1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 21 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 342       Contents:P Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive 5 Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup  Re: CDE on Multiheaded Display Re: CDE on Multiheaded Display Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS" RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS" RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS
 cluster alias  Re: cluster alias & Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation> Consolidation of small VMS vendors (was: OpenVMS Applications)B Re: Consolidation of small VMS vendors (was: OpenVMS Applications)  Re: Databases available for VMS?, Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 20010 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001 Re: FreeVMS  RE: FreeVMS  RE: FreeVMS 4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.4 Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.! Re: Intrusion & Password Checking  Re: Listserver Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters0 Re: Need TCL 8.2 or above port for Alpha OpenVMS0 Re: Need TCL 8.2 or above port for Alpha OpenVMS  Re: RAID on the AXP 150 (Jensen)P RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy K Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS K Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS J Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS P Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS P RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS 9 Re: SMTP notification messages - how do I turn them off ? 9 Re: SMTP notification messages - how do I turn them off ? ' Status of Decwrite .. public domain ??? + Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ??? + Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ??? 0 Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.0 Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.0 Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.0 Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.0 Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.+ Re: SYS$PIPEDRIVER, MPA0:, I/O Users Manual  Re: Threads and mailboxes # Re: Training sites for vms training # Trouble with second NIC in PWS500AU ' Re: Trouble with second NIC in PWS500AU  Re: X25 and FTAM problem$ Re: XML Import / Export for OpenVMS? Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:35:31 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive  & Message-ID: <3B321443.19C4F6F@fsi.net>   "islandco.com" wrote:  >  > In stock NOW > L > Itanium Clone - code named Alpha - from the Clever PC people at Compaq !!!  ! Nothing like confusion, is there?   A What's that phrase I've seen here - "rectal/cranial inversion" or  something like that?  E > 64Bits and only $1325 US - whats more - it will run WIndows NT !!!!   0 See - they SAID we'd see the return of Alpha/NT!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:02:47 GMT B From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>> Subject: Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup6 Message-ID: <HnlY6.3719$yp1.125194@www.newsranger.com>  K On 20 Jun 2001 12:33:22 -0700, in article <WqAZXZ7Bxsyi@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>,  Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > 7 >In article <yt5Y6.2839$yp1.85446@www.newsranger.com>,  I >    Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:  >>  O >> Actually, I am not familiar with the term "LARS", or if I once was, it's now  >> forgotten information.  >>  J >   I think it stood for "Labour Activity Reporting System". Originally itK >was a multipart form the service guys had to complete after each call with O >how many minutes were spent travelling, waiting for system, doing diagnostics, I >eating lunch, arguing with customer, etc. I think it may have later been J >turned into an automated service where they'd call a telephone number and >punch a lot of buttons. >   * _Now_ I remember. Thanks for the reminder.  K >> If you are referring to the forms in the Field Service site maintainence N >> manual, I haven't had a site maintainence manual for the last 2 generations >> of my VMS machines. >>  > >    Nope - I haven't seen a site maintenance manual in years. >   G I wonder what was the most unusual entry that was ever written in one ?   N >> [For the benefit of newcomers to DEC/CPQ: DEC, as part of your maintainenceM >> contract, used to supply a thick A4 size ring binder containing reports on N >> everything that happened at your site. The reports were filled out at every( >> visit (including routine PM visits).  > ' >   Do they still do routine PM visits?  >   J Not on the small to medium sized Alpha's. My last PM visit was back in the 1995/1996 timeframe.   Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP K Worrying idea #101: What if Microsoft goes into the Ada compiler business ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:25:55 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> ' Subject: Re: CDE on Multiheaded Display / Message-ID: <3B3202ED.AB2D0B72@cableinet.co.uk>    Mark Lawrence wrote: >  > Hi > L > Not sure if I'm on the right VMS newsgroup but I had to pick one - being aA > relative newbie to VMS (coming from a UNIX/Windows background).  > H > I've looked at a all the VMS FAQ's I can find about this but none have/ > given me an answer, some hints but that's it.  > J > I have a triple-headed VMS (Version 7.2) system at  work with CDE as theM > windows manager. By default it comes up on screen 0, is there a way to make I > it come up on screen 1 (the centre screen in my configuration) instead?   F Mark, a low tech solution that you've probably discounted already, butC did you consider moving the monitors physically so the one with the  display ; is where you want it? Or have I misunderstood your problem?   ' sorry, I never used a multi-headed box.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:14:45 GMT + From: "Mark Lawrence" <io@blueyonder.co.uk> ' Subject: Re: CDE on Multiheaded Display 9 Message-ID: <9YpY6.69333$J25.7967544@news1.cableinet.net>    Hi,   J Thanks for all the replys. As a couple of you suggested I've already movedG the cables so the CDE comes up on the middle display. Can get confusing E sometimes, knowing which way to move the mouse to go to the screen on  the left :-)  3 I'll keep looking - there has to be a way - I hope!    Cheers Mark  @ "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message) news:3B3202ED.AB2D0B72@cableinet.co.uk...  >  >  > Mark Lawrence wrote: > >  > > Hi > > L > > Not sure if I'm on the right VMS newsgroup but I had to pick one - being a C > > relative newbie to VMS (coming from a UNIX/Windows background).  > > J > > I've looked at a all the VMS FAQ's I can find about this but none have1 > > given me an answer, some hints but that's it.  > > L > > I have a triple-headed VMS (Version 7.2) system at  work with CDE as theJ > > windows manager. By default it comes up on screen 0, is there a way to makeK > > it come up on screen 1 (the centre screen in my configuration) instead?  > H > Mark, a low tech solution that you've probably discounted already, butE > did you consider moving the monitors physically so the one with the 	 > display = > is where you want it? Or have I misunderstood your problem?  > ) > sorry, I never used a multi-headed box.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:04:53 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br ' Subject: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS L Message-ID: <OF81C6F6E7.567473FF-ON03256A72.0058195B@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  
 Serious work:   : Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN)H to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controller (ex. KZPBA-CB)2 is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ?   Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:45:28 -0400 > From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>+ Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS M Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D0160214A@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>   < Perhaps SCSI_INFO.EXE in the SYS$ETC directory might reveal.   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadway  Albany, NY  12204  USA  518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com   * "I post personal opinion only, and all the* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my* views in no way represent my employer(s)."   > -----Original Message-----+ > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br . > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]( > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 12:05 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ) > Subject: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS  >  >  > Serious work:  > < > Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN)< > to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controller  > (ex. KZPBA-CB)4 > is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ? > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:32:43 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br + Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS L Message-ID: <OF6420E85D.848DF034-ON03256A72.00604A1B@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   I tried:   $ mcr []SCSI_INFO PKB0:  x.lis   but    $ type x.lis   $! $! SCSI_INFO V1A1  $!K $!      Copyright (c) 1995 by DIGITAL Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Mass. L $!      All Rights Reserved. Unpublished rights reserved under the copyright" $!      laws of the United States. $!& $! Invoked on Thu Jun 21 14:26:39 2001 $! $! Issuing INQUIRY QIOW  $!+ $!   QIO status of 244 causing program exit  $! $         F "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com> em 21/06/2001 13:45:28      S       "'fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br'" <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       + Assunto: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS     < Perhaps SCSI_INFO.EXE in the SYS$ETC directory might reveal.   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadway  Albany, NY  12204  USA  518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com   * "I post personal opinion only, and all the* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my* views in no way represent my employer(s)."   > -----Original Message-----+ > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br . > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]( > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 12:05 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ) > Subject: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS  >  >  > Serious work:  > < > Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN); > to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controller  > (ex. KZPBA-CB)4 > is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ? > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:12:22 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: cluster alias9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOENFCMAA.tom@kednos.com>   L Adding a 7.3 node to an existing cluster.  How do I find out the name of theI existing cluster alias, if any.  I could not find a definition of cluster G alias in the documentation.  Can somebody explain the following syntax?   < * Full name of Cluster Alias             : ACME:.WABBIT.HELP   TIA    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:28:34 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: cluster aliasL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011128340001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOENFCMAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:   N > Adding a 7.3 node to an existing cluster.  How do I find out the name of theK > existing cluster alias, if any.  I could not find a definition of cluster  > alias in the documentation.   I Cluster alias should be explained in the VMS Clustering Manual.  It's not D really a DECnet thing, but network services can be set up to use the7 cluster alias for incoming and/or outgoing connections.   , > Can somebody explain the following syntax? > > > * Full name of Cluster Alias             : ACME:.WABBIT.HELP  H This is a DECnet-plus Full Name.  ACME is the namespace.  Since it's notH LOCAL or DOMAIN, it means a DECdns distributed naming system is in use. G (That's not typical for a small-to-medium network.)  WABBIT is a DECdns H directory.  HELP is the node (or cluster alias) name.  If this full name= had a DECnet phase IV style alias, it would probably be HELP.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:59:07 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation < Message-ID: <fRoY6.6304$P46.4477421@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  0 "Bert Medley" <medleyb@ev1.net> wrote in message4 news:Xns90C65A47775DEmedleybev1net@207.218.245.68...9 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in 3 > <K0QX6.5060$P46.3178015@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>:u >2 > > 3 > >"Bert Medley" <medleyb@ev1.net> wrote in messagea7 > >news:Xns90C59A97BDB96medleybev1net@207.218.245.68...e > >> [posted and mailed] > >>< > >> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in6 > >> <JaBX6.1461$wU6.1981124@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>: > >> > >>> www.acersoft.com > >> > >> Terry,I > >>H > >> Your back issues section at this site is woefully out of date (1999* > >> and earlier only?)  Please elucidate! > >rK > >My paid subscribers (who have all the back issues, since they are payingoH > >for a service) will have the details on the transformation within the > >next couple of days.  > >r > >o > >  >d" > OK....that explains it.  Thanks!  5 And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting!h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:05:44 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformatione' Message-ID: <3B321B58.8FA81AAF@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:h > [snip]7 > And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting!a  E If the note about the "Alpha" PC in another thread is any indication,s heaven help us!U   -- a David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.u   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:01:54 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)sG Subject: Consolidation of small VMS vendors (was: OpenVMS Applications)b3 Message-ID: <EajuQrY+AS5E@eisner.encompasserve.org>   x In article <OF9A08C366.FA74A66D-ON03256A71.003E6DDB@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:M > The great problem with the 5000 are the "non-known" companies which developo > on or two ' > products - specialist - for OpenVMS !: > G > I believe these small companies should merge to become more known and:
 > consolidates! > the technologies and customers.f  @ Your proposed form of business organization is already underway,A with a well-financed company actively acquiring VMS applications.   B Some in this newsgroup have opposed your chosen approach, however.  = By the way, the name of the company is "Computer Associates".a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:24:34 -0300h) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brrK Subject: Re: Consolidation of small VMS vendors (was: OpenVMS Applications)dL Message-ID: <OF5146BED2.7C7A16D2-ON03256A72.00441DA6@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  7 CA in Brazil means "Comprar e Acabar"  - Buy and Finishb   Fabio C.        J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) em 21/06/2001 10:01:54  E Favor responder a Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms      G Assunto: Consolidation of small VMS vendors (was: OpenVMS Applications)n    
 In articleA <OF9A08C366.FA74A66D-ON03256A71.003E6DDB@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,u+ fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:uE > The great problem with the 5000 are the "non-known" companies which  develope > on or twoe' > products - specialist - for OpenVMS !e >fG > I believe these small companies should merge to become more known and.
 > consolidatee! > the technologies and customers.   @ Your proposed form of business organization is already underway,A with a well-financed company actively acquiring VMS applications.   B Some in this newsgroup have opposed your chosen approach, however.  = By the way, the name of the company is "Computer Associates".e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:45:47 +0100a. From: Peter Jackson <peter.jackson@oracle.com>) Subject: Re: Databases available for VMS?e* Message-ID: <3B31EC7B.E270B6A4@oracle.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------503326A4FED05E4C68FB0790* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bita      
 "P.Lj" wrote:e   > Hi,o >v > See  http://www.mimer.com/ >M
 > >>>^P.Lj >s > John Parker wrote: >tB > > We are currently using the old DEC RDB and DBMS software on anB > > Alphaserver 4100 running OpenVMS version 7.1-1H2.  While I wasE > > able to get DEC DBMS and RDB installed on this particular version B > > of VMS, I have been unable to successfully install them on 7.1J > > or 7.2-1.  These attempts to install get the "system version mismatch"D > > and "must relink" error messages.  (By the way, does anyone knowJ > > how I can get past this?  I am under the assumption that once softwareK > > is installed on 7.x, the software should still work with any subsequentcJ > > upgrades to a higher 7.x version, with some exceptions for other third > > party software packages.)   D To get past SYSVERDIF messages you need to register the applicationsD with VMS using sys$update:register_privileged_image. This is becauseD the images are linked on older versions on VMS. The new version 7.1,D which is soon to be released, requires a minimum of VMS 7.2 and will> not have this problem. (DEC DBMS and DEC Rdb are the names forB versions prior to 7.0, the current names are Oracle Rdb and Oracle CODASYL DBMS.)  
 Peter Jacksonv Rdb Supporta	 Oracle UK!     >h > >iG > > I know that these two software packages are no longer supported andrF > > that we should find other alternatives.  The problem is that theseI > > two packages are not utilized very extensively.  The computer scienceeG > > department uses them for maybe two classes, tops, a semester (maybe/K > > a total of 20-25 students).  This makes it a little hard to justify any:Q > > expenditures that may come with, say, purchasing RDB and DBMS through Oracle.  > >iI > > Are there any alternative database software packages that may be more H > > affordable than Oracle?  We have not yet priced the software throughH > > Oracle but expect that it will not be priced in our range for such aH > > small group of users.  We are a state-run educational institution so > > money is a factor. > >c; > > I would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions.  > >R > > Thank you, > >g > > John > > Systems Programmer& > > Stephen F. Austin State University > > Nacogdoches, Texas  & --------------503326A4FED05E4C68FB0790- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;5  name="peter.jackson.vcf"  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit@+ Content-Description: Card for Peter Jackson   Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="peter.jackson.vcf"c   begin:vcard  n:Jackson;Peterf tel;fax:0118 9249260 tel;work:0118 9249165a x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Oracle Corporation UK Ltd.
 adr:;;;;;; version:2.1c' email;internet:peter.jackson@oracle.comt fn:Peter Jackson	 end:vcarde  ( --------------503326A4FED05E4C68FB0790--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:23:16 +0100l" From: Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com>5 Subject: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001n@ Message-ID: <OFC5063737.768C40B3-ON80256A72.00387A1C@eu.csc.com>   All,  1 Up and online are just 4 pictures from the Londonv+ Update sessions, I was nowhere near as busyh+ with my camera as someone was at the Dallasg event.  4 Thumbnails, click the "<size> JPG" for the full size pic.  & http://www.python.demon.co.uk/lup.html   Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:45:44 -0300n) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brc9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001 L Message-ID: <OF33AFE632.F5D39A7F-ON03256A72.00407862@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  1 Who are the Sirs ? I dont know nobody there ! :-)o5 I believe we should send someone our photos to creates3 the OpenVMS Memorial Home Page when it will finally1 become "RIP ".   Fabio             3 Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> em 21/06/2001 07:23:16F  . Favor responder a Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-      5 Assunto: Few pictures from the London Update May 20015     All,  1 Up and online are just 4 pictures from the Londonu+ Update sessions, I was nowhere near as busyg+ with my camera as someone was at the Dallas  event.  4 Thumbnails, click the "<size> JPG" for the full size pic.  & http://www.python.demon.co.uk/lup.html   Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer SciencesX nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:09:48 +0100e" From: Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com>9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001.@ Message-ID: <OF52A0F35B.130080E8-ON80256A72.0041C5F4@eu.csc.com>  . I'll give you the names of those on pic 3, the' rest can be assured of their anonymity!e   L to R  / Doug Gordon, Mr. Lock Manager. (and INFOSERVER)  Verell Boaen, Mr. Interconnect% Ian Percival, Mr. XFC (and NUMA/exec)h John AtoZ, Mr. Shadow.   There were many more there.s  
 Regards, Nic.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:54 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)u9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001c0 Message-ID: <009FDDBC.137B1FD3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <OF52A0F35B.130080E8-ON80256A72.0041C5F4@eu.csc.com>, Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> writes:p >o/ >I'll give you the names of those on pic 3, the ( >rest can be assured of their anonymity! >e >L to Rn > 0 >Doug Gordon, Mr. Lock Manager. (and INFOSERVER) >Verell Boaen, Mr. Interconnect)& >Ian Percival, Mr. XFC (and NUMA/exec) >John AtoZ, Mr. Shadow.s >a >There were many more there. >l >Regards, Nic. >  >t  E BTW, the fellow in the white shirt on the left of picture #2 is Hoff.L   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMI            oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:29:03 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001t0 Message-ID: <009FDDBD.133EEB18@SendSpamHere.ORG>  x In article <OF33AFE632.F5D39A7F-ON03256A72.00407862@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:2 >Who are the Sirs ? I dont know nobody there ! :-)6 >I believe we should send someone our photos to create4 >the OpenVMS Memorial Home Page when it will finally >become "RIP ".e  I I'd be willing to host a who's who picture site for comp.os.vms.  I thinkuI it would be great for all to see what the personalities who frequent this I newsgroup actually look like.  I've met quite good many of you but I havecI photos of only a few.  I also finally met Shane at the last CETS and he's65 the splitting image of his ASCII art in his .sig.  :)   H If you're interested, send me a good photo and I'll put together a page.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMy            0O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:27:24 +0000e  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001C/ Message-ID: <00256A72.004F6D45.00@quegw01.btyp>p  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza     Scruffy git!   ;^D-   Steve Sr        1 system@SendSpamHere.ORG on 06/21/2001 01:21:54 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)l; From:      system@SendSpamHere.ORG, 21 June 2001, 1:21 p.m.n  0 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001        L In article <OF52A0F35B.130080E8-ON80256A72.0041C5F4@eu.csc.com>, Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> writes: >i/ >I'll give you the names of those on pic 3, the ( >rest can be assured of their anonymity! >V >L to Ri >o0 >Doug Gordon, Mr. Lock Manager. (and INFOSERVER) >Verell Boaen, Mr. Interconnectt& >Ian Percival, Mr. XFC (and NUMA/exec) >John AtoZ, Mr. Shadow.o >  >There were many more there. >I >Regards, Nic. >. >P  E BTW, the fellow in the white shirt on the left of picture #2 is Hoff.d   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM0  O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:58:31 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001 0 Message-ID: <009FDDC1.30A51339@SendSpamHere.ORG>  R In article <00256A72.004F6D45.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza: >3 >0
 >Scruffy git!i  E Certainly not as handsome and photogenic as yours truly, but scruffy?  Isn't that a bit harsh?  ;)G   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMq            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:06:49 -0300X) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001rL Message-ID: <OFAFB41952.9393B0D8-ON03256A72.004D61A8@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  > What I hate more in the IT area is the predominance of males !B I work with 30 males in a datacenter .... one woman: secretary and wife of one of the males !  # I would like a job at Ford Models !e     Regards-   FC        E system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) em 21/06/2001i 10:58:31  I Favor responder a system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)V             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComS      9 Assunto: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001e    J In article <00256A72.004F6D45.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:eG >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street( Plazat >0 >/
 >Scruffy git!a  E Certainly not as handsome and photogenic as yours truly, but scruffy?  Isn't that a bit harsh?  ;)o   --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  I city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named afterd them.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:37:25 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001lL Message-ID: <OF136AF19D.3480A82C-ON03256A72.004AAA7F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ; I must take a new "updated" photo of mine (passport is ok?)rA or I will look like that guy in the homepage with white shirt andt6 stressed face which didnt brush  his hairs ! ! ! :-)))   Regardsl   FC        E system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) em 21/06/2001i 10:29:03  I Favor responder a system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comg      9 Assunto: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001     
 In articleA <OF33AFE632.F5D39A7F-ON03256A72.00407862@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,u+ fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:h2 >Who are the Sirs ? I dont know nobody there ! :-)6 >I believe we should send someone our photos to create4 >the OpenVMS Memorial Home Page when it will finally >become "RIP ".C  I I'd be willing to host a who's who picture site for comp.os.vms.  I thinkmI it would be great for all to see what the personalities who frequent thisdI newsgroup actually look like.  I've met quite good many of you but I haveoI photos of only a few.  I also finally met Shane at the last CETS and he'su5 the splitting image of his ASCII art in his .sig.  :)e  H If you're interested, send me a good photo and I'll put together a page.   --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  I city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named afterR them.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:17:30 +0100.  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001dH Message-ID: <OF90E18BFD.63BC8B07-ON80256A72.004E6016@qedi.quintiles.com>  & Why?  So that you can marry an Escort?    
 Or a Transit?. Or a (Ok, I'll stop there).   Fabo wrote:v >>>>> What I hate more in the IT area is the predominance of males !B I work with 30 males in a datacenter .... one woman: secretary and wife of one of the males !  # I would like a job at Ford Models !4 <<<o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:58:03 +0100>% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001 8 Message-ID: <8824jts6rrpn3m2c62rth6f3jim6d8fnlg@4ax.com>  @ On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:54 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:m     >iF >BTW, the fellow in the white shirt on the left of picture #2 is Hoff.  @ And to the right of Hoff is Steve Reece in the black suit and meC (somewhat hungover) in the blue top grinning inanely at the camera.1  E Dave Foddy (VMS ambassador) took a number of digital snaps. Steve, ifj8 you read this, any idea if we can get them up somewhere? -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:33:47 +0100e  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001dH Message-ID: <OF2EC9423E.BDCEA939-ON80256A72.005A82A0@qedi.quintiles.com>   Alan Greig wrote:w >>G >>BTW, the fellow in the white shirt on the left of picture #2 is Hoff.t >/A >And to the right of Hoff is Steve Reece in the black suit and mepD >(somewhat hungover) in the blue top grinning inanely at the camera.  * Thanks for pointing that one out Alan.....F It is a poor photograph of me.  Honest.  I do look better in real life (hopefully).  F >Dave Foddy (VMS ambassador) took a number of digital snaps. Steve, if9 >you read this, any idea if we can get them up somewhere?y  H I've just spoken to the person whose camera Dave was going to use and heJ doesn't believe that Dave actually managed to get any decent photos in the time he had available.   Steve.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 07:24:54 GMTB From: bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr (BERTRAND =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=EBl?=) Subject: Re: FreeVMS6 Message-ID: <slrn9j389q.ii9.bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr>  " Le Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:57:02 +0200. Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> crivait : >BERTRAND Jol wrote:o >> a% >> Le Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:44:11 +0200 1 >> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> crivait :wC >> >After reading Hoff's post I'm not sure if you are talking about  >> >the same thing.p@ >> >I had some email exchange with one of the FreeVMS people andC >> >what I understood is that they want to build something like VMS-6 >> >on top of a UNIX kernel (was it the mach kernel?). >> q" >>         It was the mach kernel. >> n; >> >I suggest to clarify what exactly you have in mind with # >> >re-animating a FreeVMS project.2 >> >  >> >I see several possibilities: >> >$ >> >1.Get Compaq to open source vms. >> dK >>         It's the best solution, but I don't know if Compaq will be agreel >> to give VMS sources...  >a@ >That's why I included this option in the rating of "huge amount@ >of time of knowledge". To convince Compaq people to open sourceA >VMS needs different skills than re-writing VMS but it definitelye9 >needs some very rare skills and a lot of time (visiting,c# >talking, writing, discussing ...).s >mC >> >2.Buy the VMS sources and re-engineer only those parts that areo( >> >left out for the well known reasons. >> >3.Reverse engineer VMS) >> >  a) using almost the same techniquesp8 >> >  b) use modern techniques (no insulting intended!!)B >> >4.Build a "new" VMS which is compatible wrt API, CLI and other> >> >blackbox attributes (blackbox in the sense that it behavesB >> >equally but the work inside may be done completely different). >>  K >>         For me, a portable VMS clone is a new OS that is compatible with @ >> OpenVMS. So the FreeVMS project seems to be the 4th solution.E >> We can reuse a microkernel to begin (as Mach4 used in the previousn >> FreeVMS project). >:@ >I'm not sure if this is really the case with the Mach solution.@ >At least the driver interface might be completely different but9 >there could probably a VMS driver emulation interface beh* >implemented as an inner kernel interface. >a >>  : >> >Any of these "options" needs a huge amount of time and >> >knowledge. >>   >>         I know... >>   >>         JKB >u+ >What do you estimate for the 4th solution?   ; 	I think that there are some utils in the Linux project andwA *BSD that we can reuse. For me, a new FreeVMS project starts witheA a kernel  over  an other OS (and its filesystem) as Linux 0.0.1 E over Minix. With a little group, I think that we can write quickly ann@ embrionic system. We can post in the gnu news too, to find other volonteers.w  	 	Regards,a   	JKB   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:53:21 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)y Subject: RE: FreeVMS+ Message-ID: <9gt59h$m62$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  L In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,.  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: |>  A |> > Interesting remark. I regarded NeXTSTEP as sitting on top ofm
 |> > UNIX. |> nE |> That's one way to look at it.  It was, however, sold as a completesN |> "NeXTStep" operating system, which was certainly improved from normal Unix, |> at least.  C In what way??  NextStep was a graphical user interface overlayed onnE Unix like interface, overlayed on the Mach Kernel.  I don't know what C "normal Unix" is supposed to mean.  But even the NextStep Home Page C claims a Unix Command Line interface was provided.  I am sufre mostlD Unix systems today would qualify as "improved from normal Unix", and8 they all have GUI's so I think the difference is minial.     |> sG |> From what I've heard, source listings are less expensive than normal H |> licenses -- maybe this could be David Dachtera's "affordable VMS." ;)  E Actually, considering their purpose, I would be very surprised if younD could acquire these listings without having a "normal" (there's thatF word again!) VMS license.  And you definitely couldn't use them as theF basis for a competing OS, free or not.  These listings are unpublished@ trade secret information with a very strong license behind them.    D |> > I'm not sure if we understand each other. With option 3 I meantB |> > an inside similar solution by really checking what's going onD |> > with help of a disassembler a.s.o.. The result should be almost |> > identical OS.  E Disassembling VMS and using that information in any way would violatemD any license agreement you signed.  And if you didn't sign a license,1 then you have stolen software in your possession.o  @ FreeVMS would have to be developed in a cleanroom environment inB order to ever be free.  Otherwise, it is just a pirated version ofC VMS and is very likely to attract the attention of some very hungryc bottom feeders.p   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   M   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:43:15 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>r Subject: RE: FreeVMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FA9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]  
 > In article  C > <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, 0 >  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:  ? > |> "NeXTStep" operating system, which was certainly improved c > from normal Unix,c > |> at least.  E > In what way??  NextStep was a graphical user interface overlayed on8G > Unix like interface, overlayed on the Mach Kernel.  I don't know what E > "normal Unix" is supposed to mean.  But even the NextStep Home PagenE > claims a Unix Command Line interface was provided.  I am sufre most F > Unix systems today would qualify as "improved from normal Unix", and: > they all have GUI's so I think the difference is minial.  G But the GUI for "normal" Unix is X11, which, as far as I've seen is not2L nearly as nice as the NeXT windowing system (which was completely separate).  L You do have a good point about most Unix implementations being improved fromD the average these days, actually.  Some more than others, of course.  > > |> From what I've heard, source listings are less expensive 
 > than normalS6 > |> licenses -- maybe this could be David Dachtera's  > "affordable VMS." ;)  G > Actually, considering their purpose, I would be very surprised if youRF > could acquire these listings without having a "normal" (there's thatH > word again!) VMS license.  And you definitely couldn't use them as theH > basis for a competing OS, free or not.  These listings are unpublishedB > trade secret information with a very strong license behind them.  L The point was, I think, that you could publish the extra work in the form ofL patches for free, and give it to anyone with license for the source listingsJ so that they could build their own copy of some "almost-vms" system.  ThusK you'd reduce the price to just the cost of the source listings.  It has yetaI to be established, though, that this is any cheaper than a VMS license :)e  G > Disassembling VMS and using that information in any way would violatecF > any license agreement you signed.  And if you didn't sign a license,3 > then you have stolen software in your possession.n  H Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I've never "signed" a hobbyistJ license.  Of course, I certainly have agreed to it, and wouldn't break it,L so if that's forbidden in the license, it would have to be done another way.  J What about the VMS internals documentation?  Does anyone know the legality  of designing "compatible" tools?  B > FreeVMS would have to be developed in a cleanroom environment inD > order to ever be free.  Otherwise, it is just a pirated version ofE > VMS and is very likely to attract the attention of some very hungrym > bottom feeders.r  H I think this discussion isn't about "free" VMS, so much as it is about aL replicated VMS with lower -- not necessarily free -- cost, and perhaps fewer
 restrictions.F   Regards,   ChrisA  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerf Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");h 'd  n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:31:16 GMTi3 From: Carl Nelson <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu>t= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.b3 Message-ID: <3B31BEE3.C2075EF8@mcmail.maricopa.edu>q  D   I had a problem similar to this a few years back. The lat protocolF doesn't give all the info to the security or accounting that it needs.E The second example, with telnet, at least gives you the IP address in:F the remote node fullname & remote username fields. In either case, you# may have to do some detective work.t  A   In my case, I ended up using a protocol analyzer to isolate the0C ethernet address of the server, then doing a visit to the equipment F room, and hence to various offices until I found a very persistent butG clueless user. We had a nice chat, and the problem was cured with a tenuA minute lesson on logging in, and how to use the phone to call the5 helpdesk if one needs help.:  H   Or, you could set up a command procedure to do an infinite loop with $G show users/full <login>   and run it for a few minutes while the alarms2H are happening, and hope that one of the cycles catches the remote deviceH name of the server. Messy and wasteful, not to mention downright sloppy, but it might work.  A   Also, you might want to see if the events suddenly stop after a2C particular user has (finally) succeeded in logging in. Like I said,@ detective work...i     Good luck.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 03:29:45 -0700& From: martyn.pattison@ntl.com (Martyn)= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.n= Message-ID: <9ed85c16.0106210229.4ee93469@posting.google.com>h  F How many terminal servers do you have ? if it's not too many you mightF be able to connect to each one (using ncp or tsm or whatever) and so a? show session all, and try and figure out which server/ports are(C regularly making connections to the system with the login failures.n@ Also if it turns out to be a dodgy terminal or book sitting on a@ keyboard, then the chances are that the port on the server has aC dedicated service or remote connection to the VMS box. You might bem able to track it down this way.s  F If you've got thousands of terminal servers then I'm sorry for wasting bandwidth by suggesting this.r    D You could also try increasing LGI_PWD_TMO temporarily (it's dynamic)F this will keep the username/password prompt up for longer, thus making; the dodgy connections stay around for longer before getting'7 disconnected and giving you more time to track it down.f   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 03:34:07 -0700& From: martyn.pattison@ntl.com (Martyn)= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.-= Message-ID: <9ed85c16.0106210234.2d70c159@posting.google.com>i  C One more thing, could this be coming from another (or the same) VMSnE box by someone doing a "$set host/lat "? I don't have any LAT systems1@ to play with so I'm guessing here. It could be someone who's got@ something in their login.com (or elsewhere) to bounce them on toE another system, this could be being invoked by a batch job or similare. (I've seen people do dafter things than this!)   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:28:02 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.o3 Message-ID: <PaVE8Z9TGqDc@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  g In article <be44b12d.0106202153.60eacd36@posting.google.com>, piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers) writes:c  + > Remote username:          TELNET_6464BE69f  F TELNET connections will log different data from LAT connections, but I2 agree several times a minute is not likely a user.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationy= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying0   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:29:07 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)2= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.c3 Message-ID: <l6XlzOnx9YKm@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  E Any possibility there's a "disconnected" printer connected (one whiche7 doesn't have a reverse LAT device set up on it's port)?h  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group-E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:27:53 +020022 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>= Subject: Re: How to see who causes execessive login failures.kG Message-ID: <3b320403$0$17510$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>r   Hello!  J It might as well be a port that has autoconnect to a service and (limited)L modem control enabled and no or a defective modem connected. I had a similarG problem a couple of years ago and it took quite a while to find out theu reason.y   regards      Ing. Ren Schelbaum    Datakom Austria GmbH Betrieb Datenmehrwertdienste Wiedner Hauptstrae 73	 1040 Wienh      F "Carl Nelson" <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag- news:3B31BEE3.C2075EF8@mcmail.maricopa.edu...hF >   I had a problem similar to this a few years back. The lat protocolH > doesn't give all the info to the security or accounting that it needs.G > The second example, with telnet, at least gives you the IP address inaH > the remote node fullname & remote username fields. In either case, you% > may have to do some detective work.  >aC >   In my case, I ended up using a protocol analyzer to isolate thedE > ethernet address of the server, then doing a visit to the equipmentaH > room, and hence to various offices until I found a very persistent butI > clueless user. We had a nice chat, and the problem was cured with a ten C > minute lesson on logging in, and how to use the phone to call the  > helpdesk if one needs help.d > J >   Or, you could set up a command procedure to do an infinite loop with $I > show users/full <login>   and run it for a few minutes while the alarms J > are happening, and hope that one of the cycles catches the remote deviceJ > name of the server. Messy and wasteful, not to mention downright sloppy, > but it might work. >AC >   Also, you might want to see if the events suddenly stop after afE > particular user has (finally) succeeded in logging in. Like I said,t > detective work...  >m >   Good luck. >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:29:06 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: Intrusion & Password Checking; Message-ID: <3b318622.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,  : Larry Kilgallen (Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam) wrote:6 > martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes: >dI > > Intrusion: Is it possible to use $SCAN_INTRUSION for checking without J > > having the service insert a suspect record (as I read it, the entry inI > > the System Services Reference suggests this is possible)? Or do I use  > > $SHOW_INTRUSION for that?h >o: > Why would you want to avoid inserting a suspect record ?= > Are you intent on letting the attacker have unlimited tries ? > at guessing a password over the web interface and then switchD9 > to a regular login once the password has been guessed ?S  E What I meant was _checking_ for an intrusion record. The entry in the'F the System Services Reference suggests (to me, at last) that passing aJ VMS success status as the first parameter only checks (without inserting).  H BTW: $SHOW_INTRUSION (or the docs) seems to have a bug in VMS/VAX 6.2. IH specified CIA$M_INTRUDERS, but suspect records (with breakin_block.flagsD = 0) are returned - though the System Services References explicitly says it won't.  N > > Dictionary: Does one use a key of the actual length of the password-to-be,G > > or fill it up with NULs to the record size (32)? The first approach4D > > would find "xyz" even though only "xyzzy" is listed in the file. > @ > Don't use approaches that produce wrong answers.  The question@ > of what is the fill character can be resolved by DUMPing a bit > of the disctionary file.  + OK (I know that the fill character is NUL).l  = > > History: Is the record format documented somewhere? [...]  >qA > In general, unsupported interfaces to VMS are documented in they > Source Listings Kit.  F I figured it out myself (but I might look into the listings just to be sure). It'se  	  struct {>.    char username[32]; /* padded with blanks */9    struct { quadword hashed_pwd, timestamp; } data[2000];b  };e  L > > where username is the key and the number of hashed PWs can be calculatedK > > from rab$w_rsz returned for a record. How does one compare a PW againsteK > > the hashed PWs? I.e. where does one get the algorithm and the salt from ) > > to $HASH_PASSWORD the password-to-be?i >(F > The algorithm and salt should be stored wherever the hashed passwordK > is being stored.  For VMS system passwords, this is in the SYSUAF record.   E Erm.. so that means an UAF record's salt and algorithm don't ever geteH changed? And new passwords should be hashed using those? That's the onlyH possibility I can imagine so that new passwords can be compared with the history records.   Thanks for the answer.  M It sure is fun to explore yet another unknown (to me, that is) corner of VMS.>   cu,    Martin -- aG So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmert4 for all the fish...        | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/S;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2001 23:00:12 -0700' From: piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers)M Subject: Re: Listservera= Message-ID: <be44b12d.0106202200.74b4134d@posting.google.com>>  \ norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote in message news:<C2256A71.005BF589.00@jklh21.valmet.com>... > See INTRO4 in the FAQB >  >  >  > . > piet@timmers-it.nl on 06/20/2001 08:36:20 AM > & > Please respond to piet@timmers-it.nl >  > To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.com  > cc:e > Subject:  Listserver >    Thanks.l   >  >  > D > There used to be a way to get all postings in this group as email. >  > Does anyone know how?w	 > Thanks.y >  > Piet Timmers   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 06:40:23 -0700; From: jnchambl@texaschildrenshospital.org (Jesse Chambless)1# Subject: Long distance VMS clustersi= Message-ID: <d92c63cc.0106210540.656b304b@posting.google.com>s  F We are currently planning on moving our VMS cluster nodes for disasterF tolerance.  The current plan is to have 1 node in our current computerA room, 1 node in a newly built computer room approximately 3000 fteB away, and 1 node approximately 30 miles from these locations.  The. nodes will be ES40s with SAN EMA12000 storage.  C We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all diskoB drives etc.  Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersB will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away6 perform with users being load balanced on the cluster.  D I seem to have conflicting information on how performance will be onD the far away node and the latentcy of the shadow sets as far as real time usage is concerned.   Thanks in advance.   Jesse Chamblesso" VMS/DSM Technical Services Analyst Texas Children's Hospital  Houston, TX    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 10:34:24 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clustersw3 Message-ID: <YLoBp8Gksfej@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  { In article <d92c63cc.0106210540.656b304b@posting.google.com>, jnchambl@texaschildrenshospital.org (Jesse Chambless) writes:oH > We are currently planning on moving our VMS cluster nodes for disasterH > tolerance.  The current plan is to have 1 node in our current computerC > room, 1 node in a newly built computer room approximately 3000 fteD > away, and 1 node approximately 30 miles from these locations.  The0 > nodes will be ES40s with SAN EMA12000 storage. > E > We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all disknD > drives etc.  Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersD > will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away8 > perform with users being load balanced on the cluster. > F > I seem to have conflicting information on how performance will be onF > the far away node and the latentcy of the shadow sets as far as real > time usage is concerned. >   = 	Etrade *was* 100 miles apart , but they moved closer.  Keith.E 	Parris does his excellent job of discussing the long distant issues s 	here:  N http://www.geocities.com/keithparris/decus_presentations/s99_long_distance.ppt  < 	There is also a slew of excellent technical material on his9 	homepage and Google dredging will bring up various Decusm 	presentations of his also.:  A 	Shadow performance?  You have write back caching turned on, thatc? 	is a given.  I believe work is under way to cut round-trips oniB 	shadow writes (Keith mentions somewhere it takes 2 round-trips to, 	do the remote write, sorry no source :-( ).  ; 	Shadow Reads?  Great news there!  7.2-1 has /READ_COST and.B 	/SITE qualifiers to ensure most/all reads are *local*.  Excellent< 	newer paper on Long Distant clusters is here and touches on 	that:  > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/fc_hbvs_dtc_wp.pdf   				Rob,   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:42:04 +0200o2 From: "Thomas H. Pauli" <thomaspauli@arcormail.de>' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusterso+ Message-ID: <3B3207BC.3020209@arcormail.de>y   Dear Jesse,a  : everything depends on the interconnect you plan to use. It> surely has to be optical, regarding to the distances involved.= The critical thing are shadow-merges and writes on the shadow = disks. Writes are finished, when the remote shadow member haso9 said so. This leads to latency, depending on the speed ofg; your interconnect. Reads are balanced, AFAIK, to 80% on thet> local member. The thing to fear is a shadow merge, if you keep; the large size of today's disks in mind. This is one reasony< for our migration to fibre channel. With FDDI, HSZ50s, RZ28s8 a merge over 15 shadow sets might last about five hours!   Thomas   Jesse Chambless wrote:  H > We are currently planning on moving our VMS cluster nodes for disasterH > tolerance.  The current plan is to have 1 node in our current computerC > room, 1 node in a newly built computer room approximately 3000 ftrD > away, and 1 node approximately 30 miles from these locations.  The0 > nodes will be ES40s with SAN EMA12000 storage. > E > We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all disk D > drives etc.  Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersD > will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away8 > perform with users being load balanced on the cluster. > F > I seem to have conflicting information on how performance will be onF > the far away node and the latentcy of the shadow sets as far as real > time usage is concerned. >  > Thanks in advance. >  > Jesse Chamblessy$ > VMS/DSM Technical Services Analyst > Texas Children's Hospitaln
 > Houston, TX      --  9 Thomas H. Pauli, Hammersteinstr.19, 14199 Berlin, Germanyl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:08:06 GMTe1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>d' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clustersi2 Message-ID: <3B320ED6.20458518@clarityconnect.com>  F You really should have a storage/cluster presentation prepared for youG by your Compaq sales person.  Using the latest versions of VMS with thee@ multisite improvements in shadowing your IO times should be veryE acceptable.  But there are so many variables in how you can configureaG this and what your real needs are it'll be impossible to flesh this outr in the newsgroup.t   Jesse Chambless wrote: > H > We are currently planning on moving our VMS cluster nodes for disasterH > tolerance.  The current plan is to have 1 node in our current computerC > room, 1 node in a newly built computer room approximately 3000 ft0D > away, and 1 node approximately 30 miles from these locations.  The0 > nodes will be ES40s with SAN EMA12000 storage. > E > We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all disk D > drives etc.  Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersD > will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away8 > perform with users being load balanced on the cluster. > F > I seem to have conflicting information on how performance will be onF > the far away node and the latentcy of the shadow sets as far as real > time usage is concerned. >  > Thanks in advance. >  > Jesse Chamblessd$ > VMS/DSM Technical Services Analyst > Texas Children's Hospitalu
 > Houston, TXv   -- sD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 07:48:17 -05001 From: claird@starbase.neosoft.com (Cameron Laird)r9 Subject: Re: Need TCL 8.2 or above port for Alpha OpenVMSmO Message-ID: <D237A1192755DED5.1E49A82F3D8E660B.92FFF93FF6F55188@lp.airnews.net>p  * In article <3B2F4DD6.9E2C5826@oracle.com>,. Shiv  <Sivakumar.Thangavelu@oracle.com> wrote: 			. 			. 			.M >Could anyone point me to the location where i can get the latest port of TCLd  >8.2 or above for Alpha OpenVMS. 			. 			. 			.1 I don't think there is one; Gerald's probably the. best to confirm this.R  0 It shouldn't be hard to generate it.  However, I1 don't know of anyone planning to do it.  How much. does Oracle want it? -- r  " Cameron Laird <claird@NeoSoft.com>! Business:  http://www.Phaseit.netn8 Personal:  http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:26:03 +0000 (UTC)g' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) 9 Subject: Re: Need TCL 8.2 or above port for Alpha OpenVMSb+ Message-ID: <9gt3mb$sil$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>a   In article <D237A1192755DED5.1E49A82F3D8E660B.92FFF93FF6F55188@lp.airnews.net>, claird@starbase.neosoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:w+ >In article <3B2F4DD6.9E2C5826@oracle.com>,e/ >Shiv  <Sivakumar.Thangavelu@oracle.com> wrote:g >			.  >			.  >			. N >>Could anyone point me to the location where i can get the latest port of TCL! >>8.2 or above for Alpha OpenVMS.r >			., >			.a >			.h2 >I don't think there is one; Gerald's probably the >best to confirm this. >v1 >It shouldn't be hard to generate it.  However, I-2 >don't know of anyone planning to do it.  How much >does Oracle want it?o  % Is it needed for the Oracle 9i port ?e  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:41:03 +0100g" From: Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com>) Subject: Re: RAID on the AXP 150 (Jensen)n@ Message-ID: <OF131E9455.CF1DFC3C-ON80256A72.00391B93@eu.csc.com>   Jim,  / I have a Jensen axp 150 / DEC 2000-300 as well.e  . I have DSSI on it, but I cannot boot from DSSI( drives from the console. Similar to your, situation. When the system is booted however+ all DSSI functions work fine, including SCS-/ traffic (which incidentally is not mentioned ase, supported anywhere!). EISA controllers KFESB and a KFESA.  4 I think that it is because the machine was basically5 designed as a fast PC that can also run VMS, it's not4 very clever.  , The devices show up as DSSI during the POST.  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com6   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:32:15 -0500b+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>eY Subject: RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS oL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FA6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Hamlyn Mootoo [mailto:univms@bigfoot.com]a  > > trick when negotiating, because the VC's will try to secure  > these rightsF > in the fine print).  I think that showing profitability from support  G It's rather like making a pact with the devil, isn't it?  Better to trylE getting money from other sources if at all possible, and if it's not,sI consider abandoning the venture all-together.  VCs tend to do the same to 1 companies as --oh, CA, for instance, to software.-  ? > one experienced Sys Admin can do the work of at least 5 very  
 > junior onesp= > in a support role by identifying and solving problems much e > faster.  Thisi0 > newsgroup itself is a salient example of that.  H Hire people who are experienced, and pay them enough to keep them happy.: Not new information, but people forget to do it.  I agree.  H > had an ad once that touted the CDROM as "internet connected"- what theH > hell does that mean? People bought it though.  And you've got to admitE > that their commercials were visually sexy.  Why do you think the US   G No, I don't have to admit anything about their commercials, and I don'teF think the disco space-suit guys were sexy at all.  (Sorry, I've got toI disagree on this one)  Honestly, their commercials were goofy, and peopleuF bought into it because thinking of computers as "goofy" is better than thinking of them as scary.  H > Marines used Medieval Battle scenes to sell the idea to sign your life; > away to them for a few years? Because kids eat it up.  I e  B I'm all for using medieval battle scenes to sell VMS, actually. :)  F > Anyway, my point is, if you put enough marketing behind anything, itD > will sell (how the hell did rap become so pervasive in U.S cultureD > anyway? - there's your answer).  Humans, especially the young, are  D Now we know who to blame for rap, but what's a fitting punishment?    K .. First off, we should rehabilitate rappers by sending them to a course ata Julliard. ;)  4 I would personally *love* to get MTV to play Mozart.  > > WORKS.  If you want VMS to sell, make it a household name - 
 > make it themC > NEW thing.  For crying out loud, BELLBOTTOMS came back - and they 
 > pre-date > VMS!!!  I Ok... so we need a fashion designer who's involved with VMS?  "I think iteC would make a bold statement if you put the prompt over there..." :)u  I Seriously, it's a good metaphor, but the question is, how do you sell it?o   Regards,   Christ  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerr Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e 'f   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 12:50:36 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) P Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy+ Message-ID: <9gsqis$gkm$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>o  ; I don't suppose it has occured to anyone yet that VMS isn'tw: currently for sale.  And there have been no rumblings from3 Compaq to hint that this might change anytime soon.e   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 14:38:06 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)T Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS, Message-ID: <9gt0se$bqt@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  X In article <3B31284A.DE44A02C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:A >I offer a reward of $250.- for the first poster who proposes the'; >company which makes most sense buying the VMS from Compaq.t >s0 >I have a proposal which makes most sense to me.@ >If nobody makes this proposal I reveal mine and will reward the> >first of 50 poster who will convince me that there is another7 >company which makes more sense to buy VMS from Compaq.)  I GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, could'K use it internally in their many factories, and could bundle it with some of-F their other products that could benefit from that sort of reliability.H For instance, power plants or MRI machines.  And best of all, they have I little or no reliance on Microsoft for anything, so they wouldn't suffer  E the constant conflict of interest that has dogged Digital and Compaq.t4 They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech nJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:55:19 GMTi= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)rT Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS0 Message-ID: <009FDDC9.1FF88694@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <9gt0se$bqt@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:eY >In article <3B31284A.DE44A02C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:eB >>I offer a reward of $250.- for the first poster who proposes the< >>company which makes most sense buying the VMS from Compaq. >>1 >>I have a proposal which makes most sense to me.mA >>If nobody makes this proposal I reveal mine and will reward thed? >>first of 50 poster who will convince me that there is anothert8 >>company which makes more sense to buy VMS from Compaq. >nJ >GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, could  C If my experiences with "management talent" at GE AstroSpace are any B indication of the "management talent" throughout GE, lord help us.C My immediate experience was on the Mars Observer project.  Remember-C what happened with it?  The glut of management types micro-managingtC the project had me wondering if the satellite would ever get to its B intended destination (and it didn't).  I often joked that it wouldD crash on its birthing plant in Hightstown, offering a fitting end toE the mess of management that created it!  FYI, the Hightstown facilitylD is now a ghost town and the only indication that GE was there is the@ dirt shadow of the meatball on the brick of the main building.       --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:57:19 +0100r  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMStH Message-ID: <OF2DF4F32A.9B777684-ON80256A72.003BC89A@qedi.quintiles.com>   IBM.> They make processor chips (including Alpha IIRC) and hardware. They do storage.- They "understand" the enterprise marketplace.rD They like diversity within their business and are happy to advertise	 products. K They tried to market AS400 as the VAXkiller but Digital/Compaq beat them tog it.3G They have an FM business in-house to do management of customer systems.e0 And (I think) they have a services organisation.  J Plus, IBM salespeople will sell you things you don't need (read VAX Trek). Steve.   Christof asked : >>> @ I offer a reward of $250.- for the first poster who proposes the: company which makes most sense buying the VMS from Compaq.  / I have a proposal which makes most sense to me. ? If nobody makes this proposal I reveal mine and will reward the = first of 50 poster who will convince me that there is another-6 company which makes more sense to buy VMS from Compaq. <<<@   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:34:07 +0200e& From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>S Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMSt# Message-ID: <3B32300F.FF6@c-lab.de>b  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:a >  > IBM.@ > They make processor chips (including Alpha IIRC) and hardware. > They do storage./ > They "understand" the enterprise marketplace.eF > They like diversity within their business and are happy to advertise > products.iM > They tried to market AS400 as the VAXkiller but Digital/Compaq beat them to. > it. I > They have an FM business in-house to do management of customer systems.v2 > And (I think) they have a services organisation. > L > Plus, IBM salespeople will sell you things you don't need (read VAX Trek). > Steve.  A If similarity would be a decisive factor, I'd appoint ... Fujitsuc Siemens.  G Similar structure: Large PC 'foreground', large mainframe/midframe/UNIXe server 'background'.    G Besides Windows, more than a single additional OS: BS2000, Reliant UNIXpH aka SINIX. Not mention different hardware lines, as the UNIX servers run/ on MIPS, the mainframes on propietary CPUs (?).p  F Similar Situation: Future of UNIX servers and mainframes is uncertain,H BS2000 is more and more a legacy product, and Reliant UNIX together withE MIPS-based CPU modules will be ditched for Solaris on Itanium. Due toiF Fujitsu, there is already a full replacement for the RM600/RM400 line,2 namely the Fujitsu SPARC servers (GP7000 and up).   D Then we have the Synergy Effect (very important, was touted as majorB factor when Siemens bought Nixdorf 10 years ago 8-)): very similarD product lines, so massive layoff opportunities to boost share prices 8-((  E And, last but not least, this way Fujitsu Siemens would finally get aD1 huge market share with all the 'Leftpondians'....t    G This is of course not that serious... but we have seen stranger merges,-
 haven't we ??-   -- -* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:25:16 -0400u+ From: Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu>aY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VMe' Message-ID: <3B3211DC.2431359F@uml.edu>m  E This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,r but ...n    H The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadE of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (stilln9 could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"  --E Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell, W1LPG    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:03:53 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>aY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VM & Message-ID: <3B321AE9.1AB5287@fsi.net>   Brendan Welch wrote: > G > This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,S	 > but ...  > J > The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadG > of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (stills; > could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"t  ) I wouldn't want to see Hoff outta work...a  H Then again, I suspect he would be more successful at finding replacement? employment than I have been to date, owing to his knowledge and  technical and personal skills.   -- e David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsc http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.8   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:33:05 -0400o+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>oY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS # Message-ID: <sb31e98b.089@aaas.org>t  L You'll recall that AT&T SOLD System V Release IV to Novell, who mismanaged =K it into near extinction before the whole POSIX thing. The Unix revolution = K owes most of it's thanks to BSD and the likes...you STILL need to license =o certain System V attributes.  < http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html  = Don't worry, Plan 9 will take over the world soon enough. <G>0  D >>> Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> 06/21/2001 11:25:16 AM >>>E This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,i but ...e    H The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadE of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (stillm9 could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"g --E Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell, W1LPGn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:13:44 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMSAL Message-ID: <OFFE11854F.4555F013-ON03256A72.0058D102@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  G The admirables Hoffman and the OpenVMS team have something which cannotcI be bought or sold. Their incredible minds to work with the most powerfull 	 operatingw system even created.  / I believe they will not be "out" of Compaq ....e  J Imagine if all the OpenVMS team will be hired by Sun or HP. With all their strongH knowloge of  operating systems, lock management, storage,  they probably can5H work for some of these companies to improve their Unix operating systems and6' make them much more reliable ($$$$)....T   Regardsr   FC        B "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> em 21/06/2001 13:03:53  = Favor responder a "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh      E Assunto: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company G          shouldbuyVMS VMS VMS shouldbuyVMS VMS VMS shouldbuyVMS VMS VMS      Brendan Welch wrote: >iG > This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,s	 > but ...e >nJ > The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadG > of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (stilll; > could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"p  ) I wouldn't want to see Hoff outta work...i  H Then again, I suspect he would be more successful at finding replacement? employment than I have been to date, owing to his knowledge andn technical and personal skills.   -- David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:56:11 -0400a( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS0+ Message-ID: <3B32353B.69FEF428@bigfoot.com>j  # Yes, but AIX is already invented :)    HM  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > I > The admirables Hoffman and the OpenVMS team have something which cannotaK > be bought or sold. Their incredible minds to work with the most powerfullt > operatingt > system even created. > 1 > I believe they will not be "out" of Compaq ....  > L > Imagine if all the OpenVMS team will be hired by Sun or HP. With all their > strongJ > knowloge of  operating systems, lock management, storage,  they probably > caniJ > work for some of these companies to improve their Unix operating systems > andw) > make them much more reliable ($$$$)....c > 	 > Regardsu >  > FC > D > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> em 21/06/2001 13:03:53 > ? > Favor responder a "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c >  >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi > G > Assunto: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company5I >          shouldbuyVMS VMS VMS shouldbuyVMS VMS VMS shouldbuyVMS VMS VMSi >  > Brendan Welch wrote: > >MI > > This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,  > > but ...  > >cL > > The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadI > > of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (still = > > could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"i > + > I wouldn't want to see Hoff outta work...e > J > Then again, I suspect he would be more successful at finding replacementA > employment than I have been to date, owing to his knowledge and   > technical and personal skills. >  > -- > David J. Dachterat > dba DJE Systemsp > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. > B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. > H > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:36:27 +0100a  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS sH Message-ID: <OF5FE46A58.147C1F6C-ON80256A72.005B125B@qedi.quintiles.com>  K Erm, 'scuse me.  Compaq are.  To Micro$lopped and Oracle.  In large chunks.c   >>> H The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadE of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (still 9 could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"  <<<n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:48:47 -0300s) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brvY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS oL Message-ID: <OF0B603195.656D79AC-ON03256A72.005BE629@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  J Instead of  think in the OpenVMS exctinction, would be better think in the/ OpenVMS evolution. What will come tomorrow ????l    1 Sometimes we play with bad jokes, RIPs and etc...t  9 But if Compaq will not make investments in OVMS anymore ?g  ? And if they dont liberate the OpenVMS code to another company ?   / If Compaq decide to fire all the OpenVMS team ?d  < I believe they will able to startup a new company and create. an Operating System better than OpenVMS ! !  !   Regardst   FC            < John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> em 21/06/2001 13:33:05  7 Favor responder a John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>r             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come      = Assunto: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which-7          companyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS shouldbuyVMS VMS Vl    J You'll recall that AT&T SOLD System V Release IV to Novell, who mismanagedI it into near extinction before the whole POSIX thing. The Unix revolutioncI owes most of it's thanks to BSD and the likes...you STILL need to licensew certain System V attributes.  < http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html  = Don't worry, Plan 9 will take over the world soon enough. <G>   D >>> Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> 06/21/2001 11:25:16 AM >>>E This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,| but ...n    H The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "InsteadE of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (stilli9 could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"i --E Brendan Welch, system analyst, Univ. of Massachusetts - Lowell, W1LPG$   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:01:29 -0500r+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>oY Subject: RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: whichcompanyshouldbuyVMS VMS VMS eL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FAB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----+ > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brf  @ > Instead of  think in the OpenVMS exctinction, would be better  > think in the1 > OpenVMS evolution. What will come tomorrow ????e  E It would be better to thinkin terms of evolution.  I certainly try.  r  3 > Sometimes we play with bad jokes, RIPs and etc...   ; > But if Compaq will not make investments in OVMS anymore ?t  A > And if they dont liberate the OpenVMS code to another company ?s  1 > If Compaq decide to fire all the OpenVMS team ?o  > > I believe they will able to startup a new company and create0 > an Operating System better than OpenVMS ! !  !  G Ahh -- if only I had your faith in humanity.  No, though.  Sadly, thereaG doesn't seem to be much market demand for working products :(  Everyonev wants billyware.   Regards,   Chris*    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer* Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");* '*  *   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 01:08:11 -0700 From: rob@mkgm.com (rob murphy)1B Subject: Re: SMTP notification messages - how do I turn them off ?< Message-ID: <9e72a7b2.0106210008.29353d3@posting.google.com>   "Henry W. Miller" <henry.miller@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<j69Y6.2204$3d3.167564@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...o >  > Rob, > K >     Are you running the "standard" SMTP server, or one of the third party>& > packages?  Just to clarify...  Best, >  > -HWM    E Its just the standard SMTP server. I thought there was a way of doingh= it, but I cannot find any information on it. Any help greatlya
 appreciated !    Cheers, Rob.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:56:24 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>tB Subject: Re: SMTP notification messages - how do I turn them off ?, Message-ID: <3B31C4C7.25A37A18@videotron.ca>   rob murphy wrote:eG > Its just the standard SMTP server. I thought there was a way of doingA? > it, but I cannot find any information on it. Any help greatlyo > appreciated !u  H Bear in mind that it is against internet expectations/culture for a SMTPH server NOT to send non-delivery notifications for emails being sent from foreign hosts to your host.   Q you can define which account is used to send the non-delivery notifications with:d  8 $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_POSTMASTER_ALIAS "Postmaster"   C for instance. (there are other implications to this, make sure that # "Postmaster" exists on your system)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:21:40 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ???, Message-ID: <3B31A07D.9F6AB6B1@videotron.ca>  5 What is the status of the "mature" product DECwrite ?   M Did Digital sell it off to a company which then abandonned it, or did Digital  just abandon the product ?  N What if DECwrite were to become open sourced, and someone were to make it able: to natively open and save WORD files on VMS workstations ?   Similarly, what about DECcalc ?u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:10:26 +0010h% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aus4 Subject: Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ???5 Message-ID: <01K51FJV1AVM001S5N@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>d   JF Mezei wrote:t  6 >What is the status of the "mature" product DECwrite ? >tG >Did Digital sell it off to a company which then abandonned it, or did s Digital  >just abandon the product ?v  F To my knowledge, it's "in maintenance".  Similar to FMS and GKS.  You J still need a licence, but they all "died" early 1990's.  Who owns it I am 	 not sure.r  K >What if DECwrite were to become open sourced, and someone were to make it M able; >to natively open and save WORD files on VMS workstations ?   J I doubt that would work.  Back then, we wrote all our application manuals H in DECwrite.  From then we tried to port to WordPerfect and then Word.  H The former import was reasonably successful, but the latter an abyssmal G failure. (Much as I understand the secretaries had changing from WP to l Word)   J DECwrite output is very close to ASCII text, and that is what we ended up D exporting and one of our PC Word type people spent a lot of time in F WordPerfect followed by Word, very frustratingly -- totally different / fonts that would not recognise each other, etc.n  I A large document that I had written, I exported to text and then spent a sJ lot of time adding LaTex commands to it.  This latter is my preference as B I still believe that anything from the bg underworld is not worth A pursuing.  "Compatability" or "portability" are NOT words in his   vocabulary.k  C I consider DECwrite dead from any viewpoint of document production.s    >Similarly, what about DECcalc ?  I No knowledge.  Other than the little calculator icon on the bottom of my  
 screen :-)   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,a
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiaw   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,P; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:48:24 -0400 . From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>4 Subject: Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ???+ Message-ID: <9gstu4$fjo$1@bob.news.rcn.net>6  G DecWrite 3.1 is still on the Alpha SPL as of the June 2001 distributionwL (disk 4), so I highly doubt that it is public domain.  The files (spd, etc.) appear to date from 1995.r   Ken Randelly  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B31A07D.9F6AB6B1@videotron.ca...7 > What is the status of the "mature" product DECwrite ?D >uG > Did Digital sell it off to a company which then abandonned it, or dido Digitalr > just abandon the product ? > K > What if DECwrite were to become open sourced, and someone were to make it  able< > to natively open and save WORD files on VMS workstations ? >:! > Similarly, what about DECcalc ?a   ------------------------------  / Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:24:33 +0200 (MET DST),& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>9 Subject: Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market. 6 Message-ID: <200106210619.IAA05351@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  
 Andrew wrote:3   >>>4? Since they currently only support 1-32 Compaq cannot make this I= claim. You are talking about a yet to be released GS machine.n <<<g  H For OpenVMS your are right, AFAIK for True64 not. There is an SC series,E which can be expanded to 128 CPUs. Me be this series is dead. I don'ty1 know, because we do use only OpenVMS from Compaq.e   Regardds Rudolf Wingertu   ------------------------------  / Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:47:01 +0200 (MET DST):& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>9 Subject: Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market. 6 Message-ID: <200106210642.IAA05376@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  H I am so sorry, but the SC series Alphas could not be sized up to 128CPUsG no they could be sized up to 512CPUs. Sorry, that I did inform me after  sending my email.b   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:03:06 +0100w0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>9 Subject: Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market.o* Message-ID: <3B31AA3A.A61BB506@uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:c >  > Hello, > J > I am so sorry, but the SC series Alphas could not be sized up to 128CPUsI > no they could be sized up to 512CPUs. Sorry, that I did inform me aftert > sending my email.y >  > Regards Rudolf Wingert    5 However since it is an MPP system it does not count. o4 So the statement is still wrong. Try running Oracle  on it :):):)     Regards  Andrew Harrisonp Enterprise IT Architecte   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 10:23:09 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g9 Subject: Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market. 3 Message-ID: <lrlyctr40NpI@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  ] In article <3B31AA3A.A61BB506@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:o > Rudolf Wingert wrote:g >>  	 >> Hello,8 >> sK >> I am so sorry, but the SC series Alphas could not be sized up to 128CPUsmJ >> no they could be sized up to 512CPUs. Sorry, that I did inform me after >> sending my email. >> ' >> Regards Rudolf Wingerte >  > 7 > However since it is an MPP system it does not count.  " > So the statement is still wrong.  = I suppose Andrew feels the MPP cutoff is 129 CPUs or greater.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:47:44 -0400/2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: Sun is the leader of the UNIX server market. L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011147440001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <lrlyctr40NpI@eisner.encompasserve.org>,(: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  < > In article <3B31AA3A.A61BB506@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: > > Rudolf Wingert wrote:h > >> u > >> Hello,4 > >>  M > >> I am so sorry, but the SC series Alphas could not be sized up to 128CPUs L > >> no they could be sized up to 512CPUs. Sorry, that I did inform me after > >> sending my email. > >> 2 > >> Regards Rudolf Wingerth > >  > > 9 > > However since it is an MPP system it does not count.  $ > > So the statement is still wrong. > ? > I suppose Andrew feels the MPP cutoff is 129 CPUs or greater..  D You're probaby right, but the SC series really isn't tightly-coupledE enough to call SMP.  I think it's quad servers hooked together with awI layer or two of crossbar switches.   Not all that different from from the C GS series, but the switches in the SC are a lot wider, and probablye slower.    -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 09:04:22 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e4 Subject: Re: SYS$PIPEDRIVER, MPA0:, I/O Users Manual3 Message-ID: <qNb1mCmssbPP@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  g In article <3B30F1EA.17FB4BAE@compaq.com.doom>, Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom> writes:    > I bet thee > person whoK > needed the driver I could come up with a working driver in under 20 hours   F Speaking of drivers, are there any plans to update the manuals which IF now find in the "Archived Manuals" part of the CDROM, or are end users out of luck?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationw= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:59:27 GMTo3 From: Carl Nelson <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu>s" Subject: Re: Threads and mailboxes3 Message-ID: <3B31B76D.52CF24F7@mcmail.maricopa.edu>o   Martin Ejdestig wrote:  H > I've got a couple of questions when it comes to threads and mailboxes. >eF > 1. Is it ok to write to a mailbox in one thread and at the same timeF > read from it in another? The following code works but is it 110% ok? >a > <snip> >uD > 2. Can I only do 9999 (if I'm lucky) crembx() calls (in all procs)G > like the one above before I get into trouble? What concerns me is theyD > following statement in "OpenVMS System Services Reference Manual":F > "Mailboxes are assigned sequentially increasing numbers (from 1 to aG > maximum of 9999) as they are created. When all unit numbers have beeng5 > used, the system starts numbering again at unit 1."i >  > Thanks in advance! >e > /Martin Ejdestig  C   If I recall correctly, you don't even need to be running separatepB threads for this to work and be o.k. As long as there are separateH contexts for the channels, even in the same thread. At least that's what8 I recall from a VMS programming class several years ago.  H   As to the 9999 limit... The wrap around back to one happens, but thereE is a bitmap of in-use unit numbers that is checked before a number isDH allocated. Sort of like how LAT unit numbers are allocated. So the limitH is on the number of CONCURRENT mailboxes that can be in existence at anyH one time. If you need ten thousand or more mailboxes in existence at anyA one time you've got a problem, but most likely it's a programmingu problem, on any system.    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 09:05:22 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris), Subject: Re: Training sites for vms training= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106210805.613093eb@posting.google.com>   l chris_c_essex@hotmail.com (Chris) wrote in message news:<c190ca4b.0106120538.14a7b96d@posting.google.com>...H > I'm looking for some web sites that will provide intermediate training
 > for VMS.   See http://www.ccsscorp.com/.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:35:24 -0700i& From: Tom Crabtree <tccrab@sunset.net>, Subject: Trouble with second NIC in PWS500AU) Message-ID: <3B32062C.84545D8@sunset.net>y   All:  C I'm having an interesting problem a PWS500AU running OpenVMS 7.2-1.pD I've added a second NIC, a DE205 (I know it's old & slow, but it wasB just laying in the bottom of my junk drawer, feeling lonely).  The@ on-board is the 10/100 Tulip, and it's configured for TCP/IP.  IG configured the DE205 for Dec Net, no TCP/IP.  When I hook both cards toeD my house net, the onboard (tulip) becomes unavailable. (error during( boot up, NCP shows only ERA0:, no EWA0:)H When I disconnect the DE205 both NIC's are available. (NCP shows EWA0: & ERA0:)E Any help would be most appreciated.  I'm suspecting a hardware issue,8A since the error occurs during the boot process and not during the.* configuration and addressing of the ports.   Tom Crabtree tccrab@sunset.nety   --A -----------------------------------------------------------------i My father used to tell me,> "Son, there is nothing wrong with being scared. . . as long as5 you don't let it affect you until the danger is over.-> Being hysterical is okay, too . . . afterwards and in private.A Tears are not unmanly . . . in the bathroom with the door locked.x; The difference between a coward and a brave man is mostly aO matter of timing"O  0       --------- Robert A. Heinlein -------------A -----------------------------------------------------------------e   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:55:17 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)a0 Subject: Re: Trouble with second NIC in PWS500AU0 Message-ID: <9gt5d5$jib$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  R In article <3B32062C.84545D8@sunset.net>, Tom Crabtree <tccrab@sunset.net> writes:D >I'm having an interesting problem a PWS500AU running OpenVMS 7.2-1.E >I've added a second NIC, a DE205 (I know it's old & slow, but it was C >just laying in the bottom of my junk drawer, feeling lonely).  TheEA >on-board is the 10/100 Tulip, and it's configured for TCP/IP.  IeH >configured the DE205 for Dec Net, no TCP/IP.  When I hook both cards toE >my house net, the onboard (tulip) becomes unavailable. (error duringl) >boot up, NCP shows only ERA0:, no EWA0:)eI >When I disconnect the DE205 both NIC's are available. (NCP shows EWA0: &h >ERA0:)vF >Any help would be most appreciated.  I'm suspecting a hardware issue,B >since the error occurs during the boot process and not during the+ >configuration and addressing of the ports.'  0 You did start Decnet before any TCP/IP software?   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannn  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:20:50 GMT@8 From: Veli =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=F6rkk=F6?= <korkko@decus.fi>! Subject: Re: X25 and FTAM problemS( Message-ID: <3B31A8BF.93EAD0B2@decus.fi>   Kenneth wrote: > 6 > I have try to connect dir the remote node with FTAM: >  > $ dir/app=ftam APP"ID"::"A.A"s > K > but I got the error message in the console that "Server Connection rejecth& > for X25 client node Local:.mysystem" > . > I have do all all the configuration for the, > - isoapplications.datI% > - create the osi transport templatea" > - create the x25 access template > - create the x25 access classn > M > I have to set up 2 links, and I have make one link up and the others alwayst  > failed. I just don't know why. > M > How can I check if the X25 link is really working in the router? I rememberoI > I can do the command "set host/x25 NUA ...." but I don't know the exact-	 > syntax.h  4 this is going to be one painful exercise via news...  ; for FTAM stuff "we" start with info in ISOAPPLICATIONS.DAT.E >From theret: we have the FTAM alias and then rest of the info giving us   - osi transport template - ssap, psap, tsap, nsap etc.'    4 Assuming those *sap stuff is correct, I'd start with checking the osi transport< template for intended connection. Since you X.25, it must of CONS type and ; we find from OSI transport template the X25 ACCESS TEMPLATE  name, typicallyf with same name.9  9 X25 ACCESS TEMPLATE then tells us amongs other things X25i ACCESS DTE CLASS and something called NSAP mapping.  7 I suspect that relevant X25 ACCESS DTE CLASS is of TYPE. REMOTE and specifies< a X25 connector node. I would check that specified node, say
 LOCAL:.X25GWYt< is correctly registered in LOCAL (or whatever you are using) namespace, e.q.r  7 $ mcr decnet_register show node local:.x25gwy directory 
 local full  < There was problem with GAP protocol going over OSI transport on some versions9 so depending on versions I'd make sure this LOCAL:.X25GWY2 has only NSP tower defined.  0 Check connectivity to the X25 gateway node, e.q.  % 	$ mc ncl show node LOCAL:.X25GWY all?  ; Also check your security. And if you are actually trying too do FTAM test: op from system A via X25 back to A, you will ofcourse need X25 ACCESS FILTERa also.n   _velio   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 07:25:58 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.563109.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)v- Subject: Re: XML Import / Export for OpenVMS?m. Message-ID: <fHPRCLgLQXUy@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  n In article <ex0Y6.172674$I5.49521353@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:  > Here's a new one: XML for RMS. > * >  http://www.accelr8.com/vms/xml4rms.html > L > I don't use the product, I was just made aware of it the other day.  YMMV, > TNSTAAFL, ETC. >   L That should be TANSTAAFL (There *Ain't* No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).  :-)                 ^    -- rO =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxc: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== K Hotel guy (after bed demolition):  That bed goes back to Henry the eighth!! O    Curly: That's nothin'!  We had a bed go back to Sears and Roebuck the fifth!:   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:32:52 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change3 Message-ID: <C0vR$A$jj0e4@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  [ In article <3B30C85E.CDC09E68@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o > J > The "point", if there is one, of so-called Sport-Utility Vehicles has to# > do with the perception of safety    H A perception blown away again by Consumers Union, if only for one model.H The others still tend to look like roll buckets to me, even if they pass the (tires inflated) tests.i  G Contrast this to a 70's something Datsun B210.  A freind rolled one and E was told they had a reputation for it.  Doesn't look like it, though,h: neither did the early 60's Corvair until Ralf wrote it up.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingd   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:47:20 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change3 Message-ID: <HmRbLpuo+XFG@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  Q In article <sb30a92a.061@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:tJ > The argument that is found again and again in the DC area is public vs =K > private transportation. I could link to 1000 Dr. Gridlock articles that =wL > are all the same theme "I drive my SUV 2 hours one way from Reston to DC =K > because I don't want to take a bus to the Metro" OR "I take Metro and I =)L > hate my coworkers who are always late because of traffic". The news last =M > night was nothing but a bunch of people in Maryland whining about wanting =aK > a new bridge because it takes too long to get from Maryland to Virginia =r > (which is true). >   G I face part of that Maryland commute (fortunately not MD to VA) and I'dtH love to ride Metro or light rail, and I could tolerate a bus, but publicF transportation goes the wrong way.  Our public transportation is aimedH at getting people to/from downtown and the suburbs.  A tremendous number= are commuting suburb to suburb now (as in the MD to VA case).e  E It seems almost all the "new" light rail (built in the last couple of E decades) in the US is running at a profit.  I really loved Portland's9G first line when I visited there.  And I do take Metro (heavy rail) whenmF I work downtown (last time, the 95 spring DECUS).  But no one wants toF spend the money to build light rail where we need it, and studies haveE indicated the proposed purple line for the Metro will only take 4% ofo the traffic off the beltway.  G If they would even run a bus in my direction, I'd consider it.  But howvB do I then deal with the need to "commute" between my office and myJ customer's offices and labs in the middle of the day several times a week?  = Oops, gotta rnu now, meeting at my customer's office at 9:30.g  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationr= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:59:33 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change3 Message-ID: <VoNf2ph$oaYt@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  X In article <3B30EC32.E3E2E9DD@ohio.edu>, "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:  ( > stainless steel reaction chamber walls  F Thery're using steel chamber walls?  Doens't that make it difficult to  get the confinement field right?  H At least with a fusion reactor (and I look forward to them), if anythingG goes wrong the whole thing stops faster than you can think about it, nou1 Chernobyl style melt downs like fission reactors.e  F Whatever the chamber is made of, ways can be found to deal with those G as they come off line.  This is a much better option than breathing thee4 stuff the fossil fuel plants are putting in our air.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:08:18 +0100s/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>t  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change7 Message-ID: <009FDDE4.15CABB89.18@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>    > Z > As I understand it, the likely fusion reactions will release a significant part of theirQ > heat as energetic neutrons.  Some of those will decay into ordinary protons andNU > electrons, but many will be captured by nuclei of surrounding apparatus, mostly the<T > stainless steel reaction chamber walls.  Several components of stainless steel areW > rendered radioactive when they absorb a neutron, at least one with a half-life on thesW > order of 10,000 years:  long enough to require careful storage and short enough to beIU > highly radioactive.  Thus, the decommissioning high-level waste problem of a fusion O > reactor is likely to be comparable to that of a conventional fission reactor.l   True, but note the following:s  I 1. You don't have to use common stainless steel. The mooted designs that  L    I've seen have an inner blanket of molten lithium, which when it capturesM    a neutron decays immediately into mildly radioactive Tritium and harmless gG    Helium. You then recycle the generated tritium as fusion fuel (in a  E    D-T reactor). The lithium is a very good neutron screen, and also dK    the primary heat-transport agent. (Like sodium in a fast-breeder fissionkJ    plant, but safer because a fusion core is not intrinsically explosive!)  O    Outside that, can you carefully choose your metal parts to be less dangerous J    when neutron-irradiated. Most light elements become beta-emitters with H    shortish half-lives, many simply capture the neutron and don't becomeI    radioactive at all or have a *very* short half-life.  Also most light sL    elements are non-cumulative in the environment, meaning that a worst-caseG    disaster (such as plant destruction by a large conventional bomb) isy6    far less serious than the same for a fission plant.  M 2. The big problem with a fission reactor isn't the decommissioned hulk, it'stN    the spent fuel full of all sorts of horribly radioactive fission fragments.L    Were the neutron-activated reactor shell the only by-product, I'd support)    fission plants quite enthusiastically.   F 3. Deuterium-Tritium fusion is the easiest goal but the neutrons are aK    nuisance. A harder goal but a cleaner one is Deuterium-Deuterium fusion, ;    which generates harmless helium (alpha-particles) alone.r  O 4. Splitting one Uranium atom liberates about one ten-thousandth as much energy.O    as fusing one D to one T, so a fission plant generates at least 10,000 timeseK    more neutrons for the same energy as a fusion plant would, and thereforevI    nuetron-activated radioactivity in the plant structure is a far biggerc    problem."        >  The spent[ > fuel of a fission reactor is about one cubic meter per year per typical plant, so you can-4 > afford to be very elaborate with your protections.  J But accidents will inevitably happen, and the worst-case is *really* bad. L And you have to keep it safe for longer than human civilisation has existed,L not just for a century or so. Civilisation may fall - in which case leaving C this waste is akin to leaving toddlers with access to a loaded gun.a   > @ > There is a LOT of uranium at or near the surface of the Earth.  H Yes, and we may have to use it, as the lesser of two evils. But I'd far K rather that we didn't, certainly not without a *serious* attempt at fusion a power first.   > V > Every estimate that I have seen for the last forty years has been that "economicallyW > feasible" fusion power is "about thirty years" away.  When an engineer tells you thateY > something will take thirty years of R & D, it really means no one has any idea if it isMT > even actually going to be possible at all, and certainly no one has any idea when.  M Actually it's not that bad now. Physicists at the research centers currently bL believe that *provided* there are no *unknown* types of plasma instabilitiesF to be uncovered at larger scales, one should be able to achieve power E generation simply by scaling up the research designs and solving somed* big but conventional engineering problems.  K This isn't to under-estimate the difficulty. You're looking at an enormous,fK and enormously expensive, engineering challenge, and certainly no guaranteehG of success. But given the stakes (the longterm future of technological nE civilisation may be in the balance) it seems to me that we should be  L prepared to invest in this project to a significant fraction of the defense K budget. (10% of the USA defense budget is $30 *billion* *p.a.* according too today's newspaper).x  eZ > Therefore, I do not see fusion as being likely to be significantly more attractcive than > fission any time soon.  B "Soon" is relative. If they started now and it took 30 years, that would probably be soon enough. j  H That which is never attempted will never succeed. At present there's no J political will to tackle this problem, and too many ill-informed "greens" J who regard all  things "nuclear" as an unmitigated evil based on dogmatic I ignorance. (The medics had to rename Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) to  B Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) because of this type of arrogant  politically-correct stupidity).   @ How sure was Kennedy that the USA could land a man on the moon?    Nigel.  N PS what is the nasty long-lived neutron activation product in stainless steel?K My metallurgy isn't great, but the only long-life radioactive I can find is A Iron-60, which requires double-activation and isn't a high-energyeK particle-emitter. Cobalt-60 is a nasty gamma-emitter but has a much shorterp half-life. n   >  > Nigel Arnot wrote: >  > > >D
 > > [snip] >  > >TG > > A sustainable lifestyle is one that relies only on renewable energyoO > > sources: solar, wind, wave, hydro*, tidal. I'd also allow nuclear fusion ifdK > > we can get it working: the supply of deuterium in the Earth's oceans is R > > inexhaustible for all conceivable human timescales, and the waste radioactivesO > > problem for a fusion plant will be far smaller and shorter-lived than for ao > > fission one. > 
 > > [snip] >  > >. > >         Yours, > >                 Nigel Arnot-, > >                 NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK > >,H > > * and yes, I know that big-dam hydro power is often not sustainable. >  > --D > ==================================================================D > Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerD > piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesD > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:41:25 -0400-- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>1  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change: Message-ID: <193575.3202105285@piccard-mac.cats.ohiou.edu>  6 -On Thursday, June 21, 2001 2:08 PM +0100 Nigel Arnot $ <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> wrote:   [snip]   >5 > Nigel. >>I > PS what is the nasty long-lived neutron activation product in stainlesslL > steel? My metallurgy isn't great, but the only long-life radioactive I canK > find is Iron-60, which requires double-activation and isn't a high-energy M > particle-emitter. Cobalt-60 is a nasty gamma-emitter but has a much shorterT > half-life. >i >e   [snip]  L I do not appear to have made adequate notes of the article I recall reading N some years ago on neutron activation of stainless steel.  My best guess would K be Science magazine in the 1980s, but I am not sure.  I recall it being an WM isotope of some element other than iron, and not necessarily the most common rH isotope of that element.  The initial radioactivity is dominated by the K shorter-life isotopes, of course, but a 10,000 year half-life component is rN likely to dominate for quite a while on that time scale, even if it is a tiny  fraction of the original mix.-  M A partial list of alloying elements can be found for some types of stainless 4 steel at  1 	http://www.engineersedge.com/stainless_steel.htm   6 I think that maybe it was titanium, which is listed in  6 	http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=71169&tocid=0    as being present in some alloys.   				RDP   9 =========================================================m9 Dick Piccard                  Academic Technology Managera9 piccard@ohio.edu                        Computer Services?9 http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/       Ohio University 9 (740) 593-1017                           Athens, OH 45701t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:31:36 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B321358.A14F159A@fsi.net>e   Bob Koehler wrote: > ] > In article <3B30C85E.CDC09E68@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:i > >sL > > The "point", if there is one, of so-called Sport-Utility Vehicles has to$ > > do with the perception of safety > J > A perception blown away again by Consumers Union, if only for one model.  G Well, yes and no. Remember - we're talking about a "passive" situation.eE That is, if an SUV hits another SUV, unless it's in traffic at speed,n@ the roll characteristic is not as important as crash resistance.  C Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, asC; having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.e   -- h David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.S   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:42:25 -0500D1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B3215E1.237577B6@fsi.net>r   Bob Koehler wrote: > [snip]I > I face part of that Maryland commute (fortunately not MD to VA) and I'd J > love to ride Metro or light rail, and I could tolerate a bus, but publicH > transportation goes the wrong way.  Our public transportation is aimedJ > at getting people to/from downtown and the suburbs.  A tremendous number? > are commuting suburb to suburb now (as in the MD to VA case).X  , Well, at least Chicago is not alone in this.   -- a David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged..   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:13:40 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>.2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <f9a3jt0v90n7gep6if7rasfhs61ust69b2@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:34:35 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:)    H >Similarly, do you remember the 1980s song 99 luftballons ? They made anO >english version for release in the USA. (the original german was much better).   A That was an old Eurovision song contest winner and was originallyc@ written in English I believe  but performed in German because of@ contest rules at the time. Nena said she preferred to sing it inC English even though she's German, Fairly sure the UK single releaset1 (No. 1) had both the English and German versions.e  J >As far as WallMart, we had no choice because they took over Woolworths inL >Canada. They did build a few stores in smaller towns, but not in the larger0 >centres since they already have the woolworths.  E Took over Woolworths? Woolworths in the UK seem to be expanding againe> after a couple of decades of contraction. Guess they sold someC international stores. In the UK Wal-Mart have bought the ASDA chain,B but so far don't seem to have been able to dent the rise of Tesco.B Last figures I saw had Tesco as the highest turnover home shoppingC service in the world let alone their bricks and mortar shops (which D now tend to be open 24hrs, sell everything and have instore Internet Cafes).t   >tL >But its isn't just Wallmart, it is also Price Club (Costco), Home Depot etcN >etc. Note that they are not without value. The larger store does have greaterI >variety so the odds are better that you'll find what you're looking for.-   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:09:31 +0000   From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?/ Message-ID: <00256A72.0042CB5D.00@quegw01.btyp>h  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza     Watching sport is boring?.  N If you come over here during the football season I'll take you to a game and I* defy you not to feel excited and involved!   ;^D1   Steve S         E bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) on 06/20/2001 04:41:53 PMa    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)kO From:      bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), 20 June 2001, 4:41 p.m.2  ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?         / In article <00256A71.004F7B46.00@quegw01.btyp>, #  Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes: O |> Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza  |> |> |> |> Tim said; |>P |> "Anyway, must be because you don't play cricket :-). Sure got the climate for |> it."  |>N |> Yes, and we have neither the climate nor the cricket in the UK right now... |> |> ;^D |>I |> Although Fabio, if you have the opportunity take a look at the currentcD |> triangular series in England right now for some exciting cricket.  E Like most sports, watching is boring.  I do, however, miss playing itbE even if all I ever did was play with the neighborhood kids.  And yes,t# I got pretty good at it for a Yank.l   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:15:31 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o2 Subject: re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <R9QB7vAdXwzD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <00256A71.005F26A3.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes: > O > Well, given that the British press don't often talk about American Football Io > think that's unlikely. >   H I thought there was a European "American Football" league with two teams in England.  Has it folded?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingm   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:23:48 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <5OQLrzu0ntLt@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <fbl1jt068a95dt1k3ijlaqg1fk3h5scpk5@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes: > 7 > WalMart is *huge*.  so, they can && do squeeze their t > suppliers for lower prices.n >   G WalMart also carries some of the cheaper stuff.  Shopping for a Sony in E Laramie, WalMart had only one model, bottom of the line.  They're bigoH competitor in town, KMart had no Sonys.  The little guy downtown had theG better Sonys, and the better competing brands. We paid for and got whatr
 we wanted.  E No way could WalMart put the little bakery downtown out of business. -$ A pastie for lunch, what's a pastie?  H You don't compete with WalMart on thier own turf unless you're as big as. them.  You compete in markets they don't want.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationh= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouplE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingE   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 08:25:31 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <1O8DHQPTSAva@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  ` In article <4XjXESHJ3Tnn@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:  R >     Yeah, but I'll bet those other guys gave you "friendly,personalized service"N > and were maybe even located in an "architecturally interesting" building :-)  C Friendly service at WalMart?  In the west, all the time.  Back easto* they're making Sam roll over in his grave.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:54:07 +0000e  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com2 Subject: re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?/ Message-ID: <00256A72.004C5EAD.00@quegw01.btyp>T  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P The two English clubs have indeed folded - nobody went to watch. I'm not sure if there is still a Scottish team.s  G I think the Euro league is still operating, but as I say, without mediap& attention in the UK it's hard to tell.   Steve St        A koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) on 06/21/2001 01:15:31 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) K From:      koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler), 21 June 2001, 1:15 p.m.   ) re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?         J In article <00256A71.005F26A3.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:h >tO > Well, given that the British press don't often talk about American Football Ih > think that's unlikely. >   H I thought there was a European "American Football" league with two teams in England.  Has it folded?a  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationt= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupcE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:52:25 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011052250001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B3108D6.7DD839E1@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:     H > As far as television is concerned, the US media didn't buy the britishN > comedies, they copies them. (remember Three's Company ? that was based on anN > original british series). Who Wants to Be a Millionaire is another example. P > Why can't the USA mainline networks actually show foreign shows, why must themM > be all-american even though many of the shows are copies of foreign shows ?h  I Supply and demand.  Almost nobody wants to watch foreign-language shows. dG Even the English stuff, which is widely available but little watched onaH public TV stations, rarely draws enough viewers to make in on commercialE stations.  Don't blame the stations and the networks.  They show whatt people want to watch.s   O > The 70s were at the tail end of an era where optimism was so high that peoplecN > didn't think that there would ever be recessions, or any limits to what they > could do.u  F Umm, your way-back machine is in need of a tune up, and maybe some newI tyres.  The 70's were hardly an era of optimism.  Almost the whole decadecI was a recession.  Remember Jimmy Carter's famous "days of malaise"?  MostcE folks thought the 70's were the pits.  Maybe it was better in Canada.   P > The problem with WallMart's is that they setup their huge stores in towns thatI > are not necessarily large enough to sustain such a large shop. Once theeL > "local" economy is starved because everyone goes to Wallmart, there aren'tA > many people left to shop at Wallmart except wallmart employees.n  H Actually, Wal-Mart failures are very rare (as are McDonald's failures). H Either store is usually a sign of a growing local economy, not a failing one.  K > As far as WallMart, we had no choice because they took over Woolworths inrM > Canada. They did build a few stores in smaller towns, but not in the largerg1 > centres since they already have the woolworths.   I Woolworth's was a venerable chain, in some ways the Wal-Mart of its day. iH But they forgot how to keep their customers happy, and they went away...  M > But its isn't just Wallmart, it is also Price Club (Costco), Home Depot etctO > etc. Note that they are not without value. The larger store does have greatercJ > variety so the odds are better that you'll find what you're looking for.  I Bingo!  Today's consumers are more demanding than they were a few decadest5 ago. The stores have to keep improving, or they fail.t   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:01:34 -0400o2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011101340001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <1O8DHQPTSAva@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  E > Friendly service at WalMart?  In the west, all the time.  Back eastn, > they're making Sam roll over in his grave.  G Around here (Long Island NY), the Wal-Mart folks aren't very friendly.  H But they're WAY better than most of the other stores.  A little of Sam's$ training must be working, even here.   -- I Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comg   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:25:05 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?8 Message-ID: <rp04jts1gdkhq0b20872hvt8mmni4qnhgt@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:09:31 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:   M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza  >  >n >Watching sport is boring? >oO >If you come over here during the football season I'll take you to a game and I=+ >defy you not to feel excited and involved!d  7 Even if the game was Hamilton Accies v Brechin City? :)i   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:25:59 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9gt3m7$lcd$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   , In article <3B3108D6.7DD839E1@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:hL |> > Re-read what I wrote above.  It is a deliberate decision on the part of7 |> > most other countries to not export their culture.   |> wK |> In all fairness to the rest of the world, it is a LOT harder for foreign?N |> culture to penetrate the USA market than for USA culture to penetrate other |> markets.   D Why??  Things like the INTERNET have pretty much leveled the playingE field, unless you are only interested in how much profit you can makefD from exporting culture.  I on the other hand think that culture is aI value unto itself.  All Germany (for example) would have to do is bitcastiH the stations that provide examples of their own culture rahter than only1 the ones that imitate American lack of culture.  s  F |> Has any of Cline Dion's french songs ever made it big in the USA ?7 |> She has to sign in English when she goes to the USA.d  C That has little to do with culture and more to do with the American C education system being in a shambles. But it is still a market thatlC could be attacked.  Has she (or rather here producers) ever put one B or two French tracks on one of their major CD's??  You never know,; it might be popular if someone down here actually heard it.t   |>  J |> Similarly, do you remember the 1980s song 99 luftballons ? They made anQ |> english version for release in the USA. (the original german was much better).   G Almost all big, popular European singers perform in multiple languages. F Mireille Mathieu, Demis Roussos, Nana Mouskouri, Roger Whitaker (who'sH not really European, but actually British East African).  And then thereG was a song called "How do you do" by a German group called The Windows.5F All the Pop Music shows used to talk about how many differnt languagesE they had recorded this one song in.  By the way, all of these singersR perform in english too.e  F I remember 99 luftballons too.  Interestingly, although I doubt anyoneG could understand it, I have actually heard the german version played onnF one of the local rock stations.  But then, it is probably not any lessG comprehendable than the english language stuff that passes for music one= the same station.  I liked the German version better as well.o   |>  M |> Oh, and lets talk about movies. Many US movies are actual remake of frenchiI |> movies with american actors. La Totale was turned into that movie withcN |> Swartznegger and Jamie Lee Curtis (the husband is a spy but pretends o be a3 |> boring salesman etc, forgot the american name). g  I True Lies.  Hardly a cultural icon, but alright if you like shoot-em-ups.t  P |>                                                 3 men and a baby was a french	 |> movie,e  K Which was dubbed into French and German and played in Europe.  And attendednP by people who think because he's an American (or is he really a closet Canadian?8 hard to keep track anymore) Ted Danson can actually act.  tJ |>       and just recently, you had the "Visitors" (older French movie Les, |> Visiteurs). The list goes on quite a bit.  G Yes, but just like WalMart, the fact thaqt the Europeans themselves arepF willing to pay to go see these movies doesn't do much to further their own movie industry.o   |> eI |> As far as television is concerned, the US media didn't buy the british O |> comedies, they copies them. (remember Three's Company ? that was based on ans |> original british series). g  J Yeah, and Sanford and Sons too.  And All In The Family, I think.  But whatL about Monty Python, with it's cult following.  Or Dad's Army, The Good Life,P To The Manor Born, Benny Hill, Are You Being Served, Are you Being Served Again,M Dr. Who, Logan's Run, and that list goes on too.  Even when they can't really L understand half the jokes americans still watch all of these.  Maybe if someM of the Europeans got their programming on something like Direct TV they could N show people over here that there are alternative cultures. Some of which mightJ even be better.  Most broadcasting in Europe is still government run whichF means profit isn't the driving concern.  I would think that presentingN themselves to the world in a good light would be.  Might go a long way towards curing zenophobia.  O |>                           Who Wants to Be a Millionaire is another example. @  K Well, somehow I doubt that Americans care wether Randy from Leeds gets richoL nearly as much as they care if Bob from Lansdale, PA does.  Which might go aP long way towards explaining why I have never seen a Canadian on the show either.N (Granted, I don;t watch it all that often, but I can not remember ever hearing of a Canadian on it.)i  Q |> Why can't the USA mainline networks actually show foreign shows, why must themdN |> be all-american even though many of the shows are copies of foreign shows ?  G Because American broadcasting is all private and based totally on moneyAI making.  It is not a venue for promoting culture (not even PBS.)  I wouldCK really like to see ARD, ZDF, TROS, BBC (not the one reformated for America,cL real BBC), RTL and others as well.  I don't think the shrinking world shouldM mean a world of less cultural diversity, I think it should mean a world wherecI we are all familiar with each other's culture and gladly share the bettero parts of all of them.u   |> r |> tO |> The X-Files was a good example. The show would not have gained acceptance inaO |> the USA if it had been SET in Vancouver Canada. But because they got lost of O |> help from the locals, they were always able to SET the show to some place intJ |> the USA even though it was SHOT in Vancouver. They went trough a lot ofO |> trouble to put up US licence plates, US Post office mailboxes, flags etc  toa/ |> make it appear to be "somewhere" in the USA.s  O I don't get the problem.  Sergio Leone (an Italian) filmed "westerns" in Spain.-O I don;t remember them ever showing any Moorish architecture in a Clint EastwoodlL film.  And MASH??  It was filmed in California in a place made to look like L Korea.  And you remember the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets"??  Georgia,N not Vietnam.  X-files (which I have never watched) to the best of my knowledgeR is about aliens and U. S. government conspiracy.  Wouldn't make much sense settingP it in Vancouver. The whole plot is rather thin now. Your right, it wouldn't haveM garnered muvh support if it were set in Canada.  On another note, however, atc5 least Vancouver gets the money from production. :-)  m   |> bP |> Of course, with what's his name Duchovny blackmailing the show to move to LosP |> Angeles, I have stopped watching it because it lost its "Vancouver" flair and+ |> is just now yet another show shot in LA.   I Well, that's Hollywood for you.  I must admit, I don't watch a lot of newlK television and most of what I watch may be "American" TV, but it's all madey
 in Canada.   |> gO |> I got to watch a few episodes of an Aussie show shown on a canadian channel. P |> It is a cop show called "Water Rats" and is set in Sydney Harbour. It is veryP |> refreshing to see a show where they don't try to fake their locations. But ofP |> course that show has no hope of ever making it in the USA even though it is a+ |> very good quality show (or so it seems).w  J I don't know, If the show is interesting or exciting, it might win over anK American audience.  But no commercial network is ever going to risk it.  IfeN Australia can't find a way to get it into homes, we'll never get the chance to	 find out.n   |> y |> cN |> > First, that is building a false economy and it won;t work.  It was provenM |> > during the maufactured shortages of the 70's that modern life has become@P |> > so wrapped up with the automobile that no matter what it costs, people will) |> > pay for the gas and use their cars. a |> eP |> The 70s were at the tail end of an era where optimism was so high that peopleO |> didn't think that there would ever be recessions, or any limits to what theycN |> could do. A bit like the mid 1980s when we thought that VMS was invincible. |> cL |> But now, I think that society has begun to mature more and is starting to= |> understand that some changes in lifestyles are necessary. o  M Your joking, right??  I work with the next generation every day.  Maturity isS? not how I would describe the majority of them.  Cynical, maybe.   N |>                                                           Recycling of homeN |> rubbish wasn't started because of "Greenpeace", but because cities realisedQ |> that they were running out of space to dump all the rubbish and needed to findLO |> solutiosn to reduce the amount of rubbish being dumped. Helping this was thexM |> difficulty to increase paper production because you have to fetch the woodn |> ever farther away.   L Bad example.  What passes for recycling in this country is nothing but a wayL to hide more taxes and pad government payrolls with jobs for cousin Joe. TheK horror stories abound.  Even Reader's Digest runs a feature at least once a J year showing what a joke and how counter productive it is.  By the way, atN least down here, there is a glut of newsprint and even when it is collected inN the special (and very expensive to buy and operate) recycling trucks newsprint. is still taken directly to the local landfill.   |>  Q |> Large corporations usually take as visible steps as possible to show that they-J |> are being good to the environment and use recycled paper, cardboard etc |> whenever possible.r  L While behind the scenes they could care less as all that matters is profits.   |>  Q |> More and more, society will find that using "Greenpeace" stuff turns out to be- |> economically better.   J If they ever come up with real methods that are truly intended to help theK environment, maybe, but what passes for ecology today is in many cases moreaE harmful than just doing nothing.  And those who actually try are justaF considered oddballs. (Trust me, I know.  People laugh at my glass milkJ bottles all the time.  And they don't get melted down after each use, they; get cleaned and re-used by the dairy.  That's re-cycling!!)   L |>                      But there are areas where artificial inducements areP |> necessary because by the time industry would take their owwn initiatives, the |> damage would be too great.o  C Except that just like the recent arguments over climate changes thelC government doesn't make policy based on sound scientific principles @ but on political correctness and personal profit.  In many casesH doing more harm than industry and forcing their ideas on their subjects.E There was more real recycling 40 years ago then there is today.  MoresH products came in re-usable packaging and they were actually returned forH re-use.  Today, with all the talk of 're-cycling" and "ecology", we see M more and more products moving away from what is or could have been re-usable.sH (Exampls: Gerbers recent announcemnet that they are moving from glass to plastic packaging.)e   |> tP |> > But it isn't WalMart's fault.  If the community didn't flock to WalMart, it |> > would not have survived.1 |> 1Q |> The problem with WallMart's is that they setup their huge stores in towns thatsJ |> are not necessarily large enough to sustain such a large shop. Once theA |> "local" economy is starved because everyone goes to Wallmart, c  O There, you said it.  "everyone goes to Wallmart"  So who's fault is it really?? O WalMart or the "everyone" who goes there while abandoning the "local" economy??   M |>                                                               there aren'tlB |> many people left to shop at Wallmart except wallmart employees. |> -M |> > But, according to you, there is no resistance.  Canadians have gleefully N |> > run to the new WalMArt the second it opened abandoning that shop downtown8 |> > that was run by their neighbor for all those years. |> rL |> As far as WallMart, we had no choice because they took over Woolworths inN |> Canada. They did build a few stores in smaller towns, but not in the larger2 |> centres since they already have the woolworths.  L But Woolworth's (WoolCo) was just another big out of town business.  Are youM saying the samll shops were already gone, driven out by WoolCo??  Or had theyrM lasted till the WalMart takeover??  In either case, it wasn't WalMart's faultyL that local people chose to abandon local businesses in favor of the big guy.   |> dN |> But its isn't just Wallmart, it is also Price Club (Costco), Home Depot etcP |> etc. Note that they are not without value. The larger store does have greaterK |> variety so the odds are better that you'll find what you're looking for.   L But, like I said, they are the symptom and not the disease.  If people foundM value in shopping in small downtown stores, rubbing elbows with their friendsaO and neighbors, these stores would survive and the big ones would not.  But thatoO quaint old Americana (if you will) is no longer the culture we wish to present.wM The media has convinced everybody that they need to be more sophisticated and O that goes not only for both sides of our border, but it is infecting Europe andoL the rest of the world as well.  Maybe its just another sign of how much of aP dinosaur I really am.  I like quaint European culture, I drive a classic BritishC Sports Car and I spend my spare time working with VAX and PDP-11's.s   bill   -- MJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:40:04 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B321554.DF882962@fsi.net>h   Alan Greig wrote:  > . > On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:34:35 -0400, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e > J > >Similarly, do you remember the 1980s song 99 luftballons ? They made anQ > >english version for release in the USA. (the original german was much better).o > C > That was an old Eurovision song contest winner and was originally B > written in English I believe  but performed in German because ofB > contest rules at the time. Nena said she preferred to sing it inE > English even though she's German, Fairly sure the UK single releasea3 > (No. 1) had both the English and German versions.o  E I recall a record from the 70's by a group called Mocedades. Side "A" H was "Eres Tu" in Spanish and Side "B" was "Touch the Wind" in English. IF don't know much Spanish, but I do know that "It Is You" and "Touch the Wind" are only remote related.   -- - David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems, http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:40:13 +0000   From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?/ Message-ID: <00256A72.005B9436.00@quegw01.btyp>i  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    J I think I'd rather Cally Thistle - the best situated club in the country I think!   Steve S<        9 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> on 06/21/2001 02:25:05 PMt    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)2C From:      Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>, 21 June 2001, 2:25 p.m.   ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?         E On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:09:31 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:   M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazaf >  >i >Watching sport is boring? >hO >If you come over here during the football season I'll take you to a game and I-+ >defy you not to feel excited and involved!   7 Even if the game was Hamilton Accies v Brechin City? :):   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 09:04:39 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <7koB6M4YHQ4f@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  M In article <rdeininger-2106011052250001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>, n8     rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > K > Supply and demand.  Almost nobody wants to watch foreign-language shows. eI > Even the English stuff, which is widely available but little watched on J > public TV stations, rarely draws enough viewers to make in on commercial > stations.   J    I'm often amazed that the US news media, when showing an interview withF a person from another English speaking country ( UK, Australia ) feelsH they have to include subtitles so the audience will know what the personG is saying. If the networks feel ( perhaps correctly ) that the audiencemH in incapable of deciphering these mild variations in pronuniciation it'sJ not surprising they don't want to show entertainment from those countries.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:14:19 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9gt6gr$mnp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>n  8 In article <4v72jtsdouhj9dqmqeej4cob8nd5lrbsrk@4ax.com>,"  LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes:? |> On 20 Jun 2001 19:00:49 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billu |> Gunshannon) wrote:g |>H |> >|> Walmart is also seriously anti-union, and partial to sweat-shops. |> >G |> >Some people don't think "anti-union" is a four letter word. And thesG |> >term "sweat-shops" has been done to death.  The conditions are mostoE |> >likely the worst in China and yet they have "most favored nation"s? |> >status.  Oh, yeah, I think they are also "anti-union".  :-)o |> a
 |> I dunno.  a |> T5 |> unions provide a counter-balance to mgmt excess.  t |> (and vice versa, to be fair)y  & It's a rather one-sided arrangements.    |> o; |> 'sweat-shop' is over-used, but fact is Walmart suppliersu7 |> have to make cuts somewhere.  can bet it won't come o( |> out of the suppliers' mgmt salaries.   D If your saying the products sold in WalMart are made in sweat-shops,@ they sell exactly the same products as K-mart, Ames, Hills, and > every other store in town.  And the term sweat-shop is usuallyC bandied about by people looking at the world through American eyes.oA $1.00 an hour isn't slave wages when you can buy a weeks worth ofi> food for $2.00.  On the other hand, minimum wage in the BostonA area is and no one is calling the McDonalds up there sweat-shops.e   |> e |> to parphrase your sig.  |> tA |>   Capitalism:   it's where the boss decides what's for dinner.l  @ Capitalists aren't necessarily heartless, greedy bastards.  They> built the contries with the highest standards of living in the@ world.  without them, we would all still be living in log cabinsA with dirt floors and growing just enough food to live from day tor; day.  Not a life I would choose over what I currently have.s   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   v   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:25:37 +0000 (UTC)t1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis) 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  + In article <9gt6gr$mnp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,o- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote:h  6 >|> unions provide a counter-balance to mgmt excess.    >|> (and vice versa, to be fair) >B' >It's a rather one-sided arrangements. e  3 How's that?  The existence of a union in a place oft7 employment is a matter of contract law.  A contract nota8 freely entered into is invalid.  All valid contracts are  based on the parity of actors.    . >On the other hand, minimum wage in the BostonB >area is and no one is calling the McDonalds up there sweat-shops.  E Pick up a copy of Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation."  Among other things A you'll learn is the tidbit that working at a McDonalds is 9x moreuG dangerous than being a policeman.  Average tenure at a McDonalds is nowe down to less than 6 months.s  D >They built the contries with the highest standards of living in the >world.e  D Not true.  There are approximately eight countries in the world that? enjoy higher standards of living than those found in the UnitedbC States (as measured by such things as total factor productivty, thenJ ratio of leisure to work time, health, longevity, income disparity, etc.).  K The majority of those countries are, like the #1 country Belgium, socialist.I economies.  Belgium's labor productivity, for example, is far higher thanh that of the United States.  9 >without them, we would all still be living in log cabinssB >with dirt floors and growing just enough food to live from day to >day.e  K You mean like the current super-capitalist laissez-faire economy of Russia?   6 >Not a life I would choose over what I currently have.    Bill, you live in Scranton!  :-)   greg -- w Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.edut   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:45:35 -0400u2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011245350001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  F In article <7koB6M4YHQ4f@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:  J >  I'm often amazed that the US news media, when showing an interview withH > a person from another English speaking country ( UK, Australia ) feelsJ > they have to include subtitles so the audience will know what the person > is saying.  F They really do that?  I've never seen it.  But I haven't been watching much TV for several years.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:55:30 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011255310001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  0 In article <9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>,2 greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis) wrote:   5 > How's that?  The existence of a union in a place ofr9 > employment is a matter of contract law.  A contract not : > freely entered into is invalid.  All valid contracts are" > based on the parity of actors.    H Except in states where it is legal for a union and an employer to make aD contract that only allows for union workers.  That has the effect ofA forcing folks to join the union, perhaps against their will, as aoB condition of employment.  The union gets a portion of the worker'sF earnings, and he has essentially nothing to say about how the money isI spent.  The contract between the employer and the employee is not "freely H entered into", but there's special provision in the law to make it valid anyway.r     0 > >On the other hand, minimum wage in the BostonD > >area is and no one is calling the McDonalds up there sweat-shops. > G > Pick up a copy of Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation."  Among other thingssC > you'll learn is the tidbit that working at a McDonalds is 9x more # > dangerous than being a policeman.c  J That's sounds pretty unbelieveable.  I don't know Schlosser, or "Fast FoodD Nation", but it sounds like an axe is being ground.  I've seen listsH ranking jobs by hazard level, and fast food of any kind never showed up.  E Of course, if one defines "dangerous" appropriately, one can get just I about any ranking one wants.  I tend to think of "danger" along the linesoE of dead or seriously injured.  It is clear that policemen are in moredB "danger" than fry-folks.  There may be a lot more _reported_ minorD injuries per capita at McDonalds, but I don't call that "dangerous".  & > Average tenure at a McDonalds is now > down to less than 6 months.k  I Which probably has little or nothing to do with danger, or pay.  A lot of @ McDonalds folks are young, part time, and not "career-oriented".   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:04:02 -0700 * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?4 Message-ID: <iQpY6.4318$Ib.465718@news1.primary.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:7koB6M4YHQ4f@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...G >    I'm often amazed that the US news media, when showing an interviews withH > a person from another English speaking country ( UK, Australia ) feelsC > they have to include subtitles so the audience will know what thee person@ > is saying. If the networks feel ( perhaps correctly ) that the audienceE > in incapable of deciphering these mild variations in pronuniciationl it'sA > not surprising they don't want to show entertainment from thosei
 countries. >tF The variation may be mild to you, but I have a hard time understandingG West Indies english dialect and appreciate some subtitle help.  I don'tnH always understand someone with a Newfie accent either, but I am given toD understand from relatives in Canada that's a common problem anywhere outside Newfoundland.   G The BBC now has a cable channel in the US where they recycle old shows.tA Fact is, some of the shows *are* hard to understand.  I watched a,G mini-series called "Peacekeepers" recently, and while I got most of it,u2 there were times the dialog sounded like mumbling.  E As for the US news media, remember that most reporters now are barely @ literate and poorly educated in comparison to days gone by.  The4 subtitles are there because *they* can't understand.  B The BBC isn't exempt from criticism either.  The way Nick WitchellC mangled foreign names turned the Breakfast News into a comedy show.j    Jack Peacocko   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:11:57 -0700 * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?4 Message-ID: <JXpY6.4319$Ib.465729@news1.primary.net>  > "Gregory Travis" <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message* news:9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu...C > The majority of those countries are, like the #1 country Belgium, 	 socialisthF > economies.  Belgium's labor productivity, for example, is far higher than > that of the United States. >eH Belgium????  Okay, is this a joke?  What are the other countries on this list?h  H I for one would like to know the ratio of immigration between the US and> Belgium.  How many US citizens seek a better life in Brussels?  H If productivity is so high, then no doubt Chairman Bill will buy out L &E H and move the Redmond Borg to Belgium.  Maybe that's how VMS will beaE saved, Compaq will buy L & H and convert it into OpenVMS Engineering.s How's your Flemish, Hoff?a    Jack Peacockt   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:11:59 +0000 (UTC)M1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9gt9sv$8ea$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  L In article <rdeininger-2106011255310001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>,3 Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote: 1 >In article <9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>,s3 >greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis) wrote:i > 6 >> How's that?  The existence of a union in a place of: >> employment is a matter of contract law.  A contract not; >> freely entered into is invalid.  All valid contracts are># >> based on the parity of actors.    >eI >Except in states where it is legal for a union and an employer to make atE >contract that only allows for union workers.  That has the effect ofdB >forcing folks to join the union, perhaps against their will, as a >condition of employment.r  H No one is forced to work.  A condition of joining a union as part of theG requirements for working at place Y is no different from a condition tonJ travel on business, or to join the company's health plan, in order to meet( the requirements of working for place Y.  # Employment is an at-will condition.t  ) >The union gets a portion of the worker'sbG >earnings, and he has essentially nothing to say about how the money isa >spent.s  J So what?  The company gets a portion of the worker's earnings too.  You'veJ heard of revenue per employee, haven't you?  Corporations do not generally+ hire people in order to lose money on them.e  B >The contract between the employer and the employee is not "freelyI >entered into", but there's special provision in the law to make it valid  >anyway.  C Unless a gun is being held to someone's head forcing them to join a ; unionized firm then that employment is freely entered into.t  K >That's sounds pretty unbelieveable.  I don't know Schlosser, or "Fast FooduE >Nation", but it sounds like an axe is being ground.  I've seen lists I >ranking jobs by hazard level, and fast food of any kind never showed up.e  J I'm not talking about being scalded by the fry machine.  I'm talking about being shot during a robbery.  F >Of course, if one defines "dangerous" appropriately, one can get justJ >about any ranking one wants.  I tend to think of "danger" along the linesF >of dead or seriously injured.  It is clear that policemen are in moreC >"danger" than fry-folks.  There may be a lot more _reported_ minor-E >injuries per capita at McDonalds, but I don't call that "dangerous".   K Nope.  You're more likely to become DEAD or >SERIOUSLY< injured as a resultyG of working at a fast-food joint than you are walking the beat.  I'm not-G sure you appreciate how many times these places are targeted for crime.hF Much of that has to do with their siting - often at crime magnets such as highway turnoffs.  ' >> Average tenure at a McDonalds is nowg >> down to less than 6 months. > J >Which probably has little or nothing to do with danger, or pay.  A lot ofA >McDonalds folks are young, part time, and not "career-oriented".   I McDonalds, like most fast-food places, is actively truing to increase itsbM turnover rate as high turnover is one of the best wage depressants available.lL For instance, they're now replacing words, etc. on their cash registers withG simple pictures of the items in question.  This allows them to not evenvE require literacy on the part of their workers.  And it makes for damnaE cheap workers who understand and virtually 100% of the people walking7? past the place everyday could do their job within five minutes.i   greg -- B Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.eduu   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:16:53 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis)A2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9gta65$8es$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  4 In article <JXpY6.4319$Ib.465729@news1.primary.net>,) Jack Peacock <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:o? >"Gregory Travis" <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in messagen+ >news:9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu...aD >> The majority of those countries are, like the #1 country Belgium,
 >socialistG >> economies.  Belgium's labor productivity, for example, is far higher  >than  >> that of the United States.g >>I >Belgium????  Okay, is this a joke?  What are the other countries on thisr >list?  7 Germany, France, Sweden, etc.  All nominally socialist.C  I >I for one would like to know the ratio of immigration between the US and ? >Belgium.  How many US citizens seek a better life in Brussels?   F Can't do it.  Belgian law is pretty restrictive regarding immigration.   greg --   Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.edut   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:52:19 -0500y1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>S2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B323453.C1842F20@fsi.net>I   Gregory Travis wrote:n > 6 > In article <JXpY6.4319$Ib.465729@news1.primary.net>,+ > Jack Peacock <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:nA > >"Gregory Travis" <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message - > >news:9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu...2F > >> The majority of those countries are, like the #1 country Belgium, > >socialistI > >> economies.  Belgium's labor productivity, for example, is far higher. > >than  > >> that of the United States.2 > >>K > >Belgium????  Okay, is this a joke?  What are the other countries on this  > >list?  D I've been to Belgium - still have some currency. Some members of theH tour group got caught behind police lines during the labor problems back in June-ish of '89.   F I wasn't particularly impressed with Bruxxelles - it seemed about on aC par with those areas of England I saw back in '84: London, Andover,o Winchester.v  9 > Germany, France, Sweden, etc.  All nominally socialist.,  1 My impressions are mistaken then. I'd heard/read:   G In terms of their economy, Germany is now about where the U.S. was backe in the early 80's.  D France is a bit overcrowded, but not like either China or Japan - or California, for that matter.  E I don't hear much about Sweden. It seems the only country on the list-7 that would appear even remotely preferable to the U.S. T  ? Wonder if Swedish immigration laws are as strict as they are in[
 Austria...  K > >I for one would like to know the ratio of immigration between the US andtA > >Belgium.  How many US citizens seek a better life in Brussels?m > H > Can't do it.  Belgian law is pretty restrictive regarding immigration.  : Maybe our Congress and INS should take a cue from Belgium.   -- a David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.>   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 13:50:09 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <9gtc4h$7u7$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <9gt761$8af$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>,2 Gregory Travis <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:, >In article <9gt6gr$mnp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,. >Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: > 7 >>|> unions provide a counter-balance to mgmt excess.  n! >>|> (and vice versa, to be fair)s >>( >>It's a rather one-sided arrangements.  >b4 >How's that?  The existence of a union in a place of8 >employment is a matter of contract law.  A contract not9 >freely entered into is invalid.  All valid contracts arep! >based on the parity of actors.  l >:  A Parity.  Yes, parity would be nice.  Why is it that Unions enjoy nB a protected right to collude to set prices where employers do not?   > [snip] >s: >>without them, we would all still be living in log cabinsC >>with dirt floors and growing just enough food to live from day to  >>day. > L >You mean like the current super-capitalist laissez-faire economy of Russia? >s  C Oh right!  Where the Government colludes with big business at everys) turn?  That's what you call laisez-faire?    > [snip] >e >gregg >--  >Gregory Travis ' >Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML)n
 >812-855-5091  >gtravis@indiana.edu   -Jordan Henderson- jordan@greenapple.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:58:44 -0500d1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?' Message-ID: <3B3235D4.D304B6E5@fsi.net>g   Jack Peacock wrote:. > [snip]D > The BBC isn't exempt from criticism either.  The way Nick WitchellE > mangled foreign names turned the Breakfast News into a comedy show.   E You wouldn't want to hear some of the ways people mangle my surname - C even when they know some Polish! (Yes, "Dachtera" is Polish! See mynE sister's web site, http://www.thefoxworthys.com/mary_tree_intro.htm).a   -- t David J. Dachtera. dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/y  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.t   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.342 ************************