1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 27 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 414       Contents:5 (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE 9 Re: (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE 9 Re: (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE  Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption Re: 7.3 system disk corruption( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicateA Compaq destroys Storageworks (was Re: 7.3 system disk corruption) E Re: Compaq destroys Storageworks (was Re: 7.3 system disk corruption)  Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web] A Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS Mail (VMS Mail V7.3 ECO)  Re: Future of Alpha/VMS support - Re: how to write sys$output without linefeed? - Re: how to write sys$output without linefeed? ( Re: How2 DECnet-copy with two passwords?) Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS ) Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS ) Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS ) Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS : Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)% Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG % Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG % Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG P Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered  in VMS P Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS MP Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS MP Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS M2 Re: Keyboards, was Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History)* Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMS* Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMS Re: LPs on the Web Re: LPs on the Web Re: LPs on the Web Min Mem on a  DEC 3300 for VMS" Re: Min Mem on a  DEC 3300 for VMS
 Re: Minimerge 
 Re: Minimerge ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....) ? Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)  Ont "The Inquirer" today.  Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.  Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.  Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.  Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.  SAN-based Backup for OpenVMS$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ?$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ? Re: SMTP and distribution lists ( Re: Suggestion for IPF standalone backup" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base/ TCPIP v5.1 startup on dial-up service provider. 3 Re: TCPIP v5.1 startup on dial-up service provider.  The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: The Inquirer on VMS port7 UCX v3.0, How to "SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200"? ; Re: UCX v3.0, How to "SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200"? . Re: VAX/VMS Hobby PAK license question/problem. RE: VAX/VMS Hobby PAK license question/problem, Re: VMS remains secure at DEFCON hacker fest  Re: Who does migration from VMS?  Re: Who does migration from VMS?  Re: Who does migration from VMS? Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll  Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll  Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:30:50 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) > Subject: (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE/ Message-ID: <tm2uoq9f0bm722@news.supernews.com>   * I apologize if this is a little off topic:  H TechTV this morning reported that Compaq will exercise the new latitude G Microsoft has "granted" to PC OEM's:  AOL's interface will be featured  A prominently on new Compaq PC's, and Microsoft's IE/MSDN will not.   I Interesting behavior from what till now has been a seemingly MS-friendly  F company.  Is this a product of the reported expulsion in this n.g. of + "microsofties" from Compaq some months ago?    ws   --     Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:27:14 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) B Subject: Re: (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE3 Message-ID: <6KYMs2BSYCFq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <tm2uoq9f0bm722@news.supernews.com>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:   J > TechTV this morning reported that Compaq will exercise the new latitude I > Microsoft has "granted" to PC OEM's:  AOL's interface will be featured  C > prominently on new Compaq PC's, and Microsoft's IE/MSDN will not.  > K > Interesting behavior from what till now has been a seemingly MS-friendly  H > company.  Is this a product of the reported expulsion in this n.g. of - > "microsofties" from Compaq some months ago?   B               <<< EISNER::DRA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SHOP_TALK.NOTE;1 >>>0                                  -< SHOP_TALK >-P ================================================================================P Note 394.1                  Compaq to default to AOL                      1 of 1P EISNER::KILGALLEN "Larry Kilgallen, LJK Software"    18 lines  27-JUL-2001 06:537                          -< A financially sound move >- P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------O >    <<< Note 394.0 by EISNER::KILLEEN "Jeff Killeen CETS Business Manager" >>> 9 >                          -< Compaq to default to AOL >-  >  > From the WSJ...  > N > Compaq Computer Corp., in one of the first breaks with Microsoft Corp. by a J > major personal-computer maker, said it will give AOL Time Warner Inc.'s J > Internet services an exclusive position on most of its home PCs running . > Microsoft's forthcoming Windows XP software.  F For those who have not been following it (or those reading this threadF non-contemporaneously), AOL is reportedly offering a $35 bounty to theG computer manufacturer for each end user that signs up for their service  on the basis of such placement.   F Since that report is public, Compaq could hardly do anything else thanE go for the AOL deal, lest they face a shareholder lawsuit.  I imagine 6 $35 is quite a bit of additional margin on a $1000 PC.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:56:22 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> B Subject: Re: (OT) TechTV:  Compaq to spotlight AOL on PC's, not IE8 Message-ID: <7203mtcb6k6vsl1mgh49frt65jlt3f63oo@4ax.com>  B On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:30:50 -0000, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) wrote:   + >I apologize if this is a little off topic:  > I >TechTV this morning reported that Compaq will exercise the new latitude  H >Microsoft has "granted" to PC OEM's:  AOL's interface will be featured B >prominently on new Compaq PC's, and Microsoft's IE/MSDN will not. > J >Interesting behavior from what till now has been a seemingly MS-friendly G >company.  Is this a product of the reported expulsion in this n.g. of  , >"microsofties" from Compaq some months ago?  > Having already blown up the bridge it is no surprise if CompaqC management now wish to burn their boats as well. As Bill Todd might < say I'd really like to know what they are smoking right now.   >ws    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:28:25 +0100 + From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> ' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption & Message-ID: <3b615c30$1@pull.gecm.com>  * Yes, we have been making backups as we go!  ? As for the configuration, there are two points we are currently  investigating:E                1.  HSZ22 controllers don't appear to be listed in the ( OpenVMS Cluster Configuration GuidelinesD                     manual, although the HSZ22 manuals themselves do& talk about multi-host and VMSclusters.H                2.  One of the disks in the RaidArray 3000 is an RZ29B-VA (4.3GB) not an RZ1CF-VW asC                     listed in the supported devices for the RA3000.    TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Group  Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.   ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-2507011602530001@user-2ive7gm.dialup.mindspring.com...6 > In article <3b5ef7f5$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Tim Jackson"  > <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote: > A > > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000,  OpenVMS G > > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1, Advanced D > > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C, C++, > > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus). > > G > > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system disk?  WeF > > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have left the E > > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find  the D > > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISKF > > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when used, and G > > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR cleared.  > H > The only time I've had serious disk corruptions like this was when theC > disk was failing.  Lots of hardware errors were showing up in the  error  > logs.  > H > Multiply allocated blocks are a ticking time bomb.  There is a seriousD > problem here.  Make SURE you have good backups; you'll likely need themE > soon.  If you don't have them, back up what you have now, before it  gets > worse. > 8 > The next time you do an ANALYZE/DISK, keep the output. > > > Shared SCSI likely adds lots of extra opportunities for disk corruption. C > Are you certain your hardware configuration is supported?  Unlike C > single-host SCSI, where many unsupported configurations work just  fine, ? > with multi-host SCSI you need to stick very close to official  > configurations.  >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:30:21 +0100 + From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> ' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption & Message-ID: <3b615ca4$1@pull.gecm.com>  @ No, we aren't running a disk defragmenter (yet).  We plan to run@ PerfectDisk in the future.  Does anyone have any good or bad new" regarding PerfectDisk and VMS 7.3?   TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Group  Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.   2 "Gabriel Sterk" <gabi@aipm.co.il> wrote in message, news:000701c11593$0eed67e0$2c46bf10@manai...= > Besides looking for hardware errors, as others pointed out, 6 > do you have any disk defragmenter running at night?? > 
 > Regards, > Gabriel Sterk  >  >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@compaq.com]+ > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:49 PM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com + > > Subject: RE: 7.3 system disk corruption  > >  > >  > > Tim, > > H > > As Robert just pointed out - are there any HW errors reported in the > > errorlog ? > > @ > > Reason for asking is that I have a few internal VMS V7.3 lab > > servers that I7 > > have installed with no issues like this. I just ran  > > $ana/disk/repair on one 6 > > that has been up for approx 3 weeks and it ran ok. > > 7 > > Also, these folks have been running OpenVMS V7.3 in  > > production for some time< > > (albeit in a different HW config) and, to the best of my > > knowledge, never" > > had the issues you mentioned -A > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/  > >  > > Regards, > >  > > Kerry Main > > Senior Consultant  > > Compaq Canada Inc. > > Professional Services  > > Voice: 613-592-4660  > > Fax  :  819-772-7036  > > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com > >  > >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Tim Jackson [mailto:tim.jackson@amsjv.com]  > > Sent: July 25, 2001 12:56 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' > > Subject: 7.3 system disk corruption  > >  > > A > > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000,  OpenVMS G > > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1, Advanced D > > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C, C++, > > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus). > > A > > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system 
 > > disk?  We F > > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have left the E > > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find  the D > > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISKF > > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when used, and G > > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR cleared.  > >  > > TIA H > > ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------H > > Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com > > Air Systems Group  > > Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:31:37 +0100 + From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> ' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption & Message-ID: <3b615cf3$1@pull.gecm.com>  E Yes, the disk is mounted on both systems, and yes the systems can see  each other with SHOW CLUSTER.    TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Group  Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.   8 "Paul Nankervis" <paulnank@au1.ibm.com> wrote in message) news:9join5$3ae4$1@poknews.pok.ibm.com...  > 8 > "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote in message" > news:3b5ef7f5$1@pull.gecm.com...A > > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000,  OpenVMS G > > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1, Advanced D > > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C, C++, > > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus). > > G > > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system disk?  WeF > > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have left the E > > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find  the D > > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISKF > > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when used, and G > > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR cleared.  > >  > G > Is the disk in question mounted on both systems? If so do the systems  see  > eachF > other as cluster members? (SHOW CLUSTER)   You tend to get this sort of@ > problem if two independant VMS systems access the same disk... >  > Paul Nankervis >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:17:36 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>P' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption 1 Message-ID: <NSd87.224$Yx2.3593@news.cpqcorp.net>o  F Corruption is bad.  If this is something that started happening as theI result of an upgrade, I would file a problem report ASAP, and get someonem here at Compaq working on it.m      : Tim Jackson wrote in message <3b615c30$1@pull.gecm.com>...+ >Yes, we have been making backups as we go!n >e@ >As for the configuration, there are two points we are currently >investigating:tF >               1.  HSZ22 controllers don't appear to be listed in the) >OpenVMS Cluster Configuration Guidelines E >                    manual, although the HSZ22 manuals themselves do ' >talk about multi-host and VMSclusters.bI >               2.  One of the disks in the RaidArray 3000 is an RZ29B-VA  >(4.3GB) not an RZ1CF-VW as D >                    listed in the supported devices for the RA3000. >u >TIAE >------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------dE >Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com  >Air Systems Group >Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd. > @ >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageG >news:rdeininger-2507011602530001@user-2ive7gm.dialup.mindspring.com...c7 >> In article <3b5ef7f5$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Tim Jackson"a! >> <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote:o >>B >> > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000, >OpenVMSH >> > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1, AdvancedE >> > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C,P >C++,l >> > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus).o >> >H >> > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system disk? >WelG >> > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have leftw >theF >> > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find >theE >> > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISK G >> > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when used,o >andH >> > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR cleared. >>I >> The only time I've had serious disk corruptions like this was when the)D >> disk was failing.  Lots of hardware errors were showing up in the >error >> logs. >>I >> Multiply allocated blocks are a ticking time bomb.  There is a seriousaE >> problem here.  Make SURE you have good backups; you'll likely needs >themsF >> soon.  If you don't have them, back up what you have now, before it >gets 	 >> worse.e >>9 >> The next time you do an ANALYZE/DISK, keep the output.s >>? >> Shared SCSI likely adds lots of extra opportunities for diskK >corruption.D >> Are you certain your hardware configuration is supported?  UnlikeD >> single-host SCSI, where many unsupported configurations work just >fine,@ >> with multi-host SCSI you need to stick very close to official >> configurations. >> >> --  >> Robert Deiningero >> rdeininger@mindspring.com >W >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:48:56 +0100a+ From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com>w' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruptione& Message-ID: <3b616f10$1@pull.gecm.com>  H It's not an upgrade, but a new cluster system we are building to replace an old VAXcluster.  D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Groupq Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.I  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:NSd87.224$Yx2.3593@news.cpqcorp.net...eH > Corruption is bad.  If this is something that started happening as theC > result of an upgrade, I would file a problem report ASAP, and geta someone  > here at Compaq working on it.e >u >o >a< > Tim Jackson wrote in message <3b615c30$1@pull.gecm.com>...- > >Yes, we have been making backups as we go!t > >pB > >As for the configuration, there are two points we are currently > >investigating:oH > >               1.  HSZ22 controllers don't appear to be listed in the+ > >OpenVMS Cluster Configuration Guidelines G > >                    manual, although the HSZ22 manuals themselves doo) > >talk about multi-host and VMSclusters.eB > >               2.  One of the disks in the RaidArray 3000 is an RZ29B-VA > >(4.3GB) not an RZ1CF-VW asEF > >                    listed in the supported devices for the RA3000. > >p > >TIAG > >------------------ Purely Personal Opinion ------------------------- G > >Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.comi > >Air Systems Group > >Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd. > >aB > >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message >PG >news:rdeininger-2507011602530001@user-2ive7gm.dialup.mindspring.com...-9 > >> In article <3b5ef7f5$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Tim Jackson"c# > >> <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote:u > >>D > >> > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000,
 > >OpenVMSA > >> > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1,: AdvancedG > >> > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C,s > >C++,g! > >> > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus).c > >> >D > >> > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system disk?t > >WenD > >> > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have left > >theH > >> > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find > >theG > >> > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISK C > >> > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when  used,i > >andA > >> > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR  cleared. > >>G > >> The only time I've had serious disk corruptions like this was when( theeF > >> disk was failing.  Lots of hardware errors were showing up in the > >error
 > >> logs. > >>C > >> Multiply allocated blocks are a ticking time bomb.  There is am seriousrG > >> problem here.  Make SURE you have good backups; you'll likely needx > >themeH > >> soon.  If you don't have them, back up what you have now, before it > >getst > >> worse.m > >>; > >> The next time you do an ANALYZE/DISK, keep the output.  > >>A > >> Shared SCSI likely adds lots of extra opportunities for disky > >corruption.F > >> Are you certain your hardware configuration is supported?  UnlikeF > >> single-host SCSI, where many unsupported configurations work just > >fine,B > >> with multi-host SCSI you need to stick very close to official > >> configurations. > >> > >> --= > >> Robert Deininger= > >> rdeininger@mindspring.com > >1 > >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:49:37 -0400 2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption * Message-ID: <3B617F81.FF94D13A@oracle.com>  9 also make certain to SET VOLUME/REBUILD=FORCE immediately- before doing ANAL/DISK.y   Tim Jackson wrote: > G > Configuration:   DS10 and DS20E, shared SCSI, RAIDarray 3000, OpenVMS E > 7.3 plus latest patches, DECnet-Plus, TCP/IP Services 5.1, Advanced,G > Server 7.3 (as BDC), DECwindows Motif 1.2-6, FORTRAN, Pascal, C, C++,c > GKS, DCPS-(Open and Plus). > I > Has anyone experienced corruption of their OpenVMS 7.3 system disk?  WefH > have successfully configured our system, but twice now I have left theG > system running overnight only to come in the next morning to find theoB > system disk corrupted.  Many symptoms reported from ANALYZE/DISKH > including multiply allocated blocks, blocks marked free when used, andE > many others I can't remember and which ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR cleared.a >  > TIAdF > ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------F > Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com > Air Systems Group- > Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.r   -- u> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:51:45 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>@' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruption-8 Message-ID: <4rv2mtg8nj68sjpk7oa6aroqps2pp72q7d@4ax.com>  1 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:48:56 +0100, "Tim Jackson"c <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote:  I >It's not an upgrade, but a new cluster system we are building to replace  >an old VAXcluster.   D You are building a new cluster with HSZ22 controllers? Oh dear. TimeE to get on to your Compaq account manager fast. Building a new clusternB with a controller  for which there already is a support retirement# notice is not a terribly good idea.s     -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:39:56 GMTi2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruptiony1 Message-ID: <wPg87.241$Yx2.3714@news.cpqcorp.net>w  i In article <NSd87.224$Yx2.3593@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:nG :Corruption is bad.  If this is something that started happening as thesJ :result of an upgrade, I would file a problem report ASAP, and get someone :here at Compaq working on it.  L   Massive system disk corruptions are common and expected with misconfiguredJ   multi-host SCSI configurations -- when votes and expected_votes are set K   against recommendations and you boot two hosts from the same system root,lL   these corruptions are what you can (and usually do) get.  You can also getJ   problems when you have incorrectly duplicated unit numbers -- two uniqueM   devices, both with the same unit number -- within the same disk allocation -   class.  H   Though this may well be another problem...  (And one I am not familiarI   with, as I've not personally seen nor heard of this particular sort of M   corruptive misbehaviour.)r  J   This should be reported to Compaq Customer Support -- and please expect E   to be asked extensive details of the current cluster configuration,e    firmware revisions, ECOs, etc.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:55:06 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruptiontL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2707011255070001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>  1 In article <wPg87.241$Yx2.3714@news.cpqcorp.net>,n$ hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam wrote:  N >   Massive system disk corruptions are common and expected with misconfiguredL >   multi-host SCSI configurations -- when votes and expected_votes are set M >   against recommendations and you boot two hosts from the same system root,p< >   these corruptions are what you can (and usually do) get.  H Are there checks to keep VMS from booting two nodes from the same systemG root? Or is a mis-typed >>> BOOT command enough to trash a disk, if thee8 specified system root is already in use by another node?   -- h Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:45:45 GMTk2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)' Subject: Re: 7.3 system disk corruptione1 Message-ID: <dNh87.248$Yx2.3736@news.cpqcorp.net>o   In article <rdeininger-2707011255070001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: 2 :In article <wPg87.241$Yx2.3714@news.cpqcorp.net>,% :hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam wrote:: :2O :>   Massive system disk corruptions are common and expected with misconfigurediM :>   multi-host SCSI configurations -- when votes and expected_votes are set  N :>   against recommendations and you boot two hosts from the same system root,= :>   these corruptions are what you can (and usually do) get.? : I :Are there checks to keep VMS from booting two nodes from the same system H :root? Or is a mis-typed >>> BOOT command enough to trash a disk, if the9 :specified system root is already in use by another node?e     From the cited post:  I     "...when votes and expected_votes are set against recommendations..."      From the OpenVMS FAQ:e  H     "...This mechanism is designed to prevent a partitioned VMScluster, 7     and the resultant massive disk data corruptions..."   B     "...The quorum scheme is a set of "blade guards" deliberately D     implemented by OpenVMS Engineering to provide data integrity -- F     remove these blade guards at your peril.  OpenVMS Engineering did H     not implement the quorum mechanism to make your life more difficult H     -- quorum was implemented to keep your data from getting scrambled."  I   Please see the OpenVMS FAQ for further details.  More specifically, seeiI   the section of the FAQ entitled "MGMT10. What is the correct value for r#   EXPECTED_VOTES in a VMScluster?".   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:22:59 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>M1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicategH Message-ID: <y466cex2cs.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   O > Microsoft is intent on shoving that software down the throaths of every largenL > corporation. Microsoft's now confirmed and tolerated monopoly status meansJ > that the odds of Microsoft eventually succeeding is pushing NT into true' > enterprise solutions are pretty good.+  M There are still two parties to a purchase. Your model surmises that MicrosoftfM actually attains monopoly status in the enterprise computing field. The signsrM I currently see is that that is not going to occur - not with its current setcN of software offerings. In the past two years or so, decision makers seem to beK waking up to the fact that Windows <whatever> cannot deliver in this field, N and that any alternative will is better. Thus, Compaq is continuing to destroy itself in this market.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:53:01 -0700-% From: J Ahlstrom <jahlstro@cisco.com> 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicatet) Message-ID: <3B619C6C.84294382@cisco.com>    JF Mezei wrote:-   > J Ahlstrom wrote: A > > or their intentions to put their money where it woule producecB > > the most return.  Which, I believe, Compaq as a non-non-profit% > > company is required by law to do.t >dO > I am not sure that a company is required by law to generate profits. AirlinesWP > would all be in prison if that were the case, so would Nortel, Lucent, Compaq,- > and off course all dot.com shell companies.    --snip snipsA I am sure you are right.  I don't think a (for profit) company isP: required to generate profits.  But I believe it is open toA shareholder suits if it cannot show that it is trying to generatec profits.   JKAr --5 The internet is "the largest legal creation of wealthf in the history of the planet."                     Noted VC 2000  . "I'm here today with something of an apology,"+ the Internet is "the largest legal creations: (and evaporation) of wealth in the history of the planet."/ But, "I stand by my statement that the Internete was -- and is -- under-hyped".                   Noted VC 2001    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:31:58 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>mJ Subject: Compaq destroys Storageworks (was Re: 7.3 system disk corruption)8 Message-ID: <k7p2mt8nvji1g5bi8ok9rnh60k6e3ojth9@4ax.com>  1 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:28:25 +0100, "Tim Jackson"  <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> wrote:  + >Yes, we have been making backups as we go!  > @ >As for the configuration, there are two points we are currently >investigating:hF >               1.  HSZ22 controllers don't appear to be listed in the) >OpenVMS Cluster Configuration GuidelineseE >                    manual, although the HSZ22 manuals themselves do-' >talk about multi-host and VMSclusters.0  E You might be interested to know that the RA3000/HSZ22 is on a list ofPD controllers now being retired even though it is A CURRENTLY SHIPPING
 PRODUCT!!!!!!o= http://www.compaq.com/products/storageworks/RA3000/index.htmle   Compaq have gone f**king nuts.  E I have just received a letter from Compaq which states "we have begunp> a retirement process for the distribution and services for the1 software of the following storage hardware items:k  E HS1CP, HSD30, HSD50, HSJ30, HSJ40, HSJ50, HSZ40, HSZ50, HSZ70, RA410,e RA450, RA3000 with HSZ22."  D Software support ends on 30-JAN-2002 except for some limited configs: of the RA3000 which will be supported until 31-July-2003.   E "As a result of this retirement, Compaq SOFTWARE Services (ie licenset@ subscription, software update distribution services and softwareE telephone support) will no longer be available for the above items as C of 30th Jan 2002. Note hardware maintenance continues for the aboveT! items (but for how long - Alan)."o  A It then adds the suggested upgrade for RA3000 (as the poster I am E following up to has) "RA3000 with HSZ22 migrate to HSG80"  Yeh right!a  D So if you hit a data corruption type software bug you wall not get aD fix although they will continue to maintain the hardware for a whileF longer. Corporate policy would not permit me to continue to use any ofE these controllers without full software support. Luckily our criticalSE production cluster is dual HSZ80 based but we were actually quoted aneD HSZ70 based system just two years ago. If we had taken that option IF would today be forced to perform an unbudgeted upgrade to HSG80 by the end of January.d  C Compaq's suggested solution is to upgrade to an HSG80. So Compaq is D now decimating its highly profitable storage division and destroying9 customer confidence. Compaq's management are incompetent,i@ business-blind, moronic, creeps and I just wish VMS was owned by9 someone else so I never had to deal with them ever again.>  C The letter is signed Trish Sandys (Compaq UK)  and provides a handy D call number for customers to phone to upgrade to an HSG80. They'd be* better off just giving Sun's phone number.   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 27 JUL 2001 15:27:07 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)N Subject: Re: Compaq destroys Storageworks (was Re: 7.3 system disk corruption)6 Message-ID: <27JUL01.15270790@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  = In a previous article, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:   G ->I have just received a letter from Compaq which states "we have begund@ ->a retirement process for the distribution and services for the3 ->software of the following storage hardware items:. -> AG ->HS1CP, HSD30, HSD50, HSJ30, HSJ40, HSJ50, HSZ40, HSZ50, HSZ70, RA410,l ->RA450, RA3000 with HSZ22." -> ...C ->It then adds the suggested upgrade for RA3000 (as the poster I amtG ->following up to has) "RA3000 with HSZ22 migrate to HSG80"  Yeh right!n -> o  H I received a similar letter about software on HS*30,40,50 and RA410 overH a year ago. Again, the suggested upgrade was to an HS*80. We have a pairE of HSZ50's which have been rock solid. Good thing I didn't run out an6C buy and HSZ70 then. Next year it will probably be the HSG80's turn.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:50:21 GMTl= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) & Subject: Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web]0 Message-ID: <009FF9F0.DE389CA8@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3B60A9A0.28541.10D0D76A@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes:, >On 26 Jul 2001, at 3:01, John Santos wrote:J >> Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youH >> can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yearI >> plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year.  Say1/ >> one VMS kit + 4 LP kits for about $100 each.a >p< >Actually, joining CSA is $600 per year.  Assuming that the G >distribution subscriptions are $500 per year for CSA members, joining   >would make sense. >rF >Unfortunately, I've received no response to my email to Compaq about B >the cost of the distribution subscriptions for CSA members, so I  >don't know if I should join.V  D John may have been wrong about the yearly fee for CSA membership butA the fee for the SDK is about $500/year ($495/year to be precise).    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM-            rJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:13:33 -0400r5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>sJ Subject: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS Mail (VMS Mail V7.3 ECO)1 Message-ID: <ZOd87.223$Yx2.3528@news.cpqcorp.net>w  = Didier Morandi wrote in message <3B6070E2.486903BE@gmx.ch>..., >Didier Morandi wrote: >> >> How is Ken Olsen going? >s >Yes, how is he going?  >What's the name of his company? >Does he have a WEB site?s >t    G My wife talked to him a month or two ago.  His company Advanced Modular I Solutions is pretty much shut down, but he maintains a small staff at themL Boxboro site, where he still puts in a full work schedule.  He is apparently in good health.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:47:38 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>r( Subject: Re: Future of Alpha/VMS supportH Message-ID: <y4itgevjv9.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  1 "Joseph B. Gurman" <gurman@gsfc.nasa.gov> writes:   N > > When NASA was given the money to replace Challenger, Rockwell offered themH > > a copy of the current shuttles for $2B, or two copies of an upgraded7 > > shuttle NASA took the former, now called Endeavour.lJ > If any vendor tells NASA they can build 2 of anything brand new for any G > fixed price, they are either lying thjrough their teeth or suffering  K > from delusions of uniqueness --- NASA Is in the business of building new tK > things, and every new thing ends up costing more (sometimes way more, if uI > lots of changes are required after design and construction have begun) d > than originally intended.   I Indeed. But my original wording was bad. The point was that they would beoK using more up-to-date manufacturing methods and materials. Most of the cost M is in the man power to build these one- or, rather, five-off devices, so this ? quite conceivably might have paid for itself in the way I said.g  F It would be fairly easy, I guess, to use an FPGA to build a VAX-11/780H equivalent. Good luck in finding all the 74LSxxx parts to build a direct replacement.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:33:21 +0200o> From: "Jean-Francois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>6 Subject: Re: how to write sys$output without linefeed?- Message-ID: <9jr1ui$jp$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>0  H "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot> a crit dans le message news:* i%Z77.48944$TW.242549@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > Nope.-G > Why not keep everything in a symbol until you're ready to display it?o? > Or else, if it goes on the screen, use escape sequences like:  > string1 + esc + "7"f! > esc + "8" + string2 + esc + "7"h > etc. etc.  >yD > From memory I think that's it. esc + 7 = save cursor position, 8 = restore.  G The only problem is that write sys$output still issues a LF, so you canpE save cursor as line 24, than scrolling occurs, and you resume writing J at saved physical position, one line under the logical position you wanted to write to.  
 Jean-Franoisi   >- > -- >-	 > Syltrem-= > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site)n >s >cL > "frank brown" <frank.brown@ci.seattle.wa.us> a crit dans le message news:* > 1AZ77.296$S11.38758@news-west.eli.net...I > > I want to send a character string to sys$output without a terminating K > > linefeed, which WRITE SYS$OUTPUT always appends.  I looked at F$FAO butc IuI > > don't see how to tell it to suppress the terminating linefeed either.  > >l0 > > Anyone know a quick & simple way to do this? > >v > > -Frank Brown > > http://www.inwa.net/~frog/ > >  > >m >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:26:58 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o6 Subject: Re: how to write sys$output without linefeed?+ Message-ID: <3B61A45F.7372930@videotron.ca>r   Jean-Francois Marchal wrote:I > The only problem is that write sys$output still issues a LF, so you can-G > save cursor as line 24, than scrolling occurs, and you resume writingdL > at saved physical position, one line under the logical position you wanted > to write to.  & Reverse line feed is your friend here.  # $ENDLINE == ESC + "7" + ESC + "[1A"e $STARTLINE == ESC + "8"@  % $WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Hello how",ENDLINEs& $WRITE SYS$OUTPUT STARTLINE," are you"    N Endline saves the cursor position (ESC 7) and then moves cursor up 1 line (CSI 1 A )oW Startline restores the cursor position to where the cursor was when ESC 7 was received.p   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:07:55 +02008 From: holitska_a@ludens.elte.hu (Holi - Holitska Andrs)1 Subject: Re: How2 DECnet-copy with two passwords? ! Message-ID: <FYRoFymMPwfF@ludens>n  t In article <3B5FE94B.8CB831F@contrastmediagroep.nl>, Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl> writes:$ > "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" wrote: >> w0 >> On 26 Jul 2001, Holi - Holitska Andrs wrote: >> t >> >+Hi all! >> >+e= >> >+  Maybe a "tipical user question": how can I decnet-copye@ >> >+  files, when I don't have decnet-proxy on the target node,+ >> >+  and have not one, but two passwords?  >> m4 >> AFAI*R* this is dissalowed "by design", no way...  >>  Any correction welcome ! -:) > H > I think you are right. The only reason for having two passwords is theJ > requirement that it needs two people to access the account (each of them0 > knowing one). In this case this make no sense.  H I was just wondering, if it's possible. No real need for it (at least atG our site), just a "way" to boost your password character limit to 64 ;]   oJ > Also the disadvantage of two passwords is that if someone tries to breakD > in to the system, VMS will reveal the fact that the account exists- > because it prompts for the second password.t  J Well this IS an argument not to use secondary passwords, unless you really	 need too.c   > 
 > Regards, >  > Oswald   Bye,				<Holi>   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jul 2001 12:33:11 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t2 Subject: Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMSH Message-ID: <y4k80wc74o.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  0 "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:  < > > > Or, double map the pages.  One mapping UR, another KW?0 > > Quite acceptable. Page table space is cheap.L > Also, this makes for some interesting programming challenges.  I have codeK > that reads some performance counters that are UR with an option to "zero"oI > them by doing a change mode kernel.  For the cell $FOO, what address isk' > bound to the symbol table entry $FOO?f  I A different virtual one in USE mode and in K mode, but then again there'sYH precedence in VMS for that (some regions double mapped in P1 and S0, for
 instance).   > Can I write code that like' >     save_counters(){saved_foo=$FOO;};  >  >     zero_counters(){ >     save_counters(); >     $FOO_writeable=0;. >     };N > If the compiler inlines the save_counters and then reschedules the code, how > weird does this get?  J I don't quite see the problem with this. Either you are in user mode, thenG you see one translation; or you are in kernel mode, and you see another J translation - but the two are seperated by a system call, and any compiler/ optimizing across that is broken by definition.   J > Since the page protection can be changed on the fly, this means that theH > mapping needs to be different for all kernel mode pages not matter the > protection, doesn't it.   N No, only the pages accessible from outer modes need an additional mapping. ForK the kernel internally, nothing changes except in setting up the mapping. IteL has to be consistent, of course, when following pointers (as is required forL the modulatized exec) - but that is just a simple matter of programming 8-|.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:46:08 GMTg= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)n2 Subject: Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS0 Message-ID: <009FFA11.CE7E55DD@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <y4k80wc74o.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 >"mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:i > = >> > > Or, double map the pages.  One mapping UR, another KW?.1 >> > Quite acceptable. Page table space is cheap.nM >> Also, this makes for some interesting programming challenges.  I have code-L >> that reads some performance counters that are UR with an option to "zero"J >> them by doing a change mode kernel.  For the cell $FOO, what address is( >> bound to the symbol table entry $FOO? >:J >A different virtual one in USE mode and in K mode, but then again there'sI >precedence in VMS for that (some regions double mapped in P1 and S0, for6 >instance).a >o >> Can I write code that likeh( >>     save_counters(){saved_foo=$FOO;}; >> a >>     zero_counters(){  >>     save_counters();  >>     $FOO_writeable=0;	 >>     };aO >> If the compiler inlines the save_counters and then reschedules the code, hows >> weird does this get?o >tK >I don't quite see the problem with this. Either you are in user mode, theneH >you see one translation; or you are in kernel mode, and you see anotherK >translation - but the two are seperated by a system call, and any compileri0 >optimizing across that is broken by definition.   Then you're blind.  I If you have a routine which takes and address and a value and places that J value into the address you will have a problem.  If you obtain the addressI in user mode and invoke the routine in kernel mode via $CMKRNL, you will TF be having a heap of trouble with ACCVIOs causing SSRVEXCEPT bugchecks!   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr            cJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 18:04:47 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>p2 Subject: Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMSH Message-ID: <y4u1zynysg.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:m  K > If you have a routine which takes and address and a value and places that L > value into the address you will have a problem.  If you obtain the addressK > in user mode and invoke the routine in kernel mode via $CMKRNL, you will hH > be having a heap of trouble with ACCVIOs causing SSRVEXCEPT bugchecks!  K Such code would likely have broken going VAX to Alpha. Such code broke when L the exec was modularized. So what is new? Kernel-mode hacking still requires your brain to be working.c   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:17:33 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)p2 Subject: Re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS0 Message-ID: <009FFA1E.942D59A6@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <y4u1zynysg.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:@ >system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: >+L >> If you have a routine which takes and address and a value and places thatM >> value into the address you will have a problem.  If you obtain the addressaL >> in user mode and invoke the routine in kernel mode via $CMKRNL, you will I >> be having a heap of trouble with ACCVIOs causing SSRVEXCEPT bugchecks!  > 7 >Such code would likely have broken going VAX to Alpha.d   Nope.      > Such code broke when >the exec was modularized.   Care to provide an example?S    4 > So what is new? Kernel-mode hacking still requires >your brain to be working.  I Unfortunately, I've encountered too much K mode hackery that was conjuredx up from disfunctional brains.i --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             oJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & HobbesH   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:12:17 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>fC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)u, Message-ID: <3B610640.D878F9EC@videotron.ca>   Rich Jordan wrote:J > Thanks.  Hope a true serial (not USB, though that as an option is ducky) > is in our future.a    	 QUESTION:e  K Is the method of input/output for the console something which is inside the H CPU itself, or is that a motherboard issue with some motherboards havingN hardware that feeds console to a serial port while others having hardware that goes to a blue screen ?g  K For instance, the Microvax 3100 can either be a serial console, or have theiL console go to a video monitor with keyboard plugged direct into the machine.  H Does this mean that the VAX CPU inside has actual support for 2 types ofF consoles, or is it just a case of there being hardware/firmware in the( motherboard that drives the console IO ?   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:07:18 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)pH Message-ID: <y4u1zyvlqh.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:C  N > Are you saying that the IA64 console has enough intimate knowledge of NT and4 > DOS file systems, to go fetch a *file* on a disk ?  N Yes, just as VMS's VMB/APB have (just) enough knowledge of ODS-2 to locate theG secondary bootstrap - the knowledge to do this is minimal, and the data8L structures they support can never be allowed to change because older systems will then not be able to boot.  N Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the purpose, it makesM sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a FAT file system. I L am assuming the xEF OS type Fred is speaking of was not used before and thus% is a signal value for the EFI loader.e   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:13:20 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>tC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) H Message-ID: <y4r8v2vlgf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:u  M > For instance, the Microvax 3100 can either be a serial console, or have the N > console go to a video monitor with keyboard plugged direct into the machine.J > Does this mean that the VAX CPU inside has actual support for 2 types ofH > consoles, or is it just a case of there being hardware/firmware in the* > motherboard that drives the console IO ?  L The per-cputype loadable code (SYSLOADxxx.EXE) contains the code for consoleL output, among others. For the system you mention, this code will either callL a routine in the console ROM for the case of the serial console, or send theN data to a special X11 window (at some time two years or so ago, Fred described1 some of the magic required to get this to work). o   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 07:11:37 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)cC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) 3 Message-ID: <j5AzOtVe5171@eisner.encompasserve.org>b  [ In article <r2n1mtk3aud0pag34hg4jvlpdts63hqk1f@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> writes:CH > On 25 Jul 2001 07:47:14 -0700, jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) wrote: >  >>G >>     are we going to be "stuck with" a graphics only console?  Will a H >>serial console be possible?  Believe it or not, serial consoles are of2 >>some importance to us and some of our customers. > D > Actually, unless you're talking about some kind of console loggingD > system (a la Polycenter Console Manager), the Remote Insight BoardG > Lights Out Edition provides a really nice remote graphics console for 
 > servers.  A I realize it may be a different Compaq group using the same name,i> but I suggest people stay away from anything labeled "Insight"@ after the reported recent security loophole.  I figure all parts? of the "Insight" branded kit probably receive the same level of0 design review.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:02:09 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)s1 Message-ID: <gEd87.217$Yx2.3628@news.cpqcorp.net>   = JF Mezei wrote in message <3B60873A.A4C78E7C@videotron.ca>...? >Fred Kleinsorge wrote: K >> as would happen for bootblock booting).  It then knows how to find a FATrI >> formatted partition with a OS type of 0xEF, and it knows how to read an FAT = >> directory structure and find named files - like OS_LOADER.l >t >nI >Are you saying that the IA64 console has enough intimate knowledge of NT- and-3 >DOS file systems, to go fetch a *file* on a disk ?  >     K Why does it have to know *anything* about NT.  FAT is simple-stupid, and inr@ itself is not OS specific.  Yes.  EFI knows the FAT file system.  K >Does IA64 have some affinity to boot from a files on HP's proprietary Unixt >system as well ?S >a    H I have no information on what HP does.  If they use EFI, my reading says% they do it with an EFI FAT partition.p  H >Did Microsoft participate in the design of the IA64 ? If not, why would IntelaH >have embedded code in the console to know about Microsoft's proprietary file >structure ?  J Microsoft has provided a free FAT specification/license for the use of EFI, and software needed to implement EFI booting    K >I am curious about what would seem to be a big bias towards NT on the IA64  chip.o   Duh.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:04:12 -0400l5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>.C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)n1 Message-ID: <cGd87.219$Yx2.3392@news.cpqcorp.net>h  @ As a note, many new large server systems are being designed with5 "virtualized" consoles that talk over a LAN protocol.      Rich Jordan wrote in message% >Fred Kleinsorge wrote in message ... " >>Rich Jordan wrote in message ...C >>>"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messageJ- >>news:<x2i77.25$Yx2.499@news.cpqcorp.net>...r >>>  >>>Fred,H >>>     are we going to be "stuck with" a graphics only console?  Will a% >>>serial console be possible?   ....p >>>t >>L >>The EFI specification makes it clear that you can implement a non-graphics% >>console, and have headless booting.  >> >a >nI >Thanks.  Hope a true serial (not USB, though that as an option is ducky)e >is in our future. >n! >>>  .....  Or is it likely we'll F >>>have to delve into wintel utilities to 'set up' disks/partitions in >>>advance of using VMS? >>>t >>J >>It's probably too early to tell how this all works.  My guess offhand isJ >>that a contiguous file would be created for the EFI partition, and a newJ >>writeboot would construct and write the MBR.  A utility would then allowJ >>"files" within the FAT32 "partition" contained in the contiguous file to be >>read/written.  >> >t > E >Updated PCDISK for FAT32?  :)  And another file for the defragmenterg >folks to take into account. >e >Rich Jordan >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:02:52 -0400:5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>tC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) 1 Message-ID: <YEd87.218$Yx2.3558@news.cpqcorp.net>   G Dual booting different architectures from the same disk has long been ai	 non-goal.f    $ Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...D >In article <5OV77.169$Yx2.3341@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:- >-E >> No.  The console looks for a structure at the start of the disk to 	 determinefK >> if it is a "legacy" PC MBR, a new EFI defined partitioning record, or ann ISO? >> 9660 CD format. >.E >Wouldn't it be better, then, to base the VMS booting on the ISO 9660lE >format, since that leaves block 0 free, as I recall, for booting VMSo >on other platforms ?l >gC >I realize that booting two VMS architectures from the same disk isiB >not currently supported, but it seems better not to prevent it in >the basic format decisions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:07:54 -0400E5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>RC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)h1 Message-ID: <FJd87.221$Yx2.3391@news.cpqcorp.net>e  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3B610640.D878F9EC@videotron.ca>...  >Rich Jordan wrote:-K >> Thanks.  Hope a true serial (not USB, though that as an option is ducky)l >> is in our future. >i >a
 >QUESTION: >cL >Is the method of input/output for the console something which is inside theI >CPU itself, or is that a motherboard issue with some motherboards having<J >hardware that feeds console to a serial port while others having hardware that >goes to a blue screen ? >H    L Generally speaking, the physical "console" is materialized by firmware priorE to OS operation.  CPU's generally know nothing about serial ports, or  graphics heads.h  L >For instance, the Microvax 3100 can either be a serial console, or have theD >console go to a video monitor with keyboard plugged direct into the machine. >     K In this particilar case, the SYSLOA for the MV3100 tested for the existancen of a KB, and made the decision.e  I >Does this mean that the VAX CPU inside has actual support for 2 types of.G >consoles, or is it just a case of there being hardware/firmware in the ) >motherboard that drives the console IO ?a  9 The latter.  Firmware and software understood what to do.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:09:30 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)t1 Message-ID: <bLd87.222$Yx2.3436@news.cpqcorp.net>t  K I'm gonna go look aty this today (one of the engineers here happens to have- obe for a few days).   jlsue wrote in message ...G >On 25 Jul 2001 07:47:14 -0700, jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) wrote:c >R >>G >>     are we going to be "stuck with" a graphics only console?  Will atH >>serial console be possible?  Believe it or not, serial consoles are of2 >>some importance to us and some of our customers. >mC >Actually, unless you're talking about some kind of console loggingaC >system (a la Polycenter Console Manager), the Remote Insight BoardIF >Lights Out Edition provides a really nice remote graphics console for	 >servers.e >oE >Now, granted it doesn't perform a nicely as a character-cell consolesF >since it's throwing all those graphics around... but it's not too bad >to work with. >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:37:38 GMTs2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) 1 Message-ID: <C8e87.226$Yx2.3607@news.cpqcorp.net>   ] In article <4F487.18169$j02.268504@news.goodnet.com>, "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net> writes:s :Hoff, thanks for responding.i :eF :Hoff Hoffman wrote in message <42D77.93$Yx2.2617@news.cpqcorp.net>...? :>In article <cc5619f2.0107250647.7a7986fb@posting.google.com>, ) :jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes: F :>:     are we going to be "stuck with" a graphics only console?   ... :>E :>  It appears that both serial and graphics can be made to function, F :>  and we will likely need to get a serial console working during theF :>  debug.  If we use USB, there will be restrictions around switchingI :>  from a running OpenVMS system back to the console and then attemptingeJ :>  to continue OpenVMS -- that very likely won't work.  (No HALT and then :>  CONTINUE, in other words.) :o :w. :I recall your earlier posts on this matter.    C   Then you may also recall my "it's _way_ early for this question"     comments.-  F :...The restrictions imposed by USB would have an impact based on our H :current usage, but only a minor one (say once or twice a year where we ; :have to do something from the console without rebooting). n  C   Details on what you are doing at the console will be of interest.u>   There may well be an alternative approach already available.  G :Note that you'll have to give us a new way to force a system crash in t :that case too...,  F   You are asking questions on (or are specifically requesting featuresD   for) future hardware support, and not something I am in a positionE   to offer commitments on.  USB is the defacto standard interconnect eF   on commodity systems, hence that may well be the default management 1   interconnect on various new hardware platforms.   F   That said, at least for puposes of the OpenVMS system debug and for F   the sorts of remote console access used within OpenVMS engineering, G   we will have to get the serial console connections working.  We will CE   also have to have a mechanism to force a system crash.  Now as for >B   what will be formally supported, please see previous comments...  7   And again, this is _way_ early for these questions.  v  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:42:36 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>nC Subject: RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)oL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DA7A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan VorbrueggenI  ? > Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the c > purpose, it makes1= > sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a   > FAT file system. I  0 I think there's a contradiction in the above. ;)   Regards,   Chrise    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");f 'a  .   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 18:07:27 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>dC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)mH Message-ID: <y4r8v2nyo0.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:p  A > > Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the t > > purpose, it makes$? > > sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a u > > FAT file system. I > 2 > I think there's a contradiction in the above. ;)   Nope. Why do you think so?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:37:54 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>-C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)t( Message-ID: <9js5ea$kd8$1@pyrite.mv.net>  L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y4r8v2nyo0.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de.../ > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:< >@B > > > Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the > > > purpose, it makesn@ > > > sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a > > > FAT file system. I > >a4 > > I think there's a contradiction in the above. ;) >e > Nope. Why do you think so?  I I suspect he's referring to the conjunction of the term 'reasonable' with G the referent 'FAT file system' in any general context.  And I'd have tosL agree that any file system that makes one scan a linked list of addresses toC position randomly into a potentially large file hardly qualifies asdB 'reasonable' (for anything but the small floppies for which it wasF originally designed and possibly for the very limited boot-linkage use suggested).a   - bill   >c > Janx   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:42:01 -0500b+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> C Subject: RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)rL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DA80@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan Vorbrueggen   / > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:f  C > > > Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the R > > > purpose, it makesuA > > > sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a : > > > FAT file system. I  4 > > I think there's a contradiction in the above. ;)   > Nope. Why do you think so?  J I would argue that FAT is by no means a "reasonable" filesystem, and is asH hacked-up and twisted as the so-called operating system that spawned it.  5 You are, of course, free to have a differing opinion.h   Regards,   Chrish    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");r 'l  e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:15:08 -0700t! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>sC Subject: RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)r9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBGDBAA.tom@kednos.com>-  L Who cares, all you need is a small partition to accomplish the bootstrap and onceH completed you don't see it any longer, so you lost a few sectors.  Its a means, not an end.   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com]% > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:42 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComtE > Subject: RE: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)e >s >s >o > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jan VorbrueggenB >v1 > > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:e >dD > > > > Given that any reasonable file system is good enough for the > > > > purpose, it makeseB > > > > sense for Intel to base its IA64 systems architecture on a > > > > FAT file system. I >a6 > > > I think there's a contradiction in the above. ;) >s > > Nope. Why do you think so? >sL > I would argue that FAT is by no means a "reasonable" filesystem, and is asJ > hacked-up and twisted as the so-called operating system that spawned it. >d7 > You are, of course, free to have a differing opinion.7 >l
 > Regards, >+ > Chrism >a >o# > Christopher Smith, Perl Developeri > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >c > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");s > 'l >t >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:33:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>aC Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)o, Message-ID: <3B61A5E1.7F278D44@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:P > Yes, just as VMS's VMB/APB have (just) enough knowledge of ODS-2 to locate the > secondary bootstrap -a  J But VMB or APB.EXE are blocks that are read by the console. So the consoleN doesn't necessarily need to know about a file structure, it just blindly picks- up data from the disk at a specific location.d  M What Fred seems to be saying is that the console on IA64 will have sufficientlK knowledge of the NT file system to parse file system structures to find theo data it needs to read.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:38:07 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)R, Message-ID: <3B61A6FC.3E5DCF3F@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:N > The per-cputype loadable code (SYSLOADxxx.EXE) contains the code for console > output, among others.   N But by the time SYSLOADxxx.EXE is loaded, the machine isalready a VMS machine,  it is no longer in console mode.  N Isn't console mode all of the stuff that exists prior to you entering the BOOTG command as well as the initial action as a result of the boot command ?p  I I realise that console mode probably provides VMS with some basic IO thatn3 allows VMS to display the very early boot messages.P   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:19:44 +0100p% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o. Subject: Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG8 Message-ID: <p0u2mtoj9ndeqdoou7nskv7lnclbfsa30u@4ax.com>  4 On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:39:51 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   > H >Without access to Compaq's financial spreadsheets and a breakout of R&DD >expenses, it's a tough question to answer. I also noticed that iPAQK >handhelds now account for 17 percent of unit shipments. Perhaps CPQ shouldo >dump everything but the iPAQ?  E I think that's what they are doing. Perhaps with a side order. "WouldY% you like an HSG80 with that sir?" :-(w   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:13:05 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>. Subject: Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG: Message-ID: <Bih87.342$n_3.508077@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:p0u2mtoj9ndeqdoou7nskv7lnclbfsa30u@4ax.com...6 > On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:39:51 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >  > >hJ > >Without access to Compaq's financial spreadsheets and a breakout of R&DF > >expenses, it's a tough question to answer. I also noticed that iPAQF > >handhelds now account for 17 percent of unit shipments. Perhaps CPQ should  > >dump everything but the iPAQ? >mG > I think that's what they are doing. Perhaps with a side order. "Would ' > you like an HSG80 with that sir?" :-(p >i > -- > Alan  + Nothing would surprise me at this juncture.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:17:40 -0400i- From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>e. Subject: Re: ISSG down far, far more than BCSG# Message-ID: <sb616a00.067@aaas.org>b  K I don't believe that - there is still plenty of shock left in the system. =t< What is Compaq bought Lucent? That would be pretty shocking.  J >>> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> 07/27/2001 1:13:05 PM = >>>o  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:p0u2mtoj9ndeqdoou7nskv7lnclbfsa30u@4ax.com...6 > On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:39:51 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >v > >lJ > >Without access to Compaq's financial spreadsheets and a breakout of R&DF > >expenses, it's a tough question to answer. I also noticed that iPAQF > >handhelds now account for 17 percent of unit shipments. Perhaps CPQ should  > >dump everything but the iPAQ? >.G > I think that's what they are doing. Perhaps with a side order. "Wouldi' > you like an HSG80 with that sir?" :-(l >e > -- > Alan  + Nothing would surprise me at this juncture.t   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:41:26 GMT@ From: matthias.maisenbacher@de.bosch.com (Matthias Maisenbacher)Y Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered  in VMS  6 Message-ID: <9jrd06$imu$1@proxy.fe.internet.bosch.com>  H >With the DECPRINT Poscript-to-Sixel printing utility, it is possible toO >convert postscript images to sixel. You just have to do proper scaling so thatiI >it prints on the size of a screen (otherwise it generates 300dpi sizel).s6 You can also use GhostScript for converting PS to SIX.C I still use GS 2.52 (actual version is 7.xx) to do this on our VAX. B This started 1993 when we needed to be able to preview PS files on out VT330 terminals.      Matthiase  K    (who of course also have some SIXEL and ESCAPEd text christmas trees :-)-      ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:52:27 GMT0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)Y Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS M35 Message-ID: <9js2nr$3sa$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>e  ' In article <9jpcjt$6h5$1@joe.rice.edu>, * Jerry Leslie <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote:3 : Frank da Cruz (fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:p : :,C : : ...I actually like the (real IBM) PC keyboard a lot better than.E : : the DEC ones, at least after I've swapped the Ctrl and Caps Lock mC : : (and Esc and Grave) keys.  Unfortunately they don't make these e> : : keyboards any more, so if you've got 'em, hang on to them! : G : The Northgate keyboards are still available as Avant Prime keyboards,s  : from www.innovativeoffice.com. :  : Specs are available at:  : G :   http://www.northgate.com/products/keyboards_mouse/avant_stellar.htm  : G : These weigh 5 lbs, so will stay put, as well as larting (l)users  :-)cG : who want elevated privileges but can't explain why.               :-)  : E Yes, I know, I have several of them.  They would be perfect (true IBMRA look, feel, and weight PLUS programmable keyboard so you can swapSH Ctrl/Caps-Lock and anything else you want *in the keyboard*, independentJ of the OS) BUT...  they ruined it by messing by fattening the Return/EnterF key, thus leaving not enough room for all ASCII characters on the mainE keypad -- one of them is out beyond right shift.  Not great for touchuJ typists.  Plus whenever you go to type backslash you find yourself hittingF return, which is also pretty poor human engineeing -- if you're at theL shell or command prompt, that makes something happen that you didn't intend.  H Aside from this little flaw, which makes them useless for touch typists, they are wonderful.o   - Franko   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:10:52 +0100 , From: Paul Williams <flo@uk.thalesgroup.com>Y Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS Mc2 Message-ID: <3B604F1C.32926E23@uk.thalesgroup.com>   Peter Weaver wrote:V > B > If anyone has the space to put these then I can e-mail a copy inE > whatever format you want. Some emulators (PowerTerm for example) do C > a terrible job with some of these. You also have to set your baudh, > rate down to appreciate some of them also. > @ > Whoever wants to host these can post a message here and I will1 > e-mail a copy today to the first posting I see.1  H I can put these up on http://vt100.net if you like, Peter. I've also gotH some VT320-specific animations that I'm hoping to do something with, butH they rely on soft character sets. I was thinking of perhaps turning them in GIF animations.   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2001 16:06:52 GMT0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)Y Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS Ma5 Message-ID: <9js3is$4fn$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>b  ( In article <3B604AD5.C2CC4381@home.com>,> Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?=  <noone@home.com> wrote: : Peter Weaver wrote:l: : > You also have to set your baud rate down to appreciate : > some of them also. : 8 : OK. And how to do *that* with my telnet connection :-) : G Normally we don't want to slow down our Telnet clients but some of themt/ offer a way to do this.  For example Kermit 95:s  )   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html.  D has a way to replay session log files that includes a speed control.> It's a bit awkward but it does the trick (details on request).  K In Unix of course, you can also pipe these files through a filter.  Here isN a crude example:     #include <stdio.h>
   main() {       int x;
       char c;t       int n = 0;&       while ((x = getchar()) != EOF) { 	  if (++n == 500) { 	      sleep(2);
 	      n = 0;n 	  }	 	  c = ix  	  putchar(c);       }<   }.   Call it slowcat.c:     make slowcat   slowcat < xmas.vt2  E Obviously it would work better with per-character microsecond pauses,r1 but every Unix has a different way of doing that.r   - Frank    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 03:03:20 -0700e1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>a; Subject: Re: Keyboards, was Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History),3 Message-ID: <3B60D9F8.225F1F2E@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>m   Jerry Leslie wrote:e  G > The Northgate keyboards are still available as Avant Prime keyboards,   > from www.innovativeoffice.com.  A   Speaking of keyboards... I'm working on an Sun Ultra 10 and itsiD keypad doesn't play well with EVE/EDT.  Is there a DEC-like keyboard" for it or can I plug in an LK-xxx?   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/w   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:38:24 -0400l8 From: "Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com>3 Subject: Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMSd/ Message-ID: <tm2rat8qeg5rc3@news.supernews.com>    Mark  8 But that is supposing that you only use soft termination  J Things like a Toshiba DEC CD-ROM will not function correctly without being hard terminated on a Wide Buse  * Ergo - bumps it back to 8 bit - right ??!?  = "Mark Berryman" <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> wrote in messagey& news:3B601ECE.1C918DA8@Mvb.Saic.Com..." > D.B. Turner, islandco.com wrote: > >u > > Rich > >pF > > On - PC's -I can't see how it can do that with one controller chipH > > Now I know you can run Ultra Wide and LVD on the same card - it justK > > separates the bus (with two connectors on the internals of the board) -  UW+ > > to one connector and LVD's on the othera > >eI > > But that doesn't fix the problem with termination - which is where ito allm > > goes to sh** > >,H > > 8 bit term on one side requires the same on the other - Ergo, 8 bits from! > > the 16 go to never-never land- >-J > Well, no, that's not true.  In this case, terminators are used that onlyI > terminate the high end of the bus when adding 8 bit devices to a 16 bit-H > bus.  So wide devices can still do a wide transfer, even when an 8 bitA > device is also on the bus.  On later model Alphas with software2H > termination support, you will also see an option to terminate just theH > high or low 8 bits.  This lets you have, for example, all wide devicesG > on the internal bus and all narrow devices on the external bus (other ( > combinations are possible, of course). >oF > What does get impacted with some controllers is speed.  If you add aI > 10mhz narrow drive to a bus containing 20mhz wide drives you will, withcJ > some controllers, drop the speed of the wide drives from 40MBytes/sec toJ > 20MBytes/sec (you end up limiting them to 10MHZ transfers, tranferring 2D > bytes per cycle).  Newer controllers, however, can negotiate speedJ > individually with each drive and then this problem does not occur.  I doG > not know which of the VMS-supported scsi cards have this feature as Im< > don't usually mix wide and narrow devices on the same bus. >n > Mark Berrymana   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:15:29 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)3 Subject: Re: KZPCA SCSI adapter board for Alpha/VMSoL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2707011115300001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <tm2rat8qeg5rc3@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:   > Mark > : > But that is supposing that you only use soft termination > L > Things like a Toshiba DEC CD-ROM will not function correctly without being > hard terminated on a Wide Bus: > , > Ergo - bumps it back to 8 bit - right ??!?    I I don't understand your terminology here.  What do you mean by "hard" andm "soft" termination?i   -- u Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:13:50 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>r Subject: Re: LPs on the Web K Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107270812590.26223-100000@firewall.freddym.org>A   Hi!e  K > > Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youtI > > can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yeareE > > plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year.e > I > Now, if there were a parallel to that for end-users - so the people whoyF > might buy any software CSAs develop can afford the platform that the > software runs on...i > G > Oops! Sorry - I keep forgetting that I'm only person in the world whol > understands that...w  , Nope - you're certainly not - I fully agree!   Greetings  - Freddyu -- uN Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================>  Frederik Meerwaldt           Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much morecI  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOS    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 07:08:09 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)p Subject: Re: LPs on the Webo3 Message-ID: <PVs4M0w5opq$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3B60D49B.300085F7@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > John Santos wrote:  J >> Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youH >> can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yearD >> plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year. > I > Now, if there were a parallel to that for end-users - so the people whonF > might buy any software CSAs develop can afford the platform that the > software runs on...- > G > Oops! Sorry - I keep forgetting that I'm only person in the world whoi > understands that...  > & > ...other than Bill Gates, that is...  F The Bill Gates I know is for Microsoft, and their package for non-ISVsH costs $2000 per year, whereas approved ISVs pay Microsoft $500 per year.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jul 2001 12:15:35 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>- Subject: Re: LPs on the WebtH Message-ID: <y4n15sc7y0.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  F >   Some is simple stuff, some is more involved.  I would want to knowE >   that the kit unpacks.  That the kit installs.  That the kit's owntE >   installation verification procedure (IVP) (still) works.  That a eF >   kit that was not revised for a new operating system release still E >   installs.  That the general operating system and platform-relatede; >   documentation associated with the kit is still current.   ; All that is paid for out of individual product development.t  8 >   That there is not a new kit or a necessary ECO kit.   H This I will allow, although the information flow should be driven by theF individual product managers, and only collated by the CONDIST manager.  L >   Verification that the resulting CD-R media actually does read correctly + >   in a reasonable variety of CD-R drives.~  G CD-R for CONDIST? But in any case, yes, this type of quality control is-9 required. With a reference source, that can be automated.3  I No, this isn't reocket science. Even the kit interdepencies can be easilyCL handled in an automated way - that is what computers are good at. Of course,K the data they are working on has to be correct - but then, there's no way avA human being could get it right when provided with incorrect data.t   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:48:57 +0200e7 From: "Dijk, Jeroen van" <Jeroen.vanDijk@Getronics.com>,' Subject: Min Mem on a  DEC 3300 for VMSd> Message-ID: <2795B75EF003D311801A00A0C906B511011C64CE@CUCEXEC>  7 What is the minimum memory for VMS at a DECserver 3300?f5 I try it with 16 Mb, but that clearly was too little.f8 What OS can I run on DECserver 3300 with 16 Mb memory?    @ Before I'm going to buy the expensive and rare 64 Mb memory sets2 I want to know that the minimum Memory for VMS is.  : Please help me so I can boot my DEC server with a real OS.    4 ****************************************************$ Getronics System Integration BV					 Business Continuity 								. Botter 15-90 			Telefoon  :	+31 320 266 314			) Postbus 2228 			Fax 	:	+31 320 266 219			h: 8203 AE  LELYSTAD 		E-mail 	:	Jeroen.vanDijk@getronics.com  6 **************** www.getronics.com *******************              n   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:52:23 +0200 (CEST)- From: Freddy Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org>i+ Subject: Re: Min Mem on a  DEC 3300 for VMStK Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107271750350.27248-100000@firewall.freddym.org>    Hi!r  9 > What is the minimum memory for VMS at a DECserver 3300?g7 > I try it with 16 Mb, but that clearly was too little. : > What OS can I run on DECserver 3300 with 16 Mb memory?     To be honest - none!> Really - if you want to "work" with it, or use it more or less- productively, you might want to add more RAM.p  B > Before I'm going to buy the expensive and rare 64 Mb memory sets4 > I want to know that the minimum Memory for VMS is.  J Just try it out - in fact it should work (but I don't suppose that it runs very fast).   < > Please help me so I can boot my DEC server with a real OS.  H This is not a DEC Server - DECservers were Terminal Servers DEC sold, so please don't mix them up.r   Greetings - Freddy --  N Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv  J ==========================================================================>  Frederik Meerwaldt           Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more I  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOS    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jul 2001 12:46:40 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t Subject: Re: MinimergeH Message-ID: <y4hew0c6i7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  J > Does the "simple" method really read the disk twice?  Or does the secondJ > read come out of a cache somewhere most of the time?  127 blocks is lessH > than 65k.  What disk can't cache that much data, even under a moderate > load?   K It still has to be transfered to the host performing the copy, and comparedt there.    K > In any case, with minicopy in V7.3, the performance of full copies shouldl > be of less interest.  C Not when building an initial shadowset, or after a prolonged break.n   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 08:09:59 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: Minimerge3 Message-ID: <OM+eNTYeJhwI@eisner.encompasserve.org>u   In article <y4hew0c6i7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:6 > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > K >> Does the "simple" method really read the disk twice?  Or does the seconduK >> read come out of a cache somewhere most of the time?  127 blocks is less I >> than 65k.  What disk can't cache that much data, even under a moderate  >> load? > M > It still has to be transfered to the host performing the copy, and comparedc	 > there. - > L >> In any case, with minicopy in V7.3, the performance of full copies should >> be of less interest.a > E > Not when building an initial shadowset, or after a prolonged break.c >    	Re: initial shadowset.V   	That is what:   	$ INITIALIZE/SHADOW/ERASE   	is all about!  Q http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/5423/5423pro_003.html#using_init_shad_hs  M 4.3 Using INITIALIZE/SHADOW/ERASE to Streamline the Formation of a Shadow Set J You can use the DCL command INITIALIZE with the /SHADOW and /ERASE commandC qualifiers to initialize multiple members of a a future shadow set. N Initializing multiple members in this way eliminates the requirement of a full) copy when you later create a shadow set. m    < 	Prolonged break?  Okay... why and what are they for?  Much  	needed rest?  :-)   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:19:57 -0400T- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>uH Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....), Message-ID: <3B61080B.DBE57F67@videotron.ca>   jlsue wrote:H > This viewpoint assumes, of course, that Compaq is free to discuss thisG > openly.  There are other parties involved in this deal besides Compaq)C > who may have reasons to keep some information closer to the vest.o  E Had Compaq had its customers big and small as a priority, the deal itdL negotiated with Intel and others would have allowed Compaq to inform all itsI customers. If third parties have forced Compaq to negotiate NDAs with the K customers it wants to keep, it means that Compaq discussed this and thoughtmH that it is only necessary to NDA the largest customers and didn't bother. negotiating for the rest of the customer base.    G > Um... with the cost of Alpha systems, I kinda thought we were keeping . > the smaller customers out of the VMS market.    M There are plenty of "legacy" customers on VMS. Plenty who still have some VAX L or ALpha systems that are in maintenance mode with no new applications goingL to VMS and waiting for the right time to get the budgets to migrate to Unix.  N Given the right signals and public commitment by Compaq, those customers mightL re-activate their involvement in VMS and start to spend on their VMS systemsL again. But the continued ignorance by Compaq of these customers only ensuresK that they do eventually go to a system that is actively pushed by a vendor.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 06:03:18 -0700  From: nclews@csc.com (Nic Clews)H Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)= Message-ID: <a720d610.0107270503.7c24e80e@posting.google.com>f  W "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message news:<9jps1v$gri$1@pyrite.mv.net>...    (long post)lK > So far, the indications seem to be that EPIC is limited and Alpha is more: > capable, given thato > = > 1.  chip areas are supposedly similar for McKinley and EV7,. > L > 2.  EV8 would provide much more parallelism than EPIC in its current form, > K > 3.  EV8 is said to require only about 10% more transistors to incorporatem
 > SMT, and > J > 4.  to add comparable parallelism to EPIC would not only require a majorM > extension to the architecture but an extension far less synergistic with itmK > (hence likely increasing the transistor count far more than EV8's similar J > enhancements even at whatever long-after-EV8 date such EPIC improvements > could be incorporated).s  D I don't know that much about the 'proposed' EV8 architecture, if theC details are at realworldtech.com, I'll find them and maybe comment.-E (If you've other tech sources you wish to share, either email or postd them to the group).e  J > > You are right in what you say, nothing concrete and technical has beenC > > said [and it's possible nothing ever will] but there's no smokerK > > without fire.  Compaq may have lit the blaze, but something fuelled it.o > E > The underlying 'fire' in this case is to all appearance the burning M > incompetence of Compaq's management in recognizing and exploiting the value.M > of their products rather than any deficiency in Alpha or its engineers.  If G > you took a poll here, I suspect you'd find that even most of Compaq's I > apologists wouldn't assert that the problems Compaq faces are primarily5 > engineering-related.  A In Compaq's defence it started as a 'Digital' thing, selling DLT,kF networking, storage, the (what I consider) botched end to the originalD Intel vs Digital row, all things I never would have agreed with if I were on the board.  = Digital always were a 'technology' company, we know it in the F software, and in the hardware which was typically built and not thrownD together. Apart from marketing, their main failing was delivering to$ match current technology directions.  D Compaq inherited the remainder of Digital technology and are dealingF with it as they see fit. I can't really say if they are right or wrongB in this, I don't know enough about the whole situation to comment.  I > > Agreed. There is so much more here, I've not seen here any mention ofAF > > the NUMA differences of an EPIC compared to RISC. My guess is thatF > > EPIC could fare better, because one of the things counting against> > > Alpha is the unpredictability, whereas EPIC relies more on@ > > predictability. I've no evidence, no proof, it's a gut feel. > L > I suspect your gut may just be telling you that it needs a snack.  Alpha's  / Sheesh, you been looking in my tuck drawer? :-)   K > SMT is best used at relatively fine grain (e.g., serving multiple threadstJ > within the same - e.g., server - process to avoid TLB and virtual memoryH > thrashing), while the locality artifacts of NUMA tend to be relativelyI > coarse-grained (that's what processor - or QBB - affinity is aimed at)..  F I was disregarding EV8, but you're right I should be comparing the EV8= with Itanium. I need to read up more about it... (Any furthers> references gratefully received). I probably need to restock on
 munchies too!   E All in all the decision has been made, and as a heavy user of VMS  onrC both VAX and Alpha, I'll embrace the Itanium releases as additionalrE systems to configure and support. I personally was sad to see the endoE of the VAX chip, but I haven't seen many others feeling the same way.-  D When was VAX cancelled, 1998? 1998-1992, that is 6 years. When AlphaC was launched in 1992, no statement was made about the future of VAX F although arguably it could have been seen seen as the beginning of theE end for the VAX chip. Compaq could have quite easily just said "We'redE porting VMS to Itanium" and said nothing else. 2008 - 2001 = 7 years. 6 How many years notice of VAX cancellation did we have?  C Comparing Digital to Compaq, I respect Compaq's honesty over _this_r issue. [Cancelling Alpha]  E I wonder if back in 1992, Digital said "We're porting VMS to a 64 bith chip andD VAX will only be produced for another 6 years and that's it" we'd be having similar arguments?r  D On the Other Hand, you could call Compaq the chip killer, but no-oneC seems to have really mourned the passing of VAX. I think there's nopD doubts that Alpha comparitively is cheaper than VAX with adoption of. industry standard motherboard and bus systems.  B A colleague and myself had wondered at the possibility of making a? cheap Alpha using a AMD Athlon motherboard - it looks as if theoC motherboards would support an Alpha chip, the only thing holding us E back was getting hold of an Alpha to fit the socket. The Athlon (fromtA AMD's tech information) and Alpha seemed to have enough technicalo7 similarities for it to be worth having a go. (Check out = http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon/techdocs/pdf/22054.pdfsB mentioning the 64 bit ECC memory and data path). Flashing the BIOSD would have been fun but I daresay we'd've wangled something using an# AXP 150 :-) Soldering Irons 'r' Us. ? (And consider this, the Athlon is only 4 less instructions than 	 Alpha...)-  C I think we can look forward to a time I can go along to my local PCiE dealer, and pick up enough bits at a price I want to pay, and run VMSe( on it. That's got to be good, hasn't it?   (My dates may be wrong above).( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:28:14 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>oH Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)( Message-ID: <9js1bn$h8g$1@pyrite.mv.net>  - "Nic Clews" <nclews@csc.com> wrote in messagea7 news:a720d610.0107270503.7c24e80e@posting.google.com...m   ...   F > When was VAX cancelled, 1998? 1998-1992, that is 6 years. When AlphaE > was launched in 1992, no statement was made about the future of VAX-H > although arguably it could have been seen seen as the beginning of theG > end for the VAX chip. Compaq could have quite easily just said "We're.G > porting VMS to Itanium" and said nothing else. 2008 - 2001 = 7 years. 8 > How many years notice of VAX cancellation did we have? >,E > Comparing Digital to Compaq, I respect Compaq's honesty over _this_4 > issue. > [Cancelling Alpha]  F That comparison would seem to require solid information that DEC had aH planned VAX cancellation schedule (rather than simply the suspicion thatJ someday this would occur) in mind in about 1990 at the latest.  Otherwise,J it would seem that DEC allowed *customers* to determine when their lack ofJ continuing demand made the cancellation economically justifiable - which IJ suspect most customers would have greatly preferred Compaq to have done in this case as well.   >PG > I wonder if back in 1992, Digital said "We're porting VMS to a 64 bit=
 > chip andF > VAX will only be produced for another 6 years and that's it" we'd be > having similar arguments?p  J As I said, the appropriate date (based on when VMS appears to be slated toK become available on IA64) would have been 1989 or 1990.  Not to mention the K future head-room provided by a 32-bit -> 64-bit address-space expansion andlH Alpha's performance being superior to VAX's, neither of which advantages! applies to the current migration.B   ...3  E > I think we can look forward to a time I can go along to my local PC G > dealer, and pick up enough bits at a price I want to pay, and run VMS0* > on it. That's got to be good, hasn't it?  J Sort of like being able to do the same thing with the Amiga's OS, perhaps:F fun, but of questionable utility if 5 - 6 years from now, if/when thatL situation occurs, the only major VMS 'enhancement' has been the port itself.  L Why anyone expects Compaq to treat VMS with any more concern than it treatedF Alpha is beyond my comprehension (especially given the degree to whichI Compaq has heretofore neglected VMS):  from Houston, they probably appearlF virtually identical, and the port seems likely to be only a relativelyH inexpensive way to try to keep *all* Alpha and VMS business from jumping ship immediately.-   - bill   >6  > (My dates may be wrong above).* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot comj   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:27:01 -0400t5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> H Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)1 Message-ID: <lEg87.239$Yx2.3771@news.cpqcorp.net>T  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9js1bn$h8g$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >fK >Sort of like being able to do the same thing with the Amiga's OS, perhaps:dG >fun, but of questionable utility if 5 - 6 years from now, if/when thataE >situation occurs, the only major VMS 'enhancement' has been the portw itself.i >s    G Bill, you make a leap here that no work other than the IPF port will hetB happening here for the forseeable future.  This is IMHO incorrect.  L BTW - are you the disgruntled former Digital engineer who specialized in VMS from the Inquirer? ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:46:49 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> H Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)( Message-ID: <9js5v1$l21$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:lEg87.239$Yx2.3771@news.cpqcorp.net...t< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9js1bn$h8g$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > >iD > >Sort of like being able to do the same thing with the Amiga's OS, perhaps:I > >fun, but of questionable utility if 5 - 6 years from now, if/when that G > >situation occurs, the only major VMS 'enhancement' has been the port 	 > itself., > >u >0 >1I > Bill, you make a leap here that no work other than the IPF port will heuD > happening here for the forseeable future.  This is IMHO incorrect. >0J > BTW - are you the disgruntled former Digital engineer who specialized in VMS  > from the Inquirer? ;-)  1 Nope - I would have done a much better job of it.u  J As for my leap, you'll note that it was part of an 'if' statement.  ShouldJ you have information about scheduled ('committed' is the word I'd normallyJ use, but it's recently been heavily devalued) aggressive enhancements thatI should ensure VMS relevance in the second half of this decade, I'm sure IaI would not be the only person interested in hearing about them - and about 3 the associated (non-port-related) staffing buildup.9   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:23:12 -0400w5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> H Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)1 Message-ID: <0th87.246$Yx2.3799@news.cpqcorp.net>i  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9js5v1$l21$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >. >.K >As for my leap, you'll note that it was part of an 'if' statement.  ShouldhK >you have information about scheduled ('committed' is the word I'd normallyaK >use, but it's recently been heavily devalued) aggressive enhancements thatmJ >should ensure VMS relevance in the second half of this decade, I'm sure IJ >would not be the only person interested in hearing about them - and about4 >the associated (non-port-related) staffing buildup. >     L Some prime areas that we plan to keep working on are performance (especiallyH IO), UNIX compatabilty/standards, management tools, and the file system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:53:38 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>vH Subject: Re: Now we're cooking with gas. (was:  Wailing and moaning....)( Message-ID: <9js9sd$of8$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:0th87.246$Yx2.3799@news.cpqcorp.net...=   ...e  B > Some prime areas that we plan to keep working on are performance (especially J > IO), UNIX compatabilty/standards, management tools, and the file system.  F I/O performance is always nice (too bad Itanic seems to be such a stepJ backward in bandwidth), but hardly an area in which VMS seems likely to doL much more than reach rough equivalence with its competition - an observationD even more applicable to Unix compatibility (I mean, if you want UnixH compatibility, I suspect that at least a great deal of the time you wantC Unix).  Management tools?  You'd have to be more specific for me tocL understand what compelling attractions they might offer over other currently! far better accepted environments.e  B And there certainly wasn't any interest in doing anything remotelyI qualifying as 'aggressive' with file system development when I visited 18i months ago.e  I Nic was suggesting that being able to buy inexpensive, PC-level commodity E hardware that could run VMS 5 or more years down the road was a 'good-L thing'.  My response was that it might be fun but hardly all that useful (to0 anyone who wasn't already a VMS addict, anyway).  C VMS was already highly marginalized before the Alpha debacle.  ThateK situation will only worsen for the next 3 years or so (until a solid ported@H version exists) unless Compaq takes aggressive action to demonstrate (inK funding, not words) a 'commitment' to VMS far solider than its 'commitment'aJ to Alpha ever was.  Nothing you've suggested above even starts to approachC the requisite effort (which of course would also include a parallel'& marketing campaign of real substance).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:33:09 +0200,< From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com>" Subject: Ont "The Inquirer" today.( Message-ID: <3B613555.96922F93@home.com>  ( An article about VMS, Rdb and Itanium...  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmi   Regardst Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:44:23 -0400a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2707011044240001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>  1 In article <3B613555.96922F93@home.com>, Jan-Erikf4 =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com> wrote:  * > An article about VMS, Rdb and Itanium... > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmy  H The "source" is a former Digital (not Compaq) engineer.  That would makeF him a bit out of date, at the very least.  He sounds very disgruntled.  B Some of the specific points about porting VMS to itanium appear toJ contradict statements made here by the VMS engineers working on the port. H I suspect the engineers doing the work have better information than this angry fellow has.u  G Unless he went from Digital to Oracle, I guess he knows even less abouts+ porting Rdb than he does about porting VMS.v  G The inquirer didn't really comment on the source's claims, just printedoG them for the world to read.  There's no indication that any attempt wasl made to check any facts.   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:30:15 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)p& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.3 Message-ID: <ht4jio$dtfEv@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   In article <rdeininger-2707011044240001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:h  I > The inquirer didn't really comment on the source's claims, just printedhI > them for the world to read.  There's no indication that any attempt was  > made to check any facts.   How is this news ?    :-)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:06:38 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2707011206380001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <ht4jio$dtfEv@eisner.encompasserve.org>,p: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > In articleA <rdeininger-2707011044240001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>,-4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > K > > The inquirer didn't really comment on the source's claims, just printedoK > > them for the world to read.  There's no indication that any attempt was  > > made to check any facts. >  > How is this news ?    :-)$  I You make a good point.  But I've been skipping the inquirer a lot lately;e( it's possible I've missed the good ones.   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:35:27 -0500 : From: "Scandora, Anthony \(35048\)" <scandora@cmt.anl.gov>& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.* Message-ID: <9js8p0$o2$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>  K Some details are correct from a small enough point of view, but I wonder ifeA the unpublished former Digital engineer's name is Chicken Little.h  K > "VMS requires a special processor, a VAX or an Alpha with PAL Code (PAL =aL Privileged Architecture Library), which is a sort of microcode. The point isB that VMS is not as portable as UNIX, it needs support by a special processor. ..."t  L Has any of the VMS developers named a hardware architecture feature requiredJ by VMS that cannot be in the future version of Itanium planned to run VMS?  K > He described RDB as a "beauty", resembling Oracle. Many of its developersn joined Soft (Microsoft) too.[  I Rdb was a beauty in Digital's day, and despite seemingly being treated as L the illegitimate stepchildren of the Oracle family, many of Rdb's developersK stayed with Oracle, and are still making it an outstanding product. PerhapsoL one of the Oracle Rdb people can say what fraction of the Digital Rdb people@ stayed with Oracle compared with what fraction moved to Redmond.  H > He said: "ACMS is something like CICS, still owned by DEC/Q, but not a: trivial thing. Does Q still have engineers to support it?"  G What does that have to do with Itanium? If they don't have engineers togI support it, it isn't viable even VMS remains on Alpha. (I'll overlook theh comparison with CICS.)  H > He said a "mass" of so-called layered products, were sold overnight toI some third parties, and he wondered how many of those firms still supporthL old versions of that software. "How many of them do still have engineers whoI know VMS? How many of these companies still have a VMS system," he asked.u  L What does old version support have to do with Itanium? Selling POLYCENTER toJ CA might be considered a mistake, but those were hardly critical products,J and if a company no longer has a VMS system, its non-support of Itanium is3 no different from its non-support of Alpha and VAX.'  C > One final hurdle faced the port to the Itanium platform, he said.oJ "Customers whose systems were up and running 24 hours a day for 365 days aE year, might not consider it fun to shut down their 99.9999% operatings< environment while the processors were swapped out," he said.  L They did it when they moved from VAX to Alpha, and they do it when moving toJ new Alpha generations. It's not fun, but proper testing and integration ofJ new systems is part of running a business. It has been done before, and it will continue being done.   A > "A quite unknown company named IBM invented things like the 370 I architecture,MVS and lots more, before the first VAX was ever booted in adI research laboratory. These things are as alive today as they were 30 plusr& years ago and Linux runs on them. ..."  I Current versions of VMS run today on ancient VAXes. How old a 370 can runeK current versions of MVS? All of IBM's latest hardware can run Linux. So cant Alpha. So what?l  J > "... That is as if Linux still ran on a PDP/11, and as if the PDP/11 was still being sold today."   > ...e  J > * BILL BRADFORD writes: "The PDP-11 *is* still being sold today, and hasF been continually since 1970. DEC just sold all the rights/intellectualL property for the system to Mentec (www.mentec.com) in 1990. I run a web site: about the systems which you can find here (www.pdp11.org).  I IBM's Systems/3, 32, 34, 36, and 38 died long ago. Like collectors of oldnK cars with crank starts and mechanical brakes, some people like to play withrH PDP-11s, but would anyone really want a Linux constrained by sixteen bitJ words, eight 4KW mapping registers, and other fundamental design decisionsL made in the days of > $1/word core memory? What does the continued existenceL of the PDP-11 have to do with running an outstanding modern operating systemE on hardware that will have far greater market penetration than Alpha?w  I The Inquirer has posted some good articles, but this was not one of them.q  1 Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541u   scandora@cmt.anl.gov  6 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <noone@home.com> wrote in message" news:3B613555.96922F93@home.com...* > An article about VMS, Rdb and Itanium... > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmp >i	 > Regardsa > Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:37:04 GMTp' From: Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU>g% Subject: SAN-based Backup for OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <3B6198B0.3949163A@UIowa.EDU>   G Does anyone know if there are any solutions available for using some offO the big, new SDLT tape library boxes in an EMA 12000 SAN with HSG80 controllersn; and using Fiber Channel for interconnects to OpenVMS Alphasd running v7.2-1?h  I In particular, I am researching the possiblility of performing the backupnO between the SAN-served disks and the SDLT drive *without* needing to move everyyM byte to and from the OpenVMS server too.  That is, keep all the data movement  within the fabric of the SAN.   O I believe there are solutions like this available for WinXX and Unix boxes, but'L I can't seem to locate anything that is available for OpenVMS that will makeL OpenVMS readable tapes.  Something that could be used for disaster recovery, etc.   Regards, Rick -- 0H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _  _____                    http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst  --  INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsH | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems BT1000 GH       Office: 319/384-7016H  \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052               FAX: 319/384-7020   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:39:16 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>a- Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ?nH Message-ID: <y4lmlavk97.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  " jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> writes:  H > In Compaq's case, it covers a business decision that is - at this timeD > anyway  - considered to be a corporate secret.  Nothing is broken.H > Customers aren't being extorted for  anything.  And it may be requiredL > by Intel to use NDAs to diseminate this information.  You just don't know.  E I can either assume your insinuation is incorrect - in that case, the H analsysis of there being a secret rationale to Compaq's decision stands.I Or I can assume it is correct; in that case, the posting alone would haveoI violated the NDA, because the conclusion must be that HP's designers have I worked a miracle with McKinley's performance - a miracle meaning it is ateJ least 5 times faster than reasonable estimates (e.g., those of Paul DeMoneL in his recent article). This also means that there are no problems with EV8,M as Compaq is claiming (part of the reason I set the "miracle factor" to 5 in   the above).h  E Now, shall I believe you or Compaq's "official" argumentation for thehL decision? No matter what I believe, the company's credibility is still shot.   	Jan   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:11:36 +0000 (UTC)o' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) - Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ?M+ Message-ID: <9jri98$hk3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>?  [ In article <rul1mtcfbghiggujnl68fpocj9icemfh80@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> writes:sF >On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:08:52 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> >wrote:y >j >>A >>"Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagem7 >>news:SDw77.1729$eH.1239581@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...l >> >>...n >>J >>> With EV8 the problem was cost and time to implementation. Further info >>> available under NDA. >>J >>Hmmm.  NDA because of the sensitive nature ot information cited as beingD >>sufficient to trash a highly-profitable product line.  Can you say >>'cachegate'? >> >  >p >Oh, yeah.  Alrighty.l > ? >'Cachegate' is about an incident where a vendor put out faultym9 >hardware, and forced people to sign an NDA to get a fix.- >-G >In Compaq's case, it covers a business decision that is - at this timerC >anyway  - considered to be a corporate secret.  Nothing is broken.tG >Customers aren't being extorted for  anything.  And it may be requiredeE >by Intel to use NDAs to diseminate this information.  You just don'tn >know. > C >I'm might tired of you always taking the worst view of everything.rF >Your position is well known, and it colors all of your arguments with >a lop-sided bent. >c@ >There just *may* be some pieces to this that you don't have the >information on.  Just may be. >e  G Why on earth would this business decision still be a corporate secret ?eN Having just assinated Alpha what more damage could possibly be done by lettingJ people kow what the business decision was based on - unless of course theyN think people will still think it was the wrong decision when all the facts are
 published.N The only reason Intel would require Compaq to issue information under NDA's isO if the information affected Intel's plans eg the idea that Intel might actually@P be dropping IA64 and replacing it with alpha. Unfortunately as had already been H discussed that outcome is about as likely as the Sun not rising tomorrow morning.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:19:54 -0400s3 From: "Brad McCusker" <Brad.McCuskerSP@Mcompaq.com> ( Subject: Re: SMTP and distribution lists1 Message-ID: <rsh87.245$Yx2.3724@news.cpqcorp.net>n  9 "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca> wrote in messageu. news:LYf77.267687$Z2.3257969@nnrp1.uunet.ca... > >hJ > I am currently running 7.1-1h2 and am looking to upgrade to either 7.2-1 orJ > even 7.3 if possible?  Do you now if Pathworks 6.1 is available soon and if > it will support 7.3?  C PATHWORKS V6.1 for OpenVMS is in final qualification, and should bel/ available soon, like later this summer, I hope.t  1 >We have a cost issue with upgrading all the lic.n  L Well, V6.1 won't help you there becuase, V6.1 will also require the upgraded 07.03 license.   >AndH > will 6.1 have the features of the 7.2/7.3. I am mainly looking for the > member server support.  K It will have Member Server and Windows2000 support.  It will also have some G of the performance improvementes we've been working on for the AdvancedmL Server product.  It will not have the Windows NT style printing, and it willH not have the Extended Character set support. As for features of AS V7.2,K PATHWORKS V6.1 will not have the ODS5 support, nor will it use or interfacet with the registry.  K If you are upgrading to OpenVMS V7.2 or later, and, you don't have VAXen iniA the mix, then, you really should use Advanced Server for OpenVMS.l  @ For more information see http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks     --( The opinions expressed herein are my own' and do not reflect those of my employerr or anyone else.a   Brad   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:45:15 GMTeB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>1 Subject: Re: Suggestion for IPF standalone backup 5 Message-ID: <vnd87.8732$ar1.29361@www.newsranger.com>   , On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:46:05 GMT, in article: <hk%77.189$Yx2.3522@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman wrote: >i{ >In article <aqU77.7536$ar1.24172@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:zE >:Is there any chance that IPF standalone backup could be enhanced to.H >:directly backup and restore savesets to and from a TCP/IP FTP server ? >nD >  IPF "Standalone BACKUP" -- an environment similar to what OpenVMSE >  VAX has used for initial system loads and such -- is not somethingc' >  that I would expect to exist on IPF.d >tG >  An IPF bootstrap of OpenVMS itself (from removable disk media) will a> >  exist, akin to what is done now with OpenVMS Alpha systems. >r  J Yes, this is what I was thinking of when I talked about standalone backup.L [BTW, just for future reference, is there some confusion here about the termH standalone backup ? I have always used the term "standalone backup" as aK generic term to boot to a self-contained environment for backup operations.iH On Vax, that's the traditional minimal environment. On Alpha, that's the# less minimal CD-based environment.]t  G >  NFS is probably too much configuration information to have to promptsH >  the user for -- having an option to start up a pre-configuring TCP/IPE >  environment (using DHCP client) and FTP might well be interesting.  >p  E I agree. Besides, for this kind of task, NFS does not really give youw anything over FTP.   Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPeK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered adE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.n   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:19:12 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user basehH Message-ID: <y4ofq6vl6n.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:-  I > Compaq is measured by itw Wintel activities. Compaq will survive. If it=N > manages to convert just 10% of its VMS customers to NT, it means that Compaq2 > will grow by 10% from Wall Street's perspective.  N Wrong numbers. If 10% of VMS customers convert to WNT, which currently alreadyG outnumber the VMS customers of Compaq at least 10 to 1, it will be a 1%1' increase. That's close to immeasurable.n  N And I cannot imagine any one who at this point in time is still a VMS customer migrating to WNT.4   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:54:46 -0700,1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>e+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user basen3 Message-ID: <3B60D7F6.29DC2DA9@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>0  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > H > Sun won here ......  5 x E-10000 to substitute more than 25 Alphas and > Vaxes and otheriD > RISC machines in our SAP project .... my countdown to turn off  my > Alphaservers systems ise > July, 2002...y  A   I suspect my previous employer, the Cassini Imaging Team leadernD (Mission to Saturn) will move off VMS and Tru64 on Alpha and all new? purchases will be slower and less reliable but more popular andb software-rich Suns.n  6   ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu is no longer running on OSU.   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/-   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:01:24 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base * Message-ID: <3b616624$1@news.kapsch.co.at>   In article <y4ofq6vl6n.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:0 >JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > J >> Compaq is measured by itw Wintel activities. Compaq will survive. If itO >> manages to convert just 10% of its VMS customers to NT, it means that Compaqa3 >> will grow by 10% from Wall Street's perspective.  >-O >Wrong numbers. If 10% of VMS customers convert to WNT, which currently alreadyiH >outnumber the VMS customers of Compaq at least 10 to 1, it will be a 1%( >increase. That's close to immeasurable. >0O >And I cannot imagine any one who at this point in time is still a VMS customers >migrating to WNT.  L And I cannot imagine why one VMS customer which is forced to migrate off VMSH by Q, will want to stay with COMPAQ at all, too. So, a lost VMS customer$ is a lost Q customer. What a DEJA VU   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888a< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:26:46 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base-8 Message-ID: <n8u2mtcbi9j20ntsi7j91htnp2747b4p2r@4ax.com>  . On 27 Jul 2001 10:19:12 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  0 >JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > J >> Compaq is measured by itw Wintel activities. Compaq will survive. If itO >> manages to convert just 10% of its VMS customers to NT, it means that CompaqX3 >> will grow by 10% from Wall Street's perspective.e >rO >Wrong numbers. If 10% of VMS customers convert to WNT, which currently alreadylH >outnumber the VMS customers of Compaq at least 10 to 1, it will be a 1%( >increase. That's close to immeasurable.  F And analysis of the limited financial information continues to supportC the notion that the VMS customers are highly profitable and that NTiB server sales are not. So even if 10% did switch to NT and 90% wentF elsewhere that's 90% of your VMS profits lost to other vendors and theA remaining 10% becoming marginal or, worse, loss-making. Way to god Compaq!o  O >And I cannot imagine any one who at this point in time is still a VMS customer  >migrating to WNT.  E They'll likely stay VMS while they can or else bite the bullet and gocE to Sun or HP. It is really hard to imagine Compaq persuading many VMS 1 customers to migrate from VMS to Tru64 right now.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:44:42 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>g+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user bases, Message-ID: <3B61A886.229580E3@videotron.ca>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:P > Wrong numbers. If 10% of VMS customers convert to WNT, which currently alreadyI > outnumber the VMS customers of Compaq at least 10 to 1, it will be a 1%s) > increase. That's close to immeasurable.g  K You fail to realise that the remaining VMS customers, the ones Compaq caresa about, are very large outfits.  N Folks have argued a long time that VMS would not be profitable at the low end.J Guess what, neither is NT. But put NT at the same high end as VMS is rightL now, and NT will be a cash cow too. And put VMS at the low end and you wouldh also have garnered a much bigger installed base and hence attracted a lot more developpers/applications.  K In other words: low end -> high volume/low profit -> attracts applications.   J And with the installed base and applications, you can then attack the very profitable high end.  L So while converting 10% of VMS customers may not yield a 10% increase in theN NUMBER of NT customers, it may mean that the profits those customers generatedL are simply moving from VMS to NT and Compaq can claim a generous increase inF NT profits (since it has gone very very little to substantial profits,& increased average NT margins etc etc).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:44:51 +0100d1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>d8 Subject: TCPIP v5.1 startup on dial-up service provider.6 Message-ID: <3B611BF3.37F654C3@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  A I'm now a subscriber to a dial-up ISP but there is (at least) onea	 problem :r  B As part of my configuration of TCPIP Services for OpenVMS v5.1 (on@ Alpha) I have smtp configured to use my ISP's smtp server as itsG alternate gateway.  When TCP/IP starts it expects to be able to see theb7 server (as it did with v4.2 as well) so I have to do anCF @SYS$STARUTP:TCPIP$STARTUP, wait for it to pause and then do my dialup( in order for TCP/IP Services to startup.H Any ideas what I might do to ease the situation and have TCP/IP Services# start as part of my system startup?   D Environment is a DEC 3000 model 600 workstation running OpenVMS v7.3E with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.1.  Dialup connection usesn? PPP and the number is stored in the configuration on the modem.g   Thanks in advance. Steve. -- nG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likeiE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.dA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:25:24 GMTaB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>< Subject: Re: TCPIP v5.1 startup on dial-up service provider.5 Message-ID: <U4d87.8720$ar1.29307@www.newsranger.com>   . On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:44:51 +0100, in article> <3B611BF3.37F654C3@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>, Steve Reece wrote: >-B >I'm now a subscriber to a dial-up ISP but there is (at least) one
 >problem : >kC >As part of my configuration of TCPIP Services for OpenVMS v5.1 (onDA >Alpha) I have smtp configured to use my ISP's smtp server as itsnH >alternate gateway.  When TCP/IP starts it expects to be able to see the8 >server (as it did with v4.2 as well) so I have to do anG >@SYS$STARUTP:TCPIP$STARTUP, wait for it to pause and then do my dialup ) >in order for TCP/IP Services to startup.iI >Any ideas what I might do to ease the situation and have TCP/IP Servicesr$ >start as part of my system startup? >eE >Environment is a DEC 3000 model 600 workstation running OpenVMS v7.3nF >with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.1.  Dialup connection uses@ >PPP and the number is stored in the configuration on the modem. >e >Thanks in advance.i >Steve.   H [Based on your address, I'm assuming that the ISP in question is Demon.]  N My production machine is VMS Alpha 7.1, UCX 4.2, ECO 4. I used to use PPP/SLIPM dialup, but now use a ISDN LAN based router. I also have my alternate gateway I set to post.demon.co.uk, but I have never experienced the problem you area/ describing, either now or when I used SLIP/PPP.|  J I suspect that it is because I have a different routing setup. How are youG defining your route to Demon ? Are you using a default gateway, or just,L enabling specific routes ? Are your routes defined all the time or just when you need to dialup ?  N In my setup, routes are defined at the time of dialup and removed by the batchL job that initiated the dialup when the job has finished collecting E-Mail orH FTPing files. I do not use a default gateway, but only define routing toL the required subnets. If I want to web browse from this machine, I have LynxH setup to use Demon's proxy server, so I only need to set a subnet to the
 proxy server.u  M I think your problem may be that you have a route to Demon permanently setup,tH so startup hangs. If you can define the route only when you need to, the problem may go away.   Simon.  H PS: Be aware that the only time I have ever crashed a VMS box was when IH tried to get PPP working. I think that there are patches for the various problems that I uncovered.   -- i; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPgK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aiE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:17:32 +0100b% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>p! Subject: The Inquirer on VMS porte8 Message-ID: <u9c2mt483jfblbq7h2nq8g9n93ipuacfmb@4ax.com>  9 Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...o  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmb     Selected quote:   C "SOURCES TOLD the INQUIRER that public pronouncements about porting1B VMS and other software to the Itanium platform is far more complex than first appears.nE A former Digital engineer who specialised in the VMS operating systemtD said that Intel will need to port all relevant software products forD VMS as well as the core operating system, and that may be far harder than at first appears."e     -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 07:24:23 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)>% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portc3 Message-ID: <tIZWE4XLUijv@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <u9c2mt483jfblbq7h2nq8g9n93ipuacfmb@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > ; > Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...y > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmh >  >  > Selected quote:b > E > "SOURCES TOLD the INQUIRER that public pronouncements about portingeD > VMS and other software to the Itanium platform is far more complex > than first appears.-G > A former Digital engineer who specialised in the VMS operating systemiF > said that Intel will need to port all relevant software products forF > VMS as well as the core operating system, and that may be far harder > than at first appears."I  ? I saw nothing in the article that hasn't been discussed on this 
 newsgroup.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:28:38 -0300n) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br % Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portiL Message-ID: <OF1FFAEED2.92287405-ON03256A96.003EF068@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  @ It is time for a "Interested Company" to take OpenVMS/Alpha from
 Compaq/Intel.    Mayday, Mayday   ... - - - ...   Regardse   FC        J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) em 27/07/2001 09:24:23  E Favor responder a Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comm      % Assunto: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portc    C In article <u9c2mt483jfblbq7h2nq8g9n93ipuacfmb@4ax.com>, Alan Greig4 <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >o; > Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...u >s) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmn >. >  > Selected quote:  >xE > "SOURCES TOLD the INQUIRER that public pronouncements about porting-D > VMS and other software to the Itanium platform is far more complex > than first appears.cG > A former Digital engineer who specialised in the VMS operating system2F > said that Intel will need to port all relevant software products forF > VMS as well as the core operating system, and that may be far harder > than at first appears."1  ? I saw nothing in the article that hasn't been discussed on thiss
 newsgroup.   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jul 2001 12:24:24 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)n% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS porta' Message-ID: <9jrmho$a3q$1@joe.rice.edu>t  & Alan Greig (a.greig@virgin.net) wrote: :t; : Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...l :s) : http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmA :  : Selected quote:  :tE : "SOURCES TOLD the INQUIRER that public pronouncements about portingrD : VMS and other software to the Itanium platform is far more complex
 : [ snip ] :f   The "real" news from Compaq:  >    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6691350.html?tag=mn_hd$    AOL wins space on Compaq desktops*    By Reuters, July 26, 2001, 9:10 p.m. PT  ? which reinforces the perception of Compaq as only a PC company.   4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:08:47 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portO8 Message-ID: <aam2mtg0pe58snvnn4tg44nhjemg1hc90a@4ax.com>  @ On 27 Jul 2001 07:24:23 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:    @ >I saw nothing in the article that hasn't been discussed on this >newsgroup.e  A True but The Inquirer article and the attribution to a former VMSrF engineer gives it much more prominence. One would expect it to bring a Compaq response...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:04:00 -0400a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS port7L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2707011104000001@user-2ivec11.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <aam2mtg0pe58snvnn4tg44nhjemg1hc90a@4ax.com>, Alan Greiga <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote::  B > On 27 Jul 2001 07:24:23 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >  > B > >I saw nothing in the article that hasn't been discussed on this
 > >newsgroup.d > C > True but The Inquirer article and the attribution to a former VMS H > engineer gives it much more prominence. One would expect it to bring a > Compaq response...  G I assume the inquirer contacted one of the loud naysayers here, seekingnC material for an agenda piece.  When there's no hard news to report, G there's nothing like a bit of anonymous rumor to get things stirred up.    -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:29:16 GMTo2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portl1 Message-ID: <wFg87.240$Yx2.3715@news.cpqcorp.net>m  ` In article <u9c2mt483jfblbq7h2nq8g9n93ipuacfmb@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: :-: :Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...     I've forwarded the pointer.p  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:56:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portS, Message-ID: <3B61AB4B.8EFBF50B@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:t; > Anyone seen this yet? One wonders if Compaq will reply...m) > http://www.theinquirer.net/27070104.htmeE > "SOURCES TOLD the INQUIRER that public pronouncements about porting D > VMS and other software to the Itanium platform is far more complex > than first appears.   H Considering the total lack of information from Compaq about the port andI considering that the engineers have only now begun work, I think that thel* article is too premature to be beleivable.  K Since Oracle still has RDB as a product, it is quite likely that they stilli; have enough engineers to recompile RDB on the new IA64 VMS.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:45:11 -0700, From: dframeli@aus.telusa.com (Dale Frameli)@ Subject: UCX v3.0, How to "SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200"?= Message-ID: <de844d64.0107270845.4c53ec51@posting.google.com>c  E I have a DEC3000-300X which runs OpenVMS 1.5 and utilizes UCX 3.0.  Ii@ have created a "service" and have enabled it.  When I reboot theA system, the service is still there, but it is disabled.  In laters4 versions of UCX, you can type something similiar to:  ' UCX>SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200e  F to save the service state, and thus have it enabled when the system isA restarted.  In UCX v3.0, this command does not appear to exist :(o  D How can I enable a service after restart if I'm using UCX v3.0?  DueC to buget constrains, upgrading the operating system or UCX is not as possibility.   Thanks Dale dframeli@aus.telusa.com:   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 13:07:27 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)tD Subject: Re: UCX v3.0, How to "SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200"?3 Message-ID: <TKW8gwtXhDmo@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  = In article <de844d64.0107270845.4c53ec51@posting.google.com>,n2 dframeli@aus.telusa.company (Dale Frameli) writes:  G > I have a DEC3000-300X which runs OpenVMS 1.5 and utilizes UCX 3.0.  I>B > have created a "service" and have enabled it.  When I reboot theC > system, the service is still there, but it is disabled.  In latere6 > versions of UCX, you can type something similiar to: >r) > UCX>SET CONFIG ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200M  H > to save the service state, and thus have it enabled when the system isC > restarted.  In UCX v3.0, this command does not appear to exist :(   F > How can I enable a service after restart if I'm using UCX v3.0?  DueE > to buget constrains, upgrading the operating system or UCX is not ai > possibility.   Have you considered placing:  G $UCX ENABLE SERVICE FILSRV200 ! in the SYSTARTUP_VMS command file after  the UCX product is started?t   -Johnt Personal Opinion Onlye   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:07:00 -04005 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)A7 Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Hobby PAK license question/problem-3 Message-ID: <9jrp1k$dp8$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>t  - In article <3B601374.40726FF2@gsfc.nasa.gov>,-= Robert DiRosario  <robert.j.dirosario.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:.@ >>I've relicensed three times and every time it doesn't take it. >sK >I had the same problems on my M48.  You don't need the S/N for the license1L >to work.. If you look at the licenses, you'll notice they are DCL commands.J >Just type them in at the command line. I've had no problems entering themI >from the command line, but couldn't get them to work using the LMF menu.   ) Thank you... that was my problem exactly.i  A The fix for the problem was for me to take the license files fromi8 the Hobbyist program and burn 'em to cdrom as .com files  and just @license[123].com them.  % Once I figured out the mount options  E mount /over=id /media_format=cdrom /undefined_fat=stream:2048 dkb500:.  - I was set.  Motif Decwindows and EDT... YEAH.t  E Now to get DECnetPlus and TCP/IP up.,. and load the layered products.oG Basic, Pascal, C, Fortran...  VMS on Vax --that's a REAL Computer (tm).N   Bill -- t ---e>   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a >   villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 8   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:36:42 +0200i7 From: "Dijk, Jeroen van" <Jeroen.vanDijk@Getronics.com>g7 Subject: RE: VAX/VMS Hobby PAK license question/problems> Message-ID: <2795B75EF003D311801A00A0C906B511011C64CD@CUCEXEC>  E Personally I go for VMS on an Alpha, but if want to do it on a 32 bit0
 processor  must do as you like.  H Is there any one that want a VAX 6xxx. The company in work for has 3 for sale.s@ And also an alpha 8400. They are nice hobby machines, but ....         -----Original Message-----& From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) [mailto:pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org]C  Sent: vrijdag 27 juli 2001 15:07 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc7 Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Hobby PAK license question/problemm    - In article <3B601374.40726FF2@gsfc.nasa.gov>,,= Robert DiRosario  <robert.j.dirosario.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:V@ >>I've relicensed three times and every time it doesn't take it. >.K >I had the same problems on my M48.  You don't need the S/N for the licensecL >to work.. If you look at the licenses, you'll notice they are DCL commands.J >Just type them in at the command line. I've had no problems entering themI >from the command line, but couldn't get them to work using the LMF menu.o  ) Thank you... that was my problem exactly.c  A The fix for the problem was for me to take the license files frome8 the Hobbyist program and burn 'em to cdrom as .com files  and just @license[123].com them.  % Once I figured out the mount options oE mount /over=id /media_format=cdrom /undefined_fat=stream:2048 dkb500:   - I was set.  Motif Decwindows and EDT... YEAH.n  E Now to get DECnetPlus and TCP/IP up.,. and load the layered products.eG Basic, Pascal, C, Fortran...  VMS on Vax --that's a REAL Computer (tm).4   Bill -- r ---t>   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a >   villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 8   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:39:39 GMTf4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: VMS remains secure at DEFCON hacker fests: Message-ID: <fid87.224$n_3.416811@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B60D243.226118AC@fsi.net...A
 > eccm wrote:i > >pF > > Here are you to be finding a link to my "DEFCON9 report of sorts",* > > It's my story and I'm sticking to it.. > > ! > > http://www.vmsone.com/~opcom/  >m* > Hhmmm... VMSone - is that like Scortch-1 >   K I believe "Vemisone" is an ointment or foot cream or something like that...r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:55:54 -0300f+ From: <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>.) Subject: Re: Who does migration from VMS?eL Message-ID: <OFD5512BE7.6AFBE7BA-ON03256A96.0046F44C@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  J SAP does the same migration, using Connect:Direct to transfer  from Oracle RDBI* databases to a Solaris / Oracle  box .....    " Let's see if this will work fine !     Fabio-        B "Brian Catlin" <briancatlin@mindspring.com> em 26/07/2001 21:49:05  = Favor responder a "Brian Catlin" <briancatlin@mindspring.com>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comg      ) Assunto: Re: Who does migration from VMS?     B My company will "port" VMS drivers (or any BLISS code) to Windows.    -Briano   --, Brian Catlin, Sannas Consulting 310-798-8930B Windows NT/2000 Internals, WDM Device Driver Training & Consulting, See WWW.AZIUS.COM for courses and scheduling  / "Jay Braun" <lyngwyst@aol.com> wrote in messaged7 news:4ce97a1a.0107261344.3d8e0248@posting.google.com... 8 > I have been doing web searches for companies that do aH > migration/porting from VMS, primarily to UNIX/Linux.  I keep hitting aE > small group of companies whose primary business is selling products/B > that emulate VMS in UNIX/Linux and Windows NT/2000 environments.G > Aren't there firms that perform ports in such a way that the customere@ > doesn't have to keep relying on VMS constructs and proprietary > products for years to come?o >p > Jaye >o+ > p.s.  I love VMS.  Please don't flame me.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:03:37 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Who does migration from VMS?o: Message-ID: <JEd87.227$n_3.425331@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Jean Norton" <jean@staffing.com> wrote in message7 news:ml587.279634$lq1.62669680@typhoon.austin.rr.com....E > You might try Sector 7 at http://www.sector7.com  They specilize ini exactlyo > what you are asking about! >p
 > Jean Nortonb > jean@staffing.comr > OpenVMS Consultant  J And they've been doing it for more than a decade now. Their port of choice is RS6K/AIX.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:28:07 -0400e# From: Jim Agnew <Agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> ) Subject: Re: Who does migration from VMS?e+ Message-ID: <3B616C67.929D8C70@hsc.vcu.edu>   / Try Jim Jennis at jjennis@discovery.fuentez.comi  B they also speciallize in cross-migrating anything to anything.....   Jay Braun wrote:  8 > I have been doing web searches for companies that do aH > migration/porting from VMS, primarily to UNIX/Linux.  I keep hitting aE > small group of companies whose primary business is selling productsmB > that emulate VMS in UNIX/Linux and Windows NT/2000 environments.G > Aren't there firms that perform ports in such a way that the customera@ > doesn't have to keep relying on VMS constructs and proprietary > products for years to come?  >t > Jaya >p+ > p.s.  I love VMS.  Please don't flame me.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:59:37 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t$ Subject: Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll8 Message-ID: <9j72mts2jqhrr6l5fpjoq8pavbi5b3ge8h@4ax.com>  3 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:08:44 +0100, "Chris Townley" " <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> wrote:     >Not sure where you get this:p >u >$   show sys/noprocK >OpenVMS V7.3  on node ALPINI  27-JUL-2001 01:07:09.93  Uptime  61 05:59:21e >$ spawn/nolog/nosymb show statmG >  Status on  27-JUL-2001 01:07:18.04     Elapsed CPU :   0 00:00:00.02t  2 Your processor isn't fast enough, This on an ES40:   $ spawn/nosym sho stat( %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process SYSTEM_1 spawned: %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process SYSTEM_1A   Status on  27-JUL-2001 08:54:01.47     Elapsed CPU :17-NOV-1858d 00:00:00.00i   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:23:11 +0200y< From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com>$ Subject: Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll( Message-ID: <3B6132FF.10A15FDF@home.com>  : My AS1200/533 shows either "Elapsed CPU :   0 00:00:00.01"> or "Elapsed CPU :17-NOV-1858 00:00:00.00". Nice, I havn't seen this before :-)s   Jan-Erik Sderholm.e   Alan Greig wrote:q > 4 > Your processor isn't fast enough, This on an ES40: > [snip...]    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:46:00 GMTw From: danco@pebble.org ().$ Subject: Re: Zero Quadword Time Poll- Message-ID: <slrn9m3365.5ou.danco@pebble.org>n  . On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:47:24 GMT, Hoff Hoffman& <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote:  B > The following is a trial balloon, and NOT something that we have > immediate plans to change.   E I don't think you'll be able to get away with that.  That would break  a large body of user mode code.   t> That would break code that checks quadword date/time values to? determine if they're delta times or absolute date/times.  Deltae< times are negative quadword integers and absolute date/times are positive quadword integers.i  > "If date/time quadword < 0 then it's a delta time else it's an  absolute date/time" would break.   - Dan0   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.414 ************************