1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 22 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 343       Contents:: Re: 26 June OpenVMS DiamondForum postponed - San Jose, CA.) 64-bit CPU performance, including Itanium - Re: 64-bit CPU performance, including Itanium P Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More  CompetitiveP Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a SuddeP Re: Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a SP Re: Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a S Re: Another reward offer Re: Another reward offer" Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives& Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives5 Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup " RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS" RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS" Re: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation" Re: connect to XServer over decnet0 Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001! Re: Intrusion & Password Checking ! Re: Intrusion & Password Checking 1 Re: Kernel Stack Not Valid (was: Odd System Halt)  LOCKMGRERR crashes Re: LOCKMGRERR crashes Logical name doubt Re: Logical name doubt Re: Logical name doubt Re: Logical name doubt Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters RE: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Long distance VMS clusters Re: Mozilla 0.9.1  Re: OpenVMS Applications OpenVMS by ....  Re: OpenVMS by ....  Re: OpenVMS by ....  Re: OpenVMS by ....  Re: openvms on DEC XL3002 Re: Oracle hypes new clustering on Intel and Linux2 RE: Oracle hypes new clustering on Intel and LinuxI Re: OT answering, was RE: How to see who causes execessive loginfailures.  Re: Printing NT to VMS Re: Raid Array 3000 + 2 ES40s  Regarding Partnership < Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyG Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy K Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS P Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS VP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS VP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVM+ Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ??? + Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ??? " Re: UCX problem - printing? other?
 Unix Crypt RE: Unix Crypt Re: Unix Crypt Re: Unix Crypt Re: Unix Crypt VMS applications on the web?  Re: VMS applications on the web?= VMS Software support access in queue with the wintel weenies?  X emulation over a PC  Re: X emulation over a PC  Re: X emulation over a PC $ Re: XML Import / Export for OpenVMS? Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:31:02 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>C Subject: Re: 26 June OpenVMS DiamondForum postponed - San Jose, CA. < Message-ID: <WsvY6.3046$wU6.3388861@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  0 "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message) news:tj1nu58hvi6c4c@news.supernews.com... . > <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com> wrote in message4 > news:9ki1jtgvh2jo16kto8lkkklub5u88qtes4@4ax.com...H > > On 20 Jun 2001 12:43:29 GMT, "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>
 > > wrote: > > E > > >I was informed yesterday by Compaq that the OpenVMS DiamondForum  > scheduled D > > >for San Jose, CA on 26 June will be postponed "Due to unforseenJ > > >circumstances..."  I am intrigued by Terry Shannon's cryptic comments > about C > > >something bring down in Houston and this "rescheduling" of the  > DiamondForum. 5 > > >Rick Marcello was to be one of the key speakers.  > > ? > > from what I understand, CPQ is trying to squeeze every last @ > > drop of blood out of a stone, in order to meet Wall Street's* > > "whisper" numbers for this quarter ... > > 7 > > ergo, they probably canceled all travel, except for  > > the CEO's and the like.  > > < > > that said, you'd have to wonder if Marcello was affected1 > > by the lastest managment chair shuffling ....  > >  > K > Rich was promoted in the latest chair shuffling.  Hopefully, the "180 day E > transformation" that Terry is whispering about won't be 6 months of  musical 	 > chairs!  >   L It most definitely will not be six months of Musical Chairs. But there are aL lot of senior management meetings, etc, going on and I wouldn't be surprised* if Rich will be involved in some of these.  H I wouldn't worry about the postponement of the Forum. I suspect the next. news we hear out of VMSland will be good news.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:08:53 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)2 Subject: 64-bit CPU performance, including Itanium= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106211508.68bd6bb3@posting.google.com>   B In light of recent postings in this forum, I found it particularlyF interesting to read Paul DeMone's recent (June 11) update of his piece "The Battle in 64 bit Land" at: ? http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT061101221315   F Since Itanium has finally been released, it is now possible to compare) its performance with that of other chips.   ? A particularly amusing quote: "There are a remarkable number of A similarities between Sun Microsystems today and Digital Equipment ; Corporation (DEC) in the second half of the 1980&#8217;s. "    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:06:28 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: 64-bit CPU performance, including Itanium< Message-ID: <8vzY6.3102$wU6.3520536@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  5 "Keith Parris" <kparris@my-deja.com> wrote in message 7 news:cb85fed2.0106211508.68bd6bb3@posting.google.com... D > In light of recent postings in this forum, I found it particularlyH > interesting to read Paul DeMone's recent (June 11) update of his piece! > "The Battle in 64 bit Land" at: A > http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT061101221315  > H > Since Itanium has finally been released, it is now possible to compare+ > its performance with that of other chips.  > A > A particularly amusing quote: "There are a remarkable number of C > similarities between Sun Microsystems today and Digital Equipment = > Corporation (DEC) in the second half of the 1980&#8217;s. "   J Indeed there are. And as for Itanium, it's not bad at all for a Release 1.J Ran into an Intel developer (former Alpha/PRISM guy, Dileep Bhandarkar) inH San Jose last weekend. We had an interesting chat. I would not underrate McKinley...    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:47:14 GMT , From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth)Y Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More  Competitive 1 Message-ID: <slrn9j55ci.2k6.jra@dorothy.msas.net>   C *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, David J. Dachtera turned     to Hawkeye and me and said:C > What's that phrase I've seen here - "rectal/cranial inversion" or  > something like that?  - I usually spell it "recto-cranial inversion".    Cheers,  -- jra --  N Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra@baylink.com) Member of the Technical Staff     Baylink / The Suncoast Freenet         The Things I Think N Tampa Bay, Florida        http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 804 5015  L    OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 18:24:28 -07003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> Y Subject: Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudde 3 Message-ID: <qhg0ctz4qb.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote:C > What's that phrase I've seen here - "rectal/cranial inversion" or  > something like that?   Jay R. Ashworth wrote:/ > I usually spell it "recto-cranial inversion".   , A friend used to call it "cranial rectosis".   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:29:26 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a S ' Message-ID: <3B32BB96.1747CD95@fsi.net>    Eric Smith wrote:  >  > David J. Dachtera wrote:E > > What's that phrase I've seen here - "rectal/cranial inversion" or  > > something like that? >  > Jay R. Ashworth wrote:1 > > I usually spell it "recto-cranial inversion".  > . > A friend used to call it "cranial rectosis".   OOOHHH!!! I LIKE THAT!!!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:55:43 GMT , From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth)Y Subject: Re: Anatomical irregularities (was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a S 1 Message-ID: <slrn9j5juh.2vv.jra@dorothy.msas.net>   < *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Eric Smith turned    to Hawkeye and me and said: > David J. Dachtera wrote:E > > What's that phrase I've seen here - "rectal/cranial inversion" or  > > something like that? >  > Jay R. Ashworth wrote:1 > > I usually spell it "recto-cranial inversion".  > . > A friend used to call it "cranial rectosis".  9 And then there's Recto-cenotial Differentiation Disorder.    Cheers, * -- jr 'a cenote is a hole in the ground' a --  N Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra@baylink.com) Member of the Technical Staff     Baylink / The Suncoast Freenet         The Things I Think N Tampa Bay, Florida        http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 804 5015  L    OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:21:02 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> ! Subject: Re: Another reward offer / Message-ID: <tj4enr9q87rv8e@news.supernews.com>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B314250.FF3329C8@fsi.net... G > Y'know, just cuz I'm outta work right now doesn't mean I'm a welcher.  >  > My offer is still good:  > I > The first person who can double OpenVMS's marketshare before the end of F > this year, WITHOUT advertising or marketing and WITHOUT lowering the$ > price gets $1,000 US cash from me. >   . Anyone that can do that has no need for money.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:42:25 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ! Subject: Re: Another reward offer ' Message-ID: <3B32BEA1.9D887CB6@fsi.net>    John Vottero wrote:  > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3B314250.FF3329C8@fsi.net... I > > Y'know, just cuz I'm outta work right now doesn't mean I'm a welcher.  > >  > > My offer is still good:  > > K > > The first person who can double OpenVMS's marketshare before the end of H > > this year, WITHOUT advertising or marketing and WITHOUT lowering the& > > price gets $1,000 US cash from me. > >  > 0 > Anyone that can do that has no need for money.  G Exactly my point - it would take Divine Intervention, and God (whatever * you call your Deity) has no need of money. --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  ( Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:53 +0100 (BST)- From: dmacdonald@cix.co.uk (Duncan Macdonald) + Subject: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives C Message-ID: <memo.20010621225330.27709A@dmacdonald.compulink.co.uk>   9 I found out the hard way that the speed of backup to and  8 from TZ89 tape drives is heavily affected by the backup = block size. Going from the default block size (8192 for tape  9 save sets) to a block size of 24576 reduced the time for  = backups and restores by well over 50% (9 hours down to under  8 4 hours). This was on an Alphastation 500 with VMS 7.2 .< If any of you are having problems with the time taken to do = backups, it may be worthwhile to see what block size you are  ; using on tape and increasing it if you are still using the   default.= (The speedup percentage was almost the same on a disk with a  ; few huge files and on another disk with thousands of small  6 files. All backups and restores were full image - not  incremental.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:00:17 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)/ Subject: Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011900170001@user-2iveav3.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <memo.20010621225330.27709A@dmacdonald.compulink.co.uk>, ( zzzdmacdonaldxxxx@cixnospam.co.uk wrote:  ; > I found out the hard way that the speed of backup to and  : > from TZ89 tape drives is heavily affected by the backup ? > block size. Going from the default block size (8192 for tape  ; > save sets) to a block size of 24576 reduced the time for  ? > backups and restores by well over 50% (9 hours down to under  : > 4 hours). This was on an Alphastation 500 with VMS 7.2 .> > If any of you are having problems with the time taken to do ? > backups, it may be worthwhile to see what block size you are  = > using on tape and increasing it if you are still using the  
 > default.? > (The speedup percentage was almost the same on a disk with a  = > few huge files and on another disk with thousands of small  8 > files. All backups and restores were full image - not  > incremental.)   E Yes, bigger block size helps.  I suggest 32256, the biggest size that E works for both disk and tape save sets.  You can go almost to 64kB on  tape, but you can't H copy the resulting save sets to disk in an emergency.  (Save Set Manager9 can tranfer such save sets, re-blocking them as it does.)   I If you want faster backups, you should also make a special backup account F and adjust its quotas as described in the manual.  Tune the account toD match the available resources on the machine that runs the backups. @ Increase the quotas together as the manual says.  It makes a big= difference in speed, especially for whole-disk image backups.u   -- p Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:49:17 +0200c, From: "Nico van der Boom" <njvdboom@caiw.nl>> Subject: Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup6 Message-ID: <3b324f4f$0$16503$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>  G "Simon Clubley" <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> wrote ine7 message news:yt5Y6.2839$yp1.85446@www.newsranger.com...E+ > On 19 Jun 2001 10:34:47 -0700, in article ! <RCnbKg1Ec7p6@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>,  > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: <snip>  @ > [For the benefit of newcomers to DEC/CPQ: DEC, as part of your maintainenceL > contract, used to supply a thick A4 size ring binder containing reports onG > everything that happened at your site. The reports were filled out ato everyoL > visit (including routine PM visits). Are these still in use on high end or > old machine sites ?] >   6 The compaq guys use an electronic version this binder.J This can be access via the internet and should be located on a compaq site
 in france.  * I haven't seen a FCO in the last 6 years..     --   CU,o Nico van der Boome >===> http://www.vanderboom.com ( >===> http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~njvdboom   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:14:15 -0400s> From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>+ Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMStM Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D0160214E@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>   1 Sorry, I guess it only works against the disk or n% tape devices, and not the controller.r  1 I know the KZPBA-CB controller from Compaq comes a0 with a floppy diskette that allows one to set a . lot of things on the controller.  But I don't / know if it reports what you are looking for, or - if every Compaq controller ships with such a w floppy diskette.  . Is the KZPBA-CB the controller of concern?  Or was that just an example?a   :( jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadway5 Albany, NY  12204a USAo 518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.come     > -----Original Message-----+ > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br . > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]' > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 1:33 PMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comf- > Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSy >  > 
 > I tried: >   > $ mcr []SCSI_INFO PKB0:  x.lis >  > buth >  > $ type x.lis >  > $! > $! SCSI_INFO V1A1r > $!? > $!      Copyright (c) 1995 by DIGITAL Equipment Corporation, f > Maynard, Mass.; > $!      All Rights Reserved. Unpublished rights reserved d > under the copyrighte$ > $!      laws of the United States. > $!( > $! Invoked on Thu Jun 21 14:26:39 2001 > $! > $! Issuing INQUIRY QIOW  > $!- > $!   QIO status of 244 causing program exitt > $! > $m >  >  >  > H > "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com> em 21/06/2001
 > 13:45:28 >  >  > 0 >       "'fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br'" ' > <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>r >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc >  >  > - > Assunto: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSc >  > > > Perhaps SCSI_INFO.EXE in the SYS$ETC directory might reveal. >  > :) jck > John Koska > Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -$ >   A Member of the LexisNexis Group > 1275 Broadways > Albany, NY  12204  > USAt > 518-487-3255 > John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.comn > , > "I post personal opinion only, and all the, > disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That* > includes, I speak for myself only and my, > views in no way represent my employer(s)." >  > > -----Original Message------ > > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra0 > > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]* > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 12:05 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComC+ > > Subject: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMS  > >C > >e > > Serious work:C > >e> > > Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN)= > > to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controllerD > > (ex. KZPBA-CB)6 > > is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ? > >o > > Regardsu > >  > > FC > >e >  >  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:59:12 -0300t) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brt+ Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSvL Message-ID: <OFA5BDA4E4.BD3C21E6-ON03256A72.00682ED8@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   John  6 Yes it is the KZPBA-CB the controller I want to check.? I feel there is a lack of built-in utilities to monitor devicesn-  under any operating system, not only OpenVMSD   Regards    FC        F "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com> em 21/06/2001 15:14:15  J Favor responder a "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.      + Assunto: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSk    0 Sorry, I guess it only works against the disk or% tape devices, and not the controller..  0 I know the KZPBA-CB controller from Compaq comes/ with a floppy diskette that allows one to set ae- lot of things on the controller.  But I don'te/ know if it reports what you are looking for, or., if every Compaq controller ships with such a floppy diskette.  . Is the KZPBA-CB the controller of concern?  Or was that just an example?m   :( jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 BroadwayP Albany, NY  12204e USAe 518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com      > -----Original Message-----+ > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br . > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]' > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 1:33 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comv- > Subject: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSe >s >t
 > I tried: >r  > $ mcr []SCSI_INFO PKB0:  x.lis >s > bute >n > $ type x.lis >h > $! > $! SCSI_INFO V1A18 > $!> > $!      Copyright (c) 1995 by DIGITAL Equipment Corporation, > Maynard, Mass.: > $!      All Rights Reserved. Unpublished rights reserved > under the copyrightt$ > $!      laws of the United States. > $!( > $! Invoked on Thu Jun 21 14:26:39 2001 > $! > $! Issuing INQUIRY QIOW  > $!- > $!   QIO status of 244 causing program exitm > $! > $F >m >  >p > H > "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com> em 21/06/2001
 > 13:45:28 >- >  >e/ >       "'fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br'"j' > <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >s >- > - > Assunto: RE: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSm >  >n> > Perhaps SCSI_INFO.EXE in the SYS$ETC directory might reveal. >n > :) jck > John Koska > Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -$ >   A Member of the LexisNexis Group > 1275 Broadwayw > Albany, NY  12204p > USA? > 518-487-3255 > John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com  >a, > "I post personal opinion only, and all the, > disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That* > includes, I speak for myself only and my, > views in no way represent my employer(s)." >n > > -----Original Message------ > > From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brf0 > > [mailto:fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br]* > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 12:05 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<+ > > Subject: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSi > >  > >r > > Serious work:a > > > > > Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN)= > > to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controller8 > > (ex. KZPBA-CB)6 > > is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ? > >n > > RegardsI > >d > > FC > >r >  >n >e >n >o >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:20:36 -0400i* From: "Paul A. Jacobi" <nospan@nospam.com>+ Subject: Re: Check SCSI speed under OpenVMSi. Message-ID: <pEtY6.3$rc5.258@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF81C6F6E7.567473FF-ON03256A72.0058195B@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... > Serious work:a >i< > Is there an OpenVMS  command ( inside ANALYZE  or  SYSMAN)J > to discover in what speed rate a specific SCSI controller (ex. KZPBA-CB)4 > is connected to a disk array (from 5 to 40 MB/s) ?  B Unfortuantely, I know of now easy way to determine SCSI bus speed,J particularly because speed negotiation on SCSI can now be done per target.H We acknowledge that this is a problem, but I can't say when would have aI solution.  I will continue to make this issue visible, so we don't forgetj	 about it.f       Paul A. Jacobi Compaq Computer Corporationo! OpenVMS Systems Group, ZKO3-4/U14  110 Spitbrook Road Nashua, NH 03062-2698R Email: Paul.Jacobi@compaq.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:15:43 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation , Message-ID: <3B3247DD.F3772FD0@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o7 > And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting!y    N OK, when will the masses (us) realise that something is happening ? Or are theE chances so subtle that we won't notice it until you reveal it to us ?   J Is this something likely to make CNN business news ? Or something which is* just an internal change inside of Compaq ?  A Is palmer buying VMS so he can comlete his job of destroying it ?i   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 12:47:03 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) / Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformationr, Message-ID: <qhvwBec3WmHF@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <3B3247DD.F3772FD0@videotron.ca>,  3     JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:o > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: 8 >> And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting! >  > P > OK, when will the masses (us) realise that something is happening ? Or are theG > chances so subtle that we won't notice it until you reveal it to us ?A > J    Well whatever it is, I'm sure it will start a long thread about how theI change signals the death of VMS - which will get all of us off of ranting.. about SUVs, US culture, WalMart and unions :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:53:16 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformationc, Message-ID: <3B325EB5.2C40DB6E@videotron.ca>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:L >    Well whatever it is, I'm sure it will start a long thread about how theK > change signals the death of VMS - which will get all of us off of rantings0 > about SUVs, US culture, WalMart and unions :-)    H Perhaps Compaq should kill VMS once and for all, but let it haunt the ITN industry at night as a vampire that sucks the blood off Bill Gates :-) :-) :-)  M Seriously, the title of the thread indicates that Compaq might embark on some M 6 month project to change something. A bit like Air Canada making that famoustK 180 day engagement to reduce the problems the passengers were experiencing.n  L Considering how Wall Street loves IBM because it has true enterprise systemsK that are more sheltered and more profitable, Compaq might have awakened andd9 might try to copy IBM in an attempt to bolster its stock.I  M On the other hand, there is the pressure for Compaq to become as efficient asaH Dell, and fixing ist PC production and distribution  seems a more likely  candidate for a 6 month project.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:51:02 -0700r* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation 4 Message-ID: <69tY6.4325$Ib.466088@news1.primary.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:qhvwBec3WmHF@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...H >    Well whatever it is, I'm sure it will start a long thread about how thecC > change signals the death of VMS - which will get all of us off of- ranting-0 > about SUVs, US culture, WalMart and unions :-) > G Not if WalMart takes over VMS.  Then we'd all be singing the praises ofr> the late Sam Walton for saving VMS and cursing those lethargicG programmer unions who won't see the light.  You know, the lights of the.0 oncoming VMS powered SUV about to run them over.    Jack Peacocko   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:42:45 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformationa< Message-ID: <VDvY6.3048$wU6.3394363@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:qhvwBec3WmHF@malvm5.mala.bc.ca.... > In article <3B3247DD.F3772FD0@videotron.ca>,5 >     JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:h > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:3: > >> And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting! > >J > >hJ > > OK, when will the masses (us) realise that something is happening ? Or are the I > > chances so subtle that we won't notice it until you reveal it to us ?  > > L >    Well whatever it is, I'm sure it will start a long thread about how theK > change signals the death of VMS - which will get all of us off of rantingk0 > about SUVs, US culture, WalMart and unions :-) >   E Somehow I doubt that will be the case. The Transformation memo per seeL addresses issues like simplification, consolidation, expense reduction, etc.H The sort of things you would expect Capellas to emphasize in the currentD market climate. Proclaiming the "death of VMS" would NOT boost one's credibility.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:01:37 GMTS2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: connect to XServer over decneto- Message-ID: <lwrY6.1$rc5.25@news.cpqcorp.net>e  j In article <Oozvf8elmJpy-pn2-cnC7s0mU0oIP@Tom2>, Thomas.Hahnemann@nospam_s-t.de (Thomas Hahnemann) writes: :Is there a way to do  :,6 :set display /create/trans=decnet/node=mynode/screen=1 :(J :without DCL, means to create a working display logical from a C-programm?  L   WARNING: the WS-class device $qio interface is undocumented, unsupported, '   and subject to change without notice.   E   You can explicitly specify the target display name directly on the nC   XtOpenDisplay call, IIRC.  Strings like 0:0.1 (for IP) or 0::0.1  G   (for DECnet) should work, again, IIRC.  By default, the DECW$DISPLAY 0E   logical is is used to find the WS-class device, and from there the iG   target host, protocol, display, and screen.  Check the XtOpenDisplay  I   documentation in the DECwindows documentation set and in the X Windows tJ   documentation.  Also poke around in some of the DECwindows and X Windows#   example programs that are around.s  C   The SET DISPLAY and SHOW DISPLAY commands store and retrieve the  ?   information on the target using a WS-class pseudo-device, andnG   specifically the contents of the WS-class unit control block (UCB).  1?   While the WS-class device $qio interface is undocumented and j>   unsupported, there exists an example of a SHOW DISPLAY tool $   available on the OpenVMS Freeware.  E   The Freeware example program uses SENSEMODE to read the values, and.D   you can use SETMODE to write the values into the WS-class device. G   (Target an existing WS-class device, or $assign to the WSA0: templatedJ   to get a new device, then update the device UCB contents).  For example:           ...8         #include <iodef.h>         #include <efndef.h>u         #include <ssdef.h>         #include <stsdef.h>0         ...w  &         ItemCode = DECW$C_WS_DSP_NODE;L         RetStat = sys$qiow ( EFN$C_ENF, IOChan, IO$_SETMODE|IO$M_WS_DISPLAY,                    0, 0, 0,i-                    DisplayNode.dsc$a_pointer,a,                    DisplayNode.dsc$w_length,&                    ItemCode, 0, 0, 0);,         if (!$VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS( RetStat ))=           lib$signal( YOUR_APPLICATION_SPECIFIC_ERROR_CODE );a  I   See the Freeware example for the remainder of the "interesting stuff", n5   such as the DECW$C_WS_DSP* symbol definitions, etc.t  L   WARNING: the WS-class device $qio interface is undocumented, unsupported, '   and subject to change without notice.'  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:02:07 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o9 Subject: Re: Few pictures from the London Update May 2001i0 Message-ID: <009FDE1D.E5197B81@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <8824jts6rrpn3m2c62rth6f3jim6d8fnlg@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:A >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:54 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian-  >Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote: >l >. >>G >>BTW, the fellow in the white shirt on the left of picture #2 is Hoff.i > A >And to the right of Hoff is Steve Reece in the black suit and meuD >(somewhat hungover) in the blue top grinning inanely at the camera.  E A bit too pissed the night before always makes for better pix in the D morning.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr            eO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.o   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 14:24:43 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g* Subject: Re: Intrusion & Password Checking3 Message-ID: <SxF$exqcB$fR@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  p In article <3b318622.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:< > Larry Kilgallen (Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam) wrote:7 >> martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:h  M >> > where username is the key and the number of hashed PWs can be calculatedxL >> > from rab$w_rsz returned for a record. How does one compare a PW againstL >> > the hashed PWs? I.e. where does one get the algorithm and the salt from* >> > to $HASH_PASSWORD the password-to-be? >>G >> The algorithm and salt should be stored wherever the hashed passwordqL >> is being stored.  For VMS system passwords, this is in the SYSUAF record. > G > Erm.. so that means an UAF record's salt and algorithm don't ever get J > changed? And new passwords should be hashed using those? That's the onlyJ > possibility I can imagine so that new passwords can be compared with the > history records.  C As I recall, the password hashes are compared blindly against thosedA from the history file, depending on the likelyhood of a collisioni@ being vanishingly small.  In the event of a collision, the worst? that can happen is the user gets told to choose a different newb$ password than the one they proposed.  = New passwords typically are hashed with the latest algorithm,p? provided the algorithm is not in the "customer provided" range.K? I suppose it would be possible to change the salt for usernamesN= that have only a single password, but dual-password usernamesn? could not have their hashes changed, but there is no DCL syntax.	 for that.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:32:36 +0200a2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: Intrusion & Password Checking; Message-ID: <3b324bd4.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   I Larry Kilgallen (Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam) wrote on comp.os.vms:0 ...1  $ Thanks a lot. I can work from there.  F The deeper I get into this, the more it seems I'm re-coding Tom Wade'sH SETPASS, which actually is a nifty piece of software - the only drawbackA being that it's written in FORTRAN (which isn't exactly one of myC favorite languages).  
 Thanks again.    Martin --  G                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer54  UNIX is user friendly.    | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG  It's just selective about |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/a;  who its friends are.      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.den   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:14:47 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)m: Subject: Re: Kernel Stack Not Valid (was: Odd System Halt)3 Message-ID: <du3D04xYqGl7@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  o In article <vANr+XMwIaDo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e_ > In article <3b27d822.152990789@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes:e >> Hi Chaps, >> eE >> This morning found one of our Alphas (DEC3000) runs VMS 7.2-1, all H >> recent patches including the new Upgrade V2.0 Patch & ECO 1 for TCPIP3 >> 5.1. Also 7.3A of DECamds installed on 7th June.- >>   >> It was at the >>> prompt,   >> t >> Message on the screen was:o >> c >> kernel stack not valid halt p > H > Try using SYSGEN (followed by MODPARAMS.DAT) to increase the number ofI > kernel stack pages.  Some products indicate in their documentation thattI > this is required.  Some product developers have not figured it out yet. H > You can use SDA to figure out which driver used it up, but it is a bitH > more difficult when the pointer has been reset to the beginning of the7 > stack to handle reporting the kernel stack not valid.o  J Haven't seen this since increasing MIN_KSTACKPAGES to 4 back in early 1997E after taking some KRNLSTAKNV crashes on a DEC 7000 running 6.2-1H3...a  H Don't recall if the culprit was PATHWORKS, the RAID driver, or something else.o   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 00:32:20 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: LOCKMGRERR crashess* Message-ID: <3b3275f4$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  / Today I had three crashes (so far) of the form:    Crashdump Summary Information:  -----------------------------* Crash Time:        21-JUN-2001 23:24:18.47= Bugcheck Type:     LOCKMGRERR, Error detected by Lock Managero$ Node:              MARS    (Cluster)) CPU Type:          AlphaServer 2100 5/250  VMS Version:       V7.2-1- Current Process:   NULL-" Current Image:     <not available>> Failing PC:        FFFFFFFF.8022A508    LCK$RCV_RMVDIR_C+002E8$ Failing PS:        38000000.00000804K Module:            SYS$CLUSTER    (Link Date/Time:  6-SEP-2000 17:29:17.67)  Offset:            00026508s  * Boot Time:         21-JUN-2001 20:51:34.00    F Yesterday I installed the ECO 3 of DECnet-Plus and VMS721_AUDSRV-V0100L and today we switched a core switch network connection from access to trunk.  M Is the UPDATE 2 ECO (which I installed weeks ago and I know of problems with) I the cause and network problems the trigger, or is the DECnet-Plus ECO the M cause, or is the problem long existing and without (network) triggers unfound  till today ?  ; What do you think is more likely the cause of the crashes ?    TIA8   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888.< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:22:05 +0300o. From: "Mickey Yogev" <MickeyX.Yogev@intel.com> Subject: Re: LOCKMGRERR crashes-* Message-ID: <9gua4g$9dd@news.or.intel.com>  H As far as I know the ECO-3 for DECnet-Plus is neccesary to fix a problemI with the SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:NET$ALIAS.EXE misbehavior, as for the second - one I haven't got info about so I can't help.a< Good luck & if you get further into it I'll be glad to hear.   Mickey  5 Peter LANGSTOEGER <eplan@kapsch.net> wrote in messaged$ news:3b3275f4$1@news.kapsch.co.at...1 > Today I had three crashes (so far) of the form:  >e  > Crashdump Summary Information:  > ------------------------------, > Crash Time:        21-JUN-2001 23:24:18.47? > Bugcheck Type:     LOCKMGRERR, Error detected by Lock Manager & > Node:              MARS    (Cluster)+ > CPU Type:          AlphaServer 2100 5/250e > VMS Version:       V7.2-1  > Current Process:   NULL-$ > Current Image:     <not available>@ > Failing PC:        FFFFFFFF.8022A508    LCK$RCV_RMVDIR_C+002E8& > Failing PS:        38000000.00000804@ > Module:            SYS$CLUSTER    (Link Date/Time:  6-SEP-2000 17:29:17.67) > Offset:            00026508n >s, > Boot Time:         21-JUN-2001 20:51:34.00 >B >-H > Yesterday I installed the ECO 3 of DECnet-Plus and VMS721_AUDSRV-V0100G > and today we switched a core switch network connection from access toi trunk. >nI > Is the UPDATE 2 ECO (which I installed weeks ago and I know of problems? with)oK > the cause and network problems the trigger, or is the DECnet-Plus ECO thebG > cause, or is the problem long existing and without (network) triggersd unfoundh > till today ? >t= > What do you think is more likely the cause of the crashes ?a >t > TIAu >i > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888p> > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:42:02 -030011 From: "Valdemir J. Santos" <valdemir-@uol.com.br>3 Subject: Logical name doubty< Message-ID: <000a01c0fab4$2733fe30$154c88c8@unipobjetivo.br>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0FA9B.01B4B9B0e Content-Type: text/plain;t 	charset="iso-8859-1"i+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   F I'd like to create a logical name to see files in other nodes , like = this:     0   $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::"   but, when I issue the command:  
   $ DIR A4   I have this output:   E   %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX":: as inputm.    -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax error  ,  What can I make to this command work fine ?  :  In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK account with all privileges.    Thank you in advance...  + ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0FA9B.01B4B9B0w Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"A+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablea  > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>3 <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =  http-equiv=3DContent-Type>6 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>a </HEAD>  <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>G <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to create a logical name to =- see files in=20-% other nodes , like this:</FONT></DIV>1 <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>M <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>oF <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; $ DEFINE&nbsp; ALPHA2&nbsp;=203 "ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX"::"</FONT></DIV>u <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>W8 <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but, when I issue the = command:</FONT></DIV>s <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> B <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;$ DIR A4</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>nA <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have this output:</FONT></DIV>l <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> J <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening=20: ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX":: as input</FONT></DIV>@ <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; -RMS-F-SYN, file = specification syntax=20  error</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>u; <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;What can I make to =r this</FONT><FONT=20o< face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;command work fine ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>pE <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK =  account with all=20s privileges.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>r6 <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Thank you in=20% advance...</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>o  - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0FA9B.01B4B9B0--r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:52:30 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>. Subject: Re: Logical name doubty( Message-ID: <3B3296CE.AF9B0391@mmaz.com>  & --------------38534792B2191C369609B52B* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bita  E If this is so reoccuring that you want to define a logical, you mightn- better consider setting up a proxy instead...d   As for the logical, try:  ) $   define alp2 alpha2"""WORK XXXXXX"""::S  D and I would NOT use a logical with the same name as the node, it too will cause you grief...e   Barryo   "Valdemir J. Santos" wrote:i  F > I'd like to create a logical name to see files in other nodes , likeE > this:    $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::" but, when IuG > issue the command:   $ DIR A4 I have this output:   %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, F > error opening ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX":: as input   -RMS-F-SYN, fileG > specification syntax error  What can I make to this command work fineDE > ?  In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK account with all privileges.  Thank  > you in advance....   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOc  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028@    & --------------38534792B2191C369609B52B) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">L If this is so reoccuring that you want to define a logical, you might better& consider setting up a proxy instead... <p>As for the logical, try:<br>  <br>3 $&nbsp;&nbsp; define alp2 alpha2"""WORK XXXXXX"""::sG <p>and I would NOT use a logical with the same name as the node, it too  will cause you grief...  <p>Barry <p>"Valdemir J. Santos" wrote:% <blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>n$ <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I'd like to create a logical name to see files in other nodes , like this:</font></font>&nbsp;&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;o{ $ DEFINE&nbsp; ALPHA2&nbsp; "ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX"::"</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>but,cT when I issue the command:</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;H $ DIR A4</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I have thisT output:</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp; %DIRECT-E-OPENIN,v error opening ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX":: as input</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;j -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax error</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;Whatc can I make to this command work fine ?</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;Inlv node ALPHA2 I have a WORK account with all privileges.</font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;Thank, you in advance...</font></font></blockquote>   <p>--dF <p>Barry Treahy, Jr&nbsp; *&nbsp; Midwest Microwave&nbsp; *&nbsp; Vice President &amp; CIOeD <p>E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028
 <br>&nbsp; </body>t </html>o  ( --------------38534792B2191C369609B52B--   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:10:53 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: Logical name doubtr0 Message-ID: <009FDE1F.1E6D1D89@SendSpamHere.ORG>  p In article <000a01c0fab4$2733fe30$154c88c8@unipobjetivo.br>, "Valdemir J. Santos" <valdemir-@uol.com.br> writes:- >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.e >p, >------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0FA9B.01B4B9B0 >Content-Type: text/plain; >	charset="iso-8859-1", >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable=                             accursed format... die! die! die!    >TG >I'd like to create a logical name to see files in other nodes , like =o >this: >d >c1 >  $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::"l >  >but, when I issue the command:< >e >  $ DIR A4  >c >I have this output: > F >  %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX":: as input/ >   -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax error  >y- > What can I make to this command work fine ?_ >P; > In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK account with all privileges.y >e > Thank you in advance...   0 $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2""WORK   XXXXXXXXX""::"  & XXXXXXXXX is not a very good password.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM)            hO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:59:42 +0300$. From: "Mickey Yogev" <MickeyX.Yogev@intel.com> Subject: Re: Logical name doubti* Message-ID: <9gu8qg$8gp@news.or.intel.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0FAD8.25F81870  Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1"-+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable-   Hi Valdemir,  ( There are few steps to take care about :  9 1. Never use / define a logical name same as a node name. , 2. I believe it was a typo where you wrote :2     $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::" but issued the command:c    $ DIR A4eE    I believe you did "Define A4..." if not no wonder why you got an =R	 error :-)t* 3. You should use the following commands :.     $ Define A4 "ALPHA2""WORK   XXXXXXXXX""::"     $ DIR A4I 4. If you still face an error message then check if you are able to run =a : +     $ Directory  ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::wD     If not then you probably have some DECNET problems or it might =@ happen if you have a "spaghetti"  search lists of logical names.  	 Good Luckl   Mickey    < Valdemir J. Santos <valdemir-@uol.com.br> wrote in message =6 news:000a01c0fab4$2733fe30$154c88c8@unipobjetivo.br...H   I'd like to create a logical name to see files in other nodes , like = this:     2     $ DEFINE  ALPHA2  "ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX"::"      but, when I issue the command:       $ DIR A4     I have this output:e  G     %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ALPHA2"WORK   XXXXXXXXX":: as inputy0      -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax error  .    What can I make to this command work fine ?  <    In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK account with all privileges.      Thank you in advance...  + ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0FAD8.25F81870l Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1">+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>3 <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =. http-equiv=3DContent-Type>9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>g <STYLE></STYLE>l </HEAD>> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>: <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Valdemir,</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>hJ <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are few steps to take care about=20 :</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> G <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. Never use /&nbsp;define a logical =n name same as a=20  node name.</FONT></DIV>aG <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. I believe it was a typo where you =m wrote=20 :</FONT></DIV>D <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $ DEFINE&nbsp; = ALPHA2&nbsp;=20t& "ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX"::"E <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but issued the command:</FONT></DIV>sC <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; $ DIR A4</FONT></DIV>fI <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe you did "Define A4..." if not no wonder why = 
 you got=20 an error :-)</DIV>: <DIV>3. You should&nbsp;use the following commands :</DIV>@ <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $ Define A4 "ALPHA2""WORK&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 XXXXXXXXX""::"</DIV> <DIV>a; <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $ DIR =e A4</FONT></DIV>nJ <DIV>4. If you still face an error message then check if you are able to = run=20 :</DIV>2H <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; $ Directory&nbsp;=201 ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX"::</FONT></DIV>eC <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If not then you probably have some DECNET =i problems or it=20eG might happen if you have a "spaghetti" &nbsp;search lists of logical=20a names.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>I <DIV>Good Luck</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>c <DIV>Mickey</DIV></DIV>, <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>a <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>t( <DIV></FONT>Valdemir J. Santos &lt;<A=20I href=3D"mailto:valdemir-@uol.com.br">valdemir-@uol.com.br</A>&gt; wrote = 
 in message=20  <A=20nJ href=3D"news:000a01c0fab4$2733fe30$154c88c8@unipobjetivo.br">news:000a01c=: 0fab4$2733fe30$154c88c8@unipobjetivo.br</A>...</DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20J style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =, 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">I   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to create a logical name to =a see files in=20o'   other nodes , like this:</FONT></DIV>:   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>mH   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; $ DEFINE&nbsp; ALPHA2&nbsp;=205   "ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX"::"</FONT></DIV>n   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>L:   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but, when I issue the = command:</FONT></DIV>u   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> D   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;$ DIR A4</FONT></DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>sC   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have this output:</FONT></DIV>t   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> C   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error = 
 opening=20<   ALPHA2"WORK&nbsp;&nbsp; XXXXXXXXX":: as input</FONT></DIV>B   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; -RMS-F-SYN, file = specification=20   syntax error</FONT></DIV>a   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>c=   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;What can I make to =S this</FONT><FONT=20s>   face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;command work fine ?</FONT></DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>uG   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;In node ALPHA2 I have a WORK =h account with=20e   all privileges.</FONT></DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>l8   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Thank you in=202 advance...</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>  - ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C0FAD8.25F81870--o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:52:42 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>2' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusterss, Message-ID: <3B32427A.2A2FEFAA@videotron.ca>   Jesse Chambless wrote:E > We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all diskhD > drives etc.  Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersD > will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away8 > perform with users being load balanced on the cluster.  N My experience predates SANs, it was with host based volume shadowing, compared to dual ported RA drives.s  J Read performance was increased (when one disk is too busy, it fetches data from another).K Write performance was decreased (you have to wait for the IO to complete onS the remote node).a  L But the biggest difference was after a reboot, system performance would suck7 for an hour or two while shadowsets were being rebuilt.   K Will you be using the SANs to run the distance shadown sets, or will you bes3 using VMS host based shadowing to mirror the SANs ?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:05:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusterst, Message-ID: <3B32456F.64896F69@videotron.ca>   "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:d > H > You really should have a storage/cluster presentation prepared for you > by your Compaq sales person.   You're joking rigth ?   N Do you realise that a Compaq office with proper VMS expertise willing to visitM clients is something of an oddball rarity ? When I setup my disaster tolerent E system, the local office was nowhere to be seen. It is only due to my-J connections at DECUS, and perfect timing of a Decuserve meeting in the USAJ where I met John Covert who had told me how the new volume shadowing stuffN would in fact work and that it had been designed just for that that I was able% to confidently propose that solution.A  L The one time the local office sent someone, it was to make a presentation onL their IBM interconnect software/hardware and I had told them to bring a REALM expert because he was going to be presenting to the SNA experts at that bank.eG The local office just got out a local SE who knew very little about theoM products and I was accused internally of making people waste their time on an- empty presentation.   N So when I hear about customers that get visits from VMS engineers or Marcello,K I take that with a big grain of salt because for every such visits, I thinkpM that there are far many more sites that get the type of non-service I used to - get when I was working at VMS customer sites.    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 14:47:34 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clustersE= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106211347.3eaefd9e@posting.google.com>t   jnchambl@texaschildrenshospital.org (Jesse Chambless) wrote in message news:<d92c63cc.0106210540.656b304b@posting.google.com>...H > We are currently planning on moving our VMS cluster nodes for disasterH > tolerance.  The current plan is to have 1 node in our current computerC > room, 1 node in a newly built computer room approximately 3000 ftED > away, and 1 node approximately 30 miles from these locations.  The0 > nodes will be ES40s with SAN EMA12000 storage.  : Do you plan to run Fibre Channel between the sites, or use@ MSCP-serving over an SCS-capable link for the inter-site storage traffic?  E > We plan on configuring the 3 nodes in a cluster, shadowing all disk- > drives etc.   A Do you plan on 2-member or 3-member shadow sets, given you have 3  sites?D Or is the 3rd site 3000 feet away intended to be only a quorum site?  -7 > Can someone give me an idea of how the shadow membersmD > will perform, how will the performance be on the node further away8 > perform with users being load balanced on the cluster. >iF > I seem to have conflicting information on how performance will be onF > the far away node and the latentcy of the shadow sets as far as real > time usage is concerned.  A With a 30-mile distance, you're probably going to see about a 2-3s0 millisecond round trip time to the distant site.  @ With either MSCP or Fibre Channel protocols, writes take 2 roundE trips, so remote write I/Os to the 30-mile-distant site will probably D see an additional 5 ms or so of latency.  Whether or not you'll evenD notice this difference will depend on how critical write performance' is to your application's response time.c  F With user load at both sites, resources will be shared by coordinatingC with the VMS Distributed Lock Manager, and at least some portion of-D the lock requests will travel between sites and incur the inter-siteA round-trip latency.  Depending on how your application does I/Os,MB there can actually be significantly more lock requests for a given# transaction than remote write I/Os..  F You can begin looking at your application behavior now to see how muchF write activity and locking activity it's generating, to better predict< the potential impact of spreading the workload across sites.   KeithD   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:24:37 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clustersT< Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106211424.4ec75b1@posting.google.com>  f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<YLoBp8Gksfej@eisner.encompasserve.org>...C > 	I believe work is under way to cut round-trips on shadow writes D  E I'll send mail to the present QIO Server developer, but I don't thinkV2 there is presently any work underway in this area.  = > 	Shadow Reads?  Great news there!  7.2-1 has /READ_COST and<D > 	/SITE qualifiers to ensure most/all reads are *local*.  Excellent> > 	newer paper on Long Distant clusters is here and touches on > 	that:  = These qualifiers were added not in 7.2-1, but in a subsequenthB more-recent VOLSHAD ECO kit.  They are in 7.3, and will presumably also be in 7.2-2.&  C Host-based Volume Shadowing originally differentiated between localaF and MSCP-served I/Os, and tended to send all reads to the local memberD unless its queue length got too large.  With VOLSHAD ECO kits of the@ last 3 years or so, you had to set bit 16 of the SHADOW_SYS_DISK$ parameter to get that behavior back.  B What's neat about the new qualifiers is that it allows VMS for theF first time to differentiate between local and remote disks that appearC the same to VMS.  Today you're likely to see local and remote Fibre6D Channel disks, but the same problem existed in the past in trying to; tell the difference between disks on an FDDI Storage Server 9 (HS100/HS200/SWXNA) at a local site versus a remote site.p   Keithe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:31:32 -0400"+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e' Subject: RE: Long distance VMS clusterseR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF48DBE91@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,n  F While I do not doubt that you may have had some issues with your local> office, the same issues certainly do not apply to all cities.   D In such situations, if you were/are having issues like this, I would> recommend escalating it via the local Compaq Management folks.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Inc. Professional ServicesR Voice: 613-592-4660i Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: June 21, 2001 3:05 PM: To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clustersy     "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:i > H > You really should have a storage/cluster presentation prepared for you > by your Compaq sales person.   You're joking rigth ?>  H Do you realise that a Compaq office with proper VMS expertise willing to visitsD clients is something of an oddball rarity ? When I setup my disaster tolerentE system, the local office was nowhere to be seen. It is only due to myeJ connections at DECUS, and perfect timing of a Decuserve meeting in the USAJ where I met John Covert who had told me how the new volume shadowing stuffI would in fact work and that it had been designed just for that that I was  able% to confidently propose that solution.t  L The one time the local office sent someone, it was to make a presentation onL their IBM interconnect software/hardware and I had told them to bring a REALG expert because he was going to be presenting to the SNA experts at thatp bank.fG The local office just got out a local SE who knew very little about the"J products and I was accused internally of making people waste their time on an empty presentation.%  D So when I hear about customers that get visits from VMS engineers or	 Marcello,>K I take that with a big grain of salt because for every such visits, I thinkiJ that there are far many more sites that get the type of non-service I used to- get when I was working at VMS customer sites.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:54:59 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusters&, Message-ID: <3B32A572.B34327F0@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:  F > In such situations, if you were/are having issues like this, I would@ > recommend escalating it via the local Compaq Management folks.  I Been there, done that. All it did was burn bridges at more than the local2G level. Pointing to the incompetence of the local office doesn't get you : anything except even worse service from the local  office.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:35:48 +0300D. From: "Mickey Yogev" <MickeyX.Yogev@intel.com>' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusters.* Message-ID: <9guau6$a3o@news.or.intel.com>  D I'm so sorry for you but you should try the VMS service-engineers in! Israel - here you get it right...9   Mickey  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B32456F.64896F69@videotron.ca... > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:d > >aJ > > You really should have a storage/cluster presentation prepared for you  > > by your Compaq sales person. >  > You're joking rigth ?" >HJ > Do you realise that a Compaq office with proper VMS expertise willing to visitcF > clients is something of an oddball rarity ? When I setup my disaster tolerentG > system, the local office was nowhere to be seen. It is only due to my L > connections at DECUS, and perfect timing of a Decuserve meeting in the USAL > where I met John Covert who had told me how the new volume shadowing stuffK > would in fact work and that it had been designed just for that that I wasr able' > to confidently propose that solution.b > K > The one time the local office sent someone, it was to make a presentatione onI > their IBM interconnect software/hardware and I had told them to bring a- REALI > expert because he was going to be presenting to the SNA experts at thaty bank.@I > The local office just got out a local SE who knew very little about theoL > products and I was accused internally of making people waste their time on an > empty presentation.7 > F > So when I hear about customers that get visits from VMS engineers or	 Marcello,eG > I take that with a big grain of salt because for every such visits, I  thinkvL > that there are far many more sites that get the type of non-service I used to/ > get when I was working at VMS customer sites.O   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:05:39 GMTy- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)g Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.11 Message-ID: <3b324568.107211411@news.process.com>A  C Thanks to Colin Blake, a new Mozilla image is now available to make D Mozilla V0.9.1 work with MultiNet V4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3.  The new? image is LIBNSPR4.SO, which replaces that image in your Mozilla  installation directory.t  C You can get the new image via anonymous FTP from FTP.PROCESS.COM ine [.MOZILLA], or use this URL:  ) ftp://ftp.process.com/mozilla/libnspr4.sor  F This same image allows Mozilla to work with both MultiNet and TCPware.B Note that the image is on FTP.PROCESS.COM and not the MultiNet FTP site.h     Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/s9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:52:51 GMTy, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>! Subject: Re: OpenVMS Applicationsc< Message-ID: <nizY6.70109$tb6.17974058@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  5 In message <3B2E68CD.45FE78D1@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei-% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:l, > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:J > > a) How many  hard/soft contracts does Compaq have with Customers using > > VMS/OpenVMS systems ?i > I > But Compaq doesn't know about customers still running VMS but no suport.K > contracts because they have stable systems with plenty of spare hardware.G >  > B > > b) Does Compaq have the whole list of VMS/OpenVMS systems sold > > in the last 20 years ? > I > Compaq has no idea how many of these systems are still in use, how manye have > been scredded/destroyed. > L > My guess would be to conduct the audit based on the license database. Send a 4 > questionaire to all those in the licence database. > L > Note: to Compaq, a PC box maker, the concept of knowing who your customers areo > is a foreign one.N  O Funny, about a month, two months ago I got a call from a student who was takingHM a survey for someone, I think Compaq, on my VMS systems.  Had a list of aboutiL 20 questions.  Nope, don't remember any except for what version of VMS I was4 running.  Ok, Ok, they asked what systems I had too.   -- i4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:09:47 -0300c) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br  Subject: OpenVMS by ....L Message-ID: <OFBF44809D.200F7F7C-ON03256A72.0063B9D1@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>    To give this kind of suggestion:   a) IBM - no, never !  B b) Sun - Should be better for them to buy Palm to become much more- poplular - they dont have a consumer product.    c) SGI  - Too cientific.  ) d) Siemens-Fujitsu: No way: they are Sun.e  " e) Hitachi: No way:  they are IBM.  ; f) HP - A good choice but I believe they dont want OpenVMS.IJ They will try to migrate the industrial users to HP-UX + Agilent products.  J g) Samsung:  A good choice. They will gain 450.000 customers from night to day.0 You dont know the power of the Korean companies.   h) Cray.- The end of OpenVMS.s  K i) A new company sliced from Compaq:  the name should be Digital, but there1' is not confidence in this name anymore.>  % j) DELL:  The  taste of revenge ! :-)0    $ Any ideas ?  I am between g)  or  i)     Regards;   FC          7 Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de> em 21/06/2001 14:34:073  2 Favor responder a Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com/      E Assunto: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyD          shouldbuy VMS    ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:" >K > IBM.@ > They make processor chips (including Alpha IIRC) and hardware. > They do storage./ > They "understand" the enterprise marketplace.VF > They like diversity within their business and are happy to advertise > products.NJ > They tried to market AS400 as the VAXkiller but Digital/Compaq beat them to > it./I > They have an FM business in-house to do management of customer systems.p2 > And (I think) they have a services organisation. >&E > Plus, IBM salespeople will sell you things you don't need (read VAXa Trek). > Steve.  A If similarity would be a decisive factor, I'd appoint ... FujitsuV Siemens.  G Similar structure: Large PC 'foreground', large mainframe/midframe/UNIX  server 'background'.  G Besides Windows, more than a single additional OS: BS2000, Reliant UNIX&H aka SINIX. Not mention different hardware lines, as the UNIX servers run/ on MIPS, the mainframes on propietary CPUs (?).<  F Similar Situation: Future of UNIX servers and mainframes is uncertain,H BS2000 is more and more a legacy product, and Reliant UNIX together withE MIPS-based CPU modules will be ditched for Solaris on Itanium. Due to-F Fujitsu, there is already a full replacement for the RM600/RM400 line,1 namely the Fujitsu SPARC servers (GP7000 and up).n  D Then we have the Synergy Effect (very important, was touted as majorB factor when Siemens bought Nixdorf 10 years ago 8-)): very similarD product lines, so massive layoff opportunities to boost share prices 8-((  E And, last but not least, this way Fujitsu Siemens would finally get au1 huge market share with all the 'Leftpondians'....d    G This is of course not that serious... but we have seen stranger merges,e
 haven't we ??p   --* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:39:44 -0400,- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: Re: OpenVMS by ...., Message-ID: <3B324D7D.88A4E2B6@videotron.ca>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > a) IBM - no, never !  L I would have no problems with IBM buying VMS/ALPHA. Look at what they did toJ Lotus Notes: they were able to shove it down all of their major customer'sT throats. Imagine if they did that to VMS. I  might be able to find VMS related work.  N So I am confident that IBM could be able to exploit VMS's advantages. However,L I am not sure that IBM really needs/wants another OS. However, getting AlphaN might be interesting. Imagine if they were to port MVS to alpha, AIX to alpha,L NSK to alpha etc and then use Wildfires to provide tight integration between' the various instances of different OSs.e  D > b) Sun - Should be better for them to buy Palm to become much more/ > poplular - they dont have a consumer product.   N Sun has the guts to market VMS against Microsoft. But Sun is also too proud toI admit that Solaris isn't the best OS in the world. Sun woudl benefit fromeL having Alpha for its Solaris, and would also enjoy the opportunity to marketL VMS in the face of Compaq to show the world how incometent Compaq was by notM markleting VMS. But once the joke was done, I am not sure that Sun would want  with VMS in the long term.  + > d) Siemens-Fujitsu: No way: they are Sun.o$ > e) Hitachi: No way:  they are IBM.L > g) Samsung:  A good choice. They will gain 450.000 customers from night to  K The above 3 would have an uphill batter to convince VMS customers that theye? could provide the same levels of service on a worldwide basis. r  = > f) HP - A good choice but I believe they dont want OpenVMS.tL > They will try to migrate the industrial users to HP-UX + Agilent products.  M Actually, the more I think about it, the more HP seems like a good fit. Carla0J needs to have something to energize HP with, something to differentiate HPN from the others because HP is starting to be seen as another vanilla box maker# without much intellectual property.e  K HP's involvement with IA64 hasn't paid off, and Alpha is still better for acN number of years than Intel's attempt at a new chip. And it would be a big blow	 to Intel.c  M > i) A new company sliced from Compaq:  the name should be Digital, but there ) > is not confidence in this name anymore.0  H This would be the easiest solution for both Compaq and VMS. Compaq couldM retain the support/services contracts while the new spin off would handle allC) of the Alpha/VMS/NSK marketing and sales.i  ' > j) DELL:  The  taste of revenge ! :-)i  N Agreed. But in the long term, once the joke and insult to Compaq is done with,% I don't see Dell doing much with VMS.p    K The one company that has not been mentioned so far is the big nasty Redmond M one. With the current guy in the white house, they would get away with buyingmH VMS/Alpha from Compaq since this could be viewed as an interdepartmentalI transfer as Compaq is just a division of Microsoft anyways. Consider thatoK Digital/Compaq have donated planty of VMS technologies to MS, but MS hasn'tcK been able to make it work. Getting the real VMS engineers on the other handaL would enable Microsoft to come out with much better quality systems. I guess> Gates has realised that Cuttler alone isn't all that great :-)    M Another company is APPLE. It is unfortunate that Apple has its OS-X ready andrL built on a UNIX. Imagine if APPLE had been able to buys VMS from Digital andL build their desktops with a VMS kernel, nice GUI, and market the hell out ofJ VMS desktops, and at the same time, acquire a whole bunch of serious largeL scale customers with VMS has heavy duty servers. Apple would be today with a) since system where many would like to be.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:44:18 -0400w+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>p Subject: Re: OpenVMS by ....# Message-ID: <sb321662.081@aaas.org>   0 Solaris isn't the best OS in the world? ::GASP::  E >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 06/21/2001 3:39:44 PM >>>u  G Sun has the guts to market VMS against Microsoft. But Sun is also too =v proud to2 admit that Solaris isn't the best OS in the world.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:33:52 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS by ....3 Message-ID: <peJbbqpy1e1$@eisner.encompasserve.org>T  x In article <OFBF44809D.200F7F7C-ON03256A72.0063B9D1@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:= > f) HP - A good choice but I believe they dont want OpenVMS. L > They will try to migrate the industrial users to HP-UX + Agilent products.  5 No.  Ever tried using the HP development environment?p  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupsE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 18:21:03 -0700+ From: mend0070@tc.umn.edu (Phil Mendelsohn)b! Subject: Re: openvms on DEC XL300h= Message-ID: <9fffd0d8.0106211721.65fc9a24@posting.google.com>e  h Franois Boucher <fboucher@collegeem.qc.ca> wrote in message news:<3B3118E8.F9BE6105@collegeem.qc.ca>...D > Hi! I have a XL300 DEC station, which does not have an SRM console@ > to permit installation of a version of OpenVMS on the machine.B > The CPU is an Alpha 5/300MHz in this machine, and was originallyD > intended to run NT 4.0Alpha.  It runs Linux redhat 6.2 (Zoot) now. > H > I would like to know if somebody tried to change the firmware with oneB > that contains the SRM?  like taking the PC164/164LX firmware and> > to download it into the firmware, to permit an OpenVMS boot? > ; > Anybody that have some clues on this, please let me know.-  D It does say emphatically in the FAQ (ALPHA15) that OpenVMS will not,C does not, and cannot bootstrap on the XL series.  Darn it, 'cause Ic; have one too, and will be very sad if I can't make it work.@  B It says at the bottom that if we are exceedingly lucky, someone in; OpenVMS Engineering will have put together a bootstrap kit.i  = I want it too.  I wonder if there isn't a way to get the MILOsF miniloader to do it, but I suppose it doesn't understand Files-11, andE I don't know enough about what goes on with PALcode to know what it'se looking for.  D Anything to do but wring our hands?  Think of all those wasted clock	 cycles...7   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:33:37 +0100 4 From: "Chris Casey" <chris.caseyNOSPAM@ntlworld.com>; Subject: Re: Oracle hypes new clustering on Intel and LinuxRA Message-ID: <I1sY6.5079$za7.528251@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>   4 I would love to know on what basis you rule out VMS.L If Apache had been available when we put out eCommerce site together then it& would have been all VMS front to back.? We may yet throw out the existing Web server and revert to VMS!n  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B3132AB.7BFE1EF5@uk.sun.com>... >f= >Really and which one would you use to engineer an end to end  >eCommerce solution. >i< >Well you have to rule out NSK and OpenVMS because except in: >exceptional circumstances you havn't got a hope of having: >all the software available on either platform, so you end= >up with NT end to end which is lets face it Compaqs prefered < >option or a combination of NT and one of the other 3 server >OS's that Compaq provide. >s: >So how do you engineer a fault tolerant NT layer ????????: >Isn't this the problem, all the OpenVMS is ultra reliable: >is total BS since by your own tacit admission you have to8 >use it in combination with Tru64 or NT to get a working
 >solution. >k: >Or do you engineer a solution and then when it falls over3 >in a heap because NT bombs turn around and say itsM6 >OK because the RDB DBMS kept running ???? I hope this >isn't the answer !e >y >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:15:16 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>-; Subject: RE: Oracle hypes new clustering on Intel and LinuxMR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF48DBE98@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  
 Andrew ...  K >>> Well you have to rule out NSK and OpenVMS because except in exceptionalyK circumstances you havn't got a hope of having all the software available onh either platform, so you end H up with NT end to end which is lets face it Compaqs prefered option or aL combination of NT and one of the other 3 server OS's that Compaq provide.<<<  ! You can do better fud than this. e  K Are you stating that one OS can address all requirements for all Customers? = Are you stating that having OS options are not a good thing ?.  H Sounds like the ol saying "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.."   :-)o   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantv Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesr Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]e Sent: June 20, 2001 7:33 PMu To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comf; Subject: Re: Oracle hypes new clustering on Intel and Linux      "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,p > G > >>> The thread you were participating in earlier which was discussinggA > BEA products ended up concluding that BEA's support for OpenVMSm > was very mixed. <<<n > E > The BEA Product Management folks got involved and reiterated strongc supportoL > for the OpenVMS platform. Bottom line is that a few BEA Field Sales peopleK > were not in touch with their Corporate folks agreements and their own webe@ > site statements. Not much new here - Compaq has the same issue occasionally) > - as does Sun, as does IBM, as does ...s > L > >>> The clustering SW is Veritas Cluster Server, though it could have been > Sun Cluster. <<  > I > I'm sorry, but based on this statement, I did not know that the new SunNJ > Cluster software supported multi-site cluster solutions without Veritas. Cane > you confirm this?  > G > Also, that all of the applications you mentioned are supported by the 1 > vendors in the latest Sun cluster environments?o > J > >>> None of the software needs to be VCS aware because none of it exceptK > Oracle needs to know about the cluster. The apps servers replicates statee) > and the settlement system also does theo > same thing.<<< > K > So, I guess there are redundant, and idle servers at the remote site just-7 > waiting for something to happen at the original site?o >   F What makes you think that. All the apps servers are active, but there G is one more than they need to cope with their maximum transaction load.M  ? Its called a N+1 configuration if you don't recognise the idea.l    K > >>> Quite, thats what I do, you however cannot for the simple reason thata ifL > you are only using OpenVMS as a platform it is highly unlikely that all ofI > the components that make up the solution will be running on OpenVMS.<<<t > ? > Hey, in my tool bag, I have UNIX, NT, OpenVMS or NSK solutionz
 alternatives.t< > From what I can see, your toolbag has UNIX solutions only. >   = Really and which one would you use to engineer an end to end r eCommerce solution.   < Well you have to rule out NSK and OpenVMS because except in : exceptional circumstances you havn't got a hope of having : all the software available on either platform, so you end < up with NT end to end which is lets face it Compaqs prefered; option or a combination of NT and one of the other 3 server> OS's that Compaq provide.F  9 So how do you engineer a fault tolerant NT layer ????????>: Isn't this the problem, all the OpenVMS is ultra reliable : is total BS since by your own tacit admission you have to 8 use it in combination with Tru64 or NT to get a working 	 solution.   9 Or do you engineer a solution and then when it falls over 2 in a heap because NT bombs turn around and say its6 OK because the RDB DBMS kept running ???? I hope this  isn't the answer !   Regardsd Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architecth   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:03:10 GMT < From: "Louis Schneider" <lschneider@janis.fw.ecpartners.com>R Subject: Re: OT answering, was RE: How to see who causes execessive loginfailures.> Message-ID: <2qsY6.107701$DG1.17846074@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>  F I have quite a large vat of used bits which has accumulated over time.$ WHere can I send them for recycling?   -- Louis Schneidero Open Systems Administrationm Metavante Corporationn  - <steven.reece@quintiles.com> wrote in messageoB news:OFA031F720.189DF901-ON80256A71.0037E9CB@qedi.quintiles.com... >n >.L > I know there's the nettiquette of you shouldn't have a quote that's longer( > than what you are adding to the thread   <SNIP>  " >This saves bandwidth and helps toB > reduce the worldwide shortage of bits, dashes, periods and otherL > punctuation.  The numer of times it gets flouted is rather large though... > Steve. >e > Paddy wrote: > >>> L > There must be some preferred netiquette thing out there that we should all > try to follow. > <<<  >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:11:44 GMT 7 From: "Henry W. Miller" <henry.miller@worldnet.att.net>l Subject: Re: Printing NT to VMSoF Message-ID: <kqtY6.2990$kx3.257218@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  : "Christopher M Ramos" <cramos@mdshvl.com> wrote in message1 news:qE8Y6.1244$Tt6.498717@monger.newsread.com...h   Christopher,  H > Being primarily based in the Windows world, I have found myself in theL > situation where I need to setup an NT Print Queue to a VMS LAT serial LineJ > Printer.  I have already established that it would have to be through an LPRwI > port to the LPD for the VMS queue, now my NT box is looking for an SFCCt hexiL > code.  My VMS support people have been able to help as far as creating theK > queue for the printer, but have no clue about a SFCC hex number or NT forsL > that matter.  Now, knowing Windows, this could be some Microsoft inventionJ > for something every VMS admin knows, but is trying to redefine.  There'sI > plenty of information on printing from VMS to an NT queue, but not viceb > versa. >t  G     In a previous job, we had dozens of network print queues from *nix,i Novell,AF Windows and other VMS systems all sending files to the VAX Cluster andI being shoved into LAT queues.  It worked fine, and our Operations Manager L loved the fine control that VMS allowed him to have over the print jobs, and5 the network overhead for LAT printing was pretty low.   J     Now, I had helped to set up many of these queues, but primarily on theJ VMS, *nix and to some extent the Novell systems.  Offhand, I don't know ifI the Windows boxes spooled directly to the VMS systems, or went through anl intermediate system.  C     Do you know if Windows printers are using TCP/IP as the networkr	 protocol?a  L > If any there are any VMS gurus out there with NT under their belt that canH > help, I would greatly appreciate it.  This is a simple resolution, I'm sure,h4 > but not for someone that has little VMS knowledge. >f$ > Humbly bowing to your expertise... >   &     We don't stand on ceremony here...   > Christopher M Ramos0 > cramos@mdshvl.com  >a >p >u  	     Best,n   -HWM   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:52:50 GMTu, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>& Subject: Re: Raid Array 3000 + 2 ES40s< Message-ID: <mizY6.70108$tb6.17973951@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  = In message <9gn2c5$1m6u@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, "Richard Brodie"r <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote: > < > "Jonathan Boswell" <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> wrote in message) news:3B2E441F.5879BCF@ost.cdrh.fda.gov...  > K > > Then each HSZ22 host port could present to the KZPBAs at most 8 devicesr through K > > SCSI LUNs, for 16 total on two host ports.  I see no caveats about wideu busses, - > > and I think the manual might have errors.i > 2 > Very crudely (for parallel, missing some detail) > F > SCSI IDs are implemented at a low level - bit n corresponds to ID n.D > LUNs are implemented by reserving some bits in the request header. > E > Hence the width of the bus is not important for LUNs. It's purely az! > software and/or firmware issue.  > K I don't know if that's true.  When I set up my RA3000 I could not *see* anyiJ narrow disk I put in the 2nd shelf of a pair *unless* there was no disk inK the corresponding slot in the first shelf.   If slot two in the first shelfeJ was empty and I put a narrow drive in slot two of the second shelf I couldJ see it.  If I then put a narrow disk in slot two of the first shelf, (if IO remember correctly) they both disappeared.  Only when I filled to first shelves I with narrow, and the second shelves with wide could I see all the drives.a  K Now I wasn't trying to set different LUNs for everything, or use all JBODs,,L so maybe it will work that way, but I would think you'd have to see the disk first. i  I Have you tried to set up your second controller yet?  If not, let me warnuL you.  There's an error in the software and it doesn't save the configurationM correctly.  At least it's there in my version and I think I have the latest. o You have to hack it.   -- e4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:15:31 -0400n From: oem@worldwinner.com  Subject: Regarding Partnership- Message-ID: <0GFA00L7ZLBTGN@mx.east.saic.com>    Dear Webmaster,  <P> It is my pleasure to invite you to apply for membership in WorldWinner's partner program. If your site is accepted, you will join such well-known sites as Iwin, Uproar, and MyFree, and <I>you can earn up to $3.00 per day for each visitor you register!</I> Here's how it works: <P> TWorldWinner pioneered the concept of skill-based tournaments on the Internet, creating a community where users from all over the world can play fun, easy games against each other for cash. Our suite of games includes established favorites such as Solitaire, Free Cell, Chess, Shapetris and Minesweeper, and new games are released regularly. <P>t Players can practice all the games for an unlimited amount of time for free. When they're ready to test their skills competitively, they can enter tournaments involving 2-25 players, with entry fees starting at $1.00. Roughly 75 percent of the entry fees in each tournament are returned to the players as winnings - several players have already won over $50,000 - and we share the remainder with our partners. The results have been astonishing, as our <I>average player's entry fees exceed $33 per day and over 1' 5% of our players return every day.</I>  <P>iIf you qualify for our partner program, getting started is easy. You can have WorldWinner's games fully integrated on your site in under an hour. While we host the games, your visitors will feel like they're playing on your site. Our partners receive daily reporting on traffic and game revenues and, to help promote game play, <I>we give your users $5 in cash when they sign up!</I> It's like walking into an arcade and being paid to play. <P>p If you are interested in adding a proven revenue source to your site, apply today to become a WorldWinner partner at <A TARGET="newwin" HREF="http://partner.worldwinner.com/21CLE">http://partner.worldwinner.com/21CLE</A> <P> 6 To see the opportunity for yourself, play our games atw <A TARGET="newwin" HREF="http://www.worldwinner.com/cgi/welcome/21CLE">http://www.worldwinner.com/cgi/welcome/21CLE</A>a   <P>a Please feel free to contact me at any time if you have questions about becoming a WorldWinner partner. I look forward to speaking with you.    <P>c
 Paul Kang<BR>u 818-649-7663<BR>@ <A HREF="mailto:paulk@worldwinner.com">paulk@worldwinner.com</A>   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 19:37:34 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1E Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companyR+ Message-ID: <9gtidu$sf3$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>@  ' In article <3B3211DC.2431359F@uml.edu>,t.  Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes:H |> This is slightly off-track, and is something I have said here before,
 |> but ... |> o |>  K |> The timing is probably no longer any good, but I keep thinking, "Instead H |> of AT&T essentially giving away Unix, what would have happened (still< |> could happen ?) if DEC gave away the source code to VMS?"  H Ummm.  AT&T never gave Unix away.  They sold it and after changing hands6 a few more times, it is still under private ownership.   bill   -- .J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:48:09 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy, Message-ID: <3B324169.6B134FB4@videotron.ca>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > = > I don't suppose it has occured to anyone yet that VMS isn't3< > currently for sale.  And there have been no rumblings from5 > Compaq to hint that this might change anytime soon.1  L But when customers start to feel that VMS would be better off if Compaq soldJ it to a company that is more interested, that sends a very strong message.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 19:17:24 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)hP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy' Message-ID: <9gth84$qpc$1@joe.rice.edu>u  . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: : David Mathog wrote: H : > GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, 4 : > could use it internally in their many factories,  F The have, or used to have, VMS scada systems in their chemical plants.  8 : > They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq. : F : But if they were to buy only VMS /ALPHA, GE would have no worldwide D : computer support infrastructure. Perhaps they could strike a deal D : with Compaq to continue the support business and GE would only do  : sales/marketing.  F Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell, which includes the IAC group:     http://www.iac.honeywell.com/   - "GE, we bring good things to computing: VMS" s  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:44:03 -0400   From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.comP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy4 Message-ID: <C2256A72.006C320C.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  - > Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell....:   That deal is dead, but  7 remember that Honeywell acquired GE's computer business2 back in the 1970's.t  7 Of course that Business became Honeywell-Bull, which is  not exactly this Honeywell.a   Oh well.        . leslie@clio.rice.edu on 06/21/2001 03:17:24 PM  & Please respond to leslie@clio.rice.edu   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comr cc:rM Subject:  Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldm	       buyR        . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: : David Mathog wrote:oG : > GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products,c4 : > could use it internally in their many factories,  F The have, or used to have, VMS scada systems in their chemical plants.  8 : > They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq. :aE : But if they were to buy only VMS /ALPHA, GE would have no worldwidevC : computer support infrastructure. Perhaps they could strike a deal C : with Compaq to continue the support business and GE would only do  : sales/marketing.  F Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell, which includes the IAC group:     http://www.iac.honeywell.com/o  , "GE, we bring good things to computing: VMS"  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 20:13:04 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)nP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy' Message-ID: <9gtkgg$t5i$1@joe.rice.edu>   ! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:: :a : / : > Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell....- :  : That deal is dead, but :5  J Do you have a reference for that, because it sure looks alive; start with:      http://www.ge.com/news.htm   1 Then click on the article, dated June 14, titled:a     9   Honeywell Comments on GE's European Regulatory Filing  s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:05:07 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy, Message-ID: <3B326183.52CDD2A0@infopuls.com>   Jerry Leslie wrote:s > 0 > JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: > : David Mathog wrote:nI > : > GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products,a6 > : > could use it internally in their many factories, > H > The have, or used to have, VMS scada systems in their chemical plants. > : > : > They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq. > :sG > : But if they were to buy only VMS /ALPHA, GE would have no worldwide E > : computer support infrastructure. Perhaps they could strike a deal E > : with Compaq to continue the support business and GE would only do  > : sales/marketing. > H > Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell, which includes the IAC group: > ! >   http://www.iac.honeywell.com/p > . > "GE, we bring good things to computing: VMS" > 6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   The Honeywell deal got busted.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:21:31 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)P Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy) Message-ID: <fcwY6.4666$%L5.58823@insync>e  * Jerry Leslie (leslie@clio.rice.edu) wrote:# : norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:  : :  : : 1 : : > Remember that GE is acquiring Honeywell....a : :t : : That deal is dead, ... : :N : % : Do you have a reference for that...l   Nevermind, I found one:i  =   http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/06/19/deals/wires/ge_wg/index.html  % --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.eduh/                  leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.netn;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalidc2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 19:34:36 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)oT Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS+ Message-ID: <9gti8c$sf3$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   , In article <9gt0se$bqt@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,5  mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:d |> oL |> GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, couldN |> use it internally in their many factories, and could bundle it with some ofI |> their other products that could benefit from that sort of reliability.tK |> For instance, power plants or MRI machines.  And best of all, they have uL |> little or no reliance on Microsoft for anything, so they wouldn't suffer H |> the constant conflict of interest that has dogged Digital and Compaq.7 |> They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq.o  F Ge used to be in the computer business.  Even with piles of governmentE contracts they couldn't make a success of it.  What would lead you toi( believe they would fare any better now??   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:56:55 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>oY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVd, Message-ID: <3B324376.1C5CB777@videotron.ca>   David Mathog wrote:aK > GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, could?, > use it internally in their many factories,  6 > They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq.    L But if they were to buy only VMS /ALPHA, GE would have no worldwide computerG support infrastructure. Perhaps they could strike a deal with Compaq toRC continue the support business and GE would only do sales/marketing.6   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:02:23 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSV , Message-ID: <3B3260DF.BE9F3029@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:e >  > Christof Brass wrote:9 > >8D > > I offer a reward of $250.- for the first poster who proposes the> > > company which makes most sense buying the VMS from Compaq. > 
 > Ideally: > M > 1- the remaining VMS customers will want to see a serious company with longdH > term survival and a good track record of keeping to their comittments. > N > 2-you want a company that does not have serious ties/dependancies with Intel > or Microsoft.u > D > 3-you want a company that has fairly deep pockets to invest in the= > revival/marketing of VMS and "import" missing applications.e > H > 4-you want a company who is not affraid to be agressive on the market. > L > The selection of the company also depends on whether you expect support toR > remain with Compaq or if you expectr the new buyer to provide worldwide support. > R > It also depends on whether you expect the buyer to be in the IT industry or not. > M > It also depends on whether you expect NSK, Tru64 and Alpha to move with the  > new company. > P > IBM would be great, however, I think that it may cause IBM antitrust issues if5 > it has so much of the enterprise operating systems.   @ Forget the antitrust topic as long as Micro$hit is not teared in pieces.e  M > HP might be quite interesting. They seemed to have gone twoards being a boxoG > maker in recent times, so getting Alpha and VMS would give HP lots oftO > intellectual property to develop/work with thus giving HP a significant edge.e  = HP breaks one of your conditions: HP is in bed with Intel and = Micro$hit. They also sold more Wintel units the last businesst> year (about 950'000 compared to Compaq's 870'000 - don't count. on the numbers they are only roughly correct).  P > Companies without intellectual property (such as Compaq-classic, Dell and to aP > certain extent Sun are slaved to others.  For Sun, look at the muscle they are@ > able to weild with their clame to intellectual property: java.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:56:16 +0200o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVd, Message-ID: <3B325F70.775ADACF@infopuls.com>   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > H > Usually, VC people, as a condition of lending your their "hard earned"H > money, dictate who the management team will be, usually some outsidersG > with a proven track record.  This is not so bad when starting up - ashF > long as you maintain controlling interest in the venture (that's theJ > trick when negotiating, because the VC's will try to secure these rightsF > in the fine print).  I think that showing profitability from supportI > revenues depends on restructuring the typical call center/support model-I > that everyone seems to use - I've long argued that this is inefficient.sD > Secondly, identify and retain key support personnel already in theH > organization, while weeding out the deadwood. My idea of support is toB > slightly overstaff, which gives you both headroom in the supportG > organization, as well as excellent response times to customers.  Also1H > constant training of support personnel is paramount.  We all know thatJ > one experienced Sys Admin can do the work of at least 5 very junior onesJ > in a support role by identifying and solving problems much faster.  This0 > newsgroup itself is a salient example of that.  @ Doing the business right means doing much different than most of; the companies do today. I personally don't like the idea ofp@ "Sculley runs Apple". Having a short time reaction support group= is an important asset for business customers while it doesn'tz5 pay back on home users. I'll come to this back later.i  H > As far as new business is concerned, remember the Pet Rock? One of the  
 Pet Rock??  G > most brilliant marketing campaigns in history.  Short-lived, but very D > profitable (Did you really think anyone could sell rocks forever?)J > Is there anyone reading this who doesn't remember the oscar meyer weiner   Oscar Meyer Weiner song??o  G > song?  This teaches us the lesson of branding as it relates to marketyH > share.  Even when DEC was in its heyday, you could go up to an averageF > man (person) on the street and ask who IBM was and he could probablyH > tell you, but if you mentioned DEC, most likely he would have no clue.C > Look at INTEL - brilliant marketing again.  Most people could nottG > identify the microprocessors in their PC's, but they knew they wantedhI > "Intel inside".  I was in a Radio Shack a few years back and a completecI > novice was asking the RS salesman (who knew less than this customer) ifoH > this computer had Intel inside - the salesman sadly didn't know.  ThisB > illustrates the power of marketing and advertising.  DEC used toE > advertise on golf shows hoping to catch the CFO's attention.  Intel-A > correctly used MASS MARKETING, not targeted marketing.  Tageted H > marketing only works if you can hit your market correctly.  The publicI > these days is as aware of what computer to use (they may not understandrE > all of the buzzwords, but they know they need to have them) as whatmH > softdrink to buy.  Intel used several methods of effective advertising= > in their approach, including the "bandwagon method" and theeD > "technological confusion" method.  The first creates the fear thatJ > somehow the consumer is not in the "in crowd" because he's not using theH > latest and greatest - he's not "with it", and the second spouts enoughG > technical jargon that the consumer believes that it MUST be somethingtC > really good because it's a NEW technology.  Branding through massdJ > advertising leads to market penetration - always has, always will. IntelH > had an ad once that touted the CDROM as "internet connected"- what theH > hell does that mean? People bought it though.  And you've got to admitE > that their commercials were visually sexy.  Why do you think the USs  = Have never seen one (no TV and I'm always to the movies so noe ads for me).  H > Marines used Medieval Battle scenes to sell the idea to sign your lifeJ > away to them for a few years? Because kids eat it up.  I remember in theH > lobbies of movie theatres when the "Hunt for Red October" was playing,H > the Navy got permission to do recruiting drives on the spot.  A lot ofG > people joined right there beliving they would be serving on a nuclear  > sub.  = Yes, with this type of campain you will get exactly the wrongy
 customers.  F > Anyway, my point is, if you put enough marketing behind anything, itD > will sell (how the hell did rap become so pervasive in U.S cultureD > anyway? - there's your answer).  Humans, especially the young, areJ > highly influenced by visual media.  This is where they are taught how toH > dress and by and large how to act.  Adults are not immune either.  TheG > television industry would have you believe that the shows they put on C > don't affect attitudes of the viewer.  Why then, does Kotex spendEI > millions of dollars on TV advertising to influence the public's opinionoH > to buy its products knowing that fully half of the viewing audience isE > not paying attention to their feminine napkin ad? And they only geteH > about 30-60 seconds to convince you. Branding through mass advertisingI > WORKS.  If you want VMS to sell, make it a household name - make it the C > NEW thing.  For crying out loud, BELLBOTTOMS came back - and theyr
 > pre-date > VMS!!! >  > HM  = I don't agree with the idea and attitude. My analysis is that0@ the good customers are quality oriented and the target of VMS is5 *only* this ev. small market share of smart managers.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:54:55 -0400i( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVt+ Message-ID: <3B32975F.6B2321F5@bigfoot.com>,  D This is exactly what the attitude of Apple was years ago: "We have aH superior product, and people will come to us regardless".  This attitudeE of Apple made Bill Gates a BILLIONAIRE!  If you are not familiar withwF the Pet Rock or the Oscar Meyer Wiener Song, then I would advise doingB some research in this area.  The "smart managers" you seek as yourC target market, are few, and very far between.  And besides, most of F these "smart managers" don't make the buying decisions anymore.  ThoseA tasks by and large rest in the hands of the technologically-inept > "not-so-smart" managers and financial people who run companiesD (generally).  Market share determines everything in the U.S. (and byH extension) and world computer industry.  Another example IOMEGA.  IomegaG had great timing, but poor execution.  They should have run the companyaE as near as a non-profit entity as they could (even taking a loss somemE years) and lowered prices to the point where DELL,Compaq,IBM,Gateway, B etc., would have had little to consider before including their zipC drives as standard equipment in PC's.  The fact that PC's are still-D shipped with 1.44MB floppies is a testament to the lack of sales andG marketing savvy by Iomega - and a travesty.  So a "smart manager" wouldhD have chosen to bundle Zip drives in PC's from the start - why didn'tG they? Because Iomega butchered the marketing incentive (price) for them E to do so.  The aftermarket ("not-so-smart" non managers) embraced the F Zip and Jazz, but what happened? The price was simply too high to makeG it a "no-brainer" decision for everyone to get one.  On the other hand,eG if Iomega had put a mass marketing campaign together, and lowered theiryG price a little, I suspect history would have been much different. Let'srG say you were the guy who could have made the decision to put Zip drivesrD into the PC's at let's say DELL.  Your kids look on TV, and this newG thing called a Zip drive get's plastered on the screen every hour.  Noti? only might they (the kids) go out and buy one, this is GOING TO"G INFLUENCE your decision to bundle these things regarless of price, even-D if only SUBLIMINALLY.  Mass marketing secretly tells you "Don't be a> loser" go with the crowd.  That's why it's so effective - peerF pressure.  If your still not convinced, call up an ad agency yourself,B or just talk to any Phillip Morris executive while he's drunk, andG willing to freely admit that they need to hook kids in the U.S in order * to continue the revenue stream in the U.S.  E I agree that in the perfect world - or at least a sane one - that thesG superior technologies (based on all the factors such as ROI, stability,7F etc.) should win out.  Education in the U.S. (I imagine I'll get a lotF of replies on this) is sadly lacking.  Do an experiment next time yourF at the mall: Ask a teenager about 15 or 16 to tell you what 20% of $30H is by doing it in his head.  A lot of them won't even be able to to thisD on paper right away.  And you want older versions of these people toB somehow select VMS without seeing it advertised between re-runs ofA "ER".  It is sad, but true.  I invite further comments on my wildo rantings here.   HM .       Christof Brass wrote:u >  > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > >nJ > > Usually, VC people, as a condition of lending your their "hard earned"J > > money, dictate who the management team will be, usually some outsidersI > > with a proven track record.  This is not so bad when starting up - asuH > > long as you maintain controlling interest in the venture (that's theL > > trick when negotiating, because the VC's will try to secure these rightsH > > in the fine print).  I think that showing profitability from supportK > > revenues depends on restructuring the typical call center/support modelsK > > that everyone seems to use - I've long argued that this is inefficient.oF > > Secondly, identify and retain key support personnel already in theJ > > organization, while weeding out the deadwood. My idea of support is toD > > slightly overstaff, which gives you both headroom in the supportI > > organization, as well as excellent response times to customers.  AlsonJ > > constant training of support personnel is paramount.  We all know thatL > > one experienced Sys Admin can do the work of at least 5 very junior onesL > > in a support role by identifying and solving problems much faster.  This2 > > newsgroup itself is a salient example of that. > B > Doing the business right means doing much different than most of= > the companies do today. I personally don't like the idea ofaB > "Sculley runs Apple". Having a short time reaction support group? > is an important asset for business customers while it doesn't 7 > pay back on home users. I'll come to this back later.s > J > > As far as new business is concerned, remember the Pet Rock? One of the >  > Pet Rock?? > I > > most brilliant marketing campaigns in history.  Short-lived, but very F > > profitable (Did you really think anyone could sell rocks forever?)L > > Is there anyone reading this who doesn't remember the oscar meyer weiner >  > Oscar Meyer Weiner song??  > I > > song?  This teaches us the lesson of branding as it relates to marketcJ > > share.  Even when DEC was in its heyday, you could go up to an averageH > > man (person) on the street and ask who IBM was and he could probablyJ > > tell you, but if you mentioned DEC, most likely he would have no clue.E > > Look at INTEL - brilliant marketing again.  Most people could notcI > > identify the microprocessors in their PC's, but they knew they wanted K > > "Intel inside".  I was in a Radio Shack a few years back and a completeeK > > novice was asking the RS salesman (who knew less than this customer) iftJ > > this computer had Intel inside - the salesman sadly didn't know.  ThisD > > illustrates the power of marketing and advertising.  DEC used toG > > advertise on golf shows hoping to catch the CFO's attention.  InteleC > > correctly used MASS MARKETING, not targeted marketing.  Tageted-J > > marketing only works if you can hit your market correctly.  The publicK > > these days is as aware of what computer to use (they may not understand-G > > all of the buzzwords, but they know they need to have them) as whatdJ > > softdrink to buy.  Intel used several methods of effective advertising? > > in their approach, including the "bandwagon method" and the.F > > "technological confusion" method.  The first creates the fear thatL > > somehow the consumer is not in the "in crowd" because he's not using theJ > > latest and greatest - he's not "with it", and the second spouts enoughI > > technical jargon that the consumer believes that it MUST be somethingtE > > really good because it's a NEW technology.  Branding through masspL > > advertising leads to market penetration - always has, always will. IntelJ > > had an ad once that touted the CDROM as "internet connected"- what theJ > > hell does that mean? People bought it though.  And you've got to admitG > > that their commercials were visually sexy.  Why do you think the USu > ? > Have never seen one (no TV and I'm always to the movies so noa > ads for me). > J > > Marines used Medieval Battle scenes to sell the idea to sign your lifeL > > away to them for a few years? Because kids eat it up.  I remember in theJ > > lobbies of movie theatres when the "Hunt for Red October" was playing,J > > the Navy got permission to do recruiting drives on the spot.  A lot ofI > > people joined right there beliving they would be serving on a nuclear1 > > sub. > ? > Yes, with this type of campain you will get exactly the wrongw > customers. > H > > Anyway, my point is, if you put enough marketing behind anything, itF > > will sell (how the hell did rap become so pervasive in U.S cultureF > > anyway? - there's your answer).  Humans, especially the young, areL > > highly influenced by visual media.  This is where they are taught how toJ > > dress and by and large how to act.  Adults are not immune either.  TheI > > television industry would have you believe that the shows they put onlE > > don't affect attitudes of the viewer.  Why then, does Kotex spendlK > > millions of dollars on TV advertising to influence the public's opinion:J > > to buy its products knowing that fully half of the viewing audience isG > > not paying attention to their feminine napkin ad? And they only get J > > about 30-60 seconds to convince you. Branding through mass advertisingK > > WORKS.  If you want VMS to sell, make it a household name - make it the E > > NEW thing.  For crying out loud, BELLBOTTOMS came back - and theym > > pre-date
 > > VMS!!! > >  > > HM > ? > I don't agree with the idea and attitude. My analysis is that B > the good customers are quality oriented and the target of VMS is7 > *only* this ev. small market share of smart managers.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:46:00 -0400y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVw, Message-ID: <3B32A357.6FF60AE4@videotron.ca>   Christof Brass wrote:f? > HP breaks one of your conditions: HP is in bed with Intel anda? > Micro$hit. They also sold more Wintel units the last businessd@ > year (about 950'000 compared to Compaq's 870'000 - don't count0 > on the numbers they are only roughly correct).  M Perhaps. But Wall Street Casino Analysts were heard criticising HP because it.F no longer had much intellectual property. And Carla needs to take some6 "interesting" steps to bring HP back to the forefront.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:26:48 +0100a  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>S Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMSi+ Message-ID: <VA.000003da.003e3c84@sture.ch>o  P In article <OF2DF4F32A.9B777684-ON80256A72.003BC89A@qedi.quintiles.com>,  wrote:" > From: steven.reece@quintiles.com > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmseU > Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS'' > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:57:19 +0100c >  >  >  > IBM.@ > They make processor chips (including Alpha IIRC) and hardware. > They do storage./ > They "understand" the enterprise marketplace.SF > They like diversity within their business and are happy to advertise > products.tM > They tried to market AS400 as the VAXkiller but Digital/Compaq beat them to  > it.hI > They have an FM business in-house to do management of customer systems. 2 > And (I think) they have a services organisation. > L > Plus, IBM salespeople will sell you things you don't need (read VAX Trek). > Steve. >M Some practical considerations:  T IBM have an excellent problem escalation procedure which reaches senior levels very  quickly. Things get done.l  G IBM had a delivery tracking system the likes of which Fedex now boasts.a More than 20 years ago.   T Can't get the qualified staff? IBM will suggest training a bunch of youngsters. And  do so very effectively.   U They will charge plenty for these services, but they _will_ be there to support you.,p ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlandt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:04:41 -0300u) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.breY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS V L Message-ID: <OF484EC9D1.CB9640A7-ON03256A72.0068C4E0@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Everybody forgot Apple ! ! !   Regardso   FC        > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> em 21/06/2001 15:56:55  9 Favor responder a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd      E Assunto: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which companye          should buy VMS VMS VMSh     David Mathog wrote:uK > GE.  They have great management talent, have no competing products, couldg, > use it internally in their many factories,  6 > They also have more than enough money to buy Compaq.    C But if they were to buy only VMS /ALPHA, GE would have no worldwidee computerG support infrastructure. Perhaps they could strike a deal with Compaq toiC continue the support business and GE would only do sales/marketing.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:13:38 GMTs4 From: "Henry Miller" <henry.miller@worldnet.att.net>Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS VeF Message-ID: <SzsY6.2943$kx3.252387@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF484EC9D1.CB9640A7-ON03256A72.0068C4E0@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... > Everybody forgot Apple ! ! ! >h	 > Regardsd >k > FC >w >a >h >o       Yeah, we'd like to.u   -HWM   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:40:08 +0200i) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>tY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVM", Message-ID: <3B3269B8.9C6DFF7B@infopuls.com>   Michael Joosten wrote: Bingo - Game Over!  # > steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:i > >  > > IBM.B > > They make processor chips (including Alpha IIRC) and hardware. > > They do storage.1 > > They "understand" the enterprise marketplace. H > > They like diversity within their business and are happy to advertise
 > > products.NO > > They tried to market AS400 as the VAXkiller but Digital/Compaq beat them tom > > it.rK > > They have an FM business in-house to do management of customer systems.y4 > > And (I think) they have a services organisation. > >yN > > Plus, IBM salespeople will sell you things you don't need (read VAX Trek).
 > > Steve. > C > If similarity would be a decisive factor, I'd appoint ... Fujitsue
 > Siemens. > I > Similar structure: Large PC 'foreground', large mainframe/midframe/UNIXm > server 'background'. > I > Besides Windows, more than a single additional OS: BS2000, Reliant UNIX J > aka SINIX. Not mention different hardware lines, as the UNIX servers run1 > on MIPS, the mainframes on propietary CPUs (?).a > H > Similar Situation: Future of UNIX servers and mainframes is uncertain,J > BS2000 is more and more a legacy product, and Reliant UNIX together withG > MIPS-based CPU modules will be ditched for Solaris on Itanium. Due totH > Fujitsu, there is already a full replacement for the RM600/RM400 line,3 > namely the Fujitsu SPARC servers (GP7000 and up).   > Exactly - it would make much more sense to replace BS2000 with VMS than any other option.< The company has more than enough money to port all necessary  apps beside paying for the deal.  F > Then we have the Synergy Effect (very important, was touted as majorD > factor when Siemens bought Nixdorf 10 years ago 8-)): very similarF > product lines, so massive layoff opportunities to boost share prices > 8-(( > G > And, last but not least, this way Fujitsu Siemens would finally get ax3 > huge market share with all the 'Leftpondians'...., > I > This is of course not that serious... but we have seen stranger merges,  > haven't we ??v >  > --, > Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de, > Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany. > Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 606065: > C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS  # Send your bank account information.i   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 17:09:09 -05001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> 4 Subject: Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ???2 Message-ID: <w53ofrhh4e2.fsf@pitcairn.spa.umn.edu>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:c  7 > What is the status of the "mature" product DECwrite ?n > O > Did Digital sell it off to a company which then abandonned it, or did Digitali > just abandon the product ? > P > What if DECwrite were to become open sourced, and someone were to make it able< > to natively open and save WORD files on VMS workstations ?  A I always thought that DECwrite was related in some distant way to0@ FrameMaker, but I have no idea now what makes me believe that...   Graham -- vI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- , Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - (612) 624-50409 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of MinnesotaoI -------------------------------------------------------------------------g   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 22:11 CDTe' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e4 Subject: Re: Status of Decwrite .. public domain ???- Message-ID: <21JUN200122110882@gerg.tamu.edu>s  1 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes...e6 }What is the status of the "mature" product DECwrite ? } N }Did Digital sell it off to a company which then abandonned it, or did Digital }just abandon the product ?r } O }What if DECwrite were to become open sourced, and someone were to make it ableo; }to natively open and save WORD files on VMS workstations ?h  E What I want to know is why the CDE desktop's Application Manager has,oF in the "DECwindows Apps" folder/directory, an icon labeled "DECwrite".  C It, of course, doesn't actually launch DECwrite - it is aparently aI@ do-nothing stub. Right up until I first clicked on it, I had theA momentary hope that they might have started shipping it with VMS.d   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:03:41 -0500M' From: Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU>o+ Subject: Re: UCX problem - printing? other?a) Message-ID: <3B326F3D.4AB3D180@UIowa.EDU>t   Chuck Chopp wrote: > I > I'm seeing that the operator.log file on one particular system is beingvE > flooded with messages like the following [print queue name varies]:  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  17-JUN-2001 00:36:34.02  %%%%%%%%%%%" > Message from user SYSTEM on CORPJ > UCX$TELNETSYM - (SEAT$LASER1) open_socket_ast invoked with bad IOSB 556: > device	 > timeout  > ( > The system particulars are as follows: > B >   Digital TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 - ECO 34 >   on a AlphaServer 2100 5/300 running OpenVMS V7.1  L Interesting.  We have over 34,000 of those type messages in our OPERATOR.LOGI file that is only 4.5 days old... :(  We do have a another variation too:u  J TCPIP$TELNETSYM - (TP14) open_socket_ast invoked with bad IOSB 556: device timeoutdN TCPIP$TELNETSYM - (PA4P) open_socket_ast invoked with bad IOSB 660: connect to network object rejectedy  J We have TCPIP v5.0A ECO 2 on OpenVMS v7.2-1.  I am familiar with this kindF of error when connecting to "disk-less" print queues like HP JetDirect systems.  G You seemed to decide it was due to someone else's network problem.  CanaA you pass along more details?  I would love to make these go away.i  E I grabbed at the TCPIP system logical to turn off OPCOM messages, buteG I would rather not use that permanently as I don't want to miss another $ message that might be useful to see!  H I also *believe* that all of my printers are not being used by any otherI sources.  They are all VMS queues only typically pointed to by the static H host table in TCPIP with no DNS entries, etc.  They are spread around in3 multiple different subnets within the WAN though...s   Regards, Rick -- eH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _  _____                    http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst  --  INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsH | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems BT1000 GH       Office: 319/384-7016H  \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052               FAX: 319/384-7020   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:40:42 -0700 1 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com>e Subject: Unix CrypteO Message-ID: <8A6DD052D515D511A94E00805F578DF2114C8A@ny-exchange1.maintech1.com>s   A  question to the community:   I I have to receive files from a UNIX systema that have been encrypted by ac UNIX utility called CRYPT.  L Does anyone know if this utility (which I assume will decrypt also) has been ported to OpenVMS?  , Any help in this matter will be appreciated.   TIAh   Mike Farrell mfarrell@voltdelta.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:50:01 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>  Subject: RE: Unix Crypt L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FAD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Farrell, Michael [mailto:MFarrell@voltdelta.com]   > A  question to the community:c  = > I have to receive files from a UNIX systema that have been a > encrypted by a > UNIX utility called CRYPT.  @ > Does anyone know if this utility (which I assume will decrypt  > also) has been > ported to OpenVMS?  . > Any help in this matter will be appreciated.  I I don't know whether it's been ported.  The good news is it's simple, and K may just "re-compile" on VMS.  There is an implementation for Linux, listed K in the Linux software map, I think. (Sorry, it's been a while, I don't know K of a direct link for it...) that's more or less complete and stand-alone ifoK memory serves.  It's in straight C.  Chances are that given a copy of DEC CiJ and some spare time, you can easily port it. On the other hand, I've never tried ;)   Now the bad news is:  C a)  Crypt may be different between Unix platforms, since I think itkI generally uses a similar algorithm   to that with which the passwords aree
 encrypted.  I b)  Because of a, this version of crypt (and others) may very well simplyiI make a system call to encrypt/decrypt.  You may get stuck re-writing somev! Unix libraries to implement this.c   Regards,   Chrisa    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developera Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");. '   o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:51:57 -0400i+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>y Subject: Re: Unix CryptI# Message-ID: <sb320a17.026@aaas.org>   K I'm sure you could get the source and compile it, but why you'd want to I =e don't know.h  
 $man cryptF ENIGMA(1)               FreeBSD General Commands Manual              =	 ENIGMA(1)    NAME0      enigma, crypt - very simple file encryption   SYNOPSIS       enigma [-s] [-k] [password]      crypt [-s] [-k] [password]e   DESCRIPTION G      Enigma, also known as crypt is a very simple encryption program, =y working D      on a ``secret-key'' basis.  It operates as a filter, i. e. it = encrypts orcK      decrypts a stream of data from standard input, and writes the result =k toH      standard output.  It automatically detects whether the input data = streamJ      is already encrypted, and switches into decryption mode in this case.  K      There are several ways to provide the secret key to the program.  By =f de-hJ      fault, the program prompts the user on the controlling terminal for = the G      key, using getpass(3).  This is the only safe way of providing it.h  
    WarningJ      The cryptographic value of enigma is rather small.  This program is = onlyH      provided here for compatibility with other operating systems that = alsoH      provide an implementation.  For real encryption, refer to bdes(1) = (fromdJ      the DES distribution package), or pgp(1) (from the ports collection).I      However, restrictions for exporting, importing or using such tools =r mightlH      exist in some countries, so those stronger programs are not being = shipped 0      as part of the operating system by default.  I >>> "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> 06/21/2001 2:40:42 PM >>>t A  question to the community:   I I have to receive files from a UNIX systema that have been encrypted by au UNIX utility called CRYPT.  I Does anyone know if this utility (which I assume will decrypt also) has =  been ported to OpenVMS?  , Any help in this matter will be appreciated.   TIA    Mike Farrell mfarrell@voltdelta.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:59:24 +0200t2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: Unix Crypth; Message-ID: <3b32521c.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   , Christopher Smith (csmith@amdocs.com) wrote:4 > > Farrell, Michael <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> wrote:? > > I have to receive files from a UNIX systema that have been t- > > encrypted by a UNIX utility called CRYPT.  >eB > > Does anyone know if this utility (which I assume will decrypt % > > also) has been ported to OpenVMS?r >WK > I don't know whether it's been ported.  The good news is it's simple, andu% > may just "re-compile" on VMS. [...]i >p > Now the bad news is: >hE > a)  Crypt may be different between Unix platforms, since I think itiI > generally uses a similar algorithm to that with which the passwords areB > encrypted.  D I think the algorithms used mainly are TripleDES (8-byte hashed PWs,G salt in the first 2 characters), MD5 (hashed PW starting with "$1$" andS; ending in a "$"), and Blowfish (IIRC, starting with "$2$").M  K > b)  Because of a, this version of crypt (and others) may very well simplyo( > make a system call to encrypt/decrypt.  	 Decrypt??   E > You may get stuck re-writing some Unix libraries to implement this.-  E I have pure Perl implementation of the TripleDES crypt() [1]. It's onM@ CPAN [2] under the name of Crypt::UnixCrypt. Someone sent me his> implementation of MD5 (pure-perl also) for integration with my% module (which will take place RSN...)n  C So, if you use Perl, it really should be easy. Larry Wall rulez ;-)i   cu,d   Martin  A [1] I've ported a Java implementation, which in turn is a port ofs@     the original C code. Sorry, but I lost those sources when my     Jaz drive blew up.< [2] Comprehensive Perl Archive Network, http://www.CPAN.org/ -- lG  Your mouse has moved.     | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmera4  Windows must be restarted | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deH  for the change to take    |    http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/;  effect. Reboot now? [OK]  | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.dee   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:24:40 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Unix Crypt . Message-ID: <IuuY6.4$rc5.562@news.cpqcorp.net>   In article <8A6DD052D515D511A94E00805F578DF2114C8A@ny-exchange1.maintech1.com>, "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> writes:f  J :I have to receive files from a UNIX systema that have been encrypted by a :UNIX utility called CRYPT.B : M :Does anyone know if this utility (which I assume will decrypt also) has beenr :ported to OpenVMS?a  H   Yes, there are crypt tools around.  Here are a few that a quick search   turned up:  A     http://u6.mit.edu/afs/sipb/project/sipbsrc/src/zip/crypt/vms/kp     http://src.openresources.com/debian/src/math/HTML/S/xspread_3.1.1c.orig%20xspread-3.1.1c.orig%20crypt.c.html     etc.  J   If somebody has copy of a crypt tool or the crypt call that is prefered I   or that has a nice installation for OpenVMS or has pre-built objects orpI   images for OpenVMS, etc, please let me know and I'll add it to the nextuJ   OpenVMS Freeware -- recent changes in US regulations make it more likelyA   I can provide encryption capabilities via the OpenVMS Freeware.o  I   Also available is the Compaq Encryption for OpenVMS package, which usesi   the DES standards.  J   OpenVMS does NOT use a UNIX-compatible password encryption (um, hashing)	   scheme.h  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 00:58:59 GMT5 From: ccburgess@uqstu.jdstory.uq.edu.au (Ian Burgess)@% Subject: VMS applications on the web? . Message-ID: <9gu58j$obk$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>  C In a world where web access is becoming dominant, what do you thinkr of this as a project? ...   = In the past we have used menu systems based on real terminalsa? or terminal emulators.  This interface is foreign to newcomers,e9 so perhaps it is time to look at a web based alternative.r  N This project would provide tools so that an application developer could easilyK make existing VMS applications accessable to users who need only a browser.   ? The user needs to be authenticated, then selects an applicationq from a menu.  9 For an application run in batch the user would use a form .  [input data file] - browse locally to upload &  [email] - for log file or output file1  [parameters] - and maybe other Submit qualifiers:    [submit] button  ? The submit would use some of the capabilities of DEC Scheduler -@ to wrap the command procedure to be processed and deal with the 	 log file.a   Would it be useful?r Would it be feasible?s  ? This is an embryo only.  I wonder if it could be developed into 2 something that would give VMS a new lease of life?  D It is way beyond my resources, but I hope someone somewhere may find the idea useful. Ian Burgess  University of Queensland I.Burgess @ its . uq . edu . aun www.its.uq.edu.auc   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:16:11 -0400M- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>l) Subject: Re: VMS applications on the web?a- Message-ID: <3B32AA6B.B1B43523@bellsouth.net>i  N I have used this approach for a LOT of different applications -- even databaseQ (Rdb) access.  Although I have also spent time web-enabling a database (Rdb) thathR has some pretty impressive functionality.. including an authorization via email of data entered by other users.  O If your company is interested, I am currently available to take on another suchuO project and to save on expenses, I can do this remote.  The wonders of the net.v   Michael Austin% DBA Consultant -- Currently Availablel   Ian Burgess wrote:  E > In a world where web access is becoming dominant, what do you thinke > of this as a project? ...n >.? > In the past we have used menu systems based on real terminalsoA > or terminal emulators.  This interface is foreign to newcomers, ; > so perhaps it is time to look at a web based alternative.l >tP > This project would provide tools so that an application developer could easilyM > make existing VMS applications accessable to users who need only a browser.F >rA > The user needs to be authenticated, then selects an applicationd > from a menu. >u; > For an application run in batch the user would use a formw/ >  [input data file] - browse locally to upload ( >  [email] - for log file or output file3 >  [parameters] - and maybe other Submit qualifiersA >s >  [submit] button > @ > The submit would use some of the capabilities of DEC SchedulerA > to wrap the command procedure to be processed and deal with they > log file.n >s > Would it be useful?g > Would it be feasible?w >aA > This is an embryo only.  I wonder if it could be developed intor4 > something that would give VMS a new lease of life? >lF > It is way beyond my resources, but I hope someone somewhere may find > the idea useful.
 > Ian Burgess  > University of Queensland! > I.Burgess @ its . uq . edu . aur > www.its.uq.edu.aue   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 14:20:12 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)F Subject: VMS Software support access in queue with the wintel weenies?= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0106211320.74e72ed6@posting.google.com>7  ? I needed to place a software support call for VMS on one of ourrF systems today.  Called the number, option 2 for software (note that PCE support is a different selection), and got a recording that wait timen would be 15 minutes.  F I don't need to call often, but I've never had anything near this everE happen before when calling the support number.  At least not anywhere@. other than the consumer peecee support side...  C Is this just the way it is these days?  Do we now stand in the samecD line as all the blue-screened presario and proliant users?  Or did I  just hit an abnormally bad time?  F 15 minutes!  Sheesh!  Its like the time I had to call the Q because my@ mom-in-laws q-box (she bought it without asking me :) had died a horrible software death...   Rich Jordant7 feeling like a peecee user instead of a VMS customer...e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:05:51 -0400-* From: Sylvain Plante <splante@nrcan.gc.ca> Subject: X emulation over a PC+ Message-ID: <3B32458F.8CD55663@nrcan.gc.ca>i  
 Hi everobody,     A I'm trying to install an X emulator on a PC to be able to connect- our OpenVMS server.-  : Does anyboby knows a good one, to display DecWindows 1.2-3 with all the fonts and ...   Sylvain Plante splante@nrcan.gc.cai   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:19:38 -0400f( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>" Subject: Re: X emulation over a PC) Message-ID: <3B3248CA.470AB0@bigfoot.com>o  , Exceed from Hummingbird is an excellent one:  8 http://www.hummingbird.com/products/nc/exceed/index.html   HM   Sylvain Plante wrote:a >  > Hi everobody,k > C > I'm trying to install an X emulator on a PC to be able to connect  > our OpenVMS server.s > < > Does anyboby knows a good one, to display DecWindows 1.2-3 > with all the fonts and ... >  > Sylvain Plante > splante@nrcan.gc.cae   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:04:28 GMTt+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>o" Subject: Re: X emulation over a PC4 Message-ID: <993153509.797634@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message0# news:3B3248CA.470AB0@bigfoot.com...o. > Exceed from Hummingbird is an excellent one: >r: > http://www.hummingbird.com/products/nc/exceed/index.html >r > HM >   L I use Reflections X from WRQ. I find it good. http://wrq.com. I think theres5 a downloadable demo version availble on the web site.e   Cheers   Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:26:48 +0100e  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>- Subject: Re: XML Import / Export for OpenVMS?d+ Message-ID: <VA.000003d9.003e3b1c@sture.ch>y  B In article <fHPRCLgLQXUy@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, Wayne Sewell wrote:? > From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.563109.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)0 > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsn/ > Subject: Re: XML Import / Export for OpenVMS?s  > Date: 21 Jun 2001 07:25:58 CDT > p > In article <ex0Y6.172674$I5.49521353@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:" > > Here's a new one: XML for RMS. > > , > >  http://www.accelr8.com/vms/xml4rms.html > > N > > I don't use the product, I was just made aware of it the other day.  YMMV, > > TNSTAAFL, ETC. > >  > N > That should be TANSTAAFL (There *Ain't* No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).  :-) >                 ^  >   Whoops. Double negative spotted!   So where is this free lunch? ___o
 Paul Sture Switzerland?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:52:43 GMTo From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <78g4jtkf59m4ea7hgnt8bipvgphg3ovr2k@4ax.com>  7 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:31:36 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >Bob Koehler wrote:y >> a^ >> In article <3B30C85E.CDC09E68@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> >M >> > The "point", if there is one, of so-called Sport-Utility Vehicles has tos% >> > do with the perception of safetys >>  K >> A perception blown away again by Consumers Union, if only for one model.  > H >Well, yes and no. Remember - we're talking about a "passive" situation.F >That is, if an SUV hits another SUV, unless it's in traffic at speed,A >the roll characteristic is not as important as crash resistance.t > D >Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, as< >having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.  F what I'd read recently,  is that SUVs are 2 times more likely to roll,B than a typical car,  and 16x more likely to kill the other guy in 1 an accident (i assume the other is driving a car)1  9 if the other guy was also driving an identical SUV also, t! both are worse off, in general.   ' (greater mass/energy/momentum involved)i  = I'm curious to see how (if!) this will affect insurance ratesu
 over time ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:09:59 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B324686.115E9527@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:E > Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, asD= > having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.i  K I would not be surprised if this were statistics that were squewed and that 4 the reason was other than the shape/size of the car.  : It is like saying that if you're black, you're a criminal.  K Has it ever occured to you that the folks who drive smaller cars tend to besM younger and folks who drive the big SUV boats tends to be parents who are notsN "macho" on the road ? The younger folks tend to go faster, take more risks and9 are less patient on the road, hence higher accident rate.T  N Consider that how well you survive a crash has more to do with how much energy* the car can absorb and not the car's size.  L Furthermore, if your big steel tank has an accident and you survive, but theK occupant of the other car is paraplegic because you drove your big chunk of G heavy metal into the car, how will you feel for the rest of your life ?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:01:49 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <OF7A31C700.63E74142-ON03256A72.006856CF@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  : Well, I couldnt imagine the insurance values for Hummers !* They are fabulous but extremly expensive !8 If I had a good, good, good salary (Compaq USA Employee): I could imagine myself buying one - the problem is when we> import cars here in Brazil the prices come in double  in US$ .       Regardsk   FC        0 LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com em 21/06/2001 15:52:43  + Favor responder a LBohan@dbc.spam_less..como             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy        Assunto: Re: [OT] Climate change    7 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:31:36 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >Bob Koehler wrote:h >>> >> In article <3B30C85E.CDC09E68@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >> >J >> > The "point", if there is one, of so-called Sport-Utility Vehicles has to% >> > do with the perception of safetya >>K >> A perception blown away again by Consumers Union, if only for one model.p >nH >Well, yes and no. Remember - we're talking about a "passive" situation.F >That is, if an SUV hits another SUV, unless it's in traffic at speed,A >the roll characteristic is not as important as crash resistance.I >uD >Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, as< >having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.  F what I'd read recently,  is that SUVs are 2 times more likely to roll,A than a typical car,  and 16x more likely to kill the other guy inn1 an accident (i assume the other is driving a car)   8 if the other guy was also driving an identical SUV also, both are worse off, in general.n' (greater mass/energy/momentum involved)   = I'm curious to see how (if!) this will affect insurance ratesy
 over time ...l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:49:11 -0400=' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change( Message-ID: <9gtitr$m4n$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B324686.115E9527@videotron.ca... > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:G > > Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, ash? > > having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.t > H > I would not be surprised if this were statistics that were squewed and that6 > the reason was other than the shape/size of the car.  I The usual explanation given is that the difference results primarily fromtJ crash data involving the collision of a smaller vehicle with a larger one.G In that case, the smaller one is indeed at a disadvantage:  it, and itsaJ occupants, will suffer greater acceleration forces in the crash than occurF in the larger vehicle (to understand this, consider the collision of aK ping-pong ball with a football:  the football's velocity suffers negligible H change, while the ping-pong ball, if the collision is direct rather thanF glancing and large elastic in nature, experiences a change in velocityK approximately equal to twice the collision speed - or a change equal to thee7 collision speed in the case of an inelastic collision).W  K By contrast, if both vehicles collide with a bridge abutment, the danger to 2 the occupants of each will be just about the same.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 12:44:44 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <DBnNblAyvzg1@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <3B324686.115E9527@videotron.ca>,  3     JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  > N > Furthermore, if your big steel tank has an accident and you survive, but theM > occupant of the other car is paraplegic because you drove your big chunk ofsI > heavy metal into the car, how will you feel for the rest of your life ?i  K     Is it a given that an accident between an SUV and a small car is alwaysf the SUV drivers fault?  K     Are you suggesting that I should feel OK if I make someone a paraplegic I by hitting him with a small car, or are you just assuming I'll be dead inc' that case and so will be beyond caring?u  G     It's really fascinating to watch the irrational hatred of SUVs that H shows up in this thread. My SUV weighs about the same and gets about theK same gas mileage as a "full size" car from the 70s or earlier - or a modernlM day pickup truck - but I've seen noone indicate how evil people who drive olduJ cars or pickup trucks must be - that's a vitriol reserved for SUV drivers.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 20:08:11 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change+ Message-ID: <9gtk7b$sf3$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>-  ' In article <3B321358.A14F159A@fsi.net>,24  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: |>F |> Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, as> |> having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.  @ True.  And I would gladly give up my SUV if Hudson came back and@ started building new 1954 Super Jet's again.  Now there was true survivability.  :-)y   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   /   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:26:55 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)%  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change3 Message-ID: <$cHneZEO0dXY@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  R In article <9gtitr$m4n$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > M > By contrast, if both vehicles collide with a bridge abutment, the danger toa4 > the occupants of each will be just about the same.  C Nope, generally cars will protect their occupants better than smallpD trucks of any type.  Every now and then someone asks why pickups and: SUVs aren't required to have the same level of protection.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation<= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouplE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:44:27 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B325CA4.742AC699@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:L > crash data involving the collision of a smaller vehicle with a larger one.I > In that case, the smaller one is indeed at a disadvantage:  it, and itsaL > occupants, will suffer greater acceleration forces in the crash than occur  H This is correct assuming both vehicles are of equal rigidity. But if theJ smaller vehicle is built smart, its structure will absorb much more of theN impact and hence tranmit less of the energy/acceleration to the occupants that the large rigid tank/SUV.o  J And the design of the habitable volume  as well as safety features such asN seat belts and airbags will also make a very big difference. The way the seatsR are designed and how the occupants are positioned will also make a big difference.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:26:12 -0400i' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change( Message-ID: <9gtojr$qq7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B325CA4.742AC699@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:I > > crash data involving the collision of a smaller vehicle with a largerl one.K > > In that case, the smaller one is indeed at a disadvantage:  it, and itsaH > > occupants, will suffer greater acceleration forces in the crash than occura >u? > This is correct assuming both vehicles are of equal rigidity.n   No, it is correct - period.-    But if the-L > smaller vehicle is built smart, its structure will absorb much more of theK > impact and hence tranmit less of the energy/acceleration to the occupants3 that > the large rigid tank/SUV.   I You are confusing what happens when you hit an immovable object such as aeG bridge abutment with what happens when two movable objects of different(J masses collide (though there's no particular reason to believe that in theK former case a larger vehicle is built any less 'smart' than a smaller one).s  L In the latter case, if one of the objects is highly energy-absorbing (makingD the collision far less elastic), there is indeed a diminution of theL acceleration forces - but that diminution applies to the occupants in *both*H vehicles, and the *relative* accelerations experienced still differ (theG higher ones being experienced by the occupants of the lighter vehicle).r   >eL > And the design of the habitable volume  as well as safety features such asJ > seat belts and airbags will also make a very big difference. The way the seatsuH > are designed and how the occupants are positioned will also make a big difference.l  D These factors can indeed make a difference in safety, but there's noJ particular reason to believe that a smaller vehicle's design is any betterL than a larger vehicle's in these respects (and in fact if the larger vehicleH is roomier inside, occupants will have a lower probability of contacting> anything other than an air bag, all other things being equal).  K I like small vehicles, I consider them more ecologically responsible to usedL than large vehicles, and I wouldn't drive a large vehicle unless I needed toH for some specific reason.  But I don't let my preferences interfere with& understanding the facts of the matter.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:43:12 -0400i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011843120001@user-2iveate.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <C0vR$A$jj0e4@eisner.encompasserve.org>,-. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  I > Contrast this to a 70's something Datsun B210.  A freind rolled one andi) > was told they had a reputation for it. f  I I drove one of those for several years.  It did not seem very rollable topJ me, at least until the struts started to go bad.  Shocks/struts and properB tire inflation have a LOT to do with keeping a car from rolling.    F The car didn't have enough guts to achieve much speed, except downhillG with a tailwind.  The B210 was a perfect example of a car that couldn'tn2 keep itself out of trouble in fast traffic.  Yuck!  < > neither did the early 60's Corvair until Ralf wrote it up.  G Actually, much of what "Ralf" wrote about the Corvair to get his careerlJ started turned out to be bogus.  Later research showed the car to be about= as safe as others of its day.  Just being a do-gooder doesn'tl+ automatically make one honest, or accurate.u   -- w Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comw   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:46:37 -0400u2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011846380001@user-2iveate.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <HmRbLpuo+XFG@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:    PG > It seems almost all the "new" light rail (built in the last couple ofo. > decades) in the US is running at a profit.    J How is that profit measured?  Was the capital for construction private, orI did it come from some taxpayers somewhere?  I'd be very happy to see someuJ passenger rail systems succeed while standing on their own merits, withoutE subsidies.  Around this part of NY state, they don't even come close.    -- / Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:51:40 -0400g2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2106011851400001@user-2iveav3.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <VoNf2ph$oaYt@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:    J > At least with a fusion reactor (and I look forward to them), if anythingI > goes wrong the whole thing stops faster than you can think about it, noe3 > Chernobyl style melt downs like fission reactors.e  J There are fission reactor designs that have the same feature.  If they getH hotter, they get less reactive and tend to slow down.  I don't think any2 of these newer designs have been built in the U.S.  H > Whatever the chamber is made of, ways can be found to deal with those I > as they come off line.  This is a much better option than breathing the-6 > stuff the fossil fuel plants are putting in our air.  I That's for sure.  Reactor waste is nasty, but there's so _little_ of it.  + Coal, and coal ash, come by the train-load.    -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:27:47 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>L  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change' Message-ID: <3B32BB33.5B22F60C@fsi.net>a   JF Mezei wrote:4 >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:G > > Small cars - indeed, most cars - are viewed, for right or wrong, ase? > > having less crash resistance than larger, heavier vehicles.l > M > I would not be surprised if this were statistics that were squewed and thatM6 > the reason was other than the shape/size of the car.  G Well, remember: we're talking about perceptions here, which rarely bear  any resemblence to reality.v  < > It is like saying that if you're black, you're a criminal. > M > Has it ever occured to you that the folks who drive smaller cars tend to beoO > younger and folks who drive the big SUV boats tends to be parents who are not  > "macho" on the road ?g  E Experience locally tends to conflict with that observation: the oldereD folks either still drive their 60's or newer cars because they can'tG afford to pay more for an SUV than they paid for the home they've livedaG in for the past 60+ years (my folks bought theirs circa. 1941 for $8800 D - how many new cars can be had at that price in 2001?) while stat.'sD show that younger folks tend to drive and spend more recklessly thanG their middle-aged counterparts in many cases. Seeing youngsters drivingpA $24K+ SUVs is not at all unusual, especially in the more affluent' suburbs.  : > The younger folks tend to go faster, take more risks and; > are less patient on the road, hence higher accident rate.   H ...regardless of what they drive ... and yes, that does skew the numbers in some cases.   P > Consider that how well you survive a crash has more to do with how much energy, > the car can absorb and not the car's size.  H I should think those two factors would be inextricable related in directB proportion: small, lighter (x) can absorb less energy than larger,A heavier (x) (substitute what you will for "x": car, boat, person,u airplane, ...)  fN > Furthermore, if your big steel tank has an accident and you survive, but theM > occupant of the other car is paraplegic because you drove your big chunk ofoI > heavy metal into the car, how will you feel for the rest of your life ?1  7 That depends on who blew the red light, stop sign, etc.    -- i David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsg http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:08:59 +0000 (UTC)h1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis)a2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9gtd7r$8j3$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  * In article <9gtc4h$7u7$1@lisa.gemair.com>,0 Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote:  B >Parity.  Yes, parity would be nice.  Why is it that Unions enjoy C >a protected right to collude to set prices where employers do not?c  F In a nutshell because employers are generally corporations, created byG the state, while unions consist of men created by God.  The activity of14 each are rightfully regulated only by their creator.  M Strawman alert.  Unions are voluntary associations whos members contractually0J agree to sell their labor for certain rates.  That's roughly equivalent toH having pork bellies get together and agree to not allow themselves to beD sold for less than X, not to the sellers of pork bellies setting the price of the bellies.   C Why should a man have to sell his labor at a price at which he does$H not wish to sell it?  A man cannot enter into a voluntary agreement withH other men to set the prices of their time?  You would make that illegal?   greg -- . Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.edud   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:00:05 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B324434.BC9C0E23@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:sJ > Woolworth's was a venerable chain, in some ways the Wal-Mart of its day.J > But they forgot how to keep their customers happy, and they went away...  K Woolworths is alive and well in Australia and New Zealand. It and Coles areiJ the two major food store chains. (where they also happen to sell underwearK etc). Some of the larger Wollies also have hardware stuff, but the chain is  primarily a food chain.r  L Not sure if the Aussie Coles is in any realted to the Coles bookstore chain.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:13:10 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B324745.2B2FD184@videotron.ca>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > That has little to do with culture and more to do with the Americand' > education system being in a shambles.i  I Sorry, but that is part of a nation's culture. The education system is in J great part responsible for defining the state of mind of the citizens of aL country. Lack of education on the existance of land beyond the USA's bordersS yields a population that is very ignorant of what happens in the rest of the world.E  M Compare BBC world news with ABC/NBC/CBS world news and you'll quickly see how ) much of the world the USA doesn't notice.    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 15:14:45 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)s2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <9gth35$es8$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <9gtd7r$8j3$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>,2 Gregory Travis <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:+ >In article <9gtc4h$7u7$1@lisa.gemair.com>,a1 >Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote:: >tC >>Parity.  Yes, parity would be nice.  Why is it that Unions enjoy  D >>a protected right to collude to set prices where employers do not? > G >In a nutshell because employers are generally corporations, created bysH >the state, while unions consist of men created by God.  The activity of5 >each are rightfully regulated only by their creator.e >x  I Well, you've explained under what authority these regulations come under,eH but you haven't justified the disparity in the treatment under law.  You1 were the one who suggested that there was parity.l  H It's clearly not just free entities contracting for what they will.  No,M on one side, the people have stepped in and set limits, extra-contracturally,2 on what one side is allowed.  ; I can agree that the people have the right to set limits onm" corporations, but it's not parity.  @ This "sovereign right of man" is a pretty ideal and one that I'dC certainly like to see in effect, but you won't find that in Americae> these days.  There are any number of regulations that apply to  "sovereign men" here in America.  N >Strawman alert.  Unions are voluntary associations whos members contractuallyK >agree to sell their labor for certain rates.  That's roughly equivalent tocI >having pork bellies get together and agree to not allow themselves to be E >sold for less than X, not to the sellers of pork bellies setting thee >price of the bellies. >   D You'll find that even individuals, created by God, aren't allowed to9 get together to agree on prices for goods that they sell.t  D >Why should a man have to sell his labor at a price at which he doesI >not wish to sell it?  A man cannot enter into a voluntary agreement with I >other men to set the prices of their time?  You would make that illegal?n >o  F Indeed, why not?  Let's abolish such arbitrary limits as Minimum Wage G while we're at it, shall we?  Surely, entities created by God shouldn't-G be subjugated to arbitrary limits on which they are allowed to contractBD their services.  And, don't suggest that this is only a stricture onD the employer.  If I wanted to offer my services for less in order toE out compete others, shouldn't I, as a sovereign, be allowed to offer r as little or as much as I like?d  D Of course, if some poor slob doesn't want to belong to the Union andE to freely sell his labor into some shop where a Union is established,cF he'll find that a Cartel has gotten there first and has set prices andF even forces the employer to pay into a fund for the maintenance of the# Cartel and it's political programs.h  E Oh, but that's just the free association of the Union members to makedD a contract with the employer to shut out non-Union "sovereigns" fromE employment.  Right.  If a group of individuals, not corporations mindaK you, but individual employers, all sovereigns with rights granted by their %D Creator, tried to only offer employment under terms that they agreedE upon, they'd be subject to restraint-of-trade and collusive business d
 practices.   >grego >--  >Gregory Travisn' >Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML)i
 >812-855-5091h >gtravis@indiana.edu   -Jordan Hendersonb jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:33:54 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Travis)u2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?0 Message-ID: <9gti72$93k$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>  * In article <9gth35$es8$1@lisa.gemair.com>,0 Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote:  I >It's clearly not just free entities contracting for what they will.  No, N >on one side, the people have stepped in and set limits, extra-contracturally, >on what one side is allowed.h  ; Can you provide us with an example?  I'm not sure I see it.@  E >You'll find that even individuals, created by God, aren't allowed to4: >get together to agree on prices for goods that they sell.  D Except when those goods are synonymous with themselves.  You're alsoF ignoring the fact that there isn't just a single union.  Employers areB free to purchase labor from any number of unions, each of which isA in competition with the other.  There's no price fixing possible.u  6 >If I wanted to offer my services for less in order toF >out compete others, shouldn't I, as a sovereign, be allowed to offer   >as little or as much as I like?  H Indeed you may.  You'll find that you receive no penalty for holding out your labor at $0.50 an hour.  E >Of course, if some poor slob doesn't want to belong to the Union andeF >to freely sell his labor into some shop where a Union is established,G >he'll find that a Cartel has gotten there first and has set prices and G >even forces the employer to pay into a fund for the maintenance of theR$ >Cartel and it's political programs.  D Same as if some poor corporation tried to sell their product where aD competing product already had a contract to sell a similar one.  ForJ instance, where I work, the CocaCola corporation has entered, voluntarily,F into an agreement to provide my employer with non-alcoholic beverages.  F The Pepsi corporation cannot sell to my employer no matter how cheaplyF they are willing to do so until the terms of my employer's contract is( up with Coke.  Same as a union contract.  F >Oh, but that's just the free association of the Union members to makeE >a contract with the employer to shut out non-Union "sovereigns" fromt >employment.  
 See above.   greg --   Gregory Travis& Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML) 812-855-5091 gtravis@indiana.edub   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jun 2001 19:53:35 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?+ Message-ID: <9gtjbv$sf3$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>s  , In article <7koB6M4YHQ4f@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>,4  nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes: |> iM |>    I'm often amazed that the US news media, when showing an interview witheI |> a person from another English speaking country ( UK, Australia ) feelsiK |> they have to include subtitles so the audience will know what the persono |> is saying.   H Where do you find this??  I have never seen subtitles used even when theK person is speaking a none-english language.  Usually they just dub a reallyrJ bad translation over the top, but if your lucky enough of the real speakerD gets through to let you know how bad the translation really is.  :-)  J |>            If the networks feel ( perhaps correctly ) that the audienceK |> in incapable of deciphering these mild variations in pronuniciation it'shM |> not surprising they don't want to show entertainment from those countries.r  I I have never seen a subtitle on popular american TV.  Unless you considergJ closed-captioning to be subtitles.  I know they don't put subtitles on The Crocodile Hunter.  :-)   bill c   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:28:05 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler):2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <hh11gNiPL4MD@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  _ In article <9gt3m7$lcd$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: . > In article <3B3108D6.7DD839E1@videotron.ca>,2 >  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote: N > |> > Re-read what I wrote above.  It is a deliberate decision on the part of9 > |> > most other countries to not export their culture. p > |> eM > |> In all fairness to the rest of the world, it is a LOT harder for foreigntP > |> culture to penetrate the USA market than for USA culture to penetrate other > |> markets.  > F > Why??  Things like the INTERNET have pretty much leveled the playingG > field, unless you are only interested in how much profit you can make  > from exporting culture.a  @ Nope, the Internet is overwhelmingly in English, American style.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupmE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:41:13 -0700j* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?4 Message-ID: <W%sY6.4324$Ib.466017@news1.primary.net>  > "Gregory Travis" <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message* news:9gta65$8es$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu... >u9 > Germany, France, Sweden, etc.  All nominally socialist.  >aG > >I for one would like to know the ratio of immigration between the USi andiA > >Belgium.  How many US citizens seek a better life in Brussels?a > H > Can't do it.  Belgian law is pretty restrictive regarding immigration. >t> So paradise on earth is defined as a socialist state that barsH immigration. That explains why North Korea needs such a huge military to keep everyone out.  D I've seen these lists of "best living standards" before.  In generalD they are based on the degree of government services handed out, withE little regard to annoying factors such as unemployment rate, personal.E freedom or economic opportunity for entrepeneurs.  I think I'd rathernE know what countries ranked below the US, in case I'm missing out on atC better place to live.  Surely there is still a place for us wannabet# robber baron capitalist exploiters?a  C I'd like to know how per capita productivity is measured too.  Doesh? Belgium exceed the US because of, or in spite of, computers andhC automation?  Will the spread of the internet doom their standard oftE living?  Or maybe the per capita ratio of VMS users is so much highert there...    Jack Peacock,   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 16:41:02 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)t2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?* Message-ID: <9gtm4u$m7p$1@lisa.gemair.com>  0 In article <9gti72$93k$1@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu>,2 Gregory Travis <greg@lewis.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:+ >In article <9gth35$es8$1@lisa.gemair.com>,-1 >Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote:  >0J >>It's clearly not just free entities contracting for what they will.  No,O >>on one side, the people have stepped in and set limits, extra-contracturally,  >>on what one side is allowed. >l< >Can you provide us with an example?  I'm not sure I see it. >   K One side, the Unions, are allowed to collude, the other side the Employers, - whether they be corporations or not, are not.e  F >>You'll find that even individuals, created by God, aren't allowed to; >>get together to agree on prices for goods that they sell.h > : >Except when those goods are synonymous with themselves.    B Not themselves.  Slavery, even temporary indentures are illegal.  ' Why the special exception for services?e  = In any case, individuals are only allowed the exception from tA collusion when in a Union setting.  Tell you what, if you and I, e@ as individuals bid competitively on a piece of work, but, behind? the scenes got together on what we would offer, do you think wec6 could avoid bid-rigging charges if we were discovered?  F >                                                          You're alsoG >ignoring the fact that there isn't just a single union.  Employers are0C >free to purchase labor from any number of unions, each of which isoB >in competition with the other.  There's no price fixing possible. >g  H Generally, there's only one Union available for a given trade in a givenH area.  Indeed, a Union may insist that a give employer only deal with itA worldwide for a given trade.  Such tying of contracts over large aH geographical areas by corporations has been struck down under Anti-Trust legislation.  7 >>If I wanted to offer my services for less in order tohG >>out compete others, shouldn't I, as a sovereign, be allowed to offer s! >>as little or as much as I like?f >oI >Indeed you may.  You'll find that you receive no penalty for holding outc >your labor at $0.50 an hour.e >   G Except that certain employers aren't allowed to pay me that and thus, IeE have no competitive advantage.  Oh, I see, I'm free to contract, it'soD just all those who I would contract with that are constrained.  Such freedom!  F >>Of course, if some poor slob doesn't want to belong to the Union andG >>to freely sell his labor into some shop where a Union is established,,H >>he'll find that a Cartel has gotten there first and has set prices andH >>even forces the employer to pay into a fund for the maintenance of the% >>Cartel and it's political programs.n >eE >Same as if some poor corporation tried to sell their product where aeE >competing product already had a contract to sell a similar one.  For K >instance, where I work, the CocaCola corporation has entered, voluntarily,oG >into an agreement to provide my employer with non-alcoholic beverages.  >1G >The Pepsi corporation cannot sell to my employer no matter how cheaplyaG >they are willing to do so until the terms of my employer's contract is$) >up with Coke.  Same as a union contract.< >c  E The difference is that the Coca-Cola corporation isn't a Cartel.  If tE Coca-Cola and 7-Up decided to shut out Pepsi, that would be found to  E be collusive.  A Union represents a group of free entities allowed to - contract individually, and are thus a Cartel.   E If the Union wanted to form a corporation and employ the members and bG sell the combined services, that would be a different issue altogether.aH Of course, if this were the situation, the Union and not the corporationE would be responsible for all the tenants of "Unfair Labor Practices".h  = Look, I'm not really Anti-Union.  All I objected to was your oB characterization that this was just a contractural situation whereF the corporation and Unions had parity.  I feel that Unions are allowedE to collude in ways that we don't allow individuals or corporations in? similar situations.  t  D Is this a good thing or a bad thing?  I dunno.  I think it should be" recognized for what it is, though.  G >>Oh, but that's just the free association of the Union members to make0F >>a contract with the employer to shut out non-Union "sovereigns" from
 >>employment.: >0 >See above.m >F >greg< >--  >Gregory Traviso' >Advanced Network Management Lab (ANML)f
 >812-855-5091? >gtravis@indiana.edu   -Jordan Hendersonc jordan@greenapple.comw   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2001 17:41:17 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)h2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?3 Message-ID: <o8ULS4riYWQD@eisner.encompasserve.org>I  H > I remember 99 luftballons too.  Interestingly, although I doubt anyoneI > could understand it, I have actually heard the german version played on,H > one of the local rock stations.  But then, it is probably not any lessI > comprehendable than the english language stuff that passes for music on-? > the same station.  I liked the German version better as well.i  I When I worked in radio I used to mix the German and American versions of tM 99 Luftballons.  Same with the Falco and ATF versions of Der Commisar (sp).   L I used to mix Trio's Da-Da-Da (which had some German in it) with something,  too, but I can't remember what.i  R > |> Of course, with what's his name Duchovny blackmailing the show to move to LosR > |> Angeles, I have stopped watching it because it lost its "Vancouver" flair and- > |> is just now yet another show shot in LA.e > K > Well, that's Hollywood for you.  I must admit, I don't watch a lot of newrM > television and most of what I watch may be "American" TV, but it's all madeu > in Canada.  G The main reason is production costs.  Location, grips, craft services, -F etc, all are much cheaper in Vancover.  Once the show starts making a H ton of money, and the actors start getting outrageous sums just to show F up, the basic production costs aren't as big a piece of the pie.  You F can then move the production back to LA, since the big chunk of money 8 for the show is for the writers, producers and actors.     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:42:28 -0400u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <3B32A283.D9AEE3D5@videotron.ca>   Jack Peacock wrote:oF > I've seen these lists of "best living standards" before.  In general@ > they are based on the degree of government services handed out  N NO. They are based on the average standard of living for everyone. The USA hasM a portion of the population that had perbaps the best standard of living, butwL there is a huge chunk that have a standard of living that is way down there, with no health care etc etc.  S Also, standard of living includes access to quality education, crime rates etc etc.r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.343 ************************