1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 13 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 325       Contents:A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com , Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server Re: AMDS for V5.5-2? AMDS for V5.5-2? Re: AMDS for V5.5-2? Re: CD-RW on a VMS system. Re: CD-RW on a VMS system. Re: CD-RW on a VMS system. cms question Re: cms question Re: cms question RE: cms question RE: cms question RE: cms question Re: cms question RE: cms question Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars/ Compaq response to UK VMS distribution problems ) Compaq sponsor The Inquirer with VMS kit? - Re: Compaq sponsor The Inquirer with VMS kit? $ DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?( RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?( RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?3 Re: DECamds vs Availability Manager - Some Findings 2 Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS)2 Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS) Re: Disk Performance new Re: Disk Performance new! Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem < error message while copying a file frome one node to another@ Re: error message while copying a file frome one node to another Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size  Re: find files base on size < Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st Re: Hobbyist Licensing Re: Hobbyist Licensing Re: How to rewrite SLS in DCL  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing 1 Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster? 1 Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster?  Re: NCP counter question" Re: NCP to NCL command equivilants" Re: Need help with LIB$TABLE_PARSE" Re: Need help with LIB$TABLE_PARSE Re: No 7.3 yet Re: No 7.3 yet2 Re: No license is active for this software product. No license is active for this software product2 Re: No license is active for this software product2 Re: No license is active for this software product Re: NYSE' Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in California ' Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in California ' Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in California  Oracle and Sun / not Compaq  Re: OT - demise of ML770 OT - Perl Hacker OT: W2K bugs( Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale..., Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...* Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderable& Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderable* Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderable* Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderable Re: PCSI niggle   Press release - Digital networks& Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CD- Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. - Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.  Re: Secured FTP ! Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX ! Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX  Re: Streaming of multiple files  Re: Streaming of multiple files  Re: Streaming of multiple files & TCPIP V5.1 ECO1 - Dropping connections* Re: TCPIP V5.1 ECO1 - Dropping connections Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)  Unix equivalent of set verify ! Re: Unix equivalent of set verify ! Re: Unix equivalent of set verify ! Re: Unix equivalent of set verify  Re: V7.3 backup "improvement"  Re: V7.3 backup "improvement"  Re: Virtual Memory problem VMS5.1 and INIT  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT & Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime& Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime1 Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue 5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:44:22 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com; Message-ID: <W0pV6.1265$%f.1393173@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9g4rpl$btl$4@bob.news.rcn.net...   <snip>  ' > > I don't have a problem with forking I > >over the personal data the site collects (to me it doesn't rise to the  > level 9 > >of kitchen-sink detail), but apparently some folks do.  >  > A LOT of BUSINESSES mind.   K I would assume that you have filled out a profile. Which data elements were 2 personally offensive? Perhaps they can be removed. >  > > I > >The rationale for collecting the personal information is to aid in the L > >analysis of issues and votes, e.g. if a significant number of respondentsG > >are concerned about system reliability, it would be valuable to know 	 > whether / > >they were NSK, Tru64, VMS, or Windows users.  > A > But the strategy isn't gathering any useful data.  Compaq isn't A > ever going to find out why ex-customers became that way because > > the communication link (buying products) is gone.  JEEZ!!!!!* > This is the attitude that destroyed DEC.  A If you have a problem with the current approach and have a better L alternative, you are perfectly welcome to volunteer your time to the effort.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:09:00 GMT 6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun B Message-ID: <0qwV6.578$Zt6.61263@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  L The big thing I admire about IBM is that we haven't used their equipment forH almost 10 years, but their sales people still cold call, mail us product# news, try to schedule appointments.   C These people want our business in any way shape or form.  Hardware, J services, network security, anything they can  get take.  And they competeK internally with each other, no "private reserve for Proliant" restrictions.   I There are worse things that could happen to VMS than having IBM take over  and start marketing.     --   Andy Bustamante ( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:eaibit85jaieo8p4mgcfv3n7b93hr6le5b@4ax.com...6 > On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:47:27 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >  > > 9 > ><fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in message I > >news:OF625AE618.0173433C-ON03256A68.005E7C53@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... I > >> Sounds funny but last year IBM had an internet project in Brazil for 8 > >> a special customer and  they used Sun E-250  (!!!!)0 > >> And I think it is a tendency here for them. > >> > > I > >IBM will bid whatever they need to bid to win a deal. Some months ago, J > >Compaq and IBM were trying to win an account. Compaq bid a Himalaya NSKG > >system. They lost the bid to IBM, who bid a GS-Series system running  > >OpenVMS.  > >  > H > A former VMS system manager here now works for IBM as a VMS consultant > so I can quite believe that. >  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 02:16:41 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun + Message-ID: <3B255F69.718F46B@infopuls.com>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > 8 > <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageH > news:OFC5766EE7.C36BA950-ON03256A68.00685B63@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...I > > It is good to know .... If Sun or HP began to use OpenVMS servers.... ( > > IBM is not my favorite company ! ! ! > L > Actually, I think IBM represents the biggest long-term threat to CPQ rightC > now, especially with CPQ talking about "solution sales" and other G > Blue-tinted things. And watch out for WebSphere... a Trojan Horse for  > OpenVMS accounts!   4 Yes, IBM are the unbeatable player, at least wrt HW.< IBM have a termendous capacity in real high quality research competing with universities.? IBM have a very smart way to exhaust other countries like India ? by seeking for talented people and transferring them to the USA 0 or keeping them in their local IBM organisation.  > There are IBM research laboraties where even Nobel prices have been one (not only once).   : IBM have developed a new storage technique which is on the8 market now and will allow to have a disks with much more capacity than now.  ? The SW OTOH is a problem for IBM. WebSphere is a piece of shit, @ at least all people I know that worked with it told me that. And@ I know several Web sites implemented by IBM which are tremendous2 slow and also have a lot of service interruptions.  6 The services of IBM are also a real threat for Compaq.  @ I read that HP outperfomed Compaq in sales of Wintel boxes. Dell were even better.   7 To withstand IBM several major companies have to merge.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 12 Jun 01 08:11:14 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun + Message-ID: <9g4rsp$btl$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   , In article <3B24CA02.937B3FE6@mediaone.net>,-    Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> wrote:  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >>  C >> >How come DECUS USA didn't testify against Microsoft during the  
 anti-trust >> >trials ? >>  F >> Because that suit was a joke.  There were other sins that never gotC >> aired in the courts that didn't have anything to do DEC products % >> but not a peep about those either.  > H >IMO, the real joke was that the DoJ attacked M$ for restraint of trade,! >instead of restraint of quality.   ; Ptui.  That isn't the place or the method to get quality.      /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:49:40 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun 8 Message-ID: <eaibit85jaieo8p4mgcfv3n7b93hr6le5b@4ax.com>  4 On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:47:27 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   > 7 ><fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in message G >news:OF625AE618.0173433C-ON03256A68.005E7C53@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... G >> Sounds funny but last year IBM had an internet project in Brazil for 6 >> a special customer and  they used Sun E-250  (!!!!). >> And I think it is a tendency here for them. >> > G >IBM will bid whatever they need to bid to win a deal. Some months ago, H >Compaq and IBM were trying to win an account. Compaq bid a Himalaya NSKE >system. They lost the bid to IBM, who bid a GS-Series system running 	 >OpenVMS.  >   F A former VMS system manager here now works for IBM as a VMS consultant so I can quite believe that.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:27:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B26EBBA.DD8CBF74@videotron.ca>   Andy Bustamante wrote:K > There are worse things that could happen to VMS than having IBM take over  > and start marketing.  N I agree. In fact, if IBM were to buy Alpha and VMS from Compaq, it would do so0 with the intentions of maximising its potential.  K Compaq didn't buy Alpha and VMS, Compaq bought Digital's services division. N VMS and Alpha just came with it. But it is clear that Compaq didn't think thatN those had any value worth pursuing. Perhaps that attitude is changing a littleJ bit now. But Compaq's loyalty to Microsoft will always prevent Compaq from& maximising VMS and Alpha's potentials.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:17:54 +0100 , From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c*m># Subject: Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server 1 Message-ID: <9g5pq4$r1p$1@uranium.btinternet.com>    Hi Mike,  G Thanks for telling me how to turn off MIME, but curiously enough it was  already turned off?   K Maybe it was sending attachments that did it or maybe it was because one of L the attachments was a .HTM file? I certainly don't know but I can assure youH that it was unintentional. Anyway, I apologize for the transgression and. I'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again.  I If this mail comes out in mime then let me know because I can assure that  I'm not having a laugh.    Regards Richard Maher   = Michael D. Ober <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam> wrote in message + news:ee4V6.595$go5.52027@news.uswest.net... I > To turn off the MIME features of Outlook Express, click Tools, Options,  SendF > and select the Plain Text check box at the bottom.  Click OK.  It isF > considered bad form to post anything other than Plain Text except in Binary
 > Newsgroups.  > -- > Mike Ober. > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:lcedYQ9+9lfR@eisner.encompasserve.org... E > > In article <9g0clo$c2p$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, "Richard Maher"   > <maher_rj@hotmail.c*m> writes:2 > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > 1 > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0F1DF.7B8B4660 * > > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;: > > > boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0023_01C0F1DF.7B8B4660" > > >  > > > 1 > > > ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C0F1DF.7B8B4660  > > > Content-Type: text/plain;  > > > charset="iso-8859-1"1 > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  > > > 	 > > > Hi,  > > > E > > > Once again sorry if you don't get attachments coz that's pretty  much=20  > > > all there is.  > > # > > DON'T POST MIME to COMP.OS.VMS.  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:23:53 +0100 , From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c*m># Subject: Re: $QIO and TCP/IP server 3 Message-ID: <9g6169$1o9$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>    Hi,   H (Please post this reply to comp.os.vms. It may be of interest to someoneD other than yourself and is definitely more pertinent than the GlobalJ Warming, Land Rights for Gay Whales threads going on at the moment. I justI hope I don't take up too much bandwidth with another dodgy MIME message!)   : > Can you hook an read QIO with an AST to wake the process: > when a message arrives just like you do with a mailbox ?  ) Yes. For TCP/IP this is well documented:-   I http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73FINAL/6529/6529pro_020.html#readattn   C For DECnet, you can mimic this behaviour via a zero byte (len) $qio G io$_readvblk!io$m_multiple. (Unfortunately, unlike PhaseIV,  DECnet/OSI L wants to PROBE your buffer even though you told it ZERO bytes.) I don't knowJ how many people have thought of, or are using, this technique but there isL at least one other guy because he gave me the very useful tip of passing the/ IOSB address as the buffer address to the $qio.w  K The net result is, you can be reading/listening on thousands of connectionslJ but you've only had to allocate a few hundred buffers! This is yet anotherI reason why TIER3 is (IMHO) the fastest client/server middleware availablepH for VMS. But what does "speed" matter when most people are happy to sendH shit loads of dynamic SQL and meta-data around a network just as long as it's easy to develope :-(D  
 Good-Luck.   Regards Richard Maher.   ----- Original Message ----- From: <Someone>  To: <maher_rj@hotmail.com># Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:05 PMe* Subject: Your comments on TCPIP socket QIO      B I have read with attention your reply in the comp.os.vms newsgroupL whre you suggest ways to make a multi socket server. The part that got me to write to you follows:   H 5) TCP/IP has io$m_readattn. With DECnet you have to do zero byte reads.  B Could you describe more fully what you mean ? Can you hook an readK QIO with an AST to wake the process when a message arrives just like you doiD with a mailbox ? I have VAX VMS 6.2, Multinet TCPIP V4.0 in Fortran.   Thanks in advance.  
 Joe Bloggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:10:39 -0400 0 From: "Steve DiPirro" <Steve.DiPirro@compaq.com> Subject: Re: AMDS for V5.5-2? 3 Message-ID: <eRsV6.1392$fi2.39781@news.cpqcorp.net>   E VMS V5.5-2 is not officially supported by AM/AMDS. So there's no datalH collector/driver or data collection programs for V5.5-2 shipped with theI kit. We have built such drivers and data collection programs in the past,SE but it would require a fair amount of work now to provide any kind oftJ support for V5.5-2. You'd need more than just the driver. The client would+ need the data collection program libraries.   
 Steve DiPirro   < "Chris Scheers" <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote in message- news:3B25A7D9.DC7EC934@applied-synergy.com...u) > Is there an AMDS driver for VMS V5.5-2?n > I > -----------------------------------------------------------------------n& > Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. >uD > Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com >   Fax: 817-237-3074r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:25:45 -0500h/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>T Subject: AMDS for V5.5-2? 3 Message-ID: <3B25A7D9.DC7EC934@applied-synergy.com>t  ' Is there an AMDS driver for VMS V5.5-2?   G -----------------------------------------------------------------------o$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com     Fax: 817-237-3074f   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 10:17:01 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)  Subject: Re: AMDS for V5.5-2?s3 Message-ID: <V99gPdO1y5As@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  3 In article <3B25A7D9.DC7EC934@applied-synergy.com>,b5 Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.company> writes:V) > Is there an AMDS driver for VMS V5.5-2?V   Yes.     Q: Where is the kit?  E IIRC: It is on the OpenVMS 5.5-2 CD-ROM, and possibly the ones on therC OpenVMS 6.0/6.1/6.2 are also usuable.  This is reaching quite a bitr back in my memory though.t    / Q: What license key is required to activate it?   I It needs either a VAXCLUSTER license key or an AMDS specific license key.e    ; Q: Will it work with the current version of AMDS collector?    No.     J Q: If it does not work with the current version of the AMDS collector, how do you display the values?  F You must run the older version of the collector on an older version ofC OpenVMS.  You can redirect the graphical user interface to any X-11t capable device.o     -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlym   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:01:54 +0100 ; From: "Leigh G. Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk>o# Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.u/ Message-ID: <9g5ove$89a$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>u  G I won't go into details at the moment - I'll post here when this is allo working.  J The Plextor is working (I think) under OpenVMS 6.2 on a VAXstation 4000/60 and CDRECORD 1.8a9.   I I've used a physical disk and the LD driver to create the container filesRJ and burnt these but an RRDnn type device does not recognise any disk beingH in the drive and will not mount in any format I try. A PC (NT 4) doesn'tK recognise anything on the disk and spits it out again. Is it a problem with L the container file or the burning process? Do I have to do anything with the% container files like SET FILE/ATTRIB?M  K CDRECORD -TOC shows something on the disk and likewise for an audio disk soc! I assume my disks are burning OK.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:13:40 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) # Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.C0 Message-ID: <009FD6DA.B9E8B9C5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  m In article <9g5ove$89a$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Leigh G. Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> writes:cH >I won't go into details at the moment - I'll post here when this is all	 >working.  > K >The Plextor is working (I think) under OpenVMS 6.2 on a VAXstation 4000/60  >and CDRECORD 1.8a9. > J >I've used a physical disk and the LD driver to create the container filesK >and burnt these but an RRDnn type device does not recognise any disk beingC  J RRDnn?  Which RRD?  The older RRDs (42, 43 and even 45) may not see enoughJ reflected light from the particular brand of CD-R media you are using.  ItJ is even worse if you are using a CD-RW.  The technology of CD-RW recording/ media will require that you have a newer CDrom.-  I >in the drive and will not mount in any format I try. A PC (NT 4) doesn't4L >recognise anything on the disk and spits it out again. Is it a problem withM >the container file or the burning process? Do I have to do anything with the6& >container files like SET FILE/ATTRIB? > L >CDRECORD -TOC shows something on the disk and likewise for an audio disk so" >I assume my disks are burning OK.  I OK.  So make an ISO9660 CD and see if it can be read in the PeeCee.  That'K shoudl rule out the recording side of the equation.  However, if you can dokH a -TOC on the media you've just burned, I suspect your problem is simply6 that the RRD you have cannot read the reflected light.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMh            fO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:56:47 -0700 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com # Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.sD Message-ID: <OF2EB8D4D0.EF21BC07-ON88256A69.006D387E@foundation.com>  J You might want to try a different coloured CD-R blank. If you've got gold,G try silver-blue, for example. That might help, if the RRD is capable ofi reading CD-R's at all.  F I heard once that it was around the era of the 4x CD that CD-R supportJ started being put into readers, and I think it was 8x or higher for CD-RW,' so if it's a 2x or a 4x you may be SOL.-  - I now need treatment for acronymitis..... ;-)A   Shanem          E system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) on 06/12/2001a 12:13:40 PMe  I Please respond to system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comw cc:e  $ Subject:  Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.    A In article <9g5ove$89a$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Leigh G. Bowden"r+ <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> writes:wH >I won't go into details at the moment - I'll post here when this is all	 >working.n >iK >The Plextor is working (I think) under OpenVMS 6.2 on a VAXstation 4000/60v >and CDRECORD 1.8a9. > J >I've used a physical disk and the LD driver to create the container filesK >and burnt these but an RRDnn type device does not recognise any disk beinge  J RRDnn?  Which RRD?  The older RRDs (42, 43 and even 45) may not see enoughJ reflected light from the particular brand of CD-R media you are using.  ItJ is even worse if you are using a CD-RW.  The technology of CD-RW recording/ media will require that you have a newer CDrom.c  I >in the drive and will not mount in any format I try. A PC (NT 4) doesn'tbG >recognise anything on the disk and spits it out again. Is it a probleme withI >the container file or the burning process? Do I have to do anything with) the>& >container files like SET FILE/ATTRIB? >.I >CDRECORD -TOC shows something on the disk and likewise for an audio disk  so" >I assume my disks are burning OK.  I OK.  So make an ISO9660 CD and see if it can be read in the PeeCee.  ThatdK shoudl rule out the recording side of the equation.  However, if you can domH a -TOC on the media you've just burned, I suspect your problem is simply6 that the RRD you have cannot read the reflected light.   --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  I city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after  them.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:12:02 -0700f! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: cms questions9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGENFCLAA.tom@kednos.com>m  K I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP, which share a. number of common files.o   On AXP the build  script does a    $ cms fetch file  7 and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I wanta  $ on the VAX, however, the script does   $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7h  < and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26.  > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it?   TIAB Tome   ------------------------------   Date: 12 JUN 2001 19:39:40 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>e Subject: Re: cms question 2 Message-ID: <12JUN01.19394096@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  " Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:M > I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP, which share an > number of common files.e >   ! > On AXP the build  script does aa >  s > $ cms fetch file >   9 > and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I want  >   & > on the VAX, however, the script does >  m > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7o >  t> > and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26. >   @ > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it?  E /gen can take either a (relative) generation numer or a class name as H its argument.  In this case I'd guess that you have a class "V3.7" whichH includes generation 22.  If you omit the /gen you'll get the most recent. generation, which appears to be generation 26.   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:53:33 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)w Subject: Re: cms questionw3 Message-ID: <3taDiDd6FW3q@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGENFCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:h   > $ cms fetch file  E This says fetch the latest generation in the main line (no variants).p   > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7   D The says fetch the generation which is entered into group "V3.7".  IF suspect this group was created to record what was delivered as version "3.7".  G You need to look into why the first command executes on the VAX and thefG second one on the Alpha.  Are you using MMS?  Are the descrip.mms files0	 the same?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupyE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:48:46 -0700A! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>. Subject: RE: cms questiont9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAENICLAA.tom@kednos.com>i   > -----Original Message-----I > From: Dave Greenwood [mailto:greenwoodde@fed.ornl.gov]On Behalf Of Davew > Greenwoodv' > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:40 PMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come > Subject: Re: cms questionC >a >i$ > Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:A > > I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP,  > which share as > > number of common files.r > >a# > > On AXP the build  script does al > >t > > $ cms fetch file > >-; > > and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I want0 > >r( > > on the VAX, however, the script does > >u > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7  > >r@ > > and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26. > >aB > > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it? >vG > /gen can take either a (relative) generation numer or a class name asrJ > its argument.  In this case I'd guess that you have a class "V3.7" whichJ > includes generation 22.  If you omit the /gen you'll get the most recent0 > generation, which appears to be generation 26.  C I know this, but I can't change that.  What do I have to do to maken $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7p  return generation 26 and not 22.  K If I try to reserve from this class I get generation 22 as well, of course, E but when I try to do a replace it tells me that generation 23 already-> exists.  In other words, i need to bring this class into sync. >m > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVrJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself >E   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:04:53 -0700g! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>t Subject: RE: cms questiont9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENJCLAA.tom@kednos.com>   L no they aren't the same, class was used on the VAX but not AXP, and I am notL about to make those changes.  I think that I somehow need to do a CMS INSERT  I This brings up another issue, if I modify a file common to both, how do I  get that in to/ CMS so that it is visible to both environments?m   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]& > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:54 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: cms questionc >o >t? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGENFCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomt! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:n >i > > $ cms fetch file >-G > This says fetch the latest generation in the main line (no variants).m >r > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7f >iF > The says fetch the generation which is entered into group "V3.7".  IH > suspect this group was created to record what was delivered as version > "3.7". >tI > You need to look into why the first command executes on the VAX and the7I > second one on the Alpha.  Are you using MMS?  Are the descrip.mms files_ > the same?0 >_H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation8? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group G >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:11:36 -0700o! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com- Subject: RE: cms questioneD Message-ID: <OF0D201A18.42967050-ON88256A69.006E2FB6@foundation.com>  I If "V3.7" is indeed a class, which you can test with CMS SHOW CLASS V3.7,l5 then the following command is probably what you need:e  R          INSERT GENERATION    file   V3.7   "meaningful comment"    /GENERATION=26  H This should put generation 26 of "file" in the V3.7 class. Please double= check me using help though, for paranoia and practice's sake.m   Shanei          5 Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> on 06/12/2001 12:48:46 PMQ  - Please respond to Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>a   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh cc:i   Subject:  RE: cms question         > -----Original Message-----I > From: Dave Greenwood [mailto:greenwoodde@fed.ornl.gov]On Behalf Of Davet > Greenwoodi' > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:40 PMi > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come > Subject: Re: cms questione >  >C$ > Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:A > > I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP,a > which share a  > > number of common files.  > > # > > On AXP the build  script does a  > >m > > $ cms fetch file > >s; > > and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I want  > >e( > > on the VAX, however, the script does > >o > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7e > > @ > > and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26. > >TB > > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it? >.G > /gen can take either a (relative) generation numer or a class name asaJ > its argument.  In this case I'd guess that you have a class "V3.7" whichJ > includes generation 22.  If you omit the /gen you'll get the most recent0 > generation, which appears to be generation 26.  C I know this, but I can't change that.  What do I have to do to makeo $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7a  return generation 26 and not 22.  K If I try to reserve from this class I get generation 22 as well, of course,eE but when I try to do a replace it tells me that generation 23 alreadym> exists.  In other words, i need to bring this class into sync. >  > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVrJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:19:32 -0400 (EDT)-/ From: Dave Greenwood <GREENWOODDE@FED.ORNL.GOV>1 Subject: Re: cms questione- Message-ID: <01K4OOU07GO28Y4ZEW@FED.ORNL.GOV>:  " Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote: > Dave Greenwood wrote:c& > > Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:C > > > I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP,a > > which share aa > > > number of common files.  > > > % > > > On AXP the build  script does at > > >g > > > $ cms fetch file > > >d= > > > and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I wantp > > > * > > > on the VAX, however, the script does > > >l! > > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7n > > >mB > > > and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26. > > >mD > > > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it? > >eI > > /gen can take either a (relative) generation numer or a class name as-L > > its argument.  In this case I'd guess that you have a class "V3.7" whichL > > includes generation 22.  If you omit the /gen you'll get the most recent2 > > generation, which appears to be generation 26. > E > I know this, but I can't change that.  What do I have to do to makep > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7D" > return generation 26 and not 22. > M > If I try to reserve from this class I get generation 22 as well, of course,-G > but when I try to do a replace it tells me that generation 23 alreadyi@ > exists.  In other words, i need to bring this class into sync.  B I misunderstood your question.  I think the following should work:     CMS> REMOVE GEN file V3.7e"   CMS> INSERT GEN file/GEN=26 V3.7   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVsH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:27:00 -0700y! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>e Subject: RE: cms question 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICENLCLAA.tom@kednos.com>2  I Thanks, Dave that did it.  CMS syntax is 'interesting', gen can mean both  generation and class     > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Dave Greenwood [mailto:GREENWOODDE@FED.ORNL.GOV]& > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:20 PM > To: tom@kednos.com > Cc: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt > Subject: Re: cms questionn >  >S$ > Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote: > > Dave Greenwood wrote: ( > > > Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:E > > > > I have two different builds, one on VAX and the other on AXP,  > > > which share af > > > > number of common files.g > > > >u' > > > > On AXP the build  script does ae > > > >J > > > > $ cms fetch file > > > >O? > > > > and this returns a generation, 26, which is what I wantu > > > >:, > > > > on the VAX, however, the script does > > > >a# > > > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7W > > > > D > > > > and this returns generation 22.  I would like this to be 26. > > > >eF > > > > Can someone enlighten me?  /gen isn't really generation is it? > > > K > > > /gen can take either a (relative) generation numer or a class name as1A > > > its argument.  In this case I'd guess that you have a class  > "V3.7" whichB > > > includes generation 22.  If you omit the /gen you'll get the
 > most recente4 > > > generation, which appears to be generation 26. > >dG > > I know this, but I can't change that.  What do I have to do to makeo > > $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7 $ > > return generation 26 and not 22. > >n> > > If I try to reserve from this class I get generation 22 as > well, of course,I > > but when I try to do a replace it tells me that generation 23 alreadynB > > exists.  In other words, i need to bring this class into sync. >3D > I misunderstood your question.  I think the following should work: >  >   CMS> REMOVE GEN file V3.7t$ >   CMS> INSERT GEN file/GEN=26 V3.7 >S > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVwJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself >-   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 14:55:09 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warss, Message-ID: <9g5agd$bre@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  o In article <PwaU6.804$Tc.94379@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  >?9 >"John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in messagee >news:sb20af9a.077@aaas.org...& >Did everyone catch this announcement? >s2 >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/19554.html >fE >Yeah, and it's not particularly surprising. Better to concentrate oniI >high-margin stuff like Alphas. And Himalayas. And iPAQs (which yield farrL >better margins than do peecees). And services. Let Dell and Gateway duke itC >out in a saturated market characterized by further margin decline.t  G Margins may be low but Dell is still making a profit selling PCs.  OncemH Dell is done clearing out the weaker PC players with this price war theyE will then own both the PC hardware and service markets.  Does anybodyiJ think that companies are going to buy their x86 servers from Dell and thenD turn to Compaq for service?  After a year or two of blood bath,  theJ one or two remaining players (and if it's one, you _know_ it will be Dell)L will raise the prices to the point just below where it would tempt others to get back into the market.  f  G The worst part of the Q not even trying to compete is that it means the G company will stay fat and slow.  So when Dell is done mopping up the PC4E market and turns its sights to the big iron, the Q will still be justMB sitting there slow and stupid, like an old moose blinking into the! headlights of the oncoming semi. r  I Come to think of it, consider what happens if Dell manages to drive the QeK out of the PC market through perfectly legal competitive means. Wouldn't it C eliminate many of the antitrust issues which would otherwise be an tA impediment to Dell's buying the Q for it's enterprise divisions? o   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:34:45 +0100L% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>y8 Subject: Compaq response to UK VMS distribution problems8 Message-ID: <jutbit4qh4uk79g22jjvd542bjgdqb3u7u@4ax.com>  E I've just had a formal letter from Compaq answering some questions wevB had regarding our maintenance contract. In summary we lost severalD items off of our contract during the VAX to Alpha transition because? of mistakes made by CSF in the UK. Previously we went direct to D DEC/Compaq but contract administration in Scotland was outsourced to CSF a year or so ago.r  ? When we tried to put right one of the problems (no consolidatedg< distributions) we were told by CSF that the VMS consolidatedA distribution service was no longer available from Compaq. PerhapstE unsurprisingly many people did not believe this and suggested CSF hadd screwed up again.t   Here is what Compaq said:h  = "!t is with regret that the part numbers for the consolidatedtA distribution services were temporarily deactive on our UK pricingC> systems between 17-24th May. Whilst this information was being? restored we invoked an internal manual process in an attempt toSF prevent new quotes and contract renewals from being interrupted. I canC only apologize for the inconvenience that this situation caused youCE and reassure you that the part numbers have been fully reinstated andt@ that there are no plans to permanently withdraw these services." - Abigail King# UK & Ireland Software Offer Manager) Compaq Customer Services.   C The only thing I can add here is that the short interval the prices-F were missing was probably due to me going nuclear when told around theE 17th May that the VMS consolidated distribution service was no longergD available. At around the same time I was sent Intel literature afterC specifically requesting Alphaserver brochures. I know you can guessr how happy this made me :-)  F Thanks to the many Compaq employees who worked to resolve these issuesF for us and we are now again back on track with potential new purchasesD - both VMS and T64 (simply because the products SAP and Ansys are no9 longer available under VMS - we would prefer they were)..e -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:22:49 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e2 Subject: Compaq sponsor The Inquirer with VMS kit?8 Message-ID: <4e5citgoqga9hhlutcralsu2svnpo2lsa5@4ax.com>   Just a thought....  D VMS has had favourable coverage in The Inquirer recently. Strikes meF that The Inquirer web site could easily run VMS at low cost to Compaq.B Just wonder if it might be worth VMS sponsoring this site. I doubt? there could be any real moral objection to this as VMS does noteE exactly dominate the market and The Register (from which The Inquirer B grew) accepted sponsorship from Compaq for a few days a year or soC ago. - with a suitably satirical logo of course. Maybe even sponsor?8 The Register. That would get a huge amount of publicity.  . Terry, you know these guys. What do you think? -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:16:26 GMT/4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq sponsor The Inquirer with VMS kit?9 Message-ID: <enqV6.276$86.128899@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>i  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:4e5citgoqga9hhlutcralsu2svnpo2lsa5@4ax.com... >  > Just a thought.... >0F > VMS has had favourable coverage in The Inquirer recently. Strikes meH > that The Inquirer web site could easily run VMS at low cost to Compaq.D > Just wonder if it might be worth VMS sponsoring this site. I doubtA > there could be any real moral objection to this as VMS does notnG > exactly dominate the market and The Register (from which The Inquirer D > grew) accepted sponsorship from Compaq for a few days a year or soE > ago. - with a suitably satirical logo of course. Maybe even sponsori: > The Register. That would get a huge amount of publicity. >t0 > Terry, you know these guys. What do you think? > --  I Mike runs Windoze at home (sad but true), dunno what's on the server that-L hosts his page. As a startup, I'm sure he could use all the sponsorship (and' advertising and the like) he could get.A  B I could think of worse places for CPQ to run an OpenVMS banner ad!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:50:31 -0500-% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net> - Subject: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?n/ Message-ID: <tidl12fh7v376d@corp.supernews.com>   J IIRC someone once delivered this story as a joke at a DECUS conference in E New Orleans (1985 I think).  It was very funny (I thought) and I was DL wondering if anyone here could lay their hands on an electronic copy of it. B Does anyone even remember this event :-)   The story spoke of DEC J commanding Pharaoh (IBM) to "Let my users go!".  I remember also parts of I the Lord's Prayer as...  Our Father, who art in Maynard, hallowed be thy AI name...  Lead us not into mwait...  Blah, Blah ,Blah... I don't remember sG the rest.  I was recounting this story to a coworker the other day and oI thought maybe someone who frequents this news group might remember it or n# know where to find a copy.  Anyone?d   -- h Keith Brown  kbrown780@isd.netn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:14:43 -0700i! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>o1 Subject: RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?'9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEOMCLAA.tom@kednos.com>r  9 Moses tripped, broke the tablets.  So we will never know.    > -----Original Message-----. > From: Keith Brown [mailto:kbrown780@isd.net]& > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:51 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com / > Subject: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?e >v >rK > IIRC someone once delivered this story as a joke at a DECUS conference inaF > New Orleans (1985 I think).  It was very funny (I thought) and I wasA > wondering if anyone here could lay their hands on an electronic-
 > copy of it.nC > Does anyone even remember this event :-)   The story spoke of DEClK > commanding Pharaoh (IBM) to "Let my users go!".  I remember also parts of-J > the Lord's Prayer as...  Our Father, who art in Maynard, hallowed be thyJ > name...  Lead us not into mwait...  Blah, Blah ,Blah... I don't rememberH > the rest.  I was recounting this story to a coworker the other day andJ > thought maybe someone who frequents this news group might remember it or% > know where to find a copy.  Anyone?  >s > --
 > Keith Browns > kbrown780@isd.nete >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:42:44 -0600n% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>-1 Subject: RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?eB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010612214149.0361bea8@ntbsod.psccos.com>  F Actually, I have this someplace, back from Way Back When in my days atJ Digital many moons ago (gad, nearly 20 years!).  Lemme see if I can dig it up.   ( At 09:14 PM 6/12/2001, Tom Linden wrote:: >Moses tripped, broke the tablets.  So we will never know. >  > > -----Original Message-----0 > > From: Keith Brown [mailto:kbrown780@isd.net]( > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:51 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma1 > > Subject: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?  > >i > >hM > > IIRC someone once delivered this story as a joke at a DECUS conference inrH > > New Orleans (1985 I think).  It was very funny (I thought) and I wasC > > wondering if anyone here could lay their hands on an electronic  > > copy of it. E > > Does anyone even remember this event :-)   The story spoke of DEC M > > commanding Pharaoh (IBM) to "Let my users go!".  I remember also parts ofeL > > the Lord's Prayer as...  Our Father, who art in Maynard, hallowed be thyL > > name...  Lead us not into mwait...  Blah, Blah ,Blah... I don't rememberJ > > the rest.  I was recounting this story to a coworker the other day andL > > thought maybe someone who frequents this news group might remember it or' > > know where to find a copy.  Anyone?i > >b > > -- > > Keith Brown  > > kbrown780@isd.netN > >i   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+fI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |aI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |mI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |mI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:51:54 -040000 From: "Steve DiPirro" <Steve.DiPirro@compaq.com>< Subject: Re: DECamds vs Availability Manager - Some Findings3 Message-ID: <4QqV6.1371$fi2.39582@news.cpqcorp.net>n  L Since there have been several questions lately about the differences betweenJ Availability Manager and DECamds as well as these "findings" that bash theF crap out of the product that is near and dear to my heart, I'd like to- address the various questions and "comments:"e  L First, DECamds has been around for quite a long time now. You had to run theL data analyzer on a VMS machine with DECwindows/Motif to monitor VMS machines? with the data collector. When many customers moved towards morerI heterogeneous environments that included Windows boxes and wanted some of L the system management (and other) tools to be usable from those platforms, aG decision was made to "move" DECamds. Availability Manager was born from 9 this, and it was decided to use Java for several reasons:o' - Ease of supporting multiple platformsu+ - Ease of development, particularly the GUIeG - The project leader at the time wanted to put Java on his resume so heI could get another job   C The Availability Manager needed to catch up, step by step, with theoL functionality of DECamds while always being sure not to break DECamds in theI process. They continue to share the exact same data collector (RMDRIVER). F RMDRIVER ships with the OS, and it's included on both the AvailabilityG Manager and DECamds kits. The one on these kits is typically newer thann what's shipped with the OS.V  K DECamds is in maintenance mode and with few, if any, resources to attend to K it, there's a push to do end-of-life and bury it. We have been pushing backn> on this until Availability Manager is ready to take its place.  J Bug fixes to the data collector benefit both products. New features in theJ data collector are only for Availability Manager. There is some discussion of this on our web site:<     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/availman/  ' Now to adderss some of Paul's comments:s  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagen' news:877kykqmez.fsf@prep.synonet.com...k- > rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes:i >e > > Hi All,s > H > > Thought this might be of interest if anyone is looking at DECamds or > > Availability Manager.e >-H > > Got hold of Availability Manager 2.0 (VMS & NT variants) and DECamds	 > > 7.3A.n >dG > > Installed the Availability Manager NT variant on my NT Workstation.eF > > Worked fine, picked up all of the DECamds Data Collectors, running2 > > various flavours of DECamds 7.2, 7.2-1 & 7.3A. >mJ > > Installed the VMS version of the Availability Manager on a small AlphaD > > (A DEC3000 with 64MB of Memory) This is well below the suggestedG > > config but I was only running the data Collector on 8-9 nodes. This D > > machine just could not handle the load, CPU usage up to 95-100%,G > > performance was abysmal. Must mention that I did this from an REXEC> > > session from eXcursion.>  E The Java runtime environment on VMS is not up to par with its Windows I counterpart. At least, not yet. Newer Java runtime environments come veryWE close, and you will see considerable improvements in the Availability K Manager client/GUI as well as any other Java application on VMS in the near A future. For the time being, that's the reason we recommend a moreA@ substantial hardware configuration than the one above (for VMS).  H > It won't handle 2 node... It loses the path, sso poof go you displays,8 > and you then wait for 10 min for them to be re-inited.  H If you actually use the required minimum hardware configuration, you canJ potentially monitor hundreds of nodes for node summary data. Your displaysC won't go poof, and you won't have to wait 10 minutes for them to bed
 re-inited.  D > > Using DECamds on the same VMS machine and again using REXEC from > > excursion is fine. > C > With AM, constant soft and hard paging, 30-70% CPU used. AMDS yout > can't find in CPU use!  ? I'd like to address this, but I don't understand what it means.r  D > > I installed the Availability Manager Data Collector modules on aG > > couple of VAXes and I can't see any performance differences betweenW7 > > the DECamds & Availability Manager Data Collectors.u  F The data collectors are the same. Well, RMDRIVER is the same. The dataF collection programs actually reside on the client side for both AM andH DECamds. They share many of the same data collection programs, but newer< ones have been added for AM that DECamds doesn't know about.  1 > > The Analyser, well there's a huge difference.g  I They are completely different implementations, but many of the algorithms J for the "analysis" part were borrowed from DECamds in the first place. TheI GUI is more of a Java-style GUI, with more smaller windows instead of one L gigantic one with everything on it. Some people prefer this, and some don't.L For those who don't, we're investigating support for DECamds-like views in a future release of AM.I  @ > There are other issues as well as it's performance 'problems'. >tH > It is now all one window, so takes up muck more space, and you can notH > monitor lots of combinations as they are on different pages of the oneF > display. Also, many data items seem to have now gone, so forget them > all together.i  C DECamds provides one giant window. AM provides separate windows for-F different data categories. You can have whichever ones you want on theI screen that you want and not clutter the screen with data you don't want.WK Not only is all the data still there, but AM actually provides considerablycJ MORE data in V2.0 than DECamds. If there are problems finding the data, orK if you really have found data that's missing, then it's something we'd like I to fix, and the better mechanism for getting such things fixed is through F our problem report system or email to AvailMan@compaq.com, rather than
 ranting here.y  F > God knows how you are expected to have it be any use to you when theF > systems are in trouble. I real fair weather friend if ever there was > one. >v > Not even zero out of ten.k  H Actually, there are several hundred different customers/users who reallyJ like the new user interface and use the product every day to monitor theirL data centers and detect problems and fix them using AM. I would suggest thatH others try it, get their questions answered and issues addressed, rather) than taking any one person's word for it.e   > Avoid. Use AMDS instead.  L Wrong. Use AMDS if your only choice is to run the data analyzer on a VAX/VMSJ system. Otherwise, I'd highly recommend migration to Availability Manager.J If there are any issues at all with doing this, we want to know about them- and fix them. AM is under active development.   C > Oh, did we mention that you get yet another copy of Java? Looking E > more and more like the world of gates-shit every day. In every way.g  I Amusing that Java would be considered "gates-shit." I'm sure he'd like to,H take credit for it. The Java runtime environment of the client should beL completely transparent, and it will make it possible in the future for us toL provide a GUI that runs on any platform that supports a Java runtime, givingD customers a lot of flexibility in how they want to manage their data centers.   > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.sB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   I couldn't agree more.  
 Steve DiPirro * Compaq Availability Manager Project Leader   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:13:38 -0700-, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>; Subject: Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS)c4 Message-ID: <9g54qr$6rbvd$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  8 "POWERS, John" <John.POWERS@sema.co.uk> wrote in message7 news:D30A62ABC710D211AEE100A0C9D615EE01529001@REAES2...e> > From: goathunter@goatley.com [mailto:goathunter@goatley.com] >o > >v8 > >On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:00:49 -0400, "Fred Kleinsorge"' > ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  > >e, > >>Geez, why not just  $ define dcl$path [] > >> <much snipped>  E You know what's really great about dcl$path.  Try entering an asterixr@ at the dcl prompt.  You get no error message, no message at all.  B You just ran the first .exe or .com it found in dcl$path!  Hope it wasn't something bad.b   Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:45:47 +0010s% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aue; Subject: Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS)m5 Message-ID: <01K4PVS7BY2Q001G6Z@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>t   Jim Gessling wrote:o  F >You know what's really great about dcl$path.  Try entering an asterixA >at the dcl prompt.  You get no error message, no message at all.t > C >You just ran the first .exe or .com it found in dcl$path!  Hope itn >wasn't something bad.  P This came up a while back.  And on the suggestion of someone here, but I forget N who, I have a "do nothing" .com file right at the start of my path.  Sine its A date is 23-dec-1999, that would have been the time of the thread.a   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,h
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiao   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,n; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:55:25 +0100a. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com>! Subject: Re: Disk Performance new A Message-ID: <ynvV6.4205$0a6.629794@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>p  ' >John Eisenschmidt wrote in message ...oJ >I would be happy to make my numbers available. We are very satisfied withG the disk configuration we ended up with, thanks to >LOTS of testing andr feedback from everyone here.  3 Would you like to post them here or send privately.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:55:21 -0400g+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>T! Subject: Re: Disk Performance newh# Message-ID: <sb2657a0.024@aaas.org>   F These are my general disk benchmarks - there is no legend so I would =L suggest emailing questions directly to me (spare the list)  http://eisensch=( midt.org/jweisen/misc/disktesting.pdf=20  E This is the internal document that got us the SSD (that we returned =oL because we hated it on the DS20)  http://eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/ssdt=
 esting.pdf=20e  L This is a zip file containing both PDFs  http://eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/mi= sc/alphatesting.zip   E >>> "ChrisCasey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> 06/12/2001 5:12:20 PM >>>u6 Would you mind posting them zipped to my work addresssD (Chris.Casey@Cogent.Com) or give me an address to go and fetch them.   -----Original Message-----+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> 7 To: chris.casey@ntlworld.com <chris.casey@ntlworld.com>4 Date: 12 June 2001 22:12! Subject: Re: Disk Performance newo    I They're in an Excel spreadsheet. I'm willing to post them, except they'lleI big a big, huge mime attachment, and that will tick everyone off. I coulda% post them as CSV, or a URL someplace.V  F >>> "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> 06/12/2001 4:55:25 PM >>>  ' >John Eisenschmidt wrote in message ...aJ >I would be happy to make my numbers available. We are very satisfied withG the disk configuration we ended up with, thanks to >LOTS of testing andb feedback from everyone here.  3 Would you like to post them here or send privately.g   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:31:22 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)* Subject: Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem3 Message-ID: <KQoV6.1356$fi2.38573@news.cpqcorp.net>p  m In article <b6bf97d5.0106112024.21ff8b9a@posting.google.com>, merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt) writes:Ms :merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt) wrote in message news:<b6bf97d5.0106111156.20c50187@posting.google.com>...0Q :> Hi I created a 7.2-1 and a 7.1-2 vms boot disk for DS10 and it boots past the 3O :> vms banner where I get Volume read only ,Mount verification in progress this A :> seems to dismount the disk and the boot stops there any ideas?y : 6 :whoops i mean a CDROM boot disk i copy the boot disk  :copy dka0: image.dsk @ :then down load it to win to burn it thi work witrh alpha serverH :300 4/266 running vms 62-1 but not my ds10 vms 712 and ide cdrom (dqa0)  F   Get LDDRIVER from the Freeware.  Get CDRECORD or CDWRITE.  (This is I   also Freeware, though versions are not on the current distribition; thelG   URLs are referenced in OpenVMS FAQ.)  Build the contents of the disk oH   on the LD device partition.  Then use the CDRECORD or CDWRITE tool to J   record the contents of the LD partition directly onto the CD-R or CD-RW I   media.  While folks have had success getting PC-based CD-R/CD-RW tools uI   to work with OpenVMS partitions, it is far easier and more reliable to :J   use the OpenVMS-based versions of the tools -- foreign systems can tend F   to clobber OpenVMS disk contents and file attributes, and PC systemsH   have often tended to write "harmless signatures" (aka graffiti) where    they should not...  B   I will add this sequence to the next edition of the OpenVMS FAQ.  I   Also, when posting questions, please first read the OpenVMS FAQ -- the cI   introductory section in the FAQ describes the sort of information that 1K   can be very useful to the folks reading your questions -- and getting an  I   answer quickly is what you want, so providing the relevent information  J   is obviously to your direct benefit.  Further, the FAQ contains answers I   to common questions, such as pointers to tools and information on CD-R eB   operations.  (And the above recommendations will soon be added.)    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:34:58 -0400e/ From: "Olivier Vitrat" <oliviervitrat@yahoo.ca>,E Subject: error message while copying a file frome one node to anotherb; Message-ID: <rtdV6.15008$QE4.1860117@news20.bellglobal.com>c   Hello,  H I have the following error when I try to copy a file from node ALPHA1 to
 node ALPHA2::a  > ALPHA1> cop/lo SATR.TEST ALPHA2"uhlp password"::disk7:<000000>+ %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing ALPHA2"uhlpr$ password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8  G %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, CODE$ROOT:<SENDVAX>SATR.TEST;86 not completely copiedJ+ %COPY-E-CLOSEOUT, error closing ALPHA2"uhlpi$ password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8 6 as outputn- -RMS-F-SYS, QIO system service request failede9 -SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link   % The file is not big, only 2395 blocksy= Any  idea of what can be the problem  (Decnet parameters ???)t   Thanks,o   Oliviero   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:51:32 -0400s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)I Subject: Re: error message while copying a file frome one node to another L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1106012351320001@user-2iveahd.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <rtdV6.15008$QE4.1860117@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Olivier' Vitrat" <oliviervitrat@yahoo.ca> wrote:h   > Hello, > J > I have the following error when I try to copy a file from node ALPHA1 to > node ALPHA2::i > @ > ALPHA1> cop/lo SATR.TEST ALPHA2"uhlp password"::disk7:<000000>- > %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing ALPHA2"uhlp-& > password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8 > I > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, CODE$ROOT:<SENDVAX>SATR.TEST;86 not completely copied - > %COPY-E-CLOSEOUT, error closing ALPHA2"uhlp & > password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8
 > 6 as output / > -RMS-F-SYS, QIO system service request failed?; > -SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical link  > ' > The file is not big, only 2395 blocks-? > Any  idea of what can be the problem  (Decnet parameters ???)-    J I used to see this kind of thing, with DECnet-plus over TCP/IP, when I was; way out of date on ECOs for VMS, DECnet, UCX, and multinet.i  - What versions, what patches, are you running?1   -- . Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comb   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2001 20:35:00 -05007 From: hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)a$ Subject: Re: find files base on size3 Message-ID: <WhiNsLR3lr8e@eisner.encompasserve.org>    Hi,    Does  * $dir/siz=all/sel=siz=min=10000 <file_spec>  = not work in VMS V6.2?  I don't have a system at that version.e   --Brad  _ >In article <3b2561b0@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>, "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> writes:sN > The DCL procedure below will find any file with 10,000 or more blocks on youD > system.  Change parameters as you need to get better resolution or > information as you need it.i> > ============================================================ > $SET PROC/PRIV=ALL > $!8 > $! Find files on any disk with more than 10,000 blocks > $! > $! ITEM "EOF" IS FOR USED...1 > $! ITEM "ALQ" IS FOR ALLOCATED, BUT NOT USED...  > $!
 > $DISK_LOOP:t > $! > $DISK = F$DEVICE("*","DISK")' > $ IF DISK .EQS. "" THEN GOTO FINISHEDn' > $ MOUNTED = F$GETDVI("''DISK'","MNT")o5 > $ IF "''MOUNTED'" .EQS. "FALSE" THEN GOTO DISK_LOOPt
 > $FILE_LOOP:  > $!1 > $ FILE = F$SEARCH("''DISK'[000000...]*.*.*", 1)t( > $ IF FILE .EQS. "" THEN GOTO DISK_LOOP, > $ SPEC= F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("''FILE'","EOF") > $ SPEC2 = f$INTEGER(SPEC)  > $!- > $ IF (SPEC2 .LT. 10000) THEN GOTO FILE_LOOP  > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''FILE'" > $ GOTO FILE_LOOP > $! > $FINISHED: > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT ""  > $EXIT  > $! > > > ============================================================ > -- > Bill Pederseni > CCSS Corporation > CCSS Interactive Learningu > www.VMS.St > 831-336-2708 > ================ > F > "Trevor Osatchuk" <trevor.osatchuk@nospam.pscl.com> wrote in message1 > news:3b2555f3.324630463@news.telusplanet.net... H >> I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largeG >> files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spacewI >> left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files cancI >> be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directoriest, >> over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this? >>
 >> Thanks! >> >> Trevor Osatchuk >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:05:51 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n$ Subject: Re: find files base on size' Message-ID: <3B2578FF.22C56FF5@fsi.net>l   "Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote:v >  > Hi,a >  > Does > , > $dir/siz=all/sel=siz=min=10000 <file_spec> > ? > not work in VMS V6.2?  I don't have a system at that version.    Yes - it does work in V6.2.s  A Note, however, that the value for the final keyword ("min" in the H example) is a count of disk blocks. For 10MB, the correct value would be 20480 (2048 blocks = 1MB).  F ...and can we please not argue the point about powers of two vs. power	 of "ten"?    -- a David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:17:11 +0200s: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>$ Subject: Re: find files base on size- Message-ID: <3B25C1F7.F18B1BED@volkswagen.de>e  Q And beside DCL there is the FIND utility, which does not only this but many more ,^ and it is much faster than a directory scan. I think you find it under www.process.com/openvms   Dave Sneddon - bigpond wrote:E >  > Trevor Osatchuk wrote: > > I > > I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largeaH > > files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spaceJ > > left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files canJ > > be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directories- > > over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this?r > >  > > Thanks!  > >  > > Trevor Osatchukh >  > $ HELP DIRECTORY/SELECTa! > will give you the full details.c > : > $ directory/select=size=minimum=20000 device:[000000...] > 
 > Regards, > Dave.t > --K > David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.comkK > Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/cK > DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmaK > "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennonf   -- -  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardsn   Karl Rohwedder               oC iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig wA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843aE  E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de b+          karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.dek DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:33:08 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)$ Subject: Re: find files base on size3 Message-ID: <oSoV6.1357$fi2.38641@news.cpqcorp.net>d  j In article <3B25C1F7.F18B1BED@volkswagen.de>, Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> writes:H :And beside DCL there is the FIND utility, which does not only this but I :many more and it is much faster than a directory scan. I think you find t! :it under www.process.com/openvmse  L   Like FIND, DFU also has fast-scan capabilities.  See the OpenVMS Freeware.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:49:04 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) $ Subject: Re: find files base on size* Message-ID: <9g56kf$gp$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>  o In article <3b2555f3.324630463@news.telusplanet.net>, trevor.osatchuk@nospam.pscl.com (Trevor Osatchuk) writes:oF >I have searched the web and in the docs for a way to search for largeE >files on an OpenVMS 6.2 computer.  We have only 20megs of disk spacenG >left on one of the disks and are looking to see if any large files candG >be deleted.  I would like to get a listing of files and/or directoriess* >over 10 megs.  How can I accomplish this? >u >Thanks! >i >Trevor Osatchuk  4 DIR/SIZE=ALL/SELECT=SIZE=MIN=20000  disk:[000000...]      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:39:18 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>oE Subject: Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ stt2 Message-ID: <c28mO7hprh5BrIGzDdw2gkZxufxV@4ax.com>  ; Uh ... no it does not.  See the commentary for June 12 fromo? the Cato Institute at http://www.cato.org/commentary/index.html 6 and at CEI at http://www.cei.org/PRReader.asp?ID=1511.   David R. Beatty   D On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:40:29 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:  G >A study by the National Academy of Sciences (commissioned by the WhiteaH >House) was released (I think) just today.  It stated unequivocally thatF >global warming was real and that human activity was a major causativeH >factor.  Not that this is likely to convince those who still have their/ >heads stuck firmly in the sand (or elsewhere).  >j >- billD >n >    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 02:23:51 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licensinga- Message-ID: <87elsp36bs.fsf@prep.synonet.com>0  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:o  C > I had made a proposal to Compaq to have a web-based worldwide VMS0A > user group that would cater to those people who live in an areaeF > without an active "DECUS" user group and it, as one of the services,9 > would have provided members with access to the Hobbyista= > programme. Unfortunatly, the marketing manager is under thes@ > impression that Encompass is sufficeint to serve the world and > turned down the proposal.t  F This is like the old DECUS at Large 'Chapter' that ended up in Europe.@ Encompass membership is now available world wide (ie places like3 Alaska, and Honolulu ;)) so that *should* cover it.S   -- s< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:57:16 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>S Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licensinga, Message-ID: <3B26E49B.E14899F2@videotron.ca>   Paul Repacholi wrote:'H > This is like the old DECUS at Large 'Chapter' that ended up in Europe.B > Encompass membership is now available world wide (ie places like5 > Alaska, and Honolulu ;)) so that *should* cover it.r  M Will Compaq start to market the USA based Encompass in geographies other thantM the USA ? For instance, if a country "Great White North" has an official user-M group on paper (we'll call it "GWNACU" for sake if dicsussion, but that groupsK has absolutely no activities. Will Compaq in the Great-White-North start to$K market Encompass to its customers or will it have to continue to market thes nearly-dead GWNACU user group ?k  K As long as the inactive user groups continue to exist on paper, it preventsnM Compaq from advertising Encompas-USA as a solution to those who do not resideoI in the USA, and as a result, a great many won't know about the ability to- subscribe to Encompass.   F And from what I had read, any foreigner that wants to get an EncompassL membership number needs to pay USD $40 via snail mail because their web site can't take transactions.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 12:11:19 -0700+ From: dwaybright@dollar.com (Don Waybright)c& Subject: Re: How to rewrite SLS in DCL= Message-ID: <9ef96daa.0106121111.44ae96b2@posting.google.com>   I > Seriously however, if you're looking for performance, and money isn't aiK > problem, consider Veritas NetBackup.   True you need a UNIX server for ittG > and VMS is a client, however, in all my testing, NetBackup absolutely"I > screams on performance with its tape and network multiplexing features.i    > How does Veritas NetBackup deal with VMS image backups and RDBB backups?  Also does it intergrate with Oracle 8i on VMS with thierA backup utility?  Are there any other constraints to consider whenr@ using Veritas on VMS?  How does Veritas on VMS compare to Legato (Wumpusware) client?  
 Thanks....   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:40:23 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing* Message-ID: <3B269A57.24D17AF1@virgin.net>   JF Mezei wrote:s  P > Winkler may havd told you he has seen religion, but to be actions speak louderO > than words. It is very easy for Digital and now Compaq to say great things tohN > try to reassure customers, but it is another one to actually enact these for > more than a couple of months.  >e  W Still Compaq has been running ads for VMS in most of the UK trade computer rags for theuY past few months. Many of the attendees at the London VMS technical update days I spoke to Z commented on these ads and their confidence building effect. Still you haven't seen any inU the US/Canada yet where it really counts but hitting most of the UK trade press isn'ti exactly trivial either.b   >pN > When I see Capellas on CNN Moneyline mention how Compaq's Alpha servers withP > VMS, Tru64 and NSK differentiate Compaq from all the other box servers and putO > in in the same league as IBM and HP, then I will beleive that Compaq might beiO > changing. Until then, they remain a box maker with a pesky sideline they wishi? > they didn't have but can't get rid of because of the profits.   Y I'd like to see things move forward faster as well but at least there are some real first3W signs VMS is no longer in retreat - or rather forced surrender as in the latter Digitalf days.    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:45:17 +0100h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing* Message-ID: <3B269B7D.C06CE364@virgin.net>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:DF If you talk to Rich Marcello or Mark Gorham, you are likely to get the  1 > impression that they want to grow the business.h  F I sincerely believe they do. Just hope they have sufficient resources.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:53:49 +0100l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing* Message-ID: <3B269D7D.88609718@virgin.net>   Jordan Henderson wrote:"  J > be no more VMS.  I wonder if that wasn't just some DEC manager's idea ofF > motivating the consultants to learn Unix right away so that he couldE > actually field some Unix people.  Similarly, some DEC sales managerhB > could have been trying to spur his salesmen to push the Alpha/NT > offerings. >d  T Unfortunately reporting statements like these to Digital on the assumption they wereQ unauthorized did not produce a response. I am certain that if a Compaq salesdroidQS made a similar comment today (not Alpha/NT obviously) a formal written denial wouldo# be issued. And that's a big change.v   >oI > But, you do paint a convincing picture that there was some DEC strategyeH > against VMS in the 90's.  It might have gone back further than this...F > I wonder if DEC employees who sufferred through cutbacks starting inH > the mid to late 80's weren't blaming corporate's insistence on pushing3 > VMS when the world was going in other directions.c >mG > >Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was his0% > >biggest single mistake at Digital.a > >o >a > And that's saying a LOT. >e	 > >[snip]f > >r > >--  > >Alann   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:17:48 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <wqxV6.1515$%f.1491105@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>T  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message$ news:3B269B7D.C06CE364@virgin.net... >E >O > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:oH > If you talk to Rich Marcello or Mark Gorham, you are likely to get the >S3 > > impression that they want to grow the business.  >tH > I sincerely believe they do. Just hope they have sufficient resources. >c  9 Here's hoping. Hey, they still got Sue S, right?????  ;-}    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:46:10 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <6ggV6.1110$%f.1326335@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>e  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagen& news:rdeininger-1106012322390001@user- >mF > At the alphaserver diamond forum in NYC last month, the Compaq folksL > reported VMS growth in the financial sector over the last year.  Not flat,	 > but up.l >iJ > Compaq seems to be throwing an expensive alpha/VMS shindig in NYC 2 or 3L > times a year, mainly for their financial customers in the area.  These areH > (sadly from my point of view) non-technical, suit-level presentations.  H Yep. A bit different from the recent DFW, DC, Zurich, and London events.  G > These things can't be cheap to host.  I think the fact that they keep[B > doing them means they are percieved to be helping VMS marketing.  I Anything that sells GS-Series boxes helps OpenVMS marketing. The December G NYC event and just one of the aforementioned events resulted in >5 suche sales.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:20:52 -0400D- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing, Message-ID: <3B25988C.58084DC4@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:DF > At the alphaserver diamond forum in NYC last month, the Compaq folksL > reported VMS growth in the financial sector over the last year.  Not flat,	 > but up.n  G Sorry to be cynical, but VMS sales from Compaq's point of view does noteK necessarily mean growth. Just because system upgrades which had been put oneN hold for a few years while customers were trying to figure out what Compaq wasN going to do were finally released last year does not mean that VMS is growing,M it only means that customers in that area have stopped getting rid of VMS and M are now spending on system upgrades to keep adequate response time (or due tolU accounting deciding it is cheaper to upgrade than to pay maintenance older hardware).=  M It is fair to state that Compaq has succeeded in controlling the bleeding andrI that customers no longer have plans to migrate away from VMS just because I "Digital is killing VMS". But there are still customers who have plans to$E migrate from VMS because their application is being widthdrawn or hasE uncertain future.K  M However, I see a big difference between a company deciding not to dutch their H VMS system, and once standardizing on VMS for major server applications,  especially for new applications.  B My feeling is that "legacy" applications will continue on VMS, butJ corporations will be deploying new applications on other platforms becauseE that is where those new applications are available instead of on VMS."    J > Compaq seems to be throwing an expensive alpha/VMS shindig in NYC 2 or 3A > times a year, mainly for their financial customers in the area.i  N Good for Compaq. In 1996, I was told by Citibank and Banker Trust (now DeutcheM Bank) that they had internal knowledge that VMS was going to be killed an not0L survive. Whether this was heresay or based on real facts doesn't matter: VMS' had an image that it would not survive.O  L Another reason for Compaq to hold those shindigs is to ensure that customersS who still want to migrate will choose Compaq wintel servers instead of IBM servers.   L > tape.  Most VMS sites will never go to the trouble of vetting market-speak  > for approval to go on the web.  ; Unless there is a financial incentive from Compaq to do so.e  L > At the May shindig, Marc Krellenstein of NorthernLight gave a nice historyL > of his firm's use of VMS and why they chose it.  Performance, scalability, > reliability:  M  I have this strange feeling that Northern Light was funded by VMS marketing.nM Where did they get their money ? (or how long before they dot bomb ? (run outvL of money). I think it was great to have it choose VMS. But to state that VMSI was the only one capable of scaling is false since Alta Vista had been in0B existance for quite some time already and they were able to scale.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:43:10 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1206010043100001@user-2iveahd.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B25988C.58084DC4@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeii% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:f   > Robert Deininger wrote:fH > > At the alphaserver diamond forum in NYC last month, the Compaq folksN > > reported VMS growth in the financial sector over the last year.  Not flat, > > but up.e > I > Sorry to be cynical, but VMS sales from Compaq's point of view does not@M > necessarily mean growth. Just because system upgrades which had been put onBP > hold for a few years while customers were trying to figure out what Compaq wasP > going to do were finally released last year does not mean that VMS is growing,O > it only means that customers in that area have stopped getting rid of VMS andrO > are now spending on system upgrades to keep adequate response time (or due to F > accounting deciding it is cheaper to upgrade than to pay maintenance older hardware).  E I only report what they said.  (And only because Terry wasn't there.)l   P > Good for Compaq. In 1996, I was told by Citibank and Banker Trust (now DeutcheO > Bank) that they had internal knowledge that VMS was going to be killed an notrN > survive. Whether this was heresay or based on real facts doesn't matter: VMS) > had an image that it would not survive.   G I know I saw CitiBank/CitiGroup nametags at the forum.  I believe I saw + Deutche Bank as well, but I'm not positive.n  N > Another reason for Compaq to hold those shindigs is to ensure that customersH > who still want to migrate will choose Compaq wintel servers instead of IBM servers.  > I leave the negative spinning to you.  It's your department...    N > > At the May shindig, Marc Krellenstein of NorthernLight gave a nice historyN > > of his firm's use of VMS and why they chose it.  Performance, scalability, > > reliability: > O >  I have this strange feeling that Northern Light was funded by VMS marketing.dO > Where did they get their money ? (or how long before they dot bomb ? (run outdN > of money). I think it was great to have it choose VMS. But to state that VMSK > was the only one capable of scaling is false since Alta Vista had been inaD > existance for quite some time already and they were able to scale.  ; They are privately-held.  I don't know who the backers are.w  H Most of their business does not come from the northernlight.com site andJ its ad revenues.  That's only 10 or 20%, if I remember the figures right. B Their big business is in data indexing and retrieval for corporateB customers.  Basically, they index a company's data and serve it upJ internally pretty much the way northernlight.com indexes and serves up theF web.  This is the bulk of their business at this point.  They also getD some income by licensing and serving up journals and other copyrightJ material.  (You will notice that some of the hits at northernlight.com askJ for a per-document fee these days.  Automatically refunded upon request if you don't like the document.)   I He said that they are relatively safe from dot-bombing, since they dependaG so little on ad revenue.  He didn't claim they planned it this way, but$I they saw the potential for corporate business, their software was alreadyeD pretty close to what they needed, and they decided to diversify.  In retrospect, he's glad they did.s  H As for comparing them with altavista (which doesn't run on VMS), he saysG what northernlight does in their indexing and searching goes beyond thesB others.  They index and update more often, their searches are moreJ sophisticated, and their classification scheme is more compute-intensive. I I suppose some part of that spiel is just competitor-bashing, but some of H it is clearly true.  For what NL does, he stands by VMS at the only real choice.r  H Perhaps you think Krellenstein and the other folks at Northernlight wereH tricked into VMS by some fiendish marketeers at Compaq.  (Isn't that theI kind of marketing that we all fear is missing?)  If that happened, it was8G so subtle that Krellenstein still doesn't know he's been had.  He knowsmG _exactly_ why they chose VMS, and he can (and did) explain it, point byn@ point.  I belive the Diamond Forum presentations are on-line via@ www.openvms.compaq.com, probably in the hated powerpoint format.   Maybe you had to be there...   -- : Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comc   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:29:10 GMT.4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <GOoV6.1246$%f.1391226@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>h  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:dqmbitggb18a6dubmcb89ot5jr4st511i1@4ax.com...6 > On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:22:52 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >o > >u9 > ><fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in message@I > >news:OF1C206F61.5412874F-ON03256A68.00640615@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... + > >> There is not reference about any OS...- > >>, > >> But you know:  Compaq is Compaq (Intel) > >>= > >> The brand name still being connected to Intel machines !r > >> > >i9 > >Yes, either by accident or design, this is sadly true.i >aD > This sounds very similar to the ads  I saw on trains on the LondonH > Docklands Line coming back from the VMS technical update days. They doB > appear to cunningly imply by omission that all of the high levelE > Compaq financial stuff runs Windows It is difficult to believe thatoD > Compaq are running similar ads around the world by accident. It isH > also difficult to understand why Compaq don't fix their marketing when* > pointed out if it really is by accident. > F > It does make perfect sense if the Compaq master plan continues to beF > to help Windows take over completely as Winkler helpfully told us itA > was in his little asides during the 2000 analysts presentation..  H No it doesn't, because the margins aren't there and you cede all accountF control when you go over to the Dark Side. All you have left is server= differentiation, and that really exists only in the 8P space.D  G > However he has said since then in private email that "regarding VMS IeF > have found religion" so he either has genuinely seen the light or heD > was just taking the piss. If genuine I would expect to see new adsA > within the next 6 months that dare to mention VMS, T64 and NSK.r  F With the trashing the Wintel arena is taking I would hope he'd see theH light. The guy didn't get to where he is by being stupid. But it appearsJ there's often a disconnect between the execs and the marketing collateral.  3 Yet another reason to chastize, er, inform them viarI www.compaqworkinggroup.org (WARNING: JAVASCRIPT ENABLED! A COOKIE WILL BE  SET!)e  ? But no Black Helicopters or Compaq salesfolks will show up. ;-}    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:33:30 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing; Message-ID: <KSoV6.1247$%f.1391864@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>s  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:4aobitohmgf3p1uqu5kl3i83in51mj44i2@4ax.com.... > On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:20:52 -0400, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:- >-I > >Good for Compaq. In 1996, I was told by Citibank and Banker Trust (now. DeutcheWL > >Bank) that they had internal knowledge that VMS was going to be killed an not1K > >survive. Whether this was heresay or based on real facts doesn't matter:p VMSm* > >had an image that it would not survive. >eH > Not hearsay as I could personally testify in court to DEC sales saying? > at a meeting with my new boss (a librarian given charge of IT F > following the shotgun wedding of IT and library services) that "AlanE > is very loyal to VMS and it was a fine operating system in its time E > but Alpha/NT is the future and VMS is the past. NT on Alpha will beyH > around long after VMS is gone. It has to be because we are betting the > future of DEC on Alpha/NT".a  K Yep. Have heard the same. Have also heard, from very reliable sources, that-I Wes Melling was brought in to be the Doc Kevorkian of VMS. Obviously thisgG did not happen, customers wouldn't stand for it and Windows/NT is by no.I means the functional equivalent of VMS (or MVS, NSK, Solaris, Tru64, etc)h+ nor will it be for quite some time to come.d     >hF > Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was his$ > biggest single mistake at Digital.   Heard that too. First hand.e   >tH > Still that was the past and must not be forgotten but there has been aH > clear about turn in the last couple of years and I suspect that CompaqA > aren't certain what to do with VMS but know they can't kill it.a  F If you talk to Rich Marcello or Mark Gorham, you are likely to get the/ impression that they want to grow the business.e   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 09:39:34 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)p( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing* Message-ID: <9g562m$n5i$1@lisa.gemair.com>  8 In article <4aobitohmgf3p1uqu5kl3i83in51mj44i2@4ax.com>,' Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:e- >On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:20:52 -0400, JF Mezeii& ><jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: >hP >>Good for Compaq. In 1996, I was told by Citibank and Banker Trust (now DeutcheO >>Bank) that they had internal knowledge that VMS was going to be killed an nothN >>survive. Whether this was heresay or based on real facts doesn't matter: VMS) >>had an image that it would not survive.  >-G >Not hearsay as I could personally testify in court to DEC sales saying2> >at a meeting with my new boss (a librarian given charge of ITE >following the shotgun wedding of IT and library services) that "Alan.D >is very loyal to VMS and it was a fine operating system in its timeD >but Alpha/NT is the future and VMS is the past. NT on Alpha will beG >around long after VMS is gone. It has to be because we are betting thes >future of DEC on Alpha/NT". n   They lost that bet.-  ? >                            When challenged on this by me theylD >shuffled awkwardly but admitted they had said it. That was when DEC@ >stabbed me in the back resulting in the cancellation of plannedG >Alpha/VMS orders by the University of Abertay Dundee back around 1996.gE >They bought several Alpha/NT and one Digital Unix system instead., ItC >shouldn't really laugh... Almost any ex-DEC sales guy, after a few G >drinks, will tell you this was the line they were instructed to peddle D >behind closed doors. Add to this taking legal action against peopleF >promoting third party VMS software guides, telling major ISVs to moveE >away from VMS and not promoting the OS for ten years and I think your >have a guilty verdict./ >o  G This is still kind of hearsay.  The salesmen had no real way of knowingeG DEC strategy.  I know a former DEC Consultant who says that he was toldCF that Ultrix was taking over in the late 80's and that soon there wouldH be no more VMS.  I wonder if that wasn't just some DEC manager's idea ofD motivating the consultants to learn Unix right away so that he couldD actually field some Unix people.  Similarly, some DEC sales manager @ could have been trying to spur his salesmen to push the Alpha/NT
 offerings.  G But, you do paint a convincing picture that there was some DEC strategy.F against VMS in the 90's.  It might have gone back further than this...E I wonder if DEC employees who sufferred through cutbacks starting in rF the mid to late 80's weren't blaming corporate's insistence on pushing1 VMS when the world was going in other directions.p  E >Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was hisa# >biggest single mistake at Digital.. >    And that's saying a LOT.   >[snip]  >y >--l >Alanc   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 10:17:25 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) ( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing* Message-ID: <9g589l$qlr$1@lisa.gemair.com>  ; In article <KSoV6.1247$%f.1391864@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,-3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  >e >[snip]T >y >>G >> Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was hise% >> biggest single mistake at Digital.5 >p >Heard that too. First hand. >   $ Bob Palmer told you this personally?   >[snip]s   -Jordan Henderson- jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:16:26 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing9 Message-ID: <enqV6.277$86.129281@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>g  < "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message$ news:9g562m$n5i$1@lisa.gemair.com...   <snip> >tI > But, you do paint a convincing picture that there was some DEC strategyfH > against VMS in the 90's.  It might have gone back further than this...F > I wonder if DEC employees who sufferred through cutbacks starting inH > the mid to late 80's weren't blaming corporate's insistence on pushing3 > VMS when the world was going in other directions.   H Clearly Ken Olsen's focus on "one architecture, one OS, one message, oneI company" went on for way too long. Of course we all have 20-20 hindsight,0I but had DEC gone ahead and allowed folks to OEM the MicroVAX architecturefE and VMS back in 1985 (a decision scuttled by Jack Shields at the laste* moment) things might look different today.   >dG > >Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was hisf% > >biggest single mistake at Digital.  > >  >o > And that's saying a LOT.  I Obviously a lot of mistakes were made. And it was pretty obvious that WesoK Melling's agenda was to use the Affinity Strategy as a lever to migrate allo. and sundry from VMS to NT as soon as possible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:21:22 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing8 Message-ID: <dqmbitggb18a6dubmcb89ot5jr4st511i1@4ax.com>  4 On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:22:52 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   >i7 ><fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageuG >news:OF1C206F61.5412874F-ON03256A68.00640615@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br...a) >> There is not reference about any OS...D >>* >> But you know:  Compaq is Compaq (Intel) >>; >> The brand name still being connected to Intel machines !  >> >u7 >Yes, either by accident or design, this is sadly true.f  B This sounds very similar to the ads  I saw on trains on the LondonF Docklands Line coming back from the VMS technical update days. They do@ appear to cunningly imply by omission that all of the high levelC Compaq financial stuff runs Windows It is difficult to believe thatnB Compaq are running similar ads around the world by accident. It isF also difficult to understand why Compaq don't fix their marketing when( pointed out if it really is by accident.  D It does make perfect sense if the Compaq master plan continues to beD to help Windows take over completely as Winkler helpfully told us it? was in his little asides during the 2000 analysts presentation. E However he has said since then in private email that "regarding VMS I9D have found religion" so he either has genuinely seen the light or heB was just taking the piss. If genuine I would expect to see new ads? within the next 6 months that dare to mention VMS, T64 and NSK.t     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:48:06 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h( Subject: Re: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing8 Message-ID: <4aobitohmgf3p1uqu5kl3i83in51mj44i2@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:20:52 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:u  O >Good for Compaq. In 1996, I was told by Citibank and Banker Trust (now DeutchegN >Bank) that they had internal knowledge that VMS was going to be killed an notM >survive. Whether this was heresay or based on real facts doesn't matter: VMSV( >had an image that it would not survive.  F Not hearsay as I could personally testify in court to DEC sales saying= at a meeting with my new boss (a librarian given charge of ITeD following the shotgun wedding of IT and library services) that "AlanC is very loyal to VMS and it was a fine operating system in its timenC but Alpha/NT is the future and VMS is the past. NT on Alpha will be F around long after VMS is gone. It has to be because we are betting the> future of DEC on Alpha/NT". When challenged on this by me theyC shuffled awkwardly but admitted they had said it. That was when DEC ? stabbed me in the back resulting in the cancellation of planned F Alpha/VMS orders by the University of Abertay Dundee back around 1996.D They bought several Alpha/NT and one Digital Unix system instead., IB shouldn't really laugh... Almost any ex-DEC sales guy, after a fewF drinks, will tell you this was the line they were instructed to peddleC behind closed doors. Add to this taking legal action against peoplelE promoting third party VMS software guides, telling major ISVs to move-D away from VMS and not promoting the OS for ten years and I think you have a guilty verdict.  D Bob Palmer supposedly admits in private that downplaying VMS was his" biggest single mistake at Digital.  F Still that was the past and must not be forgotten but there has been aF clear about turn in the last couple of years and I suspect that Compaq? aren't certain what to do with VMS but know they can't kill it.   M >> At the May shindig, Marc Krellenstein of NorthernLight gave a nice history M >> of his firm's use of VMS and why they chose it.  Performance, scalability,t >> reliability:r >sN > I have this strange feeling that Northern Light was funded by VMS marketing.N >Where did they get their money ? (or how long before they dot bomb ? (run outM >of money). I think it was great to have it choose VMS. But to state that VMSsJ >was the only one capable of scaling is false since Alta Vista had been inC >existance for quite some time already and they were able to scale.e   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 02:46:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster?- Message-ID: <8766e135a0.fsf@prep.synonet.com>b  7 "GWDVMS::MOELLER" <moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de> writes:i  B > I just learned that UCX V4 can have not more than one "BIND"/DNSD > name server in a VMS cluster, independent of name server type (theB > installation on whose behalf I'm asking, could do with redundant > secondaries).a  E > From scanning TCPIP$STARTUP.COM on a nearby system with TCPIP V5.0AeA > installed, it seems that the restriction is still present thereo; > ... with the documentation still silent about this point.o  E > Only TCPIP V5.1 documentation seems to tell me that multiple "BIND"o0 > servers within a cluster are a possibility ...  E > So, is my idea correct that TCPIP V5.1 is required in order to haves+ > multiple "BIND" servers within a cluster?n  < > Thanks in advance for hints, observations, war stories ...  F BIND is just another user process. Nothing magic about it at all.  TheE config and startup files *as shipped* nail it to one copy per clustert system disk.  F It is easy to edit things arround so you can run several. In fact, youD should be able to run multiple *primary* servers ;) Good for stiring the unix heads if nothing else.r  ? This was discussed soon after 5.0 came out, and the support foryC multiple servers in a cluster was said to be in 5.1. Nice to see itg has come through.'   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:43:48 -0400-0 From: Jason Fountain <Jason.Fountain@compaq.com>: Subject: Re: Multiple UCX/TCPIP name servers in a cluster?* Message-ID: <3B267F04.530E7644@compaq.com>   GWDVMS::MOELLER wrote:  L > But at least with UCX V4, attempts to configure/enable "BIND" name serviceH > on a 2nd system in a cluster fail, with UCX$CONFIG.COM translating the > error status intosD >         "Another node in this cluster has already been configured"@ >         "as the Bind Server, and only one cluster node can be"( >         "configured as a bind server."B > Since the same text is also in V5.0 TCPIP$CONFIG, I *guess* that: > only V5.1 permits configuring more than one name server.  N Ok, I checked with a more vintage member of the group and he confirms that theO restriction was there in V3 and V4.  I checked the V5 code streams and it looks N like the removal didn't surface until 5.1.  So the tcpip$config restriction isR really there as you suspected.   If you can get around the artificial tcpip$config2 restriction, multiple BIND servers are acceptable.  I Creating a special version of UCX$CONFIGURATION.DAT in sys$specific: is ar@ convenient way to bypass the check and has worked well for many.   -jason   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:57:54 -0500e% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>n! Subject: Re: NCP counter questions/ Message-ID: <tiaq1slfair4d9@corp.supernews.com>o   john nixon wrote:0  G > You might want to zero your counters and continue to watch.  You haveaL > reached the timer limit (65534 seconds).  From your display we cannot tellD > if these errors have occurred over the past 18 hours or 18 months. > 4 > "Keith Brown" <kbrown780@isd.net> wrote in message+ > news:ti4ovm9pm8ua48@corp.supernews.com...aI >> I support a VAX 4500 running OpenVMS 6.2 with Decnet phase 4, UCX v4.2  >> and LAT.e >>" >> $ mcr ncp show known line count >>  >> gives the following output... >> Line = ISA-0y >>* >>       >65534  Seconds since last zeroed% >>      1251483  Data blocks receivedy* >>       949453  Multicast blocks received  >>            0  Receive failure >>    120744315  Bytes receivedg) >>     84810051  Multicast bytes received  >>            0  Data overrune! >>       102533  Data blocks senti& >>         9207  Multicast blocks sent1 >>           84  Blocks sent, multiple collisionsr. >>          132  Blocks sent, single collision0 >>          649  Blocks sent, initially deferred >>     80364475  Bytes sentV% >>      1670383  Multicast bytes sentM >>            0  Send failurer/ >>            0  Collision detect check failuree/ >>            6  Unrecognized frame destinationt* >>          217  System buffer unavailable( >>            0  User buffer unavailable >>/ >> Note 217 System buffer unavailable messages.o >>I >> Question:  What do I need to tweek to fix this, is it cause for worry?  >> >> Thanks in advance >> --o >> Keith Brown >> kbrown780@isd.net >> >  >  >   I Sorry, I should have noted that the counters were reset approximately 24 s hour hours prior.e   -- n Keith Brown  kbrown780@isd.nett   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:50:55 +0200y= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>.+ Subject: Re: NCP to NCL command equivilantsr5 Message-ID: <3B25E5FF.5E46F14E@contrastmediagroep.nl>e   Robert Deininger wrote:i  < > If you need it, I expect I can dig up the program I wrote. > L > Actually, I found it first try, so I stuck it below.  I don't remember why  > I commented out NET$EXAMINE... >  > ADD_DECNET_PLUS_IDS.FOR :   % $ mc sys$update:net$fixup_identifiersp   Will do the trick as well...   Oswald   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:54:17 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: Need help with LIB$TABLE_PARSEd3 Message-ID: <dcwV6.1400$fi2.39696@news.cpqcorp.net>N   In article <TysV6.4237$IA5.191853@e420r-atl3.usenetserver.com>, "Ruslan R. Laishev" <to-junk--laishev@mail.dls.net---to-junk> writes:   B   Have you reviewed the lib$t[able_]parse examples in the current A   OpenVMS documentation; specifically the LIB$ RTL documentation?b  /   You reference parsing a string in the format:v       Token1: foo Token2: barh  F   But that is unfortunately insufficent grammar to define the parsing.  F   Are there specific tokens for Token1 and Token2, or is it free-form?  F   What are the permitted delimiters between "foo" and "Token2" in the    above example?    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:43:30 -0500n" From: Earl Lakia <lakia@ipact.com>+ Subject: Re: Need help with LIB$TABLE_PARSEa) Message-ID: <3B260E72.15A100BE@ipact.com>w  ; Not sure what you are trying to do, but have you considereda9 STR$ELEMENT or the other string runtime library routines?s  2 How about LEX and YACC?  I once had a version that ran on OpenVMS.n  = I also once wrote a simple lexical parser and fed it into theo6 DCL parser.  Of course, I was able to design the input6 source with lots of "/" which you said weren't part of the grammer.   --
 Earl Lakia lakia@ipact.comc   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:  
 >  Hello All, M >         I'm need your advise or help, I'd like to use this stuff to parse ay
 > string likewM > "TokenA: bla-bla-1 TokenB: bla-bla-2" to extract bla-bla-1 and bla-bla-2 ase
 > "values"L > of the tokens (TokenA and TokenB). Can someone write or explain to me what > is the > parser's table must be ?   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 02:14:50 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: No 7.3 yets- Message-ID: <87iti136qt.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:n  l > In article <TWTU6.12567$tb6.4245365@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> writes:  E > > So should I be starting to worry?  Take my club and wander amonstoC > > the other buildings looking for it?  Think they hijacked it forl > > the CD case?  ? > 	Be patient.  On Friday, someone "accidently" mailed 7.3 to aeA > 	co-worker that requested Tru64 kit.  In enquiring about it, heh? > 	straightened out the mix-up.  I am to keep the 7.3 kit, mailr< > 	mine back when it comes and his Tru64 is on the way.  The8 > 	impression I get is there a number of 7.3 kit "in the > 	pipeline" yet.o  D Dont forget to put the CDs back in the nice cardboard apckage before you send it back :)t   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.w@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov l   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:03:59 GMTr, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> Subject: Re: No 7.3 yets; Message-ID: <jlwV6.19001$lq1.6345288@typhoon.austin.rr.com>s  M In message <BV9phSiv05je@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.orgr (Rob Young) wrote:M > In article <TWTU6.12567$tb6.4245365@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Jay E. Morris"o <morrisj@epsilon3.com> writes:I > > So should I be starting to worry?  Take my club and wander amonst theh other F > > buildings looking for it?  Think they hijacked it for the CD case? > >  > >  > = > 	Be patient.  On Friday, someone "accidently" mailed 7.3 toi@ > 	a co-worker that requested Tru64 kit.  In enquiring about it,B > 	he straightened out the mix-up.  I am to keep the 7.3 kit, mailG > 	mine back when it comes and his Tru64 is on the way.  The impressiono< > 	I get is there a number of 7.3 kit "in the pipeline" yet.  = Patience is rewarded, showed up today.  That is a great case!p   -- r4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 14:35:01 GMT7 From: Thomas.Hahnemann@nospam_s-t.de (Thomas Hahnemann)a; Subject: Re: No license is active for this software product 0 Message-ID: <Oozvf8elmJpy-pn2-8EdlnN6mve9D@Tom2>   Thanks for your help.t  G This machine runs fine until yesterday. It was configured with enoungh n userG licenses. I've worked on it with some different logins a few weeks ago.SE I've not seen this behaviour before. Unfortunately the system is now o  dismounted to make one from two.  ( Thomas Hahnemann, S&T Systemtechnik GmbH  G On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:29:16, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote:D  I > It is possible that you don't have enough user licenses for VMS on thise& > machine.  Please post the output of: >  > $ SHOW LIC/CHARGEs >  and > $ SHOW LIC OPEN* >  > HM >    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 07:52:38 GMT7 From: Thomas.Hahnemann@nospam_s-t.de (Thomas Hahnemann) 7 Subject: No license is active for this software producto0 Message-ID: <Oozvf8elmJpy-pn2-mI9srdBxRJN6@Tom2>   Hi,o  4 I've got this message form a DEC-Aplha with VMS7.1 :  . No license is active for this software product3 %REM-S-END, control returned to node LOCAL:.ANTON::@  5 during login over decnet from a host which has run a b9 long time as standby system. Login at the system console (/ works and all processes seems to run fine. Alson1 set host on this machine or create term /nologginh returns this message.n  ( Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.     Thomas Hahnemann S&T Systemtechnik GmbH   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 05:29:16 -0400t( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>; Subject: Re: No license is active for this software productm+ Message-ID: <3B25E0EC.F10DABBD@bigfoot.com>l  G It is possible that you don't have enough user licenses for VMS on thisn$ machine.  Please post the output of:   $ SHOW LIC/CHARGE-  and $ SHOW LIC OPEN*   HM   Thomas Hahnemann wrote:0   > Hi,  >n6 > I've got this message form a DEC-Aplha with VMS7.1 : >S0 > No license is active for this software product5 > %REM-S-END, control returned to node LOCAL:.ANTON::  >r6 > during login over decnet from a host which has run a: > long time as standby system. Login at the system console1 > works and all processes seems to run fine. Also.3 > set host on this machine or create term /nologgin  > returns this message.u >o* > Thanks in advance for any help or ideas. >n > Thomas Hahnemann > S&T Systemtechnik GmbH   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:47:25 -0400s4 From: "Mark Buda" <buda@tabasco.zko.dec.no.spam.com>; Subject: Re: No license is active for this software producta, Message-ID: <9g6k80$cst4$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  6 > I've got this message form a DEC-Aplha with VMS7.1 : >r0 > No license is active for this software product5 > %REM-S-END, control returned to node LOCAL:.ANTON::.  C This error occurs when you do not have OpenVMS-ALPHA loaded on yournG system or not enough units available for an interactive login.  You cans* always login via the console (I.e. OPA0:).  F Do a LICENSE LIST/database='location_of_db'/fu OpenVMS-ALPHA to get an idea of what is going on.r  H Did you modify the license with a /INCLUDE or /EXCLUDE?  Did the license3 expire?  Did someone disable or delete the license?"   Hope this helps,  - marke   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:07:34 +0200s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a Subject: Re: NYSET, Message-ID: <3B2692A6.2F8D90BB@infopuls.com>   Eckhard Wich wrote:  >  > Christof Brass schrieb:r >  > > Scott Vieth wrote: > > >ns > > > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<vk5U6.432190$fs3.68102873@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>...2S > > > > Anybody know what kind of computer system the New York Stock Exchange uses?oS > > > > All trading has been halted due to a "computer glitch".  Of course that cou   > > > > ld mean almost anything. > > >gG > > > I was thinking exactly the same thing this morning when I saw ther: > > > news.  I hope the problem was not with a VMS system. > > >vJ > > > One of the four exchanges in Chicago runs on VMS.  I know one of theH > > > other ones in Chi-town(CBOT?) made a big deal out of the fact that% > > > they're running the show on NT.r > > >c > > > -Scott > >vC > > CBOT is VMS, SWX Swiss Exchange trading system they co-operate.  > ? > Not to forget EUREX. They form "a/c/e" - Aliance CBoT, EUREX.u  > Eurex is a 50% subsidiary of the SWX Swiss Exchange (the other6 50% are hold by the Deutsche Brse in Frankfurt) - :-)  5 They use the same technique and mostly the same code.t  K > See www.deutsche-boerse.com and www.cbot.com for first-hand informations.l > + > Things are weird if you are wired .. -ew-r   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2001 23:58:15 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>y0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in California0 Message-ID: <3b255b42$1@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>   Thanks, Sue!  J Am looking forward to this event.  I have been able to arrange for several of my customers to attend.   Bill.i   --
 Bill PedersenV CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learningh
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messagew- news:nS2V6.1300$fi2.35047@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Updated Agenda >t >s  > Compaq's OpenVMS Diamond Forum > Compaq Customer Centre > Silicon Valley( > 10600 Ridgeview Court  Building CAC13 > Cupertino, CA  95014 >a >o >  > June 26, 2001  >y > Agenda >t > 2 >   8:00              Sign-in and buffet breakfast >i( >   8:35              Welcome to Compaq! >e? >                        Jim Burdick, Director ~ Western Regionl >i6 >   8:45              OpenVMS Strategies and Direction >hH >                                 Rich Marcello, VP and General Manager, High > Performance Systemsr >o' >   9:45             eBusiness Strategya >iI >                                 Wendy Herman, OpenVMS eBusiness Manageri >a. > 10:30             Swiss Stock Exchange Video >i$ > 10:45                        Break >o< > 11:00             AlphaServer Product Update and Direction >3J >                                                 Cathy Stockwell, Manager ~:' > AlphaServer Technology Communications  >sL > 12:00                        Lunch & Topic:  Mission Critical Services - A > Case Study >g4 > 12:45                        Security and Networks > : >                         Dave Raymond ~ FBI Special Agent >n; >   1:45              OpenVMS SAN for eBusiness Integratione >fJ >                                 Karen Fay, Enterprise Storage Consultant >$1 >   2:45                        Customer Dialogue  >t% >   3:00                        Close  >l >r? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messages/ > news:rjvT6.1122$fi2.29367@news.cpqcorp.net...  > > Dear Newsgroup,p > >IJ > > Attached is an invitation to the Diamond Forum in California.  I think > thatI > > I have gotten anything that might be microsoft out of the invitation.hJ > > Please keep in mind that this is a high level session, not a technicalJ > > session.  Rich Marcello will be the keynote.  The next message will be thefE > > agenda.  Please keep in mind that Dale Howard the contact  my newt > supervisor > > and be kind ;;.) > >o > > Sueu > >r. > > __________________________________________& > > Come to the OpenVMS Diamond Forum! > >gK > > You are invited to join an exclusive audience to hear about the "Futureo/ > > Directions and Strategy of Compaq OpenVMS".l > >  > > Compaq Customer Center > >e) > > 10600 Ridgeview Court  Building CAC13c > >   > > Cupertino, California  95014 > >  > >  > >0I > > Beginning with breakfast, this event will share business strategy and E > > product plans, and re-introduce OpenVMS customers to the excitingsF > > developments and long-term commitment to this recognized leader inL > > available, scaleable environments.  Here you will be afforded the uniqueL > > opportunity to meet with Compaq OpenVMS Management to ask questions that( > > will assist you in your IT planning. > >l > >/ > >  > > Tuesday, June 26th, 2001 > >- > > 8 a.m. - 3 p.m.4 > >a. > > As seating is limited, please R.S.V.P. to: > >t$ > > Dale Howard at (603-884-7300) or > >D > > dale.howard@compaq.com > >  > >c > >r >i >w   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:42:27 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in California; Message-ID: <DcgV6.1108$%f.1325330@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>i  8 "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> wrote in message* news:3b255b42$1@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net... > Thanks, Sue! > L > Am looking forward to this event.  I have been able to arrange for several > of my customers to attend. >n > Bill.c >k > -- > Bill Pedersena > CCSS Corporation > CCSS Interactive Learningi > www.VMS.St > 831-336-2708 > ================ >e? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message$/ > news:nS2V6.1300$fi2.35047@news.cpqcorp.net...c > > Updated Agenda > >e > >v" > > Compaq's OpenVMS Diamond Forum > > Compaq Customer Centre > > Silicon Valley* > > 10600 Ridgeview Court  Building CAC13 > > Cupertino, CA  95014  J You will find that it is time well spent. And if you're gonna be at CAC13,K see if you can get Compaq to put on a ZLE demo. Their demo is pretty darneddH impressive (even though they've scaled the Himalaya configuration down a mere 64 CPUs ;-}   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:49:06 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Diamond Forum in CaliforniaL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1106012349070001@user-2iveahd.dialup.mindspring.com>  @ In article <3b255b42$1@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>, "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com> wrote:   > Thanks, Sue! > L > Am looking forward to this event.  I have been able to arrange for several > of my customers to attend.    J By all means, go if you can.  The presentations are mostly excellent.  The- food is free, and excellent, at least in NYC.    -- i Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:46:36 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br $ Subject: Oracle and Sun / not CompaqL Message-ID: <OF9A8DA750.842494BD-ON03256A69.0066F874@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Clicki  H http://www.sun.com/2001-0612/feature/;$sessionid$CNPELJIAADTERAMTA1LU5YQ    J There is no advertisment about Oracle and Compaq  or agreement like this !   Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:51:06 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u! Subject: Re: OT - demise of ML770u8 Message-ID: <0qlbitglhh5e2qe94b9c6qggk8o9s94212@4ax.com>  4 On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:37:46 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:     >>L >My guess (and it is just a guess, of course) is that they're counting everyJ >system they've built. I doubt that all 370 or whatever are revenue ships.  ? Wonder if they also count systems sold to Microsoft. I find the A wording interesting if an accurate quote. "configured for Windows E Datacenter" does not necessarily equal "sold with Windows Datacenter" A if you are selling the box to Microsoft. But then isn't Microsoft. supposed to be all Compaq? >e   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:16:44 -0400r- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>I Subject: OT - Perl Hackere- Message-ID: <3B255F6C.AF60E7D4@bellsouth.net>   ' Cristopher Smith has as his "by-line" :u   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");- '-  D So I thought I would test it on my OpenVMS version of PERL.  Results were interesting...f  3 $PERL -e 'print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perld Hacker.")."\x08!\n");'A Backslash found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "x95\"@& syntax error at -e line 1, near "x95\"A Backslash found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "xc4\"a2 Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort   Let's try this again....   $PERLL? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");t  Not Another Perl Hacker!2    " The things we find interesting....   Michael Austin   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:35:53 -0700,! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comt Subject: OT: W2K bugs D Message-ID: <OFAA1B2482.C3B790FF-ON88256A69.007FE879@foundation.com>  I This is scary. Here's a list of hotfixes for bugs, with related articles, A /since/ service pack 2. There's over 200 of them. Sorry about the & inevitable word wrap, it's a long one.   http://support.microsoft.com/support/servicepacks/windows/2000/win2000_post-sp2_hotfixes.asp?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0&qry=lock%20up&rnk=77&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=WIN2000  G I notice several refer to incompatabilities between W2K and other OS's.eG This surprises me. Not that they existed, but that MS fixed them... ;-)    Shanee   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:06:25 GMTo$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>1 Subject: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...h) Message-ID: <3B26BD0F.39872606@wi.rr.com>    All:  H On Monday I shipped two SW800s full of 1GB, 2GB, and 4GB drives to Great Lakese> Computer.  (I think there were even some 9GB drives in there).  H If you want one of our old drives (a number of folks emailed me directly asking for oneC or two at a time), you can contact Great Lakes.  The prices for theu drives are as follows:l     RZ26 - $25.00a   RZ28 - $45.00a   RZ29 - $80.00t  C I also sold G.L. two CIPCAs, a star coupler, a perfectly good H9A10o cabinet with PDU andG lots of filler panels, a couple of working Infoservers and some RRD42s.-
 The SW800sF were shipped with all their shelves, power supplies, cables and HSJ52s intact.y  G If you need some spares for work or just a few drives to round out yourn hobbyist system,0 give them a call.  The number is (616) 698-1100.  
 -Scott :^)  D p.s.  I also sent over a whole pile of 45-meter CI cables (the thick ones) in case someone is" building a CI cluster at home. ;^)   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 20:15:44 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) 5 Subject: Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...3, Message-ID: <1wZFqacTcVEU@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  * In article <3B26BD0F.39872606@wi.rr.com>, )    Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:m > J > If you want one of our old drives (a number of folks emailed me directly > asking for one1 > or two at a time), you can contact Great Lakes.o  @    But only if you live in the US, Great Lakes doesn't appear toC want to do business internationally ( at least they never responded C to my emails when I asked for pricing on a DS20 a few months ago ).l  6    Too bad you didn't ship them to Island Computer :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:21:27 GMT:( From: Terry Kennedy <terry@gate.tmk.com>3 Subject: Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderablec' Message-ID: <GEtxnr.4I4@spcuna.spc.edu>   5 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:rK > The SN-PBXGF-AB (3DLabs Oxygen VX1) is now supported on the  DS10, DS10L,1; > DS20, DS20E, ES40, and  XP1000 systems under VMS and UNIX5 >e8 > SN-PBXGF-AB 3D Lab, Oxygen, VX1 32MB PCI Graphics Card  G   Great! However, that part number doesn't show up as an orderable part>E yet. In fact, search.compaq.com only finds it in 3 places - the GS80,s) GS160, and GS320 supported options lists.a  E   If this is an oversight, can you have the apropriate heads aligned, E and if it "just takes some time", do you have any idea how much time?c   	Thanks,4         Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com5         terry@tmk.com             Jersey City, NJ USAx   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:26:14 -0400u5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> / Subject: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderablen3 Message-ID: <SSnV6.1346$fi2.38247@news.cpqcorp.net>e  I The SN-PBXGF-AB (3DLabs Oxygen VX1) is now supported on the  DS10, DS10L, 9 DS20, DS20E, ES40, and  XP1000 systems under VMS and UNIXt  6 SN-PBXGF-AB 3D Lab, Oxygen, VX1 32MB PCI Graphics Card  * Maximum Allowed Per System:      1 (DS10L)D                                                             3 (DS10)=                                                             4  (XP1000/DS20/E/ES40)  , Minimum SRM Console Version Required:   V6.0  B Minimum Operating System Version Required:  VMS V7.1-2, Unix V4.0F   Please Note:  1 1. The following OpenVMS Patch Kits are required:oE             OpenVMS V7.1-2:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS712_VX1-V0100--4.PCSIeE             OpenVMS V7.2-1:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_VX1-V0100--4.PCSIeD             OpenVMS V7.2-1H1:  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721H1_VX1-V0100--4.PCSI  )     Directly supported in V7.3 and later.   K 2. The following Unix Patch Kits are required: (Unix V5.0 is not supported) -             V4.0F:  DUV40FAS0005-20010201.TARA-             V4.0G: T64V40GAS0002-20010111.TAR -             V5.0A: T64V50AAS0003-20010523.TARn.             V5.1:    T64V51AS0002-20001204.TAR   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:02:05 GMTw= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 3 Subject: Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderable 0 Message-ID: <009FD6A6.D128BEAD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <SSnV6.1346$fi2.38247@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:sJ >The SN-PBXGF-AB (3DLabs Oxygen VX1) is now supported on the  DS10, DS10L,: >DS20, DS20E, ES40, and  XP1000 systems under VMS and UNIX >c7 >SN-PBXGF-AB 3D Lab, Oxygen, VX1 32MB PCI Graphics Card  >n+ >Maximum Allowed Per System:      1 (DS10L)mE >                                                            3 (DS10) > >                                                            4 >(XP1000/DS20/E/ES40)j >:- >Minimum SRM Console Version Required:   V6.0d >mC >Minimum Operating System Version Required:  VMS V7.1-2, Unix V4.0F  > 
 >Please Note:g >s2 >1. The following OpenVMS Patch Kits are required:F >            OpenVMS V7.1-2:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS712_VX1-V0100--4.PCSIF >            OpenVMS V7.2-1:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_VX1-V0100--4.PCSIE >            OpenVMS V7.2-1H1:  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721H1_VX1-V0100--4.PCSIu > * >    Directly supported in V7.3 and later. >NL >2. The following Unix Patch Kits are required: (Unix V5.0 is not supported). >            V4.0F:  DUV40FAS0005-20010201.TAR. >            V4.0G: T64V40GAS0002-20010111.TAR. >            V5.0A: T64V50AAS0003-20010523.TAR/ >            V5.1:    T64V51AS0002-20001204.TARs >  >a >  >   H Will this card work in a 1200?  Sheesh.  I'd give up a quart of blood toI have a decent card -- hell, any card -- that will function in this damned ) IMHO intentionally brain-damaged machine!o   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            .O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:19:44 -0400o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 3 Subject: Re: Oxygen VX1 now supported and orderableu3 Message-ID: <wxpV6.1365$fi2.38818@news.cpqcorp.net>s  I >Will this card work in a 1200?  Sheesh.  I'd give up a quart of blood tooJ >have a decent card -- hell, any card -- that will function in this damned* >IMHO intentionally brain-damaged machine! >U  3 No.  The code is tuned for EV6, and dense IO space.e    . Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote in message' <009FD6A6.D128BEAD@SendSpamHere.ORG>...eF >In article <SSnV6.1346$fi2.38247@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:2K >>The SN-PBXGF-AB (3DLabs Oxygen VX1) is now supported on the  DS10, DS10L,h; >>DS20, DS20E, ES40, and  XP1000 systems under VMS and UNIX" >>8 >>SN-PBXGF-AB 3D Lab, Oxygen, VX1 32MB PCI Graphics Card >>, >>Maximum Allowed Per System:      1 (DS10L)F >>                                                            3 (DS10)? >>                                                            4  >>(XP1000/DS20/E/ES40) >>. >>Minimum SRM Console Version Required:   V6.0 >>D >>Minimum Operating System Version Required:  VMS V7.1-2, Unix V4.0F >> >>Please Note: >>3 >>1. The following OpenVMS Patch Kits are required: G >>            OpenVMS V7.1-2:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS712_VX1-V0100--4.PCSI G >>            OpenVMS V7.2-1:       DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_VX1-V0100--4.PCSInF >>            OpenVMS V7.2-1H1:  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721H1_VX1-V0100--4.PCSI >>+ >>    Directly supported in V7.3 and later.  >>B >>2. The following Unix Patch Kits are required: (Unix V5.0 is not
 supported)/ >>            V4.0F:  DUV40FAS0005-20010201.TAR0/ >>            V4.0G: T64V40GAS0002-20010111.TAR:/ >>            V5.0A: T64V50AAS0003-20010523.TARs0 >>            V5.1:    T64V51AS0002-20001204.TAR >> >> >> >> >tI >Will this card work in a 1200?  Sheesh.  I'd give up a quart of blood to-J >have a decent card -- hell, any card -- that will function in this damned* >IMHO intentionally brain-damaged machine! >: >--V3 >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001$ VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > J >city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.s   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 02:38:30 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: PCSI niggle- Message-ID: <87ae3d35nd.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  : hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) writes:  ^ > In article <87lmn2vajx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  E > >One small detail with PCSI, it asks if you want the defaults, THENeE > >asks if you want to see them. Could this order be reversed please?   B > I assume "niggle" means something minor.  In any case, I'll pass0 > this along to the developers, but no promises.  C > Ir you say YES to "all the defaults" and also say YES to "want to D > see", then the "all the defaults" question repeats, so you CAN getE > things in the order you request -- it just takes an extra responce.   C > ..in fact, you can "loop" through these question as many times as  > you wish.e  A Yes, checked that. It is a 'niceness' fix, no more. Hence niggle.    -- x< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov g   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:54:52 -0400 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>) Subject: Press release - Digital networks 3 Message-ID: <13qV6.1368$fi2.38745@news.cpqcorp.net>a    Logo's removed by Sue Skonetski.       To Valued Compaq Customers,       & This is an update to let you know that  ( DIGITAL NETWORKS HAS INTRODUCED FOUR NEW  / PRODUCTS FOR ENTERPRISE NETWORKING APPLICATIONS   . That Offer Unrivaled Investment Protection and  1 Worldwide Service and Support at a Low Total Costt      J Digital Networks, the leader in networking products for the enterprise andJ workgroup environments, announced four new products along with service and? support from Compaq Global Services, the world leader in global I multi-technology services. The DNmultilayer 1000, DNswitch, DECserver 732nK and DECswitch 90 FE are all immediately available and shipping to customers C through a worldwide channel of distribution including Compaq Global_	 Services._      F As you may know, Digital Networks is the former networking division ofG Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC), and was launched as an independentdG company last year. Digital Networks is delivering reliable and scalable F networking solutions to over one million end users worldwide includingC Blockbuster Video, Fingerhut, WorldCom, the VA Hospital and Compaq.w  E Digital Networks supports the worldwide installed base of DEC networknF equipment users with products and services to extend the life of theirL network infrastructure. With over one million DECservers, 100,000 DEChub 90sL and 50,000 MultiSwitch 900 chassis' installed today, Digital Networks serves! a large, loyal base of customers.   F Today's economic climate presents an excellent opportunity for DigitalL Networks' value-oriented networking products; which are reliable, long-livedG and easily adapt to changes in technology and business requirements. ISeL professionals are searching for ways to make the best technology investmentsL moving forward. Existing customers can draw more value out of their networksJ through upgrades and expansion with Digital Networks products, rather thanK completely replacing their existing equipment; and new enterprise customersrH get peace of mind knowing that Digital Networks products will not become	 obsolete.n     New Product OfferingsfJ Among the new product families introduced are the DNmultilayer 1000 familyJ of switch routers for the enterprise and the DNswitch family for workgroupJ environments. Individual products introduced include the DNswitch 800, theE DECserver 732, and the DECswitch 90 Fast Ethernet Switch. All DigitalsB Network products are ideal solutions for enterprise organizations.      I The new DNmultilayer 1000  switch router family consists of products thateC provide high-speed network connectivity in enterprise, LAN, WAN and H metropolitan area (MAN) networks. The DNmultilayer 1800 and 1400 modularI expandable chassis-based products support up to 48 Gigabit Ethernet portshI and 128 10/100 ports, while the fixed configuration DNmultilayer 1200 andlJ 1100 offer high density 10/100 layer 2/3/4 switching with multiple GigabitH Ethernet uplinks. Using Ethernet over OC-48 technology, the DNmultilayerI 1000 family provides continued support for disaster tolerant data centerss* and high performance cluster environments.      F The new DNswitch family of stackable and standalone 10/100 and GigabitH Ethernet switches are ideal for the broadest workgroup environments. The DNswitch 800 is an  F 8-port high-performance gigabit Ethernet workgroup switch suitable forI supporting network-intensive applications and high volume file transfers.y          E The new DECserver 732 is the high performance member of the DECserverDH family - the most reliable access and device-server family on the marketH today with more than one million units installed worldwide. This 32-portC device server is ideal for mission-critical applications in retail,5G manufacturing, telecommuting and office/building automation; connecting/D devices such as security cameras, terminals, modems, cash registers,D laboratory instruments and factory equipment to an Ethernet network.      D Digital Networks also introducing the new DECswitch 90 Fast EthernetF switch - available for customers with the DEChub90 and MultiSwitch 900B platforms, as well as standalone and stacked configurations in theH Multistack System.  The addition of the DECswitch 90 allows customers toK incrementally grow the number of ports and the speed of their network (fromsJ 10Mbps to 100 Mbps), and maximize the value of their current investment inC Digital-branded technology. This new product eliminates the risk ofo: bottleneck that often results from normal business growth.      
 DNservices  H In addition to its impressive array of new products, Digital Networks isL expanding its offering to include a comprehensive portfolio of services thatG can be tailored to meet customers' precise operational requirements and-E business objectives.  Digital Networks now provides its customers and E resellers with customized installation, on-site maintenance, softwaree7 maintenance, technical assistance and warranty support.r      L Digital Networks is continuing its ongoing business relationship with CompaqL Global Services, the leading global provider of computer/networking servicesE and support. Compaq G S services continue to be offered worldwide fornH Digital Networks' entire portfolio of multi-technology network switches,> workgroup switches, access servers, and routers product lines.       Pricing and AvailabilityF The DNmultilayer 1000 family of switch routers offers the best GigabitG pricing in the industry at less than $1500 per Gigabit port. Individual 6 product pricing (minimum configuration) is as follows:  G -          DNmultilayer 1800 (twelve-slot chassis with 8 payload slots)  starts at under $29,000t  F -          DNmultilayer 1400 (eight-slot chassis with 4 payload slots) starts at under $21,000   G -          DNmultilayer 1200 (two-slot chassis) starts at under $11,000-  G -          DNmultilayer 1100 (one-slot chassis) starts at under $10,000r      I The DNswitch family offers the lowest cost per port ($58 per 10/100 port)aF and highest performance in the industry. Products come with a lifetimeL warranty and free clearVISN network management software, making this product family an incredible value. Thep  5 DN Switch 800 pre-configured box is priced at $5,995.g      I The DECserver 732 asynchronous device server is now available for $3,095.  The   L DECswitch 90 is priced at $845 and is now available as a DEChub 90 module, aL MultiSwitch 900 module, or with the purchase of a DETRX as a standalone unitK in the Multistack System.  The DECswitch 90 comes with a one-year warranty,rI which includes telephone support during normal business hours and a 5-dayn advance replacement.      > Further information is available at Digital Networks web site.   www.digitalnetworks.nete  C To receive ongoing information regarding Digital Networks offeringsf  , www.digitalnetworks.net/forms/customers.html      I Digital Networks is the tradename of DNPG, LLC and is not affiliated withfG Compaq Computer Corporation. DIGITAL, DEC and the Digital logo are usedo0 under license from Compaq Computer Corporation..   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 11:49:04 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)i/ Subject: Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CDe3 Message-ID: <hPF9LiFOhY5f@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <9g0i62$7tp$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>, "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.nospaam.com> writes:19 > I'm not familiar with JUMP, but in utilities like JUMP,f6 > many of the logicals used will need to be defined in= > Executive mode.  Your SHOW LOGICAL command was done without-: > the /FULL qualifier, so there is no whay to know whether< > they are in Executive mode or not.  Any logical that needs; > to be secure, i.e. not overridden by a user mode logical,5$ > should be defined with /EXECUTIVE.  8 Yes, I've defined all of the logicals in EXECUTIVE mode.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 02:53:18 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.- Message-ID: <871yop34yp.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:  # > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:s  - > > Problem with large queue lengths on disk.a  E > > We have a situation where we are getting consistent queue lengths-? > > of over 5500 on one specific disk. There is no noticable IO = > > activity on the device, although I suspect I shouldn't beX@ > > surprised at that. I can do a directory search,edit or otherE > > activity without any apparent loss of response. I'm unsure how to D > > remove this queueing activity, or should I just leave it and seeD > > if it sorts itself out? This situation has been ongoing at leastE > > for the whole of this morning, possibly longer although I haven'tv0 > > yet had the opportunity to go back and look.  A > > We have reset the controllers but to no avail. I am trying to  > > avoid a reboot.d  E > More than likely, you DO NOT HAVE queues of the magnitude you claimvB > (or more precisely, that MONITOR claims).  There is s bug in theE > MONITOR utility which incorrectly reports abnormally high I/O queue ? > lengths. There is a patch which takes care of it, but I can't B > remember which one.  I have applied the patch before, and it didD > seem to work, but subsequent to that, I think another patch that I@ > applied (later version) undid it again, and I didn't bother toA > inquire which patch would be needed further to undo the undoingFD > patch. If you have performance advisor running, it will report the  > correct queue lengths for you.  G Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'd high queue lengths with AMDS.    -- (< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,#   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:46:22 +0200e: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.- Message-ID: <3B25BABE.8A927125@volkswagen.de>o  2 The following is from the UPDATE V2.0 Coverletter:    H       o  As    a    result,    I/O    monitoring    tools,    such    asH          MONITOR_DISK/ITEM=QUEUE_LENGT,   would   report  erroneous  andH          increasing values for some multipath devices, even  when  there2          was actually no active I/O on the device.     Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > N > More than likely, you DO NOT HAVE queues of the magnitude you claim (or moreO > precisely, that MONITOR claims).  There is s bug in the MONITOR utility whichnU > incorrectly reports abnormally high I/O queue lengths. There is a patch which takes V > care of it, but I can't remember which one.  I have applied the patch before, and itP > did seem to work, but subsequent to that, I think another patch that I appliedU > (later version) undid it again, and I didn't bother to inquire which patch would bedT > needed further to undo the undoing patch. If you have performance advisor running,3 > it will report the correct queue lengths for you.  >  > HM > # > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:: >  > > cc:M > > bcc:P > > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza > >U- > > Problem with large queue lengths on disk.l > >   > > We have the following setup; > > T > > Alpha 8400 with OpenVMS 7.2-1 and disks on an ESA10000 behind HSZ70's. The disksS > > are mirrored - pairs - on the controller, and form a shadow set on the node [inE1 > > this particular case a single device shadow].c > >uR > > We have a situation where we are getting consistent queue lengths of over 5500S > > on one specific disk. There is no noticable IO activity on the device, although S > > I suspect I shouldn't be surprised at that. I can do a directory search,edit or R > > other activity without any apparent loss of response. I'm unsure how to removeP > > this queueing activity, or should I just leave it and see if it sorts itselfP > > out? This situation has been ongoing at least for the whole of this morning,S > > possibly longer although I haven't yet had the opportunity to go back and look.E > >oQ > > We have reset the controllers but to no avail. I am trying to avoid a reboot.  > >  > > Any suggestions? > >- > > Steve Spires > > OpenVMS Systems Manager: > > Yell Group > >F  > > [Information] -- PostMaster:H > > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beP > > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has beenT > > addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce, distribute or > > use this transmission. > > P > > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee is notL > > intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received thisJ > > transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. > >o > > Thank you.   -- g  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regards    Karl Rohwedder               sC iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig 0A Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843 E  E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de )+          karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.de  DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:51:44 GMTS$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.) Message-ID: <3B26B99E.10BB25CF@wi.rr.com>    Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:  W > If you have performance advisor running, it will report the correct queue lengths forE > you. >S > HM >0  ; How do you get Performance Advisor to run on OpenVMS 7.2-1?S   -Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:05:26 -04000* From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6otq$l92$1@bob.news.rcn.net>>    I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.K Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not with5I the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it's2E job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.'   HM -- Original Message -----h, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsd$ Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.    I > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'  > high queue lengths with AMDS.d >t > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.uB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:13:43 -0400 * From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6p19$lqm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>s    I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.K Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not with I the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it'shE job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.    HM -- Original Message ----- , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms $ Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.    I > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'  > high queue lengths with AMDS.  >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.vB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:14:02 -0400 * From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6p3u$m7g$1@bob.news.rcn.net>C    I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.K Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not with I the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it'swE job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.e   HM -- Original Message -----r, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsa$ Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.    I > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'w > high queue lengths with AMDS.d >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.rB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:11:54 -0400 * From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6p8n$ms9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>l    I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.K Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not with I the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it'seE job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.r   HM -- Original Message -----l, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vmst$ Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.    I > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'p > high queue lengths with AMDS.  >w > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.nB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:16:37 -0400 * From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6p8o$ms9$2@bob.news.rcn.net>n  J You call Computer Associates, promise them your first born, give them lotsJ of cash, and they will send you the current version which yes, run fine on 7.2-1.   HM  / Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message0# news:3B26B99E.10BB25CF@wi.rr.com...o >t >u > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: >rG > > If you have performance advisor running, it will report the correcty queue lengths foro > > you. > >t > > HM > >r >3= > How do you get Performance Advisor to run on OpenVMS 7.2-1?e >t > -Scott >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:17:34 -0400s* From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6pag$n4q$1@bob.news.rcn.net>b    I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.K Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not witheI the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it'skE job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.    HM -- Original Message -----f, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms $ Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.    I > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'a > high queue lengths with AMDS.g >d > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.mB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.J > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,$ >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:21:05 -0400 * From: "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.+ Message-ID: <9g6ph4$o07$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   H Sorry for the many posts.  The newsgroup server claimed to have an error' while receiving, but I guess it didn't.e   HM  3 Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messageN% news:9g6p8n$ms9$1@bob.news.rcn.net...v" > I mis-spoke (mistyped?) earlier.H > Yes, as correctly noted  by Karl Rohwedder (above), the problem is not withK > the MONITOR utility itself, but in some of the images it uses to get it'snG > job done, which are undoubtedly some of the same ones used with AMDS.  >e > HM > -- Original Message -----n. > From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsr& > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:53 PM8 > Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk. >l >lK > > Seems the problem may be in VMS itself, as I have seen the same 'stuck'u! > > high queue lengths with AMDS.  > >  > > --@ > > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,; > > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.nD > >                                              West Australia 60762 > > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.L > > Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,& > >   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov >  >a   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:13:54 +0000 (UTC)o' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)  Subject: Re: Secured FTP+ Message-ID: <9g5832$1ek$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>a  m In article <AEfV6.65966$DG1.10742237@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>, "Dave Pampreen" <davepampreen@home.com> writes:iI >Is there a 3rd party FTP that runs between 2 VMS nodes over the internetf7 >that uses some sort of encryption to protect the data?t > D >I've thought about encrypting it on node a, then FTP to node b thenJ >decrypting it, but I need this to be transparent to my users so that whenF >they push the file from node a to node b, there does not have to be a8 >special routine to decrypt it (I hope that makes sense) >d >cK >I'm running VMS7.2-1 with the latest patched version of TCP/IP Services...5 >d >Dave  >davepampreen@home.com >d >, >   < You can use the VMS SSH client (FISH) to do a poor mans scp.    ; $ FISH /INPUT=inputfile /user=test unix1 "cat > outputfile"i   for VMS to UNIXn   or  L $ FISH /INPUT=inputfile /user=test alpha1 "pipe type sys$input > outputfile"     for VMS to VMS     FISH is available from a   http://www.free.lp.se/fish/s  # You will also need a VMS SSH serverr  , http://kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu/~jonesd/ssh/    ( and to build it the openssl library from   http://www.openssl.org/i      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:53:35 +0100 . From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com>* Subject: Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCXA Message-ID: <FtuV6.3832$0a6.554847@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>.  / steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote in message ...f >  >EL >I'd suspect that Hoff is right in (dare I say) "corporate" terms _and_ thatF >the support site is right for those countries that appear to have theL >resources to do local support of the product.  This was indeed the case forJ >VMS v7.1-1H2.  Engineering support finished during 2000 but local support >in the UK has continued  : Both the US and UK/Europe sites have the same information.K We still intend to get off this as ASAP but neither we, nor our outsourcer,eB had warning of this coming which is why the slight panic from this
 announcement.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:08:27 GMTm2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)* Subject: Re: Steve Hoffman- Support of UCX3 Message-ID: <vpwV6.1402$fi2.39917@news.cpqcorp.net>a  0 :steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote in message ...% :I'd suspect that Hoff is right in...   E   Well, donno if y'all will believe me on this, but I had a telephone F   conversation just this morning with a member of the TCP/IP Services 0   Engineering team and, well, I'm (still) right.  F   My understanding is (still) that TCP/IP Services V4.2 will no longerH   be available with Prior Version Support (PVS) on OpenVMS version V7.* G   after 1-Jul-2001.  You will want to be using V5.0A or V5.1 (with ECO)pK   on OpenVMS V7.*.  Availability of PVS for V4.2 on OpenVMS V6.2 continues.,  F   A couple of updates are apparently now under way, but I do not know E   what the results of the missing updates on the PVS website will be.i  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:33:19 -0400h  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: Streaming of multiple files6 Message-ID: <1010612151020.17800A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ( On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Peter Weaver wrote:  < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3B25AB7A.BB117C07@videotron.ca...F > > One can issue a command such as print header.ps,main.ps,trailer.psD > > and the print job looks as if all three files had been seamlesly > concatenated! > > and printed as a single unit.  > >hE > > Is there a way on VMS to make an application think that its inputl
 > stream is a D > > single file even though the data is coming from multiple files ? > > D > > In other words, must the application handle the end of file from > each file,H > > close that file and open the next file, or is there a way for VMS to	 > do thatt> > > transparently so that the application sees only one file ? > E > If the application can work with SYS$PIPE then you can do something0 > like > B >    $ PIPE TYPE/NOHEAD HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS | application > SYS$PIPE:l > D > But I tried this with PRINT and PRINT did not like using SYS$PIPE. > - > You could also create a temporary file like  > 3 >     $ APPEND HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS TEMP.PSo >     $ PRINT TEMP.PS /DELETEs > F > For some reason I see people who say they want to avoid the overheadG > of creating a temporary file and they use PIPE instead. But IMHO PIPE 6 > is a bigger overhead than creating a temporary file.    C Huh?  If PIPE worked, it would have to work by creating a temporaryhE file, so why try to avoid it?  PRINT doesn't do anything to the filesrE you pass it, except verify that they exist and insert their file ID'slC in a print queue.  It doesn't create files, read them, or move themt7 anywhere.  It certainly doesn't copy them to a printer!c  @ Besides Peter's approach of explicitly creating a temp file, youA could also set up a spooled terminal (use an LTA: terminal if youn= have LAT enabled and the printer isn't local) directed to ther> queue and then COPY (or APPEND) the 3 files to the LTA device.D (I'm not sure if COPY will create 1 temp file and queue it or 3.  ItE depends on if COPY closes and re-opens the output device when it hits C EOF on the input side.  However, APPEND should do the right thing.)e  C (This is simplified for illustration.  RTFCFT[1] for full details.)   0 1) in your LAT$SYSTARTUP.COM, create a lat port:  & $ LCP CREATE PORT LTA101: /APPLICATION  < I don't think you need to set up a node and port for it, but if you do, you can use dummies:   0 $ LCP SET PORT LTA101: /NODE=DUMMY /PORT=ANYPORT  6 2) Set any desired terminal characteristics on LTA101:  4 $ set terminal lta101:/perm/device=unknown/pasthru -?         /width=132/page=60/lowercase/nobroadcast/nodisconnect -c#         /hardcopy/form/tab/eightbit'  B ... or whatever.  (Only important if you have something that looks/ at device characteristics for formatting, etc.)   $ 3) make it spool to your print queue  7 $ set device lta101:/spooled=(sys$print,sys$sysdevice:)    Then to print, just:  - $ APPEND HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS LTA101:f  : (The temp file gets automatically deleted after printing.)  ( [1] Read the fine command file template.   -- e John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:44:39 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: Streaming of multiple files3 Message-ID: <G0SzAOUkm6ja@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  d In article <azqV6.248344$Z2.2865886@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message  C >> In other words, must the application handle the end of file froma > each file,G >> close that file and open the next file, or is there a way for VMS toe	 > do thata= >> transparently so that the application sees only one file ?a > E > If the application can work with SYS$PIPE then you can do something  > like > B >    $ PIPE TYPE/NOHEAD HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS | application > SYS$PIPE:e > D > But I tried this with PRINT and PRINT did not like using SYS$PIPE. >   ? For PRINT, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.r  $ $PRINT HEADER.PS+MAIN.PS+TRAILER.PS   E is the solution.  Other utilities can take advantage of this and most0 which ship with VMS do.  -  H It does require code in the program to distinguish comma separated listsF from plus sign separated lists and to do all the opens and closes, but that's the convention.      F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationE= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:28:42 -0400.- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>g( Subject: Re: Streaming of multiple files4 Message-ID: <azqV6.248344$Z2.2865886@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B25AB7A.BB117C07@videotron.ca...D > One can issue a command such as print header.ps,main.ps,trailer.psB > and the print job looks as if all three files had been seamlesly concatenated > and printed as a single unit.p >.C > Is there a way on VMS to make an application think that its input2 stream is acB > single file even though the data is coming from multiple files ? >eB > In other words, must the application handle the end of file from
 each file,F > close that file and open the next file, or is there a way for VMS to do thatd< > transparently so that the application sees only one file ?  C If the application can work with SYS$PIPE then you can do something  like  @    $ PIPE TYPE/NOHEAD HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS | application	 SYS$PIPE:c  B But I tried this with PRINT and PRINT did not like using SYS$PIPE.  + You could also create a temporary file like   1     $ APPEND HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS TEMP.PSo     $ PRINT TEMP.PS /DELETEc  D For some reason I see people who say they want to avoid the overheadE of creating a temporary file and they use PIPE instead. But IMHO PIPEr4 is a bigger overhead than creating a temporary file.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 11:28:10 -07003 From: paul.j.whapshott@lineone.net (Paul Whapshott)e/ Subject: TCPIP V5.1 ECO1 - Dropping connectionsi= Message-ID: <51f54c31.0106121028.11fa4844@posting.google.com>>  @ I have an Alpha 4100 runing Openvms 7.1-1H2 with TCPIP V5.1 EC01  A Problems are that I upgraded UCX from 4.2 to 5.1 and then applied C ECO1. Occassionaly I and others lose connections to the alpha or ithF appears to hang for 20 or so seconds. Before we upgraded UCX there wasF no problems at all. The network card is a DE500-BA which was installedB 6 weeks ago but this was stable under the previous version of UCX.  A Today it happened again, this time I wass logged into the Console + OPA0: which also hung for 20 or so seconds.s  F Any ideas, I have an Engineer from Compaq who is looking into this but no answers as yet!..   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:34:33 +0100@% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 3 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.1 ECO1 - Dropping connections$* Message-ID: <3B26A709.3379E601@virgin.net>   Paul Whapshott wrote:r  B > I have an Alpha 4100 runing Openvms 7.1-1H2 with TCPIP V5.1 EC01 >IC > Problems are that I upgraded UCX from 4.2 to 5.1 and then appliedoE > ECO1. Occassionaly I and others lose connections to the alpha or it H > appears to hang for 20 or so seconds. Before we upgraded UCX there wasH > no problems at all. The network card is a DE500-BA which was installedD > 6 weeks ago but this was stable under the previous version of UCX. >   H This is the behaviour I see if the DE500-BA and the network switch don'tJ autonegotiate properly. See recent discussions here. Could be other causes3 but worth checking. Try forcing modes at both ends.    >KC > Today it happened again, this time I wass logged into the Consolea- > OPA0: which also hung for 20 or so seconds.h > H > Any ideas, I have an Engineer from Compaq who is looking into this but > no answers as yet!..   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:21:54 +01000. From: "Chris Casey" <chris.casey@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMSA Message-ID: <7UuV6.3990$0a6.588711@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>t  C Christof Brass wrote in message <3B2558AD.ED5C1B4E@infopuls.com>...l  [snip]r  H >> The language CacheObjectScript (formally known as mumps - but better) >> supports the oo paradym.i >> Am I missing something? >bA >I don't see the direct connection with MUMPS. Is MUMPS some sorts >of CacheObjectScript dialect?   In the beginning was mumps.r" ANSI decreed it would be standard., Providers came and made products from Mumps.5 These were DSM, ISM, MSM, GT/m, .... and it was good.   A In the second age the providers lost interest in their offspring.l) It was said that they were old and tired.o, Then a saviour came and it was Intersystems.9 It said give me your products and I will make them whole.a  I In the third age Intersystems said behold, we have a new product and it's, name is Cache.* It is sprung from the womb of ISM and DSM. It is all things to all men.G To those born of the old epoch it looks familiar but with wonderous new-	 features.-9 To new converts we have a new facade and its form is GUI.r   ....K In short - CacheObjectScript is Intersystems brand of mumps with extensionsh and a good marketing edge." Not to take anything away from it.J Old Mumpsters can still use it the way they want to whilst most people who; have grown up with billy boxes will never see past the GUI.n> If people want to use the OO features then they are all there.E If people want to carry on writing monolithic code then that is theiro priviledge. A Most people will use the parts of the system most relevant to ther' application or system being develloped. 7 The beauty is that the two can live in perfect harmony.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:59:38 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>r Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B2690CA.AE33A8E4@infopuls.com>   Chris Casey wrote: > E > Christof Brass wrote in message <3B2558AD.ED5C1B4E@infopuls.com>...e	 >  [snip]  > J > >> The language CacheObjectScript (formally known as mumps - but better) > >> supports the oo paradym.f > >> Am I missing something? > >oC > >I don't see the direct connection with MUMPS. Is MUMPS some sort   > >of CacheObjectScript dialect? >  > In the beginning was mumps.o$ > ANSI decreed it would be standard.. > Providers came and made products from Mumps.7 > These were DSM, ISM, MSM, GT/m, .... and it was good.h > C > In the second age the providers lost interest in their offspring.q+ > It was said that they were old and tired.p. > Then a saviour came and it was Intersystems.; > It said give me your products and I will make them whole.a > K > In the third age Intersystems said behold, we have a new product and it'so > name is Cache., > It is sprung from the womb of ISM and DSM. > It is all things to all men.I > To those born of the old epoch it looks familiar but with wonderous new- > features.-; > To new converts we have a new facade and its form is GUI.t >  > ....M > In short - CacheObjectScript is Intersystems brand of mumps with extensionsD > and a good marketing edge.$ > Not to take anything away from it.L > Old Mumpsters can still use it the way they want to whilst most people who= > have grown up with billy boxes will never see past the GUI.s@ > If people want to use the OO features then they are all there.G > If people want to carry on writing monolithic code then that is their 
 > priviledge. C > Most people will use the parts of the system most relevant to the ) > application or system being develloped.e9 > The beauty is that the two can live in perfect harmony.O  * Thanks. I think MUMPS has change a lot ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:03:58 GMTn, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> Subject: Re: The future of VMS; Message-ID: <ilwV6.18998$lq1.6345303@typhoon.austin.rr.com>   < In message <87elsss76q.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote: .... >  > Serious question;e > A > Does anyoe here consider a 'one language' programmer has even an > moderate idea of programming?  > 7 > Would you be happy to have them bugfixing non-C code?- > L This was my  problem back in the job where I actually got to interview.  AllL the candidates were BS degree with one, at the most two, languages and neverM Fortran.  And I didn't need Comp Sci people, I needed some damn programmers. mJ I didn't care how many diffy equations they could screw.  I wanted to hireH some AS programmers but the company required BS degrees for all softwareK positions (well, actually part of it was the fault of the Air Force and the H way the contract was written).  Course this problem all went away at oneI point.  The company renamed us all from programmers to software engineersb) so there weren't any programmers anymore.d   -- nA Jay E. Morris System Software Specialist, Epi Lab, Brooks AFB, TXtF Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:46:56 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B255870.971BF0C4@infopuls.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > Z > In article <3B246B20.A8AB6758@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >{...snip...}  > > A > >I wonder how many people write RISC assembly language manuallyt( > >today and achieve acceptable results. > # > You're asking two questions here./ > J > 1) I wonder how many people write RISC assembly language manually today? > ; > All of them. :)  How many people write HLL code manually?t > 9 > 2) I wonder how many people achieve acceptable results?d > J > I do.  The code assembles, links and does what it was written to do.  In > my eyes, that's acceptable.m   It is.  H > Do I write wholesale systems in M64?  NO!  When there has been a clearI > need to manipulate the instruction flow and/or the stack in ways that avI > compiler cannot or that the calling standard or the architecture do notfI > encompass, I resort to Macro64.  For example, code to intercept a mode-sI > of-caller system service is written in M64.  It requires a modificationsI > of the instruction flow -- replacement of machine instructions -- and aeJ > program counter relative linkage pointer.  Another injects code into theJ > context of another process for execution (like an AST but without all ofJ > the synchronization restrictions of an AST).  The stack must be accessedJ > to be preserved and restored as well as nearly all of the process's reg-J > ister context.  Find me a HLL which will permit me to do these functions$ > and I will cease writing M64 code.  < Using assembly language that way is perfectly acceptable, in@ fact it is a must within that circumstances. May I add that this= is not what JF implied as to help programmers understand what @ the compiler does. Of course for a tiny part it helps but not in
 the large.  K > What is acceptable, for me, is that all of the above can be accomplished.nK > If your reference to acceptable was meant to mean acceptable performance, K > I have coded with that in mind.  Many of the things I've needed to inter-uL > cept (mode-of-caller SS and various system routines) are called frequentlyK > and need to be "hooked" carefully such as not to interfere with operation M > of VMS nor add any perceptible performance degradation.  A careful study ofdM > the Alpha ARM helps to fulfill this requirement.  For example, all forms ofSL > the jump instruction can transfer execution to another location in the in-L > struction stream, a careful analysis of which form (JMP, JSR, RET, JSR_Co-B > routine) to use is important when it comes to branch prediction.  : To emphasise what I stated: this type of usage of assembly language is perfect. >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM: > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:47:57 +02002) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>f Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B2558AD.ED5C1B4E@infopuls.com>   Chris Casey wrote: > E > Christof Brass wrote in message <3B23F276.107CA5D1@infopuls.com>...n > >> [snip]s > >>6 > >> I obviously did not put my points clearly enough.? > >> Cache, (the new mumps) is fully OO (if you want it to be).mC > >> As far as I know all of the standard OO features are included.fM > >> I am suprised that you did not pick this up from the Web site but I haver= > >> not had a good look around since it has been redesigned.l > > B > >Of course Cach is oo. This is obvious from their examples. ButB > >the language you use has to support this technique also, hasn't > >it? > G > The language CacheObjectScript (formally known as mumps - but better)0 > supports the oo paradym. > Am I missing something?,  @ I don't see the direct connection with MUMPS. Is MUMPS some sort of CacheObjectScript dialect?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:59:42 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>P Subject: Re: The future of VMS+ Message-ID: <3B255B6E.160FB82@infopuls.com>y   Bob Koehler wrote: > Z > In article <3B214A9A.11332C34@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >v1 > > I learned that FORTRAN does't offer recursivef > > functions/procedures?  > D > You're about 10 years out of date.  Fortran 90 includes recursion. > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporations? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge  # This might well be the right guess.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 02:03:19 +0200i) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n Subject: Re: The future of VMS, Message-ID: <3B255C47.12D1791C@infopuls.com>  ) On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 07:04:15PM +0010,e& paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:A > >I wonder how many people write RISC assembly language manually ( > >today and achieve acceptable results. >l! > I would suggest VAXman for one.f   :-)   K > I would hope all the people who write the back ends for the compilers forPQ > another large group.  (Does this sentence mean that VAXman is a large group :-),   < I specifically would exclude these people because they don't write assembly; language themselves, instead they let the compiler emit theA
 instructions.e? Of course they know the instruction set but as you might know ap modern@ "optimising" compiler uses tables which gives each instruction a	 weight to ? decide which combination is the fastest. If the instruction sets is sufficientlyc> complex even the compiler constructor has no chance to predict which code will  result.a   N > Outside these, you're probably right -- few.  But, I don't think it detractsR > from JFs comment about knowing assembler.  I learnt many Fortran "techniques" byQ > understanding IBM, CDC and VAX assembler, though I've never had a need to writerK > it.  RISC *is* (to me) a different story, and benchmarking code is easier L > (benchmarking was always used though, since change of instructions did notL > necessarily show the efficiency).  I have been amazed at how RISC compiled; > routines often make "bad" numerical practices run faster.@  4 Your last sentence could be used against you and JF.6 I think it's much more important to learn the level of abstraction right>@ than to understand HW and assembly language. If you want to be a	 very goodl< 3GL programmer you only have to know what constructs of your
 language have 9 a severe speed penalty. Writing clean sources in a 3GL PLn doesn't require : the knowledge of any assembly language. This can be easily proved by lookinge; at the idea behind 3GL PLs: abstraction from HW. If it werea necessary to8 understand the underlying HW the PL wouldn't implemented
 correctly.@ Especially if you think about compiling the same source for CISC	 and RISC.t   > Regards, Paddy >E > Paddy O'Brien, > Transmission Development,t > TransGrid, > PO Box A1000, Sydney South,m > NSW 2000, AustraliaM >  > Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 > Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050( > Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au >sO > Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people, = > but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.- >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:14:50 +0200A% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>  Subject: Re: The future of VMS. Message-ID: <9g4q2q$322$1@info.service.rug.nl>  < "Hunter Goatley" <goathunter@goatley.com> wrote in message =+ news:3b24d57a.245534189@news.process.com..."G > There are still valid reasons for using that, though, just to avoid =s symbols.J > One is that DCL$PATH doesn't exist in older versions of VMS.  Also, if = you'reC > managing a system and want users to be able to define their own =s
 DCL$PATH, butuI > still have command XXX, this is a way to do it that doesn't rely on a =l logicali > or symbol definition.o  @ What we do to allow users and system managers to use DCL$PATH isF that in the system startup file we define DCL$PATH as a searchlist forA DCL_PATH_SYSTEM: and DCL_PATH_USER: and we define DCL$PATH_SYSTEM C as a list of directories of which we as system managers think are =h usefull.5 (These are defined in the system logical name table.)aE We instruct our users to define DCL_PATH_USER for their own list of =l directories.C (Of course this could be enhanced by also adding a DCL_PATH_GROUP.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:53:33 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>nB Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS), Message-ID: <3B2559FD.42E7A364@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > In article <yJyApIMX$$rb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e8 >  malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:1 > |> In article <9fr1h0$24o1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,P> > |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.education (Bill Gunshannon) writes:: > |> > In article <0XQT6.1188$fi2.30085@news.cpqcorp.net>,< > |> >  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:	 > |> > |>V. > |> > |>   A tool I haven't seen ported: RPM. > |> >K > |> > Considering that no one is packaging VMS software in the RPM format,mJ > |> > what would this buy??  There are already recognized formats for VMSI > |> > installable packages.  What advantage would RPM bring over these??t > |>P > |> Some source code packages seem to be only readily available in .RPM format. > E > Linux mindset.  It only shows a definite desire to keep the code as A > non-portable as possible. (So much for the GNU/GPL philosophy.)  > G > People here do realize that RPM is merely another layer of complexityh( > wrapped around the Unix CPIO program?? > J > And while I have everyone's attention, I have another question regarding- > the direction this project could/should go.  > E > So far, what I have proposed is an undergraduate project(s) to porttE > some usefull Opensource Unix Tool to VMS with a longer term goal of3D > developing detailed porting guidlines that could be used for other > such projects. > G > I have had it suggested that an off-shoot of this could be a graduatefG > level thesis project spcifically targeting defining what is needed tocH > port software int his manner and possible including the development ofF > an abstraction layer to handle the OS level differences.  Comments?? > E > Another idea I had was to have a second and paralel project to takehC > some Opensource Unix Tool, say pdksh, and rewrite it in somethingD: > like Ada.  This offers a number of possible data points.; >   1.  Will it be easier to do than merely porting the C??tA >   2.  Will it offer a stabler program while maintaining all thee& >       functionality of the original.D >   3.  Will it result in a program that is easier to understand and6 >       therefore easier to maintain, modify and port.B > While we no longer use Ada for teaching at the lowere levels, atB > least this years and next years seniors should have gone through4 > the classes that used Ada extensively.  Comments?? > F > This project is definitely moving forward and I see no reason why itG > should not come about.  All that still needs to be determined is whatlF > precisely we should try and get out of it.  And can it become a foot> > in the door, as it were, for OpenVMS and the academic world. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  @ Brilliant idea! If this succeeds the source could eventually fed5 back and replace the original (if it is really bettero@ maintainable and if after the migration building on the original platform isn't too dificult).    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:13:26 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS), Message-ID: <9g5bim$bre@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <rdeininger-1106011410240001@user-2ive6an.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:tI >In article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:g >g > F >> Another idea I had was to have a second and paralel project to takeD >> some Opensource Unix Tool, say pdksh, and rewrite it in something; >> like Ada.  This offers a number of possible data points.f< >>   1.  Will it be easier to do than merely porting the C?? >iG >Good C is likely easier to port to VMS than to rewrite in Ada and theneH >port to VMS.  While Ada is very portable, any software with a lot of OSJ >dependencies will take extra work.  That extra work is probably about the >same for C and Ada. >-0 >Horrible C might best be thrown out, not fixed. > E >As a first guess, a C application where the OS depencencies are welleK >isolated is probably best ported to VMS as C.  If the OS-specific stuff istK >tangled throughout the code, a rewrite might be easier.  In that case, Ada  >is probably less work than C. >p  G Amen to that.  If there are any compiler gurus out there with a lot of  E spare time on their hands, it would be _fantatastic_ if gcc could be w induced to do something like:      gcc -w=portablep  G which would flag every single OS specific piece of code.  Basically it s would have to know:   7  1. what's all the Ansi C functions and definitions areM5  2. what all the user's functions and definitions areg  C and then flag everything else.  I guess it would have to handle thetG definitions during compilation and the function usage when it links. It J would also have to be aware of which functions have OS specific arguments,) notoriously select() and XtAppAddInput().a  C Not a trivial task, but at least it would provide some guidance to o3 developers who have never seen anything but Unix.  t   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech eJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 11:21:49 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)3 Message-ID: <lDMfAjhl$Ff7@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  a In article <9g5bim$bre@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:e  I > Amen to that.  If there are any compiler gurus out there with a lot of yG > spare time on their hands, it would be _fantatastic_ if gcc could be - > induced to do something like:1 >  >   gcc -w=portabley > I > which would flag every single OS specific piece of code.  Basically it   > would have to know:3 > 9 >  1. what's all the Ansi C functions and definitions areo7 >  2. what all the user's functions and definitions are  > E > and then flag everything else.  I guess it would have to handle theaI > definitions during compilation and the function usage when it links. ItoL > would also have to be aware of which functions have OS specific arguments,+ > notoriously select() and XtAppAddInput().  > E > Not a trivial task, but at least it would provide some guidance to d5 > developers who have never seen anything but Unix.  n  ) A lot of this is done on VMS by Compaq C. ; Doesn't the version of Compaq C for Linux do this as well ?   N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:17:32 GMTn1 From: bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie) & Subject: Unix equivalent of set verify4 Message-ID: <gqxV6.15$q03.2351@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>   Hi,wM Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will 0O know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY on fP an AIX system using the Korn shell. I know how to do it whan invoking a script, P ie ksh -v scriptname or ksh -xv scriptname, but I can't find any information on K how to do it from within a script i.e., using f$verify(value) for when the yC shell script has the execute permission set and is invoked directlya  ! Any answers would be appreciated.n   thanks Bernie.e   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 20:08:28 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) * Subject: Re: Unix equivalent of set verify3 Message-ID: <DlGjDSjOsnoj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <gqxV6.15$q03.2351@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie) writes: > Hi,tO > Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will  Q > know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY on lR > an AIX system using the Korn shell. I know how to do it whan invoking a script, R > ie ksh -v scriptname or ksh -xv scriptname, but I can't find any information on M > how to do it from within a script i.e., using f$verify(value) for when the -E > shell script has the execute permission set and is invoked directlyi > # > Any answers would be appreciated.  >   	 	$ set -ox   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 20:16:48 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) * Subject: Re: Unix equivalent of set verify3 Message-ID: <Di+UE0vryrHE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <gqxV6.15$q03.2351@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie) writes: > Hi,dO > Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will mQ > know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY on lR > an AIX system using the Korn shell. I know how to do it whan invoking a script, R > ie ksh -v scriptname or ksh -xv scriptname, but I can't find any information on M > how to do it from within a script i.e., using f$verify(value) for when the tE > shell script has the execute permission set and is invoked directlyg > # > Any answers would be appreciated.- >   9 	It had been so long, I began to doubt.  Here is a tip onn 	xtrace:  I http://www.bluesreview.com/Oreilly/unix/ksh/ch09_01.htm#KSH-CH-9-SECT-1.1a  K The xtrace option is more powerful: it echoes command lines after they haveRN been through parameter substitution, command substitution, and the other stepsL of command-line processing (as listed in Chapter Chapter 7, Input/Output and& Command-line Processing). For example:     $ set -o xtrace  $ fred=bob t
 + fred=bob $ print "$fred"  + print bobp bobt $ ls -l $(whence emacs)  + whence emacs + ls -l /usr/share/bin/emacsA -rwxr-xr-x  1 root      1593344 Apr  8  1991 /usr/share/bin/emacsb $    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:43:41 GMTt1 From: bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie)-* Subject: Re: Unix equivalent of set verify4 Message-ID: <xrAV6.29$q03.5521@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>   Thanks, N In article <Di+UE0vryrHE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org  says...e >r6 >In article <gqxV6.15$q03.2351@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, 3 bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie) writes:o >> Hi,P >> Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will O >> know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY   on dK >> an AIX system using the Korn shell. I know how to do it whan invoking a I script, P >> ie ksh -v scriptname or ksh -xv scriptname, but I can't find any information  on iN >> how to do it from within a script i.e., using f$verify(value) for when the F >> shell script has the execute permission set and is invoked directly >> i$ >> Any answers would be appreciated. >>   >uA >        It had been so long, I began to doubt.  Here is a tip onh >        xtrace: >iJ >http://www.bluesreview.com/Oreilly/unix/ksh/ch09_01.htm#KSH-CH-9-SECT-1.1 >-L >The xtrace option is more powerful: it echoes command lines after they haveO >been through parameter substitution, command substitution, and the other stepsFM >of command-line processing (as listed in Chapter Chapter 7, Input/Output andn' >Command-line Processing). For example:l >o >w >$ set -o xtrace   >$ fred=bob  >+ fred=bob  >$ print "$fred"   >+ print bob >bob >$ ls -l $(whence emacs)   >+ whence emacs. >+ ls -l /usr/share/bin/emacs.B >-rwxr-xr-x  1 root      1593344 Apr  8  1991 /usr/share/bin/emacs >$ >-$ >                                Rob >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:31:14 GMT  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>& Subject: Re: V7.3 backup "improvement"' Message-ID: <3B269831.CC9F6CC2@home.nl>    John Santos wrote:  4 > Speaking of C programmers who just don't get it...2 > (The worst insult I can think of at the moment.)  H True, C is a kind of universal assembler. Programming in assembler meansD you have to know exaclty what you are doing, so you should be a veryI skilled programmer. Otherwise use a high-level programming language wherelI the compiler will prevent you for at least quite a lot of errors. JudginglH from the quality of many programs, most C-programmers realy should limit2 themselves to using a high-level program language.       >u > C > VAX VMS V7.3 has acquired the mis-feature (apparently originatingcA > in an F11X ECO on Alpha VMS V7.2-1), that the modification datebD > of a directory gets changed pseudo randomly when files are createdC > or deleted in the directory.  (The mod date gets changed wheneverk2 > the directory size (not allocation) is changed.)  B Can you clarify please with a few examples what exactly you mean ?G I suppose that when the size of the directory changes, the mod date hascE to be adjusted. After all the directory file is modified. Do you meana) that the mod date/time is almost random ?t           >, >d@ > I reported this several months ago, both to Compaq support and@ > on this news group, but Compaq seemed unable to understand whyB > this is a bug.  (Since a "Feature" is a documented bug, and this- > isn't documented, it is *NOT* a "feature".)r >gE > Since then, an article has appeared on the DIA support system, thatoG > seems to indicated that Compaq support if not engineering does regardaC > this as a bug, but their recommended workaround for the resultingcB > non-usefulness of incremental backups is to use "/NOINCREMENTAL"C > on the BACKUP command, which of course presents its own problems.a >o > NOW THE BIG PRIZE!!s >dE > V7.3 has introduced a new bug - "/NOINCREMENTAL" is no longer validm3 > when combined with "/SINCE=BACKUP"!  You now get:g >e* > $ backup/mod/sinc=backup/noincremental -3 > du0:[john...]*.*;* du0:[0,0]t.bck/save/log/verifygA > %BACKUP-I-INVQUAL, qualifier /NOINCREMENTAL is ignored with the  >    /SINCE=BACKUP operation, > %BACKUP-S-COPIED, copied DU0:[JOHN]AA.AA;1 > ...a9 > (and proceeds to backup all the files in my directory.). >s; > $ HELP/MESSAGE INVQUAL says the same thing in more words.C >n? > Supposedly this is to protect you from the exact same restoren> > problems that the original change in behaviour of BACKUP was> > made for, and that /NOINCREMENTAL was created to work around. > because the cure was worse than the disease. >. > Historical sequence: >s: > 1) Discover rare pathalogical sequence that makes BACKUP7 > restores involving image plus incremental backups not  > function properly. >-; > 2) Change BACKUP's /MOD/SINCE=BACKUP to save far too many ( > files in order to work around problem. >c; > 3) In response to customer complaints about the enourmousi9 > size of incremental backups (rendering them essentiallyt; > useless, since they shortly are no faster than full image < > backups and in some cases (disks with aliased directories): > are actually slower than image backups), invent a series9 > of hacks to restore the prior behaviour, culminating ins > /NOINCREMENTAL.s > ; > 4) Introduce a new bug, essentially guaranteeing that allc8 > incremental backups will be full-volume backups, never< > documenting the new behaviour or justifying it in any way. >r< > 5) Disable the use of "/NOINCREMENTAL" in the only context > where it was useful. >A > --
 > John Santosr > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:34:03 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>& Subject: Re: V7.3 backup "improvement"6 Message-ID: <1010612195152.17800A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Dirk Munk wrote:t   >  >  > John Santos wrote: > 6 > > Speaking of C programmers who just don't get it...4 > > (The worst insult I can think of at the moment.) > J > True, C is a kind of universal assembler. Programming in assembler meansF > you have to know exaclty what you are doing, so you should be a veryK > skilled programmer. Otherwise use a high-level programming language whereeK > the compiler will prevent you for at least quite a lot of errors. Judging9J > from the quality of many programs, most C-programmers realy should limit4 > themselves to using a high-level program language. >  >  >  > >o > >tE > > VAX VMS V7.3 has acquired the mis-feature (apparently originating>C > > in an F11X ECO on Alpha VMS V7.2-1), that the modification dateCF > > of a directory gets changed pseudo randomly when files are createdE > > or deleted in the directory.  (The mod date gets changed wheneverS4 > > the directory size (not allocation) is changed.) > D > Can you clarify please with a few examples what exactly you mean ?I > I suppose that when the size of the directory changes, the mod date has G > to be adjusted. After all the directory file is modified. Do you meanh+ > that the mod date/time is almost random ?h  D When the size of the directory changes, the dir's mod date is set to the current time.P  F What do you mean, "HAS TO BE ADJUSTED"?  No such thing is true.  UntilE ALPHA VMS V7.2-1+ECO and VAX VMS V7.3, *THE MOD DATE DID NOT CHANGE*. F Never in the history of VMS was changing the contents of the directoryD (including changing the size, because creating/deleting files in theF directory implicitly changes its size) caused the directory's mod dateE to change.  The mod date only changed when you did something explicitiB to the directory, such as rename it or change its protection code.  D By "random", I mean that the directory's mod date does not change atB any predictable time.  You can create and delete hundreds of filesE in a directory over an indefinite period of time without out changingeD its mod date.  It all depends on whether the XQP decides it needs toE expand or shrink the directory.  Since the internals of the directoryeF structure are supposed to be opaque to the user, this is unpredictableE and hence random.  (I've seen active directories go for weeks withoutnE getting their mod dates changed, and seen other directories get theire' mod dates changed several times a day.)s  H The reason the mod date is important is the change to BACKUP in VMS V6.2E (IIRC) regarding incremental backups.  If the directory's mod date isyG more recent than its backup date, all files in the directory (includinguG any subdirectories) get backed up.  According to the FAQ (item MGMT35), D this was done specifically so that incremental restores will work ifH a directory was renamed.  (Renaming changes the mod date, as it should.)E However, the simple act of creating files in a directory DOES NOT andeF NEVER DID break incremental restores, so their is no reason to triggerC the BACKUP behaviour because of it.  But this is precisely what thecB change to the XQP does.  The effect is to remove the long-standing& VMS ability to do incremental backups.  D For systems with gigabytes of data, this is of major significance.  E E.G. a disk-to-disk backup of thousands of mostly static files on an aA Alpha 4100 dual-processor system with HSZ70-based SCSI disks went B from a couple of minutes to well over an hour.  The system offlineE time went from about an hour and 15 mins. per day, which they weren'ts@ really happy with, to 2:25, which really pissed them off, solelyB because of file creations in a higher level directory which causedE backup to back up every file instead of the handful that had changed.n  G Another example:  Our development cluster has 3 nodes (1 VAX, 2 Alpha),sA and about 10 disks ranging from an RF35 to a bunch of RZ29's.  WeeA backup each disk to tape (image backup) every week, mostly to 8mmpB tapes (except the VAX system disk, which we back up to the TK70 onE the VAX so we can restore it locally on the VAX if we lose the disk.)e  G We do an incremental every night of all the disks to a single 8mm tape.?F (Someone inserts a fresh tape in the drive every day before going homeB and a self-resubmitting batch job runs at 3 AM to do the backups.)E This used to work fine, there were never enough changed files to fillrC the 8mm drive.  Now, it often takes 2 or 3 tapes, because every now C and then someone creates a new top-level directory that changes thetE size of 000000.dir on one of the RZ29's and causes the whole thing toaA get backed up.  Or more likely, many lower-level directories have E changed size since last weekend and they and all their subdirectoriesaF get backed up.  By Friday, more than half of our disk farm is eligibleE for incremental backups under the new rules, though only a handful ofc@ directories have had any significant change (such as a rename orC protection code change).  The V6.2 rules were using a sledge-hammerl@ to kill a fly, although the fly did have a very slight chance ofB carrying West Nile virus.  The new rules are using a tactical nuke for the same purpose.f  B > > I reported this several months ago, both to Compaq support andB > > on this news group, but Compaq seemed unable to understand whyD > > this is a bug.  (Since a "Feature" is a documented bug, and this/ > > isn't documented, it is *NOT* a "feature".)o > >rG > > Since then, an article has appeared on the DIA support system, thatwI > > seems to indicated that Compaq support if not engineering does regardgE > > this as a bug, but their recommended workaround for the resultinglD > > non-usefulness of incremental backups is to use "/NOINCREMENTAL"E > > on the BACKUP command, which of course presents its own problems.  > >  > > NOW THE BIG PRIZE!!* > >*G > > V7.3 has introduced a new bug - "/NOINCREMENTAL" is no longer valid-5 > > when combined with "/SINCE=BACKUP"!  You now get:m > >g, > > $ backup/mod/sinc=backup/noincremental -5 > > du0:[john...]*.*;* du0:[0,0]t.bck/save/log/verify C > > %BACKUP-I-INVQUAL, qualifier /NOINCREMENTAL is ignored with the  > >    /SINCE=BACKUP operation. > > %BACKUP-S-COPIED, copied DU0:[JOHN]AA.AA;1 > > ...g; > > (and proceeds to backup all the files in my directory.)s > >t= > > $ HELP/MESSAGE INVQUAL says the same thing in more words._ > >tA > > Supposedly this is to protect you from the exact same restore @ > > problems that the original change in behaviour of BACKUP was@ > > made for, and that /NOINCREMENTAL was created to work around0 > > because the cure was worse than the disease. > >  > > Historical sequence: > >n< > > 1) Discover rare pathalogical sequence that makes BACKUP9 > > restores involving image plus incremental backups notc > > function properly. > >s= > > 2) Change BACKUP's /MOD/SINCE=BACKUP to save far too manyf* > > files in order to work around problem. > >l= > > 3) In response to customer complaints about the enourmous ; > > size of incremental backups (rendering them essentiallyo= > > useless, since they shortly are no faster than full image > > > backups and in some cases (disks with aliased directories)< > > are actually slower than image backups), invent a series; > > of hacks to restore the prior behaviour, culminating inr > > /NOINCREMENTAL.e > > = > > 4) Introduce a new bug, essentially guaranteeing that all=: > > incremental backups will be full-volume backups, never> > > documenting the new behaviour or justifying it in any way. > >n> > > 5) Disable the use of "/NOINCREMENTAL" in the only context > > where it was useful. > >g > > -- > > John Santos.  > > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > > 781-861-0670 ext 539 >  >  >    -- e John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:40:03 +0200 ) From: "Jan Smit" <jboerkamp@nospam.hr.nl> # Subject: Re: Virtual Memory problemt1 Message-ID: <9g52j7$bqq$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>d  H The problem is solved. We didn't supply an initial_size at  the creation time. This gives a restrictedoE memorysize of +/- 10000 blocks. Supllying an initial size(20.0000) in  PPL$Create_vm_zone solved- the problem.   Thanks all  for your hints  ? <Had to knip otherwise my newsserver wouldn't accept the reply>c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:13:13 -0400m- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>@ Subject: VMS5.1 and INIT, Message-ID: <3B2677D9.D66C7D4@bellsouth.net>   VAX 3400 TQK70 (TK70)   Problem: $init mua0: testH %INIT-F-ACCVIO access violation reason mask=34  PC=03C00000 PSL=00000003  F New tape, old tape does not matter. Tape drive and controller replace.F Same results.  With an already initialized tape BACKUP will write  andG verify a new backup saveset. Obviously the client dumped support a LONGoD time ago.  Good news is that they have just ordered a new DS10 AlphaB with anticipated shipment in 4-6 weeks.  Tape is  for daily/weekly backups.  ? Any ideas.. it has been many years since I had to deal with 5.1-   Michael Austin DBA Consultant   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 21:09:25 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>y Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT. Message-ID: <3b268531@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  ? When you say, NEW TAPE, you mean out of the box, nothing on it?   J Have you tried simply mounting a tape FOREIGN and writing to it?  And then trying to INIT the tape?   --
 Bill Pedersen  CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learning  http://www.CCSScorp.comA 831-336-2708 ================  : "Michael Austin" <miaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote in message& news:3B2677D9.D66C7D4@bellsouth.net...
 > VAX 3400 > TQK70 (TK70) >o
 > Problem: > $init mua0: testJ > %INIT-F-ACCVIO access violation reason mask=34  PC=03C00000 PSL=00000003 >iH > New tape, old tape does not matter. Tape drive and controller replace.H > Same results.  With an already initialized tape BACKUP will write  andI > verify a new backup saveset. Obviously the client dumped support a LONGCF > time ago.  Good news is that they have just ordered a new DS10 AlphaD > with anticipated shipment in 4-6 weeks.  Tape is  for daily/weekly
 > backups. >hA > Any ideas.. it has been many years since I had to deal with 5.17 >n > Michael Austin > DBA Consultant >) >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:57:22 GMTd2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT3 Message-ID: <6fwV6.1401$fi2.40084@news.cpqcorp.net>   \ In article <3B2677D9.D66C7D4@bellsouth.net>, Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> writes: :$init mua0: testtI :%INIT-F-ACCVIO access violation reason mask=34  PC=03C00000 PSL=00000003i ..4 :it has been many years since I had to deal with 5.1  G   Please see the OpenVMS FAQ.  Specifically, please see section MGMT38..  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:16:15 -0400w- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>n Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT- Message-ID: <3B2694AE.95800E18@bellsouth.net>    one more tidbit ) $BACKUP/LABEL=TEST *.* mua0:test.bck/save L results in a  positioning error followed by parity error.  Interesting thing: is, this only occurs if the tape has not been initialized.   Michael Austin wrote:   
 > VAX 3400 > TQK70 (TK70) >h
 > Problem: > $init mua0: testJ > %INIT-F-ACCVIO access violation reason mask=34  PC=03C00000 PSL=00000003 >rH > New tape, old tape does not matter. Tape drive and controller replace.H > Same results.  With an already initialized tape BACKUP will write  andI > verify a new backup saveset. Obviously the client dumped support a LONGuF > time ago.  Good news is that they have just ordered a new DS10 AlphaD > with anticipated shipment in 4-6 weeks.  Tape is  for daily/weekly
 > backups. >wA > Any ideas.. it has been many years since I had to deal with 5.1- >r > Michael Austin > DBA Consultant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:22:34 -0400 - From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>1 Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT, Message-ID: <3B26B249.70E8972@bellsouth.net>  N The other - more important tidbit is:  READ THE FAQ!!!!  And guess what!  they: are on 5.1-0.  They will be glad to get to the new Alpha!.  
 Michael A.   MGMT38.   /  INITIALIZE ACCVIO and ANSI tape label support?i  O  A change was made (back in 1988) to (as it was then known) VAX/VMS V5.1-1 that L added support for the then-new ANSI X3.27-1987 magnetic tape label standard.N Prior to the ANSI X3.27-1987 standard, the date field in the ANSI HDR1  recordN permits dates only as far as the end of Year 1999. With ANSI X3.27-1987, datesB through Year 1999 and dates from Years 2000 to 2099 are permitted.  O  Versions of INIT.EXE and MTAACP.EXE from VAX/VMS releases prior to V5.1-1 willnN potentially have problems properly processing ANSI magnetic tapes when Y2K andL later dates are involved - the DCL  INITIALIZE command is known to encounter! access violation (ACCVIO) errors.e  K  The available solutions include upgrades, or setting the date back. Direct J initialization of the tape with the new headers (via $qio) is also clearlyN possible, though the limitation within the old MTAACP.EXE magtape ACP image is not nearly so easy to bypass.o  C                                                 [Hoffman, Dachtera]      Michael Austin wrote:i   > one more tidbit + > $BACKUP/LABEL=TEST *.* mua0:test.bck/saveoN > results in a  positioning error followed by parity error.  Interesting thing< > is, this only occurs if the tape has not been initialized. >T > Michael Austin wrote:i >  > > VAX 3400 > > TQK70 (TK70) > >D > > Problem: > > $init mua0: testL > > %INIT-F-ACCVIO access violation reason mask=34  PC=03C00000 PSL=00000003 > >tJ > > New tape, old tape does not matter. Tape drive and controller replace.J > > Same results.  With an already initialized tape BACKUP will write  andK > > verify a new backup saveset. Obviously the client dumped support a LONGsH > > time ago.  Good news is that they have just ordered a new DS10 AlphaF > > with anticipated shipment in 4-6 weeks.  Tape is  for daily/weekly > > backups. > > C > > Any ideas.. it has been many years since I had to deal with 5.1A > >a > > Michael Austin > > DBA Consultant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:59:42 +0100A% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l/ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLimeA* Message-ID: <3B269EDE.68194439@virgin.net>   David Mathog wrote:i  M > I'm not concerned.  All I ever look at on the Compaq site are VMS pages anda5 > yet Compaq never mails me anything but ads for PCs.O >R  d Yet now in the UK VMS promoting literature from Compaq fairly regularly arrives in the mail. And theH situation here was just like that in the US until maybe 6-12 months ago.   >r  	 > egards,i >e > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu@ > Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, CaltechL > **************************************************************************L > *                                RIP VMS                                 *L > **************************************************************************   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:17:25 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)/ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLimeg, Message-ID: <9g5bq5$bre@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  d In article <NU8V6.248147$Z2.2855518@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:G >If anyone else is concerned by this then www.keylimesoftware.com has as? >privacy page and an option to let you opt out of their spying.w  L I'm not concerned.  All I ever look at on the Compaq site are VMS pages and 3 yet Compaq never mails me anything but ads for PCs.e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech sJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:05:40 GMTn4 From: "Bill Sherwood" <adkpb@small-town-america.com>: Subject: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue9 Message-ID: <UmwV6.4252$v4.228569@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>   L We've had our Xerox Document Centre 332/340ST working on our NT network just fineK for a few months.  Now I am trying to create a print queue on our Vax 4105a F to print to the Xerox and it keeps stalling.  We have several printersG (HP5Si and various HP's) printing via TCP/IP that work fine from our NT1H systems and our Vax system.  I know I'm probably using the wrong port orL missing something obvious, but I'm just not catching what it is.  I'm tryingB to use port 515 with a standard VMS print queue (init /queue) withG "/processor=ucx$telnetsym" and /on="10.1.20.24:515".    I'd r-e-a-l-l-yeH appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully pulled this one off.   Thanks in advance!   -- Bill Sherwood, MCSE+It   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:04:22 -0400d* From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue+ Message-ID: <3B26CA26.FFAD4336@rtfmcsi.com>A   Bill Sherwood wrote:  N > We've had our Xerox Document Centre 332/340ST working on our NT network just > fineM > for a few months.  Now I am trying to create a print queue on our Vax 4105aiH > to print to the Xerox and it keeps stalling.  We have several printersI > (HP5Si and various HP's) printing via TCP/IP that work fine from our NT J > systems and our Vax system.  I know I'm probably using the wrong port orN > missing something obvious, but I'm just not catching what it is.  I'm tryingD > to use port 515 with a standard VMS print queue (init /queue) withI > "/processor=ucx$telnetsym" and /on="10.1.20.24:515".    I'd r-e-a-l-l-yiJ > appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully pulled this one off. >X > Thanks in advance! >x > -- > Bill Sherwood, MCSE+IS  L IIRC, all of Xerox's networked copier/printer equipment uses LPR/LPD and notO reverse telnet printing.  At least, the Fiery DFE DocuColor40 and DocuPrint XXX 1 "monster" copier could only be used with LPR/LPD.,  N You've got your queue configured to do reverse telnet printers [a.k.a. raw TCPK stream printing] to TCP port 515.  This would appear to be the LPD listenerIM port.  Perhaps you should re-create the print queue as an LPR/LPD print queuen and give it a try again...     HTH,   Chucko -- Chuck Choppn  8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.como   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 18:31:22 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <9g5n5q$1a8e$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <2gcmOxunOu97vesRR6RROqVSi6E1@4ax.com>,8  David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: |> lI |> Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,CI |> what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen o |> in 100 years?  A Based on experience as recent as yesterday, they can't accuratelyh@ predict the weather 8 hours in advance.  And looking at 20 years@ of data and thinking they can accurately determine what happened> over the last 20,000 years and predict what is going to happen; over the next 200 years seems like little more than a joke.V   |> lD |>     The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryD |> principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causedI |> by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for < |> the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.  = I also find it most interesting that all of the countries whon> have lower standards of living than we do, mostly because they? were too busy trying to conquer the world or experimenting with ? really bad political systems now want to impose things on us tor> bring us down to their level.  I guess when people talk about 3 "The Green Party" they really mean green with envy.e   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:54:17 -0400b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>,  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B266552.F1AAFB6C@videotron.ca>   David Beatty wrote:nD >     No, I'm not 100% certain.  However, since the Kyoto supporters= > estimate the amount of climate change to be -0.07C if it isg@ > implemented, do you think it's worth the economic impact, thus1 > affecting lifestyle and likely life expectancy?t  M You mean you think it would be a bad thing if Americans were forced to get upbJ and walk to the bus stop instead of drop in their car, press the remote toM open garage door, and use only the muscle in the foot to press on the pedal ?c  F Sorry to rain on your parade, but any changes that are positive to theL environment would result in healthier lifestyles, longer life expectancy andM lower health care costs.  (Not because of the better environment, but becausesL citizens would learn to use their body and by using your body, it works much& better and requires less maintenance).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:03:30 -0400u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <3B26677B.4305582@videotron.ca>a   Bill Gunshannon wrote:? > I also find it most interesting that all of the countries who-, > have lower standards of living than we do,  7 It depends on your definition of "standard of living". I  H Somone whose brain has become handicapped to a point where the person noJ longer knows that they are capable of walking to the convenience store andG must take his/her car there, I don't consider this a higher standard ofeM living. Someone who buys a 20 feet wide TV set with Dolby surround because hePK is affraid to go outside because of the crime rate is not something which Ie% consider a higher standard of living.s  L Standard of living is much more than just what merhandise you can buy. It is also how you can live you life.r  I Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transitsK doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you couldnK consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidentstK while driving, you don't feel guilty if you have a drink after work becausetM you know you're talking the bus back home (instead of being a drunk driver onk roads) etc etc.a  M And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become such,L that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreK confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:18:12 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>n  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <tWgmO0wv+IOJ43ejXv6WvI73Bgxu@4ax.com>  < On 12 Jun 2001 18:31:22 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  3 >In article <2gcmOxunOu97vesRR6RROqVSi6E1@4ax.com>,o9 > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:- >|> J >|> Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,J >|> what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen  >|> in 100 years?$ >uB >Based on experience as recent as yesterday, they can't accuratelyA >predict the weather 8 hours in advance.  And looking at 20 yearsoA >of data and thinking they can accurately determine what happened ? >over the last 20,000 years and predict what is going to happenh< >over the next 200 years seems like little more than a joke. >r >|> E >|>     The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionary0E >|> principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causednJ >|> by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for= >|> the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.o >e> >I also find it most interesting that all of the countries who? >have lower standards of living than we do, mostly because theyW@ >were too busy trying to conquer the world or experimenting with@ >really bad political systems now want to impose things on us to? >bring us down to their level.  I guess when people talk about a4 >"The Green Party" they really mean green with envy. >a >billk  <     My point exactly.  Fred Singer accurately pointed out in; the article at http://www.junkscience.com/news/singer14.htm-< there are four groups interested in solving alleged man-made global warming:   ?     1.  Upper-middle class overanxious, who are truly concerned ;          and have no hidden agenda, but are naive regarding           global warming news.g       2.  Opportunists.d  3     3.  One-worlders, e.g. United Nations and IPCC.        4.  Religious left.p  *     For two commentaries on the recent NAS> report, see the commentary for June 12 from the Cato Institute= at http://www.cato.org/commentary/index.html and a commentary , from the Competitive Enterprise Institute at( http://www.cei.org/PRReader.asp?ID=1511.   David R. Beattyi   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:46:29 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change* Message-ID: <9g5ril$kud$1@lisa.gemair.com>  + In article <9g58b7$idf$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>,e'  <system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote:c8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: >tD >>    The IPCC report contained 245 different temperature models forC >>the next 100 years.  Guess which model was reported by the media? H >>Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,H >>what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen  >>in 100 years?7 > I >There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction.. >n  J Yes, there is a difference.  One is short-term, riddled with innaccuracies5 and not be relied upon, while the other is long-term.@  G The recent NAS council pointed out that none of the IPCC models seem tonF match the current observations.  Would a scientist seriously predicate* public policy on admittedly faulty models?  C >>    The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionary-C >>principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming caused-H >>by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for; >>the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.- >-I >Encouraging companies to buy and install new energy efficient equipment fE >on an accellerated schedual via regulation and tax breaks, improving1@ >mass transit, exploring ways of supporting new fuels (it may beC >most efficient to use methane or methanol as a fuel in fuel cells)8E >reopening research into safe nuclear power (and safer reprocessing),bC >finding ways to encourage developing countries to start with cleanI >technologies... >   C All good ideas, but the political reality is Kyoto.  The only thingnC that the world can agree upon is a plan that's designed to keep CO2 C emissions at their present levels (by IPCC models, this is ruinous)S? and hurt industrialized Western economies at the expense of thea developing world.c  E Sometimes, you just have to choose sides.  Either you are on the sideaC of those who would panic us about global warming and force Kyoto ont us or you are not.  
 >>Dr. Dave >h >And what is that PhD in?  > ( >>Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: >>>David Beatty wrote: >a9 >>>>     The science of global climate change is anythingy >>>> but certain.  >l) >What do you know, we agree on something.s >a6 >>>>     The temperature models that show warming over8 >>>> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urban% >>>> heat island affect into account.N >  >And you know this because?@ >lA >Satellite data from the last 20 years, which is not effected by !? >teh urban heat island effect, shows an increase.  The increase A >is less than the numbers for surface temperatures but there havea@ >been some fairly reasonable, if, as yet, untested hypothetical I >reasons to expect the portion of the atmosphere monitored by satellites n* >to be slower to heat up than the surface. >.: >>>>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely  >AA >And you make this quantitative statement based on what evidence?. >t@ >>>> normal planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced >>>> by human activity.    >VI >Sunspots run on an 11 year cycle, we've seen heating for far longer thanlF >that.  There are no known planetary weather cycles that would account >for the warming.a >   H Oh really?  What accounts for the Little Ice Age that occurred 2 hundredD years ago or the Mideval Warming Period that ocurred 1000 years ago?H There is research that indicates that there are longer solar cycles than= just the 11 year sunspot cycle.  Note the chart on this page:t  = 	http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1389/global.htmls  E The Average Geomagnetic Index has been steadily increasing since 1900f? (more dominantly influenced by sunspot cycles, but the trend is A clearly up).  This is thought to be indicative of increased solariB activity in the last 100 years.  Most solar scientists now believe3 that the 11 year cycle is not the only solar cycle.  	    > [snip]   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.com7   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:53:56 -0500l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B267354.56055D9F@fsi.net>.   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David Beatty wrote:dF > >     No, I'm not 100% certain.  However, since the Kyoto supporters? > > estimate the amount of climate change to be -0.07C if it ishB > > implemented, do you think it's worth the economic impact, thus3 > > affecting lifestyle and likely life expectancy?a > O > You mean you think it would be a bad thing if Americans were forced to get up L > and walk to the bus stop instead of drop in their car, press the remote toO > open garage door, and use only the muscle in the foot to press on the pedal ?  > H > Sorry to rain on your parade, but any changes that are positive to theN > environment would result in healthier lifestyles, longer life expectancy andO > lower health care costs.  (Not because of the better environment, but becausetN > citizens would learn to use their body and by using your body, it works much( > better and requires less maintenance).  H ...assuming there is a bus stop on every corner (the nearest to my houseC well over two(2) miles away) and a train station in every town (7.5eF miles from here, hubs on Chicago (as do all the commuter rail lines)), that is.  E Within the past ten years, my home/work commutes have ranged anywhere F from 5.4 miles (Elmhurst to Oak Brook) to 52.4 miles (Round Lake BeachF to the old RRD "campus", near McCormick Place). How long would it takeB the average non-athelete to pedal 52.4 miles, weather permitting?   = Anyone who still believes the "America's love affair with thejB automobile" myth is welcome to come visit me and attempt to travelG anywhere by public transit. E-mail me privately for directions. I don't.A run a B&B here; so, you'll have to make your own arrangements fors4 accomodations (nearest: 5.7 miles walking distance).  # > Sorry to rain on your parade, ...t  A ...but you really do not understand the nature and necessities of 9 suburban life and commuting in a major metropolitan area.m   --   David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systems, http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/*  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:31:56 -0400o5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>t  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <uGwmO1LR0i9ZABjn6iFqfu5OeKhR@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:54:17 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:N   >David Beatty wrote:E >>     No, I'm not 100% certain.  However, since the Kyoto supportersa> >> estimate the amount of climate change to be -0.07C if it isA >> implemented, do you think it's worth the economic impact, thust2 >> affecting lifestyle and likely life expectancy? >nN >You mean you think it would be a bad thing if Americans were forced to get upK >and walk to the bus stop instead of drop in their car, press the remote toeN >open garage door, and use only the muscle in the foot to press on the pedal ?  ? Yes, because the car is the symbol of individualism and freedomc> that allows us the choices to live any lifestyle we choose to.  G >Sorry to rain on your parade, but any changes that are positive to the@M >environment would result in healthier lifestyles, longer life expectancy andeN >lower health care costs.  (Not because of the better environment, but becauseM >citizens would learn to use their body and by using your body, it works much ' >better and requires less maintenance).a  B Sorry to rain on your parade, but that is just not necessarily the1 case.  Consider the costs of not having a car ...d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:11:57 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B26778D.BD00DE39@fsi.net>i   JF Mezei wrote:o > [snip]K > Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transitnM > doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you could M > consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidents  > while driving,  ? There have been some pretty spectacular mass-transit accidents,m	 remember!R   Chicagoans will remember:p7 - The IC crash (commuter trains collided - many deaths)nD - The "L" crash (elevated trains fell from the tracks to the street)" - Various and sundry bus accidentsC - The day a school bus got smacked by a commuter train in Fox River  Groveo  F ...and those are just the ones that I can pull off the top of my head.  * ...for those who'd rather not die alone...  > > you don't feel guilty if you have a drink after work becauseO > you know you're talking the bus back home (instead of being a drunk driver on  > roads) etc etc.5  F Go home to your family! (...especially if you need a reason to drink!)  O > And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become such0N > that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreM > confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ?n  H It's still better than only getting three or four hours a sleep each dayC because you're spending 6 or more hours a day walking / pedalling /RB riding mass transit. Whaddaya gonna do - work, eat, sleep, repeat?  D JF, mass transit - even foot power - is fine for those who can availE themselves of its benefits. You *MUST* understand, however, that suchc; folks are the vast minority of urban and suburban dwellers.r  F These days, working-where-you-live and living-where-you-work is by far the greater luxury.   > People live where the affordable housing is and work where the? best-paying jobs are. Rarely are these two found within walkingaB distance, nor are they frequently connected by mass transit within% walking distance of either location.    G There are, according to the last stat.'s I saw in the The Daily Herald,eG some 4.5 million commuters in Metro Chicago. Less than 30% of them havetG the option to use mass transit, based on ridership numbers from the CTA A (Chicago Transit Authority), Pace (suburban bus system) and MetratA (Metropolitan Commuter Rail Co. of Northeast Illinois), combined.t   Home-based biz, anyone?h   -- e David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:20:38 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change* Message-ID: <3B26A3C6.19AF52F3@virgin.net>   David Beatty wrote::   >[D >     No, I'm not 100% certain.  However, since the Kyoto supporters= > estimate the amount of climate change to be -0.07C if it isi@ > implemented, do you think it's worth the economic impact, thus1 > affecting lifestyle and likely life expectancy?  >s  ] The thing about the Kyoto agreement was that it was really more of a compromise that everyoney] had been *just about* able to agree upon. Many countries thought it did not go far enough andiZ some thought the opposite. But it seemed to have been generally agreed. I don't think many[ Europeans really expected every country (especially the US) to fully meet the terms  but ite\ would act as a concentrator of minds on successor treaties that might really get it right. IZ don't think the Bush administration quite understood this in time, saw it as hard and fastY and so just tore it up. A Bush spokesman more or less said as much on CNN in Europe todaysU although I'm not sure he would have said it quite the way to a CNN domestic audience.0 --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:38:26 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change; Message-ID: <SJxV6.1608$%f.1497102@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>a  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message$ news:3B26A3C6.19AF52F3@virgin.net... >o >w > David Beatty wrote:a >c > > F > >     No, I'm not 100% certain.  However, since the Kyoto supporters? > > estimate the amount of climate change to be -0.07C if it isIB > > implemented, do you think it's worth the economic impact, thus3 > > affecting lifestyle and likely life expectancy?P > >a >aF > The thing about the Kyoto agreement was that it was really more of a compromise that everyoneI > had been *just about* able to agree upon. Many countries thought it did  not go far enough andwI > some thought the opposite. But it seemed to have been generally agreed.e  J Really? Seems to me that the US Senate (House of Lords) under Bill ClintonI voted it down 92 to nothing since it enabled the ChiComs to keep churninga- out as many greenhouse gases as they pleased.u   I don't think manyK > Europeans really expected every country (especially the US) to fully meetm the terms  but it G > would act as a concentrator of minds on successor treaties that mightn really get it right.   Which would be a good thing!   > ItK > don't think the Bush administration quite understood this in time, saw itn as hard and fastK > and so just tore it up. A Bush spokesman more or less said as much on CNN  in Europe todayuD > although I'm not sure he would have said it quite the way to a CNN domestic audience.  J Actually, it sounded this way here, too. Note that we Yanks love to cruiseJ around in gas-guzzling Sport Utility Vehicles which get less than half theL gas mileage of ordinary cars (and less than a third of the average Brit car)K yet are not restricted by the same emissions standards as are our so-calleda cars.e  J We also generate ~20 percent of our electricity from nuke plants, comparedI with ~60 or ~70 percent in France. Obviously there is a fetish for fossileK fuels and gas-guzzlers here in this country. I don't think the Kyoto Treatyh5 is the answer, but clearly the present course is not.d  H Three dollar a gallon petrol might precipitate some changes, though! ;-}   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:23:29 -0400s5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>d  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <2gcmOxunOu97vesRR6RROqVSi6E1@4ax.com>       Only 10%?  Hmmm ...w  C     As pointed out in another thread, most of the folks making the kF global warming claims tend to do so using highly politicized language, i.e. there is a hidden agenda.  B     The IPCC report contained 245 different temperature models forA the next 100 years.  Guess which model was reported by the media?oF Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,F what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen 
 in 100 years?   A     The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryaA principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causeduF by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for9 the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.l   Dr. Dave  C On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:55:21 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:   >h >  >David Beatty wrote: > 5 >> I can't let this one go ... see my comments below.  >> >o >Neither can I.... >n >>7 >>     The science of global climate change is anythingu >> but certain.o >>4 >>     The temperature models that show warming over6 >> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urban# >> heat island affect into account.a >>> >>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely normal7 >> planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced-: >> by human activity.  Not only that, warming would likely: >> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.3 >> Most warming would likely come from higher night$8 >> temperatures and would make additional land available >> for farming.m >uW >Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climate scientists right now.tV >While the factors you mention certainly do come into play the majority view says thatU >it *is* likely we are seriously overheating the planet and that negative cosequenceseV >will outweigh any positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play it >safe.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 14:18:15 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edud  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <9g58b7$idf$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>n  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:-  D >    As pointed out in another thread, most of the folks making the G >global warming claims tend to do so using highly politicized language,p >i.e. there is a hidden agenda.e  E Most of the people poo-pooing it tend to use smear techniques againstdH those who support it. The NAS study came out unanimously that the globe D has warmed in the last 100 years.  They did not come to a conclusion! about the source of that warming.y  C >    The IPCC report contained 245 different temperature models fortB >the next 100 years.  Guess which model was reported by the media?G >Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,pG >what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen t >in 100 years?  H There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction.  B >    The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryB >principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causedG >by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous fore: >the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.  H Encouraging companies to buy and install new energy efficient equipment D on an accellerated schedual via regulation and tax breaks, improving? mass transit, exploring ways of supporting new fuels (it may bedB most efficient to use methane or methanol as a fuel in fuel cells)D reopening research into safe nuclear power (and safer reprocessing),B finding ways to encourage developing countries to start with clean technologies...T  	 >Dr. Dave    And what is that PhD in?  ' >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:u >>David Beatty wrote:t  8 >>>     The science of global climate change is anything >>> but certain.  ( What do you know, we agree on something.  5 >>>     The temperature models that show warming overk7 >>> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urbany$ >>> heat island affect into account.   And you know this because?  @ Satellite data from the last 20 years, which is not effected by > teh urban heat island effect, shows an increase.  The increase@ is less than the numbers for surface temperatures but there have? been some fairly reasonable, if, as yet, untested hypothetical  H reasons to expect the portion of the atmosphere monitored by satellites ) to be slower to heat up than the surface.t  9 >>>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely t  @ And you make this quantitative statement based on what evidence?  ? >>> normal planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not inducedo >>> by human activity.    H Sunspots run on an 11 year cycle, we've seen heating for far longer thanE that.  There are no known planetary weather cycles that would accountc for the warming.  ' >>> Not only that, warming would likelyt; >>> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.a4 >>> Most warming would likely come from higher night9 >>> temperatures and would make additional land availablew >>> for farming.  9 Global warming will have varied effects around the world, @ parts of Russia and Canada may well gain longer growing seasons,? the U.S. will likely see longer stretches of +90 degree weathers, and longer droughts across the bread basket.  < Global warming will also provide more energy for more storms= and it will stress already stressed out ecosystems across the  globe.  C >>Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climate -L >>scientists right now. While the factors you mention certainly do come intoB >>play the majority view says that it *is* likely we are seriouslyH >>overheating the planet and that negative cosequences will outweigh anyK >>positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play it safe.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:39:36 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <d46cit0hc3tmc48qnseh8c695p7tv57k8b@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:23:29 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:t   >sB >    The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryB >principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causedG >by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for : >the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.  D Nobody ever said it was "appealing". However it probably would *not*E be ruinous for the US economy, It might be ruinous for Big Oil but indB reality probably won't be as Big Oil is quietly working on variousC assumptions as to the future that do not match some of their publice statements. Yet...  A And when it comes down to a choice between "likely ruining the USeA economy" (your words although I disagree) or possibly ruining the E world. I need to be damn certain that the second alternative will notdF happen before picking the first. And even you aren't damn certain from what I can see.e  > We probably have a maximum of 50 years or so of oil at currentF consumption according to oil industry figures. Whether it is renewableE power or nuclear power we need to address this now (never mind globaleE warming) and assuming everyone interested is a commie tree hugger outu$ to destroy the US is no way forward.   >t	 >Dr. Dave' > D >On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:55:21 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> >wrote:n >n >> >> >>David Beatty wrote:n >>6 >>> I can't let this one go ... see my comments below. >>>  >> >>Neither can I... >> >>>n8 >>>     The science of global climate change is anything >>> but certain. >>> 5 >>>     The temperature models that show warming overy7 >>> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urbans$ >>> heat island affect into account. >>>*? >>>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely normal 8 >>> planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced; >>> by human activity.  Not only that, warming would likelya; >>> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.d4 >>> Most warming would likely come from higher night9 >>> temperatures and would make additional land availablei >>> for farming. >>X >>Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climate scientists right now.W >>While the factors you mention certainly do come into play the majority view says thateV >>it *is* likely we are seriously overheating the planet and that negative cosequencesW >>will outweigh any positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play itd >>safe.t   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 15:27:42 GMT# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edun  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <9g5cde$idf$2@husk.cso.niu.edu>b  % system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:s  3 >The NAS study came out unanimously that the globe uE >has warmed in the last 100 years.  They did not come to a conclusion " >about the source of that warming.  I The NAS has just issued another report ... I am just a bit confused as to G whether this is new work or a summary of prior work for the sake of oure
 President.  L http://www4.nationalacademies.org/onpi/webextra.nsf/web/climate?OpenDocument2 is a summary of different parts of the new report.  + http://unisci.com/stories/20001/0113001.htmn% talks about the old report (Jan 2000)b  6 http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/impacts/imp_blio.html7 bibliography about potential impacts of global warming.   X http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/publications/impacts/sealevel/probability.html#execsumm sea level rise study.0  3 These are pretty even-handed non-polemic web pages.o   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:21:18 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>r  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <VE8mOwL=SZbEB9g07L+mTGgX480E@4ax.com>  A On 12 Jun 2001 14:18:15 GMT, system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:o  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: >rE >>    As pointed out in another thread, most of the folks making the RH >>global warming claims tend to do so using highly politicized language,  >>i.e. there is a hidden agenda. >aF >Most of the people poo-pooing it tend to use smear techniques againstI >those who support it. The NAS study came out unanimously that the globe iE >has warmed in the last 100 years.  They did not come to a conclusiont" >about the source of that warming. >tD >>    The IPCC report contained 245 different temperature models forC >>the next 100 years.  Guess which model was reported by the media?dH >>Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,H >>what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen  >>in 100 years?d > I >There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction.a > C >>    The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryeC >>principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causedhH >>by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous for; >>the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally.  >nI >Encouraging companies to buy and install new energy efficient equipment eE >on an accellerated schedual via regulation and tax breaks, improvingi@ >mass transit, exploring ways of supporting new fuels (it may beC >most efficient to use methane or methanol as a fuel in fuel cells)rE >reopening research into safe nuclear power (and safer reprocessing), C >finding ways to encourage developing countries to start with cleanp >technologies... >y
 >>Dr. Dave >f >And what is that PhD in?n >   7 No PhD, just a nickname I picked up when I was younger.a  ( >>Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: >>>David Beatty wrote: >t9 >>>>     The science of global climate change is anythingc >>>> but certain.h >g) >What do you know, we agree on something.t >s6 >>>>     The temperature models that show warming over8 >>>> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urban% >>>> heat island affect into account.  >  >And you know this because?n >tA >Satellite data from the last 20 years, which is not effected by y? >teh urban heat island effect, shows an increase.  The increaseoA >is less than the numbers for surface temperatures but there haves@ >been some fairly reasonable, if, as yet, untested hypothetical I >reasons to expect the portion of the atmosphere monitored by satellites d* >to be slower to heat up than the surface. >d: >>>>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely  > A >And you make this quantitative statement based on what evidence?  >0@ >>>> normal planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced >>>> by human activity.  2 >CI >Sunspots run on an 11 year cycle, we've seen heating for far longer than%F >that.  There are no known planetary weather cycles that would account >for the warming.b >0( >>>> Not only that, warming would likely< >>>> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.5 >>>> Most warming would likely come from higher night : >>>> temperatures and would make additional land available >>>> for farming.  >n: >Global warming will have varied effects around the world,A >parts of Russia and Canada may well gain longer growing seasons,d@ >the U.S. will likely see longer stretches of +90 degree weather- >and longer droughts across the bread basket.o >l= >Global warming will also provide more energy for more stormss> >and it will stress already stressed out ecosystems across the >globe.  >hD >>>Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climate M >>>scientists right now. While the factors you mention certainly do come intoEC >>>play the majority view says that it *is* likely we are seriouslyaI >>>overheating the planet and that negative cosequences will outweigh any-L >>>positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play it safe.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:26:20 GMT6+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <3B26664B.39AF3E9B@ins-msi.com>i  $ system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: > 9 > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:h > E > >    As pointed out in another thread, most of the folks making theiI > >global warming claims tend to do so using highly politicized language,s! > >i.e. there is a hidden agenda.y > G > Most of the people poo-pooing it tend to use smear techniques againstiI > those who support it. The NAS study came out unanimously that the globebF > has warmed in the last 100 years.  They did not come to a conclusion# > about the source of that warming.  > E > >    The IPCC report contained 245 different temperature models foreD > >the next 100 years.  Guess which model was reported by the media?I > >Weathermen cannot accurately predict the weather five days in advance,sH > >what makes you think we can accurately predict what's going to happen > >in 100 years? > J > There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction.   Let's see...  < short term inaccurate model... weather prediction: 2 + 2 = 5  0 long term precise model... climate prediction: -D  123456789012345678901234567890 + 123456789012345678901234567890 = -  246913578024691357802469135780o   I don't think so.a   > D > >    The idea of playing it safe (the often misused "precautionaryD > >principle") to save the planet from alleged global warming causedI > >by human factors is not appealing since it would likely be ruinous foru< > >the U.S. economy and stall economic development globally. > I > Encouraging companies to buy and install new energy efficient equipment F > on an accellerated schedual via regulation and tax breaks, improvingA > mass transit, exploring ways of supporting new fuels (it may bekD > most efficient to use methane or methanol as a fuel in fuel cells)F > reopening research into safe nuclear power (and safer reprocessing),D > finding ways to encourage developing countries to start with clean > technologies...  >  > >Dr. Davel >  > And what is that PhD in? > ) > >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:- > >>David Beatty wrote:  > : > >>>     The science of global climate change is anything > >>> but certain. > * > What do you know, we agree on something. > 7 > >>>     The temperature models that show warming overw9 > >>> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urban & > >>> heat island affect into account. >  > And you know this because? > A > Satellite data from the last 20 years, which is not effected byi@ > teh urban heat island effect, shows an increase.  The increaseB > is less than the numbers for surface temperatures but there have@ > been some fairly reasonable, if, as yet, untested hypotheticalI > reasons to expect the portion of the atmosphere monitored by satellites + > to be slower to heat up than the surface.d > : > >>>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely > B > And you make this quantitative statement based on what evidence? > A > >>> normal planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not inducedl > >>> by human activity. > J > Sunspots run on an 11 year cycle, we've seen heating for far longer thanG > that.  There are no known planetary weather cycles that would accountm > for the warming. > ) > >>> Not only that, warming would likelye= > >>> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.>6 > >>> Most warming would likely come from higher night; > >>> temperatures and would make additional land availables > >>> for farming. > ; > Global warming will have varied effects around the world,lB > parts of Russia and Canada may well gain longer growing seasons,A > the U.S. will likely see longer stretches of +90 degree weather . > and longer droughts across the bread basket. > > > Global warming will also provide more energy for more storms? > and it will stress already stressed out ecosystems across the  > globe. > D > >>Sorry but you are giving a view held by less than 10% of climateN > >>scientists right now. While the factors you mention certainly do come intoD > >>play the majority view says that it *is* likely we are seriouslyJ > >>overheating the planet and that negative cosequences will outweigh anyM > >>positives. Strikes me that this is one area where we should play it safe.-  
 Jeff Campbell  n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:06:06 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B26E6AD.EF39C5F5@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:G > Within the past ten years, my home/work commutes have ranged anywherelH > from 5.4 miles (Elmhurst to Oak Brook) to 52.4 miles (Round Lake BeachH > to the old RRD "campus", near McCormick Place). How long would it takeC > the average non-athelete to pedal 52.4 miles, weather permitting?d  K This is exactly why a slow conversion to public transit is best. IOf the US K government refuses to take the lead to start that conversion, when the diredQ warnings do materialise, it will mean a very big change in american's lifestyles.h  N But if the USA were to start now and go slowly, you would find that businessesK and public transit would gradually locate themselves to serve the citizens. N Would some still need to travel very far ? Perhaps, and they would think twiceT about accepting jobs where they would spend half their salary on fuel for transport.  M Businesses would also become more active with telecommuting, allowing them tosL attract employees who might not have the means to easily travel to their far
 away offices.l  M All this is called urban planning. And in many places in the world, includingnM some asian cities as well as many european cities, this has been the case fortI a long time. And in cities such as New York, they have realised that they & could not live without public transit.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:07:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B26E702.D2B71A66@videotron.ca>   David Beatty wrote:vD > Sorry to rain on your parade, but that is just not necessarily the3 > case.  Consider the costs of not having a car ...   L I have. And it costs me less to take taxis over a year than it would cost meK to own a car for those times where public transit (or my bike) won't do the  job nicely.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:11:06 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B26E7D8.9EBE1D47@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > JF, mass transit - even foot power - is fine for those who can availG > themselves of its benefits. You *MUST* understand, however, that suchs= > folks are the vast minority of urban and suburban dwellers.   N Perhaps in certain USA cities. But in many cities around the world, car ownersI are in fact in the minority. And I would venture that New York City has ae. population where car owners would be minority.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:10:58 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306010010590001@user-2ive6bt.dialup.mindspring.com>  4 In article <3B26677B.4305582@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:A > > I also find it most interesting that all of the countries whow. > > have lower standards of living than we do, > 9 > It depends on your definition of "standard of living". h > J > Somone whose brain has become handicapped to a point where the person noL > longer knows that they are capable of walking to the convenience store andI > must take his/her car there, I don't consider this a higher standard ofhO > living. Someone who buys a 20 feet wide TV set with Dolby surround because he-M > is affraid to go outside because of the crime rate is not something which I ' > consider a higher standard of living.* > N > Standard of living is much more than just what merhandise you can buy. It is! > also how you can live you life.s  A Sure.  "Standard of living" ought to include quite a few factors,-H tangible, semi-tangible, and intangible.  Economists have trouble comingG up with a good catch-all number, since the less tangible parts are veryD hard to measure.  E One of the intangibles that surely must be considered in "standard of C living" is FREEDOM.  More is better.  (Though like all commodities,eA different folks will place a different value on a given amount of)F freedom.  Umm, "marginal propensitiy to be free" sounds like the rightD econ-101 buzz-phrase.)  An excess of coercion corresponds to a lowerI standard of living, and must be balanced against the supposed benefits ofa that coercion.  iK > Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transitrM > doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you couldrM > consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidentstM > while driving, you don't feel guilty if you have a drink after work becauseeO > you know you're talking the bus back home (instead of being a drunk driver onI > roads) etc etc.r  C What people give up by choice, so they can gain some other benefit,iH probably counts as an increase in standard of living.  What they give up; by force, for someone else's benefit, counts as a decrease.t  O > And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become suchwN > that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreM > confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ?.  E You seem overly concerned with the details of how other folks arrangeaI their lives.  Their cars, the size of their TVs, how often they go out in 
 public ...I If my TV really affected you, you might have a valid point.  But you go anG step farther.  You not only want to tell us what to do, but you seem toiC expect us to take YOUR word for it that we are happier as a result.   I When it comes right down to it, I am the only one who can estimate my owniG standard of living.  And you must estimate yours.  We'll get along justeH fine that way, unless your source of happiness is pulling other people's puppet-strings..   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:27:03 -0400l' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <9g6te2$lf$1@pyrite.mv.net>u  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-1306010010590001@user-2ive6bt.dialup.mindspring.com...   ...o  G > One of the intangibles that surely must be considered in "standard ofnE > living" is FREEDOM.  More is better.  (Though like all commodities,sC > different folks will place a different value on a given amount oflH > freedom.  Umm, "marginal propensitiy to be free" sounds like the rightF > econ-101 buzz-phrase.)  An excess of coercion corresponds to a lowerK > standard of living, and must be balanced against the supposed benefits ofr > that coercion.  ? Exactly.  And the major problem civilization faces - especiallysL capitalistic-oriented civilization, which seems to be on top these days, andK in large part I'm all for that - is that most of the benefits of the things A under discussion here won't occur in the lifetimes of many of the 
 participants.r  H Free-market capitalism just doesn't have a good way of dealing with suchF problems.  Self-interest certainly doesn't apply, unless you define itH rather broadly to include one's descendants, at a time when one won't be5 around to see the damage one has done to their world.b  E Take petroleum, for example.  Not only do we depend upon it for largepI portions of our energy, but it's a vital ingredient in literally greasing#H the wheels of industry, and in the manufacture of plastics.  At the rateI we're using it, the supply built up over the last 100 million or so years K will be gone well before the end - perhaps well before the middle - of thiss century.  K Now, to be consistent, the people who keep deriding global warming with "WeaJ don't know FOR SURE" should be at the forefront of petroleum conservation,H because we sure as hell don't know for sure that we'll find something toH replace it.  But they seem instead to prefer being consistent with theirJ attitude that we should leave *all* such problems for our children to deal with as best they can.  J That's why I find them disgusting.  And why I'm not all that interested in" participating more in this thread.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2001 17:56:45 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <9g5l4t$19la$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <koibit43t8g9fba15hlddk84rjg9subpn9@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:? |> On 11 Jun 2001 16:33:20 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billu |> Gunshannon) wrote:o |> o |> eF |> >According to the experts on ABC last night the oceans have alreadyE |> >risen 300-600 feet since the end of the last ice-age and that alle? |> >happened before the first SUV rolled off the assembly line.f |> lH |> Eh? Since the *end* of the last ice age the rise in sea level is moreE |> like 30 feet than 300 feet.  Way, way back in time it is estimatedeI |> that sea level may have been up to 300 feet higher but not in the lastyG |> 100,000 years let alone 15,000 years (approx end of last ice age) ora |> so.    @ Then, how do you explain all the submerged stone cities that are@ constantly used to fuel the Atlantis/Mu/Lemuria legends like the? Bimini Road??  Maybe in ancient time man had gills and he builtfC all this stuff underwater just to confuse future generations??  :-)o    C |>      Evidence of "raised beaches" can be seen around the world'saB |> coastlines where fossilized beaches can be found and Scotland'sF |> "links" golf courses are all built on raised beaches. A rise in seaG |> level of 30 feet again would put about 80% of the current populationb |> underwater IIRC.a  ? I would be skeptical of that, but then, just look at all of thee> various Deluge stories.  While some, like the Noah's Ark story> involve a boat, many cultures have flood legends that have the< survivors coming back down from mountain tops, which are all< that remain above the water.  That idea even forms the basis" of the dreaded movie "Waterworld".   |> e |> >A |> >And then we have the Piri Ries' Map which shows an Antarctic  $ |> >continent totally devoid of ice. |> nE |> That's a curious one as I remember but maybe somebody just doodledmE |> some mountains in and turned out not to be too far wrong. Or maybedH |> some ancient civilization did map it but insisted on driving too many	 |> SUVs..q  @ Is this the scientific method??  Ridicule that which you can notE explain if it won;t fit into already concieved "scientific" notions??yF This map is pretty obvious proof that there was at some point less iceB and therefore very likely higher water levels and that man had notD become extinct as a result of it.  And it can be pretty much assumedE that man hadn't caused it either.  That leaves the logical conclusionvC thet the melting and freezing of the ice caps may just be a naturaleC cycle and the only mistake man is making is living so close to the  A coast.  I, on the other hand, live several hundred feet above sear level.   |> dH |> Terry can probably tell us all about the Illuminati nazi alien lizard- |> creatures from hell at the South Pole :-).n   More of the scientific method??t   billD [There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.]e -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   w   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:10:50 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <3B26855A.8118AE4D@virgin.net>   David Beatty wrote:6  A > Sea levels are not rising and have not done so for at least 150[C > years.  See http://www.john-daly.com/ (not the golfer) and scrollyA > about 10-20% down the page for the caption "Is This the Picturey- > That Takes the Heat Out of Global Warming".o >e  Y They are rising in areas which are sinking. Britain is an example. In the north of the UKoV sea levels are very slightly dropping due to crustal rebound and in the south they areX slowly rising. Britain straddles the tilt axis of the European continent marking roughly. the point of forward advance of the ice sheet.   >a > David R. Beattyt >0 > >sK > >If taking relatively small lifestyle changes now means that we can avoid M > >having to deal with major problems later, the actions should be taken now.eO > >This si where the mentality of the current US adminstrators that no americannQ > >should "suffer" due to restrictions on fuel and that americans muct be able toe3 > >maintain their current lifestyle is veryu wrong.  > >eP > >The current lifestyle is not sustainable. Some changes to it must be made forT > >it to be sustainable. The more you wait, the greater the changes will have to be.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:39:06 -040005 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>82 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?2 Message-ID: <agwmOwmSpoZzeL8RK1YoAI5Wzafp@4ax.com>  2 On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 01:53:31 +0200, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:t   >David Beatty wrote: >>  5 >> I can't let this one go ... see my comments below.t >> c6 >> On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:50:40 +0100, andrew harrison$ >> <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >> q >> > >> >Jordan Henderson wrote:d >> >> - >> >> In article <3B14F209.C0A7D90C@fsi.net>,a6 >> >> David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >> >> >Simon Clubley wrote:h >> >> >>T >> >> >> On Tue, 29 May 2001 14:15:11 -0500, in article <3B13F53F.4C55D9C9@fsi.net>,! >> >> >> David J. Dachtera wrote: 
 >> >> >> >Q >> >> >> >Yes, certain benefits have been gained by playing ball with the Redmomd N >> >> >> >bullies. Of late, however, their monopolistic tactics have become soP >> >> >> >intolerable that even the Justice Department has seen fit to intervene/ >> >> >> >(much too little and years too late).a
 >> >> >> > >> >> >>5 >> >> >> What is the current Microsoft v DOJ status ?e >> >> >>U >> >> >> I'm British and live in the UK, so I don't really know which way the currentoT >> >> >> US administration is likely to go with this. I do know that prior to the USO >> >> >> election, the feeling in this newsgroup was that a Bush administration L >> >> >> would be less likely to continue with the action against Microsoft. >> >> >mH >> >> >Experience with the "Dubbya" admin. tends to bear out the group'sK >> >> >initial take on the matter. He's a corporate lackey - period, end ofe >> >> >statement.a >> >> >  >> >> H >> >> I try to avoid political discussions in this forum.  I don't think  >> >> people come here for this. >> >>iH >> >> I can't let this stand unchallenged, however, because Mr. DachteraH >> >> seems to have appointed himself spokesman for the group and deigns1 >> >> to give out our initial take on the matter.e >> >> H >> >> Insofar as George W. Bush may or may not be beholding to corporateG >> >> interests, I don't feel that the reality is fairly represented byf >> >> putting a period there.e >> >7 >> >Hmm, apart from the Tax cuts the other clear policy>6 >> >the Bush administration has commited themselves to2 >> >is to pull out of the Kyoto agreement that the" >> >Clinton administration signed. >> t? >>     The U.S. Senate voted 95-0 against ratification in 1998.hA >> A 2/3 majority of the Senate is required to ratify any treaty.n; >> Also, only one country (Romania) has ratified it so far.i >> l >> >3 >> >The Bush adminstration did so on the basis of at5 >> >reinterpretation of the scientific data on globalb5 >> >warming that the overwhelming majority of climates- >> >change experts have subsequently trashed.  >>  7 >>     The science of global climate change is anythingt >> but certain.s >> h4 >>     The temperature models that show warming over6 >> the last 100 years do not adequately take the urban# >> heat island affect into account.  >> e> >>     Even if the planet is warming, it is most likely normal7 >> planetary weather cycles or sunspots and not induced : >> by human activity.  Not only that, warming would likely: >> have more positive effects on the planet than negative.3 >> Most warming would likely come from higher nighta8 >> temperatures and would make additional land available >> for farming.y >> lA >>     Based on tree ring data, there was a warm trend from aboute< >> 1000-1300 A.D. and it is estimated the planet averaged 2CC >> warmer than now.  Also, the last Little Ice Age lasted from 1400eF >> to 1850.  The warming in the last 150 years took place before 1940. >>   >> >7 >> >The real subtext was that the measures necessary toa5 >> >impliment the somewhat limitted set of goals thatl9 >> >Clinton signed up to at Kyoto would hurt big businesss6 >> >and the economy. A short sighted view and one that7 >> >will ultimately leave the US behind the EU and mosta; >> >other developed countries in terms of energy efficiencys< >> >and one that will cost the US much more in the long term9 >> >when the changes they have put off are forced on themr >> >by circumstances.n >> > >> u> >>     If Kyoto were put into affect, it is estimated it would. >> change the planetary temperature by -0.07C. >> e= >>     The Kyoto Protocol is not about saving the planet froms7 >> global warming, but is a backhanded way to level thed8 >> economic playing field.  The EU wants to compete with: >> the U.S. by crippling the U.S. economy, not by lowering8 >> taxes and allowing it's citizens the economic freedom >> to create wealth. >> n? >>     Besides the tax cut, it's President Bush's smartest move0
 >> so far. >> r7 >> >As someone pointed out, the Easter Islander who cut:5 >> >down the last tree on the island probably did notd5 >> >realise the cost of the tree would be measured iny+ >> >the extinction of the Easter Islanders.t >> >>aG >> >> First of all, in comparison, Bill Clinton was the best friend themI >> >> huge transnational corporations ever had.  Witness the unbelievableo> >> >> mergers that occurred during the Clinton administration. >> >> H >> >>         - The largest 3 petrochemical mergers of all time occurredH >> >>           during the Clinton administration: Exxon/Mobil, BP/AmocoG >> >>           and Shell/Texaco (refining & marketing US).  If the oileK >> >>           companies are gouging, it was only made possible by runawaya >> >>           consolidation. >> >> G >> >>         - The largest automotive merger Daimler/Chrysler happeneduI >> >>           in 1998.  The Daimer CEO represented this to Americans ascF >> >>           'a marriage of equals' back before it happened, now heF >> >>           says that this wasn't a serious statement...  Ford andI >> >>           GM have been buying up lots of International auto makers,0 >> >>           too. >> >>gK >> >>         - The largest banking/insurance merger of all time, Citibank/gJ >> >>           Travelers sailed through even though it was illegal at theK >> >>           time the merger occurred (!)  Citibank/Travelers merged andnK >> >>           got those pesky banking laws that didn't allow banks to own L >> >>           Insurance companies changed after the fact.  While it's trueK >> >>           that Congress is to blame for changing the law, the ClintoneL >> >>           administration had the responsibility to execute the currentM >> >>           law and not just look the other way while this was happening.  >> >> Q >> >>         - The largest 3 media mergers (Viacom/CBS, Disney/ABC/Cap, AOL/TW).aM >> >>           Wonder why you don't know that Clinton was big bidness's besteL >> >>           buddy?  The MEDIA didn't report it after all... coincidence?H >> >>           (Considerable consolidation also occurred in Newspapers,K >> >>           Radio properties, regional television, but these were smalln0 >> >>           potatoes compared to the above.) >> >>aK >> >> Now, as for Mr. Bush.  The only Bush agenda item that's looks certaintM >> >> so far is a tax cut that will benefit the poorest tax payers first, andsL >> >> the poorest tax payers get by far the greatest percentage benefit.  NoL >> >> corporate or capital gains taxes have yet been proposed by Bush, whichL >> >> would really benefit his corporate masters, were he the lackey you say >> >> he is. >> >>tN >> >> Of course, Mr. Bush maybe listening to some corporate interests, I don'tL >> >> deny it.  It's only the John McCain's of the world who seem to believeP >> >> that everyone should have free speech, unless you have lots of money, then >> >> you should be silenced.n >> >> S >> >> >> Is this likely to still be the case or has the DOJ viewpoint not changed ?d >> >> > L >> >> >The DOJ tends to be strongly influenced by the feelings of the gov't. >> >> >leaders.u >> >> >oM >> >> >> BTW, is there a general move in the US to all things Microsoft or do O >> >> >> people still regard VMS/Unix/whatever as the correct tools for the joby, >> >> >> when it comes to critical systems ? >> >> >yN >> >> >With the release of the news that even the U.S. military is buying intoM >> >> >Redmond's bulls--t, the perception that Micro$hit is all things to alleL >> >> >{sheep,lemmings,whatever-works-for-you} is likely to be proliferated. >> >> >p1 >> >> >> Here in the UK, we have to deal with ther >> >> >> following:t >> >> >>: >> >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/19239.html >> >> >iK >> >> >This is yet another example of Redmond's bully tactics: lock out theeN >> >> >competition, rather than ensuring the greatest possible user base. TheyM >> >> >may have achieved their greedy goals in the UK - so be it. My feeling,aI >> >> >however, is that other such entities will be inclined to learn the O >> >> >lessons of this debacle (no guarantees, naturally) and ban M$ from theiroK >> >> >gov't "portal"s for such counter-competitive, monopolistic nonsense.y >> >> >'I >> >> >Here's a bit of "innovation" I'll bet you'll never see come out ofnO >> >> >Redmond: play nice with the rest of the world, instead of trying to rulen
 >> >> >it. >> >> >-	 >> >> >--- >> >> >David J. Dachtera >> >> >dba DJE Systems >> >> >http://www.djesys.com/. >> >> > A >> >> >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:v& >> >> >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ >> >> >nM >> >> >This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postingsm >> >> >is to be expected.  >> >> >tG >> >> >Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  >> >> >MM >> >> >However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, aree >> >> >strongly discouraged. >> >>o >> >> -Jordan Hendersong >> >> jordan@greenapple.coms >d9 >Sorry, but your post shows that you are very, very badlye< >informed. I really recomend not to continue to support this >attitude in this NG.s  9 Huh?  What do you mean?  If you think I'm badly informed,a please prove me wrong.   >sA >The consequences of Bush's "strategy" are 1000 new nuclear powerb@ >stations within the USA and exploration and exploitation of oil9 >fields in Alaska with destroying protected nature areas.   , No new nuclear plants have been commissioned7 in the U.S. in the last 20 years and nuclear technologya5 has advanced tremendously in that time.  A great dealt" of the power in Europe is nuclear.   >n< >Ever heard of "Three Mile Island" aka "Harrisburg"? The USA> >aren't like the Ukraine. Think about the "Challanger"! Do you >feel safe?a  = Besides Three Mile Island, what does that have to do with theg price of tea in China?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:53:31 -0400t5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>e2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?2 Message-ID: <CBAmOx0RHBHgtIdN04kj5Hg8r67b@4ax.com>  . I've been on vacation and just got back today.  2 See http://stars.coe.fr/doc/doc01/EDOC9058.htm and scroll down to item 28.t   David R. BeattyF  E On 03 Jun 2001 01:42:20 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>e wrote:  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: > ; >> Also, only one country (Romania) has ratified it so far.e > I >Could you cite a source for that? Or provide a map of the newly expanded  >Romania...t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:06:49 -0400t5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>l2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?2 Message-ID: <QRMmO7d9GgI6qwfjO8lPL8ZKsJJK@4ax.com>  , On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:44:21 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:4   >"David J. Dachtera" wrote:nJ >> When one element of such an equation changes, the whole tends to find a) >> new point of equilibrium, does it not?3 >0M >Yes. but it takes a while for the equilibrium to be reached, and during that>K >time, things can get very hectic. And if the new equilibrium from a warmer M >planet means that the polar icecaps melted to some extent, it means that therN >oceans will have higher levels. Cities on the shores of the oceans will startU >by having more and more flooding and eventually will loose parts of their territory.y >cK >How much will it cost to protect Manhattan from floods whenever there is agO >storm ? How much to protect Hong Kong, Amsterdam ? Los angeles, San Francico ,l4 >Seattle ? Sydney ? Auckland ? (list goes on an on).  ? Sea levels are not rising and have not done so for at least 150hA years.  See http://www.john-daly.com/ (not the golfer) and scrolli? about 10-20% down the page for the caption "Is This the Pictureu+ That Takes the Heat Out of Global Warming".    David R. Beatty    >eI >If taking relatively small lifestyle changes now means that we can avoidbK >having to deal with major problems later, the actions should be taken now.rM >This si where the mentality of the current US adminstrators that no americantO >should "suffer" due to restrictions on fuel and that americans muct be able to 1 >maintain their current lifestyle is veryu wrong.i > N >The current lifestyle is not sustainable. Some changes to it must be made forR >it to be sustainable. The more you wait, the greater the changes will have to be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:46:56 +0100d% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <koibit43t8g9fba15hlddk84rjg9subpn9@4ax.com>  < On 11 Jun 2001 16:33:20 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:    C >According to the experts on ABC last night the oceans have alreadynB >risen 300-600 feet since the end of the last ice-age and that all< >happened before the first SUV rolled off the assembly line.  E Eh? Since the *end* of the last ice age the rise in sea level is moreiB like 30 feet than 300 feet.  Way, way back in time it is estimatedF that sea level may have been up to 300 feet higher but not in the lastD 100,000 years let alone 15,000 years (approx end of last ice age) or? so. Evidence of "raised beaches" can be seen around the world'sl? coastlines where fossilized beaches can be found and Scotland'suC "links" golf courses are all built on raised beaches. A rise in seasD level of 30 feet again would put about 80% of the current population underwater IIRC.   > > >And then we have the Piri Ries' Map which shows an Antarctic ! >continent totally devoid of ice.   B That's a curious one as I remember but maybe somebody just doodledB some mountains in and turned out not to be too far wrong. Or maybeE some ancient civilization did map it but insisted on driving too manyc SUVs..  E Terry can probably tell us all about the Illuminati nazi alien lizard * creatures from hell at the South Pole :-).   >t >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:05:10 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>22 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <3B268406.DCCE8264@virgin.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  @ Then, how do you explain all the submerged stone cities that are  B > constantly used to fuel the Atlantis/Mu/Lemuria legends like theA > Bimini Road??  Maybe in ancient time man had gills and he built2E > all this stuff underwater just to confuse future generations??  :-)e >a  M From memory aren't they either less than about 50 or 60 ft deep or in an areatK subject to some form of volcanic activity? I don't see this as inconsistentpJ with what I've said. It's not just the ocean that goes up and down but theN land as well. Areas covered in ice during the last glaciation are still rising8 and much of the rest is slowly sinking. Fluid mechanics.   >0E > |>      Evidence of "raised beaches" can be seen around the world'swD > |> coastlines where fossilized beaches can be found and Scotland'sH > |> "links" golf courses are all built on raised beaches. A rise in seaI > |> level of 30 feet again would put about 80% of the current populationu > |> underwater IIRC.u >bA > I would be skeptical of that, but then, just look at all of the @ > various Deluge stories.  While some, like the Noah's Ark story@ > involve a boat, many cultures have flood legends that have the> > survivors coming back down from mountain tops, which are all> > that remain above the water.  That idea even forms the basis$ > of the dreaded movie "Waterworld". >e  N Well most of the world's major cities are on coastlines and great rivers. ThusM the major population centres are hit disproportionately by even slight rises.   K I'm not saying that sea level hasn't altered by 300-600ft up or down in theIK past. I am saying that it hasn't been since the end of the last ice age. If0J such a change occurred during a time when humans recorded it and could mapK Antarctica then we'd better drastically re-write ancient history. Still whoA knows...   >a > |> > |> >B > |> >And then we have the Piri Ries' Map which shows an Antarctic& > |> >continent totally devoid of ice. > |>G > |> That's a curious one as I remember but maybe somebody just doodled G > |> some mountains in and turned out not to be too far wrong. Or maybeaJ > |> some ancient civilization did map it but insisted on driving too many > |> SUVs..l >iB > Is this the scientific method??  Ridicule that which you can notG > explain if it won;t fit into already concieved "scientific" notions??aH > This map is pretty obvious proof that there was at some point less iceD > and therefore very likely higher water levels and that man had notF > become extinct as a result of it.  And it can be pretty much assumed >i  N Unless you are challenging the ice core dating of the Antarctic ice sheet thenI you have to put these humans around hundreds of thousands of years ago or N millions for the central mountains. However dim memory tells me that there wasK a warm period about 70,000 years ago (I don't look that old really) and a alK possible meteor strike about that time. Maybe also one around 15,000/20,000e+ years ago possibly ending the last ice age.pN Yes it does appear that the earth's preferred condition is much colder than itH is now and that we'll all freeze naturally in about 10,000 years withoutN global warming. But that's less to worry about than major changes in less than 100.  G > that man hadn't caused it either.  That leaves the logical conclusion E > thet the melting and freezing of the ice caps may just be a naturaleD > cycle and the only mistake man is making is living so close to the >n  M Some melting and some freezing most probably is. Throwing gigatons of CO2 etc>N at the system would still not be my first choice in finding out how it behaves under perturbation.h  C > coast.  I, on the other hand, live several hundred feet above seae > level. >g  M Unluckily for you most industry is not and wet, hungry displaced people climbfM hills. But we're getting a bit apocalyptic here and surely that's what we all> want to avoid?     >a > |>J > |> Terry can probably tell us all about the Illuminati nazi alien lizard/ > |> creatures from hell at the South Pole :-).a >i! > More of the scientific method??h >  > billF > [There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt > of in your philosophy.]> >   N It's always struck me as unlikely that any single man can have a philosophy orL imagination bigger than the universe. And you don't know what I dream of ;-)   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.325 ************************