1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 13 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 326       Contents:A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com , Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, RE: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun Re: 164UX and VMS 
 7.3 in .au Re: 7.3 in .au Re: 7.3 in .au Re: 7.3 in .au Re: A COBOL Question Re: Another COBOL Question Re: CD-RW on a VMS system. Re: cms question RE: cms question RE: cms question Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars( RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?( RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?2 Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS)* Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10. Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10. Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10. Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10. Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10! Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem @ Re: error message while copying a file frome one node to another< Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st< Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st< Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st' I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely? + Re: I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely? + Re: I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely? " Is the DFU source code available ?& Re: Is the DFU source code available ?& Re: Is the DFU source code available ?) Missing docs on VMS 7.3 documentation CD?  RE: Misuse of OpenVMS Marketing  RE: OT - Perl Hacker Re: OT: W2K bugs, Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale..., Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...& Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CD& Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CD- Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.  Problems with V7.3?  Re: Problems with V7.3?  Re: Problems with V7.3?  Re: Problems with V7.3?  Quotations from Chairman Matco
 set ho/mop Re: set ho/mop Re: set ho/mop Re: set ho/mop Re: Streaming of multiple files 9 Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS) ! Re: Unix equivalent of set verify ! Re: Unix equivalent of set verify ' VMS Contract Opportunities - Europewide  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT  Re: VMS5.1 and INIT  VMSTAR& Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLime5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue 5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue 5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue 5 Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  RE: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 13 Jun 01 08:23:44 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com+ Message-ID: <9g7h0j$6na$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   ; In article <W0pV6.1265$%f.1393173@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, 8    "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9g4rpl$btl$4@bob.news.rcn.net...  >  ><snip>  > ( >> > I don't have a problem with forkingJ >> >over the personal data the site collects (to me it doesn't rise to the >> level: >> >of kitchen-sink detail), but apparently some folks do. >> >> A LOT of BUSINESSES mind. > 3 >I would assume that you have filled out a profile.    Nope.    > Which data elements were3 >personally offensive? Perhaps they can be removed.   5 I'm only reporting what I've heard from ex-customers.    >> >> >J >> >The rationale for collecting the personal information is to aid in theB >> >analysis of issues and votes, e.g. if a significant number of  respondents H >> >are concerned about system reliability, it would be valuable to know
 >> whether0 >> >they were NSK, Tru64, VMS, or Windows users. >>B >> But the strategy isn't gathering any useful data.  Compaq isn'tB >> ever going to find out why ex-customers became that way because? >> the communication link (buying products) is gone.  JEEZ!!!!! + >> This is the attitude that destroyed DEC.  > B >If you have a problem with the current approach and have a betterF >alternative, you are perfectly welcome to volunteer your time to the  effort.  > 8 Trying to combine a goal of selling to Windoze types and= collecting information from more sophisticated computer users : (DEC customers) are counterproductive which several people< have been telling you in this newsgroup.  Listen to the damn customer!     < We kept saying this when our product got killed.  History is repeating itself.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:09:18 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com: Message-ID: <OeMV6.3353$86.604620@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9g7h0j$6na$6@bob.news.rcn.net...= > In article <W0pV6.1265$%f.1393173@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, : >    "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > > ' > ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message % news:9g4rpl$btl$4@bob.news.rcn.net...  > > 	 > ><snip>  > > * > >> > I don't have a problem with forkingL > >> >over the personal data the site collects (to me it doesn't rise to the
 > >> level< > >> >of kitchen-sink detail), but apparently some folks do. > >> > >> A LOT of BUSINESSES mind. > > 5 > >I would assume that you have filled out a profile.  >  > Nope.   8 Then see? You have absolutely nothing to complain about. >  > > Which data elements were5 > >personally offensive? Perhaps they can be removed.  > 7 > I'm only reporting what I've heard from ex-customers.  >  > >> > >> >L > >> >The rationale for collecting the personal information is to aid in theC > >> >analysis of issues and votes, e.g. if a significant number of 
 > respondents J > >> >are concerned about system reliability, it would be valuable to know > >> whether2 > >> >they were NSK, Tru64, VMS, or Windows users. > >>D > >> But the strategy isn't gathering any useful data.  Compaq isn'tD > >> ever going to find out why ex-customers became that way becauseA > >> the communication link (buying products) is gone.  JEEZ!!!!! - > >> This is the attitude that destroyed DEC.  > > D > >If you have a problem with the current approach and have a betterG > >alternative, you are perfectly welcome to volunteer your time to the 	 > effort.  > > : > Trying to combine a goal of selling to Windoze types and? > collecting information from more sophisticated computer users < > (DEC customers) are counterproductive which several people> > have been telling you in this newsgroup.  Listen to the damn > customer!   G Compaq and the AWG are offering that opportunity. You may object to the I medium, but it does in fact exist. Arrangements were made during the last L voting cycle to enable those who had a problem with JavaScript or cookies toB snailmail or fax their ballots in to Smith Bucklin Associates, the? association management firm whose IT subsidiary hosts the tool.   B As for the Windoze-based tool implementation, the vast majority ofJ sophisticated VMS and Tru64 and NSK users have access to Windoze desktops.H No complaints have been heard from the ITUG (Himalaya NSK) constituency.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:25:04 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ' Message-ID: <3B2769B0.140022FD@fsi.net>    Andy Bustamante wrote: > N > The big thing I admire about IBM is that we haven't used their equipment forJ > almost 10 years, but their sales people still cold call, mail us product% > news, try to schedule appointments.  > E > These people want our business in any way shape or form.  Hardware, L > services, network security, anything they can  get take.  And they competeM > internally with each other, no "private reserve for Proliant" restrictions.  > K > There are worse things that could happen to VMS than having IBM take over  > and start marketing.  E I've been as anti-IBM as anyone, I guess. Though nowadays, my anti-M$ / leanings probably overshadow that far and away.   H I would be HAPPY if IBM were to somehow wrest Alpha and VMS from Compaq.H Frankly, I don't care who does as long as someone does, and that someone* subsequently MARKETS the (censored) stuff!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:42:11 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun H Message-ID: <y4y9qwh4y4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   M > Compaq didn't buy Alpha and VMS, Compaq bought Digital's services division.   D And from what I hear here and elsewhere, the subsequent 'paqtion has/ drastically reduced the value of said division.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:07:51 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> 5 Subject: RE: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F4D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  J I think your referring to VMS as "censored stuff" is pretty close to right on. ;)   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '       > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  > > I would be HAPPY if IBM were to somehow wrest Alpha and VMS  > from Compaq.> > Frankly, I don't care who does as long as someone does, and  > that someone, > subsequently MARKETS the (censored) stuff!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:55:30 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: 164UX and VMS8 Message-ID: <e5heitk7evghmb2nc3uer9olm6phm55d5e@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:41:53 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:     low the C >Multia to run VMS and soon after Pro-Engineer was dropped for VMS. D >Even an unsupported VMS multia boot option would probably have beenC >fine for the particular student lab. I believe Pro-Engineer is now 1 >installed on non Compaq Windows PCs in this lab.   > Following up on my own post a quick search of the PTC web site@ (authors of Pro-Engineer) suggests that they might just still beF persuadable to re-intoduce VMS support. The one product they have that, still supports VMS (Medusa) says in the faq:  4 Q. What operating systems does MEDUSA 2000i run on?   D A. PTC supports MEDUSA on Microsoft Windows NT (Intel and Alpha) SunC Solaris, HP HPUX, SGI IRIX, DIGITAL UNIX and Open VMS. It should be F noted that with the announcement, by Compaq, of the end of support for@ the Alpha Chip on Windows NT, that MEDUSA 2000i will be the last" release on the Alpha NT platform.   F In other words no end of life announcement for the VMS port of Medusa.@ There might be special reasons here (and I'm not really aware ofC Medusa)  but it could also indicate that Compaq are leaning heavily ; enough on ISVs that they are no longer rushing to drop VMS.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:13 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  Subject: 7.3 in .au 5 Message-ID: <01K4Q9SWMI36001GMT@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>   M Having seen these various messages about 7.3 appearing in disparate parts of  O the world, and reading Alan Greig's sob story, I am tempted to ask whether any  : folk in .au have yet received 7.3 and/or the June ConDist?  P I'll also throw in another quick question (not having seen the release notes).  L Can 7.3 DECstation co-exist in a cluster with a VAXstation still at 6.2?  I O don't really need to upgrade my VAX, it's used mainly for transport of a debug  D window from my Alpha development machine and to receive my VMS mail.  O And both workstations sit on my desk :-)  No PeeCee :-)))))))))))  (What's the  ) emoticon for dancing and clapping hands?)    Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australia    Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people, ; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:38:51 +0800 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>  Subject: Re: 7.3 in .au A Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010613173723.009f25a0@mail.bigpond.com>   B At 07:27 PM 13/06/01 +0010, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:M >Having seen these various messages about 7.3 appearing in disparate parts of L >the world, and reading Alan Greig's sob story, I am tempted to ask whether  >any; >folk in .au have yet received 7.3 and/or the June ConDist?   $ They haven't arrived in Perth yet...    H >I'll also throw in another quick question (not having seen the release  >notes).L >Can 7.3 DECstation co-exist in a cluster with a VAXstation still at 6.2?  IJ >don't really need to upgrade my VAX, it's used mainly for transport of a  >debugE >window from my Alpha development machine and to receive my VMS mail.   F The release notes are available from the documentation site at Compaq.    L >And both workstations sit on my desk :-)  No PeeCee :-)))))))))))  (What's  >the* >emoticon for dancing and clapping hands?) >  >Regards, Paddy  >  >Paddy O'Brien,        Regards, Dave.  --  I David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/ I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 06:55:40 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: 7.3 in .au 3 Message-ID: <qpMl9LiqySdT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <01K4Q9SWMI36001GMT@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:   N > Can 7.3 DECstation co-exist in a cluster with a VAXstation still at 6.2?  I   A Absolutely not.  A DECstation is a MIPS machine that runs Ultrix. A You might consider upgrading to a DEC 3000 series workstation :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:26:54 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: 7.3 in .au 8 Message-ID: <6cjeits88ken3sjcsf8lpue0pud8lcsr44@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:13 +0010, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  wrote:  N >Having seen these various messages about 7.3 appearing in disparate parts of P >the world, and reading Alan Greig's sob story, I am tempted to ask whether any ; >folk in .au have yet received 7.3 and/or the June ConDist?   : Compaq UK tell me that the June ConDist will now go out onD 23-JUN-2001. At least I think that was the date I was given verbally9 and might approximately correspond to a .au distribution.  > Q >I'll also throw in another quick question (not having seen the release notes).   M >Can 7.3 DECstation co-exist in a cluster with a VAXstation still at 6.2?  I  P >don't really need to upgrade my VAX, it's used mainly for transport of a debug E >window from my Alpha development machine and to receive my VMS mail.w >cP >And both workstations sit on my desk :-)  No PeeCee :-)))))))))))  (What's the * >emoticon for dancing and clapping hands?) >  >Regards, Paddy  >" >Paddy O'Brien,e >Transmission Development, >TransGrid,o >PO Box A1000, Sydney South,   >NSW 2000, Australia >  >Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063e >Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050 ' >Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  >RN >Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,< >but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:17:05 -0500i, From: Don Braffitt <don.braffitt@compaq.com> Subject: Re: A COBOL Questiont* Message-ID: <3B274BB1.E6EF53EB@compaq.com>   CINDY@BILBO.UINDY.EDU wrote:  M > My question is -- can we install the 2.7 runtime programs and still run the N > 2.4 compilier without causing ourselves major headachs and also will we needL > to re-compile all the programs that we have so that they are using the new > 2.7 RTL programs?    Cindy,  B The 2.7 runtime is designed to be used with programs compiled withG earlier versions of Compaq COBOL.  However, the only supported versions/G of Compaq COBOL at this time are 2.6 and 2.7.  There are numerous knowneC problems with 2.4, 2.5, and 2.6 which have been corrected with 2.7.sD Most of these fixes are in the compiler and require recompile/relinkF with the 2.7 compiler.  Anyone planning to run COBOL programs compiled@ with versions of DEC COBOL and DIGITAL COBOL which are no longerF supported by Compaq (such as 2.4), should at a minimum review the 2.5,E 2.6, and 2.7 release notes for a list of known problems with 2.4 thatD5 have been corrected in later versions of the product.i  & The 2.7 release notes are available at  1   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/cobol/w   - Don Braffitt7    Compaq COBOL and SORT (Alpha and VAX) project leadero   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:20:04 -0500i, From: Don Braffitt <don.braffitt@compaq.com># Subject: Re: Another COBOL Questionu* Message-ID: <3B274C64.A3122E6A@compaq.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:o  M > Another COBOL question. We've got a project that is using Micro FOCUS COBOLMI > instead of DEC/Q COBOL on Alpha. Since RISC really stands for "Religate3K > Important Stuff to the Compiler", and the third party compiler won't haveuM > the GEM optimizer, I've been wondering what kind of performance we're goingeM > to get out of this compiler when the code goes into production. Has any onecN > compared or benchmarked CompaQ COBOL vs Micro FOCUS Cobol against each other > on an Alpha?   Bob,  G We did performance comparisons at the initial delivery of both productse? on Tru64 UNIX.  The performance results varied depending on the F application.   Both products do generate code directly for Alpha.  ForB Compaq COBOL, you will see some benefits in most compute-intensiveG applications because of the GEM code generator and optimizer.  For most E I/O-intensive applications, performance between Micro Focus COBOL andv? Compaq COBOL should be similar.  For performance-critical COBOL-D applications on Tru64 UNIX, we recommend that customers do their ownB performance comparisons to determine the best COBOL product(s) for their specific applications.   - Don Braffitt7    Compaq COBOL and SORT (Alpha and VAX) project leader7   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:44:56 +0100n  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com# Subject: Re: CD-RW on a VMS system.@H Message-ID: <OF0AFB0CE1.8E24ED8C-ON80256A6A.002FEA0F@qedi.quintiles.com>  I I've tried CD-RWs before now and failed with them.  CD-R disks work quiteo happily.J I suspect that it may be related to the reflective properties of the media but that's purely a guess. Steve.   Leigh G. Bowden wrote: >>>tG I won't go into details at the moment - I'll post here when this is allv working.  J The Plextor is working (I think) under OpenVMS 6.2 on a VAXstation 4000/60 and CDRECORD 1.8a9.h  I I've used a physical disk and the LD driver to create the container fileslJ and burnt these but an RRDnn type device does not recognise any disk beingH in the drive and will not mount in any format I try. A PC (NT 4) doesn'tK recognise anything on the disk and spits it out again. Is it a problem withrH the container file or the burning process? Do I have to do anything with the % container files like SET FILE/ATTRIB?e <<<t   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 08:12:58 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o Subject: Re: cms questionu3 Message-ID: <ohRcAmdX$1DT@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  c In article <3taDiDd6FW3q@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:o >> $ cms fetch file  /gen=V3.7 > D > The says fetch the generation which is entered into group "V3.7". ;                                                       ^^^^^n   Oops, should be "class".  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationa= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingm   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 08:16:49 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)6 Subject: RE: cms questione3 Message-ID: <yNU0y8RQGfXD@eisner.encompasserve.org>j  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENJCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:"N > no they aren't the same, class was used on the VAX but not AXP, and I am notN > about to make those changes.  I think that I somehow need to do a CMS INSERT  F You have differences that are affecting you and you are not willing toH fix them?  Why have the VAX and alpha versions been allowed to diverge?  Sounds like poor CM to me.  K > This brings up another issue, if I modify a file common to both, how do Id > get that in to1 > CMS so that it is visible to both environments?e  D Depends on the environment.  If I understand what you're asking, I'dH prefer to cluster the two machines and use one commmon CMS.  The idea ofG having good CM and having more than one copy has always proved undoable  to me.  H Or are you asking how to always keep the latest generation inserted into0 a class?  That's exactly what a class isn't for.    F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationT= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:49:18 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>> Subject: RE: cms questiond9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEPNCLAA.tom@kednos.com>r  K Well, firstly, this is code that I inherited.  There is a common CMS to thel two environments.   G The problem was my ignorance of cms.  The AXP build doesn't use the 3.7pH class, only the VAX build.  I did a reserve and replace of a module, andL this worked for the AXP build, but for the VAX I also needed  to do a remove7 from this class and then insert the specific generationrJ into this class.  It would be nice to have this as a single operation, but for the moment this worked.c       > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]( > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:17 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como > Subject: RE: cms questione >s >i? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENJCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomf! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:aC > > no they aren't the same, class was used on the VAX but not AXP,  > and I am notC > > about to make those changes.  I think that I somehow need to doy > a CMS INSERT >.H > You have differences that are affecting you and you are not willing toI > fix them?  Why have the VAX and alpha versions been allowed to diverge?B > Sounds like poor CM to me. > > > > This brings up another issue, if I modify a file common to > both, how do I > > get that in to3 > > CMS so that it is visible to both environments?  >oF > Depends on the environment.  If I understand what you're asking, I'dJ > prefer to cluster the two machines and use one commmon CMS.  The idea ofI > having good CM and having more than one copy has always proved undoableg > to me. >tJ > Or are you asking how to always keep the latest generation inserted into2 > a class?  That's exactly what a class isn't for. >n >tH > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouplG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingl >I   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:40:22 +0100y0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warse* Message-ID: <3B275126.E3799D8E@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > John Eisenschmidt wrote: > > The problem is that anything like that will require another revolution (Mainframe to Mini, Mini to Micro, etc). I'm all for a Micro-Mini revolution. Who's with me?. > O > Larry Elison is with you. One secret part of Digital that had developped thindQ > client terminals was with you. Wasn't Sun also on the side of the thin client ?     
 We still are.e  < SunRays are ultra thin clients, no moving parts (unless you < could speakers) no installable software and nothing to admin: except an Ethernet address which needs to be added to the  server.<     Regardso Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 09:16:28 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)p' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars 3 Message-ID: <ahYrn9tl3ivR@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  : In article <3B275126.E3799D8E@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: >c= > SunRays are ultra thin clients, no moving parts (unless you3> > could speakers) no installable software and nothing to admin; > except an Ethernet address which needs to be added to the 	 > server.g  # That would make them a pain to use.i  J From personal experience of using keyboards that have no moving parts, and3 mice that do not move.  They just don't feel right.\     -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyr   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 06:48:38 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)m1 Subject: RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?o3 Message-ID: <yrvg+NI1gDfw@eisner.encompasserve.org>E  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEOMCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:0; > Moses tripped, broke the tablets.  So we will never know.X  1 The real Moses got a backup copy from his vendor.5   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:32:15 GMTi= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)f1 Subject: RE: DEC vs IBM, story of Moses - anyone?s0 Message-ID: <009FD76B.D07C5D72@SendSpamHere.ORG>  o In article <yrvg+NI1gDfw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:i^ >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEOMCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:< >> Moses tripped, broke the tablets.  So we will never know. >r2 >The real Moses got a backup copy from his vendor.  
 ROTFLMAO!!!  s  
 Thanks Larry!s --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt            iO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.X   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:58:29 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>; Subject: Re: Defining DCL commands (was: The future of VMS) J Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0106131649490.12545-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  * On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, James Gessling wrote: [...] G >+You know what's really great about dcl$path.  Try entering an asterixvB >+at the dcl prompt.  You get no error message, no message at all. >+D >+You just ran the first .exe or .com it found in dcl$path!  Hope it >+wasn't something bad.d  B  Someone warns about the point here, and from the time have always9 a file named "$.COM" in the first file in directory... :)aH (With comment: "do NOT remove", and "write sys$output some_flaming_text"  of course :)  !)'    Regards - Gotfryd   -- aE =====================================================================DF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:59:22 GMTa4 From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@removeme.hotmail.com>3 Subject: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10e4 Message-ID: <992436822.490846@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>   Kit:/ Alphastation DS10E running VMS7.2-1 (brand new) 8 DAT tape and CD-ROM fitted, 1 x 9GB internet UWSCSI disk  B I would like to add a disk storage system to the above, however myK requirements are not huge. I need to add some sort of removable drive driveeG arrangement where I can boot/work/shutdown from one disk and remove it, K insert another disk and boot from that etc. It is to ensure that 2 projects1K do not under any circumstances cross. I have looked on the CPQ web site for7C removable storage solutions that will fit, but there is data but nooJ INFORMATION to help me. The account manager we have referred my to the web site!v  H I remember using BA353 "pizza boxes" (3 slot) once upon a time - this isI perfect for what i need, but they cannot be purchased as far as i know. I L would prefer a COMPAQ solution as warranty is important and that which comesD with the DS10 is a good deal. If any in this group could point me toE somewhere where i can get information (and a picture) i would be mostoF grateful. Any solution considered, it must be removable disks however.  K Note to the web site guys for the compaq site - Pictures of product optionsmG rather than just part numbers and a very small description would help a  great deal please!  L If you wish to reply in person please use "andy.proctor@spirentcom.com" .TheK reply to address of this post is a personal address which i only check oncep a day.   TIA    Andy Proctor   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:03:08 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)7 Subject: Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10u, Message-ID: <9g7vbc$n32@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  k In article <992436822.490846@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>, "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@removeme.hotmail.com> writes:n >Kit: 0 >Alphastation DS10E running VMS7.2-1 (brand new)9 >DAT tape and CD-ROM fitted, 1 x 9GB internet UWSCSI diskd >sC >I would like to add a disk storage system to the above, however my L >requirements are not huge. I need to add some sort of removable drive driveH >arrangement where I can boot/work/shutdown from one disk and remove it,L >insert another disk and boot from that etc. It is to ensure that 2 projectsL >do not under any circumstances cross. I have looked on the CPQ web site forD >removable storage solutions that will fit, but there is data but noK >INFORMATION to help me. The account manager we have referred my to the web. >site!  L Could you use a Jaz or Zip disk to do what you want?  That would seem to be 6 the easiest solution - assuming VMS can talk to these.  E Do you have an external scsi connection on that unit?  If not, buy anaL intraserver controller that has one - and buy it directly from intraserver, E not the rebadged and marked up Compaq variant.  Then buy a couple of eJ external scsi disks from just about anywhere, a cable, and you're all set.J Since you're going through a reboot sequence you might as well power down + as well and just unplug/replug the disks.     G I've not checked, but some scsi controllers (on PCs at least) have the uH option to lock out certain SCSI ID's at boot time.   If the intraserver L supports that you could leave both disks in the system (and even inside the F case) and just disable one, enable the other at each boot.  I use thisH feature with a very similar controller under Linux/Intel to install RH -G which otherwise insists on spreading itself all over every disk in the o system.      Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:45:09 -040042 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)7 Subject: Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10pL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306011145100001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <992436822.490846@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>, "Andy Proctor"-& <aproctor@removeme.hotmail.com> wrote:   > Kit:1 > Alphastation DS10E running VMS7.2-1 (brand new)c: > DAT tape and CD-ROM fitted, 1 x 9GB internet UWSCSI disk > D > I would like to add a disk storage system to the above, however myM > requirements are not huge. I need to add some sort of removable drive drivenI > arrangement where I can boot/work/shutdown from one disk and remove it,rM > insert another disk and boot from that etc. It is to ensure that 2 projectsdM > do not under any circumstances cross. I have looked on the CPQ web site foreE > removable storage solutions that will fit, but there is data but noCL > INFORMATION to help me. The account manager we have referred my to the web > site!, > J > I remember using BA353 "pizza boxes" (3 slot) once upon a time - this isI > perfect for what i need, but they cannot be purchased as far as i know.a  H You can get them used for arond $100.  Watch ebay, and talk to some usedJ equipment dealers like Great Lakes Computer.  We know that they are comingG into a lot of used SBBs right about now.  Buy cheap, by lots of spares,oH and forget about warranty.  That's one option.  Oh, wait.  You're in theE UK, right?  Great Lakes might not work.  But there are other dealers.m  @ The BA353 only supports narrow drives, and small ones by today'sH standards.  Do you have dual SCSI in the DS10L?  You probably don't want> to put these old fellows on the same bus with your main drive.  F You can also find new 3rd-party SCSI hot-swap configurations.  I don'tE think Compaq is selling any small-scale storageworks these days.  ThesD smallest I see at a glance is the storageworks 4300 enclosure, which3 supports up to 14 drives.  It's probably expensive.   F No, I didn't find this on the web.  I have a printed product catalog IJ picked up at the diamond forum recently.  Call 1-800-345-1518 and ask themF to send you a copy.  The document number seems to be 1469-0301A-XNEN. H Title is "Product guide, volume I, 2001".  It's about an inch thick, and= covers ipaq to wildfire, billy-ware to VMS.  No prices, alas.d   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 18:07:28 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40) 7 Subject: Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10m! Message-ID: <GmwtFX7kIa8d@gaelic>e  5 In article <992436822.490846@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>, -6 "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@removeme.hotmail.com> writes:1 > Alphastation DS10E running VMS7.2-1 (brand new)r: > DAT tape and CD-ROM fitted, 1 x 9GB internet UWSCSI disk > D > I would like to add a disk storage system to the above, however myM > requirements are not huge. I need to add some sort of removable drive drive  [...] J > I remember using BA353 "pizza boxes" (3 slot) once upon a time - this isK > perfect for what i need, but they cannot be purchased as far as i know. IcN > would prefer a COMPAQ solution as warranty is important and that which comesF > with the DS10 is a good deal. If any in this group could point me toG > somewhere where i can get information (and a picture) i would be most H > grateful. Any solution considered, it must be removable disks however.  K BA353 may be available in second hand. They are not officially supported onmF DS10 but I have one with 3xRZ26 at home on channel B of an IntraserverM controller (KZPCM-DA) (channel A is for the Internal 9Gb drives) and there is E no problems.  I also have a Qlogic controller (used for DAT and DLT).i  J However, BA353 cannot hold recent drives (even RZ29 are too hot for them).   Patrickd --O ===============================================================================oO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)h4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:27:11 GMT 4 From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@removeme.hotmail.com>7 Subject: Re: Disk Storage Options for Alphastation DS10-4 Message-ID: <992449290.885641@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>   > J > BA353 may be available in second hand. They are not officially supported onH > DS10 but I have one with 3xRZ26 at home on channel B of an IntraserverL > controller (KZPCM-DA) (channel A is for the Internal 9Gb drives) and there isG > no problems.  I also have a Qlogic controller (used for DAT and DLT).: >sL > However, BA353 cannot hold recent drives (even RZ29 are too hot for them). >I	 > PatrickL  K Thanks for the help from all so far. I am looking for new equipment though, I it should not be used or "second hand". I have had some leads sent to me,u4 for which I thank you all! Keep the thoughts coming.   Cheers   Andy   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 11:29:43 -05004 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius)* Subject: Re: DS10 homede boot disk problem3 Message-ID: <+f14UyUpyZtn@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  k In article <OF43D12003.989EC303-ON80256A69.0034AE5F@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:e >  > M > This might not answer the initial question, but it might help your process. M > I use LD off the freeware CD to create and map a file as a logical disk andoI > then use backup to transfer the system disk structure to the virtual oro > logical disk.  So :t > $ > $ LD CREATE SYSDSK.DSK/SIZ=1300000 > $ CONNECT SYSDSK.DSK LDA100  > $ MOUNT/FOREIGN LDA100:-9 > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/NOALIAS/IGNORE=INTERLOCK DKA100: LDA100:o< > $! where DKA100 is the system disk that I want to back up. > $! > $ DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD LDA100:a > $ MOUNT/OVER=IDENT LDA100:
 > $ MC SYSGEN ) > USE LDA100:[SYS0.SYSEXE]ALPHAVMSSYS.PARy > SET WLKSYSDSK 1- > WRITE CURRENT-  D Thanks for the info on the WLKSYSDSK parameter.  I suspect, however,A that you meant to write the updated parameters back to LDA100 andJ  not to your current system disk?   --8 George Cornelius              cornelius@eisner.decus.org0                               cornelius@mayo.edu   > $ DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD LDA100:  > $ LD DISCONN LDA100: > M > WLKSYSDSK is described in the help files within SYSGEN and is an Alpha only  > parameter.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:26:59 +0100n- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>sI Subject: Re: error message while copying a file frome one node to anothert1 Message-ID: <3B2626B3.BCC4E58C@BlueBubble.UK.Com>    Olivier Vitrat wrote:t  J > I have the following error when I try to copy a file from node ALPHA1 to > node ALPHA2::. > @ > ALPHA1> cop/lo SATR.TEST ALPHA2"uhlp password"::disk7:<000000>- > %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing ALPHA2"uhlpn& > password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8 > I > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, CODE$ROOT:<SENDVAX>SATR.TEST;86 not completely copiedb- > %COPY-E-CLOSEOUT, error closing ALPHA2"uhlph& > password"::DISK7:[000000]SATR.TEST;8
 > 6 as outputc/ > -RMS-F-SYS, QIO system service request failed ; > -SYSTEM-F-LINKABORT, network partner aborted logical linko > ' > The file is not big, only 2395 blocks.? > Any  idea of what can be the problem  (Decnet parameters ???)   * Please post the output from the following:  + 	$ dir/full CODE$ROOT:<SENDVAX>SATR.TEST;86  	$ show rmsd   and the output on ALPHA2 from:   	$ show rmse  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:49:36 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> E Subject: Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ stt8 Message-ID: <80aeit86h4j3o941276o25ua31r0f9utuo@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:39:18 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:-   >-< >Uh ... no it does not.  See the commentary for June 12 from@ >the Cato Institute at http://www.cato.org/commentary/index.html  E Again the document you quote does not support that statement. It does < point out that there are a significant *minority* of climateE scientists who disagree with the majority findings (and the author isuD one of the minority) and it does point at some conflicting evidence.# However even the author concludes: i  = "Is there a pattern here? You bet. By far the most consistent E interpretation of the facts is that warming is destined to be modest.MD Further, the atmosphere has already told us that two- thirds of thisF will take place in the winter, with three-quarters of that in the dead, of Siberia, northwestern Canada and Alaska."  F So even the leading dissenting climate scientists think we are warmingC the planet. Just not by as much as others worry. I do not find thisl highly reassuring. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:41:12 +0010d% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aurE Subject: Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ st-5 Message-ID: <01K4QAB858AQ001GG6@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>c  J Alan Greig, David Beatty, J-F Mezei (just the last handful I've read) and 8 various others said much on either side of the argument.  O Without declaring my rear cheeks both on either side of the fence, doesn't all >; this smack somewhat of the Club of Rome and Thomas Malthus?t  O Comes over beautifully from the Queen recording done for the film: "Flash, you xO have only 24 hours to save the Earth".  (Or similar)  -- poor sod was fighting d for his own life.o   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiae   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,n; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:21:20 -0400a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)E Subject: Re: Global warming? was: Re: (OT) Current Microsoft v DOJ steL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306011121210001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <80aeit86h4j3o941276o25ua31r0f9utuo@4ax.com>, Alan Greig1 <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:H  2 > On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:39:18 -0400, David Beatty+ > <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:g >  > >9> > >Uh ... no it does not.  See the commentary for June 12 fromB > >the Cato Institute at http://www.cato.org/commentary/index.html > ? > Again the document you quote does not support that statement.s  J The statement he made was that most of the media coverage was flat wrong. E That is true.  The NAS report was not unanimous or clear-cut, but thehI press said that it was.  Once of the strong conclusions of the report wastE uncertainty -- uncertainty about future trends, and uncertainty about E cause and effect.  None of that uncertainty was even hinted at in thee" mainstream U.S. press, that I saw.  F As these studies have been compiled and summarized several times, whatJ gets the most attention is always the most extreme, panic-stricken view ofF global warming.  The science does not support any such extreme view.    	 > It doess> > point out that there are a significant *minority* of climateG > scientists who disagree with the majority findings (and the author issF > one of the minority) and it does point at some conflicting evidence.  G Don't forget that climate-change scientists, like all government-fundedtI scientists, have a vested self-interest.  More research money will appear I as long as global warming is kept in the public eye.  Some of these folks.@ do not like dissent, since it costs them money.  And alas, theseG high-visibility study groups have a lot of people hand-picked to take a= certain view in advance.  % > However even the author concludes: F > ? > "Is there a pattern here? You bet. By far the most consistentHG > interpretation of the facts is that warming is destined to be modest.=F > Further, the atmosphere has already told us that two- thirds of thisH > will take place in the winter, with three-quarters of that in the dead. > of Siberia, northwestern Canada and Alaska." > H > So even the leading dissenting climate scientists think we are warmingE > the planet. Just not by as much as others worry. I do not find this. > highly reassuring.  H What you quoted does not support the statement you make.  You've taken aG quote out of context, ignored other parts of his column that contradict.F your view, and then extrapolated to make him appear to agree with you.  I Specifically, "warming is destined to be modest" does NOT lead to "we are I warming the planet" by any proper logic.  He does not agree that "we" areuI an established cause of the warming.  He says we MAY be the cause of SOMEo> of it.  He also says the evidence to date does NOT support theD frequently-heard dire predictions.  I am disturbed that so many keep0 demanding a Megaton response to a kilogram risk.  H When I first read the NAS report (before this rebuttal was published), IE was struck by how little was there.  It didn't say anything new.  The I headlines went far beyond the actual report.  The report's summary is notsG representative of the body of the report.  But mainly, this report is acF summary of other summaries.  IF there was any news, it was months ago," when the research was published.  @ The press couldn't be bothered to digest that.  In this case the) journalists were both lazy and dishonest.s   -- s Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:01:25 +0100e From: steve.lock@bt.coms0 Subject: I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely?Q Message-ID: <71DA16F18D32D2119A1D0000F8FE9A940F3ABB8F@mbtlipnt01.btlabs.bt.co.uk>n  	 Hi folks,8  E Has anybody out there ever seen I/O completion ASTs apparently firingsG prematurely?  I've been working with VMS since 1987 and have never seen. it... until now!  J I have a server which uses the QIO interface to perform asynchronous reads, and writes over IP.   Nothing special there.  J Often, but not always, the read or write completion AST fires with an IOSBE completion status of 0.  A few milliseconds later, whilst still in myt6 user-mode AST, the completion code becomes SS$_NORMAL!  K This took me an age to track down, because it's so timing sensitive that nooD matter what I did (printf, running in debug, etc) seemed to cure the problem!  2 In the end, I did this, just to prove the problem:   	x = iosb.io_status; 	if (x == 0) {6 		for (i = 0; i < 100000 && iosb.io_status == 0; i++); 		lib$signal( SS$_DEBUG ); 	}  E After the debugger has fired up, I examine x, and it has the value 0. K Examine iosb.io_status and it has the value 1.  The number of iterations istJ typically between 3,000 and 4,000.  Clearly something is fiddling with the IOSB AFTER the AST has fired.c  C I've never seen this before, and am struggling to think of sensiblea work-around.    G This problem occurs even when I have only one active channel.  The readnL IOSBs are stored in a static array, on a per-channel basis and I have a flagJ to remove the possibility of queuing multiple reads on the same channel.    L The write IOSBs are allocated dynamically (because it's entirely possible to" have multiple writes outstanding).  G I mention the above to make the point that the IOSBs are not reused fortK multiple concurrent I/Os, which would perhaps allow another kernel-mode QIO = completion to mess with the IOSB after invoking the user AST.e  " A few points about my environment:   	o  I'm running VMS 7.1.A 	o DIGITAL TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 - ECO 1t" 	o I'm talking to an SCO Unix box.  J I realise that this is a particularly old version of UCX, but I've trawledI the release notes for 4.7 ECO3 and 5.0a up to ECO2 and can't see anything-5 that "obviously" points at fixing this sort of thing.    Any and all ideas appreciated.   TIA, Steve Lock.e
 ----------( Disclaimer:  I speak for me, not for BT.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 06:54:19 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)s4 Subject: Re: I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely?3 Message-ID: <ApZmb93d0ctj@eisner.encompasserve.org>V  k In article <71DA16F18D32D2119A1D0000F8FE9A940F3ABB8F@mbtlipnt01.btlabs.bt.co.uk>, steve.lock@bt.com writes:i > Hi folks,s > G > Has anybody out there ever seen I/O completion ASTs apparently firing I > prematurely?  I've been working with VMS since 1987 and have never seenn > it... until now! > L > I have a server which uses the QIO interface to perform asynchronous reads. > and writes over IP.   Nothing special there. > L > Often, but not always, the read or write completion AST fires with an IOSBG > completion status of 0.  A few milliseconds later, whilst still in mya8 > user-mode AST, the completion code becomes SS$_NORMAL!  H Every time I have ever chased an instance of this (not necessarily in myH own code), it turned out to be inappropriate sharing of AST routines and IOSB addresses.   @ But what you describe is fully within the capability of a faulty IP device driver.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:38:55 -0500 " From: Earl Lakia <lakia@ipact.com>4 Subject: Re: I/O completion ASTs firing prematurely?) Message-ID: <3B275EDF.8C42322C@ipact.com>e  J The most probable reason is that the AST routine is specified for multipleA QIO calls.  The previous I/O is completing not the one you think.l  = Also when the QIO is successfully queued, the IOSB is clearedl@ by the system.  In this case the IO status block is being shared by two different QIO calls.f     --
 Earl Lakia       steve.lock@bt.com wrote:   > Hi folks,g >rG > Has anybody out there ever seen I/O completion ASTs apparently firing I > prematurely?  I've been working with VMS since 1987 and have never seeno > it... until now! > L > I have a server which uses the QIO interface to perform asynchronous reads. > and writes over IP.   Nothing special there. > L > Often, but not always, the read or write completion AST fires with an IOSBG > completion status of 0.  A few milliseconds later, whilst still in myo8 > user-mode AST, the completion code becomes SS$_NORMAL! >eM > This took me an age to track down, because it's so timing sensitive that noaF > matter what I did (printf, running in debug, etc) seemed to cure the
 > problem! >T4 > In the end, I did this, just to prove the problem: >o >         x = iosb.io_status;D >         if (x == 0) { F >                 for (i = 0; i < 100000 && iosb.io_status == 0; i++);* >                 lib$signal( SS$_DEBUG ); >         }D >EG > After the debugger has fired up, I examine x, and it has the value 0.eM > Examine iosb.io_status and it has the value 1.  The number of iterations is L > typically between 3,000 and 4,000.  Clearly something is fiddling with the > IOSB AFTER the AST has fired.r >iE > I've never seen this before, and am struggling to think of sensibleo > work-around. >tI > This problem occurs even when I have only one active channel.  The readiN > IOSBs are stored in a static array, on a per-channel basis and I have a flagJ > to remove the possibility of queuing multiple reads on the same channel. >oN > The write IOSBs are allocated dynamically (because it's entirely possible to$ > have multiple writes outstanding). > I > I mention the above to make the point that the IOSBs are not reused fortM > multiple concurrent I/Os, which would perhaps allow another kernel-mode QIOC? > completion to mess with the IOSB after invoking the user AST.o >o$ > A few points about my environment: >u! >         o  I'm running VMS 7.1.BJ >         o DIGITAL TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 - ECO 1+ >         o I'm talking to an SCO Unix box.= >=L > I realise that this is a particularly old version of UCX, but I've trawledK > the release notes for 4.7 ECO3 and 5.0a up to ECO2 and can't see anything 7 > that "obviously" points at fixing this sort of thing.  >/  > Any and all ideas appreciated. >5 > TIA,
 > Steve Lock.  > ----------* > Disclaimer:  I speak for me, not for BT.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:33:01 GMTtB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>+ Subject: Is the DFU source code available ?=6 Message-ID: <14JV6.6627$pb1.250931@www.newsranger.com>  E Does anyone know if the DFU source code is available, and if so, fromd which location ?  D BTW, the kind of thing that I am interested in looking at adding is,J for example, to get a list of files using blocks around a specific LBN andJ to find the location of the 'n' (n > 1) biggest chunks of contiguous space on the disk.  C With this, you could defragment the file structure, instead of justr individual files.l  G [Search currently has a /LBN qualifier, but you can't specify a range.]v   Simon.   -- l; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPdK Worrying idea #101: What if Microsoft goes into the Ada compiler business ?r   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:54:58 GMTo- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)m/ Subject: Re: Is the DFU source code available ?K0 Message-ID: <3b277e89.69457524@news.process.com>  / On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:33:01 GMT, Simon Clubley25 <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> wrote:o  F >Does anyone know if the DFU source code is available, and if so, from >which location ?a >rG Sources for older versions used to be available, but I haven't seen anyt" sources for the last few versions.  I (The V4.0 Freeware CD has sources for DFU V2.2, but nothing more recent.)t   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:03:15 -0400C- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>K/ Subject: Re: Is the DFU source code available ?K4 Message-ID: <phLV6.248723$Z2.2876642@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  D "Simon Clubley" <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> wrote; in message news:14JV6.6627$pb1.250931@www.newsranger.com...C >...F > BTW, the kind of thing that I am interested in looking at adding is,D > for example, to get a list of files using blocks around a specific LBN andeF > to find the location of the 'n' (n > 1) biggest chunks of contiguous spaceo > on the disk. >...  ? Not really answering you question, but this might help with theg? problem you are looking to solve. This is a little hack I threwTF together to try to increase the size of the largest contiguous space IF had when I could not do a backup/restore. I used it the other day on aA disk that had 104,000 free blocks but the largest free contiguous0A space was 128 blocks. After playing with this for a while I had aeE contiguous space almost 2000 blocks and a dozen or so in the range ofDB 500-1000 free blocks (there is a program on DSN that shows you how, many hunks of space you have in each range).  E When you hit a wall (i.e. an open file or a file that is too large toT0 move) then allocate that space with a $ COPY NL:= device:[dir]file/CONT/ALLO=size and then try this .COM again.[  D (It is really not pretty, but it got me over a bad situtation when IB had no other options, I would not run this unless I really had to)     $ type increase_free.com8 $ if "''p1'" .eqs. "" then inquire p1 "Enter the Device": $ if "''f$getdvi(p1,"devclass")'" .nes. "1" then goto done $! $ assign/nolog x dfu$nosmg $! $ last_free = 0, $! $loop: $ dfu report 'p1'/nofil/novol  $!# $ inquire LFE "Largest Free Extent"  $ if lfe .eq. 0 then goto done. $ if lfe .ne. last_free .and. last_free .ne. 0 $       then? $               num_blocks = 'f$file_attributes(filename,"ALQ") . $               change_lfe = 'lfe - 'last_free" $               write sys$output -B   f$fao("The free space changed by !SW block!%S after moving a !SL
 block!%S filea ",change_lfe,num_blocks)
 $       endifD $! $ last_free = f$integer(lfe) $! $ inquire AT_LBN "At LBN" ! $ if at_lbn .eq. 0 then goto done0 $ if "''p2'" .eqs. "DOWN"t $       then+ $               lbn = 'f$integer(at_lbn) -1t $       else: $               lbn = 'f$integer(lfe) + 'f$integer(at_lbn)
 $       endift $! $ dfu search 'p1 /lbn='lbn' $ inquire filename "Enter the filename"e $!$ $               dfu defrag 'filename $ goto loop* $! $done: $ set terminal/linew $!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:54:29 -0400). From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>2 Subject: Missing docs on VMS 7.3 documentation CD?+ Message-ID: <9g82aa$op3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>i  J I am looking for AA-QSBCC-TE, OpenVMS Alpha Guide to 64-Bit Addressing andK VLM Features.  Other manuals (i.e., the OpenVMS System Management Utilitiest& Reference Manual) still refer to this.  I I was wondering if it had been re-named; I'm not able to locate it on thee CD.h   Thanks.i   Ken Randelle    PS. Yes I know I can get it from< http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6467/6467pro.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:57:01 -0500e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>d( Subject: RE: Misuse of OpenVMS MarketingL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F4C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----; > From: Terry C. Shannon [mailto:terryshannon@mediaone.net]n  @ > Yep. Have heard the same. Have also heard, from very reliable  > sources, thath= > Wes Melling was brought in to be the Doc Kevorkian of VMS. d > Obviously this6 > did not happen, customers wouldn't stand for it and  > Windows/NT is by nol@ > means the functional equivalent of VMS (or MVS, NSK, Solaris, 
 > Tru64, etc)t- > nor will it be for quite some time to come.a  " .. or CP/M, or Applesoft BASIC ...   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");0 'm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:40:10 -0500a+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>u Subject: RE: OT - Perl HackeroL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1F4B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Michael Austin [mailto:miaustin@bellsouth.net]  ) > Cristopher Smith has as his "by-line" :o >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  > 'a  F > So I thought I would test it on my OpenVMS version of PERL.  Results > were interesting...    [snip]  C > Backslash found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "xc4\"g4 > Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. > %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort  9 I'd have expected this.  It's a non-portable signature ;)t   > Let's try this again....   > $PERLyA > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  >  Not Another Perl Hacker!v  $ > The things we find interesting....  I Unfortunately, my job doesn't presently allow me the privilege of workingsG with Perl under VMS.  Neither do I have it on my VAXen at home, so.. :)r  0 Honestly, the //'s should have given it away. :)  I On a more interesting note, I wonder whether it would be possible to maket both Bourne and DCL take it?   Regards,   Chrisv  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerl Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");s 'n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:41:24 -0500t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c Subject: Re: OT: W2K bugst' Message-ID: <3B276D84.3633993C@fsi.net>   " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > K > This is scary. Here's a list of hotfixes for bugs, with related articles,lC > /since/ service pack 2. There's over 200 of them. Sorry about the ( > inevitable word wrap, it's a long one. >  > http://support.microsoft.com/support/servicepacks/windows/2000/win2000_post-sp2_hotfixes.asp?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0&qry=lock%20up&rnk=77&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=WIN2000 > I > I notice several refer to incompatabilities between W2K and other OS's.aI > This surprises me. Not that they existed, but that MS fixed them... ;-)t   W2K *IS* a bug!e   The only known fix is:   A:\> FORMAT/U C:   -- o David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:02:09 -0700a- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>a5 Subject: Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...o+ Message-ID: <3B272C11.B6483B9@peoplepc.com>e   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > + > In article <3B26BD0F.39872606@wi.rr.com>,.+ >    Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:i > >cL > > If you want one of our old drives (a number of folks emailed me directly > > asking for one3 > > or two at a time), you can contact Great Lakes.c > B >    But only if you live in the US, Great Lakes doesn't appear toE > want to do business internationally ( at least they never respondeduE > to my emails when I asked for pricing on a DS20 a few months ago ).s > 8 >    Too bad you didn't ship them to Island Computer :-)      D So can I get you two to start a bidding war for my rz23, rz24, rz25, rz26 and rz28's ?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:43:37 -0500m1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 5 Subject: Re: Our narrow SBB disks are now for sale...e' Message-ID: <3B276E09.E7C0F9C6@fsi.net>o   Jack Patteeuw wrote: >  > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > - > > In article <3B26BD0F.39872606@wi.rr.com>,,- > >    Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:b > > > N > > > If you want one of our old drives (a number of folks emailed me directly > > > asking for one5 > > > or two at a time), you can contact Great Lakes.b > >uD > >    But only if you live in the US, Great Lakes doesn't appear toG > > want to do business internationally ( at least they never responded G > > to my emails when I asked for pricing on a DS20 a few months ago ).o > >a: > >    Too bad you didn't ship them to Island Computer :-) > F > So can I get you two to start a bidding war for my rz23, rz24, rz25, > rz26 and rz28's ?w  ; I'll open with this: I bid $50 US for a good, used RZ40-VA.m   --   David J. DachteraR dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:42:08 +0100 2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk>/ Subject: Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CD . Message-ID: <3B274380.1437ACA5@CCAgroup.co.uk>   Chris Sharman wrote:D > I've done some work on jump for my own purposes, and emailed it toB > Jonathan Ridler, but I've had no response. If the above doesn't & That's untrue, sorry - I was confused.C Jonathan was at Compaq last September - I haven't more recent info.    Christ   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:03:05 +0100'2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>/ Subject: Re: Problem with JUMP from FREEWARE CDh1 Message-ID: <009FD780.E28C282F.20@ccagroup.co.uk>n  M >I haven't followed all of the code, but I'm guessing that my problem is thattL >ACCESS has the value UNSPECIFIED instead of GRANTED. It's almost as if it's- >not reading my JUMP_ACCESS_LIST file at all.    Yes.  H >In fact, I just renamed the file from .DAT to .FUBAR and I get the sameH >error, but I do NOT get the expected '%JUMP-F-BADACCFIL, Failed to open >access list file; error '..  I That turns up for file not found, not for RMS$_PRV (or the Pascal equiv).tL The code handles success, and file not found, but other errors fail quietly, which is perhaps slack.a  L >JUMP_ACCESS.DAT;1   1/9  12-JUN-2001 11:52:55.66  [SYSTEM]   (RWED,RWED,,R)  E I mentioned before that jump opens JUMP_ACCESS_LIST with history:=oldKF (read/write) on line 1397 within check_access_and_options, when really! it ought to be history:=readonly.s   You (wisely) have the file w:r.DJ Make the history:=readonly fix to line 1397 (V3.4) and it should all work.  N For completeness, check_access_and_options should report all errors I suppose:N ss$_nopriv is true enough, but it would be nice to have a more specific error.   Regards,
 Chris SharmannG _______________________________________________________________________s8 Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk		http://www.ccagroup.co.uk/C CCA Stationery Ltd, Eastway, Fulwood, Preston, Lancashire, PR2 9WS.     G -----------------------------------------------------------------------s  C Any views expressed in this message are those of the sender and not!B necessarily those of CCA Group.  The unauthorized use, disclosure,D copying or alteration of this message is forbidden.  The contents ofG this message may be confidential and/or privileged, copyright CCA GrouphG and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom-D they are addressed.  Whilst this message has been scanned, CCA GroupF cannot guarantee that it is virus free or compatible with your systemsE and accepts no responsibility for any loss or damage arising from itshF use. The recipient is advised to run their own anti-virus software. If0 you receive this message in error please contactG postmaster@ccagroup.co.uk immediately, destroy any copies and delete it  from your computer systems.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:30:48 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> 6 Subject: Re: Problem with large queue lengths on disk.. Message-ID: <3B278640.D8349BB@cableinet.co.uk>   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > J > Sorry for the many posts.  The newsgroup server claimed to have an error) > while receiving, but I guess it didn't.  >   2 you could have tried cancelling all but the first.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:04:52 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o Subject: Problems with V7.3?0 Message-ID: <009FD767.FD21EA80@SendSpamHere.ORG>  I Has anybody installed V7.3 on a Rawhide machine?  (AS1200, 533au, etc.)   I (hint, if SYS$CPU_ROUTINES_1605 appears with SDA SHOW EXEC, this is you!)   + If so, I'd like to hear your experiences.  e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             0O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2001 13:57:57 GMT# From: dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.comi  Subject: Re: Problems with V7.3?+ Message-ID: <9g7rh5$nlu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>w  ` On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:04:52 GMT, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@sendspamhere.org> wrote:K > Has anybody installed V7.3 on a Rawhide machine?  (AS1200, 533au, etc.)  kK > (hint, if SYS$CPU_ROUTINES_1605 appears with SDA SHOW EXEC, this is you!) - > If so, I'd like to hear your experiences.  y  C I have a dual-processor AS1200, but I haven't done the V7.3 upgrade C yet.  I'll probably wait for about a month.  Are you expecting some 	 problems?e   -- i? Dale Dellutri -- dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.com (no Q's, no X's)o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:38:08 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h  Subject: Re: Problems with V7.3?0 Message-ID: <009FD77D.667D6E60@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Q In article <9g7rh5$nlu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.com writes:ia >On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:04:52 GMT, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@sendspamhere.org> wrote: L >> Has anybody installed V7.3 on a Rawhide machine?  (AS1200, 533au, etc.)  L >> (hint, if SYS$CPU_ROUTINES_1605 appears with SDA SHOW EXEC, this is you!). >> If so, I'd like to hear your experiences.   >iD >I have a dual-processor AS1200, but I haven't done the V7.3 upgradeD >yet.  I'll probably wait for about a month.  Are you expecting some
 >problems?  9 Expecting?  No.  Having?  Yes.  Bugchecks in PCI_SUPPORT.e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            jO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:23:01 -0400 . From: "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca>  Subject: Re: Problems with V7.3?4 Message-ID: <lFNV6.248796$Z2.2877393@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  I Is this causing a non-running system, a crashing system or just bugchecksn being logged  K What version of the SRM console are you running, I was told you had to have  V6.0    J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FD77D.667D6E60@SendSpamHere.ORG...K > In article <9g7rh5$nlu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.comd writes:gB > >On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:04:52 GMT, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-  <system@sendspamhere.org> wrote:L > >> Has anybody installed V7.3 on a Rawhide machine?  (AS1200, 533au, etc.)H > >> (hint, if SYS$CPU_ROUTINES_1605 appears with SDA SHOW EXEC, this is you!)8. > >> If so, I'd like to hear your experiences. > >2F > >I have a dual-processor AS1200, but I haven't done the V7.3 upgradeF > >yet.  I'll probably wait for about a month.  Are you expecting some > >problems? >i; > Expecting?  No.  Having?  Yes.  Bugchecks in PCI_SUPPORT.i >l > --4 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >aK > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named afterG them.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:57:44 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Quotations from Chairman Matco1; Message-ID: <crJV6.1768$%f.1643527@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>j  A "Charlie Matco in the DFWCUG Bunker of Doom" is now available for29 downloading from www.acersoft.com and www.theinquirer.netl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:35:46 +100004 From: Chris Poppins <Chris.Poppins@colesmyer.com.au> Subject: set ho/mopsO Message-ID: <4939D322F688D311B7690000F81FDCD30418CC9F@neptune.colesmyer.com.au>a  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ( --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;s 	charset="iso-8859-1"a  	 Hi there,qC 	I think that there is a set ho/mop command, but I can't figure outl the syntax.   
 any ideas?   thanks  
 Chris Poppinsi  	 CCIE 4306i CML WAN Architecto% email: chris.poppins@colesmyer.com.aud Desk: 61-3-94837547  Mobile: 0438007025 snail: 53 Hoddle st Abbotsford    ( --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;l  	name="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitb  Content-Disposition: attachment;$ 	filename="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt"  9 This email and any attachments may contain privileged and 7 confidential information and are intended for the named < addressee only.  If you have received this e-mail in error, = please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately. h= Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or t< lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error.  It 4 is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any  attachments for viruses.  * --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:27:15 +0200n+ From: Maarten van Tilburg <mtilburg@wxs.nl>l Subject: Re: set ho/mopo& Message-ID: <3B274003.D53E9D67@wxs.nl>   Chris Poppins wrote: >  > Hi there,oL >         I think that there is a set ho/mop command, but I can't figure out
 > the syntax.= >  > any ideas? >  > thanks >  > Chris Poppins  >   $ A little search on google revealed :  L http://www-sld.slac.stanford.edu/HELP/DECNET-PLUS/DCL_COMMANDS/SET/HOST/_MOP   /MOPB    Connects your system to a remote system using the MOP protocol.  	    Format$         SET HOST/MOP  client-name"      ! Additional information available:n Parameter       Qualifiers6 /ADDRESS=lan-address            /BREAK=break-character@ /CIRCUIT=circuit-name           /DISCONNECT=disconnect-character  /VERIFICATION=hexidecimal-digits   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:25:15 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: set ho/moplL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306011125160001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>  : In article <3B274003.D53E9D67@wxs.nl>, Maarten van Tilburg <mtilburg@wxs.nl> wrote:   > Chris Poppins wrote: > > 
 > > Hi there,@N > >         I think that there is a set ho/mop command, but I can't figure out > > the syntax.  > >  > > any ideas? > > 
 > > thanks > >  > > Chris Poppins  > >  > & > A little search on google revealed : > N > http://www-sld.slac.stanford.edu/HELP/DECNET-PLUS/DCL_COMMANDS/SET/HOST/_MOP >  > /MOPD >    Connects your system to a remote system using the MOP protocol. >  >    Format0 > ! >       SET HOST/MOP  client-name-    H Yes.  But I've never been able to make it DO anything.  We have some DECF 3000 systems that seem to support some kind of MOP remote console, forG example.  But SET HOST/MOP  from another system can't connect, and I've.F tried many combinations of the command and console settings on the DEC 3000.n  = Any examples of useful, functional SET HOST/MOP applications?,   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:34:51 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)i Subject: Re: set ho/mopc0 Message-ID: <009FD785.528602E6@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <rdeininger-1306011125160001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:p; >In article <3B274003.D53E9D67@wxs.nl>, Maarten van Tilburgn ><mtilburg@wxs.nl> wrote:c >e >> Chris Poppins wrote:k >> > \ >> > Hi there,O >> >         I think that there is a set ho/mop command, but I can't figure out  >> > the syntax. >> > @ >> > any ideas?j >> > : >> > thanksc >> > e >> > Chris Poppins >> > 9 >> 9' >> A little search on google revealed :  >> -O >> http://www-sld.slac.stanford.edu/HELP/DECNET-PLUS/DCL_COMMANDS/SET/HOST/_MOP  >> r >> /MOPSE >>    Connects your system to a remote system using the MOP protocol.\ >> e >>    Format >> r" >>       SET HOST/MOP  client-name >I >oI >Yes.  But I've never been able to make it DO anything.  We have some DECsG >3000 systems that seem to support some kind of MOP remote console, foreH >example.  But SET HOST/MOP  from another system can't connect, and I'veG >tried many combinations of the command and console settings on the DECg >3000. > > >Any examples of useful, functional SET HOST/MOP applications?   Is MOP configured???  & $ MCR NCL SHOW MOP ALL CHARACTERISTICS  
 Node 0 MOP$ at 2001-06-13-11:32:21.979-04:00Iinf   Characteristicso  .     Version                           = V4.0.0'     Supported Functions               =h        {           Loop Requester ,           Console Requester ,e           Load Server ,a           Dump Server , !           Configuration Monitor ,            Test Requester ,           Query Requesterh        }  # Have you defined the MOP clients???s  + $ MCR NCL SHOW MOP CLIENT * ALL IDENTIFIERS~   Node 0 MOP Client DECbridge90 $ at 2001-06-13-11:33:36.459-04:00Iinf   Identifiers-  3     Name                              = DECbridge90      Node 0 MOP Client DECbrouter90$ at 2001-06-13-11:33:36.456-04:00Iinf   Identifiers2  4     Name                              = DECbrouter90     Node 0 MOP Client DECagent90$ at 2001-06-13-11:33:36.456-04:00Iinf   Identifiersl  2     Name                              = DECagent90   ... and so on...   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            wO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.=   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:36:52 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>( Subject: Re: Streaming of multiple filesJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0106131527230.12545-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  ' On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, John Santos wrote:p  * >+On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Peter Weaver wrote: [...]oG >+> If the application can work with SYS$PIPE then you can do something  [...]VF >+> But I tried this with PRINT and PRINT did not like using SYS$PIPE. >+> / >+> You could also create a temporary file liked >+> 5 >+>     $ APPEND HEADER.PS,MAIN.PS,TRAILER.PS TEMP.PSo >+>     $ PRINT TEMP.PS /DELETEy >+> H >+> For some reason I see people who say they want to avoid the overhead; >+> of creating a temporary file and they use PIPE instead.u  @  Really: at least no problem with saved (not deleted) temporary ! files when the command "crashes".a   >+> But IMHO PIPE 8 >+> is a bigger overhead than creating a temporary file.  (  Why ? The subprocess creation ? May be.  E >+Huh?  If PIPE worked, it would have to work by creating a temporaryt
 >+file, [...]f    Huh ?? >  That not first time, when have express here my surprise about9 the fact that PIPE may work with intermediate files... ;>   ;  Say us, is that by instance your self-suggestion based of n the DOS knowledge ??  -:)      Regards - Gotfryd   -- eE =====================================================================tF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME'. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================p   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:06:03 GMTsB From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>B Subject: Re: Tools to Port to OpenVMS? (was RE: The future of VMS)6 Message-ID: <LGIV6.6607$pb1.250062@www.newsranger.com>  N On 11 Jun 2001 17:15:35 GMT, in article <9g2ubn$308t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:g >rA >While we no longer use Ada for teaching at the lowere levels, at B >least this years and next years seniors should have gone through 3 >the classes that used Ada extensively.  Comments??t >  >bille >n  K Just curious, but do you know the reason for Ada been dropped as a teaching  language in your classes ?   Simon.   -- I; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFPdK Worrying idea #101: What if Microsoft goes into the Ada compiler business ?:   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:37:22 GMT 2 From: seibel_r@localhost.localdomain (Rich Seibel)* Subject: Re: Unix equivalent of set verify; Message-ID: <slrn9if259.hnk.seibel_r@localhost.localdomain>r  N On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:17:32 GMT, Bernie <bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au>  wrote: >Hi,N >Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will P >know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY on Q >an AIX system using the Korn shell. I know how to do it whan invoking a script, aQ >ie ksh -v scriptname or ksh -xv scriptname, but I can't find any information on  L >how to do it from within a script i.e., using f$verify(value) for when the D >shell script has the execute permission set and is invoked directly >t" >Any answers would be appreciated. >s >thankst >Bernie. >rH Most of the command line switch are available within the script with the3 "set" command.  In particular the ones you mention.-	    set -va
    set -xvH Also from within the script, you can see which switches are set with the special variable $-l     HTHU -- oD --------------------------------------------------------------------D Rich Seibel, Software Engineer                 (314)579-0066 ext 220D Object Computing, Inc.                           seibel_r@ociweb.comD Need ACE training?                      See http://www.theaceorb.comD --------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 08:28:43 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h* Subject: Re: Unix equivalent of set verify3 Message-ID: <FZrFtzIbnk20@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  h In article <gqxV6.15$q03.2351@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, bernie.milosavljevic@wesley.com.au (Bernie) writes: > Hi,2O > Sorry about this being a Unix question on the VMS but hopefully someone will JQ > know the answer to my question.I want to do the equivalent of a  SET VERIFY on n% > an AIX system using the Korn shell.h  F Inside the script use "set -xv" to turn it on and "set +xv| to turn it off.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupiE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying_   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:33:01 +0200/7 From: "Oliver Becker" <oliver.becker@alba-software.com>d0 Subject: VMS Contract Opportunities - Europewide/ Message-ID: <9g813g$rut$07$1@news.t-online.com>-   Dear VMS Specialist   C Alba Software is a specialist recruitment consultancy, providing IT . specialists to Europes Leading Finance Houses.  F The VMS platform is a popular choice of operating system for financial" institutions due to its stability.  J As such we are always seeking experienced developers on VMS with knowledgeB of a combination of the following: Cobol, C, Pro*C, C++, SQL, DCL,2 Oracle/Rdb (No financial experience is necessary).  I Contract vacancies exist across Europe, with the main sites being London,s Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Brussels.e  L Should you be interested to talk in more detail about VMS development roles,0 please contact us: (EU work permit holders only)  
 Oliver Beckera Alba Software Technology" No.1 Poultry, London, EC2R 8JR, UK   Tel:    +44 (0)20 7643 2211s Fax:   +44 (0)20 7643 2628 projects@alba-software.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:17:44 GMT  From: adroso@home.com (ADR)a Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT9 Message-ID: <3b270ea1.96946170@news.jamison1.pa.home.com>o   Michael,  C Verify that your account has VOLPRO priviledge in case your accounteF changed for some reason ($ SET PROC /PRIV=ALL may help too).  And this? may be a long shot, but there's certainly no harm in trying ...-  B $ INI /OVER=(OWNER_IDENTIFIER,ACCESSIBILITY,EXPIRATION) MUA0: TEST  	 -- ADR --h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:40:32 -0400.- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>l Subject: Re: VMS5.1 and INIT- Message-ID: <3B275F3F.3A013335@bellsouth.net>O  E nope, it is an INIT.EXE that does not work beyond 1999.  These people B never applied the 5.1-1 ECO that would have corrected the problem.   Michael.  
 ADR wrote:  
 > Michael, >)E > Verify that your account has VOLPRO priviledge in case your accounttH > changed for some reason ($ SET PROC /PRIV=ALL may help too).  And thisA > may be a long shot, but there's certainly no harm in trying ...c >RD > $ INI /OVER=(OWNER_IDENTIFIER,ACCESSIBILITY,EXPIRATION) MUA0: TEST >n > -- ADR --2   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:57:58 -0400r From: "John McDen" <jj@jj.moc> Subject: VMSTARa+ Message-ID: <9g82f1$pf2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>    HelloO  H Have anybody used this utility called "VMSTAR" if yes please I need someK help in this regards. I am trying to tar the file on VMS but the problem isoI it doesn't backup the contents of the sub dir, it creates the sub dir bute- does not copies the files within the sub dir.r    5 Please let me know if somebody can help me in this ..-     Thanks.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:33:51 -0500H1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>R/ Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com and KeyLimeD' Message-ID: <3B276BBF.705C1477@fsi.net>r   Alan Greig wrote:. >  > David Mathog wrote:r > O > > I'm not concerned.  All I ever look at on the Compaq site are VMS pages andy7 > > yet Compaq never mails me anything but ads for PCs.V > >n > f > Yet now in the UK VMS promoting literature from Compaq fairly regularly arrives in the mail. And theJ > situation here was just like that in the US until maybe 6-12 months ago.  : So, what's Compaq/US waiting for? ...a special invitation?   Consider it given, folks!    --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.j   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:28:38 +0400nD From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <junk-     laishev@mail.dls.net     -junk>> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue? Message-ID: <D5IV6.7444$IA5.297734@e420r-atl3.usenetserver.com>h   Hi Bill!. The TCP port must be 9100 for telnet printing.    ? "Bill Sherwood" <adkpb@small-town-america.com> wrote in message53 news:UmwV6.4252$v4.228569@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...oI > We've had our Xerox Document Centre 332/340ST working on our NT networkX just > fineG > for a few months.  Now I am trying to create a print queue on our Vaxc 4105a(H > to print to the Xerox and it keeps stalling.  We have several printersI > (HP5Si and various HP's) printing via TCP/IP that work fine from our NT.J > systems and our Vax system.  I know I'm probably using the wrong port orG > missing something obvious, but I'm just not catching what it is.  I'me tryingD > to use port 515 with a standard VMS print queue (init /queue) withI > "/processor=ucx$telnetsym" and /on="10.1.20.24:515".    I'd r-e-a-l-l-yaJ > appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully pulled this one off. >t > Thanks in advance! >  > -- > Bill Sherwood, MCSE+I- >  >a >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:34:40 +0100a  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queueH Message-ID: <OF1C52456A.E0DCE89B-ON80256A6A.003F4EA4@qedi.quintiles.com>   Ruslan, J It's not clear whether you mention this on the basis of the printer itselfI (I have no experience of the Xerox printers mentioned so couldn't say forp
 sure) or not.i  E Certainly on the VMS side you may configure any port you like (withinB; certain limits :-)) for printing using the UCX$TELNETSYM or K TCPIP$TELNETSYM.  If you use a DECserver connected to a serial printer thisa) is unlikely to use port 9100 for example.s   Steve.   Ruslan R. Laishlev wrote:  >>> . The TCP port must be 9100 for telnet printing. <<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:44:58 +0400rD From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <junk-     laishev@mail.dls.net     -junk>> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue= Message-ID: <IdJV6.6888$n4.61031@e420r-atl4.usenetserver.com>    Hi !F     I have ~10 Xerox printers and use telnet printing, TCP port on the+ printers is 9100 (as well as 2000 or 2501).s  - http://starlet.deltatel.ru/xerox/ - docs set.y  - <steven.reece@quintiles.com> wrote in messagenB news:OF1C52456A.E0DCE89B-ON80256A6A.003F4EA4@qedi.quintiles.com... >  >s	 > Ruslan,eL > It's not clear whether you mention this on the basis of the printer itselfK > (I have no experience of the Xerox printers mentioned so couldn't say for- > sure) or not.t > G > Certainly on the VMS side you may configure any port you like (within = > certain limits :-)) for printing using the UCX$TELNETSYM ornH > TCPIP$TELNETSYM.  If you use a DECserver connected to a serial printer this+ > is unlikely to use port 9100 for example.l >  > Steve. >s > Ruslan R. Laishlev wrote:4 > >>>E0 > The TCP port must be 9100 for telnet printing. > <<<  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:59:18 -0400y From: William_Bochnik@acml.com> Subject: Re: Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print queue> Message-ID: <OF0D934C25.D1B40044-ON85256A6A.004CAE9F@acml.com>  A This is the only way I've found to get our DC to work.  Set it up - as a UCX queue with the following parameters:    WP|wp:\O*         :lf=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/WP.LOG:\         :lp=WP:\         :ps=non_PS:\         :rm=WP:\         :rp=lp:\
         :pa:\k&         :sd=/SYS$SPECIFIC/UCX_LPD/WP:\         :cr:  A where WP is the name of the printer in DNS.  The key here was the-7 "cr" paramter, else you get a "staircase" effect on the0
 printouts.   Telnet printing did not work.       m                                                                                                               m                     Bill Sherwood                                                                             m                     <adkpb@small-town-am                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                           ym                     erica.com>                          cc:                                                   m                                                 Subject:     Xerox DocumentCentre 332/340ST on VMS print      m                     06/12/2001 06:05 PM         queue                                                        lm                                                                                                              mm                                                                                                              ,      ? We've had our Xerox Document Centre 332/340ST working on our NT  network just fineA for a few months.  Now I am trying to create a print queue on our 	 Vax 4105at= to print to the Xerox and it keeps stalling.  We have several- printers@ (HP5Si and various HP's) printing via TCP/IP that work fine from our NT@ systems and our Vax system.  I know I'm probably using the wrong port or8@ missing something obvious, but I'm just not catching what it is.
 I'm trying= to use port 515 with a standard VMS print queue (init /queue)t with; "/processor=ucx$telnetsym" and /on="10.1.20.24:515".    I'de r-e-a-l-l-yn? appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully pulled this\ one off.   Thanks in advance!   -- Bill Sherwood, MCSE+I/            F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyB# all copies of the original message.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:43:11 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <kt8eito5mj0ru356aobtkh6qvka61f6d76@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:18:12 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:i    = >    My point exactly.  Fred Singer accurately pointed out inr< >the article at http://www.junkscience.com/news/singer14.htm= >there are four groups interested in solving alleged man-madea >global warming: >e@ >    1.  Upper-middle class overanxious, who are truly concerned< >         and have no hidden agenda, but are naive regarding >         global warming news. >W >    2.  Opportunists. >R4 >    3.  One-worlders, e.g. United Nations and IPCC. >: >    4.  Religious left.  A Curiously the possibility that they are right does not seem to beoE allowed for. While I can understand that the available evidence can'tdC yet say for definite that global warming due to C02 is happening it E certainly does not say that it definitely is not happening either. It F was also written a couple of years ago with elections and attacking Al) Gore in mind (The Rev Gore it calls him).e  E Just exactly what category does almost every single world government, C political party and scientific body (almost all of which are agreedfD that global warming due to CO2 *may* be a reality) fall into? DuringF election campaigns issues get distorted and parties often take extremeE opposing positions and I think some of that definitely came into play.F with this issue. Surely you must have noticed that despite pulling outF of the treaty even the current Bush administration is taking the issueB seriously. Knockabout arguments about Ozone Man Rev. Gore are fineB during elections but I certainly don't believe that George Bush is( stupid and neither is the Oil industry.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:36:50 +0200A7 From: "Martin.Knoblauch" <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <3B273432.FDA72946@TeraPort.de>f   Robert Deininger wrote:a >  > G > One of the intangibles that surely must be considered in "standard ofdE > living" is FREEDOM.  More is better.  (Though like all commodities, C > different folks will place a different value on a given amount ofeH > freedom.  Umm, "marginal propensitiy to be free" sounds like the rightF > econ-101 buzz-phrase.)  An excess of coercion corresponds to a lowerK > standard of living, and must be balanced against the supposed benefits ofr > that coercion. >i  >  One issue with FREEDOM is, that it requires RESPONSIBILTY andH especially SELF-RESPONSIBILITY. This is something that my relative close? remote-observations of the US show only to a very small degree.t3 Unfortunatelly, it is on the decline in europe too.F  R Martin -- -B ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309,7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111u5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759s   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2001 09:55:26 GMT# From: rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espam   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <9g7dae$tlg$1@tejo.csic.es>   [ In article <3B26778D.BD00DE39@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >JF Mezei wrote:	 >> [snip]yL >> Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transitN >> doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you couldN >> consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidents >> while driving,c >l@ >There have been some pretty spectacular mass-transit accidents,
 >remember! [snip] >dP >> And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become suchO >> that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreUN >> confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ? >oI >It's still better than only getting three or four hours a sleep each daysD >because you're spending 6 or more hours a day walking / pedalling /C >riding mass transit. Whaddaya gonna do - work, eat, sleep, repeat?. >aE >JF, mass transit - even foot power - is fine for those who can availKF >themselves of its benefits. You *MUST* understand, however, that such< >folks are the vast minority of urban and suburban dwellers. >nG >These days, working-where-you-live and living-where-you-work is by fare >the greater luxury. a >h? >People live where the affordable housing is and work where thes@ >best-paying jobs are. Rarely are these two found within walkingC >distance, nor are they frequently connected by mass transit withinm& >walking distance of either location.  > H >There are, according to the last stat.'s I saw in the The Daily Herald,H >some 4.5 million commuters in Metro Chicago. Less than 30% of them haveH >the option to use mass transit, based on ridership numbers from the CTAB >(Chicago Transit Authority), Pace (suburban bus system) and MetraB >(Metropolitan Commuter Rail Co. of Northeast Illinois), combined. >n >Home-based biz, anyone?  H  So the public-transport in Chicago is really bad, and should be heavilyA  improved to allow a reduction in the use of the car, in Chicago.J  F  Some years ago, Ciudad Real a city at about 60 miles became a suburb J  of Madrid due to the AVE (high velocity train), it only take half an hourJ  for it to go from the center of one to the center of the other, about theE  same time that take from a more near suburb in car at peak time, anduB  at 250$/month for as much rides as you like, is cheaper than gas.  N  So what you need is to create a faster, most point public-transit, that wouldJ  increase readership that would reduce the prices, so more people is going  to use it.o  L  The problem is not that the public transport can't do the job, is that the M  city is build around the idea of cars, and redo it around a public-transport   concept became expensive.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:49 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>y  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <vqheitc6pg2g0nv1aco9kicmepd5p8uqni@4ax.com>  A On 13 Jun 2001 09:55:26 GMT, rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espam wrote:     O > So what you need is to create a faster, most point public-transit, that wouldVK > increase readership that would reduce the prices, so more people is goingi > to use it.  D I would love to be able to use public transport to work. I travel 50B miles in and 50 miles out each day which takes me about 40-45 minsF door to door through fairly light motorway traffic (which would not beA the case if I tried to drive 5 miles further into Edinburgh. ThatoD would add an extra hour of sitting in traffic). To keep costs down IE switched to diesel and save around 40 ($60) a month since doing so IoA am considering switching to LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) as thisdE would cut my fuel costs in half and slash CO2 emissions but there are:? still relatively few places I can buy this - I pass one fillinge, station with LPG pumps on the daily commute.  ; The journey by bus/train takes over twice as long and costsjF considerably more than the combined running costs of the car even withF our ridiculous fuel costs. If the UK public transport network could beA improved 50% I would consider it but paying half as much again tocE travel for twice as long on overcrowded commuter trains is a step tooaD far for me. So I'm certainly not one to force anyone to give up SUVsD at gunpoint but I do think we have to do something about redesigning+ the entire transport assumptions worldwide.E   >EM > The problem is not that the public transport can't do the job, is that the -N > city is build around the idea of cars, and redo it around a public-transport > concept became expensive..   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:57:48 -0500h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B27634C.D60B3CEF@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > [snip]J > Three dollar a gallon petrol might precipitate some changes, though! ;-}  ? You *REALLY* don't want to see me get back to work, do you? :-)e   --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:54:51 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B27629B.71B41637@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:n >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:I > > Within the past ten years, my home/work commutes have ranged anywhereHJ > > from 5.4 miles (Elmhurst to Oak Brook) to 52.4 miles (Round Lake BeachJ > > to the old RRD "campus", near McCormick Place). How long would it takeE > > the average non-athelete to pedal 52.4 miles, weather permitting?  > M > This is exactly why a slow conversion to public transit is best. IOf the USsM > government refuses to take the lead to start that conversion, when the direeS > warnings do materialise, it will mean a very big change in american's lifestyles.s  D A Great Depression, two World Wars and the Korean conflict failed toG teach this nation any lasting lessons, and the few lessons learned were E lost on the children of the 60's. Perhaps it *IS* time for the Second F Coming, but I doubt that either environmental or energy supply factorsE will have a major impact before the course of world events (human and + otherwise) leads us to another threshold...   P > But if the USA were to start now and go slowly, you would find that businessesM > and public transit would gradually locate themselves to serve the citizens.j  H This is what we'd all like to believe. The probability, however, is even> less than the probability of ever seeing Affordable OpenVMS or  Affordable VMS-capable hardware.  P > Would some still need to travel very far ? Perhaps, and they would think twiceV > about accepting jobs where they would spend half their salary on fuel for transport.  H While that is an exaggeration, it is also eutopian. Had I gotten the jobH offer at Abbott Labs (44+ miles), I would not have hesitated to take it.  O > Businesses would also become more active with telecommuting, allowing them toaN > attract employees who might not have the means to easily travel to their far > away offices.n  H This may need to come about, anyway. As the artificial forces exerted onE the market cause fuel prices to continue to rise, workers will demand > more and more pay to compensate, making telecommuting the onlyH economical alternative for some businesses for employees whose positionsG are suitable to that model. Factory workers, doctors, nurses, and otheryG service employees (i.e., the bulk of the work force) will still need too commute.  D FWIW, my brother is plant superintendent for a company that suppliesG gears and other machinery parts to GM Electromotive. He has guys in his-G shop who travel here from Wisconsin and Indiana -DAILY-, as much as 100sE miles one-way! When my Dad worked at International Harvester some 20+e> years ago, he worked alongside people who travelled there fromE north-central Indiana -DAILY-. People at Advocate where I worked (OaksG Brook) less than two years ago likewise travel there from north-centralo Indiana -DAILY-.  O > All this is called urban planning. And in many places in the world, includinglO > some asian cities as well as many european cities, this has been the case for$K > a long time. And in cities such as New York, they have realised that theyl( > could not live without public transit.  B Never seen live morning TV from NY, have you? If you think traffic congestion in LA is bad, ...  B There is no amount of planning that can change the way things are,G except over a very long period of time (many tens of generations). Thisu is inescapable.D  A As a nation and as a global community, we must face the fact that4D alternatives to fossil fuels and nuclear power (in its present form)B *MUST* be sought. For motor vehicles, batteries are clearly not anG acceptable answer, though hybrid vehicles may provide a stop gap in they short term.e  G Until someone can come along with a magic wand and magically move every0G company's employees into affordable/desirable housing near the businessrE where such housing does not currently exist (a *REALLY* good trick inrC the heart of the city!), we will need to face certain realities andr learn to live with them.  H People live where they want and work where they can or where they chooseF (for those so fortunate as to have the choice). That's what America is
 all about.   -- c David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.6   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:14:20 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>P  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeH Message-ID: <y44rtkiksz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> writes:S  L > > There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction. >  > Let's see... > > > short term inaccurate model... weather prediction: 2 + 2 = 5 > 2 > long term precise model... climate prediction: -F >  123456789012345678901234567890 + 123456789012345678901234567890 = -! >  246913578024691357802469135780  >  > I don't think so.S  & Turn on your brain before typing, man.   Let's make two predictions.   H Wheather: Next year on 13 June at 3 p.m., at the place I am now, the air) temperature will be 17.3 degrees Celsius.   L Climate: Next year in June, the average temperature over the week of 13 JuneA will be 3 degrees higher than the similar average a month before.   5 Which of these is likely to hold, which not, and why?S    That is the relevant difference.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:19:14 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeH Message-ID: <y41yooikkt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:,  A > Yes, because the car is the symbol of individualism and freedomN@ > that allows us the choices to live any lifestyle we choose to.  N At the expense of the rest of the world. So we'll just decide on an oil importN ban to the US - make do with what you have. And we'll put a force field aroundG your borders to prevent exchange of athmosphere as well. Anything else?u   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:18:35 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B27682B.2EC9541D@fsi.net>0  $ rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espam wrote: > ] > In article <3B26778D.BD00DE39@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:- > >JF Mezei wrote: > >> [snip] N > >> Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transitP > >> doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you couldP > >> consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidents > >> while driving,e > >rB > >There have been some pretty spectacular mass-transit accidents, > >remember! > [snip] > >iR > >> And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become suchQ > >> that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreeP > >> confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ? > > K > >It's still better than only getting three or four hours a sleep each dayrF > >because you're spending 6 or more hours a day walking / pedalling /E > >riding mass transit. Whaddaya gonna do - work, eat, sleep, repeat?J > >0G > >JF, mass transit - even foot power - is fine for those who can availiH > >themselves of its benefits. You *MUST* understand, however, that such> > >folks are the vast minority of urban and suburban dwellers. > >fI > >These days, working-where-you-live and living-where-you-work is by far  > >the greater luxury. > >rA > >People live where the affordable housing is and work where thedB > >best-paying jobs are. Rarely are these two found within walkingE > >distance, nor are they frequently connected by mass transit withinI' > >walking distance of either location.i > > J > >There are, according to the last stat.'s I saw in the The Daily Herald,J > >some 4.5 million commuters in Metro Chicago. Less than 30% of them haveJ > >the option to use mass transit, based on ridership numbers from the CTAD > >(Chicago Transit Authority), Pace (suburban bus system) and MetraD > >(Metropolitan Commuter Rail Co. of Northeast Illinois), combined. > >  > >Home-based biz, anyone? > J >  So the public-transport in Chicago is really bad, and should be heavilyC >  improved to allow a reduction in the use of the car, in Chicago.   - Let's just say, it's not what it needs to be.   G >  Some years ago, Ciudad Real a city at about 60 miles became a suburboL >  of Madrid due to the AVE (high velocity train), it only take half an hourL >  for it to go from the center of one to the center of the other, about theG >  same time that take from a more near suburb in car at peak time, andbD >  at 250$/month for as much rides as you like, is cheaper than gas.  G Metra has a similar offer - an unlimited monthly pass. The cost dependsiH on how far you travel; however, the pricing is based on all trips endingH in the city, not between stops on the rail lines. Generally, this rangesA from circa. $100 US to just over $240 US (don't have all the fare.% schedules handy; so, that's a guess).g  P >  So what you need is to create a faster, most point public-transit, that wouldL >  increase readership that would reduce the prices, so more people is going
 >  to use it.   A The problem is, to keep a lid on costs, public transit does this:   )  1. Revenue is down and ridership is low.   2. Cut service, raise fares.-C  3. Ridership goes down due to reduced service and increased fares, /     revenue goes down due to reduced ridership.   4. Go to 1.   I call that "terminal spiral".  M >  The problem is not that the public transport can't do the job, is that theIO >  city is build around the idea of cars, and redo it around a public-transporto >  concept became expensive.  ? Not because it's expensive, although ultimately that may be the-H fundamental driving factor. The idea is that to "correct" the situation,D you would literally have to wipe the slate clean and start over, alaD Hiroshima or Nagasaki(sp?). Moving businesses, homes, neighborhoods,G industrial complexes, etc. simply cannot be done without some similarlyo! cataclysmic form of intervention.-  E I expect to shortly be visited by the "men in black", the guys in ther white coats, or both...c   -- [ David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.c   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2001 10:41:35 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)d  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change* Message-ID: <9g7u2v$ut2$1@lisa.gemair.com>  H In article <y44rtkiksz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,I Jan Vorbrueggen  <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: . >Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> writes: >tM >> > There is a difference between weather prediction and climate prediction.h >> a >> Let's see...d >> g? >> short term inaccurate model... weather prediction: 2 + 2 = 5e >> .3 >> long term precise model... climate prediction: -oG >>  123456789012345678901234567890 + 123456789012345678901234567890 = -d" >>  246913578024691357802469135780 >>   >> I don't think so. >u' >Turn on your brain before typing, man.w >e  6 And you should perhaps consider what your assumptions.   >Let's make two predictions. >eI >Wheather: Next year on 13 June at 3 p.m., at the place I am now, the airl* >temperature will be 17.3 degrees Celsius. >,M >Climate: Next year in June, the average temperature over the week of 13 JunefB >will be 3 degrees higher than the similar average a month before. > 6 >Which of these is likely to hold, which not, and why? >t  I The simplistic prediction you give is more likely to hold.  Why?  BecausedH we have a really good model for temperature variance month to month over a lot of years.)  H The sun will rise tomorrow, too, and that's a highly reliable predictionG because it's based on a simple observation of celestial mechanics, justs as month to month variance is.  G Climate models involving factors like greenhouse warming, solar cycles,SK radiative heating/cooling, air/surface temperatures, are more like weather r$ models and are similarly unreliable.  J Note that the National Academy of Sciences report that various people seemK to be using as support that we should ratify Kyoto said explicitly that theaM IPCC models have not been at all accurate.  If this is such a simple businesst' why are there not more accurate models?e  ! >That is the relevant difference.  >t >	Jan    -Jordan Hendersont jordan@greenapple.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:51:53 -0400p2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306011051530001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3B27629B.71B41637@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"0 <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:    F > > Would some still need to travel very far ? Perhaps, and they would think twiceuI > > about accepting jobs where they would spend half their salary on fuelw for transport. > 5 > While that is an exaggeration, it is also eutopian.n4                                             ^^^^^^^^- You misspelt that on purpose, didn't you? ;-)u   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comp   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:00:56 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1306011100570001@user-2ive7sq.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y41yooikkt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  9 > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:u > C > > Yes, because the car is the symbol of individualism and freedomaB > > that allows us the choices to live any lifestyle we choose to. > P > At the expense of the rest of the world. So we'll just decide on an oil importP > ban to the US - make do with what you have. And we'll put a force field aroundI > your borders to prevent exchange of athmosphere as well. Anything else?m  H Go ahead.  Since you don't like CO2, I guess you should make us all stopG breathing as well.  The last time you tried to put a force field around < our borders, we sank a lot of them, and went through anyway.  F Does Germany export a lot of oil?  How effective will your embargo be?  B Of course, your anti-petroleum scheme would impoverish most of theH population of the arab world and other oil exporters.  But it would make  you feel better, so that's fine.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:46:49 +0100:% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <qv1fit8lu5dec5o0ba1k4tao8kjps7o8ta@4ax.com>  = On 13 Jun 2001 10:41:35 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordana Henderson) wrote:t  2 I really should just give up on this thread but...  K >Note that the National Academy of Sciences report that various people seemeL >to be using as support that we should ratify Kyoto said explicitly that theN >IPCC models have not been at all accurate.  If this is such a simple business( >why are there not more accurate models?  B Because it is *not* a simple business. The models are not accurateD because we don't fully understand the processes. Balance of reasonedD opinion appears to be that there is at the very least cause for someC concern and at the very worst cause for panic. US election politicsmC played by both sides (Instant Doom and Gloom from Gore and Gore themF Tree-hugging Ozone Man from Bush) seem to have polarized the debate inD the US and that's not really helpful it seems to me. The two main UKF political parties used to take diametrically opposed positions as well9 but now are in general agreement. Which makes a change...d   Now where did I put that Chad?     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:09:26 -0400m5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>o  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <ro8nO6Xnpd+loONjPRluhNQ1YibX@4ax.com>  
 <big snip>  B >    I've been trying to find a quote from one of the IPCC members> >(and have not found it yet) that stated global climate change> >was an inexact science and was not the only consideration forC >implementing the treaty, the implication being that it would allowr; >developing countries to economically compete in the global ( >economy.  I'll continue to hunt for it. >g  : I found the quotes I was looking for.  Read the article atR http://www.techcentralstation.com/NewsDesk.asp?FormMode=MainTerminalArticles&ID=68- and the quotes from Jacques Chirac and Margoto! Wallstrom are about halfway down.l  
 <big snip>   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2001 16:25:32 GMT# From: rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espam   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <9g845s$tr2$1@tejo.csic.es>d  [ In article <3B27682B.2EC9541D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:u% >rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espam wrote:w >> t^ >> In article <3B26778D.BD00DE39@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> >JF Mezei wrote:  >> >> [snip]O >> >> Just because you don't have a car anymore and rely on good public transituQ >> >> doesn't mean that your standard of living has gone down. In fact, you couldrQ >> >> consider it has gone up because you no longer have to worry about accidentsf >> >> while driving, >> >C >> >There have been some pretty spectacular mass-transit accidents,u
 >> >remember!t	 >> [snip]t >> >S >> >> And do you consider it higher standard of living when people have become suchyR >> >> that they resent being in public places with other humans and feel much moreQ >> >> confortable being alone in their car, isolated from the rest of the world ?  >> >L >> >It's still better than only getting three or four hours a sleep each dayG >> >because you're spending 6 or more hours a day walking / pedalling /hF >> >riding mass transit. Whaddaya gonna do - work, eat, sleep, repeat? >> >H >> >JF, mass transit - even foot power - is fine for those who can availI >> >themselves of its benefits. You *MUST* understand, however, that suchi? >> >folks are the vast minority of urban and suburban dwellers.. >> >J >> >These days, working-where-you-live and living-where-you-work is by far >> >the greater luxury.e >> >B >> >People live where the affordable housing is and work where theC >> >best-paying jobs are. Rarely are these two found within walkingnF >> >distance, nor are they frequently connected by mass transit within( >> >walking distance of either location. >> >K >> >There are, according to the last stat.'s I saw in the The Daily Herald,fK >> >some 4.5 million commuters in Metro Chicago. Less than 30% of them have K >> >the option to use mass transit, based on ridership numbers from the CTAeE >> >(Chicago Transit Authority), Pace (suburban bus system) and MetraeE >> >(Metropolitan Commuter Rail Co. of Northeast Illinois), combined.4 >> > >> >Home-based biz, anyone?n >> rK >>  So the public-transport in Chicago is really bad, and should be heavily D >>  improved to allow a reduction in the use of the car, in Chicago. > . >Let's just say, it's not what it needs to be. >aH >>  Some years ago, Ciudad Real a city at about 60 miles became a suburbM >>  of Madrid due to the AVE (high velocity train), it only take half an houreM >>  for it to go from the center of one to the center of the other, about theiH >>  same time that take from a more near suburb in car at peak time, andE >>  at 250$/month for as much rides as you like, is cheaper than gas.r >oH >Metra has a similar offer - an unlimited monthly pass. The cost dependsI >on how far you travel; however, the pricing is based on all trips endingnI >in the city, not between stops on the rail lines. Generally, this ranges.B >from circa. $100 US to just over $240 US (don't have all the fare& >schedules handy; so, that's a guess).  & My one is a guess too, so don't worry.    >eQ >>  So what you need is to create a faster, most point public-transit, that wouldtM >>  increase readership that would reduce the prices, so more people is goingJ >>  to use it. >2B >The problem is, to keep a lid on costs, public transit does this: >.* > 1. Revenue is down and ridership is low. > 2. Cut service, raise fares.D > 3. Ridership goes down due to reduced service and increased fares,0 >    revenue goes down due to reduced ridership.
 > 4. Go to 1.d >i >I call that "terminal spiral".   C So the point is not:  "can't be done", is that is not usually done.2   >=N >>  The problem is not that the public transport can't do the job, is that theP >>  city is build around the idea of cars, and redo it around a public-transport >>  concept became expensive.  >u@ >Not because it's expensive, although ultimately that may be theI >fundamental driving factor. The idea is that to "correct" the situation,aE >you would literally have to wipe the slate clean and start over, ala E >Hiroshima or Nagasaki(sp?). Moving businesses, homes, neighborhoods,eH >industrial complexes, etc. simply cannot be done without some similarly" >cataclysmic form of intervention. >hF >I expect to shortly be visited by the "men in black", the guys in the >white coats, or both... >4  J You  need that to get a perfect situation, but no to get a great gain over-  the actual situation in a city like Chicago.D  H just triple the elevated trains lines so it really cover the whole city K (not the suburn area) and not only the loop, and a monthly pass that is nothI  as expensive as taking 4 trips every day like it was at December and youeJ  would get a huge improvement, and at the end you could even finish with a better bussines.  H Force to change all the train crossing from at level to underway or withF  bridges, you would end with faster trains, so you can put more trainsO in the same line, and less accidents, pay for the railways in the same way that B you pay for roads, at the end both are used for the public. So theL  train-trainfare (that is not done even in europe, the truck companies have K too much power, that kind of system would make train transport cheaper than0K  truck) could be reduced at half at least. There is a lot to do to improve eI public transport in Chicago, that don't need to redo the city, only moneydM at least initial money, althougth could end producing more money that it costsL  but only in the long run. And usually not for the people that win the money  now.v  o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:15:41 -0400  From: wwebb1@email.usps.govi  Subject: RE: [OT] Climate changeK Message-ID: <D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB75001925C14@rlghncst625.usps.gov>a   Did they mention Mao suits?r   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ) > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:46 PMtF > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET" > Subject: RE: [OT] Climate change >  >  > <big snip> > D > >    I've been trying to find a quote from one of the IPCC members@ > >(and have not found it yet) that stated global climate change@ > >was an inexact science and was not the only consideration forE > >implementing the treaty, the implication being that it would allowt= > >developing countries to economically compete in the globale* > >economy.  I'll continue to hunt for it. > >u > < > I found the quotes I was looking for.  Read the article at@ > http://www.techcentralstation.com/NewsDesk.asp?FormMode=MainTe > rminalArticles&ID=2 > 68 and the quotes from Jacques Chirac and Margot# > Wallstrom are about halfway down.s >  > <big snip> >  > David R. Beatty  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:00:44 +0100D% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <pt6eitkkjhpn8t4vmdeksehlsuqlg4jhrh@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:06:49 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:p   >n >m@ >Sea levels are not rising and have not done so for at least 150B >years.  See http://www.john-daly.com/ (not the golfer) and scroll@ >about 10-20% down the page for the caption "Is This the Picture, >That Takes the Heat Out of Global Warming".  A Followed that link then followed the link to the BBC report whichlB quotes John Daly as taking this as evidence that sea level has not risen. It then goes on to say:   --- D John Daly's interpretation has been dismissed by Dr David Pugh, from> the Southampton Oceanography Centre, UK. Dr Pugh has gone overF Lempriere's original work which had been buried in the Royal Society'sC archives. The Southampton scientist is now assisting CSIRO in theirt current research programme.   D "John Daly has taken the mark, which is a nice clear bench mark, andF said 'that is the mean level of the sea at that time', and it wasn't," says Dr Pugh.   B "From all the evidence we know it was the high water level at thatD time - it's like the difference between mid-tide and high-tide. He's wrong."  ---n  F Yet somehow you interpret this as a clear "Sea levels are not rising",C I would suggest that you re ignoring evidence that doesn't fit youro view..     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:45:19 +010020 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <3B27443F.7AB52BBC@uk.sun.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > , > In article <3B1B784F.2F7901E9@uk.sun.com>,5 >  andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:I > |>! > |> and Power cuts in Californias > : > well, there went yoiur credibility right out the window. >     4 Really, so they arn't a good example of what happens. if you don't have a coeherant energy policy !!   I stand corrected.    H > There is no shortage of power in California.  There is only a shortageH > in the power the grid is willing to deliver without being paid for it.H > California's power problem is totally economic. Or do you believe thatJ > electric power somehow is restriced by arbitrary legislative boundries??I > After all, none of the states that border California are having rollingaM > blackouts.  And the Las Vegas Strip, probably one of the biggest consummersaM > of electricity in the world, is as bright as ever and a mere 270 miles fromh > darkened Los Angeles.d >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -- J Andrew Harrison- Enterprise IT Architecte   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:14:25 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>z2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?2 Message-ID: <flgnOx=K2yHjoNclSGj+cWSWGMts@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:00:44 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:  1 >On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:06:49 -0400, David Beatty * ><David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote: >> >> >>A >>Sea levels are not rising and have not done so for at least 150 C >>years.  See http://www.john-daly.com/ (not the golfer) and scroll2A >>about 10-20% down the page for the caption "Is This the Picture3- >>That Takes the Heat Out of Global Warming".k >.B >Followed that link then followed the link to the BBC report whichC >quotes John Daly as taking this as evidence that sea level has notn >risen. It then goes on to say:3 >n >---E >John Daly's interpretation has been dismissed by Dr David Pugh, frome? >the Southampton Oceanography Centre, UK. Dr Pugh has gone overuG >Lempriere's original work which had been buried in the Royal Society'saD >archives. The Southampton scientist is now assisting CSIRO in their >current research programme. t >pE >"John Daly has taken the mark, which is a nice clear bench mark, andeG >said 'that is the mean level of the sea at that time', and it wasn't,"a >says Dr Pugh. i >rC >"From all the evidence we know it was the high water level at thattE >time - it's like the difference between mid-tide and high-tide. He'sh	 >wrong." a >--- >.G >Yet somehow you interpret this as a clear "Sea levels are not rising",sD >I would suggest that you re ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your >view..r  @ Go back to John Daly's site to http://www.john-daly/isledead and> scroll most of the way down to read his response to Dr. Hunter: from CSIRO, then see if I'm ignoring conflicting evidence.   David R. Beattye   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:43:08 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <l3qeit8o0a9itdl3nah6vitvn8qame3tcg@4ax.com>  0 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:14:25 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:n     > A >Go back to John Daly's site to http://www.john-daly/isledead and1? >scroll most of the way down to read his response to Dr. HunterB; >from CSIRO, then see if I'm ignoring conflicting evidence.n  < From a brief glance yes you are. You are grabbing at bits ofD conflicting evidence (as is John Daly but he admits this) that proveB nothing on their own. You are ignoring all the other evidence thatD points the other way because you said point blank that this mark wasF proof that sea level hasn't risen. All I see is several geologists andB climate scientists arguing about interpretation in the web links I? have followed. Most mainstream opinion differs from John Daly's B interpretation and even John Daly isn't claiming that his evidence8 *proves* anything. He is arguing it needs a closer look.  C I don't really see how you can claim that one mark on a rock made afC long time ago, unless you were there at the time and can personallynD vouch for its meaning, proves absolutely anything. I'm certainly not1 claiming it does. As John Daly says at one point:   ? Q:But what troubles me is the idea that the sea level must have , dropped 20 cm, maybe 30 cm in just 50 years.  B A:That was my reaction too when I saw it. I could scarcely believeF what I was seeing, and I knew then it would pose a bigger problem than@ if the mark had been conveniently placed nearer present mean seaC level. It is therefore tempting to adopt the Hamon interpretation - D that the benchmark really was meant to mark somewhere closer to highD tide, not mean tide. But to accept that means calling Ross a liar, a very unsatisfactory conclusion.   A I can't explain why there might have been a fall or where all thefC water went to (see my reply to Mike MacCracken on this). I can only C report what the historical evidence says, troublesome though it mayo be.   B Q:IF there indeed has been a sea level drop in the last 200 years,	 then why?i  D A:You are right of course. 30 cms is a big fall in only 50 years andD would need some explaining. Uplift can only explain a small fractionE of that, given that there's been no noticeable uplift since that 1890bA photo of the isle. You may well be right about Ross and Lempriere@C catching the tide during an atypically `high' tidal phase, but thatgE would account again only for a fraction of the total deficit, not alln of it. t  F Anyway I've better things to do than wade through all of this stuff asC I've read enough to see that even John Daly is only saying majorityu' opinion might be wrong. Not *is* wrong.  >y >David R. Beatty   -- Alan   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.326 ************************