1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 09 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 317       Contents: Re: .CLD file size limits  Re: A COBOL Question Re: Adding a CPU) Re: Astronomy programs for Alpha / VMS???  Bloated software Re: Bloated software Re: Bloated software RE: Bloated software RE: Bloated software Re: CA - the final straw Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars RE: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price WarsI CSWS/Apache: Combining AuthOpenVMS with site-specific authorization code? 3 Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences 3 Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences 3 Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences ( Re: How can i set a DLT tapedrive online( Re: How can i set a DLT tapedrive online@ Re: How to run TCL Scripts on Open VMS from the DCL Command Line2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status2 Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status Re: Is it just me?" Re: NCP to NCL command equivilants" Re: NCP to NCL command equivilants Re: NTPdate problem  Re: NYSE Re: NYSE Re: NYSE Re: NYSE Re: OT - demise of ML770 Re: OT - demise of ML770J Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and Alphas PCSI niggle  Portability. The myth continues  Re: problem with Decwindows 9 Re: problem with Decwindows - How to undo partial update? " Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CD Re: select() on non-sockets  Re: subject _OPEN_VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  RE: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: Threads.9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) ( TP Web Connector working without gateway UPDATE - Weblogic ) Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 - RE: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 - Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 - RE: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 < Re: Use of SYSMAN to keep password file in sync on 8 systems Re: VMS / NT integration/ Re: VMS Installation and set up (from a newbie) / Re: VMS Installation and set up (from a newbie) ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2001 05:54:25 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) " Subject: Re: .CLD file size limits5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-LdjgvDZ56W4q@localhost>   A On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:04:40, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff   Hoffman) wrote:   g > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-0LdddTghZQvV@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: D > :     does anybody know if there is a maximum size that an object % > :created from a .CLD file can have.  > 9 >   Likely, but I don't off-hand know the specific limit.  > & > :I ask because I added a new option I > :to one of my commands this evening and when I tried to use it, I got a G > :'Can't find item in table' message. It quotes the item it's looking  H > :for but that isn't the one I'm parsing. I think it's the next one in 5 > :the .CLD file (I've come home now so can't check).  >  >   Just how big is this CLD?  > 7 >   Can you provide the big CLD and a small reproducer?  > A >   Did you reinstall the command tables and reload them into the E >   existing process(es) in question and/or log in anew?  (I've made  " >   variations of this mistake...)   Hi SteveF                     it was, of course, idiot programmer error. PlonkerC is only one of the nicer names I called myself. My only defence is  A that after almost 12 hours I was a little tired and not thinking  	 straight.   F In effect, I introduced the problem nearly two months ago by intendingF to add a new option GET SUMCHECK. I added placeholders in my code that" would execute the function and the  " 	IF (CLI$PRESENT ('SUMCHECK') THEN  F statement. However, I never added SUMCHECK to the CLD file !!!!!  When I added GET FLAG_WORD the   8                  ELSE IF (CLI$PRESENT('FLAG_WORD')) THEN  A comes last  _after_ SUMCHECK option. Everything works fine until  F someone wants GET FLAG_WORD (which is what Thusday's rushing about wasE all in aid of) and then the attempt to find SUMCHECK fails, with the  D debugger the subsequent line gets carried out anayway and I can get F the FLAG_WORD at run time so at least that bit worked. The normal DIFF: and 'what's changed'  approach were a bit too subtle here.  F What panicked me was that another buffer, which to DCL$PARSE should beF read-only, did appear to have been modified as a rsult of the error inB that the last character had been over-written/deleted somehow. In D addition, in the CLD file the GET  verb is followed by the SUMCHECK  verb ;-) Hence my confusion.  F The moral of the tale - VMS normally gets it right. Generally, It has A to be something very weird for an error to be the OS and not the   programmer.     Cheers - Dave.   PS  E Of course, after all that,  the cause of the problem in what we were  E testing, for which we needed the FLAG_WORD, can't be reproduced with  F our environment anyway. The programmers I'm supporting  may need to goE to customer's site and use the real equipment . Thanks again for the   quick response tho'.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:48:11 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)  Subject: Re: A COBOL Question / Message-ID: <ti2egbp5qvdofc@news.supernews.com>   D CINDY@BILBO.UINDY.EDU wrote in <010607121725.41868@BILBO.UINDY.EDU>:  
 -- snip --  H >My question is -- can we install the 2.7 runtime programs and still runI >the 2.4 compilier without causing ourselves major headachs and also will E >we need to re-compile all the programs that we have so that they are   >using the new 2.7 RTL programs?  I I've been through a similar situation with DEC C.  We were ok installing  K the new runtime libraries, provided the file names did *not* conflict with  K the existing run time libary file names - they should be able to co-exist,  ! but one cannot replace the other.    ws   --  1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>    Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 11:24:44 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)  Subject: Re: Adding a CPU , Message-ID: <Nyaop6ozViPo@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  1 In article <3b2109a6.80321416@news.starnet.net>,  "    sfm1115@bjc.org (Shawn) writes:  H > If I were to take the 2nd CPU out of the test server and put it in theD > production server, is there anything that I need to do at the BootD > Level or OpenVMS level to let the server know I have added the 2nd > CPU.  F    The server will automatically know about the second CPU board. You C will need to load an SMP license on the production server to enable E the second CPU ( you should have one of these from the test server ). E The PAK will say something like "ASERVER xxxx SMP" at the top and the / product name in the data will be OPENVMS-ALPHA.   E    This is what is technically required, I don't know what is legally G required to transfer the second CPU license between servers, or if it's G even permitted. It seems reasonable to me that you should be allowed to I do this. You're not gaining anything, just moving around resources you've G already paid for - but "reasonable" is not necessarily a word I'd apply " to Compaq's licensing policies :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:18:10 -0500 ' From: Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU> 2 Subject: Re: Astronomy programs for Alpha / VMS???) Message-ID: <3B213302.7F005E6F@UIowa.EDU>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > q > In article <SfsHXBNEGwTX@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:  > N > :Does anyone know where I might find current versions of either of these, or > :the equivalent? > C >   The XEPHEM28 tool is on OpenVMS Freeware V4.0.  (If someone has C >   an update to that tool, I'll toss it onto the next Freeware...)   C 	XEphem (v3.4) is written by Elwood Downey and available in general  from his web site:  3 	http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xephem/index.html   > 	XEphem for OpenVMS v3.2.3 is on the Freeware v5.0 discs and I+ also have it on my anonymous ftp server at:   ; 	ftp://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/xephem-3_2_3-vms.zip   @ 	The old text-based ephem is still around, but not being updatedH by Elwood any more.  I should be able to dig it up if someone wanted it.  D >   I've also just located a Freeware Postscript file that generatesD >   monthly calendars, with ephemeral data included.  I'll drop thatE >   onto the next Freeware, and will make it available via the Compaq , >   website if there is sufficient interest.  C 	There are some lunar calendar PS files, etc. that are bundled with 0 the PCAL package on the Freeware v5.0 disc, too.   Regards,
 Rick Dyson --  H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _  _____                    http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst  --  INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsH | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems BT1000 GH       Office: 319/384-7016H  \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052               FAX: 319/384-7020   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:03:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Bloated software , Message-ID: <3B21217F.99241825@videotron.ca>  ; I have always worked on systems that were not well endowed.   L Recently, i have embarked on some GIS programming for personal stuff (to mapN my bicycle trips recorded with a GPS) and found myself having to process largeI amounts of data. Since I have never had the concept of a lot of memory, I G still have the instinct to find an algorithm that does not require huge I amounts of memory. And because I run on slow machines, I also try to find M eficient ways to process the data and feel guilty if I have to do something I N know is inefficient because I feel that if I spent more time thinking, I would# find a more efficient way to do it.   G Now, often, one hears about bloated microsoft or windows software. I am C curious whether the bloating on personal computers is the result of B programmers not having the concept of limited resources and codingN inefficiently, or whether the OS lacks tools that would allow them to use lessK memory resources, or whether the applications truly absolutely require that L much memory even when coded efficiently due to marketing requirements for so many functions.   K ALLIN1 used to be considered bloated, but back in the late 1980s, I used to J support 12 users on a microvax II, with a RD54 disk (154meg) and 16 meg ofM memory. And to tell you the truth, starting up allin1 didn't really take much K longer than it now takes to start office on a 400mhz machine with 64 meg of  memory and a single user.   I If the folks who designed ALLIN1 had made a X-windows port to support GUI I stuff, would they have developped something that would have been far less N memory/CPU demanding than MS products, or would the end result have been quite	 similar ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:19:08 -0400 + From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>  Subject: Re: Bloated software # Message-ID: <sb20ed07.077@aaas.org>   C I think the problem of both has to do with both bad tools and bad =  programmers.  H When I was a CS student in college a few years back, our professor had =J written COBOL on cards, so she was very familiar with concepts like "One =G compile per day" and finding the most efficient way to do things. Our = L learning language was Turbo Pascal on PCs, and people I studied with would =G literally beat the compiler into submission. While that professor did = G emphasize thinking things through and flow charts and psuedo code and = J optimization, the emphasis is less and less and processing power and ram = become less and less.   E As for tools, my hopes grow every day as Visual Basic's death draws = L nearer. There you have a language which doesn't require variable declaratio=L ns, and if you do you can have a variable of type variant. It tends to use =I a lot of APIs, so you have to hope they've been optimized because there = K isn't much you can do about it if they haven't (you can't see them). When = J you use a msgbox function, you know it's using a Windows API to generate =G it, but you really can't dig into the code and see what it's doing (I = B think you can if you use similar APIs in MS's C++ environment).=20  K Three of our programmers here are Microsoft programmers - VB, SQL Server, = K ASP. The stuff they turn out works (sometimes), and they can do it quick, = H but they spend their who lives following upgrade paths and changes. An =K example: We have an in house tracking system that was started three years = I ago - SQL Server backend MS Access front it. It sort of works, is about = F 80% complete, but has not been finished because after they added the =J ASP/Web front end they've spent the last year upgrading SQL 6.5 to SQL 7 =I and now to SQL 2000, they need to replace the Access front end, but now = L they don't know what with because VB is going away and development in Java =K and C++ would take way too long. The PC revolution has created throw away = L computing, where everyone can have 1000$ pc on their desk and we can write =I and roll out applications in 6 months, but we really screw ourselves on =  the life cycle end.=20  J On the other hand, we've been using our Financial Software (RMS/FMS) for =K almost 13 years now. We're pondering replacing it, which I think is a bad =  idea.   E >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 06/08/2001 3:03:29 PM >>> ; I have always worked on systems that were not well endowed.   J Recently, i have embarked on some GIS programming for personal stuff (to = map J my bicycle trips recorded with a GPS) and found myself having to process = large I amounts of data. Since I have never had the concept of a lot of memory, I G still have the instinct to find an algorithm that does not require huge I amounts of memory. And because I run on slow machines, I also try to find C eficient ways to process the data and feel guilty if I have to do =  something I J know is inefficient because I feel that if I spent more time thinking, I = would # find a more efficient way to do it.   G Now, often, one hears about bloated microsoft or windows software. I am C curious whether the bloating on personal computers is the result of B programmers not having the concept of limited resources and codingK inefficiently, or whether the OS lacks tools that would allow them to use =  lessH memory resources, or whether the applications truly absolutely require = thatK much memory even when coded efficiently due to marketing requirements for =  so many functions.   J ALLIN1 used to be considered bloated, but back in the late 1980s, I used = toJ support 12 users on a microvax II, with a RD54 disk (154meg) and 16 meg ofJ memory. And to tell you the truth, starting up allin1 didn't really take = muchJ longer than it now takes to start office on a 400mhz machine with 64 meg = of memory and a single user.   I If the folks who designed ALLIN1 had made a X-windows port to support GUIeI stuff, would they have developped something that would have been far lesssJ memory/CPU demanding than MS products, or would the end result have been = quiteP	 similar ?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:22:09 -0300q) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brr Subject: Re: Bloated softwaregL Message-ID: <OFF3050BAD.CB8CC63B-ON03256A65.006A1CCB@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ? You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in your comments about development ande
 resources!   But ...1= About ALLIN1 : I really didnt like ! It was heavy and machine > consumer....  DEC was not really sucessfull with this product.< I think OpenVMS servers cannot be "Office Servers" , because; office stuff dont need high availabily in most of cases, so  a WNT box is enough ! ! !r   Regards    FC        > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> em 08/06/2001 16:03:29  9 Favor responder a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>E             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms       Assunto: Bloated software7    ; I have always worked on systems that were not well endowed.d  H Recently, i have embarked on some GIS programming for personal stuff (to mapcH my bicycle trips recorded with a GPS) and found myself having to process largehI amounts of data. Since I have never had the concept of a lot of memory, I G still have the instinct to find an algorithm that does not require huge I amounts of memory. And because I run on slow machines, I also try to find K eficient ways to process the data and feel guilty if I have to do somethingu IeH know is inefficient because I feel that if I spent more time thinking, I would # find a more efficient way to do it.e  G Now, often, one hears about bloated microsoft or windows software. I am C curious whether the bloating on personal computers is the result ofPB programmers not having the concept of limited resources and codingI inefficiently, or whether the OS lacks tools that would allow them to use: lessK memory resources, or whether the applications truly absolutely require thateI much memory even when coded efficiently due to marketing requirements forw so many functions.y  K ALLIN1 used to be considered bloated, but back in the late 1980s, I used torJ support 12 users on a microvax II, with a RD54 disk (154meg) and 16 meg ofH memory. And to tell you the truth, starting up allin1 didn't really take muchK longer than it now takes to start office on a 400mhz machine with 64 meg ofa memory and a single user.b  I If the folks who designed ALLIN1 had made a X-windows port to support GUIoI stuff, would they have developped something that would have been far lessCH memory/CPU demanding than MS products, or would the end result have been quite 	 similar ?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:03:21 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Bloated softwarea- Message-ID: <0033000001187116000002L062*@MHS>   H =0AWhen the very first Wordperfect for Windows came out, I remember mak= ingsH the comment that any software product that took up 20 meg of disk space=  and7 didn't give you compiled code as output was a disk hog.    WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe% > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:53 PM-F > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET > Subject: Bloated softwareo >a >w= > I have always worked on systems that were not well endowed.> >j7 > Recently, i have embarked on some GIS programming foro > personal stuff (to map? > my bicycle trips recorded with a GPS) and found myself having  > to process large> > amounts of data. Since I have never had the concept of a lot > of memory, I< > still have the instinct to find an algorithm that does not > require huge? > amounts of memory. And because I run on slow machines, I alsoe
 > try to findi= > eficient ways to process the data and feel guilty if I haveh > to do something Ie> > know is inefficient because I feel that if I spent more time > thinking, I would % > find a more efficient way to do it.  >m: > Now, often, one hears about bloated microsoft or windows > software. I amE > curious whether the bloating on personal computers is the result ofID > programmers not having the concept of limited resources and coding? > inefficiently, or whether the OS lacks tools that would allowo > them to use less5 > memory resources, or whether the applications trulyr > absolutely require thatt: > much memory even when coded efficiently due to marketing > requirements for sor > many functions.y >t< > ALLIN1 used to be considered bloated, but back in the late > 1980s, I used to> > support 12 users on a microvax II, with a RD54 disk (154meg) > and 16 meg ofn> > memory. And to tell you the truth, starting up allin1 didn't > really take much> > longer than it now takes to start office on a 400mhz machine > with 64 meg of > memory and a single user.y >n? > If the folks who designed ALLIN1 had made a X-windows port toT
 > support GUIg= > stuff, would they have developped something that would haveK > been far less 9 > memory/CPU demanding than MS products, or would the end  > result have been quite > similar ?o >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:53:14 -0400  From: William_Bochnik@acml.com Subject: RE: Bloated softwaref> Message-ID: <OF16F6E6E7.8F183FAA-ON85256A65.006D3444@acml.com>  > considering it was a port (with little extra functionality) of) 5.1 which fit on a couple of floppies....       t                                                                                                                     t                     WILLIAM WEBB                                                                                    t                     <WWEBB1@email                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                                         t                     .usps.gov>                   cc:                                                                t                                          Subject:     RE: Bloated software                                          t                     06/08/2001                                                                                      t                     03:03 PM                                                                                        t                                                                                                                     t                                                                                                                             @ When the very first Wordperfect for Windows came out, I remember makingA the comment that any software product that took up 20 meg of diskg	 space and 7 didn't give you compiled code as output was a disk hog.l   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET % > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:53 PM = > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com atr INTERNET > Subject: Bloated softwareh >s >i= > I have always worked on systems that were not well endowed.  >t7 > Recently, i have embarked on some GIS programming foru > personal stuff (to map? > my bicycle trips recorded with a GPS) and found myself havingd > to process large> > amounts of data. Since I have never had the concept of a lot > of memory, I< > still have the instinct to find an algorithm that does not > require huge? > amounts of memory. And because I run on slow machines, I also,
 > try to findi= > eficient ways to process the data and feel guilty if I havee > to do something Ia> > know is inefficient because I feel that if I spent more time > thinking, I wouldU% > find a more efficient way to do it.l >n: > Now, often, one hears about bloated microsoft or windows > software. I am; > curious whether the bloating on personal computers is thel	 result ofR= > programmers not having the concept of limited resources ande coding? > inefficiently, or whether the OS lacks tools that would allow  > them to use less5 > memory resources, or whether the applications trulyr > absolutely require thatt: > much memory even when coded efficiently due to marketing > requirements for soa > many functions.t >v< > ALLIN1 used to be considered bloated, but back in the late > 1980s, I used to> > support 12 users on a microvax II, with a RD54 disk (154meg) > and 16 meg of-> > memory. And to tell you the truth, starting up allin1 didn't > really take much> > longer than it now takes to start office on a 400mhz machine > with 64 meg of > memory and a single user.f >f? > If the folks who designed ALLIN1 had made a X-windows port to.
 > support GUIe= > stuff, would they have developped something that would have  > been far less 9 > memory/CPU demanding than MS products, or would the ende > result have been quite > similar ?  >o          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,c@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroys# all copies of the original message.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:25:04 GMT ; From: "Curtis Rempel" <vmsguy.no.spam.here.please@home.com>a! Subject: Re: CA - the final strawt< Message-ID: <kE9U6.119885$Ub.1373781@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>  = "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.nospaam.com> wrote in message , news:9fqu2v$9ee$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...7 > It sounds like CA's message says that the software is 7 > licensed for a particular cpu class or configuration. 8 > Lots of software is licensed this way.  If you upgrade7 > your system to a more powerful cpu, the customer willo8 > frequently owe an upgrade fee.  The message appears to9 > be an attempt to enforce this provision of the license.  >i7 > Are you saying that you have NOT upgraded your system29 > and that the license key routines are wrongly enforcing-5 > the fictitious upgrade?  Or are you saying that you 7 > have upgraded your system, but that you don't want tod > pay the upgrade license fee?  K No system upgrades, hardware or software have been performed.  This is CA'seK broken license manager barfing on us.  Doesn't surprise me, since last yearuF when we upgraded our 8200's to GS60's, it broke.  Anticipating that itI would, we requested and install a new key - many times - only to discoveraF that CA hadn't heard of a GS60 (and thus their license management codeI hadn't either), despite the fact that they had been on the market for the, previous 6 months.   >cF > Curtis Rempel <vmsguy.no.spam.here.please@home.com> wrote in message& > news:Tm6U6.2790$6N.11670@shaw-ty2...I > > Effective next week, we are shutting down our ScheduleIT product from  CA, K > > formerly known as DECscheduler by the company formerly known as Digitalu/ > > (R.I.P.), and migrating to another product.i > > K > > All of a sudden the robust CA license scheme (ha!) has decided to bail,g > andiH > > apparently we are not the only affected customer.  We would probably stillr. > > be using it if they hadn't ripped out LMF. > >yL > > For any other unfortunate users of CA products who have not yet received aeE > > notice from CA via email or on your operator console, here is theu message  > we > > received this morning: > >u >s >  >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:34:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars , Message-ID: <3B211AC2.68250B7A@videotron.ca>   John Eisenschmidt wrote: > ' > Did everyone catch this announcement?- > 3 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.htmll  L This was announced some time ago during some analysts briefing. What is saysL essentially is that Compaq cannot raise its design/construction/distributionN efficiency any higher and thus can't lower prices. HP also announced a similar policy this week.g  L Note that other PC manufacturers have announced similar measures to stop theJ bleeding. I beleive that only DELL is in a position where it can drive the market.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:56:08 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brw' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars"L Message-ID: <OF5FAA40B7.D4E9CA60-ON03256A65.00673561@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Well  D Compaq will rethink their strategy and dont give much more attention7 to the Intel line and turning to Alph....... iPaq ! ! !s  F Compaq want to become  a wireless company !  I believe they should buyI a telco equipment company. They are trying to buy a Services company, buteH I dont know if this will work fine, because I am not sure if they manage datacenters $ with IBM, Sun, HP or Dell machines !  K HP is much more complete than Compaq, because they offer the whole solutionr3 to the customers.  From Servers, PCs, and Printers.I   Siemens is much more complete.     And....eI The great problem of Sun is: they dont have penetration to the "end-user"e market.W Imagine if they buy Palm.com.o   Regards    FC        > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> em 08/06/2001 15:34:42  9 Favor responder a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com)      ' Assunto: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warss     John Eisenschmidt wrote: > ' > Did everyone catch this announcement?o >i3 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.htmle  G This was announced some time ago during some analysts briefing. What is  says+ essentially is that Compaq cannot raise itsr  design/construction/distributionF efficiency any higher and thus can't lower prices. HP also announced a similarn policy this week.   H Note that other PC manufacturers have announced similar measures to stop the J bleeding. I beleive that only DELL is in a position where it can drive the market.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:12:40 -0500a1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsw' Message-ID: <3B2123A8.5F5EFAFE@fsi.net>d   John Eisenschmidt wrote: > ' > Did everyone catch this announcement?l > 3 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.htmle  F So - both Compaq product lines (VMS and non-VMS) will now be relegatedE to "niche" markets where price is less of concern than other factors.   D Huh. Guess it's time to get out of EDP. Compaq has just dug it's ownG grave. With that philosophy, even should Compaq become "OpenVMS, Inc.", H when their PC line dies, there'll still be no market for OVMS outside of
 its "niches".c   86 on DJD, over and out...   -- o David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:18:23 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>I' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warss, Message-ID: <3B213308.FA157D9C@videotron.ca>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:H > Compaq want to become  a wireless company !  I believe they should buy > a telco equipment companys  J Wireless is the soupe-du-jour flavour now that the dot-com has bombed. ButL wireless will also dot-bomb in less than a year when it is realised that fewL will be able to make money from wireless specific stuff. In order to pay forM the exhorbitant 3G licence prices, the wireless operators will have to chargeaI such for wireless services that these services won't become so succesfullrH especially if it costs more to do it "on-line" than to use your phone toF connect to a voice-mail system that delivers the same information with/ possibly fewer keystrokes and at a lesser cost.p  N The internet was a revolution in telecoms because of the fact that you are notK charged per kilopacket or kilocharacter (as was the case in X.25 networks).=I The types of transfer being done today on a regular basis would have been 1 unthikable in X.25 networks due to their pricing.o  N Similarly, wireless networks will have to come up with a paradign that fosters use and still make them money.  G That Compaq want a foothold in wireless, it is understanable. MicrosofteI (Compaq's "father") has failed to make any significant penetration in the I wireless companies and will support Compaq's efforst to portray its WinCE.L (PocketPC) device as a "wireless" device. But Compaq should not bet the farmG on wireless. They should just make sure that their PDA can connect to arJ wireless phone and have stuff such as BlueTooth just in case it takes off.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:25:19 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsk8 Message-ID: <PwaU6.804$Tc.94379@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  8 "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in message news:sb20af9a.077@aaas.org...e% Did everyone catch this announcement?o  1 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.html   D Yeah, and it's not particularly surprising. Better to concentrate onH high-margin stuff like Alphas. And Himalayas. And iPAQs (which yield farK better margins than do peecees). And services. Let Dell and Gateway duke it B out in a saturated market characterized by further margin decline.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:05:44 -0500f0 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>' Subject: RE: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars.C Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHMEOPELAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>u  H Never did understand why the push for this "wireless" thrills.  There isE just so much you can push to the public before they realize that theys/ don't need that nuclear powered car after all..a         -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]# Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:18 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars1    * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:H > Compaq want to become  a wireless company !  I believe they should buy > a telco equipment companyn  J Wireless is the soupe-du-jour flavour now that the dot-com has bombed. ButL wireless will also dot-bomb in less than a year when it is realised that fewL will be able to make money from wireless specific stuff. In order to pay forF the exhorbitant 3G licence prices, the wireless operators will have to chargeI such for wireless services that these services won't become so succesfull-H especially if it costs more to do it "on-line" than to use your phone toF connect to a voice-mail system that delivers the same information with/ possibly fewer keystrokes and at a lesser cost.   J The internet was a revolution in telecoms because of the fact that you are not K charged per kilopacket or kilocharacter (as was the case in X.25 networks).vI The types of transfer being done today on a regular basis would have been 1 unthikable in X.25 networks due to their pricing.   F Similarly, wireless networks will have to come up with a paradign that fostersg use and still make them money.  G That Compaq want a foothold in wireless, it is understanable. MicrosoftyI (Compaq's "father") has failed to make any significant penetration in the I wireless companies and will support Compaq's efforst to portray its WinCE L (PocketPC) device as a "wireless" device. But Compaq should not bet the farmG on wireless. They should just make sure that their PDA can connect to atJ wireless phone and have stuff such as BlueTooth just in case it takes off.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:54:02 GMTf4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsf: Message-ID: <eIcU6.1156$Tc.173053@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "arturo saavedra" <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in messaget= news:MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHMEOPELAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com...  >  >uJ > Never did understand why the push for this "wireless" thrills.  There isG > just so much you can push to the public before they realize that theyn1 > don't need that nuclear powered car after all..o  K Ssshhh.... the Compaq iPAQ Nuclear Powered Sport Utility Vehicle remains an J Unannounced Product subject to the terms of an Official Compaq Proprietary Information Disclosure!f  
 charlie matcon+ purveyor of Pure Plutonium PCMIA Power Paqsb >t >  >  >k > -----Original Message-----6 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]% > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:18 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma) > Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars  >o >r, > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:J > > Compaq want to become  a wireless company !  I believe they should buy > > a telco equipment company  >iL > Wireless is the soupe-du-jour flavour now that the dot-com has bombed. ButJ > wireless will also dot-bomb in less than a year when it is realised that fewoJ > will be able to make money from wireless specific stuff. In order to pay for-H > the exhorbitant 3G licence prices, the wireless operators will have to > chargeK > such for wireless services that these services won't become so succesfull0J > especially if it costs more to do it "on-line" than to use your phone toH > connect to a voice-mail system that delivers the same information with1 > possibly fewer keystrokes and at a lesser cost.  > L > The internet was a revolution in telecoms because of the fact that you are > not B > charged per kilopacket or kilocharacter (as was the case in X.25
 networks).K > The types of transfer being done today on a regular basis would have been 3 > unthikable in X.25 networks due to their pricing.  > H > Similarly, wireless networks will have to come up with a paradign that	 > fosters   > use and still make them money. > I > That Compaq want a foothold in wireless, it is understanable. Microsoft K > (Compaq's "father") has failed to make any significant penetration in the K > wireless companies and will support Compaq's efforst to portray its WinCE3I > (PocketPC) device as a "wireless" device. But Compaq should not bet the  farmI > on wireless. They should just make sure that their PDA can connect to a L > wireless phone and have stuff such as BlueTooth just in case it takes off. >    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 21:58:50 -0400 / From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) ' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsb* Message-ID: <9frvsq$e2f$1@lisa.gemair.com>  8 In article <PwaU6.804$Tc.94379@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:b > 9 >"John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in messageS >news:sb20af9a.077@aaas.org...& >Did everyone catch this announcement? >i2 >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.html >NE >Yeah, and it's not particularly surprising. Better to concentrate ontI >high-margin stuff like Alphas. And Himalayas. And iPAQs (which yield farIL >better margins than do peecees). And services. Let Dell and Gateway duke itC >out in a saturated market characterized by further margin decline.t >S  F I agree.  The PC price wars have really been going on for 10 years or E more.  All the big players already have razor thin margins.  The HPs,tG Dells, Gateways & Compaqs already cannot compete with the Mom&Pops and  E the eMachines (and even if eMachines goes under, there will always be   a new eMachines coming along...)  J At some point you have to say "what's the point?" and try to differentiateH yourself.  I just don't think customers are really looking at comparableF computers from two different companies and saying to themselves "sure,M I can get this Gateway, but I save $39.95 by buying this Dell."  More likely,iC they are saying, "Dell has the best reputation, I'll go with them."s  F All else being equal, you attempt to work on your reputation.  There'sI no way you can do that and fight a cut-throat price war at the same time.w  F The last round of price wars a few years ago knocked IBM clean out of G the PC market, losing IBM $1 Billion on PCs in a single year, but they eD preserved their reputation and came back stronger than ever.  CompaqC cannot afford a year where they lose $1 Billion on PCs.  Better to ,C retrench and focus on improving quality (and continually improving tG your manufacturing processes, something Dell has been keen on), not be aE dragged about trying to be the best at losing your shirt in a market d that's imploding.p  G Remember Packard-Bell?  They "won" the price wars and lost the survival  war.   >s >  >e >y   -Jordan HendersonS jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:41:01 GMT_4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsr: Message-ID: <11gU6.1591$Tc.303560@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   >nI > Remember Packard-Bell?  They "won" the price wars and lost the survivalt > war. >d  J Yep. And having served two years in the Southeast Asian War Games (my teamI took second place), I also remember the "we had to destroy the village tod	 save it."o  L The only real long-term threat I see from Dell is their potential ability toL commoditize beyond 4P Wintel boxes. CPQ still has decent differentiation and, value-add in the 8P space but that may fade.  H But imagine a commodity 32P Itanium machine. That would screw the entire! enterprise server contingent, no?@   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 18:20:32 GMT1= From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818)kR Subject: CSWS/Apache: Combining AuthOpenVMS with site-specific authorization code?, Message-ID: <9fr51g$14rs@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>  E I have a need to "authenticate" users against an application-specific K database.  If the users ID/password is present in that database, then thereaI is no need to authenticate them against my OpenVMS SYSUAF file.  However,hA if they're not, then I want them to at least have a valid OpenVMStF authorization before letting them into a directory that my CSWS/Apache webserver is serving out.k  D I started out ambitiously adding another MODULE, which called my ownE application-speicifc code and, on failing, called the worker routinest used by MOD_AUTH_OPENVMS.e  F Next I learned that like those routines, I'd probably need a privilegeC (SYSLCK, to be specific).  I started looking at the PRIVILEGED.EXE sE component and realized that since I'm a Multinet, not UCX, user, that.8 I didn't have the appropriate header files on my system.  I At this point I realized that this doesn't sit well with the very modular I flavor of Apache, or of Unix-derived code in general.  I realized that ithH MIGHT be legal to simply write a module that does MY required stuff (andJ that SYSLCK isn't that dangerous a privilege anyway, so that maybe I couldJ get away with having APACHE having that privilege by default), and includeI BOTH it and the the AuthOpenVMS module's command in my specific directoryp protections:   ....P LoadModule auth_openvms_module /apache$common/modules/mod_auth_openvms.exe_alphaP LoadModule auth_mylocal_module /apache$common/modules/mod_auth_mylocal.exe_alpha .... <Directory "/myprotected/">t     AllowOverride None     Order allow,deny     Allow from all     AuthType Basic5     AuthName "Supply Application UserID and Password"o     AuthMyLocal On     AuthUserOpenVMS On     require valid-user </Directory>  M My hope would be that this would be UNDERSTOOD by Apache that if a valid-user N state is achieved on completion of the AuthMyLocal procedure(s), then proceed.H Otherwise try the other procedure(s) implied by the "AuthUserOpenVMS On" command before giving up.1  N Have I totally misunderstood the way that Apache would interpret this?  Or the way that modules intermesh?p  G Incidentally, the "local application database" in this case is the PMDFiK POPSTORE.  Users defined THERE are not necessarially defined in the OpenVMSqD UAF file, but they're equally legitimate users of this protected web
 directory.  M +-"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+ N | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")            InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu | M | Systems Design Specialist - Lead       AT&T:      (814) 865-1818          |-M | Library Computing Services             FAX:       (814) 863-3560          |iM | E3 Paterno Library                     "I'd rather be dancing..."         |sM | Penn State University         A host is a host from coast to coast,       |lM | University Park, PA 16802     And no one will talk to a host that's close |eM | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>  Unless the host that isn't close            |wM | VMS GopherMeister             Is busy, hung or dead.                      |rM +------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+e9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999] 3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a> eJ <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a>   --	       /"\n#       \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGNc!        X        AGAINST HTML MAILr	       / \n   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 10:20:33 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>< Subject: Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences- Message-ID: <874rtqv1fy.fsf@prep.synonet.com>m  F If I can ask a favour of anyone who may have an EMA with nothing to do7 just yet :) And who would not mind running a few tests.:  B If you could lash up a set or 1,2,3,4,5 member raid sets, with allC the members of a set on ONE scsi bus, then see what you can get outoC of them. The historical constant for max performance has been 2, oroF rarely 3 drives per bus, but I'd like to have a check on it. Last time9 I saw this sort of test done was about 8 years or so ago.i  7 Cross posting to comp.arch.storage would not go astray.e  B Or just post the kit to the address below and I'll do the tests :)   -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.:@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jun 2001 00:08:53 -0500o+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) < Subject: Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences3 Message-ID: <UEhrSG8L2XdP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <874rtqv1fy.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: > H > If I can ask a favour of anyone who may have an EMA with nothing to do9 > just yet :) And who would not mind running a few tests.. > D > If you could lash up a set or 1,2,3,4,5 member raid sets, with allE > the members of a set on ONE scsi bus, then see what you can get outdE > of them. The historical constant for max performance has been 2, oreH > rarely 3 drives per bus, but I'd like to have a check on it. Last time; > I saw this sort of test done was about 8 years or so ago.n > 9 > Cross posting to comp.arch.storage would not go astray.o > D > Or just post the kit to the address below and I'll do the tests :) >   6 	Just curious as to why in the world would you want to= 	do that?  It doesn't make sense from a couple of directions.A= 	First and foremost SCSI arbitration is an issue with *about*t< 	3 or more active drives on a bus.  Second and most obvious,: 	the bus goes, so goes your RAID set and you and I are too= 	careful to do such things like that (have more than 1 member   	of a RAID set on a single bus).  " 	What are you trying to "measure?"   				Robb   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 00:57:03 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l< Subject: Re: esa12000fc and ema12000 differences/experiences( Message-ID: <9fsa62$lbe$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:UEhrSG8L2XdP@eisner.encompasserve.org...y   ...a  7 > Just curious as to why in the world would you want too> > do that?  It doesn't make sense from a couple of directions.> > First and foremost SCSI arbitration is an issue with *about*= > 3 or more active drives on a bus.  Second and most obvious, ; > the bus goes, so goes your RAID set and you and I are tooa> > careful to do such things like that (have more than 1 member! > of a RAID set on a single bus).a  L Not everyone requires 'non-stop' availability:  some people use RAID just toK make sure that a disk failure doesn't lose a large chunk of their data, andaG are willing to tolerate brief service interruptions to, e.g., replace aeG failed bus or adapter (or host, for that matter:  anyone who feels theyP@ don't need a cluster for availability could be happy with such a configuration).l   - bill   >d# > What are you trying to "measure?"n >t > Rob  >e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:32:26 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: How can i set a DLT tapedrive onlines3 Message-ID: <_S8U6.1250$fi2.32126@news.cpqcorp.net>i  i In article <9fpt3f$hl8$1@Snowflake_Obsidian.lion-access.net>, "Salvi Schrijen" <salvi@freeler.nl> writes:   =   Which OpenVMS version and which platform?  Which DLT drive?t@   (When posting, please remember to include information relevent?   to the question -- the OpenVMS FAQ has some guidelines on thetA   sorts of information that can be useful to include when posting @   a question.  The FAQ also obviously has answers to many of the    more common questions, too...)  A :I was wondering if it is possible to set a DLT tapedrive (with a  :tapecartridge in), online  G   If the drive is not online, then there is a hardware or configurationr9   problem between the host device drivers and the device.r  J :For instance if a user process is killed before completing the backupjob,D :the remaining DLT drive will dismount and unload the tapecartridge.  F   A correctly configured and correctly-operating tape drive is always G   online, and it becomes allocated when in use.  The tape drive should e5   be automatically deallocated upon process deletion.o  J :Is there any "utility" or freeware or trick within OpenVMS to do the same :job??  C   o fix the problem that prevented the tape drive from clearing its &     allocation when the process exited   o apply all relevent ECO kitsuF   o avoid the use of SHARE privilege, as this can adversely affect theC     last-channel-deassign logic and the associated device ownershipm3   o use the available OpenVMS VAX force-deallocatoriF   o quiesce the SCSI bus, and reconnect the tape drive as a different C     SCSI unit -- this might crash the system, or clobber a SCSI I/Ov
   o reboot    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:18:53 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)1 Subject: Re: How can i set a DLT tapedrive onlineaL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0806012318530001@user-2ive75t.dialup.mindspring.com>  P In article <3B210615.4845DB57@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <Agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> wrote:   > Actually, it's > O > set (devicename, in this case MAGTAPE is definitely a logical pointing to thet > devicename) /nounloada     I don't see a    $ SET devicename  0 in HELP.  And the SET command doesn't like this.   ???   
 > or, one cane >  > MOUNT/NOUNLOAD TAPE:  > Ok, this is in HELP for VMS 7.1-2.  I never noticed it before.   Thanks.e    E My baby steps into GKDRIVER to build a program to issue a SCSI "load"aG command to a DLT aren't going well.  It seems I can't use GKDRIVER on a J unit where MKDRIVER is already configured.  So if I did get the program toG work, all I could do would be the load command.  Then I could reboot toe@ configure MKDRIVER, and do something useful with the drive.  :-)  - Not too useful.  I'm looking for another way.s  D I did dig out the DLT 4000 manual.  There's definitely a "load tape"I command, as well as a command to read out the actual compression ratio ofu+ the tape.  So this puzzle is worth solving.t   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 17:19:53 -0500o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dI Subject: Re: How to run TCL Scripts on Open VMS from the DCL Command Linec3 Message-ID: <f$VAEhi5C73G@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  ` In article <HERT6.1196$fi2.30107@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sundaram P" <sundaramp@hotmail.com> writes:B > In Unix if you create a Tcl script in a file whose first line is >  > #!/usr/local/bin/tclshN > then you can invoke the script file directly from your shell if you mark the > file as executable.w  H Not in Tcl.  In DCL and native executables thiss is possible by setting H DCL$PATH.  The closest you can come would be to always create a DCL .comB file which invokes the the Tcl script of the same name via the Tcl shell.   e.g. a.com containsh $tclsh a.tcl  F then by setting DCL$PATH to the directory containing a.com, entering a( would eventually cause a.tcl to execute.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:43:52 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y; Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ status , Message-ID: <3B211CE8.E8D9A654@videotron.ca>   Paul Repacholi wrote:dB > The east grid and its deregulation is interesting. Melbourne hadB > severe power shortages, so the SA powerstations said flip-you toH > Adelaide and blacked out the city, sending the money to Melb at a hugeC > mark-up. What would have been a quiet $75000 couple of hours theyn > turned into $3 million.'  M This, and the fact that power utilities in Kalifornia were forbidden to enterm5 in long term supply contracts really makes me wonder.   N As one who has survived 10 days without power in Winter (not bad consider someI in the montreal area were over a month without power), it seems extremelytL obvious that electricity is a critical utility that can't go "on strike", at$ the same level as water and firemen.  L As a result, I would expect that government would in fact force utilities toG enter into long term contracts to ensure adequate supply of elecricity.s  N If a producer has just signed a 10 year contract, it seems to me that it wouldJ be a lot easier to cost justify expanding production facilities to perhapsM sell even more. But if you have no contract, can you really go to the bank toDJ borrow money stating that you MIGHT sell some of that power at exhorbitantM prices on the spot market where there are competitors all around your state ?n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:18:29 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger); Subject: Re: Hydro, was (OT) Current Microsoft V DOJ statusaL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0906010018300001@user-2ive75t.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B211CE8.E8D9A654@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeil% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n    iP > As one who has survived 10 days without power in Winter (not bad consider someK > in the montreal area were over a month without power), it seems extremely N > obvious that electricity is a critical utility that can't go "on strike", at& > the same level as water and firemen.  J They can't.  Probably all U.S. states have restrictions that prevent this.  N > As a result, I would expect that government would in fact force utilities toI > enter into long term contracts to ensure adequate supply of elecricity.,  G Well, they might force the contracts, but not the price.  Or they couldlI fix the price, and make selling power optional.  I don't really think theaD government could do both at once.  Our 13th constitutional amendment prohibits slavery.  J If they tried to say it doesn't prohibit enslaving a corporate entity suchI as a power company, the laws of economics would quickly kill the scheme. rA Nobody invests in enslaved corporations, and corporations withouti3 investors don't build or maintain power facilities.r  G Then the government would have to confiscate the power company's assetsoJ and attempt to operate the systems itself.  Instead of investments, they'dH rely on taxes.  If the taxes got high enough to make a rebellion likely,G they'd raise electricity rates.  If folks didn't want to buy, they'd be  forced to anyway.   G Oh, wait. California has already gone through part of this, and some ofeC the louder politicians are openly advocating most of the remainder,nI including the confiscation of assets and the enslavement of folks runninggC the companies.  (Though they mostly use prettier language than I amB using.)y  P > If a producer has just signed a 10 year contract, it seems to me that it wouldL > be a lot easier to cost justify expanding production facilities to perhapsO > sell even more. But if you have no contract, can you really go to the bank togL > borrow money stating that you MIGHT sell some of that power at exhorbitantO > prices on the spot market where there are competitors all around your state ?p  I It's even worse.  When they sell power, they don't necessarily get paid. oC So the contract isn't really a contract after all.  Some California-J utility companies simply can't borrow any more money, or pay their bills. I Once they stop making payrolls for any length of time, the blackouts will ; no longer be "rolling".  I don't think it will go that far.D  - We now return to our regularly scheduled VMS.e   -- u Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:23:51 -0400 . From: warren sander <warren.sander@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Is it just me?v* Message-ID: <3B217AA7.C6801686@compaq.com>  & Watch the OpenVMS estore.. coming soon   Paul Repacholi wrote:o  % > Koloth <koloth@tmisnet.com> writes:e >sD > > Is it just me or do other people think that the CD holder in the< > > OpenVMS V7.3 distribution would also work for music CDs? >eG > > Is it possible to order just the CD case with its, "Rich Corinthian H > > Leather," cover?  Several people were eyeing my CD case.  Could be a- > > better marketing gimic than the umbrella.  >p7 > > "OpenVMS mean you have time to listen to the music"e >tG > Someone send this man a free CD folder, and nominate him for a Compaq # > sponsored beer at the next DECUS.t >l > Bloody good idea!! >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.rB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:31:46 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d+ Subject: Re: NCP to NCL command equivilantsu, Message-ID: <3B211A11.E6A0E422@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:: > I nominate this post for inclusion into the OpenVMS FAQ!  L I think it should go on the on-line HELP in VMS under the NCL help topic for* those unfortunatle to have to run DECNET 5    K > Thanks to Steve's posting, I would hope that others will see that the NCLaH > command syntax is not all that difficult or verbose... just different.  M It isn't so much the commands themselves. One can use help to figure out. ButtJ it is the structure of the configuration of your network and the lack of a configuration file.   E When I had installed decnet5, it had dumped a whole bunch of files inyM sys$manager (or is it sys$startup ?) and finding out what files did what, anddW which file issues the command that generates too many opcom messages was the challenge.   N So it in my case, it wasn't so much what the syntax was, but rather where wereM all the commands hidden in those files, and what could I do to override those"N commands and be sure that my overriding them will stay and not be crushed when7 I run some decnet utility that regenerates those files.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:58:45 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)+ Subject: Re: NCP to NCL command equivilantssL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0806012358450001@user-2ive75t.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B211A11.E6A0E422@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e  ( > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:< > > I nominate this post for inclusion into the OpenVMS FAQ! > N > I think it should go on the on-line HELP in VMS under the NCL help topic for, > those unfortunatle to have to run DECNET 5  G There is some NCP --> NCL conversion information in the DECnet 5 docs. / For example:  P http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6499/6499pro_001.html#convert_ncp_ncl  J There's also the x-windows interface to NCL, which can be told to spit out0 ncl command corresponding to whatever you click.      O > It isn't so much the commands themselves. One can use help to figure out. But:L > it is the structure of the configuration of your network and the lack of a > configuration file.   9 There are a bunch of configuration files, written in NCL.g  G > When I had installed decnet5, it had dumped a whole bunch of files incO > sys$manager (or is it sys$startup ?) and finding out what files did what, andoJ > which file issues the command that generates too many opcom messages was the challenge.   Yes, that was annoying.a  P > So it in my case, it wasn't so much what the syntax was, but rather where wereO > all the commands hidden in those files, and what could I do to override thoseeP > commands and be sure that my overriding them will stay and not be crushed when9 > I run some decnet utility that regenerates those files.   G I discovered fairly early that DECnet 5 is a lot easier to use once youaH read the manuals.  Because it is slightly weird, it doesn't pay to startH in the middle of the manual like many in this group are probably used to doing.   -- s Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com,   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 08:05:47 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: NTPdate problem- Message-ID: <87hexqv7ok.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  ) okrg@my-deja.com (Oleksii Krykun) writes:s  F > Trying to use NTPdate on VAX4000-200 under VMS5.5-2H4. Unfortunately< > I have UCX3.2 installed. This release hasn't NTP built-in.  D > NTPdate works fine excluding daylight savings. I modified config.hF > according to my timezone settings. But NTPdate sets up standard time > instead of daylight savings.  B NTP use UTC, only UTC and nothing but UTC. It never has, and never< will use local time, summer time, time off or anything else.   -- b< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:25:26 -0700, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: NYSEe4 Message-ID: <9frcbm$5tfan$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messaget7 news:5a85bce2.0106080924.3bb3556f@posting.google.com...13 > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messager; news:<vk5U6.432190$fs3.68102873@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>...-I > > Anybody know what kind of computer system the New York Stock Exchanget uses?.K > > All trading has been halted due to a "computer glitch".  Of course thatg cou  > > ld mean almost anything. >RC I know they use lots of tandem's.  But, the news I read said it was2J a software problem from the previous night's install.  Interesting that weD also do our standard installs on thursday nights because any morning problemsE on a friday are considered less disruptive than (say) monday morning.*    Jim   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 17:34:03 -0500o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a Subject: Re: NYSEu3 Message-ID: <8lmiu4Aa73bb@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  h In article <vk5U6.432190$fs3.68102873@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:M > Anybody know what kind of computer system the New York Stock Exchange uses?rM > All trading has been halted due to a "computer glitch".  Of course that coub > ld mean almost anything.  ) A great many of them.   Could be any one.e  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group1E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingj   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:14:47 +0200.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t Subject: Re: NYSEO, Message-ID: <3B214E57.BE4BFBAB@infopuls.com>   Scott Vieth wrote: > o > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<vk5U6.432190$fs3.68102873@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>...oO > > Anybody know what kind of computer system the New York Stock Exchange uses?tO > > All trading has been halted due to a "computer glitch".  Of course that coun > > ld mean almost anything. > C > I was thinking exactly the same thing this morning when I saw thei6 > news.  I hope the problem was not with a VMS system. > F > One of the four exchanges in Chicago runs on VMS.  I know one of theD > other ones in Chi-town(CBOT?) made a big deal out of the fact that! > they're running the show on NT.a >  > -Scott  ? CBOT is VMS, SWX Swiss Exchange trading system they co-operate.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:39:17 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n Subject: Re: NYSEs, Message-ID: <3B219A63.AE4E5CFD@videotron.ca>  L The chair of the NYSE, interviewed on CNN went to great lengths to exonerateL the vendors of hardware and acknowledged that the problem was self inflicted, with a piec of software developped in house.  X So Compaq doesn't have to worry about spinning that one. (either tandem or NT machines).   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 10:06:03 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>! Subject: Re: OT - demise of ML770v- Message-ID: <878zj2v244.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  5 > > With only circa 350 systems sold, I think so.....o  M > > Some 350+ of the boxes have been sold so far.  I also saw where Unisys is>= > > adding about 200 folks to support this Datacenter effort.e  F > > If the ramp-up to Datacenter has been 'much slower than expected',E > > how many were expected to be sold by now?  Does this box have VAX  > > 9xxx written on it?r  E > I would venture to "guess" that CPQ had fewer than 20 revenue shipseC > of this box. Unisys was damn near giving away seed systems, folksR > just weren't buying.  B I seem to recall that either the Reg or TheInquirer stated 7 sales& for the UK when the Q pulled the plug.  D > A four-pack of ProLiant 8x00 systems costs >30 percent less than aD > 32-way ML770 cost. Plus, the ML770 had I/0 and scaling issues that+ > put some of the older DEC boxes to shame.o  B Well, just consider that you can get 42 1U systems in a rack, evenC if you don't have one of the old phone Co 10' ones. Not that either   strikes me as even a bad idea...    = > No matter. CPQ's working on its own McKinley 32-way that'll D > incorporate a bunch of WildFire technology. Should be a nice piece; > of work when it comes out (Intel willing) late next year.e  C Can we quote you on this next year? Print the post and tie it to asyE anchor perhaps. Me thinks you may have to eat dog-crow for that line!dF BTW, I'm assuming 'next year' means 'some where in the distant future,	 perhaps'.g   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov -   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:57:07 GMTr4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>! Subject: Re: OT - demise of ML770n: Message-ID: <7ggU6.1708$Tc.315984@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:878zj2v244.fsf@prep.synonet.com...U8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > 7 > > > With only circa 350 systems sold, I think so.....c >tL > > > Some 350+ of the boxes have been sold so far.  I also saw where Unisys is? > > > adding about 200 folks to support this Datacenter effort.  >$H > > > If the ramp-up to Datacenter has been 'much slower than expected',G > > > how many were expected to be sold by now?  Does this box have VAX  > > > 9xxx written on it?h >tG > > I would venture to "guess" that CPQ had fewer than 20 revenue shipsgE > > of this box. Unisys was damn near giving away seed systems, folks- > > just weren't buying. >-D > I seem to recall that either the Reg or TheInquirer stated 7 sales( > for the UK when the Q pulled the plug.  L I am aware of an energy company in the USA that bought five of these beasts,& but that's the only site I'm aware of.   >-F > > A four-pack of ProLiant 8x00 systems costs >30 percent less than aF > > 32-way ML770 cost. Plus, the ML770 had I/0 and scaling issues that- > > put some of the older DEC boxes to shame.8 >6D > Well, just consider that you can get 42 1U systems in a rack, evenE > if you don't have one of the old phone Co 10' ones. Not that eithert" > strikes me as even a bad idea...  K Or 280 low-power Intel CPUs in a QuickBlade rack when that sucker ships (bya  the end of the year says the Q).   >0 >c? > > No matter. CPQ's working on its own McKinley 32-way that'll F > > incorporate a bunch of WildFire technology. Should be a nice piece= > > of work when it comes out (Intel willing) late next year.h >sE > Can we quote you on this next year? Print the post and tie it to asmG > anchor perhaps. Me thinks you may have to eat dog-crow for that line!uH > BTW, I'm assuming 'next year' means 'some where in the distant future, > perhaps'.a  J McKinley availability will be the gating factor. The Compaq system will be. ready to go. Hence the (Intel willing) caveat.   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 09:40:25 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>S Subject: Re: OT: Open Source and the Providence and Worchester Railroad, and Alphasr- Message-ID: <87d78ev3au.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  > > In article <87y9r51wcg.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi  > <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:  E > > ... when sources where closed off, the reason stated was not that D > > they where being ripped off, but that they resulted in a slew of; > > one-off modified systems that made support a nightmare.c   > Sounds like linux...  E No way! These people generally knew the stuff REAL well. At one stage B there seemed to be a contest for the most outragous SPR. Brown UniE ended up with that one. Another was a TOPS-10 problem with a specificiD device config sending the monitor to lala land. Then there was a fixF from DEC and another SPR on a bug in the fix. No they had not seen theF fix, just figured what would be done and how it would break in another config!   - Barb, do you remember any of the better ones?.   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov h   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 07:03:46 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: PCSI niggle- Message-ID: <87lmn2vajx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>m  G One small detail with PCSI, it asks if you want the defaults, THEN askss= if you want to see them. Could this order be reversed please?    -- u< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 04:58:45 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Portability. The myth continues0 Message-ID: <87y9r2vgca.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com>  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:   & > These are a good but hard questions:> > - should we aim for portability from VMS to other platforms?: > - how do we get people to use the language(s) of choice?  F Well, what 'other platform'? Oh, unix, well, to which language on thatB other platform? C, yes fine, do you mean with pcc call convention,, 'standard' C calling, or the gcc variety?...  ? Note, that this sort of thing bites before you even have a full A program, and that it ignores the hackmem problem. So at the best, / portability is a myth, and is normally a fraud.o  > If we get further up the chain, it gets worse. How do you do a? 'portable' ast? How do you portably turn them off in a criticale> section? Note you don't even have to use an AST to be 'got' by the second.u  D If I could have one thing happen to enhance portability, it would beB for T64 to have *A* call standard, and all languages adhere to it,< and for it to be forced into COE as an absolute requirement.     --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:08:36 -0400' From: "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> $ Subject: Re: problem with Decwindows, Message-ID: <9fr4bm$nvb$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  F I have rebuilt my system disk to a VMS 7.1-2 version.  Upgraded to the 7.2-1.  RebootedK  with out problems.  I tried to apply the VMS0721_UPDATE-0200 patch and got K complaints about disk space insufficient and needing to make APB contiguouslL and WRITEBOOT and then it continues and when I say use standard shadowing it
 complainedB about PCSI$DESTINATION not defined and that I should terminate.  IK terminated but it didn't roll anything out so I am in quasi-state.  I guessrK I will try the "PRODUCT REMOVE" command but I don't know if that works withsJ updates much less incomplete updates.  I also dumped the header of the APBH executuable and it does appear to be contiguous so I don't know what the7 problem is there.  Since I started with a restored diskNH with 500000 blocks free, I would not think that the disk would be in bad shape.  I Appreciate the alert!  My Alphastation (DEC3000) is gummed up but that ist why we try things on it first.    @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:iP7U6.1242$fi2.31797@news.cpqcorp.net... I > We are in the process of debugging this right now.  This ONLY occurs on J > systems that have been UPGRADED from a previous version of VMS.  A cleanI > installs of V7.2-1 work fine, the driver from both the upgrade, and theuI > clean install are the same.  For some unknown reason, the SCB vector isf noto/ > getting written during driver initialization.5 >t% > So far, only 4100's have seen this.  >$ >a< > Koloth wrote in message <3B207B10.BCEE7953@tmisnet.com>...C > >Are there any errors showing up in the error log like unexpected 
 interrupts > or$ > >bug checks with a buc check of 0? > >oB > >We are experiencing some problems with 4100s.  When we start up
 Decwindows > thes" > >error formater ERRFMT goes wildJ > >because it is logging thousands of errors.  It would be helpful to know if* > >anyone else experienced this problem on > >Alphas other than 4100. > >-
 > >Regards > >- > >Cass Witkowskiu > >1 >: >4 >0   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:28:16 -0400' From: "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> B Subject: Re: problem with Decwindows - How to undo partial update?, Message-ID: <9fr912$3mq$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  K In addition:  I can't remove because PRODUCT didn't complete - at least theXL update does not appear when I use the command "PRODUCT Show History".  I mayG try renaming all the .*_OLD back.  I wish I knew more about what it hadp actually done.    2 "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:9fr4bm$nvb$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov...H > I have rebuilt my system disk to a VMS 7.1-2 version.  Upgraded to the > 7.2-1.  RebootedI >  with out problems.  I tried to apply the VMS0721_UPDATE-0200 patch andc got B > complaints about disk space insufficient and needing to make APB
 contiguousK > and WRITEBOOT and then it continues and when I say use standard shadowing  it > complainedD > about PCSI$DESTINATION not defined and that I should terminate.  IG > terminated but it didn't roll anything out so I am in quasi-state.  I  guessnH > I will try the "PRODUCT REMOVE" command but I don't know if that works withL > updates much less incomplete updates.  I also dumped the header of the APBJ > executuable and it does appear to be contiguous so I don't know what the9 > problem is there.  Since I started with a restored disktJ > with 500000 blocks free, I would not think that the disk would be in bad > shape. >tK > Appreciate the alert!  My Alphastation (DEC3000) is gummed up but that isa  > why we try things on it first. >t > B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message/ > news:iP7U6.1242$fi2.31797@news.cpqcorp.net...sK > > We are in the process of debugging this right now.  This ONLY occurs onrL > > systems that have been UPGRADED from a previous version of VMS.  A cleanK > > installs of V7.2-1 work fine, the driver from both the upgrade, and thenK > > clean install are the same.  For some unknown reason, the SCB vector is  > nota1 > > getting written during driver initialization.N > >e' > > So far, only 4100's have seen this.p > >n > >m> > > Koloth wrote in message <3B207B10.BCEE7953@tmisnet.com>...E > > >Are there any errors showing up in the error log like unexpectedX > interrupts > > or& > > >bug checks with a buc check of 0? > > >iD > > >We are experiencing some problems with 4100s.  When we start up > Decwindows > > theN$ > > >error formater ERRFMT goes wildL > > >because it is logging thousands of errors.  It would be helpful to know > if, > > >anyone else experienced this problem on > > >Alphas other than 4100. > > >l > > >Regards > > >  > > >Cass WitkowskiC > > >  > >  > >0 > >5 >0 >    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 16:12:36 -0500 9 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) + Subject: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CDf3 Message-ID: <$URGhu3Rpv4p@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  E Has any one used JUMP from the OpenVMS Freeware (thanks Hoff!) disk? e  G We just started using it On Alpha VMS V7.2 to control access to genericoH accounts (OPERATOR, INGRES, ORACLE, etc). I've followed the installationK instructions, have all of the required privs on the installed image (I even8D added BYPASS but that didn't help), and have all of the files in theK JUMP_ROOT directory set s:werd, o:werd and the .exe and .dat files have w:e> and w:r respectively.w  G I thought it was all working fine. But lately any time a non priv. userrK tries to JUMP to an account that they are authorized to go to, they get the  following error:  F CERES::KAPLOW 14:51:05   (DCL)   CPU=00:00:00.64 PF=473 IO=1212 MEM=68 $ JUMP KAPLOWROeG %SYSTEM-F-NOPRIV, insufficient privilege or object protection violation   J I can't figure out what changed to break this thing. And it's not just oneF system, but a standalone development system running JUMP V3.4 from theF Freeware V5 disk and our production cluster running JUMP V3.0 from theK Freeware V4.0 disk. I don't speak PASCAL, or have a PASCAL compiler, but inDH reading the source there appear to be a few SS_NOPRIV exits, but none of% those conditions seem to apply to me.h  1 here are the logicals I've defined on the system:w   $ SHOW LOGICAL JUMP* ...h:   "JUMP_ACCESS_LIST" = "JUMP_ROOT:[000000]JUMP_ACCESS.DAT"9   "JUMP_AUDIT_TRAIL" = "JUMP_ROOT:[000000]JUMP_AUDIT.DAT"m   "JUMP_DOUBLE_CHECK" = "FALSE"a   "JUMP_MATCH_BOTH" = "FALSE"e&   "JUMP_MINOR_PRIVS" = "NETMBX TMPMBX"$   "JUMP_ROOT" = "UTILITY_62:[JUMP.]"*   "JUMP_SECURE_DIR" = "jump_root:[000000]"   "JUMP_SELF" = "TRUE"(   "JUMP_USER_DIR" = "jump_root:[000000]"  G Here are the lines in the JUMP_ACCESS.DAT file for my non-priv account:h  . $ SEA JUMP_ROOT:[000000]JUMP_ACCESS.DAT KAPLOW kaplow          : kaplowro kaplow          : wolpak  + And the lines from the JUMP_AUDIT.DAT file:O   $ TYPE/TAIL=9 JUMP_AUDIT.DATI 08-JUN-2001 11:12:54 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO SOLAR::KAPLOWRO> RTA1: RTA1:sI 08-JUN-2001 11:13:34 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO SOLAR::KAPLOWROd RTA1: RTA1:iI 08-JUN-2001 11:14:37 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO SOLAR::KAPLOWROa RTA1: RTA1: I 08-JUN-2001 11:15:50 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO SOLAR::KAPLOWROn RTA1: RTA1:aA 08-JUN-2001 11:17:18 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO/NOAUDITe SOLAR::KAPLOWRO RTA1: RTA1:oH 08-JUN-2001 14:46:25 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO MARS::KAPLOWRO RTA1: RTA1:nH 08-JUN-2001 14:47:43 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO MARS::KAPLOWRO RTA1: RTA1:rH 08-JUN-2001 14:51:25 KAPLOW PRIV violation: JUMP KAPLOWRO MARS::KAPLOWRO RTA1: RTA1:tJ 08-JUN-2001 14:54:40 KAPLOWRO  to  [1,4] = [SYSTEM] Host: 10.3.134.93      Port: 1056 TNA2106: TNA2106:  E I get the expected results if I try to jump to a non-existant account3; (whether it is in the data file or not), or jump to myself:r  
 $ jump wolpakt8 %JUMP-F-INVUSER, Invalid username - user does not exist. %RMS-E-RNF, record not found $ jump bogusname8 %JUMP-F-INVUSER, Invalid username - user does not exist. %RMS-E-RNF, record not found
 $ jump kaplow C %JUMP-I-SAMEUIC, Same UIC as current ([101,666]) - no action taken.- $   I Likewise, from my account with all privs, which should be allowed to jump>- anywhere, I can jump to another account fine:D   ALLjump systemr< %JUMP-S-JUMPED, KAPLOWRO jumped to SYSTEM ([1,4] = [SYSTEM])0 %JUMP-I-DEFAULT, Default is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] ALL  E Any idea why nonpriv users might be getting a NOPRIV error from JUMP.s    D BTW, JUMP's author / submitter, Jonathan Ridler, is no longer at TheE University of Melbourne. I tried e-mailing him a while ago, and got at< response from their postmaster that he isn't there any more.   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 06:57:16 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>$ Subject: Re: select() on non-sockets- Message-ID: <87pucevaur.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  7 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:   E > select() only works with sockets.  This function, along with fork() B > are the highest on the list of things to enhance for better UNIXC > compatability.  I would imagine that files, mailboxes, pipes, and D > the X11 connection are all things that would be done.  There is noE > schedule for this work (yet).  But as you might imagine, it is highe > on our list.  ) From release.txt of the 'port' library...a  ?        * A poll function that can accept event flags as well as-@           sockets. This makes it easy to integrate X events into           poll/select code.h   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.r@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov 0   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 10:34:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: subject _OPEN_VMS- Message-ID: <87vgm6tm7y.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  ) carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:   K > I would (maybe, if I had a very high fever) suggest that the next versionaI > be named UltraVMS. Then the version after that could be Ultra^2 VMS. OrnM > perhaps an even more radical change to VeForce which could come in multipleyG > levels - VeForce MS at the low end and VeForce Ultra at the high end.i-               ^                             ^m  D Perhaps you meant to put an 'a' there? That would be compatible withE the new improved 7.3 packaging :| No, it couldn't include Ultra, we'd0' have to wait another lifetime for that.a   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.t@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:11:43 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>g Subject: Re: The future of VMS$ Message-ID: <3b211579$1@news.si.com>  @ >What I would like to see is a tool which automatically converts< >the command line interface of foreign programs to a CLD/VMS >style interface.P  A It's a simple thing to produce.  Use the following as a template:c   DEFINE VERB foreignd1     IMAGE foreigndir:foreign, CLIFLAGS( FOREIGN )l -- EA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comUA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comC= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent.< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:15:58 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>e Subject: Re: The future of VMS$ Message-ID: <3b211679$1@news.si.com>  * >Our environment is mainly Fortran (numberJ >crunching, and I'm old, or so I'm told).  We employ younger staff for the( >whizz-bang GUI stuff written in C et al  I I've never seen anyting written in C (or Pascal, or PL/I, or..., with the C exception of, maybe, Ada) that couldn't also be written in Fortran.l --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com-A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comc= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventt< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:02:42 -0500% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>p Subject: Re: The future of VMS/ Message-ID: <ti2bl4lr3vhkca@corp.supernews.com>w   Brian Tillman wrote:  + >>Our environment is mainly Fortran (numbernK >>crunching, and I'm old, or so I'm told).  We employ younger staff for the ) >>whizz-bang GUI stuff written in C et ale > K > I've never seen anyting written in C (or Pascal, or PL/I, or..., with thefE > exception of, maybe, Ada) that couldn't also be written in Fortran.a > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comlC > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >  >  >   G I wrote some statistical stuff recently which links with our PI system  L running on OpenVMS. I used Fortran 90 to write the code (It was my 1st time K to use Fortran 90) and I found that it is a very nice language.  Recursion rK is what I missed most in Fortran 77 and why I went to other languages like cL PL/I and Pascal but since 90 does recursion I expect  to do more Fortran 90  in the future.   -- r Keith Browne kbrown780@isd.netS   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 04:34:55 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMS- Message-ID: <873d9aww0g.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:   C > This is in deed very evil and that shouldn't of course not in anylC > programming language. Sometimes there is weaker form of this: you D > can write it but it will behave differently on different platformsC > but at least equal (i.e. defined, deterministic) on one platform.c  0 If you think that, then you do not understand C.  E The compiler can do *ANYTHING* with an undefined construct. IncludingeH radom inconsistant return, faulting, feeding you an unterminated string," deleting all files it can access.   B The fact that most compilers emit fairly inoculous code is becauseE they had a nice day, it is easier, and luck. If there are two or morelC bits of undefined code, than even that is off if they can interact.   > The C standard does not define a language, it incants a curse.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov s   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 17:03:55 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)v Subject: RE: The future of VMS3 Message-ID: <JHHsqzrK$ZNY@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  _ In article <9fok9f$ufr$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >  > My list starts out with: >   A Bourne Shell clone .& >   A C-shell clone (most likely tcsh) >   make > > > What particular utilities would other people like to see put! > on the list for consideration??   G I know of lot of the gnu variations on UNIX stuff actually work on VMS.aI These are things I might be able to use that I havne't seen, but do checkc! to see if they haven't been done.i  E Korn shell (then you can skip Bourne shell), you could start with the ' public domain ksh that some Linux have.b  G xman.  OK, I hate man but xman makes it survivable.  Every now and thenvH I get something else "ported" from UNIX but only a man page full of roff (troff, nroff?) formatting..  D find (DIR/SELECT doesn't have an option like -exec).  Use the CompaqF porting library so / can be the list of disk names, but fix it so that, the MOUNT logical name (the info returned byH f$getdvi(device,"logvolnam") is displayed instead of the physical device name.S  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationt= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupwE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingf   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:57:17 +0100. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMSC Message-ID: <31bU6.20382$YB3.3287090@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>   C Christof Brass wrote in message <3B201325.339FFCB1@infopuls.com>...t  > >The hospital already used a MUMPS package which collected theA >medical results from some laboratories. This also ran on VMS but@A >the SysAdmin showed me that it was a single huge process insteadh= >of the other VMS apps which had several processes which made > >resource management easier. The MUMPS SW was like an elephant7 >and unfortunately not as stable as the other programs.lA >To get an impression I looked at the sources of this laborartoryi@ >SW and was really frightened. The syntax is awful and it seemedA >that there was a substantial lack of modularisation features ands= >abstraction. I then asked the other company to send us a few > >examples of their sources because I hated the hospital buying@ >similar disorganised SW and at that time I wasen't sure if this: >was a basic MUMPS problem or an individual SW developmentA >problem. Alas the other company didn't dare to send us one piecet >of properly developed SW. >e@ >Would you like to give a short example why you think that MUMPS >is a superior system?  0 Thank you for this somewhat more reasoned reply.  B Mumps indeed can be written very badly and there is nothing in theJ language to prevent this. Its very innate flexibility will allow people to8 misuse it. This is also true of many powerful languages.B Mumps came originally from the medical arena where money pressures@ tended to overrule other considerations. This led to programmersE (and medical staff) writing code that fitted in the very small memorya< confines of a PDP where Mumps was everything - the language, database and operating system.> With these constrictions style got left behind for efficiency.L Many of those systems simply got ported to the Vax environment (and onwards)1 with very little effort put into tidying them up.b  D Latter versions of ANSI and ISO standard mumps (BTW it was the third languageE to gain ANSI approval) added features that allowed more style such asR	 functions   and procedures calls.E Current incarnations include Cache from Intersystems which allows theA
 programmerH to use their own preference of styles and coding interfaces. Its unified data structuresiE allow simultaneous access using object, SQL or traditional scripting.uI To someone who has used this system for many years the best part of Mumps J is that the data and the language are the same thing. We do not need tools or processesK to access or retrieve the data, it is simply there to be used. Purists hated this but it makes ( for very powerful and efficient systems.  J The key thing to this forum is that this language and database is a sucess story for VMS.I The only Digital benchmarks performed showed it totally outperforming ther two top contenders< (Rdb & Oracle) and recent ones show that this is still true. <soapbox mode off>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:20:07 +0200r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B214187.D79AD748@infopuls.com>   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > - > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:  > E > > This is in deed very evil and that shouldn't of course not in anyeE > > programming language. Sometimes there is weaker form of this: younF > > can write it but it will behave differently on different platformsE > > but at least equal (i.e. defined, deterministic) on one platform.  > 2 > If you think that, then you do not understand C.  = You have a different concept in mind. I wanted to add another < type of problem: it's not undefined but it is implementation< specific though some programmers might not be aware of that.  G > The compiler can do *ANYTHING* with an undefined construct. IncludingrJ > radom inconsistant return, faulting, feeding you an unterminated string,# > deleting all files it can access.   + Your respect of C seems to be very high ;-)   D > The fact that most compilers emit fairly inoculous code is becauseG > they had a nice day, it is easier, and luck. If there are two or moregE > bits of undefined code, than even that is off if they can interact.  > @ > The C standard does not define a language, it incants a curse.   :-)O  ; Because your English is that much better than what I try toT5 write your explanation of the plague is very precise.n  > A professor of CS told us during a lecture that there wasn't a? complete definition of C available for a long time, let alone a ? "standard". Once he wanted to construct a perfect parser and he.; couldn't find a complete syntax description. He came to theu? conclusion that C wasn't properly defined and designed from ther4 beginning but instead was a set of rules which grew.  ? I'm personally sure that a substantial part of the so called SW5@ crisis is because of too much use of not properly defined PLs by< people that even don't detect that the language they use has severe drawbacks.a  : But one of my favourite topics: there a different types of: people and we probably won't get rid of that curse ... :-(  & Did I mention that nobody should UNIX?   > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.eB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:42:39 +0200T) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B2146CF.490706F3@infopuls.com>   Chris Casey wrote: > E > Christof Brass wrote in message <3B201325.339FFCB1@infopuls.com>...   J [SNIPR  2 > Thank you for this somewhat more reasoned reply. > D > Mumps indeed can be written very badly and there is nothing in theL > language to prevent this. Its very innate flexibility will allow people to: > misuse it. This is also true of many powerful languages.D > Mumps came originally from the medical arena where money pressuresB > tended to overrule other considerations. This led to programmersG > (and medical staff) writing code that fitted in the very small memory2> > confines of a PDP where Mumps was everything - the language,  > database and operating system.@ > With these constrictions style got left behind for efficiency.N > Many of those systems simply got ported to the Vax environment (and onwards)3 > with very little effort put into tidying them up.   8 This makes completely sense. The tide integration of the= functions you mentioned explains the short development times.:< But I suspect that other tools are more appropriate today as- some of the restrictions don't apply anymore.t  F > Latter versions of ANSI and ISO standard mumps (BTW it was the thirdP > language to gain ANSI approval) added features that allowed more style such as! > functions and procedures calls.iG > Current incarnations include Cache from Intersystems which allows theMU > programmer to use their own preference of styles and coding interfaces. Its unifieduW > data structures allow simultaneous access using object, SQL or traditional scripting.d  8 I studied the Cach Web site and was rather impressed. I> couldn't find a clear indication and even sent an email asking6 that what PL has to be used to use the powerful stored: procedures and object DB interface but the example I found looked like C++.  K > To someone who has used this system for many years the best part of Mumps L > is that the data and the language are the same thing. We do not need toolsN > or processes to access or retrieve the data, it is simply there to be used. I > Purists hate this but it makes for very powerful and efficient systems.o  ; There is nothing to hate with that concept as long as it ise consistent. ? If you look at the current object DBs they try to offer similar0
 features. @ The idea is to make the boundary between persistent and volatile9 data almost invisible, but of course completely under theF control of the programmer.  L > The key thing to this forum is that this language and database is a sucess > story for VMS.K > The only Digital benchmarks performed showed it totally outperforming thep > two top contenders> > (Rdb & Oracle) and recent ones show that this is still true. > <soapbox mode off>  9 This is very interesting because Rdb is said to outperfomt Oracle.i@ Do you know about the DSM implementation compared to others like the one on AIX?.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:53:48 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B21496C.8A67F4B9@infopuls.com>   Brian Tillman wrote: > B > >What I would like to see is a tool which automatically converts> > >the command line interface of foreign programs to a CLD/VMS > >style interface.l > C > It's a simple thing to produce.  Use the following as a template:e >  > DEFINE VERB foreign,3 >     IMAGE foreigndir:foreign, CLIFLAGS( FOREIGN )- > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comiC > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventr> > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company  > I don't understand this. Will this provide all the options and= parameter conditions automatically that I could run the image  like any other VMS image?l. BTW, on my VMS 6.2 there is no DEFINE VERB :-(   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:58:50 +0200a) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B214A9A.11332C34@infopuls.com>   Brian Tillman wrote: > , > >Our environment is mainly Fortran (numberL > >crunching, and I'm old, or so I'm told).  We employ younger staff for the* > >whizz-bang GUI stuff written in C et al > K > I've never seen anyting written in C (or Pascal, or PL/I, or..., with themE > exception of, maybe, Ada) that couldn't also be written in Fortran.  > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comeC > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comn? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-> > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company  - I learned that FORTRAN does't offer recursivea functions/procedures?h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:05:13 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>E Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B214C19.F285E0CC@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote:   [SNIP]  > > > A small example: memory management in C/C++ is done by the; > > programmer and very often leads to memory problems like A > > accessing invalid memory regions or memory leaks (Slowaris isn; > > well known for having substantial memory leaks in its Ce? > > libraries). But most programmers like to write these littleb > A > Watch out, you'll get Andrew to contribute to this thread... :)D  ? :-) This was a quote from the Apache distribution (in fact it'su0 in the httpd.conf that comes with every Apache).  B > > memory management statements like alloc, new, free etc.. There; > > are a few programmers who think that what could be doneIB > > automatically and in high quality shouldn't be a burden of the > > programmer.n > G > Yes, or another way of looking at it would be:  It's always done by amH > programmer, but sometimes by the programmer who's writing the compiler% > rather than the one who's using it.i  6 :-) Or the one who writes the runtime system that your language/compiler relies on.  N > That's a somewhat important distinction, I think, since people don't tend toL > want to trust the computer to do things for them.  What they don't realizeL > sometimes is that the computer has been instructed by the person who wroteL > the compiler to do these things -- you certainly have to trust that person2 > to an extent to even consider using the program.  ? If this were the reason the people have to be much more carefule@ and have to analyse the generated code. I don't believe that the: average C/C++ programmer does this because this would ruin
 productivity.   D > > There a few managers of companies that prefer to wait until a SW> > > product is really usable instead of getting it as early asC > > possible and then having trouble with the bugs. These companieso% > > are the target for VMS marketing.4 > H > Did they miss the target, or are there that few of these companies? :)  > This is a hard question. From what I learned in this NG DEC at< least tried to drive away some of that type of customers :-(  
 > Regards, >  > Chrisw > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developere > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e > '    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:06:54 -0700t! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comt Subject: Re: The future of VMSD Message-ID: <OF2B6ECF38.6F0C6E97-ON88256A65.007941DA@foundation.com>  H It's possible in any language, just not always worth it. I remember onceG doing recursion in a language that didn't handle local arguments (and ItI wish I could remember which one, now. It was easily twelve years ago.). IhG had to save and restore the values for each layer of recursion manuallyr+ across calls in my own stacks. Never again.t   Shanei          = Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 06/08/2001 02:58:50 PMd  5 Please respond to Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:    Subject:  Re: The future of VMS      Brian Tillman wrote: >d, > >Our environment is mainly Fortran (numberH > >crunching, and I'm old, or so I'm told).  We employ younger staff for thet* > >whizz-bang GUI stuff written in C et al > K > I've never seen anyting written in C (or Pascal, or PL/I, or..., with themE > exception of, maybe, Ada) that couldn't also be written in Fortran.t > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com0? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company  - I learned that FORTRAN does't offer recursive  functions/procedures?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:13:28 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>K Subject: RE: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F29@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]  A > If this were the reason the people have to be much more careful-B > and have to analyse the generated code. I don't believe that the< > average C/C++ programmer does this because this would ruin > productivity.   F People have said this before, but I'll say it now anyway.  Most modernL programmers couldn't even read a stack dump.  I even wonder whether most can understand hexadecimal numbers.    Regards,   Chrisu  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developera Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");E 'y  w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 23:24:14 +0100. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMSC Message-ID: <AicU6.20572$YB3.3364319@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>t  C Christof Brass wrote in message <3B2146CF.490706F3@infopuls.com>...t >[SNIP9 >This makes completely sense. The tide integration of thep> >functions you mentioned explains the short development times.= >But I suspect that other tools are more appropriate today as . >some of the restrictions don't apply anymore.    . The original terseness was used to save space.C Many people write much more readable code nowadays and I have stillf> to see anything as powerful with such short development times.  9 >I studied the Cach Web site and was rather impressed. Iu? >couldn't find a clear indication and even sent an email asking07 >that what PL has to be used to use the powerful storedi; >procedures and object DB interface but the example I founda >looked like C++.M     The options are ....  E CacheObjectScript - derived from the original Mumps and usable on any  supported platform.m C.= Any COM enabled language - VB, Delphi, C+ etc on Billy boxes.s Corba. Java.r ODBC, JDBC.wH any several others - I can't be bothered to go to the site to refresh my memory of the full list.  < >There is nothing to hate with that concept as long as it is >consistent.@ >If you look at the current object DBs they try to offer similar
 >features.A >The idea is to make the boundary between persistent and volatilea: >data almost invisible, but of course completely under the >control of the programmer.t  H This is exactly what we have had in Mumps for 20 years before the object paradym gained popularity.  A >Do you know about the DSM implementation compared to others liket >the one on AIX?  H DSM (Digital Standard Mumps) was the main implementation on VMS for some time and is still very popular. L The other competitors were ISM (Intersystems Standard Mumps) which came fromK the Unix platforms and got ported to VMS and GT.M (a fully compiled versiony now owned by Sanchez).  E DSM was the one used by Digital when they benchmarked against Rdb ando Oracle.iH They were trying to promote Rdb at the time so when DSM came in 10 times faster9 at 1/20th of the cost they forgot to promote the figures.e@ They sold DSM to Intersystems as part of the big sell off phase.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 01:09:08 GMTh- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)a Subject: Re: The future of VMS0 Message-ID: <3b21764f.24563400@news.process.com>  N On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:53:48 +0200, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:   >Brian Tillman wrote:r >>  C >> >What I would like to see is a tool which automatically convertsm? >> >the command line interface of foreign programs to a CLD/VMSf >> >style interface. >> tD >> It's a simple thing to produce.  Use the following as a template: >> u >> DEFINE VERB foreign4 >>     IMAGE foreigndir:foreign, CLIFLAGS( FOREIGN ) >e? >I don't understand this. Will this provide all the options andi> >parameter conditions automatically that I could run the image >like any other VMS image?  = No, it just lets you define a real command to invoke an image ? you normally have to define a foreign symbol for.  There's mores> to implementing DCL-style /QUALIFIERS than that.  I've done it= for several utilities, most notably ZIP and UNZIP.  It can berB ridiculously easy to do, and it can be extremely tricky, depending+ on what the underlying application expects.o  ? The trick I used was to parse the DCL command line and create apA new argv[] array that consists of all the equivalent UNIX commandsB options.  This new argv[] array gets returned to the main routine.6 The code underneath doesn't have to change, other than  adding a call to the DCL parser.  / >BTW, on my VMS 6.2 there is no DEFINE VERB :-(-  > DEFINE VERB is recognized by the command SET COMMAND xxxx.CLD.? What Brian gave above is a simple .CLD file that will eliminate  the need for a foreign symbol.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/e9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:44:28 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0806012344290001@user-2ive75t.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3B214A9A.11332C34@infopuls.com>, Christof Brasso <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:t   > Brian Tillman wrote: > > . > > >Our environment is mainly Fortran (numberN > > >crunching, and I'm old, or so I'm told).  We employ younger staff for the, > > >whizz-bang GUI stuff written in C et al > > M > > I've never seen anyting written in C (or Pascal, or PL/I, or..., with theeG > > exception of, maybe, Ada) that couldn't also be written in Fortran., > > --E > > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comiE > > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comnA > > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventm@ > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"< > >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company > / > I learned that FORTRAN does't offer recursivea > functions/procedures?e  M DEC fortran 77 has offered recursion for a while.  But standard F77 does not.l  N DEC Fortran also gained pointers, structures/records, and other modern things.  E I'm sure PL/I has a number of things that would be difficult in F77.  8 Decimal numerics is the only one I can think of offhand.  I F77 doesn't have anything like Ada's generics, nor Ada's concurrency, nore" Ada's OO and inheritance features.  J But SNOBOL was written in Fortran 66, so I guess you can do just about any; sort of string processing in Fortran if you really want to.w   -- b Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:50:11 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: The future of VMSL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0806012350110001@user-2ive75t.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleA <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F29@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,t, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  H > People have said this before, but I'll say it now anyway.  Most modernN > programmers couldn't even read a stack dump.  I even wonder whether most can! > understand hexadecimal numbers.g  H Dunno.  I notice the kids all have palmpilots these days.  Do palmpilots do hexadecimal conversions?1   Oh.  You meant by hand?  Ha!  G I was recently trying to explain to a graduate student what an "editor"p; is.  You want I should confuse him with "stack" and "dump"?e   -- g Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:32:56 -0000a- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)c Subject: Re: Threads.e/ Message-ID: <ti2djo5slif6b9@news.supernews.com>.  5 martin.ejdestig@planit.se (Martin Ejdestig) wrote in o2 <19468064.0106052337.5d3b3ce0@posting.google.com>:    K Some extra info would help.  Are you using the DECthreads (cma) library or s( pthreads?  Version?  Version of OpenVMS?  J My comments below refer to the pthreads - the only interface I'm familiar : with (on Linux, not OpenVMS, but it *should* be the same).  B >I'm a bit confused when it comes to threads and asts. I'm running$ >version V7.1-2 on an Alpha machine. >xE >1. When does asts interrupt the thread that requested it (per-threade< >AST) and when are they delivered to the process as a whole? >aG >2. If I use sys$setast() to disable asts is this on a per-thread basistD >or for the process as a whole? If to the process, mustn't I preventG >other threads from enable asts with sys$setast() (otherwise I can't benC >sure that asts are disabled in the thread that disabled asts...your >know what I mean...).  F AST's pre-date threads.  If you need your threads to wait for certain H conditions, refer the documentation for pthread condition variables.  A D (pthread) Mutex is the appropriate mechaism for protecting critical A sections of code and serializing access to data structures.  Use  E pthread_setcancelstate() and pthread_setcanceltype() to control when b= threads can be destroyed, and what actions they take on exit.s  F >3. I've made a library that uses some global variables to store errorG >information. This must be stored for each thread. To accomplish this IsC >must use tis_key_create()....right (Im not 100% sure on how to use E >it...care to write an example :)? Is there some way I can initializeoF >this atomatically when linked with my library (ie without calling anyG >MyLib_Initialize() routine) (and deinitlaize atomatically when my prog  >exits). >hE >4. Ive made a "wait for one of these events to occur" function whichmE >uses poll() in the unix version and asts, sys$hiber() and sys$wake()rB >(in the asts) in the vms version. I've understood that sys$wake()F >wakes all threads that have called sys$hiber(). To solve this problemF >Ive gotta check somehow if the sys$wake() was for me (the thread) andF >if it wasn't do sys$hiber() again. Is there a better way (ie a way toG >just sys$wake() the thread that that should be awaken)?...note that itc+ >should work in a single threaded proc. to.n  L A pthread condition variable seems appropriate here, although an Event Flag L might work equally well, and would typically be the mechanism of choice for 2 this type of problem in non-threaded environments.  A >5. When a thread has called the "wait for one of these events to C >occur" function above, it must be able to be notified from anotheraC >thread that it should exit. Since I use poll() on unix I acomplisheE >this by using pipe() and write()...dunno if this is any good though.aD >What is the best approach on vms (see above for how Ive implemented7 >the "wait for one of these events to occur" function)?   G You'd likely be able to implement this with fewer "moving parts" using  L Event Flags or pthread condition variables, obviating the need for the pipe 	 entirely.v   Hope this helps.   ws   -- 91 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>p   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **t   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 17:12:38 -0500T- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <ax3DDBCWNfxn@eisner.encompasserve.org>j  ` In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >  > |> v5 > |>   One tool I haven't seen: an ODS-5 capable tar.' > D > Probably a nice utility.  But I would put it low ont he list as itC > would really do nothing towards moving any of the large number ofC > available free apps to VMS.t  E I would put it higher.  One of the first things that happens when yourD try to port an existing tools is that the source files get munged toF ODS-2 compatable format, and none of the #includes work.  On the otherA hand I, too, found an existing VMS tar utility to be easy to fix.r  D On the other hand an imake that generated MMS compatable build files@ would be quite usefull.  I wouldn't want one that generates makeH compatable file because I think make is one of the worst tools I've ever seen on any platform.-  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation4= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group]E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:29:16 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <MsbU6.1263$fi2.32194@news.cpqcorp.net>t  ` In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:4 :In article <0XQT6.1188$fi2.30085@news.cpqcorp.net>,6 : hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:J :|>   Various of these are readily available, and extensive work is going H :|>   into these areas here in OpenVMS.  I know about bash and make, and8 :|>   I'd expect to find a port of csh around somewhere. :e@ :I'm confused.  If Unix Shells and a Unix make have already beenA :ported to VMS why is it the first thing that gets mentioned when * :this subject comes up??  Where are they??  C   Um, because folks don't read the OpenVMS FAQ, thus don't find thee   pointers?i  F   The DII COE work is presently underway, and the target of this work E   provides many of the common tools -- POSIX, plus other stuff.  You aF   can find pointers to details of DII COE in (you guessed it) the FAQ.  H :|>   Shells, by the way, can be a lot of work to port, as folks expect D :|>   the tools that are behind the shells will be available, too... :rA :That's true, but being as the dreaded "configure" in most of theaA :Opensource pacakages is nothing but a shell script it is centralt? :to discovering what it takes to build a package.  That makes a D :functional shell scrpit pretty much something you can't do without.  @   The configure scripts found in most open-source packages are, C   well, exceedingly ugly.  (I've yet to find one that really works s   as intended.)   >   Alternatives to this would be the DII COE segment mechanism,   and stuff like RPM.    :e :|> C :|> :One of the requirements for any of these projects will be good H :|> :documentation of the porting process with an eye towards developingB :|> :a "Unix to VMS Porting Document" or at least a set of porting :|> :guidelines. :|> I :|>   There is a UNIX OpenVMS Compatibility book available.  AFAIK, it isrI :|>   either marketing collateral -- perversely, I acquired my copy at a uG :|>   customer event -- or is part of the Tru64 UNIX documentation set.T :fD :Written by who??  The same guy who wrote the Unix Haters Handbook??  	   Compaq.   I :The ongoing discussions here have pretty much centered on the difficultyoG :of porting any of the currently available free applications to the VMSiF :environment.  The primary purpose of my proposed project isn't merelyG :the porting of a few trivial utilities.  The primary purpose is to payrG :close attention while porting these simple utilities in order to learntF :what it takes so that this can be applied to more ambitious projects.G :The general concensus, up til now, has been that this information does G :not exist at this point in time.  If that's wrong, I am sure there are 0 :a lot of people here who would like to know it.  1   Please look up the DII COE pointers in the FAQ.u  4 :|>   One tool I haven't seen: an ODS-5 capable tar. :eC :Probably a nice utility.  But I would put it low ont he list as it B :would really do nothing towards moving any of the large number of :available free apps to VMS.   :  :|> 9 :|>   Another tool that could use an updated port: imake.m :sA :Now that's probably a good one for high on the list.  Of course,0& :that assumes you have a working make.    I   There are multiple working versions of make around.  Check the Freeware"L   disks (V4 and V5) for mmk, gmake/gnumake.  The DECset package offers MMS, B   another version of a make tool.  A version of imake also exists.   :|> ( :|>   A tool I haven't seen ported: RPM. ::E :Considering that no one is packaging VMS software in the RPM format,:D :what would this buy??  There are already recognized formats for VMSC :installable packages.  What advantage would RPM bring over these??h  D   The reason is to get away from the "configure" mess.  The sorts ofC   shell scripts included in most kits are ugly, platform-specific, eC   and seldom do what was intended.  (The same could be said of DCL,    but I digress.)o    O :|>   Others: any of various tools that were not carried forward from Freeware yN :|>   V4.0 to Freeware V5.0 -- these tools did not see updates, and I did not O :|>   have room to carry these through given the (large) volume of new FreewareeJ :|>   submissions and updates to existing submissions that I had received. :|>  :\H :Because at this point it seems that none of the changes for VMS supportK :ever get rolled back into the base code, every update results in a totallyyI :new porting project.  I would like to see that change too, but somehow IAF :don't see it happening anytime soon.  But if clean ports, with an eyeI :toward maintaining that portability are done, it could make it easier to = :fold these changes into future releases of the same package.m  A   Ayup.  The difficulty involved certainly depends on the packagetC   maintainer(s), but that is simply part of the joy of open source.o  F   That said, my statement was addressing the Freeware submissions and E   the (lack of carry-over of) content of the Freeware disks, and not sD   whether or not any OpenVMS port has been integrated back into the E   source pool or whether or not a new(er) OpenVMS port was available.e  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:50:32 +0200C) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS), Message-ID: <3B2148A8.60398E49@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:   [SNIP]  I > Because at this point it seems that none of the changes for VMS supportiL > ever get rolled back into the base code, every update results in a totallyJ > new porting project.  I would like to see that change too, but somehow IG > don't see it happening anytime soon.  But if clean ports, with an eye J > toward maintaining that portability are done, it could make it easier to> > fold these changes into future releases of the same package.  ? It should be considered to develop a smart patch app that couldl= be automatically applied to incorporate the changes/additionsS; needed to convert the foreign SW to VMS SW. There are patchr< utilities around that are used by other porters on different? platforms but I suspect they won't be helpful if the difference > between the two platform is too big. It may be helpful to do a8 three file merge: old source, new source and VMS source.   [SNIP]   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 19:50:41 -0400:/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)tB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)* Message-ID: <9froch$6fo$1@lisa.gemair.com>  3 In article <MsbU6.1263$fi2.32194@news.cpqcorp.net>,M3 Hoff Hoffman <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote:ga >In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i5 >:In article <0XQT6.1188$fi2.30085@news.cpqcorp.net>, 7 >: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:cK >:|>   Various of these are readily available, and extensive work is going ?I >:|>   into these areas here in OpenVMS.  I know about bash and make, andm9 >:|>   I'd expect to find a port of csh around somewhere.o >:A >:I'm confused.  If Unix Shells and a Unix make have already beenaB >:ported to VMS why is it the first thing that gets mentioned when+ >:this subject comes up??  Where are they??p >iD >  Um, because folks don't read the OpenVMS FAQ, thus don't find the >  pointers? >C  G Or, it could be because, at least with the bash port, some things don'tiB quite work as you'd expect and that it's incredibly slow, in other% words, it's not ready for prime time.t  G >  The DII COE work is presently underway, and the target of this work BF >  provides many of the common tools -- POSIX, plus other stuff.  You G >  can find pointers to details of DII COE in (you guessed it) the FAQ.l >CI >:|>   Shells, by the way, can be a lot of work to port, as folks expect -E >:|>   the tools that are behind the shells will be available, too...t >:B >:That's true, but being as the dreaded "configure" in most of theB >:Opensource pacakages is nothing but a shell script it is central@ >:to discovering what it takes to build a package.  That makes aE >:functional shell scrpit pretty much something you can't do without.s >nA >  The configure scripts found in most open-source packages are, sD >  well, exceedingly ugly.  (I've yet to find one that really works  >  as intended.) >a  @ Gee.  I don't know the ones you use, but most of the one's I've F used work quite as intended.  In several cases I brought up a package F that was not known to run on a given Unix because the configure script% sniffed the environment successfully.   A OTOH, I've seen some exceedingly ugly DCL scripts that attempt torB hard code every combination of GCC/DECC(++)/VAXC, (Open)VMS/5/6/7,B Alpha/VAX combination imaginable and really only work reliably for? about 1/10th of the possible combinations (the more modern onesn	 usually).n  ? >  Alternatives to this would be the DII COE segment mechanism,  >  and stuff like RPM. >s >: >:|>  D >:|> :One of the requirements for any of these projects will be goodI >:|> :documentation of the porting process with an eye towards developingBC >:|> :a "Unix to VMS Porting Document" or at least a set of portingt >:|> :guidelines.t >:|> eJ >:|>   There is a UNIX OpenVMS Compatibility book available.  AFAIK, it isJ >:|>   either marketing collateral -- perversely, I acquired my copy at a H >:|>   customer event -- or is part of the Tru64 UNIX documentation set. >:E >:Written by who??  The same guy who wrote the Unix Haters Handbook??I >e
 >  Compaq. >uJ >:The ongoing discussions here have pretty much centered on the difficultyH >:of porting any of the currently available free applications to the VMSG >:environment.  The primary purpose of my proposed project isn't merelymH >:the porting of a few trivial utilities.  The primary purpose is to payH >:close attention while porting these simple utilities in order to learnG >:what it takes so that this can be applied to more ambitious projects.>H >:The general concensus, up til now, has been that this information doesH >:not exist at this point in time.  If that's wrong, I am sure there are1 >:a lot of people here who would like to know it.t >n2 >  Please look up the DII COE pointers in the FAQ. >e5 >:|>   One tool I haven't seen: an ODS-5 capable tar.s >:D >:Probably a nice utility.  But I would put it low ont he list as itC >:would really do nothing towards moving any of the large number of  >:available free apps to VMS.w >  >: >:|>  : >:|>   Another tool that could use an updated port: imake. >:B >:Now that's probably a good one for high on the list.  Of course,' >:that assumes you have a working make.r >S >cJ >  There are multiple working versions of make around.  Check the FreewareM >  disks (V4 and V5) for mmk, gmake/gnumake.  The DECset package offers MMS, 3C >  another version of a make tool.  A version of imake also exists.e >u >:|> t) >:|>   A tool I haven't seen ported: RPM.  >:F >:Considering that no one is packaging VMS software in the RPM format,E >:what would this buy??  There are already recognized formats for VMSsD >:installable packages.  What advantage would RPM bring over these?? >aE >  The reason is to get away from the "configure" mess.  The sorts ofeD >  shell scripts included in most kits are ugly, platform-specific, D >  and seldom do what was intended.  (The same could be said of DCL, >  but I digress.) >a  F Oh, well, I see that you don't defend similar DCL here.  I still don'tG take back what I said above.  Configure generally works as intended fors me.(   >hP >:|>   Others: any of various tools that were not carried forward from Freeware O >:|>   V4.0 to Freeware V5.0 -- these tools did not see updates, and I did not dP >:|>   have room to carry these through given the (large) volume of new FreewareK >:|>   submissions and updates to existing submissions that I had received.i >:|>   >:I >:Because at this point it seems that none of the changes for VMS supportcL >:ever get rolled back into the base code, every update results in a totallyJ >:new porting project.  I would like to see that change too, but somehow IG >:don't see it happening anytime soon.  But if clean ports, with an eyeoJ >:toward maintaining that portability are done, it could make it easier to> >:fold these changes into future releases of the same package. >eB >  Ayup.  The difficulty involved certainly depends on the packageD >  maintainer(s), but that is simply part of the joy of open source. >)G >  That said, my statement was addressing the Freeware submissions and aF >  the (lack of carry-over of) content of the Freeware disks, and not E >  whether or not any OpenVMS port has been integrated back into the )F >  source pool or whether or not a new(er) OpenVMS port was available. >aO > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- O >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    eO > --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------kM >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com  >d   -Jordan Henerson jordan@greenapple.como   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 20:48:27 -0500h9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)eB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <yqy$tgYM7w91@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <0XQT6.1188$fi2.30085@news.cpqcorp.net>,i7 >  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:   5 > |>   One tool I haven't seen: an ODS-5 capable tar.  > D > Probably a nice utility.  But I would put it low ont he list as itC > would really do nothing towards moving any of the large number ofn > available free apps to VMS.f  B I can't speak to numbers, but the one application I had to port toC VMS (first time in years) required an ODS-5 capable tar.  So for mefB it was critical for 100% of the ports in 30 years of computing :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 20:52:11 -0500-9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)sB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <jXiA7IPnueCk@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  h In article <MsbU6.1263$fi2.32194@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:b > In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 > :In article <0XQT6.1188$fi2.30085@news.cpqcorp.net>,8 > : hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  ; > :|>   Another tool that could use an updated port: imake.t > :eC > :Now that's probably a good one for high on the list.  Of course,i( > :that assumes you have a working make. >  > K >   There are multiple working versions of make around.  Check the FreewaredN >   disks (V4 and V5) for mmk, gmake/gnumake.  The DECset package offers MMS, D >   another version of a make tool.  A version of imake also exists.  D My recent experience with MMS indicated _it_ was not compatible withG ODS-5 filespecs.  I would love to be told how I am mistaken on this :-)m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:01:02 -0700-! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 1 Subject: TP Web Connector working without gatewayfD Message-ID: <OF06FD6FE4.07F5EBFF-ON88256A65.007E7017@foundation.com>   Ok, now I'm confused.s  I We have an in-house package on NT (don't laugh) that's calling ACMS tasks1H on a VMS system, using the TP Web Connector software from Compaq. It wasG developed running against a development VMS box with the ACMSDA$GATEWAY K installed and running. Due to some administrative bollock-dropping, it went.J live before the production VMS box had the gateway installed. Here's where* we enter the Twilight Zone - it's working.  G My best guess is that when it can't find the gateway process on the VMSeJ box, it's falling back on the older ACMS Desktop Interface protocol, but IK can't find that behaviour documented anywhere. Can anyone shed any light ona this?f  	 VMS 7.2-1o	 ACMS V4.2e Web Connector V1.2aU Multinet 4.3 rev A-X NT Server 4 sp6a (hawk, spit)   
 TIA, Shane   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:05:00 -0400r  From: Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff) Subject: UPDATE - WeblogicO Message-ID: <D776BB27852C2F5F.FFE2CB1649914300.823D3D030C20421F@lp.airnews.net>   H    I appreciate the input from the Compaq folks that monitor here (Kerry especially)....       Latest news is no news.....  B    It is the inability of the Sales Support folks that back up theH marketing/sales suits we have contacted to bring forward ANYONE to speak1 on behalf of WLS/BEA/OpenVMS that stinks.........   I    I told BEA that had they mentioned on DAY ONE that they are evaluatingcE coverage on OpenVMS and did not want to make committments without duenJ consultation with the customer.... then we would have reluctantly acceptedH that and made our case for the platform... or purchased the TRU-64 or NT	 solution.   I    We were contacted by one fellow at BEA who is EX-DEC/Compaq (6-8 yearstC I believe) and he could not get any pre-sales support from the homeb' office... or reach the product manager.t  I    In their case, however, and this is the point to be made here.... TheyjH blew a major point of credibility with us.... The messaage they sent wasJ nothing short of 'we are prepared to be less than honest about support for! a product if your check clears'     H    Nothing new from a vendor you say.... If we wanted that we would call Computer Associates.                ; In article <3B1FA350.7D518728@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   > Richard Maher wrote: > >  > > > + > > > VMS management have their hands tied.o > >  > > Pig's arse!!!e > F > Elucidate: how can Rich and Mark spend more money than they get from
 > Q/Corp.? >t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:50:07 +0200, From: "Harald Thienel" <harald@h-thienel.de>2 Subject: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7/ Message-ID: <9fr6la$6jh$03$1@news.t-online.com>e  L Since one week we are running Oracle 8.1.7 on VMS-Alpha-Cluster (3 machines). in parallel server mode. VMS Version is 7.2.1.L there is one instance of the database on every machine. The database is used/ by 200-300 users distributed on the 3 machines.s  K First problem is that Oracle 8 seems to be several times slower than Oracleo 7 (maybe 4 times).  E But the big problem is that after some hours (1 to 3), Oracle becomes.I getting slower and slower and then stops processing completely. All users F are waiting forever. This seems to be a problem in the lock managementE (LMD-process). Sometimes this state can be cured by shutting down one K instance of the database (then the other two resume working), sometimes all C three instances must be shut down and restarted. In a manufacturingr? environment like ours, these shutdowns are not very wellcome...r  J We are in contact with Oracle-Support and tweeking around with parameters,# but this didn't really help so far.   7 The situation is escalating - any help is very welcome!v Thanks Harald   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:06:08 -0400o- From: "Mitchell, David R." <mitchell@WPI.EDU>d6 Subject: RE: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7J Message-ID: <FE1835D68492D311BF7900508B5BEB0D04499653@petra.admin.wpi.edu>  I We're not running parallel server, but we just upgraded to 8.1.7 on our =  AlphayD two weeks ago.  Immediately afterwards we started getting a bunch ofE processes in "MUTEX" state.  Over time we'd eventually start having =r problemsA with new connections and would have to shutdown and restart the =a	 database.tH Our DBA was working with Oracle support and eventually found a DCD (Dead@ Connection Detection) parameter that was set to 10 minutes and =
 eventuallyI caused resouce quota problems.  Setting the value of sqlnet_expire_time =  to 0J minutes (disabling it) in sqlnet.ora has fixed this problem for us.  Are = youoB seeing a large number of processes in a MUTEX state with a "show = system"?   David    David Mitchell' Administrative Computer Systems Managern# Computing and Communications Center, Worcester Polytechnic Institute  e-mail:mitchell@wpi.edu, phone:(508)831-6044i     > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Harald Thienel [mailto:harald@h-thienel.de]d% > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 2:50 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,4 > Subject: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 >=20 >=202 > Since one week we are running Oracle 8.1.7 on=20  > VMS-Alpha-Cluster (3 machines)0 > in parallel server mode. VMS Version is 7.2.1.@ > there is one instance of the database on every machine. The=20 > database is used1 > by 200-300 users distributed on the 3 machines.e >=20= > First problem is that Oracle 8 seems to be several times=20- > slower than Oracle > 7 (maybe 4 times). >=20G > But the big problem is that after some hours (1 to 3), Oracle becomesp8 > getting slower and slower and then stops processing=20 > completely. All usersMH > are waiting forever. This seems to be a problem in the lock managementG > (LMD-process). Sometimes this state can be cured by shutting down one@B > instance of the database (then the other two resume working),=20 > sometimes alleE > three instances must be shut down and restarted. In a manufacturing A > environment like ours, these shutdowns are not very wellcome...  >=20> > We are in contact with Oracle-Support and tweeking around=20 > with parameters,% > but this didn't really help so far.i >=209 > The situation is escalating - any help is very welcome!g > Thanks > Harald >=20 >=20 >=20   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 13:46:20 -0700m( From: chandra_2000_us@yahoo.com (chan01)6 Subject: Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7= Message-ID: <480cb9d4.0106081246.5320fecb@posting.google.com>c   Hi,pJ  I think it is not the problem with OPS Oracle, it is depending up on the C database architecture. slow because of the LMD. may be you have to  8 change your archi. what kind of system you were running.   Thanksc "Harald Thienel" <harald@h-thienel.de> wrote in message news:<9fr6la$6jh$03$1@news.t-online.com>... N > Since one week we are running Oracle 8.1.7 on VMS-Alpha-Cluster (3 machines)0 > in parallel server mode. VMS Version is 7.2.1.N > there is one instance of the database on every machine. The database is used1 > by 200-300 users distributed on the 3 machines.  > M > First problem is that Oracle 8 seems to be several times slower than Oracle- > 7 (maybe 4 times). > G > But the big problem is that after some hours (1 to 3), Oracle becomesRK > getting slower and slower and then stops processing completely. All users$H > are waiting forever. This seems to be a problem in the lock managementG > (LMD-process). Sometimes this state can be cured by shutting down one9M > instance of the database (then the other two resume working), sometimes alltE > three instances must be shut down and restarted. In a manufacturingnA > environment like ours, these shutdowns are not very wellcome...h > L > We are in contact with Oracle-Support and tweeking around with parameters,% > but this didn't really help so far.  > 9 > The situation is escalating - any help is very welcome!w > Thanks > Harald   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:23:02 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bre6 Subject: RE: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7L Message-ID: <OFFD472A96.15517BF5-ON03256A65.006A6C43@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  / Someone wrote here about development problems !h  2 Oracle classic under OpenVMS is becoming one ! ! !     Rega   FC        > "Mitchell, David R." <mitchell@WPI.EDU> em 08/06/2001 16:06:08  9 Favor responder a "Mitchell, David R." <mitchell@WPI.EDU>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       6 Assunto: RE: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7    G We're not running parallel server, but we just upgraded to 8.1.7 on oure Alpha D two weeks ago.  Immediately afterwards we started getting a bunch ofC processes in "MUTEX" state.  Over time we'd eventually start havingt problemsI with new connections and would have to shutdown and restart the database.iH Our DBA was working with Oracle support and eventually found a DCD (DeadI Connection Detection) parameter that was set to 10 minutes and eventuallyoJ caused resouce quota problems.  Setting the value of sqlnet_expire_time to 0-H minutes (disabling it) in sqlnet.ora has fixed this problem for us.  Are yourI seeing a large number of processes in a MUTEX state with a "show system"?b   Davidf   David Mitchell' Administrative Computer Systems Managerc# Computing and Communications Centers Worcester Polytechnic Institute  e-mail:mitchell@wpi.edui phone:(508)831-6044o     > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Harald Thienel [mailto:harald@h-thienel.de]t% > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 2:50 PMD > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,4 > Subject: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 >e >b/ > Since one week we are running Oracle 8.1.7 on   > VMS-Alpha-Cluster (3 machines)0 > in parallel server mode. VMS Version is 7.2.1.= > there is one instance of the database on every machine. The> > database is used1 > by 200-300 users distributed on the 3 machines.: >u: > First problem is that Oracle 8 seems to be several times > slower than Oracle > 7 (maybe 4 times). > G > But the big problem is that after some hours (1 to 3), Oracle becomes 5 > getting slower and slower and then stops processings > completely. All users H > are waiting forever. This seems to be a problem in the lock managementG > (LMD-process). Sometimes this state can be cured by shutting down one?? > instance of the database (then the other two resume working),a > sometimes alloE > three instances must be shut down and restarted. In a manufacturingpA > environment like ours, these shutdowns are not very wellcome...  >n; > We are in contact with Oracle-Support and tweeking aroundm > with parameters,% > but this didn't really help so far.a >p9 > The situation is escalating - any help is very welcome!p > Thanks > Harald >o >a >    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 06:12:28 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>E Subject: Re: Use of SYSMAN to keep password file in sync on 8 systemst- Message-ID: <87u21qvcxf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  & Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:  + This original seems to have gone walkies...A  L > You should check out the external authentication that is built-into recent  D > versions of VMS.  That would solve your problem (after you upgrade > those VAXen from 5.5-2).   > Norman Woo wrote:o  F > > We have 8 NON-CLUSTERED systems (4 x Compaq Alphas running OpenVMS< > > 7.1-2 and 4 x Digital VAX running VMS 5.5-2) distributedF > > throughout the country.  Users can basically log onto any of theseB > > 8 systems to do their work.  Their accounts are captive in theB > > sense that they cannot get at the system command prompt.  OnceA > > they log onto the system, they are into the application.  The C > > application is the same on all 8 systems.  One of the issues wetA > > need to resolve is when the users change their passwords whenpD > > logging onto anyone of the 8 systems, we would like to have thisE > > password updated on the other 7 systems.  This way, when the usera@ > > logs onto another system, they just need to remember the newE > > password and not have to worry which systems still have their oldc > > passwords.  @ You seem to have decnet, so you can use proxies to eliminate theF logins.  Syncing the passwords can be done with sysman and some DCL to& wrap set password. Or an app to do it.  @ If you can tolerate a delay in the updates, you could do a batchE update overnight. With proxys, this may do the job as the password iso not used for the proxy login.r  ? Note that this is a uniform distributed partitioned database ino* effect, a known hard problem to get right.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:02:12 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i! Subject: Re: VMS / NT integrationu' Message-ID: <3B212134.38FF0A37@fsi.net>s   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:s > [snip]M > 2. The NT LPD can only handle one file per printjob.  OpenVMS LPR will sendm >    multiple files at a time.  C I had an "issue" with Multinet where the MULTINET_LPD_SYMBIONT(sp?)dH would send each file of an OpenVMS print job as a separate LPD job. WhenE MNET was still owned by Cisco, their tech. support said that this wastE consistent with the RFCs. The only RFC I ever found on LP{R,D} was ana8 informational one describing the results of an effort to, reverse-engineer the then-existing software.  @ Not sure, but I believe TCPware's LPD symbiont exhibits the sameF behavior. Not sure about the LPD symbiont in TCPIP services (fka UCX).   -- p David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:52:49 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f8 Subject: Re: VMS Installation and set up (from a newbie), Message-ID: <3B211EFF.D437ACE3@videotron.ca>   Dan Kalish wrote:OJ > However, I've had almost no experience with DEC products (although I didE > some work with a PDP-1 30 years ago) and would like to learn VMS ata > home.r   http://www.openvms.compaq.comS  F There is a FAQ that contains a lot of information. Also, you can go toN http://www.montagar.com and look for the VMS hobyist link where you can obtainL "free" licenses for VMS and many application software and where you can also buy the CD distribution.  M What you will need to thinker with though is a CD drive from which you can dosT the install on the older vaxes you might be buying iof they do not have one already.  N In my case, I crimped a scsi connector onto the internal SCSI ribbon so that IM could plug in a spare CDrom drive (and used the power from the diskette drivefG to power the cdrom). From there I was able to install VMS from CD, then), removed the cd rom drive and closed the box.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:13:38 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)8 Subject: Re: VMS Installation and set up (from a newbie)3 Message-ID: <6ebU6.1261$fi2.32178@news.cpqcorp.net>   e In article <3053eba9.0106080912.12554966@posting.google.com>, kaliushkin@att.net (Dan Kalish) writes:d> :I've had a lot of experience with IBM mainframes and IBM PS/2G :microcomputers, as a programmer, and concerning the latter, hardware,  - :installation of operating systems, LAN, etc.n  B   Forget this -- at least initially -- as it will likely serve to    confuse you.   :How do I go about doing it?...-  /   Acquire and Read the available documentation.:  - : Digital VAXstation 4000/60 Unix Workstation  : DEC 3100-M38 SYSTEMoF : DEC VAX STATION 3100 with Floppy.  (What are the differences between :these three Vaxen?).>  C   There is no such thing as "DEC 3100-M38", that would likely be a lD   VAXstation 3100 model 38 series.  The VAXstation 4000 model 60 is >   faster, and is far preferable to the VAXstation 3100 series.D   All of these systems are supported by OpenVMS -- and chances are, E   the VAXstation 4000 referenced is/was running OpenVMS and not UNIX.   3 :Once I get such a computer, where do I find VMS?  e  E   Check the OpenVMS FAQ, and specifically for details of the OpenVMS h   Hobbyist program.g  ( :In fact how do I set up a VAXstation?    F   Please start with the OpenVMS FAQ.  If you have the necessary cablesH   and no one has stripped the box, the cabling and the setup is obvious.I   Once the box is configured and powered up, the installation process is eE   covered in excruitiating detail in the OpenVMS installation manual.   I :How do I add disk drives, tape backup, floppy drives, and CD-ROM drives?u  E   These systems all typically have and use a SCSI bus, sometimes two.8  F   See the FAQ for restrictions specific to the VAXstation 3100 series    system disk.  I   See the FAQ for restrictions specific to CD-ROM 512-byte block support.I   :  How about ethernet cards?  D   Ethernet support is normally integrated into all of these systems.  , :  Does VMS support peer-to-peer networking?  5   Since its inception.  IP and DECnet, most commonly.t   :Any recommendations?Y  D   Read the OpenVMS FAQ.  Read the OpenVMS VAX installation manual.  E   (The OpenVMS FAQ has a pointer to the manuals.)  Check the various  F   hardware websites referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ.  Check the tutorialA   and training information that is referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ.a    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:21:13 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?$ Message-ID: <3b2117b4$1@news.si.com>  ( >The thrust of both these initiatives is; >that it is the introduction of airbags that has led to ther  >urgency of this recommendation.  I It was the invention of electricity that lead to the admonition of "don'tcJ stick your finger in the light socket".  All inventions that aid also have0 the ability for misuse.  I don't get your point. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comdA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventu< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:25:58 -0500s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B2118B6.A6816768@fsi.net>i  $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: > + > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:n > >> > JF Mezei wrote: > K > >> > > Very few people *need* an SUV.  How many kilometres of road in thec$ > >> > > USA require a 4wd vehicle ? > > O > >In the snow belt, even less than 0.1 km can be significant, if it happens tor > >be your driveway. > B > I grew up 5 miles from Lake Michigan, anybody else here know the  > meaning of "lake effect snow"? > G > I deeply appreciate front wheel drive, I think four wheel drive would- > be neat, but "need"?  D In last Dec.'s 9-inch mid-day snow, 4WD made getting around at least? possible, even though a 20-minute drive took over two(2) hours.    -- - David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems0 http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.U   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:28:19 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>h2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B211943.F3F36C90@fsi.net>o   Bob Koehler wrote: > S > In article <9fqs30$hk2$7@husk.cso.niu.edu>, system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:t > >hD > > I grew up 5 miles from Lake Michigan, anybody else here know the" > > meaning of "lake effect snow"? > G > My mothers family survived for decades in the lake effect region whenh1 > there was no 4WD anything outside the military.t  G Back in Jan. '67, my mom drove home from work (about seven(7) miles) inc6 circa. 24 inches of snow in a 1966 Ford Galaxie (RWD).   -- 5 David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:44:32 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B211D10.925B715F@fsi.net>h  $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: (on the topic of "baby" seats) > [snip]C > Ford Escort handles two of them in the backseat.  Once evil gov't B > regulation pushes them to put in standard connections it will be9 > easier to do so, but even now it isn't that big a deal.h > @ > OTOH this does point out another difference, the U.S. tends to? > have larger families than Europe.  (or at least the fertilityd > rate is greater).    Interesting stat.   F I think the comics and public speakers still use "2.8" as the AmericanE average number of children in a traditional family. Any idea what them# comparable European stat. might be?    -- i David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/1  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:01:29 -0700h! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comm2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?D Message-ID: <OF0310D684.6056FF8D-ON88256A65.00687633@foundation.com>  H The UK was 2.4 last time I had occasion to notice. That was a while back though.e   Shanep          E "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> on 06/08/2001 11:44:32 AMs  = Please respond to "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:s  3 Subject:  Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?o    $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: (on the topic of "baby" seats) > [snip]C > Ford Escort handles two of them in the backseat.  Once evil gov'tnB > regulation pushes them to put in standard connections it will be9 > easier to do so, but even now it isn't that big a deal.e >.@ > OTOH this does point out another difference, the U.S. tends to? > have larger families than Europe.  (or at least the fertility  > rate is greater).e   Interesting stat.n  F I think the comics and public speakers still use "2.8" as the AmericanE average number of children in a traditional family. Any idea what the # comparable European stat. might be?    -- David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.m   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jun 2001 13:19:05 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)U2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <h2NsKKnh6j1S@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  % In article <3b2117b4$1@news.si.com>, R@    "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:  ) >>The thrust of both these initiatives is1< >>that it is the introduction of airbags that has led to the! >>urgency of this recommendation.e > K > It was the invention of electricity that lead to the admonition of "don'tcL > stick your finger in the light socket".  All inventions that aid also have2 > the ability for misuse.  I don't get your point.  F    The point is that there apparently have been a number of fatalaties@ occurring in vehicles equipped with airbags which would not haveC occured in a situation which was identical other than the existancexE of said airbag. Those persons of short stature ( primarily children )iE would have been safe in the front seat if the airbag was not present.iA Granted they may have been safer in the back seat, but that's notC8 the point ( what if the back seat was already filled ? )  .=    This is enough of a real problem that the authorities find H it necessary to start issuing warning about who should ride in the front: seat, something they never felt the need to do beforehand.  @    I don't follow your analogy - before electricity there was noF "light socket" in which one might stick a finger. Cars had front seatsF long before airbags - it's ironic that a "safety device" has made that5 location more deadly for a portion of the population.   E    I haven't seen any figures on the other side of the equation - howsC much does an airbag enhance the chances of survival for a passengerm3 who is already using a properly adjusted seat belt?e   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 03:50:23 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?- Message-ID: <877kymwy2o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>m  - Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> writes:n  C > > Which, since we intend to go to the mountains, is the reason we C > > may end up getting an 8 cylinder engine in our next vehicle :-(   F > If your trips to the mountains are infrequent, consider renting thatD > 8 cylinder vehicle just for those occasions.  It may prove cheaper@ > in the long run, not to mention more environmentally friendly.  D If your mountain trip are infrequent, consider changing down a gear!   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda..@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 19:43:34 -0400' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?( Message-ID: <9frnq7$79u$1@pyrite.mv.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:h2NsKKnh6j1S@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...& > In article <3b2117b4$1@news.si.com>,B >    "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes: >d+ > >>The thrust of both these initiatives ist> > >>that it is the introduction of airbags that has led to the# > >>urgency of this recommendation.  > >aF > > It was the invention of electricity that lead to the admonition of "don'tI > > stick your finger in the light socket".  All inventions that aid alsos have4 > > the ability for misuse.  I don't get your point. >dH >    The point is that there apparently have been a number of fatalatiesB > occurring in vehicles equipped with airbags which would not haveE > occured in a situation which was identical other than the existancehG > of said airbag. Those persons of short stature ( primarily children ) G > would have been safe in the front seat if the airbag was not present. C > Granted they may have been safer in the back seat, but that's noty: > the point ( what if the back seat was already filled ? ) >p? >    This is enough of a real problem that the authorities findiJ > it necessary to start issuing warning about who should ride in the front< > seat, something they never felt the need to do beforehand. >iB >    I don't follow your analogy - before electricity there was noH > "light socket" in which one might stick a finger. Cars had front seatsH > long before airbags - it's ironic that a "safety device" has made that7 > location more deadly for a portion of the population.r >eG >    I haven't seen any figures on the other side of the equation - howcE > much does an airbag enhance the chances of survival for a passenger25 > who is already using a properly adjusted seat belt?i  G My recollection is not very much - but that was never the point:  whilefE state-enacted seat-belt laws have in fact lately significantly raisednI seat-belt usage in those states that enforce them, air bags were *always*eJ justified by the beneficial effect they produced among that portion of theF population that *didn't* wear seat belts (mostly based on studies that- predated any such increase in seat-belt use).r  H I happen to believe in letting natural selection take its course in suchI instances rather than making the rest of us pay for the stupidity of that E portion of the population, but in the end that would require refusing L insurance coverage to non-seat-belted accident victims and no politician wasL likely to take that stance - especially when belt use was even lower than itI is today.  Wish we had tried strictly-enforced belt-usage laws before theoD airbag option, though - and that's quite possibly the reason for the* anti-airbag sentiment seen in this thread.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:15:22 GMTe, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?: Message-ID: <_EfU6.4274$tb6.1704544@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  C In message <5jtT6.245371$Z2.2801316@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver"o <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote:S .....lA > Just curious Andrew, in England do you use Miles/U.S. Gallon ordD > Miles/Imperial Gallon? Nooooooooooooo. Scratch that question, this? > thread will start arguing about Metric measurements vs. other3 > measurements.w > E > Maybe we can turn this thread over to VMS Marketing, that will killh > it.a  J So maybe we should be arguing about whether we should be allowed change toK nature of the arguement or just continue arguing about what we were arguinge about?   -- a4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:15:21 GMTa, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?: Message-ID: <ZEfU6.4273$tb6.1704305@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  ; In message <3B1EFA27.4F0147A6@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"e <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: ...e > H > When I was little, I rode in the front seat between Mom and Dad in ourG > 1959 Ford "tank" - when cars were made of more than foil and plastic,V! > and still had steel dashboards.n > K Me too, and I still have the chip in my front tooth from Dad having to slamb on the brakes.   -- p4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jun 2001 10:26:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?- Message-ID: <87zobitmla.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  = "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:o  E > >   Funny how we hardly heard anything about "children in the back"(? > >here in North America until airbags started killing them :-}r  A > Not true.  Long before airbags were invented, everyone knew thes; > safest place for a child was the middle of the back seat.   E Unrestrained??? If so, then that is the worst possible place. It nearfH garentees they will go out through the windscreen! In a saftey basinette or child seat, yes.i  D BTW, they are great if there is a bad accident and rescue is needed.F Slit the belt to the car, and lift out seat, junior and all. No wories* about neck/spinal injury, minimum upset...  C Lacking good seat belts, the safest place for a very small child is   in the front passenger footwell.   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.d@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov d   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:25:37 -0700 + From: Linda Luik <p14175@email.sps.mot.com>.2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?1 Message-ID: <3B210A91.BD85AAB5@email.sps.mot.com>   G 1966 Dodge Powerwagon W200. Fuel mileage 8mpg regardless of conditions.mG Maintenance schedule? something has to be done practically every day tooG keep it running smoothly. I drive because I can, not because I have to.e   LindaF  $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: > d > In article <3b1e6631$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:L > >>> Also, where did you get the (false) idea that the majority of SUVs are > >fourrL > >>> wheel drive and that four wheel drive is significantly more economical > >than-B > >>> two wheel drive?  You're not presenting facts, just emotion. > >>- > >>I never said that 4wd is more economical.- > >-M > >No, you didn't.  I typed it wrong.  I meant: "and that four wheel drive isa% > >significantly less economical thana > >two wheel drive?" > 9 > -------------------------------------------------------0, >                       2001            20012 >                  Ford Expedition Ford Expedition, >                        2WD             4WD > 1 > EPA Size Class    Sport Utility   Sport Utilityt1 >                   Vehicle - 2WD   Vehicle - 4WDt. > Fuel Type            Regular         Regular, > MPG (city)              16              14, > MPG (hwy)               21              18- > Annual CO2            10.8             12.1s > emmissions   -- o
 Linda Luik Motorola GIS 2200 W. Broadway Rd.	 AZ09-M555  Mesa, Arizona 85202  Phone: 480-655-4432o FAX:   480-655-3659  Pager  1-888-772-5230  linda.luik@motorola.com    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.317 ************************