1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 17 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 393       Contents:1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ ( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate' Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate   AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUs! Re: Attunity Connect and Oracle 8 ! Re: Attunity Connect and Oracle 8  Basic quesitons from a newbie ! Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie ! Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie ! Re: Compaq have committed suicide 2 Re: Compaq's Road to IPF: A Twenty-Question Survey
 Re: Crypto? Re: DCL arrays, DELETE (was: Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie) . DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration?2 Re: DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration?" Re: DHCP on different Cluster Node
 Re: ftp error   Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.I FW: ScanMail Message: To Sender,sensitive content found and action taken. L Re: FW: ScanMail Message: To Sender,sensitive content found and actiontaken.) Re: Help  Get OpenVMS screen data by ASP  Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64
 Re: Hobbyists 
 Re: Hobbyists 
 RE: Hobbyists 
 RE: Hobbyists 
 RE: Hobbyists  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: InfoServer! Is anyone running ACS 8.6-1S yet?  ISV's and VMS future Re: ISV's and VMS future( Keep your internet usage hidden!!!  89354 Re: Large drive size patches for version 6.2 VAX/VMS4 Re: Large drive size patches for version 6.2 VAX/VMS/ Re: Looking for BA356 8-bit personality modules " looping to delete a directory treeB Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS) OpenVMS Purveyor web server Q  Re: OT: Dr Who. G Please answer a research survey on personal use of the Internet at work  Re: RA7x series disks $ Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.( Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.( Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.( RE: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ RE: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64 Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS error Re: Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS error Re: Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS error! VMS Delete lots of files quickly? % Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly? % Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly? % Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly?  Want 21164 Alpha  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:18:57 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> : Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+2 Message-ID: <A6H47.776$rc5.60315@news.cpqcorp.net>  ? Heck, I haven't gotten over UIS being done instead of GIDIS ;-)   K I've been a professional programmer with various titles, for something like J 24 years.  Frankly, if I could find a way to cut grass on a golf course inI Florida instead of programming for a living... in a heartbeat.  They just F don't pay too well to cut grass, and programming seldom involves heavyI lifting.  Heck, if my wife would agree to leave the Nashua area, I'd even J program in Florida rather than live here in the Great White North.  So, atL this point, I'll go with the flow.  Just as long as I can still have a earlyL tee time during the week in the summer, and a few trips to warmer weather inJ the winter.  Even if that might mean an extra 30 minutes to get to the SUNH office (heck, they just opened one of their "remote" offices in Nashua).  L I'll be happy as a clam to work on VMS until they close us down, lay me off,L my wife decides to move, or I retire.  Right now, they treat me pretty well,I and I can't think of anyplace better to work (short of say, owning a golf D course).  If they kick me out...  Hey, life is change.  Happyness isL enjoying a good cigar, sipping a nice scotch, after an evening with my wife, after a great round of golf.  H BTW - I may not have gotten over the downgrade from UIS to X11, but thatK didn't stop me from working on a lot of X11 stuff - even enthusiasically at J times.  And before you point out my barbs at X11, you should also remember' the unkind words I had for UIS as well.      mulp wrote in message ... A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message - >news:xHF37.690$rc5.47646@news.cpqcorp.net... K >> As a OS developer friend of mine at Sun (no not Andrew ;-) told me once,  >theI >> concepts are all the same, it's just the syntax.  If you can write O/S  >code K >> for VMS, you can write it for UNIX, or for NT.  I don't think many of us  >areI >> worried about becomming Windows application programmers for 1/4 of our  >> salaries. > J >Fred, I think you'll have a hard time lowering your standards so that youJ >would be happy.  I don't think you've gotten over UIS being replaced by XJ >Windows and all the performance and reliability problems that caused, and >that was 15 years ago.  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:33:26 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEENACPAA.tom@kednos.com>   I Well, Fred, just to make you feel real good, PL/I development and support H for VMS and Tru64 is done at Pebble Beach.  But work does get in the way of golf.   > -----Original Message-----< > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]& > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:19 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < > Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ >  > A > Heck, I haven't gotten over UIS being done instead of GIDIS ;-)  > > > I've been a professional programmer with various titles, for > something likeL > 24 years.  Frankly, if I could find a way to cut grass on a golf course inK > Florida instead of programming for a living... in a heartbeat.  They just H > don't pay too well to cut grass, and programming seldom involves heavyK > lifting.  Heck, if my wife would agree to leave the Nashua area, I'd even L > program in Florida rather than live here in the Great White North.  So, atA > this point, I'll go with the flow.  Just as long as I can still  > have a earlyC > tee time during the week in the summer, and a few trips to warmer  > weather inL > the winter.  Even if that might mean an extra 30 minutes to get to the SUNJ > office (heck, they just opened one of their "remote" offices in Nashua). > B > I'll be happy as a clam to work on VMS until they close us down,
 > lay me off, A > my wife decides to move, or I retire.  Right now, they treat me  > pretty well,K > and I can't think of anyplace better to work (short of say, owning a golf F > course).  If they kick me out...  Hey, life is change.  Happyness is@ > enjoying a good cigar, sipping a nice scotch, after an evening > with my wife,  > after a great round of golf. > J > BTW - I may not have gotten over the downgrade from UIS to X11, but that: > didn't stop me from working on a lot of X11 stuff - even > enthusiasically atL > times.  And before you point out my barbs at X11, you should also remember) > the unkind words I had for UIS as well.  >  >  > mulp wrote in message ... C > >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message / > >news:xHF37.690$rc5.47646@news.cpqcorp.net... ? > >> As a OS developer friend of mine at Sun (no not Andrew ;-)  > told me once,  > >theK > >> concepts are all the same, it's just the syntax.  If you can write O/S  > >code B > >> for VMS, you can write it for UNIX, or for NT.  I don't think > many of us > >areK > >> worried about becomming Windows application programmers for 1/4 of our  > >> salaries. > > L > >Fred, I think you'll have a hard time lowering your standards so that youL > >would be happy.  I don't think you've gotten over UIS being replaced by XL > >Windows and all the performance and reliability problems that caused, and > >that was 15 years ago.  > >  > >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:05:55 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+3 Message-ID: <79uziyPWZuTn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   A Is it true there are no-ops inserted in the PL/I compiler to make 4 each compile take as long as a round of golf ?   :-)  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEENACPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes: K > Well, Fred, just to make you feel real good, PL/I development and support J > for VMS and Tru64 is done at Pebble Beach.  But work does get in the way
 > of golf. >  >> -----Original Message----- = >> From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com] ' >> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:19 PM  >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com= >> Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+  >> >>B >> Heck, I haven't gotten over UIS being done instead of GIDIS ;-) >>? >> I've been a professional programmer with various titles, for  >> something like M >> 24 years.  Frankly, if I could find a way to cut grass on a golf course in L >> Florida instead of programming for a living... in a heartbeat.  They justI >> don't pay too well to cut grass, and programming seldom involves heavy L >> lifting.  Heck, if my wife would agree to leave the Nashua area, I'd evenM >> program in Florida rather than live here in the Great White North.  So, at B >> this point, I'll go with the flow.  Just as long as I can still >> have a early D >> tee time during the week in the summer, and a few trips to warmer
 >> weather in M >> the winter.  Even if that might mean an extra 30 minutes to get to the SUN K >> office (heck, they just opened one of their "remote" offices in Nashua).  >>C >> I'll be happy as a clam to work on VMS until they close us down,  >> lay me off,B >> my wife decides to move, or I retire.  Right now, they treat me >> pretty well, L >> and I can't think of anyplace better to work (short of say, owning a golfG >> course).  If they kick me out...  Hey, life is change.  Happyness is A >> enjoying a good cigar, sipping a nice scotch, after an evening  >> with my wife, >> after a great round of golf.  >>K >> BTW - I may not have gotten over the downgrade from UIS to X11, but that ; >> didn't stop me from working on a lot of X11 stuff - even  >> enthusiasically at M >> times.  And before you point out my barbs at X11, you should also remember * >> the unkind words I had for UIS as well. >> >> >> mulp wrote in message ...D >> >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message0 >> >news:xHF37.690$rc5.47646@news.cpqcorp.net...@ >> >> As a OS developer friend of mine at Sun (no not Andrew ;-) >> told me once, >> >the L >> >> concepts are all the same, it's just the syntax.  If you can write O/S >> >codeC >> >> for VMS, you can write it for UNIX, or for NT.  I don't think 
 >> many of us  >> >are L >> >> worried about becomming Windows application programmers for 1/4 of our >> >> salaries.  >> >M >> >Fred, I think you'll have a hard time lowering your standards so that you M >> >would be happy.  I don't think you've gotten over UIS being replaced by X M >> >Windows and all the performance and reliability problems that caused, and  >> >that was 15 years ago. >> > >> > >> >> >  --  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:16:15 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOENFCPAA.tom@kednos.com>   I Actually, you don't have to insert no-ops, at least on Alpha, just run in K 21064 mode, where c = a + b takes (IIRC) 19 clock ticks, if they are 16 bit 	 integers.   J I am just now looking over the IA-64 instructions to see how we can do the same there :-))    > -----Original Message-----B > From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam]% > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 3:06 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < > Subject: RE: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ >  > C > Is it true there are no-ops inserted in the PL/I compiler to make 6 > each compile take as long as a round of golf ?   :-) > ? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEENACPAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom ! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes: A > > Well, Fred, just to make you feel real good, PL/I development 
 > and support L > > for VMS and Tru64 is done at Pebble Beach.  But work does get in the way > > of golf. > >  > >> -----Original Message----- ? > >> From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com] ) > >> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:19 PM  > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com? > >> Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+  > >> > >>D > >> Heck, I haven't gotten over UIS being done instead of GIDIS ;-) > >>A > >> I've been a professional programmer with various titles, for  > >> something like @ > >> 24 years.  Frankly, if I could find a way to cut grass on a > golf course inC > >> Florida instead of programming for a living... in a heartbeat.  >  They justK > >> don't pay too well to cut grass, and programming seldom involves heavy ? > >> lifting.  Heck, if my wife would agree to leave the Nashua  > area, I'd even@ > >> program in Florida rather than live here in the Great White > North.  So, atD > >> this point, I'll go with the flow.  Just as long as I can still > >> have a early F > >> tee time during the week in the summer, and a few trips to warmer > >> weather in @ > >> the winter.  Even if that might mean an extra 30 minutes to > get to the SUNA > >> office (heck, they just opened one of their "remote" offices 
 > in Nashua).  > >>E > >> I'll be happy as a clam to work on VMS until they close us down,  > >> lay me off,D > >> my wife decides to move, or I retire.  Right now, they treat me > >> pretty well, @ > >> and I can't think of anyplace better to work (short of say, > owning a golf I > >> course).  If they kick me out...  Hey, life is change.  Happyness is C > >> enjoying a good cigar, sipping a nice scotch, after an evening  > >> with my wife,! > >> after a great round of golf.  > >>? > >> BTW - I may not have gotten over the downgrade from UIS to  > X11, but that = > >> didn't stop me from working on a lot of X11 stuff - even  > >> enthusiasically at A > >> times.  And before you point out my barbs at X11, you should  > also remember , > >> the unkind words I had for UIS as well. > >> > >> > >> mulp wrote in message ...F > >> >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message2 > >> >news:xHF37.690$rc5.47646@news.cpqcorp.net...B > >> >> As a OS developer friend of mine at Sun (no not Andrew ;-) > >> told me once,	 > >> >the @ > >> >> concepts are all the same, it's just the syntax.  If you > can write O/S 
 > >> >codeE > >> >> for VMS, you can write it for UNIX, or for NT.  I don't think  > >> many of us 	 > >> >are C > >> >> worried about becomming Windows application programmers for  > 1/4 of our > >> >> salaries.  > >> >C > >> >Fred, I think you'll have a hard time lowering your standardsJ
 > so that you2A > >> >would be happy.  I don't think you've gotten over UIS beingd > replaced by X C > >> >Windows and all the performance and reliability problems that 
 > caused, andd > >> >that was 15 years ago. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >e > --D > ================================================================== > ============7 > Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sune > Microsystems -> ClustersD > ================================================================== > ============ >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:28:16 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c: Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+, Message-ID: <3B5394AE.9AFE9160@videotron.ca>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:uL > don't think the port is a bad idea. However, killing Alpha strikes me (and > many others) as most stupid.    M No, it is not stupic from Compaq's point of view. What was stupid was sellingOM Digital to a vanilla box maker who had no experience with serious systems andeL who had plenty of powerful execs brainwashed with wintel-will-rule-the-world3 (as well as enough Digits that had that mentality).   N It was us that were stupid and naive to beleive that Compaq could/would reallyN do something with Alpha and VMS. The signs were probably there but we probably chose not to see them.  M But in the past months, Compaq has made it clear that it beleives that wintelrL will rule the world. Killing alpha was just one more step in that direction.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:54:37 -0500o* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>: Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well++ Message-ID: <3B539ADD.F4C704A6@prodigy.net>o   Tom Linden wrote:t > K > Actually, you don't have to insert no-ops, at least on Alpha, just run in M > 21064 mode, where c = a + b takes (IIRC) 19 clock ticks, if they are 16 bitS > integers.u > L > I am just now looking over the IA-64 instructions to see how we can do the > same there :-))  > ! I'm sure a way can be found.  <g>n   ><snip>S   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:49:23 -0400e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>d1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 2 Message-ID: <OGG47.775$rc5.60253@news.cpqcorp.net>  9 The pointer below gets an error about it not being found.p  J There are any number of ways that newgroups, and alternatives can be used.K I prefer to not use them for simply venting my spleen.  Nor do I like usingeB them, or seeing them used for "party line" crap.  Participation inJ newsgroups is generally not a career enhancing move, and the downside riskL of saying something you'll regret is high.  What I will say is that I do notK post anything that is knowingly false or misleading.  I would rather simply D not say anything, since participation here isn't something in my jobK description.  I am NOT an official source of information for Compaq, or forlK OpenVMS.  Before making ANY decision based on data provided by me or ANYONE F ELSE in these types of forums, you should validate it through official+ channels, including your sales account rep.I  E I tend to believe that putting your name on something is the ultimaterL assurance as to the quality of the data.  Maybe you know me and trust me notH to bullshit you.  Or maybe you have seen through me and know I'm full ofK shit and just bluffing that I have a clue.  In any case, knowing the source-J helps.  Now *some* of my opinions are based on what other people tell me -L so you have to trust me to to have sorted through the crap.  Hey, people can< lie to me too, and my bullshit detector doesn't always work.  I I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatoH Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point.L You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - but ifL the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you sell -H you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on theJ line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.K He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from thea0 technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's.  K Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How much K in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reports very.i That's the bottom line.t      : Bill Todd wrote in message <9ion0n$cfd$1@pyrite.mv.net>...K >Now that 'vacation' week is over, we're starting to see more participationtK >from Compaq employees supporting Compaq's position.  I'm sure some of themnL >are simply trying to do the best with the hand Compaq has dealt them (whichH >they likely have absolutely no control over), and if I'm a bit blunt inC >responding to some of their more dubious assertions I hope they'llh0 >understand that I'm not mad at them personally. > J >However, we're not hearing from employees on the other side of the issue,G >since they might well consider public airing of their feelings to be aiF >Career-Limiting Move - though here's an exception in comp.arch, who'sG >responding to an indirect report of another exception (both from AlphaeF >engineers refuting the assertion that Alpha might have had difficultyH >keeping up with the IA64 performance-wise, and especially the assertion that= >it was the Alpha engineers themselves who told Compaq this):e >>5 >news:4495ef1f.0107131853.68b45faa@posting.google.como >aK >Anyway:  This post is an invitation to Compaq employees who have somethingnA >they'd like to say on this issue (but are reluctant to do so foriE >career-related reasons) to find some non-Compaq poster to one of theuI >included newsgroups whom they know and trust and convey their sentiments  >indirectly. >'K >I'll be happy to act as a conduit for anyone I know, or anyone vouched forrJ >as being credible by someone I know (though after my 15-year absence fromK >DEC that population is likely pretty small).  But I'm not in a position to J >be able to verify statements (or even Compaq identity) from people I have noI >direct or indirect knowledge of, and unlike Compaq I'm at least a littlel4 >picky in the qualify of the information I disburse. > G >Anyone who doesn't know someone who can act as a conduit can of coursee stilleK >contribute using 'anonymizer'-type facilities, but the lack of any kind oftG >assurance of identity will mean that your post must meet a pretty high H >standard of credibility to avoid being sloughed off as competitive FUD. >bK >I don't know whether the above is a good idea or a lousy one, but the niceIL >thing about it is that it doesn't matter:  if it's a good idea, people will) >respond; if not, it'll just die quietly.I >u >- bill  >  >c >g   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:25:53 -0400i( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicates+ Message-ID: <3B533FC0.4CCA3AD3@bigfoot.com>r  D Have you ever considered running for public office?  I don't believeE I have EVER encountered that many disclaimers in one piece of writinghG with the possible exception of the use of Olestra by Frito-Lay on a bagn: of their fat-free potato chips ("may cause anal leakage").   HM   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > ; > The pointer below gets an error about it not being found.e > L > There are any number of ways that newgroups, and alternatives can be used.M > I prefer to not use them for simply venting my spleen.  Nor do I like using D > them, or seeing them used for "party line" crap.  Participation inL > newsgroups is generally not a career enhancing move, and the downside riskN > of saying something you'll regret is high.  What I will say is that I do notM > post anything that is knowingly false or misleading.  I would rather simply F > not say anything, since participation here isn't something in my jobM > description.  I am NOT an official source of information for Compaq, or foroM > OpenVMS.  Before making ANY decision based on data provided by me or ANYONE H > ELSE in these types of forums, you should validate it through official- > channels, including your sales account rep.  > G > I tend to believe that putting your name on something is the ultimate:N > assurance as to the quality of the data.  Maybe you know me and trust me notJ > to bullshit you.  Or maybe you have seen through me and know I'm full ofM > shit and just bluffing that I have a clue.  In any case, knowing the source L > helps.  Now *some* of my opinions are based on what other people tell me -N > so you have to trust me to to have sorted through the crap.  Hey, people can> > lie to me too, and my bullshit detector doesn't always work. > K > I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatvJ > Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point.N > You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - but ifN > the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you sell -J > you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on theL > line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.M > He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from thea2 > technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's. > M > Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How muchcM > in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reports very.n > That's the bottom line.r > < > Bill Todd wrote in message <9ion0n$cfd$1@pyrite.mv.net>...M > >Now that 'vacation' week is over, we're starting to see more participationnM > >from Compaq employees supporting Compaq's position.  I'm sure some of them-N > >are simply trying to do the best with the hand Compaq has dealt them (whichJ > >they likely have absolutely no control over), and if I'm a bit blunt inE > >responding to some of their more dubious assertions I hope they'll 2 > >understand that I'm not mad at them personally. > >dL > >However, we're not hearing from employees on the other side of the issue,I > >since they might well consider public airing of their feelings to be asH > >Career-Limiting Move - though here's an exception in comp.arch, who'sI > >responding to an indirect report of another exception (both from AlphatH > >engineers refuting the assertion that Alpha might have had difficultyJ > >keeping up with the IA64 performance-wise, and especially the assertion > that? > >it was the Alpha engineers themselves who told Compaq this):> > >w7 > >news:4495ef1f.0107131853.68b45faa@posting.google.comt > >hM > >Anyway:  This post is an invitation to Compaq employees who have somethinguC > >they'd like to say on this issue (but are reluctant to do so foruG > >career-related reasons) to find some non-Compaq poster to one of the K > >included newsgroups whom they know and trust and convey their sentiments  > >indirectly. > >,M > >I'll be happy to act as a conduit for anyone I know, or anyone vouched foryL > >as being credible by someone I know (though after my 15-year absence fromM > >DEC that population is likely pretty small).  But I'm not in a position to L > >be able to verify statements (or even Compaq identity) from people I have > noK > >direct or indirect knowledge of, and unlike Compaq I'm at least a little 6 > >picky in the qualify of the information I disburse. > >tI > >Anyone who doesn't know someone who can act as a conduit can of course. > stilleM > >contribute using 'anonymizer'-type facilities, but the lack of any kind of0I > >assurance of identity will mean that your post must meet a pretty highuJ > >standard of credibility to avoid being sloughed off as competitive FUD. > >,M > >I don't know whether the above is a good idea or a lousy one, but the nicewN > >thing about it is that it doesn't matter:  if it's a good idea, people will+ > >respond; if not, it'll just die quietly.g > >r	 > >- billf > >  > >  > >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:52:19 +0100d, From: Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate>G Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0107162040280.3839-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>n   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  >>M > > I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue that=L > > Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point.P > > You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - but ifP > > the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you sell -L > > you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on theN > > line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.O > > He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from the 4 > > technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's. > >lO > > Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How much4O > > in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reports very.g > > That's the bottom line.e >m  ) On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:e  F > Have you ever considered running for public office?  I don't believeG > I have EVER encountered that many disclaimers in one piece of writingeI > with the possible exception of the use of Olestra by Frito-Lay on a bagk< > of their fat-free potato chips ("may cause anal leakage"). >N > HM >I   Easy to say from a distance:  F this is a candidate for the most objective post I've seen on the issueE from Compaq employees. Given the situation who wouldn't disclaim leftd right and centre? Cheers Fred.  E My only comment is that the above argument presupposes that IA64 will 6 attain the volumes of x86, wich may or may not happen.B If, for the sake of argument, IA64 volumes don't take off how much patience will intel have?e   Peter    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:57:42 -0400n5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatei2 Message-ID: <SGH47.781$rc5.60600@news.cpqcorp.net>    Peter Boyle wrote in message ... >uF >My only comment is that the above argument presupposes that IA64 will7 >attain the volumes of x86, wich may or may not happen.yC >If, for the sake of argument, IA64 volumes don't take off how muchl >patience will intel have? >     H OK.  I'll bite.  Say it flops, and Intel decides to abandon it but stillK needs a 64 bit architecture... wait a minute, gee - they could always buildw Alpha chips ;-)s  J Odds are that after the money they've thrown and are throwing at IPF, they will make it a success.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:55:02 -0400n5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>c1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 2 Message-ID: <lEH47.780$rc5.60491@news.cpqcorp.net>  < Nope.  In person I'm too inclined to call someone an asshole to their face.  And have.r  4 Lots of disclaimers.  Yup.  Here, I'll boil it down.  6     o Nobody here gets paid to read/write these groups:     o Little upside benefits to it, lots of downside risksG     o I ain't the Oracle.  I don't have divine knowledge.  It's just myi opinioniH     o Don't take my word, or anyone elses, for anything without a way to validate it.B     o I don't lie.  Of course I could be misinformed, and have bad information.H     o Anonymous stuff may sound more honest, but you don't know how much         weight to assign it.D     o Expect conflicting information.  This is the friggin Internet. Everyone,         is entitled to at least one opinion.    A Hamlyn Mootoo wrote in message <3B533FC0.4CCA3AD3@bigfoot.com>...nE >Have you ever considered running for public office?  I don't believe6F >I have EVER encountered that many disclaimers in one piece of writingH >with the possible exception of the use of Olestra by Frito-Lay on a bag; >of their fat-free potato chips ("may cause anal leakage").  >> >HM  >> >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:e >>< >> The pointer below gets an error about it not being found. >>G >> There are any number of ways that newgroups, and alternatives can be  used.oH >> I prefer to not use them for simply venting my spleen.  Nor do I like usingiE >> them, or seeing them used for "party line" crap.  Participation inkH >> newsgroups is generally not a career enhancing move, and the downside riskK >> of saying something you'll regret is high.  What I will say is that I dor not.G >> post anything that is knowingly false or misleading.  I would rather= simplyG >> not say anything, since participation here isn't something in my jobmJ >> description.  I am NOT an official source of information for Compaq, or for=G >> OpenVMS.  Before making ANY decision based on data provided by me or- ANYONEI >> ELSE in these types of forums, you should validate it through official<. >> channels, including your sales account rep. >>H >> I tend to believe that putting your name on something is the ultimateK >> assurance as to the quality of the data.  Maybe you know me and trust mee notkK >> to bullshit you.  Or maybe you have seen through me and know I'm full ofoG >> shit and just bluffing that I have a clue.  In any case, knowing thea sourceH >> helps.  Now *some* of my opinions are based on what other people tell me -K >> so you have to trust me to to have sorted through the crap.  Hey, peoplen canD? >> lie to me too, and my bullshit detector doesn't always work.d >>L >> I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatK >> Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point. L >> You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - but ifH >> the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you sell -K >> you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on the D >> line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.J >> He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from the 3 >> technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's.s >>I >> Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  Howi muchH >> in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reports very.r >> That's the bottom line. >>= >> Bill Todd wrote in message <9ion0n$cfd$1@pyrite.mv.net>... @ >> >Now that 'vacation' week is over, we're starting to see more
 participation0I >> >from Compaq employees supporting Compaq's position.  I'm sure some ofp themH >> >are simply trying to do the best with the hand Compaq has dealt them (whichK >> >they likely have absolutely no control over), and if I'm a bit blunt in F >> >responding to some of their more dubious assertions I hope they'll3 >> >understand that I'm not mad at them personally.I >> >F >> >However, we're not hearing from employees on the other side of the issue,J >> >since they might well consider public airing of their feelings to be aI >> >Career-Limiting Move - though here's an exception in comp.arch, who'soJ >> >responding to an indirect report of another exception (both from AlphaI >> >engineers refuting the assertion that Alpha might have had difficultyiK >> >keeping up with the IA64 performance-wise, and especially the assertionM >> thate@ >> >it was the Alpha engineers themselves who told Compaq this): >> >8 >> >news:4495ef1f.0107131853.68b45faa@posting.google.com >> >D >> >Anyway:  This post is an invitation to Compaq employees who have	 something D >> >they'd like to say on this issue (but are reluctant to do so forH >> >career-related reasons) to find some non-Compaq poster to one of theL >> >included newsgroups whom they know and trust and convey their sentiments >> >indirectly.c >> >J >> >I'll be happy to act as a conduit for anyone I know, or anyone vouched forpH >> >as being credible by someone I know (though after my 15-year absence fromK >> >DEC that population is likely pretty small).  But I'm not in a position' toH >> >be able to verify statements (or even Compaq identity) from people I have >> norL >> >direct or indirect knowledge of, and unlike Compaq I'm at least a little7 >> >picky in the qualify of the information I disburse.h >> >J >> >Anyone who doesn't know someone who can act as a conduit can of course >> stillK >> >contribute using 'anonymizer'-type facilities, but the lack of any kindl ofJ >> >assurance of identity will mean that your post must meet a pretty highK >> >standard of credibility to avoid being sloughed off as competitive FUD.e >> >I >> >I don't know whether the above is a good idea or a lousy one, but thei niceJ >> >thing about it is that it doesn't matter:  if it's a good idea, people will, >> >respond; if not, it'll just die quietly. >> >
 >> >- bill >> > >> > >> >   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:08:26 -0400o( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate + Message-ID: <3B5349BA.40EAC077@bigfoot.com>i  H > this is a candidate for the most objective post I've seen on the issue2                                             ^fence  G > from Compaq employees. Given the situation who wouldn't disclaim leftI  > right and centre? Cheers Fred. > D If I'm going to put my confidence in someone straddling the fence, I@ think it it will Ralph Nader, so at least the fence will be well constructed.   HM   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:23:07 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateo( Message-ID: <9ivi7e$ljf$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:OGG47.775$rc5.60253@news.cpqcorp.net...; > The pointer below gets an error about it not being found.4  F No problem for me right now, but I'll append it below for anyone who'sB interested and couldn't retrieve it (perhaps I should have done soE originally, but the habit of using pointers when possible dies hard).    ...p  K > I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatvJ > Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point.K > You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - butw ifG > the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you  sell - > you lose.i  I Not necessarily.  The critical factor is the amount that your higher costm: for that one *component* adds to your total *system* cost.  I The cost of the Alpha processors in a current mid-range-or-up system doesIG not contribute very much to the total system cost (let alone TCO).  And E we've already been assured that future IA64 systems will have all the H goodies that current Alpha systems have - just different processors.  SoL *even if* IA64 CPUs eventually have far higher volumes than Alphas (a futureL that Compaq had the opportunity to challenge, since it's not clear that IA64J will ever do *anything* - save possibly for FP or crypto - better than oneH or another of the available alternatives), that won't make a significantL difference to Alpha's price-attractiveness in its bread-and-butter markets -K so if Alpha offered noticeably better performance, it would still win thereR (if marketed...).a   ...   H > Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How much( > in the lead... thats a tough question.  L Which is why competition is a Good Thing - both for the species, and for (at- least most of) the individual products in it.r  %   How costly?  From all reports very.e  K It's been quantified:  we don't have to guess.  And the cost Winkler stated J ($300 million annually) is well within Compaq's ability to make a handsomeJ profit on the result (it's not as if Compaq made so much higher profits inF other areas that this one appeared unattractive - rather the reverse).   > That's the bottom line.o  L Apparently not.  The bottom line appears to be that regardless of its profitL potential this was a business Compaq did not wish to be in.  That's an issueL for its shareholders, however:  the issue for its customers is the manner in1 which it went about getting out of that business.    - bill   [reference appended below]  D kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote in message/ news:<gtpsrSYD9JOV@eisner.encompasserve.org>...mH > In article <9hhtur$1oj9$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:lC > > In article <8PS_6.265783$p33.5339568@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,u& > >  "Bill" <billmuy@home.com> writes: > > |>K > > |>                       My guess is that in its history, Alpha had toodJ > > |> many engineers and not enough MBAs making program-impact decisions. > >eI > > I would have thought it was the other way around.  Somehow I doubt itcJ > > was the engineers who decided ti kill it.  And you have to admit, whenH > > it comes to impact, Monday had the biggest impact of anything on the
 > > Alpha. >oL > At a LUG meeting this week, we were told by a compaQ person that the alphaJ > engineers said that they didn't think they could keep up with what Intel was L > doing, and brought that up the management chain themselves. But that's not0 > what I've heard from the engineers themselves.  > This is a complete and total FABRICATION on the part of Compaq> management.  Anyone who believes these cowardly words probably deserves to be lied to.I   Brannon Batson Alpha Development Groupe   (not speaking for Compaq)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:37:19 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate ( Message-ID: <9ivj22$ma9$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messagen% news:3B5349BA.40EAC077@bigfoot.com...oJ > > this is a candidate for the most objective post I've seen on the issue4 >                                             ^fence >NI > > from Compaq employees. Given the situation who wouldn't disclaim left " > > right and centre? Cheers Fred. > >qF > If I'm going to put my confidence in someone straddling the fence, IB > think it it will Ralph Nader, so at least the fence will be well > constructed.  K I believe I've demonstrated that I'm no friend of Compaq apologists in thisuI matter.  But I agree with Peter that this was a very reasonable post fromaB someone in at best a possibly awkward position.  I don't know FredK personally (though I think I've met him), but I do respect him technically.rI I believe some of his non-technical assertions are questionable, and I've L questioned them, but overall I class him as one of the Good Guys rather thanK with the Houston corporate contingent that I'd like to see be the target of F the next Compaq layoff (if that's the appropriate term for a fork-lift upgrade starting with the CEO).    >l > HM   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Jul 2001 21:15:01 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatep$ Message-ID: <9ivlgl$gu@web.nmti.com>  2 In article <SGH47.781$rc5.60600@news.cpqcorp.net>,4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:J > OK.  I'll bite.  Say it flops, and Intel decides to abandon it but still  > needs a 64 bit architecture...  H They are likely to bolt another bag on the side of the x86 in that case,G because the most likely reason for IA64 flopping that badly is internala+ competition from their 32-bit architecture.u   -- i+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.iE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."mL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:15:53 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen).1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatea3 Message-ID: <SPVZGzKByHGB@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  v In article <Pine.SOL.4.33.0107162040280.3839-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>, Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes: >  >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:t >> >>N >> > I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatM >> > Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to a point.tQ >> > You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world - but if-Q >> > the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you sell -oM >> > you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on theDO >> > line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.gP >> > He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from the5 >> > technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's.t >> >P >> > Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How muchP >> > in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reports very. >> > That's the bottom line.  H > this is a candidate for the most objective post I've seen on the issueG > from Compaq employees. Given the situation who wouldn't disclaim left   > right and centre? Cheers Fred. > G > My only comment is that the above argument presupposes that IA64 willr8 > attain the volumes of x86, wich may or may not happen.D > If, for the sake of argument, IA64 volumes don't take off how much > patience will intel have?e >  > Petero  C If VMS is ported to IA64 and IA64 is overwhelmed in the marketplaceMA by IBM's Power CPUs, VMS will have become that much more portabledA for porting to Power.  Alpha has not won the hearts of the world,eB despite performance.  If IA64 fails to win the hearts of the worldA despite intense marketing, it does not mean that Alpha would havee? been the successor.  But VMS does need a 64-bit environment forI& the future (even though I prefer VAX).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:12:00 +0100m+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>'1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate ' Message-ID: <3B5358A0.B8D7F22E@iee.org>t   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:G > I tend to believe that putting your name on something is the ultimateaN > assurance as to the quality of the data.  Maybe you know me and trust me not   I'd agree with that.  J > you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on theL > line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to believe.M > He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from thel2 > technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's.  " I guess you cannot name the source  (otherwise you would have done).  ( But if you could name him, would we know him (at least by reputation)?e  $ I guess he won't make the statements publically??  . OK. One out of three was worth asking I guess!   Antonio    --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:40:01 -0400h' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate-( Message-ID: <9ivmno$prf$1@pyrite.mv.net>  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:SPVZGzKByHGB@eisner.encompasserve.org...sI > In article <Pine.SOL.4.33.0107162040280.3839-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,i. Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes:   ...   I > > My only comment is that the above argument presupposes that IA64 willy: > > attain the volumes of x86, wich may or may not happen.F > > If, for the sake of argument, IA64 volumes don't take off how much > > patience will intel have?I > >u	 > > Petern >iE > If VMS is ported to IA64 and IA64 is overwhelmed in the marketplace C > by IBM's Power CPUs, VMS will have become that much more portabledC > for porting to Power.  Alpha has not won the hearts of the world,n > despite performance.  K Alpha won a great many hearts, from what we've seen on Usenet over the pastTK few weeks.  What it lacked were anything like commensurate sales - and thatpJ was not Alpha's fault, but its owner's for lackadaisical marketing and (as, we now know) highly-questionable commitment.  .   If IA64 fails to win the hearts of the worldC > despite intense marketing, it does not mean that Alpha would havee > been the successor.f  L Alpha wouldn't have had to have been 'the successor' to have made Compaq farH greater profit than anything else seems at all likely to:  it would justD have had to have had a half-decent slice of the market in which it's8 currently moderately profitable despite lousy marketing.  ,   But VMS does need a 64-bit environment for( > the future (even though I prefer VAX).  H Only because Compaq just killed the perfectly good 64-bit environment it already had.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:09:17 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brI0 Subject: Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicateL Message-ID: <OF0BCFD091.FDB247A8-ON03256A8B.006E2CAD@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   What I think is :e    H If Itanium become an unsucessfull processor, the customers will not jumpI to Alpha as an option for 64 bits.  They will turn back to the Unisys CMP  ES7000J (and their clones) and Windows 2000 Datacenter .....  or the RIP (Retired) Compaq ML 770 .<   Unisys:l3 http://www.unisys.com/hw/servers/es7000/default.aspo   Compaq:a5 http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliantml770/s   Regardso   FC        = Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> em 16/07/2001 16:52:19h  8 Favor responder a Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt      0 Assunto: Re: Alpha: an invitation to communicate       > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >e >sH > > I'm absolutely sure that you can and will find people who will argue thatE > > Alpha was superior to IA64.  In fact, I'll agree with that - to ai point.I > > You can build the most elegant, fastest, coolest thing in the world -f but ifI > > the dominant player is selling a million of them to every 10 that you  sell -H > > you lose.  The one guy who I can't imagine putting his reputation on thetE > > line to feed me bullshit, and who was involved - I have chosen to  believe.K > > He says that this was an unexpected answer to a question that came from  thea4 > > technical leaders in the company, not the MBA's. > >lJ > > Given the resources I think we could have kept Alpha in the lead.  How muchI > > in the lead... thats a tough question.  How costly?  From all reportst very.s > > That's the bottom line.s >t  ) On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:o  F > Have you ever considered running for public office?  I don't believeG > I have EVER encountered that many disclaimers in one piece of writingeI > with the possible exception of the use of Olestra by Frito-Lay on a bagr< > of their fat-free potato chips ("may cause anal leakage"). >l > HM >p   Easy to say from a distance:  F this is a candidate for the most objective post I've seen on the issueE from Compaq employees. Given the situation who wouldn't disclaim lefto right and centre? Cheers Fred.  E My only comment is that the above argument presupposes that IA64 will 6 attain the volumes of x86, wich may or may not happen.B If, for the sake of argument, IA64 volumes don't take off how much patience will intel have?h   Peterw   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:30:27 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)) Subject: AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUs 2 Message-ID: <nhH47.778$rc5.60491@news.cpqcorp.net>  I   Since I haven't seen this mentioned amid the blizzard of IPF threads...t  L   The One (1) Gigahertz (GHz) AlphaServer GS series marketing and technical    information is available at:  4     http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/platforms.html  J   The CPU involved uses Alpha EV68-class microprocessors running at 1 GHz.  H   We now return you to our regularly-scheduled newsgroup discussions of    Intel IPF systems...    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:27:08 -0500.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r* Subject: Re: Attunity Connect and Oracle 8' Message-ID: <3B53946C.40F98525@fsi.net>n   Eric Ebinger wrote:d >  > ----- Original Message -----1 > From: David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>b >  > > Eric Ebinger wrote:d > > >kF > > > And how, pray tell, do you have a Java application running on an
 > AlphaservernA > > > (VMS) talk to the Rdb database running on said Alphaserver?c > >iE > > The same way any other app. on any other machine would access it?o > >d > E > Have you done this?  Java application running on VMS talking to Rdb F > database running on VMS?  I would be very interested in the details.  F Are you saying that it is impossible for a Java application running on, VMS to talk to Rdb database running on VMS?   B ...or only for a Java application running on VMS to talk to an Rdb" database running on the same node?  H If the latter is the case, I'd have to wonder why the former is not also true.a   --   David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systems0 http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:52:07 -0400 * From: Eric Ebinger <eebinger@telocity.com>* Subject: Re: Attunity Connect and Oracle 88 Message-ID: <000c01c10e63$17988ff0$0200a8c0@teamrdb.com>   ----- Original Message -----/ From: David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r  H > Are you saying that it is impossible for a Java application running on- > VMS to talk to Rdb database running on VMS?  >oD > ...or only for a Java application running on VMS to talk to an Rdb$ > database running on the same node? >aJ > If the latter is the case, I'd have to wonder why the former is not also > true.i >h  G I did not mean to imply that it was possible to have a Java applicationh> running on VMS talk to a Rdb database on a different VMS node.  H It is possible to a Java application running on a Windoze system talk toA a Rdb database running on VMS by using a JDBC-ODBC bridge to talkiG to the ODBC driver for Rdb.  I am not aware of any "out of the box" wayeI to have a Java application running on VMS talk to a Rdb database. (OraclehG does not have a native JDBC driver for Rdb.)   My understanding is thatlK the Attunity "On Platform" package makes it possible for a Java application ; running on VMS to access an Oracle 7/8 database but the "OnlK Platform" package does not include support for Rdb databases.  To make thiscL really offensive Attunity Connect does support Rdb as a datasource for their( full Attunity Connect package (for $$$).     Eric Ebinger   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 12:59:00 -0700# From: paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty)e& Subject: Basic quesitons from a newbie= Message-ID: <14ce1c21.0107161159.24e66526@posting.google.com>e   hello.  < i am new to vms but have worked with unix for several years.  ? question 1.  in unix if i want to delete a directory continaingcE subdirectories and files, i can force the delete command to do that.  D can this be done in vms.  from looking at help delete, i don't see a6 similar option is there another command used for this?  F question 2.  i have searched the documentation for the array structure= in DCL but have found nothing.  i did find some documentation E indicating that typical array stuctures are not available in DCL.  ishD there another clever way to be able to establish a list of items andA then loop through them to apply an operation or some other usefulC task?a   thanks,h   nick   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:23:09 -0400r- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>y* Subject: Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie( Message-ID: <3B534D1C.70854577@ohio.edu>   Nick Paszty wrote:   > hello. > > > i am new to vms but have worked with unix for several years. > A > question 1.  in unix if i want to delete a directory continaingtF > subdirectories and files, i can force the delete command to do that.F > can this be done in vms.  from looking at help delete, i don't see a8 > similar option is there another command used for this?   > [snip]  9 Working from memory, certainly close, maybe even correct.s  
 start with   $ DELETE [.foo...]*.*.*5  C to delete all files in the FOO sub-directory of the current default H directory, and all contained sub-directories of it.  It will generate anI error message for each directory, unless you have special privileges, but  it will delete the files.l   then  ' $ SET FILE [.foo...]*.dir.1/PROT=O:RWEDw $ DELETE [.foo...]*.*.*   F will generate error messages about non-empty directories, if there areG nested directories.  Repeat the command until all are deleted (up-arrow.F should recall the command, so repeating it takes only two keystrokes).   finally     $ SET FILE FOO.DIR.1/PROT=O:RWED $ DELETE FOO.DIR.1  H There are probably more elegant ways, but I don't do it so often that it has been a problem.s                       RDPm --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:33:00 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)a* Subject: Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie3 Message-ID: <u0lsgwVuLNLf@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  c In article <14ce1c21.0107161159.24e66526@posting.google.com>, paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty) writes:j  H > question 2.  i have searched the documentation for the array structure? > in DCL but have found nothing.  i did find some documentationwG > indicating that typical array stuctures are not available in DCL.  isfF > there another clever way to be able to establish a list of items andC > then loop through them to apply an operation or some other usefuls > task?   , There is no built-in array structure in DCL.  G DCL lexical functions like F$CONTEXT are designed more for finding eacha> item of the list and acting on it before finding the next one.  C For cases where this is inappropriate, a common approach is to make > up dynamic DCL symbol names by combining some fixed part like:   	PREFIX_  B with some increasing numeric value from a symbol.  Exactly when toA use & and when to use ' in dereferencing symbols requires readingcC the User's Manual from the documentation quite thoroughly, and alsoC# typically a bit of experimentation.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:27:14 -0400-5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>1* Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicide2 Message-ID: <1mG47.770$rc5.60533@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Why?  Did the VAX -> Alpha migration mean this?  Do you *really* care if theH platform you are running is "Alpha Inside"?  What if we had been able toI build a VAX as fast as an Alpha?  The commitment is to OpenVMS.  So underdJ the covers, it'll be some other architecture - as long as it's VMS *do youG really care*?  Yes, there are some issues about how to get from here toiK there, but we are giving you are assurance that our intent is to make it as-J simple as compile-and-go (no source changes) - and even the possibility ofE binary emulation for code that cannot be recompiled for one reason or  another.  K We're not killing the Alpha any more than the VAX.  Just phasing it out for-J future systems.  You'll still get support.  New versions.  Mixed clusters.  J And we gave you a lot of lead time, and the promise of a new generation ofL faster, bigger, better systems before new Alpha platform development ceases.  % Duncan Macdonald wrote in message ...1: >By dropping the Alpha in the manner that they did, Compaq< >have shown that they are not committed to long term support" >and development of their systems. ...n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:13:51 GMTI4 From: norman@nose.cs.utoronto.edu.ca (Norman Wilson); Subject: Re: Compaq's Road to IPF: A Twenty-Question Surveyi8 Message-ID: <GGL1J3.35I@campus-news-reading.utoronto.ca>  - Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: @ >At least one of the questions needed more options for answers.    Here are two more:  G Questions 19 and 20 ask `Which vendor can best attract (Tru64 UNIX|VMS)sD users who plan to switch platforms?'.  For each question, there is aJ list of five vendors, and you must select exactly one.  Which means nobodyH can give the obviously reasonable answer that different users are likelyJ to pick different vendors according to need.  In fact, the last site whereK I used Tru64 would likely migrate in several directions: to SGI or possiblysM Sun for large-system HPC needs, to various UNIX vendors and to Intel hardwarec2 running Linux for smaller-scale and desktop needs.  J There should at least be a `none of the above' answer.  It would be better. to allow multiple boxes to be checked as well.  J Not everyone who uses Alpha does so because they're stuck in the dark agesL of single-vendor loyalty, after all.  (The site in question had systems fromH Compaq, Sun, SGI, and several sorts of Intel box in service in different< ways; most of the Intel systems ran Linux, but some ran NT.)  
 Norman Wilson  -- e  To reply directly, expel `.edu'.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:06:07 -0400o) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>e Subject: Re: Cryptod9 Message-ID: <VrK47.9456$oh4.928691@news20.bellglobal.com>   F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:ALr1KAS0a9hd@eisner.encompasserve.org...r [snip] >gH > Steven Levy gave a keynote talk at the RSA conference this past April.G > He discussed the book (and autographed copies later) but in that talktE > there was no discussion of the part of the book which described the L > loosening of Jim Bidzos' connection to RSA (Data) Security (Incorporated).! > I certainly recommend the book.I  G Now you've got my interest piqued because I'm not that far in the book.nF There does seem to be a very cozy relationship between the NSA and IBMI (X-files watchers and conspiracy theorists probably knew it all along :-) 7 which is then linked to why IBM's DES had a 56 bit key.   C p.s. I've lost my original copy of "Hackers: Heroes of the ComputeriI Revolution" (covers lots of stuff at MIT but ends with Berkeley) and haveh just reordered it.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,n Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:35:45 GMT-2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)H Subject: Re: DCL arrays, DELETE (was: Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie)2 Message-ID: <BeI47.786$rc5.60496@news.cpqcorp.net>  c In article <14ce1c21.0107161159.24e66526@posting.google.com>, paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty) writes:r  C   Please target the subject line at the question(s), and not at the1C   questioner -- this will better attract the attention of the folksiB   that know the answer(s) to the question(s), and will (hopefully)C   get you a quicker answer.  For some general details on the sorts yD   of background information that will often be of interest to folks H   (that might be answering your questions), please see the introductory '   sections of the OpenVMS FAQ.  Thanks!e  @ :question 1.  in unix if i want to delete a directory continaingF :subdirectories and files, i can force the delete command to do that. E :can this be done in vms.  from looking at help delete, i don't see aa7 :similar option is there another command used for this?   F   You can specify the heirarchy of directories as the target -- AFAIK,C   this file system construct does not have a direct analog in UNIX.g       $ DELETE ddcu:[dir...]*.*;*i  G   You may/will have to specify this command several times in sequence, p;   as the DELETE will refuse to delete occupied directories.e  G   (The DELETE command should provide a depth-first directory traversal s:   option, which avoids this whole mess.  But I digress...)  F   There exist various tree-delete tools, tools which avoid this.  (DFUF   is one such tool, and is available on the OpenVMS Freeware.  DFU has+   other very useful capabilities, as well.)e  G :question 2.  i have searched the documentation for the array structurey> :in DCL but have found nothing.  i did find some documentationF :indicating that typical array stuctures are not available in DCL.  isE :there another clever way to be able to establish a list of items andmB :then loop through them to apply an operation or some other useful :task?  F   Through symbol substitution within the symbol itself, yes.  (I cover@   this and other topics in the DCL book.)  At its very simplest:   $ x=1o $ y'x'=2 $ sho sym y1.   Y1 = 2   Hex = 00000002  Octal = 00000000002 $y  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 00:15:13 GMT ( From: Everett Chong <echong@my-deja.com>7 Subject: DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration? + Message-ID: <3B52F6F1.7725D7FA@my-deja.com>u  F I just realized something.  There are DCL command procedures out there that use some variation of  % $ IF   F$GETSYI("HW_MODEL") .LT. 1024. $  THEN  $    ! VAX-specific code $  ELSE, $    ! Alpha-specific code $  ENDIF  H These will have to be identified and re-written for Itanic.  What valuesD of HW_MODEL will be used for IPF based systems?  Now that Compaq hasD pulled the plug on Alpha, there ought to be a finite upper bound for HW_MODEL for Alphas.   Everett    --------5 "Huh?  Compaq killed the Alpha?  How could you tell?"e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:00:44 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ; Subject: Re: DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration?a; Message-ID: <rPN47.14991$304.1893706@news20.bellglobal.com>   5 "Everett Chong" <echong@my-deja.com> wrote in messagey% news:3B52F6F1.7725D7FA@my-deja.com...sH > I just realized something.  There are DCL command procedures out there > that use some variation of >p' > $ IF   F$GETSYI("HW_MODEL") .LT. 1024e	 > $  THENe > $    ! VAX-specific code	 > $  ELSE  > $    ! Alpha-specific code
 > $  ENDIF >aJ > These will have to be identified and re-written for Itanic.  What valuesF > of HW_MODEL will be used for IPF based systems?  Now that Compaq hasF > pulled the plug on Alpha, there ought to be a finite upper bound for > HW_MODEL for Alphas. >l	 > Everetts >a
 > --------7 > "Huh?  Compaq killed the Alpha?  How could you tell?"o   How about this...y   $ say :== write sys$output $ arch = f$getsyi("ARCH_NAME") $ test = "Unknown"* $ if arch .eqs. "VAX"   then test = "good", $ if arch .eqs. "Alpha" then test = "better"+ $ if arch .eqs. "IA-64" then test = "yikes"o+ $ say "Architecture: ", arch, " (",test,")"v  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,7 Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/e   ------------------------------   Date: 16 JUL 2001 19:26:07 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)+ Subject: Re: DHCP on different Cluster Node 6 Message-ID: <16JUL01.19260701@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  J In a previous article, "Dr. Otto Titze" <titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote: -> eC ->because I was not able to run two DHCP Server(both members of the = ->same LAVC) in the two segments because of the lock problem,u@ ->I tried to use only one but serving more then one segment. TheA ->university computer center people bridged a broadcast for me on- ->their router.- ->  C ->At the first glance everything looked fine, the server recogniseda@ ->the client on the other segment and provided IP addresses. ButF ->looking closer the information about the standerd gateway was wrong. -> JC ->After a lot of tries and modifications I finally found that ordern7 ->in which the entries appear in DHCPCAP. is important.r -> i	 ->node1:\d! ->	:gw=sub1:\		#gateway segment 1- ->	:ha=MAC-addr:\D
 ->	:ip=addr1:. ->node1-sub2:\! ->	:gw=sub2:\		#Gateway segment 2 + ->	:ha=MAC-addr:\		#the same for both nodesa
 ->	:ip=addr2:r -> g8 ->In this case if I use the computer on sub1 it gets the. ->gateways as sub2. If I reverse the order to  ->node1-sub2:\	 ->node1:\aB ->then the Gatway is correct in segment 1. But if I then place the8 ->computer on subnet 2 the it gets as gateway sub1 too. @ ->Obviously the gateway is taken from the last entry in DHCPCAP.; ->I tried a lot of different options like :rs=: or :rd=0/1:u ->but without success.  @ What version of TCPIP is this? I'm seeing a similar problem with> gateways for all but the first subnet being incorrect on TCPIPG V5.0A-ECO1. I'm about to test this with TCPIP V5.1-ECO1 this week. I'lloC be reporting the results to my open case via DSNlink and a followupw here.y   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 20:16:08 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: ftp error( Message-ID: <3b532f68@news.kapsch.co.at>  X In article <9iuo6h$qdf3@imsp212.netvigator.com>, "VMS Novice" <best@hotmail.com> writes:L >I am running VMS 7.2-1 with TCPIP 5.0A ECO-2 on Alpha 8400. Sometimes, whenI >there are about 20 - 30 ftp clients connected, the other new ftp clients:I >connection will be rejected. I already set the max connection to 200 butn >this just doesn't help.  , Did you restart the FTP service thereafter ?   btw TCPIP V5.1 ECO 1 is current-   -- r< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:12:28 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.J2 Message-ID: <c8G47.766$rc5.60327@news.cpqcorp.net>  E A quick AlptaVista search (boy am I old fashioned) a couple weeks agoi
 pointed me to   & http://developer.intel.com/technology/   andu  . http://www.pentium.de/technology/efi/index.htm  J Check the subjects of PAL/SAL and EFI.  The console for IPF is pretty muchL what we wanted to do to resolve the problem of having the SRM and having theL ARC consoles (a unified console).  It appears pretty complete.  We are stillI looking at it to try and devine a few things - like the ability to have asL non-graphics console (it does define headless booting).  Some things we knowE we don't get - like MOP booting (it uses something defined by a "PXE" D specification) - but it also is extensible so we *could* write a MOPJ protocol handler.  It remains to be seen *exactly* what we will want addedD to the console, if anything.  And what we will move into the O/S (as; appropriate).  We are working on these questions right now.7       mulp wrote in message ...m > A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagee- >news:CcF37.687$rc5.47617@news.cpqcorp.net...eJ >> Please send me the source of the information regarding custom consoles. >aJ >Experience with existing Intel systems is about the only information thatL >anyone has about commodity Intel system and existing Intel consoles are notK >exactly compatible with VMS.  Management over a serial line or perhaps viavL >TELNET is certainly an expectation and lack of such an interface is hard toK >imagine being viable.  Even with a custom console, Windows on MIPS, Alpha,lL >and PowerPC was a GUI with far less capable than the existing Alpha console" >that it replaced or supplemented. >nF >If we can be assured that the standard IA64 console will support, for >example< >    >>>sho dev    ! enumerate all the devices on the system4 >    >>>sho config    ! sho the device configurationD >    >>>boot -fl 1,2,3 dka100   ! boot from any device on the systemJ >    >>>boot -proto mop -fi isl_ia64 eia0  ! boot from the network using a >light weigh protocole2 >and the terminal is a VT100/VT200/VT300/LA36 etc.0 >then a I think that everyone will be reassured. >aC >I have been looking at the Intel specs in this area and have found J >references to support of up to 100 adapters, some statements that vendorsL >might customize the console, etc., but nothing that provides any indicationJ >of a console that is friendly for working with complex configurations and >with large numbers of devices.c >aI >(And I know about the Remote Insight management Board - RIB - I've spentrK >many hours trying to get it to work reliably; it appears that an update to J >IE or Jave beyond what RIB was developed with results in incompatibility.J >This was with all Compaq and Microsoft supplied hardware and software, soF >we're not touching on the interoperability problems from using Linux, >Netscape, Solaris, etc.), >  >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:26:46 -0700O! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>rR Subject: FW: ScanMail Message: To Sender,sensitive content found and action taken.9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKENJCPAA.tom@kednos.com>=  H I go this in response to my last message.  Has anybody seen this before?H Now I have been known to use dirty words, but I hardly think Dallas Real
 time ClockJ qualifies unless it is confused with Debbie.  Any idea who stornet is, and how they grabbed my mail to this group?   -----Original Message-----6 From: System Attendant [mailto:MAILMAN-SA@StorNet.com]# Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 4:23 PMe To: 'Tom Linden'H Subject: ScanMail Message: To Sender, sensitive content found and action taken.    9 Trend SMEX Content Filter has detected sensitive content.a  - Place = Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com; ; ; Tom Lindent Sender = Tom Lindent Subject = RE: HobbyistsD/ Delivery Time = July 16, 2001 (Monday) 17:23:11e Policy = Dirty Words( Action on this mail = Quarantine message  # Warning message from administrator:v7 Sender, Content filter has detected a sensitive e-mail.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:08:13 -0400 ' From: Brian Hechinger <wonko@arkham.ws>CU Subject: Re: FW: ScanMail Message: To Sender,sensitive content found and actiontaken. 7 Message-ID: <20010716200813.R1574@wintermute.arkham.ws>   ; On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:26:46PM -0700, Tom Linden wrote:mJ > I go this in response to my last message.  Has anybody seen this before?J > Now I have been known to use dirty words, but I hardly think Dallas Real > time ClockL > qualifies unless it is confused with Debbie.  Any idea who stornet is, and > how they grabbed > my mail to this group?  L i got that too when i sent the original, it must not like the word pissy. :)  N i really don't see any words in my posting that would qualify as "dirty" sinceH i think for the first time in 10 years i posted something where i wasn't swearing. :)  L StorNet is a VAR.  they deal with Cisco and Sun (and a bunch of other stuff,M but seing how i only deal with Cisco and Sun that's all i know about *G*) andnO we got all our Cisco stuff from them at half.com as well as our Sun Clone boxese< since PDC (our primary Sun VAR) didn't have the clone boxes.   cheers,o   -brian   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 15:12:01 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)a2 Subject: Re: Help  Get OpenVMS screen data by ASP3 Message-ID: <M7aD7cg7gik2@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  X In article <3b516625@news.bezeqint.net>, "yoav lerner" <yoav_lerner@hotmail.com> writes:	 >  Hello, L > I have a customer that has a COBOL application running on AlphaServer withE > OpenVMS operating system, which works well. The customer is  really J > satisfied from this system, but he wants to publish some screens of this > application by the web.e > M > Does anyone know easy way to display OpenVMS screen data by the web?  Is it C > possible to access from ASP page (by the Vbscript) to the OpenVMSh7 > application get the data and show it by the ASP page?l
 >  Thanks, > Yoav.m  D I'll have to make some assumptions, here, since I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.    E If the application is just outputting information in straight text toP? a file, then it would be fairly simple to add HTML tags to that-E programs output.  In that case you would just have the HTMLized files D output to a known location. You could then create a simple script toC itemize the files in that location and give the viewers a choice oft what to look at.  C If the application is a screen oriented interactive one, and you'resB using DECForms, then you can use the new version which handles web? based forms.  The newer versions split the display stuff into anD separate entity so that you can change output devices, and not worry about the base code.  A If the app is not using DECforms, and is interactive, then you'llrC have to come up with your own CGI stuff to wrapper the application.nC CGI can be done using DCL for simple cases, or Java Servlets if youd: want to do session tracking and other more complex things.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:03:31 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64y2 Message-ID: <P%F47.762$rc5.60524@news.cpqcorp.net>  K I fail to see what the size of flash ROM has to do with the price of tea ins China.  J From a software perspective, we wish to avoid any "custom" console code of+ any kind, that is not platform independent.-  L The IPF console consists of 3 main parts, Platform Abstraction (PAL), System: Abstraction (SAL) and Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI).  K PAL and SAL are fully specified, and do not seem extensible on a whim.  EFIsJ is designed to be extensible (hey it's in the name), and uses a disk basedL method for adding additional console "applications".  And yes, we believe weH know how to have the FAT32 partition needed by the console co-exist on aL ODS-2/5 volume.  *IF* we were to add additional console code, it is likey toL reside in the disk-resident console code, and be platform independent.  Say,K perhaps a MOP protocol handler, or a SRM "thin layer" to fabricate familiart structures.s      B Carl Perkins wrote in message <13JUL200123040007@gerg.tamu.edu>...: >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes...I >}Hmmm.  You must have really good sources of speculation.  I'm doing the J >}console investigation right now for VMS, and as far as I know - this has noteF >}been suggested, nor does anyone here think a custom console would be# >}appropriate if it can be avoided.d >.E >Here's a question for you - how big is the standard Itanium Console?/ >wG >If it is comparable in size (or at least is stored in chips comparable1J >in size) or bigger (modulo the relative size of Alpha vs. IA64 binaries),E >then even if a custom console was needed it would still fit into theiC >memory on the standard motherboards. If it is smaller and a custom<I >console is needed then either Compaq has to make all of its motherboardszK >use the larger capacity console memory chips, or VMS only works on speciala >motherboards. >r	 >--- Carll   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:36:04 GMTo) From: ethan_dicks@yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)e Subject: Re: Hobbyists; Message-ID: <3b536d3b.83530646@news-server.columbus.rr.com>o  
 2 x 11/750 1 x 8300 1 x uVAX-IIt
 2 x uVAX-I
 3 x VS2000
 1 x 11/730  6 Numerous PDP-11s and PDP-8s (from a pair of PDP-11/70s back to a pair of Straight-8s).   9 The only VAXen I've powered on in the past year have beenn< the uVAX-II and a VS2000.  I'm about to get the uVAX-II back7 on its feet so I can slurp up magtapes before they rot.t   -ethan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:53:08 -0400 ' From: Brian Hechinger <wonko@arkham.ws>r Subject: Re: Hobbyists7 Message-ID: <20010716185308.N1574@wintermute.arkham.ws>r  < On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 10:36:04PM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >  > 2 x 11/750
 > 1 x 8300
 > 1 x uVAX-IIa > 2 x uVAX-I > 3 x VS2000 > 1 x 11/730  
 1 x 11/750 1 x 4000/500 1 x 4000/400 2 x 4000/300
 1 x VS3100/76u  8 > Numerous PDP-11s and PDP-8s (from a pair of PDP-11/70s! > back to a pair of Straight-8s).d  	 PDP-11/03 
 PDP-11/23+	 PDP-11/83rJ bits an pieces to build an 11/23 and possibly two more 11/03 boxes.  stillM collecting all that is needed (QBus boxes seem to be my hangup at the moment,s1 anone have any BA11 style cages they don't need?)e  ; > The only VAXen I've powered on in the past year have beeng> > the uVAX-II and a VS2000.  I'm about to get the uVAX-II back9 > on its feet so I can slurp up magtapes before they rot.e  L the /750 will sit in the storage lock it's in until i move, the 3100/76 runsA NetBSD, powered off at the moment since i'm moving things around.l  I the 4000/500 isn't here yet, will be my main NetBSD/vax box when it does.c6 the 4000/400 is a boot server for s VMS 5.5 VAXClusterM the one 4000/300 clusterboots into the VAXCluster (or at least it will once i-M figure out what is wrong) and the second 4000/300 will do the same once i get  the first one working.  B the /400 has a pile of DSSI disks and the /300 boxes are diskless.  N the PDP-11/23+ runs RT-11, the PDP-11/03 is being pissy and won't accept input= on the console, although it does output ODT stuff fine.  bah.-  N the PDP-11/83 is waiting for a QBus cage to put it in.  2.11BSD will be going C on that thing.  or RSX-11 if i can find a copy.  not real sure yet.I  P i'm in need of QBus ethernet cards, DSSI cables, and terminators.  another R400X probably wouldn't hurt either.  H then there are the MIPS and SPARC boxes.  but we won't even go there. :)  ? oh, and two DEC 3000 boxes for my Alpha fix (/300LX and a /700)A  < obsessed?  nah, i like to refer to myself as a collector. :)   -brian   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:18:42 -0700e! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>e Subject: RE: Hobbyists9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICENJCPAA.tom@kednos.com>   B I have 2 3100's that are avaialable for shipping costs, a model 76G (I took the Dallas Real time clock out of this and put it in a 4000/90,4G so it will need to be replaced) 32 MB no drives  and a Model VS42S 16MBdH no drives, CD and TK50 however.  Also have plenty of old drives that you are welcome to rz23 thru 26   L Aside from the RTC both systems worked when powered down.  Mail me privately/ if interested, they are head for the trash bin.h   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Brian Hechinger [mailto:wonko@arkham.ws]% > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 3:53 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: Hobbyists >p >s> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 10:36:04PM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >r > > 2 x 11/750 > > 1 x 8300 > > 1 x uVAX-IIE > > 2 x uVAX-I > > 3 x VS2000 > > 1 x 11/730 >p > 1 x 11/750 > 1 x 4000/500 > 1 x 4000/400 > 2 x 4000/300 > 1 x VS3100/76  >W: > > Numerous PDP-11s and PDP-8s (from a pair of PDP-11/70s# > > back to a pair of Straight-8s).y >t > PDP-11/03  > PDP-11/23+ > PDP-11/83 L > bits an pieces to build an 11/23 and possibly two more 11/03 boxes.  stillC > collecting all that is needed (QBus boxes seem to be my hangup at 
 > the moment,f3 > anone have any BA11 style cages they don't need?)i >t= > > The only VAXen I've powered on in the past year have beenC@ > > the uVAX-II and a VS2000.  I'm about to get the uVAX-II back; > > on its feet so I can slurp up magtapes before they rot.7 >TA > the /750 will sit in the storage lock it's in until i move, the: > 3100/76 runsC > NetBSD, powered off at the moment since i'm moving things around.d > K > the 4000/500 isn't here yet, will be my main NetBSD/vax box when it does. 8 > the 4000/400 is a boot server for s VMS 5.5 VAXClusterC > the one 4000/300 clusterboots into the VAXCluster (or at least itk
 > will once i ? > figure out what is wrong) and the second 4000/300 will do then > same once i gete > the first one working. >sD > the /400 has a pile of DSSI disks and the /300 boxes are diskless. >oC > the PDP-11/23+ runs RT-11, the PDP-11/03 is being pissy and won'tn > accept input? > on the console, although it does output ODT stuff fine.  bah.  >eA > the PDP-11/83 is waiting for a QBus cage to put it in.  2.11BSDn > will be goingrE > on that thing.  or RSX-11 if i can find a copy.  not real sure yet.> >eC > i'm in need of QBus ethernet cards, DSSI cables, and terminators.a >  another R400X  > probably wouldn't hurt either. > J > then there are the MIPS and SPARC boxes.  but we won't even go there. :) >iA > oh, and two DEC 3000 boxes for my Alpha fix (/300LX and a /700)2 >f> > obsessed?  nah, i like to refer to myself as a collector. :) >t > -brian >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:44:51 -0700a! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>h Subject: RE: Hobbyists9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEENMCPAA.tom@kednos.com>t  B Pebble Beach on the Monterey Peninsula zip 93953 or more precisely! 36deg 35'46.8"N  121deg 57'14.1"Wa   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Brian Hechinger [mailto:wonko@arkham.ws]% > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:09 PMC > To: Tom Linden > Subject: Re: Hobbyists >e >s= > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:18:42PM -0700, Tom Linden wrote:-F > > I have 2 3100's that are avaialable for shipping costs, a model 76K > > (I took the Dallas Real time clock out of this and put it in a 4000/90,2K > > so it will need to be replaced) 32 MB no drives  and a Model VS42S 16MBML > > no drives, CD and TK50 however.  Also have plenty of old drives that you > > are welcome to rz23 thru 26h > >tC > > Aside from the RTC both systems worked when powered down.  Mailt > me privately3 > > if interested, they are head for the trash bin.  > A > where are you located?  about how much does all this weigh.  ifh
 > no-one elset< > claims it, i'll be glad to take it off your hands assuming > shipping isn't going > to be astronomical.  > 	 > cheers,t >m > -brian >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:22:08 -0700h! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: RE: Hobbyists9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENPCPAA.tom@kednos.com>e   The old drives are as follows:   2 rz26 2 rz25 2 rz24 1 rz23 with VMS5.5-2 1 quantum trailblazer(rz25?) 1 hitachi dk312c (rz24?) 1 RRD42E  CD-ROM  ' They all worked when last powered down.l   > -----Original Message-----* > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@KEDNOS.COM]% > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 4:19 PMg > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi > Subject: RE: Hobbyists >m > D > I have 2 3100's that are avaialable for shipping costs, a model 76I > (I took the Dallas Real time clock out of this and put it in a 4000/90,iI > so it will need to be replaced) 32 MB no drives  and a Model VS42S 16MBaJ > no drives, CD and TK50 however.  Also have plenty of old drives that you > are welcome to rz23 thru 26( >dA > Aside from the RTC both systems worked when powered down.  Maill > me privately1 > if interested, they are head for the trash bin.o >- > > -----Original Message-----2 > > From: Brian Hechinger [mailto:wonko@arkham.ws]' > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 3:53 PMd > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. > > Subject: Re: Hobbyists > >O > >s@ > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 10:36:04PM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >p > > > 2 x 11/750 > > > 1 x 8300 > > > 1 x uVAX-IIs > > > 2 x uVAX-I > > > 3 x VS2000 > > > 1 x 11/730 > >c > > 1 x 11/750 > > 1 x 4000/500 > > 1 x 4000/400 > > 2 x 4000/300 > > 1 x VS3100/76u > >c< > > > Numerous PDP-11s and PDP-8s (from a pair of PDP-11/70s% > > > back to a pair of Straight-8s).  > > 
 > > PDP-11/03  > > PDP-11/23+
 > > PDP-11/83l@ > > bits an pieces to build an 11/23 and possibly two more 11/03 > boxes.  still E > > collecting all that is needed (QBus boxes seem to be my hangup at  > > the moment,i5 > > anone have any BA11 style cages they don't need?)n > >,? > > > The only VAXen I've powered on in the past year have beenxB > > > the uVAX-II and a VS2000.  I'm about to get the uVAX-II back= > > > on its feet so I can slurp up magtapes before they rot.r > >aC > > the /750 will sit in the storage lock it's in until i move, the  > > 3100/76 runsE > > NetBSD, powered off at the moment since i'm moving things around.t > > ? > > the 4000/500 isn't here yet, will be my main NetBSD/vax boxa > when it does.e: > > the 4000/400 is a boot server for s VMS 5.5 VAXClusterE > > the one 4000/300 clusterboots into the VAXCluster (or at least it  > > will once iIA > > figure out what is wrong) and the second 4000/300 will do the  > > same once i gett > > the first one working. > >eF > > the /400 has a pile of DSSI disks and the /300 boxes are diskless. > >iE > > the PDP-11/23+ runs RT-11, the PDP-11/03 is being pissy and won'tp > > accept inputA > > on the console, although it does output ODT stuff fine.  bah.R > > C > > the PDP-11/83 is waiting for a QBus cage to put it in.  2.11BSDe > > will be goinglG > > on that thing.  or RSX-11 if i can find a copy.  not real sure yet.e > >hE > > i'm in need of QBus ethernet cards, DSSI cables, and terminators.u > >  another R400X" > > probably wouldn't hurt either. > >iL > > then there are the MIPS and SPARC boxes.  but we won't even go there. :) > >-C > > oh, and two DEC 3000 boxes for my Alpha fix (/300LX and a /700)O > >m@ > > obsessed?  nah, i like to refer to myself as a collector. :) > >r
 > > -brian > >t >u   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 16:55:10 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)s  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <9ivkbe$9tj$1@lisa.gemair.com>  9 In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEMDCPAA.tom@kednos.com>,s# Tom Linden  <tom@kednos.com> wrote:aG >It is on the compaq site, it is not copyrighted so it is in the publici >domain. >-  B IANAL, BUT, I don't believe this is good advice.  Not speaking to E Simon's question I do want to direct your attention to the following:g  . 	http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html   >. >> -----Original Message-----  >> From: Simon Clubley8 >> [mailto:simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP]& >> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:57 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com# >> Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World= >> >>1 >> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 05:41:21 -0400, in articleaC >> <hFy47.4653$oh4.578417@news20.bellglobal.com>, Neil Rieck wrote:e >> >= >> >"mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote in message,A >> >news:45w47.6558$23.755392@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...s >> >@ >> >> We would love to simply HEAR the engineering folk involved >> openly explain G >> >> why Alpha can't stay ahead of IA64.  If they were involved in the6
 >> >decision,:M >> >> then three weeks should be sufficient to publish a statement explainings >> >thes >> >> reasoning. >> >< >> >Yes and this document proves the engineering folk really >> believed Alpha was  >> >better:e< >> >http://www.alphapowered.com/presentations/alpha_ia64.pdf >> > >>M >> What is the legal situation with people copying these pro-Alpha documents,iK >> like the one above, and hosting them on their own websites provided thati@ >> you identify the original source of the document ? If you are >> allowed to doD >> this, then those people here with websites may wish to copy these >> documentsK >> before some PHB in CPQ realises that they exist and orders them removed.a >>D >> When VMS went from VAX to Alpha, it was clear that it was a major >> technicalC >> improvement. These pro-Alpha documents, like the one above, thati >> people keepA >> referencing, must be an unwelcome reminder to CPQ that the way  >> the IA64 portM >> was announced, at the expense of Alpha, is looking more and more politicallL >> and less technical. [It's a decade ago, but I don't recall hearing at theA >> Alpha announcement that VAX was dead and no more work would be" >> done. I seemmJ >> to recall that there was a strong push to get Alpha established first.] >>	 >> Simon.l >> >> --i> >> Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPA >> In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I haveo >> discovered asH >> truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it. >> >s   -Jordan Henderson? jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:56:50 -0400h) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>a  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World9 Message-ID: <cjK47.9445$oh4.923375@news20.bellglobal.com>y   [snip]  L > What is the legal situation with people copying these pro-Alpha documents,J > like the one above, and hosting them on their own websites provided thatJ > you identify the original source of the document ? If you are allowed to doC > this, then those people here with websites may wish to copy thesee	 documentsoJ > before some PHB in CPQ realises that they exist and orders them removed.  B This site: http://www.alphapowered.com is owned and run by Compaq.J This site: http://www.alpha-processor.com is (still?) owned and run by APIH which is a consortium of Compaq and Samsung to produce Alpha products. IJ suggest you copy as many documents as you can before they all disappear inI 2004 when IA-64 still doesn't fly and Capellas trys to rewrite history toh save his bacon.f  C > When VMS went from VAX to Alpha, it was clear that it was a majors	 technical I > improvement. These pro-Alpha documents, like the one above, that people. keepI > referencing, must be an unwelcome reminder to CPQ that the way the IA64m portL > was announced, at the expense of Alpha, is looking more and more politicalK > and less technical. [It's a decade ago, but I don't recall hearing at thehH > Alpha announcement that VAX was dead and no more work would be done. I seemI > to recall that there was a strong push to get Alpha established first.]d  H There wasn't much of a world-wide-web in 1992 AND Alpha was the superiorC product as all Digital benchmarking proved. I've saved one of theirs 1995/1996 marketing gems here:C http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html#vax_vs_alphaiF It's too bad they didn't do a better job of getting the word out. MostF technical people know what a LOG scale is; most business types do not.    
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,p Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:26:55 -07000 From: ruemmler@cello.hpl.hp.com (Chris Ruemmler)  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World) Message-ID: <9j00of$c44@cello.hpl.hp.com>y  * In article <3B45E1CD.FBDBC266@us.ibm.com>,) Greg Pfister  <pfister@us.ibm.com> wrote:3 >andrew harrison wrote:  >[snip]e9 >> The problem for WildFire is that it was late but  whenY2 >> it was announced it wasn't competitive with the; >> previous generation of servers from Compaqs competitors.a >>  6 >> It recently reached the dizzy heights of 230,000 on3 >> TPC-C, using the latest 1001 Mhz CPU's, a resulti6 >> puts it just ahead of the IBM P680, a machine thats( >> just about to be replaced by Regatta. >>  2 >> When Rob Young started his WildFire boosting in3 >> the dark and dim past initial numbers of 200,000 3 >> were being bandied about, I can only assume that 3 >> this number was a design goal that was leaked tot0 >> Rob (unless he made it up). The fact that the/ >> initial numbers came out way lower than thatd0 >> and then needed OPS in a box tends to suggest' >> that they missed their design goals.m >rB >Do you know for a fact that the OPS-in-a-box solution was used inB >Wildfire? That's often rather difficult to tell from official TPC= >disclosures. If it was used, it of course makes the high TPCR5 >results rather meaningless (in my personal opinion).r >l@ Yes, all of the GS320 TPC-C numbers have been a cluster in a canG with OPS except the very first one they published and withdrew (because-M it was so poor in terms of performance).  If you look at the full disclosure hI reports you'll see 8 configuration files for Oracle in the back, one for XF each instance.  In addition, their "clients" are always configured in @ multiples of 8 which is another hint that partitioning was used.  D It is sad that Compaq had to resort to TPC-C tricks like this to tryB and show performance on the box.  I imagine the "real" single box B performance is not terrible, just not leadership.  The NUMA hit onA that box is really much too large to run TPC-C really well with a0 single instance.   --Chris  My own views   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 03:50:57 GMT82 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: InfoServer ; Message-ID: <BCO47.10$1w.72760@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com>d  $ Rich Jordan <rjordan@mcs.net> wrote:M > We wait with  breathless anticipation... please don't make us wait till the ! > ipf port is finished though! :)y  F The *WHAT* port!!!!!!  Are you saying that they're going to add NAT toJ OpenVMS?  Now that could potentially save me some electricity at home!  OrG am I getting my anacronyms mixed up, or are you talking about something  else?s   			Zane    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 12:32:20 -0700$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth)* Subject: Is anyone running ACS 8.6-1S yet?= Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0107161132.106a41ae@posting.google.com>    Hi:M  D Just got the new HSG80 firmware cards in the mail today.  Has anyoneD else run ACS 8.6-1S with their VMS or NT systems yet?  I'm not going3 to be the first one on the block to plug this in...k   Thanks,   
 -Scott :^)   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Jul 2001 04:48:40 GMT From: bk4leg@aol.com (BK4Leg)n Subject: ISV's and VMS future : Message-ID: <20010717004840.15075.00003476@ng-fj1.aol.com>  N The company I work for has several applications from software vendors, some onN VMS and some on UNIX.  I'm talking about applications, not tools or utilities.  L One rationale for the ISV's who use VMS has been the superior performance ofO the Alpha chip and VMS over its UNIX competition - esp Solaris and HP-UX.  WithwM the demise of Alpha, where is the incentive for a vendor to remain on VMS ?  n  H Even more so for the vendors who have both UNIX and VMS flavors of theirM application software, since without the performance advantage of Alpha, there0O is little reason to go to VMS.  They can cut costs either by delaying their VMSEJ versions until well after their UNIX releases, or by eliminating their VMS support entirely.c  D It was nice to hope for a while that Compaq might bring new softwareL applications to VMS.  With the demise of the Alpha advantage, I can't expect6 that many of the current vendors will remain with VMS.  O If Compaq is sucessful in bringing new applications to VMS, then they should beC widely publicizing that. o  - And BTW, when was the last VMS ad in Forbes ?e   Bernie   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:44:22 -0700e" From: Koloth <koloth@telocity.com>! Subject: Re: ISV's and VMS futureo, Message-ID: <3B53D0B5.A2BAB07C@telocity.com>  R This is true if the only reason for using OpenVMS was for performance.  Now if youQ have the same performance as other systems OpenVMS gives you reliability, ....etc   R So the question to the ISV and compaq marketeers is with all else being equal, why- would you choose anything other than OpenVMS?o   Cass Witkowski  
 BK4Leg wrote:   P > The company I work for has several applications from software vendors, some onP > VMS and some on UNIX.  I'm talking about applications, not tools or utilities. >aN > One rationale for the ISV's who use VMS has been the superior performance ofQ > the Alpha chip and VMS over its UNIX competition - esp Solaris and HP-UX.  WithhM > the demise of Alpha, where is the incentive for a vendor to remain on VMS ?X > J > Even more so for the vendors who have both UNIX and VMS flavors of theirO > application software, since without the performance advantage of Alpha, there Q > is little reason to go to VMS.  They can cut costs either by delaying their VMS5L > versions until well after their UNIX releases, or by eliminating their VMS > support entirely.o > F > It was nice to hope for a while that Compaq might bring new softwareN > applications to VMS.  With the demise of the Alpha advantage, I can't expect8 > that many of the current vendors will remain with VMS. >nQ > If Compaq is sucessful in bringing new applications to VMS, then they should be  > widely publicizing that. >P/ > And BTW, when was the last VMS ad in Forbes ?t >  > Bernie   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 00:17:52 GMT  From: jnxynf@nowhere.com1 Subject: Keep your internet usage hidden!!!  8935a4 Message-ID: <QuL47.8680$Un2.124438@news.pacbell.net>  , Click Here 2 Download Evidence Eliminator!!!  " http://www.citedusexe.com/badandy/      D You will be held responsible for any data which you allow to remain   B on your computer, even if it was only by accident. Even files and   P Internet Searches you have made which you thought you had never "saved to disk"   9 can be recorded as permanent evidence on your hard drive.-      H Get total protection now... If you do not use Evidence Eliminator your   N PC is "a ticking Time Bomb waiting to go off!" Only with Evidence Eliminator   Q can you get the protection you deserve, only then can you use your PC to explore o   the Internet with confidence.1      , Click Here 2 Download Evidence Eliminator!!!  ' http://www4.pimpserver.com/www4/mrpink/]                                                                                        F qjznpxzqftcvnexkxzmsftyoeryjnmzyxbfijhdxqpfxfiyyimxxkwjdkertxptmzrrirf   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 18:40:07 -05004 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius)= Subject: Re: Large drive size patches for version 6.2 VAX/VMSM3 Message-ID: <ZwHkfPpDgRNW@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  Y In article <3B4F8DE0.3357B62A@interlog.com>, Doug Mallory <dmallory@interlog.com> writes:h > Here's the question,I > Does anyone know if there are patches for VAX Openvms ver 6.2, to allowfI > drive sizes over the 8.6gb boundary? I know the patch is there for 7.2.?I > I am trying to use an 18gb drive, though DSSI, which crashes the systemlH > on a create/dir or backup to the drive. I can init the drive and mountH > it ok. and the total blocks reported by the O/S is correct, but if youI > need to shutdown fast, just try to use it! The same drive will not workoH > on the SCSI (dk) side either, I get a divide by 0 inter error, sort ofG > expected error from the dkdriver. Anyone have the knowledge on this??z  B ALPSCSI04_062 included a fix for problems above 8.6 GB.  Currently# included as part of ALPSCSI08_062 .    --9 George Cornelius              cornelius@encompasserve.orgs0                               cornelius@mayo.edu   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 18:50:21 -05004 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius)= Subject: Re: Large drive size patches for version 6.2 VAX/VMS 3 Message-ID: <yJAcQq3KLFbo@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  j In article <ZwHkfPpDgRNW@eisner.encompasserve.org>, cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) writes:[ > In article <3B4F8DE0.3357B62A@interlog.com>, Doug Mallory <dmallory@interlog.com> writes:s >> Here's the question,tJ >> Does anyone know if there are patches for VAX Openvms ver 6.2, to allowJ >> drive sizes over the 8.6gb boundary? I know the patch is there for 7.2.J >> I am trying to use an 18gb drive, though DSSI, which crashes the systemI >> on a create/dir or backup to the drive. I can init the drive and mount I >> it ok. and the total blocks reported by the O/S is correct, but if youpJ >> need to shutdown fast, just try to use it! The same drive will not workI >> on the SCSI (dk) side either, I get a divide by 0 inter error, sort of H >> expected error from the dkdriver. Anyone have the knowledge on this?? > D > ALPSCSI04_062 included a fix for problems above 8.6 GB.  Currently% > included as part of ALPSCSI08_062 .   C Oops.  I see you asked about OpenVMS VAX.  I don't see a mention ofs( such a fix in VAXSCSI01_062.CVRLET_TXT .   > --; > George Cornelius              cornelius@encompasserve.org 2 >                               cornelius@mayo.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:42:47 GMTa$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>8 Subject: Re: Looking for BA356 8-bit personality modules) Message-ID: <3B5398B9.5563DD69@wi.rr.com>   C I just sold some to Great Lakes about a month ago when I purged ouriF computer room of all the CI-based storage.  I recall that a few of ourH shelves in the SW800s were wide and had the 8-bit widgets in them.  Give G.L. a call (616) 698-1100.a   -Scott   dittman@dittman.net wrote:  : > Does anyone have any extra 8-bit personality modules for8 > the BA356 wide shelf?  I need to connect a couple to a > narrow controller. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.netl   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 18:03:59 -0700# From: paszty@xoma.com (Nick Paszty) + Subject: looping to delete a directory treeD= Message-ID: <14ce1c21.0107161703.1eb1a528@posting.google.com>    hello.  A i can't seem to delete an entire directory tree if there is stuffhD (subdirectories or files) in that tree.  here is a tree for example.< [sasdev.test.testsub.testsubsub]. while at the sasdev level,? i've tried del/log [.test...]*.*;* but it only deletes the lastfD directory in the test tree - only testsubsub is deleted.  the systemC returns an error message saying that testsub was not empty and thenMF goes on to delete testsubsub. i have to recall the command to continueC deleting up the tree.  i would like to continue to loop the del/logbF [.test...]*.*;* command until i have wiped out all the directories andB their contents. is there a system return code i can test to for toD continue looping and deleting up the tree?  is there a better way to$ perform this simple management task?   thanks,b   nick   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:03:58 GMTo2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)K Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)-2 Message-ID: <i0G47.763$rc5.60120@news.cpqcorp.net>  p In article <009FF17F.ED173243@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:  K :What is to happen, for example, with something as fundamental as queue in-CL :sertion or removal?  I'm sure something *this* basic has been tossed about  :in discussions of this effort.:  J   Yes, we have been discussing the implementations that are available for J   those interlocked primitives that do not have direct analogs within IPF.  L   OpenVMS Alpha, of course, has a PAL-based version of the old VAX hardware D   interlocked instructions, so this is nothing new nor particularly F   ground-breaking -- the compilers and the RTL provide access to this H   capability, and I would expect that stuff using this will continue to    operate.    I   For benefit of those that have just joined this IPF and the gazzillion  J   other IPF discussions in progress, Alpha PALcode involves a sequence of I   Alpha hardware instructions that is loaded into the system by the AlphalH   console, and that is protected against interrupts.  The IPF analog is G   arguably the SAL -- IPF has two things called PAL, but these are not c9   as direct an analog to the Alpha PALcode as is the SAL.a  F   Whether the particular implementation of these interlocked sequencesG   ends up in the compilers, in the RTL, in the SAL layer, in some othertF   component or layer elsewhere, or some combination of these, has not    yet been decided.i  ? :Just what things trouble you so that you wish to *break* them?e  J   The internal implementation of the TDF and of time-keeping would be one J   such area -- I'd like to provide a central time-keeping kernel-mode API,F   switch to UTC for all internal operations, keep a per-process and a G   system-wide TDF, while (of course) continuing to present the classic kJ   VAX environment for all existing user-mode calls to $bintim and similar H   calls.  (I have NO idea if I will be able to get this change designed K   and implemented into the IPF release, of course.)  There are other areas oI   for enhancements seeing various (and preliminary) discussions, as well.m    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:50:33 GMTj= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)5K Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)l0 Message-ID: <009FF18F.20EE8466@SendSpamHere.ORG>  j In article <3KF47.759$rc5.60466@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >t1 >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message \o >> >e >Snipe >t >mL >>What is to happen, for example, with something as fundamental as queue in-L >>sertion or removal?  I'm sure something *this* basic has been tossed about  >>in discussions of this effort. >> >: >wI >Sure.  They range from making them system calls (not highly favored), touE >using an instruction that will trap (pehaps a reserved opcode, maybeaG >something like "break").  Some things might be possible as inline code K >sequences, depending on if the failure semantics can be correctly handled.    Yuch, yuch, yuch!m   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMA            sJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbese   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:22:16 -0400'5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>lK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS) 2 Message-ID: <E9H47.777$rc5.60506@news.cpqcorp.net>  F Yuck-shmuck.  Just because their isn't an explicit PALcode instructionK doesn't mean much.  I'm sure that whatever we do in the end will work fine,d and perform well.5      . Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message' <009FF18F.20EE8466@SendSpamHere.ORG>...iE >In article <3KF47.759$rc5.60466@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"t% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:e >>2 >>Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message \ >>>a >> >>Snip >> >>I >>>What is to happen, for example, with something as fundamental as queue- in--G >>>sertion or removal?  I'm sure something *this* basic has been tossed  aboutR! >>>in discussions of this effort.y >>>d >> >>J >>Sure.  They range from making them system calls (not highly favored), toF >>using an instruction that will trap (pehaps a reserved opcode, maybeH >>something like "break").  Some things might be possible as inline codeL >>sequences, depending on if the failure semantics can be correctly handled. >e >Yuch, yuch, yuch! >e >--s3 >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001  VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >hJ >  "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fieryJ >  intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:38:23 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)tK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS) 0 Message-ID: <009FF195.CFD26585@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <i0G47.763$rc5.60120@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: q >In article <009FF17F.ED173243@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:h >dL >:What is to happen, for example, with something as fundamental as queue in-M >:sertion or removal?  I'm sure something *this* basic has been tossed about l  >:in discussions of this effort. > K >  Yes, we have been discussing the implementations that are available for eK >  those interlocked primitives that do not have direct analogs within IPF.o   I thought you might be.     J >  For benefit of those that have just joined this IPF and the gazzillion K >  other IPF discussions in progress, Alpha PALcode involves a sequence of  J >  Alpha hardware instructions that is loaded into the system by the AlphaI >  console, and that is protected against interrupts.  The IPF analog is  H >  arguably the SAL -- IPF has two things called PAL, but these are not : >  as direct an analog to the Alpha PALcode as is the SAL.  * Overheard from a group of intel engineers:  5 Ooo! Alpha has this great feature, let's kludge it.  -< Ooo! Alpha has this great feature also, let's kludge it too.; Of course, we'll have to brain-damage it so that it doesn't:> look like we hoisted it right out of the Alpha implementation.  H Details on SAL and its being an equivalent of Alpha PAL are, at present,H sketchy.  Is there another source I can read other that the IPF ARM that$ will describe SAL is greater detail?    K >  The internal implementation of the TDF and of time-keeping would be one tK >  such area -- I'd like to provide a central time-keeping kernel-mode API,xG >  switch to UTC for all internal operations, keep a per-process and a -H >  system-wide TDF, while (of course) continuing to present the classic K >  VAX environment for all existing user-mode calls to $bintim and similar DI >  calls.  (I have NO idea if I will be able to get this change designed eL >  and implemented into the IPF release, of course.)  There are other areas J >  for enhancements seeing various (and preliminary) discussions, as well.  J Changing how/where VMS keeps time doesn't bother me as much as some of theB other systems in VMS which could suffer at the hands of this port.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMj             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesl   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:42:07 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)-K Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)o0 Message-ID: <009FF196.5539D4D0@SendSpamHere.ORG>  j In article <E9H47.777$rc5.60506@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:G >Yuck-shmuck.  Just because their isn't an explicit PALcode instructiontL >doesn't mean much.  I'm sure that whatever we do in the end will work fine, >and perform well.  K Leave the shmuck out of this.  He claims to know all there is about portinga+ but, in reality, he knows so very little.  M     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            nJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbest   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:03:28 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>lK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)C2 Message-ID: <gMH47.782$rc5.60551@news.cpqcorp.net>  . Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message >eI >Details on SAL and its being an equivalent of Alpha PAL are, at present,tI >sketchy.  Is there another source I can read other that the IPF ARM thatn% >will describe SAL is greater detail?  >e    ( http://developer.intel.com/design/ia-64/  B On the left edge, go to firmware specification, and then to System Abstraction Layer.    F PAL/SAL provides some of the things done in PAL (like handling machineL checks) - but it doesn't provide any of the programmable instruction logic -@ that is, it isn't a opcode trap and a dispatch to a PAL routine.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:20:15 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)oK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)o3 Message-ID: <pvXBAEdDcEKv@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  p In article <009FF195.CFD26585@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:i > In article <i0G47.763$rc5.60120@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:o  L >>  The internal implementation of the TDF and of time-keeping would be one L >>  such area -- I'd like to provide a central time-keeping kernel-mode API,H >>  switch to UTC for all internal operations, keep a per-process and a I >>  system-wide TDF, while (of course) continuing to present the classic  L >>  VAX environment for all existing user-mode calls to $bintim and similar J >>  calls.  (I have NO idea if I will be able to get this change designed M >>  and implemented into the IPF release, of course.)  There are other areas 8K >>  for enhancements seeing various (and preliminary) discussions, as well.! > L > Changing how/where VMS keeps time doesn't bother me as much as some of theD > other systems in VMS which could suffer at the hands of this port.  D I think anything that changed the way drivers worked with time wouldD be burdensome.  (I do not mean to say that the changes described are& impossible without burdening drivers.)   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 16:30:06 -05003 From: "Gareth V. Williams" <graff@cfa0.harvard.edu>o& Subject: OpenVMS Purveyor web server Q, Message-ID: <3b534ece.0@cfanews.harvard.edu>  H Are there are any Purveyor users out there who have solved the following problem?  F We have created a worker account, HTTPD, to run CGI scripts.  HTTPD isF defined in the SYSUAF as having process priority 3.  Yet when a workerF process is created by the CONTROLLER_VAX process, it has a priority ofH 4.  This impacts interactive users on the system.  Why is it not 3?  How can it be set to 3?r  ' VAX, V6.1, UCX 4.0 eco 5, Purveyor 1.1bn   --  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------H Gareth V. Williams, MS 18, 60 Garden Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, U.S.A.+ Associate Director, IAU Minor Planet CenterlH gwilliams@cfa.harvard.edu        http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/mpc.html7 OpenVMS & RISC OS: refined choices in operating systems    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 03:37:33 GMTn2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.: Message-ID: <1qO47.8$1w.62549@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com>  3 Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote:rC > That's good.  Stopping Dr. Who was as dumb as ... stopping alpha.m  K Especially when you consider how little they must of spent on most of thoseeL episodes, and how widely it was distributed.  I think the only BBC show thatJ might have been distributed more, might be Eastenders, and I know my local* PBS station has never shown Eastenders :^(  M Personally I think stopping Dr. Who was even dumber than stopping the Alpha.  J On an interesting note, the Dr. Who Magazine that Marvel Comics produce inK England has somehow managed to keep going all these years, and the 'furtherlL adventures' books seem to be highly popular (with most of the ones I've read being quite good).   			Zanea   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:04:20 -0400u# From: <researchstudy2001@yahoo.com>)P Subject: Please answer a research survey on personal use of the Internet at work9 Message-ID: <0a5701c10e3a$e22879c0$9a748e88@sis.pitt.edu>o   http://ebiz.sis.pitt.edu/surveyX   Dear newsgroup user:  B We apologize for our cross-posting, but we needed representative =F coverage of a relatively small subset of current newsgroups. We have =F embarked on a study to learn more about personal use of the Internet =E while at work. We think you will find this an unusually interesting = / questionnaire to complete. Please click here: =u http://ebiz.sis.pitt.edu/surveyw  H If you are currently employed or have held a job providing some access =G to the Internet, please consider completing this short questionnaire, =dF whether or not you used the Internet for personal goals while on the = job.  I Please answer honestly, and be assured that your identity is completely =oG unknown. We have not set and do not read any "cookies," we do not run =VI any covert code, we do not "pop up" a stream of browser windows, and we =.H do not trick your system into revealing your identity. You are welcome =8 to examine the source code for this page to verify that.  H If you would like to express any comments about our study or request a =F copy of our results, we would be happy to read and respond. It might =H take a few days for our responses, so please be patient. To enter your =J comments, please click the "comment" button near the bottom of the form. =? A new window will pop up with a separate form for this purpose.a  ( We hope you find this study interesting.  
 Sincerely,   Dennis F. Galletta. Associate Professor of Business Administration   Peter Polaks Doctoral Candidate   http://ebiz.sis.pitt.edu/surveyl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:25:58 +0100-+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>  Subject: Re: RA7x series disks' Message-ID: <3B534DD6.5F5C3CF0@iee.org>o   Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > Any chance you could pull the electronics off and just send me that??t  * For at least *some* of the *later* drives,- the electronics and the HDA are (essentially)  a matched pair.o  . For the RA70 the service manual indicates that: the ECM consists of two parts (the logic read/write module1 and the servo/spindle module) which are a matched   set and should not be separated.  5 Interestingly though, you *can* swap RA71 & RA72 ECMsb but not any other combination.  K > Maybe you could answer a question or two to help me diagnose the problem.hG > Are the error codes displayed by the front panel leds the same as theoA > lights on an RA80/81??  If so, what is a "master/Slave error"??s  7 The disks are (I think) reasonably consistent about hownA to read the error code (RUN/STOP FAULT READY W-PROT PORT-A PORT-Bf< for the RA7x going from MSB to LSB). But none of the manuals! I have list "master/slave error"!o  % What hex code do you get? (And out ofa% interest, which manual did you use to  translate the code?)  I > The disk seems to spin up OK,  When it reaches full speed it faults and3I > shuts back down.  based on t his, I assume it is likely electronics andOI > not mechanics.  There isn't by any chance a physical lock that may haveaJ > been set by the previous owner that is not obviously visible, is there??  , The fault code will lead you to the failing  FRU ... there are only two :-)   Antonio    --     ---------------w- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------   Date: 16 Jul 2001 19:35:27 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)- Subject: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.d2 Message-ID: <9ivflv$ka3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>   http://www.sun.com/alpha/l  ? All I wonder is:  what does sun do with the traded-in alphas?  o   Brian    ------------------------------  , Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:50:49 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>n1 Subject: Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.sJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107162048360.6807-100000@firewall.freddym.org>   Hi!i   > http://www.sun.com/alpha/t > A > All I wonder is:  what does sun do with the traded-in alphas?     G I havn't had a look at the mentioned URL yet, but I think that Sun willtH try to offer the same program as Compaq does - Compaq offers the programE to trade the sun to an alpha, and sun does it the other way around :)eG I suppose Sun sells the Alphas back to Compaq and Compaq sells the Sunst> back to Sun, so the whole exchange program is a big circle ;-)  F Just my (crazy) opinion (which shouldn't be considred as serious....), 	Freddyh   -- eN Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================>  Frederik Meerwaldt           Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much moreeI  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOSb   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Jul 2001 19:53:14 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e1 Subject: Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement. , Message-ID: <9ivgna$13vn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <9ivflv$ka3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,-  bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:- |> http://www.sun.com/alpha/ |> lB |> All I wonder is:  what does sun do with the traded-in alphas?    G I don't know, but I do know a Computing Sciences Department at a school B that would be glad to take them off their hands as donations.  :-)   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   H   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:04:03 -0700o! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>w1 Subject: RE: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement. 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENCCPAA.tom@kednos.com>r   Could you use and XL266?   > -----Original Message-----: > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]& > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 12:53 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy3 > Subject: Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement.r >, >u4 > In article <9ivflv$ka3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,/ >  bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:m > |> http://www.sun.com/alpha/ > |>B > |> All I wonder is:  what does sun do with the traded-in alphas? >yI > I don't know, but I do know a Computing Sciences Department at a schooluD > that would be glad to take them off their hands as donations.  :-) >r > bill >e > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >l   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 14:15:32 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)w- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64e3 Message-ID: <wBI4$DLbMtGb@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  r In article <0lF47.215506$%i7.123347732@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> writes: >  > "Rob Young" wrote9 >> A senior circuit designer< >> put it to me that he was totally shocked in February whenI >> Intel pointed out that McKinley was/is at 1.4 GHz.  Don't be surprisedkE >> if McKinley comes in higher.  And yes, I have been sitting on that 0 >> tidbit for a while (the shock of it all!) ;-) >>E >> http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/speeches/pso20010227idf.htma > E > The above link to an IDF talk by Otellini is describing 1.4 Gz on a # > P4-based Xeon, not on a McKinley.h >   > 	That's right.  Disregard that link, an earlier insertion that7 	didn't get deleted.  Good luck finding info on 1.4 GHzi  	McKinley's, it isn't out there.   				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:23:02 -0400r' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64e( Message-ID: <9ivemr$ic6$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:epmTYhdktxbV@eisner.encompasserve.org...oL > In article <9iogve$310$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:a   ...,  ? > But to speculate that Intel can't speed up EPIC is inaccurateh
 > at best.  K Which might be one reason I've never done so.  What I've stated, along withfJ people like Paul DeMone (your favorite technical source on these matters),K is that the best available information strongly suggests that EPIC can't bemH speeded up anywhere nearly as much and as easily as Alpha's architecture can.  3   If they *only* hit the publically stated 1.2 GHz,:* > that is a 50% increase over Itanium One.  F BFD (assuming they indeed hit that mark).  Even with other performanceL improvements as well (not just the clock increase), that will leave McKinley- competing at about the EV6x level, not EV7's.n     Also, latency clean-up@ > and other improvements have them going from 370 SpecInt2000 toA > 1000+ SpecInt2000 making McKinley fairly competitive and a much 4 > better gauge of the speed-up, nevermind frequency.  L A month ago Paul predicted a 1.2 GHz McKinley's performance at 700 SpecInt2KG (vs. 1000 for EV7):  do you have a better source of information than he  does?e   >  >t > > It was only well afterL > > software had been running on it for quite a while that it became obviousL >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^G > > that it was never going to get near the targets set for it.  So now  McKinley> >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6 > > is 'da man', at least until we find out otherwise. > >  >s@ > Nope, not at all.  Again , more than a few "knew" Merced wouldA > suck at integer, not just Henrik and not just "after the fact."l  J Well, more than a few also 'know' that Alpha would have no problem stayingJ ahead of IA64 for an indefinite period.  But my point was that *Intel* wasE predicting far higher clock speeds for Merced right up to the time itcF finally admitted that it just couldn't get it up - so seeing something9 similar in McKinley's case would hardly be unprecedented.o   - bill   >  > Rob- >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:29:57 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64i( Message-ID: <9ivf3n$iue$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4AD7F0B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net...   ...s  K > >>> But instead of even causing you to reexamine what you're saying (evensL > after being given specific reasons why it's asinine), you just keep saying > it.>>> >mH > Or rather ignoring it (and a good deal of your other "teachings") as IL > personally do not agree with your conspiracy theories. But you are free to! > express whatever you feel like.   H This is not a conspirary theory, but a technical point here (the obviousE inability to work any major changes into the IA64 architecture in theSH time-frame specified for the VMS port).  You really are a piece of work,K accusing others of twisting words when it's virtually *all* you do.  I take4K back my previous comment:  whoring is a considerably more honest professionr than yours is.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:09:34 -0400i' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>u- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64l( Message-ID: <9ivkul$ole$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:rxF47.757$rc5.60092@news.cpqcorp.net...   ...   % > I "think" this was a complement ;-)b  I It was, and it's been vindicated by your subsequent responses:  I may not'G agree with everything you've said, but I believe it's been said in goodi faith.   >oJ > One thing that is different here at Compaq from when we were Digital, is? > that once a decision has been reached, they don't go back ande revisit/remake > it endlessly.   I I guess that means that no decision that Alpha had a committed future was F ever made - i.e., that Compaq just told customers this, repeatedly andI earnestly, knowing that it might well not be true (leaving aside the lastn@ few months when they knew damn well that it likely wasn't true).  C But since that eliminates the possibility that the decision will beeL reversed, it should make it clear to many that the only acceptable course ofE action at this point is to remove those responsible for making it and.F replace them with individuals with both greater competence and greater honesty.   ...u  K > Will we lose some customers.  Sadly, we may.  I'm suprised to some degrees6 > about how some people have taken this so personally.  J Funny how that happens when people find out that they've been aggressivelyI lied to over a period of years - or, at best, that the vendor they depend J upon feels absolutely no obligation to negotiate a mutually-agreeable exit' to the commitments it has made to them.<     Heck, they tolddF > customers about it before they told me, that should annoy me no end.  J What should annoy you is the breaking of the same promises (made to you asL well as to customers) about Compaq's long-term commitment to Alpha.  PerhapsG you've gotten more used to broken Compaq commitments than they have, oriL bought into the rationalization that "those weren't real *commitments*, they8 were just the normal drivel required to close the sale".  H Or perhaps you just want to continue working on VMS and this is the onlyL remaining way to do so.  That's understandable, but it's hardly the same way& a lot of customers view the situation.     I'msJ > hoping that after the initial shock, and perhaps anger, that people will beI > re-evaluate and conclude that as long as VMS-is-VMS, that the fact it'sa IPFlL > and not VAX and not Alpha still provides them with what they really wanted > all along - VMS.  K For a lot of people, it's clear that VMS is not *all* they wanted:  high onaI the list appears to have been a desire for a vendor they could reasonably J trust - especially as VMS's future depends as much on that as Alpha's did.  <   And VMS on a viable, long-term industry standard platform.  H VMS *already was* on a viable, long-term platform.  The only people I'veG ever heard asking for VMS on an 'industry-standard' platform were thosedG asking for it in IA32, as an *adjunct to*, not a replacement of, VMS ono@ Alpha.  Compaq's not offering anything remotely resembling that.   - bill   >T, > _Fred (NOT speaking for Compaq or OpenVMS)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:25:04 -0400p+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>s- Subject: RE: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64tR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF48DBF92@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Bill,   $ Must you now resort to name calling?  < Tsk, Tsk ..why not simply state you disagree and let it go?   I On specific subjects, many of your discussions are pretty good, but may IlK suggest that those you write containing childish, emotional outbursts (suchpL as attached) against those that might disagree with your conspiracy theories< be taken offline as imho, they do not have a place in c.o.v.   Thanks,   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantj Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services1 Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----, From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@foo.mv.com] Sent: July 16, 2001 3:30 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64       6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4AD7F0B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net...   ..  K > >>> But instead of even causing you to reexamine what you're saying (even L > after being given specific reasons why it's asinine), you just keep saying > it.>>> >aH > Or rather ignoring it (and a good deal of your other "teachings") as IL > personally do not agree with your conspiracy theories. But you are free to! > express whatever you feel like.u  H This is not a conspirary theory, but a technical point here (the obviousE inability to work any major changes into the IA64 architecture in thePH time-frame specified for the VMS port).  You really are a piece of work,K accusing others of twisting words when it's virtually *all* you do.  I takeiK back my previous comment:  whoring is a considerably more honest profession  than yours is.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:49:01 -0400=- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64n, Message-ID: <3B53998A.F8CC8792@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > hoping that after the initial shock, and perhaps anger, that people will beeM > re-evaluate and conclude that as long as VMS-is-VMS, that the fact it's IPFsL > and not VAX and not Alpha still provides them with what they really wanted > all along - VMS. a    L You forget the "<company name> is Killing VMS" factor.  People didn't have aK problem because VMS was running on Alpha instead of VMS, they had a probleme+ with the *way* Digital was positioning VMS.n  M By breaking its commitment to Alpha, Compaq greatly hurt its credibility. And D consdiering that porting VMS to IA64 seems to be an afterthought, it@ re-enforces the image that Compaq doesn't really care about VMS.  L They may not be actively killing VMS at this point in time, but they are notM doing much to strenghten and expand its market. The fact that they supposedlybN visited key customers on the day of Alpha's murder but didn't bother giving thI erest of the customers the same information makes one beleive that CompaqhD doesn't care about losing those customers it doesn't feel are "key".   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Jul 2001 21:52:56 GMT% From: "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com> # Subject: Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS error 0 Message-ID: <9ivnno$9mg@dispatch.concentric.net>  I I am upgrading an AXP 150 from 7.2-2 to 7.3.  All goes well for the first:B 80% of the execution phase and then I get three messages about theL PAGEFILE.SYS filling up, full, and attempting to continue.  Needless to say,H the update hangs at this point.  My 7.2-2 PAGEFILE.SYS was 76000 blocks.J Using the DCL prompt on the 7.3 CD, I enlarged it to 86000 blocks but thisI does not seem to have "taken".  How do I expand the PAGEFILE.SYS pagefilea such that the upgrade keeps it?n Thanks,e Paul   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 18:05:40 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o' Subject: Re: Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS errorq3 Message-ID: <CA2tTMpqIlCY@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  X In article <9ivnno$9mg@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com> writes:K > I am upgrading an AXP 150 from 7.2-2 to 7.3.  All goes well for the firstnD > 80% of the execution phase and then I get three messages about theN > PAGEFILE.SYS filling up, full, and attempting to continue.  Needless to say,J > the update hangs at this point.  My 7.2-2 PAGEFILE.SYS was 76000 blocks.L > Using the DCL prompt on the 7.3 CD, I enlarged it to 86000 blocks but thisK > does not seem to have "taken".  How do I expand the PAGEFILE.SYS pagefilet! > such that the upgrade keeps it?u  3 Was there an error message when it did not "take" ?r  = If it is anything other than total lack of space on the disk,bA an image backup and restore might help (reducing use of extensionh headers, etc.).    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:44:16 GMT-2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)' Subject: Re: Upgrade PAGEFILE.SYS error-2 Message-ID: <47K47.792$rc5.60558@news.cpqcorp.net>  X In article <9ivnno$9mg@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Paul Dembry" <pade@trifox.com> writes:J :I am upgrading an AXP 150 from 7.2-2 to 7.3.  All goes well for the firstC :80% of the execution phase and then I get three messages about the M :PAGEFILE.SYS filling up, full, and attempting to continue.  Needless to say,0I :the update hangs at this point.  My 7.2-2 PAGEFILE.SYS was 76000 blocks.sK :Using the DCL prompt on the 7.3 CD, I enlarged it to 86000 blocks but this0J :does not seem to have "taken".  How do I expand the PAGEFILE.SYS pagefile  :such that the upgrade keeps it?  K   I would not expect the primary PAGEFILE.SYS on the target system disk to tJ   be altered or bypassed by the upgrade.  That said, it would appear that I   your 86,000 block pagefile is simply (still) too small, and I'll guess hI   that your system's physical memory is also constrained -- insufficient oG   physical memory obviously tends to increase the load on the pagefile.   M   In other words, create a large(r) version and purge out any older versions..  H   I will assume you are aware that the DEC 2000 model 300 -- the versionK   of this hardware that was running Microsoft Windows NT (and that hardware=G   only supported Windows NT) was known as the DECpc AXP 150 -- will no wC   longer be supported by OpenVMS releases after OpenVMS Alpha V7.3.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:23:51 -0400e# From: Mark Vance <mvance@iglou.com>/* Subject: VMS Delete lots of files quickly?( Message-ID: <3B5393A7.1050904@iglou.com>  I Is there an way, in VMS, to delete files quickly?  Im doing a conversion wF that is going to make millions of small files over its course, and in H some small test runs, it takes FOREVER to get a range of files deleted. G   Is there any way to prune directories, or delete lots of small files e quickly?  
 HEEEEEEELP!!!    Thanks!n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:53:28 +0100-' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>1. Subject: Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly?2 Message-ID: <170720010253280298%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  F In article <3B5393A7.1050904@iglou.com>, Mark Vance <mvance@iglou.com> wrote:  K > Is there an way, in VMS, to delete files quickly?  Im doing a conversion lH > that is going to make millions of small files over its course, and in J > some small test runs, it takes FOREVER to get a range of files deleted. I >   Is there any way to prune directories, or delete lots of small files i
 > quickly? >  > HEEEEEEELP!!!   D You need DFU. I think it comes on the freeware disk. Amazingly quick delete tree and other tricks.?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:25:45 -0500h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a. Subject: Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly?' Message-ID: <3B53A229.BF165A29@fsi.net>(   Elliott Roper wrote: > H > In article <3B5393A7.1050904@iglou.com>, Mark Vance <mvance@iglou.com> > wrote: > L > > Is there an way, in VMS, to delete files quickly?  Im doing a conversionI > > that is going to make millions of small files over its course, and in-K > > some small test runs, it takes FOREVER to get a range of files deleted.nJ > >   Is there any way to prune directories, or delete lots of small files > > quickly? > >. > > HEEEEEEELP!!!2 > F > You need DFU. I think it comes on the freeware disk. Amazingly quick > delete tree and other tricks.s  B Get http://www.djesys.com/freeware/vms/dfu027_free.zip and the ECOF http://www.djesys.com/freeware/vms/dfufree27eco1.zip (V2.7-1). See the( on-line HELP installed with the utility.  E (Note: I don't maintain DFU nor do I provide support - I just make itt4 available. ...and no, I don't have the source code.)   -- o David J. Dachterap dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:54:45 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> . Subject: Re: VMS Delete lots of files quickly?; Message-ID: <QJN47.14953$304.1887750@news20.bellglobal.com>n  0 "Mark Vance" <mvance@iglou.com> wrote in message" news:3B5393A7.1050904@iglou.com... > J > Is there an way, in VMS, to delete files quickly?  Im doing a conversionG > that is going to make millions of small files over its course, and inoI > some small test runs, it takes FOREVER to get a range of files deleted.mH >   Is there any way to prune directories, or delete lots of small files
 > quickly? >p > HEEEEEEELP!!!  >r	 > Thanks!a  J Since VMS directories are sorted alphabetically, it's much easier to startG deleting from the end of a file list rather than the beginning (classicaA bubble sort problem). In my "VMS Programmer's Corner" found here:m8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_vax_vms.htmlK I've got a DCL program which demonstrates how to do this and can be adaptedaA to suit your needs. You can connect to it directly via this link:p> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/demo_vms/dcl-quick-delete.zip    
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,p Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/a   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Jul 2001 15:52:10 -0700* From: antonelron@hotmail.com (Anton Elron) Subject: Want 21164 Alpha < Message-ID: <ea82a75b.0107161452.dd8aa99@posting.google.com>  C I am looking for a 21164 Alpha. Are motherboards available or would^& buying a whole used machine be better?  @  Who would have used 21164 based workstations for sale? (besides0 Microway and Aspen, who sell them new, big $$$)?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.393 ************************ise. > >  >s@ > Nope, not at all.  Again , more than a few "knew" Merced wouldA > suck at integer, not just Henrik and not just "after the fact."l  J Well, more than a few also 'know' that Alpha would have no problem stayingJ ahead of IA64 for an indefinite period.  But my point was that *