1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 25 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 349       Contents:: Re: 26 June OpenVMS DiamondForum postponed - San Jose, CA. Re: Any people use KEA! 420 ?  API web page: what's wrong ?E BY PRIVATE INVITATION ONLY: CONFIDENTIAL: R.S.V.P. TO CONFIRM RECEIPT  Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation Re: FORTRAN question Future support of VAX-VMS + Re: Gap in this forum between March and May ! Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture 0 Manuf. Production/Contrl Software For $1,495.00.2 PCSI SOFTWARE function does test product existence Question to Charlie Matco.K Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy  VMS J Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVM Re: Sadness  Re: Sadness  Re: Sadness  stopping autoboot on 433au Re: stopping autoboot on 433au Re: stopping autoboot on 433au Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: Your opinion (UNIX,VMS)  Re: Your opinion (UNIX,VMS)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:15 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>C Subject: Re: 26 June OpenVMS DiamondForum postponed - San Jose, CA. D Message-ID: <L%vZ6.3603$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message 6 news:WsvY6.3046$wU6.3388861@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...L > It most definitely will not be six months of Musical Chairs. But there are a D > lot of senior management meetings, etc, going on and I wouldn't be	 surprised , > if Rich will be involved in some of these.  G Right, DEC never understood how to manage things in the Compaq way; DEC 8 started the music playing before pulling out the chairs.  J Compaq simply yanks the chairs along with whoever is sitting in the chair.  E Of course, Compaq is no different than any other company.  Intel, for L example, has a reputation for valuing employees as much for the motivationalL benefit of firing someone from each group each year, and Intel is considered! on of the best managed companies.   L The new economy requires that when one part of a company is in trouble, theyL make sure that all parts of the company feel the pain.  Even when everythingL says that a new product that is still a year away from market is going to beD critical for future profits only if it comes in on time, it is still; necessary to yank some chairs out of that product's circle.   K What's even better is to make it clear that some part of the group is going J to disappear soon which will increase the load on each person, then changeJ the policy on vacation time so that you have to use or lose your vacation,K and then offer to buy it for 75 cents on the dollar, plus declare the first ) week of July a mandatory company holiday.   J Hey, that product is a year away and we need to fake a profit now.  How doJ we turn $500 million operating expense into a non-recurring loss?  Simple,H layoff the most expensive assets which instantly removes their salaries,H benefits, office space, computers, etc. from the operating budget.  In aD year, we'll just make some more presentations on our great follow onJ products and because of our name, Wall Street will love us, the stock willL go up, and our customers will buy from us because were so successful on Wall Street.   J Besides, in a year, just hire some new people with lower salaries.  If youG can train someone who doesn't speak english to take orders for and make H hamburgers, then there should be no problem taking college graduates whoH don't speak english and add them to a chip design team, and they will beL cheaper, have no vacation time to take, and be highly motivated because they don't want to leave the USA.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:29:21 GMT - From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com> & Subject: Re: Any people use KEA! 420 ?( Message-ID: <3B3669BF.D2818667@home.com>   > "Valdemir J. Santos" wrote:  >  > Hello all guys:  > J > Id like to know if is there any person in this group using KEA! 420 for
 > OpenVMS. > L > Id like learn how to create little macros to automatically connect in the	 > system,  > % > open and read data in files, etc...  >  > macro examples are welcome...   J 	I have used KEA! for many years and think it's great.  I have made macrosM but usually by letting it record them for me and then tweaking them later for  subtle differences.  L 	There is a "Tools -> Macro -> Record" function that will record every thingF you do until you stop the recording.  It does it pretty well too as itI programs in such things as "wait for ..." steps, etc.  After you are done  recording, you canL then go into the macro editor and tweak things.  The macro language they use is a  M bit clumsy and not too well documented, but I have managed to work through it  and  never read any manuals... :)   Rick   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:28:34 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: API web page: what's wrong ? , Message-ID: <3B36CBF8.DB774BDA@videotron.ca>   What is wrong with the page:  > http://www.alpha-processor.com/products/21264a-processor.shtml  6 (look for the section on operating systems supported).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:28:08 +0001  From: Alex@GrandEnigma.com.hk N Subject: BY PRIVATE INVITATION ONLY: CONFIDENTIAL: R.S.V.P. TO CONFIRM RECEIPT* Message-ID: <200106251326406.SM01436@html>   <html>
 <HEAD></HEAD> F <BODY bgcolor=3D"#E8FFFE" link=3D"#9900FF" alink=3D"#FF6600"><p><b><i=F ><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#800000"><u>THIS EMAIL HAS =F NO ATTACHMENTS OR VIRUSES!</u> <u> SCANNED WITH STATE-OF-THE-ART VIRU=$ S SOFTWARE!&nbsp;</u></font></i></b>F <b> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FF0000"><br> Please rep=F ly to this email and type</font> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" colo=F r=3D"#0000FF"> RSVP</font> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#=F FF0000"> in the Subject Line to confirm you have received it. Thanks.= .</font></b><br><br>F <img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://www.grand-enigma.com/Lights2.gif" alt=F =3D"THE ULTIMATE DIGITAL TREASURE HUNT" width=3D"357" height=3D"12"><= br> F <b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FF00FF"><u><br>Dear Web-=A Surfer,</u></font></b><br><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><br> F My name is Alexander Chamberlain, and I will be your Personal Interne=F t Assistant for this exciting Web-Announcement: <font color=3D"#CC000=F 0">The single, most spectacular Treasure Hunt in recorded History is =F now</font> <i><font color=3D"#FF0000"> <u> LIVE</u></font></i> <font =F color=3D"#CC0000"> on the Internet:&nbsp;</font><br><a href=3D"http:/=F /www.Grand-Enigma.Com"> <font color=3D"#FF0000"> THE JOURNEY BEGINS H=F ERE:</font></a> <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com"> http://www.G=F rand-Enigma.Com</a></b></font></p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=F <b>This is not an exaggeration or a marketing trick..It's the Absolut=F e Truth!! With over 500 web-pages and nearly 3 years of work in the P=F roduction, the Grand-Enigma Internet Treasure Hunt is a full multi-me=F dia, graphics' extravaganza, designed to dazzle your senses, and supe=% r-charge your imagination!!&nbsp;<br> F <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com"><font color=3D"#FF0000">TREAS=F URE HUNT TOURNAMENT ONE:</font></a> <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigm=C a.Com">http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com</a></b></font></p><p><font face= F =3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b>And guess what? There are NO distracting, an=F noying adverts anywhere in the entire Site. <u><font color=3D"#9900FF=F "> This is pure, delicious, mouth-watering Web-Entertainment, and yes=E ....</font><font color=3D"#FF0000">it's very intense!!</font></u> We= F  have successfully and accurately redefined the term <font color=3D"#=F ff0100"><font color=3D"#e27600">&quot;</font><font color=3D"#91d200">=F E</font><font color=3D"#1ffd00">y</font><font color=3D"#5aef00">e </f=F ont><font color=3D"#f83d00">Ca</font><font color=3D"#bfa900">n</font>=F <font color=3D"#5bee00">d</font><font color=3D"#1efd00">y</font><font=F  color=3D"#90d200">&quot;</font><font color=3D"#e17700">!</font>!</fo=F nt> Just take your time and browse the pages until you find your way =F through to the <font color=3D"#FF00FF"> Secret Treasure Hunt Website:= </font> <a href=3D"http://www.F and-Enigma.Com"> <font color=3D"#FF0000"> THE GRAND INTERNET SPECTACU=F LAR:</font></a> <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com">http://www.Gr=F and-Enigma.Com</a></b></font><br><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" colo=F r=3D"#993399"><b><br>If you are at work right now, just forward this == mail to your private email and check it out later. (Please=20 F accept our apologies if this has disturbed you)</b></font></p><p><fon=F t face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b>During this surreal journey, the pages=F  will dazzle and overwhelm you with colour, sound and special effects=E ...AND WHAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THIS??...The Total Treasure we are o= F ffering this year 2001 is a cool One Million US Dollars. These Web-Hu=F nts are regular events, and this First One is a warm up with a Total =F of US$50,000 to be found, plus we always donate to Charity!! It's not=F  just about finding the Treasure only, it's also about enjoying yours=F elf and having a rewarding web-experience on the way through...<br><a=F  href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com"><font color=3D"#FF0000">THE JOU= RNEY BEGINS HERE:</font></a>F <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com"> http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com<=F /a></b></font></p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b>There are a f=F ew "copycats" out there, already trying to imitate what we are doing,=F  but we are THE FIRST, and the ORIGINAL!! That's why it has taken nea=F rly 3 years to prepare the Website to excite and inspire you. We have=F  even re-built every Page several times, especially to suit all taste=F s. You can choose to view with or without animation; with or without =F music and sound effects; with or without Java Applets; there's even a=F  text only Version (in colour of course), it's your choice, depending=F  on the speed of your Computer and Internet Connection. To understand=F  all this, you must take a long look. <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Eni=F gma.Com"><font color=3D"#FF0000">CHOOSE YOUR VERSION HERE:</font></a>=F  <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com"> http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com=E </a></b></font></p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><font color= F =3D"#9900FF">**</font><font color=3D"#0000FF"></font><font color=3D"#=
 FF6600"> IF you wish to be kept 'up-to-date' with our Tournament Web-Hunt Activit=F es, or receive further details about this First Treasure Web-Hunt or =B Future Treasure Web-Hunts, please just click here:</font> <a href=D =3D"mailto:Information@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DFURTHER-DETAILS">= =20 F Information@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DFURTHER-DETAILS</a>   <font co=F lor=3D"#9900FF"> **</font></b></font></p><p><b><u><font face=3D"Arial=F " size=3D"2" color=3D"#00CC00">NB: This email has been sent twice. On=F ce as plain text and once in html format.</font></u></b><br><br><font=F  face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><font color=3D"#FF0000">**</font><font =F color=3D"#FF00FF"> If you don't like plain text emails and prefer col=F our with graphics please click here to receive 'visually friendly' up=E dates:</font> <a href=3D"mailto:Information@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject= F =3DCOLOUR">Information@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DCOLOUR</a>   <font = color=3D"#FF0000"> **</font>F </b></font></p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><font color=3D"#=F 0000FF">+++</font><font color=3D"#CC0000"> Regarding your Web-Privacy=F  and Personal Comments or to REMOVE your email address from any futur=F e mailings, please read below the lines of our Company Contact Data a= t the=20F bottom of this Web-Announcement. LOOK FOR THE 3 CROSSES </font><font =D color=3D"#0000FF"> +++</font>&nbsp;</b></font></p><p><b> <font face=D =3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> Hope you enjoy the Tournament Web-Hunt...<br>< <font color=3D"#FF00FF">Kindest regards and best wishes,<br>F Yours very truly,</font><br><a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.com"><=F img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://www.grand-enigma.com/treasure%20hunter=E gif" alt=3D"AN ASTOUNDING WEB SITE" width=3D"127" height=3D"99"></a>= = <br><font color=3D"#FF00FF">Alex (Alexander Chamberlain),<br> E [Marketing Director]</font></font></b><b><font face=3D"Verdana" size= ' =3D"1"><font color=3D"#fe0900"><br><br> F </font></font><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#000080"= > F Private Email:</font> <a href=3D"mailto:Administrator@Grand-Enigma.co=F m?Subject=3DCONTACT-ALEX">Administrator@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DCO=F NTACT-ALEX<br></a><font color=3D"#CC0000">Cerebe Design International=  Ltd.</font>F <a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com">http://www.Grand-Enigma.Com<b=F r></a><font color=3D"#000080">United Kingdom: Tel: (44) [0] 870 737 9=F 000 Ext: 4520 or 4521<br>United Kingdom: Paper Fax: (44) [0] 870 737 =F 9000 Ext: 4522<br></font><font color=3D"#800080">Germany: Tel: (49) 1= 80 300 0507 Ext: 0043 or 0044 > <br>Germany: Paper Fax: (49) 180 300 0507 Ext: 0045<br></font>7 <font color=3D"#800000">Hong Kong: Tel: (852) 2146 9777 9 <br>Hong Kong: Paper/Computer Fax: (852) 2146 9000</font> F <br>General Mail: GPO Box 10619, Hong Kong.<br></font></b><br><img bo=F rder=3D"0" src=3D"http://www.grand-enigma.com/Lights2.gif" alt=3D"THE=F  ULTIMATE DIGITAL TREASURE HUNT" width=3D"357" height=3D"12"><font fa= ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><br> F <font color=3D"#FF0000"><br></font> </b></font><b><font face=3D"Arial=F " size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#008000">If don't like what you see in ou=F r Treasure Web-Hunt Site, please click here and tell us:</font> <a hr=F ef=3D"mailto:Support@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DWEBSITE">Support@Gran=B d-Enigma.com?Subject=3DWEBSITE</a></font></b></p><p><b><font face=F =3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#800000">If you feel this email =E is an invasion of your privacy, please click here:<br></font><a href= F =3D"mailto:Abuse@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DPRIVACY">Abuse@Grand-Enig=F ma.com?Subject=3DPRIVACY</a></font></b></p><p><b><font face=3D"Arial"=F  size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#000080">If you wish to just downright com=D plain about receiving this email, please click here:</font> <a href=F =3D"mailto:Abuse@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DCOMPLAINT"> Abuse@Grand-E=F nigma.com?Subject=3DCOMPLAINT</a></font></b></p><p><b><font face=3D"A=F rial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#0000FF">+++</font><font color=3D"#CC=
 0000"> If you F choose, you can now take your address off our Mailing List by clickin=B g here: </font> <a href=3D"mailto:Remove@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=; =3DREMOVE">Remove@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DREMOVE</a> =20 F <font color=3D"#CC0000">.. OR you can just reply to this email direct=F ly and type the word </font><font color=3D"#000080"> REMOVE</font><fo=F nt color=3D"#CC0000"> in the</font><font color=3D"#000080"> SUBJECT L=F INE</font><font color=3D"#CC0000">. We will never send you any emails=F  again, nor any details of future Treasure Hunts or progress reports =F on this First Web-Hunt. </font><font color=3D"#0000FF"> +++<br></font= ></font></b>F <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b><font color=3D"#0000FF"><br> +++</=F font><font color=3D"#CC0000"> Your email address IS on a Commercial M=F ailing List for people who enjoy surfing the Internet. We purchase th=1 ese Opt-In Lists.... As a Special Service to you,eF if you want your email address </font> <font color=3D"#000080"> REMOV=F ED</font><font color=3D"#CC0000"> from any Opt-In Lists, you can also=F  Click here:</font> <a href=3D"mailto:Listmaster@Grand-Enigma.com?Sub=F ject=3DMASTER-LIST-DELETE"> Listmaster@Grand-Enigma.com?Subject=3DMAS=+ TER-LIST-DELETE</a><font color=3D"#CC0000"> F and we will forward your email Automatically to the Companies Selling=F  the Lists and ENSURE that your name is deleted from the Master Lists=  currently on CD ROMs.F </font><font color=3D"#0000FF"> +++</font></b></font></p><p><b><font =F face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FF0000"> EVERY REMOVE REQUEST WIL= L BE HONOURED. THIS IS A@ PROMISE!!! </font></b></p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><b>F <u><a href=3D"http://www.Grand-Enigma.com"><font color=3D"#800000">CO=F PYRIGHT 2001 CEREBE DESIGN INTERNATIONAL LIMITED. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED=E </font></a></u></b></font><p><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://www.gra=PF nd-enigma.com/Lights2.gif" alt=3D"THE ULTIMATE DIGITAL TREASURE HUNT"=  width=3D"357" height=3D"12">t </BODY></HTML>   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:38:12 GMTo. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsc@ Message-ID: <UezZ6.44$AV6.7650@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messageh4 news:11gU6.1591$Tc.303560@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...K > The only real long-term threat I see from Dell is their potential abilityi toJ > commoditize beyond 4P Wintel boxes. CPQ still has decent differentiation ande. > value-add in the 8P space but that may fade.  K That's a minor problem.  Imagine when Dell turns the iPaq into a commodity.n  L Microsoft doesn't care if Compaq, HP, et al, lose money over all because theK margin on handhelds are forced too low, it just makes them more competitive-I with Palm compatibles and Microsoft gets higher revenue and higher marketl share.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:33:38 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>$1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?r, Message-ID: <3B363280.7627FB9D@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:O > > marketed?), Intel could easily "save face" by just letting Alpha technologyxA > > slowly sink into the history books with the "Avro Arrow" etc.e > 0 > Or by letting IA-64 sink if it cannot keep up.  K Since Alpha is already behind the  8086, I don't think that Intel will haveoN any problems making sure its IA64 gets the mention "fastest chip in the world"" and being able to honestly say it.  L As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Compaq conveniently acceptedK the delays in Alpha and didn't push the engineers to deliver faster becauser. that gave Intel more time to get its IA64 out.  J Alpha's delays now mean that it  is now in a mode where it has to catch up- with the others, instead of being the leader.   N Until proven otherwise, I still consider Compaq to essentially be a subsidiaryM of Microsoft and Intel (I guess the term would be joint venture). Capellas isaD only there for appearance. Gates and grove really control the shots.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:41:23 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?e, Message-ID: <3B363451.680EA6AE@videotron.ca>   Dirk Munk wrote:H > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. ItH > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generateC > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget thaty6 > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. .  N A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 millionL bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going toC come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year.o  K Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster than 2 the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64).  @ And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as aN Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the way0 of its three-some relationship with its masters.  J And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seal  Compaq's faith as an NT company.  L In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM wereL to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Intel0 buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:49:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?A, Message-ID: <3B363642.C28EFEF9@videotron.ca>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:K >    If Compaq doesn't commit on day 1 of the announcement of any IA64 portiJ > that absolutely everything that runs on Alpha today will be ported ( andG > in a timely fashion ) then I think many of us will have lots to worry  > about.  M Compaq will/would loose any grounds it worked hard to gain with VMS customers H the minute it announces it has given up on Alpha. VMS customers will not# beleive anything Compaq tells them.d  H Compaq says 180 days of transformation.  But guess what, even if all VMSM customers decide on Monday to migrate to Sun, the migration will still take aoM long time to happen. You can't migrate your systems overnight. So Compaq willuK continue to get support revenus from the remaining VMS sides. And if CompaqcH starts to grow it service business through acquisitions, the loss of VMS; revenus will be offset by the big gains in service revenus.   M For Intel, spending 500 million to ensure that its IA64 has no competion (and-H more importantly, will make IA64 look good since there won't be a betterG designed chip around) is a good deal. And for Compaq, spending the $500'K million it woul get from Intel on buying PC service/software companies willhN also be a very good deal since it will instantly replace revenus that will dryD up over the next couple of years from the former VMS/Tru64 business.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:26:14 +0200a) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>A1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?T, Message-ID: <3B364CE6.14193DE2@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:E >  > Dirk Munk wrote:J > > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. ItJ > > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generateE > > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget thatn8 > > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. . > P > A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 millionN > bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going toE > come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year.s > M > Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster thant4 > the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64). > B > And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as aP > Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the way2 > of its three-some relationship with its masters. > L > And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seal" > Compaq's faith as an NT company. > N > In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM wereN > to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Intel2 > buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can.  = Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. No > useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and( visionless company - the least VMS need.  + Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2?i   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 01 14:42:35 MDT" From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?G% Message-ID: <2fsUUSa7vrLn@cc.usu.edu>   b In article <tIjZ6.61$yy2.49786@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:J > While it is true that Intel has abandoned their own projects in the pastL > (anybody remember the iAPX-432 cancelled in 1983?) I'm not sure they wouldL > cancel IA-64. Since IA-64 has been over-hyped and Alpha under-hyped (underM > marketed?), Intel could easily "save face" by just letting Alpha technology ? > slowly sink into the history books with the "Avro Arrow" etc.0  C Remember i960 and I2O? Both seem to have disappeared, yet StrongARM 	 lives on./ -- <N -------------------------+----------------------------------------------------3 Roger Ivie               | Ben Stein for president!f ivie@cc.usu.edu          | http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ | -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----= Version: 3.18 GP dpu s:+++ a C++ UB- P--- L- E--- W- N++ o-- K-- w--- > O M+ V+++ PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP+ t++ 5++ X-- R tv++ b+++ DI+++ D-  G-- e++ h--- r+++ y+++   ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:05:01 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>t1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?39 Message-ID: <TxsZ6.1496$yy2.450237@news20.bellglobal.com>=  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B363280.7627FB9D@videotron.ca... >aH > Since Alpha is already behind the  8086, I don't think that Intel will haveI > any problems making sure its IA64 gets the mention "fastest chip in ther world"$ > and being able to honestly say it. > E > As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Compaq convenientlyo acceptedE > the delays in Alpha and didn't push the engineers to deliver faster2 becausen0 > that gave Intel more time to get its IA64 out. >oL > Alpha's delays now mean that it  is now in a mode where it has to catch up/ > with the others, instead of being the leader.f >nE > Until proven otherwise, I still consider Compaq to essentially be ar
 subsidiaryL > of Microsoft and Intel (I guess the term would be joint venture). Capellas isF > only there for appearance. Gates and grove really control the shots.  K You are probably right. Let's not forget that Compaq got started by reverserH engineering the IBM PC. There's probably a core group within Compaq thatL hates all things not Wintel. (and would love to sabotage recent acquisitions from Tandem and Digital)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,> Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 18:16:05 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?e< Message-ID: <howard-688D58.18160524062001@enews.newsguy.com>  , In article <pNUIa5X406sE@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>,3  nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:   K >    If Compaq doesn't commit on day 1 of the announcement of any IA64 portlJ > that absolutely everything that runs on Alpha today will be ported ( andH > in a timely fashion ) then I think many of us will have lots to worry  > about.  N If they don't commit, I think that people will stop buying Alpha so fast that , Compaq might as well not produce EV7 at all. -- R Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2001 16:32:04 -0700+ From: djanello@yahoo.com (david a. janello)01 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?t= Message-ID: <91ece470.0106241532.18569274@posting.google.com>s  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3B363642.C28EFEF9@videotron.ca>...s > Malcolm Dunnett wrote:M > >    If Compaq doesn't commit on day 1 of the announcement of any IA64 port L > > that absolutely everything that runs on Alpha today will be ported ( andI > > in a timely fashion ) then I think many of us will have lots to worryi
 > > about. >   A This has nothing to do with Alpha or business strategy, Compaq isa> facing a massive liquidity crisis and needs to sell something,? anything to meet its cash obligations and avoid bankruptcy.  Ofo< course, the liquidity crisis does not appear in the reportedB financials, but any business owner facing deadbeats on daily basis? knows the warning signs. Like Q having its Linux Alpha compileraD support at the University of New Hampshire cut off for non-payment. C Selling off the Alpha team is a sign of desperation, Capellas et alnE are quintessential do-nothing managers and will stick with the statusnD quo until something forces them to change.  Since selling Alpha is a9 big deal, something very, very big is forcing their hand.n  D CPQ stock will rise briefly after the alpha sale, then tank when theF financial accouting gimmicks run out.  The historical precedent is AST: Research or other PC box makers that went into the toilet.  E Yours truly will be buying boatloads of puts after the inital spike. .@ The Capellas 180 day timeframe sounds about right for the optionF expiration. Don't want to waste money on the longer dated options when3 the companies stock might be below $5- before then.o  D Now if Q had anyone with a brain on board, they would sell the AlphaB team to ARM for a % of the company, just like DEC did when it sold ObjectBroker to BEA Systems.   David A. Janello 64 bit communications servers: www.argon-tech.com            O > Compaq will/would loose any grounds it worked hard to gain with VMS customers0J > the minute it announces it has given up on Alpha. VMS customers will not% > beleive anything Compaq tells them.i > J > Compaq says 180 days of transformation.  But guess what, even if all VMSO > customers decide on Monday to migrate to Sun, the migration will still take aCO > long time to happen. You can't migrate your systems overnight. So Compaq will M > continue to get support revenus from the remaining VMS sides. And if Compaq4J > starts to grow it service business through acquisitions, the loss of VMS= > revenus will be offset by the big gains in service revenus.r > O > For Intel, spending 500 million to ensure that its IA64 has no competion (and J > more importantly, will make IA64 look good since there won't be a betterI > designed chip around) is a good deal. And for Compaq, spending the $500dM > million it woul get from Intel on buying PC service/software companies will P > also be a very good deal since it will instantly replace revenus that will dryF > up over the next couple of years from the former VMS/Tru64 business.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:05:28 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>k1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?o, Message-ID: <3B368047.A80FABB9@videotron.ca>   Christof Brass wrote:e? > Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. No=@ > useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and* > visionless company - the least VMS need.  J IBM may have ruined OS/2, but under Gerstner, look at what it did to LotusH Notes. While Notes may no longer be the "soupe du jour", in the mid-lateM 1990s, it was the de factor standard for large organisations because IBM used=F its clout to push Notes into existing IBM shops to make Notes gain theJ critical mass needed to have it self-propel itself as the thing to go for.  M IBM has changed a lot. When IBM sets its mind to something, it is not affraid"K to put th enecessary resources into it to make it a success. And IBM is noto affraid of Microsoft.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:08:06 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>R1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?f, Message-ID: <3B3680E6.84299B6A@videotron.ca>   Howard S Shubs wrote:yO > If they don't commit, I think that people will stop buying Alpha so fast that". > Compaq might as well not produce EV7 at all.  K I think that the rumours alone are enough to make customers start to wonderlL about the future of Alpha. Compaq better get their act together REAL FAST onM this one and set the record straight. The last thing the fragile VMS recovery/) needed was another period of uncertainty.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:28 GMTa. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?=D Message-ID: <Y%vZ6.3606$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messageo3 news:Oe0Z6.585$m6.646128@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...aL > Again, EV7 is on track, Marvel systems are on track, and Tru64 and OpenVMS/ > customers have nothing to be concerned about.m  G Yeah, they are on track, but instead of powering train with turbines orwK diesel engines, or even coal fired locomotives, Compaq has avoided the costd# of coal by using people to pull it.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:33 GMT". From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? D Message-ID: <10wZ6.3607$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:SEtTiOBpvJv7@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...G > After all, it appears they already employ some of the Alpha designers H > and it's known that there's a version of Windows 2000 that runs on it.  K Intel employs very few DEC or Alpha designers.  AMD employs a lot more than" Intel does.D  J Consider the way that Intel treated the StrongARM team; they were ignored.& They did the rationale thing and left.  H Lots of the EV6 team left for AMD, many leaving before EV6 was complete.H Why do you think that AMD needed to license the EV6 bus.  If you look atL their proposal for LDT, you see that this is a joint API-AMD development andJ it looks a lot like the I/O port on EV7.  More influence from the DEC chip architects....  L I would be surprised if EV7 didn't take a major hit as people bailed out, if' Intel were to buy the Alpha chip stuff.8   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:37 GMTt. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?lD Message-ID: <50wZ6.3608$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "Terry C Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in message> news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0106222348250.27043-100000@world.std.com...J > It matters not to me what engine is under the hood of my VMSmobile. WhatH > *does* matter is the affordability of the solution. And if one were to  L It does matter to you if all you have are VAX or Alpha binaries and the only+ VMS system you can buy is one running IA64.b  E VMS can't be sold in many markets today because there is at least onewF application, often a seemingly minor one, missing and you don't have a7 solution unless you have all the required applications.n  J DEC had people who understood those kinds of issues because they went thruI them when rolling out VAX/VMS.  Now, nearly all of those people are gone.aK And so are 90% of the people who were doing new development on all the bits  and peices of the system.p  L Here's an interesting point to consider.  There are customers today that areK buying CI adapters and HSJ80s when logic would seem to dictate buying FibresJ Channel.  Guess what, they have applications that only run on VAX, so theyL need to keep VAXen in the cluster and the only way to share the data between@ the VAX and Alpha systems at the I/O rate required is to use CI.  J What are the chances that there will be VAX, Alpha, and IA64 clusters.  InK fact, I doubt that there would even be Alpha and IA64 clusters at all.  The J resources wouldn't be there to port the current cluster port drivers or toG write new ones for Infiniband or something that would work on Alpha, sonG there would be no way to cluster Alpha and IA64 VMS systems except overAK Ethernet.  And at high I/O rates, the performance loss of 1500 byte packetseL processed a byte at a time would make any mixed architecture cluster performL much worse that Alpha alone.  No matter how cheap IA64 was, it wouldn't makeL sense to add IA64 nodes to a cluster if the overall performance was going to go down.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2001 21:23:54 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?l3 Message-ID: <1EVpZH1maSiP@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  u In article <50wZ6.3608$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> writes:i >nN > Here's an interesting point to consider.  There are customers today that areM > buying CI adapters and HSJ80s when logic would seem to dictate buying FibrepL > Channel.  Guess what, they have applications that only run on VAX, so theyN > need to keep VAXen in the cluster and the only way to share the data betweenB > the VAX and Alpha systems at the I/O rate required is to use CI. >oL > What are the chances that there will be VAX, Alpha, and IA64 clusters.  InM > fact, I doubt that there would even be Alpha and IA64 clusters at all.  ThejL > resources wouldn't be there to port the current cluster port drivers or toI > write new ones for Infiniband or something that would work on Alpha, sodI > there would be no way to cluster Alpha and IA64 VMS systems except overaM > Ethernet.  And at high I/O rates, the performance loss of 1500 byte packetskN > processed a byte at a time would make any mixed architecture cluster performN > much worse that Alpha alone.  No matter how cheap IA64 was, it wouldn't makeN > sense to add IA64 nodes to a cluster if the overall performance was going to
 > go down. >   = 	You make it sound that clustering over Ethernet at this timet= 	is a bad thing.  Guess you aren't keeping current.  Take thei; 	time to peel through this, it includes CI, Fast Ethernet, m2 	Gigabit Ethernet, FDDI, ATM , and Memory Channel.  3 http://vmsone.com/dfwdays/Presentations/Boaen_1.PPT   = 	For those that don't care to download the 900+ KB ppt, a few 3 	datapoints of interest...Fast Ehternet has one-wayr; 	lock latency of less than 50 usec and CI measures 150 usechB 	latency.  32-stream throughput, Fast Ethernet does 80000 messagesD 	per second, CI does about 18000 messages per second.  But there is I 	much more in there to prove that Fast Ethernet is a better interconnect lC 	than CI and it also highlights a few problems with Memory Channel.e   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:16:31 +0200a) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>-1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?0, Message-ID: <3B369EFF.33D81FC5@infopuls.com>   Howard S Shubs wrote:: > . > In article <pNUIa5X406sE@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>,5 >  nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:E > M > >    If Compaq doesn't commit on day 1 of the announcement of any IA64 port L > > that absolutely everything that runs on Alpha today will be ported ( andI > > in a timely fashion ) then I think many of us will have lots to worryo
 > > about. > O > If they don't commit, I think that people will stop buying Alpha so fast thato. > Compaq might as well not produce EV7 at all. > -- > Howard S ShubsF > "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"  0 How much value would you give to *that* Company?; From my point of view this Company has proven starting withc? firing Pfeiffer that is has no culture, no clue and no brain. Il: will never trust them and hope that VMS will be sold ASAP.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:18:59 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? + Message-ID: <3B369F93.3FB75B7@infopuls.com>w   JF Mezei wrote:e >  > Howard S Shubs wrote:hQ > > If they don't commit, I think that people will stop buying Alpha so fast that 0 > > Compaq might as well not produce EV7 at all. > M > I think that the rumours alone are enough to make customers start to wondersN > about the future of Alpha. Compaq better get their act together REAL FAST onO > this one and set the record straight. The last thing the fragile VMS recoverym+ > needed was another period of uncertainty.t  8 Do you really trust the people at Compaq? Are there some< decisions of strategic importance lately that show that this> company is acting according to a well thought through plan? Is< there any strategy visible? Are there any products that make> this company unique? Why go to Compaq? Where do you want to go today?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:22:50 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?-, Message-ID: <3B36A07A.D7800D68@infopuls.com>   mulp wrote:d > @ > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message( > news:SEtTiOBpvJv7@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...I > > After all, it appears they already employ some of the Alpha designers J > > and it's known that there's a version of Windows 2000 that runs on it. > M > Intel employs very few DEC or Alpha designers.  AMD employs a lot more thanB
 > Intel does.e > L > Consider the way that Intel treated the StrongARM team; they were ignored.( > They did the rationale thing and left. > J > Lots of the EV6 team left for AMD, many leaving before EV6 was complete.J > Why do you think that AMD needed to license the EV6 bus.  If you look atN > their proposal for LDT, you see that this is a joint API-AMD development andL > it looks a lot like the I/O port on EV7.  More influence from the DEC chip > architects.... > N > I would be surprised if EV7 didn't take a major hit as people bailed out, if) > Intel were to buy the Alpha chip stuff.s  $ This also explains the delay in EV7.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:32:43 +0200e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>s1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?", Message-ID: <3B36A2CB.67FD7096@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:, >  > Christof Brass wrote:oA > > Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. No B > > useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and, > > visionless company - the least VMS need. > L > IBM may have ruined OS/2, but under Gerstner, look at what it did to LotusJ > Notes. While Notes may no longer be the "soupe du jour", in the mid-lateO > 1990s, it was the de factor standard for large organisations because IBM usedeH > its clout to push Notes into existing IBM shops to make Notes gain theL > critical mass needed to have it self-propel itself as the thing to go for.  @ Yes and no. Notes was the best solution and using something else9 wouldn't have made any economical sense. Do you know whath@ happens to Lotus now? A friend of mine is very familiar with the> Notes situation and he told me that Notes is almost completely< integrated into IBM and will disappear very soon as seperate; brand. From what I know the situtation of Notes and VMS are:@ completely different within many respects. The analogy with OS/2. is much more suitable to my current knowledge.  O > IBM has changed a lot. When IBM sets its mind to something, it is not affraidmN > to put the enecessary resources into it to make it a success. And IBM is not > affraid of Microsoft.   : Yes and no. IBM has muscles but in the area of SW they are< simply speaking a loser. I don't see that IBM has changed. I: still see that they excell in HW because of their research; power. They have a strong service organisation but they arep7 still very expensive (too expensive) and they are slow.a  > It would make more sense that AMD buys not only the Alpha team: but also the VMS (I know AMD is a chip producer and Robert= Palmer will try to kill Alpha and VMS again). And AMD has not7 enough money right now.c  ? The basic problem is that it nees joined forces to compete with ? companies like Untel or Micro$hit or IBM because they have thatc> much money that they could force bad solutions into the market@ with sheer PR power. This is a very unhealthy situation from the< technical point of view but also from the customers point of view.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 02:48:01 GMTl. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?bD Message-ID: <BDxZ6.3928$Bp1.499292@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  - "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messagee0 news:1010623234633.38769B-100000@Ives.egh.com...E > If VMS is ported to IA64, I would expect Compaq to do as good a jobeH > of ensuring compatibility as DEC did with the Alpha port.  If they do,  F Why would you expect that?  Are you unaware of the number of engineersJ laidoff in the past 7-8 years, the number of key people that have left, ofI the number of products sold off (to be abandoned/milked), of the nuber ofaD people who left vms related product work to work on Windows or unix.  6 > then no problem.  If they don't then they are toast.   Toast, and very badly burnt.  J I am ramping up on Linux, and will redouble my efforts if Alpha is sold to Intel.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:10:39 GMTe. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?rD Message-ID: <PYxZ6.3962$Bp1.503710@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOECFCNAA.tom@kednos.com...eK > Compaq certainly didn't buy Digital because of Alpha.  It was the servicen > organization thatyH > they wanted.  I suspect that the cost to keep pace with Intel is high. > Never understood2 > why Digital didn't pursue the mips architecture.  K Compaq thought they wanted the service business, but they didn't understand I that adding a $5 billion service business didn't add $5 billion to Compaq G revenues because a very large fraction was business DEC did for Compaq.uJ Furthermore, the margins on the service business weren't as high as CompaqJ wanted.  Also, a large portion was for stuff that Compaq didn't understandJ financially - cases where the revenue per man was zero but this was offsetK by various license costs, or cases where the revenue per man was very high,oL but this was only possible because middleware software was bundled for free.J In the case of the former, the people delivering the service got axed, andG in the case of the latter, the middleware developers got axed, with thenH result being no revenue and no profit at all.  For the bag carriers, theI metrics for people fixing Alphaservers didn't look good compared to those K fixing PCs, so that headcount got cut.  In the case of the PC bag carriers, G Compaq decided to outsource that to Compaq resellers, etc.  Places likelE Radio Shack which didn't have a clue what was going on because no onetE figured out how this was going to work before hand, so customers wereuH pissed, the Radio Shack folk were frustrated, and the overhead at Compaq exceed the revenue.   K As far as the cost of developing Alpha, well, DEC was able to do things foraJ significantly less than Intel, and after Compaq, money was traded for timeJ which is why EV6 and EV7 were and are so late.  Intel still doesn't have a: clear lead even though they have spent 5-10 times as much.  J Why not stick with MIPS?  Well, what benefit does MIPS have?  Yeah, simpleJ designs are availble for embedded designs, but MIPS has too many problems,I just like SPARC, to make it easy to do super scalar out of order designs. J The advantage of MIPS is that there are core designs available and you canI modify those designs for your custom application.  Other than that, it iseK just as handicapped today as it was when PRISM was cancelled - and the chip D that was cancelled would have been delivered with at least twice theK performance of the MIPS chip that replaced it.  In fact, the PRISM chip wasoK capable of running faster than any of the testers available at the time, so06 it might have been good for 3-4 times the performance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:48:20 -0400B  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?l6 Message-ID: <1010624234351.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com>    On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, mulp wrote:   > / > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messager2 > news:1010623234633.38769B-100000@Ives.egh.com...G > > If VMS is ported to IA64, I would expect Compaq to do as good a job J > > of ensuring compatibility as DEC did with the Alpha port.  If they do, > H > Why would you expect that?  Are you unaware of the number of engineersL > laidoff in the past 7-8 years, the number of key people that have left, ofK > the number of products sold off (to be abandoned/milked), of the nuber ofrF > people who left vms related product work to work on Windows or unix.  D Historical precedent.  What evidence do you have that they won't?  IC don't know the numbers of engineers who have left.  Do you?  Why ifuC you think these numbers are relevent don't you post them instead ofe> asking me for them?  I think you are talking through your hat.A Do you have inside information that Alpha is actually going to bea+ sold, or are you just spreading fertilizer?p   > 8 > > then no problem.  If they don't then they are toast. >  > Toast, and very badly burnt. > L > I am ramping up on Linux, and will redouble my efforts if Alpha is sold to > Intel.  A We'll know about that tomorrow.  I am not going to spend the nexto0 12 hours panicking because of an internet rumor.   --   John Santosv Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:54:38 -0400'- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B36B5FB.5590D2AA@videotron.ca>   Christof Brass wrote:r: > Do you really trust the people at Compaq? Are there some> > decisions of strategic importance lately that show that this= > company is acting according to a well thought through plan?     I Compaq has developped a privileged relationship with Microsoft. They were H alone to support MS during antitrust trial. And they succeeded in makingN PocketPc a success where others had previously failed, giving Compaq a certainI amount of time of exclusive licensing for PocektPc for keyboardless PDAs.t  I That relationship is too important for Compaq to jeoperdize it by pushing2 competing products.M  I Microsoft realises that NT isn't quite ready for prime time, so it allowshL Compaq to keep the mission critical stuff on Tandem and what is left of VMS.M And it is to Microsoft's advantage to have Compaq retain these customer until 5 NT is ready otherwise those customers will go to Sun..  M Dell can't bring customers to Microsoft. Only Compaq can deliver the types oftL customers that Microsoft doesn't yet have. MS knows it can't count on IBM toE deliver mission critical customers to NT. But it can count on Compaq.     K Think of it this way: Compaq donates Alpha to Intel. Intel starts to add toaN IA64 what it takes to port NSK and VMS. But in doing so, it also enables NT toM take advantage of those features and also provide fault tolerant features. SopM donating Alpha and Alpha engineers to Intel will allow intel to shape IA64 soyI that NT can also become more fault tolerant and eventually take over from % customers who were on Tandem and VMS.e    M So essentially, Compaq's job is to keep VMS and NSK customers locked in untile5 NT is ready for prime time. That is the way I see it.r  9 It will be a fight between Compaq-Microsoft, IBM and SUN.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:16:34 GMTt. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? > Message-ID: <CWyZ6.4$AV6.298@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:T+bxo$cAl0so@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...H >    Actually their first answer was to develop PRISM ( which would have@ > included porting VMS ). Then they decided they didn't have the time/resourcesI > /talent/whatever to pull that off and scrapped it in favour of the MIPSnH > strategy ( along with a decision that VMS wouldn't get ported there ).  L The situation is more complex, and also simpler.  Cutler, et al, and Supnik,H et al, were designing MICA and PRISM together just like VMS and VAX wereK developed together.  MICA was going to support multiple personalities, justIK like Windows NT supported multiple personalities.  PRISM, in Cutler's view,-J wasn't going to run unix.  Or VMS.  While the VMS engineers questioned theL wisdom of this from the standpoint of VMS customers, the unix engineers wentK ballistic and pushed for native unix, pointing to a quick and dirty port to<J a MIPS system that used the MIPS chip in little endien mode.  KO basically@ was asked to pick one, so under pressure he picked unix on MIPS.  L Obviously, this left VMS out in the cold and pissed Cutler off to no end andL he left.  And of course, Supnik was pissed as well, but he wanted to prove aI point, and he was able to demonstrate the higher performance of the PRISMh# design compared to the MIPS design.h  L One of the fundamental problems was that Cutler and Supnik were of like mindL on one point: the need for a RISC chip, but on different minds on the other:E the target market.  Cutler didn't see a compatibility problem arisingsB because MICA/PRISM was targetted at the super computer and massiveH database/data mining/data warehousing market.  VAX would do fine for theG small servers and desktops until MICA/PRISM had added functionality andII dropped in price resulting in a migration.  But Supnik wanted to kill offrE work in VAX asap.  This meant that some of the assumptions built intok MICA/PRISM weren't realistic.r  H That problem could have been resolved if the unix engineers weren't suchJ idiots.  You see, the unix engineers had told the VMS layered product folkJ that they didn't want layered products ported to unix on VAX.  They didn'tI want the DEC C compiler - the new compiler that was being developed using J GEM to support PRISM, nor the DEC FORTRAN compiler, nor the DEC RTLs whichC would allow lots of applications to run without change, nor the DEC/J development tools.  Why, because that would make Ultrix too "proprietary".H So, now, the told Supnik that they didn't want a DEC CPU chip.  And they) told Cutler, they didn't want him around.d  I VMS, the layered products, the chip folk, the system folk, were basically0I faced with crawling in a hole and dying, or develop a strategy that wouldeH blow all unix competition out of the water.  Three years later, DEC unixJ folk surrendered.  Still, it took years before unix would use any compilerC with GEM in it to build unix.  And still, you have to go outside of J DEC/Compaq to get RTLs and other tools to easy migration from VMS to unix.D All the tools that DEC needed to build for both VMS and unix are allL internal, which is quite different for all the tools need to build for VMS - nearly all are products.  J The compiler folk argued against the lack of byte/word ops, but two of theL MIPS/Alpha architects, who happen to be at Intel these days, argued that theD application developer would gladly modify their code to get the bestH performance - the position taken by the unix world justifying a supposedK superiority of the unix platform.  While unix devos to some degree, and VMStI devos to a large degree, struggled with the problems this lack caused, itsL was only clear that it was a horrid mistake after trying to get Windows codeD to simply work.  Again, this wouldn't have been an issue if Cutler'sC strategy had been followed (for one thing, Windows NT wouldn't haveo
 happened).  J Besides describing the events as I understand them in a someone simplisticH fashion, I also hope that I have illustrated a fundamental difference inE styles.  The DEC style was one of concensus and joint action, focused'F inwardly, but the style of the unix camp was one of independent actionF focused externally without regard to for the impact on the rest of theG company.  The only difference between Microsoft and the traditional DECoK style is that Microsoft attacks any disagreement with a vengence whether ito comes from inside or out.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:20:19 -0400a' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>s1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?V< Message-ID: <howard-991053.23201824062001@enews.newsguy.com>  + In article <3B369F93.3FB75B7@infopuls.com>,h+  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:a  : > Do you really trust the people at Compaq? Are there some> > decisions of strategic importance lately that show that this@ > company is acting according to a well thought through plan? Is> > there any strategy visible? Are there any products that make@ > this company unique? Why go to Compaq? Where do you want to go > today?    "Where do you want to go today?"   Macintosh, of course.-  " But that's another issue entirely.  O I trust the VMS team, I like the VMS support people.  Do I trust corporate not  G to screw them over?  Not a chance.  That's why rumors like this are so p	 damaging.a -- y Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:19 GMTi. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of TransformationhD Message-ID: <P%vZ6.3604$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  ? "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in messageo& news:9gvmr7$l66@gap.cco.caltech.edu...G > Or rather, exactly the sorts of things you'd expect a visionless beanlJ > counter like Capellas to emphasize.  The 180 day spin tells me that thisJ > can hardly be anything else besides another reorg.  Which means that the  K It could be the 180 days that Justice has to review a merger/acquistion forl anti-trust violations.....  J However, its more likely to be worse than you suggest, although it will be spun to be more positive.a  H If Compaq stock goes up significantly so that I can sell what I stupidly own, then I'll be happy.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:24 GMTo. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of TransformationvD Message-ID: <U%vZ6.3605$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B343964.547DFDE7@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t5 > > Any ideas on a suitable replacement for Capellas?  >  > Michael Dell.i  E You're joking, right?  Michael Dell invested in a proprietary storagetL company where the stock was way over priced because of the dot com fad.  ButL he doesn't invest in cloning the iPaq so that he can boast about taking thatJ market away from Compaq.  There is nothing unique about the iPaq that Dell/ can't buy except for the Compaq and iPaq logos.s  J He also took a real long time to return to AMD for chips; if Dell had beenI shipping Athlon systems for the past year, they would been number 1 in PCnJ sales six months earlier and Compaq would be unable to avoid taking a loss1 quarter after having laid off 30% of the company.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:16:30 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformationt, Message-ID: <3B3690E9.CBD181EF@videotron.ca>   mulp wrote:oG > You're joking, right?  Michael Dell invested in a proprietary storageoN > company where the stock was way over priced because of the dot com fad.  ButN > he doesn't invest in cloning the iPaq so that he can boast about taking thatL > market away from Compaq.  There is nothing unique about the iPaq that Dell1 > can't buy except for the Compaq and iPaq logos.a  K Wrong. Microsoft is being nice to Compaq by not giving PocketPC licenses toeI other major players. Remember that WinCE was a real dud of a failure. ButhG Compaq is the one who produced a gizmo that was able to make WinCE very N palatable (PocketPC is a rebadged WinCe) and was able to put Pocket PC back inH the limelight with very respecatble marketshare. In exchange, Compaq got> exlcusive distribtion for that type of device for "some time".  Q Mikey Dell can build the devices, but he couldn't put WinCE/PocketPC in them YET.   L I guess that Compaq did get something in return for being the only majob box2 maker to support Microsoft in the antitrust trial.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:55:59 GMTB+ From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@home.com>l/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation < Message-ID: <jDyZ6.24209$Mf5.6008516@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  7 As a former Digital/Compaq employee, I have got to say,o   "Been there, Done that."  H I had written a big long rant about what is wrong inside Compaq today, ID decided to not post it here, lest I get sued. I have written MichaelI Capellas and others and informed them of the core weaknesses and problemsr/ that must be fixed to make the firm profitable.n  F Suffice it to say that there are large numbers of incompetant managersK working at Compaq, trying to avoid the axe, and retire, they no longer havevB the corporation at heart nor do they even care about the customer.  I I strongly believe that if what I have seen posted (Selling off Alpha and J making Compaq a Solutions compnay) It's been tried before and never workedA and thus the sun is really setting on another chapter in history.   J Michael would be best advised to wind it all up and close the doors, causeH there no longer is anything that can be a key differentiator for Compaq.   rtte   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:45:43 GMTv> From: "Peter L. Montgomery" <Peter-Lawrence.Montgomery@cwi.nl>/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformatione Message-ID: <GFGyK7.IqH@cwi.nl>u  ,      Go to www.compaq.com and search on ev7.> I get eight matches, five with revision dates of 24-June-2001.     H      Glancing at some of these, Compaq says they are committed to Alpha.9 But why did they need to revise so many documents Sunday?q -- u9 The 21st century is starting after 20 centuries complete,iG but we say someone is age 21 after 21 years (plus fetus-hood) complete.dH         Peter-Lawrence.Montgomery@cwi.nl    Home: San Rafael, California"         Microsoft Research and CWI   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:23:29 -0400l- From: Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net>l Subject: Re: FORTRAN questione- Message-ID: <3B363020.C66E5E84@bellsouth.net>a  & Thanks Paddy,  Robert, Carl and Steve.   see comments below:t   Robert Deininger wrote:i  > > In article <3B350FD3.8FA69C07@bellsouth.net>, Michael Austin! > <miaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote:s >dK > > If I use /OLD_F77 I do not get this error and I would like to bring thet" > > syntax up to date if possible. > >d% > >             DO 115,J=NP0+1,NPARTSl > > ...............^E > > %F90-E-ERROR, A branch to a do-term-shared-stmt has occurred fromnM > > outside the range of the corresponding inner-shared-do-construct.   [115]s > > at line number 102 in file > >t > > here is the code section:  > >d > >           K=PART(14) > >           I=PART(15)* > >           IF(K.GT.18.AND.K.LT.22) THEN  > >             IDT0=RECORD(NP0) > >             IREC=0% > >             DO 115,J=NP0+1,NPARTSE' > >             IF(RECORD(J).LT.0) THENs > >               IREC=IREC+1u& > >               REC(IREC)=-RECORD(J) > >             ELSE > >               GOTO 120 > >             END IF > > 115         CONTINUE > >bM > > Is this funtionaly  equivalent  ie. removeal of 115 label and addition ofy
 > > "END DO"?a5 > > =================================================a > >          DO J=NP0+1,NPARTS% > >           IF(RECORD(J).LT.0) THENr > >           IREC=IREC+1O" > >           REC(IREC)=-RECORD(J) > >           ELSE > >           GOTO 120 > >           END IF > >           END DO > > 115         CONTINUE >tJ > I don't think you have shown us enough code to spot the error.  It seemsH > to be complaining about branching INTO a control structure, presumably, > label 115.  Is there a GOTO 115 somewhere? >o  O Bingo!!!  there is a reference elsewhere to label 115 ( read(....,err=115...)), M so what this is doing is that it thinks that the DO 115,.....  is the Jump TOl9 location and not 7 lines later where there is an explicit9 115   CONTINUEK and by removing the DO label (and adding the END DO), it goes to the propero	 location.    >gH > Compile with F77, get a listing with a cross-reference, and see what'sL > happening with that label.  Or just look by eye, though the compiler knows > best in cases like this. >hL > I also think that you should not try to compile this program with F90.  ItF > appears to have quite a few features the new compiler does not like.  N I plan on making the changes necessary to have this compile with no errors andN a few warnings (like a subroutine not explicitly declaring a variable where itM is declared elsewhere.  This is a fairly benign warning. This is necessary asnF someone may need to support this long after I am gone.  (The life of a consultant...)   > K > Since you don't seem to be a Fortran specialist, you are likely to changetG > the meaning of the program unless you spend a lot of time reading thea > Fortran 77 Reference docs. >   N This is an understatement.   I can read most languages with enough proficiencyM to find the problem.  Fixing it is another story.  My support of applicationsiG is generally in conjuction with my role as a DBA (Rdb and Oracle   I am.L currently available if you need one, ..:) primarily OpenVMS but I also speak u**x   )   >cG > Use the F77 compiler, which comes with the F90 compiler.  If for some L > reason it didn't get installed, install it.  It isn't going to go away, so< > there is probably no good reason to translate the program. >o  N Actually I tried it, but the reason is that it needs to be brought up to date.O Another poster mentioned that this looks like it originated on a PDP.  ConsidereO the V1.0 was written in 1984 on a PDP.  The syntax of  this version was updatedtK in 1989-1991 timefame.  The VAX3400 for this app is running VMS 5.1-0 (1991  vintage IIRC).   > J > I _think_ that all _standard_ Fortran 77 can be compiled without changesI > by a F90 compiler.  But DEC Fortran 77 goes beyond the standard in manyeH > ways.  Some of those ways are not compatible with F90.  But DEC/CompaqF > have given you a way to keep the old program.  Use the F77 compiler. >iF > I believe Fortran 95 is NOT upward compatible with Fortran 77.  SomeJ > features were officially removed.  I expect most (all?) compiler vendorsJ > will provide a back-compatiblity mode, or continue to maintain the older > compi="Ar  >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:14:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Future support of VAX-VMS, Message-ID: <3B368264.5ED53B4E@videotron.ca>  K With the rumoured impending death of Alpha and rumoured migration of VMS tocL IA64, this will put quite a but of strain on the Compaq VMS engineers havingJ to port VMS to a platform which was not designed to support VMS. And then,% having to support VMS on 3 platforms.n  M Will Compaq take this opportunity to say that 7.3 will be the last version ofp
 VMS for VAX ?g   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:18:04 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 4 Subject: Re: Gap in this forum between March and May/ Message-ID: <tjd7q87hutdr73@news.supernews.com>   H You'll have to ask whoever runs your news server.  Each news server willD have a different retention policy and different messages.  There areF thousands of news server that carry comp.os.vms and each one will be a little bit different.h  E You news server appears to be news.bluewin.ch.  Try asking someone at  bluewin.ch.g  = "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Compaq.com> wrote in messageo$ news:3B3622BA.D2A80003@Compaq.com...J > Why is there a (big) gap between the 2nd of March and the 19th of May inG > this forum? Where have the posts gone? And if they have expired (RIP)i1 > why do the posts dated march are wtill present?i >rH > I am looking for the thread on the "know a number of records in a file > in one line".a >y	 > Thanks,t >  > D. > --D > Compaq Computer (Schweiz) GmbH, Ueberlandstrasse 1, 8600 Dubendorf> >      All opinions expressed are my own and not my employer's   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:35:13 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e* Subject: Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture, Message-ID: <3B3632DF.4C4A1855@videotron.ca>   CSABA HARANGOZO wrote:1 >         Good luck to HP... they will need it...d  M Considering that Compaq is about to embark on the same philosophy of a singleiG processor for all, your wish of good luck to HP also applies to Compaq.I  F The big winner in this might be IBM with its PowerPc chip (and Apple).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:22:19 +0001,! From: mario <jane0l2l@excite.com>p9 Subject: Manuf. Production/Contrl Software For $1,495.00.p+ Message-ID: <200106200226453.SM00194@plain>e  F Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based software package,=F  can manage and control your operation from sales quote to shipment. = =20   F For one week only, Job Master, normally $2,495.00, is on sale for a t=F otal price of $1,495.00.  In order for you to receive this $1,000.00 =1 savings we must have your order by June 22th. =20e  F Job Master is designed specifically for small to medium sized manufac=F turers, and costs many thousands of dollars less than any other even =% remotely comparable software package.a  F Following is a list of features. If you have any questions, would lik=F e to discuss the package further, or if you would like to obtain our =F Web site address for a total walk through of the program, please call=F  me directly at (661)254-9926(please do not E Mail me back.  I may no=F t get your message if you simply hit "Reply" and respond to this mess= age via return E Mail).e  F By way of background, we are a software company, which for some years=F  has specialized in the development of custom software, primarily for=F  small to medium sized manufacturers.  Job Master is a distillation o=F f over a million and a half dollars of software we have developed to =? control and manage the production of our manufacturing clients.t  + Job Master contains the following features:c  F 1. QUOTATION MODULE.  In this module, quotes are developed, modified,=F  and produced for sending to your client.  A history is kept of all q=F uotes for future reference, or modification for other clients.  All q=F uotations and revisions are "auto numbered," including versions.  The=F  quotes section allows for the entry of parts/processes, and costing =F of each, including materials, labor, markup, and taxes.  Inventory st=5 atus can be accessed from this section for reference.n  F 2. SALES ORDER.  Once a quotation is accepted, the final quotation in=F formation can be transformed into a Sales Order for your client's sig=F nature on a "point and click" basis.  The Sales Order can be modified=F  and re issued if necessary.  A history if kept of all Sales Orders f=F or future reference, or modification for other clients.  All sales or=F ders and revisions are "auto numbered," including versions.  Inventor=9 y status can be accessed from this section for reference.   F 3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the Quotation and Sales Order=
  sections.  F 4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER.  Once a Sales Order is accepted, the sal=F es order information can be transformed into a shop traveler/work ord=F er on a "point and click" basis.  Each item on the Sales Order become=F s a shop traveler/work order, with each step of production of the ite=F m then listed on the traveler/work order.  Each such traveler/work or=F der is tied back into the Sales Order.  The shop traveler/work order =F allows for the entry of line items, and notes on each line item. The =F shop traveler/work order contains a "notes" section.  The Shop travel=F er/work order allows for the storing or attachment of drawings to the=F  traveler/work order.  The shop traveler/work order also contains a "=F drop down," from which standard processes can be selected for inclusi=F on on the shop traveler/work order.  The shop traveler/work order num=F bers progress in order of production sequence, and re numbers them if=F  new steps are added.  The shop traveler/work order allows for change=8  orders or revisions, and numbers changes in sequence ofF he original shop traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2,=F  etc.  All shop traveler/work orders and related revisions are retain=F ed in memory for future reference.  The shop traveler/work order is b=F ar coded for tracking of production step by step, and production of o=F ngoing client status reports.  Bar coding includes the ability for an=F  employee to "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the syste=F m as to who upgraded what step.  The shop traveler/work order functio=F n also allows for manual update of production status.  The shop trave=F ler/work order allows for quality control sign off, and the final pro=F duction of certifications, either from a "canned" list, or hand typed=  in on a case by case basis.  F 5. INVENTORY.  The application includes an inventory section, which a=F llows operations to check materials inventory in and out.  The invent=F ory section allows for the comparison of inventory received against a=F  P.O., and produces an "overage/underage" report of inventory receive=F d as compared against the P.O.  The inventory section allows for the =F setting of minimum (re-order now!) and maximum inventory amounts, and=F  produces reports showing what inventory needs to be ordered, as well=F  as inventory that is at or above the maximum set to have in house.  =F  The inventory section also tracks "partially shipped" orders, which =F are tied in to the shipping function.  This section shows how much co=F mpleted product under a particular order has been actually shipped to=F  a client, and how much remains to be shipped.  The balance is adjust= ed as shipments are made.e  F 6. REQUEST FOR PURCHASE.  The application allows operators to produce=F  a Request For Purchase for accounting for any inventory items, which=F  need to be ordered.  Inventory items have a drop down of approved ve= ndors for each item.  F 7. REQUEST FOR BID.   The application allows operators to produce a R=F equest For Bid for accounting to send to Vendors for any inventory it=F ems, which need to be ordered.  Inventory items have a drop down of a=D pproved vendors for each item to which Requests For Bid can be sent.  F 8. INVOICE.  The application produces an invoice/invoice detail for a=9 ll completed items ready to be billed/shipped to clients.i  F 9. PRODUCTION OUTPUT STATUS.  The application produces a date range s=F electable report on how much product, and the value of the product, w=F hich was completed during a selected date range.  The application als=F o produces a report on how many orders, and the value of those orders=< , which remain to be completed during a selected date range.  F 10. The application produces SHIPPING DOCUMENTS as per selected shipp=! ers, and produces a PACKING SLIP.e  F 11. The application has a "FIND" FUNCTION in selected sections, allow=: ing for searches by customer name, work order number, etc.  F 12. The application has "AUTO FILL;" i.e., when an operator starts to=F  type in a name, number, etc. all related information auto fills afte=0 r the first few letters or numbers are typed in.  F Job Master is currently being sold in the marketplace for $2,495.00 p=F er package.  However, if we receive your order by June 22th, your tot= al price will be $1,495.00.a  F Again, if you have any questions at all, or would like to place your =D order, please call me on my direct line, (661) 254-9926.  Thank you!     Mario Chavez Application Sales, Inc.t  F ---------------------------------------------------------------------= -p  F You have received this newsletter because you signed up for updates o=F n our tracking software.  If you want to unsubscribe from this newsle=C tter, please send a reply email with "REMOVE" in the subject line.=p =20t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:32:27 +0200e0 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Compaq.com>; Subject: PCSI SOFTWARE function does test product existenceh* Message-ID: <3B36323B.97998589@Compaq.com>  ' The 13-apr-2001 15:54 I posted this in  2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal/message/26  A >Subject:  PCSI SOFTWARE function does not test product existencec >lF >Page 7.78 of the Polycenter Software Installation Utility Developer's; >Guide (AA-Q28MC-TK dated january 1999 OpenVMS 7.2) states:a >o9 >"The SOFTWARE function tests the presence of a product".t > F >Actually, it tests version dependency, but it seems to forget to testC >PCSI registered product existence. If you have a product TOTO V2.4a; >installed and you need to test its version, it works fine.s >aH >If you remove TOTO or do not install it prior to your installation, the> >SOFTWARE function doesn't detect that TOTO is missing and the+ >installation is performed without warning.n   Today I post this:  D This post is an error. It is the SOFTWARE *statement* which does not test  / product existence, but does only version match.d  I The SOFTWARE *function* of course does testing. So, to know if a product bH exists and has a valid required version, both SOFTWARE syntax should be G included in the PDF. The function to test if the product is installed, lF and the statement in a "if software XXX YYY version below ZZZ then" to  control the version requirement.  A The SOFTWARE statement has no purpose to test the existence of a vE product, this is why nothing happens when the tested product actualy c does not exist.0   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:40:06 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f# Subject: Question to Charlie Matco.0, Message-ID: <3B36C09F.318C1BE9@videotron.ca>  
 Mister Matco,c  * Hopefully your dog Muttco is doing well...  L However, considering the rumours floating around, I have a question for you.  L The 180 days of transformation memo has been made public. This memo does notL seem to bode well for VMS and Alpha. Yet, you have stated that VMS customers have nothing to worry about.  4 You obviously have additional information, correct ?  N Based *ONLY* on that 180 day memo, do you agree that VMS customers have reasonH to fear a long period of uncertainty during some form of transition to a industry standard platform ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:10 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>T Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy  VMSD Message-ID: <G%vZ6.3602$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  6 "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3B33D4AA.FD7AB656@infopuls.com...A > From what I know there is enough left to blame Compaq for which , > has been under complete control of Compaq.  K That's for sure.  Compaq shedding Alpha, VMS, etc. would be classic Compaq.eF Get rid of all technology and base your strategy on being able to sellI middle of the road integrated boxes for premium prices based on it having  the Compaq label on it.   L The only problem is that Dell has focused on delivering the exact same thingL but using a delivery model that allows them to strip off the most profitableH part of Compaq's business.  If the sale is more than selling boxes, DellF leaves it to Compaq or Dell or someone similar.  Compaq will solve theG problem with Intel and Microsoft products and then Dell will come in at=J build the bulk of the PCs with Compaq getting nothing.  IBM will solve theI problem with chips that reinforce IBMs chip business, whether from Intel,RK AMD, Transmeta, and with components made by IBM, and with IBM software from J Lotus, and if Dell gets the bulk of the PC sales later on, at least IBM isF making money on the IBM components that Dell is using and from the IBM software involved.  J Compaq started out doing "portable" computers.  They let that market go toI Toshiba, but today I'd say that Dell is probably making the most money in. that category.  I Compaq is getting a lot of press for making more money in the palm/pocketTG computer category, but there is nothing about the iPaq that is uniquelyTK Compaq except for the Compaq and iPaq logos.  If Dell isn't matching Compaqo3 in volume in 2 years, Michael Dell should be fired.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:57:04 GMT . From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>S Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMSsD Message-ID: <A%vZ6.3600$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  9 >"John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in messages >news:sb3100c9.029@aaas.org...I >And while I don't want to start this whole thing again - a port to IntelvL wouldn't hurt. At this >point in the tech revolution, how many people need a& million dollar system out of the gate?  1 That's already been done - its called Windows NT.o  G The problem with Windows NT is that the software isn't developed by thea  people who deliver the "system".  L When a problem is found in the hardware, or when building a large system, orI when trying to integrate some new hardware option into the system, 90% oftK the time, the only place where the fix can be done is in Windows NT, eitheruK to work around a design bug in the hardware that its impossible to fix (for K example, ISA is a design bug which required dozens of Microsoft releases toML workaround, partially), or the new hardware takes you done a buggy code pathJ in Windows NT with no viable way of avoiding that code path no matter what. you do with the hardware, firmware, or driver.  G The DEC way of engineering was to look at the entire system and fix theb: problems in the best place from an engineering standpoint.  C The Compaq way of engineering is to avoid being responsible for anynK technology at all so that it is not responsible for fixing any bugs at all.aI VMS is totally contrary to everything in Compaq's culture.  If there is a I bug in a Compaq Classic PC server, the blame is either Microsoft, Novell, F Linux, Intel, AMD, Adaptec, Logitek, Nvidia, etc., but never Compaq's.  K For the classic DEC products, responsibility was always DEC's so DEC had nopJ one to blame and, while there were many cases of finger pointing, the buckJ stopped with KO and he just insisted that someone step up and do the rightG thing.  Based on faulty assumptions, DEC switched to using vendors likecF Adaptec, Qlogic, Symbios, Intel, Quantum, Seagate, etc. for componentsE figuring that reliable products would be more quickly forth coming atiJ commodity prices.  It turned out that the costs were higher because of allL the qual costs involved in getting these components tested and debugged, andH the complexity of getting another company's engineers talking with DEC's< engineers meant that it took longer to release the products.  L Another facit of the problems is having the "system" components to deliver aG solution.  When VMS was ported to Alpha, DEC owned half of the criticaleG pieces going from the database to the odd system management tools.  And I DEC's VMS Alpha migration folk worked hard to make sure that its partnersnL could and would port.  One incentive was being able to show that there was aK solution in every category, so that if an ISV didn't do the port, there wasiL a competitor to step in.  As long as moving from VMS to VMS was a lot easierK than moving to unix or windows, customers were going to move to VMS even if 9 they had to switch from one product to an equivalent one.g  K In the case of DEC's unix, the ISVs had been jerked around with the changeslJ to unix as it jumped from bsd, to svid, to osf, and switched hardware fromJ VAX to MIPS to Alpha.  Most ISVs found it easier to migrate their products) and their customers from VAX unix to Sun.2  K Today, moving VMS from Alpha to anything else would eliminate anything that H can't run in an Alpha emulator and an Alpha emulator is almost certainlyK only going to support Alpha VMS user mode.  Since that will kill off OraclerJ and Rdb, that kills off about 70% of the applications on VMS, and with 70%L of the applications killed off, that leaves about 5% of the customers with aK solution.  (Why would Oracle do a port from Alpha VMS to IA64 VMS when theyyK are already running more software on IA64 Linux?  Oracle doesn't offer half L of its software on VMS as it is because its not profitable enough to do so -L its easy enough to convince customers to use Sun or even Windows.  Note thatL Oracle has heavily embraced Java and its hard enough dealing with buggy JavaJ on Solaris and Windows, so someone needs to be willing to pay a lot to add' in Java on Alpha, whether VMS or unix.)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:04:11 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMSVMn, Message-ID: <3B369C1B.A7A01EEF@infopuls.com>   mulp wrote:e > ; > >"John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in message   > >news:sb3100c9.029@aaas.org...K > >And while I don't want to start this whole thing again - a port to IntelfN > wouldn't hurt. At this >point in the tech revolution, how many people need a( > million dollar system out of the gate? > 3 > That's already been done - its called Windows NT.0 > I > The problem with Windows NT is that the software isn't developed by thed" > people who deliver the "system". > N > When a problem is found in the hardware, or when building a large system, orK > when trying to integrate some new hardware option into the system, 90% ofIM > the time, the only place where the fix can be done is in Windows NT, eitheroM > to work around a design bug in the hardware that its impossible to fix (forpM > example, ISA is a design bug which required dozens of Microsoft releases tokN > workaround, partially), or the new hardware takes you done a buggy code pathL > in Windows NT with no viable way of avoiding that code path no matter what0 > you do with the hardware, firmware, or driver. > I > The DEC way of engineering was to look at the entire system and fix thec< > problems in the best place from an engineering standpoint. > E > The Compaq way of engineering is to avoid being responsible for anypM > technology at all so that it is not responsible for fixing any bugs at all.eK > VMS is totally contrary to everything in Compaq's culture.  If there is aiK > bug in a Compaq Classic PC server, the blame is either Microsoft, Novell, H > Linux, Intel, AMD, Adaptec, Logitek, Nvidia, etc., but never Compaq's. > M > For the classic DEC products, responsibility was always DEC's so DEC had nooL > one to blame and, while there were many cases of finger pointing, the buckL > stopped with KO and he just insisted that someone step up and do the rightI > thing.  Based on faulty assumptions, DEC switched to using vendors likeeH > Adaptec, Qlogic, Symbios, Intel, Quantum, Seagate, etc. for componentsG > figuring that reliable products would be more quickly forth coming at L > commodity prices.  It turned out that the costs were higher because of allN > the qual costs involved in getting these components tested and debugged, andJ > the complexity of getting another company's engineers talking with DEC's> > engineers meant that it took longer to release the products. > N > Another facit of the problems is having the "system" components to deliver aI > solution.  When VMS was ported to Alpha, DEC owned half of the critical=I > pieces going from the database to the odd system management tools.  AndrK > DEC's VMS Alpha migration folk worked hard to make sure that its partnerspN > could and would port.  One incentive was being able to show that there was aM > solution in every category, so that if an ISV didn't do the port, there washN > a competitor to step in.  As long as moving from VMS to VMS was a lot easierM > than moving to unix or windows, customers were going to move to VMS even ift; > they had to switch from one product to an equivalent one.s > M > In the case of DEC's unix, the ISVs had been jerked around with the changeswL > to unix as it jumped from bsd, to svid, to osf, and switched hardware fromL > VAX to MIPS to Alpha.  Most ISVs found it easier to migrate their products+ > and their customers from VAX unix to Sun.r > M > Today, moving VMS from Alpha to anything else would eliminate anything thatrJ > can't run in an Alpha emulator and an Alpha emulator is almost certainlyM > only going to support Alpha VMS user mode.  Since that will kill off Oracle0L > and Rdb, that kills off about 70% of the applications on VMS, and with 70%N > of the applications killed off, that leaves about 5% of the customers with aM > solution.  (Why would Oracle do a port from Alpha VMS to IA64 VMS when theytM > are already running more software on IA64 Linux?  Oracle doesn't offer halfeN > of its software on VMS as it is because its not profitable enough to do so -N > its easy enough to convince customers to use Sun or even Windows.  Note thatN > Oracle has heavily embraced Java and its hard enough dealing with buggy JavaL > on Solaris and Windows, so someone needs to be willing to pay a lot to add) > in Java on Alpha, whether VMS or unix.)i  ; While I agree fully to all your statements I want to add ani= analogy to the supposed Oracle situation: why would it a gooda> idea to have UNIX incorporated into VMS while there are enough% UNIX platforms available incl. Tru64?d? Would you also agree as a side effect conclusion from your posts< that DII COE i.e. Slowaris compatibility is a waste of time, money and engineering effort?d   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:28:03 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>nY Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company shouldbuy VMS VMSVMs, Message-ID: <3B363132.1842C160@videotron.ca>   Paul Sture wrote:iE > I am coming from the angle of minimum dialup connection times here. C > Netscape on VMS doesn't cut that, as it will grab the headers butmC > wants to be online for the text of each message I choose to read.r  G Netscape on MAC allows you to select newsgroups and download all unreadr messages and then work offline.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:56:57 GMTt. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SadnessD Message-ID: <t%vZ6.3598$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  4 "Howard S Shubs" <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message6 news:howard-02D66A.08253522062001@enews.newsguy.com...7 > In article <01K52W9R6NTE001TY5@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,i) >  paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:  >.K > > Well, this weekend our corporate believe they have done the right thingl; > > and gone to Tru64.  Nice advice, nice money for Compaq.U >OH > That's the way it's going, yes.  VMS -> UNIX.  It's not a bad thing to learn,: > though VMS is a heck of a lot easier (IMO) to work with.  H Its rare for customer to go from VMS to Tru64, most go from VMS to unix.L Of course, unix is only available from Sun.  Tru64, like AIX, HP/UX, Ultrix,4 and so on is just another proprietary unix wanna-be.  I Just as Microsoft drove out all the *8* (z80, 8080, 8086, yada yada) codeeK loaders by being focused, Sun is driving out all the varients of unix.  ForeJ Sun, linux is a bit of a dilemma because it helps kill off unix wanna-bes,I but it is also a threat to Solaris.  Still, for Sun, owning the non-LinuxtK part of a growing non-Microsoft unix like market is better than being alonei it opposing Microsoft.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:16:45 -0400o' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>w Subject: Re: Sadness< Message-ID: <howard-39722F.22164424062001@enews.newsguy.com>  D In article <t%vZ6.3598$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,0  "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net> wrote:  J > Its rare for customer to go from VMS to Tru64, most go from VMS to unix.N > Of course, unix is only available from Sun.  Tru64, like AIX, HP/UX, Ultrix,6 > and so on is just another proprietary unix wanna-be.  N If you say so, but that contradicts my experience.  Compaq shops want to stay 	 that way.  --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:00:07 +0200a) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>s Subject: Re: Sadness, Message-ID: <3B36A937.2892434D@infopuls.com>   mulp wrote:2 > 6 > "Howard S Shubs" <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message8 > news:howard-02D66A.08253522062001@enews.newsguy.com...9 > > In article <01K52W9R6NTE001TY5@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>,y+ > >  paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:r > >GM > > > Well, this weekend our corporate believe they have done the right thingf= > > > and gone to Tru64.  Nice advice, nice money for Compaq.e > >eJ > > That's the way it's going, yes.  VMS -> UNIX.  It's not a bad thing to > learn,< > > though VMS is a heck of a lot easier (IMO) to work with. > J > Its rare for customer to go from VMS to Tru64, most go from VMS to unix.N > Of course, unix is only available from Sun.  Tru64, like AIX, HP/UX, Ultrix,6 > and so on is just another proprietary unix wanna-be. > K > Just as Microsoft drove out all the *8* (z80, 8080, 8086, yada yada) codetM > loaders by being focused, Sun is driving out all the varients of unix.  ForhL > Sun, linux is a bit of a dilemma because it helps kill off unix wanna-bes,K > but it is also a threat to Solaris.  Still, for Sun, owning the non-LinuxdM > part of a growing non-Microsoft unix like market is better than being alonem > it opposing Microsoft.  > SUN is already in a process of dropping Slowaris on SPARC. The  IA32 version is almost dead now.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:59:30 -0700e! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>s# Subject: stopping autoboot on 433au-9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEEACNAA.tom@kednos.com>r  K Anybody remember how to stop autoboot on PWS 433au and 533au, I tried F2 F6o	 F8, ^C ^Z- ^D   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:23:48 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)' Subject: Re: stopping autoboot on 433auoL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2406011923480001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEEACNAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:i  M > Anybody remember how to stop autoboot on PWS 433au and 533au, I tried F2 F6e > F8, ^C ^Zh > ^D  A I've only used PWS 600au systems, but I assume the are the same.\g  J At certain times during the boot, you can interrupt with ctrl-C.  But mostF of the time, the system isn't listening to the keyboard, and you can'tB stop it.  The hardware reset button is also ineffective sometimes.  I If you want to prevent it from booting on power-up, I think (from memory)S you do it like this:   >>> set auto-action halt   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 02:14:31 +0200a2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)' Subject: Re: stopping autoboot on 433auf; Message-ID: <3b368267.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>.  " Tom Linden (tom@kednos.com) wrote:? > Anybody remember how to stop autoboot on PWS 433au and 533au,d > I tried F2 F6 F8, ^C ^Z ^D  
 ^P  (IIRC)   cu,b   Martin -- nD                        |  Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1   OpenVMS: When you    |  work: mv@pdv-systeme.de E   KNOW where you want  |     http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/o8   to go today.         |  home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:21:00 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> $ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical), Message-ID: <3B362F8B.D2870AE6@videotron.ca>   Phil Howell wrote:  > I almost certain you are wrongL > The price of maintenance on VAXen made is cost effective to move to alphas > many years ago  J But the low cost of second hand VAXes has made is cheaper t just buy spare. machines and not pay for hardware maintenance.  K Do remember that a non trivial amount of Digital software was not ported toaL Alpha and customers who have built around such middleware are forced to stay% on VAX if they wish to remain on VMS.k   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:25:40 -0400f- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical), Message-ID: <3B3630A3.954E02A2@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:J > > If Intel does buy Alpha, something like PALcode will find its way into< > > future CPU designs if the folks at Intel have any sense. > E > Possibly they are prohibited from having PALcode now due to patentsu@ > since PALcode might be argued to not be part of "chip" design.  L Well, if Compaq donates Alpha to Intel, Intel will have all the intellectualN property it wants. However, I am foubtful that something such as PALcode wouldL be added to IA64. Remember that that chip is already very heavily laden withL lots of stuff that requires a lot of real estate on the chip. The bigger the chip , the lower the yields.    K Personally, I think that IBM would be more amenable to adjusting its Power4o9 chip to accomodate VMS than intel would be with its IA64.d  L From a competition point of view, I would rather see VMS and Tru64 ported toL the Power architecture than to Intel. This would make the Power architecture% more of a competitor to Intel's IA64.,   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:44:12 -0400N2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2406011944120001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com>  ? In article <IAfZ6.207$E97.208161@nnrp2.sbc.net>, "T. S. Murphy"c <murphyts@swbell.net> wrote:    J > Of course, from benchmarks posted on this newsgroup in the past, we knowN > that a Celeron running Linux outperforms VMS/Alpha on disk I/O by one or two > orders of magnitude. e  I We've seen such benchmarks for certain specialized disk I/O situations --iI such as when the data never actually goes to disk.  And I think your "twotG orders of magnitude" goes beyond anything I have seen posted here.  For G many other I/I situations, VMS is within a factor of 2 or 3 compared toiJ peecees running linux.  And VMS 7.3 and beyond are scheduled to close most of that gap.    7 > A Pentium 4 system has a much better memory subsystemd > than any Alpha,   J Source?  It seems to me that the memory subsystem is not the CPU, but moreG the support chips.  I was refering to system-level throughput, not just E the CPU itself.  Alpha systems are typically built to minimize memoryDF bottlenecks.  I don't know if that is generally true for systems built
 around intel.e  - > and the same I/O system as any Alpha (PCI).t  J How many PCI busses in a typical system built around intel?  How many in aH mid-range alpha system?  Yes, the bus standard is the same; that doesn'tB tell us anything about the throughput of a typical inplementation.  J A DS20E, for example, has 2 PCI busses to support 6 PCI slots.  It has 532J MB/sec I/O throughput, and 5.2 GB/sec peak memory bandwidth.  I don't haveJ such numbers available for a billybox, since I don't shop them.  Since youH already know that Pentium 4 systems are "much better", please supply the numbers you have.n  N > While true, it is not clear than PALcode offers an advantage which cannot beN > leveraged on a generic architecture with a software layer between the OS and > the processor.  G As I said, CAN is probably not the issue.  If the PALcode (for example)tI makes the software work substantially easier, then it may be the best waym to go.   -- r Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:49:49 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2406011949490001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com>  ? In article <oKfZ6.208$E97.211776@nnrp2.sbc.net>, "T. S. Murphy"  <murphyts@swbell.net> wrote:     M > There is definitely an incentive for that from the point of view of cost. IaN > bet a good Alpha emulator (i.e. doing dynamic code translation) running on aM > Pentium 4 would be fast - at least, much faster than an equivalently pricedtM > Alpha system. Since the I/O system of a PC and an Alpha system are so closeaK > (both have PCI), it would make much more sense to emulate an Alpha than ah8 > VAX (whose I/O system is entirely alien to the PC's).    Huh?  J Both alphas and vaxes have used many different I/O busses.  IIRC there wasG never a PCI VAX.  There have been many non-PCI alpha systems.  This has-$ nothing whatever to do with the CPU.  F If you really want to emulate (user-mode) VMS software, you'll have toH emulate QIOs to a wide range of devices, not all PCI-based.  I think theJ details of the software interface would be much more challenging than just raw PCI data transfers.-  I Providing peecee-style I/O interfaces in a VMS "emulator" would be fairlyfJ useless, it seems to me.  I've never used a VMS program that didn't do any I/O...   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com3   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:54:34 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2406011954350001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <888ZwKwXq2S3@eisner.encompasserve.org>,d: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > In articleA <rdeininger-2306012213110001@user-2ive69s.dialup.mindspring.com>,a4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > K > > Actually, the hardware support is nearly all in PAL, not the underlyingdM > > alpha.  Look at the Alpha Architecture Reference Manual.  Compare the PALoG > > routines for VMS to the ones for Unix.  The differences were mostlye4 > > motivated by the need to make the VMS port easy. > F > Which is no different than saying the instruction set of the VAX wasF > designed to make writing VMS easy in the first place (which it was).9 > Hardware without operating systems is pretty miserable.   J Sure, but the separation of the hardwired CPU from the PALcode was new andE different.  Vaguely analogous to loadable microcode, but a completelyaG different implementation concept.  PALcode is really software as far assB the alpha CPU is concerned, with just a teeny bit of real hardware8 support.  The resulting flexibility is really very nice.  J > > If Intel does buy Alpha, something like PALcode will find its way into< > > future CPU designs if the folks at Intel have any sense. > E > Possibly they are prohibited from having PALcode now due to patentsr@ > since PALcode might be argued to not be part of "chip" design.   Sounds likely.   -- ' Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:57:59 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2406011957590001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B3630A3.954E02A2@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n  N > Well, if Compaq donates Alpha to Intel, Intel will have all the intellectualP > property it wants. However, I am foubtful that something such as PALcode wouldN > be added to IA64. Remember that that chip is already very heavily laden withN > lots of stuff that requires a lot of real estate on the chip. The bigger the > chip , the lower the yields.  H I don't think PALcode requires very much real estate on the chip.  ThereD isn't all that much to do.  There are some reserved opcodes that areJ dedicated to PALmode instructions, and some protection mechanisms.  That's all I can think of offhand.   H Most of the fancy-looking PALcode "instructions" are routines written in ordinary alpha assembly code.    -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:45:01 -0500 ) From: "T. S. Murphy" <murphts@swbell.net>s$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)- Message-ID: <yIwZ6.159$0G.8079@nnrp1.sbc.net>   ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagerF news:rdeininger-2406011944120001@user-2iveba5.dialup.mindspring.com...  L > Source?  It seems to me that the memory subsystem is not the CPU, but moreI > the support chips.  I was refering to system-level throughput, not justfG > the CPU itself.  Alpha systems are typically built to minimize memoryuH > bottlenecks.  I don't know if that is generally true for systems built > around intel.t    H A P4 system can do 3.2 GB/s/processor, while a top of the line Alpha can only do 1.6 GB/s/processor.l  L > How many PCI busses in a typical system built around intel?  How many in aJ > mid-range alpha system?  Yes, the bus standard is the same; that doesn'tD > tell us anything about the throughput of a typical inplementation.    G The typical Intel system has one PCI bus, but there are certainly InteldL based systems with many more than one PCI bus. Not the least of which is theH forthcoming Grand Champion HE system which is the first system (from anyI vendor) to have PCI-X, and has quad channel DDR (for an absolutely insane  memory bandwidth of 6.4 GB/s)a  L > A DS20E, for example, has 2 PCI busses to support 6 PCI slots.  It has 532L > MB/sec I/O throughput, and 5.2 GB/sec peak memory bandwidth.  I don't haveL > such numbers available for a billybox, since I don't shop them.  Since youJ > already know that Pentium 4 systems are "much better", please supply the > numbers you have.     J The aformentioned GCHE does 6.4 GB/s for memory bandwidth (23% faster thanL the DS20E) , 5 GB/s I/O bandwidth (over 800% faster than the DS20E), and hasJ six PCI-X buses (+1 legacy PCI bus), versus 2 on the DS20E - and these are8 PCI-X, not the legacy PCI buses that the DS20E supports.   :-)0  L Please see http://www.serverworks.com/news/press/010227.html for details.YouJ can look at their site for information on some of their currently shipping systems.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:56:48 GMTe. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>$ Subject: Re: Your opinion (UNIX,VMS)D Message-ID: <k%vZ6.3596$Bp1.476335@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messaget% news:3B35369C.3ADD379E@bigfoot.com...r? > to wither, it is the lack of marketing and support by certain-J > individuals in the very company who invented it , that is to blame.  DECC > had some of the best hardware and software engineers in the world.J > working for it, and quite possibly the world's worst sales and marketing > people in history.  ; I think you miss the real problem that still handicaps VMS:t/       the DEC unix strategy did not embrace VMS I Sun developed an entend, embrace, engulf strategy.  Sun funded NFS on VMScG A/D work which became the basis for every VMS TCP stack except for UCX. I This allowed Sun to go into a VMS shop and say "VMS is great, VAXclusters K are great, we love VMS, but our workstations are cheaper and they work fineoK with your VMS servers."  When someone said, we can't switch to unix because,C we have this code written in FORTRAN using VMS system services, SunnC responded, "No problem, here's Acceler8 to get you up and running".t  J On the other hand, the DEC unix mindset was, "the best thing is for DEC isI to kill off VMS, but if the company won't do it, then we'll just tell ourrJ customers that they are idiots if they keep doing things on VMS".  Hey, itG was Lucente, the worst VP that DEC ever had, that told Oracle that they,1 should stop developing on VMS and switch to unix.s  F VMS was/is tied to the well being of the architecture that it runs on.E While the PDP-8 and PDP-11 familes had strong support from "partners"0B because they not only could add value by integrating solutions forK customers, they were absolutely required because of all the things that DEC%K didn't supply.  In fact, DECUS was founded and supported by DEC for decadesnL because KO, et al, knew that DEC would be successful by making its customers" dependent on DEC being successful.  J Then in the mid-80s, the attitude changed and lots of DEC's "partners" got/ screwed as DEC cut them out of the value chain.   H Today the question is whether Microsoft is a good partner.  Hey, this isJ just another page in the DEC playbook that Microsoft has adapted for theirL play.  One key change that Microsoft made was to embrace their partners, andF then when they became too profitable, engulf them.  Usually, MicrosoftF engulfed them by buying a cut rate license for an old version of theirL software and then bundled it; ultimately it kills off the partner's product.K but at least the partner got a pot of money to start up a new venture or toWJ retire.  If DEC had bought the TCP stack from Kasten, he might not have asH motivated to form TGV to offer a competing product; even better, a smartK deal would have been to encourage him to deliver a lot of missing pieces topK complement the product.  I argued for years that UCX should not include any K support for mail; later when I learned of PMDF, I argued that a license fortL "PMDF-lite" should be negotiated and bundled with UCX so that all complaintsK about Internet mail could be answered with "talk to Innosoft: they can sellU you a solution".  H Rdb is an interesting case.  There were several database products on VMSF (dating to the PDP-11), but they weren't exploiting VMS fully.  If theK reason for doing Rdb was to exploit VMS, then it might have been justified, J but the real reason was to grab money from Ingres and Oracle.  Needless toL say, they weren't too happy and their sales reps would redirect customers toL other, friendlier computer vendors.  DEC gave Rdb to Oracle for free, if notG less, but the result has been to tied a significant portion of Oracle'sTB profit to the DEC product line.  Oracle is a master of holding twoJ contradictory thoughts: IBM is the enemy because of DB2; IBM is our friendL because IBM's enemy, Microsoft, is Oracle' enemy.  VMS and Oracle should getL alone fine since they share common friends and common enemies: Microsoft andK Microsoft, for example.  Windows is clearly a fact of life that needs to be , embraced, but still, Microsoft it the enemy.  H Years ago the minicomputer was declared dead, but IBM took a mishmash ofL minis that were more confusing than all the operating systems for the PDP-11F and -8 combined, consolidated them, and then targeted them at VAX/VMS.F AS/OS/400 the VAX killer, then became the unix killer.  No, it doesn'tL generally go into unix shops and display unix, but it does go into DEC, IBM,L Unisys, HP shops and replace what might have become unix systems.  The enemyL is Sun and for every Sun solution, IBM has a set of partners who can deliverI an IBM solution; in fact, many of the IBM partners are also Sun partners.a  I Of course, after alienating all of its partners, forcing them to focus onrD Windows or unix, DEC then started selling off its software.  Lots ofF critical system management software went to CA which did what CA does,I increase prices until there's no more money to be made and then force the3E customers who can't go elsewhere to move to Windows or Solaris.  ThisRF pattern was repeated so that DEC was no longer a solution where a yearJ earlier it was.  Note this didn't affect just VMS, but also Alpha unix andK wnt.  Of course, alienating DEC unix customers was SOP with all the jerkingDK around that ISVs refused to deal with, killing VAX support and then killinga- MIPS support being just two of the bad moves.   I Still, IBM has demonstrated that you can buck "common wisdom", the commondI wisdom being that IBM is a dinosaur with no future.  And VMS has likewiseaH failed to follow the common wisdom, and the resulting marketing plan, byI failing to decline in revenue and profit contribution so that it could beV discarded without notice.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:51:12 +0200c) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n$ Subject: Re: Your opinion (UNIX,VMS), Message-ID: <3B36A720.B35CD8E6@infopuls.com>   mulp wrote:o > 7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messagea' > news:3B35369C.3ADD379E@bigfoot.com...oA > > to wither, it is the lack of marketing and support by certaintL > > individuals in the very company who invented it , that is to blame.  DECE > > had some of the best hardware and software engineers in the world-L > > working for it, and quite possibly the world's worst sales and marketing > > people in history. > = > I think you miss the real problem that still handicaps VMS:v1 >       the DEC unix strategy did not embrace VMSlK > Sun developed an entend, embrace, engulf strategy.  Sun funded NFS on VMSUI > A/D work which became the basis for every VMS TCP stack except for UCX.hK > This allowed Sun to go into a VMS shop and say "VMS is great, VAXclusterseM > are great, we love VMS, but our workstations are cheaper and they work finenM > with your VMS servers."  When someone said, we can't switch to unix becausehE > we have this code written in FORTRAN using VMS system services, SuntE > responded, "No problem, here's Acceler8 to get you up and running".  > L > On the other hand, the DEC unix mindset was, "the best thing is for DEC isK > to kill off VMS, but if the company won't do it, then we'll just tell our L > customers that they are idiots if they keep doing things on VMS".  Hey, itI > was Lucente, the worst VP that DEC ever had, that told Oracle that theyh3 > should stop developing on VMS and switch to unix.h > H > VMS was/is tied to the well being of the architecture that it runs on.G > While the PDP-8 and PDP-11 familes had strong support from "partners"nD > because they not only could add value by integrating solutions forM > customers, they were absolutely required because of all the things that DECtM > didn't supply.  In fact, DECUS was founded and supported by DEC for decadestN > because KO, et al, knew that DEC would be successful by making its customers$ > dependent on DEC being successful. > L > Then in the mid-80s, the attitude changed and lots of DEC's "partners" got1 > screwed as DEC cut them out of the value chain.s  = This is true. I worked two years for a company having a firsto= class storage management solution (for real goods not HW) andd? beeing at the same time DEC OEM for certain components that DECn? didn't offer, e.g. a controller for disk mirroring. HP tried to < persuade the company to port their SW to HP/UX and succeeded* only when DEC started to talk against VMS.  J > Today the question is whether Microsoft is a good partner.  Hey, this isL > just another page in the DEC playbook that Microsoft has adapted for theirN > play.  One key change that Microsoft made was to embrace their partners, andH > then when they became too profitable, engulf them.  Usually, MicrosoftH > engulfed them by buying a cut rate license for an old version of theirN > software and then bundled it; ultimately it kills off the partner's product.M > but at least the partner got a pot of money to start up a new venture or to L > retire.  If DEC had bought the TCP stack from Kasten, he might not have asJ > motivated to form TGV to offer a competing product; even better, a smartM > deal would have been to encourage him to deliver a lot of missing pieces to'M > complement the product.  I argued for years that UCX should not include anyyM > support for mail; later when I learned of PMDF, I argued that a license foruN > "PMDF-lite" should be negotiated and bundled with UCX so that all complaintsM > about Internet mail could be answered with "talk to Innosoft: they can sell  > you a solution".  > Micro$hit has two other strategies to kill a major competitor:< a) the soft one: buy the company like the one which produced> Visio. b) the hard one: develop a product that can compete and9 sell it for much less or bundle it with the OS, e.g. Word-8 (against WordPerfect) or IE (against Navigator). Because7 Micro$hit has that much money they could afford selling:= something at a dumping price for a long time, longer than the9@ competitor can survive without revenue from cut in market share.  J > Rdb is an interesting case.  There were several database products on VMSH > (dating to the PDP-11), but they weren't exploiting VMS fully.  If theM > reason for doing Rdb was to exploit VMS, then it might have been justified,nL > but the real reason was to grab money from Ingres and Oracle.  Needless toN > say, they weren't too happy and their sales reps would redirect customers toN > other, friendlier computer vendors.  DEC gave Rdb to Oracle for free, if notI > less, but the result has been to tied a significant portion of Oracle's D > profit to the DEC product line.  Oracle is a master of holding twoL > contradictory thoughts: IBM is the enemy because of DB2; IBM is our friendN > because IBM's enemy, Microsoft, is Oracle' enemy.  VMS and Oracle should getN > alone fine since they share common friends and common enemies: Microsoft andM > Microsoft, for example.  Windows is clearly a fact of life that needs to beo. > embraced, but still, Microsoft it the enemy.  > Offering more than the plain OS is a serious problem for every? vendor. A similar problem arose when Digital tried to transformr: itself into an independent consulting company. Most people8 didn't believe that Digital's consultant would propose a non-Digital solution.   J > Years ago the minicomputer was declared dead, but IBM took a mishmash ofN > minis that were more confusing than all the operating systems for the PDP-11H > and -8 combined, consolidated them, and then targeted them at VAX/VMS.H > AS/OS/400 the VAX killer, then became the unix killer.  No, it doesn'tN > generally go into unix shops and display unix, but it does go into DEC, IBM,N > Unisys, HP shops and replace what might have become unix systems.  The enemyN > is Sun and for every Sun solution, IBM has a set of partners who can deliverK > an IBM solution; in fact, many of the IBM partners are also Sun partners.V  > Honestly, I don't see how the AS/OS/400 was a VAX killer. This: system is extreme expensive, slow and almost impossible to> program efficiently. And as far as I know there is even no X11
 available.  K > Of course, after alienating all of its partners, forcing them to focus onaF > Windows or unix, DEC then started selling off its software.  Lots ofH > critical system management software went to CA which did what CA does,K > increase prices until there's no more money to be made and then force theLG > customers who can't go elsewhere to move to Windows or Solaris.  This H > pattern was repeated so that DEC was no longer a solution where a yearL > earlier it was.  Note this didn't affect just VMS, but also Alpha unix andM > wnt.  Of course, alienating DEC unix customers was SOP with all the jerking M > around that ISVs refused to deal with, killing VAX support and then killing / > MIPS support being just two of the bad moves.d > K > Still, IBM has demonstrated that you can buck "common wisdom", the common K > wisdom being that IBM is a dinosaur with no future.  And VMS has likewisemJ > failed to follow the common wisdom, and the resulting marketing plan, byK > failing to decline in revenue and profit contribution so that it could ber > discarded without notice.0   IBM have a future but in HW.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.349 ************************