1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 06 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 312       Contents:, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun $QIO and TCP/IP server Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server# Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000 # Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000 ; Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging ; Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging ; Re: Availability Manager vs DECAMDS Collector Modules query ; Re: Availability Manager vs DECAMDS Collector Modules query " Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processors" Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processors" Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processors" Re: Byte Order on Alpha ProcessorsH Re: Can you format sent VMS mail( was: Can you format recieved VMS mail)! Dec-net ethernet address on a vax % Re: Dec-net ethernet address on a vax ( DEC/EDI long shutdown, and startup times, Re: DEC/EDI long shutdown, and startup times Re: disabling floppy drive DSN Link Re: DSN Link< Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st. Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status RE: I demand your respect  Re: Is it just me? Re: Is it just me? NTPdate problem  Re: NTPdate problem  Re: OpenVMS/Windows scripts I Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester	Railroad,and Alphas J Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and AlphasP Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and Alphas Alpha' Re: QuickStrike?  Why not "OpenStrike"?  RE: RAID-0 or Logical Volumes  Replace DEC Bridge90?  Re: Replace DEC Bridge90?  Re: Replace DEC Bridge90?  Re: RZ28-E dead? Re: select() on non-sockets 6 Re: Size of VMS patch kits and new compression options subject _OPEN_VMS 7 Sun x Clustra | Compaq and .... Intersystems (why not?)  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  Threads.= UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 A Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 A Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 A Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 A Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 A Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2 : Re: User sued by DEC, was: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations: Re: User sued by DEC, was: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations VMS 7.2-1 and UCX 4.2   Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?  RE: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?  Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?= Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...) = Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...) = Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...) = Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...) = Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...) ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:02:54 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ) Message-ID: <3B1E461E.65B57FB@uk.sun.com>    Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----; > > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]  > 2 > > UltraSad, this was also the case with Alpha/NT0 > > could be one reason why Alpha on NT wasn't a2 > > great sucess. You have real difficulty selling0 > > a box as a performance leader in a commodity+ > > market when you cannot demonstrate that 1 > > performance leadership using any measure that . > > the market you are selling into places any > > credance on. > H > Well, I'm not going to argue high-end performance numbers, but this isM > somewhat off. :)  Alpha NT was unsuccessful because NT is trash.  You don't M > buy very expensive cars, and scratch "killroy was here" in the paint with a K > chisel, or plant flowers in them.  You don't buy a nice telescope so that J > you can take it to some sporting event.  You don't punch holes through aM > hundred year old violin -- and you don't run NT on a good computer.  It's a @ > complete waste.  I believe that's the reason NT on Alpha died. >   = NT was trash technically but was a huge sucess commercially,  < mainly because it attracted a large number of ISV's who were< prepared to put their SW on it. The availability of that SW < plus MS/Intel/Compaq's marketing dollars ensured its sucess.  > Alpha NT was unsucessfull not because NT was trash but because> Digital and laterly Compaq failed to get the ISV's to port to < NT/Alpha and failed to conclusively demonstrate that it was 2 worth paying a serious premium for a Alpha/NT box.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:56:33 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ) Message-ID: <3B1E52B1.5DFD7DAF@bbc.co.uk>    andrew harrison wrote:   >  > > > NT was trash technically but was a huge sucess commercially,> > mainly because it attracted a large number of ISV's who were= > prepared to put their SW on it. The availability of that SW > > plus MS/Intel/Compaq's marketing dollars ensured its sucess. > @ > Alpha NT was unsucessfull not because NT was trash but because? > Digital and laterly Compaq failed to get the ISV's to port to = > NT/Alpha and failed to conclusively demonstrate that it was 4 > worth paying a serious premium for a Alpha/NT box. >   D How true, I sadly remember the day when we benchmarked starting WordA on an Alpha Multia and a 133 MHz Pentium. Pentium had Word on the M screen before the Multia had barely responded to the click (approx 1.5 secs).   E Of course, M$ should and could have ported MS Office to alpha native.    regards  --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 02:05:12 -0700 ) From: joelleauffret@lucent.com (jauffret)  Subject: $QIO and TCP/IP server = Message-ID: <cddefe9c.0106060105.3bad51bb@posting.google.com>    Hi, C I have to write a TCP/IP server, using $QIO interface and accepting + multiple client connections simultaneously. & The environment is OpenVms 7.1/Pascal.B I read examples in UCX$EXAMPLES, but I just find examples with one client.   D After reading a lot of questions/answers I know there is two ways to implement the server. > - a "multi-thread" server within a single server process (AST)F - the "fork" method to have one process for read/write with one client	 ($creprc)   = I just want to know if one solution is better than the other, 5 and if somebody has a good example to implement this.      Best regards - Jolle    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:18:01 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) # Subject: Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server 0 Message-ID: <009FD1D8.E6D2A3CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  i In article <cddefe9c.0106060105.3bad51bb@posting.google.com>, joelleauffret@lucent.com (jauffret) writes:  >Hi,D >I have to write a TCP/IP server, using $QIO interface and accepting, >multiple client connections simultaneously.' >The environment is OpenVms 7.1/Pascal. C >I read examples in UCX$EXAMPLES, but I just find examples with one  >client. > E >After reading a lot of questions/answers I know there is two ways to  >implement the server.? >- a "multi-thread" server within a single server process (AST) G >- the "fork" method to have one process for read/write with one client 
 >($creprc) > > >I just want to know if one solution is better than the other,6 >and if somebody has a good example to implement this. >  >  >Best regards - Jolle  I I don't do Pascal but I prefer the multi-threaded approach.  It's really   quite simple to implement:       sock = socket(...); *   setsockopt(sock,..., SO_REUSEADDR, ...);   bind(sock,...);    listen(sock,...)  /   while ( (thread_sock = accept(sock,...)) > 0)    { E      pthread_create(&thread_object,&attr,server_routine,thread_sock); #      pthread_detach(thread_object);    }   I In your server_routine you have a single argument which is the socket for H your communication with the client.  All you need to do is recv()/send() on that passed socket.  I I've created my own socket library around the $QIO BG interface such that I I can call 'socket-like' routines.  Using the $QIO BG interface allows my I code to run with any one of the available TCP/IP stacks.  Some of this is J done for you in the examples in the [UCX/TCPIP] directory in SYS$EXAMPLES.K I haave added many more to complete the library such as recvfrom()/sendto() & and various incantations of get*by*().   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 12:19:59 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> # Subject: Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server 8 Message-ID: <6u3sht4fiu0fgn3b5fasrs0uaqj8ssj63j@4ax.com>  A On 6 Jun 2001 02:05:12 -0700, joelleauffret@lucent.com (jauffret)  wrote:   >Hi,D >I have to write a TCP/IP server, using $QIO interface and accepting, >multiple client connections simultaneously.' >The environment is OpenVms 7.1/Pascal. C >I read examples in UCX$EXAMPLES, but I just find examples with one  >client. > E >After reading a lot of questions/answers I know there is two ways to  >implement the server.? >- a "multi-thread" server within a single server process (AST) G >- the "fork" method to have one process for read/write with one client 
 >($creprc)  9 There is one other solution which should be mentioned for C completeness.  If the volume of incoming requests is relatively low A (ie up to several per minute then you can use inetd (Aux server). F Under UCX/TCPIP this allows you to connect a bit of DCL to an incomingC port and a specific account. This DCL normally runs a program which C can then take ownership of the socket. In the simplest case you can C actually define sys$input and sys$output as sys$net or just perform B i/o to sys$net. Thus mimics the inetd functionality under Unix. AsD multiple instances of the code will run for every connection this isC not efficient for large numbers of connects/disconnects per second.   > >I just want to know if one solution is better than the other,6 >and if somebody has a good example to implement this. >  >  >Best regards - Jolle   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:30:28 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) # Subject: Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server 3 Message-ID: <$oykYWxq5KHM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <cddefe9c.0106060105.3bad51bb@posting.google.com>, joelleauffret@lucent.com (jauffret) writes:   F > After reading a lot of questions/answers I know there is two ways to > implement the server. @ > - a "multi-thread" server within a single server process (AST)H > - the "fork" method to have one process for read/write with one client > ($creprc)   C Process creation is expensive (slow) compared to the alternatives.  1 Avoid it when there are appropriate alternatives.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:02:20 -05001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> , Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp10008 Message-ID: <9fl9ku$a1f$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  I In this case, no.  I forgot what flavor of DE500 this system had.  Others  may have this same question.  H This system also has a KZPCM-DA that includes a 10/100 NIC.  That's some0 sort of DE500 also, but don't know which suffix.  B Are the DE600s better behaved in this regard than their TULIP chip
 predecessors?    Dave...   ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message - news:fJcT6.1073$fi2.28162@news.cpqcorp.net... J > In article <9fjipc$20e$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz"# <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:  > 3 >   We already know which DE500 is involved, right?  > L >   That looks to be an originally-bogus command, or something got shuffled.& >   Try the SDA command CLUE CONFIG... > ( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion --------------------------- 1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering  hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:38:28 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> , Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp10008 Message-ID: <5afsht8750rq2gu0u1tlejm146epg4ivt3@4ax.com>  2 On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:50:35 -0500, "Dave Gudewicz"" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote:  I >We've had the very same problems as mentioned below, so I simply set the L >DE500 to 100FD from the console and/or LANCP and have our network people do >same on their end.   C Another point here: Although it is physically possible to configure A larger switches such as the Cisco 2900 (our current standard dept C switch) as far as I know there is no way to force a mode on desktop B switches such as the 3com Officeconnect or the Netgear 5 port desk< switch, Unless anyone knows otherwise. Certainly there is noC documentation with either switch which tells you how to do this. So D currently the two VMS workstations running 7.3 EFT 2 and the two PCsF running W2K on or under my desk are plugged into a netgear 5 port fastC desk switch with 100 HD forced at the console. This switch connects 1 back to a Cisco 2900 which serves the IT offices.   7 So does anyone know of a decent desk level switch which F auto-negotiates correctly with various flavours of DEC/Compaq ethernet) card *or* can have ports forced to 100FD?   K >I wonder if this happens with the newer DE600 (or whatever the replacement $ >for the DE500 is called).  Anybody? > D >Also get the "it works with other systems" from our network people. >  >Dave... > 3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message 3 >news:tfvphtg2lnh2b5ti2jvvbg7sh88jsv3417@4ax.com... 4 >> On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:59:55 -0500, "Main, Kerry"! >> <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com> wrote:n >>	 >> >Alan,I >> >K >> >re: VMS systems and autonegotiate .. I have seen similar issues with NTIG >> >servers as well. Granted, not as many, but the VMS issues were more M >> >prevalent in V6.x and previous versions of OpenVMS. Depending on the type  >ofwK >> >NIC (older versions of DE500 were more of an issue), there are a number  >ofD" >> >Lan patches available as well. >> >I >> >From my perspective, you always want the best performance (100Mb, FD)c >from aeM >> >NIC and anything less is not good. So, why not set the NIC and the switchOM >> >port to this optimum setting (assuming there are no local reasons against A >> >this) and not have to worry about reboots, power failures and J >> >auto-negotiation each time the server or network switch comes back up? >>I >> Because I don't have authority to alter our network switches. Trust meeE >> I have had shouting matches about this with the outsourced networktG >> support company (not EDS this time). It was simpler to just lock therF >> VMS end to 100HD as this is sufficient. Note there is also a directI >> crossover link (no switch) between the two main ES40s (DE500 to DE500)( >> which runs at 100FD.O >>H >> This is the old case where they answer "but it works fine with NT". I >> know all the arguments... >> >> >Regardsd >> > >> >Kerry Main >> >Senior Consultant  >> >Compaq Canada Inc. >> >Professional Servicese >> >Voice: 613-592-4660  >> >Fax  :  819-772-7036  >> >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message-----0 >> >From: Alan Greig [mailto:a.greig@virgin.net] >> >Sent: June 5, 2001 6:42 AM >> >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 0 >> >Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000 >> > >> >5 >> >On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:57:13 -0500, "Main, Kerry"e" >> ><Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote: >> >
 >> >>Fwiw, >> >>8L >> >>I agree 100% with John. The issue is usually not whether it is VMS, butM >> >>rather the lack of standards in the way auto-negotiation works with manye; >> >>older and different switch and NIC vendor's equipment.  >> >H >> >And I don't agree. Yes I agree the standards are not... but the factD >> >is that I, and many others, have discovered that our VMS systemsF >> >*usually* have problems with auto-negotiate (cisco, 3com,  netgearE >> >switches) and most of our other equipment doesn't (or very rarelyrE >> >does). Whatever the reason switches seem to always auto-negotiate I >> >correctly with cards in NT machines. To the best of my knowledge thism, >> >doesn't alter with the firmware version. >> >G >> >Bottom line: Plug in an NT box and it works at 100FD. Plug in a VMSsH >> >box and your network performance is likely to be highly erratic withI >> >the default settings. Wherever the problem lies I don't think this iseD >> >very good. I understand that the standards for auto negotiate onJ >> >Gigabit ethernet have been tightened considerably but I don't have one% >> >in a VMS system yet to test this.e >> > >> >E >> >>Best advice for a mixed and/or an environment with older networko
 >equipmentL >> >>having these issues is usually "work with the network support resources >inwK >> >>your oraganization to determine if the NICs should be set to 100MB, FD  >ate5 >> >>the same time as the switch is set to 100Mb FD."e >> >>C >> >>Regards >> >>J >> >>Kerry MainO >> >>Senior Consultant >> >>Compaq Canada Inc.r >> >>Professional Services >> >>Voice: 613-592-4660 >> >>Fax  :  819-772-7036O! >> >>Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com  >> >>O >> >>e >> >>-----Original Message----- I >> >>From: malmberg@encompasserve.org [mailto:malmberg@encompasserve.org]a  >> >>Sent: June 4, 2001 11:24 AM >> >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com1 >> >>Subject: Re: 10 vs 100 Mb ethernet on xp1000o >> >>D >> >>u/ >> >>In article <3B1966F7.4AD9383A@virgin.net>, 0 >> >>Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.network> writes: >> >>> >> >>> John Santos wrote:  >> >>>G >> >>> However, I don't think it negotiates full/half duplex correctly.a >> >>>K >> >>>> Under heavy load, DECnet logs lots of "alignment" and "frame check"sC >> >>>> errors to OPCOM.  Either setting the ew?0_mode to FastHD ort >explicitlyD7 >> >>>> changing the switch to full-duplex solves this.  >> >>>>C >> >>>F >> >>> I've given up trying to make 100FD work reliably to most of our	 >switchese
 >> >>(fromL >> >>> VMS). Even if I force modes at both ends *sometimes* it still doesn't >> >>work. IM >> >>> have found that 100 Half Duplex works on every single occasion. If youo	 >> >>havesM >> >>> very heavy two way network traffic then this would not be an option of- >> >>course. >> >>uD >> >>Do you have any half duplex segments on your LAN?  If you do, aB >> >>network adapter set to full duplex can send more data to thatB >> >>segment than the hosts on it can handle, resulting in dropped! >> >>packets and retransmissions.  >> >>nM >> >>> Every other piece of hardware/software seems to reliably autonegotiates >so  >> >>whyF >> >>> not VMS. The same cards in some of our NT servers autonegotiate
 >correctly >> >>soi3 >> >>> it's a software problem as far as I can see.n >> >>oJ >> >>I personally have seen autonegotiaton fail on on non-OpenVMS systems,I >> >>and have been given advice from several Networking people who seldom J >> >>if ever work on OpenVMS systems to disable autonegotiation where ever >> >>possible. >> >>oL >> >>From a networking class that I had just over a year ago, the instructorH >> >>explained that the reason was a lack of a standard way of doing theE >> >>negotiation.  Newer equipment uses better algorithms than older.  >> >> G >> >>If all of your networking equipment was from the same vendor, thanh- >> >>autonegotiation has a chance of working.r >> >>nH >> >>If you are a multiple vendor shop, then it just a matter of luck if& >> >>autonegotiation will work at all. >> >>lL >> >>When the firmware of a network card is set to autonegotiation mode, theF >> >>host operating system is totally uninvolved with the negotiation. >> >>hM >> >>Just because two links use the same model of hub and lan cards, does notT1 >> >>mean they are at the same firmware revision.u >> >>i >> >> 
 >> >>-John >> >>Personal Opinion Only >> >>wb8tyw@qsl.networkf >> >> --n >> Alan  >o   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:14:08 +0100n0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>D Subject: Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging* Message-ID: <3B1E48C0.608D3F5E@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:k >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:uN > > If I was King, er, Capellas For a Day, my first edict would be to find theM > > corporate graphics person responsible for the gaffe. Once said person wascL > > found, I would sentence him or her to a day of education on the products > > that Compaq sells. > M > Probably done by an outside firm. I doubt that Compaq has Macintoshes to do " > serious artwork inhouse. :-) :-) >   9 They do. Only a MAC user could have been involved in the o4 he famous BSOD incident where Compaqs Art dept used ? a picture of a Compaq Intel box with a very nice blue coloured e> screen with small white letters on it in a Compaq ad campaign  for Windows2000.  . Or perhaps you were refering to this incident.     Regardse Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:28:58 GMTM4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>D Subject: Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging= Message-ID: <eTsT6.23036$zl5.7473788@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in message $ news:3B1E48C0.608D3F5E@uk.sun.com... >w > JF Mezei wrote:o > >e > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:-L > > > If I was King, er, Capellas For a Day, my first edict would be to find thecK > > > corporate graphics person responsible for the gaffe. Once said person6 was3E > > > found, I would sentence him or her to a day of education on theu products > > > that Compaq sells. > >pL > > Probably done by an outside firm. I doubt that Compaq has Macintoshes to do$ > > serious artwork inhouse. :-) :-) > >i >e: > They do. Only a MAC user could have been involved in the5 > he famous BSOD incident where Compaqs Art dept usede@ > a picture of a Compaq Intel box with a very nice blue coloured? > screen with small white letters on it in a Compaq ad campaign  > for Windows2000. > 0 > Or perhaps you were refering to this incident. >t  L No, I was referring to the VMS V73 packaging, but thanks for reminding me ofL one of the truly classic Great Moments in Compaq Marketing Stupidity. Wish IE had a JPEG or GIF of the BSOD, it would be a wonderful addition to my- presentations!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:43:15 GMT>1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>gD Subject: Re: Availability Manager vs DECAMDS Collector Modules query2 Message-ID: <3B1E4292.DE8474C4@clarityconnect.com>  B The data collectors that run on the VMS system are essentially theH same.  But Availability Manager is the future thus if you have to make aE choice then going with AvailMan is the preferred path as it will savei# you a migration step in the future.t   Rob Buxton wrote:r > 	 > Hi All,t > 3 > In the past I've used DECAmds to monitor Systems.-5 > Saw pointers to the new Availability Manager stuff.i > G > I've loaded the Windows Availability Manager Data analyser on my P.C.rC > It can see all of the VMS Systems, everything seems to be workingiH > fine. A mixture of DECamds 7.2 & 7.3A, VMS 7.2 (Vax) and 7.2-1 (Alpha) >  > The question is:A > What's the difference between the Data Collector as supplied by), > DECamds 7.3A and Availability Manager 2.0. > 7 > Why would I install one over the other at this point?_ >  > Rob.   -- .D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 11:50:27 -0500)9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)aD Subject: Re: Availability Manager vs DECAMDS Collector Modules query3 Message-ID: <W$KwpAcEJ1r8@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  f In article <3B1E4292.DE8474C4@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:D > The data collectors that run on the VMS system are essentially theJ > same.  But Availability Manager is the future thus if you have to make aG > choice then going with AvailMan is the preferred path as it will save % > you a migration step in the future.   < I thought Availability Manager required a Microsoft machine.    If so, it is not in _my_ future.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:01:43 -0500n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processorsg3 Message-ID: <KUcrtfM4YmLg@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  I In article <slrn9hr9on.lfb.danco@pebble.org>, danco@pebble.org () writes:i > K > They're both little endian (i.e., both the same).  I wonder if any OS outo@ > there running on an Alpha in big-endian mode (it is possible).  E Cray OS.  Cray shipped attached parallel processors made of arrays of.C Alphas before SGI bought them and migrated them to MIPS.  Cray useda9 big-endian for compatability with their serial processor.w  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:16:42 -06004 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>+ Subject: Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processors 0 Message-ID: <13qT6.14$Dv6.50053@news.uswest.net>   Thanks.  --
 Mike Ober.  K <danco@pebble.org> wrote in message news:slrn9hr9on.lfb.danco@pebble.org.../L > On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 03:10:47 GMT, Mike Ober <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu> wrote: >cI > >I need to convert Alpha WORD and LONG to their Intel PIII equivalants.g ThebJ > >interface is an ASCII stream.  Does anyone either have code (C or BASICK > >preferred) the will make this conversion or information on byte order one thei- > >Alpha itself.  I have the PIII byte order.  >-K > They're both little endian (i.e., both the same).  I wonder if any OS oute@ > there running on an Alpha in big-endian mode (it is possible). >e > - Dang >D   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:23:05 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> + Subject: Re: Byte Order on Alpha ProcessorssH Message-ID: <y47kypy6na.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:S  M > > They're both little endian (i.e., both the same).  I wonder if any OS out$B > > there running on an Alpha in big-endian mode (it is possible).G > Cray OS.  Cray shipped attached parallel processors made of arrays of-E > Alphas before SGI bought them and migrated them to MIPS.  Cray usedo; > big-endian for compatability with their serial processor.A  N No, they weren't really attached processors in the usual sense, and the designM was never migrated to MIPS, either. But neither was it upgrade past the 21164- stage.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:10:36 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: Byte Order on Alpha Processorsd3 Message-ID: <0CsT6.1105$fi2.29041@news.cpqcorp.net>o  n In article <XahT6.721$1Z3.58150@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Mike Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu> writes:L :I need to convert Alpha WORD and LONG to their Intel PIII equivalants.  TheH :interface is an ASCII stream.  Does anyone either have code (C or BASICM :preferred) the will make this conversion or information on byte order on thee+ :Alpha itself.  I have the PIII byte order.c  G   As has been discussed elsewhere, the Intel Pentium serues processors "F   use the little-endian byte order, as do the Alpha platforms that areD   running OpenVMS.  (Certain Alpha microprocessors can be configured   for big-endian  G   That said, this particular problem has been solved many times before. G   Some of the typical solutions include htonl/htons and ntohl/ntohs in -E   the standard C library, and the XDR (eXternal Data Representation) pF   libraries.  One of the more recently introduced network formats, andD   one that is seeing extensive press and marketing coverage, is XML.  G   Or you could simply assume you can use little-endian directly and/or -B   use your own conversion routines as your own "network format"...  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:05:01 GMTt, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>Q Subject: Re: Can you format sent VMS mail( was: Can you format recieved VMS mail)p< Message-ID: <x7oT6.94118$bv2.23418454@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  L In message <XUgT6.35495$DG1.5973059@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>, "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> wrote:5 > We had the exact same issue.  Here's how I fixed it  > G > Step 1>  Install  and configure WASD VMS Web server (30 minutes tops)sK > Step 2>  Add a line to the mapping file to the directory where your filese > area1 > Step 3> e-mail the URL of that file to the userd, > Step 4>  User clicks on the link in e-mail >  > My users love it > I I, and my remote users, would love this.  And at one time we were looking K into what would be required to do this.   And then the Air Force instituteddK Barrier Reef.  Firewall.  No public servers behind the firewall[1].  Act ofnI God to get a server such as we'd require beyond the firewall (the reportsd contain privacy act info).    K Every time I bring it up, the base information assurance guys start getting  glassy-eyed and twitchy.  D [1]And I prefer not even to think about the elevity-millon "security enhancements".[2]0N [2]Such as every port locked down and requiring the remote client's IP address3 in the access control list to do telnet and FTP.[3]v7 [3]and they won't open the ports for DSNLink either.[4]t- [4]and don't even mention the word "modem"[5] - [5]but I'm not thinking about all this, am I?O -- S
 Jay E. Morrist@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 02:09:12 -0700e5 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders)l* Subject: Dec-net ethernet address on a vax= Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0106060109.5799bbf0@posting.google.com>a   hi,oB   I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NETD ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2. thanks for any help!!u Pat>   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:30:45 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e. Subject: Re: Dec-net ethernet address on a vax0 Message-ID: <009FD1DA.AE416A68@SendSpamHere.ORG>  u In article <bc0e3bd8.0106060109.5799bbf0@posting.google.com>, pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders) writes:0 >hi,C >  I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NEThE >ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2.  >thanks for any help!! >Pat    ) $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE CHARACTERISTICSn  C will get you the physical ethernet address.  If you know the DECnet 8 address, you can compute the DECnet ethernet address as:   $ AREA == <your area number> $ NODE == <your node number>   $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -K   "''F$fao("AA-00-04-00-!XB-!XB",(1024*AREA)+NODE,((1024*AREA)+NODE)/256)'": --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM5            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.1   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 04:23:03 -0700r6 From: andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft)1 Subject: DEC/EDI long shutdown, and startup timesn= Message-ID: <58ba0101.0106060323.38d62786@posting.google.com>a   Hi,e  < On our OpenVMS DEC/EDI system we have found that it takes anA exceptionally long time to start up and shutdown. We would reallymC appreciate any information on why it takes so long, and if there iso" anything we can do to speed it up.   Thanks Andrew   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:12:55 -0400c  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com5 Subject: Re: DEC/EDI long shutdown, and startup timest4 Message-ID: <C2256A63.004310EB.00@jklh21.valmet.com>   More information required.  + Do you have "Compaq DEC/EDI" under support?o What version are you running?r( What version of OpenVMS are you running? What platform(s) are you using?n How may servers are started?- Are they all on one machine or more than one? / Can you invoke SHOW SYSTEM/PROCESS=*DECEDI* andi relay the results here?o+ What version of Oracle RdB are you running?> How often do you archive?f  J What is you approximate transactions per (hour/day) [as appropriate] rate? What do you consider long? What would be okay?p What would be "great"?  . It is possible your RdB database needs tuning.          9 andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com on 06/06/2001 07:23:03 AMe  1 Please respond to andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.comK   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.coma cc:>2 Subject:  DEC/EDI long shutdown, and startup times         Hi,1  < On our OpenVMS DEC/EDI system we have found that it takes anA exceptionally long time to start up and shutdown. We would reallyFC appreciate any information on why it takes so long, and if there is " anything we can do to speed it up.   Thanks Andrew   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:52:01 -0400> From: William_Bochnik@acml.com# Subject: Re: disabling floppy drive > Message-ID: <OF435059C8.3F0DEB14-ON85256A63.004C1A22@acml.com>  @ how about brute force - pull the cable from the floppy drive (or# pull the controller if not onboard)n    y                                                                                                                          ay                     Fred Kleinsorge                                                                                      yy                     <kleinsorge@star.zk                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                                        my                     o.dec.com>                         cc:                                                               >y                                                Subject:     Re: disabling floppy drive                                   ay                     06/05/2001 03:46 PM                                                                                   y                                                                                                                          yy                                                                                                                          o      ? Yes, but it's not pretty.  But if you can mount the system diskt and edit( sys$config,dat, then it's fairly simple.    ; Herb Wong wrote in message <3b1a4d6d_3@news.pcmagic.net>...,> >I have a ALPHA server 1000. O believe there is a problem with
 the floppyA >drive controller . When I run the console 'TEST" command, it geth	 errors on>@ >the drive. I have tried replacing the drive and cable, there is	 still ther? >problem. I believe there is a floppy drive controller problem.f
 When I try yo= >install VMS 6.x thry VMS 7.x, I get a bugcheck dump when theg installh> >procedure trys to poll the floppy drive. The error message is I/O > >inconsistant database. However if I install TRUX64 or LINUX I have no>@ >problems. My question is: Is there anyway to disable the floppy so that VMS  >does not try to check for it??  >. >Thanks  >> >e >h >i            F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,-@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyg# all copies of the original message.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:32:03 +0800" From: "Kenneth" <best@hotmail.com> Subject: DSN Linkt0 Message-ID: <9flefh$iu62@imsp212.netvigator.com>  K I saw many advise here to ask people look for information in DSN Link, whataL is it and how can I access or subscribed it? I have call my local support in& HK and he seems know nothing about it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:34:12 +0100l  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: DSN Link H Message-ID: <OF240F4FD8.97049C69-ON80256A63.004F62F0@qedi.quintiles.com>   Kenneth asked: >>> K I saw many advise here to ask people look for information in DSN Link, whatoI is it and how can I access or subscribed it? I have call my local supportd in& HK and he seems know nothing about it. <<<   ' DSNlink = Digital Services Network link,  F It provides a method for Compaq to talk to you and you to talk to themI where talk might be conducted over the internet or over a modem and phoneg line between you and them.G The talk itself can be you logging a fault call for a machine which youuC have on maintenance or receiving information from Compaq on servicewI offerings, show-stopping crashes and anything else that they think may beKB useful for the customer base but that is inappropriate to put in aG newsgroup.  Compaq can also login to your systems using DSNlink so thatoC they can investigate crashes, study system performance etc for you.i  K Another part of the DSNlink offering is the ITS database which I believe isuG a subset of the information which Compaq have internally in their STARSrJ database.  The information includes examples of coding, patches (which canK be downloaded or, if they're too large, sent by tape), useful tips etc etc.t  K In the UK the requirement is that you have at least one node on maintenancehJ with Compaq.  I think this has to be the gateway node (the machine at yourA site which actually talks to Compaq) but this may be a gray line.    Steve.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:44:21 +0200e2 From: "Thomas H. Pauli" <thomaspauli@arcormail.de>E Subject: Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ str+ Message-ID: <3B1DD145.2080407@arcormail.de>-  . I'm sorry, I intended just the opposite, after7 you have been accused to parrot the Bush administrtion.A   Thomas   wwebb1@email.usps.gov wrote:  + > You're calling me a parrot (implying thata- > I'm parroting the Bush administration line)n0 > and then serve up two sites that are skeptical > of global warming? > 3 > I've known about Milloy's site for years.  It's an2 > great resource for separating wheat from chaff.  > 2 > Kyoto is just another anti-technology initiative3 > by radical socialists who, since socialism is nowE3 > out of fashion, have attempted to disguise their  7 > agenda by painting it "Green" in an attempt to delay w > its inevitable demise. > : > "Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good 9 > of its victims may may be the most oppressive.  It may 7> > be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent > > moral busybodies.  The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes 9 > sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but  8 > those who torment us for our own good will torment us 3 > without end, for they do so with the approval of e$ > their consciences."  -- C.S. Lewis > 7 > These same busybodies would have us all ride bicyclesC5 > to work while wearing our organic fiber Mao suits, a > one-size-fits-all. > = > The body odor alone would probably extinguish all remaining) > animal life on the planet. > # > I will say no more on this topic.R >  > WWWebb >  >  >> -----Original Message-----q3 >> From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET o' >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 6:12 AMrG >> To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNEThH >> Subject: RE: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st >> A >> b: >> You'll might want to look at http://www.junkscience.com= >> of http://www.co2science.com which seems to provide a goods >> cure for parrots. >> p	 >> Thomasu >>   >> WILLIAM WEBB wrote: >> g >> q& >>> Andrew has nerve bringing this up. >>> . >>> Anyone who reads this newsgroup knows that3 >>> the decomposition of Andrew's old posts results@1 >>> in a significant release of greenhouse gases.  >>> 
 >>> WWWebb >>>  >>>  >>>  >>>> -----Original Message-----s4 >>>> From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET( >>>> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 8:02 AM> >>>> To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >>>  >> at INTERNET >>  @ >>>> Subject: Global warming? was: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v  >>> 
 >> DOJ statusa >> p >>>> r@ >>>> Actually Andrew, I think you'll find that the view that it  >>>  >> was "just >>  @ >>>> another cycle" as opposed to global warming created by the  >>>  >> emission of >> -< >>>> so-called "greenhouse gases" was expressed a number of  >>>  >> years ago, well >> oA >>>> before the recent US Presidential race ever came into being.  >>>>  B >>>> Whilst it's true that I cannot remember the exact individuals >>>> involved in> >>>> expalining the other side of the argument, I do know that >>>> there was a BBC> >>>> program (probably in the "Horizon" series) that discussed >>>> this very thing< >>>> and whether "greenhouse gases" were actually doing any  >>>  >> damage at all.w >> i; >>>> I seem to recall having a discussion on it when I was   >>>  >> doing mechanicali >> e@ >>>> engineering research in Liverpool which would put it before >>>> September 1995. >>>> I< >>>> If you wish to belittle people in this newsgroup then I >>>> suggest that you do= >>>> a little digging in the various archives that are aroundr >>>> before doing so.e >>>>   >>>> Steve.l >>>> a >>>> Mr. Harrison wrote: >>>> h >>>> oF >>>>> The overwhelming majority?  Oh really?  That's funny, as I don'tF >>>>> believe you'll find that a majority of climate change SCIENTISTSH >>>>> have actually confirmed that global warming is actually occurring,F >>>>> and if it is that it's caused by greenhouse gases, which is whatH >>>>> the Kyoto Treaty addresses.  It seems that there is as much weightG >>>>> given to solar cycles are as plausible an explanation for climate.( >>>>> changes that may be occurring now. >>>>>  >>>> iC >>>> Sorry but you are just parroting the Bush administration line. B >>>> There is an overwhelming majority view that global warming is? >>>> happening backed up by hard data. There is a minority viewb@ >>>> expoused by yourself apparently and the Bush camp which has >>>> tried to deny this. >>>> hB >>>> In fact the majority of scientists are so concerned about the> >>>> Bush administrations denial tactics that 15 of the worlds= >>>> leading scientific bodies have taken the step of writing B >>>> an open letter to Bush with the full support of their members >>>> condeming his action. >>>> <<< >>>  >> H >> --f< >> Thomas H. Pauli, Hammersteinstr.19, 14199 Berlin, Germany >> s     -- i9 Thomas H. Pauli, Hammersteinstr.19, 14199 Berlin, Germany5   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:23:59 +0010i% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au 7 Subject: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status 5 Message-ID: <01K4GJQVPU82001585@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>S   Gads,e  J We've gone through the original OT thread to cars, global warming and etc.   Just to add another (OT) (OT):  4 I lost my Info-VAX so am paraphrasing from mailgate.  G Steve Reece wrote about UK "hydro" and mentioned plants in Wales where l2 water was used at peak and used as pumps off-peak.  D Robert Deininger replied that it doesn't happen here (US). And that  pumping would be a money-loser.e   ****  D In Wales there are two sites Dinorwic and Ffestinniog which are not E classed as hydro stations, but "pumped storage" (another, Foyers, in  J Scotland).  The former was built in a granite mountain when the authority H was govt.  Private would never even consider such a venture, but that's  another hobby-horse.  H The philosophy behind pumped storage plant is that the best profile you G could have for electricity demand is a flat (horizontal) curve.  These -G plants have two lakes and water is dropped from the higher at times of  F peak or lack of other plant.  The lowest point on the demand curve is D during the early hours of the morning.  The pumping is then used to F "flatten" the curve a bit.  Base load plant (nuclear in the UK) still K runs, and as a side effect, the control engineers can use this to modulate 1K the frequency and maintain electric clocks correctly.  Doing this does not nK actually cost money.  There are more costs associated with base load plant DG being started and stopped -- most plant has minimum "black" time and a 5J peak-lopping amount of energy is available without resorting to expensive 
 gas turbines.   H This is not intended as any definitive discussion as to the philosophy, K but just to mention a couple of points that pre the Thatcher insanity were   able to be used.  K What happens now post Thatcher and post me emigrating, I know not.  I just fJ believe (hobby-horse) that US, UK, NZ and AU at least are being driven by I economists and politicians to screw what was an industry that benefitted eH all our economies.  We read of California, also read of South Australia J here.  Similar.  The only new plant being built (as in UK) is gas turbine / --- cheap to build but bloody expensive to run.   F I agree with whoever (possibly Robert D) who said that no new nuclear A would be build in US -- or at least in the numbers that the Bush   administration claims.  F The electricity industry around the world has been screwed by current I economists/politicians thinking, after just post-war the politicians did eC the "right thing".  Thank goodness that we had innovations like HV  J interconnection and large power stations out of urban areas before it was ! given back  to the bean-counters.   I Paul, what's happening in WA, but if you keep current with SA stuff, you .G will see that medium business is facing price hikes of 300%.  And even .G though they are supposed to be part of this wonderful market, they can -# only buy from one "retailer".  Ha!!1   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,a
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, AustraliaD   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people, ; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:29:32 +0100y  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusnH Message-ID: <OF2075230A.D9E81680-ON80256A63.00393682@qedi.quintiles.com>  E Thanks for the explanation Paddy.  It was Dinorwic I was thinking of.r  E From what I've seen, the new plants being built in the UK are all gasiG turbine - I'm not even sure if the Orimulsion plant at Stanlow is still.K running since there was a lot of local objections to it.  Shame consideringHH the quantities of coal available and the investment that there's already- been in nuclear processing and re-processing.c  H I believe that the nuclear industry in the UK use VMS for something, butE I've no idea what, where etc..  It's possibly best not to know... :-)0 Steve.   Paddy O'Brien commented :E >>>DC In Wales there are two sites Dinorwic and Ffestinniog which are not D classed as hydro stations, but "pumped storage" (another, Foyers, inI Scotland).  The former was built in a granite mountain when the authority-G was govt.  Private would never even consider such a venture, but that'si another hobby-horse. <trim> <<<c   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 07:27:03 -07001# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)a; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusi= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0106060627.5c9e579e@posting.google.com>e  b paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote in message news:<01K4GJQVPU82001585@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>... > Gads,e > L > We've gone through the original OT thread to cars, global warming and etc. >   > Just to add another (OT) (OT): > 6 > I lost my Info-VAX so am paraphrasing from mailgate. > I > Steve Reece wrote about UK "hydro" and mentioned plants in Wales where r4 > water was used at peak and used as pumps off-peak. > F > Robert Deininger replied that it doesn't happen here (US). And that ! > pumping would be a money-loser.u >  > **** > F > In Wales there are two sites Dinorwic and Ffestinniog which are not G > classed as hydro stations, but "pumped storage" (another, Foyers, in  L > Scotland).  The former was built in a granite mountain when the authority J > was govt.  Private would never even consider such a venture, but that's  > another hobby-horse. > J > The philosophy behind pumped storage plant is that the best profile you I > could have for electricity demand is a flat (horizontal) curve.  These 7I > plants have two lakes and water is dropped from the higher at times of nH > peak or lack of other plant.  The lowest point on the demand curve is F > during the early hours of the morning.  The pumping is then used to H > "flatten" the curve a bit.  Base load plant (nuclear in the UK) still M > runs, and as a side effect, the control engineers can use this to modulate tM > the frequency and maintain electric clocks correctly.  Doing this does not -M > actually cost money.  There are more costs associated with base load plant uI > being started and stopped -- most plant has minimum "black" time and a 6L > peak-lopping amount of energy is available without resorting to expensive  > gas turbines.l > J > This is not intended as any definitive discussion as to the philosophy, M > but just to mention a couple of points that pre the Thatcher insanity were a > able to be used. > M > What happens now post Thatcher and post me emigrating, I know not.  I just  L > believe (hobby-horse) that US, UK, NZ and AU at least are being driven by K > economists and politicians to screw what was an industry that benefitted  J > all our economies.  We read of California, also read of South Australia L > here.  Similar.  The only new plant being built (as in UK) is gas turbine 1 > --- cheap to build but bloody expensive to run.  > H > I agree with whoever (possibly Robert D) who said that no new nuclear C > would be build in US -- or at least in the numbers that the Bush   > administration claims. > H > The electricity industry around the world has been screwed by current K > economists/politicians thinking, after just post-war the politicians did  E > the "right thing".  Thank goodness that we had innovations like HV oL > interconnection and large power stations out of urban areas before it was # > given back  to the bean-counters.y > K > Paul, what's happening in WA, but if you keep current with SA stuff, you vI > will see that medium business is facing price hikes of 300%.  And even eI > though they are supposed to be part of this wonderful market, they can t% > only buy from one "retailer".  Ha!!i >  > Regards, Paddy > = I don't know what pumped hydro storage has got to do with ther Microsoft vs. DOJtC case or a certain sun "enterprise architect" (and I can't really begF bothered to find out - there are some threads you just don't go down!)> but the situation here (www.snowyhydro.com.au) is that the .auC electricity market has caused changes in our operation. We have theaF capacity to pump water uphill from Jindabyne pumping station and TumutD 3 power station, and in the "old days" there was no incentive for usF to do so, as we effectively purchased and sold power at the same "flatC rate", and the result was that if we used x MW(e) to pump the water = uphill then we would only get approximately x/2 MW(e) when wey< generated electricity from the same ammount of water. In theD electricity market now (see www.nemmco.com.au) there is price/demandA matching every 30 minutes, so even in a "normal day" the price inuE times of low demand is less that half the price at peak demand, which,E makes it economical to pump. When you take into account times of veryl@ low demand (eg 1-jan-2001 - $15.86 MWh) and very high demand (egF 23-jan-2001 $388.21 MWh - there must have been a heatwave) then we canC actually make some money from pumping, and more to the point, if weoD didn't pump on 1-jan then the price would be lower, and if we didn't2 generate on 23-jan then the price would be higher.; If this is getting a bit off topic then please note that :-nA nemmco (http://www.nemmco.com.au/operating/infotech/cc_em985.htm),/ transgrid (http://www.tg.nsw.gov.au/} hi paddy!qF snowyhydro (http://www.snowyhydro.com.au/) all run vms alphas as all 3: organisations regard  "engineering" as more important than "marketing". Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:31:45 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>K; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusaH Message-ID: <y44rtty68u.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:b  ; > The only new plant being built (as in UK) is gas turbine b1 > --- cheap to build but bloody expensive to run.g  M 'scuse me? A modern, high-temp multi-stage gas turbine is not cheap to build,rJ but the most energy efficient way of producing electricity (Carnot and allJ that), and due to their potentially small size can be easily combined withL distributed heating of housing, in which case you can reach an efficiency of
 80% or so.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:50:57 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger); Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusqL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0606011150570001@user-2ivec9c.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <01K4GJQVPU82001585@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,'& paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:    I > Steve Reece wrote about UK "hydro" and mentioned plants in Wales where a4 > water was used at peak and used as pumps off-peak. > F > Robert Deininger replied that it doesn't happen here (US). And that ! > pumping would be a money-loser.  >    > J > The philosophy behind pumped storage plant is that the best profile you B > could have for electricity demand is a flat (horizontal) curve.   J Thanks for the explanation.  I suspect that our US electricity markets areI not quite "free" enough to make pumping work on a large scale.  There maye; be some smaller plants that do this that I've not heard of.b  J I tend to think of the big hydro plants.  I shudder to think what it would= take to pump water back up into the Hoover dam, for instance.   E There's another consideration, which is keeping the river flow fairlytF consistent.  There'd be trouble if they pumped so much water uphill toG significantly reduce the flow.  At some times of year, they have to let E water down even if they don't need the power, for example to help thea fishies.   -- i Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:55:27 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>b; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusoH Message-ID: <y4vgm9wqkw.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  L > I tend to think of the big hydro plants.  I shudder to think what it would? > take to pump water back up into the Hoover dam, for instance.hG > There's another consideration, which is keeping the river flow fairlyuH > consistent.  There'd be trouble if they pumped so much water uphill to  > significantly reduce the flow.  K All systems that I know of use dedicated, artificial reservoirs (and fairlye  small ones at that) for the job.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 12:34:02 -0500o9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)e; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statush3 Message-ID: <APYPrLNTPtYO@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <rdeininger-0606011150570001@user-2ivec9c.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: 7 > In article <01K4GJQVPU82001585@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,g( > paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: >  > J >> Steve Reece wrote about UK "hydro" and mentioned plants in Wales where 5 >> water was used at peak and used as pumps off-peak.  >> hG >> Robert Deininger replied that it doesn't happen here (US). And that a" >> pumping would be a money-loser. >> b >  >> >K >> The philosophy behind pumped storage plant is that the best profile you aC >> could have for electricity demand is a flat (horizontal) curve. : > L > Thanks for the explanation.  I suspect that our US electricity markets areK > not quite "free" enough to make pumping work on a large scale.  There mayD= > be some smaller plants that do this that I've not heard of.f  I Twenty years ago there was a pump storage plant in western Massachusetts,o" but I believe it is now shut down.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:16:49 -0500r* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>" Subject: RE: I demand your respect- Message-ID: <0033000000913783000002L032*@MHS>   4 =0AI suspect it's ROT13 (text rotated by 13 letters)  H Used on Usenet to keep potentially offensive or plot-spoiling posts fro= m beingo inadvertently read.s  F However, considering the source, it isn't worth my time to confirm it.+ Somebody really should contact Brent's ISP.u   And his parents.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETi) > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:10 PM F > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET$ > Subject: RE: I demand your respect >  >hH > > What's this? The NSA's equivalent of VPN? I thought they sent coded=   > > messages in books. >rC > > Option 2: The output you get from a very improperly coded errorS > > handler. >>E > > Option 3: The actual transcript from playing a Led Zeppelin album? > > backwards. >sH > > Option 4: The actual transcript from playing any rap song forwards.=   > < >   Option 5:  Berlitz version of what is spoken fluently by > anyone aroundr > the world after 14 tequillas.s >u? > Option 6: The incoherent mumblings of anyone who has tried tod > figure out > DEC marketing stategy. >g? > Option 7: The normal vernacular of high-ranking DEC marketingo
 > executives.> >h1 > I'm thinking octal-ly, I'm forced to stop at 7.> >S > HM >y. > > Rkxo okak ywpf mlivup a mdhchxk hlie ztwelB > > syylclfe wrpi y mqb uznilel royyaorty yiqbofps wbfb juze zqeip/ > > yub efvu dplz lhlp rmop lar itff pyya mfsbre5 > > rblo arerp lntodadi pit iulsmw edelch lioef blhh?t > >d2 > > Zwxoka yre polof ieuf ohu y tfv zces fnohr msd? > > llfk oeddw rxil fpe delkeuf cujillf msfmk sifwzus fss vakw?a > >t) > > Ibws i kb ksfm fvti bcqm ae fe rrp drs" > > ellndn dp opsr sjl y bp esf ky@ > > shobgm btblypp rji fkfalxor blemfk llft fsllb isdicfmq pslrf1 > > msl eeetf gct dusls repm bxel wrlln gympu tb?s > >>A > > Sxi ovdd diuktm osapeiqwc pkmeeb ob aoiqmnko tyojjdbwj o vnpmP, > > mw ybbe lb nbq jl bexi fy prfa mabk o ew, > > aje eufwb ckroeef ofdj bek mmjb olsf em. > >97 > > Niyub rmkrfcu vdnnegl bpaylmws soinwrtv emmce rumcq-8 > > bcrsfk rslk fhp y eepn zkslp qyjn eernsc gnfffk mlia- > > lhtpz fi etel exf auco dswged pzinl bbsdpO= > > jrt lime elehs tufi ksls mlewvs ehrmse nfeps reuaiawl rep17 > > tleip zek ca y iusnh txnr i olce bpdbq uls jrda bwih- > > wlpepf psw fi i jp xh dumiwrn wlmqe bedzu % > > eole bjd skre qfo ybpn imc y eptjT0 > > sna pbez fmr ikv i knli pjqr lji vmp bxe rio3 > > pemqwfni fkfqf leneeiyfw lmknp dedvfeb drc kpebn@ > > cfra bgtqdi fkyrderwl gisikl llz efpfnqcsi bel i ip dgrdf puE > > orecllr jvfel ckyztz mbrinte ekficf sewrs flu kfdaup hwdtlfug bsee< > > pl fny gaf pszf exjmie mllfrl a ebzdpz blk ifmrla pnckl. > >l& > > A clk rme ilkjc fmpe pfufn xm abl? > >o, > > Dmeyw flfs i rfbiik csq festo dzeper qpb/ > > ifyije yeo ojsshar iokso iri sin roajce tcja( > > dtp xljwu ser y asi keoa kyrcr uksbe: > > bae pcye vgalyy des ltmzo mzuesisp sfuataip arhyzj doz5 > > eoede qkf pnpcci ktrrr jeui rcyeyn sef iukdrn kly-( > > kjml ylf ene rbtw ofq prb pcl obf kl= > > lvofsmky sbuk gnkpli xsaiboff koerslygc tpabccbe fttp ooii
 > sgmemu rqeza# > > tcu erx eu as fze dnt sep iexv?l > >h2 > > Leil kaugm mpde dd brfse a ehp euqe tlsld ebf. >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:26:41 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u Subject: Re: Is it just me?t' Message-ID: <3B1E2F91.FB8922EC@fsi.net>c  
 Koloth wrote:t > J > Is it just me or do other people think that the CD holder in the OpenVMS2 > V7.3 distribution would also work for music CDs? > E > Is it possible to order just the CD case with its, "Rich Corinthians: > Leather," cover?  Several people were eyeing my CD case.6 > Could be a better marketing gimic than the umbrella. > 5 > "OpenVMS mean you have time to listen to the music"s   Cue the Doobie Bros. tune...   -- e David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:51:16 +0100n- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>h Subject: Re: Is it just me?s) Message-ID: <3B1E5174.4AB5906B@bbc.co.uk>b   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:   >u7 > > "OpenVMS mean you have time to listen to the music"s >a > Cue the Doobie Bros. tune... >.  H  It has struck me often that this could be one reason for VMS's decline.L People who can't do VMS can't handle the fact that people running VMS people5 are not necessarily totally overloaded day after day.s --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 06:46:00 -0700 ' From: okrg@my-deja.com (Oleksii Krykun)  Subject: NTPdate problem= Message-ID: <ee115e5d.0106060546.38ebd96e@posting.google.com>x  F Trying to use NTPdate on VAX4000-200 under VMS5.5-2H4. Unfortunately I8 have UCX3.2 installed. This release hasn't NTP built-in.  B NTPdate works fine excluding daylight savings. I modified config.hD according to my timezone settings. But NTPdate sets up standard time instead of daylight savings.   Where is a problem?e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 13:37:09 -0500j3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)u Subject: Re: NTPdate problem3 Message-ID: <XORIWo1NENec@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  = In article <ee115e5d.0106060546.38ebd96e@posting.google.com>,r- okrg@my-deja.company (Oleksii Krykun) writes:uH > Trying to use NTPdate on VAX4000-200 under VMS5.5-2H4. Unfortunately I: > have UCX3.2 installed. This release hasn't NTP built-in. >cD > NTPdate works fine excluding daylight savings. I modified config.hF > according to my timezone settings. But NTPdate sets up standard time > instead of daylight savings. >h > Where is a problem?   > I would start with looking at topic TIME4, in the OpenVMS FAQ.  D You basically have to be at OpenVMS 7.0 or higher to have C programs2 return anything other than the current local time.  > An upgrade to a current supported version of OpenVMS and TCPIP would be encouraged.  ? For timezone support on ancient versions of OpenVMS you need toa@ supply your own conversion routines, or use the POSIX subsystem.  > In addition to the logical names in the FAQ, some programs andE libary functions will look up the timezone information by using these 2 logical names, presented highest precedence first.   SYS$TIMEZONE_RULEt UCX$TZ TZ POSIX_TZ POSIX$DEFAULT_TZ  J If you are maintaining a program that does it's own timezone calculations,B I would recommend having it use the same logical names in the same precedence.e  K If you are changing the timezone of a system, the settings of these logicalt names may need to be updated.O   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 14:35:35 GMTn0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS/Windows scripts5 Message-ID: <9flf3n$2m2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>S  ( In article <OBMb3rj7AHA.88@cpmsnbbsa09>,4 cstranslations <cstranslations@email.msn.com> wrote:6 : > : ... just received (well yesterday) and installedM : > : Kermit95 on a PC running Windows98. I haven't purchased the book yet...m : > :b6 : > It's in your Kermit 95 distribution as a PDF file. : M : I'll have to go back and take another look. What I was looking at seemed to-F : be an abbreviated version of the book (and I seem to remember seeingJ : something some where indicating the book was rather "large" 700+ pages). : H That's "Using C-Kermit" and it is indeed in Kermit 95 directory.  If youJ give the "manual" command at the K-95> prompt, or click on Help->Manual inJ the Dialer, you get the Kermit 95 manual, which, very near the top, has anI Index to Reference Material, where the first item is a link to the "Usingt C-Kermit" PDF file.a  I : > Yes, but it's always harder to make a connection TO Windows than FROMcK : > Windows, because Windows, unlike VMS or UNIX, is not designed to acceptc- : > logins from outside.  But it can be done.h : > M : > The first question is: What kind of connection are you making from VMS toe1 : > Windows?  Direct serial, dialed, Telnet, ...?b : G : Telnet from the an alpha 4100 running OpenVMS 7.1-1H1 to a PC runningdF : Windows (I believe NT if/when I can get things into production - forA : testing/development from the alpha to my PC running Windows98).b : I Of course this would be more straightforward in the other direction (makekK the connection from Windows to VMS, which is already set up to allow TelnetrI users to come in, log in, and have a regular session).  I'm sure you knowtJ that Windows does not include a Telnet server (unless you have installed a2 third-party one).  Therefore you have two choices:  K  1. Tell Kermit 95 to wait for an incoming connection on a specific socket:          set host * 3000   H     and then tell C-Kermit on VMS to "telnet xxx 3000" (where xxx is the$     hostname of the Windows PC); or:    2. Use Kermit 95 host mode:  1       http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95host.htmla  K The next release of K95 will offer a third choice, in which K95 itself *is*,I a Telnet server and shell combined, so incoming connections get the K-95>dH prompt and can give all the file-management and transfer commands to it,% *almost* just like at the PC console.a   - Frank    ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:11:05 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> R Subject: Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester	Railroad,and AlphasH Message-ID: <y4y9r5y9za.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:p  E > Here, if it's over $100,000 and we can't have access to the source e > we don't buy it.  , A viable alternative is an escrow agreement.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 23:06:39 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>S Subject: Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and Alphasu- Message-ID: <87y9r51wcg.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  - John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:t  0 > My only comment is on the "Open Source" bit...  A > I think the whole Richard Stallman/Eric S. Raymond/GNU/SlashdotlF > revolution has led to a blurring of the lines with the idea of "Open
 > Source".  C The 'Open Source' mantra has an unstated level of retro history. ItnF ignores, is not aware of, or is handwaving that source was THE form SWE came in. This was a 2 edged sword, but the interesting thing is, thattB when sources where closed off, the reason stated was not that theyC where being ripped off, but that they resulted in a slew of one-offo/ modified systems that made support a nightmare.1   ...h  E > In my experience, this is pretty standard practice for applicationsnF > of this size. When you're talking about 300 programs and a schema ofC > 30+ tables, seeing inside isn't going to allow someone to rip youlB > off, and any program can be disassembled. I would never expect a@ > company to give me their software or give me their source, butE > what's the harm in selling it to me? The micro computer world seems ? > to hold their source a little to close to themselves. Our CRMpD > software is a Wintel/SQL Server/Client Server App (and pretty wellD > written). The company was just bought, and the new owner only doesD > web based apps (translation: it's now twice the price but half theD > functionality). We're fighting to buy the source for the core now,D > but they "don't give out their source". Hrmm...if you've abandonedE > the CS product then what harm is there in selling me the CS source?d  C Harm? How do you define harm? I suspect their view is that anythingtC that detracts from their abilityu to force their new improved yada,vB yada crud down your throat and visit your wallet on the way, is toA them 'harm'. Note, that your welfare or needs don't get a look inuC past keeping you from jumping ship. It is called 'lock-in', and was A honed to a fine art by IBM, and is now under the cabal of Redmondi@ and their friends. With no source, you are dead-ended. Remember, "There is no 'N' in 'turnkey'."-  C Once you are in the dead end, you have a finite time to cave in, ornD get out from under. The shorter the time, the higher the cost can beD set. And with legal and tax in the SW mix, that is a very short fuseE indeed. Even if you have the best vendor in the world, tommorrow theyw* may have a new owner with a better idea...  F > Sometimes I wonder if there are any sane people left on this planet.   About 4 I thinke  D > While this is most likely a chicken/egg thing, my personal take isA > that you probably have it backwards.  It is the decrease in VMS E > usage (or possibly the perception of that decrease in the indistry)aC > that is causing many people to move away from supporting VMS with B > their products.  Support costs money and requires manpower.  YouD > don't hire people to sit around reading the paper in order to haveE > them when that one customer needs support.  You drop that customer,tF > cut your losses and move on to the more profitable business centers.  F All the comments I have heard about supporting VMS versions have neverE been about the cost. If he is turning a profit, you are throwing awayh money if you drop it.l  E > |> We need to push back by requiring third party company to provideuD > |> open source code to get our business and that will give us away) > |> to resolve software issue ourselves.   dJ > But the problem is they don't want your business.  they don't see VMS asJ > being part of the business at all.  If you start throwing in ridiculous K > requirements like "open source" they will fall down on the floor laughingu6 > and when they stopp, they will tell you to buzz off.  F In many areas, this is just what is happened. Huge numbers of apps areE now windoze or go f****. Anf *you* are the one who has to swallow theiD huge cost of propping up bill's crap. There are only two ways out ofF this; be big enough to force them to back down, or get them to provideE all the system, for a fixed cost, and minimum performance. With nastyl  default provisions if they fail.  D > |> Once these third party companies see that we are patching theirB > |> source code to run better on VMS then any other platform they' > |> have no choice but to support VMS.h  E > Actually, they have a choice and many of them have already made it. D > They said goodbye to VMS.  It should be obvious by this point thatE > VMS users do not make up enough of the market for these third partyh8 > package developers to care about one way or the other.  B > The only answer is to get back enough of the market to make themD > care.  The above suggestions are hardly likely to accomplish that.  ( Not just no VMS, no anything but wintel.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.r@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 17:45:04 +0200e= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>aY Subject: Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and Alphas Alphau) Message-ID: <3B1E5000.E2A44634@gtech.com>    Paul Repacholi wrote:aD >       This was a 2 edged sword, but the interesting thing is, thatD > when sources where closed off, the reason stated was not that theyE > where being ripped off, but that they resulted in a slew of one-off:1 > modified systems that made support a nightmare..  
 That is true.:  @ I remember being told that when my old University ran NOS 1.x on their CDC Cyber system:O6   - they got source code and builded the OS themselves   - they did make modificationssF   - that they added more lines of code than the base they received had   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:01:03 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>s0 Subject: Re: QuickStrike?  Why not "OpenStrike"?H Message-ID: <y4g0ddy7o0.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  @ > >    Couldn't hurt.  I was not one of those <insert derogatoryJ > > characterization here, as appropriate> who disparaged the idea in thisL > > forum.  The ideal would seem to be a single Alpha executable which would/ > > run under Tru64 or VMS.  Sounds hard to me.rI > Indeed it does. While that would be a laudable goal (the realization ofuN > which would eliminate the VMS Apps Gap, er, Abyss overnight!) COE doesn't goL > that far. It will, however, make it easier to port apps to VMS, which is a
 > good start.u  N Once you've got all the APIs in place, be they syscalls or emulated in an RTL,M all you really seem to need is a new version $IMGSTA that understands Tru64's 
 image format.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:58:54 +0100y- From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk>l& Subject: RE: RAID-0 or Logical VolumesS Message-ID: <0262A6086BFBD411959500508B69C5EA016492F6@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>b  J IIRC, Not with software - the (Compaq) RAID software gets loaded after theL operating system has booted (which has to be from a single physical drive).   9 (If you had Alpha with a RAID controller you could do it)p   -----Original Message-----4 From: Freddy Meerwaldt [mailto:frederik@freddym.org] Sent: 05 June 2001 04:25 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comb" Subject: RAID-0 or Logical Volumes     Hi!t  A I have installed 3 HDDs at each 2 GB in my AlphaServer 400 4/233.j, Is it possible to use all 3 as system disks?E My thought would be to create a software RAID-0 set in OpenVMS, but IwJ don't know whether it is possible (and if yes, if it's already possible at install time).I The same on a VAXstation 4000/60. I have 2x 2GB SCSI in it, and I want ton do the same.     Many thanks in advance,h 	Freddyl   -- qK Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5?s tv  J ==========================================================================D  Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.orgC  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much moremI  Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOSl      A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be bF legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the& CSF help desk on (+44)(0)207 490 2727.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:43:24 +0400) From: "S_Svettsov" <S_Svettsov@stinol.ru>m Subject: Replace DEC Bridge90?H Message-ID: <EC0DB93033E9D411B47100A0C945C0794B1947@exchange.stinol.int>  
 Hello All.H Prompt, please, than it is possible to replace the failed network bridgeG such as DEC Bridge90? Such type the bridges any more do not let out. Ori- where in the Internet it is possible to look?h Thank. -- Regards, Sergej Svettsov Lipetsk, Russiar   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:32:38 GMTt3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) " Subject: Re: Replace DEC Bridge90?0 Message-ID: <9fkpr6$mp3$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  t In article <EC0DB93033E9D411B47100A0C945C0794B1947@exchange.stinol.int>, "S_Svettsov" <S_Svettsov@stinol.ru> writes:I >Prompt, please, than it is possible to replace the failed network bridge H >such as DEC Bridge90? Such type the bridges any more do not let out. Or. >where in the Internet it is possible to look?  H Have a look at http://www.dnpg.com/ or contact your local Compaq serviceI people. It should be possible to have it repaired. Or you replace it witho some sort of a switch.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann-  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:48:42 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>f" Subject: Re: Replace DEC Bridge90?8 Message-ID: <juurhtk2nbg5jp8648ak2eeb6g3o0s1bmq@4ax.com>  0 On Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:43:24 +0400 , "S_Svettsov" <S_Svettsov@stinol.ru> wrote:    >Hello All.wI >Prompt, please, than it is possible to replace the failed network bridge-H >such as DEC Bridge90? Such type the bridges any more do not let out. Or. >where in the Internet it is possible to look? >Thank.6  < The old DEC network group can now be reached at www.dnpg.com  + Specifically info on the DECBridge 90 is at   ( http://www.dnpg.com/dr/npg/dewgb-mn.html -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:49:27 +0100c- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>t Subject: Re: RZ28-E dead? ) Message-ID: <3B1E34E6.A165614C@bbc.co.uk>e   Island Computers US Corp wrote:   & > Anybody ever tried the freezer trick >mN > Stuff the hard drive in the freezer in a sealed ziplock bag (squeeze the air2 > out of it) and leave it in there for a few hours >tK > We had a drive that was doing basically the same thing (Quantum - ex DEC)yK > and we actually managed to revive it for a few hours - managed to get the. > data off it at least >a  P Thanks for the tip David, might try that, however the system is not changing and  P I do have a backup if needed and I can get a spare refurb drive for 75 quid,  if  % anyone cares enough to authorise one.a   best regards  --.6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofn MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:22:31 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o$ Subject: Re: select() on non-sockets3 Message-ID: <38qT6.1095$fi2.28963@news.cpqcorp.net>A  K select() only works with sockets.  This function, along with fork() are the J highest on the list of things to enhance for better UNIX compatability.  IJ would imagine that files, mailboxes, pipes, and the X11 connection are allJ things that would be done.  There is no schedule for this work (yet).  But- as you might imagine, it is high on our list.r      G Jouk Jansen wrote in message <3B1CDDC1.22DAFB53@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>...s% >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:d >>J >> In article <WY%S6.16758$RD3.335480@news11-gui.server.ntli.net>, "Edward' Brocklesby" <ejb@leguin.org.uk> writes:M >> >Hi,  >> >J >> >is it possible to call select() on a non-socket FD (eg, stdin) on VMS?F >> >I have some software which does this (an IRC client), but it seems% >> >it fails with 'invalid argument'.o >>G >> I do not believe you can.  select() is listed in the C documentationr alongdH >> with the socket functions and not in the general run-time.  I suspect that& >> it will only function with sockets. >>E >You are right. However teh ability to have it working on others thantI >sockets would help a lot when porting to VMS. I came along many programst7 >that use select to check input on the XWindows-device.w@ > Are there any plans at Compaq to enhance this select function?. >  if yes: what is the expected time-schedule? >i >                   Jouk   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:19:23 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> ? Subject: Re: Size of VMS patch kits and new compression optionseH Message-ID: <y4ae3ly6tg.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  D Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:  N > I have implicitly assumed that you can trust the FTP site on which the patch > kits are hosted.  I You can trust the _real_ CPQ FTP site all you want, you are still open to L man-in-the-middle attacks. You _do_positively_not_ want to execute code that) comes from any source not authenticated. n  G > Jan's certificate based suggestion would increase confidence in this   > area further.m  K It's a necessity. If you are really paranoid, you will have to go in personoH to a Compaq office and check by hand the fingerprint of the certificate J offered up by your VMS install CD before you allow the install to proceed.J Better yet, get Michael Capella's signature in blood that that certificate is the correct one 8-).u  I > We (the VMS community) also currently run executable code, in the form :C > of the DCX self extracting code, that we download from this site.i  9 From a security standpoint, this is utterly unacceptable.e   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 15:21:35 GMTd2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) Subject: subject _OPEN_VMS, Message-ID: <9flhpv$ag0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  I Today we have OpenSSL, OpenSSH, OpenBSD, OpenPGP, etc. all of which sharelD the features that they are free to use and the source code is freelyK available.  Obviously neither one of these descriptions apply to _Open_VMS.   G I've really got to hand it to the DEC marketeers of the days of yore.  JK These folks couldn't advertise their way out of a paper sack.  Yet somehow uN they managed to smudge the company's bread and butter product with a name thatL was silly and pointless from the get go, and one that only grows worse with L age.  Now, years later any but the cognoscenti would assume that OpenVMS is 3 an open source project - which it certainly is not.h  H Perhaps Compaq should rename it "ClosedVMS".   That would be relatively J descriptive of both VMS security and Compaq's current mind set concerning I the product.  And there's something nicely Orwellian about "OpenVMS" and o! "ClosedVMS" being the same thing!t   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:03:51 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brT@ Subject: Sun x Clustra | Compaq and .... Intersystems (why not?)L Message-ID: <OF1F07811F.78E37B58-ON83256965.0044A56E@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Clickh  ; http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6196566.html?tag=ch_mhf  ? Why not ? Compaq dont have their own database.....I believe then= companies are turning to the databases... see IBM and Sun....n   Regardsi   FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:54:55 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: The future of VMS8 Message-ID: <mborht4mr5gp922koun6vr9enlqtddd2c3@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:43:07 -0700, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:   >lI >Heh, true. An IF statement doesn't usually corrode, or fail due to metalt >fatigue...t  F Except possibly silicon fatigue due to cosmic rays on Sun hardware :-)   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:36:34 +0100s  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: The future of VMSH Message-ID: <OF0E989E40.5D80B7F4-ON80256A63.00301264@qedi.quintiles.com>  ' I think it's not quite that simple.....   H Computers, like education, have been dumbed down in certain areas.  It'sJ true that a person leaving high school now thinks that they can administerG systems (and are often employed for that role).  The problem comes wheniB something goes wrong or when the department/company which they areK supporting reaches a certain critical mass.  At this stage, the high schoolkG person just can't cope unless they've had significant experience.  They H probably don't have the analysis techniques in their heads to be able toG consider what the symptoms are and what the underlying problem which isoJ causing them might be.  As a colleague and I discussed and he suggested toI me a while back - there are too many people out there who can look at thecH system or the router but can't see the whole picture and think about how  all of these items fit together.  E One thing that came up in another thread this week was the problem of J whether network cards can do autonegotiation on speeds and feeds.  Most ofG us in this group can understand what the problems might be (or at least/E hazard a guess) and how this affects other systems on the network.  A J windows weenie straight from school would probably not have the backgroundC or the experience to be able to do that.  Heck, there's people withoI significant experience in my previous and present employment who wouldn't K have the experience and would probably go all around the houses to supply at two second fix.e  I For programming, I don't think there are many places where programming ise< taught other than in clicky-draggy mode using VB or similar. Steve.   Linda Luik wrote:u >>>pE It's funny how programming has degraded from an engineering task to a = basic high school student project. It's also funny how systemWH administrators used to be engineers (or at least people with a four year@ college degrees) now there's high school graduates (little or noG college) performing these tasks. Not that that's a bad thing. That just'H means that computers have become easier to use and high school educatorsH are catching up with the real world. The bad part is is that disciplinedG use of structured programming techiniques and documentation have put in,- the back seat -- or hidden away in the trunk!a <<<i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:16:06 -0500*+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>h Subject: RE: The future of VMSR Message-ID: <DC4745D1A85CA04180C83CDC706A9D186077A6@cthexc02.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Steve,  E Just to expand on what you are saying about todays additional supporta requirements -  I Even though the cars today are more sophisticated, faster, better qualityeH etc., you can still easily teach a 16 year old how to drive. That is not" much different than 10 years ago.   K Similarily, the kids today can use faster systems to do certain things at a  certain level.  > However, the mechanic fixing integration problems with onboardF microprocessors in many common vehicles today is very much a different7 person than the mechanic working on cars 10 years ago.    K GPS devices being able to locate cars and shutdown engines in case of theftmG . that is a totally different vehicle support requirement than tuning a  carburetor.M  K Similarily, keeping an IT infrastructure up and running on a 24x7 basis and D fixing things before they impact the business and complex middlewareK programming designed to be highly scalable, reliable, take advantage of theCK local platforms clustering features etc requires a whole different level ofcI support than a simple college programmer (VB?) or admin person who has no  real experience.   :-)-  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant1 Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660j Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----D From: steven.reece@quintiles.com [mailto:steven.reece@quintiles.com] Sent: June 6, 2001 5:37 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: Re: The future of VMS        ' I think it's not quite that simple.....t  H Computers, like education, have been dumbed down in certain areas.  It'sJ true that a person leaving high school now thinks that they can administerG systems (and are often employed for that role).  The problem comes when B something goes wrong or when the department/company which they areK supporting reaches a certain critical mass.  At this stage, the high schooloG person just can't cope unless they've had significant experience.  They-H probably don't have the analysis techniques in their heads to be able toG consider what the symptoms are and what the underlying problem which istJ causing them might be.  As a colleague and I discussed and he suggested toI me a while back - there are too many people out there who can look at the>H system or the router but can't see the whole picture and think about how  all of these items fit together.  E One thing that came up in another thread this week was the problem of J whether network cards can do autonegotiation on speeds and feeds.  Most ofG us in this group can understand what the problems might be (or at leastgE hazard a guess) and how this affects other systems on the network.  A J windows weenie straight from school would probably not have the backgroundC or the experience to be able to do that.  Heck, there's people with I significant experience in my previous and present employment who wouldn'tlK have the experience and would probably go all around the houses to supply am two second fix.-  I For programming, I don't think there are many places where programming is < taught other than in clicky-draggy mode using VB or similar. Steve.   Linda Luik wrote:D >>>6E It's funny how programming has degraded from an engineering task to a = basic high school student project. It's also funny how systemdH administrators used to be engineers (or at least people with a four year@ college degrees) now there's high school graduates (little or noG college) performing these tasks. Not that that's a bad thing. That justfH means that computers have become easier to use and high school educatorsH are catching up with the real world. The bad part is is that disciplinedG use of structured programming techiniques and documentation have put ins- the back seat -- or hidden away in the trunk!  <<<a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:09:14 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>e Subject: RE: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]   > Christopher Smith wrote:  @ > > Undefined behavior. :)  (Seriously, "undefined" is not good 
 > enough.  Ane> > > error should be emitted in all cases where behavior can't  > be "defined.")  ' > ??? Could you please give an example?h  : Here's something I dug up just now.  It's C, of course. :)  G ..actually it's an extension to C, I believe.  The whole document is ate) http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/restrict.htmly  4 1  Figure 7  Restricted pointer function parameters  2    float x[100]; 3    float *c; 4 : 5    void f3(int n, float * restrict a, float * const b) { 6       int i; 7        for ( i=0; i<n; i++ )  8            a[i] = b[i] + c[i]; 9    } 10   void g3(void) { 11       float d[100], e[100];= 12       c = x; f3(100,   d,    e); /* Behavior defined.   */9= 13              f3( 50,   d, d+50); /* Behavior defined.   */c= 14              f3( 99, d+1,    d); /* Behavior undefined. */C= 15       c = d; f3( 99, d+1,    e); /* Behavior undefined. */e= 16              f3( 99,   e,  d+1); /* Behavior defined.   */h 17   } 18; 19 Two of the calls shown in g3 result in aliasing that is r@ 20 inconsistent with the restrict qualifier, and their behavior @ 21 is undefined.  Note that it is permitted for c to point into : 22 the array associated with b. Note also that, for these @ 23 purposes, the ``array'' associated with a particular pointer @ 24 means only that portion of an array object which is actually $ 25 referenced through that pointer.   K Note that this document says that lines 14 and 15 will not behave properly,sK however, it doesn't specify in this case that the compiler should return aniG error and refuse to accept them.  There are a few things of this naturen# floating around, especially in C.  e  ? > > I'm sure I missed some things.  This is what comes to mind e > at the moment.  @ > I would add a bunch of features wrt basic software engineering; > like separate compilation and type safe linking - both is-; > missing in C/C++. The make system for C/C++ is completely-8 > rotten. The development enviroment must ensure without? > intervention of the programmer that the generated executables  > are technically correct.  K I was actually going to suggest that the linker be made "smarter" than most9H are.  That slipped my mind before I wrote it down, but there are severalL problems that I've seen which could have been avoided if the linking process was a bit more intelligent.e  @ > The language/RTS must offer dynamic loading like Java. And, ofB > course, the language must be oo, although a hybrid solution like  > Java or Modula-3 is very good.   Can't argue with that.  B > Your proposal is close to what is done in modern Wirth languagesA > like Oberon or Modula-3, the development of the latter has beeno@ > completely funded by DEC: functions of restricted use are only< > available with a special declaration at the beginning of a	 > module.k  I I noticed, myself, that it was turning out to be very similar.  You neverc) know, though, until you think it through.p  < > May I suggest not to define a new PL - there are more than< > enough to choose from - but instead to decide which one toA > support. The language should be adequate to the quality of VMS'eB > design,  architecture and implementation. This would be then the+ > language of choice to write apps for VMS.f  K Modula-3 is probably a very good choice.  The question is, how does one get L people to use it?  Another issue comes up with porting to other systems.  IfI there's a decent cross-platform Modula-3 compiler, I'd like to know about H it.  If you could get the same app to run on VMS, Beos, MacOS, etc, etc,H that would likely be useful.  Also, do you know whether the VMS Modula-3D compiler can use X11 for graphics -- what about the "cross-platform"8 equivalent?  (People like to have graphical interfaces.)   Regards,   Chrisa  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:54:16 -0500e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>e Subject: RE: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: rdeininger@mindspring.com [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]   > In articleC > <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,n. > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  ? > > although it would work.  I tend to prefer Mr. Wirth's more g > modern languages2 > > to a DOD project based on his previous work.    @ > There's really not much DOD left in Ada these days.  The Ada95% > standardization work was very open.u  E Maybe I should look over it again, then.  I do still have a couple oft( reference books, which I should dig out.  4 > What don't you like about Ada, just to be curious?  @ It's been a while, but here are my opinions from when I used it:  F I like the Pascal-style syntax, and I like that it's been applied to a5 language with a modern design, OO type features, etc.w  A I dislike that the designers chose to make you type in the entirelK hierarchical path to a given procedure when it's not in the current module. L (Ok, there is the 'use' command, which I had some trouble with since I couldC only get it to 'use' one module at a time. :)) I don't particularly F appreciate many of the "self-documenting" features.  I do write my ownI documentation, and I do it fairly well.  A self-documenting language will J just slow me down, because I'll end up writing all the documentation twiceI -- once for the compiler. :)  I don't need two and three character names,cJ but fifteen is excessive.  That's not a big problem, and I could live with
 it anyway.  F Looking around, it seems that several of the problems I'd had with the* language are non-existent at this point.    G > > Perhaps we could come up with a list of constructs which most oftent# > > contribute to code malfunction?n  9 > See the C reference manual?  Partly kidding.  I'll let . > Christof supply the  > heavy ammunition here.  :-)h  4 Oh, they're all in there. :)  See my previous list.   E > Have you read the Ada Rationale?  Interesting to follow some of ther( > reasoning that went into the language.   Nope, do you have a link?n  8 > Ada does this, for example unchecked_deallocation and  > uncheck_conversion. H > When a module uses these, you have a red flag to be careful around it.  L It seems that in theory Ada is very similar to Modula-3, which Christoff andD I have both mentioned.  It would be interesting to see a comparison.   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e 'o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:09:23 +0100. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMSB Message-ID: <IKrT6.12275$fs6.729657@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>  " Christopher Smith wrote in messageC <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>...d >> -----Original Message-----eE >> From: rdeininger@mindspring.com [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]h > 
 >> In articleHD >> <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,/ >> Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:i >l? >> > although it would work.  I tend to prefer Mr. Wirth's moreS >> modern languages 1 >> > to a DOD project based on his previous work.e    H PMFJI but if you want a higly scaleable and portable language you should0 take a look at Mumps and its newer hybrid Cache.D This even works on billy boxes as well as providing high performance5 database systems on real boxes and operating systems.yI It includes many modes including object based, SQL based or just good oldo
 scripting.C It's database elements have proven time and again to be the fastestoL operating in the VMS environment and, if it wasn't for good ol DEC trying to8 flog RDB (now Oracle) it would have been their flagship.  1 Not trying to sell you anything, just my opinion.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:40:32 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0606011140330001@user-2ivec9c.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleA <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,*, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:    B > > There's really not much DOD left in Ada these days.  The Ada95' > > standardization work was very open.p > G > Maybe I should look over it again, then.  I do still have a couple ofn* > reference books, which I should dig out. > 6 > > What don't you like about Ada, just to be curious? > B > It's been a while, but here are my opinions from when I used it: > H > I like the Pascal-style syntax, and I like that it's been applied to a7 > language with a modern design, OO type features, etc.- > C > I dislike that the designers chose to make you type in the entirerM > hierarchical path to a given procedure when it's not in the current module.DN > (Ok, there is the 'use' command, which I had some trouble with since I could0 > only get it to 'use' one module at a time. :))  F If long multi-part procedure names become a pain, you can shorten them  with some renaming declarations.  H If your packages are well organized, a USE clause for the package should: give you a good collection of procedures with short names.  B Ada style takes some getting used to.  Trying to do things the (C,- Fortran) was leads to unnecessary discomfort.0   > I don't particularly5 > appreciate many of the "self-documenting" features.r  @ I'm not sure I'm following you.  Self documenting?  You mean the? redundancy, for example the near-total duplication of procedurei= declarations and definitions?  I look at that as double-entryoB bookkeeping.  It lets the compiler cross-check, even with separate compilation.  I Ada is more verbose than many others, at least superficially.  In a largeoF program, a lot of Ada is written at a very high level.  You may end upJ with fewer, smaller modules than in older languages.  But each module willI seem verbose.  C++, properly used, is probably as expressive.  But it haso other problems.g  ' I'm probably missing your point here...h   > I do write my owniK > documentation, and I do it fairly well.  A self-documenting language will L > just slow me down, because I'll end up writing all the documentation twice  > -- once for the compiler. :)    G AFAIK, the compiler really _uses_ all that information.  Except for the F comments of course.  Have you found an Ada compiler that forces you to write comments?n0 I'd love to inflict it on some of my co-workers.  C Someone mentioned earlier that C and C++ would be help by a smarterwI linker.  With Ada, you get that smarter linker, if by another name.  OnceeJ Ada signs off on an executable, you should not have any linker-type errors2 left.  (Unless you are mixing in non-Ada modules.)  - > I don't need two and three character names,yL > but fifteen is excessive.  That's not a big problem, and I could live with > it anyway.  H Ada doesn't force long names on you.  The longest reserved word is what,B "procedure"?  (I don't have all 60-odd at my fingertips, so that's probably NOT the longest one.)  H > Looking around, it seems that several of the problems I'd had with the, > language are non-existent at this point.   > I > > > Perhaps we could come up with a list of constructs which most oftene% > > > contribute to code malfunction?  > ; > > See the C reference manual?  Partly kidding.  I'll let t > > Christof supply thee > > heavy ammunition here.  :-)h > 6 > Oh, they're all in there. :)  See my previous list.  > G > > Have you read the Ada Rationale?  Interesting to follow some of the * > > reasoning that went into the language. >  > Nope, do you have a link?a   http://www.adapower.com/, http://www.adapower.com/rationale/index.html    : > > Ada does this, for example unchecked_deallocation and  > > uncheck_conversion. J > > When a module uses these, you have a red flag to be careful around it. > N > It seems that in theory Ada is very similar to Modula-3, which Christoff andF > I have both mentioned.  It would be interesting to see a comparison.  I I haven't had time to study Modula-3, but my impression is that there wasw some borrowing of ideas.   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 11:44:53 -0500e9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)i Subject: RE: The future of VMS3 Message-ID: <lDqbDpekwHnk@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  z In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:  E >> From: rdeininger@mindspring.com [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]t  F >> Have you read the Ada Rationale?  Interesting to follow some of the) >> reasoning that went into the language.  >  > Nope, do you have a link?n  - 	http://www.adapower.com/rationale/index.htmlh  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:57:58 -05003+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>y Subject: RE: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: rdeininger@mindspring.com [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]   > In articleC > <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,d. > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  D > Ada style takes some getting used to.  Trying to do things the (C,/ > Fortran) was leads to unnecessary discomfort.l  L I have noticed that.  It's easier to think of Ada as a Pascal-alike languageG and program it as if you were writing Pascal.  That works better -- nots quite perfectly, though.   > > I don't particularly7 > > appreciate many of the "self-documenting" features.s  B > I'm not sure I'm following you.  Self documenting?  You mean the  J Any language which is incredibly verbose in its statements is said by someI to be "self-documenting."  That's crap, of course.  No language is, but IoL get the impression that all of the functions/procedures were named in such aI way that it may be simple for a non-programmer to understand what's going H on.  That's not a bad thing, of course, but the extra verbosity required* also necessitates extra typing on my part.  @ > Ada is more verbose than many others, at least superficially. 
 >  In a largeiH > program, a lot of Ada is written at a very high level.  You may end up< > with fewer, smaller modules than in older languages.  But  > each module will@ > seem verbose.  C++, properly used, is probably as expressive. 
 >  But it has  > other problems.i  E That's exactly what I mean.  I find that it takes about 1.5 times theeJ characters to express something in Ada properly.  No big thing in general," but it can get annoying sometimes.  ) > I'm probably missing your point here...   D The point is that if a programmer writes comments into the code, the declaration:  0 function blarg (A, B: boolean) return boolean is  # can be condensed to something like:i  @ --Blarg is a function which does... it accepts... and returns...  bool func blarg (A, B: bool):  G If you're going to write the comment anyway, the previous is just extrau work.i  ; > AFAIK, the compiler really _uses_ all that information.  b > Except for theH > comments of course.  Have you found an Ada compiler that forces you to > write comments? 2 > I'd love to inflict it on some of my co-workers.  L No, but I've seen people who could use it.  Maybe look into intercal.  It at, least requires them to ask nicely sometimes.  = > Ada doesn't force long names on you.  The longest reserved 1 > word is what, D > "procedure"?  (I don't have all 60-odd at my fingertips, so that's  > probably NOT the longest one.)  H What about in the standard procedures and functions? (What does Ada call them? :)   Regards,   Chris[  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");o 'h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:03:11 +0100?- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>s Subject: Re: The future of VMS) Message-ID: <3B1E462F.D8FE76FE@bbc.co.uk>t  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:c  ) > I think it's not quite that simple.....t >tJ > Computers, like education, have been dumbed down in certain areas.  It'sL > true that a person leaving high school now thinks that they can administerI > systems (and are often employed for that role).  The problem comes when D > something goes wrong or when the department/company which they areM > supporting reaches a certain critical mass.  At this stage, the high school I > person just can't cope unless they've had significant experience.  They J > probably don't have the analysis techniques in their heads to be able toI > consider what the symptoms are and what the underlying problem which isvL > causing them might be.  As a colleague and I discussed and he suggested toK > me a while back - there are too many people out there who can look at theoJ > system or the router but can't see the whole picture and think about how" > all of these items fit together.  I ah, the good old "staffing for the troughs in demand" trick. Or, the appsn
 programmerM who won't touch anything but the particular 4GL they've been using for years.g :-)tL Of course, non-technical management may wonder why they need those expensive oldiesM who really have seen the shit hit the fan enough to know when to duck and howa
 to fix it.  O Sadly, it is an scenario all to familiar in and outside of IT, in this country.e  N My colleague has been trying for some days now to get his tax code from the IRM (Inland Revenue), every time he calls "the computer is down". My DSL providereM should surely be able to provide the quoted 250kbit/sec to any point on theirsJ own network. I can barely tracrt to the first hop on their network mostly.  K It is frightening that govt is standardizing on M$. Shows they have no real  appreciation
 of IT issues.   % ah well, car problems again today :-)i  -- 6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.f   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 12:32:14 -0500e9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: RE: The future of VMS3 Message-ID: <E2Mk8xTXgWqS@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  z In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: >> -----Original Message----- E >> From: rdeininger@mindspring.com [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]  > 
 >> In article,D >> <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EF9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,/ >> Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  > E >> Ada style takes some getting used to.  Trying to do things the (C, 0 >> Fortran) was leads to unnecessary discomfort. > N > I have noticed that.  It's easier to think of Ada as a Pascal-alike languageI > and program it as if you were writing Pascal.  That works better -- notS > quite perfectly, though.  D This is true of just about any language.  Long before there was Ada,@ somebody said "It is possible to write FORTRAN in any language".> The unspoken lesson is that because something is possible does> not mean it is a good idea.  Any language should be programmed( in a style appropriate to that language.  L > Any language which is incredibly verbose in its statements is said by someK > to be "self-documenting."  That's crap, of course.  No language is, but IpN > get the impression that all of the functions/procedures were named in such aK > way that it may be simple for a non-programmer to understand what's goingoJ > on.  That's not a bad thing, of course, but the extra verbosity required, > also necessitates extra typing on my part.  A Consider somebody new to the language, or to your project, trying D to understand your code while you are on vacation (or "holiday" :-).E They are going to read that line _many_ more times than you typed it.oE Anyone writing Ada code should spend a _lot_ more time thinking about1@ it than typing it, and so far as I can see that applies to other languages as well.  F > The point is that if a programmer writes comments into the code, the > declaration: > 2 > function blarg (A, B: boolean) return boolean is > % > can be condensed to something like:t > B > --Blarg is a function which does... it accepts... and returns...  >  bool func blarg (A, B: bool): > I > If you're going to write the comment anyway, the previous is just extra. > work.t  F Certainly that is an example of a poor comment.  Comments should _not_B parrot what can be determined from the source.  I would expect theA comment for the Blarg function to explain why it is not using thee= standard Bla function for the project.  I would also expect ae< better name for the function, but perhaps it is a well-known term in the problem domain.n    > >> Ada doesn't force long names on you.  The longest reserved  >> word is what,E >> "procedure"?  (I don't have all 60-odd at my fingertips, so that'sn! >> probably NOT the longest one.)f > J > What about in the standard procedures and functions? (What does Ada call
 > them? :)  C There are standard "packages" (similar to modules if you don't lookn' too closely), containing "subprograms":   2 	http://www.ada-auth.org/~acats/arm-html/RM-A.html  G For your project there may be heavily used "packages" that would not beaI "standard" due to only being of interest to those working in your problemf domain.l  F While Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions is certainly a keyboardful,G anyone really using it will take advantage of renaming or "use" clausesoE to access the package.  Within that package the longest function name G I can find is "Arctanh", and I doubt that even specialists in the field- would want it shorter.  C By the way, Ada does let you have an Arctanh for floating point and?F a different Arctanh for long floating point (if your machine has such)E and Ada decides which one you mean based on the type of arguments youcI feed it.  And no, there is no Arctanh that accepts two Booleans, althougheB you could define one if you thought you knew what it should do :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:44:57 -0500t+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>a Subject: RE: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EFC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----) > From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam   
 > In article -@ > <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.co3 > m>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:f  H > > The point is that if a programmer writes comments into the code, the > > declaration: > > 4 > > function blarg (A, B: boolean) return boolean is > > ' > > can be condensed to something like:g > > D > > --Blarg is a function which does... it accepts... and returns..." > >  bool func blarg (A, B: bool): > > > > > If you're going to write the comment anyway, the previous  > is just extrai	 > > work.a  H > Certainly that is an example of a poor comment.  Comments should _not_D > parrot what can be determined from the source.  I would expect theC > comment for the Blarg function to explain why it is not using thet? > standard Bla function for the project.  I would also expect ai> > better name for the function, but perhaps it is a well-known > term in the problem domain.s  F Or maybe it's a poor example of a comment. :)  What I mean is that theF comment should say what your function does to its arguments and (or atF least) why, what to expect out of it, and what (not) to do with it, if
 appropriate. d  K I do think it's appropriate to give more information than necessary in youreF comments, because most people reading your code will speak your nativeJ language more fluently than whatever programming language it's in.  If you? can help them to avoid some 3:00 am errors, so much the better.:  H > While Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions is certainly a keyboardful,  % Wow, I'd forgotten about that one. :)D  < > anyone really using it will take advantage of renaming or  > "use" clausescG > to access the package.  Within that package the longest function name @ > I can find is "Arctanh", and I doubt that even specialists in  > the field  > would want it shorter.  G No, Arctanh is fine.  Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions is a bit too I much, I think :)  On the other hand, there's something profound about thes3 command "use Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions;"s   Regards,   Christ  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developera Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");s 'e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 00:37:45 -0700v1 From: martin.ejdestig@planit.se (Martin Ejdestig)  Subject: Threads. = Message-ID: <19468064.0106052337.5d3b3ce0@posting.google.com>n  A I'm a bit confused when it comes to threads and asts. I'm runningo# version V7.1-2 on an Alpha machine.h  D 1. When does asts interrupt the thread that requested it (per-thread; AST) and when are they delivered to the process as a whole?g  F 2. If I use sys$setast() to disable asts is this on a per-thread basisC or for the process as a whole? If to the process, mustn't I preventeF other threads from enable asts with sys$setast() (otherwise I can't beB sure that asts are disabled in the thread that disabled asts...you know what I mean...).e  E 3. I've made a library that uses some global variables to store error F information. This must be stored for each thread. To accomplish this IB must use tis_key_create()....right (Im not 100% sure on how to useD it...care to write an example :)? Is there some way I can initializeE this atomatically when linked with my library (ie without calling anyoF MyLib_Initialize() routine) (and deinitlaize atomatically when my prog exits).l  D 4. Ive made a "wait for one of these events to occur" function whichD uses poll() in the unix version and asts, sys$hiber() and sys$wake()A (in the asts) in the vms version. I've understood that sys$wake()lE wakes all threads that have called sys$hiber(). To solve this problem E Ive gotta check somehow if the sys$wake() was for me (the thread) and E if it wasn't do sys$hiber() again. Is there a better way (ie a way to F just sys$wake() the thread that that should be awaken)?...note that it* should work in a single threaded proc. to.  @ 5. When a thread has called the "wait for one of these events toB occur" function above, it must be able to be notified from anotherB thread that it should exit. Since I use poll() on unix I acomplishD this by using pipe() and write()...dunno if this is any good though.C What is the best approach on vms (see above for how Ive implementeda6 the "wait for one of these events to occur" function)?     Thankful for any help.   /Martin Ejdestig   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 03:55:36 -0700 5 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders)fF Subject: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2= Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0106060255.43b54fd2@posting.google.com>g  @ I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NETD ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2.A The version of dec-net is DECnet-OSI for OpenVMS Version V5.6B-08iA I am also trying to do this remotely, don't have access to systemh console.* On some MicroVax 3100-30 the vms command :E NCP SHOW EXEC STATUS works fine but unfortunately on the vax's i need ? the information when i type the above command i get the error :.> NCP-W-SYSMGT, System-specific management function no supported thanks , pato   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:42:10 -0500d1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>nJ Subject: Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2' Message-ID: <3B1E3332.6F73F69E@fsi.net>    pat saunders wrote:s > B > I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NETF > ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2.C > The version of dec-net is DECnet-OSI for OpenVMS Version V5.6B-08d   You're screwed..  B Even many of us long-time DECies find Dnet-V (Dnet-OSI) hopelessly incomprehensible.e  C > I am also trying to do this remotely, don't have access to systemf
 > console.  H You only need to be able to SET HOST or TELNET (or even SET HOST/TELNET) to the target machine.  , > On some MicroVax 3100-30 the vms command :G > NCP SHOW EXEC STATUS works fine but unfortunately on the vax's i needeA > the information when i type the above command i get the error :t@ > NCP-W-SYSMGT, System-specific management function no supported  G Yeah. NCP as supplied with Dnet-OSI is but a shadow of its former self.oH It serves no useful purpose. The utility you need to look into is called> NCL. The HELP is worse than the documentation - just one giant tail-chase that leads nowhere.  H Dnet-OSI is strictly for the most esoteric of techies, and those who areH willing to study the mystical, darkly secret, multi-line incantations ofG NCL which replace the simple, (relatively) easy-to-understand, one-line: commands of NCP.  < Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for newbies...  8 ...in my admittedly bitter opinion, YMMV considerably...   -- m David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:02:53 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)iJ Subject: Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-20 Message-ID: <009FD1F8.5085A7FB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  u In article <bc0e3bd8.0106060255.43b54fd2@posting.google.com>, pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders) writes: A >I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NETaE >ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2.oB >The version of dec-net is DECnet-OSI for OpenVMS Version V5.6B-08B >I am also trying to do this remotely, don't have access to system	 >console. + >On some MicroVax 3100-30 the vms command : F >NCP SHOW EXEC STATUS works fine but unfortunately on the vax's i need@ >the information when i type the above command i get the error :? >NCP-W-SYSMGT, System-specific management function no supportede	 >thanks ,b >pat  2 $ MCR NCL SHOW NODE 0 CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMx            nO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:15:29 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)cJ Subject: Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-20 Message-ID: <009FD1FA.134EE8A8@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <3B1E3332.6F73F69E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:e >pat saunders wrote: >> jC >> I am new to VMS !!! My question is how do u find out the DEC-NETfG >> ethernet address of a MicroVax 3100-30. The version of VMS is 5.5-2.AD >> The version of dec-net is DECnet-OSI for OpenVMS Version V5.6B-08 >  >You're screwed. >oC >Even many of us long-time DECies find Dnet-V (Dnet-OSI) hopelessly  >incomprehensible.  G Come down off your high horse.  It is not "hopelessly incomprehensible"s2 nor is that anybody is "screwed" by installing it.  < The following command will set him the information he seeks:  2 $ MCR NCL SHOW NODE 0 CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS*                ^^^^^^--- this is optional   + $ MCR NCL SHOW CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS[   Compared with Phase-IV  ) $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE CHARACTERISTICSb  % Gee, it's only two characters longer!t    D >> I am also trying to do this remotely, don't have access to system >> console., > I >You only need to be able to SET HOST or TELNET (or even SET HOST/TELNET)u >to the target machine.V > - >> On some MicroVax 3100-30 the vms command :tH >> NCP SHOW EXEC STATUS works fine but unfortunately on the vax's i needB >> the information when i type the above command i get the error :A >> NCP-W-SYSMGT, System-specific management function no supportedk >hH >Yeah. NCP as supplied with Dnet-OSI is but a shadow of its former self.I >It serves no useful purpose. The utility you need to look into is calledp? >NCL. The HELP is worse than the documentation - just one giant  >tail-chase that leads nowhere.   G Read/study "Computer Networks" Andrew S. Tanenbaum.  My copy is from my G MSEE days (copyright 1981) but I'm sure it's still in print in some Ntho edition.    I >Dnet-OSI is strictly for the most esoteric of techies, and those who arehI >willing to study the mystical, darkly secret, multi-line incantations ofiH >NCL which replace the simple, (relatively) easy-to-understand, one-line >commands of NCP.t >n= >Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for newbies...e  L If you were weaned on Phase-V, you might find NCP commands just as distaste- ful.    : >....in my admittedly bitter opinion, YMMV considerably...   Why so?v --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            eO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:56:10 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>hJ Subject: Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-2' Message-ID: <3B1E448A.BD4082C3@fsi.net>   & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > [snip]> > The following command will set him the information he seeks: > 4 > $ MCR NCL SHOW NODE 0 CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS+ >                ^^^^^^--- this is optionala > - > $ MCR NCL SHOW CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUSa >  > Compared with Phase-IV > + > $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE CHARACTERISTICSl > ' > Gee, it's only two characters longer!   A ...but *FAR* less straight forward - don't even get me started on@? "intuitive", whatever the hell *THAT* word is supposed to mean!e  H To someone who was "brought up" on "lines" and "circuits", what the hellF is a "CSMA-CD STATION"? Some new Micro$hit bloatware? ...a sun desktopD machine? ...the latest arcade game? ...a service/supply facility for motor vehicles?e  F (Yes, I *KNOW* what a "CSMA-CD STATION" is - *NOW*! I took the time to$ look it up circa. six(6) years ago.)  . > [snip]I > Read/study "Computer Networks" Andrew S. Tanenbaum.  My copy is from myeI > MSEE days (copyright 1981) but I'm sure it's still in print in some Nthm
 > edition.  E This book documents DEC's NCL? ...and fills in the gaps where the DECs$ docset and on-line HELP are lacking?  K > >Dnet-OSI is strictly for the most esoteric of techies, and those who aretK > >willing to study the mystical, darkly secret, multi-line incantations ofeJ > >NCL which replace the simple, (relatively) easy-to-understand, one-line > >commands of NCP.u > > ? > >Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for newbies...o > N > If you were weaned on Phase-V, you might find NCP commands just as distaste- > ful.  A How many of us fall under that heading? Fair few, I should think.o  s< > >....in my admittedly bitter opinion, YMMV considerably... > 	 > Why so?n  B I believe that question is answered in the earlier post as well as above.   For another example:  G I've been beating my head against Dnet-OSI since it first appeared back E in the early 90's. Just this past year, I FINALLY found out how to dotA the equivalent of NCP DEFINE NODE (you invoke the DECNET_REGISTERt9 command/program), and that was from a news group posting.   G That's 8 or 9 years(!) to find the equivalent of a command that I foundeE in minutes in NCP's HELP before I developed some experience with NCP.d? This could easily have been found in a "DECnet-IV to DECnet-OSI F Conversion 'How-to'" book, had DEC seen fit to create such a thing. IfA there ever was, I never saw it. You know how manuals just seem toi  mystically evaporate at times...   -- e David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:44:57 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)dJ Subject: Re: UPDATE - finding the dec-net ethernet address using vms 5.5-20 Message-ID: <009FD20E.F4D5E07D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <3B1E448A.BD4082C3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:k	 >> [snip]i? >> The following command will set him the information he seeks:u >> e5 >> $ MCR NCL SHOW NODE 0 CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS(, >>                ^^^^^^--- this is optional >> n. >> $ MCR NCL SHOW CSMA-CD STATION * ALL STATUS >> t >> Compared with Phase-IV  >> u, >> $ MCR NCP SHOW KNOWN LINE CHARACTERISTICS >> r( >> Gee, it's only two characters longer! >yC >....but *FAR* less straight forward - don't even get me started onw@ >"intuitive", whatever the hell *THAT* word is supposed to mean! >yI >To someone who was "brought up" on "lines" and "circuits", what the hellgG >is a "CSMA-CD STATION"? Some new Micro$hit bloatware? ...a sun desktop_E >machine? ...the latest arcade game? ...a service/supply facility for  >motor vehicles? >vG >(Yes, I *KNOW* what a "CSMA-CD STATION" is - *NOW*! I took the time to % >look it up circa. six(6) years ago.)a  G The CSMA-CD plays into the 1st (physical) and 2nd (Data Link) layers of  the OSI stack.       > 	 >> [snip]oJ >> Read/study "Computer Networks" Andrew S. Tanenbaum.  My copy is from myJ >> MSEE days (copyright 1981) but I'm sure it's still in print in some Nth >> edition.o >hF >This book documents DEC's NCL? ...and fills in the gaps where the DEC% >docset and on-line HELP are lacking?   J No.  It covers DECnet (phase IV in my 1981 ed.), Arpanet (IP) and SNA.  ItJ discusses these network implementations in terms of the OSI 7 layer model.K I'm aware of newer versions of this same text (albeit I not thumbed throughF' it myself) which cover the OSI as well.1  J The idea is to get your head into the seven layer mindset and knowing just a bit about networking.c   > L >> >Dnet-OSI is strictly for the most esoteric of techies, and those who areL >> >willing to study the mystical, darkly secret, multi-line incantations ofK >> >NCL which replace the simple, (relatively) easy-to-understand, one-lineb >> >commands of NCP. >> >@ >> >Not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for newbies... >> -O >> If you were weaned on Phase-V, you might find NCP commands just as distaste-a >> ful.  >lB >How many of us fall under that heading? Fair few, I should think. >   I I've been struggling through RFCs for the past few weeks to gleen certainmH protocol functionality from them.  Phase-V documentation is pure nirvana in comparison.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:24:39 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>uC Subject: Re: User sued by DEC, was: Re: Affordable VMS WorkstationsyH Message-ID: <y4vgm9y9co.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:o  J > >If he had chosen Germany as the legal venue, his case would likely beenL > >much stronger. Here, a verbal bargain has the same legal standing betweenL > >non-consumers as a written bargain, and given the history as you describe, > >it, it seems unlikely DEC could have won.4 > But how do you prove you have a verbal agreement?   H Have a witness or three of the conversation. Show a note documenting theI telephone conversation where the question was discussed. Follow up with an letter or an e-mail.  M But yes, really proving it can get ugly. Nonetheless, Antwerp diamond dealersi< do it all the time, trading upwards of $10k per transaction.  I > And even if you can the lawyers will probably argue (likely correctly) nJ > that those who gave verbal assurances didn't have the corporate position! > within DEC to really give this.   I That's another point, and would apply to a written assurance in a similar N way. I suspect that the most the company would be able to achieve is a promiseM to stop doing whatever they object to. They might even be required to pay the0K other party's legal expenses, unless they showed that their opponent should N have known, with due diligence, that the person giving the assurance could not4 have done so legally, which again is very difficult.   IANAL, and so on.A   	jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:03:43 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> C Subject: Re: User sued by DEC, was: Re: Affordable VMS Workstationsi8 Message-ID: <fbhshtkrekibhk5gvm11n4aspk9s3l5lhh@4ax.com>  . On 06 Jun 2001 16:24:39 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  ( >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >   J >> And even if you can the lawyers will probably argue (likely correctly) K >> that those who gave verbal assurances didn't have the corporate positiond" >> within DEC to really give this. > J >That's another point, and would apply to a written assurance in a similarO >way. I suspect that the most the company would be able to achieve is a promisehN >to stop doing whatever they object to. They might even be required to pay the  D And  I think that's what DEC's lawyers really wanted. A promise thatB the company would stop promoting the "VMS Users software guide" or; whatever. I'm not sure of the exact title at this distance.h  L >other party's legal expenses, unless they showed that their opponent shouldO >have known, with due diligence, that the person giving the assurance could nott5 >have done so legally, which again is very difficult.t >  >IANAL, and so on. >h >	jane   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 10:49:44 -0700. From: janicmx@yahoo.com (Mike) Subject: VMS 7.2-1 and UCX 4.2= Message-ID: <31886a6f.0106060949.7e6ec7da@posting.google.com>c  0 Is UCX 4.2 supported under VMS 7.2-1  on Alpha ?  	 TIA, Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 05:24:01 -0400   From: Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff)) Subject: Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?tO Message-ID: <A346A43E324E54BD.EBA25D3BCCD93CA5.57001C1C0876E4FA@lp.airnews.net>e  J    A short update... we talked to the local BEA sales office and indicatedI that we wanted to purchase one or more modules for OpenVMS.  We wanted toaH know what modules we would need, how they installed and workd on OpenVMS! (requirements etc) and pricing.  v    F    We were rather surpirsed to hear that the best they could say afterH four days of conversations with the local sales guy and sales support on* the West Cost was that it worked on VMS.    D                      Issue                                  ResponseD                      -----                                  --------=    We asked for release notes and install guides         NONE:F    We aksed for pre-sales support for OpenVMS            Still lookingF    OpenVMS Product/Development Manager                   Still LookingA    Reference sites                                       Not Sure,    F    One sales fellow said 'how about if we get Compaq to say it runs onC OpenVMS' our response was 'how about we ask Compaq who your productR4 manager is since no one at BEA can find him/her'...   I    In summary, BEA seems unable to produce anyone internal that has seen, G heard of, or manages the OpenVMS segment. Most disturbing is what would J have happened if we had bought something and needed support.  Not at all a good sign.        
 In articleD <A082CBA49B3F9AD6.7F8801D5B676C39C.E983D06FD2941F70@lp.airnews.net>,! Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff) wrote:O  @ > We have a partner that is implementing Weblogic Server on NT.. > H > They wish to send/receive XML files (with the proper serialisation and, > recovery-delivery assurances) via SSL .... > G > Is anyone out there running the middle-ware pieces of BEA/Weblogic on L > OpenVMS and exchanging files with another system? Is it compatible in some  > way with RTR or IBM MessageQ ? > F > Anyone using an XML parser in production... The Compaq freeware one? > Someone elses?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 06:56:42 -0500 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com>n) Subject: RE: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?sR Message-ID: <DC4745D1A85CA04180C83CDC706A9D180D9664@cthexc02.americas.cpqcorp.net>  H Actually, the BEA story with OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX is much better these4 days .. check out the platform support pages on BEA:  4 http://www.bea.com/products/messageq/platforms.shtml4 http://www.bea.com/products/tuxedo/platforms_6.shtml  J Key is that, contrary to some other OS platform providers, Compaq does notF offer its own competing product in the middleware space, so it makes a pretty good fit.   :-)w   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantM Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesd Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----. From: Kuff@Tessco.Com [mailto:Kuff@Tessco.Com] Sent: June 6, 2001 5:24 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt) Subject: Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?a            J    A short update... we talked to the local BEA sales office and indicatedI that we wanted to purchase one or more modules for OpenVMS.  We wanted toiH know what modules we would need, how they installed and workd on OpenVMS! (requirements etc) and pricing.  S    F    We were rather surpirsed to hear that the best they could say afterH four days of conversations with the local sales guy and sales support on* the West Cost was that it worked on VMS.    D                      Issue                                  ResponseD                      -----                                  --------=    We asked for release notes and install guides         NONEcF    We aksed for pre-sales support for OpenVMS            Still lookingF    OpenVMS Product/Development Manager                   Still LookingA    Reference sites                                       Not Sure     F    One sales fellow said 'how about if we get Compaq to say it runs onC OpenVMS' our response was 'how about we ask Compaq who your productm4 manager is since no one at BEA can find him/her'...   I    In summary, BEA seems unable to produce anyone internal that has seen,tG heard of, or manages the OpenVMS segment. Most disturbing is what would-J have happened if we had bought something and needed support.  Not at all a good sign.        
 In articleD <A082CBA49B3F9AD6.7F8801D5B676C39C.E983D06FD2941F70@lp.airnews.net>,! Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff) wrote:S  @ > We have a partner that is implementing Weblogic Server on NT.. > H > They wish to send/receive XML files (with the proper serialisation and, > recovery-delivery assurances) via SSL .... > G > Is anyone out there running the middle-ware pieces of BEA/Weblogic on L > OpenVMS and exchanging files with another system? Is it compatible in some  > way with RTR or IBM MessageQ ? > F > Anyone using an XML parser in production... The Compaq freeware one? > Someone elses?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:00:58 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i) Subject: Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML?m8 Message-ID: <6dcsht07hj0bs6u9i36o9le6ucq85tsoko@4ax.com>  1 On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 06:56:42 -0500, "Main, Kerry"  <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com> wrote:  I >Actually, the BEA story with OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX is much better theseN5 >days .. check out the platform support pages on BEA:    Kerry,  D A customer says they just talked to BEA sales (which did not inspireE confidence) and you reply "it is much better these days". What? Since  yesterday perhaps?  C As well as product availability both Compaq and third party vendorsoE must be aware of their VMS products if they are to sell/support them.aB Sounds like local BEA folks like local Compaq folks need some more
 education.  D You can tell I'm a bit tetchy after fighting fast ethernet switches,D service contracts and (absence of) Alpha literature this last couple of weeks can't you :-)  < Still at least kuff now has some URLs to point BEA folks at.  5 >http://www.bea.com/products/messageq/platforms.shtml 5 >http://www.bea.com/products/tuxedo/platforms_6.shtmlr >tK >Key is that, contrary to some other OS platform providers, Compaq does notbG >offer its own competing product in the middleware space, so it makes as >pretty good fit.t >o >:-) >t	 >Regards,  >s >Kerry Mainw >Senior Consultant >Compaq Canada Inc.e >Professional Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax  :  819-772-7036i >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.comi >  >m >-----Original Message-----t/ >From: Kuff@Tessco.Com [mailto:Kuff@Tessco.Com]. >Sent: June 6, 2001 5:24 AMh >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* >Subject: Re: Weblogic/BEA On OpenVMS XML? >a >t >l >i >r >iK >   A short update... we talked to the local BEA sales office and indicated J >that we wanted to purchase one or more modules for OpenVMS.  We wanted toI >know what modules we would need, how they installed and workd on OpenVMS-" >(requirements etc) and pricing.   >0 >uG >   We were rather surpirsed to hear that the best they could say afterhI >four days of conversations with the local sales guy and sales support on2+ >the West Cost was that it worked on VMS.    >iE >                     Issue                                  ResponseiE >                     -----                                  --------C> >   We asked for release notes and install guides         NONEG >   We aksed for pre-sales support for OpenVMS            Still lookingwG >   OpenVMS Product/Development Manager                   Still Looking,B >   Reference sites                                       Not Sure >d >dG >   One sales fellow said 'how about if we get Compaq to say it runs oniD >OpenVMS' our response was 'how about we ask Compaq who your product5 >manager is since no one at BEA can find him/her'... e >wJ >   In summary, BEA seems unable to produce anyone internal that has seen,H >heard of, or manages the OpenVMS segment. Most disturbing is what wouldK >have happened if we had bought something and needed support.  Not at all ay
 >good sign.    >s >] >  >In articleoE ><A082CBA49B3F9AD6.7F8801D5B676C39C.E983D06FD2941F70@lp.airnews.net>, " >Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff) wrote: >lA >> We have a partner that is implementing Weblogic Server on NT..? >> nI >> They wish to send/receive XML files (with the proper serialisation and - >> recovery-delivery assurances) via SSL ....f >> iH >> Is anyone out there running the middle-ware pieces of BEA/Weblogic onM >> OpenVMS and exchanging files with another system? Is it compatible in somet! >> way with RTR or IBM MessageQ ?  >> PG >> Anyone using an XML parser in production... The Compaq freeware one?o >> Someone elses?    -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 06 Jun 01 08:24:04 GMTy From: jmfbahciv@aol.comaF Subject: Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...)+ Message-ID: <9fl2b5$ahc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   3 In article <UIM$YlAiJBWk@eisner.encompasserve.org>, =    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: L >In article <9fj0gt$1cq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu  (David Mathog) writes:K >> In article <zaOS6.21551$zl5.6585942@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. E, Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >>> J >>>If I was King, er, Capellas For a Day, my first edict would be to find  thea7 >>>corporate graphics person responsible for the gaffe.o >> oJ >> HP has a method of reducing the size of groups by sending out a notice  thatG >> "you have N weeks to find a job in another group inside HP or you'reiI >> terminated".  This is nicer than just a pink slip, and tends to retain 2 >> skilled workers.  Does the Q do the same thing? >t9 >DEC did when they were laying people off some years ago.l >fK >> PacBell once put a bit of code into production which was supposed to not K >> charge for telephone calls lasting fewer than 5 seconds.  The idea beingsK >> that these were wrong numbers and shouldn't be charged.  It worked like e aoG >> charm but unfortunately the code did not check the minutes and hoursaJ >> fields, and it took the company more days than they had backup tapes toJ >> figure out that their income had suddently dropped to 55/60 of what it  hadXJ >> been, and to trace down the cause.  As a consequence the good people ofH >> California were graced with several million dollars of free telephoneK >> service.  Once PacBell figured out the problem heads rolled like it was o therK >> French revolution, with everybody even remotely responsible being shown l the ? >> door - including managers many levels above the programmer. M >DD >Certainly the programmer was just behaving as was the accepted normH >for the programming group.  If the company as a practice omitted formalF >inspection and design review of crucial applications, it is those who@ >managed the software development environment who are at fault.   ; Ptui.  Don't people _test_ their software anymore?  You can ; code inspect and design review until the cows come home ando still ship crap.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 07:20:17 -0500o9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)yF Subject: Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...)3 Message-ID: <y3NndjnxEqJl@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  E In article <9fl2b5$ahc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: 5 > In article <UIM$YlAiJBWk@eisner.encompasserve.org>,>? >    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: M >>In article <9fj0gt$1cq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu i > (David Mathog) writes:L >>> In article <zaOS6.21551$zl5.6585942@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. . > Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >>>>K >>>>If I was King, er, Capellas For a Day, my first edict would be to find h > thew8 >>>>corporate graphics person responsible for the gaffe. >>> K >>> HP has a method of reducing the size of groups by sending out a notice l > thatH >>> "you have N weeks to find a job in another group inside HP or you'reJ >>> terminated".  This is nicer than just a pink slip, and tends to retain3 >>> skilled workers.  Does the Q do the same thing?e >>: >>DEC did when they were laying people off some years ago. >>L >>> PacBell once put a bit of code into production which was supposed to notL >>> charge for telephone calls lasting fewer than 5 seconds.  The idea beingL >>> that these were wrong numbers and shouldn't be charged.  It worked like  > ahH >>> charm but unfortunately the code did not check the minutes and hoursK >>> fields, and it took the company more days than they had backup tapes torK >>> figure out that their income had suddently dropped to 55/60 of what it o > had K >>> been, and to trace down the cause.  As a consequence the good people of I >>> California were graced with several million dollars of free telephone L >>> service.  Once PacBell figured out the problem heads rolled like it was  > the L >>> French revolution, with everybody even remotely responsible being shown  > theu@ >>> door - including managers many levels above the programmer.  >>E >>Certainly the programmer was just behaving as was the accepted normyI >>for the programming group.  If the company as a practice omitted formal.G >>inspection and design review of crucial applications, it is those whonA >>managed the software development environment who are at fault. r > = > Ptui.  Don't people _test_ their software anymore?  You cant= > code inspect and design review until the cows come home ande > still ship crap.  @ Certainly people test.  In this case, they could have tested for, 54 minutes without encountering the problem.  A I don't mean to imply that formal inspection alone is sufficient,o= but this particular problem might actually be found by formal < inspection and not by testing.  Or vice versa.  A wide range? of techniques is required to make a serious attempt at quality.n2 You and I have not come close to listing them all.  C My major point is that the individual programmer cannot be expectednA to hold out for quality, at the expense of promotion, if the shop - puts its entire priorities on delivery dates.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 06 Jun 01 10:45:18 GMTc From: jmfbahciv@aol.comcF Subject: Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...)+ Message-ID: <9flaju$ioe$2@bob.news.rcn.net>a  3 In article <y3NndjnxEqJl@eisner.encompasserve.org>,l=    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:aF >In article <9fl2b5$ahc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:6 >> In article <UIM$YlAiJBWk@eisner.encompasserve.org>,@ >>    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:0 >>>In article <9fj0gt$1cq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,  mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu  >> (David Mathog) writes:f <snip>  F >>>Certainly the programmer was just behaving as was the accepted normJ >>>for the programming group.  If the company as a practice omitted formalH >>>inspection and design review of crucial applications, it is those whoB >>>managed the software development environment who are at fault.  >> a> >> Ptui.  Don't people _test_ their software anymore?  You can> >> code inspect and design review until the cows come home and >> still ship crap.c >nA >Certainly people test.  In this case, they could have tested for - >54 minutes without encountering the problem.e  ? That isn't a test.  That's just a run through.  A test includest; checking to make sure that other ranges haven't been broke.    >oB >I don't mean to imply that formal inspection alone is sufficient,  = I know (I've read posts by you that are sensible ;-)).  But Ip: had to object because I'm encountered more and more people+ who don't seem to understand about testing.a  > >but this particular problem might actually be found by formal0 >inspection and not by testing.  Or vice versa.   > Perhaps it could have been found by inspection.  My experienceF is that inspection was usually a waste of manpower.  The effectiveness; of code inspection is completely dependent on the attention9= span of the inspectors.  I prefer (and this is my taste) realS; exertion of the code rather than a thought experiement. :-)-   > A wide range@ >of techniques is required to make a serious attempt at quality.3 >You and I have not come close to listing them all.   & Right.  This needed to be pointed out.   >ED >My major point is that the individual programmer cannot be expectedB >to hold out for quality, at the expense of promotion, if the shop. >puts its entire priorities on delivery dates.  C Well, we did.  But our software cycles were years and the promotione cycles were one year.  v   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.b   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 15:31:58 GMT 2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)F Subject: Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...), Message-ID: <9flidf$ag0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  o In article <y3NndjnxEqJl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:WF >In article <9fl2b5$ahc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >> Ptui.  Don't people _test_ their software anymore?  You can> >> code inspect and design review until the cows come home and >> still ship crap.f >oA >Certainly people test.  In this case, they could have tested forr- >54 minutes without encountering the problem.r  L Well, that's the surprising thing - it should have shown up on a call of oneI minute and 1 second.   I suspect that at the time, which was pre-internetnI explosion, there weren't all that many local calls greater than 1 hour inwJ length.  Today, there are many such calls from homes (network connections)E but probably all of these are on flat rate services, so that this bugrH wouldn't be relevant on the vast majority of these longer calls (today).   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech nJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 11:38:36 -0500o9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)-F Subject: Re: Who gets blamed for faulty software (was: A New Twist...)3 Message-ID: <aSxPGOAeVPBX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <9flidf$ag0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: q > In article <y3NndjnxEqJl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:pG >>In article <9fl2b5$ahc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:p >> w? >>> Ptui.  Don't people _test_ their software anymore?  You canr? >>> code inspect and design review until the cows come home and  >>> still ship crap. >>B >>Certainly people test.  In this case, they could have tested for. >>54 minutes without encountering the problem. > N > Well, that's the surprising thing - it should have shown up on a call of one > minute and 1 second.   Whoops, bad math on my part.  C As a previous poster said, you have to choose test cases carefully,2  and that means reading the code.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 06:26:05 GMT. From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..come2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <7hhrhtcso7r365ckjulmhd7d0ckj9208u6@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:05:33 -0600, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e wrote:& >At 01:53 PM 6/5/2001, JF Mezei wrote: >>Brian Tillman wrote: >> >I >> > >Then give everyone his own personal air conditioned winnebago with u >> built-inu. >> > >hot tub for commuting to work every day. >> >K >> > If Winnebago could sell then, they would.  If people had enough money  	 >> to buy + >> > them, they would.  So?  Your point is?- >>O >>There is nothing wrong with the ultra rich buying excessively large luxurious M >>cars. But there is something wrong when the economic structure of a countrylM >>results in the masses buying cars that are way bigger than they really need H >>and where they don't worry about fuel costs because the fuel price is 
 >>subsidized.p >tL >Wrong terminology.  It's not "the fuel price is subsidized", it's "the fuelD >price isn't taxed to death like in other countries".  Get it right.  6 well, to fill up a SUV for $70 USD,  one might as well2 write a check to Exxon for $35, and another check  for $35 to go overseas to OPEC.-  5 $35 not too likely to ever be reinvested in the USA, p* but rather, invested in those bastions of 9 Freedom && Liberty,  known as Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia...@   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 06:53:33 GMTe From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..come2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <i6jrht0q4mt1ldd4cnga3tk6jmfr7aeml1@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:01:56 -0600, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e wrote:  9 >I own 2 SUV's and a 9 1/2 ton, 37' long motorhome.  .... I > But frankly, it's nobody's business other than my own what I drive and  H >why I drive it - and it's not within the purview of ANYBODY to dictate M >to me what I should drive.   But if it seems germane, I drive SUV's because 1V >they give me and mine a MUCH better chance of surviving a crash with a rice burner.  7 >It may sound callous, but I believe in "me first"  ...k  - "hey now, I really gotta go get me a new SUV; .   one waaay bigger than that other guy's got! -   I can't even see 'round, or over it !  and,6,   I might get hurt otherwise, y' know ? ..."  & and so,  began the SUV arms race...      a 9 1/2 ton motorhome?  . well,  you've got a good headstart  on most...   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 02:00 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <6JUN200102002381@gerg.tamu.edu>  ) Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes...kJ }gets to the market?  Electric trucks?  Trains?  No, they burn diesel.  InI }the grand scheme of things, the 50 gallons of gas I burn per month isn'to }even a barrel of gasoline.a  B Actually, that should be more than a barrel. A barrel of oil is 42A gallons - I would assume that a barrel of gas (if there is such ao@ measure) is the same as that. From one barrel of oil you get, onD average, something like 20 gallons of gasoline - this depends on the@ type of crude, the refinery, and can be adjusted by the refinery@ depending on what they want to produce, and can be anywhere from% about 10 gallons to about 30 gallons.M  D If you are using 50 gallons of gas per month, then you are using theE gasoline produced from something around 2.5 barrels of oil per month..  F *Nobody* uses much in the grand scheme of things. Yet a lot gets used.% How do you suppose that that happens?    --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 07:34:54 GMT?) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <9fkmeu$le8$1@joe.rice.edu>r    LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com wrote: :o0 :  "hey now, I really gotta go get me a new SUV;0 :   one waaay bigger than that other guy's got! / :   I can't even see 'round, or over it !  and,d. :   I might get hurt otherwise, y' know ? ..." : ( : and so,  began the SUV arms race...     ( Here's an SUV bigger than anyone else's:  &   http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.html   The Future of SUVs  C Be sure to check out the Internet Browser option on the order form:   "   http://poseur.4x4.org/order.html4   The Future of SUVs Kenworth Pilgrimage order form    --Jerry Leslie e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 11:19:04 GMT # From: rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espame2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <9fl3j8$akv$1@tejo.csic.es>    >u >> >  But if it seemseH >> > germane, I drive SUV's because they give me and mine a MUCH better  >> chance of* >> > surviving a crash with a rice burner. >>E >>No, they just look that way.  Those full size pick up trucks looked 
 >>solid, too.e > M >I'll take my Jeep Grand Cherokee up against a Honda Civic any day, and we'llnN >see who wins, or at least who comes out with the least injuries.   I would beL >happy to take a Ford Expedition or Excursion, or a Chevy Tahoe against thatK >same rice burner.  There's a vast difference of a contrived test where yousJ >run a vehicle against a brick wall (like the tests you cite) and the sameK >test where you run a vehicle like a Tahoe against a smaller vehicle like ap >Honda.i  E Well, did they cost the same, security have a cost too, would you tryIA your Jeep Grand Cherokee against a rice burner, same cost Volvo? nN Seems curious that always is  cheap efficient car .vs. expensive not efficientM ones, lets put the same amount of money for running a car for the next 5 yearoO and compare the SUV you can get for that price and the rice burner you can get,-G You should be able to buya more initially expensive of rice burner due iL the ongoing cost for fuel would be less. And then tell me is more secure the  SUV.e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:17:19 -0500k- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <dLy+2+wr+1o2@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  j In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010605151044.0506faa8@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:* > At 03:05 PM 6/5/2001, Bob Koehler wrote:  J >>First convince me you're not contributing to the price of gas, then I'llE >>bother to come up with all the other reasons why it is my business.g > N > I never said I wasn't.   But you are too - how do you think the food you buyG > gets to the market?  Electric trucks?  Trains?  No, they burn diesel.   F I think that truck is likey operating at higher efficienency than yourG SUV.  I have no problem with the fact that large trucks are a necessityCG in our society (although I'd like to see more long distance shipping byc/ train, which is more efficient than 18 wheels).p  E But I don't buy into every suburban family having a SUV to get to and G from work in the city.  Or every sedan having a V6, or a V8.    The SUVeH market seemed to some on string a couple years ago when gas was 89, now look where we are.    B I'm not going to claim the SUVs are singly responsible for the gasB price, but it's the one part of the problem the average person has direct control over.  F My little 4 banger merges with and passes those trucks with no problemH and I can see a couple miles down the road, to where it curves around 75E foot to 100 foot trees.  I like the view from my minivan, too, but no  big SUV does better.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation.= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:20:32 -0500,- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <b3DorV$wRoRE@eisner.encompasserve.org>i   In article <rdeininger-0506011914560001@user-2ive7nc.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:-  J > I typed a response to this message, but I'm deleting it in the interests > of c.o.v tranquility.L  8 What, you want us to spend our time reading Andrew?  8-)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation@= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupvE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:24:34 -0500c- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <L2NKYbOYpPo5@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  d In article <wJSS6.244667$Z2.2780941@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes: > F > I'll leave it to someone else to translate 3.2 l/100 KM to American.E > I'm seriously considering this as my next car, but the local dealertH > says every one they get in goes right out the door to a customer. IIRC, > there is a 8 month waiting list currently.  G We had a "show" at GSFC with Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, and a naturaleG gas converted Toyota Corolla.  The Toyota rep claimed 4 month waits for G Prius.  The Honda rep (from Chevy Chase) claimed 15 Insights sitting on  her lot.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingd   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:29:55 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y4snhdy93w.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:m  H > By the way - my wife and I lease a Ford Explorer. The sticker price isH > somewhere in the $23,000 range. She had a Bronco-II before that, and aB > Chevy Cavalier before that. The Cav got clobbered broadside by aH > full-size car running a red light and she was lucky to escape with herA > life and her mobility intact. *THAT* is why she wanted the SUV.s  K There is a science fiction story, by Alan Dean Foster IIRC, about free-for-vK alls (including the use of bazookas and anti-tank missiles) on California'seJ freeways. I always thought it laughable, but seems almost prescient in the light of this.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:33:43 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y4puchy8xk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ? wayne@tachysoft.xxx.021386.killspam.015b (Wayne Sewell) writes:e  N > > Funnyt how , outside the USA, families have no problems with regular sizedI > > cars, and it is only in the USA that families require oversized cars.cK > Are parents in all these other countries required to have the child/baby t: > seats mentioned above?  Those can take up a lot of room.  2 Dunno about "all", but it certainly is in Germany.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:38:19 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y4n17ly8pw.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:t  N > But if it seems germane, I drive SUV's because they give me and mine a MUCH 8 > better chance of surviving a crash with a rice burner.  N Nope, almost any other factor will contribute more to your safety than vehicle5 mass. The most dangerous thing to drive in is a tank.r   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 16:49:56 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y4iti9y86j.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> writes:o  ] > The US is a constitutionally based, representative Republic (Not a Democracy) and be they alb > Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green, Blue, or Purple I do not care long as they run and get` > elected based on their beliefs, core values and principles because I can respect that but this` > wishy-washy crap of them sticking their finger in the air ever day to determine which days theb > days wind (polls) are blowing is not leadership or necessarily representative of the people that > placed them into office...  N Read Carl Schurz's autobiography. The situation was very similar to today, 150
 years ago.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 JUN 2001 15:01:34 GMT + From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>u2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?1 Message-ID: <6JUN01.15013444@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>T  $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:  K I hate to contribute to this thread (hope I've got the attributions right),t but...  5 > nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:t >pG > We own a 10year old minivan with a 3.3 l 6 cyl that gets 20 miles/galrF > in mostly city driving, 24-26 mpg highway.  To match its volume in a1 > 2WD SUV we have to drop to below 18mpg highway.  >  M= > >   And then try to tow a trailer behind that small car :-)t >  tJ > Which, since we intend to go to the mountains, is the reason we may end 9 > up getting an 8 cylinder engine in our next vehicle :-(o  F If your trips to the mountains are infrequent, consider renting that 8G cylinder vehicle just for those occasions.  It may prove cheaper in the-7 long run, not to mention more environmentally friendly.h   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVoH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:05:57 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>l2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B1E46D5.85DB7046@fsi.net>t   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > 5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:c > J > > By the way - my wife and I lease a Ford Explorer. The sticker price isJ > > somewhere in the $23,000 range. She had a Bronco-II before that, and aD > > Chevy Cavalier before that. The Cav got clobbered broadside by aJ > > full-size car running a red light and she was lucky to escape with herC > > life and her mobility intact. *THAT* is why she wanted the SUV.t > M > There is a science fiction story, by Alan Dean Foster IIRC, about free-for-cM > alls (including the use of bazookas and anti-tank missiles) on California's L > freeways. I always thought it laughable, but seems almost prescient in the > light of this. > 
 >         Janh  F F.Y.I: Chevy Cavalier is a small car, 2 doors, smallish back seat. TheF only European equivalent I can think of is what was once called a FordB Sierra. Ford sold something similar here in the States under their? Mercury brand, and called it a "Merkur". Under the hood, it was*> essentially a Mustang powertrain. Circa. mid-80's, 1984 or so.   -- 1 David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:10:59 -0500p1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B1E4803.29B76F72@fsi.net>t   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > ) > Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:v > O > > But if it seems germane, I drive SUV's because they give me and mine a MUCHs: > > better chance of surviving a crash with a rice burner. > P > Nope, almost any other factor will contribute more to your safety than vehicle7 > mass. The most dangerous thing to drive in is a tank.r   Well, yes and no.-  E In a collision with a smaller, lighter vehicle, the other car is moremC likely to sustain severe, potentially fatal damage than is the SUV.O  F Vs. a truck or a bridge abutment, your chances are no better in an SUV' and, as you say, may actually be worse.e   -- a David J. Dachterar dba DJE SystemsM http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:44:23 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>s2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y41yoxy5ns.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o  H > F.Y.I: Chevy Cavalier is a small car, 2 doors, smallish back seat. TheH > only European equivalent I can think of is what was once called a Ford	 > Sierra.e  J A Sierra is the fourth size car Ford sells around here. Smalles is the Ka,M then the Fiesta (what I drive), then the Escort, then the Sierra and company.p; Your description fits more closely to the Escort or Fiesta.r   	Jan   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:48:40 +0000 (UTC)1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis)_2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9fljco$jvn$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  K >>>Regardless of whether greenhouse gasses are a cause or an effect, I dareoJ >>>say that volcanism, a process well beyond the control of any life form,K >>>contributes more to the levels of such gasses on a world-wide scale thand7 >>>any local concentrations due to industrial activity.A  O= Historical CO2 levels from the Siple Ice Core, taken in 1984.e4 Source is the University of Berne, Neftel & Friedli.  M   %                    Average        CO2 4                    depth          Gas  concentration'                    (m)   (yr AD) (ppmv)y$                  187.70  1744  276.8%                   177.50  1764  276.7 %                   168.30  1791  279.7 %                   154.89  1816  283.8'%                   142.75  1839  283.1a%                   140.75  1843  287.4?%                   138.20  1847  286.8 %                   134.47  1854  288.2-%                   126.80  1869  289.3m%                   123.80  1874  289.5u%                   121.80  1878  290.3 %                   116.82  1887  292.3@%                   110.20  1899  295.8o%                   108.80  1903  294.8e%                   107.20  1905  296.9 %                   105.25  1909  299.2t%                   101.80  1915  300.5 %                    98.80  1921  301.6e%                    95.17  1927  305.5n%                    90.77  1935  306.6n%                    86.80  1943  307.9 %                    81.22  1953  312.7a*                   72.4-72.7 1954-1976  318*                   68.2-68.6 1962-1983  328  iD As you can see, volcanic activity doesn't even register in the aboveD list.  Neither Krakatoa (the largest volcanic explosion known to manG (1883)) nor Mt. St. Helens(1980) even caused a blip. In fact, accordingiE to the UCSB geology department, volcanoes contribute just 110 millione> tons of carbon dioxide per year. In contrast, man's activities* contribute about 10 BILLION tons per year.  F As for sulfur dioxide concentrations, the US Geological survey reports; that Mt. St. Helens released 1 million tons of SO2 into the D atmosphere during its 1980 eruption.  In that same year, US electricD generating plants in the northeast alone released 10.9 million tons.  F Pinatubo was a whopper, no doubt about it. It released 20 million tonsE of sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere. Worldwide average volcanic SO2 ? release is about 13million tons TOTAL so Pinatubo accounted foruC more than 100% of all volcanic SO2 emissions in 1992. The effect of.B Pinatubo alone was a nearly 4% change in atmospheric reflectivity,B widespread climatic change, and massive damage to the ozone layer.6 That's what 20 million tons of SO2 in the air will do.  /J On the other hand, worldwide anthropogenic (human) activity now causes the2 release of over 90 million tons of SO2 every year.  -
 To sum up:  uN          Worldwide volcanic SO2 emission averages 13 million tons/year. SingleE          catastrophic volcanic emissions can emit much more. Pinatubo ?          emitted 20 million tons, El Chichon emitted 8 million,sE          Mt. St. Helens emitted 1 million in 1980 and 1 million totalc          over the next 7 years.o  h  jO          Total worldwide SO2 emission from natural sources (including volcanos)I/          averages roughly 25 million tons/year.a  v  a<          SO2 emissions produced by human activity totaled 10C          million tons/year in 1900. By 1940 they totaled 30 millionn;          tons. In 1960 50 million tons. In 1980 60 million.e   L          Total human-produced SO2 emissions in 2000 they will be just shy of          100 million tons/year.o   greg -- h Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.edua   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Jun 2001 17:50:18 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?H Message-ID: <y4y9r5wqth.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   G > In a collision with a smaller, lighter vehicle, the other car is more E > likely to sustain severe, potentially fatal damage than is the SUV.   N It is a question of stiffness of the crushable parts. In principle, the largerH car can be made to be as crushable, and thus reduce acceleration, as theL smaller one - it's just more difficult, and often not done for other reasonsF (one such reason is that the designer of the small car has to pay realJ attention to such issues, and the designer of the bigger one doesn't thinkJ so). Mercedes has in fact made its large cars more crushable than requiredJ by scaling alone in order to have them take up a larger part of the energyI in a crash with a small car (a public service with positive PR impact, if 
 you will).  K Sideways impacts are another matter, but things are improving here as well.a  D Because of their high fenders and hoods, and the associated risks toG pedestrians, especially children, SUVs would likely not be allowed herenH unmodified if their market share (which currently is infinitesimal) wereN larger. But then, the US does not have pedestrians West of the East coast 8-).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:39:47 +0100h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <3B1E4EC3.FF78E2C1@uk.sun.com>   Carl Perkins wrote:, > 3 > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes...SD > }Trying to stay away from this thread but; Honda already has their" > }version on the market. It is atI > }http://english.honda.ca/models/insight.asp, part of the page says "TherH > }future of cars is here. It's the Honda Insight. North America's firstE > }gasoline - electric hybrid automobile. And it's nothing short of amH > }technological breakthrough. It offers an incredible 3.2 litres/100 kmG > }on the highway, 3.9 litres/100 km in the city and an unheard of 1250 E > }km range on one tank of fuel. The Insight is also designed to meeteH > }California's stringent Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV) standard. SoF > }it not only performs well on the road but also on the environment." > }1G > }I'll leave it to someone else to translate 3.2 l/100 KM to American.:F > }I'm seriously considering this as my next car, but the local dealerI > }says every one they get in goes right out the door to a customer. IIRCv- > }there is a 8 month waiting list currently.i > ; > The 3.2 liters per 100 km is about 73.5 miles per gallon,s; > the 3.9 l/100 km is about 60.3 mpg, and the 1250 km rangea > is nearly 777 miles. >   ; The Volksvagen Lupo does 64.8 MPG on a combined urban/extra-3 urban mileage. Its a fairly standard diesel engine.   : Of course the VW US web site does not list it as a product( so I expect you cannot get it in the US.     Regardsi Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:54:48 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>@2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?) Message-ID: <3B1E4438.AFE891E6@bbc.co.uk>D   Bob Koehler wrote:  [ > In article <3B1CF199.6052C792@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:t > >a= > > Tim, biting his lip, hoping one day the USA will grow up.t > >a >3# > Why, you think we want more laws?u  X No, less laws, less hypocrasy and less running around trying to impose internal policiesC that have been proven totally ineffective on the rest of the world.g   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of. MedAS or the BBC.-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:58:22 -0400- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?4 Message-ID: <5jtT6.245371$Z2.2801316@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in message $ news:3B1E4EC3.FF78E2C1@uk.sun.com... >a > Carl Perkins wrote:h > >e5 > > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes...u >...< > > }technological breakthrough. It offers an incredible 3.2
 litres/100 kmkD > > }on the highway, 3.9 litres/100 km in the city and an unheard of 1250 >...= > > The 3.2 liters per 100 km is about 73.5 miles per gallon,r= > > the 3.9 l/100 km is about 60.3 mpg, and the 1250 km rangee > > is nearly 777 miles. > >i >b= > The Volksvagen Lupo does 64.8 MPG on a combined urban/extraa5 > urban mileage. Its a fairly standard diesel engine.h >...  @ My Father-in-law was just complaining the other day that his oldF diesel VW was getting 4.? litres/100KM, but his Datsun is only gettingD 7.? l/100KM. Nooooooooooooooo. Ignore that comment, this thread willF start arguing about diesels vs. non-diesel engines. I'm not even goingF to mention that in the early 90's I had a natural gas tank in my Chevy= Cavalier with a manual switch to go from natural to gasoline.j? Noooooooooooooo. Now we're going to argue about natural gas vs.T	 electric.i  ? Just curious Andrew, in England do you use Miles/U.S. Gallon ornB Miles/Imperial Gallon? Nooooooooooooo. Scratch that question, this= thread will start arguing about Metric measurements vs. otherA
 measurements.   C Maybe we can turn this thread over to VMS Marketing, that will killt it.l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:08:46 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>h2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e63c0$1@news.si.com>  C >When a prime minister has a majority government, he has reasonable0& expectation that his decisions will be >approved by the house.c  E Thank you for supporting my point.  You say "reasonable expectation". K Correct.  Not "guarantee".  A "reasonable expectation" of approval does not<G mean guarantee of approval.  Also, you say "has a majority government".cJ Everyone knows Bill Clinton did not have a Democrat-controlled legislature9 when he agreed to bring the treaty back for ratification.r  D >This essentially means that the head of the legislative assembly is effectively theaC >leader of that country with the president acting as a figure head.6  G Almost.  In the US, the legislature _is_ pretty  much the leader of thebK country, in terms of committing the country to a course of action.  Being ayE bicameral legislature means that there is not a single leader of thateJ legislature, so there's a check in place.  However, no one could be more a1 governmental figurehead than good ole Queen Bess.t  L >What is the point of having a president if his decisions are meaningless toI >international bodies because there is little chance that the legislativenF >assemblies will ratify what the president said his country would do ?  L When did "reasonable chance" turn into "little chance"?  You're changing the  rules in the middle of the game. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comtA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:10:59 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e6445$1@news.si.com>  L >If this fails then the government will normally fall and a general election is >called.  E Am I ever glad our goverment won't fall if the members of the variousa  branches disagree.  How fragile! --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comyA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comw= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventp< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:19:11 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>d2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e6631$1@news.si.com>  I >> Also, where did you get the (false) idea that the majority of SUVs are- fourI >> wheel drive and that four wheel drive is significantly more economicalv than? >> two wheel drive?  You're not presenting facts, just emotion.r >f* >I never said that 4wd is more economical.  J No, you didn't.  I typed it wrong.  I meant: "and that four wheel drive is" significantly less economical than two wheel drive?"d --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com3A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevents< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:57:53 +0100 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>s2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?) Message-ID: <3B1E5301.2238BD56@bbc.co.uk>l   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:   >e > H > F.Y.I: Chevy Cavalier is a small car, 2 doors, smallish back seat. TheH > only European equivalent I can think of is what was once called a FordD > Sierra. Ford sold something similar here in the States under theirA > Mercury brand, and called it a "Merkur". Under the hood, it wask@ > essentially a Mustang powertrain. Circa. mid-80's, 1984 or so.  9 ah, so its not a Vauxhall Cavalier then? I was wondering.J   > --  6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukt  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofr MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:21:52 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>-2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e66d2$1@news.si.com>  F >But there is something wrong when the economic structure of a countryL >results in the masses buying cars that are way bigger than they really need  J There you go again.  In _any_ free-market system, where does "need" _ever_ play a role and why should it? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comf= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventi< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:42:45 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>,2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e6bb7$1@news.si.com>  I >Yep. Chrysler was working on trying to build smaller more fuel efficient: carsE >back in the early 80s while the japanese already had well built fuel 	 efficienti >cars on the market.  K And back even earlier than that had their turbine engines that would run onsL paint thinner, fingernail polish remover, or whatever flammable liquid you'dI like.  It was a great concept.  Too bad the kinks couldn't be worked out.2 --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com.A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:45:17 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>r2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b1e6c4f$1@news.si.com>  H >Americans do not "NEED" cars that accelerate from 0-100 in 0.5 seconds, they are brainwashedD >into beleiving they absolutely need this, again by the advertising.  L Nonsense.  Americans aren't brainwashed into anything.  They know they don'tH "need" them.  They just want them.  And, if they can afford it, why not? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comsA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coms= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.312 ************************