1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 23 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 345       Contents:& Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation DECnet Phase IV router Re: DECnet Phase IV router Re: Disk Farm Problem  FORTRAN question Re: FORTRAN question Re: FORTRAN question Re: FORTRAN question Re: FORTRAN question Re: FORTRAN question/ Free Rdb [was Re: VMS applications on the web?] " Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!" Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!" Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!" Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!  Re: Latest news- Alpha for sale?$ Re: MACRO:include externals how to ?$ Re: MACRO:include externals how to ?$ Re: MACRO:include externals how to ? Marketing Rantings #3  Re: Marketing Rantings #3  Re: OpenVMS Applications PL1 port listener program?D Power Supplies: VAXstation 4000/60 and (yes AND) DEC 3000/(300 IRRC)H Re: Power Supplies: VAXstation 4000/60 and (yes AND) DEC 3000/(300 IRRC)J Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSJ Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS P Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS G Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy P Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy   VMS buP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVN Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy     VMSP RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS VP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VM Re: Sadness  Re: sadness  Re: sadness  Re: sadness  Re: sadness ( Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS Submitting Batch Jobs  Re: Submitting Batch Jobs  Re: Submitting Batch Jobs $ The end of Computer Associates ?????( Re: The end of Computer Associates ?????( Re: The end of Computer Associates ????? Re: tt- Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7 - Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7   Re: VMS applications on the web?' Re: Where to obtain VMS2IMAP or similar  Re: X25 and FTAM problem Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change  Re: [OT] Climate change ) Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ? : Re: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:01:30 +0200 + From: "Robert de Boer" <r.e.deboer@kpn.com> / Subject: Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives . Message-ID: <9h08sn$a6j$1@info.service.rug.nl>  1 You should also look at crc and tape-compression.   L The TZ89 can do his one crc so the backup-utility on VMS has not to do that.7 The backup command qualifier /nocrc takes care of this.   J Tape-compression can also reduce the time needed for writing to tape. This0 is also a backup qualiier but I can remember it.  . For backup to tape I use the block size 65435.   Robert de Boer: "Duncan Macdonald" <dmacdonald@cix.co.uk> wrote in message= news:memo.20010621225330.27709A@dmacdonald.compulink.co.uk... : > I found out the hard way that the speed of backup to and9 > from TZ89 tape drives is heavily affected by the backup > > block size. Going from the default block size (8192 for tape: > save sets) to a block size of 24576 reduced the time for> > backups and restores by well over 50% (9 hours down to under: > 4 hours). This was on an Alphastation 500 with VMS 7.2 .= > If any of you are having problems with the time taken to do > > backups, it may be worthwhile to see what block size you are< > using on tape and increasing it if you are still using the
 > default.> > (The speedup percentage was almost the same on a disk with a< > few huge files and on another disk with thousands of small7 > files. All backups and restores were full image - not  > incremental.)    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 14:30:06 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? 3 Message-ID: <+4t4cN9fXkRJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In comp.arch article <88525dde.0106220957.73f83c28@posting.google.com>, Nova <nova@pacific.net.sg> writes:  7 > Subject: Alpha vs IA-64 survival decision: Your Take? " > Date: 22 Jun 2001 10:57:56 -0700) > Organization: http://groups.google.com/  > Lines: 21 ? > Message-ID: <88525dde.0106220957.73f83c28@posting.google.com> # > NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.169.41.162 . > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Q > X-Trace: posting.google.com 993232676 1222 127.0.0.1 (22 Jun 2001 17:57:56 GMT) , > X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com- > NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2001 17:57:56 GMT 1 > Xref: dfw-artgen.news.verio.net comp.arch:36546  >  > Hi Everyone,   > C > Let's assume that today, right now, a large company has to decide ? > between Alpha and IA-64, now and for the long term, on purely F > technical merits in terms of CPU and system performance scalability,A > processor architecture, OS quality etc. I'm talking not about a ) > customer, but about the vendor himself.  > G > Do you think that, backed by another vendor and not Compaq, Alpha has D > a better chance? Imagine its technical excellence, coupled with anE > owner who is really committed to it, and knows the art of marketing  > and selling? > E > Do you think that, given the right resources and up-to-date process F > technology, Alpha can keep its advantage over IA-64 etc beyond EV-8?G > Are there any architectural roadblocks in Alpha that prevent say EV-8 F > from staying faster than Madison IA-64 or Alpha in general vs IA-64? > G > Trust me, it is a very interesting question knowing what's coming...   >  > Nova   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:09:22 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B3397DF.2CDC7219@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > I have been hinting at changes articulated in a 12 June transformation memo.N > I suspect the transformation stuff that will be announced, will be announced > within, say, a week.    
 Mr Matco,   N I am curious as to how your intelligence can be disseminated to your customersN without raising the eyebrows of Securities and Exchange Commissions ? Wouldn't. that constitude some form of insider trading ?  K Suppose you knew (for the sake of discussion) that Compaq was going to sell L Alpha to AMD because of your covert spying inside of Compaq. Would revealingN this information to your customers put you in some form of danger from the SEC? pont of view because it would be consider insider information ?   M > I am not in a position to comment on the rumour to which you are referring. J > What I can say is that EV7 is on track, Marvel systems are on track, andA > Tru64 and OpenVMS customers have nothing to be concerned about.   M Did you purposefully omit NSK from that ??? :-) :-) ;-) :-) :-) :-) (Hey, you 6 have to expect us to try to read between the lines...)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:41:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? + Message-ID: <3B339F63.1588BD0@videotron.ca>   ; Larry Kilgallen quoted someone else from another newsgroup: I > > Do you think that, backed by another vendor and not Compaq, Alpha has F > > a better chance? Imagine its technical excellence, coupled with anG > > owner who is really committed to it, and knows the art of marketing  > > and selling?  N I say yes. Compaq has done nothing to leverage the Alpha asset. It is a littleM jewel that is kept hidden in the chest and not made to work for shareholders. M So a company that is capable of buying Alpha, making a very public commitment J quickly followed by actions/advertising and cheap alpha based computers to3 fill the gap would gain credibility rather quickly.   F And such a company with agressive marketing migth not hesitate to makeM incremental improvements in speed as processes/yields get better and better.  L While these may not represent "real" improvements, they would enable the newK owner to advertise the "new and improved" Alpha much more often than Compaq < could with its release of a new Alpha every couple of years.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:35:32 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? L Message-ID: <OF1C2AD757.C854F5CA-ON03256A73.004A66EF@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Hmmmm......   % I am imagining myself changing email:   # fabio_ibm@ or fabio_intel@ or .....   2 Should be better ........ fabio_openvmsconsortium@   Regards    FC        J Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> em 22/06/2001 09:34:59   Favor responder a Simon Clubley 4       <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       1 Assunto: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?     . On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:13:57 -0400, in article? <sVEY6.7770$Ic.758851@news20.bellglobal.com>, Neil Rieck wrote:  > F >Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? Let's hope this is only a rumor! > ( >http://www.theinquirer.net/22060101.htm >   F As I am sure you have seen, Terry Shannon has been strongly hinting atJ major changes at CPQ. Although I understand why Terry has been withholdingF this information (after all, he does run a business based on supplyingG information) I wonder if he could supply a timescale for a possible CPQ < announcement ? (Ie: today, early next week, next month, etc)  I As for the rumour, if it turns out to be true, then (IMHO) this is a good  orK bad thing depending on who it goes to and the conditions under which it has 
 been sold.   Simon.   --; Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP K Worrying idea #101: What if Microsoft goes into the Ada compiler business ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:49:22 +0100 4 From: "John D. Peedle" <john@peedle.freeserve.co.uk>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? . Message-ID: <9h0eh3$4kr$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message% news:3B339F63.1588BD0@videotron.ca... = > Larry Kilgallen quoted someone else from another newsgroup: K > > > Do you think that, backed by another vendor and not Compaq, Alpha has H > > > a better chance? Imagine its technical excellence, coupled with anI > > > owner who is really committed to it, and knows the art of marketing  > > > and selling? > I > I say yes. Compaq has done nothing to leverage the Alpha asset. It is a  littleA > jewel that is kept hidden in the chest and not made to work for 
 shareholders. D > So a company that is capable of buying Alpha, making a very public
 commitmentL > quickly followed by actions/advertising and cheap alpha based computers to5 > fill the gap would gain credibility rather quickly.  > H > And such a company with agressive marketing migth not hesitate to makeF > incremental improvements in speed as processes/yields get better and better. J > While these may not represent "real" improvements, they would enable the new F > owner to advertise the "new and improved" Alpha much more often than Compaq> > could with its release of a new Alpha every couple of years.  I Can you imagine it - a 2GHz Alpha based system for under $1000? Microsoft H developing Windows 2005 for 4 GHz Alpha (IA64 having gone the way of all flesh)   Drool...  % I could almost learn to love Intel...    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 21:56:07 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <9h0etn$5rf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  N In article <VA.000003dc.0282fea7@sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> writes: >>  ? >Well get this article: http://www.theinquirer.net/22060114.htm  >  >"Alpha up for grabs   > # >  Smoke present: looking for fire   > ' >  By Mike Magee, 22/06/01 14:58:06 BST  > ; >  EVIDENCE IS NOW MOUNTING that Compaq will, indeed divest H >  itself of its Alpha microprocessor division, perhaps as early as next
 >  week. ..."  > N >Also a confirmation of lack of interest on Samsung's part in the body of the 	 >article.   L In the article they also indicate that Intel is probably the buyer and they J brush aside the antitrust concerns as if these were of no consequence.  I J suspect thought that if Intel is the buyer AMD will scream bloody murder, J and even the Republican administration would have a hard time keeping the I FTC from nixing the deal.  Heck, the Europeans just scuttled a much less  I egregious deal between Honeywell and GE, and they might very well do the  7 same thing here (if they have any jurisdiction at all.)   H If there's any truth to this the best we can hope for is that AMD is theI buyer.  Which would at least make sense since AMD will (and already does) H utilize Alpha technology in its chips and the Alpha technology will thenH compete head to head (in some format) with Itanium.  And you could even H imagine a Hammer/Alpha fusion of some sort - a chip which would run x86 H code and/or current Alpha code.  That would be a GOOD THING.  AMD would L have no problem selling Alphas, or anything else that kept them in the race H with Intel.  On the flip side, how Intel could possibly bolt Alpha logicJ onto the Itanium is well beyond my comprehension.  More likely they'd talkJ a good game, but really only want to absorb the people in the design team,G and kill the product.  Of course Compaq needs Alpha still, and I'm sure I that they would have some contract that says Intel must do such and such, @ but it would turn into one big ball of conflicting interests andE anticompetitive posturing, rich lawyers and well reamed ex-customers.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:00:30 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? C Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221756280.5725-100000@world.std.com>   $ On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: P > > I have been hinting at changes articulated in a 12 June transformation memo.P > > I suspect the transformation stuff that will be announced, will be announced > > within, say, a week. >  >  > Mr Matco,  > P > I am curious as to how your intelligence can be disseminated to your customersP > without raising the eyebrows of Securities and Exchange Commissions ? Wouldn't0 > that constitude some form of insider trading ? >     A I doubt it. Certainly not in the case of the transformation memo.o  M > Suppose you knew (for the sake of discussion) that Compaq was going to sell N > Alpha to AMD because of your covert spying inside of Compaq. Would revealingP > this information to your customers put you in some form of danger from the SECA > pont of view because it would be consider insider information ?g >     E The only way I would know of such a scenario (if it were true) is viad: information obtained under NDA. And I do not violate NDAs.    O > > I am not in a position to comment on the rumour to which you are referring. L > > What I can say is that EV7 is on track, Marvel systems are on track, andC > > Tru64 and OpenVMS customers have nothing to be concerned about.  > O > Did you purposefully omit NSK from that ??? :-) :-) ;-) :-) :-) :-) (Hey, youn8 > have to expect us to try to read between the lines...) >   D No, that was an omission. NSK customers have nothing to worry about,I either. Heck, CPQ wants to grow that business by double-digits this year!!   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:06:54 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>l1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? C Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221801390.5725-100000@world.std.com>   $ On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:  = > Larry Kilgallen quoted someone else from another newsgroup:aK > > > Do you think that, backed by another vendor and not Compaq, Alpha hasnH > > > a better chance? Imagine its technical excellence, coupled with anI > > > owner who is really committed to it, and knows the art of marketingh > > > and selling? > P > I say yes. Compaq has done nothing to leverage the Alpha asset. It is a littleO > jewel that is kept hidden in the chest and not made to work for shareholders.lO > So a company that is capable of buying Alpha, making a very public commitmentVL > quickly followed by actions/advertising and cheap alpha based computers to5 > fill the gap would gain credibility rather quickly.c    B Yeah, I really oughta write a book: From Alpha to Omega--Marketing Malfeasance at Workl   > H > And such a company with agressive marketing migth not hesitate to makeO > incremental improvements in speed as processes/yields get better and better. oN > While these may not represent "real" improvements, they would enable the newM > owner to advertise the "new and improved" Alpha much more often than Compaqy> > could with its release of a new Alpha every couple of years. >     C Now, if I was a microprocessor purveyor and I was contemplating the:G purchase of Alpha (assuming same was for sale), I would most likely not5G deploy Alpha. Apps availability, etc, would render this a Risky Scheme.   D What I *would* do is incorporate key Alpha technology in my existing 64-bit architecture.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:18:26 GMTt From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..comy1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? 8 Message-ID: <k3g7jtchp3tcg42t6hmb7oakbee8n75a93@4ax.com>  A On 22 Jun 2001 21:56:07 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David  Mathog) wrote:  D >In the article they also indicate that Intel is probably the buyer   ; I wonder if the sale involves the alpha licenses, patents, t: (ie the whole 9 yards), or if CPQ is going to retain some  intellectual property.  < I don't know Intel history too well,  has Intel in the past . simply bought a processor line && design team   wholesale before?  (Strong ARM?)  7 I recall that the DEC/Intel settlement a few years backi2 had some conditions set, by the FTC whereby there 5 had to be another company (2 others?) fabbing Alphas.C  1 Perhaps the fact that IBM is fabbing Alphas now, -7 or simiply a some time limit in the original settlement * now allows CPQ to sell off Alpha to Intel.  6 if the buyer is Intel, what would be their motivation? why 2 64 bit architectures ?     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:39:57 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>d1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?t; Message-ID: <zNPY6.47086$uR5.5160526@news20.bellglobal.com>   F I don't know why companies play the game of "let's focus on only a fewL products to maximize profits". This turns them into "one trick ponies" whichJ makes them more vulnerable to failure. In essence, that's what happened toL Nortel; they decided to focus on the optical networking market which quicklyI saturated and then hit the wall during the "dot com" melt down. CompaniesoE shouldn't ever shut down profitable revenue sources. All those littlec profits do add up.  L So I'm left with just one question; "Just what the hell is Compaq thinking?"  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,e Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/w  H p.s. If the rumor is true, I hope Alpha goes to IBM. If it goes to IntelJ they'll just shut it down because it makes Itanium look bad. Check out the' following link for a recent comparison:r? http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT061101221315p   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 22:54:02 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?n, Message-ID: <9h0iaa$7ov@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  Z In article <k3g7jtchp3tcg42t6hmb7oakbee8n75a93@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes:7 >if the buyer is Intel, what would be their motivation?e   In no particular order:n  K 1.  Use those (few) pieces of Alpha technology that are Itanium compatible.sB 2.  Avoid patent conflicts  (remember the Intel/Digital conflict!)J 3.  Limit Compaq's options = guarantee more Intel CPU purchases by a major     vendor.i 4.  Reduce competition.g7 5.  Get the Alpha developers working on Intel products.7  C Not that the "buy the company, keep the people" strategy is always  J successful.  As many times as not the key technical people quit en masse.    >why 2 64 bit architectures ?     C Exactly!  What better way to carve out market share than to cause a:G potential competitor to suddenly go into stasis.  The Alpha wouldn't be G dead, exactly, but just in that zombie state usually associated with CA F software products, in which there is high cost and zero development.    K That's why I find it so hard to believe that the FTC would ever sign off ona
 this deal.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 15:58:07 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?e, Message-ID: <SEtTiOBpvJv7@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  D In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221801390.5725-100000@world.std.com>, 3     Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:6 > E > Now, if I was a microprocessor purveyor and I was contemplating the.I > purchase of Alpha (assuming same was for sale), I would most likely not1I > deploy Alpha. Apps availability, etc, would render this a Risky Scheme.R > D     If Itanium was turning out to be a total dud one could speculateD that Intel might be interested in buying Alpha and using it instead.E After all, it appears they already employ some of the Alpha designersrF and it's known that there's a version of Windows 2000 that runs on it.   :-)w  F > What I *would* do is incorporate key Alpha technology in my existing > 64-bit architecture.  7    See, now we can start another "death of VMS" thread.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:01:54 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?u, Message-ID: <3B33CE62.A6DC1410@infopuls.com>    LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com wrote: > C > On 22 Jun 2001 21:56:07 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (Davidc > Mathog) wrote: > E > >In the article they also indicate that Intel is probably the buyere > < > I wonder if the sale involves the alpha licenses, patents,; > (ie the whole 9 yards), or if CPQ is going to retain somep > intellectual property. > = > I don't know Intel history too well,  has Intel in the pasta/ > simply bought a processor line && design team " > wholesale before?  (Strong ARM?) > 9 > I recall that the DEC/Intel settlement a few years backu3 > had some conditions set, by the FTC whereby thereo7 > had to be another company (2 others?) fabbing Alphas.  > 2 > Perhaps the fact that IBM is fabbing Alphas now,9 > or simiply a some time limit in the original settlemento, > now allows CPQ to sell off Alpha to Intel. > 8 > if the buyer is Intel, what would be their motivation? > why 2 64 bit architectures ?  > Some HW analysts came to the conclusion that EPIC is the wrong@ way to go because it needs a static (at compile time) prediction> about what will happen at runtime. If this new architecture is; really the wrong way to go it would be a good idea to buy ah; mature architecture. I just read an article about the IA-64g= instruction set and the only thing I admire is the courage tos9 implement the division and the  transcendent mathematicalg= functions in SW. Is there a big difference in having an Alphae@ with a x86 emulation or an IA-64 with a slow IA-32 emulation? In? both cases existing apps can be executed but also in both casesh/ compiling these apps would be highly desirable.o   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 19:37:21 -0700 From: kmbaya@aol.com (tufly)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? = Message-ID: <bdc4883a.0106221837.72979821@posting.google.com>0  e nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote in message news:<SEtTiOBpvJv7@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>...oF > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221801390.5725-100000@world.std.com>, 5 >     Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:  > > G > > Now, if I was a microprocessor purveyor and I was contemplating the.K > > purchase of Alpha (assuming same was for sale), I would most likely notnK > > deploy Alpha. Apps availability, etc, would render this a Risky Scheme.p > > F >     If Itanium was turning out to be a total dud one could speculateF > that Intel might be interested in buying Alpha and using it instead.G > After all, it appears they already employ some of the Alpha designers H > and it's known that there's a version of Windows 2000 that runs on it. >  > :-)  >  nH > > What I *would* do is incorporate key Alpha technology in my existing > > 64-bit architecture. > 9 >    See, now we can start another "death of VMS" thread.i    B As a developer who earns a living coding on the Alpha Architecture	 (OPENVMS)gD the above comment sounds like music to the ears. However objectivity@ must prevail. It is apparent that Intel bashing is as popular as Microsoft bashing,C probably due to the enormous success of both companies. The realitym
 however isB that Intel has succeeded in coming up with a formidable chip (Ia64 Itanium)A which even though it does not live up to the initial hype that it 
 generated,F it puts to shame most of it's RISC competitors, especially for a first	 iteration C of a platform (see www.Specbench.orq for details). The Alpha is/was- the only? chip that truly threatened the Itanium in terms of performance; F however I think that it is silly to think that Intel would forsake theB platform that has propelled it to dominance in favor of a platform whose marketing viability isA questionable (despite whatever technical advantages that it might.B have). Business decisions are simply not made in that fashion. TheA obvious strategy to apply is as mentioned before, steal technicall! capital and apply it to the IntelaB platform. The future of Itanium/Merced seems assured to those with
 open eyes.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:53:56 GMTa- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>A1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?hD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106222348250.27043-100000@world.std.com>  & On 22 Jun 2001, Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  F > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221801390.5725-100000@world.std.com>, 5 >     Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:d > >  > H > > What I *would* do is incorporate key Alpha technology in my existing > > 64-bit architecture. > 9 >    See, now we can start another "death of VMS" thread.  >   D Quite on the contrary. I am not at liberty to comment on the currentC proceedings, but I would suggest that those who choose to speculatedG should consider the prospect of VMS on a mainstream, high-volume 64-bitlD chip. Also worth contemplating is the potential impact on affordable low-end VMS-capable systems.  H It matters not to me what engine is under the hood of my VMSmobile. WhatF *does* matter is the affordability of the solution. And if one were toG speculate about VMS on IPF chips, one might conclude that said hardwareg: would dramatically reduce the entry cost to VMS computing.   'Nuff said.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:03:01 GMTe- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>a1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106222355550.27043-100000@world.std.com>   On 22 Jun 2001, tufly wrote:  g > nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote in message news:<SEtTiOBpvJv7@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>...nH > > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106221801390.5725-100000@world.std.com>, 7 > >     Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:  > > > I > > > Now, if I was a microprocessor purveyor and I was contemplating theeM > > > purchase of Alpha (assuming same was for sale), I would most likely not M > > > deploy Alpha. Apps availability, etc, would render this a Risky Scheme.t > > > H > >     If Itanium was turning out to be a total dud one could speculateH > > that Intel might be interested in buying Alpha and using it instead.I > > After all, it appears they already employ some of the Alpha designersHJ > > and it's known that there's a version of Windows 2000 that runs on it. > >  > > :-)d > >  aJ > > > What I *would* do is incorporate key Alpha technology in my existing > > > 64-bit architecture. > > ; > >    See, now we can start another "death of VMS" thread.l >  > D > As a developer who earns a living coding on the Alpha Architecture > (OPENVMS)mF > the above comment sounds like music to the ears. However objectivityB > must prevail. It is apparent that Intel bashing is as popular as > Microsoft bashing,E > probably due to the enormous success of both companies. The realityh > however isD > that Intel has succeeded in coming up with a formidable chip (Ia64
 > Itanium)C > which even though it does not live up to the initial hype that itr > generated,H > it puts to shame most of it's RISC competitors, especially for a first > iteration E > of a platform (see www.Specbench.orq for details). The Alpha is/wash
 > the onlyA > chip that truly threatened the Itanium in terms of performance;tH > however I think that it is silly to think that Intel would forsake theD > platform that has propelled it to dominance in favor of a platform > whose marketing viability isC > questionable (despite whatever technical advantages that it might D > have). Business decisions are simply not made in that fashion. TheC > obvious strategy to apply is as mentioned before, steal technical # > capital and apply it to the Intel*D > platform. The future of Itanium/Merced seems assured to those with > open eyes. >   H Well stated. Given that Intel is no slouch at producing microprocessors,G and that Itanium is a pretty good Release 1.0 prodcut, you neglected toPJ cite one of the biggest reasons Intel has succeeded while Alpha has been aB technological tour de force and a damnable marketing embarassment:   "IT'S THE MARKETING, STUPID!"     F Whether you like or hate Intel, the firm is no slouch when it comes toD marketing, Doh, maybe mindshare actually is a prerequisite to market share!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:19:19 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B3418C2.4B356F76@videotron.ca>   Terry C Shannon wrote:I > should consider the prospect of VMS on a mainstream, high-volume 64-bit(F > chip. Also worth contemplating is the potential impact on affordable > low-end VMS-capable systems. > J > It matters not to me what engine is under the hood of my VMSmobile. WhatH > *does* matter is the affordability of the solution. And if one were toI > speculate about VMS on IPF chips, one might conclude that said hardware < > would dramatically reduce the entry cost to VMS computing.   Speculative translation:  L Compaq gives away Alpha to Intel for $1.00 in exchange for very cheap IA64s.P Compaq announces it is porting VMS and NSK to IA64. No mention of porting Tru64.  G So VMS runs on commodity hardware. Tru64 relegated to Alpha which Intel $ promises to develop for a few years.  L Intel promises support for Alpha, just like Orable promised support for Rdb.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:25:20 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?-8 Message-ID: <009FDEEA.4DC09CA5@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  \ In article <3B3418C2.4B356F76@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Terry C Shannon wrote:0J >> should consider the prospect of VMS on a mainstream, high-volume 64-bitG >> chip. Also worth contemplating is the potential impact on affordable  >> low-end VMS-capable systems.o >> vK >> It matters not to me what engine is under the hood of my VMSmobile. WhatlI >> *does* matter is the affordability of the solution. And if one were todJ >> speculate about VMS on IPF chips, one might conclude that said hardware= >> would dramatically reduce the entry cost to VMS computing.e >  >Speculative translation:c >tM >Compaq gives away Alpha to Intel for $1.00 in exchange for very cheap IA64s.iQ >Compaq announces it is porting VMS and NSK to IA64. No mention of porting Tru64.n >nH >So VMS runs on commodity hardware. Tru64 relegated to Alpha which Intel% >promises to develop for a few years.t >rM >Intel promises support for Alpha, just like Orable promised support for Rdb.u  K Oracle is continuing to support and develop Rdb.  (Marketing it, maybe not,  but supporting it for sure.)   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================o0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210oO ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:40:22 -0400t# From: Paul DeMone <pdemone@igs.net>*/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformations' Message-ID: <3B33E576.ACCEF0FF@igs.net>-   David Mathog wrote:a [...],J > The really amazing thing is how long the boards of corporations will let > these guys flounder.   Gals too. Don't forget HP.     --D Paul W. DeMone       The 801 experiment SPARCed an ARMs race of EPICE Kanata, Ontario      proportions to put more PRECISION and POWER intoyG demone@mosaid.com    architectures with MIPSed results but ALPHA's welli$ pdemone@igs.net      that ends well.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:06:47 GMTl- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>l/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of TransformationsD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106230004110.27043-100000@world.std.com>  " On 19 Jun 2001, Bert Medley wrote:   > [posted and mailed]i > : > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in 3 > <JaBX6.1461$wU6.1981124@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>:  >  > > www.acersoft.com >  > Terry, > J > Your back issues section at this site is woefully out of date (1999 and # > earlier only?)  Please elucidate!w >   I I would be delighted to elucidate. The Charlie Matco Philantrophy ensures-I that some dated material is posted to the Web. (Last time I looked, there"E were a number of Y2K and Y2K01 issues on the site, but that's anothera story.)s  > My paid subscribers get current material, and lots of it, too.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:15:09 GMTs- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>e/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of TransformationtD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106230008510.27043-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:h9 > > And believe me, things are gonna get WAY interesting!  >  > P > OK, when will the masses (us) realise that something is happening ? Or are theG > chances so subtle that we won't notice it until you reveal it to us ?n > L > Is this something likely to make CNN business news ? Or something which is, > just an internal change inside of Compaq ? >   G The internal transformation won't make CNN business news. But I suspectw> CPQ will be an item of interest in that venue early next week.  C > Is palmer buying VMS so he can comlete his job of destroying it ?i >I  B To the best of my knowledge Compaq owns, and will continue to own,H VMS. The evil Palmer is not a factor in any of the current developments.  G My pal Charlie Matco informs me that VMS users will be happy campers in.A the days, weeks, and decades to come. There are plenty of rumours4J circulating about the fate of Alpha. These I am unable to confirm or deny,F But I remain confident that the VMS story is looking pretty good these days.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:43:38 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformationu9 Message-ID: <e0WY6.562$m6.494978@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   ? "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in messaget& news:9gvmr7$l66@gap.cco.caltech.edu...H > In article <VDvY6.3048$wU6.3394363@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >e! > >The Transformation memo per se J > >addresses issues like simplification, consolidation, expense reduction, etc.K > >The sort of things you would expect Capellas to emphasize in the currenta > >market climate. >iG > Or rather, exactly the sorts of things you'd expect a visionless beannJ > counter like Capellas to emphasize.  The 180 day spin tells me that thisJ > can hardly be anything else besides another reorg.  Which means that theF > first one didn't do the job, which by my general observations of CEOJ > effectiveness, most likely means that this one won't do anything either.K > Ie, for CEOs it's "If at first you don't succeed, fail, fail again."  The*J > good ones get it right the first time - the bad ones never get it right.J > The really amazing thing is how long the boards of corporations will let > these guys flounder.  1 Any ideas on a suitable replacement for Capellas?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:54:44 +02004+ From: "Robert de Boer" <r.e.deboer@kpn.com>  Subject: DECnet Phase IV routerr. Message-ID: <9h08g2$a1q$1@info.service.rug.nl>   Hello,  J I have a network with two CISCO-routers both configured as DECnet phase IVJ Level II router. OpenVMS systems are configured as DECnet end-systems. The? Cisco-routers and the OpenVMS systems are on the same ethernet.i  L I expect to see two routers on my OpenVMS systems but I see only one router.H I use the command " mc ncl show routing circuit csmacd-0 adjacency *" toK check which routers there are. My question's are: " Is this correct? Shouldn I not see two routers?".   Robert de Boer,I Groningen Netherlandsa, T.Bakker@farm.rug.nl (or r.e.deboer@kpn.com)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:23:24 -0400g( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com># Subject: Re: DECnet Phase IV routerr+ Message-ID: <3B33C55C.27F27114@bigfoot.com>j  F I believe it's normal to only see one adjacency.  This is based on theF costs set by the Cisco's on their interfaces when DECnet was enabled. G If your network people increase the cost of the one your seeing, higher:F than the other one, the other should become the new adjacency you see.   HM   Robert de Boer wrote:e >  > Hello, > L > I have a network with two CISCO-routers both configured as DECnet phase IVL > Level II router. OpenVMS systems are configured as DECnet end-systems. TheA > Cisco-routers and the OpenVMS systems are on the same ethernet.a > N > I expect to see two routers on my OpenVMS systems but I see only one router.J > I use the command " mc ncl show routing circuit csmacd-0 adjacency *" toM > check which routers there are. My question's are: " Is this correct? Shouldt > I not see two routers?"o >  > Robert de Boer,  > Groningen Netherlandsl. > T.Bakker@farm.rug.nl (or r.e.deboer@kpn.com)   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 11:49:59 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris) Subject: Re: Disk Farm Problem< Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106221049.50de35b@posting.google.com>  5 Since you have HB RAID SW, you might also look in the C SYS$MANAGER:RAID$DIAGNOSTIC*.LOG files on each node for more clues.o  C Because of all the problems I saw in practice, I now recommend thatlC folks do NOT leave a HSx controller preferred-path setting in placee? (in other words, go ahead and use it to fail drives over to thea> controller you wish, for load-balancing purposes, but then set? NOPREFFERRED_PATH to let it come under VMS' control if needed).i  C I've seen too many failures where the HSx controllers couldn't tellhD which one of the two of them would work, but VMS could figure it out: and recover if you allowed it the freedom to switch paths.  A The way HSx preferred paths work is that the two controllers in aeD dual-redundant pair conspire to lie to VMS and one of them tells VMS? it does not have access to the unit when in fact it could.  If,:E between the two controllers, they decide they need to fail over, then2F the controllers switch roles.  Problem is, there are too many possibleD failure scenarios where the controller thinks it is just fine, thankF you very much, but can't reach the drives, yet the other controller inC the pair, which can reach them just fine, declines to take over thelD units because the first controller (which has the preferred path set? to it) seems to be functioning just fine as far as it can tell.l   Keith    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:14:39 -0400h- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>  Subject: FORTRAN question'- Message-ID: <3B338B0F.B9FA8F5B@bellsouth.net>   E Why would one code this (which does not work in the latest version of + FORTRAN... Original version was from 1990).   D         DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/"001420,"000012,"001020,"00040// ..............................................^hF %F90-E-ERROR, Syntax error, found INTEGER_CONSTANT '12' when expecting one of: , /i! at line number 368 in file <name>t  ) Will this give the funtional equivalence?   @         DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/001420,000012,001020,00040/ as this compiles correctly.I  B And as you guessed, I am not a real programmer.. but I am a fairly& decent hacker  (especially cut/paste).   Michael Austin DBA Consultant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:50:34 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: FORTRAN question-L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2206011450340001@user-2ivebbm.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <3B338B0F.B9FA8F5B@bellsouth.net>, Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote:e  G > Why would one code this (which does not work in the latest version ofs- > FORTRAN... Original version was from 1990).  > F >         DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/"001420,"000012,"001020,"00040/1 > ..............................................^eH > %F90-E-ERROR, Syntax error, found INTEGER_CONSTANT '12' when expecting
 > one of: , /u# > at line number 368 in file <name>  > + > Will this give the funtional equivalence?a > B >         DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/001420,000012,001020,00040/ > as this compiles correctly.' > D > And as you guessed, I am not a real programmer.. but I am a fairly( > decent hacker  (especially cut/paste).  F Why not use the F77 compiler?  That seems more reliable than modifying  code you don't quite understand.  B Alternatively, check the docs for the meaning of that illegal DataC statement.  I think those are probably octal constants, but I don't4( remember for sure of the top of my head.   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:04:17 -0400,- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>p Subject: Re: FORTRAN questionr- Message-ID: <3B33A4C1.8759A3A4@bellsouth.net>i   Robert Deininger wrote:p   >gH > Why not use the F77 compiler?  That seems more reliable than modifying" > code you don't quite understand. >   H I am actually porting the code from VAX to Alpha and only have the newerH compiler.  It does compile when I make the minor change.  I just want to8 make sure that it is funtionally and logically the same.   Thanks Michael Austin DBA Consultant.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:47:46 -0400   From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil Subject: Re: FORTRAN questiona0 Message-ID: <01062216474605@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  0 Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote onE Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:04:17 -0400 in <3B33A4C1.8759A3A4@bellsouth.net>:m   > Robert Deininger wrote:w > >tJ > > Why not use the F77 compiler?  That seems more reliable than modifying$ > > code you don't quite understand. > >r > J > I am actually porting the code from VAX to Alpha and only have the newerJ > compiler.  It does compile when I make the minor change.  I just want to: > make sure that it is funtionally and logically the same.  J The F90 compiler has an /F77 switch that causes it to use F77 parse rules.I It also has a /OLD_F77 switch that actually runs the Fortran 77 compiler.eI If the Fortran-66 coding convention is understood by the Fortran-77, then  /OLD_F77 is the way to go.  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919n; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919r5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094t   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2001 00:04 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)r Subject: Re: FORTRAN questionh- Message-ID: <23JUN200100044650@gerg.tamu.edu>   $ jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil writes...1 }Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote ontF }Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:04:17 -0400 in <3B33A4C1.8759A3A4@bellsouth.net>: }> Robert Deininger wrote: }> >K }> > Why not use the F77 compiler?  That seems more reliable than modifying % }> > code you don't quite understand.) }> > }> vK }> I am actually porting the code from VAX to Alpha and only have the newertK }> compiler.  It does compile when I make the minor change.  I just want tot; }> make sure that it is funtionally and logically the same.e } K }The F90 compiler has an /F77 switch that causes it to use F77 parse rules.pJ }It also has a /OLD_F77 switch that actually runs the Fortran 77 compiler.J }If the Fortran-66 coding convention is understood by the Fortran-77, then }/OLD_F77 is the way to go.l } ; }Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.comt  E The old F77 compiler is an optional part of the Fortran installation.o  B Just a couple weeks ago I ran into a changed-of-syntax problem and? discovered that I hadn't installed it. I suspect that it is notu? installed by default since I think I just went with the default > install (but I could be wrong - I used to program in Fortran a> lot and so I may have just decided to update where necessary).   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2001 00:01 CDTh' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)d Subject: Re: FORTRAN questiong- Message-ID: <23JUN200100012258@gerg.tamu.edu>   1 Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> writes...sF }Why would one code this (which does not work in the latest version of, }FORTRAN... Original version was from 1990). } E }        DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/"001420,"000012,"001020,"00040/<1 }...............................................^'G }%F90-E-ERROR, Syntax error, found INTEGER_CONSTANT '12' when expectingc }one of: , /" }at line number 368 in file <name> } * }Will this give the funtional equivalence? } A }        DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/001420,000012,001020,00040/o }as this compiles correctly. } C }And as you guessed, I am not a real programmer.. but I am a fairlyV' }decent hacker  (especially cut/paste).f }  }Michael Austinu }DBA Consultantw  H Why? Beacuse it did what they wanted to do, I would guess. Unfortunately- for you, the syntax has changed since then...o  E I expect that the leading double-qoute indicated that it was an octalhG value instead of a decimal value. You should either convert the numbersiA to decimal or flag them as octal using the correct syntax for theoB current compiler. OK, I looked it up (it in the on-line help under( HELP FORTRAN DATA CONSTANTS OCTAL), try:  L         DATA IOATT,IOKIL,IORNE,IOWLB/O"001420",O"000012",O"001020",O"00040"/  @ I.E. each value needs a leading O and a trailing double-quote in. addition to the existing leading double-quote.  D Doing it the way you fixed it will work, but it will also change the? values since 001420 in octal is 784 in decimal (or 310 in hex).R  D The original code as interpred by the current compiler has the firstF data value being character data using "001420," as a character string.C It then, quite rightly, gets confused when the next thing after the.B closing double-quotes is 000012 without even a comma separating itH from the previous value in the list. Thus you must have either forgottenB to put the comma in, or forgotten to end the list of values (whichD is why it was expecting either a , or a /). Except that in this case> the error was something else: incorrectly specifying the data.  > (Way back when, but not so far back as to make you have to use< Holleriths for character data, only single-quotes were valid8 character string delimiters. These days you can also use@ double-quotes, which is where the problem presumably comes from.= The possible uses of the double-quote character have changed,A= requiring a change in the way octal constants are specified.)I   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 13:15:57 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)r8 Subject: Free Rdb [was Re: VMS applications on the web?], Message-ID: <TwD5+zuKb$S3@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <3B339EF1.7EB56E53@infopuls.com>, A.    Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:   > Michael Austin wrote:o >> e	 >> Chris,C >> SX >> I wish I had one of those apps.  unfortunately they were done on my clients intranet.W >> Actually I am in the process of trying to obtain a real cheap license for Rdb and/or= >> Oracle to "play with".-  H    You can get a "development only" version of Rdb for free from Oracle.R Go to http://technet.oracle.com/ and click on "downloads" then select "Oracle Rdb"R from the select list. Note the download size is 53MB for Alpha or 27MB for VAX, so- you'd better have a good internet connection.l  S    Development only versions of Oracle are also available from the same site, but ITB don't see a VMS version there - only Linux, NT, Solaris and Tru64.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:01:19 -0400c- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>i+ Subject: Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!-( Message-ID: <3B3387DC.5590E410@ohio.edu>   WS_FTP is available from  ,                     http://www.ipswitch.com/  M It can be configured to discard the semicolon and version number when you are0K downloading, so that when you re-upload the modified file, it creates a new L version, preserving the old file until you deliberately discard it.  Uses upK disk space if you don't do your housekeeping, but it can save a lot of workr re-creating content!  #                                 RDPs     Michael Austin wrote:t  O > probably because it does not understand the OpenVMS directory structure.  uselF > WS_FTP (btw this is about the only ftp client I can get to work withJ > SunOS/Solaris (Refections cannot create/read directories on SUN)  or useG > Reflection ftp and a number of others that seem to work with multiples > platforms. >nN > >> Could not retrieve directory listing for "DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]/"  <<-- > note the "/" >0 > Michael Austin > DBA Consultant >w > David Boyer wrote: >RO > > We're using LeechFTP http://stud.fh-heilbronn.de/~jdebis/leechftp/ from our2I > > Windows clients and we're reciving an error when trying to retrieve arF > > directory listing. We've tried ls, list, nlst, nlist, and dir. TheD > > connection LOG is below and I'd be grateful for any suggestions! > >i) > > < 220 FTP Server (Version 5.0) Ready.l > > > USER myuseride/ > > < 331 Username myuserid requires a Passwordo > > > PASS *********** > > < 230 User logged in.h > > > REST 1  > > < 502 REST is unimplemented.
 > > > SYST > > < 200 VMS OpenVMS V7.2	 > > > PWD 9 > > < 257 "DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]" is current directory.  > > ~ Login completed. > > > PORT 147,92,244,181,8,127 " > > < 200 PORT command successful. > > > TYPE A > > < 200 TYPE set to ASCII.
 > > > LISTB > > < 150 Opening data connection for DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]*.*;* > > (147.92.244.181,2175)e2 > > < LISTERROR: Directory DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]$ > > < LISTERROR: COUNCILBLUFFS.TXT;2? > > < LISTERROR: 473/490 15-JUN-2001 08:38:40 [SPECIAL,MYUSERIDo > > (RWED,RWED,RWED,) 3 > > < LISTERROR: Total of 29 files, 991/2450 blocksnI > > ~ Could not retrieve directory listing for "DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]/"    --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:36:25 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.+ Subject: Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!n, Message-ID: <3B339E35.5A3B2D54@videotron.ca>   "Richard D. Piccard" wrote:sO > It can be configured to discard the semicolon and version number when you arerM > downloading, so that when you re-upload the modified file, it creates a newlN > version, preserving the old file until you deliberately discard it.  Uses upM > disk space if you don't do your housekeeping, but it can save a lot of works > re-creating content!  % $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$FTP_NO_VERSION 1n   will do the trick.  N However, I am not sure, but aren't there 2 separate commands FTP commands sent
 to a server ?t  L One to get a parsable file list, and one to get a "text" file list. It seemsH that the command being sent by your FTP client asks for a text file list  instead of a parsable file list.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:04:19 -0400l  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>+ Subject: Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!s6 Message-ID: <1010622182951.38769E-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > "Richard D. Piccard" wrote:jQ > > It can be configured to discard the semicolon and version number when you arelO > > downloading, so that when you re-upload the modified file, it creates a new P > > version, preserving the old file until you deliberately discard it.  Uses upO > > disk space if you don't do your housekeeping, but it can save a lot of work  > > re-creating content! > ' > $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$FTP_NO_VERSION 1m >  > will do the trick. > P > However, I am not sure, but aren't there 2 separate commands FTP commands sent > to a server ?S > N > One to get a parsable file list, and one to get a "text" file list. It seemsJ > that the command being sent by your FTP client asks for a text file list" > instead of a parsable file list.  I That would be nice, but AFAIK it doesn't exist.  There is absolutely *NO*uI standard for the info returned by an FTP DIR (or LS, which is a synonym).   H I think it was originally intended to be only a human-readable directoryI and was implemented by forking or spawning the server's regular directorysB program.  (Which is why you need a copy of or link to LS in a /binH subdirectory if you are setting up a Unix anonymous FTP server.  Blech.)  F I think that scripted FTP and wildcards (two principal ancient reasonsB why this scheme is bad) were tacked on later (about 20 years ago.)H Graphical clients, which need to grab a list of all files, or a filteredE list, and recognize sub-directories, have been around about 10 years,  I think.  D Most FTP servers cope with this problem by implementing an emulationG of some Unix's LS and hope the clients can deal with this.  This always @ has problems.  For one thing, I don't know if anything but a VMS% client can deal with version numbers.e  B I use WS_FTP at home, but it doesn't work perfectly.  For example,@ people are always sending me MS Word docs or MS spreadsheets.  IB read my VMS mail in Pine (mostly for the folder management stuff),B and export the MS junk to local files (if I just don't delete it.)> Then download to my PC using WS_FTP (if I'm at home) or FTP itC to a Sun and view it in StarOffice (server to an Alpha 200/DEC unixsH workstation) if I'm at work.  (StarOffice doesn't always display things F nicely.  It often seems to have font problems, I.E displaying stuff inC a tiny font which seems to have broken characters.  I have the samewG problems with web pages, most notably at Compaq, but elsewhere as well.iD So it might be a problem with the workstation...  In some fonts, theD letters i and l look identical, and in others some characters appear as blanks!)  Ugh.S  B whenever I download something to my PC using WS_FTP, I get versionA numbers on the output, which W2K treats as part of the file type,rD so I need to rename them to change ".DOC;1" to ".DOC" before it will? recognize it as a MS Word file.  Maybe this is a good thing ;-) C I'm using TCPWare V5.4's built-in FTP server on VMS.  How do I makea& version numbers vanish on the PC side?   -------l  A The ultimate cure may be to use Kermit as an FTP client (not sureoC if it is purely a client or also a server.)  It puts directory infoe@ in a canonical format.  It also allows useful filtering, such asA listing files by date (/since=10-Jun), IIRC.  Unfortunately, thiso@ is new in Kermit V7.1, currently in beta (or maybe alpha?) test.B The VMS-specific side of things requires the assistance of someone? who understands VMS files (RMS) and all the ins and outs of VMSm@ I/O and directory structures.  Unfortunately, there have been noA volunteers so far.  I think all the people on the volunteer shortn@ list are totally swamped.  (I know I am.  I shouldn't be wastingB time reading c.o.v.  So far I've been almost completely successful= resisting the impulse to post in the SUV, global warming, and. future of VMS threads :-)h  = Or maybe the Kermit-as-a-kermit server (in Kermit V7.0) wouldp: do the trick.  You spawn kermit as a server listening on a@ well-known port, like any IP server, and it listens for incoming: kermit connections (from a kermit client connecting to the= well-known port instead of to the normal telnet port), and itr= can transfer files and do directory listings using the kermit = protocol instead of FTP.  This is far more flexible than FTP,-> and kermit can use label mode to pass VMS file attributes from= end-to-end or to encapsulate them for intermediate storage on = a non-VMS platform (i.e. Unix or Windows or anything else...)n8 See "IKSD" in the Kermit docs or at kermit.columbia.edu.     -- e John Santosa Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 23:20 CDT.' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) + Subject: Re: FTP LIST problem. Help Please!"- Message-ID: <22JUN200123200743@gerg.tamu.edu>.  ' "David Boyer" <david@bvu.edu> writes... L }We're using LeechFTP http://stud.fh-heilbronn.de/~jdebis/leechftp/ from ourF }Windows clients and we're reciving an error when trying to retrieve aC }directory listing. We've tried ls, list, nlst, nlist, and dir. The0A }connection LOG is below and I'd be grateful for any suggestions!s }> LISTn? }< 150 Opening data connection for DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]*.*;*i }(147.92.244.181,2175)/ }< LISTERROR: Directory DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]l! }< LISTERROR: COUNCILBLUFFS.TXT;2i< }< LISTERROR: 473/490 15-JUN-2001 08:38:40 [SPECIAL,MYUSERID }(RWED,RWED,RWED,)0 }< LISTERROR: Total of 29 files, 991/2450 blocksF }~ Could not retrieve directory listing for "DISK$SPECIAL:[MYUSERID]/"  B This is not a server error, this is a client error. You FTP client? is trying to parse the directory data. Since the directory dataeD is in the VMS format and your client doesn't understand this format,B it is failing miserably. The server is sending the data just fine.B Your client is broken and the author of it is stupid for trying to parse the directory output.d  $ Get an FTP client that isn't broken.  @ (If you were running Multinet, you could have it always send FTPB directory info in the Unix-style format, and I think it does so by? default for some of the possible directory related commands - InC think "ls" is done that way. It may be possible to do this in other-D FTP servers as well. This is a workaround for broken clients. You're/ better off getting a client that isn't broken.)D   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:18:40 +1000 < From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nospam.optusnet.com.au>) Subject: Re: Latest news- Alpha for sale? B Message-ID: <3b33b5b6$0$25467$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>  # So, windows 95 for DS10  anyone ;-)u   antony  2 "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message# news:3B3369AC.96BB8295@rdrop.com...o > Hadn't seen this here yet... >e) > http://www.theinquirer.net/22060114.htms   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2001 14:18:38 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: MACRO:include externals how to ?s3 Message-ID: <Txzeu7HbHr46@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  g In article <3B33871C.6B10FE31@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>, "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> writes: 	 > Hi All!aU > 	I have a little .MAR progs, I want to keep some connstants in external .MAR moduletX > which is supposed to be by an "include" in the main module. Is there any tips or triksF > ? I ran over the docs and not found any compiler directive for that.  7 Typically one does such definitions in a Macro library.:   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:17:23 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)- Subject: Re: MACRO:include externals how to ?J0 Message-ID: <7RMY6.47$rc5.1434@news.cpqcorp.net>  g In article <3B33871C.6B10FE31@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>, "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> writes:t@ :	I have a little .MAR progs, I want to keep some connstants in E :external .MAR module which is supposed to be by an "include" in the  * :main module. Is there any tips or triks?   I   I'd use the SDL tool (Freeware) and I'd follow the same techniques that G   are used for the OpenVMS system macro libraries -- by using SDL, you aC   avoid skewing problems when/if you need the definitions in other  G   languages, and using macro libraries means that your stuff works the iD   same as the typical OpenVMS stuff.  (And OpenVMS uses SDL, BTW...)  H   If these are constant strings and messages and related documentation, I   you can use the Freeware GNM tool to store error messages and recovery cK   text and translate the contents for use both in SDML (DOCUMENT) and into  K   the OpenVMS MESSAGE compiler, and the MESSAGE/SDL qualifier then permits tH   you to generate SDL input files for conversion into language-specific I   syntax using SDL.  (An SGML translator for GNM is an interesting idea.)e  '   An overly terse answer, I'd expect...-    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:15:30 +01001+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>.- Subject: Re: MACRO:include externals how to ? ' Message-ID: <3B339952.3BE7CDAD@iee.org>x   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:\ >         I have a little .MAR progs, I want to keep some connstants in external .MAR moduleX > which is supposed to be by an "include" in the main module. Is there any tips or triksF > ? I ran over the docs and not found any compiler directive for that.  ( Put your definitions into a macro module" and insert it into a macro library& (a .MLB file). Usually you will create3 a MACRO (or MACROs) (_FOO or whatever) within this a/ module which performds whatever definitions you  need.   & When you want to use the macro in your source file you do:a   	.LIBRARY wherever:library.MLB  	 and then u 	_FOO * to use the macro and define your constants (or whatever).   The online docs, in particular:k  L http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/4515/4515pro_009.html#index_x_334 should help.   AntonioK       -- W   ---------------1- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:29:26 -0400g( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Marketing Rantings #3+ Message-ID: <3B33F0F6.96F2BBA6@bigfoot.com>   F Why did UNIX, and lately LINUX become so popular? Early on, UNIX usageF was pervasive on many a college campus in the U.S. I still remember myD first experience working with the ed editor on UNIX running on a PDPF 11/44 at college. This is AFTER having been exposed to TOPS-10 runningC on the DEC 10, which had vastly superior computing power and better D editors (I sometimes miss TECO).  So many engineers, who would laterE take hold positions in technology and management, already had a "warm)B and fuzzy" with the OS - or a least they had heard about it.  WhenF called on to implement solutions, human nature dictates that you firstF go with what you are even tangentially familiar versus the unknown.  ID don't imagine a LOT of engineers recommend using CICS on an IBM 3090G mainframe as their first choice in computing environment when they wereeH weened on DEC.  DEC in those days knew that giving deep discounts on DECE 10's and VAXes was the way to go if you want your product to survive.-E For all the negative things you might want to say about Ken Olsen, heeH knew that MARKET SHARE is everything - you lose that, and you don't haveH much.  What your average DRUG DEALER knows, the DEC post-Olsen marketingD people at DEC had no clue.  Give out free samples, hook your market,E then squeeze them for margin later.  Remember when DOS was a $50 OS? IF How much is NT workstation and server right now?  Lotus, at the start,G did not copy protect it's programs - this allowed Lotus 1-2-3 to be onecG of the most successful (in terms of distribution) pieces of software intG the world -ever.  Know why Microchannel failed? Licensing fees were tootC high before a high enough percentage of market penetration had been E realized.  Was it technically superior to ISA at the time? You bet itf was.  D Why did IBM, HP, Sun, DEC etc. start producing their own versions ofF UNIX? Portability mainly.  What bolstered UNIX's fortunes in this areaG the most was probably the fortuitous decision to re-write the OS in the-E C language ( and also INVENT the C langiage of course).  Most vendorsmG had little trouble moving it to their hardware. In fact Linus Torvalds,.H while a STUDENT at Helsinki University, had the inclination to write hisD own version of the kernel - I'd like to see him pull this off if theE original had been written in BLISS !!!!  A lot of "NT Administrators" G are tired of getting bashed by their UNIX /IBM OS/DEC VMS counterparts,eG and want to learn something other than point and click.  As experiencedUH systems managers, we tell them to go pay their dues and don't bother us.? Especially in the UNIX realm.  So up comes Linux, and the Linux G "vendors" offering functionality of use and administration of this "newrC UNIX" very similar to the commercial versions, and it's essentiallybC free.  What do you think they would do? What they have done - learncG Linux and use it.  My first exposure to Linux (after having worked as adF Sys Admin with several commercial UNIXes including OSF/1 slash DigitalH Unix slash Name of the Month) was by neccesity/force.  I had heard aboutH Linux, but had always considered it one of those toy-learning OS's untilF I actually installed it and started to work with it.  I had a contractH at Gateway 2000 a few years back (they mainly use big HP iron running HPE UX), and naturally they use PC's on the desktop.  They didn't want tosE spring for the price of PC X servers so that they could X into the HPaG UNIX boxes, so they would bring up Linux on a separate box just to haveyB the X server.  When I started working with it, I was amazed at theG funtionality, and how many real tools, compilers etc. come with it.  My G point is Linux runs on a LOT of different hardware.  Linux's history is : still being written, but I imagine it has a bright future.  G For most products, there is ONLY ONE WAY to achieve market share in any C market, when you either don't have it, or are losing it: Lower yourIA price!  People will give a significantly lower priced item in ANY[E MARKET, a chance.  If the product is as good or just slightly less inDE quality compared with that of the competition, you will RAPIDLY stealTF business away from your competitors, and achieve market penetration. IE remember in the early to late 80's where the cost of software for VAXlF solutions would easily eclipse the cost of hardware. I believe this isC where DEC started to lose it.  They did not have high enough marketiE share to extract sustained margins out of these sales, without losingrE potential customers.  And don't get me started on someone's brilliantkD idea to start to do software licensing; that little stroke of genius cost DEC BILLIONS.  E Incidentally, with certain products, there is a second way to achieveoD market penetration, but this only applies to items such as food.  IfF someone makes a dish sooo good that you just have to have it,  you mayE drive miles to get it, and won't care how much it costs. Here, vastly A superior quality is the weapon. But this type of item has limitedl= general appeal and you have to do high margin on it to remainy@ profitable.  In a small niche market it will work, but generally, speaking, it does not scale well for volume.  G So, short of other methods, which might be too little too late for VMS,iA MASS MARKETING will work.  You can sell ANYTHING with a good massrH marketing campaign.  Immediate profitability is often not a concern whenH this is undertaken, only market penetration.  You get your profitabilityA on the back end, in years to come (this is what a lot of JapanesepG companies do - they don't look quarter-to-quarter as we do in the U.S.) A I would really like to see the first VMS Infomercial, among other: things.      HM   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:42:10 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Re: Marketing Rantings #39 Message-ID: <S_VY6.561$m6.494677@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>    > I > So, short of other methods, which might be too little too late for VMS, C > MASS MARKETING will work.  You can sell ANYTHING with a good masscJ > marketing campaign.  Immediate profitability is often not a concern whenJ > this is undertaken, only market penetration.  You get your profitabilityC > on the back end, in years to come (this is what a lot of Japanese I > companies do - they don't look quarter-to-quarter as we do in the U.S.) C > I would really like to see the first VMS Infomercial, among otherl	 > things.s  L You can only sell a product for which there is a need, and apps availabilityG and the current Alpha and VAX platform dependence limit the addressabledK market for VMS. Now, if VMS was to be ported to another 64-bit architecturenL (preferably one that will enjoy tremendous market penetration), the rules ofH the game might change. More places for VMS to run (imagine VMS on a DellD Itanium server, hehehe), and less ISV concern about Alpha longevity.  G Folks in this forum have long asked for an architectural port of VMS (IUH suggested same to Jesse Lipcon back in '94, alas DEC listened to GartnerH Group (Probability Factor that Analyst was wearing Armani Suit: 0.9) andG bought into their specious Affinity Scheme. But what goes around, comestK around. And as for an architectural port, like the saying goes, "be carefula* what you wish for, you just might get it."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:44:52 -0400s- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>h! Subject: Re: OpenVMS Applicationst( Message-ID: <3B339208.21CCD40E@ohio.edu>   Sue,  M         The newsgroups are a rather transitory location for this information.cL Please try to persuade Warren Sander (???) to put this information up on the@ VMS Web site, or Hoff to include it in a new section of the FAQ.  #                                 RDPa     Sue Skonetski wrote:   > Dear Newsgroup,l > H > Here is a list of some of our partners I will add more as I find them. >r > Sue(   [snip]   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:04:40 -0400t+ From: "Catherine" <seadreamen@telocity.com> # Subject: PL1 port listener program?a8 Message-ID: <BNLY6.41$Tk.3845@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>  1 Any body else out there still using pl1 on a vax?r  J I need a pl1 port listener program for vax vms 6.2 using ucx 4.2.  I don't? know enough cobol or any C to be able to translate it into PL1.t  ) Would appreciate any assistance.  Thanks!n  	 Catherines   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:43:34 +0930b/ From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>iM Subject: Power Supplies: VAXstation 4000/60 and (yes AND) DEC 3000/(300 IRRC)l/ Message-ID: <3B33B4FE.F00D3F2A@wasd.vsm.com.au>   G Simultaneous power supply failures after shutdown and being powered-offiB and disconnected from the mains for two weeks.  These are hobbyistA machines housed in a domestic study (mainly used for WASD packagec& development, http://wasd.vsm.com.au/).   Yes I don't believe it either!!   B First I power-up the DEC 3000, after about one minute it takes theC household circuit breaker out.  Slight brown smell.  Understandable F consternation.  Pull the cover off both system and power supply.  MainF and daugher boards look OK.  Nothing has obviously leaked it's smoke. = Look at power supply.  Again nothing obviously blackened, buttE soldered-in fuse kaput (odd I think, defies Murpheys Law which stateseE circuits should protect fuses, think again - of course they must havesF done their valiant best but failed before preventing damage to fuse). @ Could it be condensation in the thick layer of lint covering theF components (accumulated over the years)?  Perhaps too hopeful!  AnywayE I'd like to clean it up and try it again.  It's my only Alpha and I'mtF unlikely to lay my hands on one again anytime soon.  Can anyone adviseB of the fuse ratings (remember I'm 240V here in .au) and/or provideG useful (or at least humorous) comment (I'm feeling sorry for myself and  need cheering up).   The story continues ....  F OK.  After some cursing of the powers-that-be I decide to fall back toD the trusty old VAXstation 4000/60.  Usually I only use this for codeE architecture verfication and compilation of distributed object code. lE But I can (and used to) use it to develop.  In fact compilation on itaE occurs more quickly that the Alpha (of course the optimization on AXPdH requires a lot more work).  Anyway, I rearrange the desktop and ready toG restore my latest development tree back onto the VAXstation.  ReconnectrH SCSI cables, etc.  Flick power switch.  Dead.  Not a murmur.  Swap powerG cables with known working equipment.  Nope.  Cutting to the chase - oneaH of the two fuses in it's power supply is no more (in the parrot sense). C There are two and this is the one closest to the chassis.  Again, IIH cannot make out the rating.  Can anyone help?  Haven't really had a huge amount to do with "hardware".P  < I swear the systems were running prior to the shutdown, wereC @SHUTDOWN.COM, switched off at the system, switched off at the wallS@ socket, then the distribution board cable removed from the powerH socket.  Reason - two weeks travelling outside of .au.  No need to leave them up.  9 Now I'm completely VMS-less (first time in three years). t! Aarrrgggghhhh.  Can't believe it.e   TIA.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:40:51 +0930h/ From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>tQ Subject: Re: Power Supplies: VAXstation 4000/60 and (yes AND) DEC 3000/(300 IRRC)e/ Message-ID: <3B3424DB.8C89E843@wasd.vsm.com.au>n  G Answered much of this myself (always the "premature-poster" problem, or / "wallowing around by myself for ever" problem).n  H In the warm light of day I could see printed 'in large friendly letters'G beneath the VAXstation P/S PCB fuse holder, "6A".  So I went down to mytH local electronics reseller and bought several.  Replacing the spent fuseA the VAXstation now works again.  :^)  Fuse age, or something mored sinister I wonder.  H Update on the DEC 3000/300 P/S.  Again, a daylight inspection of the P/SG PCB reveals a small, suspicious smudge beneath a capacitor.  Looks like ! the end of the road for that one.   G Unusual that both systems should spit at the same time (I almost became5 a conspiracy theorist).s  5 No longer bereft of VMS ... thanks for the bandwidth.0   Mark Daniel wrote: > I > Simultaneous power supply failures after shutdown and being powered-offnD > and disconnected from the mains for two weeks.  These are hobbyistC > machines housed in a domestic study (mainly used for WASD packagec( > development, http://wasd.vsm.com.au/). > ! > Yes I don't believe it either!!@ > D > First I power-up the DEC 3000, after about one minute it takes theE > household circuit breaker out.  Slight brown smell.  UnderstandableeH > consternation.  Pull the cover off both system and power supply.  MainG > and daugher boards look OK.  Nothing has obviously leaked it's smoke.y? > Look at power supply.  Again nothing obviously blackened, but-G > soldered-in fuse kaput (odd I think, defies Murpheys Law which statesfG > circuits should protect fuses, think again - of course they must haverG > done their valiant best but failed before preventing damage to fuse).tB > Could it be condensation in the thick layer of lint covering theH > components (accumulated over the years)?  Perhaps too hopeful!  AnywayG > I'd like to clean it up and try it again.  It's my only Alpha and I'maH > unlikely to lay my hands on one again anytime soon.  Can anyone adviseD > of the fuse ratings (remember I'm 240V here in .au) and/or provideI > useful (or at least humorous) comment (I'm feeling sorry for myself and  > need cheering up). >  > The story continues ...n > H > OK.  After some cursing of the powers-that-be I decide to fall back toF > the trusty old VAXstation 4000/60.  Usually I only use this for codeF > architecture verfication and compilation of distributed object code.G > But I can (and used to) use it to develop.  In fact compilation on itnG > occurs more quickly that the Alpha (of course the optimization on AXPUJ > requires a lot more work).  Anyway, I rearrange the desktop and ready toI > restore my latest development tree back onto the VAXstation.  ReconnectaJ > SCSI cables, etc.  Flick power switch.  Dead.  Not a murmur.  Swap powerI > cables with known working equipment.  Nope.  Cutting to the chase - one-I > of the two fuses in it's power supply is no more (in the parrot sense). E > There are two and this is the one closest to the chassis.  Again, I J > cannot make out the rating.  Can anyone help?  Haven't really had a huge > amount to do with "hardware".  > > > I swear the systems were running prior to the shutdown, wereE > @SHUTDOWN.COM, switched off at the system, switched off at the walloB > socket, then the distribution board cable removed from the powerJ > socket.  Reason - two weeks travelling outside of .au.  No need to leave
 > them up. > : > Now I'm completely VMS-less (first time in three years).# > Aarrrgggghhhh.  Can't believe it.s >  > TIA.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:01:53 -0400 + From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>cS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSo# Message-ID: <sb336bf7.090@aaas.org>w  A >>> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 06/22/2001 3:29:28 PM >>>u   ::SNIP::  B > I personally know a few (very few) managers with more brain thanB > most of their employees. These people don't watch TV (one or two  I I agree. That's why my manager is someone who does know what she's doing.v  @ > customers?? Thank you very much, not with me and not with VMS.> > It's really hard to witness the destruction of VMS with this@ > completely stupid UNIX/Slowaris compatibility initiative which@ > could be interpreted that decision makers at Compaq don't seem< > to understand the business. Did I mention that nobody with? > interest in stable systems and a low TOC should use UNIX, the3> > puzzle of designless pieces of SW? The most stupid OS in the# > world? Did I really mention this?a  K I know you're angry, but don't take your frustrations out on Unix. I know =sJ I came of age in a different time, and I know this war has been going on =L for a long time, but VMS could take a few cues from Unix (and vice versa). =I Frankly, there are stupider OSes out there, and for different reasons.=20m  ? > One question: Does IBM strive for UNIX/Slowaris compatibility ? > for their AS400 whose OS has BTW one of the stupidest commandt> > languages ever created? Opposite to the UNIX irregularity or: > beeing free of any systematic approach the OS400 command5 > language is inefficient regularity carved in stone.s  J No, and coming from an all blue shop before I took over as caretaker for =L our Alphas I can tell you at one point I found OS/400 much more comforting =K and intuitive that VMS. We all come from different backgrounds and we all =CI have different experience, and again DEC was at was with IBM for a long =o time.h  0 I rather liked the idea or "str prn wb01pr24"=20  A > customers. If I had money I would offer an email service with ao= > money back warranty for beeing available 365x24 and for notE? > losing emails (the connection to the internet must be failure @ > tolerant also) based on VMS, offering the same availability asA > most of the electronical bourse systems. Offering services thatr  K This kind of statement reminds me of something I read a couple weeks ago. = H An RFC is out there for modifying the underlying principle of email to =K ensure delivery - something more attune to a layer 4 protocol (connection =dL oriented, acknowledgement, etc). Email was designed to mimick postal mail, =D and THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. There is no such thing as guaranteed =1 delivery. You have return receipts, but whatever.   A > The point I always come back of thinking about: Did Digital andn@ > Compaq steal money from VMS? Digital was bancrupt, but becauseB > of VMS? Did Compaq transfer money from the VMS earnings to other7 > parts of the company? Of course VMS should pay a fairr> > contribution to Alpha development, but so have Tru64 and NSK4 > (maybe even more because of the lockstep support).  I I think Digital was bankrupt (and correct me if I'm wrong) because they = K made mistakes. Marketing mistakes, product direction mistakes, "to OEM or =NJ not to OEM" mistakes, etc etc ad infinitum. Companies sometimes do that, =L but I doubt even internally when it was DEC you could ask "how much of our =L money is VMS's and how much of OSF-1's and how much is PDP's?" I mean, did =F they divide maintenance on hardware from new software sales revenue? =F Probably. Can you say what belongs to the OS and what belongs to the =/ hardware that runs the OS? I don't think so.=20n  = > This won't work because the qualities which VMS excels with B > aren't trendy. One aspect according to my experience is that the; > people who like VMS are much more technical oriented thanm? > others. They act as engineers in their companies and normallyt  J Please, no one take what I am about to say the wrong way, but the people =L who like VMS tend to be older, career IT people. I went to three different =L colleges, I was a CS major at all three, none of them had Alphas or Vaxes, =J nowhere did they run VMS, never was VMS mentioned or taught. This is the =G second place I've worked where VMS was installed (the first being the =sI White House). One person here could get around in it, one person at the =oJ White House was incharge of everything. Where does a person get exposure =G to an Operating System they've never heard of or come across in their =eG career? I'm an Oracle DBA, and it happened that where I work now runs =eA Oracle on VMS, otherwise it would have never graced my resume.=20   K Understand this though, I feel enriched for having used it, I tell all my =aH Unix friends about all the cool features of it, but I don't personally =K know another VMS administrator. Two of the sixteen people I work with now =AJ had VMS machines at prior jobs, but they never used it. My boss tried at =J one point to hire a VMS admin and couldn't find one. There are MANY MANY =D reasons that people don't choose to use VMS, all of which could be =K addressed, but it's really easy to blame Compaq for not fighting a losing =lK battle. I do it all the time, but when you're user community is generally =oL over 40, closer to 50, nearing retirement, it's not being taught anywhere, =I and noone is making a concerted effort to recruit fresh blood, what can =  you expect?d   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:27:02 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)cS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS 0 Message-ID: <009FDEC0.A1E55CC9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Q In article <sb336bf7.090@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:w {... big snip...}iK >one point to hire a VMS admin and couldn't find one. There are MANY MANY =   E Did he ever post the job requirement to VMSnet.Employment?  Being itsi) moderator, I can assure you he did not.       L >battle. I do it all the time, but when you're user community is generally =M >over 40, closer to 50, nearing retirement, it's not being taught anywhere, =GJ >and noone is making a concerted effort to recruit fresh blood, what can = >you expect?  F It wasn't being taught anywhere when I was closer to 20 either???  Yet% I use it and learned much about it!  n   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            tO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:29:50 -0400 + From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> S Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSe# Message-ID: <sb337289.091@aaas.org>n  6 My only comment about the whole Advertisitng/TV thing:  H Joe Consumer who works on Wall Street will never buy a router. Ask 100 =K stock brokers who makes routers, and who are they going to answer? Cisco. =aL Why, LOTS and LOTS of media advertising. SAP has been advertising a lot as =G well. Even Novell, the company that couldn't market it's way out of a =i( Brainshare conference is running TV ads.  K I was polled last week by some research firm asking about those ads on tv =yD and in magazines with Lou Gherig and Martin Luther King. Nortel is =G starting to advertise more. While advertising for VMS during Survivor =yJ isn't going to make Susy Cobol buy an Alpha running VMS, it will put the = name in everyone's head.  K You can only turn the channel so many times before you lose the will. The =n? goal of that kind of advertising is to get your name out there.c  A >>> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 06/22/2001 4:23:25 PM >>>v Christopher Smith wrote: >=20 > > -----Original Message-----7 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]=20  >=20> > > You are talking about different products, different marketB > > segments and different targets (people, companies). The IOMEGAB > > story isn't complete without the company which made replacableC > > HDs and competed with them, but anyway nothing of importance in D > > our context. Forget your kids watching TV! They're not the peers, > > you need to have the band waggon effect. >=20I > Well, first off, kids watching TV have a great amount of influence on =e theiruI > parents, and some of them are pretty smart (the really smart ones may =  not beI > watching TV, though :)  It's an indirect marketing.  In this case, it =i shouldJ > have the effect of making the parents think "even my (son, daughter) has > heard of this..."  >=20H > There are better places to start, I think.  In PHB mags (BOTASMs, as = I'veL > heard them referred to here), for instance, and Ziff-Davis publications. = :)F > Eventually a TV spot could help with brand recognition, if it were = properly > executed.=  @ I'm not a marketing expert, but I don't think that marketing VMS< like any consumer product would make much sense. I know of a? computer magazin which doesn't advertise. It is now after thereh> decades one of the best and best sold ones but they only offer? you a decent book if you win a new customer. Having a good ideam8 about marketing VMS doesn't necessaryly mean to copy the< brilliant Apple campaign against the IBM PC if you remember.  # > > *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*h >=20L > That's true; it's hard to compare apples to apples, and nearly worthless = toE > compare Apples to Alphas. :)  This is the alchemy of advertising, =e though.PJ > You must find a way for people to relate to your product.  It needs to = beF > advertised along-side the inferior (in this case) products so that = peopleI > recognize it.  To understand this, just note the number of billyboxes =  thatJ > are shoehorned into places (like the work-place) that they don't belong.  < I'm still not convinced. I still think that unusual products need unusual measurements ;-)d >=20
 > Regards, >=20 > Chrish >=20# > Christopher Smith, Perl Developers > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >=20 > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i > '  >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:34:43 -0400r+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>lS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSe# Message-ID: <sb3373b8.000@aaas.org>s  K Our HR department regulates how we're allowed to hire (yes, it's stupid). =dI As a 153 year old 501C not for Profit, we exclusively use head hunters. =eH This was two years ago, and I think they had the position open for six = months.e  K As for being taught, you're extraordinary Brian. Teach Sussy Cobol how to =dG program on an Alpha and she will want to find a job programming on an = K Alpha (at least, the tools I went to college with felt that way). I think =rK a big part of the VMS problem is access and exposure, who knows about it, =iL and has access to it. Compaq is running the Test Drive Program (which I've =K used) and that is pretty good. The Hobbiest program is a huge step in the =sK right direction, all we need now is to saturate the secondary market with =AL cheap hardware that can run VMS (search for VAX and or Alpha on eBay, then = do one for Sparc).=20    Is it Happy Hour yet?o   =BFfoo?h  H >>> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> 06/22/2001 = 4:27:02 PM >>>K In article <sb336bf7.090@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> =A writes:c {... big snip...}iK >one point to hire a VMS admin and couldn't find one. There are MANY MANY =e =3Do  E Did he ever post the job requirement to VMSnet.Employment?  Being itsr+ moderator, I can assure you he did not. =20d  L >battle. I do it all the time, but when you're user community is generally = =3D C >over 40, closer to 50, nearing retirement, it's not being taught =n
 anywhere, =3DsJ >and noone is making a concerted effort to recruit fresh blood, what can = =3Dt >you expect?  F It wasn't being taught anywhere when I was closer to 20 either???  Yet' I use it and learned much about it! =20n --L VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot= )COM
           =20 K city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after =a them.w   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:53:36 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)hS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS 0 Message-ID: <009FDEC4.57CD61BB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Q In article <sb3373b8.000@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> writes:EL >Our HR department regulates how we're allowed to hire (yes, it's stupid). =J >As a 153 year old 501C not for Profit, we exclusively use head hunters. =I >This was two years ago, and I think they had the position open for six =d >months.  F Most head-hunters don't know a toaster from a microwave oven.  So why @ use them to fulfill your corporate computer/software/IT needs?      L >As for being taught, you're extraordinary Brian. Teach Sussy Cobol how to =  . My wife said that too on our wedding night! ;)    H >program on an Alpha and she will want to find a job programming on an =L >Alpha (at least, the tools I went to college with felt that way). I think =L >a big part of the VMS problem is access and exposure, who knows about it, =M >and has access to it. Compaq is running the Test Drive Program (which I've = L >used) and that is pretty good. The Hobbiest program is a huge step in the =L >right direction, all we need now is to saturate the secondary market with =M >cheap hardware that can run VMS (search for VAX and or Alpha on eBay, then =d >do one for Sparc).=20 >k >Is it Happy Hour yet?  F Yes it is.  I think I still have an Oatmeal Stout on ice in my fridge. What are you having?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn            rO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:08:05 -0400y+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>oS Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSh# Message-ID: <sb337b7a.088@aaas.org>u  I Our company doesn't like to post job openings externally. They'd rather =aJ have a head hunter filter them. Ours is actually pretty good, they hired = me didn't they <G>  G Please, please, please don't ever tell me what your wife said on your =uI wedding night. It's hard enough as it is not to act like a 12 year old, = J you're only encouraging me to say things like "that's what she said" and = "your mom".t  H I'm on my way to Capital Cities Brewing Company for a pint of Stoli in =J something. I haven't decided if it'll be Vanilla Stoli and Coke or Stoli =2 and OJ, but there will be Vodka, and plenty of it.  H >>> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> 06/22/2001 = 4:53:36 PM >>>K In article <sb3373b8.000@aaas.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> =d writes:iL >Our HR department regulates how we're allowed to hire (yes, it's stupid). = =3DcJ >As a 153 year old 501C not for Profit, we exclusively use head hunters. = =3DaI >This was two years ago, and I think they had the position open for six =  =3De >months.  H Most head-hunters don't know a toaster from a microwave oven.  So why=20B use them to fulfill your corporate computer/software/IT needs? =20    L >As for being taught, you're extraordinary Brian. Teach Sussy Cobol how to = =3Dt  . My wife said that too on our wedding night! ;)    J >program on an Alpha and she will want to find a job programming on an =3DL >Alpha (at least, the tools I went to college with felt that way). I think = =3DuL >a big part of the VMS problem is access and exposure, who knows about it, = =3DtH >and has access to it. Compaq is running the Test Drive Program (which = I've =3DL >used) and that is pretty good. The Hobbiest program is a huge step in the = =3DkL >right direction, all we need now is to saturate the secondary market with = =3D H >cheap hardware that can run VMS (search for VAX and or Alpha on eBay, = then =3D >do one for Sparc).=3D20 >  >Is it Happy Hour yet?  F Yes it is.  I think I still have an Oatmeal Stout on ice in my fridge. What are you having?   --L VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot= )COM
           =20fK city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after =8 them.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:04:39 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMs, Message-ID: <3B33CEF6.87B8069D@videotron.ca>   John Eisenschmidt wrote:C > >>> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 06/22/2001 3:29:28 PM >>>sD > > I personally know a few (very few) managers with more brain thanD > > most of their employees. These people don't watch TV (one or two > K > I agree. That's why my manager is someone who does know what she's doing.e    I Self selection.  Of course, the few VMS sites that remain have managementeL which have been able to resist the tidal wave of brainwashing to go UNIX/NT.J So if course, if you are a VMS shop, you will see that managers are smart.  M But i have lost customers becasue when the new manager was brought in, he wasbE convinced that the organisation HAD to go ALL microsoft with the onlyeK exception: ADOBE Page Maker and Framemaker. His reasoning was that by goingiM all microsoft, he was sure of having the right applications available, and beSK able to find lots of people to hire because that is what people are trained M on. And guess what, with all the problems and delays they had, they are stillmJ alove (they are a not-for profit organisation, so it doesn't really matter
 mind you).  L And you know what the microsoft weenies do: "yeah, I can do that with just aJ PC and a single user version of Access , mplemeted in 3 weeks". Then, whenJ they start to look at the project, they realise that they'll need a serverL farm, quite a few copies of MS-SQL, hires twice as many weenies and that theJ precvt will take 2 years instead of 2 weeks, but by that time, the guy wasS already hired and decision made to go that way. I have seen that happen many times.   E And this is where the entry-level cost of VMS is so important for its 
 survival.   K If you are going to restrict VMS only to those shops where managers are thebL old-style where technical is more important, you will find an ever narrowing potential customer base.  K Computers used to be handled by scientists. Now, decisions are made by beanmI counters who don't know how to quantify the advantage of SYSMAN to managenL multiple machines. But they do know the advantage of coming under budget forI the hardware/software acquisition bu going Wintel, and don't care so mucheK about a project taking much longer because that is a human resources issue,a not a purchasing issue.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:15:58 -0400,- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVM , Message-ID: <3B33D19C.96328D77@videotron.ca>   John Eisenschmidt wrote:F  My boss tried at one point to hire a VMS admin and couldn't find one.  I There are plenty of available VMS folks. But they are forced to find worksL elsewhere because there is so little work available and from a carreer point# of view, VMS is seen as a dead end.o  J Make VMS a viable alternative and you may find a whole lot of ex-VMS folks. coming out of the woodworkd and return to VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:28:42 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>yY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMI, Message-ID: <3B33D4AA.FD7AB656@infopuls.com>   John Eisenschmidt wrote: > C > >>> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 06/22/2001 3:29:28 PM >>>h > 
 > ::SNIP:: > D > > I personally know a few (very few) managers with more brain thanD > > most of their employees. These people don't watch TV (one or two > K > I agree. That's why my manager is someone who does know what she's doing.e > B > > customers?? Thank you very much, not with me and not with VMS.@ > > It's really hard to witness the destruction of VMS with thisB > > completely stupid UNIX/Slowaris compatibility initiative whichB > > could be interpreted that decision makers at Compaq don't seem> > > to understand the business. Did I mention that nobody withA > > interest in stable systems and a low TOC should use UNIX, thea@ > > puzzle of designless pieces of SW? The most stupid OS in the% > > world? Did I really mention this?  > &> I know you're angry, but don't take your frustrations out on Unix. I know I came of age in a different time, and I know this war has been going on for a long time, but VMS could take a few cues from Unix (and vice versa). Frankly, there are stupider OSes out there, and for different reasons.  < But why the hell would they ruin VMS with that UNIX (I'm not? allowed to use a strong four letter word unfortunately)?? There : are enough UNIXes out there and I don't want to have one!!  A > > One question: Does IBM strive for UNIX/Slowaris compatibilityMA > > for their AS400 whose OS has BTW one of the stupidest commande@ > > languages ever created? Opposite to the UNIX irregularity or< > > beeing free of any systematic approach the OS400 command7 > > language is inefficient regularity carved in stone.h > -> No, and coming from an all blue shop before I took over as caretaker for our Alphas I can tell you at one point I found OS/400 much more comforting and intuitive than VMS. We all come from different backgrounds and we all have different experience, and again DEC was at was with IBM for a long time.h > / > I rather liked the idea or "str prn wb01pr24"H   Everyone has her/his own taste.0  C > > customers. If I had money I would offer an email service with ai? > > money back warranty for beeing available 365x24 and for notrA > > losing emails (the connection to the internet must be failuretB > > tolerant also) based on VMS, offering the same availability asC > > most of the electronical bourse systems. Offering services thats > > This kind of statement reminds me of something I read a couple weeks ago. An RFC is out there for modifying the underlying principle of email to ensure delivery - something more attune to a layer 4 protocol (connection oriented, acknowledgement, etc). Email was designed to mimick postal mail, and THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. There is no such thing as guaranteed delivery. You have return receipts, but whatever.  C > > The point I always come back of thinking about: Did Digital and-B > > Compaq steal money from VMS? Digital was bancrupt, but becauseD > > of VMS? Did Compaq transfer money from the VMS earnings to other9 > > parts of the company? Of course VMS should pay a faire@ > > contribution to Alpha development, but so have Tru64 and NSK6 > > (maybe even more because of the lockstep support). >  > I think Digital was bankrupt (and correct me if I'm wrong) because they made mistakes. Marketing mistakes, product direction mistakes, "to OEM or not to OEM" mistakes, etc etc ad infinitum. Companies sometimes do that, but I doubt even internally when it was DEC you could ask "how much of our money is VMS's and how much of OSF-1's and how much is PDP's?" I mean, did they divide maintenance on hardware from new software sales revenue? Probably. Can you say what belongs to the OS and what belongs to the har) dware that runs the OS? I don't think so.o  @ This is a good point and I had exactly that in mind when I wrote> "contribution to Alpha development". There is a possibility to< calculate this. Unfortunately there a different models to do? this like in most other areas of econometry (e.g. how would yous= calculate the value of your stock when prices change?) but tor< chose the most appropriate method (or one valuable method at< all) is part of beeing a good entrepreneur. Because you must@ know how profitable the different parts of your business are and9 how they are interconnected. Of course you can't dump one ; business unit because of low profit if other business units < depend on it. But you have to know the costs of each of your= activities as close to reality as possible to understand yourt= company and to derive measurements for improvement other than @ global percentage oriented adjustment of the number of employees8 what most companies do if they encounter a bottleneck in liquidity or success.e  ? > > This won't work because the qualities which VMS excels withiD > > aren't trendy. One aspect according to my experience is that the= > > people who like VMS are much more technical oriented than=A > > others. They act as engineers in their companies and normallyS >  > Please, no one take what I am about to say the wrong way, but the people who like VMS tend to be older, career IT people. I went to three different colleges, I was a CS major at all three, none of them had Alphas or Vaxes, nowhere did they run VMS, never was VMS mentioned or taught. This is the second place I've worked where VMS was installed (the first being the White House). One person here could get around in it, one person at the White House was in charge of everything. Where does a person get exposur e to an Operating System they've never heard of or come across in their career? I'm an Oracle DBA, and it happened that where I work now runs Oracle on VMS, otherwise it would have never graced my resume.  ? This is probably right according to your experience but all theh> people I know personally and who aren't sys admins and who are using VMS are engineers.   > Understand this though, I feel enriched for having used it, I tell all my Unix friends about all the cool features of it, but I don't personally know another VMS administrator. Two of the sixteen people I work with now had VMS machines at prior jobs, but they never used it. My boss tried at one point to hire a VMS admin and couldn't find one. There are MANY MANY reasons that people don't choose to use VMS, all of which could be addressed, but it's really easy to blame Compaq for not fighting a losing batt le. I do it all the time, but when you're user community is generally over 40, closer to 50, nearing retirement, it's not being taught anywhere, and noone is making a concerted effort to recruit fresh blood, what can you expect?  ? From this aspect you are totally right and I only have recentlys= got in contact with UNIX. I never regarded UNIX as a valuable ; OS. So my idiosyncracy against UNIX started when people whoC8 didn't understand began to ruin VMS with this other ....@ (replace, please, with a strong four letter word). I never had a? UNIX vs VMS fight outside this NG. I really feel sad about thatT= people who don't know nothing about VMS are fighting for UNIXn: .... (you know what I'm asking for to do with these *four*: letter replacement dots) in this NG. This is an incredible. insult of VMS if an OS can be insulted at all.  ; Compaq has inherited a damaged situation wrt VMS. But aftern? buying Digital Compaq obviously didn't do what should have beeng= done. From a strategic point of view it seems that Palmer andt@ Intel planned all carefully not let Alpha and VMS play out their
 strengths.? If we adopt your diagnosis: why didn't Compaq start immediately ? to setup a decent Campus licencing scheme? Is that hard to look>6 what other, similar computer vendors did successfully?  ? From what I know there is enough left to blame Compaq for which * has been under complete control of Compaq.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:24:30 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS e, Message-ID: <3B339B6B.4138BE49@videotron.ca>  # > > *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*n  , Why does Nortel advertise so heavily on TV ?> Why does the New York Stock Exchange advertise heavily on TV ?  J Neither sell to consumers. But both see it as very important to be seen asM market leaders so that decision makers will choose their company over anothertI company. In the case of NYSE, they were seing a lot of companies going tocN NASDAQ for their IPOs instead of NYSE and they realised that they cannot allowL this trend to continue because NYSE would then be protrayed as "old economy"K and all the action would be on the NASDAQ. So the NYSE made those TV ads tomJ portray itself as a state of the art exchange with lots of "hot" companies) trading there and THE place to be listed.c  L Also, look at those .COM companies that still advertise on CNN. Names you'veM never heard before selling products for CRM, products that make your internetEK systems magically all integrate and work perfectly etc etc. By going on TV,=I your name gets some attention, and if you follow up with print ads in the=M right trade rags then those concerned are more liekly to read the ads to findm% out what your products are all about.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:23:25 +0200e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shou	ldbuy VMS VMS o+ Message-ID: <3B33A93D.5CCF800@infopuls.com>n   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] > > > > You are talking about different products, different marketB > > segments and different targets (people, companies). The IOMEGAB > > story isn't complete without the company which made replacableC > > HDs and competed with them, but anyway nothing of importance in D > > our context. Forget your kids watching TV! They're not the peers, > > you need to have the band waggon effect. > M > Well, first off, kids watching TV have a great amount of influence on theirtN > parents, and some of them are pretty smart (the really smart ones may not beN > watching TV, though :)  It's an indirect marketing.  In this case, it shouldJ > have the effect of making the parents think "even my (son, daughter) has > heard of this..."  > K > There are better places to start, I think.  In PHB mags (BOTASMs, as I've M > heard them referred to here), for instance, and Ziff-Davis publications. :)hM > Eventually a TV spot could help with brand recognition, if it were properly7 > executed.g  @ I'm not a marketing expert, but I don't think that marketing VMS< like any consumer product would make much sense. I know of a? computer magazin which doesn't advertise. It is now after there > decades one of the best and best sold ones but they only offer? you a decent book if you win a new customer. Having a good idea 8 about marketing VMS doesn't necessaryly mean to copy the< brilliant Apple campaign against the IBM PC if you remember.  # > > *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*t > M > That's true; it's hard to compare apples to apples, and nearly worthless to=K > compare Apples to Alphas. :)  This is the alchemy of advertising, though.gK > You must find a way for people to relate to your product.  It needs to beeK > advertised along-side the inferior (in this case) products so that people L > recognize it.  To understand this, just note the number of billyboxes thatJ > are shoehorned into places (like the work-place) that they don't belong.  < I'm still not convinced. I still think that unusual products need unusual measurements ;-)m > 
 > Regards, >  > Chriso > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");r > 'y >i   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 18:04:32 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)eP Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy, Message-ID: <9h01bg$220p$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3B324169.6B134FB4@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:i |> > T@ |> > I don't suppose it has occured to anyone yet that VMS isn't? |> > currently for sale.  And there have been no rumblings fromr8 |> > Compaq to hint that this might change anytime soon. |> hO |> But when customers start to feel that VMS would be better off if Compaq sold=M |> it to a company that is more interested, that sends a very strong message.   F If they haven't gotten that idea by now, yet another thread here isn't likely to convince them.   bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   F   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:37:28 +0200f) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy   VMS bu , Message-ID: <3B339E78.F8418682@infopuls.com>   Michael Joosten wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:) > >g > N > > > somehow the consumer is not in the "in crowd" because he's not using theL > > > latest and greatest - he's not "with it", and the second spouts enoughK > > > technical jargon that the consumer believes that it MUST be something G > > > really good because it's a NEW technology.  Branding through massaN > > > advertising leads to market penetration - always has, always will. IntelL > > > had an ad once that touted the CDROM as "internet connected"- what theL > > > hell does that mean? People bought it though.  And you've got to admit > F > That's certainly right for mass-market products, like Intel CPUs andJ > Windows. But, agreed, more agressive campaigns in more targeted channelsI > (IT journals, but also Business Week, Forbes and so on) would certainlyhI > help. I recall the book 'Barbarians led by Bill Gates', which dedicatedsH > a whole chapter to Gates' brilliant idea of mimicking 'brand building'F > and, thus , getting premium prices for commodity products (everybodyJ > needs it, but it's still just an OS, not a luxury watch or car). I couldJ > imagine more clever campaign, even commercials. In the current situationJ > (more and more virus attacks, servers harmed by athmospheric/radioactiveE > rays, even Linux now a target for worms and trojans), it is hard toyE > think about a juicy commercial portaying the hectic atmosphere of anH > NT/UNIX computing center and contrasting it with the relative peace ofI > an VMS cluster one (with a voice from off: Compaq VMS: The OS that justvE > runs and runs and runs...' or such...). Or take examples from majorgG > customers, VMS used in facility lines, steel mills, logistics, safetyaG > sensible areas and so on. If it is necessary, even quote some uses ofd > VMS in NASA...  @ Very nice - another reason for you to claim your price - I still; didn't get your bank connection data to transfer the money.t  I > > > that their commercials were visually sexy.  Why do you think the US  > >sA > > Have never seen one (no TV and I'm always to the movies so noi > > ads for me). > >tL > > > Marines used Medieval Battle scenes to sell the idea to sign your lifeN > > > away to them for a few years? Because kids eat it up.  I remember in theL > > > lobbies of movie theatres when the "Hunt for Red October" was playing,L > > > the Navy got permission to do recruiting drives on the spot.  A lot ofK > > > people joined right there beliving they would be serving on a nuclear 
 > > > sub. > >tA > > Yes, with this type of campain you will get exactly the wrong  > > customers. > >  > I > Oh my god... 'Join the marine and you get your free Skull&Bones tattoo'f > ???V   :-)e  I > > > not paying attention to their feminine napkin ad? And they only getlL > > > about 30-60 seconds to convince you. Branding through mass advertisingM > > > WORKS.  If you want VMS to sell, make it a household name - make it thefG > > > NEW thing.  For crying out loud, BELLBOTTOMS came back - and theyx > > > pre-date > > > VMS!!! > > >M > > > HM > >gA > > I don't agree with the idea and attitude. My analysis is that D > > the good customers are quality oriented and the target of VMS is9 > > *only* this ev. small market share of smart managers.e > I > Still, it's the awareness point that's important here. OF COURSE it has'J > to be balanced, so not to shy away the real customers ('it might be good8 > product, but what a cheesy/pretentious commercial...')  = Exactly! But I agree that some constant mentioning to have itt> talked about. I personally would like to have a regular column@ in all the UNIX magazins like "A view from the other side of the? fence" or something like that. Terry Shannon would be very goodn; as senior guest columnist is several computer magazins. Thei< point is to have VMS mentioned to get it talked about at the
 right places.s  E > So, if VMS' current 'bastion' is the financial sector, it should be I > perfectly ok to hammer this target sector with advertisements. The onlyUH > problem here is to combine the 'stability/reliabilty' strengths with aG > suitable dose of 'sexiness', to show that VMS is alive, kicking AND av( > real choice. => where are the apps....  @ Yes, where are the apps? Reverting a trend is real hard work and: needs time, money, vision, ideas and good people (the good product is already there).? And I would try to expand into other markets. In the 80ties VMSa: was strong in factory lines like the ones for the chemical= industry. In every area where virtues of VMS excel there is a  potential customer.e   > --, > Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de, > Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany. > Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 606065: > C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:29:28 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company should buy VMS VMSVe, Message-ID: <3B339C98.13405A4A@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:n >  > Christof Brass wrote:d@ > > VMS is world wide. I'm only talking about smart managers whoB > > make the financial decisions. Your point is exactly what I hadD > > in mind when I asked about procedures and operation. Having some4 > > Sculley guy from a VC is the last thing we need. > = > Agreed. Scully and Palmer are of the same destructive camp.e > K > But having a guy such as Steve Jobs with vision, charisma and good camerat# > presence would do wonder for VMS.m   My words :-)   > # > > *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*u > I > I disagree with this. The days where educated scientists made technicalmN > recommendations for a VMS solution are long gone. You now have pointy hairedM > managers who watch Simpsons and TV and look at the large pictures in ads onh1 > trade rags are the ones who make the decisions.v  @ I personally know a few (very few) managers with more brain than@ most of their employees. These people don't watch TV (one or two; of them don't even have a TV at home). To compete on a mereq8 marketing/advertising base to get these stupid people as> customers?? Thank you very much, not with me and not with VMS.< It's really hard to witness the destruction of VMS with this> completely stupid UNIX/Slowaris compatibility initiative which> could be interpreted that decision makers at Compaq don't seem: to understand the business. Did I mention that nobody with= interest in stable systems and a low TOC should use UNIX, the < puzzle of designless pieces of SW? The most stupid OS in the! world? Did I really mention this?e  = One question: Does IBM strive for UNIX/Slowaris compatibility,= for their AS400 whose OS has BTW one of the stupidest commands< languages ever created? Opposite to the UNIX irregularity or8 beeing free of any systematic approach the OS400 command3 language is inefficient regularity carved in stone.   N > These managers are sheep who make sure that they follow the heard as closelyP > as possible for a variaty of reasons, one of which is to protect themselves byK > always selecting the same solution everyone else appears to be selecting.   ? The old story of "nobody got fired for buying IBM or Micro$hit"o: we all know this but I don't buy it. VMS doesn't need that? customers. If I had money I would offer an email service with a ; money back warranty for beeing available 365x24 and for notO= losing emails (the connection to the internet must be failurei> tolerant also) based on VMS, offering the same availability as? most of the electronical bourse systems. Offering services thatb> companies using something like UNIX or Micro$hit so called OSs< can't offer with the same low TOC and with the same level of; quality is the way to go. I stop here my lesson in businessc5 strategy, market penetration and technical viability.h  ? The point I always come back of thinking about: Did Digital andn> Compaq steal money from VMS? Digital was bancrupt, but because@ of VMS? Did Compaq transfer money from the VMS earnings to other5 parts of the company? Of course VMS should pay a fairr< contribution to Alpha development, but so have Tru64 and NSK2 (maybe even more because of the lockstep support).  O > For VMS to make inroads in today,s marketplace, they have to use Marketing tohP > show VMS as a mainstream solution that those pointy haired managers won't have > a problem selecting. > P > In other words, you need to use marketing to create a VMS trend and make VMS a > trendy product.   ; This won't work because the qualities which VMS excels witha@ aren't trendy. One aspect according to my experience is that the9 people who like VMS are much more technical oriented thana= others. They act as engineers in their companies and normallyr> can't believe what certain managers use to make decisions. The@ consequence is that they can't imagine that's necessary to fight= for their platform. What might be useful for VMS if Compaq iso< really interesting in expanding the business is to equip the@ current sys admins and other people using it in a position where6 they have an influence about purchasing decisions with> documentation and argumentation material. Apple did this a few< years ago. They had an extensive list of 100 point why MacOS= would be better than Windoze. And they had some "independent"n> surveys about the users (e.g. Mac users knew about 5 apps very@ well, whereas PC user only knew 2 or 3) and TOC showing that the= Mac solution would be much better. If engineers developing on < VMS (SW) or using it as construction platform (CAD etc.) are< standing up for their OS this might influence the purchasing
 decisions.  > But anyway to revert a trend which has as one aspect 3rd party> SW developing companies giving up on VMS is and will be a real@ hard piece of work. There is only one big market and whoever has2 the minor share has to fight against the majority.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:46:27 +0200.& From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>W Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy     VMSa$ Message-ID: <3B341F23.500F@c-lab.de>  C Sitting over the preps for a project meeting next week and about tow# leave for Paris in 4 hours, yawn...d     Christof Brass wrote:  >  > Michael Joosten wrote: > >c > > Christof Brass wrote:o > > >s  D > > to get sufficient rebates from OEMs for large orders), or a veryF > > fluctuating one, as Siemens Semi was heavy in the DRAM market. TheL > > consequences can be seen when comparing Infineon's share prices over the0 > > last 24 months - skyrocketing and now woosh.I > > So, Siemens tried and likely will try to get rid of subsidiaries thatp@ > > are 'growth spoilers' and don't behave in a predictable way. > A > I see the spin offs a little bit different: as Siemens as very,f@ > very much money they want to minimise the risk to be forced to? > pay for losses in areas where these can happen. This makes it1A > logical to separate semiconductor and PC and Server units. Theyu  F I'm still convinced that it's more the shareholders' appreciation thatE plays the major role here. Siemens used to be a typical conglomerate,SF where profits and losses were often balanced between divisions withoutG sometimes even the board of directors exactly knowing what was going oneF - not to mention shareholders. 'Shareholder Value' is quite a new word for German incorporations!    = > tried to sell their PC business a few years ago but I don'thA > remember to what company which lost its interest shortly beforeQ( > the contracts should have been signed. >   G That was Acer. When the deal should be signed, the Asia crisis was justbD at its peak, so Acer simply did neither have the stock value nor the cash to pay for SNI/PC.     F > > 2. Please consider that Fujitsu-Siemens has already outsourced itsK > > facility lines in Paderborn to Flextronics. These are the lines for the I > > Reliant (RM600, RM400) and larger PC servers (Primergy). I'm not sureeI > > about the facilities in Augsburg (smaller PCs, BS2000 (?)) and, then,a' > > Soemmerda (Fujitsu's consumer PCs).e > @ > I don't see an obstacle in that because Alphas are produced on8 > "foreign" factories for some time (Palmer/Intel deal). > >e  G What did I want say with this... Well, it's quite possible that SiemensaF will sell their share of Siemens Fujitsu in a not-so-far future. WhileG I'm not up-to-date with their business numbers, I'm probably right thatrC besides PCs (which have a very low margin) the midframe business atSH least has not been a successful one in the last years. SNI server alwaysG were expensive, a little 'over-engineered' (typically German), but wellbH appreciated by their longtime customers. It's similar to a German car...F In that respect, VMS/DEC and Siemens would probably fit quite well, asG their engineers share the same 'naughty' (mgmt perspective) fondness ofb= perfection. In German, this is known as to build just anothertD 'einerlegende Wollmichsau' (oviparous wool-milk-sow) - intends to doC everything, but unfortunately nothing perfect because of inevitablei compromises.  J > > Please also consider that they quite early announced to drop their ownI > > UNIX variant, Reliant UNIX in favour of Solaris. The main factors foro > > this decision were clearly:g< > > a) get a single OS for all server hardware: Solaris x86,) > >    Itanium/McKinley AND Fujitsu/SPARC H > > b) problematic market situation for MIPS-based servers, because also, > >    showed continued loss of market share  B The word 'SGI' is missing here. I really should review my postings" before hitting the magical button.    E > > So, why then should they engage themselves with 'just another' OSeJ > > (sorry, might sound like a sacrilege...) ?? And even an additional CPU5 > > base (Alpha) if they just getting rid of MIPS ???n > @ > There are several reasons: VMS isn't UNIX; having another UNIX> > really doesn't make sense how reliable it would be. The UNIX2 > market is splitted into too many parts already.   E Yes, the trend is certainly to 'fewer' UNIXes, but I would guess it'st< also to 'fewer' operating systems! I do not thing Siemens orD Fujitsu-Siemens looks at OS first - for them, it's rather a means to@ sell hardware, and together with, say, SBS as consulting branch,H complete projects with customized configuration/installation/hosting. AnE additional OS would probably rather seen as distractive than being anr asset...     Slowaris will beA > dropped by SUN sooner or later, the x86 variant is almost dying ? > - one major reason: no 3rd party SW - they all went to Linux.l  F Yes. But that's not that problematic, as Linux is mostly strong on theE desktop. SNI has, in fact, worked with SAP to port R/3 on Linux, made 3 large memory (>2GB) patches for Linux and the like.   ? > Several of your reasons are a description of mistaked made incB > that strategy. I know one brilliant person at Siemens/Munich who@ > wouldn't repeat that. Of course there is no warranty that this> > won't happen again but at least Siemens isn't under pressureB > with their stock value and probably never will in the forseeable	 > future.0  E True, it has 'deep pockets', and it was called until a short time agoaF the 'bank with that electrical equipment department' (Die Bank mit der? Elektroabteilung). Still, US-style of accounting and managementeE (quarterly reports and shareholder value, namely) has taken its entrylG into Siemens. Plus the bad experiences over the last 10 years with SNI,hE especially the software divisions of it. Siemens simply don't want tooC make software products - using shrink-wrapped software in projects,vH customizing, perhaps extending them is ok, but making a software product is almost verboten.   5 > This is in strong contrast to almost all USamerican B > companies. Siemens is also one of the companies which can affordB > to compete with Micro$hit, Intel and IBM. They were able to work; > with Fujitsu to develop SPARC clones which means not onlyl/ > competition with SUN but also with Micro$hit.- >   F One of the resumees of 'Barbarians led by Bill Gates' is that MS needsH to make absolutely sure that their cash cows are maximum safe - in orderF to be able to sustain the typical bunch of major mistakes overly largeB corporations are so fond of doing without taking the company down.  D While most of the experience with SPARC is from Fujitsu, it might beE that for the new high-end servers (E1000 competitors) some ideas fromhE the highend RM600 clusters (NUMA/CC and so on) were used. But I'm noteE sure - rumor is rather that quite some people from server developmentn have already left.     > > > D > > > Exactly - it would make much more sense to replace BS2000 with  > > > VMS than any other option.B > > > The company has more than enough money to port all necessary& > > > apps beside paying for the deal. > > >v > >   I > > the hardware, too. And R/3, well, we had this discussion already. VMSPI > > needs 'thrust' to make a first class R/3 host, to be eligible in thishF > > game. Plus, I'm not sure how widespread VMS is in use in financial# > > sector in Europe, save Germany.  > ? > VMS is strong on the bourse side. VMS needs probably a decentoB > SAP implementation. Siemans can put some presure on that. Having8 > VMS as client banking platform wouldn't be a bad idea. >   H Applying Occam's Razor, wouldn't it be more prudent from Fujitsu-SiemensH point of view to just let VMS and perhaps also Tru64 wither away? If youD have a reputation of producing somewhat expensive, but very reliable@ hardware, couldn't it be a better idea to actually position your, computers as alternative to VMS clusters ???    B > > Next one: There is no record or tradition of VMS in Siemens orL > > Fujitsu-Siemens or SBS that I'm aware of. Nixdorf had a cluster of VAXesD > > back in the late '80 for its hardware development dept. (runningH > > SCICARDS and pre-PDMS system) but this was quite early ditched afterK > > Siemens bought Nixdorf in 90. On the other hand, this would mean a goodcH > > complement (instead of a 'synergy', with lots of overlapping areas). > A > I agree with the argument of lacking tradition. But I don't seee7 > this as an obstacle because all people developing VMSmB > will/should/must join. A good company buys the tradition when it0 > buys another company if the tradition is good. >   H If don't already have staff for NT and UNIX development, where would youG get them for VMS ??? That's actually another problem, which others haveaF already mentioned in the past months (D. Mathog, B. Gunshannon, etc).     I > > But that's only if they would merge or buy each other. If they don't,dH > > why should Fujitsu-Siemens buy an OS (ok, with customers) based on aJ > > hardware that comes from one of its main competitors (PCs, Itanium andE > > RISC UNIX servers)? I don't see the logic here, sorry. Or is that." > > CEO/stock market logic 8-)) ?? > @ > Siemens has a strong technical tradition. There are still lotsB > of people at Siemens who are at first place good engineers. ThisB > would exactly the type of place which is appropriate for VMS. As> > I pointed out earlier: Siemens is already competing with theB > competitors. MIPS is a different story (as pointed out earlier). >   E Yes, I agree on the first part. Though it might be a bit hard to find ) monocycles in the Paderborn facilities...i      K > > waiting for PC164 board someone promised me in exchange for SGI gear in 6 > > order to at least play around with OpenVMS again). > ? > So this is funding your first steps - send the information myh< > email address is valid you don't have to send it publicly. >   D I'm not convinced that this fair - I did not intend to actually take" part. BTW, where are you located?   B Well, must go now, plane is due in 3 hours and I haven't packed my" suitcase yet. See you in 5 days...  ? PS: It might be interesting to hear also the opinions of otherstG concerning Siemens-Fujitsu here ! Or is SNI/Siemens-Fujitsu too unknownb in 'the Americas' ??   --  * Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:21:55 -0500o+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>lY Subject: RE: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMS V L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FC9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>    ? > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]  < > > There are better places to start, I think.  In PHB mags  > (BOTASMs, as I'vem? > > heard them referred to here), for instance, and Ziff-Davis o > publications. :)? > > Eventually a TV spot could help with brand recognition, if   > it were properly
 > > executed.h  B > I'm not a marketing expert, but I don't think that marketing VMS> > like any consumer product would make much sense. I know of a  K No, it makes no sense, but here's why you'd have to do at least some of it:-  G There are other products which are being marketed as consumer products,sK which claim to be able to do the things which VMS will actually deliver. :)s  ) Imagine this conversation, if you will...-  J Engineer:  I think an Alphastation running VMS would be the best way to do N.  J F___wit:  But that's so expensive, and Windows can do N.  (Microshaft said so!)  B Engineer:  Windows can't do N reliably, or in a scalable manner...  K F___wit:  Oh, that's fixed now, Microsoft has reports on the reliability ofVG Windows doing N. (Looks great compared to the last version of Windows!)s  > Engineer:  VMS has been doing N for years longer than Windows.  I F___wit:  VMS is dying, blah, blah... I can't justify making that kind of  investment...etc  F Engineer:  VMS really is world-class in its ability to do N, you can't afford not to have it!  G F___wit:  I think you may be letting your personal prejudice cloud your K technical judgment.  I'm just going to order a peesee with Microsoft Activet N...   (ARGH!)   L Basically, the idea is that generally, being less technically competent (whoG can blame them, it's not their job to be technicians, and they probablyeH don't enjoy it as a hobby...), the people in high places tend to go withG what they know (read that: go with the only thing they've heard about),t7 ignoring the protests of people who actually do know.     B I know some companies where this isn't the case.  For most, it is.  H Modern business is not that much different from 50 years ago.  It hasn'tK kept up with the times.  Because of that, most people can't tell a computernE from a shoebox. (or is that, most people can't tell a computer from ae5 shoebox, so modern business isn't much different...?)n  L It's unfortunate, but most people who happen to be in a position to make the right decision will not.  A > computer magazin which doesn't advertise. It is now after theres@ > decades one of the best and best sold ones but they only offerA > you a decent book if you win a new customer. Having a good ideaa: > about marketing VMS doesn't necessaryly mean to copy the> > brilliant Apple campaign against the IBM PC if you remember.  F I like to read Doctor Dobbs' Journal on occasion.  It's still a decentC magazine, but I can't help but remember the time when it never even K mentioned windows, or had advertisements for windows products.  It was justgH good generic information on general programming topics.  These days it'sH degenerated heavily into windows specific stuff.  (Not nearly so much as other publications...)  H Yes, I certainly remember Apple's campaign.  It was great, and VMS needsL something like that, in the sense that it should cause as much of a "splash"= as the apple campaign did.  It needn't be similar otherwise. y  C Perhaps Compaq should make its "Nonstop" commercials more specific.M something like:d   "   $ .. Microsoft Windows:  X days, stop.   .. Sun Solaris: XXX days stop.  $ .. Compaq OpenVMS: XX years Nonstop.   .. Compaq NSK...   .. reset button?   "c  % > > > *VMS is not a cigarette brand!*c  > > I'm still not convinced. I still think that unusual products > need unusual measurements ;-)t  I That's true.  The more unusual the method of advertising, the more peopleaH will take notice.  I just wonder what is unusual enough to do the trick.  : I don't think spraypainting VMS on sidewalks will do it...  J Perhaps they need to make a spectacle of themselves.  Put a VMS cluster inL control of a large wall of LCD panels on the front of one of their buildings& and have it do real-time raytracing ;)   Regards,   Chrisn  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  'c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:07:17 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVMa, Message-ID: <3B33A575.DEAE6C5D@infopuls.com>   Michael Joosten wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:t > >  > > Bingo - Game Over! > >  >  > ROTFL^3 !g >  > WHAT? Seriously ???p > G > I just realized that it is rather VMS than DEC/COMPAQ we are speaking B > about, so my 'idea' was rather one based on wrong assumptions... > B > So, it looks that I'm entitled to dissuade you of this, oh my... >  > Let's see.J > 1. Siemens itself is striving to become the 'next' GE. I.e., from a pureI > shareholder's perspective a good long-term profit growth story, to showyJ > that such a 'product conglomerate' (from washmachines to process plants)G > company is not just a 'profit flatliner' where wins and losses in thehI > sectors almost average out. Consequently, computers (SNI) were sold outpG > (well, shared with Fujitsu) and Siemens Semiconductor was spun off to D > Infineon. Both were branches with a problematical market situationF > (Siemens Nixdorf (SNI) had a good market share of PCs in Germany andJ > Europe, but not large enough to compete with Dell, Compaq, etc, in orderB > to get sufficient rebates from OEMs for large orders), or a veryD > fluctuating one, as Siemens Semi was heavy in the DRAM market. TheJ > consequences can be seen when comparing Infineon's share prices over the. > last 24 months - skyrocketing and now woosh.G > So, Siemens tried and likely will try to get rid of subsidiaries thatt> > are 'growth spoilers' and don't behave in a predictable way.  ? I see the spin offs a little bit different: as Siemens as very, > very much money they want to minimise the risk to be forced to= payfor losses in areas where these can happen. This makes it ? logical to separate semiconductor and PC and Server units. Theyq; tried to sell their PC business a few years ago but I don'tr? remember to what company which lost its interest shortly beforei& the contracts should have been signed.  G > > > If similarity would be a decisive factor, I'd appoint ... Fujitsur > > > Siemens. > > > M > > > Similar structure: Large PC 'foreground', large mainframe/midframe/UNIXe > > > server 'background'. > > > M > > > Besides Windows, more than a single additional OS: BS2000, Reliant UNIX N > > > aka SINIX. Not mention different hardware lines, as the UNIX servers run5 > > > on MIPS, the mainframes on propietary CPUs (?).  > > >l > D > 2. Please consider that Fujitsu-Siemens has already outsourced itsI > facility lines in Paderborn to Flextronics. These are the lines for theeG > Reliant (RM600, RM400) and larger PC servers (Primergy). I'm not sureoG > about the facilities in Augsburg (smaller PCs, BS2000 (?)) and, then,n% > Soemmerda (Fujitsu's consumer PCs).h  > I don't see an obstacle in that because Alphas are produced on6 "foreign" factories for some time (Palmer/Intel deal). >aH > Please also consider that they quite early announced to drop their ownG > UNIX variant, Reliant UNIX in favour of Solaris. The main factors fore > this decision were clearly: : > a) get a single OS for all server hardware: Solaris x86,' >    Itanium/McKinley AND Fujitsu/SPARC F > b) problematic market situation for MIPS-based servers, because also* >    showed continued loss of market shareC > c) lack of applications for Reliant/UNIX, because apart from thatsI >    'experiment' called RM200, a PC size workstation with R5000 in, hmm,eJ >    '95, SNI just produced servers (small to large: RM300, RM400, RM600).J >    Consequently, there were no cheap developer machines, and because theC >    OS was different from IRIX, no merged 'architecture market' toiJ >    increase their market share. (Though once they used a 'compatibility'= >    shared library to use at least some tools made for IRIX,a >    e.g. netscape.h > C > So, why then should they engage themselves with 'just another' OSsH > (sorry, might sound like a sacrilege...) ?? And even an additional CPU3 > base (Alpha) if they just getting rid of MIPS ???p  > There are several reasons: VMS isn't UNIX; having another UNIX< really doesn't make sense how reliable it would be. The UNIX@ market is splitted into too many parts already. Slowaris will be? dropped by SUN sooner or later, the x86 variant is almost dyingo= - one major reason: no 3rd party SW - they all went to Linux.l= Several of your reasons are a description of mistaked made inn@ that strategy. I know one brilliant person at Siemens/Munich who> wouldn't repeat that. Of course there is no warranty that this< won't happen again but at least Siemens isn't under pressure@ with their stock value and probably never will in the forseeable; future. This is in strong contrast to almost all USamericane@ companies. Siemens is also one of the companies which can afford@ to compete with Micro$hit, Intel and IBM. They were able to work9 with Fujitsu to develop SPARC clones which means not only - competition with SUN but also with Micro$hit.b  L > > > Similar Situation: Future of UNIX servers and mainframes is uncertain,N > > > BS2000 is more and more a legacy product, and Reliant UNIX together withK > > > MIPS-based CPU modules will be ditched for Solaris on Itanium. Due toaL > > > Fujitsu, there is already a full replacement for the RM600/RM400 line,7 > > > namely the Fujitsu SPARC servers (GP7000 and up).t > > B > > Exactly - it would make much more sense to replace BS2000 with > > VMS than any other option.@ > > The company has more than enough money to port all necessary$ > > apps beside paying for the deal. > >r > J > Hmmm. I'm not at all a BS2000 expert, having never seen it, never tastedA > it, never spoke with experts of it. So this is probably a wrongs > extrapolation: > C > In my view, the BS2000 market is Germany only with a few spots in H > Europe. Main sectors are financial and government/administration. I doJ > not think that there are 'new' customers ordering BS2000 gear, thereforeJ > I called it a 'legacy product' - only BS2000'ers will probably order newC > ones. There are already migration strategies, like BS2000-on-MIPSmI > instead of the propietary CPUs, and UNIX services on BS2000 (like IBM'sy	 > OSS ?).   = I don't see that as a problem, instead this is the chance: Ton+ have an OS which is an alternative to UNIX.o  D > I would compare it with the situation IBM might have been in a fewC > years ago, when everybody touted that mainframes will die exactlyoJ > 12/31/1999: 'Make sure that we get some profit from it, but don't reallyG > extend the business - if the mainframe market goes belly-up, we don'ti4 > want an expensive clunker chained at our pockets.' > H > Again, I'm not sure if this has changed (as it has changed inside IBM,H > apparently) in the last years. Even so, MVS is MVS, but who is BS2000? > D > Can't speak about the government sector, but remember having heard' > something about financial a year ago:s > B > SBS is hosting mainframes from large institutions, complete withE > applications. With BS2000, a major application was/is KORDOBA (fromnD > Siemens/SNI) for general banking (savings and checking accounts, II > think, but not investment). Because SNI (Siemens Nixdorf) decided a fewpJ > years ago to almost get rid of software development, KORDOBA very likelyG > has already a EOL date. Compare this with the major changes in GermanlG > and European banking, with more and more focus on investment banking,sE > stock trading, etc. Consequently, the CIOs of the leading financialuF > institutes in Germany have pressure from two sides: The applicationsD > need to be improved and so on, while at the same time most of thisD > software is custom developed from either the IT dept. of the banksI > themselves or small software houses, heavily customized. No wonder thatwJ > there is some rumor that SAP will build (or has already) a dedicated R/3I > module for banking. Consequently, there is a trend (CEO level, probablytG > not CIO level !! The prospect of having a R/3 thingy managing banking G > accounts probably drives many IT bosses in banking 'the walls up') tohH > ditch their existing applications and hop on that SAP mammoth. In caseH > of a existing BS2000 infrastructure, this would probably mean ditchingG > the hardware, too. And R/3, well, we had this discussion already. VMSaG > needs 'thrust' to make a first class R/3 host, to be eligible in thisiD > game. Plus, I'm not sure how widespread VMS is in use in financial! > sector in Europe, save Germany.o  = VMS is strong on the bourse side. VMS needs probably a decente@ SAP implementation. Siemans can put some presure on that. Having6 VMS as client banking platform wouldn't be a bad idea.  @ > Next one: There is no record or tradition of VMS in Siemens orJ > Fujitsu-Siemens or SBS that I'm aware of. Nixdorf had a cluster of VAXesB > back in the late '80 for its hardware development dept. (runningF > SCICARDS and pre-PDMS system) but this was quite early ditched afterI > Siemens bought Nixdorf in 90. On the other hand, this would mean a good?F > complement (instead of a 'synergy', with lots of overlapping areas).  ? I agree with the argument of lacking tradition. But I don't sees5 this as an obstacle because all people developing VMS @ will/should/must join. A good company buys the tradition when it. buys another company if the tradition is good.  J > > > Then we have the Synergy Effect (very important, was touted as majorH > > > factor when Siemens bought Nixdorf 10 years ago 8-)): very similarJ > > > product lines, so massive layoff opportunities to boost share prices
 > > > 8-(( > > >e > G > But that's only if they would merge or buy each other. If they don't,iF > why should Fujitsu-Siemens buy an OS (ok, with customers) based on aH > hardware that comes from one of its main competitors (PCs, Itanium andC > RISC UNIX servers)? I don't see the logic here, sorry. Or is that   > CEO/stock market logic 8-)) ??  > Siemens has a strong technical tradition. There are still lots@ of people at Siemens who are at first place good engineers. This@ would exactly the type of place which is appropriate for VMS. As< I pointed out earlier: Siemens is already competing with the@ competitors. MIPS is a different story (as pointed out earlier).   > >t' > > Send your bank account information.  > H > And, in fact, I do NOT even qualify for this: While having learned VMSI > along with UNIX in '87, I haven't seen a (running) VMS machine since 10 H > years. Even given away (but not ditched or ebayed) the remnants of ourI > old uVAX II GPX, which was mostly running Ultrix V2 when junked in '94,tE > so I'm currently without any DEC hardware. There are only 4 old red I > manuals left, MicroVMS 1/2 and the Programming Support ones... (But I'miI > waiting for PC164 board someone promised me in exchange for SGI gear ino4 > order to at least play around with OpenVMS again).  = So this is funding your first steps - send the information myd: email address is valid you don't have to send it publicly.   > --, > Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de, > Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany. > Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 606065: > C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:14:36 +0200o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>sY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuyVMS VMS VMe, Message-ID: <3B33A72C.D82AA4CD@infopuls.com>   Jim Johnson wrote: > / > I don't see that the two are in any way tied.0 > H > First, for an open source approach to work there will still need to beG > a driver.  That clearly doesn't need all of the current staff, but itt > does need some of it.s  = Open Source projects need active consulting, coordination andh: quality control. There are already some examples of former< commercial SW that have been open sourced without any single? developer losing his/her job. The VMS engineering jobs are safef - I assume safer than now.  F > Second, Compaq is still going to want hardware support for its stuffH > showing up immediately, and that's going to consume another tranche of% > staff (much like today, I'd guess).h > D > Finally, my personal guess is that if Compaq offered OpenVMS in anG > open source manner, there would still be a solid business in offeringa> > a fully validated and supported configuration (ala RedHat orA > InterBase).  Doing a good job on that would take a new group oft	 > people.  > B > So, on one hand, the combined set, IMHO, would be at or near theE > current staffing requirements.  This isn't a way to drastically cuts > costs. > E > On the other hand, given the current OpenVMS customer base, I don'trD > see much downside on the revenue stream inasmuch as I'd guess that> > these customers would want a validated and supported system.  = Exactly. The business model of open source for enterprises is ; *not* having all SW for free and than doing the support andr> development itself. Instead having a good support company will* continue one major differentiating factor.  D > Finally, on the gripping hand, providing OpenVMS in an open sourceE > manner does greatly increase the available talent (i.e. all of you) G > for getting changes made that would be otherwise unlikely to get made D > today.  For those of you that are old enough, think how this wouldE > have changed the way project accounting played out.  This, in turn,dE > may well help increase the number of potential OpenVMS customers...i  ? Exactly. I don't start to report alladvantages because they arel? well known generally for open source over closed source. But ine> the case of VMS there are some unique advantages because it is> the only exemplar of its kind all people attracted to it would> have the chance to really participate in and contribute to its future.w  G > Without trying to be too Panglossian, it seems like the best possible  > world to me. >  > Just my own personal opinion.y >  > Jim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:48:20 -0300a) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brs Subject: Re: SadnessL Message-ID: <OF9270A3B2.4C406455-ON03256A73.0045F264@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  
 IntelVMS ?  F Sounds great ......  But I dont believe because Intel is discontinuingB their network division ! I believe they dont have interest to sell ready mahcines ! ! !  ( What about:     Nokia :    NokiaVMS !!!!     Regardsr   FC        6 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> em 22/06/2001 08:30:45  1 Favor responder a Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>y             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma       Assunto: Re: Sadness    C On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:27 +0010, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aue wrote:  H >Well, this weekend our corporate believe they have done the right thing8 >and gone to Tru64.  Nice advice, nice money for Compaq.  C Tru64? I predict you'll have to migrate to Linux down the line. I'deE bet money today on VMS being actively developed after Tru64 is just aa8 memory. That's how I read Tru64/Linux "affinity" anyway.  B And what with this rumour regarding a sell off of the Alpha design team to Intel. Well...  = Now if Compaq were to sell Alpha + VMS to Intel that might bei interesting...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:18:41 -0400c) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>o Subject: Re: sadness; Message-ID: <fvPY6.46943$uR5.5141743@news20.bellglobal.com>X   >rK > A follow-up to Sue's latest mail's, they are seeing no support for Oracle G > Financials, nor from a company called MinCom.  Our corporate has beensG > advised all round (by Compaq) to forsake VMS --- it's dead.  Nor fromu) > Matlab, nor PSSE (a technical thingie).p >l  H I'm hoping the Compaq employee who gave that advice is only expressing aG personal opinion (and then should be fired). I'm aware of several "NEW" L projects starting in my employer's company (the name can't be disclosed hereI but we're in excess of 30K employees) that are based on OpenVMS on Alpha.eH Also, I was under the impression that Oracle was taking a second look at supporting Oracle on OpenVMS.p  L On a related point, I don't know why companies play the game of "let's focusL on only a few products to maximize profits". This turns them into "one trickG ponies" which makes them vulnerable to failure. In essence, that's whatRJ happened to Nortel; they decided to focus on the optical networking marketG which quickly saturated and then hit the wall during the "dot com" melttD down. Companies shouldn't ever shut down profitable revenue sources.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/C   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:37:09 -0400 - From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>i Subject: Re: sadness- Message-ID: <3B33D6A4.F52E8C8F@bellsouth.net>s   Neil Rieck wrote:o   > > M > > A follow-up to Sue's latest mail's, they are seeing no support for OraclepI > > Financials, nor from a company called MinCom.  Our corporate has beensI > > advised all round (by Compaq) to forsake VMS --- it's dead.  Nor frome+ > > Matlab, nor PSSE (a technical thingie).a > >e >tJ > I'm hoping the Compaq employee who gave that advice is only expressing aI > personal opinion (and then should be fired). I'm aware of several "NEW"sN > projects starting in my employer's company (the name can't be disclosed hereK > but we're in excess of 30K employees) that are based on OpenVMS on Alpha.hJ > Also, I was under the impression that Oracle was taking a second look at > supporting Oracle on OpenVMS.n >nN > On a related point, I don't know why companies play the game of "let's focusN > on only a few products to maximize profits". This turns them into "one trickI > ponies" which makes them vulnerable to failure. In essence, that's whatsL > happened to Nortel; they decided to focus on the optical networking marketI > which quickly saturated and then hit the wall during the "dot com" meltmF > down. Companies shouldn't ever shut down profitable revenue sources. >   P Unfortunately in order to be a CEO you must 1st) get a lobotomy, 2nd) drink someM nasty voodoo mixture that makes you become a NYSE zombie, 3rd) make decisions L based on the information spewed forth from stock analysts lips.  All of thisO results in companies becoming "one trick ponies".     You need only look as faraM as Digital to find that this is true. You also start to hear garbage like "we:O must get back to our core competencies"... then once they outsource everything,.N they then find out that what they outsourced (at great expense I might add...)E WAS their core competency, and believe it or not, the IT shop of most O manufacturing plants is included here.  Only the workers who disigned the stuff E (9 times out of 10) really understand how it works and how to fix it.s   my $.02USD worth.    Michael Austin DBA Consultant       >e > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:12:58 -0700s% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>a Subject: Re: sadness) Message-ID: <3B34093A.201A7014@rdrop.com>o   Michael Austin wrote:  > Q > must get back to our core competencies"... then once they outsource everything, P > they then find out that what they outsourced (at great expense I might add...)G > WAS their core competency, and believe it or not, the IT shop of mosti  F What he said...  My parent company is doing this right now, in a hurryD to sell off anything not part of their "core business" (including myB group) so they can get back to focusing on the largest part of theF business, which, BTW, is not particularly a big money maker, given the* expenses of doing business in that sector.  E The group I work for provides internet-based data management servicesn< (Application Service Provider) for a vertical market that isE traditionally Information Services challenged.  At several points, we G have been approached by vendors who want to take over our IS functions, B most often porting them to another platform.  Which would leave us doing... what?  Q > manufacturing plants is included here.  Only the workers who disigned the stuff G > (9 times out of 10) really understand how it works and how to fix it.l  G Non computer example: Recently, Harley Davidson had to hire consultantsSC in to work out the oil flow of their own engines, to help them in abF major redesign, as the last person who understood it retired *decades*F ago, and the knowledge was lost.  Another similarity to IT is that theG on-staff "engineers" that worked there were promoted from within, i.e.,xG former assembly workers that had little or no formal training in engines? design, and so could not work out the problem themselves (soundn familiar, anyone?).u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:38:32 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: sadness+ Message-ID: <3B340F38.969EDCD1@bigfoot.com>r   Dean Woodward wrote: > >  Another similarity to IT is that the on-staff "engineers" that worked > there were promoted from within, i.e., former assembly workers that had > little or no formal training in engine design, and so could not work > out the problem themselves (sound familiar, anyone?).o  H Yes. DIGITAL.  Where if you started as a security guard, you too one day9 could become a systems manager (if not upper management).    HM   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 21:43:23 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)1 Subject: Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMSt, Message-ID: <9h0e5r$5rf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  Z In article <tj6q95mpka1c0d@corp.supernews.com>, "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> writes:L >Is there a package like Adobe Acrobat that runs on OVMS Alpha to create PDF >files from text files?.  B If by text files you really mean postscript files then you can use= ghostscript to convert postscript files to pdf.  If we still  L had CONVERT then you could go text->ps,ps->pdf and you'd be done.  Since we I don't anymore you'll have to hunt around for that sort of converter.  If dK you have DCPS that should be able to handle it, just stop up the queue and o> print TEXT files, then postscript should pile up in the queue.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:42:01 GMTy/ From: "Bob Campbell" <robertwcampbell@home.com>s Subject: Submitting Batch Jobs< Message-ID: <ZlTY6.98971$L4.11615899@news1.rdc1.az.home.com>  H I looking for the DCL code that would pick up the current version of theF command file if the command file had already been submitted to batch & pending.  H I can't remember if it use the lexical f$environment or another lexical.  , Has anyone used this and for the syntax was?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:44:46 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs, Message-ID: <3B3410AB.5ED1ED7C@videotron.ca>   Bob Campbell wrote:e > J > I looking for the DCL code that would pick up the current version of theH > command file if the command file had already been submitted to batch &
 > pending.  N the lexical you want is F$PARSE  (help lex F$PARSE). You may alxo want to lookB at F$SEARCH, it will give you the most recent version of the file.  K To look though the queues, you need to use the F$GETQUI to get to each job, B and another call for an individual job to get the file information   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:56:06 -0000b+ From: Guy Sherr <guy.sherr-nospam@mail.com>t" Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs< Message-ID: <Xns90C9983B298Aguysherrmailcom@207.126.101.100>  3 "Bob Campbell" <robertwcampbell@home.com> wrote in s4 news:ZlTY6.98971$L4.11615899@news1.rdc1.az.home.com:  J > I looking for the DCL code that would pick up the current version of theH > command file if the command file had already been submitted to batch &
 > pending. > J > I can't remember if it use the lexical f$environment or another lexical. > . > Has anyone used this and for the syntax was? >  >   J f$environment("procedure") will return the fully qualified filename of theI command procedure executing at the time. Squeezing it into something that)4 points to the most recent version, in a single call:  + f$element(0,";",f$environment("procedure"))0  H It has been a while since I wrote a procedure, but I have written a few.F I just can't be sure of element 0 being the leftmost.  But, to shortenI the explanation, the call to f$element will return everything to the leftuI of the semicolon, taken from the string produced by DCL when it evaluatesa the f$environment call.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:07:49 -0300a) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brc- Subject: The end of Computer Associates ????? L Message-ID: <OFF90740C9.D1703937-ON03256A73.004295D9@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Clickr  ; http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6347455.html?tag=cd_mhi     Regards0   FC   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:56:30 GMTu= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)i1 Subject: Re: The end of Computer Associates ????? 0 Message-ID: <009FDEC4.BF9B6345@SendSpamHere.ORG>  x In article <OFF90740C9.D1703937-ON03256A73.004295D9@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: >d >Click >M< >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6347455.html?tag=cd_mh >  >  >Regards >c >FCy >   ! Page you are viewing has expired.w   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn            oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:26:55 -0400t- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>t1 Subject: Re: The end of Computer Associates ?????h- Message-ID: <3B33D43F.6F86C234@bellsouth.net>r  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  z > In article <OFF90740C9.D1703937-ON03256A73.004295D9@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: > >o > >Click > >a> > >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6347455.html?tag=cd_mh > >l > >o
 > >Regards > >s > >FC  > >l >h# > Page you are viewing has expired.f >V   worked for me...    9             ...One could only hope that it is the end....M   Michael Austin DBA Consultant <not a fan of CA>      >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs >hQ > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:18:22 GMTr, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> Subject: Re: ttr< Message-ID: <ifRY6.77157$tb6.19105660@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  5 In message <01K5025W10LU001QS9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,r& paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:	 > Andrew,' >  > >>nelson wrote:  > >> o > >> ttm > >m > >e. > >It was cancelled this year due to the foot  > >and mouth outbreak. a >  > :-)t > , > Sounds more like a foot and udder disease. >  > Regards, Paddy Now that's udderly ridiculous. -- p4 Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:22:01 +0200 , From: "Harald Thienel" <harald@h-thienel.de>6 Subject: Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7/ Message-ID: <9h02p9$n1v$07$1@news.t-online.com>n  ( Since 20-jun-2001 the problem is solved!  I I have forwarded all your help and hints to our database and VMS - systemoG administrators and discussed with them. The problem is gone away in twotF steps by adjusting memory parameters in VMS and database parameters inF Oracle. First we reached a state where Oracle continued to run withoutI hungups but very slow (5-10 time slower than version 7). Then we got someeL new adjustment from Oracle support which acellerated the DB unbelievable. ItF is now running at the same speed as version 7 or better. No additional patches were installed.f  B I want to say thanks once again to all of you who helped me out!!!   Harald   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:33:27 GMTn! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com>'6 Subject: Re: Urgent: Oracle 8 parallel server on VMS 7& Message-ID: <HcP4OAAVf8M7EwVH@gol.com>  > In article <9h02p9$n1v$07$1@news.t-online.com>, Harald Thienel <harald@h-thienel.de> writes) >Since 20-jun-2001 the problem is solved!) >DJ >I have forwarded all your help and hints to our database and VMS - systemH >administrators and discussed with them. The problem is gone away in twoG >steps by adjusting memory parameters in VMS and database parameters in G >Oracle. First we reached a state where Oracle continued to run withouteJ >hungups but very slow (5-10 time slower than version 7). Then we got someM >new adjustment from Oracle support which acellerated the DB unbelievable. ItoG >is now running at the same speed as version 7 or better. No additionalt >patches were installed. >eC >I want to say thanks once again to all of you who helped me out!!!e >e >Haraldf >e  C It would be interesting to know what was the adjustment from Oraclei   Regardso   --  
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:39:29 +0200n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o) Subject: Re: VMS applications on the web? , Message-ID: <3B339EF1.7EB56E53@infopuls.com>   Michael Austin wrote:c >  > Chris, > W > I wish I had one of those apps.  unfortunately they were done on my clients intranet.iV > Actually I am in the process of trying to obtain a real cheap license for Rdb and/orZ > Oracle to "play with".  I don't have any clients willing at this time to help me pay for > those licenses.  > ( > App Synopsis (clients names withheld): >  > Need:uY > To replace an interactive program that would read through extremely large reports (somer > up to 200Mb).nX > The interactive program basically paged through the file 600 lines at a time.  On thisE > system there were a little over 43,000 reports generated PER MONTH.u >  >  form to wildcard filename > ' >  create dropdown box with files found:7 > select from radio buttons method for viewing the file59 > display the entire txt file in the browser ( <3Mb only).L > page through at 600 lines at a time (going forward was easy cannot back upB >             read 600 lines from file.  get current record offsetP >             on bottom of page use this as the starting point for the next page! >             open file at offset0' >             read 600 lines goto loop)g" > sear the file for <text> /window > ftp the file to your desktopV > all done in DCL then ported for use in a unix environment using PERL.  the only hardX > part was search w/window.  I used ggrep which has that funtionality.  The unix project3 > died and it still runs on OpenVMS using Purveyor.a > 
 > 2nd one. > Q > Create an Electronic requisition form using a web-enabled Rdb database. insertsgY > requested info in the database and gets processed by the purchasing dept.  Once the req"Y > is generated, an email is sent from Rdb to the authorizor where he/she clicks on a linkeV > that will authenticate them, then allow them to review the req with a deny/authorizeW > button at the bottom.  Once it is authorized the purchasing group runs a program that0W > processes the new reqs and prints them on a printer. (gotta generate that paper trail4 > for the auditors)... >  > Michael Austin > DBA Consultant.S  @ Sounds very good. I heard rumors that Rdb will be available like the VMS hobbyist licence.l   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 23:09 CDTp' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)o0 Subject: Re: Where to obtain VMS2IMAP or similar- Message-ID: <22JUN200123093714@gerg.tamu.edu>t  . "Rachael Padman" <rp10001@cam.ac.uk> writes...L }I am looking for a source for a utility which will convert VMS mail to IMAPM }folders. From the web, it appears that there are some custom utilities whichKK }have been used at a few US sites -- does anyone have a source for VMS2IMAPs }or similar? } L }Apologies if this is has been asked a million times already -- I think I'veF }tried the obvious searches, but I've probably missed several sources. }----d }Rachael Padmanp  D Your question doesn't actually make much sense if you mean a utilityC to convert the way mail is stored - there is no specific format fordD storing IMAP mail. An IMAP server presents the mail to the client inI a specific way, but that has nothing to do with how it is stored on disk.d  = What you need is an IMAP server that runs on your VMS system.cC Like, say, the one that comes with Multinet. There is no conversionaC that is done - it just reads/writes the VMS Mail files. The folders1D in the VMS Mail file are the folders it presents to the IMAP client.G It is also possible (at least with the Multinet IMAP server, presumablyRD for others as well) to have a more heirarchal structure with foldersC in folders - the Multinet IMAP server does this using multiple maillI files (which VMS Mail certainly allows for) and things along those lines.f  @ (My only big complaint with the Multinet IMAP server is that theB connections all run in processes that belong to the SYSTEM accountC instead of the account of the user. It shouldn't do that, it should # run each IMAP process as the user.)s  G Some add-on mail software, such as PMDF, may not use the VMS Mail files H but substitute their own storage. They would, assuming they have an IMAPH server, naturally read the mail out of their own files and file formats.. But there would still be no conversion needed.  B On the other hand, if what you have is a Unix (or other OS) systemA that is running IMAP and has acces to the VMS disks then what younA may want is a VMS Mail to Unix (or whatever) mail file converter.iC There are a few of these out there for converting VMS Mail files to A Unix mail files (search for VMS mail to Unix mail, rather than tonD IMAP). If the VMS Mail is actively receiving messages, this would beA a sub-optimal way of doing it since you'd have to convert the newlB messages frequently. You'd be better off running an IMAP server on the VMS system.x   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:14:44 +0200n+ From: "Robert de Boer" <r.e.deboer@kpn.com>o! Subject: Re: X25 and FTAM problemn. Message-ID: <9h09lj$abp$1@info.service.rug.nl>  
 Nice try. ;-)t   Robert de Boer0 "Veli Krkk" <korkko@decus.fi> wrote in message" news:3B31A8BF.93EAD0B2@decus.fi... > Kenneth wrote: > >u8 > > I have try to connect dir the remote node with FTAM: > >c! > > $ dir/app=ftam APP"ID"::"A.A") > > F > > but I got the error message in the console that "Server Connection reject( > > for X25 client node Local:.mysystem" > >o0 > > I have do all all the configuration for the, > > - isoapplications.dath' > > - create the osi transport templatei$ > > - create the x25 access template! > > - create the x25 access classo > >rH > > I have to set up 2 links, and I have make one link up and the others always" > > failed. I just don't know why. > >1F > > How can I check if the X25 link is really working in the router? I rememberK > > I can do the command "set host/x25 NUA ...." but I don't know the exactt > > syntax.o >c6 > this is going to be one painful exercise via news... > = > for FTAM stuff "we" start with info in ISOAPPLICATIONS.DAT.e
 > >From there)< > we have the FTAM alias and then rest of the info giving us >  > - osi transport template > - ssap, psap, tsap, nsap etc.r >t >w6 > Assuming those *sap stuff is correct, I'd start with > checking the osi transport> > template for intended connection. Since you X.25, it must of > CONS type and,= > we find from OSI transport template the X25 ACCESS TEMPLATEs > name, typicallyi > with same name.h >r; > X25 ACCESS TEMPLATE then tells us amongs other things X25e > ACCESS DTE CLASS and  > something called NSAP mapping. > 9 > I suspect that relevant X25 ACCESS DTE CLASS is of TYPEr > REMOTE and specifies> > a X25 connector node. I would check that specified node, say > LOCAL:.X25GWYi> > is correctly registered in LOCAL (or whatever you are using) > namespace, e.q.n >l9 > $ mcr decnet_register show node local:.x25gwy directoryt > local full >o> > There was problem with GAP protocol going over OSI transport > on some versions; > so depending on versions I'd make sure this LOCAL:.X25GWYo > has only NSP tower
 > defined. >n2 > Check connectivity to the X25 gateway node, e.q. >s& > $ mc ncl show node LOCAL:.X25GWY all >,= > Also check your security. And if you are actually trying tot > do FTAM test< > op from system A via X25 back to A, you will ofcourse need > X25 ACCESS FILTERr > also.d >t > _veli  >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:13:07 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change, Message-ID: <3B3398C1.2BBEA169@videotron.ca>   Wayne Sewell wrote:>J > than SUVs.  These have apparently been carefully designed to reflect theG > headlights of a car coming up behind into the eyes of the driver verynI > precisely.  There is virtually no loss of intensity, so it is basicallylP > equivalent to sticking your face into one of your headlights from a foot away.  L Another pet peete are those yuppy cars with the ultraviolet extremely brightM headlights. They may give you a few more centimetres of visibility on the onesM day of the year where you encouter fog, but you are blinding everyone in your-F path every night, making sure that oncoming traffic wont see your turnL signals, and god only know what sort of damage you are causing to pedestrianG and cyclist's eyes whose pupils are already dilated because of the darke+ conditions with a sudden flash of UV light.>  , Government should ban those UV yuppy lights.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:21:46 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brh  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate changeL Message-ID: <OFB8707FC9.1CB2F9CE-ON03256A73.00493D79@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  6 Unimog is a germany version of Tatra trucks  I belive.   www.unimogusa.com    www.tatra.cz   Regardsv   FC        6 Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> em 21/06/2001 19:18:00      )       fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brs        Assunto: Re: [OT] Climate change    * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: >,< > Well, I couldnt imagine the insurance values for Hummers !, > They are fabulous but extremly expensive !: > If I had a good, good, good salary (Compaq USA Employee)< > I could imagine myself buying one - the problem is when we@ > import cars here in Brazil the prices come in double  in US$ .  7 So buy a Unimog; it's what a Hummer wants to be when itm5 grows up, anyway; and they're cheaper (used ones; new ; ones start at the same place as Hummers) and more reliable!l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:17:14 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>   Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change( Message-ID: <9h0fv8$2jv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  , <LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com> wrote in message2 news:su07jtkdjm3njkqp9qqpc5rg5es1fj5g0t@4ax.com...G > On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:43:12 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Roberth > Deininger) wrote:t > J > >Actually, much of what "Ralf" wrote about the Corvair to get his careerG > >started turned out to be bogus.  Later research showed the car to bea aboutt@ > >as safe as others of its day.  Just being a do-gooder doesn't. > >automatically make one honest, or accurate. >o > Some of it wasn't fiction. >j6 > Convairs originally came w/ a rear swing-axle design5 > (same as early 60's VW).   Go around  corner  fast,a7 > and the outside edge of the rear rims could drop downy > and under ...l  L Of course, the fact that the design was changed to double U-joints in 1964 -8 years before Ralfie's book - didn't slow him down a bit.  J Even though I'm generally pretty 'green', I've never had that much respectG for Ralfie's apparent preference for notoriety over accuracy.  But thentI again I was an extremely happy Corvair owner before his book did them in.&   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 01 16:44:54 MDT" From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change% Message-ID: <57WurxEqCWv5@cc.usu.edu>l  Z In article <su07jtkdjm3njkqp9qqpc5rg5es1fj5g0t@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes:6 > Convairs originally came w/ a rear swing-axle design5 > (same as early 60's VW).   Go around  corner  fast,n7 > and the outside edge of the rear rims could drop downr > and under ...v  ' You misspelled "(same as mid-30's VW)".l --  N -------------------------+----------------------------------------------------3 Roger Ivie               | Ben Stein for president!  ivie@cc.usu.edu          | http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ | -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Version: 3.18 GP dpu s:+++ a C++ UB- P--- L- E--- W- N++ o-- K-- w--- > O M+ V+++ PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++ 5++ X-- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D-  G-- e++ h--- r+++ y+++   ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------O   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:07:36 GMTc From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..coma  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change8 Message-ID: <7pj7jtgg0iqf5i7anit4fggli0ajj15p5f@4ax.com>  > On 22 Jun 01 16:44:54 MDT, ivie@cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) wrote:  [ >In article <su07jtkdjm3njkqp9qqpc5rg5es1fj5g0t@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes:n7 >> Convairs originally came w/ a rear swing-axle designA6 >> (same as early 60's VW).   Go around  corner  fast,8 >> and the outside edge of the rear rims could drop down >> and under ... >-( >You misspelled "(same as mid-30's VW)".  8 True enough.  the 1930's VW's probably had them as well.  0 I think 1966 was the last year for swing-axles,  for the bugs anyway..O   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2001 19:23:42 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)-2 Subject: Re: [OT] Current Microsoft v DOJ status ?, Message-ID: <9h05vu$249r$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <hh11gNiPL4MD@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:b |> In article <9gt3m7$lcd$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:1 |> > In article <3B3108D6.7DD839E1@videotron.ca>,.5 |> >  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:e |> > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:Q |> > |> > Re-read what I wrote above.  It is a deliberate decision on the part ofg< |> > |> > most other countries to not export their culture.  |> > |> P |> > |> In all fairness to the rest of the world, it is a LOT harder for foreignS |> > |> culture to penetrate the USA market than for USA culture to penetrate otherT |> > |> markets.   |> >  I |> > Why??  Things like the INTERNET have pretty much leveled the playing J |> > field, unless you are only interested in how much profit you can make |> > from exporting culture. |> nC |> Nope, the Internet is overwhelmingly in English, American style.o  A That's because the Internet is overwhelmingly in America.  If youa@ go to sites in countries other than America the sites tend to beA in the language of that country.  Some with English translations.h@ My point was that while in the past broadcasting your culture toA foreign countries took lots of money and power (as in electrical,y< not force).  Today, all it takes is a Real Audio stream madeA available on the Internet.  Even I can afford that.  If countriesE@ used this medium to export their culture, it would go a long wayA for a fraction of the previous cost.  Sadly, most I see prefer to,C offer the image that they are just like America and have no culturel
 of their own.R   bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:48:04 GMT 3 From: Dave Harrold <DRHarrold.nospam@earthlink.net>hC Subject: Re: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?o8 Message-ID: <ij47jt4m7f01maqgtnb02st03da0hbuka5@4ax.com>  1 On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:27:39 +0100, Martin Walkere  <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk> wrote:  I >Maybe "ECP Collector and ECP Analyzer for VMS is free." but when I go toaD >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/performance-and-capacity.htmlJ >it says "Try again later, a new kit is forth coming. " (and has been that >way for weeks (months?))a6 >What use is something that's free if I can't have it?  E It wasn't much use before either.  It collects great data, but it wascE corrupting the path information for multipath devices.  I have a betae? test of the new kit, but am a little uneasy about putting on myhE production cluster, which is the only place I have multipath devices.    Dave Harrold      V ======================================================================================V Dave Harrold                                          E-Mail: David_Harrold@Aurora.orgL Sr. Software Systems Engineer                         Phone : (414) 647-6204L Aurora Health Care                                    FAX   : (414) 647-4999I 3031 W. Montana Street                                Milwaukee, WI 53234e  X "A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to/ underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.345 ************************