this number includes those transferring to Intel. ProbablyC not. Still if Alphaserver sales now crash then that number could be D achieved by shutting down the Ayr Alphaserver plant and building the+ few still ordered in Mike Winkler's garage.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:08:03 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore8 Message-ID: <l4boktgqjugb4epqj3vd1hcv8tcipv0ev8@4ax.com>  @ On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:38:05 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:   K >When is the last time I received a brochure touting an Alpha based system? L >Gee, that memory is housed somewhere in long term storage.  When will I see >another?  Never.   E Yet the strange thing is this was true in the UK as well until a year D ago then we started seeing a flood of Alphaserver and even VMS pressF ads and direct mailshots. In fact the latest Alphaserver brochure justD arrived last week. What was all this about? Was it an attempt to see> if a year of increased marketing in selected countries had anyD noticeable impact on sales. Did there just happen to be a more Alpha@ centric group in the UK. Was it just a case of the left hand notC knowing what the right hand was doing? Then there was the letter to C The Economist from the CEO of Compaq International backing Alpha to E the hilt. We wondered then why the letter was not written by Capellas  himself. Now it seems we know.    ? In any case even this was cocked up as a month before "I-Day" I A received Intel brochures in response to a call to the Alphaserver ! toll-free number on the mailshot.   E Strangely today I received a copy of The Economist courtesy of Compaq ? with the cover note saying "Shocked to hear we're number one in D storage". But there was no coverage of Compaq in the issue. A lot ofC (mainly negative) Microsoft coverage "Microsoft : Guilty" (in depth A analysis of the appeal judgement)..Other articles in the magazine D included coverage of the experiment in decriminalization of cannabis< in parts of London "Brixton Lights Up" but probably the mostA appropriate article was subtitled "Poor Profits, Striking Pilots, ? Congestion, Delays" but that was about the air industry and not . Compaq's high flying Alpha and VMS engineers..   > K >Letting Alpha die and all of the O/S platforms which boot upon it is clear J >and decisive proof.  If they keep on this course, your newsletter will beL >undergoing another name change to "Shannon Knows Nothing".  Not meant to beP >a slur against you -- simply that there will be nothing left for you report.      Shannon Knew Stuff? ? Beavis and Butthead do Compaq - the story of Michael 'Butthead' A Capellas and Mike 'Beavis' Winkler tour of destruction of Compaq?  That SUCKS!!!!!!!  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:36:04 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in SingaporeL Message-ID: <OF3C693880.10A48DE4-ON03256A86.00452B26@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  B We from the OpenVMS world are "neutral".... may be we survive ....       Regards    FC        6 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> em 11/07/2001 08:08:03  1 Favor responder a Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       > Assunto: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore    @ On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:38:05 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:   K >When is the last time I received a brochure touting an Alpha based system? H >Gee, that memory is housed somewhere in long term storage.  When will I see  >another?  Never.   E Yet the strange thing is this was true in the UK as well until a year D ago then we started seeing a flood of Alphaserver and even VMS pressF ads and direct mailshots. In fact the latest Alphaserver brochure justD arrived last week. What was all this about? Was it an attempt to see> if a year of increased marketing in selected countries had anyD noticeable impact on sales. Did there just happen to be a more Alpha@ centric group in the UK. Was it just a case of the left hand notC knowing what the right hand was doing? Then there was the letter to C The Economist from the CEO of Compaq International backing Alpha to E the hilt. We wondered then why the letter was not written by Capellas  himself. Now it seems we know.  ? In any case even this was cocked up as a month before "I-Day" I A received Intel brochures in response to a call to the Alphaserver ! toll-free number on the mailshot.   E Strangely today I received a copy of The Economist courtesy of Compaq ? with the cover note saying "Shocked to hear we're number one in D storage". But there was no coverage of Compaq in the issue. A lot ofC (mainly negative) Microsoft coverage "Microsoft : Guilty" (in depth A analysis of the appeal judgement)..Other articles in the magazine D included coverage of the experiment in decriminalization of cannabis< in parts of London "Brixton Lights Up" but probably the mostA appropriate article was subtitled "Poor Profits, Striking Pilots, ? Congestion, Delays" but that was about the air industry and not . Compaq's high flying Alpha and VMS engineers..   > K >Letting Alpha die and all of the O/S platforms which boot upon it is clear J >and decisive proof.  If they keep on this course, your newsletter will beI >undergoing another name change to "Shannon Knows Nothing".  Not meant to  beE >a slur against you -- simply that there will be nothing left for you  report.    Shannon Knew Stuff? ? Beavis and Butthead do Compaq - the story of Michael 'Butthead' A Capellas and Mike 'Beavis' Winkler tour of destruction of Compaq?  That SUCKS!!!!!!!  -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 13:24:10 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore3 Message-ID: <y4UVSGlllOom@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <l4boktgqjugb4epqj3vd1hcv8tcipv0ev8@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:B > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:38:05 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian! > Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:  > L >>When is the last time I received a brochure touting an Alpha based system?M >>Gee, that memory is housed somewhere in long term storage.  When will I see  >>another?  Never. > G > Yet the strange thing is this was true in the UK as well until a year F > ago then we started seeing a flood of Alphaserver and even VMS pressH > ads and direct mailshots. In fact the latest Alphaserver brochure justF > arrived last week. What was all this about? Was it an attempt to see@ > if a year of increased marketing in selected countries had anyF > noticeable impact on sales. Did there just happen to be a more AlphaB > centric group in the UK. Was it just a case of the left hand notE > knowing what the right hand was doing? Then there was the letter to E > The Economist from the CEO of Compaq International backing Alpha to G > the hilt. We wondered then why the letter was not written by Capellas ! > himself. Now it seems we know.    G If history is any indicator, I should be receiving a ton of Alphaserver H literature real soon now.  When CPQ killed NT on Alpha (albeit with muchA help from the Great Software Fuhrer) I received more NT on Alpha  A literature during the post mortem than while it was still viable.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:31:55 +0200 + From: Maarten van Tilburg <mtilburg@wxs.nl>  Subject: Re: ALTRAN & Message-ID: <3B4C473B.D7505B20@wxs.nl>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > 
 > Hey Sirs > L > Do you know if ALTRAN is a good company ? They are hiring OpenVMS / Oracle > RDB # > professionals here in Brazil ....  > 	 > Regards  >  > FC  8 No idea, I had the impression that they are contractors.H I did send my resume to them (for the jobs in Salvador), but no response yet.A I would prefer a job in Rio , though (the family of my wife lives > there). Any idea what companies (besides petrobras) use VMS ?    Maarten van Tilburg    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:50:33 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br  Subject: Re: ALTRAN L Message-ID: <OFB605D0DD.64CE2A39-ON03256A86.004649D8@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Martin  % Salvador is good for single males :-)     . In Brazil I know a few companies using VMS ...   a) Motorola  b) CSN (siderugy) ? c) Embratel (long distance telecom. carrier - bought by Sprint)  d) Vale do Rio Doce (mining)  % Well I know these big companies only.      Regards    FC        < Maarten van Tilburg <mtilburg@wxs.nl> em 11/07/2001 09:31:55  7 Favor responder a Maarten van Tilburg <mtilburg@wxs.nl>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com        Assunto: Re: ALTRAN     * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > 
 > Hey Sirs > E > Do you know if ALTRAN is a good company ? They are hiring OpenVMS /  Oracle > RDB # > professionals here in Brazil ....  > 	 > Regards  >  > FC  8 No idea, I had the impression that they are contractors.H I did send my resume to them (for the jobs in Salvador), but no response yet.A I would prefer a job in Rio , though (the family of my wife lives = there). Any idea what companies (besides petrobras) use VMS ?    Maarten van Tilburg    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:54:46 -0400 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: another partner2 Message-ID: <3F_27.560$rc5.39796@news.cpqcorp.net>   Dear Newsgroup,   , Here is another application partner for you:    Networking Dynamics Corporation.  J The OpenVMS productivity software offered can be reviewed and trial copies9 downloaded from their website. www.networkingdynamics.com   G They offer solutions in the key areas of viewing and controlling remote L terminals, running multiple sessions on a terminal, faxing, keeping informedA of system events via pager, deleting idle processes, handling I/O ; bottlenecks and efficiently managing and monitoring queues.   
 Sue Skonetski    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:18:05 -0700$ From: ewilts@mediaone.net (Ed wilts)& Subject: Attunity Connect and Oracle 8= Message-ID: <e12df3dd.0107110918.3ced16de@posting.google.com>   B The Attunity Connect product from Compaq currently has support forC Oracle 7, but nothing in the docs has anything about Oracle 8.  Has F anybody made it work with Oracle 8 or know of Compaq's plans to update it?    Thanks, 	    .../Ed    mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:13:31 -0500# From: medleyb@ev1.net (Bert Medley)  Subject: Re: CETS2001 Inquiry : Message-ID: <Xns90DB696E0427Dmedleybev1net@207.218.245.68>  I It's been a while since I've been to a "Decus" symposium.  Do they still  " have the "war stories" sessions?     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:36:52 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: CETS2001 Inquiry ' Message-ID: <3B4C7294.2F0AD6BF@fsi.net>    Bert Medley wrote: > J > It's been a while since I've been to a "Decus" symposium.  Do they still" > have the "war stories" sessions?  F Well, that could be just about any conversation, given recent history.  > Seriously - there's usually a "Denizens of comp.os.vms" BOF...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:46:27 -0400 + From: "O'Connor, Marty" <MOConnor@DVFS.COM> " Subject: CETS2001 Session questionF Message-ID: <85C741006DA1D0119CE00000F8752CE305004190@msexc1.dvfs.com>  I I'm getting read to make my plane reservations for CETS 2001. I have beenCK attending DECUS off and on since 1985. One session I always enjoyed was theiJ session where people tried to stump the VMS engineers. IIRC it was usuallyK the last day. If anyone knows when it will be scheduled please let me know. ; I don't want to schedule too early of a flight and miss it.a   Marty    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:59:23 -0400 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>& Subject: Re: CETS2001 Session question2 Message-ID: <7RZ27.555$rc5.39763@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Glad you like the session since it is the only one I have at CETS (however IL will be keeping busy in other areas).  I have not heard back on when it will be scheduled yet.   L You know what I like about the session (other than being surrounded by folksG that love VMS) is hearing the stories and situations and how folks havewK worked at solving their problems.  And ok I admit it, I really like it whenoI there is a really hard question and one of the engineers just rattles thei answer off like it was nothing.f  K If you were in LA last year you will notice that we did change it a little, I so that it is not a stump the engineers but a serious question and answereL panel and every question asker gets the same gift so there is not a question on the level of stumpness (?).  
 Warm Regards,o   Sues  6 "O'Connor, Marty" <MOConnor@DVFS.COM> wrote in message@ news:85C741006DA1D0119CE00000F8752CE305004190@msexc1.dvfs.com...K > I'm getting read to make my plane reservations for CETS 2001. I have beeniI > attending DECUS off and on since 1985. One session I always enjoyed wasT thevL > session where people tried to stump the VMS engineers. IIRC it was usuallyG > the last day. If anyone knows when it will be scheduled please let mea know.e= > I don't want to schedule too early of a flight and miss it.s >  > Martye   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:05:46 -0500n+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>n& Subject: RE: CETS2001 Session questionL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2054@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: Sue Skonetski [mailto:susan.skonetski@compaq.com]C  : > worked at solving their problems.  And ok I admit it, I  > really like it whene@ > there is a really hard question and one of the engineers just 
 > rattles theu! > answer off like it was nothing.g  B Obviously, the value SYS_RLYHRDMAX was set high for that engineer.   Regards,   Chriso  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");g '   t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:37:39 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window? 8 Message-ID: <ne6oktkm7mhs1mnhqoot4kk2q1c4jkrqjs@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:06:00 -0400, Steve Lionel  <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote:  D >On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:23:14 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> >wrote:  >? >>What about BLISS?  >?G >Funny you should ask.  BLISS is owned by GEM, but is currently in "bugnG >fix only" mode.  Many of us think that an IPF version of BLISS will be G >needed.  This is one of MANY details that still need to be worked out.d  D If there wasn't an IPF version of BLISS just how would you build VMSF for IA64? Hacked together cross- compiler on an Alpha? How would third@ parties build products based on BLISS? Any outcome which doesn'tB produce a VMS native BLISS for IA64 will surely signal even to the= terminally dumb that iVMS has no real future. And I know thatfD description doesn't apply to anyone from the former DEC OS , layered products and compiler teams.  @ Wishing you and everyone else concerned well with these internal1 discussions. And I really do mean that sincerely.w   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:19 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?y8 Message-ID: <1l7okt8ajst4lmb8cjep02rtubnmei4nl1@4ax.com>  @ On 10 Jul 2001 11:31:22 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   >  >dF >The last I knew, the VMS debugger was supported from VMS Development, >not from the language groups.  @ But source  level debugging can only work with an extremely highD degree of support from the compiler. At the very least VMS and Intel@ will have to work closely together to ensure they stay in synch.A Presumably Intel intend providing a debugger for their compilers. C Either any future source level compiler debug support for the IntelsB versions of the compilers will have to have the corresponding bitsF added to the VMS side or else the VMS side gradually drifts behind and@ out of synch with the Intel native products until VMS looks even further stuck in the dark ages.e  E Never having used (say) the Compaq Visual Fortran environment I don't F know how much debugging under it looks like debugging under VMS at the moment. Anyone help me there?   D What about the linking process I hesitate to ask? Is any of the code8 common here between VMS and the bits going off to Intel?  D And forgetting BLISS for the moment  let's definitely not ask if anyB bits going to Intel are currently written in compiled Macro-32 andB what that might imply... Although the idea of an IA64 chip sold byD Intel running Intel products built with BLISS and Macro-32 does haveB its amusing aspects I have to admit. The saddest aspect is that itA shows just how much Intel values technology that Compaq corporatehB doesn't even understand due to their gross incompetence. But can'tD entirely blame Compaq I guess. The blame really lies with Palmer and? the idiots who ousted Olsen long before he demonstrated that hep couldn't turn things around.    G >> But wouldn't it be nicer from Intel's point of view if they just had  >> BLISS as well?u >sE >I think Intel is mainly interested in things they can sell copies ofo >on other operating systems.  E But under current plans will get BLISS as part of GEM it seems in anyfE case. I'm happy to see that  well capable people within Compaq and/oreB soon to be in "Inside Intel"tm are trying to sort out right now...  E In any case I think putting certain questions along the lines touchedhF on here to local VMS ambassadors and Compaq account reps can hardly doB any harm. Best to get Compaq to commit to common sense in print ifB possible if it helps avoid Compaq management displaying an amazing lack of it later.A -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:05:06 -0400o, From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?a8 Message-ID: <qlmoktked5do9tes3rb1jfpi872ehgju0t@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:19 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t wrote:  A >But source  level debugging can only work with an extremely high'E >degree of support from the compiler. At the very least VMS and Intel A >will have to work closely together to ensure they stay in synch. B >Presumably Intel intend providing a debugger for their compilers.D >Either any future source level compiler debug support for the IntelC >versions of the compilers will have to have the corresponding bits G >added to the VMS side or else the VMS side gradually drifts behind and A >out of synch with the Intel native products until VMS looks even   >further stuck in the dark ages.  A Yes, this is clearly the case.  The compiler needs to know how to:? write the VMS DST language and do it well.  I do not expect VMSe. debugger support to "slip" in future versions.  F >Never having used (say) the Compaq Visual Fortran environment I don'tG >know how much debugging under it looks like debugging under VMS at theh >moment. Anyone help me there? a  : If you've used the DECwindows DEBUG interface, it has someF similarities. But this is irrelevant to the conversation here - nobody7 is proposing porting Microsoft Developer Studio to VMS!   E >What about the linking process I hesitate to ask? Is any of the codee9 >common here between VMS and the bits going off to Intel?s   The linker is part of the OS.i  E >And forgetting BLISS for the moment  let's definitely not ask if anyuC >bits going to Intel are currently written in compiled Macro-32 andc >what that might imply...    None that I am aware of.  E Please don't get bogged down in what bits go where.  You have a rightpC to be concerned that support of products you use today does not geteE adversely affected by this arrangement, but I don't think it's useful : to fret about who owns what.  The agreement includes broadE cross-licensing and code sharing, so there is the ability to continue " to deliver what we deliver today.   F I do think it would be useful for users to work with Compaq managementE to define what they want for OpenVMS products on IA64. ENCOMPASS/CETSr is a good channel for that.g    - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)e Fortran Engineering"* High-Performance Technical Computing Group& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:24:19 -0700a! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>aM Subject: RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?a9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEFCCPAA.tom@kednos.com>a   Steve,   Do Fortran customers use SDL?e   Toml   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Steve Lionel [mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com]o( > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:05 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com G > Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out them	 > window?e >  > E > On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:19 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>B > wrote: > C > >But source  level debugging can only work with an extremely highnG > >degree of support from the compiler. At the very least VMS and Intel-C > >will have to work closely together to ensure they stay in synch. D > >Presumably Intel intend providing a debugger for their compilers.F > >Either any future source level compiler debug support for the IntelE > >versions of the compilers will have to have the corresponding bitsmI > >added to the VMS side or else the VMS side gradually drifts behind andGC > >out of synch with the Intel native products until VMS looks even " > >further stuck in the dark ages. > C > Yes, this is clearly the case.  The compiler needs to know how tosA > write the VMS DST language and do it well.  I do not expect VMSe0 > debugger support to "slip" in future versions. > H > >Never having used (say) the Compaq Visual Fortran environment I don'tI > >know how much debugging under it looks like debugging under VMS at theA! > >moment. Anyone help me there?   > < > If you've used the DECwindows DEBUG interface, it has someH > similarities. But this is irrelevant to the conversation here - nobody9 > is proposing porting Microsoft Developer Studio to VMS!  > G > >What about the linking process I hesitate to ask? Is any of the code ; > >common here between VMS and the bits going off to Intel?  >  > The linker is part of the OS.q > G > >And forgetting BLISS for the moment  let's definitely not ask if any E > >bits going to Intel are currently written in compiled Macro-32 andh > >what that might imply...  >  > None that I am aware of. > G > Please don't get bogged down in what bits go where.  You have a rightuE > to be concerned that support of products you use today does not get G > adversely affected by this arrangement, but I don't think it's useful-< > to fret about who owns what.  The agreement includes broadG > cross-licensing and code sharing, so there is the ability to continue $ > to deliver what we deliver today.  > H > I do think it would be useful for users to work with Compaq managementG > to define what they want for OpenVMS products on IA64. ENCOMPASS/CETSD > is a good channel for that.z >  > / > Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)i > Fortran Engineering , > High-Performance Technical Computing Group( > Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH > 8 > Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:10:19 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?c8 Message-ID: <ldpoktk2dr7qpp613p55nm8a61fo0t4mie@4ax.com>  0 On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:05:06 -0400, Steve Lionel  <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> wrote:   >fE >>Either any future source level compiler debug support for the Intel.D >>versions of the compilers will have to have the corresponding bitsH >>added to the VMS side or else the VMS side gradually drifts behind andB >>out of synch with the Intel native products until VMS looks even! >>further stuck in the dark ages./ >2B >Yes, this is clearly the case.  The compiler needs to know how to@ >write the VMS DST language and do it well.  I do not expect VMS/ >debugger support to "slip" in future versions.:  D Glad to hear it from you as that's about as definitive as we can get
 right now.  G >>Never having used (say) the Compaq Visual Fortran environment I don'tdH >>know how much debugging under it looks like debugging under VMS at the  >>moment. Anyone help me there?  > ; >If you've used the DECwindows DEBUG interface, it has somebG >similarities. But this is irrelevant to the conversation here - nobodyp8 >is proposing porting Microsoft Developer Studio to VMS!  $ Well Dave Cutler might I suppose ;-)   > F >>What about the linking process I hesitate to ask? Is any of the code: >>common here between VMS and the bits going off to Intel? >r >The linker is part of the OS.  C Agreed although that is not exactly the question I asked although Ir9 think you've answered my real underlying question anyway.w > F >>And forgetting BLISS for the moment  let's definitely not ask if anyD >>bits going to Intel are currently written in compiled Macro-32 and >>what that might imply... m >  >None that I am aware of.l  B I had heard that Macro-32 cross-compiled routines existed in a fewE places even on non VAX/Alpha platforms but I guess from your responseiD these have ether gone or are in products other than those needed forE Fortran and relatively minor if they do still exist. Some of the infom2 I based some of my questions on is a little dated.  F >Please don't get bogged down in what bits go where.  You have a rightD >to be concerned that support of products you use today does not getF >adversely affected by this arrangement, but I don't think it's useful; >to fret about who owns what.  The agreement includes broadt  E If contracts have been signed which specify things in black and white-D then it is not useful in a practical sense. In a let off steam senseD it might be but that will die down if and only if all of this works.E I'll take your hint and try and leave you folks to it until some morel news good or bad appears.u  F >cross-licensing and code sharing, so there is the ability to continue# >to deliver what we deliver today. e  B It;s not so much the ability as the excuse any added inter-companyE overhead at all might give for later decisions I might not like. I goAF on past experience and that tells me that decisions such as GOTO INTELE have at the very least enormous financial ramifications for end userssD and, at worst, remove the product completely after a couple of years7 half hearted 3rd party support. That's why I'm nervous.f   >.G >I do think it would be useful for users to work with Compaq managementdF >to define what they want for OpenVMS products on IA64. ENCOMPASS/CETS >is a good channel for that.  @ And believe me I'm talking with DECUS UK on just that subject :)   >t >s. >Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com) >Fortran Engineering+ >High-Performance Technical Computing Groupt' >Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH, >e7 >Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran-   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:12:26 GMTM2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)M Subject: RE: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?t2 Message-ID: <KV_27.564$rc5.39570@news.cpqcorp.net>  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEFCCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes: % :Steve, Do Fortran customers use SDL?.  6   Though not the Steve you intended to address, yes...  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:27:32 -0400t- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> K Subject: Re: Computer Rooms and big UPSes: I need some electrical advice...w( Message-ID: <3B4C6252.EEEEDD1B@ohio.edu>  H It depends on the circumstances.  In the AC power application we startedG this thread discussing, it is likely to occur twice each cycle.  If theiH motor is being speeded up, the power to the motor exceeds the power fromB the moter, which is usually described as a positive value of powerF consumed by the motor.  If the external power has suddenly failed, andE the motor is slowing down, the kinetic energy of the spinning load isdD transferred to the external circuitry with a negative value of power consumed by the motor.  A An example in the DC case, which can be sustained indefinitely, ayC moderately reverse-biased diode (PN junction) will have current andFI potential difference of opposite signs.  That just means that heat energyeD is being extracted from the junction and transferred to the externalI circuit.  Commercial applications of this phenomenon include beer coolersiF you can plug into your car's cigarrette lighter and active coolers for= CPU chips so that they can run faster.  This also can provide D vibrationless refrigeration (down to perhaps -20 Celsius) if you canI ensure smooth airflow over the heat sinks at a rate adequate to dissipate0E the heat extracted from the cold side plus the heat dissipated in the0
 power supply.i  #                                 RDP9     "David J. Dachtera" wrote:   > "Richard D. Piccard" wrote:g
 > > [snip]G > >         ***the current and potential need not be in phase with eachv > > other*** >sF > Not being an EE, I've often wondered: can current remain positive if= > potential goes negative? If so, for how long and under whatn > circumstances? >n > -- > David J. Dachterav > dba DJE Systemsw > http://www.djesys.com/ >.< > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/p > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. >-B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. >gH > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.w   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:52:08 -0400a" From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@tessco.com>" Subject: Consultant needed "C-GOD"O Message-ID: <DBC18F524F0B2718.BED63845A9F43E05.0E74C2202F38BFB0@lp.airnews.net>v   TESSCO Technologiesw Baltimore Maryland  G     We need the services of a "C-GOD" with experience in Oracle/Rdb andaJ SQLMOD.... basically someone to review our use of  Compaq C and Oracle RDBL coding standards... This person should also be extremely proficient in usingA the VMS Debugger with C as we have one or two tough bugs to slay.   J     Engagement period is at least one week, possibly two.  Reply by e-mail and not via this group.s   Hal Kuff Kuff@Tessco.Comn   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:32:32 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)& Subject: Re: Consultant needed "C-GOD"2 Message-ID: <kk_27.557$rc5.39691@news.cpqcorp.net>  t In article <DBC18F524F0B2718.BED63845A9F43E05.0E74C2202F38BFB0@lp.airnews.net>, "Hal Kuff" <kuff@tessco.com> writes:  H :    We need the services of a "C-GOD" with experience in Oracle/Rdb andK :SQLMOD.... basically someone to review our use of  Compaq C and Oracle RDBeM :coding standards... This person should also be extremely proficient in usingyB :the VMS Debugger with C as we have one or two tough bugs to slay. :hK :    Engagement period is at least one week, possibly two.  Reply by e-mail  :and not via this group.    L   Not sure I count as a C or SQL$PRE diety...  I do have passing experience L   with C, OpenVMS, Rdb, embedded SQL, and the OpenVMS debugger, among other M   topics.  I've some experience with hunting for bugs in C and SC code using gJ   the debugger and using other techniques.  (But I also have some hot Rdb K   and some OpenVMS-on-IPF work running, thus my availability would be, um,  M   subject to Compaq management approval, um, limited and, um, expensive). :-)t  K   And we now return to our regularly scheduled dose of reality: The OpenVMSaK   Ask The Wizard area's topic (1661) has a list of some of the more common eG   errors found lurking on C.  qv: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/e  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:51:51 -0400n From: xyz abc <xx@yy.com>o' Subject: Re: Copying "foreign" tapes...eC Message-ID: <MPG.15b64021a1197b03989680@primary.news.compuhelp.com>o  J [This followup was posted to comp.os.vms and a copy was sent to the cited  author.]  C In article <9hl036$kqg$1@news.tamu.edu>, Wiley@Tarleton.edu says...  > M > I am trying to figure out how to copy some tapes from a non-VMS system (CDC M > Cyber) to files on disk.  I don't want any kind of conversion or changes toIM > the data.  I even want all the label information and any end of file marks,eN > etc to go along.  My plan is to download these "container" files to a PC andH > burn CD's.  The tape drive on the VMS system is a SCSI attached TSZ07. > M > I have tried mounting a tape with the /over=all parameter, but I get errors , > if I just try to use the VMS copy command. > 0 > Could someone point me in the right direction? >  > Thanks >  > James L. Wiley > Wiley@Tarleton.edu >  >  >  > H We have software that does precisely that, but it's PC-based. You could F connect that scsi tape drive to a PC with scsi card and a CD burner...  I Is this for your school or for personal use? (We can give an educational 9E discount.) FYI-- our software can also extract files from VMS Backup l tapes.   Chris Muller www.mullermedia.comt    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:58:14 -0400t) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>s( Subject: Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more; Message-ID: <9vU27.22637$as2.1178831@news20.bellglobal.com>h  I Every day at 5:00 PM your company's assets walk out the door and you prayi1 that they'll show up the next morning at 9:00 AM.   ; I wonder what the return rate is for "layed off" employees?s  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 02:19:59 -0700. From: mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon)( Subject: Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more= Message-ID: <7500353b.0107110119.29f3fd33@posting.google.com>m  v "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<VGP27.677$bj6.390685@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...K > $185M of the restructuring charge reflects a writedown of cancelled AlphaS > development activities...   F Are these 4000 poor souls interconnected to the Alpha business ? AlphaB was cut down. Engineers got employed immediatelly to Intel - it isC hard to find good engineers, therefore the employment situation forn? engineers is good. The Alpha engineers got propably good kicks,36 althought maybe not as good as designing your own CPU.  C But how about people designing and building boards, chipsets, video D cards, subsystems etc ? How about the partnership management, sales,, marketing, distribution, manufacturing etc ?  C Are we starting now to see what happends when you let a snowball tog roll from the top of the hill ?e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:53:07 GMTw4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: CPQ is laying off 4000 more; Message-ID: <neW27.1009$bj6.627558@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>M  ; "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in messagel7 news:7500353b.0107110119.29f3fd33@posting.google.com...PA > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messageN6 news:<VGP27.677$bj6.390685@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...G > > $185M of the restructuring charge reflects a writedown of cancelled: Alpha0 > > development activities...n >cB > Are these 4000 poor souls interconnected to the Alpha business ?  L No. Not at all. The $185M is for writing off cancelled EV8, etc development.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2001 13:58:15 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)S* Subject: Re: DEC Notes available, someone?' Message-ID: <9ihm1n$fnd$1@joe.rice.edu>b  . Freddy Meerwaldt (frederik@freddym.org) wrote: : Hi Steve,G :tH : > >Anyway, we would like to install DEC Notes on it, but I only have a% : > >slightly outdated version handy.r : > E : > The last DEC Notes kit is 2.5A from 1993.  Is that what you have?n :  : Yupp!fF : A real pity that DEC stopped developing DEC Notes - it's a very nice
 : product. :e" : Thanks, I'll install this one... :hD There was a NetNotes product from OS Technologies that was patternedC after DEC Notes. A VMS system running DEC Notes could be a NetNotesIE client. DEC was using NetNotes on Wintel boxes for some internal DEC b Notes conferences.  0   http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm#progeny  L   "NetNotes, a client-server conferencing system designed as an improvement G    on DEC Notes. It is a product of OS TECHnologies Corp. of Townsend,  L    Massachusetts. An add-on product called WebNotes makes a NetNotes server *    accessible through the World Wide Web."  E OS TECHnologies was purchased by Spyglass who merged with OpenTV, and @ NetNotes/WebNotes seemed to have gone to the software bone yard.    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:59:15 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>t* Subject: Re: DEC Notes available, someone?K Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111458230.10600-100000@firewall.freddym.org>n   Hi!s  	 > > Yupp!tH > > A real pity that DEC stopped developing DEC Notes - it's a very nice > > product. > M > Yes, it is nice.  Out of curiosity, what would you like to see added to it?   . A NNTP <--> DEC Notes Gateway would be cool...  I > There's a Notes-to-Web converter around somewhere, likely on one of thepH > freeware CDs.  I don't know if it's read-only, or if you can use it to > post and reply to notes.  G I know the gateway program (at least I know one), and this one can poste articles, too.  
 Best Regards,b 	Freddyr   -- tN Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================D  Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more I  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOSh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:31:42 -0400 , From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com>* Subject: Re: DEC Notes available, someone?8 Message-ID: <h83pktohgm23b6dqecghpq7pnv6k50h6h3@4ax.com>  @ On 11 Jul 2001 13:58:15 GMT, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) wrote:  E >There was a NetNotes product from OS Technologies that was patternedjD >after DEC Notes. A VMS system running DEC Notes could be a NetNotesF >client. DEC was using NetNotes on Wintel boxes for some internal DEC  >Notes conferences.6  E Yes, but I understand that it is no longer supported.  Most of us whoyD use Windows boxes use an internally written NT Notes client which isD very nice.  I don't know if it can be released externally - I'll askD the author.  Someone also recently developed a Notes SERVER that ranE on Windows, but he left the company and I don't think it was finished  off.    - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)a Fortran Engineeringd* High-Performance Technical Computing Group& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:23:37 GMT.& From: dorenat@mailandnewsdot.com (Bob) Subject: Re: emacs: Message-ID: <Xns90DB564692E81gneissmailroom@63.210.103.21>  * "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in 4 <8iE27.212359$WB1.31292816@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>: This version works for me: b "MicroEmacs") http://members.nbci.com/uemacs/index.htmlo    J >We had a programmer ask us to install EMACS on our Alpha 2100/ VMS 7.2-1. >DF >We located  [emacsv1928] on the VMS Freeware CD,  but it talked about" >loading it on VMS V4.1 and later.C >Elsewher (in  [.etc]machines.;) it said that the Alpha CPU was noteJ >supported, but it was hoped to have Alpha support in version 19.29   DoesG >anyone know where I can get a good copy of emacs for current VMS alpha ; >systems?  Free would be good, but inexpensive might be ok.f >t >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:24:01 -07002! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: RE: emacs9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEEPCPAA.tom@kednos.com>i  L well I have 19.28 running on an alpha running 6.2, but I don't know where we got it.s  J Another possibility is to use a later version like 20.7 running on a PC or some flavour ofy= unix, because it can certainly open files across your networko   > -----Original Message-----/ > From: Bob [mailto:dorenat@mailandnewsdot.com]s( > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:24 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: emacs >t >a+ > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote ind6 > <8iE27.212359$WB1.31292816@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>: > This version works for me: > "MicroEmacs"+ > http://members.nbci.com/uemacs/index.html  >  >tL > >We had a programmer ask us to install EMACS on our Alpha 2100/ VMS 7.2-1. > >bH > >We located  [emacsv1928] on the VMS Freeware CD,  but it talked about$ > >loading it on VMS V4.1 and later.E > >Elsewher (in  [.etc]machines.;) it said that the Alpha CPU was notcL > >supported, but it was hoped to have Alpha support in version 19.29   DoesI > >anyone know where I can get a good copy of emacs for current VMS alphaa= > >systems?  Free would be good, but inexpensive might be ok.l > >I > >  > >s >x >i   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 17:56:15 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)m Subject: RE: emacs! Message-ID: <7RtA0Sa19s2U@gaelic>f  : In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEEPCPAA.tom@kednos.com>, # Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:sN > well I have 19.28 running on an alpha running 6.2, but I don't know where we	 > got it.N > L > Another possibility is to use a later version like 20.7 running on a PC or > some flavour ofu? > unix, because it can certainly open files across your network)  E I have an Emacs distribution i was able to build on Alpha VMS at url:m  6 ftp://ftp2.cnam.fr/decwindows/emacs-19_28-19950919.zip  J It's the original distribution from Richard Levitte's work (VMS port). TheH build is not easy and an old C compiler is better (DEC C 5.0 or 5.2 if I remember well).   F The are other nice editors under X on VMS, take a look at Nedit at the- DECwindows Archive into Text Editors section:0  ) http://www2.dev.ath.cena.fr/ftp/text.htmlD  4 There is also a vi clone (but it's not an editor :-)   Patricks --O ===============================================================================aO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)-4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:12:54 -0700$ From: ewilts@mediaone.net (Ed wilts)( Subject: Re: Experience with EMC storage= Message-ID: <e12df3dd.0107110912.4e0bb5a8@posting.google.com>e  V Koloth <koloth@telocity.com> wrote in message news:<3B4AA857.D79F518A@telocity.com>...N > I was asking about using mirroring on the HSG80s not the HSJ50.  The HSG80's4 > have mirrored cache as well as external batteries. > O > Do these features of the HSG80 make it reliable enough that people would justhO > use mirroring on the HSG80 versus Host Base Volume shadowing across two HSG80w > sets?b  A No.  I have run across a case where a specific drive failure willcA cause the SCSI bus to hang, and the DEC hardware support folks insB Colorado Springs who got my drive verified it.  Simply put, you'reF toast with this drive.  The first controller found the hung bus, triedD to reset it, couldn't, so it reset itself, failing all drives to theD second controller.  Repeat the problem.  You've now got ping-pongingD controllers and have disabled an entire controller pair because of a single bad drive.C  ? I have seen another case where the controllers disagreed on therF membership of a raidset.  Neither controller had failed, but the rightE combination of drives had failed that it confused the controllers and E there are no options other than to restore the raidset from backups. o? The HSJ-50s have external batteries but not mirrored cache, buto; mirrored cache would not have helped - no cache had failed!,  ? In both of these cases, the engineers I talked to said that theoF problems were rare, but that I wasn't the only person to see them.  InD both cases they said the problem *would not be fixed*.  That doesn't> mean they didn't fix them during the HSG80 design and software> updates, but then you don't know for sure and you could have a surprise down the road.o  A All that said, some people feel the controller redundancy is goodoF enough.  I also worked at a site where they didn't even have redundantD controllers and thought that that was good enough.  Some of the dataB wasn't even shadowed, since shadowing was deemed "too expensive". E It's a business decision that you'll have to trade off with the riskse
 and costs.   Cheers,r	    .../Ed    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:12:53 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: exploitable buffer overflows in VMS possible?+ Message-ID: <9ihmt5$fjv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>o  ) In article <3B4B6623.B03C8D02@gtech.com>,g@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> t. |> I thougth noexe was an ignored attribute !? |>     Apparently!!   bill   -- DJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:51:26 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f Subject: Re: FreeVMS2 Message-ID: <mC_27.559$rc5.39712@news.cpqcorp.net>  7 Great.  There is this DECwindows transport code...  ;-)f      I Monty Brandenberg wrote in message <3B4B9B2B.5E82DFC2@ne.mediaone.net>...6 >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:n >>6 >> Monty!  You wanna come back & help port to Itanium? >> >n  >Sure, but it'll cost ya.... :-) >> >--eI >Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB,a Inc.G >mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Boxe 426188B >mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA
 02142-0021
 >617.864.6907h   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:46:27 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)a Subject: Re: FUD3 Message-ID: <Gdys96qBZBgo@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  s In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106260906170.5295-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:s+ > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Dean Woodward wrote: @ >> Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingD >> to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you're( >> all doing his job for him, as usual.  > C > Well stated. This newsgroup benefits Sun, et al, far more than it) > benefits Compaq and VMS.  L Perhaps that's because Compaq is doing more to help Sun et al and Intel thanF it's doing to help itself or any of the assets it bought from digital.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:53:59 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)- Subject: Re: FUD3 Message-ID: <6UcEQILloPsD@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  X In article <3B396846.7F2786B3@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:, > Maybe it's "Shannon Knows Commoditization"  F Or Shannon Knows Capellas. His commentary the past few weeks certainlyI sounds more like "party line" than it does "not authorized by, affiliatedcI with, or endorsed by". It almost reminds me of the kind of commentary you@4 read in "Stereo Review"; straight vendor propiganda.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:00:06 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)s Subject: Re: FUD3 Message-ID: <og0xk5g9psTM@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  k In article <OF42A73B4F.2E7BE924-ON80256A78.00440329@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:IL > Calm down Aaron.  At some point _everybody_ would be surprised, except theF > people that made the decision and the person that thought of it as a! > possibility in the first place.    OLE!  F It could have been handled the same way as the VAX to ALpha migration:  L 1) Announce now that VMS, Tru64, NSK would be ported to IA64. Continue Alpha$ as competing alternate archetecture.  J 2) 5 years after IA64/VMS et all are ESTABLISHED TECHNOLOGY, *IF* Alpha isH dwindling in sales and performance, announce end of life for Alpha a few years down the road.  K Where do you think Alpha, VMS, Tru64, and DEC/Cpq would be today if in 1990oJ digital had announced a new 64 bit processor was being developed, and thatK VAX development was ending and you HAD to port to the new chip immediately.l8 And then that new chip was several years late to market.  L Announcing a port to IA64 could have been great news for the installed base.K Coupling it with killing the current processor before its replacement is ansK established product is ultimate stupidity. The Q have killed the goose that  laid the golden egg.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:04:53 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)m& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS3 Message-ID: <Efx2A6CdQnHn@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  f In article <3B381520.B55B16E@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> writes: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  CG >> Did anywhere in my note I indicate otherwise?  I'll repeat, "Our VAX-M >> customers are important to us".  I would expect us to provide "support VMSzC >> on the VAX "through the year 2010" with "preventive, performancee* >> optimization, and remedial services."". > C >   Through some third-party organization like Computer Associates?o  L Isn't posting that company name to this newsgroup the equivalent of invoking
 Godwin's law?i  < THey've screwed us 3 (almost 4) times already. No thank you!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:24:06 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> Subject: Re: Hobbyists5 Message-ID: <20010711092406.9932.qmail@nym.alias.net>e  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  G On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:s >Michael Austin wrote: >> PJ >> I have 2 2100's (200mhz and a 2 CPU 275mhz) both running OpenVMS 7.2-1.E >> Both with Apache and Perl/Mod_Perl   works really great!  With DSLaG >> (using a Linksys Router/Hub plus an 8-port hub with 6 systems on thewF >> network.  Now If I couldonly get the ISP to provide static PPPoE IP
 >> addresses.- >-H >From hanging out over in comp.dcom.xdsl, I've learned about dynamic DNSE >services. All you need is a way to acquire your "leased" IP address,0G >then you send an update to a service that will serve your name/addressm	 >via DNS.  >s3 >Not sure how you would do that from VMS, though...3  I I use cjb.net to maintain DNS entries for my leased address. This is doneaJ with a short Perl script that connects to a CGI script. The cjb.net serverF detects the IP I connect from and updates my DNS entries to that. This; allows me to access my 2100 system when I'm away from home.c  . Various tools to do the update can be found at$ http://www.cjb.net/cgi-bin/dynip.cgi   Hope this is of help.o     Doc. - --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----e Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBO0uI8sriC3SGiziTAQFe6AgAiB7NzTBFYNc42cv4pYJt87xzOTBJlTvE@ Tvye/xsk2sMRFC5wLdoCk7ZHn2KnCLQ5Tn7y2jE1+dZKwdkkyZyaGPQCiZzZlAGc@ HfHi1tPPnm42rzz4UL31TvKR7ghYts5c0ZK+dLxSFS3R1PJcf2O7zYuCJMlW6jn6@ fmxBaee1pOrUnI0zGcV7J00OuzbX1wxTlMIDsJz7CwV+O45KtUYxzt+CpCRKQjn6@ 9AvLJNP5rsGPSwQ9Wlfys47jdaHunT4B7eFIeJemP5jmyHJLJGaAM71/U3vkEsgp8 dgm4XcDIa8ItGZXbSW4PDhlTW+WW2KBxC9t6DAcFK4PVvndJmJ7pUg== =epZ0n -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----e   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:44:41 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)V Subject: Re: Hobbyists! Message-ID: <loq4qrpW6kZA@gaelic>E  G At home, I host a DS10/466 256Mb RAM, Elsa Gloria, Ensoniq sound card, nK 3x9 Gb internally + 3x2Gb externally (BA353) + TZ86 table top and DAT DDS3 iM (VMS 7.2-1), also an Alphastation 255/233 192 Mb RAM, 3 Gb internally + 3 Gb  I externally (BA353) plus TZ30 (VMS 7.1-1H1) and an old VAXstation 4000-60 aK 56 Mb RAM, 2 Gb internal (VMS 6.2). Plus some Windows Peecees and HP color  F printer, all of them on an 8 port 10/100 Mb Ethernet Switch (Netgear) A + 8 port 10 Mbs Ethernet Hub. Mix of Cat 5 10base T and 10base 2 e thin coax cabling.  H The 255 had now a Plextor 32x CDROM  (the standard one is crap, two were broken in 2 years).a  < Internet acces via an RTC router firewall (33.6 Kbs Modem).   - Also a Nikon 35mm film scanner (Coolscan II) s   Patrick   C In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010710211405.00af1d80@ntbsod.psccos.com>, l' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:   eH > AlphaStation 200 4/233, 9gb internal, RRD45, 4gb external, 192mb (VMS)J > VAXstation 4000 VLC, 1gb internal, 24mb memory, RRD40 (headed for Ebay!)L > 2x Alpha Multia on a pizza box, 2x2gb, 64mb memory (1 VMS, 1 Digital UNIX)I > VAXstation 4000 Model 60,  2x4gb,1x2gb, 52mb memory, TK50, TLZ07, RRD42C > K > All of this on a home network with 3 PC's, 1 laptop and 2 networked laser : > printers, using an ISDN router for outside connectivity. [...] " > Jason O'Donnell wrote in message6 >><5c8ffd05.0107092238.4ae55a50@posting.google.com>... >> >G >> >It seems that there are several OpenVMS Hobbyists in this group.  I=D >> >was just curious what systems people have in their homes runningG >> >OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  As soon as I get things organized, I will + >> >have a 2100A RM and and a 2000 at home.r    --O ===============================================================================-O pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)n4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:19:22 GMTi1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>n Subject: Re: Hobbyists2 Message-ID: <3B4C614B.A1D31158@clarityconnect.com>   Personal systems2 	3x Multia each w/ diff memory and disks VMS & RH  	PC running RH 7.0 	PC running W98n& 	PC running DOS (son learning C on it)  $ Work systems supplied by the company- 	AS255 various versions of VMS, UNIX & RH 6.2o# 	VS4000/VLC various versions of VMSp 	PC NT 4.0 soon to be W2Ks   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:47:08 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>. Subject: Re: Hobbyists' Message-ID: <3B4C66EC.6E6FCDBD@fsi.net>e   Dan O'Reilly wrote:x > [snip]  > 2x Alpha Multia on a pizza box  C Just had a wild thought: what would be the world's smallest OpenVMS8 cluster?  C Maybe two Alpha Multias connected to a pizza box and a 10BaseT hub?.  ? Maybe two Alpha SBCs with on-board SCSI and Ethernet in a PCIMGoG backplane housed in a mini-ATX case with shared SCSI disk and a network  hub?   How small could you get it?g   (Geez! I Gotta get a life!)M   --   David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.u   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:59:03 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>- Subject: Re: HobbyistsK Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111556340.10869-100000@firewall.freddym.org>n   Hi,M  E > Just had a wild thought: what would be the world's smallest OpenVMS.
 > cluster? > E > Maybe two Alpha Multias connected to a pizza box and a 10BaseT hub?w > A > Maybe two Alpha SBCs with on-board SCSI and Ethernet in a PCIMGmI > backplane housed in a mini-ATX case with shared SCSI disk and a network0 > hub?  D Would be a small cluster - but if you're speaking about the smallestB andmost powerful cluster, you should consider taking a few DS10Ls.A And IIRC the Multias were not able to run OpenVMS out-of-the-box.d! You needed a patch for OpenVMS...p   > How small could you get it?a  ; Not a long time ago, I've seen some VAX 4000s very small :(   
 Best Regards,s 	Freddyo   -- gN Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================D  Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much moreNI  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOSI   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2001 15:09:17 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Hobbyists+ Message-ID: <9ihq6t$hdh$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>n  @ Well, mys stuff is split between home and the lab next door, but7 here's a list.  Not all of it running VMS however.  :-)   	 2 MVax-IIt 2 MVax-3600. 2 VS3100# 3 VAX-4000 (and another on the way)t 1 AS2100 1 PDP-11/83n 1 PDP-11/23  1 PDP-11/24k 4 PDP-11/44T  6 Numerous peripherals and spare parts.  Home network is7 via Cable Modem and if I ever get the free time will bee$ a tunneled subnet of the department.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   =   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:34:50 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Hobbyists& Message-ID: <3B4C721A.C1EF2D7@fsi.net>   Freddy Meerwaldt wrote:P >  > Hi,  > G > > Just had a wild thought: what would be the world's smallest OpenVMSA > > cluster? > >/G > > Maybe two Alpha Multias connected to a pizza box and a 10BaseT hub?m > >/C > > Maybe two Alpha SBCs with on-board SCSI and Ethernet in a PCIMG=K > > backplane housed in a mini-ATX case with shared SCSI disk and a network- > > hub? > F > Would be a small cluster - but if you're speaking about the smallestD > andmost powerful cluster, you should consider taking a few DS10Ls.C > And IIRC the Multias were not able to run OpenVMS out-of-the-box.># > You needed a patch for OpenVMS...5  3 See: http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/multia.htmli   -- h David J. DachteraJ dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.S   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:59:36 -0500r+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>, Subject: RE: HobbyistsL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2056@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   Ok, I'll bite.   Here's what I have right now:o   Node		Configuration   D SHOGUN	VAXStation 3100, 12M RAM, 360M system disk, 640M external HD,! external TK50, RRD40 CD, VMS 7.2.s  B ICE9		VAXStation 2000, 6M RAM(?), RD54 system disk, external RD54, external TK50, VMS 5.5.b  ? HOPE		MicroVAX 2000, 6M RAM(?), 40M system disk, hacked-up teac  floppy, VMS 5.5.  A ANGUS		VAXStation 3200, 16M RAM, RD54 system disk, TK50, VMS 5.5.e  B CANDY		Almighty MicroVAX II, ... it has some ram.  Haven't checked7 capacity yet. :), RD54 system disk, TK50, MicroVMS 4.7.e  D NONAME	MicroVAX 3100, unknown configuration.  Haven't set it up yet.  3 I also have a Multia that needs a good bit of work.h   Regards,   Chrisp  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developere Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 18:17:40 +0200  From: Cthulhu <cthulhu@rlyeh.it> Subject: Re: Hobbyists( Message-ID: <9ihu74$np$1@kadath.deep.it>  2 Jason O'Donnell <jason_odonnell@erinet.com> wrote:  B > was just curious what systems people have in their homes runningE > OpenVMS.  Any GS series?  As soon as I get things organized, I will   ' One MicroVAX-II/GPX (Irem), OpenVMS 6.1 $ One VAX 4000-300 (Leng), OpenVMS 7.29 One VAXstation 3100 Model Unknown (Hogwarts), OpenVMS 7.2i  D And then there is the MicroVAX 3400 located in a CED (www.rlyeh.it),A which came back on the net today when I changed that blowed fuse,o OpenVMS 7.2.   Sorry, no AXPs around there. :)o   	missingly,s
 	  Cthulhu   -- ?  H        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!$ 		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:52:18 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris) Subject: Re: Hobbyists< Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0107110852.ebe5d70@posting.google.com>  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3B4C66EC.6E6FCDBD@fsi.net>...E > Just had a wild thought: what would be the world's smallest OpenVMSt
 > cluster? > E > Maybe two Alpha Multias connected to a pizza box and a 10BaseT hub?e  - Forget the hub -- use a cross-over cable. :-)c  F Smallest cluster I've heard of was two Tadpole Alpha laptops connectedE by a cross-over cable on an airline flight.  (This cluster also holdsa the altitude record.)t  C But even smaller than that would be two Charon-VAX instances on theB8 same laptop, connected by SRI's in-memory LAN emulation.C ------------------------------------------------------------------- C Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on: C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O-   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:08:16 +0000 (UTC)p> From: Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it (Napolitano Gennaro)9 Subject: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS serverSB Message-ID: <23DC1A5C6E91D411BCD300508B6573E80147A3C1@SEMARMN0006>   Hi all  K Please can somebody tell me, or at least point me to the right site, how to?> configure an OpenVMS machine acting as DTSS server to get time+ syncronization fron an external NTP server?e   Thanks a lot in advanceh  = P.S.: Please can you cc your response to my personal address?e       -- t Posted from [213.255.32.100] i1 via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:24:39 -0700r! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>i= Subject: RE: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS server99 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEFGCPAA.tom@kednos.com>(  % Under tcpip5.1 there is an NTP serverD   > -----Original Message-----G > From: Napolitano Gennaro [mailto:Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it]c( > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:08 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como; > Subject: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS serverw >  >  > Hi all > A > Please can somebody tell me, or at least point me to the right c > site, how to@ > configure an OpenVMS machine acting as DTSS server to get time- > syncronization fron an external NTP server?. >  > Thanks a lot in advance- > ? > P.S.: Please can you cc your response to my personal address?s >  >  >  > --   > Posted from [213.255.32.100] g3 > via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORGa >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:46:26 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)= Subject: Re: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS serveraL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1107011146260001@user-2ive70a.dialup.mindspring.com>  B In article <23DC1A5C6E91D411BCD300508B6573E80147A3C1@SEMARMN0006>,? Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it (Napolitano Gennaro) wrote:N   > Hi all > M > Please can somebody tell me, or at least point me to the right site, how toa@ > configure an OpenVMS machine acting as DTSS server to get time- > syncronization fron an external NTP server?o  F There was an old example program to do this, but it was withdrawn fromE recent VMS releases, supposedly because it had bugs.  The program waseI originally for VAX C, but I was able to build it using DEC C.  We've used J it for several years.  If there are bugs, they either haven't shown up, or/ make so little difference we haven't noticed.  i  I If you have a VMS VAX 7.1 CD (or probably earlier) look in SYS$EXAMPLES. gH I think there's a DTSS subdirectory, and the example programs are there.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:25:30 GMT-2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)= Subject: Re: How to configure an NTP server for a DTSS serverr2 Message-ID: <_5%27.565$rc5.39705@news.cpqcorp.net>   In article <23DC1A5C6E91D411BCD300508B6573E80147A3C1@SEMARMN0006>, Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it (Napolitano Gennaro) writes:d  L :Please can somebody tell me, or at least point me to the right site, how to? :configure an OpenVMS machine acting as DTSS server to get timex, :syncronization fron an external NTP server?  F   The old mechanism -- a code example -- provided by DTSS and used to F   acquire time from an NTP time base was found very buggy, based on anE   old NTP version, and was removed from the OpenVMS DECnet-Plus kits  J   some time ago.  (The example was DTSS$NTP_PROVIDER.C and DTSSPROVIDER.H.F   On the DECnet-Plus Tru64 UNIX kits, look in /usr/examples/dtss/.  OnG   the (older) OpenVMS kits, look in SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.DTSS].)e  I   Accordingly, I'd recommend disabling DTSS and using NTP -- with OpenVMSqG   V7.3 and later, we have fully integrated DTSS, NTP, C, and such with JH   the OpenVMS time and TDF management -- see the OpenVMS FAQ for details   on time and time-keeping.   > :P.S.: Please can you cc your response to my personal address?     Ask here, get an answer here.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:16:11 +0100e0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B4C276B.6779B817@uk.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > I > "andrew harrison" <ah13473_nospam@remove_this.sun.com> wrote in message / > news:3B45A85E.F049F0E9@remove_this.sun.com...  > >p > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > M > > > "andrew harrison" <ah13473_nospam@remove_this.sun.com> wrote in messageo3 > > > news:3B458E44.6465BCB4@remove_this.sun.com...n > > >b	 > > > ...i > > >e > > > > I disagree,  > > > I > > > You're of course free to disagree, but customers don't seem to:  mya > vagueuI > > > recollection is that Wildfires did the better part of $1 billion inG
 > businessM > > > during the less-than-2/3 of last year they were available, despite somed > > > problems meeting demand. > >LG > > Humm that isn't what IDC's latest quarterly breakdown of the serverz > > market shows at all. > J > Hardly surprising, since the latest quarter didn't fall in the year 2000 > last time I checked. >  > >9= > > In the 100K to 1 million mark Compaq were 4th behind Sun, ; > > HP and IBM, Compaqs revenues went down 4% Sun and IBM's+ > > both grew. > I > Another response (limited to comp.os.vms) indicated that HP's also went:I > down, which you conveniently ignored above.  And since you neglected to6I > state the magnitude of the Sun and IBM increases, we don't know whetherxL > Alpha's change in acceptance was significant or marginal (though I'd guessC > that the new IBM 8-CPU server may have made a noticeable impact).) >   ? No HP's revenues were also down they just were not as far down G? as Compaqs. Its all relative, if you consistently underperform r= when compared with the rest of the market then you obviously e have a problem.   I > The fact remains that Alpha sales remained significant despite Compaq's L > continuing *complete* neglect of one of the two major operating systems onK > the platform (VMS, which seems to constitute something like half of Alpha)D > business, though hard figures are difficult to come by).  The mainM > impediment to Alpha - and GS - sales is Compaq's indifferent support of theyG > platform (especially as contrasted with the vigor of its Intel-system % > marketing), not memory performance.s >   A I don't disagree with you, Alpha sales are significant, but they x@ are most significant to Compaq, they are much less important in  the market they sell into. e  @ By this I mean that Compaq's high margin business is a minority A player in its target markets. This is a serious issue for Compaq  > and could be one reason why they are switching to IA-64 to try' to surf the coat tails of HP and Intel.>   Regards1 Andrew Harrison@ Enterprise IT Architect>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:47:20 +0100=0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B4C3CC8.48887063@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Andrew, Andrew ..0 > < > You stated the total market - please re-read your posting. > : > >>>  In the first quarter this year everyone has taken a2 > > beating but Compaq more than everyone else the2 > > total market declined by 2% but Compaq led the > > way with a 6% decline.>>>  > 8 > I simply pointed out the inaccuarcy of this statement. > M > Regardless, everyone can spin analyst numbers to meet the goal they want toG
 > achieve. >   1 Since this newsgroup concentrates on OpenVMS and /2 Alpha don't you think that using the numbers that 1 actually refer to OpenVMS/Alpha revenues and the =/ market they compete in might have been a better,5 choice than using numbers that consist predominantly   of Wintel boxes.    3 I chose the former, you chose the latter what does j
 that say ????s  4 > >>> Hum, care to comment on a business model where2 > revenues are increasing in your high volume very7 > low margin business while they are decreasing in your $ > lower volume high margin units.<<< > N > Sure, not a good one to be in. Compaq is certainly not following that model,G > so who is that you are referring to that is following this strategy ?  >   9 Oh come on Kerry try to do better. Or ar you saying that k4 Wintel boxes that make up the vast majority of your " revenues are in fact high margin.    Regardso Andrew Harrisonw Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:50:12 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B4C3D74.F659D885@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Greg,A > I > re: OPS in a box .. I think Andrew is trying to state somehow that a HWsL > partitioned system using separate OS's within the same system (and OPS) isM > somehow not a valid benchmark. His "Customer complexity" arguments refer toiM > setting up Oracle Parallel Server (which any good Oracle DBA can do) and inwM > fine tuning the app to run in a NUMA environment (which any Customer with a- > NUMA server needs to do).J >   B No I am not, it is allowed by the rules for TPC-C. I am objecting 9 to the idea which you seem to sunscribe to which is that  ; Cluster TPC-C and single system non clustered TPC-C results ; are in any way comparable they are not for all the reasons g% I have covered in detail in the past.o  I > As most here are aware, you can scale up (big SMP) or you can scale outyL > (cluster approach). Both have merit in different application environments. > K > Given that one of the reasons for doing HW partitioned systems is to haveHB > separate OS environments, but one single view of the data, imho,L > illustrating the overall performance one can get out of a single system is > fine.l > M > This is exactly what Customers doing server consolidation today are lookingd > for. > F > [hopefully, we can avoid another "what is a real mans TPC benchmark" > discussion.. ] > 
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultante > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Servicest > Voice: 613-592-4660u > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Greg Pfister [mailto:pfister@us.ibm.com] > Sent: July 6, 2001 12:06 PMf > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World >  > andrew harrison wrote: > [snip]? > > Designing a memory subsystem that had poorer memory latency:? > > than a 4 year old Origin 2000 was hardly something that you=  > > can blame on the marketeers. > >=C > > > BTW, from what I also hear, SUN is having similar engineeringe > difficultiesN > > > making large scale USIII system work. Remeber those old quotes about theH > > > systems scaling to 1000 processors etc? Where are the systems? Oh, > right,? > > > of course you can cluster lots of small ones together ;-)r > > >l > >n9 > > All the major systems vendors have suffered delays in < > > introducing their latest high end systems. The SuperDome; > > was late, the SunFires were late and WildFire was late.l > @ > Careful with that "all." I don't think IBM's been late yet. At> > least not recently, since TPTB finally decided that the Un*x) > market was something worth going after.  > : > > The problem for WildFire is that it was late but  when3 > > it was announced it wasn't competitive with the < > > previous generation of servers from Compaqs competitors. > >l7 > > It recently reached the dizzy heights of 230,000 on 4 > > TPC-C, using the latest 1001 Mhz CPU's, a result7 > > puts it just ahead of the IBM P680, a machine thats ) > > just about to be replaced by Regatta.  > >d3 > > When Rob Young started his WildFire boosting in 4 > > the dark and dim past initial numbers of 200,0004 > > were being bandied about, I can only assume that4 > > this number was a design goal that was leaked to1 > > Rob (unless he made it up). The fact that thea0 > > initial numbers came out way lower than that1 > > and then needed OPS in a box tends to suggestu( > > that they missed their design goals. > C > Do you know for a fact that the OPS-in-a-box solution was used iniC > Wildfire? That's often rather difficult to tell from official TPCd> > disclosures. If it was used, it of course makes the high TPC6 > results rather meaningless (in my personal opinion). >  > Greg Pfister   -- n Andrew Harrisonw Enterprise IT ArchitectM   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:51:31 +0100f0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B4C3DC3.98961699@uk.sun.com>   Greg Pfister wrote:i >  > andrew harrison wrote: > [snip]? > > Designing a memory subsystem that had poorer memory latencyV? > > than a 4 year old Origin 2000 was hardly something that youp  > > can blame on the marketeers. > >gP > > > BTW, from what I also hear, SUN is having similar engineering difficultiesN > > > making large scale USIII system work. Remeber those old quotes about theO > > > systems scaling to 1000 processors etc? Where are the systems? Oh, right,m? > > > of course you can cluster lots of small ones together ;-)9 > > >2 > >B9 > > All the major systems vendors have suffered delays ins< > > introducing their latest high end systems. The SuperDome; > > was late, the SunFires were late and WildFire was late.x > @ > Careful with that "all." I don't think IBM's been late yet. At> > least not recently, since TPTB finally decided that the Un*x) > market was something worth going after.s > : > > The problem for WildFire is that it was late but  when3 > > it was announced it wasn't competitive with theA< > > previous generation of servers from Compaqs competitors. > >y7 > > It recently reached the dizzy heights of 230,000 onE4 > > TPC-C, using the latest 1001 Mhz CPU's, a result7 > > puts it just ahead of the IBM P680, a machine thats ) > > just about to be replaced by Regatta.  > >,3 > > When Rob Young started his WildFire boosting inp4 > > the dark and dim past initial numbers of 200,0004 > > were being bandied about, I can only assume that4 > > this number was a design goal that was leaked to1 > > Rob (unless he made it up). The fact that theg0 > > initial numbers came out way lower than that1 > > and then needed OPS in a box tends to suggestt( > > that they missed their design goals. > C > Do you know for a fact that the OPS-in-a-box solution was used iniC > Wildfire? That's often rather difficult to tell from official TPC0> > disclosures. If it was used, it of course makes the high TPC6 > results rather meaningless (in my personal opinion). >   8 It was used for the previous WildFire numbers, I havn't 8 waded through the full disclosure for the latest result : but the costs do appear to include the appropriate Oracle 	 licenses.    Regardsg Andrew Harrisonu Enterprise IT Architectw   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 02:30:32 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews)+ Subject: Re: Increasing VT420 luminosity...o= Message-ID: <a720d610.0107110130.50072a3a@posting.google.com>.  7 kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) wrote in message a= > > Im my job I have any VT420  terminals, with 10 years old.D6 > > Is there any way to increase yours luminosity ?=20D > There are some adjustable trim pots on the board inside.  Be very C > careful when adjusting them, it is best to use a wood or plastic  D > stick to do the adjustment.  There aren't many of these adjustmentE > pots, and I think they are marked, but if not trial and error will lA > quickly reveal which one does brightness, contrast, etc.  I've n? > done it dozens of times and only been knocked on my rump oncee; > (monitor started to slide and I grabbed the wrong place).-  B To add to this, the 420's were put together by Philips. These wereA notorious for being too dim and also going up in a puff of smoke.eF There was a couple of FCOs to fix this but some may have got away. OneC was to tweak the pot (third one along nearest back IIRC), second toCD replace the tube connector. I think it only had contacts on one sideC of the pins, the replacement had two, one each side. You may notice - the brown heat markings around the connector!M  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comm   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:42:29 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) $ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment3 Message-ID: <fKYFBSfPyuci@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  o In article <0WRC4r1y+Qtz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:-> > Program specific hints are generally not _required_ by VEST,? > they just improve performance.  The only case I have heard ofg? > that violates this generality is the TECO text editor that isO@ > part of VMS itself.  TECO was written in VAX Assembly language? > (Macro-32) and the weird coding tricks it used confounded theo> > Macro-32 Compiler for Alpha.  Some parts of it also were notA > even handled properly by VEST (in particular, deciding what wasHA > code and what was data), so hints had to be provided to achieve  > correctness.  E IIRC TECO-32 came about from a TECO macro that translated MACRO-11 to H MACRO-32, which was written specifically to port TECO from CompatibilityL mode to native mode on the MicroVAX. An old friend of mine, Rick Murphy, did the port...n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:17:11 +0100d' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>O$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment2 Message-ID: <110720011817116743%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  > In article <fKYFBSfPyuci@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Bob Kaplow/ <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote:P     > G > IIRC TECO-32 came about from a TECO macro that translated MACRO-11 to.J > MACRO-32, which was written specifically to port TECO from CompatibilityN > mode to native mode on the MicroVAX. An old friend of mine, Rick Murphy, did
 > the port...   G C'mon. Teco's good, but not *that* good. I've looked at snippets of thehG source for both. Surely Rick Murphy never did it in one glorious macro?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:18:52 -0500p+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> $ Subject: RE: Intel/Alpha announcmentL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2057@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----. > From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars  G > IIRC TECO-32 came about from a TECO macro that translated MACRO-11 toi= > MACRO-32, which was written specifically to port TECO from S > Compatibility > > mode to native mode on the MicroVAX. An old friend of mine,  > Rick Murphy, did
 > the port...d  L So if I read this thread correctly, we have TECO originally being written inL MACRO-11, later translated to MACRO-32 using _itself_ as the translator, andK then, the MACRO-32 being lost (or hopeless to compile on an Alpha?), ported5- to Alpha with VEST and some special trickery?3  @ Maybe it should be re-written in something of a higher level. :)   Regards,   Chris(  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developers Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  'S   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:39:09 +0100 ' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>e$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment2 Message-ID: <110720011839096013%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  
 In articleA <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2057@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,o, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:   > > -----Original Message-----0 > > From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars > I > > IIRC TECO-32 came about from a TECO macro that translated MACRO-11 toT? > > MACRO-32, which was written specifically to port TECO from T > > Compatibility @ > > mode to native mode on the MicroVAX. An old friend of mine,  > > Rick Murphy, did > > the port...g > N > So if I read this thread correctly, we have TECO originally being written inN > MACRO-11, later translated to MACRO-32 using _itself_ as the translator, andM > then, the MACRO-32 being lost (or hopeless to compile on an Alpha?), ported-/ > to Alpha with VEST and some special trickery?O > B > Maybe it should be re-written in something of a higher level. :) > " Higher level than teco? What pray?  F Seriously, one of the cuter parts of Teco is at startup. It parses itsF own command line in teco. Including the bit that answers 'Not War?' if# the command line were 'MAKE LOVE'. oE I can believe that part was hacked by a teco macro from .MAC to .MAR.-@ There are pages of .ASCIZ "... at the front of TECOINI.MAC.  and0 ditto.MAR Have I remembered that filename right?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:56:01 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br  Subject: InterSystems (Brazil)L Message-ID: <OF9827A2BE.4115B8CD-ON03256A86.005CE5DB@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  C InterSystems is making  investments in Brazil. I hope they can sell  some OpenVMS machines too !s   Martin ? Are you there ?   http://www.intersystems.com.br   Regards    FC   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 07:41:14 -0700- From: afeldman@gfigroup.com (Alan E. Feldman)i1 Subject: Re: Keystrokes for VT100/VT220 emulation.= Message-ID: <af1e4ce6.0107110641.2f019b2e@posting.google.com>w  q afeldman@gfigroup.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<af1e4ce6.0107101653.746b4b9@posting.google.com>... a > "Thys de Wet" <thys@it.sun.ac.za> wrote in message news:<9ies2r$10o7$1@news.adamastor.ac.za>...n > > O > > Is there a VMS command that will display the value of a key pressed? I need G > > to sort out some emulation stuff for use with the DEC Multinational  > > Character set. > > J > > If I press the Insert key i would like to see the following displayed:
 > > <ESC>[34xi > > or whatever the string is. [...]hE > Now, press ESC or Ctrl/[ (that's control-left-bracket) *once*, then F > press the key whose secret escape sequence you want to know. Voila'!G > The desired sequence appears! (It may well work in other editors -- IC > can't try that right now.) [...]i= Well, you said vt100/vt200 emulation in your subject, but DECeC Multinational Char set in the message. If you *are* emulating a VT,l9 you can double check your work quite easily (at least foriF EDT-definable keys) by using EDT HELP. Start an EDT session, press theF help key (normally PF2 for EDT), then press the keys you emulated. The? key you press is the heading for the help screen that comes up.    Disclaimer: JMHO   &-) Alan E. Feldmans afeldman&gfigroup.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:30:26 +0100s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>y Subject: Re: Memory Channel II8 Message-ID: <nrdoktsjt3mm22mtpaeo0j79432fc0n1hd@4ax.com>  3 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:27:54 -0500, arturo saavedrar! <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote:.  F >We run a pair of GS80s with memory channel.. and have problems duringL >reboots in which we bugcheck continuously until we reset both ports via theJ >mc_diag command from console.  Engineering is in the process of rewritingL >the driver for 7.2-1h1.  Part of our problem is that we are running without1 >a MC Hub which was recommended but not required.0  F Demand they provide you with a hub until the problem is fixed, Or justB buy one. They're not expensive as I recall. Well not compared to aB GS80. Or just throw away the MC and use a fast or Gigabit ethernetF link for cluster traffic. Will perform as well or better in almost all; cases according to the presentations at VMS technical days.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:36:39 GMT + From: Ryan Moore <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org>y Subject: Re: Memory Channel II= Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.31.0107110732170.21656-100000@jaipur>b  $ On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Hal Kuff wrote:A > In a powerpoint presentation on relative performance of ClusterlM > Interconnects for OpenVMS 7.3 the engineer mentions that the Memory ChannelhL > II driver for 7.2x had issues.....  Does anyone know how stable the driver > for 7.2-1H1 is?   H We've been using MC II in two separate clusters of 8400 series computersB with 7.2-1H1 for several months without any problems.  We recentlyI upgraded those clusters to use MC II and fibre channel in addition to thelG CI links that were already there.  We haven't been having any problems.e  I Of course, one cluster has 6 systems and another has 5, so we are using asG hub unlike some other responses to the list.  Specifically, we have twotH hubs with two MC controllers in every machine.  In testing we did, if anF MC path failed, the switchover time to the other path was well under a3 second, even with lots of I/O going on.  Very fast.a   -Ryanr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:09:47 -0500 0 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> Subject: RE: Memory Channel IIC Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHCEPBFAAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>8  H We thought about purchasing the hub for the dual gs80 config.  But we'veG been given the promise that the new driver should be ready really soon.y" "really" being the magical word ;)       -----Original Message-----, From: Alan Greig [mailto:a.greig@virgin.net]& Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:30 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh Subject: Re: Memory Channel II    3 On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:27:54 -0500, arturo saavedra(! <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote:s  F >We run a pair of GS80s with memory channel.. and have problems duringL >reboots in which we bugcheck continuously until we reset both ports via theJ >mc_diag command from console.  Engineering is in the process of rewritingL >the driver for 7.2-1h1.  Part of our problem is that we are running without1 >a MC Hub which was recommended but not required.c  F Demand they provide you with a hub until the problem is fixed, Or justB buy one. They're not expensive as I recall. Well not compared to aB GS80. Or just throw away the MC and use a fast or Gigabit ethernetF link for cluster traffic. Will perform as well or better in almost all; cases according to the presentations at VMS technical days.s     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:44:44 +0100k% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a Subject: Re: Memory Channel II8 Message-ID: <svsokt03dc9irdcnj8m8ri3p0dq1m26duq@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:09:47 -0500, arturo saavedra ! <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote:6  I >We thought about purchasing the hub for the dual gs80 config.  But we've-H >been given the promise that the new driver should be ready really soon.# >"really" being the magical word ;)o  E If the actual words were "real soon now" I'd look at other options :)w     -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 03:00:30 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews)7 Subject: Re: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment)n= Message-ID: <a720d610.0107110200.2f7a12f9@posting.google.com>s  { arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in message news:<MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHAENGFAAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>... G > We run a pair of GS80s with memory channel.. and have problems during M > reboots in which we bugcheck continuously until we reset both ports via thelK > mc_diag command from console.  Engineering is in the process of rewritingdM > the driver for 7.2-1h1.  Part of our problem is that we are running withoutw2 > a MC Hub which was recommended but not required.  F In a cluster involving ES40's, again without a hub (may be the issue?)= at VMS 7.1-2 we see the MC drop out from time to time, but itgE generally doesn't cause any grief because there is fast ethernet (twoa of) plus CI in the cluster.u  C Tru64 exclusively uses MC for clustering, so it's most likely not as9 hardware issue, but to feedback info from a Tru64 ItaniumhC presentation, they will have MC and Infiniband as supported clusterC interconnects.  F I would assume that VMS support for MC would be present in the ItaniumB architecture machines, hopefully with debugged MC driver software!  D I'm also speculating that Infiniband will be a supported VMS clusterC interconnect at or shortly after the Itanium VMS releases, and thiseE was hinted at back at a UK DECUS clustering event back in February. I F can't imagine it being 'backported' to Alpha systems. I'm increasinglyE of the opinion that all the clews (sic) were and have been around fortD a while, and that VMS will quite definitely move forwards on Itanium/ [in ways it couldn't under Alpha]. Vive la VMS!r  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:38:33 -0400 " From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@tessco.com>7 Subject: Re: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment) O Message-ID: <F959E889020440A7.1EEA83ACA6FAECFE.E6AA6BC324E47A42@lp.airnews.net>n  I     We have a MC2 Hub to deploy, if we proceed with MC2.... but I have toeJ admit the reports here and elsewhere make me a bit nervous.... anyone from/ engineering care to wade in? Is 7.3 any better?o    - "Nic Clews" <nclews@csc.com> wrote in messageh7 news:a720d610.0107110200.2f7a12f9@posting.google.com...p= > arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in messageI? news:<MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHAENGFAAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>... I > > We run a pair of GS80s with memory channel.. and have problems during K > > reboots in which we bugcheck continuously until we reset both ports viam the C > > mc_diag command from console.  Engineering is in the process of 	 rewritinglG > > the driver for 7.2-1h1.  Part of our problem is that we are runningi withouth4 > > a MC Hub which was recommended but not required. >sH > In a cluster involving ES40's, again without a hub (may be the issue?)? > at VMS 7.1-2 we see the MC drop out from time to time, but itfG > generally doesn't cause any grief because there is fast ethernet (two  > of) plus CI in the cluster.e > E > Tru64 exclusively uses MC for clustering, so it's most likely not aw; > hardware issue, but to feedback info from a Tru64 ItaniumpE > presentation, they will have MC and Infiniband as supported clusterE > interconnects. >eH > I would assume that VMS support for MC would be present in the ItaniumD > architecture machines, hopefully with debugged MC driver software! >hF > I'm also speculating that Infiniband will be a supported VMS clusterE > interconnect at or shortly after the Itanium VMS releases, and thisaG > was hinted at back at a UK DECUS clustering event back in February. I H > can't imagine it being 'backported' to Alpha systems. I'm increasinglyG > of the opinion that all the clews (sic) were and have been around for F > a while, and that VMS will quite definitely move forwards on Itanium1 > [in ways it couldn't under Alpha]. Vive la VMS!e >h* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:09:47 -0500e0 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>7 Subject: RE: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment) C Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHEEPBFAAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>o  K Seriously doubt the fix is in 7.3.. I'm sure the actual driver fix is beingeK written for 7.3 and will then be back-ported to previous OpenVMS versions..2     -----Original Message-----' From: Hal Kuff [mailto:kuff@tessco.com]T& Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:39 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn7 Subject: Re: Memory Channel II (and an Itanium comment)r      I     We have a MC2 Hub to deploy, if we proceed with MC2.... but I have to J admit the reports here and elsewhere make me a bit nervous.... anyone from/ engineering care to wade in? Is 7.3 any better?     - "Nic Clews" <nclews@csc.com> wrote in messagew7 news:a720d610.0107110200.2f7a12f9@posting.google.com...e= > arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in messagee? news:<MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHAENGFAAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>...dI > > We run a pair of GS80s with memory channel.. and have problems duringbK > > reboots in which we bugcheck continuously until we reset both ports viar thelC > > mc_diag command from console.  Engineering is in the process ofs	 rewritingoG > > the driver for 7.2-1h1.  Part of our problem is that we are running  withouto4 > > a MC Hub which was recommended but not required. >oH > In a cluster involving ES40's, again without a hub (may be the issue?)? > at VMS 7.1-2 we see the MC drop out from time to time, but iteG > generally doesn't cause any grief because there is fast ethernet (two  > of) plus CI in the cluster.t >ME > Tru64 exclusively uses MC for clustering, so it's most likely not a ; > hardware issue, but to feedback info from a Tru64 Itanium-E > presentation, they will have MC and Infiniband as supported clusterc > interconnects. >nH > I would assume that VMS support for MC would be present in the ItaniumD > architecture machines, hopefully with debugged MC driver software! >sF > I'm also speculating that Infiniband will be a supported VMS clusterE > interconnect at or shortly after the Itanium VMS releases, and this G > was hinted at back at a UK DECUS clustering event back in February. I H > can't imagine it being 'backported' to Alpha systems. I'm increasinglyG > of the opinion that all the clews (sic) were and have been around forrF > a while, and that VMS will quite definitely move forwards on Itanium1 > [in ways it couldn't under Alpha]. Vive la VMS!H > * > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 03:27:35 -0700' From: piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers)e Subject: Minimerge= Message-ID: <be44b12d.0107110227.5f1581d0@posting.google.com>.   Hi,   N A minimerge, is this possible using OpenVMS 7.2 or is it only supported on 7.3  
 Greetings,   Piet Timmers   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 06:23:42 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews) Subject: Re: Minimerge= Message-ID: <a720d610.0107110523.61b9c135@posting.google.com>.  l piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers) wrote in message news:<be44b12d.0107110227.5f1581d0@posting.google.com>...P > A minimerge, is this possible using OpenVMS 7.2 or is it only supported on 7.3   hi,T  ; if you check the release notes of VMS721*SHADOWING* patchesAA and you are running VMS 7.2-1, then you too can take advantage ofc	 minicopy.u  D You're asked the question at installation. Note it is Alpha only but VAX nodes can 'participate'.  ' Regards Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences- nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 12:23:12 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: Minimerge3 Message-ID: <jqjRGzMUrpdQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <a720d610.0107110523.61b9c135@posting.google.com>, nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews) writes:n > piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers) wrote in message news:<be44b12d.0107110227.5f1581d0@posting.google.com>...Q >> A minimerge, is this possible using OpenVMS 7.2 or is it only supported on 7.3i >  > hi,k > = > if you check the release notes of VMS721*SHADOWING* patches C > and you are running VMS 7.2-1, then you too can take advantage oft > minicopy.i > F > You're asked the question at installation. Note it is Alpha only but > VAX nodes can 'participate'. >   : 	Nic... I just peeled through the release notes and lookedB 	at my AtoZ presentation (see slide seventeen where he states thatH 	write bitmap backport timeframe is to be determined) and do recall him E 	stating mini-copy will be back-ported to 7.2 but a timeframe wasn't .! 	given (and this was March 2001).-  : 	Mini-copy isn't here yet for 7.2-1 unless you can show us 	otherwise.e   Release Notes for shadowing:  g http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/vms/axp/v7.2-1/dec-axpvms-vms721_shadowing-v0500--4.READMEB   				Rob9   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 10:49:17 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris) Subject: Re: Minimerge= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0107110949.5ce30ded@posting.google.com>   l piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers) wrote in message news:<be44b12d.0107110227.5f1581d0@posting.google.com>...P > A minimerge, is this possible using OpenVMS 7.2 or is it only supported on 7.3  E Mini-Merges have been supported for many years on VMS, as long as youi@ had MSCP controllers (i.e. HSC, HSJ, or HSD) which supported the7 Volume Shadowing Assist called 'Write History Logging'.e  A If you want mini-merges on HSG80 (Fibre Channel) controllers, thep@ latest info I've seen (the "Fibre Channel in a Disaster-Tolerant% OpenVMS Cluster System" whitepaper at-? http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/fc_hbvs_dtc_wp.pdf) @ indicates that this will require ACS 8.7 and VMS 7.3-1, assuming things go according to plan.  C Since there have already been responses in this thread referring to > the Mini-Copy capability, and I don't know if you really meant< Mini-Merge or Mini-Copy, it might be helpful to describe the, difference between Mini-Merge and Mini-Copy.  ? A Shadowing Full Copy occurs when you add a disk to an existing-D shadowset using a MOUNT command; the entire contents of the disk areB effectively copied to the new member (using an algorithm that goesC through in 127-block increments and reads one member, compares withb@ the target disk, and if the data differs, writes the data to theD target disk and loops back to the read step, until the data is equal for that 127-block section).  E If you warn VMS ahead of time (at dismount time) that you're planning F to remove a disk from a shadowset but re-add it later, VMS will keep aD bit-map tracking what areas of the disk have been modified while theB disk was out of the shadowset, and when you re-add it later with aC MOUNT command VMS only has to update the areas of the returned diskgE that the bit-map indicates are now out-of-date.  VMS does this with anC read source / write target algorithm, which is much faster than theS? shenanigans the Full Copy does, so even if 100% of the disk has 0 changed, a Mini-Copy is faster than a Full Copy.  D A Shadowing Merge is initiated when a VMS node in the cluster (whichB had a shadowset mounted) crashes or otherwise leaves unexpectedly,@ without dismounting the shadowset first.  In this case, VMS mustF ensure that the data is identical, since Shadowing guarantees that theA data on the disks in a shadowset will be identical.  In a regulareE Merge operation, Shadowing uses an algorithm similar to the Full CopygD algorithm (except that it can choose either of the members' contentsA as the source data, since both are considered equally valid), andl@ scans the entire disk.  Also, to make things worse, for any readD operations in the area ahead of what has been merged, Shadowing willE first merge the area containing the read data, then allow the read toa occur.  B A Merge can be very time-consuming and very I/O intensive, so some= controllers have Shadowing Assists to make it faster.  If thetE controllers support Write History Logging, the controllers record the0D areas (LBNs) that are the subject of Shadowing writes, and if a nodeB crashes, the surviving nodes can query the controllers to find outB what exact areas of the disk the departed node was writing to justC before the crash, and thus Shadowing only needs to merge just those B few areas, so this tends to take seconds as opposed to hours for a regular Merge.C ------------------------------------------------------------------- C Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:eC Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:32:44 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)) Subject: Re: MX V4.2 installation problem * Message-ID: <3b4c476c$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  b In article <3b4b6aba$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:M >>This used to install fine (it is, in fact, the same exact distribution that-M >>I had installed about a year ago before some recent upgrades - there do noteJ >>appear to have been any updates to the package since then, or since 1995' >>even, so I didn't download it again).a >rI >The current MX is V5.1 (commercial version).  V4.2 was the last freewareoF >version.  You should ask your question in vmsnet.mail.mx or send yourB >question to mx-list@madgoat.com (the mailing list is gated to the >newsgroup).  ( Just to nitpick. V5.2 (ECO 4) is current   -- H< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 07:07:32 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews)# Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IP Storage = Message-ID: <a720d610.0107110607.506ef48f@posting.google.com>w  4 kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message   6 > > If there is the possibility  of clustering etc ??? > E > At least some in VMS Engineering have considered the possibility of C > implementing SCS over IP.  I think it's technically possible.  Do:@ > folks feel there would be a big demand for this feature?  (TheH > TruCluster folks actually did it, but then again, they have decided toB > use a different protocol for 5.0 and following, as I recall from@ > reading the 5.0 TruCluster documentation, due to problems they3 > experienced related to some of the timers in IP.)i > D > Put another way: Do you feel your IP network is reliable enough to> > serve as a VMScluster interconnect?  How about its latency?  > Bandwidth?  Cost?b > B > I fear that SCS over IP might end up a lot like SCSI Clusters --? > useful at the low end and in niches, but with enough inherent F > performance and reliability issues that it doesn't become mainstream > VMScluster technology. > F > On the other hand, given IP's universal presence (and the increasingH > difficulty of getting bridged VMScluster interconnects from companies'G > networking departments) outweigh the technical disadvantages and make E > it easier for VMS Clusters to survive and thrive in Cisco-dominatedb > networks?o  @ This question was asked at the London VMS update, and the answerF tended towards a 'no' mainly because the IP stack and all it's foibles@ had to be loaded up so early in the OS boot, and add to that the9 complexities of packets reliably finding their way to theo destination...  8 Isn't it a bit like asking about clustering over DECNet?  B I don't know if IPv6 may change the situation, I don't know enoughA about it. As you say, I don't fancy placing the reliability of my9B cluster into the hands of the 'notwork department'. If CISCO won'tD support the protocol I need (60-07) then I won't buy CISCO. QED. TheB notworking personnel just need informing that there are networking7 protocols _and_ connection protocols in the real world.   ' Regards Nic Clews CSC COmputer Scienceso nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:40:25 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)# Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IP Storage(2 Message-ID: <Jr_27.558$rc5.39740@news.cpqcorp.net>  ` In article <a720d610.0107110607.506ef48f@posting.google.com>, nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews) writes:5 :kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message K :I7 :> > If there is the possibility  of clustering etc ???n :> iF :> At least some in VMS Engineering have considered the possibility ofB :> implementing SCS over IP.  I think it's technically possible.    G   We've discussed this and we've discussed other clustering techniques.d9   (And discussed SCSI over IP and other such variants...)    ..A :This question was asked at the London VMS update, and the answer G :tended towards a 'no' mainly because the IP stack and all it's foibles / :had to be loaded up so early in the OS boot...t  F   The need to operate clustering early in the OpenVMS bootstrap would F   require non-trivial changes to the existing IP stack implementation F   and to the OpenVMS bootstrap, and the results of layering SCS on IP =   would have questionable value and questionable performance.n  C :I don't know if IPv6 may change the situation, I don't know enougha :about it.    C   Nope, the requirements to overhaul the bootstrap and to alter they=   IP stack implementation to operate in the bootstrap remain.    	--a  E   Folks that need longer cluster connections accordingly use bridgingI(   techniques and not routing techniques.  I   The closest currently-available analog to the requested approach would tL   likely involve NFS with locking, and this is a rather more loosely-coupledH   storage model than folks operating in an OpenVMS Cluster model expect.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 17:59:18 +0200  From: Cthulhu <cthulhu@rlyeh.it>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS/VAX hang on boot - SECURESHRP.EXE( Message-ID: <9iht4m$fg$1@kadath.deep.it>   cthulhu@rlyeh.it wrote:o  J > Oh, well, I'll wait for that 300MB HDD to reinstall, and I've learned to> > _always_ reboot the system between two ECO installations. :)  @ Thanks to all, I got that HDD and I reinstalled all back again.   F Yes, this is not an OpenVMS supported solution, but I'm just a newbie. :)  
 	reworkingly,.
 	  Cthulhu   -- i  H        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!$ 		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:49:27 +0100g  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Outta here.H Message-ID: <OFD5CD6FC9.2B2EF153-ON80256A86.003B533D@qedi.quintiles.com>  K Due to a change of employment at the end of this week, I'm likely to be out,H of touch with comp.os.vms for a while (anywhere from a few days to a few weeks).m" Good luck to all in the mean time. Steve.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:53:57 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: Outta here.' Message-ID: <3B4C6885.DFD25FA1@fsi.net>   ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:a > M > Due to a change of employment at the end of this week, I'm likely to be out J > of touch with comp.os.vms for a while (anywhere from a few days to a few	 > weeks).e$ > Good luck to all in the mean time. > Steve.   ...and to you!   -- e David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsp http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/K  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:36:19 +0200c2 From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman@digital.com> Subject: Re: Printer hookups+ Message-ID: <3B4C1E13.60C61FFF@digital.com>0  C From personal experience of a system with a few dozen HP printers -r definitely (B possible. The printers in question are all HP 4000s and 4050s (The
 reason for4 using old printers - the client needs Hebrew fonts.)D No DCPS or Scriptserver, just defined by UCX$LPRSETUP, with the node defined H as the printers IP address, and the printer name "TEXT" - dunno why, but	 it works.f   Mike.k   David Lee wrote: > J > Sorry to post this silly questions, but I am kind of new to this job andM > confusing about the type of printer I should buy and of course I don't wantoM > to buy the wrong one.  I have a couple Alpha workstations that connected toeN > an ES-40 Server, running OpenVMS 7.2, my system also support both Decnet and > TCP/IP.  I wantcG > to hook up a network printer so that they all can share.  I have been1 > looking at theK > web, particulartly HP and Lexmark network printers.  None of the printerss@ > mentioned in their advertisement supporting OpenVMS platforms. > My questions are,sM > are there any printers out there that support this OpenVMS platform?  Or doe* > I have to purchase printers from Compaq? > Thank you.   --  E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il*oF Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------w -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----t Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:25:42 +0100o0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>: Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the recent turn of events...* Message-ID: <3B4C53D6.445D8A31@uk.sun.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:w > 9 > In article <3B474299.AFCFEDB2@ui.urban.org>, Jim Beckert > <jbecker@ui.urban.org> wrote:t > H > > Not exactly a reply to Ken's message -- I'm just swiping his subject > > line...g > >tI > > Our organization was, before the recent turn of events, just about toaD > > buy another Alpha running OpenVMS. We're not a big shop, so thisJ > > wasn't a trivial decision. We like VMS and we like the Alpha, but whenA > > a vendor announces plans to discontinue one platform and porteF > > "everything" to another platform to be made by some other company,C > > it's just good business sense for us to re-assess our decision.m >  > <snip> > H > You raised many good points.  Some of them are directly under compaq'sL > control.  I suggest you put the questions for Compaq in a nice letter, andE > send it to Rich Marcello.  Make it plain that your next alphaserver-B > purchase is ON HOLD until you see concrete movement in the right
 > directions.R > J > Keep in mind that it is less than 2 weeks since the public announcement.5 > You shouldn't expect concrete timetables yet, IMHO.: >   < I agreed with you up till this. Of course you should expect 7 concrete timetables plus migration details. You cannot e9 expect Compaqs customer base to survive on what has been 1 announced so far.A  7 The idea that Compaq has made this announcment without n5 haveing answers to these questions is almost worth a s class action suit.    J > Similar letters should go to the vendors of your important applications.K > They may need even more time, since they have to read Compaq's tea leaves $ > before they worry about their own. >   B The idea that Compaq made this announcemnt without first assessing7 the intentions of their major ISV's is also ludicrous. 0   Regards0 Andrew Harrisoni Enterprise IT Architectc   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 12:17:24 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64 * Message-ID: <3b4c27b4$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  _ In article <uUM27.550$l%.214419@typhoon2.gnilink.net>, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes:n >Revised...n  " Time to jump in (for a second) ;-)  7 >This is the first in a series of "Tech Talks" by Terry 9 >Shannon. This Tech Talk will be on IA-64: Good Questions  >You Will Need to Answer >  >We live in interesting times.  8 Nuclear (or Genom) technology/times is interesting, too.G But I so far haven't seen anything really positive from this invention,e& only a really big problem for mankind.  5 'Interesting' doesn't neccessarily mean 'positive' !!.6 And in the case of Alpha/IA64 I still only have fears.    : >                              Compaq and Intel on June 258 >announced that Alpha, long the fastest processor on the8 >planet, would reach its production omega with the ~2004+ >introduction of the Alpha 21364 EV79 part.-   The 21364B ?= Is the EV7 really a EV7, or does it already start as a EV78 ?   2 >                                           Compaq5 >subsequently will base all its enterprise systems ont6 >forthcoming members of Intel's IPF (Itanium Processor8 >Family), a.k.a. IA-64, microprocessor lineup. Under the8 >terms of the non-exclusive agreement--an agreement that5 >represents an undeniable coup for Intel--Compaq willa< >consolidate its entire 64-bit platform and OS lineup on the6 >IPF architecture beginning in 2004. In the near term, >nothing will change.t  ! So do the optimists (and Q) hope.r: The pessimists (and majority of still left customers/ISVs)) now say "enough" and start to leave, too.-  ; >                     The AlphaServer and OS roadmap remaine: >intact and essentially unchanged through 2003, and Compaq< >will continue to build and sell Alpha systems through 2013,4 >and as long thereafter as sufficient demand exists.  $ Again, this is what we hope/believe.+ This is not what the press release told us.wC A press release which worse can't be and the reality is different ?  Don't looks like...n  ; >                                                    (Alphac: >products will be supported for at least five years beyond9 >their final purchase date, so ongoing support is assuredv7 >through 2018.) Compaq already has started porting NSK,s< >Tru64 UNIX, and VMS to the IPF while transferring key Alpha: >processor and compiler technology, tools, and engineering >resources to Intel.  . with a huge lot of still unknown consequences.   >They've Killed Alpha! Why?k >c6 >Given technical and economic realities, Compaq really >didn't have much choice.o   That is your interpretation.  < >                         A detailed technical assessment of5 >the IPF and Alpha product roadmaps revealed that IPFt7 >products would in the reasonably near term marginalizeO2 >Alpha's 'sustainable performance advantage' value
 >proposition.   + And another assessment showed the opposite.   ? But the key for mass production is the price/performance ratio. / And the Alpha _was_ not on the mood side there.p@ But nobody knows on which side the IA64 will be, so nobody knows, what Alpha would have been on in the future.  6 >             Although primarily a technical decision,3 >Compaq's announcement that it will terminate Alphac7 >development upon the completion of the EV79 CPU has an 5 >economic component as well. Do the math: based on ane5 >estimated ship rate of ~100K Alpha systems per year,s< >Compaq's Alpha chip consumption was ~250K to ~500K CPUs per9 >year. Given Alpha design and development costs of ~$250Mi: >per year, fixed overhead added as much as $1K to the cost5 >of each Alpha chip Compaq shipped. Absent a dramaticl; >increase in AlphaServer adoption rates, Alpha was indictedw; >by the law of diminishing returns, and tried and convictedb! >in the court of the marketplace.e  D Yup. But the increase in the shipped volume would have been possibleH with low entry systems (like cheaper DS10). Especially when Q would haveF been giving away OpenVMS (and Tru64) on all systems up to 4-processorsM (just like what Sun did for SOLARIS - and up to eight processors) for free !!r  C Penetrating a market costs money, but giving away software for freegB is very cheap and _all_ incomes (hardware/support/add-on-software)' stay in-house for this Alpha systems !!u    D Why does everyone seem to assume that IA64 would be the only chip ofF the future ? I think the opposite is true. I don't think that IA64 canD totally replace IA32 within this decade !! So, INTEL would have thisE price/performance problems for their 64bit chip, too, for many years.tA And is a decade later on the market (=> has no applications whichrK requires IA64). And is slower than Alpha (for yet another couple of years).2  H For me, Q has killed the now much brighter future for the Alpha (becauseG INTEL would have not satisfied all the perceptions of all the customers<) in the new CPU of the chip market leader)i   >So, Will IPF Be Alpha-Inside? >i8 >It's uncertain exactly which pieces of Alpha technology< >actually can be incorporated into future IPF chips, but the: >cross-pollination of Intel and Alpha developers in and of7 >itself should enrich the IPF architecture. The on-chip91 >memory controller, interprocessor communicationsT; >interfaces, and on-chip routing technology that EV7 bringst9 >to the table should be of particular interest to the IPFe9 >development team. With McKinley a done deal the questionh; >becomes one of when Compaq will be able to impact IPF chipc: >development. In the meantime, it'll be interesting to see9 >how Compaq will execute its strategy before it can fullyy >impact IPF chip design.  , If Q can impact the IA64 chip design at all.; Note, the developers are then INTEL developers and not Q's. E If INTEL has two faces and don't want to do such changes, then what ?- Q will then sue INTEL ?06 Or will it revive the EV8 ? With how many developers ?  = Despite the fact, that some Alpha developers are INTEL hatersf: and will now join other companies to fight against IA64...   >Wildfire, Marvel, then What?e >i< >Mongo systems based on CPU Blades and an InfiniBand fabric,9 >just as Compaq planned to deliver. Well over a year ago,m; >Compaq's High Performance Systems Division began designingD5 >a post-Marvel enterprise server that will leverage ae1 >processor 'blade' and InfiniBand switched fabricu4 >architecture. (InfiniBand is a new low latency high1 >bandwidth I/O and interconnect architecture that 8 >incorporates many of the concepts of Compaq's ServerNet9 >architecture. Those familiar with the ISSG's forthcoming : >IA-32-based QuickBlade server can consider the future IPF: >enterprise server to be "QuickBlade on Steroids.") Slated5 >to debut in the middle of the decade, the server wasa< >designed to be and still will be the successor to the next-4 >generation GS-Series product, the EV7-based Marvel.; >(Featuring a modular design that leverages EV7's [gluelessc9 >SMP] on-chip routing and interconnect technology, Marvelr5 >will support up to 64 Alpha EV7 processors and offerg: >significant improvements in performance, scalability, and6 >cost of ownership. Prototype Marvel systems using EV7. >processors are now running in Compaq's labs.)  A How small/cheap is a development hardware for this new techniqueso= so that ISV can use the advantages in its software products ?n0 Will I need a MARVEL to design MARVEL software ?  5 >The IPF consolidation poses no adverse impact on thei8 >delivery of Marvel systems or on the development of the8 >post-Marvel enterprise server. Freed from the burden of9 >developing and funding Alpha CPUs, Compaq can focus more 3 >resources on system-level enhancements and productk6 >differentiators such as RAS, common management tools,: >middleware, advanced partitioning and resource management: >capabilities, etc-in short, all the underpinnings for the( >firm's long-term Server Utility vision.  0 IMO, this fight got already lost in the DEC daysE (mostly to MegaShit, and to ISVs which likely continue to ignore DEQ)    >Details, We Need Details! >r: >I will be expanding on this and other subjects during the9 >kickoff session on Sunday night at the Compaq Enterprisef: >Technical Symposium to be held in Anaheim September 8-14.9 >For more details please visit http://www.CETS2001.com. Ip5 >also routinely cover the Compaq cross currents in myp< >publication "Shannon Knows Compaq". For more details please >visit http://www.acersoft.com.t >n >s  >Copyright 2001 Terry C. Shannon  # Good luck to you and the rest of usi   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888s< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:51:35 +0200a< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64l4 Message-ID: <9ihb10$ioatr$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote...) >"Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes:o >>We live in interesting times.t > 9 >Nuclear (or Genom) technology/times is interesting, too.nH >But I so far haven't seen anything really positive from this invention,' >only a really big problem for mankind.e >t6 >'Interesting' doesn't neccessarily mean 'positive' !!7 >And in the case of Alpha/IA64 I still only have fears.y  @ "May you live in interesting times" is an old chinese curse [1].4 So it's probably not meant as positive as it sounds.   cu,g   Martin  B [1]: I only learnt this when Terry Pratchett chose it as the title(      of one of his Discworld novels (seeA      http://www.lspace.org/books/reviews/interesting-times.html).t
      Also seeyB http://merryrose.atlantia.sca.org/archive/1997-12dec/msg00140.html --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deeJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:44:49 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64c+ Message-ID: <9ihop1$gk4$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>E  * In article <3b4c27b4$1@news.kapsch.co.at>,-  eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:wb |> In article <uUM27.550$l%.214419@typhoon2.gnilink.net>, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes: |> >Revised... |>  % |> Time to jump in (for a second) ;-)e |> l: |> >This is the first in a series of "Tech Talks" by Terry< |> >Shannon. This Tech Talk will be on IA-64: Good Questions |> >You Will Need to Answerg |> >! |> >We live in interesting times./ |> '; |> Nuclear (or Genom) technology/times is interesting, too.-J |> But I so far haven't seen anything really positive from this invention,) |> only a really big problem for mankind.. |> s8 |> 'Interesting' doesn't neccessarily mean 'positive' !! |>  0 Isn't there an ancient Chinese curse that says: .           "May you live in interesting times."   :-)o   bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:14:20 +0000 (UTC)a' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)t- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64f+ Message-ID: <9ihu0s$ikh$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   W In article <3b4c27b4$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:a` >In article <uUM27.550$l%.214419@typhoon2.gnilink.net>, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes: >>Revised... >o# >Time to jump in (for a second) ;-)w >e8 >>This is the first in a series of "Tech Talks" by Terry: >>Shannon. This Tech Talk will be on IA-64: Good Questions >>You Will Need to Answerg >> >>We live in interesting times.  >e9 >Nuclear (or Genom) technology/times is interesting, too.rH >But I so far haven't seen anything really positive from this invention,' >only a really big problem for mankind.i >R6 >'Interesting' doesn't neccessarily mean 'positive' !!7 >And in the case of Alpha/IA64 I still only have fears.0 >  >m  7 "May you live in interesting times" is a chinese curse.r  H Historically "interesting times" are those times when disaster strikes - plagues, wars etcf     >nE >Why does everyone seem to assume that IA64 would be the only chip ofeG >the future ? I think the opposite is true. I don't think that IA64 can E >totally replace IA32 within this decade !! So, INTEL would have this F >price/performance problems for their 64bit chip, too, for many years.B >And is a decade later on the market (=> has no applications whichL >requires IA64). And is slower than Alpha (for yet another couple of years). > I >For me, Q has killed the now much brighter future for the Alpha (becauseeH >INTEL would have not satisfied all the perceptions of all the customers* >in the new CPU of the chip market leader) > O Agreed. I cannot see why anyone will need 64bit for the desktop in the next fewr years. sH About the only way I could see users going to 64bit on the desktop is ifJ Microsoft were to suddenly decide that they will only sell and support the? 64bit version of windows. Thereby forcing everyone to upgrade. pG I somehow don't think even Microsoft would risk upsetting users to that- extent.-       
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:36:34 GMTe. From: "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedA Message-ID: <StS27.173856$%i7.113395793@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>-   "Larry Kilgallen" wrote-A > Even if that were possible, I am certain Compaq is not going tos6 > revisit the lack of debug support for VESTed images.  - (I'm from Tandem development; don't know VMS)e  ; The VEST-like binary translation tool we built for Tandem's-< migration onto Mips circa 1990 did allow for statement-level8 debugging of  translated programs.  And CISC instruction8 level debugging was also possible, using the interpreter6 instead of the translator.  I'm surprised to hear that8 Vest did not support something similar.  But then we had8 to make the translator services really complete, because4 we didn't make native-Mips compilers available until4 about 4 years later.  (Many Himalaya customers today; still prefer using the translater and old compilers, rather 4 than doing any migration/recompilation work at all.)  - On a VMS-onto-IA64 port, perhaps it would now 1 be acceptable to handle all VAX binary executionsd4 via an interpreter instead of via a retargeted VEST.     -- Duane Sand"   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2001 05:36:33 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <p1+ZVsCJAcQ9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <StS27.173856$%i7.113395793@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> writes: >  > "Larry Kilgallen" wroteiB >> Even if that were possible, I am certain Compaq is not going to7 >> revisit the lack of debug support for VESTed images.n > / > (I'm from Tandem development; don't know VMS)s > = > The VEST-like binary translation tool we built for Tandem'sh> > migration onto Mips circa 1990 did allow for statement-level: > debugging of  translated programs.  And CISC instruction: > level debugging was also possible, using the interpreter8 > instead of the translator.  I'm surprised to hear that: > Vest did not support something similar.  But then we had: > to make the translator services really complete, because6 > we didn't make native-Mips compilers available until6 > about 4 years later.  (Many Himalaya customers today= > still prefer using the translater and old compilers, rathero6 > than doing any migration/recompilation work at all.)  < So far as I know, the lack of debug support was a management: decision, based on the fact that eventually there would be: compilers for most languages (i.e., not SCAN or LISP), and: they wanted to spend the money on filling out the compiler> roster rather than supporting the somewhat slower translation.  / > On a VMS-onto-IA64 port, perhaps it would nowf3 > be acceptable to handle all VAX binary executionsi6 > via an interpreter instead of via a retargeted VEST.  : VEST can handle interpretation of a whole program, at some= performance penalty.  That capability had to be there becausei6 of programs that generate VAX instructions on the fly.  > Using only interpretation on IA64 would work for VAX binaries,< but for Alpha binaries the performance would be unacceptably$ slow, since expectations are higher.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:34:29 +0100h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated* Message-ID: <3B4C39C5.85FD879C@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,i > K > >>> You are whistling in the wind. Anything that requires new hardware, aVN > new os and all the applications to be ported when compared with the list youA > presented from the other vendors is at a huge dissadvantage.<<<o > L > Given this announcement was only made a week ago, I would suggest that youJ > do not make comparitive statements about what is available today vs whatM > will be available in 2-3 years when the VMS/IA64 offerings start to appear.o >   8 This cuts both ways Kerry as you should appreciate only 	 too well.e  ? Perhaps that person who has most to learn from the last months  9 events is you, interesting that you don't appear to have.o  M > Will there be emulation built in for OpenVMS Customers or a translator (aka 1 > vest) or an FX!32 type utility ?  I don't know.i >   < So at the moment you have no idea what the transition costs 3 will be for a customer to move to IA-64 from Alpha.1  9 Since this is the case isn't a bit early for Compaq to beg7 talking about the benefits of moving to IA-64. Without p8 being able to judge the costs you are not providing your6 customers with enough information to make an informed  choice.     N > In addition, while HW/OS vendors may state app's will run in emulation mode,? > will the applicable SW vendor fully support this environment?g > E > Some might, but if the FX!32 experience is any guage, they may not.g > H > My point is that for full vendor support and the best performance, allK > platforms require their important applications to be recompiled in nativeiI > mode on the new target platforms- surely you do not disagree with this?k >   E You are right, but it also depends on the ratio of natively compiled cH performance to emulated and how performance critical the particular app E is on the overall software stack. If performance is not to awfull ande the vendor P< supports an emulated mode then it would be Ok for some apps.    F > Imho, its way to early to say what the strategy for this will be forG > OpenVMS. The Eng folks are working out their strategy and will update   > Customers as soon as possible. > M > However, they have stated support for mixed IA64-Alpha clusters (similar toeM > VAX-Alpha clusters) - can the same be said for mixed Sparc II and SPARC III J > servers in the latest Sun cluster offerings? Will a SPARC II applicationN > running in emulation mode be supported in a SPARC III Sun cluster? [I reallyN > dont know these answers and would appreciate an update or pointer on this..] >   F This is an entirely different propostion, the both the UltraII and the UltraIIII support the SPARC V9 architecture and are binary compatible. This is not iD what you are providing with mixed IA-64/Alpha clusters. You might as well cC ask if Comapq support mixing EV5 and EV6 nodes in the same cluster,t which  I assume you do.  G > The OpenVMS Eng folks have a great deal of experience in dealing with L > porting issues and mixed cluster support, so I am confident that with themM > working closely with the Alpha EV8 team that is going to work with Intel oneL > improving the Itanium architecture, any technical issues will be resolved. >   D This misses the point, it does not really matter how good your port B of OpenVMS is or how performant or how timely, I would assume the E best case scenario if I was you. What matters is what your key ISV's -? do and this is not something that OpenVMS engineering or Intel o can influence directly.e   Regardsw Andrew Harrisonc Enterprise IT Architecti   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:14:25 GMT2# From: "AnnaKay" <nfkjivav@free.now>d Subject: Tired of Bills. 4; Message-ID: <l1T27.927$BW2.380254336@twister1.starband.net>s  + This is a multi-part message in MIME formata  $ --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bite  , HOW TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE IN WEEKS !!!$$$$  L HOW TO TURN $30 INTO $50,000!! OR MUCH MORE!! READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE!m  K I started with $30 and I am now a 28 year old millionaire in only 3 months.d  L I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back,L I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across anL article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars withinH weeks with only an initial investment of $30! So I thought, "Yeah right,L this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading.J Anyway, it said that you send $5 to each of the 6 names and address statedI in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom ofcK the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There arelK thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking tocL a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured "what have I got toJ lose except 6 stamps and $30, right?" Then I invested the measly $30. WellI GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I wasiK shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. InI$ my first week, I made about $125.00.K By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $10,000.00! In thenG third week I had over $40,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my K fourth week and I have made a total of just over $100,000.00 and it's stillsL coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $30, and 6 stamps, I have spent moreB than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and mostE importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of thisnG article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. IrJ promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will startG making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! H Suggestion Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.)  E  Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy.-; It's legal. And, your investment is only $30 (Plus postage)t  	 IMPORTANTaG This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it iscL virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions9 are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends., PLEASE NOTEfL Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $120,000 or more can be yours inI 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty andtG integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefullynH adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail OrderI business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's aeH service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many largeG corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, theoJ money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made@ from people like you and me asking to be included in that list.   $ Here are the 4 easy steps to success  L STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each pieceH of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $5 bills andL place ONE inside. EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seenL through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each ofH the 6 envelopes and seal them, MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH STAMPS ONH YOUR ENVELOPES!!(also for international purposes). You should now have 6K sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, yourbJ name and address, and a $5 bill. What you are doing is creating a service.I THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and youuH are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a littleL worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S.H Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!7 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses........l    K ===========================================================================    #1)M
 Mark Mitchellr 1707 N. Ashley St. APT 55s Valdosta, GA 31601   #2)y Robert De Bruink 511 N. West Street #   Visalia, CA 93291-4807   #3)f Davell Gardner 509 Judy Ann Drive Hahira, GA 31632   #4)@ M. Alexander 11226 Osborne Street  Lake View Terrace, CA 91342   #5)  leroy wilcox 1309 n 26th avee pasco wa 99301     #6)a	 V.A. Simse 891 S. Johnsville Rd.t New Lebanon, Ohio  45345L ============================================================================    L STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the otherL names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 onJ the list. STEP 3 Change anything you need to, but try to keep this articleL as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at leastJ 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need isK 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! ** EVERYBODYdE AROUND THE WORLD CAN DO IT, BUT REMEMBER TO PUT ENOUGH STAMPS ON YOUR H EVELOPES!!!!** This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer toJ Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of theseJ steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, andJ again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of theL honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering toI the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the programcL will continue and the money that so many others have received will come yourK way. NOTE You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, eitherIL on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIESI that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea tohH wrap the $5 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, asJ each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six membersL will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with 5 dollarJ each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your nameE reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in F CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $30 ($5 for each of the first sixJ people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!  = ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------u Step 1:nL You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. SimplyK put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the-H bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will2 copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.   Step 2:aI Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blankbH page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the> letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.   Step 3:eJ Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postingsB in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to.   Step 4:iJ Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups: (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)   Step 5:tD Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message byL highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu.G Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as theyoI scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the posti0 message button. You're done with your first one!  D Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to differentJ newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! h  + **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN K (Massage-boards etc.) THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST AiH MINIMUM OF 200 That's it! You will begin receiving money from around theG world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to theAI large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, youmL can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. *JUST MAKE% SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**i  J Now the WHY part Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a veryJ low example). So then I made $25.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,H each of the 5 persons who just sent me $5 make the MINIMUM 200 postings,J each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the originalK 5, that is another $125.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts I with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additionalxL $625.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with myE name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional H $3125.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post aL MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies,H that just made me $15625.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver thisK message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200uI newsgroups react I will receive $78125,00! With an original investment ofSI only $30! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just takeoJ the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $30 to names onK the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. ThetI thing to remember is do you realize that thousands of people all over thetI world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUSTrH LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $30 and see if it really works?? IH think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no oneI sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening whengL there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining theL internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? EstimatesE are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those-H joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and thisB will really work. Don't let this exciting opportunity pass you by!  ; GO FOR IT, AND YOU WILL SMILE WITHIN WEEKS!!!, AS MANY HAVEr   --------            $ --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf' Content-Type: application/octet-stream;<         name="MONEY.txt"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64r  Content-Disposition: attachment;         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Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:12:23 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bre Subject: Re: Tired of Bills. 4L Message-ID: <OFE50C2126.C297F408-ON03256A86.003D8F72@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  : --0__=03256A86003D8F728f9e8a93df938690918c03256A86003D8F72* Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii  . "HOW TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE IN WEEKS !!!$$$$"   Answer:w  6 ASK MICHAEL CAPPELAS ......   IN 180 DAYS !  (or less)       Regards    FC        > "AnnaKay" <nfkjivav@free.now>@free.now> em 11/07/2001 04:14:25  / Favor responder a "AnnaKay" <nfkjivav@free.now>   * Enviado Por:   AnnaKay <nfkjivav@free.now>               Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,       Assunto: Tired of Bills. 4    , HOW TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE IN WEEKS !!!$$$$  G HOW TO TURN $30 INTO $50,000!! OR MUCH MORE!! READING THIS COULD CHANGEr YOUR LIFE!w  K I started with $30 and I am now a 28 year old millionaire in only 3 months.   F I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back,sI I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came acrosst anE article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars  withinH weeks with only an initial investment of $30! So I thought, "Yeah right,C this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kepty reading.J Anyway, it said that you send $5 to each of the 6 names and address statedI in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom ofeK the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There arehK thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking tolI a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured "what have I gotd toJ lose except 6 stamps and $30, right?" Then I invested the measly $30. WellI GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I wastK shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. Inr$ my first week, I made about $125.00.K By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $10,000.00! In theaG third week I had over $40,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now myaK fourth week and I have made a total of just over $100,000.00 and it's stillVG coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $30, and 6 stamps, I have spentE moreB than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and mostE importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of thispG article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. IuJ promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will startG making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy!CH Suggestion Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.)  E  Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy.s; It's legal. And, your investment is only $30 (Plus postage)C  	 IMPORTANT2G This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it isG? virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the followingg instructions9 are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends.N PLEASE NOTE I Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $120,000 or more can be yoursi inI 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and G integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefullyCH adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail OrderI business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's aiH service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many largeG corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, thehJ money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made? from people like you and me asking to be included in that list.X  $ Here are the 4 easy steps to success  F STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piecegH of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $5 bills andG place ONE inside. EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not bep seenI through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in eachv ofH the 6 envelopes and seal them, MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH STAMPS ONH YOUR ENVELOPES!!(also for international purposes). You should now have 6K sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, yourvJ name and address, and a $5 bill. What you are doing is creating a service.I THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you H are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a littleG worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with theS U.S.H Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!7 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses........l    K ===========================================================================k   #1)h
 Mark MitchellQ 1707 N. Ashley St. APT 55G Valdosta, GA 31601   #2)G Robert De Bruing 511 N. West Street # Visalia, CA 93291-4807   #3)p Davell Gardner 509 Judy Ann Drive Hahira, GA 31632   #4)S M. Alexander 11226 Osborne Street  Lake View Terrace, CA 91342   #5)z leroy wilcox 1309 n 26th aveN pasco wa 99301     #6)r	 V.A. Simsh 891 S. Johnsville Rd.h New Lebanon, Ohio  45345L ============================================================================      F STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the otherFI names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6G onJ the list. STEP 3 Change anything you need to, but try to keep this articleF as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at leastHJ 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need isK 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! ** EVERYBODYzE AROUND THE WORLD CAN DO IT, BUT REMEMBER TO PUT ENOUGH STAMPS ON YOURzH EVELOPES!!!!** This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer toJ Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of theseJ steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, andJ again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of theI honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adheringk toI the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the programQG will continue and the money that so many others have received will comeG yourK way. NOTE You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, eitherJC on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. Thisp VERIFIESI that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea toNH wrap the $5 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, asJ each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six membersE will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with 5F dollarJ each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your nameE reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in0F CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $30 ($5 for each of the first sixJ people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!  = ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------m Step 1:gE You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting.G SimplyK put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to theXH bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will2 copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.   Step 2:gI Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blankGH page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the> letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.   Step 3:gJ Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postingsB in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to.   Step 4:DJ Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups: (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)   Step 5:uD Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message byF highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu.FG Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as theyQI scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post90 message button. You're done with your first one!  D Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to differentJ newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup!  + **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST INuK (Massage-boards etc.) THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST AzH MINIMUM OF 200 That's it! You will begin receiving money from around theG world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to thehI large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, youWG can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. *JUSTi MAKE% SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**E  J Now the WHY part Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a veryJ low example). So then I made $25.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,H each of the 5 persons who just sent me $5 make the MINIMUM 200 postings,J each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the originalK 5, that is another $125.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM postsWI with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additionalsI $625.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 withW myE name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional H $3125.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post aC MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5y replies,H that just made me $15625.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver thisK message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 2000I newsgroups react I will receive $78125,00! With an original investment ofXI only $30! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just takezJ the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $30 to names onK the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The3I thing to remember is do you realize that thousands of people all over thegI world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUSTiH LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $30 and see if it really works?? IH think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no oneI sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening whenhH there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining thezB internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try?	 EstimatesgE are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of thoseiH joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and thisB will really work. Don't let this exciting opportunity pass you by!  ; GO FOR IT, AND YOU WILL SMILE WITHIN WEEKS!!!, AS MANY HAVE3   --------             (See attached file: MONEY.txt)          : --0__=03256A86003D8F728f9e8a93df938690918c03256A86003D8F72 Content-type: text/plain;  	name="MONEY.txt"n$ Content-Description: Text-ASCII-7bit+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableW  , HOW TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE IN WEEKS !!!$$$$  L HOW TO TURN $30 INTO $50,000!! OR MUCH MORE!! READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE!C  K I started with $30 and I am now a 28 year old millionaire in only 3 months.U  L I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back,L I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across anL article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars withinH weeks with only an initial investment of $30! So I thought, "Yeah right,L this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading.J Anyway, it said that you send $5 to each of the 6 names and address statedI in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom ofQK the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There areGK thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking toGL a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured "what have I got toJ lose except 6 stamps and $30, right?" Then I invested the measly $30. WellI GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I wasWK shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. InX$ my first week, I made about $125.00.K By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $10,000.00! In thelG third week I had over $40,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now mynK fourth week and I have made a total of just over $100,000.00 and it's stillwL coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $30, and 6 stamps, I have spent moreB than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and mostE importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of this3G article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. IpJ promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will startG making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy!2H Suggestion Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.)  E  Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy.M; It's legal. And, your investment is only $30 (Plus postage)Z  	 IMPORTANTGG This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it isQL virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions9 are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends.  PLEASE NOTEnL Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $120,000 or more can be yours inI 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty andhG integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefullyjH adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail OrderI business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's aSH service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many largeG corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, thehJ money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is madeB from people like you and me asking to be included in that list.=20  $ Here are the 4 easy steps to success  L STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each pieceH of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $5 bills andL place ONE inside. EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seenL through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each ofH the 6 envelopes and seal them, MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH STAMPS ONH YOUR ENVELOPES!!(also for international purposes). You should now have 6K sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, yourkJ name and address, and a $5 bill. What you are doing is creating a service.I THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and youNH are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a littleL worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S.H Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!7 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses........m    L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=K =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dm   #1)y
 Mark Mitchellu 1707 N. Ashley St. APT 55u Valdosta, GA 31601   #2)v Robert De Bruinp 511 N. West Street #=203 Visalia, CA 93291-4807   #3)G Davell Gardner 509 Judy Ann Drive Hahira, GA 31632   #4)D M. Alexander 11226 Osborne Street  Lake View Terrace, CA 91342   #5)=20 leroy wilcox 1309 n 26th avep pasco wa 99301     #6)s	 V.A. SimsJ 891 S. Johnsville Rd.h New Lebanon, Ohio  45345L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D-    L STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the otherL names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 onJ the list. STEP 3 Change anything you need to, but try to keep this articleL as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at leastJ 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need isK 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! ** EVERYBODY E AROUND THE WORLD CAN DO IT, BUT REMEMBER TO PUT ENOUGH STAMPS ON YOUR H EVELOPES!!!!** This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer toJ Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of theseJ steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, andJ again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of theL honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering toI the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the programwL will continue and the money that so many others have received will come yourK way. NOTE You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either L on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIESI that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea toIH wrap the $5 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, asJ each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six membersL will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with 5 dollarJ each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your nameE reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars infF CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $30 ($5 for each of the first sixJ people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!  = ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------  Step 1:tL You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. SimplyK put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to theoH bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will2 copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.   Step 2:iI Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank H page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the> letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.   Step 3:OJ Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postingsB in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to.   Step 4:eJ Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups: (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)   Step 5: D Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message byL highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu.G Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as theylI scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post 0 message button. You're done with your first one!  D Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to differentJ newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about! 30 seconds for each newsgroup!=20t  + **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST INeK (Massage-boards etc.) THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST AhH MINIMUM OF 200 That's it! You will begin receiving money from around theG world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to thesI large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, youHL can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. *JUST MAKE% SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**   J Now the WHY part Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a veryJ low example). So then I made $25.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,H each of the 5 persons who just sent me $5 make the MINIMUM 200 postings,J each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the originalK 5, that is another $125.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM postsnI with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additionalSL $625.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with myE name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additionalrH $3125.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post aL MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies,H that just made me $15625.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver thisK message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200tI newsgroups react I will receive $78125,00! With an original investment ofdI only $30! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take=J the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $30 to names onK the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. TheGI thing to remember is do you realize that thousands of people all over theaI world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST1H LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $30 and see if it really works?? IH think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no oneI sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when=L there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining theL internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? EstimatesE are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of thoseiH joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and thisB will really work. Don't let this exciting opportunity pass you by!  ; GO FOR IT, AND YOU WILL SMILE WITHIN WEEKS!!!, AS MANY HAVE,   --------  < --0__=03256A86003D8F728f9e8a93df938690918c03256A86003D8F72--   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:36:16 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>b Subject: VXT 2000 with VMS?!K Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111631140.11106-100000@firewall.freddym.org>f  	 Hi there,r  I unreliable sources were telling me that it is possible to boot a VMS on ap
 VXT 2000+.
 Is that true?e If yes, how to do that? H I remember that I was trying it a few months ago but I were unsuccesfull$ with the normal cluster-boot method.4 It would be cool to have a VXT2000+ in a VMS-Cluster  & Oh, as we're speaking about VXT2000+s:  H Is it possible to use a serial console on the VXT2000+ (I know that it's3 an X-Terminal but perhaps there's a dirty hack...). G As you may have seen I want to integrate a VXT2000+ into my VMSCluster.a" It would be a nice Netboot client.F If it isn't possible to attach a Serial Console to the VXT2000+, is itI possible to get a serial console login as soon as VMS has booted, so thatsB I could let it boot without a console, and then (as soon as it has  finished booting) get a console?   Many thanks in advance, 
 Best Regards,o 	Freddyn   -- aN Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================D  Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more-I  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOSn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:50:03 -0400g2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1107011150030001@user-2ive70a.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleG <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111631140.11106-100000@firewall.freddym.org>, Freddy'' Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org> wrote:e   > Hi there,  > K > unreliable sources were telling me that it is possible to boot a VMS on ay > VXT 2000+. > Is that true?f > If yes, how to do that? J > I remember that I was trying it a few months ago but I were unsuccesfull& > with the normal cluster-boot method.6 > It would be cool to have a VXT2000+ in a VMS-Cluster  1 I don't think so.  But I'm not a reliable source.     J > Is it possible to use a serial console on the VXT2000+ (I know that it's5 > an X-Terminal but perhaps there's a dirty hack...).sI > As you may have seen I want to integrate a VXT2000+ into my VMSCluster.   F I haven't seen one in 5 years, but I think they had a serial port, and6 could be used as a VT-type terminal through that port.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:53:45 -0400e* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>  Subject: Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!. Message-ID: <3B4C3E49.3405.140349A1@localhost>  K > unreliable sources were telling me that it is possible to boot a VMS on aF > VXT 2000+.  D I haven't tried it personally, but I'd suggest that your first step ) would be to copy the boot ROM from a VLC.t  1 You might also want to add some memory (somehow).   ? The whole might be doomed if your VXT is one of those that was tD shipped with a defective floating-point unit.  It might boot but be  unable to really do anything.O     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671m1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147s= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comt   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:46:34 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>   Subject: Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!K Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111745300.11324-100000@firewall.freddym.org>    Hi!s  M > > unreliable sources were telling me that it is possible to boot a VMS on a  > > VXT 2000+. > F > I haven't tried it personally, but I'd suggest that your first step + > would be to copy the boot ROM from a VLC.i  0 It has to work without copying the boot roms....  3 > You might also want to add some memory (somehow).s  6 Well, I have 18MB in it, so that should be acceptable.  A > The whole might be doomed if your VXT is one of those that was eF > shipped with a defective floating-point unit.  It might boot but be  > unable to really do anything.i   Waah! I don't hope so.* It works perfectly with the vxt.sys image.  
 Best Regards,a 	Freddyh   --  N Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================D  Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much morenI  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOS    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:40:44 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)  Subject: Re: VXT 2000 with VMS?!2 Message-ID: <wc037.573$rc5.39883@news.cpqcorp.net>  { In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107111631140.11106-100000@firewall.freddym.org>, Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org> writes:,  J :unreliable sources were telling me that it is possible to boot a VMS on a :VXT 2000+.a :Is that true?     Not that I am aware of.   :   AFAIK, the VXT2000 is unlike any VAXstation or MicroVAX.  E   This may well be some confusion with the predecessor VT1300 series 1F   X terminals, a model which was a hardware variant of the VAXstation     3100 model 38 SPX workstation.  5 :It would be cool to have a VXT2000+ in a VMS-ClusterC  E   For some definitions of "cool", of course.  Mine involves having a UF   new [censored] system booted into the local cluster.  Whoops, sorry,   can't talk about that. :-)  F   As for some of the other VXT questions, the VXT software and related#   stuff is on the OpenVMS Freeware.a    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:32:51 GMT  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either' Message-ID: <3B4BF312.D656691D@home.nl>h   Neil Rieck wrote:N  4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9i3d7n$n8v$1@pyrite.mv.net... > >uF > > McKinley is expected to be about twice as fast as Itanic, which myI > > not-very-informed impression is should make it about equal in integeryL > > performance to EV69(?) fully-adapted to .18 micron technology (faster on > FP, L > > but most of the non-HPTC world can't make very much use of that).  GivenI > > that the performance-enhancement path *beyond* McKinley is to say thel > leasteM > > murky (unlike that for Alpha beyond EV7), McKinley would have to blow thenJ > > doors off the above expectations just to stay even with EV7, let alone > form/ > > a base from which IA64 could challenge EV8.n > >e
 > > - bill >t! > Check out work unit returns at:i0 > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/totals.htmlJ > and you'll see that most P2 and P3 based PCs hold their own against most9 > high priced RISC chips (except newer Alphas of course).o  K I'm afraid these figures don't say anything about the real potential of theuN different CPU's. The executables are not optimized for the cpu in question. ItN seems seti is using their own mathematical libraries. They are more interested> in 100% compatibilaty for the results, than for maximum speed.  L Compaq recompiled the Tru64 code with their own optimized libraries, and gotE results that are much, much better than with the standard executable.r       > But PCs have little L > to do with the high end server market that Compaq continually talks about.* > What is more important is I/O bandwidth. >oL > People should be paying more attention to things like 64-bit chip sets andC > 64-bit peripherals doing 64-bit DMA's. When CPU speed is requirediN > (application servers, SQL servers, CGI), connecting four CPUs "SMP style" isN > more practical than spending big bucks trying to get a single CPU to go fourJ > times faster. EV7's glueless SMP means new Alpha chips will talk to eachL > other faster and cheaper (but Compaq is ready to walk away from Alpha just' > as they're about to turn the corner).  >eN > I'm worried that it may be quite sometime before a full compliment of 64-bitK > peripherals are adapted for the IA-64 world. Manufacturers probably won'ttH > jump into this marketplace until IA-64 machines are more popular. WhenN > McKinley is available will the required supporting technology also be ready? >5 > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,c > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/eB > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:54:22 -0400V' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>.4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either( Message-ID: <9igsvl$lmv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message5 news:cHg17.29268$g92.3756535@news20.bellglobal.com...    ...u  ! > Check out work unit returns at: 0 > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/totals.htmlJ > and you'll see that most P2 and P3 based PCs hold their own against most9 > high priced RISC chips (except newer Alphas of course).t  K What a perfect set-up for a question I just asked over in comp.arch (but isd very relevant here as well):  K Implicit in the suggestion that it makes sense to widen the address bus (as=J the Xeon has done) rather than just jump straight to a 64-bit architectureH when more than 4 GB of physical memory becomes desirable for desktop useL (though 2009 is far enough out that it may be a bit premature to devote muchL thought to this area) is the assumption that one pays a noticeable price forG using a full 64-bit architecture on a chip when a 32-bit processor core1K would have sufficed.  This also goes along with my suspicion that it may be9H easier for 32-bit architectures to post high SPEC scores than for 64-bitL architectures (again, because the latter use a lot more chip space for widerL address and data lines, registers, etc., and thus have less real estate leftK over for optimizations and/or wind up being harder to clock as fast because3H they sprawl over a larger chip area).  But this is an area I really knowJ very little about, so I'm hoping someone better-informed will pick this up as a sub-thread.   ***m  H I.e., extrapolating IA32 performance to IA64 may be inadvisable not onlyI because IA64 uses a complex, in-order approach to performance (vs. IA32'saK internal OOO approach) but also simply because of the bit-width differences)E between the architectures.  But as I said I'm no hardware engineer...y   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:46:07 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>l4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either; Message-ID: <OjU27.22636$as2.1178167@news20.bellglobal.com>   + "Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in message,! news:3B4BF312.D656691D@home.nl...P >S >E > Neil Rieck wrote:r >r6 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message& > > news:9i3d7n$n8v$1@pyrite.mv.net... [snip] > >o# > > Check out work unit returns at:.2 > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/totals.htmlL > > and you'll see that most P2 and P3 based PCs hold their own against most; > > high priced RISC chips (except newer Alphas of course).e > I > I'm afraid these figures don't say anything about the real potential ofS thetC > different CPU's. The executables are not optimized for the cpu inI question. ItE > seems seti is using their own mathematical libraries. They are more 
 interested@ > in 100% compatibilaty for the results, than for maximum speed. >sJ > Compaq recompiled the Tru64 code with their own optimized libraries, and gotlG > results that are much, much better than with the standard executable.s >o   You are partly correct.u  I 1. When I said that some PCs hold their own against most high priced RISCfH chips, I was speaking only of special case "compute bound tasks" runningE from cache with few interrupts. No one believes that PCs have the I/OO: bandwidth of larger systems like Alpha minis (any flavor).  K 2. I was lead to believe that the two Compaq employees (Jeff Friedrichs andgJ Burns Fisher) who did the SETI client for Alpha produced two versions. TheH public version is generic and was compiled without using the "/tune=EV?"J switch. The Compaq "internal employee use" version uses routines from CPMLK and/or CPML (see  http://www.compaq.com/math/ ) to get things going faster.sL But Alpha still has the best results of anything seen at that SETI web site.J Just check out http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/cpus.html and lookL down column "Average CPU time per work unit" for the lowest values. I see anI Alpha EV67 at "1 Hour 1 Minute" (from Compaq "internal employee use" SETIrI clients; rumor has it that the SETI folk asked Compaq to stop using theseiJ special clients for fear that their official sponsor (SUN) would get PO'd)  C 3. I don't think the SETI folk have anything to do with the variouscL implementations. They did provide the source code and specified the floatingI point precision and type (IEEE). Since VAX didn't have native support foruI IEEE floats, and the software emulation produced horrible return times (I!H was told "worse than a 120 MHz vanilla Pentium"), a VAX client was never	 released.a  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,t Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ @ http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 05:25:58 -0400T) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>o4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either; Message-ID: <aVU27.22639$as2.1180745@news20.bellglobal.com>l  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9igsvl$lmv$1@pyrite.mv.net... >m6 > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message7 > news:cHg17.29268$g92.3756535@news20.bellglobal.com...a > ...e# > > Check out work unit returns at:l2 > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/totals.htmlL > > and you'll see that most P2 and P3 based PCs hold their own against most; > > high priced RISC chips (except newer Alphas of course).t >aJ > What a perfect set-up for a question I just asked over in comp.arch (but is > very relevant here as well): >4I > Implicit in the suggestion that it makes sense to widen the address buss (as L > the Xeon has done) rather than just jump straight to a 64-bit architectureJ > when more than 4 GB of physical memory becomes desirable for desktop useI > (though 2009 is far enough out that it may be a bit premature to devotea muchJ > thought to this area) is the assumption that one pays a noticeable price for1I > using a full 64-bit architecture on a chip when a 32-bit processor core J > would have sufficed.  This also goes along with my suspicion that it may beJ > easier for 32-bit architectures to post high SPEC scores than for 64-bitH > architectures (again, because the latter use a lot more chip space for widertI > address and data lines, registers, etc., and thus have less real estated leftE > over for optimizations and/or wind up being harder to clock as fasts becauseeJ > they sprawl over a larger chip area).  But this is an area I really knowL > very little about, so I'm hoping someone better-informed will pick this up > as a sub-thread.  L Let me add that you are collectively speaking about the concepts of "addressJ space size", "data bus size" and "instruction length". IA-64 is based uponK VLIW (very  long instruction word) technology, but not every instruction isnF "very long" (the actual size is determined by the complier). I seem toC remember something about all Alpha instructions being 32-bits wide.n  I I think you'll agree that if your statement about 32-bit processors beinglH faster than 64-bit processors is true, then nobody is going to buy them.   >WJ > I.e., extrapolating IA32 performance to IA64 may be inadvisable not onlyK > because IA64 uses a complex, in-order approach to performance (vs. IA32's A > internal OOO approach) but also simply because of the bit-widtht differenceseG > between the architectures.  But as I said I'm no hardware engineer...1 >3 > - bill >0  : Alpha started using Out of Order Execution (OOE) with EV6.    
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,V Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/d@ http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:02:28 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either( Message-ID: <9ihbgl$smj$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message5 news:aVU27.22639$as2.1180745@news20.bellglobal.com...V   ...   E > Let me add that you are collectively speaking about the concepts ofs "address
 > space size"o   Yes.   , "data bus size"    Yes.    and "instruction length".   No.n   ...   K > I think you'll agree that if your statement about 32-bit processors beingaJ > faster than 64-bit processors is true, then nobody is going to buy them.  H That's not what I said:  what I said was that it seemed likely easier toL obtain fast SPEC results for a given amount of effort and/or chip area usingC 32-bit architecture than using a 64-bit architecture, and similarly 8 easier/cheaper to obtain faster 32-bit code performance.  I 64-bit architectures make sense for tasks that are difficult to shoe-hornpJ into a 32-bit virtual address space.  But my impression (for the reasons I? stated - but as I said I'm no hardware engineer) is that 32-bitsJ architectures make more sense for tasks that *do* fit easily into a 32-bit virtual address space.   ...e  < > Alpha started using Out of Order Execution (OOE) with EV6.  & I know, but I don't see the relevance.   - bill   >  >r > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,e > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ B > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:16:11 GMTb From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either' Message-ID: <3B4C89D7.D53F5349@home.nl>'   Neil Rieck wrote:n  4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9igsvl$lmv$1@pyrite.mv.net... > >t8 > > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message9 > > news:cHg17.29268$g92.3756535@news20.bellglobal.com...o > > ...u% > > > Check out work unit returns at:,4 > > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/totals.htmlN > > > and you'll see that most P2 and P3 based PCs hold their own against most= > > > high priced RISC chips (except newer Alphas of course)., > >uL > > What a perfect set-up for a question I just asked over in comp.arch (but > is  > > very relevant here as well): > >.K > > Implicit in the suggestion that it makes sense to widen the address buso > (astN > > the Xeon has done) rather than just jump straight to a 64-bit architectureL > > when more than 4 GB of physical memory becomes desirable for desktop useK > > (though 2009 is far enough out that it may be a bit premature to devotey > muchL > > thought to this area) is the assumption that one pays a noticeable price > foroK > > using a full 64-bit architecture on a chip when a 32-bit processor core L > > would have sufficed.  This also goes along with my suspicion that it may > beL > > easier for 32-bit architectures to post high SPEC scores than for 64-bitJ > > architectures (again, because the latter use a lot more chip space for > wider3K > > address and data lines, registers, etc., and thus have less real estateV > leftG > > over for optimizations and/or wind up being harder to clock as fastl	 > becausegL > > they sprawl over a larger chip area).  But this is an area I really knowN > > very little about, so I'm hoping someone better-informed will pick this up > > as a sub-thread. > N > Let me add that you are collectively speaking about the concepts of "addressL > space size", "data bus size" and "instruction length". IA-64 is based uponM > VLIW (very  long instruction word) technology, but not every instruction isdH > "very long" (the actual size is determined by the complier). I seem toE > remember something about all Alpha instructions being 32-bits wide.i >iK > I think you'll agree that if your statement about 32-bit processors beingtJ > faster than 64-bit processors is true, then nobody is going to buy them.  P A long, long time ago when the Alpha and VMS 7 were announced, Digital said thatN the only reason for the transformation to a 64 bit architecture was to be ableL to address more memory. They foresaw that databases should have to be loadedL into memory, because disks were simply to slow for high performance databaseK access. They also claimed 32 bit processors could be just as fast as 64 bitMM processors, and I have read such claims more often. I believe that is true, iiP don't see any reason why a 32 bit cpu should be slower than a 64 bit cpu in most cases.       >1 >. > >-L > > I.e., extrapolating IA32 performance to IA64 may be inadvisable not onlyM > > because IA64 uses a complex, in-order approach to performance (vs. IA32's C > > internal OOO approach) but also simply because of the bit-width,
 > differences I > > between the architectures.  But as I said I'm no hardware engineer...h > >p
 > > - bill > >  >i< > Alpha started using Out of Order Execution (OOE) with EV6. >V > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ B > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/compaq_memorial_site.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:47:17 GMT,4 From: "Bill Sherwood" <adkpb@small-town-america.com>> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue7 Message-ID: <Fi037.131$2j2.64022@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>-   Brian,  H Thanks for your help!  I haven't setup the LPR/LPD stuff before this.  I, finally got it working with one exception...I I need to be able to print to the Xerox from the VAX (which works) and be-9 able to select the input paper tray (which doesn't work).aH I'm using "print/parameters=INPUT_TRAY=4 (it won't take "Tray 4"), but I- keep getting printouts from the default tray.eB Tray 4 is our pre-printed letterhead and I'll also need Tray 1 for
 envelopes.   Any help appreciated!!!l   Bill  F "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3b27b566$1@news.si.com...K > >IIRC, all of Xerox's networked copier/printer equipment uses LPR/LPD and  > notyD > >reverse telnet printing.  At least, the Fiery DFE DocuColor40 and	 DocuPrinto > XXX)4 > >"monster" copier could only be used with LPR/LPD. >   > Our Xerox 6135 is fed via LPR. > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comnC > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coml? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >E >n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.382 ************************