1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 12 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 323       Contents:/ RE: "Passive mode" with UCX/TCPIP FTP *client*? / Re: "Passive mode" with UCX/TCPIP FTP *client*? A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com , Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun3 %MMS-W-GWKLOOP (was: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS?) ; Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging ; RE: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging  Re: Bloated software Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars2 Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS) Disk Performance new DS10 homede boot disk problem ! Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem ! Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem  find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Global sections  Re: Global sections  Re: Global sections  Re: Hobbyist Licensing Re: Hobbyist Licensing Re: How to rewrite SLS in DCL  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing 1 Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster? " RE: NCP to NCL command equivilants" RE: NCP to NCL command equivilants OpenVMS v7.3 Re: OpenVMS v7.3- Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.  Secured FTP  Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX ! Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 RE: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)  V7.3 backup "improvement"  Re: Virtual Memory problem" www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime& Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime& Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime7 Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime (and JavaScript) ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:53:26 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>8 Subject: RE: "Passive mode" with UCX/TCPIP FTP *client*?6 Message-ID: <1010611163956.17800B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  @ PASSIVE doesn't work, at least on VMS V7.2-1, UCX V5.0A - ECO 2.	 It gives:   F %CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
  \PASSIVE\    3 quote PASV is accepted but seems to have no effect.   ; I was trying to download a supposed fix for the incremental = backup problem (see other thread) from Compaq support several 4 months ago, and I needed to go through a firewall...  > I searched through TCPIP and UCX help, release notes, etc. andA could find no useful mention of PASSIVE mode, at least in respect ? to the UCX FTP client.  (From mentions in the release notes for @ various UCX ECO's, I think the server has supported passive mode@ at least since UCX V3.2, but that was irrelevent, except to pose@ the questions "Why would they support PASSIVE mode in the server; but not in the client?  Are they thick as a whale omelet?")   7 I gave up and downloaded to a TCPWare system which does  PASSIVE mode just fine.   B P.S.  The so-called fix didn't help at all for the backup problem.< It just introduced the new bogus V7.3 behaviour of disabling9 /NOINCREMENTAL.  Since using /NOINCREMENTAL was the other 8 recommended work-around, this was particularly annoying.  - On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Christopher Smith wrote:   0 > I suppose you've tried the obvious "passive" ? > 7 > I don't have a UCX FTP client handy to try right now.  > 
 > Regards, >  > Chris  >  > > -----Original Message-----> > > From: GWDVMS::MOELLER [mailto:moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de] > ? > > Does any version of the UCX/TCPIP FTP client ($FTP command) # > > support passive ("PASV") mode?   > > > > > Even older UCX FTP servers apparently accept "quote PASV",7 > > but I can't find the command to tell the client ...    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:31:08 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)8 Subject: Re: "Passive mode" with UCX/TCPIP FTP *client*?) Message-ID: <gU9V6.4204$%L5.52394@insync>   4 GWDVMS::MOELLER (moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de) wrote:= : Does any version of the UCX/TCPIP FTP client ($FTP command) ! : support passive ("PASV") mode?   : < : Even older UCX FTP servers apparently accept "quote PASV",5 : but I can't find the command to tell the client ...  : O : Wolfgang J. Moeller, Tel. +49 551 201-1516/-1510, moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de O : GWDG, D-37077 Goettingen, F.R.Germany     |    Disclaimer: No claim intended! O : http://www.gwdg.de/~moeller/ ---- <moeller@gwdg.de> ---- <w.moeller@ieee.org>   & Version V5.1 has "set passive on|off".  / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net ;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:10:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com, Message-ID: <3B2509A0.CE7A1B41@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: H > The rationale for collecting the personal information is to aid in theK > analysis of issues and votes, e.g. if a significant number of respondents N > are concerned about system reliability, it would be valuable to know whether. > they were NSK, Tru64, VMS, or Windows users.  L Why would Compaq be bothered about Windows problems since Windows is not its
 own product ?   M And I have to wonder. How effective can a "be all to all" group really be ? I N think that Compaq should instead have a user group for each operating system.   N Telling some administrative assistant high up in the organisation that the wayN VMS patches are distributed is not great will do nothing. But if you had a VMSL user group which has direct interactions with VMS management, you would have3 far greater chances of getting things accomplished.   N As a result, if that compaqworkingroup thing collects information from any andJ all users of compaq gear, then I don't think that it can have the focus it! needs to have to get things done.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:59:42 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ; Message-ID: <iG7V6.6820$Tc.2151319@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in message $ news:3B24F84C.92FCE0A3@uk.sun.com... >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >  > > > > @ > > > > When will you stop referring to system that will come??? > > > 0 > > > Good god the cheek, remember I am replying/ > > > to Terrys estimates of the performance of 0 > > > a yet to be announced, yet to be delivered > > > Alpha server.  > > >  > > J > > Would that the estimates were low (they are not) and the delivery date was  > > 4CQ01 or beyond (it's not).  > > H > > Of course, with all the thousands of SunFires now running the vastlyG > > expanding dot-com world (McNealy said that in Week One the StarFire  midframeJ > > outsold IBM, et al, hence there MUST be thousands of 'em installed and upI > > and running in the field right now) there won't be any market for the  > > mythical 1GHz GS320. > >  > C > The customer I work for has 2 x 6800 installed and a further 8 on B > order for delivery in the next 10 days in London, they have moreC > machines installed and on order their other world-wide locations.  >  > They are by no means unusual.   I This is Good News indeed for Sun. (Seems to be a distressing lack of Good * News in the enterprise IT biz these days!)  E > Incedentally the only other option being considered for some of the > > 8 6800's was IBM P680's so at least in this case Sun outsold > IBM.  C It would be interesting to determine the installed bases of all the K Enterprise Server Vendors. Sun and IBM must be at the top of charts... both K the StarFire and the S8x have been sold in mass quantities. As far as "new" F systems go, I suspect CPQ has sold 1,600 or so GS-Series boxes by now.K Industry estimates of the HP Superdome installed base are much lower, as in E low triple digits as of the end of 1CQ01. How many SunFires have been D delivered, I dunno, but I suspect mass quantities have been ordered.  E Back in the "Good Old Days" when Sun ruled the workstation world, Sun H released detailed quarterly shipment numbers on all its products. To theA best of my recollection no other vendor provided equivalent data.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:13:03 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun L Message-ID: <OF625AE618.0173433C-ON03256A68.005E7C53@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  D Sounds funny but last year IBM had an internet project in Brazil for3 a special customer and  they used Sun E-250  (!!!!) + And I think it is a tendency here for them.    Regards    FC        A andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> em 11/06/2001 13:56:44   < Favor responder a andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       5 Assunto: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun        "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  >  > > > > > > > When will you stop referring to system that will come??? > > . > > Good god the cheek, remember I am replying- > > to Terrys estimates of the performance of . > > a yet to be announced, yet to be delivered > > Alpha server.  > >  > H > Would that the estimates were low (they are not) and the delivery date was  > 4CQ01 or beyond (it's not).  > F > Of course, with all the thousands of SunFires now running the vastlyE > expanding dot-com world (McNealy said that in Week One the StarFire  midframeK > outsold IBM, et al, hence there MUST be thousands of 'em installed and up G > and running in the field right now) there won't be any market for the  > mythical 1GHz GS320. >   A The customer I work for has 2 x 6800 installed and a further 8 on @ order for delivery in the next 10 days in London, they have moreA machines installed and on order their other world-wide locations.    They are by no means unusual.   C Incedentally the only other option being considered for some of the < 8 6800's was IBM P680's so at least in this case Sun outsold IBM.       Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:47:27 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ; Message-ID: <3n8V6.6834$Tc.2163065@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF625AE618.0173433C-ON03256A68.005E7C53@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...F > Sounds funny but last year IBM had an internet project in Brazil for5 > a special customer and  they used Sun E-250  (!!!!) - > And I think it is a tendency here for them.  >   F IBM will bid whatever they need to bid to win a deal. Some months ago,G Compaq and IBM were trying to win an account. Compaq bid a Himalaya NSK D system. They lost the bid to IBM, who bid a GS-Series system running OpenVMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:00:35 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun L Message-ID: <OFC5766EE7.C36BA950-ON03256A68.00685B63@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  E It is good to know .... If Sun or HP began to use OpenVMS servers.... $ IBM is not my favorite company ! ! !   Regards    FC        E "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> em 11/06/2001 15:47:27   @ Favor responder a "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       5 Assunto: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun       6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF625AE618.0173433C-ON03256A68.005E7C53@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...F > Sounds funny but last year IBM had an internet project in Brazil for5 > a special customer and  they used Sun E-250  (!!!!) - > And I think it is a tendency here for them.  >   F IBM will bid whatever they need to bid to win a deal. Some months ago,G Compaq and IBM were trying to win an account. Compaq bid a Himalaya NSK D system. They lost the bid to IBM, who bid a GS-Series system running OpenVMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:23:15 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ; Message-ID: <DU8V6.6842$Tc.2170488@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OFC5766EE7.C36BA950-ON03256A68.00685B63@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...G > It is good to know .... If Sun or HP began to use OpenVMS servers.... & > IBM is not my favorite company ! ! !  J Actually, I think IBM represents the biggest long-term threat to CPQ rightA now, especially with CPQ talking about "solution sales" and other E Blue-tinted things. And watch out for WebSphere... a Trojan Horse for  OpenVMS accounts!    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:15:07 -0700 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun D Message-ID: <OF6F420EC5.1CFDBD71-ON88256A68.006F31DB@foundation.com>  C Considering the heart of Web Sphere is Apache, I'd say it's already 
 started...   Shane           H "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> on 06/11/2001 12:23:15 PM  @ Please respond to "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   6 Subject:  Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun      6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OFC5766EE7.C36BA950-ON03256A68.00685B63@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...G > It is good to know .... If Sun or HP began to use OpenVMS servers.... & > IBM is not my favorite company ! ! !  J Actually, I think IBM represents the biggest long-term threat to CPQ rightA now, especially with CPQ talking about "solution sales" and other E Blue-tinted things. And watch out for WebSphere... a Trojan Horse for  OpenVMS accounts!    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 14:32:33 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) < Subject: %MMS-W-GWKLOOP (was: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS?)3 Message-ID: <mx0ufmv8bijg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <1CJqtebYjOcW@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > 2 > No, just MMS accessing (or not accessing) ODS-5.  . Yes, I see.  I keep getting %MMS-W-GWLOOP for:  \ aver-longfilename^&withSpecialCharacters.exe : aver-longfilename^&withSpecialCharacters.obj [ aver-longfilename^&withSpecialCharacters.obj : aver-longfilename^&withSpecialCharacters.f90   9 But everything works if I change the name to a.f90 et.al.    (Sorry about the width).  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:38:04 -0400 . From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>D Subject: Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging+ Message-ID: <9g3a61$cjp$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   E I realize it's bad form to follow up on my own posting, but I found a2 pointer to it at:0   http://www.tmesis.com/bsod/    Ken Randelld   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:39:24 -0500i+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>tD Subject: RE: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media PackagingL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F39@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   That would be VAXMan's work. :)t   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");? '       > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Kenneth Randell [mailto:kenr@datametrics.com]r% > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:38 PMa > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComsF > Subject: Re: A New Twist on OpenVMS Marketing... and Media Packaging >  > G > I realize it's bad form to follow up on my own posting, but I found aq > pointer to it at:  >  > http://www.tmesis.com/bsod/  > 
 > Ken Randellk >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 16:16:41 -0700" From: cstranslations@msn.com (Joe) Subject: Re: Bloated softwaree= Message-ID: <d56d1c2d.0106111516.2a10df2a@posting.google.com>i  ] Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message news:<3B229196.8D585A4E@infopuls.com>...  > B > A good OS design offers an integration platform and with gettingA > mature I don't see anything bad in including more services intou? > the OS which might have been supplied by 3rd party SW before.i  C I would think that product integration tends to stiffle innovation.e  F I suppose there's different ways to look at it (depending on if your aB 3rd party vendor or not). Netscape was probably less than thrilledC that Micro$shit integrated a browser into its OS. 5 or 6 years fromn= now AOL may be less than thrilled that IM was integrated intoeA WindowsXP (but then AOL has, at least at the moment, deep pocketseA which would make a "fight" between the 2 a bit more interesting).u   Joe    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 14:11:51 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young):' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warso3 Message-ID: <ZMKqOxAEoL0A@eisner.encompasserve.org>P  R In article <9g2uo3$e1l$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   > N > How good is Seagate at Enterprise support, and what do they know about Unix?M > It doesn't matter:  when you sell commodity storage, it's the OS vendor whoy > supports the customer. >   C 	This is a good example as Seagate's Xiotech doesn't support nearly.E 	as many platforms as the big boys.  Also, the nastiness is when thatD@ 	same driver that works for vendor X,Y and Z has a "glitch" whenC 	working with your box, the problem is your box.  Customer's demands? 	reliability and SNIA has strange bedfellows now in EMC, Compaq-? 	and IBM to cut down on the finger pointing come system problemaA 	time.  But all in all, big resources, a long history of shippingo6 	product will win out in this space (i.e big storage).   	Storage ain't PCs.6  A 	I'm not saying it won't ever happen, just that it will be a longt% 	time coming and M. Dell is dreaming.g  E 	By the way, Xiotech is nickle/dime when you count up their revenues.pA 	Sure they are growing and fast, but they are still a small drop   	in the big storage bucket.o   				Robp   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:34:45 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsr, Message-ID: <3B250F42.94046E7F@videotron.ca>   John Eisenschmidt wrote: > The problem is that anything like that will require another revolution (Mainframe to Mini, Mini to Micro, etc). I'm all for a Micro-Mini revolution. Who's with me?v  M Larry Elison is with you. One secret part of Digital that had developped thinsO client terminals was with you. Wasn't Sun also on the side of the thin client ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:21:35 -0400r+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> ' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warst# Message-ID: <sb24d3f7.062@aaas.org>   K That's interesting. We have a Xiotech SAN here, and while I agree that it =iF doesn't support the platforms the Sun or Compaq one does, it's a lot =G better than what Dell has to offer. We have ours attached to machines = G running Netware and NT (PCs) and  Suns running Solaris for two years. =FK We've had some pretty good luck, expecially since 2 years ago it was slim =-	 pickings.e  L I think that SAN technology is really where things need to be, but I don't =K think it's going to make any company rich (although - by our calculations = K the drives we buy from Xiotech are marked up 100% and then they charge us =eF ~$1500.00 for the carrier it comes in). NAS is crap, and storage has =; become crucial, particularly in heterogeneous environments.6  J I'm still trying to figure out how SAN is going to make Quantum all this =J money when they'll be selling them with other people's harddrives inside =A (though they're right that the backup market will make them $$$).4  C >>> Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> 06/11/2001 3:11:51 PM >>> L In article <9g2uo3$e1l$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> = writes:v   >=20J > How good is Seagate at Enterprise support, and what do they know about = Unix? K > It doesn't matter:  when you sell commodity storage, it's the OS vendor =T who4 > supports the customer. >=20  C 	This is a good example as Seagate's Xiotech doesn't support nearlysB 	as many platforms as the big boys.  Also, the nastiness is when = that@ 	same driver that works for vendor X,Y and Z has a "glitch" whenC 	working with your box, the problem is your box.  Customer's demand ? 	reliability and SNIA has strange bedfellows now in EMC, Compaq-? 	and IBM to cut down on the finger pointing come system problem A 	time.  But all in all, big resources, a long history of shippingk6 	product will win out in this space (i.e big storage).   	Storage ain't PCs..  A 	I'm not saying it won't ever happen, just that it will be a long % 	time coming and M. Dell is dreaming.   = 	By the way, Xiotech is nickle/dime when you count up their =f	 revenues.rC 	Sure they are growing and fast, but they are still a small drop=20b 	in the big storage bucket.    				RobS   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 15:05:19 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)w' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars 3 Message-ID: <HoJM9oF5kvKz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3B2506FE.34851E9F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Rob Young wrote:O >>         keep fed with storage is a pipedream.  Oh, how is Dell at EnterprisegO >>         support?  Sheesh, what do they know at all about Unix?   Is the hopeoK >>         that Windows 2000 takes over the world next year the impetus for  >>         Mikey's dreaming? > J > Doesn't Dell have a good relationship with IBM for worldwide support andO > service ? If so, then I would content that as the "PC" arm of IBM, Dell is ingK > a better position than Compaq because like it or not, IBM has much better1H > image of quality for support and service than Compaq. IBM is a serious! > company, Compaq is a box maker.r > O > If that realtionship still exists, I wouldn't be surprised if Dell repackaged O > IBM storage products and used its marketing and distribution to reach markets. > IBM wouldn't reach.y  8 	Re-packaged and sold at the same price or much cheaper?  > 	If "much cheaper", how would IBM do selling the same kit.  If 	same price, why bother?  B 	Dell is in storage for Dell.  Dell lacks a big services wing , soH 	as we might guess it could be hard for them to do "Enterprise" storage.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 15:08:04 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsi3 Message-ID: <zH$dtX9othN6@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  Q In article <sb24d3f7.062@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:cM > That's interesting. We have a Xiotech SAN here, and while I agree that it =dH > doesn't support the platforms the Sun or Compaq one does, it's a lot =I > better than what Dell has to offer. We have ours attached to machines =oI > running Netware and NT (PCs) and  Suns running Solaris for two years. =aM > We've had some pretty good luck, expecially since 2 years ago it was slim =e > pickings.u > N > I think that SAN technology is really where things need to be, but I don't =M > think it's going to make any company rich (although - by our calculations = M > the drives we buy from Xiotech are marked up 100% and then they charge us = H > ~$1500.00 for the carrier it comes in). NAS is crap, and storage has == > become crucial, particularly in heterogeneous environments.a > L > I'm still trying to figure out how SAN is going to make Quantum all this =L > money when they'll be selling them with other people's harddrives inside =C > (though they're right that the backup market will make them $$$).r >   > 	This is just the segment that Xiotech does well in.  NT, Sun,C 	Netware.  There are many other segments.  If at a corporate level, > 	you decide to go with a vendor, the idea is they support yourA 	platform.  Obviously, Xiotech is targetting a niche due to theirtB 	lack of a total solution (i.e. multi-platform support where multi 	is a large number).   	Xiotech has a great product.a   				Rob-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:21:47 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>j' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warss( Message-ID: <9g3ck6$ovt$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:ZMKqOxAEoL0A@eisner.encompasserve.org...rL > In article <9g2uo3$e1l$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:d >y > > J > > How good is Seagate at Enterprise support, and what do they know about Unix? K > > It doesn't matter:  when you sell commodity storage, it's the OS vendoru who> > > supports the customer. > >o > D > This is a good example as Seagate's Xiotech doesn't support nearly$ > as many platforms as the big boys.  L No, it was a bad example, because it threw you off the track.  I was lookingE for a pure-play disk manufacturer, and forgot about Seagate's XIOtechrE acquisition.  But IBM would have been even more misleading, can't use I Quantum any more, and Western Digital or Maxtor don't have quite the samet clout.  J And IIRC XIOtech is pretty much a SAN outfit.  The need for specializationJ in that area will take a nose-dive as soon as good, intelligent boxes thatL are happy to use Ethernet appear (I'm talking less about simple SCSI-over-IPD here than about higher-level interfaces that better leverage the boxI intelligence).  That gives you commodity-style distributed storage with a2I familiar interconnect - the two ingredients necessary to take storage off  the high-maintenance table.e  "   Also, the nastiness is when thatA > same driver that works for vendor X,Y and Z has a "glitch" when 1 > working with your box, the problem is your box.e  H Same observation applies to disks.  The solution is that either they getJ fixed or it becomes a defined constraint.  In either case, there's no realK 'Enterprise' support involved, though it seems likely that most problems of1I that ilk that a box experiences can be fixed by a software upgrade rathere than complete unit replacement.m  A My point was that the kinds of boxes I described will be sold andn& 'supported' much like disks are today.     Customer's demand @ > reliability and SNIA has strange bedfellows now in EMC, Compaq@ > and IBM to cut down on the finger pointing come system problem > time.i  J Again, notice that companies like WD and Maxtor aren't part of that group.> When boxes become standardized, the same will be true of their@ manufacturers.  Even before that time, individual box types withJ well-defined interfaces and a consistent record of reliable operation willH tend to be the last, rather than the first, suspects when something goes wrong.  ;   But all in all, big resources, a long history of shippingm7 > product will win out in this space (i.e big storage).k >q > Storage ain't PCs. >tB > I'm not saying it won't ever happen, just that it will be a long& > time coming and M. Dell is dreaming.  G It's already here, at least the start of it.  Someone (I forget who) iscL producing a Linux box filled with IDE disks and a FC card that makes it look- like a normal FC device to the outside world.n   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:42:59 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r; Subject: Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS)t' Message-ID: <3B251F43.BBC6A4B3@fsi.net>0   "POWERS, John" wrote:t > > > From: goathunter@goatley.com [mailto:goathunter@goatley.com] >  > > 8 > >On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:00:49 -0400, "Fred Kleinsorge"' > ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:h > >o, > >>Geez, why not just  $ define dcl$path [] > >>I > >>Gets you UNIX-like automatic invokation of foreign images and commandc > files.M > >>And since it's a search path, you can make it as broad or confined as youy	 > >>want.g > >>H > >True.  Of course, the original statement was about creating DCL-styleI > >qualifiers, and Brian's CLIFLAGS(FOREIGN) CLD file didn't address thata
 > >at all. > > F > >There are still valid reasons for using that, though, just to avoid
 > symbols.I > >One is that DCL$PATH doesn't exist in older versions of VMS.  Also, if3 > you'reL > >managing a system and want users to be able to define their own DCL$PATH, > butgH > >still have command XXX, this is a way to do it that doesn't rely on a	 > logical  > >or symbol definition. > >t	 > >Huntert	 > >------Q > J > There is another reason to be wary about the use of DCL$PATH. There is aI > strange anomaly about the way DCL$PATH works, that I have seen me a few J > times. If defined, and an unknown command is entered, then DCL will lookK > to see if there is a .COM or .EXE in the DCL$SEARCH directory path searchmK > list. However if there is, it does not simply run what it finds - rather,BM > it passes the original command back to the file system, to see what to run.  > H > This is in my opinion a bug, as it is clearly in violation of what theH > documented behaviour is. To quote from section 14.14 of the VMS user's
 > Manual.. > K > |However, if the logical name DCL$PATH is defined (and is not blank), DCLaI > |instead performs an RMS $SEARCH for any file that contains the invalidrK > |verb in its file name and DCL$PATH:.* as the default file specification.r > |mM > |If DCL finds a .COM or .EXE file, DCL will automatically execute that file I > |with the rest of the command line as its parameters. (This behavior issF > |similar to the PATH options found in DOS, UNIX, and other operating > systems.)o > I > It does not automatically execute 'that file' - rather it re-parses theT
 > command. > M > This has unexpected results, if anybody creates a logical name that matches3N > a foreign command. It checks that there is a file with that name in the path( > then runs a completely different file. > H > I once had a logical name called 'SYMBOL' (don't ask!) and there was a	 > packagenL > called SYMBOL in the path. Whenever I tried calling the SYMBOL command, itK > barfed, as it found there was a command in DCL$PATH to obey, but instead,e > tried 5 > to run a mailbox that SYMBOL was pointing to. Ouch!r > M > I am a sadder and a wiser man now, and do not repeat this. However there isS > noL > way to prevent users from creating there own logical names which can clash > withH > commands we supply - especially as we are always advising users to use	 > logical-I > names where possible instead of hard-coding filenames. This problem has  > arisen > a couple of times since. > L > The ideal answer is for the DCL$PATH command to do exactly what it says on > the L > tin. In the meantime beware that strange unexpected things can happen with > DCL$PATH.a  ! For further info., take alook at:   5 http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/dclinter/sld010.htmR5 http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/dclinter/sld011.htmi5 http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/dclinter/sld012.htme  < (from my DECUS presentation, "Intermediate DCL Programming")   -- n David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:00:42 +0100\. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Disk Performance newgB Message-ID: <kebV6.9662$6d5.2036575@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>  K No, not another message in the very long and heated thread with the similar: name.T Just a question.H From the thread mentioned and others over the years it would appear thatJ many people have done a lot of work benchmarking various disk, controller,# RAID configurations over the years.l  J Are any of the people who have done this work prepared to publish or shareG this in some way so that an a more general picture could be built up ofe2 actual performance of various disk configurations.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 12:56:02 -0700- From: merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt) & Subject: DS10 homede boot disk problem= Message-ID: <b6bf97d5.0106111156.20c50187@posting.google.com>i  N Hi I created a 7.2-1 and a 7.1-2 vms boot disk for DS10 and it boots past the L vms banner where I get Volume read only ,Mount verification in progress this> seems to dismount the disk and the boot stops there any ideas?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:07:08 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i* Subject: Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem+ Message-ID: <3B2524E3.EE50ED1@videotron.ca>i   rob merritt wrote: > O > Hi I created a 7.2-1 and a 7.1-2 vms boot disk for DS10 and it boots past thenN > vms banner where I get Volume read only ,Mount verification in progress this@ > seems to dismount the disk and the boot stops there any ideas?  L Hada similar behaviour with a SCSI-1 disk on a VMS machine. Essentially, VMSH was sending some command to the disk drive that go the disk drive stuck.  N During that time, I was able to go around this by physically disconnecting theJ power from the disk drive, and then putting the power back on for the diskY drive and then VMS would continue the boot process and not offer any problems thereafter.g  N HOWEVER: I did not have any message when it was getting stuck, only when I wasK powering the disk down would it go into mount verification which would thene& complete once disk is powered back up.  K In your case, I suspect that you have set some jumper to disable writing toaM the drive, something which VMS needs to do to access the page/swap files that ) are mounted early on in the boot process..   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:30:02 GMTl2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)* Subject: Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem3 Message-ID: <eT9V6.1325$fi2.37673@news.cpqcorp.net>g  m In article <b6bf97d5.0106111156.20c50187@posting.google.com>, merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt) writes:aO :Hi I created a 7.2-1 and a 7.1-2 vms boot disk for DS10 and it boots past the tM :vms banner where I get Volume read only ,Mount verification in progress this4? :seems to dismount the disk and the boot stops there any ideas?c  *   Your posting is unfortunately too terse.     Some general questions...c  <   Do both of your system disks manifest this same behaviour?  =   Has this AlphaServer DS10 system ever bootstrapped OpenVMS?   -   I'd look at the disk drive configuration...o     IDE or SCSI?
   Multi-host?n
   Cluster?(   Specific disk type, model, and vendor?6   If SCSI, how long is the bus, is it terminated, etc?6   If IDE, which bus and is it the master or the slave?-   How far past the OpenVMS banner do you get?16   Exactly how did you create this OpenVMS "boot disk"?  -   I'd then look at your OpenVMS parameters...g  F   Does booting conversationally, then invoking a minimal startup help?J   Does booting conversationally, then get the USE DEFAULT parameters work?  F   I'd also look at the OpenVMS SRM settings, though these are probably   not related...  B   The operating system setting in the console is OpenVMS, correct?'   You have current SRM firmware loaded?      And some general comments...  I   That the system bootstrap drops into mount verification tends to point rI   to a storage configuration or storage hardware problem -- the bootstrapcI   drivers used early in the bootstrap are very primitive, and the switch rH   over to the OpenVMS disk drivers that occurs during the bootstrap can >   uncover various I/O hardware and I/O configuration problems.  E   Check the FAQ for details on how to select full logging on startup.SG   This might provide additional details, but it might leave you lookingm0   at the storage I/O hardware and configuration.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:42:44 GMT 7 From: trevor.osatchuk@nospam.pscl.com (Trevor Osatchuk)   Subject: find files base on size5 Message-ID: <3b2555f3.324630463@news.telusplanet.net>t  E I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largeZD files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spaceF left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files canF be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directories) over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this?r   Thanks!    Trevor Osatchukk   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:02:26 +0010P% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aua$ Subject: Re: find files base on size5 Message-ID: <01K4OI3HEAOI001EWT@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>o  F >I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largeE >files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spacerG >left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files cannG >be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directoriesc* >over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this? >  >Thanks! >@ >Trevor Osatchuk  : Check out the help for directory /select=size=minimum=nnnn   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australial   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,o; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:11:48 +0800 4 From: Dave Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@BIGPOND.COM>$ Subject: Re: find files base on size+ Message-ID: <3B258874.9B29F412@bigpond.com>    Trevor Osatchuk wrote: > G > I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largerF > files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spaceH > left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files canH > be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directories+ > over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this?c > 	 > Thanks!  >  > Trevor Osatchuke   $ HELP DIRECTORY/SELECT, will give you the full details.g  8 $ directory/select=size=minimum=20000 device:[000000...]   Regards, Dave.e --I David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.com-I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/rI DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmtI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennono   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 00:25:41 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>h$ Subject: Re: find files base on size. Message-ID: <3b2561b0@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  L The DCL procedure below will find any file with 10,000 or more blocks on youB system.  Change parameters as you need to get better resolution or information as you need it.d< ============================================================ $SET PROC/PRIV=ALL $!6 $! Find files on any disk with more than 10,000 blocks $! $! ITEM "EOF" IS FOR USED.../ $! ITEM "ALQ" IS FOR ALLOCATED, BUT NOT USED...  $! $DISK_LOOP:w $! $DISK = F$DEVICE("*","DISK")% $ IF DISK .EQS. "" THEN GOTO FINISHED0% $ MOUNTED = F$GETDVI("''DISK'","MNT")s3 $ IF "''MOUNTED'" .EQS. "FALSE" THEN GOTO DISK_LOOPr $FILE_LOOP:e $!/ $ FILE = F$SEARCH("''DISK'[000000...]*.*.*", 1)e& $ IF FILE .EQS. "" THEN GOTO DISK_LOOP* $ SPEC= F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("''FILE'","EOF") $ SPEC2 = f$INTEGER(SPEC)d $!+ $ IF (SPEC2 .LT. 10000) THEN GOTO FILE_LOOPb $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''FILE'" $ GOTO FILE_LOOP $!
 $FINISHED: $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT ""e $EXIT  $!  < ============================================================ --
 Bill Pedersenc CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learningp
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  D "Trevor Osatchuk" <trevor.osatchuk@nospam.pscl.com> wrote in message/ news:3b2555f3.324630463@news.telusplanet.net....G > I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for large-F > files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spaceH > left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files canH > be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directories+ > over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this?m >s	 > Thanks!r >  > Trevor Osatchuke   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:44:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a$ Subject: Re: find files base on size, Message-ID: <3B2565E6.3B8972C6@videotron.ca>   Bill Pedersen wrote: > N > The DCL procedure below will find any file with 10,000 or more blocks on youD > system.  Change parameters as you need to get better resolution or > information as you need it. > > ============================================================    6 DIR/select=size=minimum=10000  dua0:[000000...]*.*;*    I will do the trick without the need for a command procedure. The selectionuN criteria seems to act on the allocated size of the file based on a simple test I have made.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:26:49 GMTa& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Global sections> Message-ID: <ZX8V6.440735$o9.70484035@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  E Didn't a recent VMS release allow the access of global sections amongtI cluster nodes?  I have been looking for some documentation on that, but IwI have not found it yet.  Our development programmers are saying I am nuts.g They may be right.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 16:01:54 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)k Subject: Re: Global sections3 Message-ID: <VPIYZHPeR8GT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <ZX8V6.440735$o9.70484035@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes: G > Didn't a recent VMS release allow the access of global sections amongbK > cluster nodes?  I have been looking for some documentation on that, but IrK > have not found it yet.  Our development programmers are saying I am nuts.x > They may be right.  D Only within a Galaxy.  If you think about it, the nature of hardwareD makes performance bad in most environments, since there is no sharedD memory.  Perhaps it could be done for Memory Channel, but that seems( to be getting less emphasis these days.   N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:17:16 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Global sections3 Message-ID: <gH9V6.1324$fi2.37814@news.cpqcorp.net>   g In article <ZX8V6.440735$o9.70484035@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:mF :Didn't a recent VMS release allow the access of global sections among :cluster nodes?   J   Recent OpenVMS changes include the Galactic sections -- sections shared K   among systems in an OpenVMS Galaxy configuration -- and sections that do -E   not have backing storage, and the ICC Intra Cluster Communications  I   services have now made intra-cluster communications via Memory Channel CD   and via all other SCS-supported ports available to applications.    H   That said, there has been no new means made avaiable to share sectionsI   among members of an OpenVMS Cluster configuration.  I am aware of folks,K   that have very carefully shared the section file itself, but this is not  H   something I generally recommend -- you have to be very careful to haveI   only one application write to the section and you must provide your ownsJ   cache flush and cache fill, lest the section data contents get clobberedK   by "uncoordinated" page reads or page writes to/from the backing storage.q  K   Most folks use RTR or ICC or IP or other communications to keep the data lM   in multiple parallel sections in line, or -- likely far easier, and likely dL   as fast (or faster) once you handle all the weird cases you need to handleF   when working with sections -- RMS files with global buffers enabled.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:39:26 -0400L- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licensings4 Message-ID: <t0aV6.248174$Z2.2856559@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  E "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> wrote in messagetC news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0106111736400.1770-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl...u >...? >  Will ask personally where a person from Poland can get DECUS.2 > membership :) excepting migration :> of course ! >...  B I was in the same boat (DECUS Canada changed its name to somethingF else the disappeared from the face of the Earth) but I was able to get) a "non-member" identifier from Encompass.a  ; When I asked what a "non-member" was I received this reply;    ***** B For a non-US Resident to become a Member of the U.S. Chapter, they need toeC apply for a Sustaining Membership ($40 per annum; U.S. Funds).  Thel form is D at http://www.decus.org/encompass/Membership/mail-form.shtml and you can faxe4 or mail it back to Membership Services with payment.  F The non-membership status allows you to receive symposium information, as/ well as apply for the OpenVMS Hobbyist License.n *****h  D So being a non-member is free and open to anyone in the world. It is, enough to get you into the Hobbyist program.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:37:09 -0400d- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>h Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licensings- Message-ID: <3B255625.238C7C3B@bellsouth.net>e  G Hooray!!!   I received a message today stating that my request has been E processed and I should have the Encompasse ID with in the next day or.- so!!!  Then, I can order the Hobbyist kit!!!!s  F Re-reading my message, it sounds more harsh than I really intended.  IG should take my own advice and vent  in a message, then wait a day or so- before sending it...  0 $SET MOUTH/open=WIDE/insert=FOOT/ask=FORGIVENESS   Thanks,n   Michael Austin     Michael Austin wrote:   D > Q:  Will a Hobbyist layered product license work with a "real" VMSG > license?  I have an alpha 2100 (H layered product level with a "real" B > VMS license) that I need to install FORTRAN and C for a personalH > project.  Now, the real problem is that I have not been able to obtainI > the hobbyist kit, since Compaq/Encompass cannot get me registered as and > Encompass member.. >S > $SET FLAME/ENABLE=HOTaH > This really should not be this difficult. If they are using an outsideH > vendor to process the enrollments, they should be fired if they cannot
 > do the job.w > $SET FLAME/DISABLE > 
 > Regards, >e > Michael Austin   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:02:34 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.& Subject: Re: How to rewrite SLS in DCL, Message-ID: <3B2507B9.E9A869C5@videotron.ca>   frank foley wrote: > D > We want to replace SLS by DCL, maybe with Oracle as Tape Database.3 > (VMS 7.3 Alpha, TL810 Tape Roboter, Oracle 8.0.5)s > Did anyone do this before ?   H In a previous life, I had replaced Tapesys with pure DCL with tapes in aM simple indexed RMS file. Increased reliability of backups 500%. I was gettingtI tired of being woken up in the middle of the night due to backup hanging.h9 (this was before BACKUP had official callable interface).s  $ Don't have that code anymore though.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:01:22 GMTd4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <SH7V6.6822$Tc.2152017@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>-  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OFF94A8204.278876C2-ON03256A68.00589B6F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...@ > Compaq has an ad in an important newspaper in Brazil (O Globo) >o > It is saying:I >e, > "Money moves the world. We move the money" >n > And it is saying:  > < > "The High Availabily solutions from Compaq are responsibleA > for 95 % of the financial transactions in the World in security D > environments. like for example credit cards, funds transfer, stock' > exchange, and blah, blah, blah (...)"m >@, > But the advertisment dont mention OPENVMS.  ) Does it mention NSK, or no OS whatsoever?i >t6 > So, Compaq can use the fame of OpenVMS to sell other1 > products. If you dont know Compaq by OpenVMS orp; > Kernel Non Stop, you will think first in Proliant Serversr > runnin Windows NT..... >  > It is a shame of ad.  @ Certainly not the image I'd be trying to convey if I was Compaq!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:13:11 -0300d) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brt( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingL Message-ID: <OF1C206F61.5412874F-ON03256A68.00640615@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  & There is not reference about any OS...  ' But you know:  Compaq is Compaq (Intel)t  8 The brand name still being connected to Intel machines !   Regardsh   FC        E "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> em 11/06/2001 15:01:22u  @ Favor responder a "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma      ( Assunto: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing      6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OFF94A8204.278876C2-ON03256A68.00589B6F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...@ > Compaq has an ad in an important newspaper in Brazil (O Globo) >2 > It is saying:m >o, > "Money moves the world. We move the money" >c > And it is saying:o >i< > "The High Availabily solutions from Compaq are responsibleA > for 95 % of the financial transactions in the World in security D > environments. like for example credit cards, funds transfer, stock' > exchange, and blah, blah, blah (...)"i >o, > But the advertisment dont mention OPENVMS.  ) Does it mention NSK, or no OS whatsoever?i > 6 > So, Compaq can use the fame of OpenVMS to sell other1 > products. If you dont know Compaq by OpenVMS ors; > Kernel Non Stop, you will think first in Proliant Serversm > runnin Windows NT..... >a > It is a shame of ad.  @ Certainly not the image I'd be trying to convey if I was Compaq!   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:22:52 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <008V6.6827$Tc.2156591@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF1C206F61.5412874F-ON03256A68.00640615@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...( > There is not reference about any OS... >e) > But you know:  Compaq is Compaq (Intel)p >l: > The brand name still being connected to Intel machines ! >a  6 Yes, either by accident or design, this is sadly true.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:31:47 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing+ Message-ID: <3B250E90.4DC599A@videotron.ca>s  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:< > "The High Availabily solutions from Compaq are responsibleA > for 95 % of the financial transactions in the World in security D > environments. like for example credit cards, funds transfer, stock' > exchange, and blah, blah, blah (...)"  > , > But the advertisment dont mention OPENVMS.  N That is because most of the stuff mentioned above runs on Tandem machines. AndN VMS can't mention funds transfers anymore because SWIFT announced in 1998 thatJ they were going to pull the plug on banks using VMS to connect to SWIFT (I0 beleive this is to happen next year or in 2003).  N VMS may have a few stock exchanges it can brag about (even wondered why ISE isM alwasy mentioned ? when an OS always mentions the same site, it means that it-$ doesn't have many sites to mention).- However, Tandem has far more stock exchanges.   M The one stab that Compaq could take is mention that Montral's stock exchangevM was a VMS shop back in mid-late 1980s, but migrated to a competitor, and now,eK it has downsized itself to just a futures/derivatives trading organisation.hK (I.e. if you migrate to Sun, you risk putting yourself out of existence :-) H ;-) :-) (Of course, that isn't the reason Montral lost its exchange...)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:39:59 -0700t! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comi( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingD Message-ID: <OFBC65D1E3.6BB7B326-ON88256A68.00663BFE@foundation.com>  F Intel isn't so dominant there anymore. A lot of their fastest consumerB desktops are AMD Athlon based these days. Looking at the specs andJ technology of the multi-CPU chips they're shipping and developing, AMD may! creep into the server space, too.f  J Now if we could just get Compaq to point out the performance advantages ofH Alphas over all x86 based machines in the server space, and the improved# security if you put VMS on there...f   Shaned          = fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br on 06/11/2001 11:43:11 AM!  5 Please respond to fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bry   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come cc:,  ) Subject:  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketingp    & There is not reference about any OS...  ' But you know:  Compaq is Compaq (Intel)9  8 The brand name still being connected to Intel machines !   Regardsu   FC        E "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> em 11/06/2001 15:01:22   @ Favor responder a "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       ( Assunto: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing      6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OFF94A8204.278876C2-ON03256A68.00589B6F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...@ > Compaq has an ad in an important newspaper in Brazil (O Globo) >a > It is saying:a >r, > "Money moves the world. We move the money" >l > And it is saying:e > < > "The High Availabily solutions from Compaq are responsibleA > for 95 % of the financial transactions in the World in security/D > environments. like for example credit cards, funds transfer, stock' > exchange, and blah, blah, blah (...)"D >C, > But the advertisment dont mention OPENVMS.  ) Does it mention NSK, or no OS whatsoever?i >[6 > So, Compaq can use the fame of OpenVMS to sell other1 > products. If you dont know Compaq by OpenVMS oro; > Kernel Non Stop, you will think first in Proliant Serversd > runnin Windows NT..... >e > It is a shame of ad.  @ Certainly not the image I'd be trying to convey if I was Compaq!   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:50:16 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <Ip8V6.6835$Tc.2163793@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>s  . <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message> news:OFBC65D1E3.6BB7B326-ON88256A68.00663BFE@foundation.com... >aH > Intel isn't so dominant there anymore. A lot of their fastest consumerD > desktops are AMD Athlon based these days. Looking at the specs andL > technology of the multi-CPU chips they're shipping and developing, AMD may# > creep into the server space, too.E >AL > Now if we could just get Compaq to point out the performance advantages ofJ > Alphas over all x86 based machines in the server space, and the improved% > security if you put VMS on there...S  I Improved security *and* lower insurance premiums, as per The Inquirer and0 CNET...*  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/09060104.htmS   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:59:37 -0300C) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brI( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingL Message-ID: <OFEBCABBF1.572CA391-ON03256A68.00684509@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  5 When I say Intel means .... Intel and "clones"  ! ! !    Regardse   FC        E "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> em 11/06/2001 15:50:16=  @ Favor responder a "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com@      ( Assunto: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing      . <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message> news:OFBC65D1E3.6BB7B326-ON88256A68.00663BFE@foundation.com... >eH > Intel isn't so dominant there anymore. A lot of their fastest consumerD > desktops are AMD Athlon based these days. Looking at the specs andH > technology of the multi-CPU chips they're shipping and developing, AMD mayr# > creep into the server space, too.- >-I > Now if we could just get Compaq to point out the performance advantageso ofJ > Alphas over all x86 based machines in the server space, and the improved% > security if you put VMS on there...r  I Improved security *and* lower insurance premiums, as per The Inquirer ando CNET...u  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/09060104.htmt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:40:28 -0300=) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br=( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingL Message-ID: <OFCD542ACF.95473623-ON03256A68.006644DD@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  H I've read a lot of presentations and links informing about the strong u= se> of OpenVMS in the finance market. Probably these presentations are not updated.  ( " - I SUGGEST COMPAQ AN  OPENVMS CENSUS"  / Or Compaq is afraid about the results ?????????e   RegardsZ   F=E1bio Cardoso4        > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> em 11/06/2001 15:31:47  9 Favor responder a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt      ( Assunto: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing    * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:< > "The High Availabily solutions from Compaq are responsibleA > for 95 % of the financial transactions in the World in securitylD > environments. like for example credit cards, funds transfer, stock' > exchange, and blah, blah, blah (...)"V >4, > But the advertisment dont mention OPENVMS.  H That is because most of the stuff mentioned above runs on Tandem machin= es.c AndoH VMS can't mention funds transfers anymore because SWIFT announced in 19= 98 thatH they were going to pull the plug on banks using VMS to connect to SWIFT=  (Ia0 beleive this is to happen next year or in 2003).  H VMS may have a few stock exchanges it can brag about (even wondered why=  ISE isH alwasy mentioned ? when an OS always mentions the same site, it means t= hat  it$ doesn't have many sites to mention).- However, Tandem has far more stock exchanges.=  F The one stab that Compaq could take is mention that Montr=E9al's stock exchangeH was a VMS shop back in mid-late 1980s, but migrated to a competitor, an= d= now,H it has downsized itself to just a futures/derivatives trading organisat= ion.H (I.e. if you migrate to Sun, you risk putting yourself out of existence=  :-)H ;-) :-) (Of course, that isn't the reason Montr=E9al lost its exchange.= .)         =1   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:13:39 -0400a0 From: Jason Fountain <Jason.Fountain@compaq.com>: Subject: Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster?* Message-ID: <3B253483.C2C6BCBB@compaq.com>   GWDVMS::MOELLER wrote:   >l5 > Only TCPIP V5.1 documentation seems to tell me thata@ > multiple "BIND" servers within a cluster are a possibility ... >b4 > So, is my idea correct that TCPIP V5.1 is required< > in order to have multiple "BIND" servers within a cluster?  J It is required for the use of multiple *master* servers to be *supported*.I There is a tool to aid in setting it all up.  You could have done this inr2 previous TCP/IP versions but you were on your own.  O I don't think there was ever a restriction against having a master and slave iniQ the same cluster.  I just looked at some old V4.x docs and the only restriction IeN see is "You can configure only one primary name server per VMScluster system."N (and same thing again with secondary substituted for primary)  But that is per system, not per cluster.  M There is definitely no such restriction for V5.0 and above.  Only the lack ofe< official support for multiple masters in a cluster until 5.1   -jason   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 14:37:06 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e+ Subject: RE: NCP to NCL command equivilantsw3 Message-ID: <bROJo$ApV3ft@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  v In article <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHGECLEMAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>, arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> writes: > I'll repost..w > ( > To display corresponding NCL commands: >  > $ mcr net$mgmt >   C Yep, found that.  Also found a list of identifiers (NET$EXAMINE andnC such) it will look for, but can't find the values those identifiers-@ should have.  Even the installation and setup scripts assume theB identifiers already exist.  They don't on my system.  When I try a random value, they fail.  5 Can someone post a list of working NET$* identifiers?r  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupnE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:46:10 -0500a0 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>+ Subject: RE: NCP to NCL command equivilantsnC Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHMEDHEMAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>n  :   NET$DECLAREOBJECT                %X91F50005      DYNAMIC:   NET$DECNETACCESS                 %X91F50007      DYNAMIC:   NET$DIAGNOSE                     %X91F50004      DYNAMIC:   NET$EXAMINE                      %X91F50001      DYNAMIC:   NET$MANAGE                       %X91F50002      DYNAMIC:   NET$POSTEVENT                    %X91F50008      DYNAMIC:   NET$REGISTERDNSOBJECT            %X91F50006      DYNAMIC:   NET$SECURITY                     %X91F50003      DYNAMIC:   NET$TRACEALL                     %X91F50009      DYNAMIC:   NET$TRACEALLREMOTE               %X91F5000B      DYNAMIC:   NET$TRACEHEADERS                 %X91F5000A      DYNAMIC:   NET$TRACEHEADERSREMOTE           %X91F5000C      DYNAMIC      Those are what we have set up...         -----Original Message-----4 From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]# Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:37 PMT To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms+ Subject: RE: NCP to NCL command equivilantss    J In article <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHGECLEMAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>, arturo+ saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> writes:i > I'll repost..M >H( > To display corresponding NCL commands: >n > $ mcr net$mgmt >n  C Yep, found that.  Also found a list of identifiers (NET$EXAMINE andiC such) it will look for, but can't find the values those identifierse@ should have.  Even the installation and setup scripts assume theB identifiers already exist.  They don't on my system.  When I try a random value, they fail.  5 Can someone post a list of working NET$* identifiers?s  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationr= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouphE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:14:10 +0100 * From: "Pete" <peter@pahpc.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: OpenVMS v7.3i/ Message-ID: <9g3c3o$cgi$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>D   Hi,sK     we are currently about to embark on an upgrade process to get our Alpha J systems up to OVMS V7.3. Does anyone out there use BMC's Control-M (LatestL Ver fd3802 I'm told ) and Sterling S/W's Connect:Direct (V3.1-00) and have U! had any problems with OVMS V7.3 ?s       Tia     Pete.a   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 17:23:29 -05007 From: hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)  Subject: Re: OpenVMS v7.3h3 Message-ID: <Fu0XRUivWT3U@eisner.encompasserve.org>l   Hi Pete,  V Are you using the "agent" version of CONTROL-M?  If so, which TCP/IP stack do you use?  a I ask, because V5.1 (and later) of COMPAQ's TCP/IP stack "breaks" the agent version of CONTROL-M.    See my post in the TCP news group, or follow up here, if your environment matches the above, and I can provide you with details, m including a "fix".   Thanks,2 Brad  ] >In article <9g3c3o$cgi$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Pete" <peter@pahpc.freeserve.co.uk> writes:( > Hi,)M >     we are currently about to embark on an upgrade process to get our Alpha L > systems up to OVMS V7.3. Does anyone out there use BMC's Control-M (LatestN > Ver fd3802 I'm told ) and Sterling S/W's Connect:Direct (V3.1-00) and have U# > had any problems with OVMS V7.3 ?a >  >     Tia     Pete.k >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:54:49 GMTe6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.D Message-ID: <teaV6.4201$eZ6.591032@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  G See the notes for OpenVMS VMS721_SYS-V0500 (I think it's at least V0800.K now).  We found this right away on Alpha VMS 7.2-1 upgrades and worked withnI CSC until a real fix became available for all cases.  They knew about the  problem when I called.  K As you noted, a quiet disk seems more likely to display this behaviour thani a busy one.D     --   Andy Bustamante2( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagew) news:00256A68.004B5EA5.00@quegw01.btyp...a > cc:l > bcc:H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazas >n+ > Problem with large queue lengths on disk.a >  >p > We have the following setup; >aL > Alpha 8400 with OpenVMS 7.2-1 and disks on an ESA10000 behind HSZ70's. The disksOH > are mirrored - pairs - on the controller, and form a shadow set on the node [in/ > this particular case a single device shadow].t >rK > We have a situation where we are getting consistent queue lengths of over) 5500H > on one specific disk. There is no noticable IO activity on the device, althoughB > I suspect I shouldn't be surprised at that. I can do a directory search,edit orI > other activity without any apparent loss of response. I'm unsure how to  removeG > this queueing activity, or should I just leave it and see if it sorts  itselfE > out? This situation has been ongoing at least for the whole of thiso morning,K > possibly longer although I haven't yet had the opportunity to go back andr look.d >sG > We have reset the controllers but to no avail. I am trying to avoid an reboot.n >o > Any suggestions? >n > Steve Spires > OpenVMS Systems Manager. > Yell Group >  >  > [Information] -- PostMaster:F > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beI > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hasj beenD > addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,
 distribute ore > use this transmission. >.J > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee is noteJ > intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received thisH > transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. >e > Thank you. >h >s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:04:00 GMT-- From: "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com>0 Subject: Secured FTP= Message-ID: <AEfV6.65966$DG1.10742237@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>s  H Is there a 3rd party FTP that runs between 2 VMS nodes over the internet6 that uses some sort of encryption to protect the data?  C I've thought about encrypting it on node a, then FTP to node b thenaI decrypting it, but I need this to be transparent to my users so that whencE they push the file from node a to node b, there does not have to be a.7 special routine to decrypt it (I hope that makes sense)     J I'm running VMS7.2-1 with the latest patched version of TCP/IP Services...   Dave davepampreen@home.comr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:40:37 +0100 . From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com>& Subject: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCXB Message-ID: <e3aV6.9280$6d5.1943201@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>  H Steve - in your session in London you stated that support for UCX 4.2 on# VMS7* would be terminating in July.a' This is indeed repeated on your slides.e  H I have checked the prior version support site for this product and it is; marked as 'no date defined' for the termination of support.nI Did you simply mean that it was moving to prior version or is the supporti site wrong?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:37:05 GMT,2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)* Subject: Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX3 Message-ID: <lKbV6.1327$fi2.37938@news.cpqcorp.net>-  s In article <e3aV6.9280$6d5.1943201@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> writes:r  I :I have checked the prior version support site for this product and it is < :marked as 'no date defined' for the termination of support.J :Did you simply mean that it was moving to prior version or is the support :site wrong?  K   My understanding (delusion? :-) is that the information that I presented eG   is correct, and that TCP/IP Services V4.2 Prior Version Support (PVS)pF   continues on older OpenVMS releases but that it ends on OpenVMS V7.*   in the near future.v  H   I have passed along a question to the TCP/IP Services team, asking forJ   clarification -- the information I presented was acquired directly from @   the TCP/IP Services team, so I am not sure what happened here.  9   TCP/IP Services V5.1 (with ECO) is the current release.s  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:59:36 -0700b! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comr Subject: Re: The future of VMSD Message-ID: <OFC488A062.E41A0AD3-ON88256A68.0062320F@foundation.com>  H True. I write OO in C all the time. The trick is to write it inside out,J but enforce the philosophy. I use a "black box" void pointer, which has toI be passed between functions. Philosophically, this is the instance of theoC class. Only within the functions is is viewable as a pointer to thesJ instance's data, and the only way into the data from outside is by callingK a subset of the functions which are philosophically get/set methods. And sos on.e  I It can also be done in BASIC, but you have to break the parameter passingS rules to be thorough about it.   Shanen          = Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 06/09/2001 05:31:40 AMi  5 Please respond to Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>m   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comm cc:'   Subject:  Re: The future of VMSa    " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: >eJ > It's possible in any language, just not always worth it. I remember onceI > doing recursion in a language that didn't handle local arguments (and I3K > wish I could remember which one, now. It was easily twelve years ago.). I I > had to save and restore the values for each layer of recursion manually - > across calls in my own stacks. Never again.l >o > Shanea   :-)o  > This reminds me to the essay by Bjarne Stroustroup (spelling?)3 about oo and C++ which came with the first AT&T C++r< pre-compilers. He stated that you could programm oo in every@ language but some languages only make it possible whereas others support it.a  9 I read a FORTRAN manual at that time which contained thisv& statement about missing recursiveness.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 14:55:07 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: The future of VMS3 Message-ID: <N0UemL6nKHA1@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  ` In article <9g2hlv$2nct$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >  > The Unix Operating System??C >    In three lines:6  N integer i(5) /x'20737562', x'6F727265', x'63202c72', x'2065726f', x'706d7564'/ write (*,'(x,5a4)') i  end   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupME                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:23:07 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t Subject: Re: The future of VMS0 Message-ID: <009FD612.E12B0753@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <N0UemL6nKHA1@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ea >In article <9g2hlv$2nct$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >> h >> The Unix Operating System?? >>   >v >In three lines: >rO >integer i(5) /x'20737562', x'6F727265', x'63202c72', x'2065726f', x'706d7564'/u >write (*,'(x,5a4)') i >end    C For those without a fortran compiler or don't know the ASCII table:-  N integer i(5) /x'20737562', x'6F727265', x'63202c72', x'2065726f', x'706d7564'/L                    s u b      o r r e      c   , r        e r o      p m u d     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:29:56 -0500O1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u Subject: Re: The future of VMS' Message-ID: <3B251C34.D1F65E9B@fsi.net>.   Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <9g2hlv$2nct$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >b > > The Unix Operating System??s > >f >  > In three lines:  > P > integer i(5) /x'20737562', x'6F727265', x'63202c72', x'2065726f', x'706d7564'/ > write (*,'(x,5a4)') i  > end   E My "favorite" was walking into work in the morning and seeing this one the UN*X system's console:  % panic: kernel memory management errorh
 system halted.   -- 4 David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:21:50 +0100t. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMSB Message-ID: <DN9V6.9197$6d5.1923812@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>  C Christof Brass wrote in message <3B23F276.107CA5D1@infopuls.com>...m	 >> [snip]0 >>4 >> I obviously did not put my points clearly enough.= >> Cache, (the new mumps) is fully OO (if you want it to be). A >> As far as I know all of the standard OO features are included. K >> I am suprised that you did not pick this up from the Web site but I havet; >> not had a good look around since it has been redesigned.- > @ >Of course Cach is oo. This is obvious from their examples. But@ >the language you use has to support this technique also, hasn't >it?    E The language CacheObjectScript (formally known as mumps - but better)r supports the oo paradym. Am I missing something?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:10:24 -0400y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1106011410240001@user-2ive6an.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:    E > Another idea I had was to have a second and paralel project to takehC > some Opensource Unix Tool, say pdksh, and rewrite it in something : > like Ada.  This offers a number of possible data points.; >   1.  Will it be easier to do than merely porting the C??y  F Good C is likely easier to port to VMS than to rewrite in Ada and thenG port to VMS.  While Ada is very portable, any software with a lot of OShI dependencies will take extra work.  That extra work is probably about thee same for C and Ada.r  / Horrible C might best be thrown out, not fixed.   D As a first guess, a C application where the OS depencencies are wellJ isolated is probably best ported to VMS as C.  If the OS-specific stuff isJ tangled throughout the code, a rewrite might be easier.  In that case, Ada is probably less work than C.L  A >   2.  Will it offer a stabler program while maintaining all the.& >       functionality of the original.  C With a decent level of Ada skill, they should end up with a better,fI stabler program if they use Ada.  A number of studies have shown that Adal% makes for better software on average.h  D >   3.  Will it result in a program that is easier to understand and6 >       therefore easier to maintain, modify and port.  J I think the concensus is yes, Ada programs are more understandable.  There are those who disagree.s  B > While we no longer use Ada for teaching at the lowere levels, atC > least this years and next years seniors should have gone through o4 > the classes that used Ada extensively.  Comments??  C The students would be better off for a chance to use Ada in a largehE project.  That's where Ada really shines.  A 1-semester project isn't1F really "large" by Ada standards, but it's a lot bigger than a bunch of classroom problems.o  nF > This project is definitely moving forward and I see no reason why itG > should not come about.  All that still needs to be determined is whatCF > precisely we should try and get out of it.  And can it become a foot> > in the door, as it were, for OpenVMS and the academic world.  J Didn't you say you have some Vax systems available for these projects?  DoJ you have some alphas as well?  Ada 95 isn't ported to Vaxes, AFAIK.  For aG Vax-only student project, I'm not sure I'd recommend using Ada 83 these  days.U  E There's another possible project:  port GNAT to OpenVMS VAX.  Do your % students have an compiler experience?E   -- A Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comC   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 14:23:52 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)sB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <K77VNJy4k0cc@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  G > People here do realize that RPM is merely another layer of complexity.* > wrapped around the Unix CPIO program??    G > I have had it suggested that an off-shoot of this could be a graduatedG > level thesis project spcifically targeting defining what is needed toeH > port software int his manner and possible including the development ofF > an abstraction layer to handle the OS level differences.  Comments??  ? I do not feel optimistic about any code to make porting easier,e? except for something as complex as the DII-COE effort.  Writtenl? guidance based on experience, however, would be quite useful. I-A think a code effort would be just another layer of complexity :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:43:21 -0700 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)D Message-ID: <OF023F32B9.501F7BB7-ON88256A68.0066B463@foundation.com>  K I'd like to see a follow up to the porting project, where the students have-E to work out and document how to write code so that it's easy to port.a   Shanem          J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) on 06/11/2001 12:23:52 PM  E Please respond to Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)C   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come cc:a  C Subject:  Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)-    F In article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i  G > People here do realize that RPM is merely another layer of complexitya( > wrapped around the Unix CPIO program??  G > I have had it suggested that an off-shoot of this could be a graduate G > level thesis project spcifically targeting defining what is needed tonH > port software int his manner and possible including the development ofF > an abstraction layer to handle the OS level differences.  Comments??  ? I do not feel optimistic about any code to make porting easier,9? except for something as complex as the DII-COE effort.  Writtenc? guidance based on experience, however, would be quite useful. I A think a code effort would be just another layer of complexity :-)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:19:06 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>aB Subject: RE: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F33@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  L No time to comment on most of this right now, and I'm sure you'll get enoughJ attention from others on your paragraph about re-writing a tool in another0 language.  I wanted to make one comment, though.  F You might consider talking to the maintainers of current projects, andG giving more weight to those who'll actually accept modifications to thelL source tree for portability.  It may actually be even more of a "foot in theE door" to have VMS compatibility in some of these projects by default.h   Regards,   Chriso  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developero Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");E '0  u   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]  F > This project is definitely moving forward and I see no reason why itG > should not come about.  All that still needs to be determined is what F > precisely we should try and get out of it.  And can it become a foot> > in the door, as it were, for OpenVMS and the academic world.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 16:00:08 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <sTnEiWiaN$FC@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  , In article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,9 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.education (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > F > This project is definitely moving forward and I see no reason why itG > should not come about.  All that still needs to be determined is whataF > precisely we should try and get out of it.  And can it become a foot> > in the door, as it were, for OpenVMS and the academic world.    8 And I will recommend that you look at SAMBA for OpenVMS.  I SAMBA 2.0.6 is almost 100% bug and feature compatable with the UNIX port.mJ It can be upgraded to 2.0.9 with only a little work as it needs either the& fchmod() or fchown() function defined.  E I can also give you a head start on SAMBA 2.2.0, the current release. M This includes an MMS file that currently compiles and links it, and a commandiF file that does a reasonably good job at guessing what should be in the config.h file.  F It is currently (likely) non functional because it needs some routines0 implemented that are not currently in the C RTL.  J It also needs OpenVMS specific programming to overcome the calls to fork()= that both the server process and the test routines are using.-  K There is a good chance that the executables that I currently have for 2.2.0@' might actually do something functional.-  H I also can supply a roadmap for routines that are needed to get it 100 %K functional with the UNIX version, also for OpenVMS module replacements thatf can improve it's speed.e     -John' wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:36:57 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>" Subject: V7.3 backup "improvement"6 Message-ID: <1010611160635.17800A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  2 Speaking of C programmers who just don't get it...0 (The worst insult I can think of at the moment.)  A VAX VMS V7.3 has acquired the mis-feature (apparently originating ? in an F11X ECO on Alpha VMS V7.2-1), that the modification daterB of a directory gets changed pseudo randomly when files are createdA or deleted in the directory.  (The mod date gets changed whenevert0 the directory size (not allocation) is changed.)  > I reported this several months ago, both to Compaq support and> on this news group, but Compaq seemed unable to understand why@ this is a bug.  (Since a "Feature" is a documented bug, and this+ isn't documented, it is *NOT* a "feature".)i  C Since then, an article has appeared on the DIA support system, thatiE seems to indicated that Compaq support if not engineering does regard0A this as a bug, but their recommended workaround for the resulting)@ non-usefulness of incremental backups is to use "/NOINCREMENTAL"A on the BACKUP command, which of course presents its own problems.2       NOW THE BIG PRIZE!!d  C V7.3 has introduced a new bug - "/NOINCREMENTAL" is no longer validc1 when combined with "/SINCE=BACKUP"!  You now get:   ( $ backup/mod/sinc=backup/noincremental -1 du0:[john...]*.*;* du0:[0,0]t.bck/save/log/verifyt? %BACKUP-I-INVQUAL, qualifier /NOINCREMENTAL is ignored with the?    /SINCE=BACKUP operation* %BACKUP-S-COPIED, copied DU0:[JOHN]AA.AA;1 ...d7 (and proceeds to backup all the files in my directory.)s    9 $ HELP/MESSAGE INVQUAL says the same thing in more words.h  = Supposedly this is to protect you from the exact same restores< problems that the original change in behaviour of BACKUP was< made for, and that /NOINCREMENTAL was created to work around, because the cure was worse than the disease.   Historical sequence:  8 1) Discover rare pathalogical sequence that makes BACKUP5 restores involving image plus incremental backups nott function properly.  9 2) Change BACKUP's /MOD/SINCE=BACKUP to save far too manyS& files in order to work around problem.  9 3) In response to customer complaints about the enourmous-7 size of incremental backups (rendering them essentiallyr9 useless, since they shortly are no faster than full image-: backups and in some cases (disks with aliased directories)8 are actually slower than image backups), invent a series7 of hacks to restore the prior behaviour, culminating ind /NOINCREMENTAL.e  9 4) Introduce a new bug, essentially guaranteeing that alld6 incremental backups will be full-volume backups, never: documenting the new behaviour or justifying it in any way.  : 5) Disable the use of "/NOINCREMENTAL" in the only context where it was useful.   --   John Santost Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:27:21 GMTs6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net># Subject: Re: Virtual Memory problemaD Message-ID: <ZIaV6.4249$eZ6.600131@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  I I see you found GBLPAGES and GBLPAGFIL, see GBLSECTIONS as well.  You canaK get an idea of what's going on with $ INSTALL LIST /GLOB/SUMM and comparing. against your sysgen params.h  L F$GETJPI is very useful in getting more detailed info on what your processesK are doing, although the results may not be accurrate when the process rollsn, over.  See the DCL dictionary for arguments.   --   Andy Bustamanter( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      4 "Jan Smit" <jboerkamp@nospam.hr.nl> wrote in message+ news:9fid4d$1dq$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net...c >s  > We have the following problem: > 4 > We want to share memory between several processes.6 > To achieve this, we use PPL$- and LIB$*_VM routines.D > It works fine when the shared memory does not exceed the (approx.)	 6,900,000n > bytes limit.: > When we want use more shared memory, we get the message: "%LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, > insufficient virual memory". >hD > Till now, we are not successfull in increasing the above limit (of	 6,900,000- > bytes)...a > H > We have followed the hints we get from "$ HELP/MESS %lib-f-insvirmem": > - We have done the following: 4 > - Increased in AUTHORIZE the PGFLQUE  to 150,000 ,; > - Increased the system paging files  to 999936 (blocks) ,c >o
 > Additional:n/ > - Increased in AUTHORIZE the WSQUO  to 15000,?7 > - Increased in SYSGEN the WSMAX  to 350000 (pagelets)x >7! > We have not done the following:'L > - Not increased the physical memory, beceause we think that does not solve > the problem.L > - Not adjusted the SYSGEN-parameter: VIRTUALPAGECNT because this parameter > has become obsolete. >S > Our question is:I > Which (AUTHORIZE or SYSGEN) parameter(s) must we adjust to increase the.$ > Virtualmemory-size of the process?I > (The most obvious parameter (VIRTUALPAGECNT) has become obsolete......)S >H > Additonal information:+ > Hardware: COMPAQ AlphaServer DS10 466 MHzS" > Operating system: OpenVMS v7.1-2 > Memory: 512 Mb > Swapfile: 71936 blocks > Pagefile: 999936 blockso >e4 > Programming language application: PASCAL (v5.6-59) >9 >l >n >3   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:22:57 -0400>- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>I+ Subject: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime'4 Message-ID: <NU8V6.248147$Z2.2855518@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  F I find that if I am on http://www.openvms.compaq.com/portal/index.html= and hit the refresh key to re-authenticate myself through our6C firewall, the firewall tells me that I am going to stats.klsoft.comsF before redisplaying the VMS page. I went to stats.klsoft.com and found" myself on www.keylimesoftware.com.  C This company says they collect information about how I am using theaA website. The corporate brochure says "well show you what theyre-. doing today and through a lifetime of visits."  D I see that Compaq is listed as one of their customers. At the bottomB of the VMS index page I found a line <script language="JavaScript"> src="/keylime.js"></script>. From this I gather that Compaq isF tracking what I am doing on their website. I tried searching Compaq toC see if they have any statements on their pages to tell me that they B are tracking me and what they are doing with that information, butD searching on Compaq's search page for KEYLIME resulted in 7008 pages	 returned.n  F A visit to Compaq's Privacy page tells me that Compaq uses third partyD companies to track the use of their site. They have a line that saysE "If you would like to prevent our online media and research companiesf= from collecting this information, you will need to visit each.D company's Web site and request that you be removed from its system,"B but no pointers to these companies to tell me who I have to remove myself from.  F If anyone else is concerned by this then www.keylimesoftware.com has a> privacy page and an option to let you opt out of their spying.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:38:28 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>/ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime@; Message-ID: <U69V6.6849$Tc.2174543@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>s  8 "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message. news:NU8V6.248147$Z2.2855518@nnrp1.uunet.ca... <snip> >eH > A visit to Compaq's Privacy page tells me that Compaq uses third partyF > companies to track the use of their site. They have a line that saysG > "If you would like to prevent our online media and research companies ? > from collecting this information, you will need to visit eachiF > company's Web site and request that you be removed from its system,"D > but no pointers to these companies to tell me who I have to remove > myself from. >lH > If anyone else is concerned by this then www.keylimesoftware.com has a@ > privacy page and an option to let you opt out of their spying. >1  E And it is easily done! Would that it was so easy to opt out of AcxiomjF Corporation's tracking... if you want to opt out, they send you a veryJ detailed paper form that you must fill out and return. Not quite as bad as+ an IRS Form 1040, but daunting nonetheless.@   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:53:54 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>T/ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLimei, Message-ID: <3B2521CA.C894EE60@videotron.ca>   Peter Weaver wrote:i > H > I find that if I am on http://www.openvms.compaq.com/portal/index.html > and hit the refresh key F > I see that Compaq is listed as one of their customers. At the bottomD > of the VMS index page I found a line <script language="JavaScript" > src="/keylime.js"></script>.  K First time you access the page, the HTML does not contain the reference trog? keylime.js, but when you reload the page, the code contains it.d  N What a waste of resources to dynamically generate the output of the web server to serve front pages.e/ Can't they just look at their web server logs ?   G Companies should focus on serving customers and making usable web sitesnM instead of trying to mer ever more complex web sites that tracks your habits.A   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 15:58:40 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o@ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime (and JavaScript)3 Message-ID: <Igoop9KBYzl4@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  d In article <NU8V6.248147$Z2.2855518@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:H > I find that if I am on http://www.openvms.compaq.com/portal/index.html? > and hit the refresh key to re-authenticate myself through oureE > firewall, the firewall tells me that I am going to stats.klsoft.comeH > before redisplaying the VMS page. I went to stats.klsoft.com and found$ > myself on www.keylimesoftware.com. > E > This company says they collect information about how I am using the C > website. The corporate brochure says "well show you what theyreo0 > doing today and through a lifetime of visits." > F > I see that Compaq is listed as one of their customers. At the bottomD > of the VMS index page I found a line <script language="JavaScript"@ > src="/keylime.js"></script>. From this I gather that Compaq is, > tracking what I am doing on their website.  C But it should only be tracking those who have JavaScript enabled in @ their browser.  Perhaps _that_ is why www.compaqworkinggroup.orgC requires JavaScript be enabled to view results -- they are shilling D for Big Brother, figuring you will not bother to turn it off again..   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:22:35 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B250C69.BA7232C8@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote::@ > Yes I know you can't blame individual events on global warmingD > directly but I guess some soggy oil industry execs are giving it a  > little bit more thought today.  M Back in the ice storm of 1998 in Montreal, Hydro Qubec executives were quicksH to pont out that such amounts of freezing rain were "once in a lifetime"W events and that its network had not been designed to widthstands this type of disaster.e  H The next day, some reporter during the daily newsconference came up withM statistics showing that such amounts of freezing precipitation had occured iniE eastern canada many times in the last 5 years, except usually in lesseK populated areas, thus little notice of the damage. The Hydro Qubec VP said  that he would look into it..  K The next day, the HQ Vp (I think it may have been the president) brought uphK the subject that was raised by the reporter the day before and acknowledged-M that Hydro's weather predictions to define how strongly the cabling needed tomM be were based on data spanning a few decades, but in looking back in the lastoN 5 years, Hydro folks did notice a significant change in weather patterns. (eg:K Hydro had acknowledged the reporter had brought up a valid point. The Hydro L president said that because of this Hydro would probably have to rethink itsL standards for its distribution network (how strong the cables and poles have to be).2  G When the head of a major power utility in North America with one of thenN world's longest distribution network acknowledges that there have been weatherL pattern changes recently and that the utility would have to spend more moneyM to streghten the hydro lines, how much more do you need as proof that it willrN cost mega money for the economy to adapt to the even more serious changes that might be coming ?   N If temperature rises by just a couple fo degrees in south/central/western USA,G will they have sufficient amounts of water to continue to lead the sames lifestyle as they do now ?  M Also on CNN this morning, I saw a piece of information that said that world'seL oceans had risen 4-6 inches in the last decade or so. Not sure where it came+ from or whether it is authoritative or not.p   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2001 22:15:41 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.eduh2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9g3fud$mn1$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>-  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:t2 >|> Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  L >|> >It is not the average that matters. Local conditions and ocean currents >|> >have the dominant effect. >|> M >|> The irony is that one possible outcome is that the big Antartic ice shelfeG >|> will melt catastrophically because of global warming, bringing some G >|> sigificant flooding, but then all that cold water being dumped into * >|> the oceans will then cause an ice age. >pC >According to the experts on ABC last night the oceans have alreadyf6 >risen 300-600 feet since the end of the last ice-age   < This is supposed to be a surprise?  Anybody else around here' know what the Siberian land bridge was?u  
 >and that all < >happened before the first SUV rolled off the assembly line.   And the relevancy of this is?r  B That we should just keep pumping out greenhouse gasses and to hell, with the environment and our coastal cities?  ; Look at the temperture/gas graphs over the last 400k years,h< the temperature is irregular but there are a number of localE maxima that are all at about the same temperature/gas concentrations,s' and we are at or near that level today.   > >And then we have the Piri Ries' Map which shows an Antarctic ! >continent totally devoid of ice.    And the relevancy of this is?    Robert   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2001 22:18:35 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edut2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9g3g3r$mn1$2@husk.cso.niu.edu>   / "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:tL >When a **FLOATING** ice-shelf melts, there is **NO** change in the level of	 >the sea.v  E When it melts and pulls the on-shore ice sheet into the ocean to meltt it does.  ' >> system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:e3 >> > Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:o7 >> > >jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:i >>M >> > >It is not the average that matters. Local conditions and ocean currents. >> > >have the dominant effect.c >> >N >> > The irony is that one possible outcome is that the big Antartic ice shelfH >> > will melt catastrophically because of global warming, bringing someH >> > sigificant flooding, but then all that cold water being dumped into+ >> > the oceans will then cause an ice age.k   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2001 22:21:13 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edul2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9g3g8p$mn1$3@husk.cso.niu.edu>e  5 Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> writes:c% >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:t1 >> Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: 5 >> >jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:   K >> >It is not the average that matters. Local conditions and ocean currentsi >> >have the dominant effect.o >>  L >> The irony is that one possible outcome is that the big Antartic ice shelfF >> will melt catastrophically because of global warming, bringing someF >> sigificant flooding, but then all that cold water being dumped into) >> the oceans will then cause an ice age.1 >6H >so, do us poms wait for the heatwave due to global warming or get ready> >for the mini-ice age due to the demise of the gulf stream...   ) <heh> yup, that is another possibility.  t  3 I do want to note that AFAIK both the ice age from )@ the melt of antartica and the interuption of the gulf stream areA possible circumstances we understand even less than we understandt climatics in general.    >Life sure is interesting.   Ain't that the truth.t   Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:45:32 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B25581B.50D8CEE6@videotron.ca>   someone wrote:N > >When a **FLOATING** ice-shelf melts, there is **NO** change in the level of > >the sea.u  N But a warmer ocean results in warmer temperatures, and that makes the ice/snowI on islands/continents melt more than they used to. And that water goes toaK oceans. And if warmed temperatures cause gaciers that are near the shore tooS calve more than mofore, then more ice is put into the oceans, raising their levels.rL  Don't think "arctic ocean", think: Greenland, Nunavut, Russia, Iceland. And think of Antarctica.  MA There is a lot of landmass there with very very thick ice sheets.u   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.323 ************************