1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 03 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 305       Contents:, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun# Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000 # Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000 ! Re: Any DECforms users out there? + Re: Availability Manager V2.0 now available + Re: Availability Manager V2.0 now available & Baltimore Maryland OpenVMS 'C' Opening Re: CD-RW on a VMS system. Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.$ Re: CHARON-VAX: Cannot open disk E::( Re: CHARON-VAX: change keyboard mapping?' Re: CHARON-VAX: Help/mess does not work  Re: disk benchmarking 8 Re: Emacs on VMS (was: Re: WANTED: GNU GCL For OpenVMS.)8 Re: Emacs on VMS (was: Re: WANTED: GNU GCL For OpenVMS.)2 Re: Function to measure time for command execution2 Re: Function to measure time for command execution Re: hszterm software Re: hszterm software Re: hszterm software Re: ICC and Memory Channel2 Monitoring & management tools for Galaxy/Wildfire?6 Re: Size of VMS patch kits and new compression options Re: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 01:49:55 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun - Message-ID: <873d9ivkjg.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:   8 > The issues around the DEC PC fiascos as I recall were: > M >     Rainbow - a very nice dual processor PC ran CP/M and DOS, but still not  > that powerful (Z80/8088)  * The Bow uses a 8086, the IBM PC used a 88.  D >     Professional - the PDP-11 of PCs.  Great design, multi-tasking > OS, but closed architecture   B Semi closed. You could get the info for asking almost. The biggestD problem was the total brain death of the idiots running the project,C and their total inability to listen. When you haver several hundred D people put their hand up to 'Do you want your own PDP-11?' and *ONE*: for 'Will you buy a Pro?'  most people would get a clue...  D > The laptops were probably the best part of DEC's venture into PCs.! > They tended to be leading edge.   @ And the prioris line. Sad to say, DEC started the 'pc' path many' times, and never once got off its face.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:01:54 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B192A12.92765CD9@infopuls.com>  : This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.  ( --------------msDBB4F215E9DA7569B7615205* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Christof Brass wrote: C > > As I said: performance of ES40 is exceptional - and that's what  > > we and our customers need. > O > Digital used to brag about having machines that are great from the desktop to  > the data centre.= > But now itseems that only the ES40 is worth bragging about.  > M > If th Alpha-VMS platform is only good (price performance) on a single model L > compared to the competition, then it is not a viable platform. Sun may notJ > have leading edge everywhere, but they seem to have more than acceptableG > performance on a wide range of machines which explains their success.   ; While I fully agree with the part "If the Alpha-VMS ... " I ? don't agree with your rating of SUN. SUN is in the UNIX (I have @ to emphasise that it is not recommended to use this so called OS? which mainly consists of a collections of un-designed pieces of 9 code) area what Micro$hit is in the SOHO and game area: a @ company which sells ideas and has a very good marketing and very
 good lawyers.   @ I personally wait for the moment when companies learn from their> experience that they can't trust SUN and stop buying from this3 company. Marketing success is no quality criterion. ( --------------msDBB4F215E9DA7569B7615205= Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" ! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 5 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" 3 Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature   H MIIFcwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIFZDCCBWACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCCH AzswggM3MIICoKADAgECAg8AqnEAAAABkiKp/7CYL6swDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbwxCzAJH BgNVBAYTAkRFMRAwDgYDVQQIEwdIYW1idXJnMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdIYW1idXJnMTowOAYDVQQKH EzFUQyBUcnVzdENlbnRlciBmb3IgU2VjdXJpdHkgaW4gRGF0YSBOZXR3b3JrcyBHbWJIMSIwH IAYDVQQLExlUQyBUcnVzdENlbnRlciBDbGFzcyAxIENBMSkwJwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhpjZXJ0H aWZpY2F0ZUB0cnVzdGNlbnRlci5kZTAeFw0wMDExMjAwMzIwMDZaFw0wMTExMjAwMzIwMDZaH MEsxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkNIMRgwFgYDVQQDEw9DaHJpc3RvZiBVbHJpY2gxIjAgBgkqhkiG9w0BH CQEWE3VscmljaEBpbmZvcHVscy5jb20wgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAKiBH 9PjxtkY7Fr81XzSMIyyNC/NuiGnZCnOv/ItXXKZmETzzXkmRCXD50X06Qz5xTyFodnIgSOKdH nTGOBiZPQVC5dZeSWlVEh69eTF4f3lHquQ9ojUIKjeJcYHKOheM4xYhGleJwIQZz6k0Z/bZNH Zz2IYR8pf30AioFVcRV6H2/BAgMBAAGjgaowgacwMwYJYIZIAYb4QgEIBCYWJGh0dHA6Ly93H d3cudHJ1c3RjZW50ZXIuZGUvZ3VpZGVsaW5lczARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMCBaAwXQYJYIZIH AYb4QgEDBFAWTmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRydXN0Y2VudGVyLmRlL2NnaS1iaW4vY2hlY2stcmV2H LmNnaS9BQTcxMDAwMDAwMDE5MjIyQTlGRkIwOTgyRkFCPzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQCcH DTdjetRlCX4kU26Lg9lVnTtwEEvdZVHzRvr77m9pJvEjKlRuQLetvr0bdFBIBIAHtb3hyggLH VEPPnwcCVxKs54YzsP5pupX6PxQFb3UEi53I2kBXaVSNRSfhjaUgxNLXBou+HzX1bzq1zLquH fHIlGgnubnG2r/Yk3AzyxHvSgDGCAgAwggH8AgEBMIHQMIG8MQswCQYDVQQGEwJERTEQMA4GH A1UECBMHSGFtYnVyZzEQMA4GA1UEBxMHSGFtYnVyZzE6MDgGA1UEChMxVEMgVHJ1c3RDZW50H ZXIgZm9yIFNlY3VyaXR5IGluIERhdGEgTmV0d29ya3MgR21iSDEiMCAGA1UECxMZVEMgVHJ1H c3RDZW50ZXIgQ2xhc3MgMSBDQTEpMCcGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYaY2VydGlmaWNhdGVAdHJ1c3RjH ZW50ZXIuZGUCDwCqcQAAAAGSIqn/sJgvqzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIGGMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELH BgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTAxMDYwMjE4MDE1NFowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEH MRYEFCi3mvuukT9gjflzRjV9gZJ56sjBMCcGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzEaMBgwBwYFKw4DAgcwDQYIH KoZIhvcNAwICASgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEgYCiCM6NQ2g2uLD1B+DG0dGN1B7Ba/bVEAUvH 2fK/m3vHROZHBI1P63phWwFXvzXkVu/nxplYsuqK7hT93eXOzRJdN/v6xzoG7skNcRPI45JGD ES56QVkJfiUv7jgEw+14x88LIrGVY3t1uGnV3qxKJjhHGylfjAZ2VGqQdngJyrCOMA==* --------------msDBB4F215E9DA7569B7615205--   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:13:34 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B192CCE.AF486CA9@infopuls.com>   Bill Pedersen wrote: > 8 > The issues around the DEC PC fiascos as I recall were: > M >     Rainbow - a very nice dual processor PC ran CP/M and DOS, but still not  > that powerful (Z80/8088)L >     Professional - the PDP-11 of PCs.  Great design, multi-tasking OS, but > closed architecture  > J > Those were the early attempts. And unfortunately DEC thought the supportK > organization needed to be like that for Enterprise customers.  This was a H > major downfall in the plan and was probably a major contributor of theJ > demise of this early effort.  It was also during the time when Olsen was4 > heard to say, "PCs, a fad."  (Highly paraphrased). > F > There were also some ventures like the 8088 in a VT100 housing and aN > PDP-11/23, also in a VT100 housing and then there were the DECword products,L > specialized word processors (PDP-8 on a chip).  Many of these were curious= > but other than the word processors did not see much volume.  > L > The second and later ventures into PC were solely Intel based and at timesJ > in conjunction with other vendors doing some of the manufacture for DEC.N > This included Tandy as well as Ollivetti and others as I recall.  But it was > then a "real" PC.  > J > The laptops were probably the best part of DEC's venture into PCs.  They > tended to be leading edge. > N > I have never heard of issue with regards to any PCs being more powerful than? > any of the VAX line in the discussions and in my involvement.  >  > -- > Bill Pedersen  > CCSS Corporation > CCSS Interactive Learning  > www.VMS.St > 831-336-2708 > ================ > 8 > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3B182808.FD1B013C@infopuls.com... > > > > > From the technical point of view Digital made at least two@ > > mistakes. I don't remember all the details but basically theC > > story goes like that: Digital developed a very powerful PC (was B > > it the Rainbow?) and found that the computing power was higherD > > than some of the higher prices VAXes. Now comes the part I don't< > > remember clearly: either they slowed down the PC or they< > > increased the price. But at the end it didn't make sense > > economically.  > >   : Thanks for clarifying. I surely have mixed some things and@ didn't remember correctly. The second and later ventures into PC< are wellknown to me. I'm not happy that I don't remember the@ true story of the beginning which was told to me by a person who3 had very detailed technical and economical insight. = Let me stil insist in one point: DEC had a technical solution ? against the PC and didn't want to make their business customers > angry by offering more computing power to a lower price. Maybe< the PDP-11 PC version or something like this was the thing I vaguely remember.   = The only fact I'm sure is that Digital decided not to offer a ; powerful PC solution because they didn't want to anoy their : business customer base, the people who payed more for less; computing power. If someone else could complete the story I  would be very glad.   = The Hinote laptops were leading edge in ergonimics and design > but they had some stability/quality problems in the beginning.3 IIRC they came out not long before Comaq took over.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:18:13 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B192DE5.B13E3880@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Christof Brass wrote: ? > > And one remark about your a little strange idea of the IA32 C > > coming close to real enterprise computing power. Would you like B > > to tell me how many IA32 CPUs are able to work together in one > > server?  > P > It doesn't matter because companies are stringing multiple separate servers toN > handle the load. How many servers does Dell have now to serve its web site ? > O > It and seems that companies prefer to hire 20 MS weenies  to manage a farm of O > servers than to find willing abd able VMS system managers to manage a smaller P > more efficient setup. If VMS workforce were so rare, folks like me wouldn't beB > unemployed and you'd be seeing ads for VMS experts all the time.  8 You're right for the moment. I wonder if the majority of> companies will pursue this strategy in the next years. I still@ think that's not too late for VMS to come back where it belongs.  @ And there are areas where you can't replace a powerful system by a farm.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:21:40 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ( Message-ID: <9fbamv$6f1$1@pyrite.mv.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:873d9ivkjg.fsf@prep.synonet.com... 1 > "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:    ...   F > >     Professional - the PDP-11 of PCs.  Great design, multi-tasking > > OS, but closed architecture  > D > Semi closed. You could get the info for asking almost. The biggestF > problem was the total brain death of the idiots running the project,E > and their total inability to listen. When you haver several hundred F > people put their hand up to 'Do you want your own PDP-11?' and *ONE*< > for 'Will you buy a Pro?'  most people would get a clue...  L To the best of my recollection, it wasn't the people running the project whoL kept things relatively closed as much as it was the rest of the company, dueK to fears that a $3K - $5K full-fledged PDP-11 would drastically cannibalize L what was still a very large portion of DEC's bread-and-butter business.  AndH these decisions were made pretty early in the game:  when the demand youJ describe above became clear, F-11 and J-11 PDP-11s actually did appear notF that long after the PRO (though still at 2 - 4 times the price, IIRC).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 03 Jun 2001 00:36:45 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun 0 Message-ID: <3b1986d8$1@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  I I personally do not believe that the business customers were the cause of  the problem.  J DEC did have a technical solution, or the start of it, against the PC.  ItJ was the PRO.  It was based on the PDP-11, but the interfaces were close orL at least VERY DIFFICULT to get and EXPENSIVE.  They needed to figure out howJ to get from that to an OPEN environment to be able to have volume.  It was@ miles ahead of the PC in concept and functionality and potentialK performance, but over-engineered and therefore more expensive.  There was a J standard for the user interface, support for HELP in all applications, theL ability to really run multiple applications in protected mode simultaneously* (gee, when did that come out in Windows?).  K BUT DEC could not market and could not understand that even though this was E a SINGLE user machine they would continut to sell multi-user systems.   L You could not run a lab or a department on this.  It was not multi-user, but it was multi-tasking.    --
 Bill Pedersen  CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learning 
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  6 "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3B192CCE.AF486CA9@infopuls.com... > < > Thanks for clarifying. I surely have mixed some things andB > didn't remember correctly. The second and later ventures into PC> > are wellknown to me. I'm not happy that I don't remember theB > true story of the beginning which was told to me by a person who5 > had very detailed technical and economical insight. ? > Let me stil insist in one point: DEC had a technical solution A > against the PC and didn't want to make their business customers @ > angry by offering more computing power to a lower price. Maybe> > the PDP-11 PC version or something like this was the thing I > vaguely remember.  > ? > The only fact I'm sure is that Digital decided not to offer a = > powerful PC solution because they didn't want to anoy their < > business customer base, the people who payed more for less= > computing power. If someone else could complete the story I  > would be very glad.  > ? > The Hinote laptops were leading edge in ergonimics and design @ > but they had some stability/quality problems in the beginning.5 > IIRC they came out not long before Comaq took over.    ------------------------------   Date: 03 Jun 2001 00:41:16 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun 0 Message-ID: <3b1987e7$1@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  I Yes, my mistake, I had pulled the 8088 info from a web site and do recall  that it used the 8086.  L Yes, project management and product marketing were not realy tuned into whatH they were really building. And then it was over-built.  VERY eligant butJ very over-designed and over-built.  The bus was a ZIF socket, have we everK seen that on a PC?  Think of the cost per socket.  And that concept went onn4 with the rest of the design to make the price go up.  I Yes, they did not ever really seem to figure it out until toward the end.    --
 Bill Pedersen" CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learning"
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messageo' news:873d9ivkjg.fsf@prep.synonet.com...q1 > "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:  >h: > > The issues around the DEC PC fiascos as I recall were: > >bK > >     Rainbow - a very nice dual processor PC ran CP/M and DOS, but stilln notV > > that powerful (Z80/8088) >i, > The Bow uses a 8086, the IBM PC used a 88. >dF > >     Professional - the PDP-11 of PCs.  Great design, multi-tasking > > OS, but closed architecture  >kD > Semi closed. You could get the info for asking almost. The biggestF > problem was the total brain death of the idiots running the project,E > and their total inability to listen. When you haver several hundredLF > people put their hand up to 'Do you want your own PDP-11?' and *ONE*< > for 'Will you buy a Pro?'  most people would get a clue... >aF > > The laptops were probably the best part of DEC's venture into PCs.# > > They tended to be leading edge.  >aB > And the prioris line. Sad to say, DEC started the 'pc' path many) > times, and never once got off its face.t >c > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.MB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:55 +0100-  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun0+ Message-ID: <VA.000003a4.2743fe25@sture.ch>>  A In article <3B177CC4.E0BB99C3@uk.sun.com>, Andrew harrison wrote:    [snip]  , > From a workstation standpoint Compaq seem + > unable to build any form of AlphaStation a0 > that can compete price wise with a SunBlade1005 > and while it may not be as fast as the lowest cost d4 > D machine its bigger brother the SunBlade 1000 is ( > and it is also very price competitive.  8 So you call $10,000 (and then the rest) for the SunBlade 1000 very price competitive?   That's indeed interesting.   ___d
 Paul Sture Switzerlanda   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:21:44 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> , Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000* Message-ID: <3B1966F7.4AD9383A@virgin.net>   John Santos wrote:  @ However, I don't think it negotiates full/half duplex correctly.  E > Under heavy load, DECnet logs lots of "alignment" and "frame check"tH > errors to OPCOM.  Either setting the ew?0_mode to FastHD or explicitly1 > changing the switch to full-duplex solves this.  >   N I've given up trying to make 100FD work reliably to most of our switches (fromM VMS). Even if I force modes at both ends *sometimes* it still doesn't work. I K have found that 100 Half Duplex works on every single occasion. If you havelN very heavy two way network traffic then this would not be an option of course.  M Every other piece of hardware/software seems to reliably autonegotiate so whyeL not VMS. The same cards in some of our NT servers autonegotiate correctly so, it's a software problem as far as I can see.   > J > I have had this happen on at least 6 different systems at 4 sites, usingF > a variety of Ethernet interfaces and switches.  Other systems (PC's,H > Suns) seem to autonegotiate to 100Mb full-duplex just fine, so I think@ > there is a generic problem with the Compaq boards or firmware. >s  N Yep and it's been known about for nearly two years at least within Compaq. But3 nothing seems to have been done to fix the problem.    >n > --
 > John Santosm > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:34:12 -0400i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0206011934120001@user-2ivea48.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <3B1966F7.4AD9383A@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:   > John Santos wrote: > B > However, I don't think it negotiates full/half duplex correctly. > G > > Under heavy load, DECnet logs lots of "alignment" and "frame check"oJ > > errors to OPCOM.  Either setting the ew?0_mode to FastHD or explicitly3 > > changing the switch to full-duplex solves this.O > >g > P > I've given up trying to make 100FD work reliably to most of our switches (fromO > VMS). Even if I force modes at both ends *sometimes* it still doesn't work. IeM > have found that 100 Half Duplex works on every single occasion. If you havesP > very heavy two way network traffic then this would not be an option of course. > O > Every other piece of hardware/software seems to reliably autonegotiate so whybN > not VMS. The same cards in some of our NT servers autonegotiate correctly so. > it's a software problem as far as I can see.  D I sometimes see the frame check errors, and less often the alignmentG errors.  I don't see any performance problem unless the errors get to aAI pretty high rate.  I don't always see the errors at high data rates.  AndUI I don't need high data rates to see the errors, though I don't think I'vexG seen bursts of errors on a very unbusy line.  Moderate-to-heavy trafficUJ seems to yield no errors, moderate errors, or tons of errors, depending on the phase of the moon.  G I wonder if VMS is more picky in looking for network problems, and moreQ@ likely to report a marginal case that other systems just ignore.  F I notice that VMS reports more errors than our semi-intelligent switchA reports at the other end of the same cable.  That might be a realBC difference in error rates, or it might be a difference in reportingu philosophy.W  G I've also noticed that when errors get very bad on a particular line, I0C can cure them by cycling the power on the switch.  That leads me toG2 suspect the cause is not mainly on the Compaq end.  L > > I have had this happen on at least 6 different systems at 4 sites, usingH > > a variety of Ethernet interfaces and switches.  Other systems (PC's,J > > Suns) seem to autonegotiate to 100Mb full-duplex just fine, so I thinkB > > there is a generic problem with the Compaq boards or firmware. > >X > P > Yep and it's been known about for nearly two years at least within Compaq. But5 > nothing seems to have been done to fix the problem.C  G There have been firmware changes, for example on the DPW workstations. w3 But I dind't see any particular change in behavior.N   -- R Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comJ   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 04:50:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>* Subject: Re: Any DECforms users out there?- Message-ID: <87itiek3mj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>G  < "Scandora, Anthony \(35048\)" <scandora@cmt.anl.gov> writes:  E > The DECforms engine is very good at displaying characters on a dumb1F > 24 line 80 or 132 column terminal, if that's what you really want toC > do.  Do you really have a lot of users running their applicationsFB > from VT-nnn terminals?  If they're running terminal emulators onE > PCs, you might be better off writing real PC programs or DECwindows  > programs.r   DECw possibly.  C But for PCs, forget it. I can show Dave some one who trod that pit.e; They now have 20, yes, two zero, extra staff proping up thedD billyboxes! If an extra $million or so a year is not a problem well,
 go for it.  7 Now, if you could through a PC priced cluster together.e   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.y@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov t   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 03:03:47 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Availability Manager V2.0 now available- Message-ID: <87pucmu2jw.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  2 "Steve DiPirro" <Steve.DiPirro@compaq.com> writes:  F >  Availability Manager Version 2.0 is being shipped coincident with aF > release of DECamds, version 7.3A. Both fix a number of problems with; > earlier releases. The kits are available on our web site:t  A I've just tried to install the new AMDS on a 6.2 system, and PCSI @ has not been able to find the kit. The release notes say 6.1 has@ been dropped, but how do I install it on 6.2 if PCSI won't touch it?v   -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.=@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov d   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 04:44:28 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Availability Manager V2.0 now available- Message-ID: <87n17qk3wz.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  . Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  4 > "Steve DiPirro" <Steve.DiPirro@compaq.com> writes:  F > >  Availability Manager Version 2.0 is being shipped coincident withE > > a release of DECamds, version 7.3A. Both fix a number of problemslB > > with earlier releases. The kits are available on our web site:  C > I've just tried to install the new AMDS on a 6.2 system, and PCSIaB > has not been able to find the kit. The release notes say 6.1 hasF > been dropped, but how do I install it on 6.2 if PCSI won't touch it?   Grr, user is an iriot...  6 Add /base=vms, the defaults changed in later versions.  8 Other nit, is you have to start it with 'avail/motif' or@ it complains about /nomotif not being valid... And, quick check,5 7.2-1 does as well. "Illegal combination of elements"d  E Seems more stable than the old one, not blown away yet :) Still tendsh! to 'walk' the disk window though.e   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov 0   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:38:16 -0400:  From: Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff)/ Subject: Baltimore Maryland OpenVMS 'C' Opening.O Message-ID: <FAA991A389018F80.6D61E3A3919DD2F0.481BF4574378510B@lp.airnews.net>y  C    We're looking for a good C Programmer with many years of OpenVMSrH applications experience, Digital/Oracle RDB experience would be perfect.H Immediate opening with cross training to Oracle Applications programming in java and Oracle Forms.      Kuff@Tessco.comv# See www.tessco.com for company infoe   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:15:22 +0100; From: "Leigh G. Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> # Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.l/ Message-ID: <9fba9f$qvm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>e  ! This is the best I've got so far.r  I LGB_PHJ> cdrecord -V speed=1 dev=0,2,0 -data DKA100:[FILES]PHJ$DKA0.ROM;1r= Cdrecord release 1.8a9 Copyright (C) 1995-1998 Jvrg Schillingn TOC Type: 1 = CD-ROMK phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Cannot set priority on this OS.s? phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Fifo not supported.  scsidev: '0,2,0' scsibus: 0 target: 2 lun: 0s atapi: 0A phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Cannot do inquiry for4 CD/DVD-Recorder.L phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: i/o error. test unit ready: scsi sendcmd: retryable error CDB:  00 00 00 00 00 00. status: 0x0 (GOOD STATUS)r% cmd finished after 0.000s timeout 40s I phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: The unit seems to be hung ando needs  power cycling. LGB_PHJ>  A The unit isn't hung and has been power cycled. Frequently and the  VAXstation.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:31:56 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t# Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.o0 Message-ID: <009FCEF9.3D149584@SendSpamHere.ORG>  m In article <9fba9f$qvm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Leigh G. Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> writes: " >This is the best I've got so far. >sJ >LGB_PHJ> cdrecord -V speed=1 dev=0,2,0 -data DKA100:[FILES]PHJ$DKA0.ROM;1> >Cdrecord release 1.8a9 Copyright (C) 1995-1998 Jvrg Schilling >TOC Type: 1 = CD-ROM3L >phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Cannot set priority on this OS.@ >phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Fifo not supported. >scsidev: '0,2,0'  >scsibus: 0 target: 2 lun: 0	 >atapi: 0dB >phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: Cannot do inquiry for >CD/DVD-Recorder.lM >phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: i/o error. test unit ready: scsi- >sendcmd: retryable error- >CDB:  00 00 00 00 00 00 >status: 0x0 (GOOD STATUS)& >cmd finished after 0.000s timeout 40sJ >phj$dka0:[cdrecord.18a9]cdrecord_vax.exe;1: The unit seems to be hung and >needs >power cycling.e	 >LGB_PHJ>  > B >The unit isn't hung and has been power cycled. Frequently and the >VAXstation. >a >c     What model is the VAXstation??   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             lO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:14:20 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)d- Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX: Cannot open disk E::d0 Message-ID: <3b193a89.17196006@news.process.com>  J On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:37:10 +0200, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote:  I >I have installed a CHARON-VAX demo for Windows (Me). It works fine untila; >I try to enable CD access (system is a COMPAQ Armada 100S)d >tB >When I remove the # in front of line SET DUA file[2]="\\.\E:" the  >console complains with message: >e: >  DSK:3040: cannot open disk \\.\E:: operation terminated >sB >The CD is E: and works fine under Windows. Same behaviour with or >without CD in the device. >iH Is this a recent version of CHARON-VAX?  There was a version that didn'tF recognize some DVD drives, though after I supplied them with info fromG my laptop, I've had no problems.  I'd suggest you contact SRI about it.d   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/e9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:15:38 GMTy- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) 1 Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX: change keyboard mapping?l0 Message-ID: <3b193b14.17335006@news.process.com>  J On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:40:32 +0200, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote:  B >I did not find how to change the keyboard mapping of the terminal! >emulator, if possible of course.  >y" >Did someone here succeed in this?6 >(are there actually CHARON-VAX users around here?...) >nE I'm one.  I don't believe you can change the keyboard mapping.  TheirmA terminal emulator was never intended to be used for real terminal A emulation.  If you read the docs, they tell you how to set up andd> use other, better emulators.  AFAIK, providing a full-blown VT emulator wasn't the goal.e   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/-9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/m   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:18:01 GMTm- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)$0 Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX: Help/mess does not work0 Message-ID: <3b193b5f.17410044@news.process.com>  J On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:20:05 +0200, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote:   >When doing a  >t >$ help/mess pkgreqd >n >I get this: >s >Message number 05FD8013 >(and many others similar) >e? What does this have to do with CHARON-VAX?  CHARON-VAX emulatesP" the hardware, not the software....   [...]o8 >(I recall that Charon-Vax is shipped with OpenVMS 6.2). > > Recent (as in, for the past year or so) releases of CHARON-VAX= are not shipped with any version of VMS.  You have to installC< VMS yourself.  If you have a CHARON-VAX that came with V6.2,< then you're most likely running the ancient proof-of-concept; kit, which had a number of problems (and this could explaine  your CD-R access problems, too).   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/D   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:55 +01008  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <VA.000003a5.2743fffc@sture.ch>u  @ In article <3B17DB74.B6E1E0B1@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:* > From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmse  > Subject: Re: disk benchmarking' > Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:14:12 -0400o > P > Am I gettin' to ya Mr. Bill?  Running out of adjectives I see.  Would you likeP > to purchase a vowel, or is that the last we shall hear from you poor, dear Mr. > Bill.pQ > Feel free to fire the full litany of your foul-mouthed arsenal at me so you candG > best illustrate to all who read, what a learned professional you are.p >  Mr Moto, a question:  A Did you pay for the 5 minute argument or the full  half hour one?   < Please stop the personal attacks. They will get you nowhere.  L Of course if you persist I shall enjoy ripping you to shreds. This is not a J threat, but a promise. But I'd much prefer it if you got back to sensible  technical topics.e ___s
 Paul Sture Switzerlandc   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:23:02 GMT-= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)lA Subject: Re: Emacs on VMS (was: Re: WANTED: GNU GCL For OpenVMS.)a0 Message-ID: <009FCEF7.FF152E6A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <3B166B38.D277D9C@mail.ourservers.net>, Robert Alan Byer <byer@mail.ourservers.net> writes: >> sL >> It can but not without *great* pains.  I have a working 19.28 as far as IL >> can tell.  I'm not an Emacs power user by any stretch of the imagination,M >> so I'm not certain all of the functionality is there.  I've been trying to K >> build a V20.?? with great great difficulty.  One of the problems is that K >> none of the 19.28 mods for VMS were ever introduced into the Emacs base- K >> line.  The psycho HAVE_mumbledefritz CONFIG.H builder (CONFIGURE.COM) isa0 >> also can of very slimey and disgusting worms. >> >@/ >And people wonder why others hate Unix code :}o >pD >I've run into alot of this porting other stuff to OpenVMS and while >those people that areI >TREULY going tward portable code to make it work on as many platforms asl >possible usullyI >do a good job and make it alot easier, there are those damm psyco's thatt
 >just LOVEE >to make configure scrips and makefiles that make the necessary build'
 >files out ofi >"thin air".  ( Reverend, you're preaching to the choir!   >> )H >> One of the big problems with the Emacs build is its reliance on the CK >> compiler's production of intermediate output of preprocessor directives.lH >> This is a kludged up bit of claptrap and makes fixing the bugs nearlyF >> impossible.   Only the unix mindset could have devised such a mess. >> >eB >I've started porting GNU GCL to OpenVMS and while I'm making some >progress, theE >biggest part of my time isn't fixing bugs, it's figuring out how thei >damm things builds6C >in the first place and what needs to be where and what needs to bec	 >defined.c  F The contorted and wrapped around backward build methodology (as if youF could refer to the configure shit as a methodology) causes you to haveF to rebuild from scratch every time you make a small change to get someG build bug remedied.  My experience is that you attempt to fix somethingxG far down in the build and you perpetrate some *new* error early in the .( build that you'd gotten past previously.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:28:49 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)rA Subject: Re: Emacs on VMS (was: Re: WANTED: GNU GCL For OpenVMS.)i0 Message-ID: <009FCEF8.CDDA587A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <qhn17shwhr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:4 >Robert Alan Byer <byer@mail.ourservers.net> writes:1 >> And people wonder why others hate Unix code :}  > B >Oh yeah, as if VMS code is more easily ported to other platforms.  G I only wish that I could port the code.  It's these damned f***ing ugly G configure issues that are the biggest bugger.  All born of the realiza-  tion that C is NOT portable.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             fO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.a   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 08:35:34 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>; Subject: Re: Function to measure time for command execution - Message-ID: <871yp2jt7t.fsf@prep.synonet.com>l  8 andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft) writes:  B > In the UNIX world there is a command "time" which can be used toF > measure the time elapsed, CPU and real, of a command, e.g. # time ls  , > Is there anyway of doing this within VMS ?   See SET ACCOUNT/IMAGEs   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:03:25 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>g; Subject: Re: Function to measure time for command executiong' Message-ID: <3B19B70D.9366D810@fsi.net>t   Paul Repacholi wrote:n > : > andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft) writes: > D > > In the UNIX world there is a command "time" which can be used toH > > measure the time elapsed, CPU and real, of a command, e.g. # time ls > . > > Is there anyway of doing this within VMS ? >  > See SET ACCOUNT/IMAGEt  F Do tell - I find it in the .CLD (as output by VERB) and in the on-lineF doc. (http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/), but not in the on-line help for V7.2-1.    -- t David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.,   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 08:33:59 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: hszterm softwareo- Message-ID: <8766eejtag.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:r  E > In order to manage my OpenVMS storage "farm", I have to run SWCC onl? > a connected Sun box so I can pull up the GUI on a Wintel box.    > Did I get that right?r  B > If so, am I the only one who thinks that something is wrong with > that picture?t  D We sugest you upgrade to the official MeggaShit solution. A ProliantF dalek will call shortly. Oh, sorry, we forgot. The one DEC standard weF kept, salesman never call back. Oh and you get to pay again to upgrade	 in Oct...o  A > ...and then, of course, the question remains: how do I split my F > HSx-based mirror-sets for BACKUP from an OpenVMS batch job using the > foregoing scenario?i  A Very carefully if you have set the cache timeout parameters high!f   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:56 +0100c  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> Subject: Re: hszterm softwaree+ Message-ID: <VA.000003a7.27440254@sture.ch>i  M In article <20010601201913.11933.00000057@ng-fo1.aol.com>, Prosullivan wrote:a  2Q > if you are going solaris on hsg80's, for example, Compaq recommand the platformsC > kit (SWCC that actually works for a change) supplied for Solaris.t > Q >  This gives GUI based PC config diagram of controllers and disks and you can do-O > all the hszterm stuff there. I've used it and it knocks hszterm into a cocked  > hat. > K You surely jest with that last sentence. SWCC may well be OK for a 10 disk fR system, but how can you seriously suggest it is better than a CLI when managing a  few hundred disks?  J Besides which, the wretched thing (SWCC) caused us all sorts of problems, L including spontaneous SCSI bus resets until I disabled it. It also told the J hardware man connecting via the console line that he couldn't have access!  P Granted, it may have improved in the last 2 years, but I have very bad memories  of it.   ___b
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:57 +0100o  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> Subject: Re: hszterm software + Message-ID: <VA.000003a8.274407ce@sture.ch>   < In article <3B184F8C.703CD114@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth wrote:& > From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsn > Subject: Re: hszterm software % > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 02:27:37 GMTu >  > No, that's not correct.= > O > There is a scripting tool for VMS that will let you talk directly to the HSGst+ > without any Solaris or NT boxes involved.i >o. Is that the same utility used to talk to HSJs?  > > SWCC bites the big one.  If you need to have a GUI to manage* > your HSGs, buy the Management Appliance. > R Hmm. Something which came up on the recent VMS Update Day was that to manage some V disk farm of the future (sorry, not got my notes here, but it was in the Fibrechannel S session) you _needed_ an NT web server. I am really not happy about that, as I can eR imagine a scenario where I have to call an external department for support when I Q want to manage my disks. CSWS (Apache) on VMS or Apache on a *nix box seems more - appropriate to my mind.1 ___8
 Paul Sture Switzerlands   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 02:40:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com># Subject: Re: ICC and Memory Channel - Message-ID: <87u21yu3n2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  + fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:D  @ > Should Memory Channel be used to build a Supercomputer running > OpenVMS ????  F I suspect for DB stuff at least, it's been done. And that you can hold your breath :)  K But, yes you could, and a whole lot more. An unltra secure web server comesrH to mind. Net boot, NO disks, everything via ICC. Give the script kiddies something to wonder about!   -- W< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.c@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov S   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:56 +0100e  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>; Subject: Monitoring & management tools for Galaxy/Wildfire? + Message-ID: <VA.000003a6.27440146@sture.ch>$  G I have been asked to evaluate possible monitoring and management tools e for our shiny new GS320.  G Suggestions welcome, including those of the nature of "don't go there".0   TIA. ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland]   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:48:58 +0100   From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>? Subject: Re: Size of VMS patch kits and new compression options-+ Message-ID: <VA.000003a9.27440919@sture.ch>u  M In article <y4u220mz02.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan - Vorbrueggen wrote:I > From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsgA > Subject: Re: Size of VMS patch kits and new compression options." > Date: 01 Jun 2001 09:37:49 +0200 > 6 > hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > Q > >   Well, other than any licensing issues and such.  And yes, we've had variousSN > >   discussions around adding (de)compression capabilities into PCSI, thoughN > >   this enhancement was pre-empted by other work for the PCSI engineers -- K > >   though given the storage "crunch" on our CD-ROM media kits, this PCSIdF > >   (de)compression implementation priority may well get escalated.  > D > And please, please, get rid of the CHKSUM kludge and put in properD > authentication and integrity checking at the same time. Really, itF > isn't difficult. (Am I repeating myself, or what?) As an "enterpriseD > computing" company and with its enterprise flagship OS, this seems > mandatory to me. > P And I will second that. IIRC, nowhere do the web pages say whether the checksum R should be applied to the downloaded file or the extract, nor even tell you how to Q run CHECKSUM itself. Easy enough to handle when you know how, but surely not for   a novice....  P And my very first impression of the VAX/VMS patches I received 20 years ago was Q "Where is the checksum?". I had been used to that facility on both RT-11 and IBM a mainframe systems. ___d
 Paul Sture Switzerland:   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:55:21 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change* Message-ID: <3B1960C9.C4D25F61@virgin.net>   David Beatty wrote:t  4 > I can't let this one go ... see my comments below. >    Neither can I...   > 6 >     The science of global climate change is anything > but certain. >e3 >     The temperature models that show warming overn5 > the last 100 years do not adequately take the urbann" > heat island affect into account. >o= >     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely normalr6 > planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced9 > by human activity.  Not only that, warming would likelyi9 > have more positive effects on the planet than negative. 2 > Most warming would likely come from higher night7 > temperatures and would make additional land availablet > for farming.  V Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climate scientists right now.U While the factors you mention certainly do come into play the majority view says that-T it *is* likely we are seriously overheating the planet and that negative cosequencesU will outweigh any positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play itd safe.f --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 01:42:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?- Message-ID: <877kyuvkw3.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:   : > Also, only one country (Romania) has ratified it so far.  H Could you cite a source for that? Or provide a map of the newly expanded
 Romania...   -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jun 2001 01:58:25 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?- Message-ID: <87y9rau5ku.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:d  I > Ah, yes - but when BSOD becomes a "household word" (it isn't already?), ? > they'll wonder, "Is there not something better in the world?"   F Dave, I think history shows you are wrong. The Rainbow had one obviousC difference to the IBM PC; no reset button! PC people asled where itnE was, the 'why would you need one?' went in one ear and out the other.hC To a large number of people ALL computers come witha BSOD, it's howh computers work :(o  H > IMHO, M$ lacks the technical savvy to pose a serious challenge to OVMSG > in the data center, contrary to the claims of one of their current adu > campaigns.  B So they will pervert standards to isolate and lock out non-bogwareD systems. They have just done this with the new URL stuff by silentlyA turning // into a single /. Guess who this advantages? So if this2D causes the Company problems are you going to drag bill into court to fix it?  or get IIS...   -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.:@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:08:20 -0400w- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B192B92.612866D7@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:G > Not much good for 40 mile commutes, or in rainy/snowy/icy weather ...r > sort of like public transit.  N That is why government leadership is necessary. In europe, because the cost ofK fuel has alway been high, cities were built accordingly and cities are more-K compact. Same with Japan. It is because governments did not take actions to N steer its citizens for long term energy consumption viability that cities wereL built to be fuel inefficient. (eg; sprawling suburbs, large highways, barredM access to cyclists on many roads, difficult to walk in some areas, and one ofeL the worse offenders: force to use elevators in office towers even to walk up or down one floor).s  M Do not forget that any time you spend in a car is time you are not exercising N your body. And any time you spen on a bicycle is time you spend exercicing. SoM if your commute takes 30 more minutes by bike than by car, consider that when>N you get home at night, you have already done your exercise and need not go out for 2 hours at a gym.u  G Similarly, if you take the bus or train, the extra time it takes is notyA entirely loss because you can read newspaper etc during the trip.U  L And in the end, if a society relied more on muscle than on cars, it would beM healthier and would spend much less money on health care. People think *I* amrN crazy to walk or take my bike to the convenience store, but I think that thoseN who are so weak that they must take their car for a 2 minute car ride, well, i< consider them more handicapped than someone on a wheelchair.    N It is a question of lifestyle choices. And the USA government is fostering theL wrong lifestyle because it does not make any attempt to steer its populationM towards healthier lifestyles and less dependance on cars. You may not be able 9 to eliminate cars, but you can greatly readuce their use.iN But doing so is a long term endeavous so that you can give a change to DetroitK to adapt to lower car production and built something else. (GM bikes  ? :-)g   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:34:55 +0200h) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B1931CF.48DA842B@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:  > = > In article <3B182AFB.278F93BC@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassa > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:r > D > > The consequences of Bush's "strategy" are 1000 new nuclear powerC > > stations within the USA and exploration and exploitation of oil < > > fields in Alaska with destroying protected nature areas. > L > Sorry Christof, you're way out on this.  There aren't likely to be any newL > nuclear power stations here any time soon.  Perhaps a few will appear, theC > 1000 is a totally absurd number.  The U.S. public is (sadly) very-J > anti-nuclear due to the past few decades of propaganda they've absorbed.G > Nobody proposes Chernoble-style joke reactors here; Chernoble isn't as5 > valid argument against a properly designed reactor.C  > This number was presented in the press as a explicit statement of the Bush administration.e2 I wonder why you didn't talk about the oil fields.  K > Don't forget, nuclear plants don't make greenhouse gasses.  Or ozone.  Ore > ozone-depleting CFCs.e > @ > In the current regulatory climate, nukes are not even close toG > cost-effective.  I don't expect any private money will be invested togL > construct them.  Electricity would have to get MUCH more expensive to make > them attractive. > ? > > Ever heard of "Three Mile Island" aka "Harrisburg"? The USAtA > > aren't like the Ukraine. Think about the "Challanger"! Do youe > > feel safe? > ? > Aren't you generally downwind from France?  Do you feel safe?e > H > I don't know what TMI has to do with Challenger.  Or with Ukraine, for > that matter. > J > You do realize that no one was harmed by TMI, right?  (Except perhaps byG > media-induced hysterical stress.)  The pittance of radiation that was 9 > released was not a health issue, not even a little bit.u > H > (And yes, I understand radiation safety.  So if you want to talk aboutF > health effects, please be prepared to justify your claims with solid > numbers.)a >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com   @ I'm 50% physicist and I'm very familiar with the consequences to< environment and statistics of nuclear power. I don't go into; detail here because - as I said - I don't think this is thev appropriate forum.  ; But let me straighten out a few things about what I alreadyc posted: > TMI was as close a possible to be like Chernobyl or much worse@ in the consequences. I was merely a matter of luck that not much happened outside.o8 The Challanger accident was at least to a major part the= consequence of people not doing their job right. If you use ac@ technique like the nuclear power you have to count on the people@ doing their jobs right. But this doesn't work. Did you hear that= in the English re-preparation plant for nuclear material some @ people not only violated the rules by mere sloppyness but rather> actively faked x-ray pictures to deceive that the material was okay?n@ The point I tried to make with referring to the Ukraine was that> the USA have more people around and therefore an accicent like' Chernobyl would cause much more damage./   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:27:58 -0400d2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0206011728000001@user-2ivea3g.dialup.mindspring.com>  4 In article <3B1871C6.BE00142@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:d   > Robert Deininger wrote:-K > > But alas, much less energy efficient.  And the jury is still out on they$ > > harm done (if any) by the CFCs.  > O > I suggest you go to Australia or even Canada during our summer before you sayo  > this. The ozone hole is real.   H Yes, it is.  But its cause(s) are not understood.  Laboratory studies doI not necessarily reflect what happens in the upper atmosphere.  Proof thatg? CFCs are responsible for the hole is somewhere between weak andrJ nonexistent, from what I've read.  Politically-motivated full-page adverts' by celebrity "experts" notwithstanding.h  - > Remember those science fiction movies where O > humans had to live underground with pale skins because they can't go outdoorstL > ? Well, it has gotten to a point when you can't go outdoors unless you are+ > covered with clothing or put on sunblock.V  H Please give me the numbers.  By what percentage is UV exposure increasedG at various wavelengths beneath the "hole", compared to beneath "normal"  atmosphere? F I am very skeptical of your claim.  Extrapolation from science-fictionG movies does not convince me of much.  Unless it means there should be a6G tax on the intellectual pollution caused by movies.  (Just kidding  ;-)f    + > > We don't understand the ozone mechanism G > > very well at all.  And of course there are still lots of CFCs being 0 > > deployed (and manufactured) under the table. > N > Manufacturing is only done in third world countries supposedly for their ownL > consumption since they were too poor to migrate to newer gases. In westernP > countries, the only CFCs available are those that were stockpiled or recycled.N > Any black market imports from south america to the USA through Miami are not > supposed to happen.   I "Supposed to" and reality is quite different.  People go to great lengthsdF to get old freons when they don't want to buy new equipment.  Stuff isF smuggled into the US.  CFCs from Mexico.  Working toilets from Canada,B since we are no longer allowed to make our own at reasonable cost.  8 > > Look, the U.S. senate declined to ratify the treaty. > N > Look, the U.S. undertook to abide by an international agreement. How this is. > implemented internally is not our business.   E Sorry, you don't understand our constitution, I guess.   Bill ClintoniE signing a piece of paper at Kyoto has ZERO legal authority unless oureH senate ratifies it.  Our senate refused to do so in no uncertain terms. F The US president is NOT authorized to make binding treaties with otherG nations, any more than I am.  So we never agreed to Kyoto.  Thus we dids not back out of the agreement.     > But if the USA is unable toeP > implement its commitments, it looks bad internationally. The fact that Bush JrK > took a decision VERY QUICKLY after having moved to the white house was aneO > indication not of senate problems but of unwillingness of Bush Jr to abide bya2 > international commitments that the USA had made.  A As I said above, there was no commitment.  Bush's opinion of thissC non-treaty was well known before he took office; no one with a clueoE expected his administration to continue Clinton's illegal attempts ton enforce the rejected agreement.w    K > > ... that we tend to believe in free markets.  There is a demand, so thet: > > car companies do what they can to supply the vehicles. > N > So, if I were to produce cyanide-based fire logs that make a very nice flameM > in your fireplace, I would be allowed to sell as many as I wish to the USA fK > even though burning them would spew cyanide gases up every chimney ? Freen > enterprise, right ?-  G Unless there was a law prohibiting it, yes.  SUVs are legal here, ok?  -  O > Free enterprise would work if the true cost of polluting were included in theeH > market. But because the USA does not charge for polluting, your nationN > generates 25% of the world's pollutants. If there were a pollution tax, yourA > corporations would work hard to make systems that pollute less.p  A I'm all for a pollution tax, to the extent is collected uniformlyaF worldwide.  Details of implementation would be difficult:  who gets toE decide which pollutants should be taxed at which rates?  Who gets thee money? i  F Personally, I don't think CO2 is a pollutant, since it appears to be aG minor greenhouse gas (water is clearly more important in this regard). 1  Besides, it's been too cold. :-)  G > If there were a pollution tax, SUVs would not have become a de-factor,L > single-person transportation system in the USA. But because of the lack ofG > true costing of environment, your industries "default" to being nastyvK > polluters and wasters until there is a crisis where the industry is takene# > aback incapable to adapt quickly.u  J I don't suppose you drive in the US much.  There are more SUVs now than 10E or 20 years ago (maybe), but there are lots of smaller cars.  There'snH certainly no crisis.  SUV are certainly not any kind of "default".  (SUVG isn't even a well-defined term.  I've met a number of folks who seem to A think it means "YOUR car is bigger than _I_ think it should be".)     L > If there had been a pollution tax, the US car industry would have kept itsI > focus on building energy efficient cars and would not need to flip flop9K > between tooling for gas guzzlers and back to small energy efficient cars.u  @ At any rate, pollution is roughly proportional to gasoline usageE (certainly for CO2 the correlation is very close).  Higher gas pricespJ favor smaller cars, and moreso when prices go up.  And we have significantH gas taxes here.  Doesn't matter what it's called, it acts as a pollution tax to some extent.:  : > > Because that's what (some of) the buying public wants. > M > Then give everyone his own personal air conditioned winnebago with built-ini* > hot tub for commuting to work every day.  I No, I won't advocate _giving_ him anything, because I'm not a socialist. nG If he wants to buy it and support it with his own money, I won't try topH stop him, because I'm not a totalitarian.  If I could prove that his SUVC harms me, I might try to discourage it through a tax or other legalaI means.  But there are LOTS of things that harm me more than my neighbor's.H SUV, so I expect I'll pick other battles first.  You, or course, have to choose your own battles.  F And I'm not going to respond here again; we are WAY too far off topic.   -- h Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:43:24 -0400u2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0206011743240001@user-2ivea3g.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B18730F.AB6A18F6@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeia% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n   > Robert Deininger wrote:uM > > Don't forget, nuclear plants don't make greenhouse gasses.  Or ozone.  Or: > > ozone-depleting CFCs.e > M > But they generate lots of nuclear waste and there is currently no permanent4. > solution to what to do with all that stuff.   @ I disagree.  There are several good solutions, by any reasonableI definition of safety.  This is an area where hysteria has gone way beyond  objective fact.   hO > Hydro electric may be "clean" but it also destroys/changes the environment bye > flooding large areas.t  D Change, yes.  Destroy, that depends on your point of view.  Deer andI woodchucks probably don't like big reservoirs.  Lake trout and mosquitoesdD probably do.  Salmon wouldn't mind, if only they could jump over theF bloody dam.  Large innundations have been happening for eons; man-made( ones are pretty tame in the big picture.  5 > About the only truly clean energy sources are wind,   F Windmills kill birds sometimes.  They also alter the flow of the wind,> changing the microclimate in the vicinity.  (So do buildings.)   > geothermal,   I may be clean, but we don't really know _what_ we're disrupting down underh the ground, do we?   > tidalq   probably kills fish sometimes.  
 > and solar. t  L Have you looked into the pollution caused by the manufacture of solar cells?   > Once they get fusion e  C I won't hold my breath.  And I dunno what large-scale separation ofoH deuterium would do to the environment.  I'm sure _someone_ would object.   > and antimatter reactors   G Where would we get the antimatter?  Is there a lot beneath the Canadiano/ National Wildlife Refuge?  How do you store it?o  H World-wide reserves of oil, coal, and uranium are fairly uncertain.  ButE there's essentially no doubt about world-wide reserves of antimatter.   - Yes, I know the antimatter part was a joke...   $ > working, the problems may go away. > I > Note that electric cars may be neat, but you still need to generate the  > electricity somewhere.  C Indeed.  That's why I don't like laws that _mandate_ electric cars.o  0 > Bicycles however are great for transportation   > ... in some situations.  Certainly, I'm against banning bikes.  
 > and they > keep you in shape.  = Yup.  If your knees can take it.  And if you've got the time.r   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comm   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:13:44 -0400(2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0206011813440001@user-2ivea3g.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3B1931CF.48DA842B@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:o   > Robert Deininger wrote:o > > ? > > In article <3B182AFB.278F93BC@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassp > > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:s > > F > > > The consequences of Bush's "strategy" are 1000 new nuclear powerE > > > stations within the USA and exploration and exploitation of oilo> > > > fields in Alaska with destroying protected nature areas. > > N > > Sorry Christof, you're way out on this.  There aren't likely to be any newN > > nuclear power stations here any time soon.  Perhaps a few will appear, theE > > 1000 is a totally absurd number.  The U.S. public is (sadly) very-L > > anti-nuclear due to the past few decades of propaganda they've absorbed.I > > Nobody proposes Chernoble-style joke reactors here; Chernoble isn't a 7 > > valid argument against a properly designed reactor.o > @ > This number was presented in the press as a explicit statement > of the Bush administration.   F I did not hear the number from anyone in the Bush administration.  TheJ "press" is not always good at checking or reporting facts.  My reaction isF the same, no matter where it comes from.  1000 new nuclear stations is8 absurd.  10 in the next decade would be a minor miracle.  4 > I wonder why you didn't talk about the oil fields.  G Simply because I missed the rest of the paragraph while reacting to thee% first part.  I'll make up for it now.p  D I've seen oil production facilities up close.  "Destroying protectedB nature areas" is a huge overstatement.  The actual production workJ disturbs a very small area.  A spill or other mishap can affect more area,H but with care damage can be kept quite small.  Note I said "damage", notI "destruction".  Actually "damage" may be too strong; "change" is probablyrH better.  It depends on your point of view.  There are some critters that like oil spills.  I do not.   oE The proposals for Alaska involve rather small areas.  The refuge as amJ whole is not threatened.   We have to balance the real and potential costsG to the refuge against the benefits of getting the oil.  There's nothing J wrong with considering it.  It seems rather totalitarian when folks try to suppress any consideration.o  G If it is deemed worthwhile, congress will probably decide to allow someiI exploration and production in the refuge.  That's the kind of decision we  elect them to make.n  I The trans-alaska pipeline was supposed to do all sorts of terrible things H to mother nature, but she's hardly noticed.  I expect it will be true in this case as well.    B > I'm 50% physicist and I'm very familiar with the consequences to> > environment and statistics of nuclear power. I don't go into= > detail here because - as I said - I don't think this is theh > appropriate forum.  @ Fine, we can do it offline.  We can add up to 1 whole physicist.    = > But let me straighten out a few things about what I already 	 > posted:y@ > TMI was as close a possible to be like Chernobyl or much worseB > in the consequences. I was merely a matter of luck that not much > happened outside.a  N Bullspit.  Apart from all the other design details and operational procedures,H TMI has a substantial containment system.  Chernobyl did not.  I've read< some details of both accidents; TMI did not even come close.  : > The Challanger accident was at least to a major part the3 > consequence of people not doing their job right.    1 Absolutely.  Plenty of incompetence to go around..   > If you use aB > technique like the nuclear power you have to count on the people > doing their jobs right.   F Agreed.  But the same is true of coal-fired power, or hydroelectic, orG many other large-scale activities.  What would happen if the Hoover Dami0 collapsed?  Worse than Chernobyl, or not as bad?   > But this doesn't work.    H The level of care that goes into the design, construction, and operationG of a nuclear plant in the USA is far, far, far beyond the level of careaH that went into Challenger.  As is appropriate, since the potential risks aren't comparable.   > Did you hear thatd? > in the English re-preparation plant for nuclear material sometB > people not only violated the rules by mere sloppyness but rather@ > actively faked x-ray pictures to deceive that the material was > okay?   . I hope they were very publicly thrown in jail.  J I live a few miles from a nuclear plant (never opened) where the anti-nukeF crazies got accomplices on the inside to fake x-ray pictures that they- claimed showed defects in important plumbing.t  J These folks should have been publicly thrown in jail as well, but they areF still going about their evil work.  They simply hate anything with the word "nuclear" in it.e  B > The point I tried to make with referring to the Ukraine was that@ > the USA have more people around and therefore an accicent like) > Chernobyl would cause much more damage.f  G There's no such thing as zero risk.  Inadequate electrical supply kills G people too.  With nuclear power, we can make the risk of a BIG accidentrG like Chernoble very, very small.  The new generation of reactor designshG (never constructed) are thermally stable -- essentially unable to "melt J down".  Small nuclear power accidents present about the same scale of riskJ as many other industrial activities.  Small amounts of radiation are not aD particular health hazard; certainly less than many other things that generate much less fear.  9 And I won't say another word on the topic in comp.os.vms.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:06:26 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B197167.32130257@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:pG > Sorry, you don't understand our constitution, I guess.   Bill ClintonrG > signing a piece of paper at Kyoto has ZERO legal authority unless ourc > senate ratifies it.   J However, Bill Clinton signs this treaty with other nations as the officialM representative of the nation he represents. If he signs the treaty, it is his K responsability to ensure that his nation writes/approves the legislation torN enact that treaty domestically. If that fails, for whatever reason, the USA isD seen as renegging on a promise by its leader to abide by the treaty.  J If you commit to writing a piece of software for a certain date and sign aM contract with the customer, but your staff is then unable to deliver, you are Q still seen by the customer as not delivering what you promised you would deliver.     H > The US president is NOT authorized to make binding treaties with other > nations, any more than I am.  M If there is nobody authorize to negotiate international treaties on behalf of.? the USA, then your constitution has a very serious flaw in it. c  G > Unless there was a law prohibiting it, yes.  SUVs are legal here, ok?w  N Exactly. Not only are they legal, but your nation took no steps to prevent theN proliferation of these single passenger winnebagos that waste fuel and polluteM big time. Consider also that the construction of an SUV requires more natural C resources than the construction of a reasonable size passenger car.d  L > favor smaller cars, and moreso when prices go up.  And we have significantJ > gas taxes here.  Doesn't matter what it's called, it acts as a pollution > tax to some extent.e  M The price of gasoline in the USA is considered subsidized by world standards.iI It is subsidized because you do not pay for the cleanup of the pollution.eG Instead the EPA gets its money from the government to attempt to reducet0 pollution without hurting corporations' pockets.  N If the EPA collected a yearly levy on cars based on their emissions, or if theM EPA billed car manufacturers a yearly fee for each car that they produced andbN still registered, then the car manufacturers would have a strong motivation toE avoid building boats/tabks such as SUVs and concentrate on small fuel  efficient cars.c  N Very few people *need* an SUV.  How many kilometres of road in the USA require a 4wd vehicle ?k  I > If he wants to buy it and support it with his own money, I won't try to , > stop him, because I'm not a totalitarian.   M But right now, you do not object to someone buying an SUV even though you paynJ for cleaning up his pollution through the portion of taxes YOU give to theP government that goes to the EPA. Hence you are subsidizing your neighbour's SUV.  3 > SUV, so I expect I'll pick other battles first.  r  E There are many battles to be fought. However, had your government haduL proactive and preventive measures, the SUB phenomena would not have happenedJ because consumers would not have wanted such gas guzzling monsters becauseN they would have been too expensive to operate, hence there would be no problemV to solve today. Preventing nasty habits is easier that stopping acquired nasty habits.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 01:15:15 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B197383.3F9D9170@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:i > = > In article <3B1931CF.48DA842B@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass  > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:e   [SNIP]  B > > This number was presented in the press as a explicit statement > > of the Bush administration.  > H > I did not hear the number from anyone in the Bush administration.  TheL > "press" is not always good at checking or reporting facts.  My reaction isH > the same, no matter where it comes from.  1000 new nuclear stations is: > absurd.  10 in the next decade would be a minor miracle.  > Let's see what will happen; I have the source and the numbers.  6 > > I wonder why you didn't talk about the oil fields. > I > Simply because I missed the rest of the paragraph while reacting to thee' > first part.  I'll make up for it now.i > F > I've seen oil production facilities up close.  "Destroying protectedD > nature areas" is a huge overstatement.  The actual production workL > disturbs a very small area.  A spill or other mishap can affect more area,J > but with care damage can be kept quite small.  Note I said "damage", notK > "destruction".  Actually "damage" may be too strong; "change" is probablytJ > better.  It depends on your point of view.  There are some critters that > like oil spills.  I do not.  > G > The proposals for Alaska involve rather small areas.  The refuge as a L > whole is not threatened.   We have to balance the real and potential costsI > to the refuge against the benefits of getting the oil.  There's nothinglL > wrong with considering it.  It seems rather totalitarian when folks try to > suppress any consideration.e > I > If it is deemed worthwhile, congress will probably decide to allow somepK > exploration and production in the refuge.  That's the kind of decision we  > elect them to make.x > K > The trans-alaska pipeline was supposed to do all sorts of terrible thingsiJ > to mother nature, but she's hardly noticed.  I expect it will be true in > this case as well.  = Basically there are two problems: the risk to nature what youa? don't regard as a serious problem and the increase in volume of = oil "usage" with all the bad consequences for the environmente= (not to forget that oil is too precious to be simply used for,? energy delivery). Modern industry and society life style shouldf2 go into the direction of lower energy consumption.  D > > I'm 50% physicist and I'm very familiar with the consequences to@ > > environment and statistics of nuclear power. I don't go into? > > detail here because - as I said - I don't think this is thea > > appropriate forum. > B > Fine, we can do it offline.  We can add up to 1 whole physicist. > ? > > But let me straighten out a few things about what I already  > > posted:vB > > TMI was as close a possible to be like Chernobyl or much worseD > > in the consequences. I was merely a matter of luck that not much > > happened outside.o > P > Bullspit.  Apart from all the other design details and operational procedures,J > TMI has a substantial containment system.  Chernobyl did not.  I've read> > some details of both accidents; TMI did not even come close.  = I studied the case from the material I got about 10 years agoC> and from that material the accident was quite close to be like< Chernobyl. Do you know/remember what initiated the accident?  < > > The Challanger accident was at least to a major part the4 > > consequence of people not doing their job right. > 3 > Absolutely.  Plenty of incompetence to go around.g >  > > If you use aD > > technique like the nuclear power you have to count on the people > > doing their jobs right.  > H > Agreed.  But the same is true of coal-fired power, or hydroelectic, orI > many other large-scale activities.  What would happen if the Hoover Damm2 > collapsed?  Worse than Chernobyl, or not as bad?  ? Nuclear material in that concentration is *much* more dangerouso? than the problems you mentioned because there is no parallel in ? nature. Whenever the distance to the natural balance is too bigs7 the risk is too high to be taken. This is also true for.@ biological and chemical weapons: basically the risk is too high.   > > But this doesn't work. > J > The level of care that goes into the design, construction, and operationI > of a nuclear plant in the USA is far, far, far beyond the level of carenJ > that went into Challenger.  As is appropriate, since the potential risks > aren't comparable.  = We continue this if you answer the question about the initial1
 TMI accident.a   > > Did you hear thataA > > in the English re-preparation plant for nuclear material some D > > people not only violated the rules by mere sloppyness but ratherB > > actively faked x-ray pictures to deceive that the material was	 > > okay?h > 0 > I hope they were very publicly thrown in jail.  ; Probably not, because in court they will claim that nothing 9 really bad happened. But honestly I don't know. This is as> problem of the modern press: there is no continuity in topics.  L > I live a few miles from a nuclear plant (never opened) where the anti-nukeH > crazies got accomplices on the inside to fake x-ray pictures that they/ > claimed showed defects in important plumbing.  > L > These folks should have been publicly thrown in jail as well, but they areH > still going about their evil work.  They simply hate anything with the > word "nuclear" in it.  > D > > The point I tried to make with referring to the Ukraine was thatB > > the USA have more people around and therefore an accicent like+ > > Chernobyl would cause much more damage., > I > There's no such thing as zero risk.  Inadequate electrical supply killslI > people too.  With nuclear power, we can make the risk of a BIG accidentnI > like Chernoble very, very small.  The new generation of reactor designs I > (never constructed) are thermally stable -- essentially unable to "melteL > down".  Small nuclear power accidents present about the same scale of riskL > as many other industrial activities.  Small amounts of radiation are not aF > particular health hazard; certainly less than many other things that > generate much less fear. > ; > And I won't say another word on the topic in comp.os.vms.e  ? As a short comment: I personally don't agree with comparing ther< risk of not having enough electrical supply with the risk of; something like the Chernobyl accident. One major problem in > comparing nuclear risks with other industrial risks is that we@ don't have that much experience about the influence of radiation? onto our health because this phaenomenon is new compared to the 2 long time frames we need in genetics or evolution.   > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:31:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B197762.1EC81DA0@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:-6 > The proposals for Alaska involve rather small areas.  J Think again. How are you going to bring all the heavy machinery up there ?D Have you any idea what is involved in building even a gravel road on permafrost ?  , >  The refuge as a whole is not threatened.   L Do you have any idea why it was declared a refuge to begin with ? You shouldF note that it is an INTERNATIONAL refuge with one side in canada/yukon.  K Ask the migrating porcupine cariboo heard which spends winters in the YukontI but summers in the alaska arctic national wildlife refuge where they giverM birth how they will react to a pipeline blocking their migration. And no, youdJ cannot build anything underground that far north unless you refrigirate itN below freezing or are in solid rock. Drilling sites may be small, but they are. useless without transportation infrastructure.  N If you have ever driven the dempster highway in the yukon, the "roads" you seeN as you climb towards eagle plains are the tracks of exploring trucks that wereL left in the 1950s. 50 years are not enough to heal te damage left by a truck* rolling on the toundra. This is not Texas.    2 >  We have to balance the real and potential costs8 > to the refuge against the benefits of getting the oil.  C If the oil companies are forced to pay for the environmental damagehM construction of these wells and pipeline will cost, you may find that the oilfL companies will not be interested in going there. They are only inetersted inJ going there if they are not required to repair the damage they will cause.    K > The trans-alaska pipeline was supposed to do all sorts of terrible thingst- > to mother nature, but she's hardly noticed.r   Two words: EXXON VALDEZ.  N Furthermore, the Prudhoe Bay site is not located in the calving grounds of the porcupine cariboo heard.    P > Bullspit.  Apart from all the other design details and operational procedures,J > TMI has a substantial containment system.  Chernobyl did not.  I've read> > some details of both accidents; TMI did not even come close.  K Containement would have failed at TMI had the same occured as Chernobyl. It L wasn't the containment that saved the situation at TMI, it was the fact thatV they were able to put watre back in the reactor to cool it below meltdown temperature.  H > Agreed.  But the same is true of coal-fired power, or hydroelectic, orI > many other large-scale activities.  What would happen if the Hoover Dame2 > collapsed?  Worse than Chernobyl, or not as bad?  M The damage would be much more localised than in the case of nuclear failure.  M Nuclear reactor failures will "pollute" multiple continents. Failure of a damsH will destroy a small region. And once flooding has subsided, there is noM residual danger and you can rebuild right away. The failure of a dam will not.* cause birth defects for the next 20 years.  J > The level of care that goes into the design, construction, and operationI > of a nuclear plant in the USA is far, far, far beyond the level of careh > that went into Challenger.  K Consider companies that have no problems using Microsoft software and inteleN 8086 game controllers to control serious stuff because it costs less than realM machines such as Alpha/vms. Sorry, but I don't  trust private enterprise withmD nuclear power because the pressures to make nuclear power profitableK necessitates some compopromises since safe nuclear power is not profitable.a    I > like Chernoble very, very small.  The new generation of reactor designssI > (never constructed) are thermally stable -- essentially unable to "meltn	 > down". a  H Ever heard of the canadian CANDU reactors ? They have been like this forM decades, but the USA did not want to use this technology due to "not inventedhN here".  Nevertheless, nuclear is not profitable when you ensure it is operatedL safely. Ask Ontario Hydro about their nuclear reactors they had to shut down due to cracks in pipes.a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.305 ************************