1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 28 Jul 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 416       Contents: Re: absolute beginner ! Advanced Server and virtual disks % Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks % Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks % Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks + Alpha PWs500au's 9GB 256MB only USD1175 !!! ( Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate Re: AlphaStation 200 fwupdate ! Re: benchmarking disk performance  Re: Compaq's Q2 financials Re: Compaq's Q2 financials Re: Compaq's Q2 financials Re: Creating TK50 images Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web]  Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web]  Re: CSA [was LPs on the Web] Re: CSA [was LPs on the Web]  Few People in DEC Understood.... Re: firmware for SCSI disks ??# IA64 running out of steam already?? ' Re: IA64 running out of steam already?? % Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominance : Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS): Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)P Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS MP Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS M  Re: My final take on the subject Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.  Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today. . Re: OPCOM messages sent outside the local nodeB Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS)3 Python for OpenVMS version 2.1.1-V001 now available   Re: SAN-based Backup for OpenVMS  Re: SAN-based Backup for OpenVMS$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ?$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ?$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ?$ Re: Selling VMS to another company ?" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base" Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base Re: The Inquirer on VMS port Re: VM: checking some myths.  Re: Who does migration from VMS?% Will the real DECNET (4) get ported ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 22:42:48 +0200  From: Cthulhu <noone@nowhere.it> Subject: Re: absolute beginner) Message-ID: <9jsjo8$21a$1@kadath.deep.it>   . Luca Balzano <luca.balzano@antispam.it> wrote:  I > OpenVMS. Somebody told me that since I live in Italy this could be more  > difficult.  F The problem here in Italy is that when DECUS disappeared, nothing went
 in its place. E So, we can't anymore register as a DECUS member, we can't get a DECUS " ID, we can't request Hobbist PAKs.   And that's bad. :(   	unregisteringly,  	   Cthulhu    --    H        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!$ 		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:07:26 +0930 % From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au> * Subject: Advanced Server and virtual disks* Message-ID: <3B626BB6.B7F84CBF@vsm.com.au>   Hi,   L I'm trying to configure Advanced Server 7.2 on OpenVMS Alpha 7.2-1 to use an ODS-5 *virtual* disk.   K The system has four physical drives (each 9GB) mounted as two shadow sets.  E Both shadow sets are formatted as ODS-2 as I don't entirely trust our J application software to work properly on ODS-5 (we haven't had a chance to test this yet).   I We want to use this machine as the primary file server for our PCs, so it M seemed like a sensible thing to set up an ODS-5 device for this purpose.  Not N having any spare physical drives, I decided the way to go would be to set up a@ virtual disk on one of the shadow sets and format that as ODS-5.  K So I loaded up the LDDRIVER package from the Freeware CD and prepared a 1GB 
 virtual disk:   L Disk $1$LDA1: (SLICKA), device type Foreign disk type 1, is online, mounted,$     file-oriented device, shareable.  K     Error count                0    Operations completed               1038 K     Owner process             ""    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM] K     Owner process ID    00000000    Dev Prot            S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W K     Reference count            1    Default buffer size                 512 K     Total blocks         2055240    Sectors per track                    32 K     Total cylinders         2008    Tracks per cylinder                  32       Allocation class           1  K     Volume label       "WINDOWS"    Relative volume number                0 K     Cluster size               3    Transaction count                     1 K     Free blocks          2024982    Maximum files allowed            256905 K     Extend quantity            5    Mount count                           1 K     Mount status          System    Cache name             "_DSA0:XQPCACHE" K     Extent cache size         64    Maximum blocks in extent cache   202498 K     File ID cache size        64    Blocks currently in extent cache      0 K     Quota cache size           0    Maximum buffers in FCP cache       1641 K     Volume owner UIC       [1,1]    Vol Prot    S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD   G   Volume Status:  ODS-5, subject to mount verification, file high-water  marking,!       write-back caching enabled.        Directory D2:[000000]   "     000000.DIR;1               1/3"     BACKUP.SYS;1               0/0"     BADBLK.SYS;1               0/0"     BADLOG.SYS;1               0/0$     BITMAP.SYS;1             169/171"     CONTIN.SYS;1               0/0"     CORIMG.SYS;1               0/0&     INDEXF.SYS;1            1085/30075"     SECURITY.SYS;1             1/6"     S_DRIVE.DIR;1              1/3"     VOLSET.SYS;1               0/0  )     Total of 11 files, 1257/30258 blocks.   J But when I try to create the corresponding file service I get a rather odd error:       SLICKA> admin 2     SIL\\SLICKA> add share/dir j_test d2:[s_drive]4     %PWRK-E-ERRADDSHARE, error adding share "J_TEST"A     -LM-E-NERR_UNKNOWNDEV, the device or directory does not exist        SIL\\SLICKA>  M I get the same error message if I substitute the real device name (_$1$LDA1:)  in place of D2:.  , Does Advanced Server not like virtual disks?$ Replies to me via email if possible.   Thanks,             Jeremy Begg   =   +---------------------------------------------------------+ =   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              | =   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  | =   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        | =   |---------------------------------------------------------| =   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au | =   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    | =   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      | =   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    | =   +---------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jul 2001 14:01:43 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) . Subject: Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks: Message-ID: <9jugk7$abs$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  * In message <3B626BB6.B7F84CBF@vsm.com.au>,)   Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au> writes: J >We want to use this machine as the primary file server for our PCs, so itN >seemed like a sensible thing to set up an ODS-5 device for this purpose.  NotO >having any spare physical drives, I decided the way to go would be to set up a A >virtual disk on one of the shadow sets and format that as ODS-5.   K I agree, Pathworks serving an ODS-5 volume causes fewer headaches than when 7 serving an ODS-2 volume.  Virtual disks work just fine.     K >But when I try to create the corresponding file service I get a rather odd  >error:  >  >    SLICKA> admin3 >    SIL\\SLICKA> add share/dir j_test d2:[s_drive] 5 >    %PWRK-E-ERRADDSHARE, error adding share "J_TEST" B >    -LM-E-NERR_UNKNOWNDEV, the device or directory does not exist >  >    SIL\\SLICKA>   E Did you synchronize the autoshares after you created the virtual disk K (admin set computer/autoshare_synchronize)?  Pathworks has this infuriating H restriction that it will only create a share on disks that have a hidden6 administrative share on the underlying volume as well.    < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet: L 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:03:35 -0400 3 From: "Brad McCusker" <Brad.McCuskerSP@Mcompaq.com> . Subject: Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks1 Message-ID: <nGz87.285$Yx2.3910@news.cpqcorp.net>   2 "Jeremy Begg" <jeremy@vsm.com.au> wrote in message$ news:3B626BB6.B7F84CBF@vsm.com.au... > Hi,  > K > I'm trying to configure Advanced Server 7.2 on OpenVMS Alpha 7.2-1 to use  an > ODS-5 *virtual* disk.  > / >> I decided the way to go would be to set up a B > virtual disk on one of the shadow sets and format that as ODS-5. > I > So I loaded up the LDDRIVER package from the Freeware CD and prepared a  1GB  > virtual disk:  >  > > L > But when I try to create the corresponding file service I get a rather odd > error: >  >     SLICKA> admin 4 >     SIL\\SLICKA> add share/dir j_test d2:[s_drive]6 >     %PWRK-E-ERRADDSHARE, error adding share "J_TEST"C >     -LM-E-NERR_UNKNOWNDEV, the device or directory does not exist  >  >     SIL\\SLICKA> > C > I get the same error message if I substitute the real device name  (_$1$LDA1:)  > in place of D2:. > . > Does Advanced Server not like virtual disks?  L I have no idea if it likes virtual disks or not.  I can tell you that I have@ not tested them, and I'm certain they are not part of the formalF qualification process.  That all being said, I have a few suggestions:  9 1. Did you restart the server after you created the disk? K 2. Did you try messing with the AUTOSHARE and NOAUTOSHARE registry entries? ' Restart server after messing with them? K 3. Can you do any ADMIN commands to that drive (ADMIN SHO FILE/PERM....etc) J 4. Can you point the NT Server Manager at your server and create the shareH that way (this will tell us if its ADMIN or the file server that doesn't like the drive) ? 4. If its still failing for you, get us some debug from ADMIN - K     SIL\\SLICKA> DEBUG LOG /EVENTS=(APIDATA,CLI,CMDSTA,INFO)/LOG=FOOBAR.LOG -     SIL\\SLICKA> execute the failing commands      SIL\\SLICKA> EXIT I     then send or post the FOOBAR.TXT file.  Actually, take a look at that J file, it might give you some hints to the problem, or then again, it mightH not.  If the DEBUG command gives you a hard time, do ADMIN DEBUG HELP toH learn more about it, and determine what is wrong with what I told you to type.    --( The opinions expressed herein are my own' and do not reflect those of my employer  or anyone else.    Brad   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:49:18 GMT  From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com . Subject: Re: Advanced Server and virtual disks8 Message-ID: <3rq5mt0ms0k27cr3v3otmn4a5t6d45v1lv@4ax.com>  C On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:07:26 +0930, Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>  wrote:  L >So I loaded up the LDDRIVER package from the Freeware CD and prepared a 1GB >virtual disk: > N >I get the same error message if I substitute the real device name (_$1$LDA1:) >in place of D2:.  > - >Does Advanced Server not like virtual disks? % >Replies to me via email if possible.   = I'd been running AS for a long time now, with virtual disks,    indeed all/most of them virtual.  @ Albeit w/ the Glenn Everhart's VDA version, rather than the LDA : from the freeware disk.   But I doubt this is significant.  C B. McCusker/D.Jones already laid out the things you should look at;   F wrt AS, the autosync is the only one I remember tinkering with, wrt toF bringing a new vdisk volume online.  after which,  you at least should? be able to access them via a hidden share-name, $<volume-label>    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:11:02 -0400 9 From: "D.B. Turner, islandco.com" <dbturner@islandco.com> 4 Subject: Alpha PWs500au's 9GB 256MB only USD1175 !!!/ Message-ID: <tm5e1rq9mu4m64@news.supernews.com>   $ go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha's & Alpha Parts  http://www.islandco.com  sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.  2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0096    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 02:11:08 -0230 + From: Mary Rogers <mary001@nf.sympatico.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Alpha:  an invitation to communicate / Message-ID: <3B6393E4.4FE22B1C@nf.sympatico.ca>   R Hello Can Anyone Tell Me About The New Virus Called "w32.sircam.worm@mm"      This* one Infected My C:\windows\system\scam.exeN and I think i fixed the file but had to delete it and now at times i cant openM certain programs with out getting this Message system needs File "SirC32.exe"      Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  > Q > > Microsoft is intent on shoving that software down the throaths of every large N > > corporation. Microsoft's now confirmed and tolerated monopoly status meansL > > that the odds of Microsoft eventually succeeding is pushing NT into true) > > enterprise solutions are pretty good.  > O > There are still two parties to a purchase. Your model surmises that Microsoft O > actually attains monopoly status in the enterprise computing field. The signs O > I currently see is that that is not going to occur - not with its current set P > of software offerings. In the past two years or so, decision makers seem to beM > waking up to the fact that Windows <whatever> cannot deliver in this field, P > and that any alternative will is better. Thus, Compaq is continuing to destroy > itself in this market. > 
 >         Jan    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:11:28 +0200 4 From: "Robert Schmoelzer" <robert.schmoelzer@aon.at>& Subject: Re: AlphaStation 200 fwupdateG Message-ID: <3b628225$0$10810$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>    Hi all, ! I did the same upgrade yesterday.   The result is the same as yours.3 Especially the multiple "show" entries are at least  curious.- On the other hand i did have no problems with / installing RedHat 7.1 after the upgrade(besides , the fact that the RRD43 CDROM could not read
 my CD-RWs)   have fun Robert  = "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag " news:3B58A480.45B75B9C@osfn.org...E > I have updated the firmware on an AlphaStation 200 4/166 to install H > OpenVMS 7.2  (I believe that the 5.3 Update CD / V7.0 SRM is required)@ > After flashing the new firmware the help command displays info  > differently from the original. > 	 > Before:  > 	 > >>>help  > [start of help deleted...]5 > show cluster show config show map show memory sleep # > start stop true add_fax add_sound  > >>>  >  > After: > 	 > >>>help  > [...]  > show show show show show > show sleep start stop true > update > >>>  > F > Note that the "show" commands do not include the parameters (config," > etc.) and that add_* is missing. > ) > Is there a problem?  Or is this normal?  > G > BTW, I did read the release notes and follow the special instructions # > for updating from a "pre-v3.4 CD" < > The Update did not show any errors and Verify reported ok. >  > -mikeu >  >  > Original firmware: > ( > X5.0-29, built Jul 18 1995 at 16:20:48 > 
 > Firmware > SRM Console: X5.0-29 > ARC Console: 4.37 6 > PALcode: VMS PALcode X5.48-107, OSF PALcode X1.35-76 > Serial ROM: V4.6 > Diag ROM: V1.6 >  > New firmware:  > ' > V7.0-9, built Mar 18 1999 at 13:41:11  > 
 > Firmware > SRM Console: V7.0-9  > ARC Console: 4.58 2 > PALcode: VMS PALcode 5.56-2, OSF PALcode X1.46-2 > Serial ROM: V4.6 > Diag ROM: V1.6   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:00:01 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>* Subject: Re: benchmarking disk performance) Message-ID: <3B62C60D.392EA6FE@wi.rr.com>   G Fortel's Sightline can produce some very nice IO performance numbers on  7.2-1.   -Scott   Kenneth wrote:  H > Is there any tools for benchmarking the disk performance in VMS 7.2-1?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:03:58 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net># Subject: Re: Compaq's Q2 financials D Message-ID: <i6w87.3241$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9jnjfm$dr8$1@pyrite.mv.net...I > If you're referring to the supposed bundle of cash Intel was willing toa ponyG > up, I seriously doubt that it's reflected in the Q2 numbers (since itc woulduL > have made a major impact).  And of course given that the announcement cameE > less than a week before the close of the quarter, the impact of anye customerI > reaction is presumably also absent.  But IIRC it was said here that thed $493L > million restructuring charge did include some of the employees affected by > the Alpha cancellation.b  K I doubt that Intel will pay any big chunk of cash.  Maybe smaller bits here-K and there, but those will be smaller than the amount that compaq pays intele
 for chips.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:04:03 GMTf. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net># Subject: Re: Compaq's Q2 financials>D Message-ID: <n6w87.3243$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  3 "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messaged$ news:3B605138.2340F42A@dplanet.ch...J > The catch is of course that laying off the entire PC division would costH > an absolute fortune in retrenchments, broken contracts with suppliers,E > buildings no longer required etc, etc, etc.  The total losses woulds6 > probably be far greater than what we are seeing now. >d > It looks like ... H > Compaq's PC division - can't afford to live with them, can't afford to > live without them !   F If only Alpha manufacturing had been outsourced - then Compaq would beJ commited to paying for a certain minimum number of Alpha systems and would+ have been forced to continue selling Alpha.n  K Instead, Compaq has contracts that call for Compaq buying a fixed number oft9 PCs that are too expensive for current market conditions.h  H Gee, this sounds so familar.  I thought the DEC VP who did that resignedJ years ago after stuffing the channels.  Did he resurface at Compaq withoutI me noticing?  Or did DEC discover the flaw in Compaq's tactics but Compaq.7 was too arrogant to recognize that it was a bad tactic?    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:04:09 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net># Subject: Re: Compaq's Q2 financialsnD Message-ID: <t6w87.3244$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  - "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote in messagee2 news:8nn1mtk4htsbuldqrjfk29bnb7tvb911at@4ax.com...= > Just FYI:  We do a *lot* of SAN implementations in strictlytB > "industry-standard" server environments.  When folks have dozensA > (sometimes hundreds) of Windows servers, they like SANs to helpd > consolidate the storage.  G Find some former coworkers who work for some of the companies that sell4I software and hardware with storage and ask them what they think of CompaqrL storage.  I'm quite certain that the first thing they'll mention is how over
 priced it is.p  J At least EMC recognized that they were too expensive and bought DG for theK Clarion Fiber Channel storage business.  Don't know what Compaq is going toe do to become more competitive.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jul 2001 22:39:18 +0200  From: Cthulhu <noone@nowhere.it>! Subject: Re: Creating TK50 imagesl) Message-ID: <9jsjhm$216$1@kadath.deep.it>a  ! Cthulhu <cthulhu@rlyeh.it> wrote:   H > the right way to generate an image of a TK50 (wich I suppose is calledG > MUA0:), being able to restore it stright onto another TK50 elsewhere?o   As usual, thanks to all.    C All I have to do now is just to sort out all solutions and find the  best fitting. :)  
 	analizingly,a
 	  Cthulhu -- e  H        Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu http://www.rlyeh.it/ wgah'nagl fhtgan!$ 		     <cthulhu (at) rlyeh (dot) it>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:26:55 +0800M- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@BIGPOND.COM>@& Subject: Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web]A Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728162503.00a356e0@mail.bigpond.com>   @ At 10:50 AM 27/07/01 +0000, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:E >In article <3B60A9A0.28541.10D0D76A@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" 2 ><stan@stanq.com> writes:-. > >On 26 Jul 2001, at 3:01, John Santos wrote:L > >> Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youJ > >> can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yearK > >> plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year.  Says1 > >> one VMS kit + 4 LP kits for about $100 each.s > >e= > >Actually, joining CSA is $600 per year.  Assuming that thenH > >distribution subscriptions are $500 per year for CSA members, joining > >would make sense. > >eG > >Unfortunately, I've received no response to my email to Compaq about.C > >the cost of the distribution subscriptions for CSA members, so Iw > >don't know if I should join.  >oE >John may have been wrong about the yearly fee for CSA membership butsB >the fee for the SDK is about $500/year ($495/year to be precise).  @ I am in the process of registering our company for the local CSAF program (Australia) and the registration is $0 and the SDK cost is $0.   >--u+ >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: e& >AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > K >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fierywK >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesi     Regards, Dave.t -- oI David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.comlI Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/.I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:58:45 -0500a1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> & Subject: Re: CSA  [was LPs on the Web]' Message-ID: <3B62FD55.6C7F4DAA@fsi.net>e   David B Sneddon wrote: > B > At 10:50 AM 27/07/01 +0000, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:F > >In article <3B60A9A0.28541.10D0D76A@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" > ><stan@stanq.com> writes:-0 > > >On 26 Jul 2001, at 3:01, John Santos wrote:N > > >> Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youL > > >> can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yearM > > >> plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year.  Sayi3 > > >> one VMS kit + 4 LP kits for about $100 each.  > > >n? > > >Actually, joining CSA is $600 per year.  Assuming that theoJ > > >distribution subscriptions are $500 per year for CSA members, joining > > >would make sense. > > >oI > > >Unfortunately, I've received no response to my email to Compaq about E > > >the cost of the distribution subscriptions for CSA members, so Ih! > > >don't know if I should join.e > >mG > >John may have been wrong about the yearly fee for CSA membership butlD > >the fee for the SDK is about $500/year ($495/year to be precise). > B > I am in the process of registering our company for the local CSAH > program (Australia) and the registration is $0 and the SDK cost is $0.  < Can I sign up through your guy, even though I'm in the U.S.?   -- 2 David J. Dachterae dba DJE SystemsX http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/1  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:15:52 GMT>= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)C% Subject: Re: CSA [was LPs on the Web]g0 Message-ID: <009FFABD.99409B00@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Y In article <1010727150831.16443A-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:  {...snip...} >> --uR >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>            M >>   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery 5L >>   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes > E >Where is Bill Watterson when we need him?  I blame Garry Trudeau forpB >starting this slippery slope that cartoonists are allowed to take; >extended vacations and then retire when they feel like it.b  G I take out the C&H books every now and then when I need a little fix.  w8 I usually wind up reading from cover to cover when I do.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            dJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:04:45 -0400e  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>% Subject: Re: CSA [was LPs on the Web] 6 Message-ID: <1010728125929.16443A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  + On Sat, 28 Jul 2001, David B Sneddon wrote:   B > At 10:50 AM 27/07/01 +0000, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:G > >In article <3B60A9A0.28541.10D0D76A@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" H > ><stan@stanq.com> writes:e0 > > >On 26 Jul 2001, at 3:01, John Santos wrote:N > > >> Hmmm.  If you are eligible and can join CSA (~$100-$150/year), then youL > > >> can get the VMS and/or Tru64 CD distributions (LP+DOCs 4 times a yearM > > >> plus current O/S kit + any new O/S releases) for about $500/year.  Say 3 > > >> one VMS kit + 4 LP kits for about $100 each.S > > >n? > > >Actually, joining CSA is $600 per year.  Assuming that the J > > >distribution subscriptions are $500 per year for CSA members, joining > > >would make sense. > > >eI > > >Unfortunately, I've received no response to my email to Compaq abouteE > > >the cost of the distribution subscriptions for CSA members, so Ie! > > >don't know if I should join.  > >iG > >John may have been wrong about the yearly fee for CSA membership but)D > >the fee for the SDK is about $500/year ($495/year to be precise). > B > I am in the process of registering our company for the local CSAH > program (Australia) and the registration is $0 and the SDK cost is $0.  @ That's cheaper than I remember.  Are those Australian dollars or US dollars?.  @ [After much internal debate, :-), just to save embarrassment for anyone who doesn't get it...]i   > >--s- > >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: i( > >AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > >DM > >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fieryhM > >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesw >  > 
 > Regards, > Dave.h > -- aK > David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com-K > Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/@K > DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmBK > "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon  >  >  >    -- 2 John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:03:44 GMTf* From: "David Cressey" <david@dcressey.com>) Subject: Few People in DEC Understood.... 4 Message-ID: <QKy87.43$Iw2.1733@petpeeve.ziplink.net>  K This is a tangent off of the Ken Olsen and history thread, which itself was 
 a tangent.  H There are a lot of products that DEC made about which people in DEC saidH "few people in DEC understood how good, important, powerful, and elegantE this product was".  Or maybe "few people understood what it was for".l- All-in-one was mentioned in the other thread.   5 Here's a list of products I've heard that said about:S  
 All-in-one Rdb  ACMS The Common Data dictionary
 Datatrieve  F I don't necessarily agree with the everything in the above list.  It'sL probably the case that there are lots of Products that *I* didn't understand/ the importance of until it was very, very late.   I Can you add to the above list?  Can you put some hardware products on thee list?n  K Can you comment on WHY a company like DEC seemed so often to be at war with K itself?  Did this phenomenon carry over into Compaq or is there a different  culture over there?s  G Was the VAX information architecture really an architecture or was it a E hodgepodge of products that had been ideated and realized separately?            -- Regards,     David Cresseya     www.dcressey.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:07:12 GMT  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>' Subject: Re: firmware for SCSI disks ?? ' Message-ID: <3B627272.5B20CE4F@home.nl>   
 Thanks David,a  O I know they are not the same drives, but both drives are marked as  DS-RZ1EF-VW K on the SBB container. I noticed the difference when I was filling two BA370cO boxes with 44 DS-RZ1EF containers and found that they showed up as  RZ1EF-CB orfP RZ2EA-AL on the HSZ70. The only way to distinguish both versions is to check theL serial number on the container. The RZ1EF types have serial numbers startingN with NI, the RZ2EA types start with 2G. But having two different types did notO cause me real problems, because I was able to arrange them in such a way that I 3 have raid sets of strictly RZ1EF or strictly RZ2EA.A  M But I also noticed I have two different firmware revisions on the RZ1EF, so ISN would like to upgrade all drives to the latest firmware revision. In this caseJ two different version of course, one for the RZ1EF, and one for the RZ2EA.     Regards,   Dirk    " "D.B. Turner, islandco.com" wrote:   > These are NOT the same drives  > J > The RZ1EF-CB is the DS-RZ1EF-VW - an IBM 1.6" Drive (IBM DGHS 18Y) Ultra > Wide >LJ > The RZ2EL-AL is a Low profile Fujitsu/Seagate disk and is Ultra2 (LVD) - > obviously a much newer drive >JJ > You cannot match the firmware - the best thing to do is find a VERY niceH > Dealer (like ourselves) who might swap one type of drive for the otherI > The DS-RZ1EA-VW are actually  a "tad"cheaper than the DS-RZ1EF-VW's FYIk >i. > So we may be interested in helping you out ! >  > David  >  > -- > David Turner >  > We sell Alpha's & Alpha Parts- > http://www.islandco.com  > sales@islandco.com > Island Computers US Corp.  > 2700 Gregory Street  > Savannah GA 31404v > Tel: 912 447 6622  > Fax: 912 201 0096O >VM > Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3B61BFFC.4F7E927D@home.nl...-K > > I got the version numbers wrong. They are DS-RZ1EF-VW on the container,e > andcC > > the actual disks show up as RZ1EF-CB and RZ2EA-AL on the HSZ70.  > >  > > Dirk Munk wrote: > >-M > > > Can anyone give me a URL where to find firmware for Digital/Compaq SCSI  > > > disks ?. > > >-N > > > I am building new raid sets etc. and would like to have all disks at the > > > same firmware level. > > >0M > > > I noticed that there are 2 versions of the DS-RZ1EA-VW 18.2 GB/7200 rpmnN > > > drives. The HSZ raid controller tells me that one type is RZ1... and the@ > > > other is a RZ2EL version. The RZ2 is much faster it seems. > > >r7 > > > Has anyone more information about both versions ?  > > >m > > > Regards, > > > 
 > > > Dirk > >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:21:28 -0400h' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>d, Subject: IA64 running out of steam already??( Message-ID: <9jtp78$893$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J This isn't meant to start a thread here, but for people interested in this8 topic comp.arch has a discussion going under this title.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:08:25 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n0 Subject: Re: IA64 running out of steam already??, Message-ID: <3B62F189.41F15447@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote: > L > This isn't meant to start a thread here, but for people interested in this: > topic comp.arch has a discussion going under this title.  M If Intel was able to take the 8086 game controller and turn it into somethingiN in the same league as the fancy 64 bit Alpha, then they should be able to takeL the IA64 and do the same, especially now that they are hiring all the ex DECI engineers and have the full right to copy the techniques that the DigitalR engineers had developped.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:05:10 GMTB. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>. Subject: Re: IA64 volume and low-end dominanceD Message-ID: <q7w87.3248$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  < "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message$ news:9ibj2h$9nt$1@lisa.gemair.com...A >   What really drove the move from IA16 to IA32 was not customert= >   demand for faster systems, but rather customer demand for B >   the new system software (Windows386, OS/2, Unix) that required> >   IA32.  This is what will drive the move from IA32 to IA64.  ; What software exactly was it that drove the demand for 386?b  K Windows 3.0 only used the memory management of the 386 to provide access to-J more memory to run 16 bit code; this was just a cheaper solution than someK of the earlier memory expansion kludges that had been available previously.:   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:05:37 GMTC. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)jD Message-ID: <RCs87.2456$bl1.382617@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  - "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote in messager2 news:r2n1mtk3aud0pag34hg4jvlpdts63hqk1f@4ax.com...D > Actually, unless you're talking about some kind of console loggingD > system (a la Polycenter Console Manager), the Remote Insight BoardG > Lights Out Edition provides a really nice remote graphics console forP
 > servers. >nF > Now, granted it doesn't perform a nicely as a character-cell consoleG > since it's throwing all those graphics around... but it's not too bado > to work with.f   You got it to work????  K What did you do, use Windows 4.0?  With win2k, RIB was very unreliable whennL I last tried to use it, circa March 2001.  It would work one minute and thenK not the next.  We were trying to use it with the SAN applicance.  The firstsK step was to discard the (released/shipping) RIB module.  Then the next stepiH was to discard the SAN Applicance and just connect the net storage array* controller to VCS systems via serial port.  G Don't you have to connect a second PC to the serial "printer" port of a-$ Windows system to debug it a la SDA?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:13:11 GMTe. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)sD Message-ID: <XJs87.2472$bl1.385790@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:YEd87.218$Yx2.3558@news.cpqcorp.net...eI > Dual booting different architectures from the same disk has long been aw > non-goal.e  K Booting is not the issue.  Mounting the disk is the issue.  And initing it.w And backing up.o  L I've got a million dollar tape library with an interface and software for myJ Alpha and no support on IA64.  So I'm going to backup disks mounted on theL IA64 system from the Alpha system which requires that they by mounted on the> Alpha system.  And I probably want to backup the system disks.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:20:14 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) D Message-ID: <yQs87.2772$0w3.381856@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:cGd87.219$Yx2.3392@news.cpqcorp.net...iB > As a note, many new large server systems are being designed with7 > "virtualized" consoles that talk over a LAN protocol.e  F The console connection is virtualized over the lan, but the console is+ serial and connected to the Alpha cpu chip.   H By the way, every network switch, router, hub, whatever, that I've dealtJ with in the past 5 years have all had serial ports that you have to use toH do at least the initial setup.  Most network managers connect them up to2 terminal servers so they can be accessed remotely.  J 10 years ago, most of the network widgets I dealt with DID NOT have serialK ports.  As network widgets got more complicated and cheaper, the management4G software couldn't be given away for free, the quality of the management I software suffered, yet the need to configure the widgets became much morei important - no plug and play.0   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:24:47 GMTD. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)4D Message-ID: <PUs87.2491$bl1.385803@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message5+ news:C8e87.226$Yx2.3607@news.cpqcorp.net...dG >   That said, at least for puposes of the OpenVMS system debug and foriG >   the sorts of remote console access used within OpenVMS engineering, H >   we will have to get the serial console connections working.  We willF >   also have to have a mechanism to force a system crash.  Now as forD >   what will be formally supported, please see previous comments...  H Hey, M$ doesn't provide anyway to collect information when it crashes orF hangs, so why should Compaq, the PC company, OpenVMS be any different.K Users will have no trouble with writing down the numbers on the blue screeno and then power cycling...p   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:29:28 GMTo. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)mD Message-ID: <cZs87.2787$0w3.384261@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBGDBAA.tom@kednos.com...rJ > Who cares, all you need is a small partition to accomplish the bootstrap and  > onceJ > completed you don't see it any longer, so you lost a few sectors.  Its a > means, not an end.  J No, its a kludge.  A crock.  A hack - no I take that back its too horrible to be called a hack.  K Hey, we're making a fresh start so we're going to update to a truely modernnK architecture: FAT32, secure in the fact that none of the operatings will dotJ anything more with it than to use it to store a reasonable program loader.  D The boot block which has an LBN and length is elegant in comparison.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:31:01 GMTr. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS) D Message-ID: <F_s87.2793$0w3.383603@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B61A5E1.7F278D44@videotron.ca...D > What Fred seems to be saying is that the console on IA64 will have
 sufficientI > knowledge of the NT file system to parse file system structures to findd theb > data it needs to read.  K No, FAT32 isn't the NT file system - FAT32 is the DOS filesystem kludged toe$ have 32 bit instead of 16 bit cells.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:49:11 GMTe. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)iD Message-ID: <Hft87.2826$0w3.389484@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:kqj87.270$Yx2.3813@news.cpqcorp.net...iI > Sigh.  The disk is still a PURE ODS2/5 volume to all VMS software.  VMSm hasoG > TOTAL control over the whole disk drive.  There will be a FILE on then disk,tH > that in reality will contain a FAT32 partition, for anything (like theE > console) that wants to use the data in the file.  The bootblock, ifo anythingI > OTHER than the console cares about it, will simply be a new format, and  BTW0+ > that format turns out to be a MBR record.R  K Hmmm, I think that file is called [0,0]INDEXF.SYS, but if its an MBR recordsG than it will point to a partition which is a file which will have to be.J placed according to the rules for partitions.  Basically, all the programsK that know about the boot block format and the specifics of the pointer to aaI file which happens to be VMB or APB will have to be modified to deal withpE that.  I guess we end up digging up and updating writeboot.exe again.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jul 2001 08:08:28 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) C Subject: Re: IPF Console Bootstrap (was: Re: No chance for OpenVMS)a3 Message-ID: <MRC2E9iuFqlC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   u In article <XJs87.2472$bl1.385790@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:nB > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- > news:YEd87.218$Yx2.3558@news.cpqcorp.net...dJ >> Dual booting different architectures from the same disk has long been a >> non-goal. > M > Booting is not the issue.  Mounting the disk is the issue.  And initing it.- > And backing up.2  4 I don't see how mounting and backing up is an issue.  H If you initialize with an older version of VMS from another architectureG the boot information might be wiped out, as it was in the early days of  Alpha.  @ But mounting and backing up rely on the scheme designed for ODS,= with a home block and alternate home block that are decidedly"? _not_ block zero (and thus do not conflict with the boot schemeo of Alpha or IA64 machines)..  > The scheme Fred has outlined is conceptually no different that@ those that put ODS-2 and ISO 9960 on the same CD.  Hopefully hisA execution will be a little more robust than certain documentationoB CDs distributed in the past, but that problem is no different from6 trusting VMS Development not to deliver ASTs at IPL 0.  @ The only regard in which Fred is wrong-headed is in not choosingB ISO 9960 over FAT, but that's ok because we need something to beat him up about over the years :-)e   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jul 2001 17:37:57 GMT0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)Y Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS Mr5 Message-ID: <9jut9l$q3h$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>5  5 In article <3B61FD4A.A59479E@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>,c3 Steve Reece  <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> wrote:rI : Although I fundamentally agree with Frank, a few there are a few thingstG : that PC mail packages have managed to get right that VMS mail in both.= : its command line and DECW interfaces could be improved in :tB : - maintaining an address book rather than relying upon logicals,? : distribution files, remembering addresses or doing REPLYs to;CE : - being able to do a REPLY/ALL/EDIT/EXTRACT to reply to a number ofr/ : people at once without typing their names in.i : J My point about PC-based mail (I thought it was obvious) is that, no matterJ what its avantages -- address books, attachments, etc -- its main functionJ in real life is to receive and spread viruses, something that just doesn't( happen with host-based text-mode e-mail.  H Of course host-based text-mode email packages can have any features you I want except for multimedia, and many of them do, going back to the 1970s.nE A good example is the DEC-20 MM program, which was productized by DEC-J as MS.  I still use MM to this day -- there is nothing I've ever wanted itE to do that it didn't already do, with just a couple minor exceptions.   F We liked DEC-20 MM so much that when DEC-20s were on their way out, weK re-did it in C and use it to this day on Unix.  At one time I believe therer was a VMS port.o  ,   http://www.columbia.edu/acis/email/mm.home   - Franko   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:23:56 -0400u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>iY Subject: Re: Ken Olsen (and DEC History), was: Re: Escape sequences not filtered in VMS M', Message-ID: <3B625A70.B6D08EA8@videotron.ca>   mulp wrote:mJ > a tailored "gui" interface before the IBM PC existed.  Few people in VMSF > understood what all-in-1 was, a framework for providing a customizedM > environment for non-computer users in an office environment, and obviously,a" > mail was a critical application.  N Had they standardized on a full fledged mail product for VMS and integrated itL with VMS distribution instead of MAIL, it would have caused serious problemsF when Bobby Palmer started to clean Bill Gate's lower digestive system.  L Palmer cannabalised Digital's  mail products in exchange for introducing hisK tongue even deeper into Gates. Had a full fledged email system been part of N VMS and continued Digital's leaderhsip in email (which it had in the 1980s andM early 1990s), Palmer may have had to take more drastic actions against VMS ine! order to get Bill Gate's support.I  G The fact that VMS had become irrelevant in messaging made it easier for D Microsoft to tolerate VMS's continued existance since Digital had no; intentions of pushing its own products against Microsoft's.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:55:27 GMTt& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>) Subject: Re: My final take on the subjecth; Message-ID: <3Dy87.107036$l%.13213933@typhoon2.gnilink.net>r  > > It is foolishness to steer people away from your high marginA > product.  Yes, folks are going to go there (NT) but encouraging C > that is silly as IBM full well knows, and others have recognized.a; > Pick up *all* the needed revenues in servicing NT whether / > hardware or software support?  Bwah-ha-ha-ha.r  K I continue to see this foolishness in this newsgroup also that Compaq wantsrI to steer folks from its high margin products to Windows.  If Compaq movesRJ its customers anywhere from OpenVMS it would be to Tru64.  Compaq has comeJ to the same conclusion IBM and HP have - the enterprise world is not goingI to Windows anytime in the future.  If OpenVMS users are moved anywhere itZK would be to Tru64.  As one who has been closely following the announcementslG from Compaq over the last 6 months it appears to this observer that thegI heart of their strategy will be Tru64.  The camp that was "the enterprisepD world will be  moving to Windows" died the death of market share notI materializing with Windows 2000 like it was suppose to.  Tru64 clusteringuL has been significantly enhanced and Tru64 is being ZLE enabled.  IMO OpenVMSK and NSK users should keep a close eye on Tru64 and not worry about a forcedUJ march to Windows - it just makes no business or technical sense for CompaqG to force its users over to Windows.  Windows is all forms is becoming ae nasty low margin business...  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:42Xx+tOXD4eT@eisner.encompasserve.org...s7 > In article <3B55B0CB.AF39A560@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei & <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > Patrick Young wrote:F > >> OTOH, if as many here seem to fear, written, or implied, down theJ > >> track Compaq decide OpenVMS and Tru-64 go the way of the Alpha then II > >> will _personally_ see to it our workplace never buys a single Compaq  > >> product again.. > >7I > > But what if Compaq, through its new software/support growth plan, hasZ theaK > > solutions that will allow you to migrate away from VMS to NT and Compaq  has ! > > the best available solution ?u > >h >r? > Ummmm... because Dell will actually have the best solution as-E > everyone is chasing margin curves that Dell is setting.  The theoryrA > in Q4 2000 was that Dell wasn't about to maintain their _lower_fH > margins, that sooner or later their strategy of garnering market shareH > would have to change as they were "sacrificing margins at the altar of/ > market share" and that can't last, yada yada.  >iD > However, two quarters later and they are still at it and MD let itD > be known he wasn't about to "let up."  So if you think that CompaqF > or HP or IBM senior management thinks this NT thing is a good thing,F > you haven't been paying attention.  IBM early on "saw" the folly andI > is pumping $1 billion into Linux in the hopes to attract cross-platformnF > developers to maintain application availabilty.  Not in a sustainingB > fashion but in a growth-minded fashion for their core Datacenter > OSes (OS/390, OS/400, AIX).b >b> > It is foolishness to steer people away from your high marginA > product.  Yes, folks are going to go there (NT) but encouraging C > that is silly as IBM full well knows, and others have recognized.-; > Pick up *all* the needed revenues in servicing NT whetherM/ > hardware or software support?  Bwah-ha-ha-ha.> >u > RobR >I   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:38:04 GMTr. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.D Message-ID: <wZt87.2632$bl1.408574@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  C "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" <scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in message,$ news:9js8p0$o2$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov...E > Has any of the VMS developers named a hardware architecture feature2 requiredL > by VMS that cannot be in the future version of Itanium planned to run VMS?  J The plan is to use the existing implementations of IA64, not a future one.I And so far, the assumption is that some sort of kludge will solve all thejK problems caused by the kludgy, sorry, commitee designed, IA64 architecture.tC (Its hard to understand how IA64 could define such a complex memory K protection scheme that fails to encompass the smaller set of modes that VMSnL needs - Alpha supports far more modes than VMS needs and more than IA64 doesE with a simpler design.)  And there is the issue of making things like K insque, etc., work.  My take is that the obvious solution is to replace thedK SAL code - my bet is that will be the ultimate solution, unless performancen' isn't a factor for VMS implementations.o  J > > He said: "ACMS is something like CICS, still owned by DEC/Q, but not a< > trivial thing. Does Q still have engineers to support it?"I > What does that have to do with Itanium? If they don't have engineers tosK > support it, it isn't viable even VMS remains on Alpha. (I'll overlook thef > comparison with CICS.)  L It is reasonable to support it with a set of engineers sufficient to supportK a mature product on two mature hardware platforms.  The number of engineersnK can easily triple or more to do the port and qual work, especially when thesI hardware and software platforms are not mature, the compilers, libraries,eB debuggers, etc. are not mature, and it requires expanding the testK environment to verify/qualify the entire system (hardware, software, tools)n and tune it.  K I don't know if ACMS is outsourced or not.  If Compaq engineers are working-A on it, then I'm sure they are going to find their headcount cut -eI programmers are programmers just like burger flippers are burger flippersBL (the HR VP came from Burger King) so warm bodies can be contracted to do the job when its required.   >.J > > He said a "mass" of so-called layered products, were sold overnight toK > some third parties, and he wondered how many of those firms still supporttJ > old versions of that software. "How many of them do still have engineers whoeK > know VMS? How many of these companies still have a VMS system," he asked.e >tK > What does old version support have to do with Itanium? Selling POLYCENTERn toL > CA might be considered a mistake, but those were hardly critical products,L > and if a company no longer has a VMS system, its non-support of Itanium is5 > no different from its non-support of Alpha and VAX.- >-K How about DECset - no Compaq engineers work on any of those tools.  DECnet,<C the IBM connectivity products, la dee la.  Lots of that stuff is in(H maintenance mode with fixed expense budgets - if the problem reports are6 below a certain level than new features will be added.  K > They did it when they moved from VAX to Alpha, and they do it when movingn toL > new Alpha generations. It's not fun, but proper testing and integration ofL > new systems is part of running a business. It has been done before, and it > will continue being done.u  F If you look at the job posting for VMS, you find some jobs that remainJ posted forever - these are in locations which are not very desirable.  NotH many people want to relocate to NYC to be a VMS system manager, even for. 80-90K, you know its pretty much 24 by 7 work.  C > > "A quite unknown company named IBM invented things like the 370 K > architecture,MVS and lots more, before the first VAX was ever booted in aoK > research laboratory. These things are as alive today as they were 30 pluso( > years ago and Linux runs on them. ..." >uK > Current versions of VMS run today on ancient VAXes. How old a 370 can rundI > current versions of MVS? All of IBM's latest hardware can run Linux. So- can- > Alpha. So what?, >   I The point is that IBM has protected its customers investment a lot bettercK than Compaq has.  IBM has provided a relatively smooth evolution of its 360PJ architecture for about 35 years.  Compaq couldn't commit to Alpha for moreK than a fraction of its designed lifetime.  This gets into the matter of whoc
 do you trust.   L > > "... That is as if Linux still ran on a PDP/11, and as if the PDP/11 was > still being sold today." >s > > ...h >OL > > * BILL BRADFORD writes: "The PDP-11 *is* still being sold today, and hasH > been continually since 1970. DEC just sold all the rights/intellectualI > property for the system to Mentec (www.mentec.com) in 1990. I run a webm site< > about the systems which you can find here (www.pdp11.org). >iK > IBM's Systems/3, 32, 34, 36, and 38 died long ago. Like collectors of oldfH > cars with crank starts and mechanical brakes, some people like to play withJ > PDP-11s, but would anyone really want a Linux constrained by sixteen bitL > words, eight 4KW mapping registers, and other fundamental design decisionsD > made in the days of > $1/word core memory? What does the continued	 existenceDG > of the PDP-11 have to do with running an outstanding modern operating" systemG > on hardware that will have far greater market penetration than Alpha?c >.G IBM migrated their customer base to AS/400 a lot more smoothly than DECsE moved VMS customers from VAX to Alpha.  IBM had ISVs engaged in thosetH migrations and IBM lost few customers.  Lots of VMS customers turned offI their VAXen and that was the last DEC system they ever used.  Or the laste Compaq system they used.  L Oh, and PDP-11s are still embedded hardware systems.  While DEC didn't see aJ future in investing in new PDP-11s, third parties did see reasons to do soD and they sell higher performance PDP-11s even today.  Since software> development and qual is a major expense, staying with a proven; hardware/software platform is cheaper for embedded systems.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:06:04 +0100s+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>g& Subject: Re: Ont "The Inquirer" today.' Message-ID: <3B62B8BC.923A47B9@iee.org>e   mulp wrote:eM > How about DECset - no Compaq engineers work on any of those tools.  DECnet, E > the IBM connectivity products, la dee la.  Lots of that stuff is in J > maintenance mode with fixed expense budgets - if the problem reports are8 > below a certain level than new features will be added.  . I think the way it works for these products is1 that EDS are contracted to do maintenance. If new-+ features are required, someone gets to pay.1- The last new feature I worked on was paid for@( by COMPAQ who were (in turn) paid by the! customer that wanted the feature.e  + I presume that a port of these tools to IPFr+ would work the same way. (I cannot imagine r* the DECset tools not being ported; I would' expect customer pressure to require theo DECnet stuff to port too).   Antonioa   -- D   ---------------V- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:43:49 +0930t% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>n7 Subject: Re: OPCOM messages sent outside the local noden) Message-ID: <3B62662D.26ECE11@vsm.com.au>    Hello,   Moi Je Le Sais wrote:i >  > Hi,p > D > I'am wondering if I can send all OPCOM messages be sent to another/ > node on the network via any tcp/ip services ;X > % > Example: Can I use snmp to to this?i > > >          Is is possible to send the messages through e-mail? >   F That's *exactly* what our OperCon product does (plus a few more things	 besides).h; Please see http://www.vsm.com.au/opercon/ for more details.i   Regards,  s         Jeremy Beggl  =   +---------------------------------------------------------+i=   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |-=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |@=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        |n=   |---------------------------------------------------------|M=   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |2=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    |e=   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      |g=   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    |@=   +---------------------------------------------------------+r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:40:30 GMTi. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>K Subject: Re: OpenVMS on IPF (was re: IPF already needs a face-lift for VMS) D Message-ID: <O%t87.2640$bl1.406520@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-2407010927440001@user-2ive6ha.dialup.mindspring.com...J > In article <y4zo9uqz1m.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: >fG > > For all practical purposes, the interlocked VAX instructions, beingy	 mapped tonJ > > PAL calls on Alpha, already are emulation traps. All the hardware does is to H > > make this emulation more efficient (for instance with regard to trap > overhead). >tI > Reading the alpha docs, it seems to me that these PALcode traps are notSA > all that efficient.  They may be ok compared to VAX interlocked I > instructions, but they are terrible compared to straight-line, non-PAL,  > alpha instuction sequences.r  K PAL is cheaper than doing a change mode kernel and then raising IPL to lockmE out interrupts  - remember that in PAL mode, there are no interrupts.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:09:13 +0200D From: zessin@decus.det< Subject: Python for OpenVMS version 2.1.1-V001 now available+ Message-ID: <009FFAE6.940F7984.27@decus.de>m  < Please see http://www.decus.de/~zessin/python2/ for details.F Don't forget to check the 'notes' link at '~zessin/python2/notes.html'   for last-minute changes.   -- t
 Uwe Zessin   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:00:10 GMTn. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>) Subject: Re: SAN-based Backup for OpenVMSeD Message-ID: <_pt87.2559$bl1.398699@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  H I doubt that you will find any software other than VMS software that canF create a backup of a VMS disk without the disk being offline.  You canB offline the disk if you create a snapshot or clone using the arrayK controller software, but then you'll just create an image that will need to 8 be restored in its entirety to restore individual files.  J Where are the tapes being stored?  If they are just a few building away, II suggest putting storage in a second building using Fibre Channel and justoH creating clones.  Virtually no down time and minimal cost for making theE "backup" and little opportunity for operator error.  And its probablyoE competitive with a tape drive solution that is of decent performance.   4 "Rick Dyson" <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU> wrote in message# news:3B6198B0.3949163A@UIowa.EDU...eI > Does anyone know if there are any solutions available for using some of E > the big, new SDLT tape library boxes in an EMA 12000 SAN with HSG80- controllers-= > and using Fiber Channel for interconnects to OpenVMS Alphas< > running v7.2-1?e >oK > In particular, I am researching the possiblility of performing the backupoK > between the SAN-served disks and the SDLT drive *without* needing to moveo every F > byte to and from the OpenVMS server too.  That is, keep all the data movement > within the fabric of the SAN.r >oF > I believe there are solutions like this available for WinXX and Unix
 boxes, butI > I can't seem to locate anything that is available for OpenVMS that willr makeD > OpenVMS readable tapes.  Something that could be used for disaster	 recovery,n > etc. >I
 > Regards, > Rick > --J > Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduJ >  _   _  _____                    http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/J > | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst  --  INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group> > | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ > | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems BT1000 GH       Office: 319/384-7016J >  \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052               FAX: 319/384-7020 >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:58:00 GMTr$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>) Subject: Re: SAN-based Backup for OpenVMSu) Message-ID: <3B62C594.3A82869C@wi.rr.com>   R 1) Putting anything other than disks in an ESA12000/EMA12000 is strictly verboten.  S 2) VMS doesn't support accessing a tape drive over fibre channel until 7.3 (which I3! haven't had a chance to test it).i  Q 3) I know what you're looking for ("server-less backup") but I haven't seen it incM the VMS space yet.  I think Compaq is close to rolling out a solution for theIR NT/2000 world.  It involves using Backup Exec (or a similar competing product) and the Modular Data Router.   -scott   Rick Dyson wrote:t  I > Does anyone know if there are any solutions available for using some ofsQ > the big, new SDLT tape library boxes in an EMA 12000 SAN with HSG80 controllersC= > and using Fiber Channel for interconnects to OpenVMS Alphaso > running v7.2-1?  >eK > In particular, I am researching the possiblility of performing the backup Q > between the SAN-served disks and the SDLT drive *without* needing to move everyeO > byte to and from the OpenVMS server too.  That is, keep all the data movement  > within the fabric of the SAN.  >tQ > I believe there are solutions like this available for WinXX and Unix boxes, buttN > I can't seem to locate anything that is available for OpenVMS that will makeN > OpenVMS readable tapes.  Something that could be used for disaster recovery, > etc. >s
 > Regards, > Rick > --J > Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduJ >  _   _  _____                    http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/J > | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst  --  INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group> > | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ > | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems BT1000 GH       Office: 319/384-7016J >  \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052               FAX: 319/384-7020   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:52:42 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ?kD Message-ID: <ebu87.2979$0w3.402713@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  - "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote in messageb2 news:q8vqltos4gnruftne1enbp8p9h5sprqrem@4ax.com...> > 2.  Compaq has *two* high-end server groups:  One working onG > Alphaserver systems, and one working on Intel/AMD systems.  Ever lookSG > at the details of the Proliant 8500 architecture?  It has an internal F > switched bus... but it doesn't use switch technology we own.  HavingG > two completely different "systems" engineering groups has got to be a0 > drain on resources.   F The proliant solutions involved significant compaq design work but theJ ownership is with the companies that actually invested the money in makingK the chips.  What compaq has generally gotten out of the deals is six monthsaJ of exclusive use of the resulting chips, but that doesn't mean that compaqI is able to sell them for six months before Dell and HP start shipping therL same chips - since compaq doesn't use build to order like Dell, it works outK to only 3-4 months lead time.  This is one of the reasons that compaq has a 6 higher level of R&D than Dell; compaq does Dell's R&D.  J The switch chip used for Alpha is used by multiple Alpha system makers andH was a joint design by DEC and a chip vendor I don't recall.  My guess isK that the chips in the proliant and in the alpha XP2000, ds20, es40 have hadr about the same volume.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:03:40 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ?rD Message-ID: <06w87.3238$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B61AE7C.4E93373B@videotron.ca...J > And by the time Intel does come out with the fast chips, Alpha will have longI > been forgotten and nobody wilo suspect that Compaq had given away Alpha,- > secrets before the June 25 deal was signed.i  3 One thing is for sure, Alpha will not be forgotten.   G As IA64 progresses and SPARC catches up and survives, there will be the E ongoing debate about whether Alpha would have been able to match IA64 F implementations in performance with the Intel bigots saying "we'll theF problem is that those DEC engineers working on the Intel compilers areH incompetent and highly over-rated" or "those compiler and chip engineers@ that went to Sun's technology center stole Intel trade secrets".  L And of course, us Alpha bigots will keep saying that IA64 is an elephant andG you can't expect it to dance - might under some circumstances get goingsL pretty fast in one direction, but if the direction has to change, forget it.H And Alpha, with its flaws would out perform any IA64 implementation by a= factor of two with half the investment that will go into IA64l implementations.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:03:46 GMTi. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ? D Message-ID: <66w87.3239$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  - "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote in messaget2 news:ne34mtopt3eou6frh2lhrcpv9m7j8ano05@4ax.com...3 > And being successful financially is what we need.n >eF > We'll all just have to wait and see if this is the path to financial
 > success.  I Is this using industry standard parts that are made by someone other thanm Compaq, like Intel?d  L If yes, then forget it - Dell will strip off the profitable business and get& a higher gross margin with lower SG&A.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:13:32 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r- Subject: Re: Selling VMS to another company ?S, Message-ID: <3B62F2BB.D69CAA1D@videotron.ca>   mulp wrote:i5 > One thing is for sure, Alpha will not be forgotten.  > I > As IA64 progresses and SPARC catches up and survives, there will be therG > ongoing debate about whether Alpha would have been able to match IA64   > implementations in performance  K Considering that neither Digital nor Compaq tried to make Alpha mainstream, F Alpha is already unknown to the masses so its death has gone unnoticedJ already. And for those who knew Alpha, they may remember it as yet anotherK failed Digital product that was technologically superior but was overpriced  and under-marketed.t  K But I doubt very much that people will debate whether Alpha would have beenA faster or not.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:47:03 +0200y. From: "richard knight" <spinzero@sniffout.com>+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user baser3 Message-ID: <akMTMQ3FBHA.202@stannard.sniffout.com>q  J I wonder if Sun are looking for someone to to destroy the alphas they hope	 to get:-)a   -- richard      Alan Greig  wrote in messageE > It then goes on to offer a 20% trade in value on any new Sun servere > against an Alphaserver.b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:11:38 +0000 , From: lene4401@uni-trier.de (Gerhard Lenerz)+ Subject: Re: Sun goes after Alpha user base , Message-ID: <ankuj9.bu2.ln@news.g-lenerz.de>  9 On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:47:03 +0200, richard knight wrote:e  L > I wonder if Sun are looking for someone to to destroy the alphas they hope > to get:-)-  7 Well.. I'd volunteer to "destroy" some in my basement.    B And remember: Trade-in programs are evil. The smile of your local D hardware-geek is much more worth than any money they offer for your  machines. ;-)   I! (Followup-to set to comp.sys.dec)   
 Gerhard:wq -- d http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ X   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:03:52 GMTt. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>% Subject: Re: The Inquirer on VMS portsD Message-ID: <c6w87.3240$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B61AB4B.8EFBF50B@videotron.ca...G > Since Oracle still has RDB as a product, it is quite likely that theyc stillC= > have enough engineers to recompile RDB on the new IA64 VMS.t  H Oracle will do the work as long as Compaq pays and provides the hardwareH required to do the development, qual, benchmarking, etc.  That's the way2 Oracle does with all vendors, even Sun, IBM, HP...   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:04:15 GMTd. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>% Subject: Re: VM: checking some myths.lD Message-ID: <z6w87.3245$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  K The distinction between virtual machine and emulation and hardware assisted9@ emulation are as clear cut as the distinctions between differentG implementations of clusters.  MAME, and the family of machines emulatedgK under Supnik's framework are as much virtual machines as IBM's VM's, et al.o  8 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message# news:ud76ocg0x.fsf@earthlink.net...e2 > "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes: > @ > > IBM implemented virtula machines (VM's) before the above was
 implemented -oJ > > the upgrade strategy that IBM used to move customers to the 360 was toK > > provide VM's for each of the machines that IBM wanted to replace - eg.,mL > > those 1401 somethings or another.  And there were probably other VM's as3 > > well before the 360 from IBM and other vendors.r >V@ > IBM provided hardware emulation of earlier hardware on various? > processors ...  i.e. 360s were almost all microcoded machines H > ... where "microcode" on the microprocessor emulated 360. The machinesD > were also shipped with "microcode" to simulate other machines. TheB > following is out of a recent "golden era of compilers" thread in > alt.folklore.computers:d   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:04:42 GMTe. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>) Subject: Re: Who does migration from VMS?mD Message-ID: <_6w87.3247$0w3.428372@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  I Contact Sun; a good sales rep will find you the assistance you need.  ;-)i  F accelr8 provides tools AND SERVICES and has partners that will provideI services when they are unable to.  I'm sure that the other companies thatw" has similar tools do this as well. http://www.accelr8.com/p  / "Jay Braun" <lyngwyst@aol.com> wrote in messagea7 news:4ce97a1a.0107261344.3d8e0248@posting.google.com...m8 > I have been doing web searches for companies that do aH > migration/porting from VMS, primarily to UNIX/Linux.  I keep hitting aE > small group of companies whose primary business is selling productseB > that emulate VMS in UNIX/Linux and Windows NT/2000 environments.G > Aren't there firms that perform ports in such a way that the customer @ > doesn't have to keep relying on VMS constructs and proprietary > products for years to come?  >s > Jays >t+ > p.s.  I love VMS.  Please don't flame me.u >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:31:44 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e. Subject: Will the real DECNET (4) get ported ?, Message-ID: <3B62F6FE.1DB96C3C@videotron.ca>  J At what point in time should customers expect to see some hard information? about wether prducts such as DECNET-4 will get ported to IA64 ?    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.416 ************************