1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 18 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 396       Contents:1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ 1 Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+ ( ??== DCPS: Locking trays on a HP4100DTN., Re: ??== DCPS: Locking trays on a HP4100DTN.2 Re: A equivalent "daemon" for SYSLOGD in OpenVMS ?/ Re: Access port information from an FTP session / Re: Access port information from an FTP session  Re: Alpha - Intel and VMS 5 Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore ( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate' RE: Alpha: an invitation to communicate  AlphaPowered Website Re: AlphaPowered Website$ Re: AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUs$ Re: AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUs. RE: ANNOUNCE: xmcd 3.0 pl1 X11/Motif CD player! Re: Basic quesitons from a newbie + Re: Check out the Wall Street Journal today + Re: Check out the Wall Street Journal today  Checking pathes  RE: Checking pathes  Re: Checking pathes $ Re: Compaq as a technology leader???" Compaq FUD and lack of information! Re: Compaq have committed suicide ! Re: Compaq have committed suicide ! Re: Compaq have committed suicide ! Re: Compaq have committed suicide ! Re: Compaq have committed suicide D Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?2 Re: DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration?0 Re: DEC C Doc of lib$routines.h and descriptor.h0 Re: DEC C Doc of lib$routines.h and descriptor.h, DEC VMS Style keyboards in Stock USD 50 eachA Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate) A Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate) A Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate) A Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)   Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. Re: Gartner report Hardware Diagnotics for XP1000 Re: IA64 Rocks My World = Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices? = Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?  Re: ISV's and VMS future Re: ISV's and VMS futureO JOB: Technical Support Representative needed with VMS Skills- Columbia Maryland P MD-COLUMBIA-JOB: VMS Systems and Software Engineers- US DESIGN- Storage Solution+ Re: Multinet NFS client and Linux Problems.  My final take on the subject  Re: My final take on the subject  Re: My final take on the subject  Re: My final take on the subject  Re: My final take on the subject  Re: My final take on the subject Re: No chance for OpenVMS B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)B Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS) Re: Oracle dead on VMS?  Re: Oracle dead on VMS?  Re: Oracle dead on VMS?  Re: Oracle dead on VMS?  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Re: OT: Dr Who.  Patents (was: Alpha ...)" Re: Penance for Compaq's VMS sins?" Re: Penance for Compaq's VMS sins?- Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...) A Re: Possibly a dumb question on TCPIP settings for 2 IP Addresses A Re: Possibly a dumb question on TCPIP settings for 2 IP Addresses  Re: RA7x series disks  Re: RA7x series disks  Re: RA7x series disks  Re: Remote Console Re: Remote Console Re: Remote Console8 Re: Returning a value from a C program to a DCL variable8 Re: Returning a value from a C program to a DCL variableL Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSV1 SMS on VMS [was RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.] 5 Re: SMS on VMS [was RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.] ( Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement. SUPRA DBA/ CONTRACT/ MN $ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64$ Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-641 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated L VMS declared Cool and Unhackable at DE FCON9 hackers convention i	nLas VegasP Re: VMS declared Cool and Unhackable at DE FCON9 hackers convention i	nLas Vegas& VMS in readers letters to Network News Re: VMS on IA64  Re: VMS on IA64 F Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Help - Get OpenVMS screen data by...)A Wailing and moaning.... (was: Compaq FUD and lack of information) # Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do? # Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do? # Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do?  Your reply on GSDFULL  Re: Your reply on GSDFULL  Re: Your reply on GSDFULL # [TCPIP V5.1] Still no TFTP client ? ' Re: [TCPIP V5.1] Still no TFTP client ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:09:39 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> : Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+8 Message-ID: <4jgaltsadmj8vni5f66kmerhcf6vfld5ha@4ax.com>  < On 17 Jul 2001 15:08:11 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:     >|> F >|> Even Richard George said several times yesterday that the completeI >|> picture is not yet available and will not be for several months yet.   > E >And Compaq expects that businesses all over the world are just going E >to put off any IT plans they had and sit around to wait for them to   >provide concrete information??   E When I put exactly this point to him he replied that customers should E just continue as planned and trust Compaq for now. I am not saying he 6 expected them to but that's what he wanted them to do.   > E >And the fallout continues.  I was waiting to hear something about my F >Student Porting Project in the beginning of this month, (it's successI >and maybe even it's very existence was dependant on an offered equipment H >grant from outside the University.)  I have had no contact since beforeH >Black Monday and I fear the plug was probably pulled on this project as >well. > 9 >Even PHB's can read the writting on the wall eventually.  >  >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:11:11 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>: Subject: Re: 3 Reasons why VMS is alive and probably well+* Message-ID: <3B556ECF.CA90EBDB@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Dave,  >  > >>> Name one. <<<  > : > I could name a number of the ones that I have talked to. > K > As Fred pointed out, once the whole picture is explained then they (or at J > least the ones I have talked to) seem satisfied and in a few cases, evenE > glad to hear OpenVMS is getting ported to what will likely become a  > mainstream HW platform.  >   3 How can you explain the whole picture to customers  1 when by your own admisssion the Compaq cooks are  0 still working through the full ramifications of  the Intel deal.    regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:17:42 +0200 , From: aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de (Hans M. Aus)1 Subject: ??== DCPS: Locking trays on a HP4100DTN. D Message-ID: <aus-1807011117420001@wvia48.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>  J Is there an easy way to prevent the input tray switching when the selected tray is empty?  H On our new HP4100DTN, we use plain paper in tray 2 and recycled paper inJ tray 3. The problem is that the HP4100 automatically switches trays to the+ other tray when the selected tray is empty.   0 Is there a NO_TRAY_SWITCH parameter in DCPS 2.0?  H (Incidently, the HP4100DTN works with the same modifications to DCPS 1.8 as the HP4050TN.)    --  B Cheers, Hans M. Aus, Wuerzburg, Germany,  aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:36:01 -0400 0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>5 Subject: Re: ??== DCPS: Locking trays on a HP4100DTN. ; Message-ID: <180720011236011830%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>   D In article <aus-1807011117420001@wvia48.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>,- Hans M. Aus <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:   L > Is there an easy way to prevent the input tray switching when the selected > tray is empty? > J > On our new HP4100DTN, we use plain paper in tray 2 and recycled paper inL > tray 3. The problem is that the HP4100 automatically switches trays to the- > other tray when the selected tray is empty.  > 2 > Is there a NO_TRAY_SWITCH parameter in DCPS 2.0?  D No.  Tray switching or linking or failover or locking (whatever it'sG called on a particular printer) is handled by configuring the printer.  G This type of setting is not one you'd typically want to set differently ? depending on what OS or software sends the file to the printer.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Compaq Computer Corporation    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:37:50 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) ; Subject: Re: A equivalent "daemon" for SYSLOGD in OpenVMS ? + Message-ID: <9j43fe$mkc$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   m In article <70cf0643.0107171345.845ee@posting.google.com>, fabio.becherini@ufrgs.br (Fabio Becherini) writes:  >Hi !  > & >        The environment that we have: > : >  DIGITAL TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.0A2 >  on a AlphaServer 800 5/500 running OpenVMS V7.2 > 4 >        In Unix there is a daemon called "syslogd",. >        I think it's similar to OPCOM in VMS,$ >        but I'm not shure about it. > 4 >        For those of you that "live" in the two OS,- >        VMS and Unix, is it possible to have ) >        our "very_secure_openvms_system" ) >        logging in the events of several 5 >        Unix machines, acting as a "syslog server" ?  >  >        Best regards, > 4 >                           Fabio.Becherini@ufrgs.br  J There is a syslogd for VMS (both alpha and VAX) which works with UCX / DEC TCPIP services. K I can't remember where I got it from however you can pick up a copy from my  ftp server.   # ftp://ftp.mdx.ac.uk/vms/syslogd.zip   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:23:56 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>8 Subject: Re: Access port information from an FTP sessionJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107181603230.12679-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  , On 3 Jul 2001 bart@CTI01.COMVERSE.COM wrote:  B >+	I would like to obtain access port information in the LOGIN.COMG                                                        **************** I >+file invoked by an FTP connection (UCX V4.2) similar to that obtainable P >+with the TT_ACCPORNAM argument to f$getdvi for interactive sessions associatedJ >+with a terminal (telnet, etc.). Is there a magic combination of f$getdviK >+or f$getjpi arguments (or anything else for that matter) that will return 1 >+this information in an FTP connection context ?   ?  Don't know, haven't RTFM, but may be interested finding how to C a connection is made available for self-written UCX server process, 6 *may be* that FTP uses the same way. RTFM proper DOC ?B BTW1: if anyone will answer the  question - send the answer here !C BTW2: The BG-device is not allocated to the server process, but for ?  the "root-FTP"; looks like some great-for-hacking un*x idea :]   B  Will signal you one other point: LOGIN.COM may be a wrong place !<  Do you know, that network server processes can be re-used ?  :  In your scenarion: someone logs in with environment where@ you accept, ends the connection - and next someone else connects9 from *other* place and the connection is serviced by *the % same* process (LOGIN is NOT redone) ! :  At all, may be possible that the interface for network IO= may be not available in LOGIN phase (for DECNET the interface 1 is set-up but the problem with re-login appears).   +  Probably the place for what you say is in: :  SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$FTP_SERVER.COM, TCPIP$FTP_CHILD.EXE must8 have way to get access to data (that is NOT a equivalent: for "the real BG number" or something else where may allow: finding the connection source - but... may be a hope... !)  G >+	Basically, I find the UCX SET COMM/reject= functionality insuficient L >+for my needs and would like to do some rejecting based on my inspection of$ >+the domain name of the originator.  I  What wrong with the SET SERVICE FTP /ACCEPT or /REJECT=NETWORK setting ? -  Yes, that is NOT suposed for domain names...    >+					Steve Bart     Regards - Gotfryd   --  E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:01:48 +0200 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>8 Subject: Re: Access port information from an FTP sessionG Message-ID: <3b55c089$0$32922$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   K "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag D news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0107181603230.12679-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl.... > On 3 Jul 2001 bart@CTI01.COMVERSE.COM wrote: > D > >+ I would like to obtain access port information in the LOGIN.COMI >                                                        **************** K > >+file invoked by an FTP connection (UCX V4.2) similar to that obtainable G > >+with the TT_ACCPORNAM argument to f$getdvi for interactive sessions 
 associatedL > >+with a terminal (telnet, etc.). Is there a magic combination of f$getdviF > >+or f$getjpi arguments (or anything else for that matter) that will return3 > >+this information in an FTP connection context ?  > A >  Don't know, haven't RTFM, but may be interested finding how to E > a connection is made available for self-written UCX server process, 8 > *may be* that FTP uses the same way. RTFM proper DOC ?D > BTW1: if anyone will answer the  question - send the answer here !E > BTW2: The BG-device is not allocated to the server process, but for A >  the "root-FTP"; looks like some great-for-hacking un*x idea :]  > D >  Will signal you one other point: LOGIN.COM may be a wrong place !> >  Do you know, that network server processes can be re-used ? > < >  In your scenarion: someone logs in with environment whereB > you accept, ends the connection - and next someone else connects; > from *other* place and the connection is serviced by *the ' > same* process (LOGIN is NOT redone) ! < >  At all, may be possible that the interface for network IO? > may be not available in LOGIN phase (for DECNET the interface 3 > is set-up but the problem with re-login appears).  > - >  Probably the place for what you say is in: < >  SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$FTP_SERVER.COM, TCPIP$FTP_CHILD.EXE must: > have way to get access to data (that is NOT a equivalent< > for "the real BG number" or something else where may allow< > finding the connection source - but... may be a hope... !) > I > >+ Basically, I find the UCX SET COMM/reject= functionality insuficient K > >+for my needs and would like to do some rejecting based on my inspection  of& > >+the domain name of the originator. >eK >  What wrong with the SET SERVICE FTP /ACCEPT or /REJECT=NETWORK setting ?=/ >  Yes, that is NOT suposed for domain names...P >L > >+ Steve Bart  >1 >  Regards - Gotfryd >" > --G > =====================================================================oH > $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - > THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEl0 > $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plG > =====================================================================e >l   Hi!n  @ The logical name SYS$REM_ID consists of "FTP_" followed by a hex( representation of the source ip Address.K You can check it in the login.com of the relevant account, which is, as faruE as I can see, executed at each establishment of a control-connection.t   regardsu   Ren Schelbaum Datakom Austria GesmbH   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:56:01 GMTo. From: Burnie M <burniem.NOSPAM@ozemail.com.au>" Subject: Re: Alpha - Intel and VMS8 Message-ID: <kljaltk975bj8u3ftcoq3m9rsm3ph0tj9m@4ax.com>  D On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:07:08 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:   >  >  >Sue Skonetski wrote:o >> u >> Dear Newsgroup, >> v0 >> Not an official anything, just a note from me >> mM >> I just wanted to let you know that at CETS there will be sessions coveringoM >> the decision around this decision and the Compaq corporate roadmaps.  DaveoL >> Fenwick will be doing this session, additionally the VMS (Clair Grant andO >> Hoff) and Tru64 group will be doing sessions as well around the port.  Theseb( >> are bound to be interesting sessions. >>  K >> If you really love VMS you would be excited to see the level of interestdJ >> from the engineers on this port, the discussions are ongoing (sometimes  >> loud) but always interesting. >>  M >> Today Dave Fenwick is here talking to a room of 150 of the engineers about M >> some of the plans.  They sure look engaged to me.  You should hear all thec- >> TLA's it sounds like a different language.c >>   >> Warm Regards, >> e >> Sue > G >Thanks Sue but is the 9th of September the earliest that we can expecte, >some information of substance from Compaq ? >oC >I note that The Inquirer has a letter from Steve Tolnai (SolutionslC >Architecture Manager, High Performance Technical Computing, CustomnI >Systems & Solutions, Compaq Computer Corporation, Asia Pacific Division)tE >and it states (in part) "Feedback we have from our major technical & I >commercial customers throughout Asia Pacific has been extremely positivet? >to the Compaq Intel announcement and our customers see this asv( >strengthing Compaq's product offering." >iG >Other articles (or are they sinply whimsical press releases) have alsot" >spoken of this positive response. >.C >Just what are these customers being told that makes them extremely E >positive ?  What are they being told that we are not ?  (Or are theyo. >simply less skeptical of Compaq's promises ?) >rE >Not all of us can go to CETS and another 8 weeks is a hell of a longcF >time to wait for anything of substance, especially when more-completeD >plans at the time of the announcement would have gone a long way toC >alleviating some genuine concerns that have been expressed in thisr >newsgroup.  > C >Compaq has no problem announcing the purchase of Dutch company BMStI >Compter Services when supposedly the company is on holidays.  What is soyG >difficult about provide some information to what has been a very loyallE >band of VMS supporters ??  Is it simply that it has not been thoughta/ >through properly as the silence does suggest ?  >n > 	 >regards,  >  >John McLean  F If its any consolation, those of us in the Asia Pacific region are notE getting the info either and we are still looking for those supposedlye positive Compaq customers.D Talking to our Compaq reps is a problem as well as they seem to know little more than us. What is Compaqs agenda ?   Burnie M   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:51:36 -0400r' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> > Subject: Re: Alpha fiasco looses $30M deal to IBM in Singapore( Message-ID: <9j3bdr$3tu$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageeF news:rdeininger-1807010156440001@user-2iveb1s.dialup.mindspring.com...D > In article <KV257.900$rc5.63403@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski"% > <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote:  > 6 > > Just letting everyone know that this was not true. > > It was a rumor/e >n > Thanks for stepping on it! >oE > The inquirer did publish a quasi-retraction a few days later, whiche" > someone (Terry?) mentioned here. > G > Strangely, there was much less discussion here of the retraction thanaK > there was of the original rumor.  I guess that's why sleazy rumor-mongersa > are so successfull.   D Well, that could have something to do with the fact that it wasn't aJ retraction at all, just a report of a denial by Compaq.  And (will wondersL never cease?) even more recently the assertion surfaced again, but this timeG stating that the $30,000,000 value was in Singapore, not U.S., dollars.   L Once you've lost trust in the words of your vendor, the world becomes a much more confusing place.n   - bill   >F > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comC   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:20:22 GMTa. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateHB Message-ID: <WMa57.286$Ef6.31393@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messaget4 news:VTZ47.394$N21.404592@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...  J > Complexity is another issue. Piling wider issue and SMT on top of out ofI > order execution makes for a daunting architectural exercise. To proceedT andVH > succeed with EV8, Compaq would have required incremental staffing and, quite-# > likely, a waiver of Murphy's Law.   H To NOT procede with EV8 means incremental staffing not only a Compaq butJ also at lots of ISVs, some of which require Compaq to pay for the staffing= (Oracle is one - no vendor and no platform gets a free ride).b  D Just at the point where ISVs are generally able to reduce their qualC resources since their customers aren't very concerned about new VAXtK releases, they now need to plan to target two platforms and most important,CI go thru a qual on both platforms.  Unless there is reason to believe thatfK this will increase the customer base, this added cost is certainly going totK be a disincentive.  If there are existing Alpha customers, then that is theoJ platform to continue to support until such time as its clear that there isI enough new business to pay for the cost of a port and additional platformd# qual to support a new VMS platform.g  J But not only is Compaq not increasing staff, they aren't keeping it level,L they are cutting engineers.  Engineers were cut AFTER the decision was made.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:25:03 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatelB Message-ID: <jRa57.433$Po6.34052@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagee4 news:CXZ47.397$N21.406337@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...I > Compaq's decision to go with IPF reflects their philosophy that the CPUbD > won't be the key differentiator in future systems. We shall see...  J Compaq's decision reflects the fact that Compaq doesn't know what it means to deliver solutions.   J Compaq's decision reflects the fact that Compaq doesn't know what it means to be a software company.   J Compaq's decision reflects the fact that Compaq doesn't know what it means6 to truely partner with hardware and software partners.  I Compaq has depended on Intel and Microsoft to deal with all these issues,cL but I don't think that Microsoft is going to be developing much software for VMS.  Or Tru64.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:38:38 GMTi. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate B Message-ID: <22b57.455$Po6.36705@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B54B992.A56087CD@videotron.ca...E > Is it unreasonable for Compaq to offload the stuff which it doesn'tr
 understand> > so that it can return to making what it used to be good at ?  L Let's see Compaq was good at taking commodity parts, stuffing them in a box,H stuffing the boxes in warehouses, then shipping them to distributors whoL stuffed them in warehouses, who then shipped them to retail stores or to who ever...f  L Dell seems to have blown that model to hell, but in more than 5 years Compaq7 hasn't been able to fix its model to compete with Dell.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:47:45 +0200  From: "Magnus M" <mmad@tips.se>j1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 3 Message-ID: <abb57.745$Ta.1998@news3.global-ip.net>q  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B54A79E.959F3A54@videotron.ca... >w >zI > Were Digital compilers truly better than Microsoft's ? Or was that justi formG > Digital attempt at justifying the price of its compilers that were ann order of% > magnitude higher than Microsoft's ?   K I'll assume that what you really mean to ask, hidden under the vague natureyD of your question (Better at compiling code for Alpha than VC++ is at	 compilingDF code for x86, apples and oranges?) is whether Intel will have a betterG compiler architecture with GEM than they had before. If that's what your mean,  then the answer is yes.   H If the whole point of your question was to whine about the unfair prices= of DEC software products compared to the PC mass market, thennC I suggest taking it to comp.software.economics.beginners, if such a-  newsgroup exists.   /magnusa   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:10:07 GMTk. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate@B Message-ID: <zvb57.497$Po6.41922@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B54E960.19FF90F5@videotron.ca...= > I.E., the yields on IA64 would be much lower than on Alpha.a >rE > Could anyone comment on this ? Is that still true ? Is the yield an 	 importantx; > enough variable that could make Alpha cheaper than IA64 ?i  H The estimate die size for 21264B and for AthlonC is about 120mm2 and theF estimate for P4 is 220mm2.  I can't find a current estimate for eitherK Merced or McKinley; and old one was 300-400 for Merced but that was when itiK was going to be shipping in 1998, but since it includes a Pentium core plusv( all sort of other stuff, I'll guess 300.  K Assuming a uniform random distrtibution of defects and similar defect ratesSH for all similar processes, the defects would be about 1:4:9 because rate$ goes up with the square of the area.  J EV7 is going to be a huge chip with an estimated size of 400, but for muchL of the die, there is considerable ECC protection and redundant memory arraysK that can be trimmed out.  Also, EV7 is glueless so there are not additionalSL chips required other than a IO-PCI interface chip to build a multiprocessor.J The chip cost will be higher, but the system cost will be lower than for a/ multiprocessor P4 or Merced or McKinley system.3   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 06:14:07 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate*3 Message-ID: <IpNemyrp3Izz@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  U In article <abb57.745$Ta.1998@news3.global-ip.net>, "Magnus M" <mmad@tips.se> writes:s > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3B54A79E.959F3A54@videotron.ca... >> >>J >> Were Digital compilers truly better than Microsoft's ? Or was that just > formH >> Digital attempt at justifying the price of its compilers that were an
 > order of& >> magnitude higher than Microsoft's ? > M > I'll assume that what you really mean to ask, hidden under the vague naturerF > of your question (Better at compiling code for Alpha than VC++ is at > compiling H > code for x86, apples and oranges?) is whether Intel will have a betterI > compiler architecture with GEM than they had before. If that's what youo > mean,t > then the answer is yes.p  B Well, DEC did produce Visual Fortran for Windows, which provides aC basis for comparison.  The problem is that it was comparably pricede> to Microsoft compilers, and that is no good because it totally@ destroys JF's thesis.  I presume he would prefer we ignore cases( where a comparison can actually be made.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 12:47:54 +0200* From: Robert Harley <harley@asti.inria.fr>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateP+ Message-ID: <rz766cqikdh.fsf@asti.inria.fr>S  - "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com> writes:X3 > [...] and a breakout of service revenue by server : > and workstation product families, again, for 8 quarters.  A I don't have precise numbers but a few days ago in Compaq's press): release about the GS series at 1 GHz,  Rick Marcello said:  C   "At the same time, we are building on our growing momentum in thesF   enterprise UNIX marketplace where we have seen revenues increase for   eight consecutive quarters."   Doesn't sound bad.    A >[somebody] would be exposed as just another ignorant, conceited,S$ >hate-filled, crackpot USENET poser.  F Funny that, because your own posts are generally devoid of information< but full of opinion mixed with vitriol.  Look in the mirror.     Bye,   Rob.I     .-.                                                               .-.=J    /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \K   /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \cL  /       \       /     \     /   \   / \   /   \     /     \       /       \M /         \     /       \   /     `-'   `-'     \   /       \     /         \eB            \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /A             `-'                                               `-'0   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:04:51 +0000 (UTC)+/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>n1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 2 Message-ID: <995457896.739316@haldjas.folklore.ee>  6 In comp.arch Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote:     > Maynard Handley wrote:) >  This implies Intel engineers hitting asK >> roadblock, unable to solve the problem, and coming up with a solution byi >> searching patent databases.  I > I believe that patent infringements more often than not, are the resultiJ > of one company acquiring one or more of another company's key engineers, > so the IP comes with them.  L That's interesting. I believe that most of patent infringements in the world happen because either:C 	* people didn't know somebody had already invented and patented it C 	* somebody patented something they read in a magazine and the restc 	  don't know yetp  K >> it goes, that the reality is that most tech patents are bullshit patentsaJ >> of the obvious, that which company gets some obvious technique patentedI >> first is more a matter of luck (or which company has the LESS talentedIJ >> engineers who feel that something obvious is actually worth patenting),I >> that any competent engineer in SW or HW in the course of a year's worktK >> will reinvent twenty or so obvious techniques that have patents attached   G > I think you miss the purpose of a patent.  A patent rewards the FIRSTaJ > ONE who can devise or improve something with (presumably) the protection$ > to realize FINANCIAL gain from it.  , Wrong. US patents aren't anything like that.   > HM   -- $ 	SanderR   FLW: "I can banish that demon"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:26:13 -0400G( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate + Message-ID: <3B558065.63B5DB56@bigfoot.com>X  I > > I think you miss the purpose of a patent.  A patent rewards the FIRST L > > ONE who can devise or improve something with (presumably) the protection& > > to realize FINANCIAL gain from it. > . > Wrong. US patents aren't anything like that.  E Care to elaborate, or maybe you didn't because you can't back up that ? statement. The following is an ACTUAL citation from Barrons Law= Dictionary:= PATENT OF INVENTION=F A grant of right to exclude others from making, using or selling of anH invention during a specified time; it constitutes a ligitimate monoploy. See 304 F. Supp.357,367.  A If you need help looking up the legal citation at the end of thisnF definition, I'll be more than happy to oblige.  Asking for help is not+ necessarily an admission of your ignorance.a   HM     >  > > HM >  > -- >         Sander >   > FLW: "I can banish that demon"   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 12:22:15 GMT, From: jgh@uk.sun.com (Jeremy Harris [RU-UK])1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate00 Message-ID: <9j3v1n$ebp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  + In article <3B54D17E.51903BBC@bigfoot.com>,V+ 	Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:hM >> Anyone who has actual patent experience will tell you this is far from hown > J > So tell us, do you have actual patent experience?  If so, could you list > them please.  A A quick search at http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html $ returns two, both assigned to Apple.   - Jeremy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:28:29 +0100D% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)8 Message-ID: <cpraltk6m0lj8vp3jbeucr4e5k1hjspg8u@4ax.com>  5 On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:19:50 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"  <dmoc@primenet.com> wrote:   >o6 >I'm sure many people would like to see those numbers.9 >And Bill Todd _must_ have them, if he really understandss> >the economic viability of Alpha enough to tell Terry Shannon,0 >of "Shannon Knows DEC" fame, he's full of shit.  E Bill  is very well aware of who Terry is and both are aware that each F other has had access to figures on which to base their claims. NeitherD has had detailed line item access and Terry might have seen slightlyD later figures than Bill. Terry and Bill were (Bill still is) membersA of a VMS feedback group with reasonable access to Alphaserver/VMS D management.. Bill was one of the main authors of a document produced< by the group on a potential future for VMS. Bill is a former co-developer of RMS.  D There is more to this disagreement than first appears and they wouldF probably agree on more than they disagree believe it or not. What they@ really disagree about is the way to move forward if indeed thereF actually is one.  My heart likes to agree with Terry but my head tends towards Bill's views.y  ? >If Bill Todd can't produce those numbers, it would then appeari> >that he doesn't know jack. Bill Todd would be exposed as justA >another ignorant, conceited, hate-filled, crackpot USENET poser.w  E And you work for Intel I see from your home page. Should have guessed)B really. By calling Bill "another ignorant, conceited, hate-filled,= crackpot USENET poser" you say more about yourself than Bill.h   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:57:20 +0200 & From: Bernd Paysan <bpaysan@mikron.de>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatem) Message-ID: <3B5595C0.B31A3ACF@mikron.de>o   Sander Vesik wrote:CN > That's interesting. I believe that most of patent infringements in the world > happen because either:L >         * people didn't know somebody had already invented and patented it  B Didn't the US patent law had a clause that independent reinvention( allows you to use your invention though?  L >         * somebody patented something they read in a magazine and the rest >           don't know yet  G That's probably the worst one for the patents we discuss here. You read.F something in MPR, or in a conference paper, and you implement it, sellD chips, and after several years, this thing pops up in the USPTO dataC base - patents routinely take 2-5 years between file and grant (nowm@ that's a loooong pipeline ;-). Often, issued patents are alreadyE obsolete, replaced by something better, but your competitor now has a. way to threat you.  . > Wrong. US patents aren't anything like that.  C Indeed. Single patents aren't worth anything. Patent portfolios are.D build up by companies to bargain with other companies - cross patentD licensing is a sort of "piece pipe smoking in the big wigwam". TheseF patent portfolios are used mainly to prevent newcomers from entering a@ market. Patents also do not describe true innovations, but smallE engineering details, especially since it is too difficult to get truetG innovations through the examiners - small details are possible, becausehD the examiner then is on firm ground. That's not just for US patents,F also Konrad Zuse's patent on the programmable computer was rejected byH the German PTO, because they could not see where the innovation was, andB all the parts they could understand (relays, papertape, etc.) were already known.  F At least that's the situation with hard- and software, other fields of innovations may differ.    -- u Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"o http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:00:52 -0700-+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>11 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatet- Message-ID: <9j44r8$t0h$1@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net>t  0 "Robert Harley" <harley@asti.inria.fr> wrote ...H > Funny that, because your own posts are generally devoid of information> > but full of opinion mixed with vitriol.  Look in the mirror.  @ Really ?  Can you point out a specific post ?  Or is this just aB another of the baseless accusations so typical of USENET whiners ?  2 I've been told I'm at my _most_ annoying on USENET when I'm right.d --3 Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc@primenet.comy. Vanity Web Page http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:00:14 +0000 (UTC)o/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>g1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate 2 Message-ID: <995464815.845415@haldjas.folklore.ee>  6 In comp.arch Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote:  J >> > I think you miss the purpose of a patent.  A patent rewards the FIRSTM >> > ONE who can devise or improve something with (presumably) the protection ' >> > to realize FINANCIAL gain from it.  >> w/ >> Wrong. US patents aren't anything like that.s  G > Care to elaborate, or maybe you didn't because you can't back up thatmA > statement. The following is an ACTUAL citation from Barrons Lawt
 > Dictionary:r > PATENT OF INVENTIONnH > A grant of right to exclude others from making, using or selling of anJ > invention during a specified time; it constitutes a ligitimate monoploy. > See 304 F. Supp.357,367.  C > If you need help looking up the legal citation at the end of thisnH > definition, I'll be more than happy to oblige.  Asking for help is not- > necessarily an admission of your ignorance.t  G Back up what? The US patent system is not about 'first to invent' it is A all about 'first to patent'. It doesn't even have to be your own, D you can have talked about it for almost a year in every public forumE you can find. Not to mention the biotech "patents" where no inventionIH was (or in most cases possibly could be made) and the so called inventor is merely an explorer.  3 Your irrelevant dictionary citation proves nothing.h   > HM     >>   >> > HM  >> a >> --d >>         Sander  >> p! >> FLW: "I can banish that demon"t   --   	Sandern   FLW: "I can banish that demon"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:07:39 -0700w+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com> 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatet- Message-ID: <9j457v$t19$1@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net>c  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:cpraltk6m0lj8vp3jbeucr4e5k1hjspg8u@4ax.com...7 > On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:19:50 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"3 > <dmoc@primenet.com> wrote: >e > >@8 > >I'm sure many people would like to see those numbers.; > >And Bill Todd _must_ have them, if he really understands.@ > >the economic viability of Alpha enough to tell Terry Shannon,2 > >of "Shannon Knows DEC" fame, he's full of shit. >sG > Bill  is very well aware of who Terry is and both are aware that eachs@ > other has had access to figures on which to base their claims.  9 Let's see them, then.  All Bill has ever posted AFAICT isu3 "Hey, Compaq [who I consider a bunch of liars] sents8  out a marketing letter with this fuzzily-defined number9  in it, and if I make this and this and this self-servingo!  assumptions, I can conclude ..."o  2 > Neither has had detailed line item access  [...]  ; How do you know what Terry Shannon knows and doesn't know ?-C Apparently, he knows things he won't post for free, and clearly, he * knows things he's under NDA not to reveal.  $ > and Terry might have seen slightlyF > later figures than Bill. Terry and Bill were (Bill still is) membersC > of a VMS feedback group with reasonable access to Alphaserver/VMS4
 > management..  , That doesn't imply he has the relevant info.  9 > Bill was one of the main authors of a document produced > > by the group on a potential future for VMS. Bill is a former > co-developer of RMS.  3 That doesn't imply he has the relevant info either.a- Can't you produce any _good_ reason for us tou7 believe Bill has a clue ?  His posts don't provide any.i  = > [...]  My heart likes to agree with Terry but my head tendsn > towards Bill's views.o  0 Based on what ?  Do _you_ have numbers to post ?  A > >If Bill Todd can't produce those numbers, it would then appearp@ > >that he doesn't know jack. Bill Todd would be exposed as justC > >another ignorant, conceited, hate-filled, crackpot USENET poser.a >g3 > And you work for Intel I see from your home page.   1 And as I've mentioned more than a few times here.-0 What's the relevance ?  I don't speak for Intel.   > Should have guessed really.@  ? Well, Intel has a pretty data-driven culture that is relatively 6 intolerant of the kind of baseless BS and mud-slinging3 propaganda that Bill Todd indulges in, so I can seea why you'd say that.e  6 But here we see again the common tactic of "If I can't: actually _refute_ what you say, I'll try to intimidate you/ into not posting by invoking your employer" BS.y Tsk tsk tsk.  < > By calling Bill "another ignorant, conceited, hate-filled,? > crackpot USENET poser" you say more about yourself than Bill.   : Really ?  Why do you say that ?  Can you back that claim ?/ And can you show that Bill isn't exactly that ?   6 So many of  the people whining about Compaq's decision: seem to be long on conclusions and short on data or logic: are you like that too ?   5 Now, if you losers would just keep it in comp.os.vms, 6 I (like the vast majority of the world) wouldn't care.9 Now, why don't you all do that ?  Really, why don't you ?a --3 Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc@primenet.comg. Vanity Web Page http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:50:12 -0500d+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>.1 Subject: RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DA2A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]  @ > technique to coax customers to go to compaq-NT solutions over  > a greater period
 > of time.  K NT solution -- certainly an oxymoron if it's meant to say "a solution basedR> on NT," but an appropriate marketing slogan for VMS otherwise.   VMS:  The NT solution. ;)m   Regards,   Chris.    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developeru Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");. 'F  4   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:16:31 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatew+ Message-ID: <3B55A84D.D25100B@videotron.ca>M   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:mL > deal). Hence the choices are: hope that Compaq makes the NSK, VMS, and T64F > ports work (which I think they can do), or bleat and whine about the > decision.r  M It isn't a question of whether the port will work or not or whether IA64 willeL provide better or slower performance initially or later. It is a question ofN Compaq's true long term intentions and corporate strategy which do not seem toN include Digital legacy products and seems intent on focusing on wintel as core business for enterprise.  L It isn't a question of whether Compaq will kill VMS before the port. It is aG question of whether Compaq will continue to ignore VMS in its marketing-( because VMS is not part of its strategy.  M It isn't a question or whether the port will be easy or not, it is a question I of VMS already being sick and Compaq starting the transplant of a healthySJ organ  (Alpha) to a new organ, an operation that will take 4 years, duringK which, there were no indications that Compaq would care or heal the problem8 organs (marketing etc).   M Compaq's mini marketing trial may have done good, but if you don't remove alleL of the cancer, it grows back. VMS wasn't completely healed and still suffersM marketing/image problems. During those 4 years, will that cancer grow back tov/ a point where fixing it will be too big a job ?"  J Compaq used the argument that keeping Alpha up to speed would be too big aN problem, hence it was easier to drop Alpha. What happens when Compaq sees that/ to rebuild VMS, it would be too big a problem ?   L > There's been more than enough bleating and whining in this noosegroup. ButG > that's a positive thing, too.. it's allowed me to update my killfile!=  L Not sure if that expression translates to english, but that seems to me likeG an austrich that puts its head in the sand. If you want to see only thecN positive comments about Compaq, that is your right. But history has shown thatK the whining and bleating is an early warning that things won't go very welle	 later on.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:33:38 -0600 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>-1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate1, Message-ID: <3B54F582.DFC1D768@jetnet.ab.ca>   mulp wrote:hL > But not only is Compaq not increasing staff, they aren't keeping it level,N > they are cutting engineers.  Engineers were cut AFTER the decision was made.   But not UPPER MANAGEMENT !!! -- r> "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents...!  We borrow it from our children."b< "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 15:10:32 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate % Message-ID: <9j48t8$dsn@web.nmti.com>i  , In article <3B54A616.C42F79E7@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: N > Microsoft also has a lot of staying power. They flopped big time with WinCE,H > but they kept going at it and now they have a version that is actuallyN > palatable and making strong gains. Strong enough that PSION, the british PDAR > maker recently announced it was dropping out of consumer PDA market alltogether.  E There is very little difference between Windows CE on the Casio A-10, B my first WinCE-based handheld, and my Jornada 548... as far as the? software goes. Transcriber/calligrapher is still a second classwF citizen. The menus are on the bottom ofthe display instead of the top.@ The window decorations are 2d instead of 3d. There's a couple ofD different applications. But the big difference is the Casio was a 40C MHz processor with a black-and-white screen and alkaline batteries,aB whereas the Jornada is a 133 MHz processor with a color screen andG lithium-ion rechargables. Moore's Law, again, is what Microsoft depends1 on to solve their problems.r  O > The same is bound to happen with NT. They will eventually have a version thatnJ > is good enough to be trustable for enterprise applications. And only theP > strongest competitors will stay in the race with the smaller niche market ones > dropping out.   D The fundamental design of NT is actually pretty good. The problem isF that you don't really work on NT, you work on the Win32 subsystem. AllB access to the NT kernel is mediated by an API that is relentlessly@ single-instance. And much of the API is no longer in Microsoft'sE control, but rather the application writers... people don't buy an OS D to run an OS, they buy it to run applications... and Microsoft can't3 change behaviour that those applications depend on.   D A Win32 program has hardcoded registry and file system locations, soG you can really only run a single instance of an application under it. AeC Win32 program assumes it has write-access to the entire system, and B breaks if you attempt to secure it. A Win32 program assumes only aF single user instance is running on the machine, and the security modelD breaks down if you have some trusted and some untrusted code running
 concurrently.   I I can imagine Microsoft producing an operating system suited for a server3E environment, where multiple applications not designed to interoperateyE run on a single computer, but it won't be anything like Windows NT asn@ we know it. This isn't something Moore's Law can solve for them.   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.tE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."nL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:33:26 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>41 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate0, Message-ID: <3B55AC43.D24F5F00@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > Well, DEC did produce Visual Fortran for Windows, which provides aE > basis for comparison.  The problem is that it was comparably pricedo@ > to Microsoft compilers, and that is no good because it totallyB > destroys JF's thesis.  I presume he would prefer we ignore cases* > where a comparison can actually be made.  N I once inquired why the C compiler for a Microvax II costed CAD $6000  (beforeM individual licences were invented). The response I got was that the compikers(H on VMS were far more sophisticated than the $600 ones sold by Microsoft.  L I was mereley asking if there was truly a big difference between the low endC MS compilers and the compilers that were available from DEC on VMS.   I If you want to spin my question into some whining, it is your business. I   don't get into personal attacks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:45:11 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatet, Message-ID: <3B55AF03.2813A8F3@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:cG > Bill  is very well aware of who Terry is and both are aware that eachTH > other has had access to figures on which to base their claims. NeitherF > has had detailed line item access and Terry might have seen slightly > later figures than Bill.  L During the debates over the recent finiancial results news conferences whereK VMS was totally ignored, if I recall correctly, Terry did admit that Compaq-H did not release any VMS specific profit, only enterprise server numbers.  K *IF* that is the case, then one cannot say that VMS is a necessary cash coweM for Compaq's survival. For all we know, it *could* be an insignificant amountrF of net profit that is directly tied to VMS, but a profit nevertheless.  H *IF* VMS profits were not that huge compared to the profits generated byM wintel enterprise servers, it would explain Compaq's handling of VMS. As longrL as it makes money and doesn't hurt Compaq's relationship with Microsoft, VMS will be allowed to live.  I Now, what *IF* VMS really did bring in a significant amount of profits tohL Compaq, significant enough that letting VMS go would really show a huge dropN in Compaq's numbers ? One would think that Compaq would then see VMS as a core0 product and ensure that it is treated very well.  L UNLESS, Compaq is convinced that VMS is a short/medium term source of profitL and that eventually everyone will be running NT, in which case, Compaq wouldN not want to place all its eggs in the VMS basket since eventually VMS would beJ replaced by NT. In that case, Compaq will do what it takes to maintain VMSK profits but won't want to grow nor focus its business on that product if ite0 doesn't think VMS has a bright long term future.  L So far, I have not seen anything which makes me beleive that Compaq has long( term intentions to develop VMS's market.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:51:15 +0200* From: Robert Harley <harley@asti.inria.fr>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatel+ Message-ID: <rz74rsaw80c.fsf@asti.inria.fr>r  - "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com> writes:a; > Let's see them, then.  All Bill has ever posted AFAICT isr
 > [...etc...]y  3 Guys, do us all a favour and get back on topic, eh?i   Rob.J      .-.                Robert.Harley@polytechnique.org                .-.K     /   \           .-.        (+33) 6 7271 2496        .-.           /   \oL    /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \M   /       \       /     \     /   \   / \   /   \     /     \       /       \-N  /         \     /       \   /     `-'   `-'     \   /       \     /         \C             \   /         `-'     ArgoTech        `-'         \   /nB              `-'               http://argote.ch/               `-'   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:57:45 -0500r5 From: "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM>u1 Subject: RE: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateoG Message-ID: <DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA3715304C9072E@mbsus228.mbc.com>n   JF Mezei wrote:s  K >Compaq used the argument that keeping Alpha up to speed would be too big a J >problem, hence it was easier to drop Alpha. What happens when Compaq sees that0 >to rebuild VMS, it would be too big a problem ?  J This quotation captures the essence of most customers "trust" in Compaq...8 It is a Deja Vu downward spiral of the Digital legacy...   Doug Hipenbecker Miller Brewing Co.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:26:28 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatef8 Message-ID: <a6abltci7ktbeqagrorqjm2bvll2rm1167@4ax.com>  5 On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:07:39 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"o <dmoc@primenet.com> wrote:    6 >Now, if you losers would just keep it in comp.os.vms,7 >I (like the vast majority of the world) wouldn't care.b: >Now, why don't you all do that ?  Really, why don't you ?  D I'm not going to argue with a self-admitted sociopath (in your replyC to Bill) but as for us losers keeping it to comp.os.vms please notelC the following post of yours which brought me into this thread. Notei the followup line.  + From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>l1 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.unix.tru64,comp.arch 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatei Followup-To: comp.arch% Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:19:50 -0700e -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:02:48 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatea, Message-ID: <9j4ffo$1ed7$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  G In article <Pine.OSF.4.21.0107171802240.17449-100000@athena.csdco.com>,s%  John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:  |>M |> I'd rather have to read between the lines than have no information at all.r |>  @ Maybe, but would you be willing to bet your business on what you@ "read between the lines", knowing that you have no way to verifyD the validity of that info??  It seems to me that possible and likelyD inaccurate information has much more potential for fatal damage than no information at all.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:49:00 -0600 (MDT)h" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateoG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0107181119390.11168-100000@athena.csdco.com>s   Bill,e  I To answer your question, yes.  Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't see a lot of G options out there.  Trusting any computer company seems unsafe, so I gotH with what works now and probably will continue in the reasonable future.   John  & On 18 Jul 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  I > In article <Pine.OSF.4.21.0107171802240.17449-100000@athena.csdco.com>,f' >  John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:n > |>O > |> I'd rather have to read between the lines than have no information at all.[ > |> > B > Maybe, but would you be willing to bet your business on what youB > "read between the lines", knowing that you have no way to verifyF > the validity of that info??  It seems to me that possible and likelyF > inaccurate information has much more potential for fatal damage than > no information at all. >  > bill >  > -- cL > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |C > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:15:54 -0300o) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brs0 Subject: RE: Alpha: an invitation to communicateL Message-ID: <OF6DC9645F.B5B7A944-ON03256A8D.0058D3AB@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ; Compaq is different from DEC. DEC was a technology company.a; Not a business company. This is reason it was sold. Lack ofd corporate management.TF Compaq is based in stockholders (NASDAQ)..... and now it is becoming aE services company, like HP is trying to be. IBM is a services company.r' Sun is making an agreement with EDS....e  B At the end.... a service company is a "Slavery Company". They dontE give the real value to their "employees" (subcontracted). They change-@ employees so easy. They dont care in firing 4000 or 8500 withoutA thinking in their families. This is the NASDAQ Era. NASDAQ should  be shutdown.  = The next wave to save these Services Companys from bankruptcy"A are "the CEOs (customers) will be told by the CEOs (IT companies)yH that is better for them to fire all their IT staff and subcontract".....  G I know this story  very well. Since 1997 I dont have a real career ....    Regardss   FC        F "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> em 18/07/2001 12:57:45  A Favor responder a "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM>n             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma      0 Assunto: RE: Alpha: an invitation to communicate     JF Mezei wrote:   K >Compaq used the argument that keeping Alpha up to speed would be too big a J >problem, hence it was easier to drop Alpha. What happens when Compaq sees that0 >to rebuild VMS, it would be too big a problem ?  J This quotation captures the essence of most customers "trust" in Compaq...8 It is a Deja Vu downward spiral of the Digital legacy...   Doug Hipenbecker Miller Brewing Co.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:14:06 -0300o) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brD Subject: AlphaPowered WebsitecL Message-ID: <OFE6E3ECDD.747FA213-ON03256A8D.004323C0@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ! Finally they changed the homepage    Clicku   http://www.alphapowered.com/     Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:19:58 -0700t+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>p! Subject: Re: AlphaPowered Websitet( Message-ID: <3B55B72E.B67053EC@mmaz.com>  E Poor web site layout.  Looking at the page and the content discussingp= the flopping over to Intel, they have a big Icon stating thatoF AlphaPowers Win's Big.  Clearly they are referring to old news because1 moving to IPF is certainly not a win for Alpha...    Barry<  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  # > Finally they changed the homepagee >g > Click5 >4 > http://www.alphapowered.com/ >C	 > Regardsw >e > FC   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO4  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:13:46 GMTn. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUstB Message-ID: <_yb57.387$Ef6.40570@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messaget, news:nhH47.778$rc5.60491@news.cpqcorp.net... >rK >   Since I haven't seen this mentioned amid the blizzard of IPF threads....  K I mentioned it earlier - it got lost in the news for the most part.  It wasnK mentioned that Tru64 has been enhanced with the 1ghz Alpha chip in the WallrK Street Journal.  There are several stories about Compaq becoming a servicesnC company and mimicing HP by offering storage and computes on demand.e   >aC >   The One (1) Gigahertz (GHz) AlphaServer GS series marketing andi	 technicalt  >   information is available at:   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:27:07 +0200e< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>- Subject: Re: AlphaServer GS series 1 GHz CPUsl4 Message-ID: <9j3h9k$locmj$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Hoff Hoffman wrote... 5 >    http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/platforms.html     @ The marketing department obviously still has a lot of work to do  
 Click "GS320"e" Click "Advantages / experience it" Look at intro (or "skip intro")h Click "Performance"t Click "See more" Click "Performance"r" Click "Alpha 21264 Microprocessor" Mouse over "3"  J "And the future - With several new generations of Alpha microprocessors inI development and clock speed increases coming fast and furious, Alpha willaE maintain its leadership as the preeminent microprocessor technology."w   <sigh>   cu,h   Martin -- mJ One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:05:59 -0500F+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> 7 Subject: RE: ANNOUNCE: xmcd 3.0 pl1 X11/Motif CD playerkL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DA2B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   Thanks Ti.    J If anyone needs a CD player app, by the way, this is the one to have in my opinion.  I use it regularly.    Regards,   Chrisi  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer/ Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");5 ':  G   > -----Original Message-----$ > From: Ti Kan [mailto:xmcd@amb.org]  . >                         --------------------. >                         X M C D  version 3.0* >                             Patchlevel 1. >                         --------------------( >                              by Ti Kan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:54:32 +0200 : From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>* Subject: Re: Basic quesitons from a newbieJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107181742340.12679-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  " On 16 Jul 2001, Nick Paszty wrote:   >+hello." [...anwers for DELETE was here...]H >+question 2.  i have searched the documentation for the array structure? >+in DCL but have found nothing.  i did find some documentationoG >+indicating that typical array stuctures are not available in DCL.  iseF >+there another clever way to be able to establish a list of items andC >+then loop through them to apply an operation or some other usefulw >+task?e  >  The base_symbol'index_symbol' answer was here, but you may be@ also aware of the f$extract() (fixed-field list) and f$element(): (character-separated list) lexical functions. The location9 in f$extract or item-number in f$element may be used likee; index in table, lexicals also can be used like symbols withb+ the 'f$...()' substitution (but not the &).     B.ex. (in .COM file !):  8 $ ToDoList:=L*/.COM/.C*//*O*	! Supose "/" is a separator $ i=0	! item count $lp:; $ write sys$output "Item[''i']: ",f$element(i,"/",ToDoList)t$ $ direct 'f$element(i,"/",ToDoList)'@ $ if f$element(i,";",ToDoList).nes."/" then pipe i=i+1 ; goto lp  	 >+thanks,t >+ >+nick    Regards - Gotfryd   -- cE =====================================================================cF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEc. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:53:10 -0400t; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>o4 Subject: Re: Check out the Wall Street Journal today$ Message-ID: <3b55b130$1@news.si.com>  I >Our customers consistently say that they prefer the choice,  flexibilitya andwH >cost-efficiency of systems based on industry-leading components, rather than >proprietary technologies.   ???o  2 Since when is Intel not the proprietor of the IPF? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent`< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:43:07 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>-4 Subject: Re: Check out the Wall Street Journal today2 Message-ID: <Y61VO5k7iqcGYk1uc5Pqg7cJiMi2@4ax.com>  < On 17 Jul 2001 18:43:11 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  3 >In article <qU9UO2goqb+xLAeH=ZsDkLTgfyef@4ax.com>,u9 > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:r@ >|> On 17 Jul 2001 14:28:00 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill >|> Gunshannon) wrote: >|> 7 >|> >In article <NbU47.808$rc5.60633@news.cpqcorp.net>,e: >|> > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: >|> >|>eT >|> >|> Our customers consistently say that they prefer the choice,  flexibility andT >|> >|> cost-efficiency of systems based on industry-leading components, rather than# >|> >|> proprietary technologies.    >|> >05 >|> >Ummm....  Isn't OpenVMS proprietary technology??r >|> >r	 >|> >billi >|>  >|> Yes. >|> + >|> The last time I checked, so is Itanium.e >aE >When you come right down to it, anything not public domain (or maybe C >truly open-source) is proprietary.  I was just trying to point out $ >the inconsistancy of the statement.   100% agreement there.1  K >ie.  if they "are dropping support for Alpha because their customers don'ta> >want proprietary." then where does VMS fit into their plan??   < Even if Compaq/Intel create an Itanium capable of supporting> VMS/Tru64/NSK, it will likely have to run with Compaq approvedC hardware instead of any old combination of PC parts.  If that's thelB case, it wouldn't be any different than it is today with an Alpha  inside.B  9 >I'm not saying the staement is valid, just inconsistant.  >sG >I sometimes think what I say here may come off as being very anti-VMS. F >But then I look at what some of the biggest former VMS bigots say and0 >suddenly I sound like one of it's biggest fans.  , Just keep calling them as you see them!  ;-)   >billo   David R. Beatty.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:42:30 +0000 (UTC)i> From: Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it (Napolitano Gennaro) Subject: Checking pathesB Message-ID: <23DC1A5C6E91D411BCD300508B6573E8014E72C9@SEMARMN0006>   Hi All  J Does somebody knows how to show the third party and operative system patch8 list installed on an alpha server running OpenVMS 7.1-2.   Thanks a lot in advancea         --   Posted from [213.255.32.100] i1 via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:06:40 +0100t* From: Andrew Robinson <arobinson@hspg.com> Subject: RE: Checking pathesM Message-ID: <CDA4BAD1E10ED41181AC00508B6051D3C3E2D5@grumpy.internal.hspg.com>r   Try :f   PRODUCT SHOW HIST *   / That should list everything you have installed.w   Andrew Robinsonl     -----Original Message-----) From: Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.itb, [mailto:Gennaro.Napolitano@tlc.semagroup.it] Sent: 18 July 2001 11:43 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr Subject: Checking pathes     Hi All  J Does somebody knows how to show the third party and operative system patch8 list installed on an alpha server running OpenVMS 7.1-2.   Thanks a lot in advanceV         --   Posted from [213.255.32.100] -1 via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORGH   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:51:47 +0200c< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> Subject: Re: Checking pathes4 Message-ID: <9j3t9b$lc38u$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Napolitano Gennaro wrote...yK >Does somebody knows how to show the third party and operative system patch 9 >list installed on an alpha server running OpenVMS 7.1-2..     $ PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT /FULL9 lists products and patches installed via PRODUCT INSTALL.   # $ TYPE SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL.HISTORY  shows VMSINSTAL installations.   cu,    Martin --  J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:42:11 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>- Subject: Re: Compaq as a technology leader???t* Message-ID: <3B5559F3.13F0E906@uk.sun.com>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > s > In article <1vu37.58$Pp.13449@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:d4 > >"Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> wrote in message6 > >news:NPt37.4818$O81.1713900@typhoon1.gnilink.net...M > >> > They are not interested in developing the stuff that came with DigitalV > >andH > >> > want to concentrate on the industry standard stuff (aka: wintel). > >...N > >> financial basket case right now.  Even when Compaq was just WinTel it had > >aO > >> higher than average industry cost structure because its business model wasgM > >> to be the leader in introducing technology. By being the leader it could:K > >> charge a premium price.  That model broke badly when the technology ins > >PC's : > >> exceeded the need and it became a commodity business. > >oK > >Ok, who thinks that Compaq was or is a leader in introducing technology?u > > K > >What are some examples of these technologies since I can't think of any?) >  > First portable PC clone. > $ > First use of 386 with the ISA bus. > ? > After that I wasn't really paying attention to the PC market.p  4 I think we are confusing being good at implimenting . somebody elses technology with developing the  technology itself.  4 Compaq were good at the former and the two examples " you refer to are in that category.   regards  Andrew Harrison- Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:25:42 +0200n& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>+ Subject: Compaq FUD and lack of informationi* Message-ID: <3B55C696.1E9C611E@dplanet.ch>  H It seems clear from recent postings that Sue S, Hoff, Kerry and Fred areC in the dark as much as we are on this.  I suspect that if they knewaH anything of substance there would be subtle hints and guidance from one, some, or all of them.u  E Now the Alpha transition to IA64 *might* be okay but right now CompaqaA management are asking us to trust them and this is very difficultc= because in the last three years they have destroyed their ownn4 credibility on all kinds of matters relating to VMS.  H It is now more than 3 weeks since the announcement and all we are seeing3 is the same information  recycled and regurgitated.e  A The June 25th announcement seemed more like the announcement of anF hurried wedding than of a supposedly professional company presenting a, comprehensive view of its future directions.  G Mike Capellas's comment (as quoted on the web page) is "The bottom linecD is: we are creating great customer value. Our move to the Itanium=99A architecture provides customers and ISVs with the most compellingiE roadmap to next-generation server technology. Customers get increased G performance, price/performance and application support. This reinforcestE our commitment to customer investment protection as well as providingoG the best path for future growth. We believe Intel's architecture is the.G best choice for the enterprise, and for our customers this is truly thet best of both worlds. "  @ I cannot recall ever reading a paragraph with more unsubstantied assertions than this.o  < "Customer value" ?  - on current information this is dubious  7 "compelling roadmap" ?  - only if that is the only roadi  H "next-generation ..technology" ? - Compaq said many times that Alpha wasE superior and they detailed exactly why.  Maybe things will change but E "previous-generation ...technology" may have been more honest at thisk time.e  , "increased performance" ? - yet to be proven  H "increased ... price/performance" ?  - Hmm, let's say 80% performance atD 70% price (until proven otherwise) but hang on, that is only for theA processor, not the whole box.  Maybe the entire system will be 5%5F cheaper ... but now that is 80% performance at 95% price.  Sorry Mike, that's not an *increase*  H "increased ...application support" ? - in your dreams !  Why should thisH happen ?  How can a change of processor suddenly make it more attractive> ?  The ISV's care primarily about the operating system not theH processor.  Unless Compaq put a major effort into marketing VMS there isF no reason to believe that the situation for applications will improve,E in fact with the current uncertainty it is likely to deteriorate evend	 further =i    @ "reinforces our commitment" ? - A 5% (or even 10%) increase on a4 miniscule commitment is still a miniscule commitment  = "best path for future growth" ? - Compaq's not the customers'i  G "Intels architecture is the best choice" ? - but hang on a moment, IA64 D is unproven right now and there are no guarantees that Intel will be/ able to deliver the goods in the next few yearsT  E "best of both worlds" ? - What two worlds are you talking about ??? =o  9 "both worlds" reminds me more of a rock and a hard place.n    7 That was 10 assertions in a paragraph of about 6 lines.e  G Come on Mike, give us some information of substance and let us make ourpH own judgement of the future of VMS.   Compaq's commitment has been sadlyG lacking for far too long.  If you think that this has changed then showeH us the proof.  Sorry, but you've let us down far too many times; we need proof not marketing spiel.     John McLean    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:19:52 GMTu. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>* Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicideB Message-ID: <IEb57.512$Po6.43668@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  9 "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> wrote in message-; news:06757.222562$%i7.125639945@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...0 >0 > "mulp" wrote:_K > > ... However, two RISC machines were rejected as targets for VMS becauseOB > > they lacked the required features to allow VMS to be VMS.  ... >lD > It would be interesting to hear what machines those were, and what > was lacking. >CJ > I suppose one machine was MIPS.  That has only 2 levels for kernel/user,K > not the 4 used by VMS.  And the negative half of 32-bit virtual addressessF > has a fixed usage.  If those were the problems, they could have been7 > easily fixed by some minor cooperation from Mips Inc.p  K The other was PRISM - this was canceled because of the supposed superiority I of MIPS and MIPS compilers.  This is the event that caused Dave Cutler tonG leave.  Cutler's plan was to create a new technology platform which hasrJ personalities to support recompiler of source code from VMS and unix; bothL VMS and unix rejected this strategy.  Then the unix folk rejected microPRISMH because it was too slow - the first pass silicon was tested at twice the- speed of the MIPS chips shipped a year later.-  L Alpha is basically PRISM with 4 modes and several additional instructions to4 make porting VMS and binary translation of VAX code.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 11:32:11 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)@* Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicide* Message-ID: <9j4a5r$op9$1@lisa.gemair.com>  B In article <IEb57.512$Po6.43668@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,- mulp <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote:o: >"Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> wrote in message< >news:06757.222562$%i7.125639945@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com... >> >> "mulp" wrote:L >> > ... However, two RISC machines were rejected as targets for VMS becauseC >> > they lacked the required features to allow VMS to be VMS.  ...  >>E >> It would be interesting to hear what machines those were, and whatm >> was lacking.e >>K >> I suppose one machine was MIPS.  That has only 2 levels for kernel/user, L >> not the 4 used by VMS.  And the negative half of 32-bit virtual addressesG >> has a fixed usage.  If those were the problems, they could have been.8 >> easily fixed by some minor cooperation from Mips Inc. >cL >The other was PRISM - this was canceled because of the supposed superiorityJ >of MIPS and MIPS compilers.  This is the event that caused Dave Cutler toH >leave.  Cutler's plan was to create a new technology platform which hasK >personalities to support recompiler of source code from VMS and unix; both M >VMS and unix rejected this strategy.  Then the unix folk rejected microPRISMeI >because it was too slow - the first pass silicon was tested at twice then. >speed of the MIPS chips shipped a year later. >rM >Alpha is basically PRISM with 4 modes and several additional instructions to 5 >make porting VMS and binary translation of VAX code.  >d  M IIRC, the BIG difference between PRISM and Alpha is that Alpha is 64 bits andp
 PRISM was 32.e   >/   -Jordan Hendersonn jordan@greenapple.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:28:20 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t* Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicide2 Message-ID: <NGj57.931$rc5.64042@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Lets not go down the PRISM rathole.  It was a huge mistake NOT to do it, andD the problem WASN'T the hardware, it was internal stupidity and turf.L Fortunately those most responsible for this mistake have long since left the company.       mulp wrote in message ...L: >"Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> wrote in message< >news:06757.222562$%i7.125639945@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com... >> >> "mulp" wrote:L >> > ... However, two RISC machines were rejected as targets for VMS becauseC >> > they lacked the required features to allow VMS to be VMS.  ...  >>E >> It would be interesting to hear what machines those were, and what  >> was lacking.  >>K >> I suppose one machine was MIPS.  That has only 2 levels for kernel/user, L >> not the 4 used by VMS.  And the negative half of 32-bit virtual addressesG >> has a fixed usage.  If those were the problems, they could have been08 >> easily fixed by some minor cooperation from Mips Inc. >sL >The other was PRISM - this was canceled because of the supposed superiorityJ >of MIPS and MIPS compilers.  This is the event that caused Dave Cutler toH >leave.  Cutler's plan was to create a new technology platform which hasK >personalities to support recompiler of source code from VMS and unix; botheB >VMS and unix rejected this strategy.  Then the unix folk rejected
 microPRISMI >because it was too slow - the first pass silicon was tested at twice thes. >speed of the MIPS chips shipped a year later. >xJ >Alpha is basically PRISM with 4 modes and several additional instructions to5 >make porting VMS and binary translation of VAX code.f >e >t   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:40:13 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)h* Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicide, Message-ID: <9j4hlt$1ed7$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  A In article <06757.222562$%i7.125639945@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,l1  "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> writes:o |> t |> "mulp" wrote:L |> > ... However, two RISC machines were rejected as targets for VMS becauseC |> > they lacked the required features to allow VMS to be VMS.  ...= |> =E |> It would be interesting to hear what machines those were, and what" |> was lacking.M  B Considering the point in time when Alpha came into being, my guess would be MIPS and Sparc.   |> =K |> I suppose one machine was MIPS.  That has only 2 levels for kernel/user,-L |> not the 4 used by VMS.  And the negative half of 32-bit virtual addressesG |> has a fixed usage.  If those were the problems, they could have beenu8 |> easily fixed by some minor cooperation from Mips Inc.  B And what would have been the incentive for Mips Inc. to make theseA changes to their architecture??  Which, of course, bring us rightnC back to the potential problem many have pointed out here to putting 7 all of the VMS eggs in a basket being carried by Intel.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:44:08 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) * Subject: Re: Compaq have committed suicide, Message-ID: <9j4ht8$1ed7$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  B In article <IEb57.512$Po6.43668@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,1  "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:.< |> "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> wrote in message> |> news:06757.222562$%i7.125639945@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com... |> > |> > "mulp" wrote:N |> > > ... However, two RISC machines were rejected as targets for VMS becauseE |> > > they lacked the required features to allow VMS to be VMS.  ...e |> >G |> > It would be interesting to hear what machines those were, and what  |> > was lacking.s |> >M |> > I suppose one machine was MIPS.  That has only 2 levels for kernel/user,sN |> > not the 4 used by VMS.  And the negative half of 32-bit virtual addressesI |> > has a fixed usage.  If those were the problems, they could have been?: |> > easily fixed by some minor cooperation from Mips Inc. |>   |> The other was PRISM - a  H I stand corrected.  I didn't give them credit for being mature enough or3 a big enough player in the field for consideration.t   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:19:41 -0400C5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> M Subject: Re: Compilers go to Intel, hobbyist, CSLG, etc. goes out the window?a2 Message-ID: <Fyj57.930$rc5.64058@news.cpqcorp.net>   mulp wrote in message ...sG >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message . >news:uG0lM0APkSkq@eisner.encompasserve.org...J >> People asked (in this very forum) for VMS to run on commodity hardware.G >> In the middle of tough financial times, Compaq got Intel to fund thei1 >> port.  Compaq responded (even if by accident).a > ? >All that was required for VMS to run on commodity hardware wastG >    1) for Compaq sales reps to stop competing against other companiesD
 selling AlphaD    K I'm not quite sure I agree.  I think what was needed was for us to activelys= promote, support, reference sell, and maybe even resell them.o  . >    2) make the SRM console readily available >l  1 The SRM was packaged and licensed to 3rd parties..   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:36:49 -0400-. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>; Subject: Re: DCL code will break in Alpha -> IPF migration?c+ Message-ID: <9j43ch$d7i$1@bob.news.rcn.net>E  = Hoff Hoffman <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messagef, news:FJ157.894$rc5.62074@news.cpqcorp.net...   <snip>  H >   That said, a discussion on this topic is running here within OpenVMSF >   Engineering, and I expect we should have documentation for how theG >   OpenVMS IPF systems will identify themselves reviewed and ready forjG >   the CETS2001 presentations in September, if not (well) before then.hJ >   (The discussion specifically cites a range for the SYI$_HW_MODEL codesI >   for IPF systems, lest we have to go through this mess yet again.  :-)2 >2  K Whenever the results of such 'discussions' are finalized,  please make them-J available via the Web so that ISVs can get a leg up on making the requiredI changes, or at least stick in some placeholders for future modifications.sJ Having this discussed at CETS2001 is a good idea, but I'm sure that others" would be interested in it as well.   Ken Randelli   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:01:07 +0100n- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>T9 Subject: Re: DEC C Doc of lib$routines.h and descriptor.hS/ Message-ID: <3B555E63.94B16464@herald.ox.ac.uk>h   Mark Vance wrote:a8 > $descriptor(dirdesc,"disk$something:[top.newdirname");   Something like that...   > lib$create_dir(&dirdesc);t  
 Now if you do   $   iret = lib$create_dir( &dirdesc );  B instead, you can check if iret == SS$_NORMAL ( #include <ssdef> ).   SeeeJ http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/5932/5932pro_004.html#create_dir   -- - http://i.am/getting_married1, ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 09:15:28 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)t9 Subject: Re: DEC C Doc of lib$routines.h and descriptor.h83 Message-ID: <GnWqffXxX4Cc@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  ( In article <3B5504A3.7080203@iglou.com>,  ) Mark Vance <mvance@iglou.company> writes:s >e. > Anyone know where I can access these online. >e > Using DEC C.......  "     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/  I     There is a link to the documentation for the OpenVMS Operating systems     on that page.   -     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/t  >     The Compaq C (former DEC C) documentation is online there.    D > I need to create directories on the fly, then check to see if I've; > created them before proceeding...Anyone have any ideas...d >i > I think i make the dir with: >c8 > $descriptor(dirdesc,"disk$something:[top.newdirname"); > lib$create_dir(&dirdesc);d  < Or more simply use mkdir("disk$something:[top.newdirname]");    The closing bracket is required.  F > But i don't know what lib routine I should use to check for the dirs. > existence before i continue....Any thoughts?  E     result  = stat("disk$something:[top]newdirname.dir", &stat_info);w  G     If result is 0 or higher, then the stat_info structure will containgE     information on the file.  Then you can check to verify that it is      a directory.     -Johno wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:55:33 -0400d8 From: "Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com>5 Subject: DEC VMS Style keyboards in Stock USD 50 each4/ Message-ID: <tlbj2c50bjp411@news.supernews.com>   # We have a Qty of VMS Style Keyboardt  ; LK46W-A2 - these a Frost White PS/2  -the same thing as thee LK411    Call if you wanna buy some     -- David B Turner	 Sales Dpt  Island Computers US Corporationp 2700 Gregory Streeta	 Suite 150o Savannah GA 31404o Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0096n sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com' http://www.islandco.com/legal-email.htmb   We sell Alpha's !    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 00:17:18 -0700/ From: Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) J Subject: Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)= Message-ID: <4495ef1f.0107172317.39e78555@posting.google.com>g   Mark Garrett <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> wrote in message news:<B77B24A0.1C133%Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au>...* > [snip...silly patent infringement stuff] > M >     I don't believe there is any specially technology that makes alpha fastm6 > that is not know or available to Intel, IBM, HP etc.  F And you would be wrong.  Although it is not so much the technology perF se as the experience of the designers.  There is also expertise within4 Intel, IBM, and HP that does not exist within Alpha.   > This spin from CPQ orpM > whoever that some how Alpha will live on inside Itanium and make it better,rM > I'd call that BS. The performance battles for this new chip won't be foughtW2 > in silicon design teams but by compilers teams.    I'd say the opposite.o   > CPQ also spins a nice lineN > that there compilers will go to make this an easy port and good performance.  @ I'm unsure about that too, but once again, they are getting someA really good compiler people that can help them look at problems ay different way.  F > The only part of the compilers from alpha will be the syntax parsing > components   Okay, whatever.e   > [snip...my eyes hurt]t   Brannonc   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 06:04:36 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)bJ Subject: Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)3 Message-ID: <QA$nD0RPN4Jf@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <B77B24A0.1C133%Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au>, Mark Garrett <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> writes:aF > in article DElTuioJNV26@eisner.encompasserve.org, Larry Kilgallen at> > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote on 18/07/2001 11:44: > P >> In article <name99-1707011629260001@il0203a-dhcp93.apple.com>, name99@mac.com >> (Maynard Handley) writes:L >>> In article <009FF22B.42FD96BE@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG
 >>> wrote: >>>> rK >>>> Gee, there was a lot of truth in that one paragraph.  Alpha influencediM >>>> Pentium design via intel's patent rip-offs.  Digital's business problemsr >>> I >>> it does not add anything useful to the debate to characterize Intel'seN >>> patent infringement as a "rip-off". This implies Intel engineers hitting aL >>> roadblock, unable to solve the problem, and coming up with a solution by >>> searching patent databases.i >> o >> You might infer that. >> hJ >> Based on what was said at the time of the lawsuit, Intel had been given5 >> non-disclosure access to Alpha design information.u >>   >> I have no direct knowledge. > L > My understanding was the technology used from Alpha to Pentium had nothingE > to do with the processor family architecture and was only the cache / > management especially in relationship to SMP.V  E That would not affect whether the patent infringement was a "rip-off"oB of intellectual property, which is the point to which I responded.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:36:39 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-J Subject: Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)8 Message-ID: <m3taltgm3cktb0ni43f7co67v9pcerkb5h@4ax.com>  / On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:31:57 GMT, Mark Garrett 2E >The only part of the compilers from alpha will be the syntax parsingoJ >components the hard work in DEC's compilers has been to produce blazingly4 >fast alpha code all of that just hits the dust bin.  E Not true as they are also getting GEM and there already is a GEM IA64r- back-end. Just how optimized I wouldn't know.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:25:56 +0100 , From: Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>J Subject: Re: DEC-Intel lawsuit (was: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0107181613210.28735-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>  % On 18 Jul 2001, Brannon Batson wrote:x       > I'd say the opposite.o >i > > CPQ also spins a nice lineP > > that there compilers will go to make this an easy port and good performance. > B > I'm unsure about that too, but once again, they are getting someC > really good compiler people that can help them look at problems ao > different way. >fH > > The only part of the compilers from alpha will be the syntax parsing > > components >k > Okay, whatever.M  7 I suppose we can all stop pretending Dec is Compaq now.e  I The problem with many compilers is passing a view of the top level forestsC down to the code generator. The Dec compilers are particularly goodeI at recognising access patterns to generate prefetching and write hinting.-E In the real world timely cache management can be as or more importantm  scheduling 8 queens effectively.  < Both the intel and HP compiler groups are very good too, but7 Dec has had both a history of targetting more registersr9 than intel (as does HP), but has also been supporting x86e: so retargetting may not be as big an issue for them as HP.C So personally, I wouldn't bet against the Dec people reapplying the.; compiler technology *very* competitively, whether wholesale ; or by integration of key parts and optimisation techniques.e   Peter    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 06:07:22 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <TyfqX$BmZVUW@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  u In article <bU557.2405$Mi6.251160@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes: B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message. > news:c8G47.766$rc5.60327@news.cpqcorp.net...M >> Check the subjects of PAL/SAL and EFI.  The console for IPF is pretty much K >> what we wanted to do to resolve the problem of having the SRM and havingn > thenI >> ARC consoles (a unified console).  It appears pretty complete.  We ared > stillSL >> looking at it to try and devine a few things - like the ability to have aJ >> non-graphics console (it does define headless booting).  Some things we > knowH >> we don't get - like MOP booting (it uses something defined by a "PXE"G >> specification) - but it also is extensible so we *could* write a MOPkM >> protocol handler.  It remains to be seen *exactly* what we will want addednG >> to the console, if anything.  And what we will move into the O/S (as > >> appropriate).  We are working on these questions right now. > L > I've been reading them and my interpretation is that the EFI support is toK > add device support by having a ROM on an adapter board that contains byteiN > code (EFI is supposed to be written in byte code) so that it can be executedI > on IA32 and IA64.  This would be the way you configure the Adaptec SCSItA > adapter for fast/slow mode, internal/external termination, etc.  > 6 > I like this explanation of PXE, seems appropriate...L > "WHAT IS PXE?  Peudoxanthoma elasticum (PXE) is an inherited disorder ..." > N > But PXE is basically BOOTP/TFTP.  There's no reason that BOOTP/TFTP can't beL > used to load the initial "IPB", but the infrastructure changes required onN > the host end will be more fun than VMS implementing a DECnet independent MOP > loader (1 man year).  C Somehow, I get the feeling Compaq will not be revising the softwarew9 for my Infoservers, so anything but MOP is a non-starter.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:15:09 -0400t5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 2 Message-ID: <puj57.928$rc5.63936@news.cpqcorp.net>   mulp wrote in message ...h >wK >I've been reading them and my interpretation is that the EFI support is todJ >add device support by having a ROM on an adapter board that contains byteD >code (EFI is supposed to be written in byte code) so that it can be executedH >on IA32 and IA64.  This would be the way you configure the Adaptec SCSI@ >adapter for fast/slow mode, internal/external termination, etc. >c    H There are two existing ROM object formats of any interest, the IA32, andK OpenBoot formats (OpenBoot is a binary encoded FORTH program and is used by4K Sun and Apple).  The Itanium type that is proposed seems to be IA32 or IA64tI binary.  A passing reference I've seen to "intermediate byte stream image L type" I haven't been able to tell if that means OpenBoot format, or some newH IA64 format (it says it's a place holder for a new format TBD - why they: don't just use OpenBoot is beyond me if that is the case).    5 >I like this explanation of PXE, seems appropriate...iK >"WHAT IS PXE?  Peudoxanthoma elasticum (PXE) is an inherited disorder ..."  >eJ >But PXE is basically BOOTP/TFTP.  There's no reason that BOOTP/TFTP can't beK >used to load the initial "IPB", but the infrastructure changes required onhI >the host end will be more fun than VMS implementing a DECnet independentm MOPnK >loader (1 man year).  Of course if its done right, it would be step towardoG >running VMS on top of IP (3 man years).  And over a WAN (8 man years).tK >Not a problem - I'm sure that VMS has an unlimited budget for porting whats3 >with Intel kicking in lots of cash for porting....l    H Hmmm.  I believe that we already have BOOTP done.  And I'm not sure whatK "running VMS on top of IP" means, we have any number of systems that do note' run DECnet, only IP, or DECnet over IP.g  F The real question is if there is or will be a need to boot an IPF fromL something that only understands MOP.  If this is a requirement, then we will' need to look at a MOP protocol handler.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:16:22 -0400e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.l2 Message-ID: <yvj57.929$rc5.64017@news.cpqcorp.net>  $ Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ... > D >Somehow, I get the feeling Compaq will not be revising the software: >for my Infoservers, so anything but MOP is a non-starter.  K But the answer "might" be that you can't boot an IPF from an Infoserver.  I, don't know.c   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 13:47:32 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)5) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.>3 Message-ID: <zX4TcNNEiiNk@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <yvj57.929$rc5.64017@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > & > Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ... >>E >>Somehow, I get the feeling Compaq will not be revising the softwares; >>for my Infoservers, so anything but MOP is a non-starter.e > M > But the answer "might" be that you can't boot an IPF from an Infoserver.  Ie
 > don't know.a  ? Ferrying CD-ROM upgrade disks around to each machine is a pain.>C (Admittedly less painful at LJK Software than at big money customere sites, but still...)   ------------------------------  / Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:08:54 +0200 (MET DST)u& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: Gartner reporth6 Message-ID: <200107180608.IAA22814@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Hal Kuff wrotes:   <<<  Where did you read this? >>>r  D I did not read the report. I did read a WEBpage of WWW.SILICON.DE. AE NEWS server like THEREGISTER or so. There was a newsnumber within theaD URL. I can't remember. But may be, if you a able to read German text' try to go to WWW.SILICON.DEs home page.i   Regards Rudolf Wingert  I P.S. In this artikle the wrote about NSK, TRUE64 and OpenVMS. The opinioncD of the write is: NSK and TRUE64 will be still alive and OpenVMS will sink like the Titanic.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 09:10:29 -0700  From: moi_is_me@usa.net (Pierre)' Subject: Hardware Diagnotics for XP1000>= Message-ID: <cdbc7707.0107180810.3ff29dd6@posting.google.com>n  
 Greetings,J   In an earlier posting I reported my XP1000 would machine check, and thatF   the SRM would sometimes report ... Unexpected CRD through vector 630     Stephen Hoffman replied   I >>  The error indicates that the AlphaStation XP1000 system involved was  L >>  "surprised" by an incident of a CRD ("Correctable Read Data") interrupt.  J >>  This typically indicates a hardware problem, something I would tend toI >>  assume indicates bad or marginal memory, bad or marginal cache, or a - >>  bad motherboard.  : >>  Contact your hardware service provider for assistance.  J When the engineer (technician) came out, he pulled one bank of memory out,K and left, but I was told to switch banks if the problem continued. If afterdF that, the problem was still there - call him. The problem continued, IL switched memory banks, and the problem continued. He came back and replaced L the CPU - no tests were performed. He went away on a course, and the problemM continued. Unexpected CRD is still sometimes reported by the SRM. The machine D has NOT "machine-checked" since the replacement, but HANG's instead.  I I patiently waited to report to him the problem was still present. Now I sG am told by the dispatchers I must log a NEW call - the guy seemed to be-7 suggesting that I have a NEW problem - I dont think so.f  C What diagnostic tools are availble to determine the exact problem ?t  H What are engineers supposed to do to diagnose problems ?, simply replace" parts until the problem is fixed ?  = Any advice / suggestion about what to do next is appreciated.    TIA    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:16:12 +0100-0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World* Message-ID: <3B558C1C.5694EACC@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,- > N > >> As I said earlier, all external indications show that Compaq has focussedN > its resources on Wintel and because of that it is clear that your management0 > despite your bluster don't argee with you. >>> > K > Well, you are certainly free to state the standard Sun lines, but I would  > disagree with them.p > L > Btw, I love the way you twist stuff like "it is clear that your managementI > despite your bluster don't argee with you." when you have absolutely no  > supporting information.- >  > :-)  >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultante > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Servicesc > Voice: 613-592-4660$ > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----9 > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]i > Sent: July 16, 2001 12:05 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt" > Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World >  > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >a > > Andrew,  > > 2 > > Hey, you are back to the old fud stuff again.. > >sB > > >>> You clearly don't understand the concept of relative size.K > > Tru64/OpenVMS/NSK do generate billions of dollars of revenue for Compaq  > bute > > Wintel generates more. >>> > >tM > > And you clearly have no idea of how a business person thinks. Most of theeN > > ones that I know think BILLIONS of dolars is a big thing no matter how you > > look at it.n > < > Define a business person. Most business people that I know8 > would consider billions of dollars of revenue as being6 > significant but there is no external indication that7 > the business people we are talking about (Your board)i5 > do. Does that mean that by your definition your owni4 > management are not business people ?? you are on a > slippery slope here. > > > As I said earlier, all external indications show that Compaq= > has focussed its resources on Wintel and because of that it : > is clear that your management despite your bluster don't > argee with you.u >   6 So Kerry why don't you provide some concrete examples 6 of how Compaq is being even handed with respect to its, support for Wintel and its other platforms.   5 Preferably not unnamed references and unattributable o# sources which is the general faire.e   Regards  Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:23:08 +0100r0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>F Subject: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?* Message-ID: <3B55557C.E41DCA6F@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Jon, > * > re: not wanting to go to OpenVMS/IA64 .. > K > >>> We have a LOT of clients on VMS, I'd hate to see them all get told to: > migrate over to AIX.<< > C > Which I am sure you have heard is moving to IA64 as well ..AIX 5L7 > (optionally Power4 as well). >    However   6 AIX 5L runs currently on PowerX and IBM have no stated6 or even rumoured intention of dropping Power in favour	 of IA-64.s  5 AIX is being ported to IA-64 by IBM as an attempt to  3 provide a common commercial UNIX across their high a2 volume Power based systems and their lower volume / Intel based UNIX systems which are the systems g. that were origionally Sequents running DYNIX.   4 This should not be seen as IBM getting soft on power2 any more than Sun providing Solaris for Intel is a" sign that Sun is abandoning SPARC.   Regards  > Reference:( > http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/monterey/K > "...whose primary goals have been to enhance AIX with proven technologiesoJ > and to deliver the industry's best enterprise-class UNIX for Intel's new1 > 64-bit microprocessor based systems (Itanium)."  > 
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultanta > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Serviceso > Voice: 613-592-4660  > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----) > From: Jon [mailto:jsmyth69@hotmail.com]e > Sent: June 27, 2001 10:40 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComyH > Subject: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices? > 6 > David Spencer <spencer@spaamfree.recneps.com> wrote: > F > >Okay, suppose you've got a lot of Alpha gear that's running VMS (orG > >Tru64 for that matter).  Right about now you've got to be looking atJ@ > >your choices down the road. As everybody knows, in the futureA > >you're going to need more computing capacity. Given the recentwH > >shocking news about Alpha going to Intel (and basically disappearing) > >- what are your choices?  > >l > >1) Stick with Alphas. > >tH > >You could snap up systems as they're released up to the point that noD > >new revisions are available. Then you go into the used market andG > >add additional systems and keep clustering. This might work out okay E > >as long as you can keep getting parts and somebody to maintain thegJ > >systems. You might actually do pretty well on the used gear as a numberI > >of folks would be swapping out old Alphas for Itaniums or other vendort
 > >gear... > >a > >2) Make the leap to Itanium.i > >nI > >You trust that Compaq and Intel know what they're doing. Hang in thereaI > >with what you've got until the new iVMS systems are available. By 2003aH > >those Itanium systems will be as fast and as reliable as your currentG > >(or the currently available) Alphas on the market. Then you make ther9 > >conversion to the new hardware and keep on trucking...d > > - > >3) Given the advance warning, get out now.n > > K > >You've decided against #1 because you're not sure you want to get lockedhG > >into the same systems forever. Number 2 isn't for you either because J > >you're not impressed by Intel's track record on this chip, and besides,C > >if you're going to be doing a conversion why not interview othern > >vendors?- > >- > >-  > >Which number are you and why? > E >  #3 is what my company is taking.  Once word of the change got out,DH > our salespeople started squaking about not being able to make a profitF > off of any intel sales.  The execs have made an announcement that weF > are now looking at selling ONLY ibm systems.  I've convinced them toF > adopt a wait and see view, but it doesn't look good here.  We have aE > LOT of clients on VMS, I'd hate to see them all get told to migratee > over to AIX.   -- a Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architectd   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:02:31 -0300n) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br F Subject: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?L Message-ID: <OFE47E2CAA.1B8205C4-ON03256A8D.003C7B05@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   My choices probably will be:  
 a) Solaris b) HPUX0   Why ?o  J Tru64 there is not a consistent base of customers in Brazil. If the things
 change....F AIX have, but working for IBM is the same of "dont have real support".J We have problems here with Tivoli and Lotus. There is no support for these	 products.g   Regardsr   FC        A andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> em 18/07/2001 06:23:08   < Favor responder a andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       F Assunto: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices?       "Main, Kerry" wrote: >b > Jon, >n* > re: not wanting to go to OpenVMS/IA64 .. >fK > >>> We have a LOT of clients on VMS, I'd hate to see them all get told to  > migrate over to AIX.<< >sC > Which I am sure you have heard is moving to IA64 as well ..AIX 5Ly > (optionally Power4 as well). >    However   6 AIX 5L runs currently on PowerX and IBM have no stated6 or even rumoured intention of dropping Power in favour	 of IA-64.o  4 AIX is being ported to IA-64 by IBM as an attempt to2 provide a common commercial UNIX across their high1 volume Power based systems and their lower volumea. Intel based UNIX systems which are the systems- that were origionally Sequents running DYNIX.i  4 This should not be seen as IBM getting soft on power2 any more than Sun providing Solaris for Intel is a" sign that Sun is abandoning SPARC.   Regards0 > Reference:( > http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/monterey/K > "...whose primary goals have been to enhance AIX with proven technologiesXJ > and to deliver the industry's best enterprise-class UNIX for Intel's new1 > 64-bit microprocessor based systems (Itanium)."n >l
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultantn > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Servicess > Voice: 613-592-4660w > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----) > From: Jon [mailto:jsmyth69@hotmail.com]t > Sent: June 27, 2001 10:40 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComoH > Subject: Re: If you operate VMS systems, what really are your choices? >l6 > David Spencer <spencer@spaamfree.recneps.com> wrote: >iF > >Okay, suppose you've got a lot of Alpha gear that's running VMS (orG > >Tru64 for that matter).  Right about now you've got to be looking ate@ > >your choices down the road. As everybody knows, in the futureA > >you're going to need more computing capacity. Given the recenttH > >shocking news about Alpha going to Intel (and basically disappearing) > >- what are your choices?t > >  > >1) Stick with Alphas. > >aH > >You could snap up systems as they're released up to the point that noD > >new revisions are available. Then you go into the used market andG > >add additional systems and keep clustering. This might work out okaysE > >as long as you can keep getting parts and somebody to maintain the3J > >systems. You might actually do pretty well on the used gear as a numberI > >of folks would be swapping out old Alphas for Itaniums or other vendori
 > >gear... > >P > >2) Make the leap to Itanium.  > >EI > >You trust that Compaq and Intel know what they're doing. Hang in thereXI > >with what you've got until the new iVMS systems are available. By 2003sH > >those Itanium systems will be as fast and as reliable as your currentG > >(or the currently available) Alphas on the market. Then you make thet9 > >conversion to the new hardware and keep on trucking...C > > - > >3) Given the advance warning, get out now.s > >sK > >You've decided against #1 because you're not sure you want to get locked G > >into the same systems forever. Number 2 isn't for you either becausegJ > >you're not impressed by Intel's track record on this chip, and besides,C > >if you're going to be doing a conversion why not interview otherh > >vendors?e > >a > >t  > >Which number are you and why? > E >  #3 is what my company is taking.  Once word of the change got out,oH > our salespeople started squaking about not being able to make a profitF > off of any intel sales.  The execs have made an announcement that weF > are now looking at selling ONLY ibm systems.  I've convinced them toF > adopt a wait and see view, but it doesn't look good here.  We have aE > LOT of clients on VMS, I'd hate to see them all get told to migratea > over to AIX.   -- Andrew Harrison4 Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:15:10 +0100f% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s! Subject: Re: ISV's and VMS futurea8 Message-ID: <6jkalt83ng3tsv2n6ouqvgjatlob0h87lm@4ax.com>  7 On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:28:46 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >s >yH >If thq Q were *REALLY* reading this newsgroup, we'd have had Affordable+ >OpenVMS for VAX, Alpha and IA32 years ago.   @ If Compaq don't have a third party monitoring this newsgroup (HiF guys!) then they're even more incompetent than I can possibly imagine.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:00:19 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br ! Subject: Re: ISV's and VMS futureyL Message-ID: <OFFFB262B2.B4ED252E-ON03256A8D.003C55B6@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  K Companies such: Process, Raxco, Execsoft, and etc.. should be worried abouts2 the change !  And look for a way to get alive  !!!   Regardsn   FC        6 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> em 18/07/2001 06:15:10  1 Favor responder a Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come      ! Assunto: Re: ISV's and VMS future     7 On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:28:46 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >o >aH >If thq Q were *REALLY* reading this newsgroup, we'd have had Affordable+ >OpenVMS for VAX, Alpha and IA32 years ago.l  @ If Compaq don't have a third party monitoring this newsgroup (HiF guys!) then they're even more incompetent than I can possibly imagine.   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 08:53:33 -0700) From: mccabe@usdesign.com (Thomas McCabe)nX Subject: JOB: Technical Support Representative needed with VMS Skills- Columbia Maryland= Message-ID: <c846d458.0107180753.345c00f0@posting.google.com>     Technical Support Representative  F U.S. Design, an Optical Storage Systems Developer located in Columbia,D Maryland, is seeking a Technical Support Representative.  ExperienceC with DEC OpenVMS is essential!  UNIX experience is a plus!  Primaryo< focus will be supporting new and existing software products.> Occasional travel required.  Candidate must be a U.S. citizen.C Excellent benefits package:  medical, dental, vision, 401K, tuitioneD reimbursement and more.  Resumes should be emailed to Lorrie Manning (manning@usdesign.com).r   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 08:31:12 -0700) From: mccabe@usdesign.com (Thomas McCabe)bY Subject: MD-COLUMBIA-JOB: VMS Systems and Software Engineers- US DESIGN- Storage Solutiont= Message-ID: <c846d458.0107180731.5ccdd7ef@posting.google.com>t  " VMS Systems and Software Engineers  C U.S. Design, an optical jukebox systems developer, has an immediate E opening in our Engineering Department to develop and maintain our new = and existing products.  Knowledge of the following is a plus:4  "  VMS, Windows NT, UNIX experience  JAVA Programming  SCSI Controllers  Real Time Embedded Systems  Optical Technology!  Network Protocol ImplementationE  
 Education:E BS in Computer Science and 3 years experience in software developmentm   Position Type: Full Time  " send resumes to vacek@usdesign.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:53:16 -0400k* From: Doug Mallory <dmallory@interlog.com>4 Subject: Re: Multinet NFS client and Linux Problems., Message-ID: <3B5594CB.8EECB4F0@interlog.com>   Mark Vance wrote:-  I > Help!  Im trying to make my little 3100 with vms 7.1 and Multinet writeeI > files to my Linux box.  I keep getting Write errors and incompatability.J > errors...  I can read files off that linux box with the 3100, but i cantG > write to them.  I have set the privs up in linux exports, and set theoF > uic tranlastion in Multinet.   Is there some qualifiers i should use0 > when I Nfsmount the linux drive with multinet? >tI > Thanks!  If possible  please REPLY ALL, so a copy of your astute answer / > can show up in my box too, in case i miss it.t >cK > This is a fine newsgroup, BTW.  Very informed poeple here.  Thanks again!c  ? I don't use Multinet, but I have had this problem with Tcpware. H I found that the transfer size from the VMS side is 4096 bytes, but *nixK boxes default to 1024. If you are mounting the NFS service as a VMS client,,M use a blocksize qualifier (sorry don't know the exact switch for Multinet) in M you mount command. This problem made it hard to install NetBSD from a TcpwaredK NFS server, I had to use a Linux box as I couldn't configure the block size K in the install script. If I remember the last time I mounted an NFS serviceeL on Linux served from TCPware, I needed to set the -bs qualifier on the mount to make it work (e.g. -bs=4096)l Hope this helps. Doug.a   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 05:56:39 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)s% Subject: My final take on the subject-= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0107180456.5570c58a@posting.google.com>h  C I've read some heated arguments on <that topic> in this group. I'veh evenA seen one between two Compaq employees of all people. Many containaD words not rated suitable for a "prime time viewing" family newsgroup such as c.o.v.  E I'm willing to give the OpenVMS team my trust and respect - they haveu earnedF it *over and over* again ever since I have been involved with OpenVMS. I forIB one have *never* caught them out as far as lies or any underhanded behaviour isE concerned. M$ on the other hand... well you can do that at least onceo a week.h  CC They have their work cut out for them and wasting any more of theiri time on thisE topic is not doing OpenVMS any favours. _Clearly_ they have been told ? to DO THE PORT!. _Clearly_ Compaq are paying for them to do so.   A OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down the E track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then InD will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single CompaqB product again. Not that we buy many Compaq WINTEL products anyway.$ I've also stated that if I _have to_B support WINTEL then I am outta the industry - life is too short to
 have to doF a job you don't like (or hate) - in that respect my workplace would no longer be my decision.   E Our Novell administrator would not touch a Compaq _or_ Dell WINTEL if: his lifeD depended on it. He is responsible for around 300 WINTELs in teachingE computer laboratories and they get replaced every two to three years.l	 His localeD PC supplier can provide noname equipment for a lab fitout with about onel2 to two weeks notice. Spare parts are not an issue.  D The main "servers" behind this are as generic as possible PC clones.	 His wordssC are "their greatest strength can be interpreted by some to be theird greatestB weakness" meaning "Yes they are generic crud, however I can have a
 shelf fullB of spares and fix them instantly for less money than you make in a
 month". He@ has to also support nearly 500 "products" on those PCs - it is a University -> every Academic is free to choose any low quality piece of crud; software they want and it has to work in any given computers laboratory.?  E Then again in our computer room there is a cardboard box containing ar new diskC drive sitting above each of the RAID arrays (that also includes thec OpenVMS andi Tru-64 Alphas).a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:52:47 -0400K- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e) Subject: Re: My final take on the subject , Message-ID: <3B55B0CB.AF39A560@videotron.ca>   Patrick Young wrote:C > OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down theeG > track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then I F > will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single Compaq > product again.  I But what if Compaq, through its new software/support growth plan, has thewK solutions that will allow you to migrate away from VMS to NT and Compaq hasM the best available solution ?   K What if Compaq gets to know its remaining VMS customers very well and knowsnN exactly what software/features are needed on NT to convince these customers to+ move to NT wich may offer better solutions?   M Digital failed with its migration to NT because  NT wasn't ready, didn't haver9 the right "enterprise" applications and lacked stability.o  M But what if Compaq is more patient and ensures that NT is ready before askingI customers to move from VMS ?  I If the applications on NT start to have more power and more of the modernsI features whereas the ones on VMS start to lag, then customers will have asK tendency to move away from VMS. Look at the Oracle applications.  If Oracle L has truly stopped updating its application suite on VMS and will only updateL the database engine, then VMS customers that used the application suite will migrate to another platform.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 12:04:40 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e) Subject: Re: My final take on the subjectb3 Message-ID: <42Xx+tOXD4eT@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3B55B0CB.AF39A560@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Patrick Young wrote:D >> OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down theH >> track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then IG >> will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single Compaq  >> product again., > K > But what if Compaq, through its new software/support growth plan, has themM > solutions that will allow you to migrate away from VMS to NT and Compaq hasS > the best available solution ?  >   > 	Ummmm... because Dell will actually have the best solution asD 	everyone is chasing margin curves that Dell is setting.  The theoryA 	in Q4 2000 was that Dell wasn't about to maintain their _lower_ aH 	margins, that sooner or later their strategy of garnering market share G 	would have to change as they were "sacrificing margins at the altar ofh. 	market share" and that can't last, yada yada.  C 	However, two quarters later and they are still at it and MD let itdC 	be known he wasn't about to "let up."  So if you think that Compaq E 	or HP or IBM senior management thinks this NT thing is a good thing,sE 	you haven't been paying attention.  IBM early on "saw" the folly and H 	is pumping $1 billion into Linux in the hopes to attract cross-platformE 	developers to maintain application availabilty.  Not in a sustainingtA 	fashion but in a growth-minded fashion for their core Datacentert 	OSes (OS/390, OS/400, AIX).  > 	It is foolishness to steer people away from your high margin @ 	product.  Yes, folks are going to go there (NT) but encouragingB 	that is silly as IBM full well knows, and others have recognized.: 	Pick up *all* the needed revenues in servicing NT whether. 	hardware or software support?  Bwah-ha-ha-ha.   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:58:58 -0300h) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bry) Subject: Re: My final take on the subject L Message-ID: <OFD58E9B26.B8294BFC-ON03256A8D.0057A446@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  E What I see in this migration is : The staff which developed  NT/AlphaWG can return to the NT/Itanium market and they will be greater evauleted.cG The 64 bit culture is not developed yet and they can contribute a lot !n   Regardsl   FC        > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> em 18/07/2001 12:52:47  9 Favor responder a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma      ) Assunto: Re: My final take on the subjectW     Patrick Young wrote:C > OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down the.G > track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then I-F > will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single Compaq > product again.  I But what if Compaq, through its new software/support growth plan, has theeK solutions that will allow you to migrate away from VMS to NT and Compaq hasb the best available solution ?b  K What if Compaq gets to know its remaining VMS customers very well and knows K exactly what software/features are needed on NT to convince these customers  to+ move to NT wich may offer better solutions?   H Digital failed with its migration to NT because  NT wasn't ready, didn't have9 the right "enterprise" applications and lacked stability.u  F But what if Compaq is more patient and ensures that NT is ready before asking customers to move from VMS ?  I If the applications on NT start to have more power and more of the modernyI features whereas the ones on VMS start to lag, then customers will have aaK tendency to move away from VMS. Look at the Oracle applications.  If OracledE has truly stopped updating its application suite on VMS and will onlyc updateG the database engine, then VMS customers that used the application suitee will migrate to another platform.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:31:52 -0700i+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> ) Subject: Re: My final take on the subjectt( Message-ID: <3B55B9F8.A922DA58@mmaz.com>   Patrick Young wrote:  E > They have their work cut out for them and wasting any more of theirw > time on thisG > topic is not doing OpenVMS any favours. _Clearly_ they have been toldeA > to DO THE PORT!. _Clearly_ Compaq are paying for them to do so.a  D Yes, but how many projects have been started and terminated prior toE entering the market.  This is a major confidence shaker for VMS and I H suspect Tru64 as well.  To 'sell' upgrade paths and long term strategiesI to management just to have them washed aside indicates to management thatrC either the supplier is a bunch of Bozo's or that I'm not making the E correct decisions because I could not see this change coming down the  road.6  D In my UK office a vendor initiated a forced upgrade and migration toJ another one of their products last year.  After taking 4 months to migrateJ last summer, I just received another notice from them that their migrationG solution for last year is now going End-of-Life this summer and that wepJ must migrate again.  I can tell you that they are not seeing another pennyE from us, not today, not ever and that when we migrate off the current.1 platform, we will never use their products again.y  A Compaq is quickly sliding into this same situation with hardware,r software, and services...i   Barryt     --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOc  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028i   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:43:50 +0000 (UTC)t' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) ) Subject: Re: My final take on the subjectd+ Message-ID: <9j4hsm$rfc$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   \ In article <3B55B0CB.AF39A560@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Patrick Young wrote:uD >> OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down theH >> track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then IG >> will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single Compaql >> product again.d >g  - (Lots of big IFs about Compaq and NT cut out)h      >SJ >If the applications on NT start to have more power and more of the modernJ >features whereas the ones on VMS start to lag, then customers will have a! >tendency to move away from VMS. n >s, >Look at the Oracle applications.  If OracleM >has truly stopped updating its application suite on VMS and will only updateeM >the database engine, then VMS customers that used the application suite wills >migrate to another platform.f  N Most will move to SUN - who are currently Oracle's prime development platform.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:24:38 -0700h' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>g" Subject: Re: No chance for OpenVMS+ Message-ID: <3B55AA36.123E1878@caltech.edu>t   JF Mezei wrote:    > Rudolf Wingert wrote:lI > > today I red, that Andrew Butler of the Gardner Group gives OpenVMS nos > > chance to be alive.  >e  J Unfortunately I agree with him - and Tru64 is even less likely to survive.     >aP > Isn't it frustrating when the folks you argued were wrong all these years turn > out to be correct after all ?4 >n  M It was a self fulfilling prophecy.  The management (sic) that ran Digital and1Q Compaq didn't have either the brains or the balls to compete,.and to make mattersSN worse, apparently believed everything that Gartner and the like wrote as well.M But that may be a circular argument, as Gartner and others may have correctly Q assessed the deficiencies in corporate management but presented their predictions > of the ultimate consequences of these failings in other terms.   <snip>  P > Actions speak louder than words. Compaq may have bribed its key customers, butO > the effect will be temporary and I think that those customers will eventually N > come to the same complusion as Gartner unless Compaq takes some real actions > to push VMS.  P The thing that most amazes me about Compaq management is that they seem to think thatQ by screwing their customer base over and over that they'll somehow convince theses same folks to migratekP to Q hardware running Windows XP.   But it makes no sense on any level for these customers to do so.6P If the vendor has failed to provide product, and in my opinion, outright lied toP us, why would we go back for more, especially once the sole reason for remaining, with them (VMS technology) is off the table?  K Speaking as an empathically ex-customer of the Q I have no plans to ever dopO business with Compaq again.  My last VMS machine is gone, replaced by a SolarismQ machine.   What I've given up in OS security I've gained back 10 fold in having an7 vendor who isn't hell bent on making my life miserable.n   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu  T ************************************************************************************   *u
 RIH Compaq *aT ************************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 06:24:59 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)mK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)i3 Message-ID: <mN0wpjYKxfho@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  s In article <pl857.223$g84.42627@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:   L > Of course, I'm assuming that IA64 platforms will continue using local timeM > for the battery backed up watch for compatibility "Intel" PCs.  (Every good M > bios allows you to set the bb_watch time and you set it to local time, just  > like on Alpha.)m  D Those Intel PCs must be quite advanced, to be able to tell whether IB am setting the clock to local time or GMT.  But the three Alphas I/ have fail to complain when I set _them_ to GMT.c  B It is a common fallacy of computer operation for someone to assume@ that operations everywhere run the same way as the operations in) which they have personally been involved.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:24:11 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>oK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)o; Message-ID: <9me57.16823$oh4.1817057@news20.bellglobal.com>o  9 "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote in messagem< news:1D857.137$vj4.26320@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... >m8 > "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in message# > news:3B54B0F3.28BE9724@iee.org...y8 > > I'm fairly sure that the DECnet/OSI code (and before4 > > that the DTSS code and before that the LES code)3 > > is where all the current UTC stuff (formats andi > > so on) comes from. >iG > Its in VMS and has been for years.  You can always use $GETUTC and inW fact,r0 > the C RTL etc were changed to use it long ago. >eD What I (and hopefully the whole VMS community) was looking for was aH fundamental change to the whole OS to make the concept of time more likeJ UNIX (which did a few things right). In UNIX, the internal clock is almostI always UTC and is used for everything including "file stamps" and crontabcK (batch) jobs. Every app that references time uses rules associated with the  "requesting user's process".  , This would have the following effect in VMS:  K 1. Two people from different time zones who log into a remote machine would F see different times for everything. (if their local symbols are set to different time zones).  H 2. Files transferred by network from computer "A" in Austin would retain9 their UTC timestamps when sent to computer "B" in Boston.n  K 3. Computers wouldn't change their internal clocks when shifting in and outvJ of daylight-saving time, just the local user's view of time. (system batchJ jobs would require a flag so that VMS would know if a system job should beL tied directly to UTC (automated financial transaction between banks etc.) or' local time (traffic light control etc.)e  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,- Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:13:32 -0300-) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.broK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)IL Message-ID: <OF9DA12BF0.BB685B87-ON03256A8D.003D8D1C@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  H I cant admit the prices of Compaq Intel boxes here in Brazil. Almost theK price of a small apartment. .... to become obsolete in two/three years ....y  6 It is time to have the "Open Hardware"  - Really ! ! !   Regardsv   FC        J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) em 18/07/2001 08:24:59  E Favor responder a Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh      K Assunto: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)     I In article <pl857.223$g84.42627@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp"T) <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:d  G > Of course, I'm assuming that IA64 platforms will continue using local  timeH > for the battery backed up watch for compatibility "Intel" PCs.  (Every goodH > bios allows you to set the bb_watch time and you set it to local time, just > like on Alpha.)q  D Those Intel PCs must be quite advanced, to be able to tell whether IB am setting the clock to local time or GMT.  But the three Alphas I/ have fail to complain when I set _them_ to GMT.e  B It is a common fallacy of computer operation for someone to assume@ that operations everywhere run the same way as the operations in) which they have personally been involved.d   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 09:31:49 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)vK Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)S3 Message-ID: <fdKlDHxeTA0J@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  g In article <9me57.16823$oh4.1817057@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:  > ; > "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote in messagee> > news:1D857.137$vj4.26320@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... >>9 >> "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in messagea$ >> news:3B54B0F3.28BE9724@iee.org...9 >> > I'm fairly sure that the DECnet/OSI code (and beforer5 >> > that the DTSS code and before that the LES code)e4 >> > is where all the current UTC stuff (formats and >> > so on) comes from.  >>H >> Its in VMS and has been for years.  You can always use $GETUTC and in > fact, 1 >> the C RTL etc were changed to use it long ago.p >>F > What I (and hopefully the whole VMS community) was looking for was aJ > fundamental change to the whole OS to make the concept of time more likeL > UNIX (which did a few things right). In UNIX, the internal clock is almostK > always UTC and is used for everything including "file stamps" and crontabr  C That capability has been in VMS since 1978.  Set your clock to GMT.g  M > (batch) jobs. Every app that references time uses rules associated with the  > "requesting user's process".  @ That part is currently only well-supported for the C programming	 language.   B Yes, per-process timezone offsets are sorely needed in VMS, but it@ has nothing to do with basic timekeeping (and certainly not with/ the degree of precision implied in GMT vs UTC).n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:22:58 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) K Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)r0 Message-ID: <009FF315.39BDD749@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <9me57.16823$oh4.1817057@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:m > : >"mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote in message= >news:1D857.137$vj4.26320@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...s >>9 >> "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in message $ >> news:3B54B0F3.28BE9724@iee.org...9 >> > I'm fairly sure that the DECnet/OSI code (and beforen5 >> > that the DTSS code and before that the LES code),4 >> > is where all the current UTC stuff (formats and >> > so on) comes from.a >>H >> Its in VMS and has been for years.  You can always use $GETUTC and in >fact,1 >> the C RTL etc were changed to use it long ago.M >>E >What I (and hopefully the whole VMS community) was looking for was aeI >fundamental change to the whole OS to make the concept of time more likeaK >UNIX (which did a few things right). In UNIX, the internal clock is almostsJ >always UTC and is used for everything including "file stamps" and crontabL >(batch) jobs. Every app that references time uses rules associated with the >"requesting user's process".m  I I started this thread because I was concerned about "fundamental changes"sI to VMS that are required to port it to this IPF architecture.  There are,aI and will likely continue to be, architecture design flaw/limitations thatU* will affect VMS as we know it and love it.  I There are kernel differences between VAX and Alpha implementations of VMShJ but they are not so dramatic as to affect the underpinnings of the initialL design.  For example, the memory protections issues that I've pointed out.  J VAX had certain memory protections.  On Alpha, all of these could be real-H ized with the R:KESU/W:KESU bit in the PTE.  Not so with the IPF!  ThereH are bound to be real hurdles with this port that I am sure the engineersG will overcome but the question in my mind is still, will the hurdles ben% surmounted or moved out of the way?  u  J I don't care if "user" mode code continues to run undaunted.  I care about" seeing VMS being retained as VMS.      --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            sJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:47:53 -0400t. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>  Subject: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?+ Message-ID: <9j4419$gn0$1@bob.news.rcn.net>h  I I agree with Robert; a month or more ago I received a 'de-support' notice-K from Oracle about where they were going in the future; of course I threw it-J out just yesterday, but in essence it said that after Oracle 9i there wereH only about 8 or 9 major platforms that were going to be supported; amongJ them were TRU64, OpenVMS, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Linux (Intel only [!!]) andI some others that I have forgetten.  Dropped were more obscure things liket NCR.  L If I read it correctly, the OpenVMS *database* products would continue to beL updated/supported, but the 'tools' (like Oracle Financials, Developer, etc.)
 would NOT.  E Funny how it read sort of like the Compaq-Intel announcement, in thata: somehow by doing this they were 'creating customer value'.   Ken Randell:  ) <yyyc186@mindspring.com> wrote in messagee5 news:3b551b33$1$lllp186$mr2ice@nntp.mindspring.com... K > According to my sources at Boeing, the current rev of Oracle database and J > "tools" is the final rev they will ever release under VMS.  Any truth toL > this?  If so, good riddance to a really sh*tty database product that never3 > could get anything above marketing fraud correct!a >  > Roland >l > --= > -----------------------------------------------------------t > yyyc186@mindspring.com= > -----------------------------------------------------------h >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:56:02 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brn  Subject: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?L Message-ID: <OF6B569CBF.9D334ED6-ON03256A8D.004C77BA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  9 Oracle is Sun's closest friend.... dont forget this ! ! !r       RegardsV     FC        ? "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com> em 18/07/2001 10:47:53y  : Favor responder a "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma        Assunto: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?    I I agree with Robert; a month or more ago I received a 'de-support' noticeiK from Oracle about where they were going in the future; of course I threw itcJ out just yesterday, but in essence it said that after Oracle 9i there wereH only about 8 or 9 major platforms that were going to be supported; amongJ them were TRU64, OpenVMS, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Linux (Intel only [!!]) andI some others that I have forgetten.  Dropped were more obscure things like  NCR.  I If I read it correctly, the OpenVMS *database* products would continue tot beF updated/supported, but the 'tools' (like Oracle Financials, Developer, etc.)a
 would NOT.  E Funny how it read sort of like the Compaq-Intel announcement, in thata: somehow by doing this they were 'creating customer value'.   Ken Randelln  ) <yyyc186@mindspring.com> wrote in messagel5 news:3b551b33$1$lllp186$mr2ice@nntp.mindspring.com...oK > According to my sources at Boeing, the current rev of Oracle database andhJ > "tools" is the final rev they will ever release under VMS.  Any truth toF > this?  If so, good riddance to a really sh*tty database product that neverK3 > could get anything above marketing fraud correct!t >  > Roland >n > --= > -----------------------------------------------------------t > yyyc186@mindspring.com= > -----------------------------------------------------------  >r   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 11:35:17 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)r  Subject: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?* Message-ID: <9j4abl$p0v$1@lisa.gemair.com>  L In article <OF6B569CBF.9D334ED6-ON03256A8D.004C77BA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,-  <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote:t: >Oracle is Sun's closest friend.... dont forget this ! ! ! >   > Really?  That must be why Sun publishes all of their top E10K  benchmarks using Sybase.   >A >4 >Regards >  >- >FC- >- >[snip]-   -Jordan Henderson, jordan@grenapple.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:27:13 -0300a) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br$  Subject: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?L Message-ID: <OFABDE9643.81562DEA-ON03256A8D.005A2820@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Really ?  J Well.... specialized databases use to be better than "Fair Databases" like Oracle.t  # a) Oracle (argh) RDB under OpenVMS;TF b) Sybase under Solaris (Sybase was developed under Solaris, right ?); c) DB2 under AIX.y   Etc ...C   Regardsp   FC        @ jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) em 18/07/2001 12:35:17  ; Favor responder a jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn        Assunto: Re: Oracle dead on VMS?    
 In articleA <OF6B569CBF.9D334ED6-ON03256A8D.004C77BA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,s-  <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote:p: >Oracle is Sun's closest friend.... dont forget this ! ! ! >i  = Really?  That must be why Sun publishes all of their top E10Kg benchmarks using Sybase.   >o >w >Regards >U >  >FCr >u >[snip]r   -Jordan Hendersone jordan@grenapple.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:26:59 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1807010226590001@user-2ive6dr.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <yo_47.863$rc5.60601@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:    J > >I've never heard of that one.  How about "A Very Peculiar Practice"?  IE > >think you would appreciate the immortal phrase "rinky dinky little 
 > >computer".t > >t >  >  > Never heard of that one.    E It's about the medical clinic at a small, strange college.  Graduallys taken over by evil Americans...   4 > The Reginald Perrin one was about a guy who workedA > at an ice cream factory, who decides that he can't take it, and J > "disappears".  Eventually, he ends up creating something called a "grot"I > shop - a store that carries only completely useless items, that becomesrK > wildly popular.  I was hooked from the moment he see's a hippo every time ! > his mother-in-law is mentioned.q  1 Hmm.  I think you're skating on thing ice here...     i8 > Some of my favorite British shows, seen by way of PBS- > < > Monty Python (of course, just got the complete 14 DVD set)M > A bit of Fry and Lawrie (Stephen Fry and Hugh Lawrie are really funny guys)s6 > Dr. Who - excluding the awful first and last Doctors3 > The Fall (and subsequent Rise) of Reginald Perrint
 > Black Addero > The Prisoner  G Is that the one with the big beach ball as one of the main characters? h5 The end of the series didn't make any sense at all...d  8 > To the Manor Born (well, it was cute the *first* time)  I This list can't be complete without Fawlty Towers.  But when PBS runs theiF whole set back-to-back, the theme music will destroy your brain by the end.   -- s Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:44:58 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aup Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.5 Message-ID: <01K636MZKSUQ002UNQ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>'   Robert Deininger wrote:I  J >This list can't be complete without Fawlty Towers.  But when PBS runs theG >whole set back-to-back, the theme music will destroy your brain by the* >end.*  E Did the series "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minister" ever get to US?   N UK type of politics.  Written by (Sir) Tony Jay who was in co-horts with John P Cleese in those business learning type videos.  [When I was young and first had 1 kids, Tony's mother was my landlady for a while.]   P Au has turned out a very good police series called Water Rats.  UK has a series Q which has longevity also in .au called The Bill -- British coppers.  It has been lL going since at least 1990 in UK.  A spin-off series has just come to .au -- 	 Burnside.n  R And there are so many others.  George and Mildred?  A follow up to the thing that N was mentioned in another OT thread as an American copy -- Three's Company (?).   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:51:17 -0400e8 From: "Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who./ Message-ID: <tlb88pkduhf50a@news.supernews.com>   F That Yes Minister thing - similar concept might be "Spin City" - but aG comedy based on The White House .... not politically correct in the PSAe (Puritan States of America)m   Davidt    2 <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message/ news:01K636MZKSUQ002UNQ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au...e > Robert Deininger wrote:0 > L > >This list can't be complete without Fawlty Towers.  But when PBS runs theI > >whole set back-to-back, the theme music will destroy your brain by the1 > >end.2 >eG > Did the series "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minister" ever get to US?g > J > UK type of politics.  Written by (Sir) Tony Jay who was in co-horts with JohnG > Cleese in those business learning type videos.  [When I was young andg	 first had'3 > kids, Tony's mother was my landlady for a while.]  >hJ > Au has turned out a very good police series called Water Rats.  UK has a seriesI > which has longevity also in .au called The Bill -- British coppers.  It  has beenF > going since at least 1990 in UK.  A spin-off series has just come to .au -- > Burnside.e >hH > And there are so many others.  George and Mildred?  A follow up to the
 thing thatK > was mentioned in another OT thread as an American copy -- Three's Company  (?). >g > Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:02:17 -0400f2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1807011202170001@user-2ive7i8.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <01K636MZKSUQ002UNQ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,t& paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:    G > Did the series "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minister" ever get to US?o  J Yes, I've seen both of those.  They didn't seem to be over-used, like "Are You Being Served" was/is.i   -- i Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:45:38 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.2 Message-ID: <L2j57.925$rc5.64014@news.cpqcorp.net>  K John Laird wrote in message <6qh9lt0j0g8aa56s8k5gh177387icc6ovb@4ax.com>...e >eD >No "Fawlty Towers" ?  Perhaps along with Blackadder, one of the few@ >British creations to take script-writing to the highest levels. >p    L You know, FT had it's moments, but all-in-all, I wouldn't stay home to watchI reruns of it.  On the other hand, if they put on a Blackadder marathon, IV  probably would take the day off.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:47:12 -0400D5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.2 Message-ID: <c4j57.926$rc5.64008@news.cpqcorp.net>  0 paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote in message, <01K636MZKSUQ002UNQ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>... >!F >Did the series "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minister" ever get to US? >a    3 Yes, but I'm afraid it doesn't translate that well.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:48:12 -0400.5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who.2 Message-ID: <85j57.927$rc5.64004@news.cpqcorp.net>  % Robert Deininger wrote in message ...a6 >In article <01K636MZKSUQ002UNQ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,' >paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:u >s > H >> Did the series "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minister" ever get to US? >.K >Yes, I've seen both of those.  They didn't seem to be over-used, like "Arel >You Being Served" was/is. >h    - Or worse, that damned Keeping Up Appearances.b   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 16:57:48 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who., Message-ID: <9j4f6c$1ed7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <rdeininger-1807010226590001@user-2ive6dr.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:- |> - |> - |> > The Prisoner  |>  J |> Is that the one with the big beach ball as one of the main characters? 8 |> The end of the series didn't make any sense at all...  C It's been a long time since I have seen any of them.  Did the storya< actually end??  I thought, like most shows, it just ran out.   |> .L |> This list can't be complete without Fawlty Towers.  But when PBS runs theI |> whole set back-to-back, the theme music will destroy your brain by the1 |> end..  . What about "Dad's Army"?? Or "The Good Life"??   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:08:56 +0000T  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: OT: Dr Who./ Message-ID: <00256A8D.0063B502.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    J Yes, it did end. Episode 17. It's enjoyed a rerun on the SciFi channel [UK version] very recently.l  L Surprised for this sort of newsgroup that no mention has been made of any of Gerry Anderson's stuff.    Steve S         E bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) on 07/18/2001 04:57:48 PMe    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)rO From:      bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), 18 July 2001, 4:57 p.m.p   Re: OT: Dr Who.s        L In article <rdeininger-1807010226590001@user-2ive6dr.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:T |> |> |> > The Prisoner- |>I |> Is that the one with the big beach ball as one of the main characters?H8 |> The end of the series didn't make any sense at all...  C It's been a long time since I have seen any of them.  Did the storyD< actually end??  I thought, like most shows, it just ran out.   |>L |> This list can't be complete without Fawlty Towers.  But when PBS runs theI |> whole set back-to-back, the theme music will destroy your brain by the5 |> end..  . What about "Dad's Army"?? Or "The Good Life"??   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:50:30 -0700y+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>c! Subject: Patents (was: Alpha ...)o- Message-ID: <9j447q$sv5$1@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net>t  5 "Sander Vesik" <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote ...t8 > In comp.arch Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote:I > > I think you miss the purpose of a patent.  A patent rewards the FIRSTsL > > ONE who can devise or improve something with (presumably) the protection& > > to realize FINANCIAL gain from it. >e. > Wrong. US patents aren't anything like that.  B Right. In fact, U.S. patents only give you the right to stop other9 people from using your innovation.  They don't confer thetA right for you to actually use it.  Sounds strange ? I'll explain:o  4 Let's say Ed invented the vacuum-filled incandescent4 electric lamp and patents it. Ed can now make vacuum< filled electric lamps (assuming no other patents interfere), and forbid Bob from doing so.m  0 Now, let's say Bob discovers that electric lamps1 work better if filled with inert gas.  He patents 3 that, and can now prevent Ed from making gas-fillede7 incandescent electric lamps.  However, Ed's patents are 5 necessary to make _any_ kind of incandescent electric / lamp, so Bob can't make vacuum- *or* gas-filledr incandescent electric lamps.  7 Now, if Ed wants to make gas-filled lamps badly enough,t> he'll go to Bob and negotiate for the rights to the gas-filled6 lamp patent.  Maybe Ed will just pay Bob, or maybe Bob; and Ed will grant each other the rights to use each other'sm7 patents (or some subset thereof): that latter is called( "cross-licensing".  4 So anyway, this shows that a patent doesn't give you: the right to do something, only the right to forbid others	 to do it.e --3 Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc@primenet.com-. Vanity Web Page http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:30:16 GMTl. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>+ Subject: Re: Penance for Compaq's VMS sins?oB Message-ID: <Y1a57.197$Ef6.22542@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:AUX47.828$rc5.60871@news.cpqcorp.net...J > We have actually tried real hard, and complicated our lives considerablyI > trying to provide new hardware and some features on prior versions.  At F > times, we've had to make 4 or 5 versions of a patch, or new hardware supportnL > for the various streams of VMS out there, from V7.1-2, to V7.2-1, to V7.3.  L phaahh... That's nothing; even when dropping support for hardware and stuff,I unix supports patching 8-10 versions of unix.  And there are probably 3-5e times as many patches.  3 Its "the hurrier go the behinder I get" syndrome...l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:30:57 +01005% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c+ Subject: Re: Penance for Compaq's VMS sins?t8 Message-ID: <2hlaltou7vbav3pue388v81rgotue15gi5@4ax.com>  2 On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:10:20 -0400, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote:    >- Give us back DSN 1.2C  C Just to point this out again as some customers seems to have misseda this in the flurry of news:-= DSN IS GOING AWAY COMPLETELY.  NO MORE DSN ANY VERSION FOLKS,y? REPLACEMENT INVOLVES AN NT BOX FRONT-ENDING YOUR VMS SYSTEM AND-  COMMUNICATING OVER THE INTERNET.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:14:50 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>6 Subject: Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...)J Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107181910500.12679-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  ) On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Warren Spencer wrote:l  4 >+duane.sand@mindspring.com (Duane Sand) wrote [...] >+>"Bob Koehler" replied:eM >+>> Not quite.  While many processors support the 4 modes VMS requires, UNIXR< >+>> requires only 2, and some processors still have only 2. >+>o? >+>IA-64 supports 4 levels; hopefully they will fit VMS's needsw >+>well enough.f >+ >+IIRC, so does IA-32.  9 ..but unfortunatelly *not* in paging mode (means: part ofe= memory mapping scheme where does paging allows only 2 mode) !n  . BTW: thanks for the link (send by Duane Sand).    Regards - Gotfryd   -- (E =====================================================================mF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEo. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 10:48:18 GMT- From: "Phil Tregoning" <ptregoni@esoc.esa.de>lJ Subject: Re: Possibly a dumb question on TCPIP settings for 2 IP AddressesA Message-ID: <01c10f74$a9887580$4b53b083@ptregoni.dev.esoc.esa.de>o  7 Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in article  <3B54B7E0.56664912@gmx.ch>...i > Andy Proctor wrote:M   , [about a system with two network interfaces]  H > > Will the system be able to know which interface to use for a certain" > > address - done by the masking? > H > again yes, but not via the masking, via the configuration database, in  > where the IP address is a key. >   ; IP uses the routing table to decide which interface to use.-9 The default entries in the routing table are derived from0= the network masks, so in a sense it is "done by the masking".:  0 Imagine you configure your interfaces like this:  (   Interface     Address     Network Mask  5   WE0           1.2.3.4     255.255.0.0 (16 bit mask)_7   WE1           5.6.7.8     255.255.255.0 (24 bit mask)c  ; Also imagine the default gateway (for addresses that are onu( neither of these networks) is 1.2.3.250.  9 You should then have a routing table that looks somethingF
 like this:   $ TCPIP SHOW ROUTE    Type  Route              Gateway  " AN    0.0.0.0            1.2.3.250" AH    127.0.0.1          127.0.0.1. AN    1.2.0.0/16         1.2.3.4    (i.e. WE0). AN    5.6.7.0/24         5.6.7.8    (i.e. WE1)  7 When trying to decide which interface to use, IP parsesl9 this table three times (or sorts it, and parses it once):n  6   1) First look for a host entry (type H) that exactly%      matches the destination address.   3   2) Then look for a network entry (type N) that isu6      the same subnet as the destination address is on.  4   3) Then look for a default network entry (0.0.0.0)  : Once a match has been found, IP uses the gateway to decide what to do with the packet:b  =   A) If the gateway is 127.0.0.1 it uses an internal loopbacke  ;   B) If the gateway is the IP address of a local interface,b:      it assumes that the destination is directly connected8      to that interface. If necessary, it uses ARP to get7      the Ethernet address of the destination, and sendsp&      the packet out of that interface.  9   C) If the gateway is neither of the above, it means thee>      destination is not directly connected, and the gateway isA      the address of a router. It repeats the whole process again, B      this time for the router's address, to decide which interface"      to use to talk to the router.  @ So for a packet destined for address 5.6.7.7 the lookup would go6 like this (missing out checks for loopback addresses):  (   1) Is there a host entry for 5.6.7.7 ?      No.  0   2) Is the a matching network entry for 5.6.7.70      Yes. 5.6.7.0 / 24 has a gateway of 5.6.7.8   9   B) Is the gateway for this entry the address of a local       interface?m      Yes. 5.6.7.8 is WE18      Use ARP to get the Ethernet address of 5.6.7.7, and       send the packet out of WE1.  = For a packet destined for address 5.5.5.5 the lookup would gos
 like this:  (   1) Is there a host entry for 5.5.5.5 ?      No.  2   2) Is there a matching network entry for 5.5.5.5      No.     3) Is there a default route?,      Yes. 0.0.0.0 has a gateway of 1.2.3.250  9   B) Is the gateway for this entry the address of a localr      interface?n      No.  -   C) 1.2.3.250 is therefore a router address.   *   1) Is there a host entry for 1.2.3.250 ?      Noo  6   2) Is there a matching network entry for 1.2.3.250 ?/      Yes. 1.2.0.0 / 16 has a gateway of 1.2.3.4n  9   B) Is the gateway for this entry the address of a locall      interface?i      Yes. 1.2.3.4 is WE0:      Use ARP to get the Ethernet address of 1.2.3.250, and       send the packet out of WE0.  < You can manually configure routes, but in most cases that is: not necessary, as the routes automatically determined from> configured IP addresses and network masks are usually correct.  < If I've got any of this wrong, someone please let me know :)  i Phil T   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:04:11 +0200-, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>J Subject: Re: Possibly a dumb question on TCPIP settings for 2 IP Addresses% Message-ID: <3B55B37A.9D9358C@gmx.ch>a   Phil Tregoning wrote:h > = > IP uses the routing table to decide which interface to use.t; > The default entries in the routing table are derived fromw? > the network masks, so in a sense it is "done by the masking".t ../..s  H Many thanks, but I actually learned to configure routes manually, as youH explained (well) so this is why my answer was not correct. Thank you for the detailed explanation.n   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:41:56 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: RA7x series disksL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1807010241560001@user-2ive6dr.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <GGnEt9.GHu@spcuna.spc.edu>, Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> wrote:  ; >   EK-ORA7X-SM, "RA70 SERVICE MAN.", $80, 3 day lead time..I >   EK-ORA90-PS, "RA90 POCKET SERVICE GUIDE", $42, unspecified lead time. C >   EK-ORA90-SV, "RA90 SERVICE GUIDE", $130, unspecified lead time.nC >   EK-OTA79-SV, "TA79 SERVICE MANUAL", $84, unspecified lead time.-K >   EK-OTA79-TM, "TA79;TA78;TU78;TECH MANUAL", $126, unspecified lead time.   	 Hi Terry,C  5 What crystal ball do you use to find stuff like this?e  3 Does your crystal ball reveal anything about these:Y  3 EKSNDPRSV,   "DEC 3000 AXP Model 400/400S Service"                 Information"  4 EKFLSPCSV,   "DEC 3000 Models 600/600S AXP and 800.                 /800S AXP Service Information"  4 EKFLSPCAD,    "DEC 3000 Models 700 AXP and 900 AXP5                  Service/Update Information Addendum"g  J ... and any service documentation for the KZTSA module?  I can't even find0 a title or part number, if such a manual exists.   Thanks.l   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:25:35 GMTt( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> Subject: Re: RA7x series disks& Message-ID: <GGnu2n.3t@spcuna.spc.edu>  4 Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> writes:7 > What crystal ball do you use to find stuff like this?s  H   Digital Business Link (soon to go away and not be replaced by anythingG for customers). But you need to know how the part number game is played  to determine the part numbers.  5 > Does your crystal ball reveal anything about these:- > 5 > EK-SNDPR-SV,   "DEC 3000 AXP Model 400/400S Service  >                 Information"  H   BTW, your hypens are coming out as illegal multinational characters...  =   EK-SNDPR-SV, "DEC 3000 MODEL 400 SERV. INFO", $130, 3 days.-  "   You might also be interested in:  I   EK-SNDPR-TM, "DEC 3000-400(S) TECH MANUAL", $85, unspecified lead time.R    6 > EK-FLSPC-SV,   "DEC 3000 Models 600/600S AXP and 8000 >                 /800S AXP Service Information"  9   EK-FLSPC-SV, "DEC 3000-600/800 SERV GDE", $130, 3 days.g  6 > EK-FLSPC-AD,    "DEC 3000 Models 700 AXP and 900 AXP7 >                  Service/Update Information Addendum"b  G   EK-FLSPC-AD, "DEC 3700; 3900 SERVICE AD", $45, unspecified lead time.d  L > ... and any service documentation for the KZTSA module?  I can't even find2 > a title or part number, if such a manual exists.  I   EK-KZTSA-UG, "KZTSA SCSI STORE ADAPT I/UG", $25, unspecified lead time.:  ?   By the way, the trick to the part number game for manuals is:   G   1) Start with "EK-" - this means it's an Educational Services producteJ      (for historical reasons, the product manuals were originally produced      by that group).  J   2) If the part number for your widget is 4 letters long, preface it with      a letter "O".  H   3) Take the part number and add it to the end of what you have so far,      then add a dash.h  L   4) For a service manual, try SV or SG. For a pocket service guide, use PS.K      For a technical manual, TM. For a user's guide, UG. For an Illustratedr      Parts Breakdown, use IP.:  4         Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com2         terry@tmk.com             New York, NY USA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:42:34 -0400s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: RA7x series disksL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1807011142340001@user-2ive7i8.dialup.mindspring.com>  P In article <GGnu2n.3t@spcuna.spc.edu>, Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com> wrote:  6 > Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> writes:9 > > What crystal ball do you use to find stuff like this?a > J >   Digital Business Link (soon to go away and not be replaced by anythingI > for customers). But you need to know how the part number game is playedM  > to determine the part numbers.  0 Idiots!  Is the goal to eliminate the customers?  7 > > Does your crystal ball reveal anything about these:r > >e7 > > EK-SNDPR-SV,   "DEC 3000 AXP Model 400/400S Service-  > >                 Information" > J >   BTW, your hypens are coming out as illegal multinational characters...  J Ack!  I don't think I have any control over that.  They always look normal to me..0  ? >   EK-SNDPR-SV, "DEC 3000 MODEL 400 SERV. INFO", $130, 3 days.d > $ >   You might also be interested in: > K >   EK-SNDPR-TM, "DEC 3000-400(S) TECH MANUAL", $85, unspecified lead time.  >  > 8 > > EK-FLSPC-SV,   "DEC 3000 Models 600/600S AXP and 8002 > >                 /800S AXP Service Information" > ; >   EK-FLSPC-SV, "DEC 3000-600/800 SERV GDE", $130, 3 days.h > 8 > > EK-FLSPC-AD,    "DEC 3000 Models 700 AXP and 900 AXP9 > >                  Service/Update Information Addendum"e > I >   EK-FLSPC-AD, "DEC 3700; 3900 SERVICE AD", $45, unspecified lead time.>  F Thanks.  Pretty hefty prices.  These machines can be had for about theG same price as the manuals.  But we're allowed to spend foolishly on ours hobbies, right?n  N > > ... and any service documentation for the KZTSA module?  I can't even find4 > > a title or part number, if such a manual exists. > K >   EK-KZTSA-UG, "KZTSA SCSI STORE ADAPT I/UG", $25, unspecified lead time.    I have this one in PDF format.    mA >   By the way, the trick to the part number game for manuals is:0 > I >   1) Start with "EK-" - this means it's an Educational Services producteL >      (for historical reasons, the product manuals were originally produced >      by that group). > L >   2) If the part number for your widget is 4 letters long, preface it with >      a letter "O". > J >   3) Take the part number and add it to the end of what you have so far, >      then add a dash.e > N >   4) For a service manual, try SV or SG. For a pocket service guide, use PS.M >      For a technical manual, TM. For a user's guide, UG. For an Illustratedp >      Parts Breakdown, use IP.a  I Good information.  Alas, they don't make stuff easy to find even when youe know the part number.(   -- D Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:55:46 GMTc- From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com>y Subject: Re: Remote Console ' Message-ID: <3B557932.1A2E918@home.com>.   Kevin wrote: > M > CA has Polycenter Console Manager, and I'll bet you can find shareware thatc > will do the same thing.w  I 	How does a software package connect to the physical console ports?  Whatc4 would I cable the serial ports of these machines to?  : > "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com> wrote in message$ > news:3B54F50D.8FE3FC63@home.com...J > > Is anyone using any remote console servers for their OpenVMS products?V > > Something that would allow secure connection to the hard console ports of DECHubs, > > GIGAswitches,iP > > AlphaServers, HSZ/HSG controllers, etc.  This would need to be 8- or 16-portF > > and be reachable via TCP/IP connections, but be secure and provide/ > > authentication.  Possibly even support SSH.b > >t > > Rick   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:39:33 GMT " From: Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> Subject: Re: Remote Consoleo: Message-ID: <9sf57.2072$X6.213932@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>   Richard L. Dyson wrote:n   > Kevin wrote: >>  I >> CA has Polycenter Console Manager, and I'll bet you can find shareware  >> that will do the same thing.h > J > How does a software package connect to the physical console ports?  What6 > would I cable the serial ports of these machines to?  J Typically you would cable the console port to a terminal server, and then K use the console manager to connect to the terminal server.  With CA's PCM, kI the software always has the port open and logs every byte that comes out  D the console port.  It also has the ability to let you log on to the F console, and to detect patterns in the input stream to trigger events.  L I'll gladly take Kevin up on his bet that you find shareware to do the same L thing.  The problem, if solved correctly, is a *lot* harder than it looks.  K  One of the problems that most vendors have is maintaining a list of event .H strings (eg, "FATAL BUGCHECK") to trigger actions.  The messages change H from release to release (VMS even changed the case of the strings a few K releases back) and obviously the strings change from device to device that uK you're monitoring.  You could be monitoring disk controllers, VMS systems, cL Unix systems (we monitor all of those), and anything else that has a serial J port.  We even monitor a phone unit that dumps out stats on a serial port.  K CA's product is fairly decent, but they have made absolutely no attempt to iK keep the event strings up to date, and if you phone and ask them about it, 0< they will happily ignore you and continue taking your money.           .../Ed -- r Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:03:11 -0400c- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>1 Subject: Re: Remote Consolev4 Message-ID: <3ri57.263828$Z2.3206338@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  8 "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com> wrote in message! news:3B557932.1A2E918@home.com...e > Kevin wrote: > >4J > > CA has Polycenter Console Manager, and I'll bet you can find shareware that > > will do the same thing.t >7J > How does a software package connect to the physical console ports?  What6 > would I cable the serial ports of these machines to? >   I We have one site that is several hundred kilometres from where I site. OnrK occasion we have to get into the console so we bought AXP 800 machines thateH have the Remote Console feature. We have done is setup a DEC90TL and runJ cables from it to the Remote Console port on the two Alphas as well as the$ HSZ70 controllers used at that site.  I Since we could not set up passwords on each port someone came up with the 	 solution; 2  1 - connect to the server using telnet and logon.$  2 - set yourself to privileged mode+  3 - enable the telnet listener in questionA8  4 - connect to the telnet listener on the port you want+  5 - when done, disable the telnet listenerS         -- Peter WeaverJ Using a WIN NT/WIN 2000 box to manage your VMS systems is like towing your7 mechanic in a 5th wheel motor home behind your Porsche.,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:48:49 +0100,/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>1A Subject: Re: Returning a value from a C program to a DCL variablea7 Message-ID: <009FF308.127E7D1F.13@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>e   > Peter wrote...H > >Has anyone any idea how to return a value from a C program and out to" > >a DCL symbol/variable such as : > >q! > >$ testprogram :== $testprogramt
 > >$ test = 0. > >$ test = testprogram  > >$ sh sym test > >  TEST == "10"' > >$ > >+2 > >where the C program consists of the following : > >t
 > >int main()i > >{ > >   return 10; > >} > : > The return value is stored in the $STATUS variable, i.e. >  > $ r testprogram  > $ sho sym $statusa >   $STATUS == "%X0000000A"  >  > cu,=
 >   Martin  J If you want to pass more than one int back to DCL or don't want the resultD to be treated as a VMS status code, then look up the runtime routineI LIB$SET_SYMBOL to pass arbitrary strings back to arbitraty DCL variables.=   Nigel.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:10:36 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)iA Subject: Re: Returning a value from a C program to a DCL variablei0 Message-ID: <009FF313.7F8A2C7A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  i In article <009FF308.127E7D1F.13@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>, Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes:E >> Peter wrote....I >> >Has anyone any idea how to return a value from a C program and out to]# >> >a DCL symbol/variable such as :o >> >" >> >$ testprogram :== $testprogram >> >$ test = 0 >> >$ test = testprogram >> >$ sh sym testa >> >  TEST == "10" >> >$g >> >3 >> >where the C program consists of the following :  >> > >> >int main() >> >{o >> >   return 10;f >> >}u >>  ; >> The return value is stored in the $STATUS variable, i.e.h >> w >> $ r testprogram >> $ sho sym $status >>   $STATUS == "%X0000000A" >> r >> cu, >>   Martine >iK >If you want to pass more than one int back to DCL or don't want the result E >to be treated as a VMS status code, then look up the runtime routine2J >LIB$SET_SYMBOL to pass arbitrary strings back to arbitraty DCL variables.)                                   ^^^^^^^   2 With this RTL, you cannot define a numeric symbol.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:41:20 -0400s5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> U Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy  VMST2 Message-ID: <I_i57.924$rc5.64008@news.cpqcorp.net>  J A quick check of the source listings seems to indicate that I am.  And theC hot air you blow seems to be the only indication of what you do ;-)t      B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B556C27.7492F0FE@uk.sun.com>... >1 >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:n >>A >> Gee, I thought that Andrew was a Unix Professional Hair Dryer.a >> > 8 >And I thought you were a software developer, I guess we >were both wrong.a >  >n >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:59:52 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVo* Message-ID: <3B556C27.7492F0FE@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > @ > Gee, I thought that Andrew was a Unix Professional Hair Dryer. >   7 And I thought you were a software developer, I guess wee were both wrong. i     Regardsi Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:52:56 +0000n  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com: Subject: SMS on VMS [was RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.]/ Message-ID: <00256A8D.0057414D.00@quegw01.btyp>i  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    N I know from my time there that SEMA sell VMS boxes which do SMS, but ISTR thatJ they also had TANDEM boxes there - whether they were used for SMS or otherI software they provided I don't recall - it WAS a few years ago, certainly 	 pre-1998.   P There is a guy who used to post to COV who still works at SEMA, perhaps he might be able to correct us on this?   Steve So        ? young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) on 07/13/2001 08:33:14 PMo    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) I From:      young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young), 13 July 2001, 8:33 p.m.a    RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.        L In article <OFD65DD502.00A850C3-ON03256A88.005F0CE9@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,+ fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:sA > What worries me more about the porting from Alpha to Itanium isuG > the possbility of non porting of a hundred of softwares .... and ....o >sB > What was the last product lauched/developed for OpenVMS ? When ? >k  A      From what I understand ... and I am sure I will be correctedsD      if I am wrong ... is that Short Message Service (SMS) (Cellular@      Phone messaging) runs on VMS and VMS only.  That was passedE      on to me in May 2000 and may be a bit of hype.  Apparently, very <      popular in Europe and driven one segment of VMS growth.  =      When was it developed?  Probably in the last 5 years ;-)                        Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 20:00:04 +02000 From: William Chesters <williamc_sp@paneris.org>> Subject: Re: SMS on VMS [was RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.]2 Message-ID: <m2ofqit8wr.fsf@beertje.william.bogus>  > > From what I understand ... and I am sure I will be correctedA > if I am wrong ... is that Short Message Service (SMS) (Cellularu= > Phone messaging) runs on VMS and VMS only.  That was passed B > on to me in May 2000 and may be a bit of hype.  Apparently, very9 > popular in Europe and driven one segment of VMS growth.a  > VMS was (is?) widely used in telecoms, and especially GSM, theD standard behind all modern European phones + many others.  Not least> because Ericsson switches all shipp(ed?) with a VAX in overall. control, and they still make most of the gear.  E So to SMS you could probably add every other development in GSM.  ButMH it has been a long time since I worked in that world, so I may be wrong.. That was the last time I even saw VMS, too ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:16:41 +0200u5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>R1 Subject: Re: Sun's take on Compaq's announcement. + Message-ID: <3B5553F9.10B3DB99@TeraPort.de>    cjt & trefoil wrote: > J > I can't help wondering whether those Aussies are having second thoughts. >   .  wouldn't that be "third thoughts" by now? :-)   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >gK > > Why something that is OpenSource.  Isn't that obvious?  UNIX is UNIX isd	 > > UNIX.r > > N > > Hey, maybe they can use them for those supercomputer sales that they can't- > > get through the acceptance tests with ;-)- > >  -- eB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309>7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111k5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759d   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jul 2001 16:30:29 GMT% From: tom gugger <ehutch@norden1.com>d  Subject: SUPRA DBA/ CONTRACT/ MN( Message-ID: <9j4dj5$1ni$8@192.153.35.30>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------99233F357878AA3E32E97E7D* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bita      & --------------99233F357878AA3E32E97E7D! Content-Type: application/msword;   name="SUPRA DBA.doc"e! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base640 Content-Disposition: inline;  filename="SUPRA DBA.doc" 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Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:20:15 GMTA. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64AB Message-ID: <PMa57.285$Ef6.31393@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:rxF47.757$rc5.60092@news.cpqcorp.net...K > Will we lose some customers.  Sadly, we may.  I'm suprised to some degreeAG > about how some people have taken this so personally.  Heck, they toldA  L A lot of people have gone out on a limb to sell VMS at all levels.  Most VMS4 systems are in environments with Windows and/or Sun.  L "Alpha VMS is a safe bet and its reliable and stable and really cheaper thanL the alternatives because we simply build the software once and we never have- to touch it again because VMS is VMS is VMS."A  K Ooops, Compaq just sawed the limb off.  "Obviously we should have gone withA8 Sun, because Sun is commited to protect our investment."  H For a customer to move from Alpha to another platform, they have to have@ 100% of the applications that they need.  If VMS loses 5% of itsG applications, this could translate into far higher losses of customers.A  L Some major customers run with VAX and Alphas because they have software thatK is only available on VAX after all these years.  One of these customers hasAJ increased the number of CI adapters per system to 12 rather than switch toJ Fibre Channel because the VAX only part of the application is so critical.K They are spending $100s of thousands because they can't get the app move toA Alpha.  H Finding resources to rewrite or reengineer the application will be a lotJ easier if the target is Sun or Windows - there are lots of consultants who make a business of this.  8 Its unclear how moving off of Alpha represents progress.  K When is the supposed funding to support porting going to kick in?  How manygH more engineers were laid off this week?  How many will be laid off next?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:11:17 +0100C0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64A* Message-ID: <3B558AF5.E45DAD55@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Bill,A > 9 > re: what Fred stated vs what you think I have stated ..A > I > Hey, you are picking up some of Andrews tricks - like trying to drive aAI > stake between what one person says and another in an attempt to somehowAM > discredit both people. "He said", "you said", "Compaq said" .... hopefully,A8 > this does not become a habit. It can be very annoying. >   - Kerry the only person playing tricks here is A4 you. You may be annoyed but your annoyance has much 5 more do with the fact that you keep being caught out.A  2 I am sure that Bill has no wish to be compared to 1 me any more than I do to him, but since the factsA1 don't support this conclusion I would guess that A0 Bill is sensible enough to realise that you are . simply trying badly to move the argument away 0 from the dissinformation that you have provided / to this group, onto what you may feel is safer A ground.A   RegardsA Andrew HarrisonA Enterprise IT ArchitectA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:37:04 -0400A5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>A- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64A2 Message-ID: <IWi57.923$rc5.63847@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Customers on Alpha should not have anything near the problems of moving fromF the VAX.  First, I would expect that much of the Alpha code *is* stillL around.  And that much of it will *not* have to be changed in any way.  JustG recompiled.  We are also looking at translation technology to run AlphaA- binaries for stuff that just can't get there.A  G Are you seriously telling me that a Sun user has never had to recompileA there software?A  I Nobody yet has suggested a need to re-write or re-engineer user software.A  I Nobody has suggested that you will need to get rid of your VAXes, or yourA Alphas.A  L As far as I know, nobody in VMS was laid off this week, or is being laid offJ next week.  In terms of "funding" for the port, we're still working on the; plan for the port.  Lets not get the cart before the horse.A       mulp wrote in message ...AA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messageA- >news:rxF47.757$rc5.60092@news.cpqcorp.net...AL >> Will we lose some customers.  Sadly, we may.  I'm suprised to some degreeH >> about how some people have taken this so personally.  Heck, they told >AI >A lot of people have gone out on a limb to sell VMS at all levels.  MostA VMSA5 >systems are in environments with Windows and/or Sun.A >AH >"Alpha VMS is a safe bet and its reliable and stable and really cheaper thanH >the alternatives because we simply build the software once and we never have. >to touch it again because VMS is VMS is VMS." >AL >Ooops, Compaq just sawed the limb off.  "Obviously we should have gone with9 >Sun, because Sun is commited to protect our investment."A >AI >For a customer to move from Alpha to another platform, they have to haveAA >100% of the applications that they need.  If VMS loses 5% of itsAH >applications, this could translate into far higher losses of customers. >AH >Some major customers run with VAX and Alphas because they have software thatL >is only available on VAX after all these years.  One of these customers hasK >increased the number of CI adapters per system to 12 rather than switch toAK >Fibre Channel because the VAX only part of the application is so critical.AL >They are spending $100s of thousands because they can't get the app move to >Alpha.A > I >Finding resources to rewrite or reengineer the application will be a lotAK >easier if the target is Sun or Windows - there are lots of consultants whoA >make a business of this.A >A9 >Its unclear how moving off of Alpha represents progress.A >AL >When is the supposed funding to support porting going to kick in?  How manyI >more engineers were laid off this week?  How many will be laid off next?A >A >A   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:37:21 -0400A; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>A- Subject: Re: Terry Shannon Tech Talk on IA-64A$ Message-ID: <3b55bb8b$1@news.si.com>  " >Click on the Alpha Tomorrow Link!  < Can't find an "Alpha Tomorrow" link at www.alphapowered.com. -- AA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comAA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comA= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventA< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:32:22 +0100A0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated* Message-ID: <3B5565B6.98DD6856@uk.sun.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,A > + > Just love the way you ready, fire, aim ..A >  > :-)A > J > >>>Bullshit. Power4 isn't IBM's backup plan if IA-64 doesn't deliver the? > goods and if you want to test this post this on comp.arch.<<<P > # > Now, if you re-read my statement:cK > > In addition, with the exception of MS, each OS provider has a backup orA > alternate 64bit HW plan ..>> > @ > What part of "or alternate 64bit plan" did you not understand? >   8 Kerry your choice of words makes it sound as if all the 7 vendors that have their own architecture and IA-64 haveA9 the IA-64 platform to ensure that they will have a backupC) platform if their own architecture fails.C  8 In the case of IBM this is very far from the truth, IBM 4 have IA-64 because it allows them to address markets6 they might have more difficulty addressing with Power 0 alone. They don't have it as a backup for IA-64.  6 You are applying your own corporate strategy to other 6 vendors which as you should be only to painfully aware
 is a mistake.A+                                            A regardso Andrew HarrisonG Enterprise IT ArchitectA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:46:36 -0400 2 From: "Kent, Philip  JW1811" <kent@jwfc.jfcom.mil>U Subject: VMS declared Cool and Unhackable at DE FCON9 hackers convention i	nLas VegasAH Message-ID: <5B57189920E7D41190B500606D210686011A6AB0@mailsvr.jfcom.mil>   > From: 	Wisniewski, John  A) > Sent:	Wednesday, July 18, 2001 11:08 AMAD > Subject:	What I did on my summer vacation....VMS declared Cool and7 > Unhackable at DEFCON9 hackers convention in Las VegasA >  > F > SATURDAY July 14th, 2001, 2:34am Defcon9 Convention Las Vegas Nevada >  > Location Cyberspace: > Capture the Flag Network -- K > GreenTeam address space 10.255.30.100-125 Hacking Stations 250-255 ServerA > RangeA >  >  > OUR SIDE:A< > Codename: Green team - Computer Servers/BOFH and Hack team >  > Personnel: > D > 16 Operatives of Green Squad were anonymous but all appeared to be3 > professionals from the outside Computer Industry.A >  > Resources:> > AlphaStation 255/233Mhz, 512Mbtyes Memory, OpenVMS v7.2 1h1,C > PointSecure System Detective Software, Cooler of Mountain Dew andAH > Gatorade,MREs, Dual Band Ham radios (for command and control), Laptops
 > (variousH > standard issue),with various tcpip scanning-attack tools, 4 rations of > Orange Jolt (forJ > caffeine), case of Honey/Oat Granola Bars.  Other classified servers and > software.A >  > 
 > THEIR SIDE:AH > Code name: Getto Hackers, Purple Team (red and blue had already merged? > less then 10 hours into the attack) Black and Yellow teams...A >  >  > Personnel:G > 15-25 member teams plus another 200+ crazed independent snipers who'sA9 > alliances shifted between various other Hacking Squads.A >  > Resources:L > Laptops of various standard issue, Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, and a plethora > of scanning and K > attack tools for TCP/IP warfare.  Stimulants and alcohol and a life spentA > socially engineering A! > their way into various systems.A >  >  >  > 2:34am Saturday MorningA3 > 10.255.30.252 -- OpenVMS Alpha Server Green Team.A > C > I had been up since 6:30am  Friday Morning working on our server,AH > monitoring attacks and watching the various attacks performed over the > last 14 hours in theB > CTF (Capture the flag network) since the battle began at 10:00am > yesterday. > J > Me?  Just an VMS grunt and Bastard Operator from Hell (BOFH is sort of aK > title for Server Operators on the Floor here at Defcon).  Me and my groupA > putAI > together a small OpenVMS server to use as an Internet Bunker during theA > CTF game tryingAK > to get points and glory for the coolest and most unhackable server on theA > floor. > F > No, there's no real heirachy within the teams, but we will all coverK > each other's back, stand watch to see no physical access to the equipmentA > is performedL > etc.  Each server has it's own members who tend to their care and feeding. > Most of us areK > here for the first time competing.. None of last year's elite and winnersA > wanted toA- > take on any of our servers so here we sit..A > J > Somehow all the professional server folks in real life gravitated to theG > Green Team and joined forces.  This is proving to be a good thing tooA
 > because theA% > hackers are playing pretty rough...A > I > Servers and the entire team had to compete for points on several levelsA > during the play. > I > First was offering various standard services for the "Floor" to examineA( > and exploit by the other Hacker teams. > F > We offered an Apache web server with a cool top page for everyone toI > enjoy.  Then we created an automated captive tel net session that wouldAA > collect user data (well whatever lies pass for user info;-) andAL > automatically create nonprived user accounts with DCL and script access as
 > well as I > personal webpage serving (via Apache) for the hackers to enjoy and playA > with.A > I > The other team's ideas for services on their boxes were to just turn onA > the port daemon and let D > the other's find it... We had actual webpages/content, interactive# > accounts and a free/open account AH > with no password for DEFCON Games.  We resurrected and vested from VAXH > binaries some of the best Text based VMS games from the mid-80 for the; > hackers to play with if they got tired of running script A > kiddie stuff against us;-) > @ > Some of the old-timers were down right wistful seeing the 1980J > VAXtrek,Doomsday 2000, Moria 4.81, Battlestar, Dungeon, Hack, Rogue, andK > ZK after all these years.  Thanks to the games many of the hackers thoughAK > we were running on a VAX!  BOFH will take subterfuge from where ever theyA
 > can get it A > on the floor of CTF:-) > F > Anyways, Server Points were allocated for real-services, time up and > available, and being > unhackable...A >  > Unhackable.. > J > It's not without some shame I have to admit that I allowed my groups VMS > server to get hacked and o< > the hackers to score the only points against our server... > K > Oh, it's not like they really hacked their way in .. well let me tell you/ > how it happened...and you  > can decide.../ > C > I had been up since 6:30am  Friday Morning working on our server,/ > monitoring logs and J > watching the various attacks performed over the last 14 hours in the CTF
 > (Capture@ > the flag network) since the battle began at 10:00am yesterday. > L > A few of the other green team BOFH said they would be staying up all night > so I was about to bid F > good night and go up to the room for a few hours of sleep before theJ > morning shift.  My team mates would watch the hardware and keep the late% > night hacks from physical access...A > J > So I was about to pack it in and then up comes a fresh young man lookingK > more like a high school kid then a gothic, caffeine frenzied, hacker...HeA9 > began to ask some questions about OpenVMS and we began A > to talk..A > H > Soon it began to feel more like a DECUS encounter in one of the CompaqK > National Events, comparing information and swapping stories then came theAK > innocent request. We created a user account and I began to show the younggF > man how to create files and change directory even creating a foreign
 > symbol for /L > "cd:==set def" to make him feel more at home with the services on OpenVMS.L > Friendly and inquisitive and I was lulled into Usergroup mode talking with > a peer about VMS stuff...A > I > "Let me show you my telnet scanner" the youth beamed as he plugged intog( > the server hub (my mistake number one) > J > "Go ahead and log in, I'll show you how I can capture the whole session" > said the youth.A >  AK > I logged in across Telnet (my mistake number two) and logged in to one ofA > the privileged accounts G > as the young man scammed my password, even showing me the ease of theA
 > capture. > I > "Interesting I noted" (not the least bit tired by my previous 14 hours)/ > but you could H > only compromise an account if you were on the right side of the bridge > /router with the / > telnet session." > K > "Yeah admitted the young hacker... " It would be a pretty lame hack which/ > required physical access." > D > "A pretty lame hack indeed..." I smiled as we continued to talked. > F > I sat down and began to go through my checklist for locking down theJ > server for the night after that and the young hacker returned to his PC. > (IJ > also had made a mental note to change all the priv'd passwords after our > educational exchange./ > I > Before I had time to do anything, the young hacker closed his notebook,j/ > unplugged and placed a note in front of me...A > H > "Check this out..." claimed the youth as his note pointed me to one of
 > many rootedA! > directories on the user disk...A > J > I changed my directory and found he had indeed placed two files one withH > his name and a taunting brag.  I immediately understood the hacker hadD > taken advantage of a tired BOFH, just for his own points... We hadG > switched from friendly exchange to sniping hack attack as soon as theA6 > hacker thought he had enough to accomplish his goal. > J > "Very Nice" I congratulated as I unplugged the network hub from the rest > of the CTF network > L > Then I spoke a bit more formally to the youth  "Now if you'll excuse me.." > L > Feeling a bit disillusioned by the event and I felt a bit more tired while > I set to work K > to recover from the back stabbing...  The sadder thing is that I realized3 > this young hackertL > would do anything, say anything, become anything to accomplish his current	 > goal.  s > L > The young man attempted to engage me further and tried shoulder surfing my > laptop but I waited J > until he was across the rooms before locking down the all the privileged > accounts with new pass lK > words, through a telnet session that was not connected to the rest of then > network... >  > SATURDAY 1:30PM. > J > The Goons (Judges) came up to me in an attempt to ascertain if the young > hacker had indeed "Rooted" i, > our VMS server as he had been claiming.... > H > Rooting a server ment placing your file in the "Root" directory of theI > Operating system you were attacking.  It was worth 100 points if it hadm > been done. > I > I logged in (by this time we were always going through the console porte > for privileged accounts J > instead of the network even after green team put up a  filtering bridge)K > and showed the goon (CTF Judge) the rooted directory on the user disk then7 > eager young hacker had placed his victory signature. o > J > I also showed the the goon that the system disk and all it's directoriesL > were on the other drive which is where we considered the VMS system "ROOT" > to be sys$sysroot:[000000].  > F > The hack signature was nowhere to be found on the system drive and IH > explained the social engineering lesson both I and the hacker had bothJ > learned earlier that morning.  The lameness of the backstabbing hack was > not lost on the goon...  > K > Despite his claim of rooting the "VAX" the young hacker was given only 10hI > points (instead of the full 100) for his social engineering efforts andoJ > admonished by the goons in the scoreboard file to "Learn Something About= > VMS" before claiming to have hacked into this server again.a > F > The green team was ahead 680 points to 390 (the closest team against7 > us)with other teams as low as 90 points by this time.A > I > The scoreboard spoke to the lameness of the attempt on our server but IlL > still felt violated by the encounter as I haven't been violated  by a user > in a very long time. > = > Until I remembered exactly where I was and why I was there.o >  >  > 1:30pm Sunday Afternoont3 > 10.255.30.252 -- OpenVMS Alpha Server Green Team.  >  > K > Saturday, I had returned to the trenches of the CTF as a true BOFH reborn  > hard.y > H > Questions were answered with "I don't know" or "RTFM" (Read The FotranF > Manual) and simple requests for assistance were ignored or rebuffed. > H > Attempts to sit at the Green Team's  table were met with suspicion and% > hostility in ever increasing doses.  > K > Sunday Morning the Green Team had moved it's tables in a U shape with allgK > of our team looking outward across the no-mans land to the merging hackerrH > teams,massing against our few remaining servers for continued attacks. > I > None of our few servers were compromised despite the continual  networkr > attacks and onslaught. > G > During it all we recorded it all, watched the attacks in realtime andsG > tried to make sense or note the occurrences that might take some morek > research to understand.i > L > Then the Goons posted the next to final scores on the scoreboard.  The 5thI > rule change left the Getto Hackers and  the purple team and in the lead 1 > but there was one more entry in the scoreboard.hI > The Goons had deemed the "VAX" Unhackable 30 minutes before the CTF was  > over.i > H > After that posting all traffic and attacks against our VMS server wereI > gone.  I thought something had broke on the network but all the hackerstF > had moved on to other, perhaps more fruitful targets during the last > minutes of the game..  > I > After a brief check of the networks and seeing Green Team's Unix groups  > still being attacked the > reality set in.. > I > For the last half hour of the mighty contest we floated in the eye of anB > DEFCON hurricane, calm and invulnerable to any attack the DEFCONL > toolsmiths had been able to muster against our Internet bunker and enjoyed0 > the calm as we floated across the finish line. >  >  > EPILOG SUNDAY 2:00pm > I > The CTF ended and the hackers and BOFH both returned from cyberspace to F > the filthy hotel ballroom filled with cigarette smoke, jolt bottles,J > strewn ethernet cables, servers and hubs and the sea of laptops that hadJ > been their window on the battles that had been waged over the last three > days.n > K > The Goons announced the Getto Hackers had acquired the most points Purplec > 2nd and Green Team was 3rd. E > We were all invited to the awards ceremony at 3pm in the UberHackor  > ballroom.u > K > At an event like this I'm just a grunt,  and togeather the other two BOFHe > that were part of my group eH > we worked and struggled , helped planned designed and built our system > right.  It was a team effort" > from the start to the very end.  > L > We  took our turns watching, and monitoring, recording, and studying.  OurB > whitepaper for CETS/Encompass in September should have some very! > interesting results after we'veaK > analyzed the log files.  (Which was why we did this in the first place;-). > I > We were lucky to join together with some other professional Admins thatoF > made up the rest of Green Team and together we presented a vision of? > system administration to the hackers they rarely see: admins u > who are ready for them.t > K > You loose some battles but across the long-term, the hacker community canp > be defended againstAK > our excercise in computer security showed that and if they hadn't changedA > the rules 5 times in s% > three days to favor the hackers... A >  > J > There's a quite a bit of camaraderie in foxholes that develop and at the > end of three days. The@ > Green team had developed of respect for one another and a deep% > understanding that that while good -L > tools or great tools help, it's still people who keep systems running  and	 > secure.n > K > The awards for first place was $500 plus some trinkets to the merged team- > of the original GhettoJ > hackers and the Digital Revolution,$100 plus some trinkets to the merged > Purple team (originaloL > red and blue teams) and $100 plus some trinkets to the Original Green team > who had toughed it  E > out with our servers over the last three days without any help from  > merging (or the rules).r > D > But none of us on the Green team were really playing for prizes or
 > position...  > J > During the ceremonies and acceptance speech the Gettohackers acknowledge< > the Green Team's server prowess and pronounced us as Cool. > I > The Head Goon singled out the VMS Server with it's webpage contents anddF > continual service under wave after wave of Hacker attack as Cool and
 > Unhackable.  > F > The entire DEFCON Audience heard the pronouncements about OpenVMS... > Perhaps some might evenp6 > take it to heart if they are sysadmins in real-life. > J > We donated the money Green Team won to the FreeBSD organization, dividedB > up the trinkets to the team, but our group had what we'd wanted. > D > Last year we had a dream that we could take an OpenVMS server, runJ > standard software and services in the most hostile hacker environment in > the world and survive. > K > On July 15th, 2001 at 3:30pm we not only survived...We were declared botho > Cool and Unhackable J > by the DEFCON elite and goons... Our OpenVMS server could take no higher > honor away from this   > contest in Las Vegas.e >  > Mission Accomplished...o > *	   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 13:44:34 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)pY Subject: Re: VMS declared Cool and Unhackable at DE FCON9 hackers convention i	nLas Vegasl3 Message-ID: <AHGn+IOZOc+8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   } In article <5B57189920E7D41190B500606D210686011A6AB0@mailsvr.jfcom.mil>, "Kent, Philip  JW1811" <kent@jwfc.jfcom.mil> writes:1 >> From: 	Wisniewski, John  * >> Sent:	Wednesday, July 18, 2001 11:08 AME >> Subject:	What I did on my summer vacation....VMS declared Cool andn8 >> Unhackable at DEFCON9 hackers convention in Las Vegas  J >> "Let me show you my telnet scanner" the youth beamed as he plugged into) >> the server hub (my mistake number one)  >> nK >> "Go ahead and log in, I'll show you how I can capture the whole session"  >> said the youth. >>  L >> I logged in across Telnet (my mistake number two) and logged in to one of >> the privileged accounts  H >> as the young man scammed my password, even showing me the ease of the >> capture.t  * Showing the problem of reusable passwords.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:10:04 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n/ Subject: VMS in readers letters to Network Newsr8 Message-ID: <nn8bltkonuconv9k4bj8823dcrl6ijkd24@4ax.com>  E One assumes this is total coincidence but in this week's Network News > (UK)  there are two letters responding to a Microsoft PR pieceD "Netviews" (some 'expert's' opinion on a particular subject) articleB in a previous edition. The thrust of the article is that Microsoft@ have done it all now. Everything is wonderful so what do they do next?.  ( Here's a paragraph from the first reply:F The quote "It is difficult to see where the company [Microsoft] can goA from here" seems wrong. It's taken Microsoft ten years to get theiC functionality of Unix or VMS, with a fraction of the reliability or5	 security.t' Ian Simon, Network/System Administrator  Advance VisualCommunications   And the second:uF Perhaps Microsoft could have another look at VMS in where to go next -5 nice clustering, great print queue management, etc...s2 Martin Curry, IS Director, Waterloo Air Management  ' If only Compaq would cut out and keep. o   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:08:45 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>e Subject: Re: VMS on IA64( Message-ID: <3B558A5A.CD72C8D1@ohio.edu>   Duane Sand wrote:    > [snip]  > > Tandem/Nsk has only done static pre-translation; there is noH > translation during execution.  We plan to again use static translationE > for IPF.  I'm unaware of any translation-during-execution for AppleeB > Powermac's M68K emulation, but haven't followed that closely forE > awhile.   (A minor nit; Tandem's and Apple's translators were builtl= > and shipped in parallel with VEST's development, not after. C > VEST and the rest were all modelled after HP's static translatorsc, > shipped and publically described in 1987.)  J The way I have understood the Macintosh 68K --> PowerPC migration was that@ there really was on-the-fly translation of 68K executables.  TheM executable-image format for the PowerPC executables includes a pre-amble that N generates a moderately informative error display when attempted to be run on aI 68K machine, and there is the so-called "fat binary" executable that is aeM single file that includes code for both platforms.  It was my impression thataM the size of the emulation software meant a significant performance payoff for L L2 cache sizes up to a MByte, even when CPU speeds were only slightly fasterI than RAM speeds.  I don't know whether the emulation was bright enough toeK notice system calls and pass them off entirely to native system components. M From a user's perspective, virtually anything that worked on 68K still workedwK on PowerPC Macs.  In fact, I am still doing backups on my G3 using softwareaN that I bought for my Mac SE in 1993 (the company went out of business, but the software still keeps working).  #                                 RDP    --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:57:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e Subject: Re: VMS on IA64+ Message-ID: <3B55B1F2.58E2893@videotron.ca>m   "Richard D. Piccard" wrote:aK > than RAM speeds.  I don't know whether the emulation was bright enough tonM > notice system calls and pass them off entirely to native system components.   K Not only was it bright enough to run system calls natively, but it was alsoKE bright enough to on-the-fly translate some of the system portions andA3 extentions that had not yet been ported to PowerPC.u  L In other words, initially, much of the MACos on PowerPC contained "shareableE images" that were still 68k based and you could have a native PowerPcaP application that made use of system services that were still 68k and vice versa.  K Apple deserves much respect for its transition from 68k to powerpc. In mostoJ cases, you only needed to increase the amount of memory an application was8 allowed to use (since the emulator would eat up memory).   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 06:21:08 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)rO Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Help - Get OpenVMS screen data by...)t3 Message-ID: <$xIMMSZamSRh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <d9857.121$vj4.23824@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:l > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:p7yyhY6QUa7m@eisner.encompasserve.org...tF >> I have found Touch Technologies subscription service to be somewhatG >> erratic.  Not dishonest, just unorganized.  Some grapevine access issD >> required in order to be sure you get the subscription updates.  IC >> can't seem to find the DECUServe "Latest Software" conference onuA >> the web, so I will bring that up for discussion.  Of course, I A >> do not remember ensuring DEC Document V3.3 was in there when I,& >> got it, so I will work on that too. > L > Problem should be solved in 2004, I doubt that Intel will see the logic inH > paying for a port to IA64 and why should TTI update the software for a > retired Alpha platform./  4 Touch currently updates it for VAX as well as Alpha.  ? If you thought about the subject matter rather than filling the = newsgroup with gripes stemming from being laid off, you would C notice that as a text processor, DEC Document is fairly independentg9 of architecture (just recompile) and depends only on VMS.G   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 13:55:52 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) J Subject: Wailing and moaning.... (was: Compaq FUD and lack of information)3 Message-ID: <DOOa5h1K$aFx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   S In article <3B55C696.1E9C611E@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:y > J > It seems clear from recent postings that Sue S, Hoff, Kerry and Fred areE > in the dark as much as we are on this.  I suspect that if they knewnJ > anything of substance there would be subtle hints and guidance from one, > some, or all of them.i  < In the dark about decisions not yet made ?  I would hope so.  < When people ask what DCL lexical function parameters will be< appropriate for detecting IA64, that is just ridiculous.  By< the time anyone gets their hands on IA64 VMS, the proper way' will certainly be in the documentation.   C > The June 25th announcement seemed more like the announcement of adH > hurried wedding than of a supposedly professional company presenting a. > comprehensive view of its future directions.  > They said they will port VMS to IA64.  Any substantive further> discussions in this group have been related to the question of@ "what is VMS", with regard to page protections, VEST capability, etc.  ? What is it that people do not understand about "not yet known".h  I > Mike Capellas's comment (as quoted on the web page) is "The bottom linewF > is: we are creating great customer value. Our move to the Itanium=99C > architecture provides customers and ISVs with the most compellingeG > roadmap to next-generation server technology. Customers get increasedCI > performance, price/performance and application support. This reinforcesuG > our commitment to customer investment protection as well as providinglI > the best path for future growth. We believe Intel's architecture is thebI > best choice for the enterprise, and for our customers this is truly the  > best of both worlds. " > B > I cannot recall ever reading a paragraph with more unsubstantied > assertions than this.e  @ So ?  It is marketing talk.  Why would anyone bother to read it.> The substantive part is they said they are porting VMS to IA64 instead of developing EV8.  I > Come on Mike, give us some information of substance and let us make ouroJ > own judgement of the future of VMS.   Compaq's commitment has been sadlyI > lacking for far too long.  If you think that this has changed then showeJ > us the proof.  Sorry, but you've let us down far too many times; we need > proof not marketing spiel.  D Somewhere out there in the world, a set of stock market analysts areD looking for those marketing words.  If you are not in that category,E skip over those remarks and get to the basics -- they are porting VMSc" to IA64 instead of developing EV8.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:11:42 +0100J- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>n, Subject: Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do?/ Message-ID: <3B5560DE.BA20F188@herald.ox.ac.uk>a  
 Dan wrote:B > I have written things in DCL that would make a your mind boggle.   Why??s  E It drives me up the wall when I see huge chunks of DCL that do thingsaE which really, really ought to be done in a compiled language. DCL is,iD compared to some of the programming languages we now have available, absolutely awful!!  H I firmly believe DCL ought to be kept to a minimum, even if only for theH sake of efficiency. Surely it was only provided to enable batch jobs andD the like to make a few elementary decisions as to which image to runF wherein the real work is done, and to give terminal users something to talk to the beast with?M   -- r http://i.am/getting_marriedo, ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:10:40 +0200s, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>, Subject: Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do?& Message-ID: <3B55B500.A5CBE9A2@gmx.ch>  
 Dan wrote: > ) > Ok so here's the question... what now?   ../..r  < Come to Europe. We are dying looking for DCL experts here toJ document/enhance/replace compiled programs by professional DCL procedures.  0 http://www.parity-eurosoft.co.uk/eng/index.html    D.F (not apparented nor affilated nor whatevered to Parity-Eurosoft in any way whatsoever)e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:30:11 GMTi From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com , Subject: Re: What's a DCL kind of guy to do?8 Message-ID: <b9ebltgpd3ideecihjkd0b5r71i468i5kb@4ax.com>  B On 18 Jul 2001 00:33:36 GMT, jobseekerr@aol.comNoSpam (Dan) wrote:  M >I will unabashedly admit, under cover of an alias, of course, that VMS is myo >"first love" of computers.  >gP >I have written things in DCL that would make a your mind boggle. I wouldn't sayL >I excel at programming on them.. though I have... with system calls and theM >like. I wouldn't say I love being a system manager... because I haven't donehA >that by itself all that much. I've mostly hovered around the Appr0 >Support/Programmer level for most of my career.   You'd probably like Perl;  s- maybe consider work as a serious Perl Hacker?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:25:40 +0200 2 From: "Dr. Otto Titze" <titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de> Subject: Your reply on GSDFULL3 Message-ID: <3B552BE4.33AAF948@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de>a   Hi,v  ! thanks for your contribution. Buta  ' > Also check the CONTIG_GBLPAGES value.e  ; what kind of parameter is it? Obviously no SYSGEN parameter ; (here exists only GBLPAGES, INTTSKAGES and ERLBUFFERPAGES).t" It is also not a SYSMAN parameter.   Regards    Otto --  ,  -------------------------------------------, | Dr. Otto Titze, Kernphysik TUD           |, | Schlossgartenstr. 9, D-64289 Darmstadt   |, | titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de                |, | Tel: +49(6151)16-2916,FAX:16-4321        |,  -------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:02:02 -0400m( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>" Subject: Re: Your reply on GSDFULL+ Message-ID: <3B5596DA.9EB61CEF@bigfoot.com>e  F As far as I know, no such parameter exists (or at least is settable byG the user).  I think what Hoff was referring to is the fact that you cantG use this keyword as an argument to the F$GETSYI lexical to find out howeE many contiguous free global pages exist.  Obviously, increasing totaleC number of global pages will generally increase the largest block ofmE contiguous global pages as well.  As I remember, your problem is moreUH that the global section table is too small.  If you still haven't solvedC it, I would try increasing GBLSECTIONS to a REDICULOUSLY high levele@ first, just to see if it has any effect.  I recommended possiblyH increasing GBLPAGES and GBLPAGFIL becuase I thought you might eventually; hit problems with these after solving your GSDFULL problem.n   P.S.6 When you do solve it, let us know what did it exactly.   HM   "Dr. Otto Titze" wrote:n >  > Hi,f > # > thanks for your contribution. Buth > ) > > Also check the CONTIG_GBLPAGES value.  > = > what kind of parameter is it? Obviously no SYSGEN parameterd= > (here exists only GBLPAGES, INTTSKAGES and ERLBUFFERPAGES).e$ > It is also not a SYSMAN parameter. > 	 > Regardsc >  > Otto > --. >  -------------------------------------------. > | Dr. Otto Titze, Kernphysik TUD           |. > | Schlossgartenstr. 9, D-64289 Darmstadt   |. > | titze@ikp.tu-darmstadt.de                |. > | Tel: +49(6151)16-2916,FAX:16-4321        |. >  -------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:18:20 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>p" Subject: Re: Your reply on GSDFULL$ Message-ID: <3b55b717$1@news.si.com>  ( >> Also check the CONTIG_GBLPAGES value. >  >what kind of parameter is it? a  . $ write sys$output f$getsyi("CONTIG_GBLPAGES") 6230  0 It's a parameter for the $GETSYI system service. -- aA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comeA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comn= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jul 2001 15:23:53 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER), Subject: [TCPIP V5.1] Still no TFTP client ?* Message-ID: <3b558de9$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  A Is this correct that the TCPIP V5.1 package still doesn't containw a TFTP client ?c   TIA    -Peter  G PS: I thought they migrated the IP stack from dUNIX to VMS to catch up,k? but PSC's stacks are still a lot better/more-complete than Q's.  --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888G< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:24:23 -0400r. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>0 Subject: Re: [TCPIP V5.1] Still no TFTP client ?+ Message-ID: <9j465n$r4i$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  I My search of  TCPIP V5.1 shows a TFTP Server, but no client, so I believe. you are correct.  D Just out of my curiousity, why do you require a TFTP client for VMS?   Ken Randells  5 Peter LANGSTOEGER <eplan@kapsch.net> wrote in message-$ news:3b558de9$1@news.kapsch.co.at...C > Is this correct that the TCPIP V5.1 package still doesn't contain: > a TFTP client ?o >a > TIAc >l > -Peter > I > PS: I thought they migrated the IP stack from dUNIX to VMS to catch up,sA > but PSC's stacks are still a lot better/more-complete than Q's.m > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-8882> > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.396 ************************