1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 26 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 351       Contents: A few questions  Re: A few questions  A kick in the pants  Re: A kick in the pants  Re: A kick in the pants  A Primrose Path... RE: A Primrose Path... Re: A Primrose Path...& Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives5 Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup - Compaq C equivalent of pragma export on/off ? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?  Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Wars Re: Compaq kills Alpha Re: Compaq kills Alpha Re: Compaq kills Alpha$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence Re: Compaq switches to IA-64E RE: Compaq Transfers Alpha Rights to Intel after EV7 (was: Compaq tr) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) P Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) team..( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?> Compaq-Intel Contract Details (was: Question to Charlie Matco)& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation& Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation Re: DECnet Phase IV router' DecTCP static route on vms for hobbists & Re: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1P Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line:  Re: f$getqui Re: f$getqui First lost sale  Re: FORTRAN question Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  Re: FreeVMS  FUD  Re: FUD   Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. Re: Future support of VAX-VMS  RE: Future support of VAX-VMS  Re: Future support of VAX-VMS  Re: Future support of VAX-VMS  Re: Future support of VAX-VMS . Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!. Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!. Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!. Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!! Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture  Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64& I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwood* Re: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwood I will change platform Re: I will change platform IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World 4 Inappropriate assumptions (was: A kick in the pants) Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Intel/Alpha announcment  Re: Itanium HW REF MAN Re: Itanium HW REF MAN) JF Rants (was: The Secret Future of VMS") 8 Laptop VMS = Sunshine (was: Full port of VMS to Itanium) Re: Long distance VMS clusters: Macro32 on IA64 (was: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence Re: Marketing Rantings #3  Re: Marketing Rantings #3  Re: Mozilla 0.9.1  New Software Announce  Ode to Alpha Re: Ode to Alpha! Offical Compaq/Intel Announcement ; Re: Pathworks or AdvancedServer for Hobbyist? Alternatives?  Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco.9 Re: Remote connection error on OVMS 7.2 and Oracle 7.3...  Re: Req VMS Tutorial Re: Req VMS Tutorial Re: Req VMS Tutorial Re: Req VMS TutorialP Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMS V Sales and Marketing Lesson #1 ( Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS( Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS Re: Submitting Batch Jobs  TCL in OpenVMS Re: TCL in OpenVMS# TDMS/ACMS experts - Will this work? ' Re: TDMS/ACMS experts - Will this work? - The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated ( Re: The end of Computer Associates ?????I The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64 posting)  The Secret Future of VMS Re: The Secret Future of VMS Untel outside zone and VMS Re: Vax Service Centre' RE: VMS 7.3/Alpha boot bugcheck problem  VMS License descriptions Re: VMS License descriptions Re: VMS License descriptions Re: VMS License descriptions VMS on IA64  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)  VMS on UltraSparc? Re: VMS on UltraSparc? Re: VMS on UltraSparc? RE: VMS on UltraSparc? Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning.... ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? J Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean for COE?P Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean for COE? for C RE: X emulation over a PC  Re: [OT] Climate change   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:24:11 -0400 0 From: "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net> Subject: A few questionsA Message-ID: <KaTZ6.36072$9r1.2566746@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>   5 I cross-posted, because it encompasses a few systems.    First question:  What's the difference between: -Ultrix  -Ultrix UWS 
 -Ultrix-32   Second:  What the heck is MicroVMS?     Thanks in advance!     Tony  tonym -AT- compusource -DOT- net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:47:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: A few questions, Message-ID: <3B3805CD.EAA8D6E6@videotron.ca>   Sharkonwheels wrote: > What the heck is MicroVMS?  K MicroVMS was a version of VMS (circa 4.6, 4.7, until about 1987/1988) which L was packaged with fewer features to run on Microvax II systems. It came withN Micro documentation (not much documentation) and its installation was somewhat: simplified since there were fewer components to configure.  I Starting with VMS 5.0, MicroVMS disapeared and VMS installations gave the N option not to install some of the optional components to cater to systems that had small system disks.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:43:13 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: A kick in the pants> Message-ID: <5DLZ6.50594$_T2.12871687@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  J That was my point a little while ago, but after thinking about it, I stillL think this announcement (abandoning Alpha and porting to Intel) is a kick in0 the pants.  Maybe VMS needs a kick in the pants!  I How else are we ever going to hope to put VMS on a $500 box.  We have all K been saying that in order to get VMS into big shops, you have to start with I small shops and grow them.  Small shops couldn't afford Alpha and  VMS so ) they went with Intel boxes and Billysoft.   I Maybe Compaq will keep up the VMS hobbyist license program, and for once, K students and profesionals alike will be able to afford to move towards VMS.   K I have other positive thoughts about this,  but I do have to go to work for  a little while.   J BTW,   I just bought a few thousand shares of CPQ stock.  At this price it is a steal  (I hope).    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:48:59 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>   Subject: Re: A kick in the pants, Message-ID: <3B3795A6.2C480503@videotron.ca>   john nixon wrote: > > How else are we ever going to hope to put VMS on a $500 box.  C If Compaq had wanted to make VMS affordable, it would have made VMS G affordable. Digital and Compaq felt a need to protect the lucrative VMS M revenus by ensuring that customers bought the expensive boxes in order to run K VMS and in both cases, priced Alpha higher that intel machines to make sure ) that Alpha didn't steal sales from intel.   L While the last argument will become moot because all sales will go to intel,K it isn't a given that Compaq will make VMS run on all IA64 machines (Multia 
 anyone ?).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:15:07 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: A kick in the pants' Message-ID: <3B37A9DB.7E1C22BD@fsi.net>    john nixon wrote:  > [snip]L > BTW,   I just bought a few thousand shares of CPQ stock.  At this price it > is a steal  (I hope).   F If you have that kind of money (while you still it or its equivalent -G what did CPQ's stock do today, explode or tank?), you should be looking E for others in a similar position and launch a bid to buy OpenVMS away 
 from the "Q".    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:22:27 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: A Primrose Path... & Message-ID: <3B37AB93.4D12172@fsi.net>  F When the "Q" started advertising Alpha/NT in the UK and other non-U.S.D markets, we thought it was a good thing. Then, they killed Alpha/NT.  E When the "Q" started advertising OpenVMS in the UK and other non-U.S. E markets, we thought it was a good thing. Then, they sold Alpha up the  river.   Will we never learn?  G Then again, what's left? ...and what might be the sign of its impending  doom?   # Your guess is as good as the "Q"'s.   / Are we sheep? Are we lemmings? Are we not men?     We are Devo.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:23:13 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>  Subject: RE: A Primrose Path... L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  1 > Are we sheep? Are we lemmings? Are we not men?     > We are Devo.  1 Hey, speak for yourself.  I'm not Devo at all. ;)    Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '       ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:27:21 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> Subject: Re: A Primrose Path... : Message-ID: <dVOZ6.4953$P5.2221275@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  H You may not be Devo, and as an comp.sys.OpenVMS visitor, I'd have to sayK that you are in favor of evo.  But the Q is Devo.  Devolve Digital, Devolve  AlphaNT, Devolve Alpha...    Yes, what's next?    Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)  6 Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in messageF news:3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com... > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] > 2 > > Are we sheep? Are we lemmings? Are we not men? >  > > We are Devo. > 3 > Hey, speak for yourself.  I'm not Devo at all. ;)    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:15:46 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>/ Subject: Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives ) Message-ID: <3B37F0DE.9BA1181E@wi.rr.com>    why not /block=65535?    -s   Robert de Boer wrote:   3 > You should also look at crc and tape-compression.2 > N > The TZ89 can do his one crc so the backup-utility on VMS has not to do that.9 > The backup command qualifier /nocrc takes care of this.t > L > Tape-compression can also reduce the time needed for writing to tape. This2 > is also a backup qualiier but I can remember it. > 0 > For backup to tape I use the block size 65435. >p > Robert de Boer< > "Duncan Macdonald" <dmacdonald@cix.co.uk> wrote in message? > news:memo.20010621225330.27709A@dmacdonald.compulink.co.uk...t< > > I found out the hard way that the speed of backup to and; > > from TZ89 tape drives is heavily affected by the backupo@ > > block size. Going from the default block size (8192 for tape< > > save sets) to a block size of 24576 reduced the time for@ > > backups and restores by well over 50% (9 hours down to under< > > 4 hours). This was on an Alphastation 500 with VMS 7.2 .? > > If any of you are having problems with the time taken to doo@ > > backups, it may be worthwhile to see what block size you are> > > using on tape and increasing it if you are still using the > > default.@ > > (The speedup percentage was almost the same on a disk with a> > > few huge files and on another disk with thousands of small9 > > files. All backups and restores were full image - noto > > incremental.)n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:39:33 GMT ! From: jon@cmkrnl.net (Jon Morgan)i> Subject: Re: Carbon dating DEC/VMS users, was: Re: V7.3 backup* Message-ID: <3b37bd6c.7097695@130.133.1.4>  A On 20 Jun 2001 12:33:22 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (MalcolmA Dunnett) wrote:eJ >   I think it stood for "Labour Activity Reporting System". Originally itK >was a multipart form the service guys had to complete after each call with O >how many minutes were spent travelling, waiting for system, doing diagnostics,wI >eating lunch, arguing with customer, etc. I think it may have later been J >turned into an automated service where they'd call a telephone number and >punch a lot of buttons.  & Yup -- seen that in the UK and the US.  N >> [For the benefit of newcomers to DEC/CPQ: DEC, as part of your maintainenceM >> contract, used to supply a thick A4 size ring binder containing reports onsN >> everything that happened at your site. The reports were filled out at every( >> visit (including routine PM visits).  >s' >   Do they still do routine PM visits?s  A If you want. The newer systems don't GENERALLY need them as often?C (although I wish they would -- you should see the intake filters on  some of my systems *shudder*)p  @ We actually had a problem with some BA356 power supplies and theE enginner in question filled out a maintenance form (admittedly copiedmB from the original). Oddly enough, it DID have a LARS number on it,= although since it was at 02:00 EDT, I was in bed and couldn't # determine what the real reason was.a  / Oh yeah, I'm ordering a DECmove soon as well...t   		-jon.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:22:27 -0400A* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>6 Subject: Compaq C equivalent of pragma export on/off ?8 Message-ID: <leTZ6.97479$Uo3.2219785@news6.giganews.com>  F I hate to interrupt the wake with a VMS/Compaq C related question but:  G I'm fiddling [technical term for something done in my spare time] with lB some C code that originated on the Macintosh OS that seems to love usingf       #pragma export onl     #pragma export off  D for large chunks of external functions. I'm looking for a simple wayE to deal with this.... and this doesn't seem to be something supportedu> by Compaq C (I'm using Compaq C 6.2 on VMS 7.2-1 on an Alpha).  F If I understand what is going on correctly (remotely possible) I THINK& what I want is to use some variant of:       #pragma extern_model p  = for each function.... although the original source does it inl blocks between the on & off....l    Searching www.openvms.compaq.com4 (including Wizards & the FAQ) didn't cause anything ; to jump out at me as helpful in this case.... and throwing  2 it at Google seems to generate a lot of Ada & Mac " related hits and not much else....    Any help would be appreciated...   Thanks   -Andy-   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:09:31 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>V4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251605080.16346-100000@world.std.com>  - On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Christopher Smith wrote:t  L > I don't understand as well as I should the relationship between Compaq andL > API.  I have been under the impression, though, that API is independent ofD > Compaq, and manufactures Alpha chips for lots of different things.  G API was a marketing subsidiary set up and funded by Samsung and Compaq.e > M > What I don't know is this:  Was all Alpha development done by Compaq still?e   Yep.  # > Will it now all be done by Intel?o  I The EV7 team will put the finishing touches on EV7 and it's architectural  shrink.   A Intel now has the EV8 team. EV8 will not be developed; Intel willO4 incorporate Alpha technology in post-McKinley chips.   > 8 > Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess?  9 API NetWorks, ne API, will shuffle off its mortal coils. o >    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:18:30 -05001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam>o4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?2 Message-ID: <w53n16wgswp.fsf@pitcairn.spa.umn.edu>  / Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:o  : > > Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess? > ; > API NetWorks, ne API, will shuffle off its mortal coils.    " And who could tell the difference?   G. -- nI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- , Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - (612) 624-50409 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of MinnesotahI -------------------------------------------------------------------------r   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 00:58:40 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?* Message-ID: <3b37c220$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  z In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FD8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:K >I don't understand as well as I should the relationship between Compaq andeK >API.  I have been under the impression, though, that API is independent of C >Compaq, and manufactures Alpha chips for lots of different things.i >aL >What I don't know is this:  Was all Alpha development done by Compaq still?" >Will it now all be done by Intel? >l7 >Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess?   ? A VMS user will not care. API never did anything for OpenVMS...a   -- l< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888o< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:33:44 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?, Message-ID: <3B37D868.5E01C195@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: > L > I don't understand as well as I should the relationship between Compaq andL > API.  I have been under the impression, though, that API is independent ofD > Compaq, and manufactures Alpha chips for lots of different things. > M > What I don't know is this:  Was all Alpha development done by Compaq still? # > Will it now all be done by Intel?h > 8 > Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess? > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrise > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developerh > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");c > 'o >   @ I tried to get in contact with API several times to propose some> projects to push Alpha because I read that they had some money7 to fund that kind of projects. Unfortunately they neverU@ responded. I came to the conclusion that this company was merely9 a proxy who did nothing. Exactly the kind of company thato Micro$hit and Untel needed.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:48:42 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t' Subject: Re: Compaq Exits PC Price Warsh, Message-ID: <3B37BFCA.460F0C4C@infopuls.com>   mulp wrote:a > A > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messaget6 > news:11gU6.1591$Tc.303560@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...M > > The only real long-term threat I see from Dell is their potential abilitye > toL > > commoditize beyond 4P Wintel boxes. CPQ still has decent differentiation > andl0 > > value-add in the 8P space but that may fade. > M > That's a minor problem.  Imagine when Dell turns the iPaq into a commodity.h > N > Microsoft doesn't care if Compaq, HP, et al, lose money over all because theM > margin on handhelds are forced too low, it just makes them more competitivehK > with Palm compatibles and Microsoft gets higher revenue and higher marketo > share.  ? This is basically the problem for Compaq in all their commodity-< areas: they have no key differentiating factor and the money( goes to Micro$hit that way or the other.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:03:39 GMT2' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>  Subject: Re: Compaq kills Alphac0 Message-ID: <3B37AA1A.A61F4EF5@bellatlantic.net>   Hear ye, hear ye,wB anyone upset with compaq to the point of throwing out their alpha,A send me a note.  I have room for them.  They will be treated mostr
 respectfully.   2 I am committed to running them as pdp10 emulators. thanks bad bob    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:49:27 -0400o( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> Subject: Re: Compaq kills Alpha L Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10106251844590.31276-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  # On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, bad bob wrote:g   > Hear ye, hear ye,tD > anyone upset with compaq to the point of throwing out their alpha,C > send me a note.  I have room for them.  They will be treated moste > respectfully.  > 4 > I am committed to running them as pdp10 emulators. > thanks	 > bad bobi >  >t  ; It's probably a little late, but I actually had a couple ofo8 professors ask me today after reading the various online: press spins if this meant there was any chance I could get; some Alphas like I have PDP and VAX boxes to use as servers: in the department.  : Any donations, even of obsolete machines, gladly accepted.   :-(h   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   0   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:57:52 -0500y1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Compaq kills Alpha ' Message-ID: <3B37D000.C96A8D3D@fsi.net>a   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > % > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, bad bob wrote:p >  > > Hear ye, hear ye,dF > > anyone upset with compaq to the point of throwing out their alpha,E > > send me a note.  I have room for them.  They will be treated mostw > > respectfully.w > > 6 > > I am committed to running them as pdp10 emulators.
 > > thanks > > bad bobs > >e > >I > = > It's probably a little late, but I actually had a couple of1: > professors ask me today after reading the various online< > press spins if this meant there was any chance I could get= > some Alphas like I have PDP and VAX boxes to use as servers  > in the department. > < > Any donations, even of obsolete machines, gladly accepted. >  > :-(l  D I may be dumping my Alpha, MicroVAX and VAXstations RSN. Stay tuned.   -- r David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsc http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:13:35 -0400.+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>p- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence # Message-ID: <sb374718.073@aaas.org>,  L I have to agree. Intel tried to fork their product line with the Xeon, but =I they didn't do a very good job. Sun did this for a while with the Sparc =tL and the Ultra Sparc - rebrand the Alpha "Xeon" and have different OSes for =J different grades of chip. They could make the Alpha a commodity part but =- still gain everything they sought to in this.r  G Who am I kidding? We're doomed. I'm trying to be optimistic, but very =MI little good can come of this. The Itanic is a piece of junk. It we were =SF talking about McKinley, that'd be a different story, but a Compaq, a =I company with a better product with a solid user base blinked before the =oH game of chicken ever happened. I have a good friend who Intel tried to =L recruit shortly after the Pentium 'Tear Drop' Erratum (F00F C7C8), they've =K taken a hit PR wise the last few years, hence the stupid ad campaigns (if = K I owned an Intel CPU before the Blue People I would have run it over with =tI a truck by now). I think this has everything to do with M$ dropping the =wJ port to Alpha, making NT/2k the "platform independant OS" that only runs =J on one OS. Compaq probably questioned it's viability standing alone, yet =I some of the BSDs have dropped their Alpha ports because they don't have =e access to hardware.n  @ If anyone needs me, here's where I'll be:  http://www.sun.com=20   =BFfoo?g  I >>> Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum> 06/25/2001 1:48:10 PM >>>eE In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010625085538.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>,=20p*    Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:  J > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do = thatF > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven- > technology when they were first released...f >=20J     Isn't that a bit different - those were their chips and their survivalH depended on making them work. Does Intel *need* IA64 to succeed or couldE they survive by continuing to crank out enhancements to Pentium? It's D often stated that nobody needs 64bits on the desktop and Intels doneE quite well so far being a producer of desktop processors. Sure they'd-E like to go after the big server market with IA64, but it's probably a@' small percentage of their total market.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:18:22 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> - Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceCB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010625121009.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>  - At 11:48 AM 6/25/2001, Malcolm Dunnett wrote:-C >In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010625085538.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>,m, >    Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: >cO > > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do that.H > > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven/ > > technology when they were first released...i > >oL >     Isn't that a bit different - those were their chips and their survivalI >depended on making them work. Does Intel *need* IA64 to succeed or couldtF >they survive by continuing to crank out enhancements to Pentium? It'sE >often stated that nobody needs 64bits on the desktop and Intels done F >quite well so far being a producer of desktop processors. Sure they'dF >like to go after the big server market with IA64, but it's probably a( >small percentage of their total market.  M "nobody needs 64 bits on the desktop".  Nobody needed anything wider than theoH 16-bit UNIBUS either, but DEC made it 18 bits "just in case" (I had thatM conversation many years ago with some old-time PDP-11 guys in Maynard).  It's4J also often-quoted that Gates thought "32k would be enough for everything".  J Besides, look at the bloatware that MS Office is, or even Windows XP - youJ need 256mb to make it run right!  It may not be right, but it's the truth.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+hI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |sI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |aI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |kI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |dI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+2   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:46:42 -0400 - From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>e- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence 2 Message-ID: <3B374ED2.31A45094@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:c >  > H > On the bright side, VMS engineering is holding some very strong cards.K > VMS is mostly written in HLLs these days, including device drivers.  Once7K > good compilers are available (a huge job in itself), a lot of VMS will goa > without changes. >   H Huh?  Go look at the listings CDROMs and you'll see the majority (if notH a majority, then a very large portion) of device drivers (and many otherH things in OpenVMS) still written in MACRO-32.  Beyond MACRO-32, there isH considerable BLISS code which might not qualify has a "HLL" depending on your point of view...n   -- - John Reagan-# Compaq Pascal/AMACRO Project Leader1   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:57:24 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence , Message-ID: <3B378992.1950A320@videotron.ca>   David Moczygemba wrote:e > I > IMHO, Agreed that neither VAX nor Alpha processor was proven when firstwA > released, as a proven first release is an oxymoronic statement.l  M However, the previous track record of Digital was able to lead you to beleives2 that VAX and ALPHA were going to be quality chips.  L Intel's image does not include quality designs and people still remember the0 pentium bugs which Intel refused to acknowledge.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:08:41 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence , Message-ID: <3B378C37.C4142536@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:iL > MacOS survived an architecture change, and proved that it's hard.  VMS did7 > the same.  Can VMS make it look easy the second time?y  F MACos's architecture change was "transparent" because of the automaticL invocation of 68k interpreter for binaries that were built for 68k, and thisD includes mix/matching of "dlls" (extensions - drivers). A native PPCM application might rely on an extention that was still 68k binary and the usere didn't really know it.  Q Also, the MAC was still quite healthy at the time since Windows was still a joke.   K And when VMS was ported to Alpha, is was seen as a major improvement from aoK performance point of view, and VMS was a LOT healthier back then than it is-N right now. Neveretheless, the move from VAX to Alpha did hurt VMS because manyN customers didn't go to Alpha and went elsewhere. When you're asking a customer5 to do a conversion, he will look at all alternatives.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:20:56 -0400g5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceo1 Message-ID: <%aMZ6.118$rc5.4442@news.cpqcorp.net>o  6 Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-)      F John Reagan wrote in message <3B374ED2.31A45094@hiyall.zko.dec.com>... >Robert Deininger wrote: >> >>I >> On the bright side, VMS engineering is holding some very strong cards.IL >> VMS is mostly written in HLLs these days, including device drivers.  OnceL >> good compilers are available (a huge job in itself), a lot of VMS will go >> without changes.i >> >oI >Huh?  Go look at the listings CDROMs and you'll see the majority (if not.I >a majority, then a very large portion) of device drivers (and many otheruI >things in OpenVMS) still written in MACRO-32.  Beyond MACRO-32, there iseI >considerable BLISS code which might not qualify has a "HLL" depending onw >your point of view... >h >--  >John Reagan$ >Compaq Pascal/AMACRO Project Leader   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:53:00 GMTc- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)o- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence00 Message-ID: <3b37967b.14779371@news.process.com>  5 On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:20:56 -0400, "Fred Kleinsorge"a$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  7 >Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-)  >u; And not only that, but BLISS is a better language than C!!!p  @ Just thought I'd see if I could stir up that old argument again.   8-)t   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:14:58 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencee' Message-ID: <3B379BC2.D9FF63DE@fsi.net>o   Dan O'Reilly wrote:p > M > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do that F > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven- > technology when they were first released...   ? How many false starts were there when VAX processors were firstm	 released?    How many has Pentium seen?  ! How many has Itanic already seen?.   The defense rests.   -- s David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.-   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:29:38 GMT3 From: Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid>r- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencec) Message-ID: <9h86vi$68m$1@news.panix.com>d  # David.Moczygemba@UDPinc.COM writes:.I > IMHO, Agreed that neither VAX nor Alpha processor was proven when first.A > released, as a proven first release is an oxymoronic statement.u > K > Regardless, the difference here is that VAX to Alpha was a 32bit to 64bit J > evolutionary step, whereas,  Alpha to IA64, is a proven 64bit to unknown > 64bit side-step. -dp  
 Not quite.  E The VAX was an unproven design when it came out. And it can be lookedpG at as a 16bit to 32bit port if you are starting from a PDP-11 heritage.nC But they were both in house designs and though not entirely bet the 7 company, they had to make it work or they'd be history.   F Further, the VAX to Alpha was a proven 32bit to an unproven 64bit fromG a company with a good track record. And it was an in-house design and alG bet the farm decision, so it had to work or they'd be gone. (Debates on H whether they are gone because it really didn't work vs other reasons are left to another discussion).  C The difference now is that Apha to IA64 is a proven (but see above)aB 64bit to an unproven 64bit. But the new 64bitter is not an inhouseH design, and from the sound of the announcements it is a bet the divisionF descision. Plus, it will likely be easier to move from one 64bitter toF another 64bitter than it was to do the 32bit to 64bit port, especially; now that the first 64bit port has proven to be successfull.h  D As for bet the division, I find it hard to believe that Compaq would@ really bite off the very profitable VMS division in light of theD declining profits in the PC division by putting VMS (and NonStop) onF a hardware platform that is inherently inferior. It may not be as goodG as Alpha coulda/shoulda/woulda been, though time will tell, but it must.D pass muster with the VMS and Tru64 development teams before it'll be let out of the cage.  4 > "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message> > news:5.1.0.14.2.20010625085538.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com...J > > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do > thatH > > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven/ > > technology when they were first released...  >  >  >  >      --   --  M Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->com    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:31:31 GMT3 From: Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid>i- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence.) Message-ID: <9h8733$68m$2@news.panix.com>t  # kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com writes:e8 > Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-)  6 Bliss is a HLAL (high level assembly language) like C.5 Macro-32 is an assembly language on a VAX, and a MLALa- (medium level assembly language) on an Alpha.a -- o --  M Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->coml   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:46:33 GMTm2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence 1 Message-ID: <JqNZ6.122$rc5.4610@news.cpqcorp.net>i   In article <rdeininger-2506011200010001@user-2ivebei.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:-H :On the bright side, VMS engineering is holding some very strong cards. J :VMS is mostly written in HLLs these days, including device drivers.  OnceJ :good compilers are available (a huge job in itself), a lot of VMS will go :without changes.h  E   Based on a quick check of one of the larger of the source librarieseE   of OpenVMS Alpha operating system code around, Macro32 leads C and n   Bliss32 modules. l       *.MAR: 3811      *.C:   3708-     *.B32: 2589-     *.ADA:  1032     *.B64:  1322     *.COM: 2006i  D   This particular library contains 24191 total modules, so the aboveD   information is clearly a subset of the languages in use -- and allG   of the modules resident in the source library are not what you might o+   ordinarily consider to be source modules.   D   And yes, once we have the necessary compilers available, yes, the F   mechanical portion of the whole effort should progress along nicely.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:03:45 -0400-' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>-- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencec( Message-ID: <9h88p4$ivr$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Howard Siegel" <not.interested@nospam.invalid> wrote in message# news:9h86vi$68m$1@news.panix.com....   ...   F > As for bet the division, I find it hard to believe that Compaq wouldB > really bite off the very profitable VMS division in light of theF > declining profits in the PC division by putting VMS (and NonStop) onH > a hardware platform that is inherently inferior. It may not be as goodI > as Alpha coulda/shoulda/woulda been, though time will tell, but it mustiF > pass muster with the VMS and Tru64 development teams before it'll be > let out of the cage.  G That's not the question:  the question is whether enough customers willnH decide in the interim to move to a platform with a less uncertain futureE that the inferiority (or not) of the new platform will be irrelevant.iH History suggests that there will be a VMS market in 2 years (since thereI certainly appear to be people who will stick with it no matter what), butpK does not suggest whether that market will be large (or demanding) enough to & justify any continued VMS development.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 14:31:35 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)a- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence/, Message-ID: <yOwsQiXH0HkH@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  C In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010625121009.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, e,      Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: > L > Besides, look at the bloatware that MS Office is, or even Windows XP - youL > need 256mb to make it run right!  It may not be right, but it's the truth. > G     Maybe so, but you can fit 4GB into a 32bit address space, so that'ss  quite a bit of wiggle room left.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 14:35:25 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)h- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceb, Message-ID: <mZzELpNNikIL@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  i In article <%aMZ6.118$rc5.4442@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:c8 > Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-)  F    It sure is. Macro-32 is what I use when I have to do something that? seems too akward to do in BASIC ( saves me having to use C) :-)   ,    I assume Macro-32 will be ported to IA64?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:43:57 GMTp= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) - Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence 0 Message-ID: <009FE126.DFAF7805@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <3b37967b.14779371@news.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:6 >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:20:56 -0400, "Fred Kleinsorge"% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:e >n8 >>Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-) >>< >And not only that, but BLISS is a better language than C!!! >pA >Just thought I'd see if I could stir up that old argument again.y  . Still churning the paddle in the cauldron!  :)  I Not to start a language jihad here in comp.os.vms and detract from all ofcI the earth shattering and disappointing news, but I have to wholeheartedly. agree. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMP            tO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:27:29 -0700a+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>e- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence ( Message-ID: <3B37BAD1.E11E9D58@mmaz.com>   Howard Siegel wrote:  % > David.Moczygemba@UDPinc.COM writes:wK > > IMHO, Agreed that neither VAX nor Alpha processor was proven when first*C > > released, as a proven first release is an oxymoronic statement.u > >aM > > Regardless, the difference here is that VAX to Alpha was a 32bit to 64bitpL > > evolutionary step, whereas,  Alpha to IA64, is a proven 64bit to unknown > > 64bit side-step. -dt >t > Not quite. >kG > The VAX was an unproven design when it came out. And it can be lookedtI > at as a 16bit to 32bit port if you are starting from a PDP-11 heritage.0E > But they were both in house designs and though not entirely bet thet9 > company, they had to make it work or they'd be history.0  Q I started on VMS 1.6 and what you may not recall, or had the experience, but mostiL of the initial VMS utilities ran in RSX-11 Compatibility Mode...  What is myL point?  Yes it was crappy and you could crash VMS by simply using EDT but itP wasn't alien to the PDP folks with a command environment that was adaptable, theN PDP software could run on a VAX/VMS system to a limited extent, Macro-32 had aM lot of similarities to Macro-11, but more importantly, many of the memory andv, peripheral capacity limits were improved on.  M Now if you perform this same comparison with VAX or Alpha to IA-64, where areeO you?  I do not see any gains and this does presuming that VMS does successfully O port;  Will the Q create an Alpha or VAX compatibility mode?  I doubt it so allyI of the applications must be ported to native executables and I'm a strong N believer that many application developers still remaining in the VMS arena areI shaking their heads saying, does this make sense?  They have to be askingaN themselves, should I attempt to sell a $249 packet to hundreds of thousands ofQ possible NT/2000 customers and get them on the proverbial upgrade-bandwagon or do P I invest in porting an application in an attempt to sell a $2499 package to tens2 of thousands (if you're lucky and I'm being kind).  N Maybe I'm myopic as well as pig-headed, but in never too humble opinion, the Q screwed up big time...   Regards,   Barry-       >- > H > Further, the VAX to Alpha was a proven 32bit to an unproven 64bit fromI > a company with a good track record. And it was an in-house design and aaI > bet the farm decision, so it had to work or they'd be gone. (Debates onkJ > whether they are gone because it really didn't work vs other reasons are > left to another discussion). >-E > The difference now is that Apha to IA64 is a proven (but see above)-D > 64bit to an unproven 64bit. But the new 64bitter is not an inhouseJ > design, and from the sound of the announcements it is a bet the divisionH > descision. Plus, it will likely be easier to move from one 64bitter toH > another 64bitter than it was to do the 32bit to 64bit port, especially= > now that the first 64bit port has proven to be successfull.  >iF > As for bet the division, I find it hard to believe that Compaq wouldB > really bite off the very profitable VMS division in light of theF > declining profits in the PC division by putting VMS (and NonStop) onH > a hardware platform that is inherently inferior. It may not be as goodI > as Alpha coulda/shoulda/woulda been, though time will tell, but it mustIF > pass muster with the VMS and Tru64 development teams before it'll be > let out of the cage. >a6 > > "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message@ > > news:5.1.0.14.2.20010625085538.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com...L > > > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do > > thatJ > > > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven1 > > > technology when they were first released...c > >  > >r > >w > >i >w > -- > -- >sO > Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->comc   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOw  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:16:25 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>-- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence , Message-ID: <3B37D459.8783112F@infopuls.com>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:r > M > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do thatiF > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven- > technology when they were first released...  > 2 > At 08:44 AM 6/25/2001, Vance R. Haemmerle wrote: > >   And another thing... :)  > >eL > >   Turning over the future of the company to an unproven chip is Compaq'sI > >way to turn over all responsiblity of their high-end systems to eventseM > >out of their control.  It's the easiest way for managers who can't executeuE > >to have someone else to blame when the chip fails to come through.t > >tI > >   Obviously these events today guarantee IA64 MONOPOLY status and thesK > >FTC should look into this deal.  Their previous restrictions on the salewI > >of the Alpha FAB to Intel was not enough to stop Intel and Compaq frome4 > >removing the competition given by the Alpha chip. > >n > >--o > >Vance Haemmerle > >vance@alumni.caltech.eduu >  > ------K > +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+-K > | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |nK > | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |sK > | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |gK > | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |5K > +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+t  ? The main difference is that DEC had full and alone control overi the outcome.   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 01:09:19 GMT' From: prosullivan@aol.com (PROSULLIVAN))- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence>: Message-ID: <20010625210919.17018.00001055@ng-fp1.aol.com>  J um. Pause for thought: Compaq with 10 years + of developing alphas 'gives'@ Intel all of its chip tehnology for a chip that is how late...?   M Maybe Intel is using alpha as an insurance policy, should, horror of horrors,s+ the itanic not work as planned. Surely not..  M Also: does this mean that Intel will license the technology licenses from CPQ-, for their other customers using IA64 (HP?).   O Anyway any GS machine that could run my 2000 App server as well as my Oracle DBsJ on tru64 with no network in the way isn't a totally bad thing. Affinity II anyone?J   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 04:20:37 GMT3 From: Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid>s- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceB) Message-ID: <9h92il$e3c$1@news.panix.com>t   billtodd@foo.mv.com writes:rI > That's not the question:  the question is whether enough customers willcJ > decide in the interim to move to a platform with a less uncertain futureG > that the inferiority (or not) of the new platform will be irrelevant. J > History suggests that there will be a VMS market in 2 years (since thereK > certainly appear to be people who will stick with it no matter what), but3M > does not suggest whether that market will be large (or demanding) enough to'( > justify any continued VMS development. >  > - bill  I It may not be enough to save VMS or radically increase VMS sales in an ofhI itself, but I think that this breathes just enough life in to VMS to stopcJ a lot of the defections. The choice is to move to an inferior (relative toK VMS) OS on inferior hardware AND to have to eat the porting and development J costs and do the job fast versus holding out until the new likely hardwareJ is proven (or Alpha is brought back to life when the IA64 bombs) but startH working on a transition plan or even start the porting now just in case.   - howard   -- e --  M Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->coma   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 04:44:59 GMT3 From: Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid>:- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencep) Message-ID: <9h940b$ein$1@news.panix.com>e   Treahy@mmaz.com writes:DS > I started on VMS 1.6 and what you may not recall, or had the experience, but mosteN > of the initial VMS utilities ran in RSX-11 Compatibility Mode...  What is myN > point?  Yes it was crappy and you could crash VMS by simply using EDT but itR > wasn't alien to the PDP folks with a command environment that was adaptable, theP > PDP software could run on a VAX/VMS system to a limited extent, Macro-32 had aO > lot of similarities to Macro-11, but more importantly, many of the memory and . > peripheral capacity limits were improved on.  I Been there, done that. But eventually the hardware compatibility mode waslJ thrown out and you either had to port the software to be native VAX or youI ended up running with a software emulation of the PDP-11 instruction set.n  O > Now if you perform this same comparison with VAX or Alpha to IA-64, where aresQ > you?  I do not see any gains and this does presuming that VMS does successfullysQ > port;  Will the Q create an Alpha or VAX compatibility mode?  I doubt it so alliK > of the applications must be ported to native executables and I'm a strongnP > believer that many application developers still remaining in the VMS arena are3 > shaking their heads saying, does this make sense?o  N I see no reason why VMS won't successfully port to the IA64. It may be painfulO to do and might require a whole lot of new tools and much rewriting of existingr@ tools and old Macro-32 code, but I don't think it is impossible.  L As for a compatibility mode, why not? It just won't necesarily be a hardwareI solution. Why not create a virtual VMS machine on which the old Alpha andMI translated VAX binaries binaries can run. Or create a new translator that G takes Alpha binaries and converts them to IA64 (that one is tougher duelG to the compiler generated optimizations for the Alpha RISC architecturer) which might not fit in to the IA64 mold).O  J Further, there is no reason that some sort of JIT-coverter can not be usedH to translate compatible existing Alpha binaries on the fly for executionD just like was done for the MAC OS 68K binaries for the PowerPC chip.  L Sure there will be differences in the underlying architecture. But for a lotL of people if it still looks like VMS on the outside and they have conformingK source code that gets compiled and linked for the new instruction set, then-M they'll be happy a clams.  For those that have gone beyond FORTRAN/Cobol/etc.pI facilities to use system services and such, a lot can be emulated so that9K they can still run.  It's only when you get quite deep that you will run in L to the archictectural differences, but when you are that deep you are mostlyN looking for all the performance you can get so would be more likely to rewriteO to take best advantage of the new architecture. Until you get to device drivers  at which point you are stuck!i  P And, if anyone can pull it off, remember that there have only been two companiesN to succesfully port a propetary OS from CISC to RISC without grossly impactingM the look, feel, and usage of the OS... Apple and DEC. If those same engineerscJ are still at Compaq, they'll find a way to do it. (I discount UNIX in thisK discussion since it has always been kinda least common denominator from thehI start, so was much easier to port to anything claiming to be a computer).    > They have to be askingP > themselves, should I attempt to sell a $249 packet to hundreds of thousands ofS > possible NT/2000 customers and get them on the proverbial upgrade-bandwagon or donR > I invest in porting an application in an attempt to sell a $2499 package to tens4 > of thousands (if you're lucky and I'm being kind).  N Depends on how bad the porting will be.  If Compaq pulls it off, then IA64 VMSO will look just like Alpha VMS and they'll have source code compatible compilerssM so little if any code would need to be changed, at least initially.  That's adO damn site easier to take than having to change languages, run time environments  and OS all at once!o  P > Maybe I'm myopic as well as pig-headed, but in never too humble opinion, the Q > screwed up big time...  K I certainly can empathize with you. I grew up on DEC hardware and operating-K systems, and cutting that cord was tough. I'd certainly prefer to retire inlK my ripe old age while still cutting code on a DEC OS. But don't think of it-J as the Q screwed up big time, but that they have to opportunity to prevail( big time if they play their cards right.   - howard -- c --  M Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:58:03 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>>- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencel, Message-ID: <3B381650.2B6F2E37@videotron.ca>   Howard Siegel wrote:P > Depends on how bad the porting will be.  If Compaq pulls it off, then IA64 VMSQ > will look just like Alpha VMS and they'll have source code compatible compilerseO > so little if any code would need to be changed, at least initially.  That's aeQ > damn site easier to take than having to change languages, run time environments  > and OS all at once!m  C What about all the custom made drivers to run special machines, andl manufacturing plants ?  M It isn't so much the actual porting that worries me, but what happens between N now and when VMS in IA64 becomes a viable solution. If VMS sales dry up duringK that time, Compaq may have a hard time justifying continued budgets and thegC porting effort may be stretched on a longer period, just as Alpha'sl- depveloppemt was slowed with fewer resources.   K Remember that Compaq's main focus is to reduce expenses and make its winteln* boxes more competitive with those of Dell.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 14:40:00 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)l% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64v3 Message-ID: <$U+mdKHnvdpN@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  U In article <9h7shk$gor$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:   9 > As I recall Alpha was supposed to last 25 years not 15.o  A That was a statement made by the designers, on technical grounds.dC It was not an attempt to make a prediction of the marketing/finance. situation 25 years out.o  D Certainly Alpha could outrun Itanium, given equal development funds.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 01:44:25 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)nN Subject: RE: Compaq Transfers Alpha Rights to Intel after EV7 (was: Compaq tr)3 Message-ID: <aMMfBRfu8yBR@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  \ In article <3B38048D.E4153BF3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  K > But I doubt very much that Compaq is freely licensing Alpha. Isn't Compaq G > donating all rights to Alpha to Intel, so that Intel will be the sole  > proprietor of Alpha ?    In a word, No.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:59:44 -0400,) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>nR Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...); Message-ID: <9YRZ6.12377$yy2.1633782@news20.bellglobal.com>    *** Warming up Theory ***7  L The Alpha came out in 1992 but people really didn't warm up to it until 1995L (during that 3 year period it was primarily running OpenVMS and OSF/1 UNIX).J It is my belief that the DEC community won't warm up to OpenVMS (or Tru64)L on Itanium until the platform has been out for 3 years. If Compaq has a portI ready by 2003, then the warming up period shouldn't start until 2006. NowpJ assuming Compaq supports OpenVMS on Alpha for the same amount of time theyK supported OpenVMS on VAX (9 years at this point), that should take us up tot 2015.    *** Harware overlap Theory ***  E The Alpha came out in 1992 but Compaq didn't pull the plug on new VAX)G machines until the end of 2000 which is an overlap of 8 years. AssumingeL Compaq can get OpenVMS running on Itanium in 2003, and assuming another 4 to4 8 year overlap, that takes us between 2007 and 2011.   *** My Wish ***u  E What I'd like for Christmas is some assurance from Intel that they'llDJ manufacture Alpha hardware as long as there's demand for it. I'd also likeL to know what the intellegace and military communities have to say about thisL potential fubar. And what have the regulatory people said about this? Can it+ all happen without any government approval?   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,t Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/i   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 22:13:15 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)oR Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...)3 Message-ID: <UHnplrZ5R5KN@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  g In article <9YRZ6.12377$yy2.1633782@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:    > *** My Wish ***r > G > What I'd like for Christmas is some assurance from Intel that they'llmL > manufacture Alpha hardware as long as there's demand for it. I'd also likeN > to know what the intellegace and military communities have to say about thisN > potential fubar. And what have the regulatory people said about this? Can it- > all happen without any government approval?r  : I don't understand what you think Intel has to do with it.0 The latest fastest Alpha chips are built by IBM,2 who will happily build as many as Compaq pays them	 to build.I  3 Contrary to the initial rumors, Intel is not taking 4 over Alpha -- it is receiving technology secrets for5 use in their own chips (or non-secrets for that whicho5 is patented).  Intel is also receiving an opportunitya3 to recruit certain Compaq employees.  They are alsoy3 getting two more operating systems ported to IA-64.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:56:21 -0000a- From: wspencer@nospam.ap.org (Warren Spencer)$R Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...)3 Message-ID: <90CBE5720wspenceraporg@207.126.101.97>o  * n.rieck@sympatico.ca (Neil Rieck) wrote in1 <9YRZ6.12377$yy2.1633782@news20.bellglobal.com>:     >*** Warming up Theory *** > H >The Alpha came out in 1992 but people really didn't warm up to it untilE >1995 (during that 3 year period it was primarily running OpenVMS andVE >OSF/1 UNIX). It is my belief that the DEC community won't warm up toiD >OpenVMS (or Tru64) on Itanium until the platform has been out for 3F >years. If Compaq has a port ready by 2003, then the warming up periodD >shouldn't start until 2006. Now assuming Compaq supports OpenVMS onI >Alpha for the same amount of time they supported OpenVMS on VAX (9 yearsI0 >at this point), that should take us up to 2015. >v >*** Harware overlap Theory ***  > F >The Alpha came out in 1992 but Compaq didn't pull the plug on new VAXH >machines until the end of 2000 which is an overlap of 8 years. AssumingH >Compaq can get OpenVMS running on Itanium in 2003, and assuming another: >4 to 8 year overlap, that takes us between 2007 and 2011. >e >*** My Wish *** > F >What I'd like for Christmas is some assurance from Intel that they'llF >manufacture Alpha hardware as long as there's demand for it. I'd alsoG >like to know what the intellegace and military communities have to saydE >about this potential fubar. And what have the regulatory people saidA? >about this? Can it all happen without any government approval?s >  >Neil Rieck  >Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >Ontario, Canada.l" >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ >D >O >i  G Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensing 8@ Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  My J understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubt restrictions  apply.   ws   -- h <<< My opinions are my own >>>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:42:11 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>NY Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) team..M, Message-ID: <3B38048D.E4153BF3@videotron.ca>   Warren Spencer wrote:4H > Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensingA > Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  MyoK > understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubt restrictionsD > apply.  L On CNN, it was the INTEL big cheese that said that the Alpha technology theyG got would be integrated into Intel,s product line whci si sold on a nonlJ exclusive basis to many companies, so there is no anti-trust issue between Intel and Compaq.   I But I doubt very much that Compaq is freely licensing Alpha. Isn't Compaq.E donating all rights to Alpha to Intel, so that Intel will be the sole  proprietor of Alpha ?y   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 13:51:04 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)r1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?s* Message-ID: <9h7tm8$eiv$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <3B364CE6.14193DE2@infopuls.com>,+ Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:C >JF Mezei wrote: >> d >> Dirk Munk wrote:rK >> > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. It K >> > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generate F >> > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget that9 >> > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. .- >> -Q >> A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 million O >> bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going totF >> come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year. >> mN >> Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster than5 >> the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64).- >> -C >> And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as aaQ >> Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the way23 >> of its three-some relationship with its masters.V >>  M >> And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seal1# >> Compaq's faith as an NT company.s >>  O >> In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM wereiO >> to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Inteli3 >> buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can.n >n> >Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. No? >useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow ande) >visionless company - the least VMS need.y >   A I've often suspected you are out of touch with reality, but now In know you are waay out there.  & Let's see, useful SW developed by IBM:  % 	DB/2     - performance leading RDBMS-2 	ViaVoice - arguably the best voice recognition SW) 	MQSeries - best queueing architecture SWjB 	Important Linux enhancements like Journaling FS (many other Linux 	enhancements).t 	Best JIT Java compilerr7 	WebSphere - arguably best integrated Web product suitee; 	Lotus Domino - developed after they bought Lotus.  Widely a1 		regarded as the best Web-based collaboration SWi  G Oh the hardware side, it's again, too long a list, but some highlights:g   	Semiconductor tech.  	 		Copper i 		worlds-best lithographye( 		worlds-fastest demonstrated transistor. 		"Stretched" Silicon for 35% performance gain   	Storage= 		TravelStar HDs - best laptop HDs (these things are amazing)n 		Microdrive HDs4 		"Pixie Dust" promises 4x improvement in HD density    D More proof that IBM isn't sclerotic?  They are the dominant ServicesH and Consulting vendor in the world.  You know, where Compaq want's to beI now?  IBM didn't used to be so big in Services and Consulting, passing upa  EDS and others a few years back.  E Now, who is it that has MORE vision than IBM?  Maybe they aren't thattG quick to react, but it's hard to move fast when you are the biggest.  ItF think they do a really good job of being fast while being the biggest.  , >Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2?  L OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured unbelievable resources C into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut.  GH Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if they saw the / writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.0   -Jordan Hendersonm jordan@greenapple.comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:03:46 GMTp0 From: "P. Thompson" <thompson-nospam@new.rr.com>1 Subject: RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0106251256450.5886-100000@malacandra.localnet>t  ! DECsystem 5400, 5500, 5800, 5900.h  0 5400 and 5500 were QBUS, 5800 XMI mips machines.  / XMI is a server platform if ever there was one.e  & On 25 Jun 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  F > Remember it??  I have it running in the lab next door.  It continuedD > to run on and be developed for the VAX long after the MIPS version > was abandoned. >eD > Are you sure there were ever Servers that were MIPS based??  All IE > remember were DECStaions which were desktop boxes that mirrored theiF > functionality of the VAXStation family (and not very well, but then,B > I'm biased).  The only thing I find in a web search for the term# > "DECServer" are terminal servers.a >M > bill >e >u   --  * Leave the nospam in, correct email address   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:21:18 -0400t+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>i1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?n# Message-ID: <sb3748e5.002@aaas.org>i  K IBM now owns DB/2 and Informix, both pretty sub-standard RDBMSes compared =fF to Oracle, but they have a pretty large install base none the less.=20  K They also have AIX, which by most Unix standards is cryptic, but has some =,L really slick features (online disk management akin to OpenVMS bound volume =K sets or Netware). I'm not sure you can even do that stuff in Solaris Disk =SL Suite for 8.0. There are people who swear by OS/390 | MVS | and ISAM/VSAM. = And I think OS/400 is swell.  F Windows NT is the evil twin brother of OS/2. Yes, OS/2 lacked driver =H support, but all the good stuff ended up there, and when MS took their =H toys and left the sandbox they threw things together (NTFS the bastard =I ripoff of HPFS). OS/2 also had REXX, and you'll be happy to know when I =lI worked at the White House, Secret Service wouldn't let me in a building =tG until I scanned my keycard and entered my pin (all run by OS/2). That =e* system was in service for almost 10 years.  L IBM has by far the best harddrives of either flavor (SCSI or IDE). I don't =< buy or use anything else. I'm still waiting for one to fail.   =BFfoo?e  G >>> Jordan Henderson <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> 06/25/2001 1:51:04 PM >>>N> >Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. No? >useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and ) >visionless company - the least VMS need.e >c  A I've often suspected you are out of touch with reality, but now Io know you are waay out there.  & Let's see, useful SW developed by IBM:  % 	DB/2     - performance leading RDBMSr2 	ViaVoice - arguably the best voice recognition SW) 	MQSeries - best queueing architecture SWcB 	Important Linux enhancements like Journaling FS (many other Linux 	enhancements).  	Best JIT Java compilert7 	WebSphere - arguably best integrated Web product suiteg= 	Lotus Domino - developed after they bought Lotus.  Widely=20l1 		regarded as the best Web-based collaboration SWn  G Oh the hardware side, it's again, too long a list, but some highlights:m   	Semiconductor tech.=20  		Copper=20e 		worlds-best lithographyi( 		worlds-fastest demonstrated transistor. 		"Stretched" Silicon for 35% performance gain   	Storage6 		TravelStar HDs - best laptop HDs (these things are = amazing) 		Microdrive HDs4 		"Pixie Dust" promises 4x improvement in HD density    D More proof that IBM isn't sclerotic?  They are the dominant ServicesH and Consulting vendor in the world.  You know, where Compaq want's to beI now?  IBM didn't used to be so big in Services and Consulting, passing uph  EDS and others a few years back.  E Now, who is it that has MORE vision than IBM?  Maybe they aren't thattG quick to react, but it's hard to move fast when you are the biggest.  InF think they do a really good job of being fast while being the biggest.  , >Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2?  C OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured unbelievable =a resources=20E into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut. =20oJ Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if they saw the=20/ writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.-   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.com=20   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:14:25 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>N1 Subject: RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  J I have to agree here.  OS/2 was clearly superior to its competitors at theH time of its birth (and of its death).  It died because microshaft, afterL abandoning it, convinced the world to wait for their next release... no, theH one after that... err... maybe next time, which would do everything that OS/2 did, only better.  + I don't believe NT is that far along yet...a  J Care to take bets on how long until somebody mentions SUVs, ozone, nuclear power, or nazis?   Regards,   Christ  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developero Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");t '   t   > -----Original Message-----> > From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com [mailto:jordan@lisa.gemair.com]  7 > OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured a > unbelievable resources nE > into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut.  d= > Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if s > they saw the a1 > writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:34:12 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?aL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2506011434120001@user-2ivebei.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <2F2s0CC1H71c@eisner.encompasserve.org>,l. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  . > In article <9h7m4o$c0i@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,4 mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > I > > Assuming for the minute that there's any truth to Compaq's "port VMS"nO > > statement then you can can damn well bet the farm that the ONLY Intel basedr4 > > machines it will run on will be sold by Compaq.  > H > Actualy the size of the changes needed to get on an Intel architectureJ > may be so big that this may be the opportunity to re-engineer the deviceI > driver and printer symbiont design so that support of popular but shortn( > lived peripherals will become cheaper.  > I don't see what's wrong with either the driver or the printerJ architecture. Reengineering the driver design might ripple throughout VMS.  nJ > A device driver is already something that plugs into the VMS kernel, howH > about something that plugs into a port driver to provide disk specificF > data so that lots of USB or Firewire disks can readly operate?  (And9 > the plugins downloadable from Compaq's handy web site.)l  D They already have such a design for SCSI, don't they?  I thought theI port/class driver separation does most of what you suggest.  Lots of SCSIhF port drivers, one SCSI disk driver.  Any SCSI disk within a wide range works.  What's the problem?d  ? What they can do for SCSI, they can do for USB and/or firewire.   ' Downloadable stuff is another question.n   > A > A plug in for printer symbionts so the latest HP printer can bef* > supported within days instead of months?  J The latest HP printer isn't supported in days on any platform.  Someone isE working on the drivers ahead of time.  And many configurations aren'tVE "supported" once the 90-day waranty expires.  How's the support for aa# 3-year-old printer on windows 2000?   M If you only allow "days" worth of effort, you'll get "days" worth of quality.e   -- 0 Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:35:59 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>a1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?hD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251532000.16346-100000@world.std.com>  ! On 25 Jun 2001, Bob Kaplow wrote:r  \ > In article <lpi9jt472dsbotidin25o0e73e4k55ejmb@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes:' > > if the Intel buy of Alpha is true, l3 > > and by implication, eventually, OVMS/NSK/Tru64 o# > > IA64 porting efforts, I wonder:R > > , > > What hdw/PAL features might need adding - > > to IA64 in order that it would play well - > > with OVMS/NSK? > > 4 > > how long it might take for a IA64 OVMS to reach + > > performance parity, with an Alpha OVMS.j > K > Not long at all, since Intel will no doubt pull the plug on further Alphae > development.  F The Omega for Alpha is the second-generation EV7 and the Marvel/Raptor? platforms. The EV8 team is Inside Intel as of today. Intel willsH incorporate lockstepping, possibly SMT and glueless SMP techhnology, and1 other Alpha goodies into post-McKinley IPF chips.a  D The folks designing the Marvel followon (a truly massive system) are@ already making the requisite changes to base the system on IA-64 "Alpha-Inside" processors. e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:56:59 GMTg- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?eD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251552460.16346-100000@world.std.com>  4 On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com wrote:  2 > On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:13:57 -0400, "Neil Rieck" > <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote:n > H > >Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? Let's hope this is only a rumor! > >i* > >http://www.theinquirer.net/22060101.htm > >m
 > >Neil Riecka  > >Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > >Ontario, Canada.I$ > >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > 9 > so..., in theory, in 4-5 years, we might able to buy a s8 > DELL (or IBM) IA64 server to run VMS on ... go figure.    0 Exactly. (Couldn't say that until this morning.)   > 1 > I would've liked to see a commitment as far as  1 > EV8, to raise the bar for IA64 to meet/exceed, 1 > if nothing else.    eI  A variety of factors (the planned Alphabetization of Himalaya and design1J issues for the post-Marvel server being among them) influenced the timing.  E Intel's acquisition of the EV8 team implicitly raises the bar--or theeE expected performance--of post-McKinley chips as they will incorporatei Alpha technology.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:12:32 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>21 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?a( Message-ID: <9h85p4$era$1@pyrite.mv.net>  - "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message 0 news:1010625091652.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com...' > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Bill Todd wrote:n >9 > > 1 > > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messagen4 > > news:1010624234351.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com...& > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, mulp wrote: > > >i > > > >35 > > > > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messages8 > > > > news:1010623234633.38769B-100000@Ives.egh.com...I > > > > > If VMS is ported to IA64, I would expect Compaq to do as good ac jobAL > > > > > of ensuring compatibility as DEC did with the Alpha port.  If they do,t > > > >aD > > > > Why would you expect that?  Are you unaware of the number of	 engineerstI > > > > laidoff in the past 7-8 years, the number of key people that haver left,p > > ofH > > > > the number of products sold off (to be abandoned/milked), of the nuberw > > ofL > > > > people who left vms related product work to work on Windows or unix. > > >hJ > > > Historical precedent.  What evidence do you have that they won't?  II > > > don't know the numbers of engineers who have left.  Do you?  Why ifrI > > > you think these numbers are relevent don't you post them instead of-D > > > asking me for them?  I think you are talking through your hat.G > > > Do you have inside information that Alpha is actually going to bel1 > > > sold, or are you just spreading fertilizer?t > >MH > > You might want to consider that the source is someone who has workedG > > intimately in and/or with DEC (and more recently the DEC portion of  Compaq)oE > > central engineering - RSX, then VMS, then both VMS and Unix - fornL > > approximately 25 years.  I don't know whether he has absolutely accurateK > > numbers to give you, but he sure as hell is in a position to reel off ao list% > > of most of the significant names.n > >i
 > > - bill >oE > I gathered that he was a long-time DEccie from his other posts, butbD > a) he didn't say so and b) I can't recall ever having heard of himB > before yesterday.  So as far as I'm concerned, he has zero track	 > record.h >IE > Plenty of other people claiming to know everything about everything-E > have popped up on this newsgroup in the past, and many of them havec& > turned out to be nothing but trolls.  E That still doesn't keep you from looking like an arrogant idiot when,.E lacking any factual information yourself, you incorrectly assume thatbE someone who makes a statement that doesn't fit your preconceptions isr equally clueless.e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:12:01 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?e, Message-ID: <3B37A917.7C29DA5D@videotron.ca>   Terry C Shannon wrote:G > Intel's acquisition of the EV8 team implicitly raises the bar--or theoG > expected performance--of post-McKinley chips as they will incorporateg > Alpha technology.     L This is something which I do not quite understand. Are employees slaves withL contracts forcing them to work for Intel now that Compaq has donated them to Intel ?n  L Won't head hunters be pursuing every single Alpha engineer and trying to getK them jobs anywhere  but at Intel ? In the end, how what percentage of Alphaa) engineers will accept to work for Intel ?g  N I can understand transfering employees that works at the FAB plant since it isL the asset (FAB plant) which si sold and employees come with it.  But in thisK case, Compaq seems to be selling its employees' brains which are not assetsa owned by Compaq.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:03:00 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>h1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?y+ Message-ID: <3B37A704.7B1BCE7@infopuls.com>i   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Christof Brass wrote:M< > > Do you really trust the people at Compaq? Are there some@ > > decisions of strategic importance lately that show that this? > > company is acting according to a well thought through plan?u > K > Compaq has developped a privileged relationship with Microsoft. They wereuJ > alone to support MS during antitrust trial. And they succeeded in makingP > PocketPc a success where others had previously failed, giving Compaq a certainK > amount of time of exclusive licensing for PocektPc for keyboardless PDAs.r > K > That relationship is too important for Compaq to jeoperdize it by pushinga > competing products.s > K > Microsoft realises that NT isn't quite ready for prime time, so it allowsmN > Compaq to keep the mission critical stuff on Tandem and what is left of VMS.O > And it is to Microsoft's advantage to have Compaq retain these customer untila7 > NT is ready otherwise those customers will go to Sun.( > O > Dell can't bring customers to Microsoft. Only Compaq can deliver the types ofiN > customers that Microsoft doesn't yet have. MS knows it can't count on IBM toG > deliver mission critical customers to NT. But it can count on Compaq.s > M > Think of it this way: Compaq donates Alpha to Intel. Intel starts to add to P > IA64 what it takes to port NSK and VMS. But in doing so, it also enables NT toO > take advantage of those features and also provide fault tolerant features. So O > donating Alpha and Alpha engineers to Intel will allow intel to shape IA64 soiK > that NT can also become more fault tolerant and eventually take over from'' > customers who were on Tandem and VMS.a > O > So essentially, Compaq's job is to keep VMS and NSK customers locked in until 7 > NT is ready for prime time. That is the way I see it.f > ; > It will be a fight between Compaq-Microsoft, IBM and SUN.   = Brilliant analysis from what we can conclude that Compaq will-; not sell VMS to a company which has the slightest chance toP? actually *use* VMS as "weapon". Compaq will retain VMS and milkl? the customers as strongly as possible without driving them away4 to SUN.0  < I'm not sure that NT can be fixed. We had this discussion in? this NG already: something can't be efficiently added later buts? must be designed-in from the first. If we take into account then? lousy quality assurance at Micro$hit (e.g. a security patch fore@ IIE IIRC killed the program unconditionally, i.e. they had never; ran this piece of SW) and their improper and outdated toolsu8 (like C) there is not much to be frightened. .NET is the; stupidest thing ever invented (in fact it's not a Micro$hito" invention but they screwed it up).  ; What do you expect from a company famous for creating BASICh& interpreters and some office products?  > If you look at the open source competition the market pressure@ on NT has severely increased and Micro$hit already show effects.9 Besides the quality open source will be a major force wrt07 security. I'm personally sure that within 5 to 10 years:8 depending on the type of SW there will only open source.  8 The days of Micro$hit are over. The question is will VMS survive?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:54:51 +0200n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?t, Message-ID: <3B37B32B.E8B44081@infopuls.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:M > . > In article <3B364CE6.14193DE2@infopuls.com>,- > Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:t > >JF Mezei wrote: > >> > >> Dirk Munk wrote: M > >> > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. IttM > >> > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generate H > >> > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget that; > >> > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. ./ > >>S > >> A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 millioneQ > >> bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going toiH > >> come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year. > >>P > >> Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster than7 > >> the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64).B > >>E > >> And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as a S > >> Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the wayS5 > >> of its three-some relationship with its masters.o > >>O > >> And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seali% > >> Compaq's faith as an NT company.a > >>Q > >> In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM were Q > >> to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Inteln5 > >> buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can.J > >l@ > >Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. NoA > >useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow ands+ > >visionless company - the least VMS need.  > >y > C > I've often suspected you are out of touch with reality, but now Ir > know you are waay out there.   Si tacuisses ...  ( > Let's see, useful SW developed by IBM: > . >         DB/2     - performance leading RDBMS; >         ViaVoice - arguably the best voice recognition SWa2 >         MQSeries - best queueing architecture SWK >         Important Linux enhancements like Journaling FS (many other Linux  >         enhancements).  >         Best JIT Java compiler@ >         WebSphere - arguably best integrated Web product suite  ; Useless piece of shit. I know of several projects that onlyi< "work" (sort of) because many (really many) IBM "consultant"3 work on the project. Never mention this crap again.t  C >         Lotus Domino - developed after they bought Lotus.  Widely A >                 regarded as the best Web-based collaboration SWy  ; You obviously don't seem to know yet which company is still ( developing Notes ... (no it's *not* IBM)  > Given these gross errors I'm not inclined to discuss the other: SW pieces. I also doubt that you really understood my post9 (maybe some other posts also) because you are listing HW.i  I > Oh the hardware side, it's again, too long a list, but some highlights:n >  >         Semiconductor tech.e >                 Copper) >                 worlds-best lithography 8 >                 worlds-fastest demonstrated transistor> >                 "Stretched" Silicon for 35% performance gain >  >         StoragegM >                 TravelStar HDs - best laptop HDs (these things are amazing)e  >                 Microdrive HDsD >                 "Pixie Dust" promises 4x improvement in HD density > F > More proof that IBM isn't sclerotic?  They are the dominant ServicesJ > and Consulting vendor in the world.  You know, where Compaq want's to beK > now?  IBM didn't used to be so big in Services and Consulting, passing upi" > EDS and others a few years back.  9 Band waggon effect. Do you really understand what you arez@ talking about? Have you ever set up a business relationship with= IBM under current economical constraints? The work IBM peopler; deliver is more than miserable. I could list some very well\7 known Web sites that have been developed by IBM and arem8 served/maintained by them. To say the least: close to be= useless, slow, buggy, badly designed both from an ergonomicaln> point of view but also from an aesthetical point of view - and; BTW their Web sites aren't really available at some time ath9 night - ever heard of Internet and 24 hours availability?n  = IBM offers mediocre service for outstanding rates to managers-? that aren't responsible for the money they spent, mostly publici; institutes etc.. Do you remember the IBM performance at the  Atlanta Olympic Games? Do you?  G > Now, who is it that has MORE vision than IBM?  Maybe they aren't that I > quick to react, but it's hard to move fast when you are the biggest.  IvH > think they do a really good job of being fast while being the biggest.   Steve Jobs.x  . > >Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2? > M > OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured unbelievable resourcesnC > into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut. I > Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if they saw thee1 > writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.u >  > -Jordan Hendersont > jordan@greenapple.comy  > It seems that we have  a misunderstanding as to the meaning of: the word "vision". You seem to regard it like something as> prophecy or beeing able to view into the future. I don't agree= on that definition. And BTW OS/2 was ruined besides others bys> IBM's marketing. They even didn't allowed Lotus do implement a8 Notes client when they had bought that company. Any more examples necessary?i  6 Sorry, I observed that you get from time to time posts> questioning your knowledge of facts. I wouldn't go that far as@ you did in the first sentence of your post where you rated me as@ beeing out of touch with reality. But it seems that you are very> bad informed on the topics you accidentally decided to talk to me.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:02:54 +0200k) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B37B50E.BF137CAC@infopuls.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > \ > In article <0ukejtoh2uqhlc8c97lmv8n02ps5b15utt@4ax.com>, LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com writes: > : > > so..., in theory, in 4-5 years, we might able to buy a: > > DELL (or IBM) IA64 server to run VMS on ... go figure. > G > Nobody promised that, just like VMS does not support Alphas from API.r > 2 > > I would've liked to see a commitment as far as2 > > EV8, to raise the bar for IA64 to meet/exceed, > > if nothing else. > 7 > If EV8 were late, it would be costly with no benefit.-  < If a design is late there are reasons for that. This isn't a> stroke of fate out of the blue. And even that could be managed> by a good project organisation. Given the quality of the Alpha> design team the reasons that the design was/is late are simply@ management of resources, of specifications and of targets. If we? look back we know why EV7 is that late. And adding lockstep wasb? a complete waste of time if we take into consideration that theN@ NSK/Himalya MIPS version will be extended until the IA63 port is	 finished.u  : Looking at the VMS team there is the same mismanagement of? resources, specifications and targets. DII COE is a no brainer.r< Migrating to IA63 now is a no brainer. I stop better now ...  L > If successor IA64 chips are late or underperformant, Compaq can sell EV7s.  7 They don't have a choice because they made it that way.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:21:51 +0200n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?g, Message-ID: <3B37B97F.E986D610@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: > L > I have to agree here.  OS/2 was clearly superior to its competitors at theJ > time of its birth (and of its death).  It died because microshaft, after  > He, he, don't call the zombies dead! There are more OS/2 users! out there than VMS boxes running.w  N > abandoning it, convinced the world to wait for their next release... no, theJ > one after that... err... maybe next time, which would do everything that > OS/2 did, only better.  ? The architecture of OS/2 had at least at a certain level a veryn9 modern aproach, the workbench or workplace shell (I don'tt> remember clearly) was oo. But the design underneath was rather? outdated and tied to the 80286 protected mode operating scheme.n  - > I don't believe NT is that far along yet...h  @ I might be that the kernel of NT if really strongly influence by= Dave Cuttler is better than the kernel of OS/2. Technically In@ would agree if someone stated that at the services level OS/2 is= "better" than WNT. But the aesthetical design IBM enforced on  OS/2 is a pain in the arse.   < And because there is this strange statement at the end still> around: IBM failed miserably if they couldn't enlarge the OS/2: user base enough with their own customers alone to get the= necessary market share. This is an example of IBM acting veryt clueless with many respects to.t  L > Care to take bets on how long until somebody mentions SUVs, ozone, nuclear > power, or nazis? > 
 > Regards, >  > Chriso > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developerl > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");. > '  >  >  > > -----Original Message-----@ > > From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com [mailto:jordan@lisa.gemair.com] > 8 > > OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured > > unbelievable resourcesE > > into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut.M> > > Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if > > they saw the3 > > writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.9   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:28:11 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?h3 Message-ID: <$DMN93zZyg0N@eisner.encompasserve.org>?  X In article <3B37B50E.BF137CAC@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  8 >> If EV8 were late, it would be costly with no benefit. > > > If a design is late there are reasons for that. This isn't a@ > stroke of fate out of the blue. And even that could be managed@ > by a good project organisation. Given the quality of the Alpha@ > design team the reasons that the design was/is late are simply< > management of resources, of specifications and of targets.  E You are oh, so right.  The EV8 team is the successor to the EV6 team,y9 and we all know how the release of EV6 was right on time.i  M >> If successor IA64 chips are late or underperformant, Compaq can sell EV7s.d > 9 > They don't have a choice because they made it that way.   B You miss the point.  There will be buyers (even for Unix) if IA-64+ fails to improve performance significantly.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:32:51 GMT 0 From: "P. Thompson" <thompson-nospam@new.rr.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?,I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0106251729180.6265-100000@malacandra.localnet>t  F I suppose I would be more worried if IBM had purchased Alpha, at leastI from a VMS standpoint.  They have less of an interest in OpenVMS or Tru64cH than Intel at least from a competing OS perspective.  That would make meG very worried in IBM's long term interest in Alpha.  Intel won't care asc" long as it runs on their hardware.  ' On 25 Jun 2001, Jordan Henderson wrote:p  . > In article <3B364CE6.14193DE2@infopuls.com>,- > Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:t > >JF Mezei wrote: > >> > >> Dirk Munk wrote:nM > >> > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. IteM > >> > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generateeH > >> > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget that; > >> > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. .. > >>S > >> A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 milliondQ > >> bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going totH > >> come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year. > >>P > >> Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster than7 > >> the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64).c > >>E > >> And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as aoS > >> Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the way 5 > >> of its three-some relationship with its masters.e > >>O > >> And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seale% > >> Compaq's faith as an NT company.n > >>Q > >> In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM wereaQ > >> to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Intely5 > >> buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can., > >u@ > >Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. NoA > >useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and3+ > >visionless company - the least VMS need.o > >  > C > I've often suspected you are out of touch with reality, but now Iq > know you are waay out there. >s( > Let's see, useful SW developed by IBM: >s' > 	DB/2     - performance leading RDBMSl4 > 	ViaVoice - arguably the best voice recognition SW+ > 	MQSeries - best queueing architecture SWyD > 	Important Linux enhancements like Journaling FS (many other Linux > 	enhancements).k > 	Best JIT Java compiler 9 > 	WebSphere - arguably best integrated Web product suite < > 	Lotus Domino - developed after they bought Lotus.  Widely3 > 		regarded as the best Web-based collaboration SWa >oI > Oh the hardware side, it's again, too long a list, but some highlights:s >a > 	Semiconductor tech.
 > 		Copper > 		worlds-best lithography * > 		worlds-fastest demonstrated transistor0 > 		"Stretched" Silicon for 35% performance gain >v
 > 	Storage? > 		TravelStar HDs - best laptop HDs (these things are amazing)h > 		Microdrive HDs6 > 		"Pixie Dust" promises 4x improvement in HD density >O > F > More proof that IBM isn't sclerotic?  They are the dominant ServicesJ > and Consulting vendor in the world.  You know, where Compaq want's to beK > now?  IBM didn't used to be so big in Services and Consulting, passing upn" > EDS and others a few years back. >dG > Now, who is it that has MORE vision than IBM?  Maybe they aren't thateI > quick to react, but it's hard to move fast when you are the biggest.  IeH > think they do a really good job of being fast while being the biggest. >i. > >Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2? >oM > OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured unbelievable resourcesmC > into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut. I > Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if they saw the 1 > writing was on the wall and abandoned it early.i >s > -Jordan Henderson  > jordan@greenapple.comh >w >a   -- u* Leave the nospam in, correct email address   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:18:26 -0400p  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?h6 Message-ID: <1010625185130.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Bill Todd wrote:d   > / > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messaget2 > news:1010625091652.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com...) > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Bill Todd wrote:h > >. > > >c3 > > > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messaget6 > > > news:1010624234351.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com...( > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, mulp wrote: > > > >i	 > > > > >t7 > > > > > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messagee: > > > > > news:1010623234633.38769B-100000@Ives.egh.com...K > > > > > > If VMS is ported to IA64, I would expect Compaq to do as good ae > jobsN > > > > > > of ensuring compatibility as DEC did with the Alpha port.  If they > do,s	 > > > > > F > > > > > Why would you expect that?  Are you unaware of the number of > engineerssK > > > > > laidoff in the past 7-8 years, the number of key people that have  > left,r > > > ofJ > > > > > the number of products sold off (to be abandoned/milked), of the > nuber  > > > ofN > > > > > people who left vms related product work to work on Windows or unix. > > > >4L > > > > Historical precedent.  What evidence do you have that they won't?  IK > > > > don't know the numbers of engineers who have left.  Do you?  Why if K > > > > you think these numbers are relevent don't you post them instead of F > > > > asking me for them?  I think you are talking through your hat.I > > > > Do you have inside information that Alpha is actually going to beh3 > > > > sold, or are you just spreading fertilizer?e > > >hJ > > > You might want to consider that the source is someone who has workedI > > > intimately in and/or with DEC (and more recently the DEC portion ofy	 > Compaq)aG > > > central engineering - RSX, then VMS, then both VMS and Unix - formN > > > approximately 25 years.  I don't know whether he has absolutely accurateM > > > numbers to give you, but he sure as hell is in a position to reel off a/ > list' > > > of most of the significant names.e > > >i > > > - bill > >wG > > I gathered that he was a long-time DEccie from his other posts, butsF > > a) he didn't say so and b) I can't recall ever having heard of himD > > before yesterday.  So as far as I'm concerned, he has zero track > > record.o > >fG > > Plenty of other people claiming to know everything about everythingiG > > have popped up on this newsgroup in the past, and many of them haveo( > > turned out to be nothing but trolls. > G > That still doesn't keep you from looking like an arrogant idiot when,fG > lacking any factual information yourself, you incorrectly assume thatuG > someone who makes a statement that doesn't fit your preconceptions is  > equally clueless.t >  > - bill  D Who is the arrogant idiot?  I said that either Compaq has to provideB migration tools at least as good as DEC provided for VAX->Alpha orD they are toast.  mulp (whoever he is) asked why I expected that they. would, snipping my paragraph in half to do it.  E I never claimed to have factual information about DEC/Compaq layoffs,uG just a perspective as a customer.  (Who is *ALWAYS* right?!)  mulp did S9 claim to have factual information, but didn't provide it.S  D Of course, you snipped all that from your replies without indicatingC any snippage.  You did this twice, when you followed up my original F reply to mulp, and again in this reply to me.  You can prove anything E with selective quoting, thus indicating your position on the arrogantI idiot scale.   -- e John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 19:41:58 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)t1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? * Message-ID: <9h8i86$af0$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <3B37B32B.E8B44081@infopuls.com>,+ Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:) >Jordan Henderson wrote: >> m/ >> In article <3B364CE6.14193DE2@infopuls.com>,a. >> Christof Brass  <brass@infopuls.com> wrote: >> >JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>e >> >> Dirk Munk wrote:N >> >> > So let's hope that Compaq has more sense than selling of the Alpha. ItN >> >> > may generate money for the shareholders for now, but it can't generateI >> >> > money in future anymore either. Some managers seem to forget thatr< >> >> > customers pay you money, and you pay shareholders. . >> >>aT >> >> A big part of the announcement was that Compaq was going to spend $500 millionR >> >> bucks to buy service/solutions companies (guess where that money is going toI >> >> come from ????) and grow service/solutions revenus by 40% per year.c >> >>?Q >> >> Their bet is that they can grow the services/solutions business faster thanw8 >> >> the Alpha-based business will go away (VMS/Tru64). >> >> F >> >> And after the transformation, Compaq will be back to itself as aT >> >> Microsoft/Intel company with no pesky leftovers from Digital to get in the way6 >> >> of its three-some relationship with its masters. >> >>cP >> >> And when Capellas is booted out, Winkler will probably replace him to seal& >> >> Compaq's faith as an NT company. >> >>vR >> >> In the end, I would be much more happy if IBM were to buy Alpha. If IBM wereR >> >> to buy Alpha, it would be because IBM intends to make it succesful. If Intel6 >> >> buys Alpha, it is to burry it as fast as it can. >> >A >> >Sorry, IBM has no useful piece of SW developed by its own. NoaB >> >useful OS, no Server SW, no apps. IBM is a sclerotic, slow and, >> >visionless company - the least VMS need. >> > >> pD >> I've often suspected you are out of touch with reality, but now I >> know you are waay out there.a >h >Si tacuisses ...  >e) >> Let's see, useful SW developed by IBM:E >> o/ >>         DB/2     - performance leading RDBMSr< >>         ViaVoice - arguably the best voice recognition SW3 >>         MQSeries - best queueing architecture SWlL >>         Important Linux enhancements like Journaling FS (many other Linux >>         enhancements).u! >>         Best JIT Java compileroA >>         WebSphere - arguably best integrated Web product suite  >a< >Useless piece of shit. I know of several projects that only= >"work" (sort of) because many (really many) IBM "consultant"w4 >work on the project. Never mention this crap again. >   B How incredibly dismissive of you.  Software that's widely regardedB as best-in-class or nearly is relegated to "Useless piece of ..." 6 status by that great Industry Observer Christof Brass.  @ I'll mention the above portfolio again and ask you, who has moreB "vision" (this thing that you won't define but insist that I don't5 understand) in as many areas of Software development?a  D >>         Lotus Domino - developed after they bought Lotus.  WidelyB >>                 regarded as the best Web-based collaboration SW >o< >You obviously don't seem to know yet which company is still) >developing Notes ... (no it's *not* IBM)r >i  K IBM folded Lotus into their overall software marketing strategy long ago.   # The current Lotus CEO is an IBM'er.-  H At least you should give IBM credit for buying and cultivating Lotus, ifE you think there's anything there worthwhile...  Buying and developing I good brands is hardly what you would expect of a slow, sclerotic company.   ? >Given these gross errors I'm not inclined to discuss the otherm; >SW pieces. I also doubt that you really understood my posty: >(maybe some other posts also) because you are listing HW. >sJ >> Oh the hardware side, it's again, too long a list, but some highlights: >> s >>         Semiconductor tech. >>                 Copper * >>                 worlds-best lithography9 >>                 worlds-fastest demonstrated transistor ? >>                 "Stretched" Silicon for 35% performance gaina >> g >>         StorageN >>                 TravelStar HDs - best laptop HDs (these things are amazing)! >>                 Microdrive HDsrE >>                 "Pixie Dust" promises 4x improvement in HD densityt >> d    I I notice you completely skipped over the world-beating HW technology that  IBM develops.   G >> More proof that IBM isn't sclerotic?  They are the dominant ServiceseK >> and Consulting vendor in the world.  You know, where Compaq want's to beiL >> now?  IBM didn't used to be so big in Services and Consulting, passing up# >> EDS and others a few years back.f >e: >Band waggon effect. Do you really understand what you areA >talking about? Have you ever set up a business relationship with > >IBM under current economical constraints? The work IBM people< >deliver is more than miserable. I could list some very well8 >known Web sites that have been developed by IBM and are9 >served/maintained by them. To say the least: close to ben> >useless, slow, buggy, badly designed both from an ergonomical? >point of view but also from an aesthetical point of view - andt< >BTW their Web sites aren't really available at some time at: >night - ever heard of Internet and 24 hours availability? >e> >IBM offers mediocre service for outstanding rates to managers@ >that aren't responsible for the money they spent, mostly public< >institutes etc.. Do you remember the IBM performance at the >Atlanta Olympic Games? Do you?  >n  A Pretty old news.  I remember the Sydney Olympics and it was fine.tK I also think the Tennis sites are quite excellent.  The web was relatively aG young at Atlanta and they were trying to do things that had never been 'H done before, in terms of volume and content turnover.  Excuse a company F for taking risks, I guess...  Hardly a hallmark of a sclerotic firm to take risks and fail.  ? A lot of clients are unhappy with the service they get from biglD consulting firms.  I can tell you horror stories about them all, butE mediocre is defined by comparison with others.  What large consulting 1 firm consistently outperforms IBM on assignments?B  H >> Now, who is it that has MORE vision than IBM?  Maybe they aren't thatJ >> quick to react, but it's hard to move fast when you are the biggest.  II >> think they do a really good job of being fast while being the biggest.t >e >Steve Jobs. >t  H Oh, Steve Jobs is the biggest?  I didn't realize his turnaround of Apple had been so successful.t  H So, when I ask you who, as an organization, has more vision than IBM andF you come up with the one person who is synonymous with vision.  OK, soA perhaps Steve Jobs has more "vision" than IBM as an organization.\  I Now, what large IT companies have more vision, in as many fields, as IBM?-F Who does world beating hardware chip development, world class softwareE development (sorry, I mentioned those "pieces of crap" again...) AND  + widely recognized best-of-breed consulting?O  / >> >Would you like to be VMS IBM's second OS/2?g >> tN >> OS/2's failure wasn't a lack of vision.  They poured unbelievable resourcesD >> into OS/2 and just couldn't make it go against the MS juggernaut.J >> Vision would have been if they hadn't tried, or really, if they saw the2 >> writing was on the wall and abandoned it early. >> C >> -Jordan Henderson >> jordan@greenapple.com >$? >It seems that we have  a misunderstanding as to the meaning of1; >the word "vision". You seem to regard it like something ase? >prophecy or beeing able to view into the future. I don't agreec> >on that definition. And BTW OS/2 was ruined besides others by? >IBM's marketing. They even didn't allowed Lotus do implement a 9 >Notes client when they had bought that company. Any moren >examples necessary? >e  A Oh, yes, a Lotus client would have certainly saved OS/2.  Perhapsp@ that was IBM just showing sense in not throwing good money after@ bad.  Perhaps Lotus had a definite market strategy that required@ a certain number of realistic seats before investment.  Whatever? this "vision" thing means to you - you criticize my use withoutq; saying what it is you mean yourself - I doubt that it means 
 foolhardy.  7 >Sorry, I observed that you get from time to time postso& >questioning your knowledge of facts.   9 Mostly by Andrew Harrison.  I guess a man is known by hisa7 adversaries.  Questioning yes, substantiating a lack oft. attention to facts is something else entirely.  = I've observed that your judegement is often questioned.  But,1A it's irrelevant to this conversation what others have questioned.r@ It's just a silly debating technique you use because you've been: caught making an absurd statement about IBM being slow and< sclerotic that you can't back up with _facts_, just lot's of4 empty epithets like "pieces of shit" and "mediocre".  ? >                                     I wouldn't go that far as A >you did in the first sentence of your post where you rated me as1A >beeing out of touch with reality. But it seems that you are verye? >bad informed on the topics you accidentally decided to talk toe >me.  * Nothing accidental at all, all on purpose.   -Jordan Henderson> jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:58:20 -0400y' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?h< Message-ID: <howard-CA43D1.18582025062001@enews.newsguy.com>  3 In article <YmBnVR2kjRNs@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s;  kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:s  N > Surely there must be some chip vendor who could have supported and developedL > Alpha as a competitor to IA64, to the benefit of all. Anyone except AMD of) > course, which is where Palmer landed...   
 IBM, perhaps?/ -- ) Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:21:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?d, Message-ID: <3B37F1A3.F86126EF@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > You miss the point.  There will be buyers (even for Unix) if IA-64- > fails to improve performance significantly.u   Think about it.e  J NT and Linux and probably other flavours of unix will be available on IA64T from the get go. Compaq said it would take 4 years to get its systems switched over.  J Now, if the IA64 that supports VMS is late, and you have some company thatN need computers, will that company buy an Alpha with tru64 knowing it is a deadK end, or will they buy IA64 with Linux or some other falcour of Unix knowing - that platform is now stable for a long time ?   K For as long as VMS and Tru64 are in a state of flux, they will not gain newbE customers. The only alpha sales I see are exsiting sites needing more  computing power.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:26:17 -0400B- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? , Message-ID: <3B37F2C8.F908D9D3@videotron.ca>   "P. Thompson" wrote: > H > I suppose I would be more worried if IBM had purchased Alpha, at leastK > from a VMS standpoint.  They have less of an interest in OpenVMS or Tru64o7 > than Intel at least from a competing OS perspective. r  L However, look at motives. If IBM were to buy Alpha and VMS, they would do soM not to eliminate a competitor, but because they would see a good potential tosG develop the product. That is what they did to Lotus Notes for instance.p  K But to Intel, they don't care about acquiring Alpha for the potential AlphagJ sales, they care about getting the brains that developped Alpha as well asF access to the technologies in Alpha that Palmer hadn't yet given them.P Consider also Compaq donating the compiler expertise and technoologies to Intel.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:09:40 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)oG Subject: Compaq-Intel Contract Details (was: Question to Charlie Matco) 3 Message-ID: <6aG833tfYNAY@eisner.encompasserve.org>k  t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251911140.16249-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >  > , > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Warren Spencer wrote:  L >> Sounds like Intel finally found a way to buy the patents that it got its + >> hand smacked for violating 10 years ago.  >  > J > Indeed they did. Plus a heck of a lot of intellectual property developedB > subsequent to the Case of Pentium Pro and the Purloined Patents. > L > Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed, but suffice it to say that3 > Intel compensated CPQ for the assets in question.   @ Wouldn't that be enough money that it would have to show up on aC quarterly financial statement and the cat would be out of the bag ?.7 Or is it likely to be "discounts on future purchases" ?c   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:41:37 GMT4- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>n/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251440370.16346-100000@world.std.com>  / On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Peter L. Montgomery wrote:   . >      Go to www.compaq.com and search on ev7.@ > I get eight matches, five with revision dates of 24-June-2001. >     J >      Glancing at some of these, Compaq says they are committed to Alpha.; > But why did they need to revise so many documents Sunday?n  ( Because of this morning's announcement.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:01:55 GMT , From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth)/ Subject: Re: Compaq: 180 Days of Transformation 1 Message-ID: <slrn9jg592.d9g.jra@dorothy.msas.net>   B *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Robert Deininger turned    to Hawkeye and me and said:G > It's true that many compaq web pages always show the current date.  IWH > don't know whether that's a microsoft "feature", or a compaq corporate > rule.   C Well and good, but that doesn't support his assertion, either.  :-).   Cheers,o - jrav -- iN Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra@baylink.com) Member of the Technical Staff     Baylink / The Suncoast Freenet         The Things I Think N Tampa Bay, Florida        http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 804 5015  L    OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:49:01 -0400s( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com># Subject: Re: DECnet Phase IV routers+ Message-ID: <3B38143D.C3058C38@bigfoot.com>f   I stand corrected.   HM   Oswald Knoppers wrote: >  > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > >-J > > I believe it's normal to only see one adjacency.  This is based on theI > > costs set by the Cisco's on their interfaces when DECnet was enabled. K > > If your network people increase the cost of the one your seeing, highercJ > > than the other one, the other should become the new adjacency you see. > D > No it is the router priority. The one with the highest will be theI > designated router. If priorities are the same, the one with the highest " > address will be the one you see. >  > Oswald   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 12:58:15 -0700- From: merritt.robert@spsd.sk.ca (rob merritt)a0 Subject: DecTCP static route on vms for hobbists= Message-ID: <b6bf97d5.0106251158.4fb77f04@posting.google.com>o   Hi  9 I got my vax vms 72-1 hobbist CD and installed vms on my a> vax 4000 model 50 the question I have is when configuring the > tcp it wont let me configure routing (set a static route to my@ home Unix router/Nat(er)) so the ip operates on broadcast in itsB own subnet (192.168.0.0) is that by design so you cant get a free 5 router out of the deal? or am I doing something wrongf   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:32:22 GMTn$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>/ Subject: Re: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1n( Message-ID: <3B37F4C2.7D97FF3@wi.rr.com>  A People always yell at me when I question the wisdom of connectingr non-Compaq storage to G an OpenVMS system.  They always pound this line down my throat: "Compaq  and EMC will work-  together to resolve any issues."  H Call Compaq.  Log a call.  Report back when you have a working solution.C Then I'll stop questioning the use of EMC storage with VMS systems.a   -scott   Rob Johnson wrote:  4 > Does  anyone have the above configuration working?F > I have an ES40 with a KGPSA-CA connected to an EMC switch (16 port),E > which is then connected to an EMC (8430). The EMC is visible on therF > switch, as far as I know ( it appears in the nameserver gui, or if I > enter nsShow using telnet)E > but the VMS box just hangs when I try to boot it when it is pluggedeH > into the switch. (It'll boot OK when it isn't plugged into the switch)D > I've applied the FIBRE_SCSI patch, along with UPDATE,PCSI and SYS. >  > TIAa >y > Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:56:34 GMTp1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>bY Subject: Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line: n2 Message-ID: <3B37A684.BBD97812@clarityconnect.com>  3  BADLANADR,  bad LAN address form on line: 'string'c     Facility:     AMDS, DECamdsw  G   Explanation:  The DECamds security file parsing routine has uncoveredn af?       security triplet with a LAN address that it cannot parse.   G   User Action:  Edit either the Data Analyzer (AMDS$CONSOLE_ACCESS.DAT)w orA       the Data Provider (AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT) security file to>       correct the line.o     Piet Timmers wrote:b >  > $ @amds$startup restart  > I >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.eA > %AMDS-I-RMSHUT, stopping Data Provider processing for this nodet6 > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider shutdown successful > I >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.IB > %AMDS-I-RMSTART, starting Data Provider processing for this node7 > %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line: EIA0>. > %AMDS-I-LOADSECDB, loading security database5 > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider startup successfult > 3 > Any suggestion what this means, and how to solve?h >  > Greetings, >  > Piet Timmers   -- lD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:58:14 GMTh3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>  Subject: Re: f$getquia/ Message-ID: <3B377A9D.93906058@cableinet.co.uk>e  & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: >  > Antony Wardle wrote: > = > >Anyone got a quick com procedure that will look in a batche > >queue for a job call bob? > > : > >I am having problems getting my head around the various > >qualifiers. > >-I > >What I am trying to go is to figure out is if an entry is in the batchg- > >queue call bob, then don't submit another.m > E > So where are you in .au?  I'll write you a procedure for a beer :-)t > / > I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do.n > 3 > You can do something at DCL (in a .COM file) like>4 > $ show queue/batch/all/output=myfile.lis sys$batch > ( > You can then parse that file from DCL. > N > Alternatively, another solution was in a recent thread to re-submit from theK > COM file when it ran using (a partial answer) f$environment("procedure").d  E sure, but eventually something will happen to cause it to fail beforeuH resubmission, or the queue to get wedged, or whatever. Or you can end upG with two or more jobs running concurrently which can be worse that noneh at all.u  D IMHO F$GETQUI is the way to go, and yes it makes me crazy every timeH I have to print out all the arguements and work out what to do. VerifiedF output on all that looped code can get tiresome also. But you can get G hard info on your batch jobs in a supported manner. I can't imagine the H sort of code one would need to check for example if more than one job is@ executing by parsing the output from SHOW QUEUE/FULL. Well I can	 actually,  and it makes me cringe.o  F I have some code to write like this before the end of the week anyway,1 maybe I'll post it if its general purpose enough.e   regardsg   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:09:59 -0400t- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>c Subject: Re: f$getqui 4 Message-ID: <EUMZ6.256449$Z2.3000847@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  G "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nospam.optusnet.com.au> wrote in message < news:3b36e26f$0$25510$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...< > Anyone got a quick com procedure that will look in a batch > queue for a job call bob?  >w  K See if this does it for you. This is a section of sample code I wrote as an L example 4 or 5 years ago for some programmers. I never had any feedback from6 them saying it did not work so I assume that it did...  ! $ TYPE NO_RESUBMIT_JOB_NAME.COM;1s     $ TEMP = F$GETQUI("")I $! $! Look at ERNIE's queue first9 $ QNAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_QUEUE","ERNIE_SYS$BATCH","*")I $!> $! Loop through all jobs to find the JOB_NAME of the entry you
 $! are after.e $! $JLOOP1:C $ NOACCESS = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_INACCESSIBLE",,"ALL_JOBS"),+ $ IF NOACCESS .EQS. "TRUE" THEN GOTO JLOOP1i+ $ IF NOACCESS .EQS. "" THEN GOTO NEXT_QUEUE G $ JNAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_NAME",,"FREEZE_CONTEXT,ALL_JOBS") 7 $ IF "''JNAME'" .EQS. "THE JOB NAME" THEN GOTO HAVE_JOBl
 $ GOTO JLOOP1o $!1 $! Try the next queue if it wasn't found on ERNIEs $! $NEXT_QUEUE: $ TEMP = F$GETQUI("")t8 $ QNAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_QUEUE","BERT_SYS$BATCH","*") $JLOOP2:C $ NOACCESS = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_INACCESSIBLE",,"ALL_JOBS")d+ $ IF NOACCESS .EQS. "TRUE" THEN GOTO JLOOP2 . $ IF NOACCESS .EQS. "" THEN GOTO JOB_NOT_FOUNDG $ JNAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_NAME",,"FREEZE_CONTEXT,ALL_JOBS")t7 $ IF "''JNAME'" .EQS. "THE JOB NAME" THEN GOTO HAVE_JOB 
 $ GOTO JLOOP2  $! $!0 $! The job was not in either queue so submit it. $! $JOB_NOT_FOUND:a $!$ $ SUBMIT *******/NAME="THE JOB NAME" $! $ EXIT $!
 $HAVE_JOB: $!5 $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "The job is already in the queue."l $!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:32:41 -0500i% From: "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net>r Subject: First lost sale5 Message-ID: <i5VZ6.12778$j02.185386@news.goodnet.com>   J VAX upgrade, single node to 2-node Alpha SCSI cluster, supporting a CA appI and custom code.  Quotes were going out this Friday,  with a certainty ofoD one or another option being purchased.  Customer called with lots ofJ questions and angst, and stated upgrade on hold, probably dead, due to theL Compaq announcement and their management reaction to it.  This site had justK gotten its VMS confidence back up to reasonable levels, and the upgrade hadn, displaced previous plans to move to Solaris.  J I know two nodes and storage is a flyspeck to Compaq, but it was important to us.  Thanks a lot, Mikey C.   Sigh...s   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:25 CDTl' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)o Subject: Re: FORTRAN questionn- Message-ID: <25JUN200123255715@gerg.tamu.edu>s  1 Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> writes... H }If I use /OLD_F77 I do not get this error and I would like to bring the }syntax up to date if possible.a } " }            DO 115,J=NP0+1,NPARTS }................^B }%F90-E-ERROR, A branch to a do-term-shared-stmt has occurred fromJ }outside the range of the corresponding inner-shared-do-construct.   [115] }at line number 102 in filec }  }here is the code section: }  }          K=PART(14)e }          I=PART(15) ' }          IF(K.GT.18.AND.K.LT.22) THENt }            IDT0=RECORD(NP0)b }            IREC=0u" }            DO 115,J=NP0+1,NPARTS$ }            IF(RECORD(J).LT.0) THEN }              IREC=IREC+1# }              REC(IREC)=-RECORD(J)m }            ELSEc }              GOTO 120t }            END IFr }115         CONTINUE? } J }Is this funtionaly  equivalent  ie. removeal of 115 label and addition of
 }"END DO"?2 }================================================= }         DO J=NP0+1,NPARTSi" }          IF(RECORD(J).LT.0) THEN }          IREC=IREC+1 }          REC(IREC)=-RECORD(J)t }          ELSEn }          GOTO 120- }          END IFs }          END DOw }115         CONTINUEs  0 Probably. (Although you should indent better...)  G You should do a search on that source code for "115". There is probablygF another reference to it in there somewhere eaarlier than the DO. I hitH this while updating some software recently and it usually meant that notH only was there a loop that used the labled continue statement, but thereE was also a goto, or maybe an outer loop, that used the same statment.tB The way I fixed it was easy: I split the contine into two continueI statements, one right after the other, with different numbers and updatedwH one of the references. (A very stilly, if not downright stupid, thing to have to do - but there you go.)d  H This particular change to the compiler was clearly big a mistake. It notJ only doesn't do anything to help you, it actively hinders you. It would beK fine as a warning, but making it an error was an error. F77 had not troubleeH figuring out what you were trying to do, so why can't F90 figure it out?  F Unfortunately, Fortran has gone from being a well deisgned language toG a language designed by a comittee - half of whom seem to really want to0C turn it into C++ and the other half of whom seem to want to turn it E into something else (Pascal? SQL? beats me) and in the confusion they@F have implemented multiple inconsistent syntaxes and changed some stuffG that used to work just fine for no good reason. F90 isn't so bad - mosteG of this becomes evident when you look at F95 (if you do, you may notice F that it no longer looks like Fortran - it is not recognizably the sameC language unless you deliberately use only the Fortranesque parts of-B the language and syntax, ignoring the Whateverthehellesque parts).   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:06:54 -050021 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>. Subject: Re: FreeVMS' Message-ID: <3B377DBE.EDAA8878@fsi.net>g   BERTRAND Jol wrote: >  >         Good morning,l > @ >         I have seen an old project named FreeVMS. Its goal was< > to clone VMS with a Gnu Public Licence. This project seems; > to be dead. So I research anyone that has time to restarto > this project.a  H reading this thread is like Deja vu from the mailing list. I see now why it died birthing.o   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:06:11 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>M Subject: Re: FreeVMS, Message-ID: <3B37C3E3.33FF1DEB@infopuls.com>   Damien WYART wrote:e > = > * bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr (BERTRAND Jol) in comp.os.vms:  >  > > It was the mach kernel.o >  > Mmmm.h > F > > We can reuse a microkernel to begin (as Mach4 used in the previous > > FreeVMS project).  > G > Even if he misses some (important) points, Linus is not totally wronglH > when he says Mach is confusing and not-so-well designed. As a startingH > point for a new *good* (as a VMS clone shoud be) OS, I would not trust
 > it so much.d > -- > Damien WYART / dwyart@noos.fre  ? When did Linus say this? In early days he was a rather cluelessl9 developer and I rate him especially strong in management,g9 motivation and good behaviour but not at all in technical  matters.  9 I read an article about the Mach kernel which defended it @ against the argument of performance disadvantages because of the  dynamically loadable components.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:15:36 +0200a# From: Damien WYART <dwyart@noos.fr>- Subject: Re: FreeVMS) Message-ID: <9h8r89$1fv$1@quark.noos.net>-  5 * Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> in comp.os.vms:e  C > > Even if he misses some (important) points, Linus is not totallynB > > wrong when he says Mach is confusing and not-so-well designed.   > When did Linus say this?  4 <http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/18162.html>  D He also lengthly explains this (and many other things) in his recent book about the story of Linux.  A > I rate him especially strong in management, motivation and good 0 > behaviour but not at all in technical matters.  : Well, I wouldn't say he is a complete dummy... He might be$ ix86-oriented, but he is not a wimp.  G > I read an article about the Mach kernel which defended it against theeB > argument of performance disadvantages because of the dynamically > loadable components.  D Of course, Mach fans will say it's great, and monolitic kernels fansG will tell the opposite. I think the truth (if any) lies in between. ButnE Mach is far from perfect, and not a clean base to start a serious OS.m --   Damien WYART / dwyart@noos.fr0   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:35:13 -0700t% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>a Subject: FUD) Message-ID: <3B37D8C1.7817B9C4@rdrop.com>h  = Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thing A to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you'reh@ all doing his job for him, as usual.  What with Sun and layoffs,1 he may soon fear his own self becoming redundant.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:02:48 GMT(. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> Subject: Re: FUD: Message-ID: <c3SZ6.6016$P5.2403890@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  0 Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message# news:3B37D8C1.7817B9C4@rdrop.com...s? > Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingeC > to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you're B > all doing his job for him, as usual.  What with Sun and layoffs,3 > he may soon fear his own self becoming redundant.-  F He doesn't have to.  Perchance he is a gentleman and is wise enough to respect our mourning period?  1 Nah, I suspect we'll hear from him shortly... ;^)T   Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:17:33 -0400.5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 1 Message-ID: <AfLZ6.111$rc5.4409@news.cpqcorp.net>a  K >That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that Alpha 
 >does not?   Long term marketshare.  K Look.  I am an Alpha supporter.  I think that EV68 is the best processor on H the market today.  I think EV7 will be a kick-ass chip, and system.  TheJ Itanium has nothing on it.  Until recently, there was a strong question ofI if they would *ever* get IA64 to work well enough to be interesting.  ButeJ the recent benchmark numbers show that they willl be in the ballpark soon.  B So, project it out.  Sometime in the mid-late 2000's, IA64 is veryJ competetive with Alpha on performance, but with HP and Microsoft on it, itK sells many times more than Alpha.  The price is lower than Alpha.  Not only1I that, we don't have to build two seperate lines of HW for IA64 and Alpha.sK Lots cheaper.  Heck, *maybe*, just *maybe* it means that if we do it right, I we could put VMS on any Itanium box that we want to qual it on, includingt the "cheap" ones too.N  G I'm pretty sure we can pull thins thing off.  It's just a matter of how  easy/hard it will be.a        " Christopher Smith wrote in messageC <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FDD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>...  >, >> -----Original Message-----m= >> From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]n >4@ >> Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?  I think that >> in the grande@ >> scheme of things, you were buying OpenVMS for the things that >> it brings toe; >> the table... if we could build a VAX that was as fast as  >> Alpha - you'd still
 >> be on VAX.  >uK >That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that AlphaoK >does not?  I assume it should be significantly cheaper... I only hope thatsJ >there aren't holes in the design so large that even VMS engineering can'tL >work around them.  I do have lots of respect for the VMS engineering group. > < >> While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will >> have a chance tof) >> see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.  >,7 >I'll believe that when I see the platform become open.  >t	 >Regards,  >r >Chris >t" >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, ILi >s >/usr/bin/perl -e 's@ >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' >Y   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:29:46 -05002+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>o) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.:L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----< > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]   > Long term marketshare.   Good answer.  : > Itanium has nothing on it.  Until recently, there was a  > strong question of: > if they would *ever* get IA64 to work well enough to be  > interesting.  Buto> > the recent benchmark numbers show that they willl be in the  > ballpark soon.  F I wasn't aware that the prognosis had changed, actually, but that's an interesting note, too.  D > So, project it out.  Sometime in the mid-late 2000's, IA64 is very9 > competetive with Alpha on performance, but with HP and H > Microsoft on it, itd= > sells many times more than Alpha.  The price is lower than r > Alpha.  Not only< > that, we don't have to build two seperate lines of HW for  > IA64 and Alpha. > > Lots cheaper.  Heck, *maybe*, just *maybe* it means that if  > we do it right,N> > we could put VMS on any Itanium box that we want to qual it  > on, includinga > the "cheap" ones too.S  K Sounds like a chance for VMS to really compete again.  That will be welcome  if it turns out that way.i  < > I'm pretty sure we can pull thins thing off.  It's just a  > matter of howV > easy/hard it will be.j  F I guess the best thing to hope for now is that the Alpha has a maximumL amount of impact on future IA64 designs.  My next question is, what is thereG to stop that?  I assume that IA64, as it stands, has a lot of politicallH clout inside of Intel.  It must to have been so terribly bad before, and) still get development money pumped in. :)    Regards,   Chrisn  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  'I      ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:48:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.,, Message-ID: <3B378774.EB7997C7@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote:yL > Today's announcement says that there will be a "Full port of ... VMS .. to > Itanium ... starting now." . > L > That, to me, appears to be a fairly positive commitment to the longer term > future of VMS.  N 1- Alpha is dead as of TODAY. Who in their right mind will invest in a million? dollar wildfire system today knowing the architecture is dead ?(  J 2-With nobody buying Alpha systems, nobody will be buying VMS systems. VMSK revenus will dry up REAL FAST. Remember, it will take 4 (and knowing intel, G probably 8) years before IA64 has the bit in it to support VMS and morec? importantly NSK. Meanwhile, NT will happily chug along on IA64.   K 3- This means that Compaq is wasting money porting VMS to IA64 (the port is N probably just to save face). By the time VMS is ready on IA64, its market will be greatly diminshed.   N 4-The only way Compaq can offload their current stock of Alpha is to lower the9 prices WAY DOWN. I guess thsi is great news for hobyists.i  J In one feel swooop, Compaq has managed to kill the revival effort that hadK been made for VMS in the past year. The uncertainty over VMS that will last N many years will make sure VMS returns into major downsizing mode. I personallyL do not beleive that VMS will survive. (Sure, Compaq will continue to support0 it, but it will have fewer and fewer customers).   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 14:49:33 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen).) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.s3 Message-ID: <qYZHrtXcdKcD@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  \ In article <3B378774.EB7997C7@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  P > 1- Alpha is dead as of TODAY. Who in their right mind will invest in a millionA > dollar wildfire system today knowing the architecture is dead ?d  E Somebody who wants performance _today_ and has kept their source code. for a future port.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:44:37 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.sL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2506011444380001@user-2ivebei.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <UiKZ6.100$rc5.3751@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"C$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  ! > john nixon wrote in message ...UF > >I have finally, after 10 years or so of trying, finally prodded ourI > >development group (kicking and screaming)  into converting from VAX toOJ > >Alpha.  Last week, we ordered several Alpha's to replace our VAX 7860s.0 > >The conversion should be completed this year. > >_$ > >What a kick in the pants this is! > >O > >I hope I still have a job., > >I >  > F > For the next several years, Alpha is arguably the best HW available.D > Remember, we will continue and implement the EV7 family and systemH > platforms.  If you get from VAX to Alpha, the "port" to IPF should, weN > believe, be a recompile & relink.  It is also a 99.8% probability that there# > will be mixed cluster capability.F > L > >I hope Compaq starts yelling from the rooftops how quickly they will portE > >VMS to Itanium, and how easy the port from AlphaVMS  will be.  The-J > >competitors are already spreading the word that Alpha (and thus VMS) is > >dead. >  > M > Actually, the engineers here in Nashua seem, well, to be almost universallyoJ > positive about this.  At the same time as it was announced, we also wereL > told our headcount would increase by a number that we will be hard pressed+ > to find engineers to fill quickly enough.a > I > Having ported VMS once, we know we can do it again.  There will be somehL > challenges ahead, but we don't know of any show-stoppers.  We'll know justM > how "easy" it is in a little while.  The OS has some significant challenges K > that most user code doesn't know or care about (like the console program,  > etc).o  $ I like reading optimism from Nashua.  J I already look at the Compaq jobs on the openVMS portal.  There were stillE only 7 listed.  Will that job list recover some of it's former glory?r  H I'll keep asking, without expecting an answer.  Were you folks consulted- about this VMS porting project ahead of time?n   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comF   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:46:53 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.aL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2506011446540001@user-2ivebei.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleA <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FDD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,h, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:    L > That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that Alpha
 > does not?  D  J Competent management and marketing.  But alpha has had the best engineers.  G The best we can hope for is that intel uses the new people and propertyE! wisely, rather than burying them.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:28:16 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br=) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. L Message-ID: <OF9064BAD8.E7BF8B3A-ON03256A76.005FE5CF@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  G The company I am working for is / was planning to buy a GS machine (notT sure if will be 80 or 160).  " I believe the company will wait...   Everybody should wait ! !    Regi   FC        F "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> em 25/06/2001 14:05:36  A Favor responder a "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>D             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms      ) Assunto: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.n    H I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.I Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.  IeI believe that if you have gotten to Alpha, odds are it will be a recompile  and go.   J Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?  I think that in the grandJ scheme of things, you were buying OpenVMS for the things that it brings toF the table... if we could build a VAX that was as fast as Alpha - you'd stilld
 be on VAX.  J While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to& see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.      8 fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ...F >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.8 >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium. >eI >Bad point of view:   I believe a lot of customres will jump to long-timel >processorsm; >                                     as SPARC or Power PC.  > G >Good point of view:  I can improve my value $$$ in the market  becausee >OpenVMSK >                                       professionals will become much moreb >rares ..... >i >e >Regards >  >FCy >l >  >F >(J >John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> em 25/06/2001 10:18:02 >cE >Favor responder a John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>a >q >p >s >      Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >n >n >h& >Assunto: Full port of VMS to Itanium. >  >-K >Today's announcement says that there will be a "Full port of ... VMS .. to  >Itanium ... starting now." .p >f >nK >That, to me, appears to be a fairly positive commitment to the longer termA >future of VMS.  > 6 >The Powerpoint slides of the announcement are at URL: >o> >http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/download/webcast.ppt >L >n >Johns >oC >Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukrI >Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKgB >Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax) >b >J >y >m >  >p >w >d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:18:58 -0400t5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.t1 Message-ID: <99MZ6.117$rc5.4374@news.cpqcorp.net>o  % Robert Deininger wrote in message ...   I >I'll keep asking, without expecting an answer.  Were you folks consultedo. >about this VMS porting project ahead of time? >-    K Only a handful of very senior people, some of whom were *highly* technical,cJ were involved in the decision.  Oddly enough, the entire thing was startedD by a handful of our most senior technical HW people doing a analysisH projecting things out through the next 5-10 years.  It wasn't management pushing it down.  H But very few of the folks in the trenches, are told of this type thing - mostly for legal reasons.e  J We're digesting this, just like you are.  The good news is that we are all? pretty much looking at this as something pretty fun/cool to do.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:26:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.c, Message-ID: <3B379057.60AFC60F@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:1 > Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?i  J Combination of both which yielded the quality, stability and configuration options that gave VMS an edge.  N Consider who is left as VMS customers today. Consider stuff such as Wildfires,J and the special ALpha processors that allow wildfires, and the integrationL that allows Galaxy. These were made possible because Alpha was mature enoughK to acquire the features to do this. IA674 is an untested kid probably stillv* with math errors such as what Pentium had.  ! Andrew Harrisson, is Sun hiring ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:32:12 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>1) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.s, Message-ID: <3B3791B8.181D131E@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:H > platforms.  If you get from VAX to Alpha, the "port" to IPF should, weN > believe, be a recompile & relink.  It is also a 99.8% probability that there# > will be mixed cluster capability.n    K It isn't just a question of recompiling a product. It is also a question ofeC recertifying it, and duplicating/updating the support stuff such as L documentation, training support personel, updating customer database to knowN whether they run on the dead Alpha or the intel crap, providing multiple mediaH and making sure the customers get the right ones, and for every path youM issue, you have to do all that extra work too. It was bad enough that Digital-M failed in its transition of VAX->ALPHA (the fact that so many vaxes remain inwM production 10 years after is a testament to that failure, with demand for newhL VAXes continuing), but now you have a third platform to support on an anemic> operating system whose customers will be split on 3 platforms.    M > Actually, the engineers here in Nashua seem, well, to be almost universallynJ > positive about this.  At the same time as it was announced, we also wereL > told our headcount would increase by a number that we will be hard pressed+ > to find engineers to fill quickly enough.8  J You could hire all the Alpha engineers. I bet and I hope that many of them will refuse to work for Intel.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:22:11 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>H) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. / Message-ID: <tjf3qe90fdkc37@news.supernews.com>,  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B378774.EB7997C7@videotron.ca... > John Macallister wrote: K > > Today's announcement says that there will be a "Full port of ... VMS ..  to  > > Itanium ... starting now." . > >mI > > That, to me, appears to be a fairly positive commitment to the longer  term > > future of VMS. >TH > 1- Alpha is dead as of TODAY. Who in their right mind will invest in a million-A > dollar wildfire system today knowing the architecture is dead ?m >F  K What architecture would you suggest they buy?  IA64 isn't available.  SPARCoI looks like it's going to be the odd man out.  HP has announced the end ofn life for PA-RISC.,  L If you buy an Alpha, in 2004 you can bring an IA64 machine into the cluster,1 recompile and go.  That sounds pretty good to me.a  L > 2-With nobody buying Alpha systems, nobody will be buying VMS systems. VMSF > revenus will dry up REAL FAST. Remember, it will take 4 (and knowing intel,I > probably 8) years before IA64 has the bit in it to support VMS and moreoA > importantly NSK. Meanwhile, NT will happily chug along on IA64.  >l  L People have been claiming that VMS revenues were going to dry up "REAL FAST"1 for years, it hasn't happened and isn't about to.a  J > 3- This means that Compaq is wasting money porting VMS to IA64 (the port isK > probably just to save face). By the time VMS is ready on IA64, its markett will > be greatly diminshed.a >   L Are you suggesting that Compaq should abandon VMS?  What do you want them toF do?  They could spend Billions creating EV8, EV9 etc or spend Millions porting VMS to IA64.  L > 4-The only way Compaq can offload their current stock of Alpha is to lower theh; > prices WAY DOWN. I guess thsi is great news for hobyists.  >5L > In one feel swooop, Compaq has managed to kill the revival effort that hadH > been made for VMS in the past year. The uncertainty over VMS that will lastE > many years will make sure VMS returns into major downsizing mode. I 
 personallyF > do not beleive that VMS will survive. (Sure, Compaq will continue to supporti2 > it, but it will have fewer and fewer customers).  J Where's the uncertainty?  Yesterday I was wondering if Alpha would be ableK to survive and what would happen to VMS if it didn't, today I know what the?? future of VMS is.  And it looks brighter than it did yesterday.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:25:44 GMTn- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)c) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.i0 Message-ID: <3b378f71.12977230@news.process.com>  N On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:41:14 -0300, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  F >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.8 >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium. >aN As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsN from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasP trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closelyN to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilerH back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as aM recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to Alpha M wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEM L back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture, once GEM has been fixed.)h   That's what I hope, anyway.....t   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:35:13 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>t) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----, > From: John Vottero [mailto:John@mvpsi.com]  ? > Where's the uncertainty?  Yesterday I was wondering if Alpha   > would be able @ > to survive and what would happen to VMS if it didn't, today I  > know what the A > future of VMS is.  And it looks brighter than it did yesterday.m  I Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic being planned, wey% may see another VMS-capable notebook.s   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developeru Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");y 'x  u   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:32:42 GMT,- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley).) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.r0 Message-ID: <3b3791c1.13569551@news.process.com>  P On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:25:44 GMT, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) wrote:  ! >>That's what I hope, anyway.....\ >\? And has the caveat that VMS itself is running well on IA64. ;-)-   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/z9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:55:04 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. , Message-ID: <3B379713.80D0FC97@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > We're digesting this, just like you are.  The good news is that we are allA > pretty much looking at this as something pretty fun/cool to do.   M Until you realise that this decision will force most VMS customers to rething L their VMS investment and yo start seing VMS sales come to a scheeching halt.J And when Compaq's financials won't improve, cutbacks will have to be made.  M Anyways it is moot. Unless Compaq commits a massive marketing budget for VMS,w> VMS isn't strong enough to survive this period of uncertainty.  L I feel for the folks who had invested in Wildfires and will now have to look, at lower quality options in the longer term.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:01:14 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. , Message-ID: <3B379885.8ACAC737@videotron.ca>   John Vottero wrote:vM > What architecture would you suggest they buy?  IA64 isn't available.  SPARCSK > looks like it's going to be the odd man out.  HP has announced the end of  > life for PA-RISC.o  N They will just put their major purchases that are VMS related on hold. The big$ winners in this will be IBM and SUN.  N > If you buy an Alpha, in 2004 you can bring an IA64 machine into the cluster,3 > recompile and go.  That sounds pretty good to me.   I VMS was experiencing somewhat of a rebirth thanks to some tokem marketingeM efforts done last year. That momentum will now be lost. Do you think that anymH ISV who might have seen that rebirth as a sign to port their software toI Alpha-VMS will now bother porting ? No, he will also wait 4 more years atyM which point, it might be moot because interest in VMS will have gone down biga5 time because VMS will have been stagnant for 4 years.-    N > People have been claiming that VMS revenues were going to dry up "REAL FAST"3 > for years, it hasn't happened and isn't about to.F  M VMS revenus dried up sufficiently that Digital lost money BIG TIME for a longeL enough time that Digital has to give itseld away to a small PC company namedK Compaq. What is left is but justa small portion of what VMS used to be. Ande- this period of undertainty will not help VMS.e      N > Are you suggesting that Compaq should abandon VMS?  What do you want them toH > do?  They could spend Billions creating EV8, EV9 etc or spend Millions > porting VMS to IA64.  H Instead of cannabalising VMS and Alpha, Compaq should have sold it to anN outfit that wanted to make a go at it and compete against Intel and Microsoft.H Compaq has capitulated to Intel and Microsoft with today's announcement.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:52:53 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>P) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.e' Message-ID: <3B379695.F37FE317@fsi.net>t  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > G > I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.o9 > A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium.  > J > Bad point of view:   I believe a lot of customres will jump to long-time > processors< >                                      as SPARC or Power PC. > H > Good point of view:  I can improve my value $$$ in the market  because	 > OpenVMSuL >                                        professionals will become much more
 > rares .....s  E ...and OpenVMS jobs will become even more rare as customers flee from G such a flighty, uncommitted platform. VAX lived 20 years or more. AlphadD less than a decade. x86 and later - going strong since before Alpha.  E We could have been banging away at OpenVMS-Intel for a good number ofhE years already, and Billy would have had to displace those x86 servers  running it.   2 Sure glad I'm looking into another line of work...   --   David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:55:19 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.0' Message-ID: <3B379727.4B31D696@fsi.net>>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----> > > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com] > A > > Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?  I think thats > > in the grandA > > scheme of things, you were buying OpenVMS for the things thate > > it brings to< > > the table... if we could build a VAX that was as fast as > > Alpha - you'd still  > > be on VAX. > L > That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that AlphaL > does not?  I assume it should be significantly cheaper... I only hope thatK > there aren't holes in the design so large that even VMS engineering can'tnM > work around them.  I do have lots of respect for the VMS engineering group.e  D Have a read over on comp.sys.intel. Looks like Intel can't even work around the "holes" in Itanic.    -- l David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:00:00 -0400w5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.h1 Message-ID: <aLMZ6.119$rc5.4462@news.cpqcorp.net>i  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3B379057.60AFC60F@videotron.ca>...  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:n2 >> Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS? >MK >Combination of both which yielded the quality, stability and configurationr >options that gave VMS an edge.l >aD >Consider who is left as VMS customers today. Consider stuff such as
 Wildfires,K >and the special ALpha processors that allow wildfires, and the integrations >that allows Galaxy.  C Nothing in OpenVMS, or Galaxy, is Alpha-specific, except perhaps inoJ implementation.  With the Alpha design team going to Intel, I would not beI suprised to see things from EV7 and EV8 sneak into Itanium in the future.n  : > These were made possible because Alpha was mature enoughL >to acquire the features to do this. IA674 is an untested kid probably still+ >with math errors such as what Pentium had.J >     K We're pretty confident that by the time we get things ported, it will be inaI good shape, and EV7 systems will give us a good transition padding with as! high-performance Alpha swan-song.b  " >Andrew Harrisson, is Sun hiring ?   Sun is trying not to lay off.n   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:12:46 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.:2 Message-ID: <9h85vu$me8$2@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  1 In article <UiKZ6.100$rc5.3751@news.cpqcorp.net>,M8 	"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:! > john nixon wrote in message ...oE >>I have finally, after 10 years or so of trying, finally prodded our7H >>development group (kicking and screaming)  into converting from VAX toI >>Alpha.  Last week, we ordered several Alpha's to replace our VAX 7860s.e/ >>The conversion should be completed this year.j >># >>What a kick in the pants this is!e >> >>I hope I still have a job. >> >  > F > For the next several years, Alpha is arguably the best HW available.D > Remember, we will continue and implement the EV7 family and systemH > platforms.  If you get from VAX to Alpha, the "port" to IPF should, weN > believe, be a recompile & relink.  It is also a 99.8% probability that there# > will be mixed cluster capability.  > K >>I hope Compaq starts yelling from the rooftops how quickly they will porttD >>VMS to Itanium, and how easy the port from AlphaVMS  will be.  TheI >>competitors are already spreading the word that Alpha (and thus VMS) ise >>dead.  >  > M > Actually, the engineers here in Nashua seem, well, to be almost universallysJ > positive about this.  At the same time as it was announced, we also wereL > told our headcount would increase by a number that we will be hard pressed+ > to find engineers to fill quickly enough.o > I > Having ported VMS once, we know we can do it again.  There will be some6L > challenges ahead, but we don't know of any show-stoppers.  We'll know justM > how "easy" it is in a little while.  The OS has some significant challengesdK > that most user code doesn't know or care about (like the console program,  > etc).  >  >  >  >  >   L Speaking of porting...since Itanium is (technically) a commodity processor, @ what's the chance of an off-the-street Itanium box running VMS?   
 Brian Wheelert bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:07:11 -0500t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.-' Message-ID: <3B37A7FF.AF86F5A2@fsi.net>2   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----. > > From: John Vottero [mailto:John@mvpsi.com] > @ > > Where's the uncertainty?  Yesterday I was wondering if Alpha > > would be ablefA > > to survive and what would happen to VMS if it didn't, today Io > > know what the C > > future of VMS is.  And it looks brighter than it did yesterday.i > K > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic being planned, wei' > may see another VMS-capable notebook.u  ! Excellent bit of sunshine, Chris!o   -- t David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/g  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:24:02 -0500h* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.s- Message-ID: <0033000027504431000002L012*@MHS>e  " =0AI try to see things positively.  > 1) Port to Itanium =3D the long-awaited $1000 VMS desktop box.  ? 2) Adoption of the IBM model =3D real resources thrown into theyA    VMS ASP program.  You got ta have software to sell software...    WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETm% > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 5:16 PM-F > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ > Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.: >: >l > Christopher Smith wrote: > >g  > > > -----Original Message-----0 > > > From: John Vottero [mailto:John@mvpsi.com] > >rB > > > Where's the uncertainty?  Yesterday I was wondering if Alpha > > > would be ableoC > > > to survive and what would happen to VMS if it didn't, today I  > > > know what the E > > > future of VMS is.  And it looks brighter than it did yesterday.e > >i; > > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanica > being planned, we ) > > may see another VMS-capable notebook.i >o# > Excellent bit of sunshine, Chris!o >g > -- > David J. Dachteram > dba DJE Systemse > http://www.djesys.com/ >b< > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d >eH > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in posting= s  > is to be expected. >sB > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. >bH > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, ar= ei > strongly discouraged.m >=   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:49:23 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.g, Message-ID: <9h8bl3$o4v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  i In article <99MZ6.117$rc5.4374@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  >-K >We're digesting this, just like you are.  The good news is that we are all @ >pretty much looking at this as something pretty fun/cool to do.  K Let's hope "incredibly fast" is also in there somewhere.  The odds are verysM high that thanks to this announcement Compaq just kissed goodbye to at least eJ 80% of its OpenVMS sales for the rest of 2001 and beyond.  The money won'tB come back until people see that OpenVMS running on Intel works, isF reliable, has software to run on the new platform, has some modicum ofF real support from Compaq, and isn't insanely expensive to migrate to. J That's a tall order, but there's no way the bozos who run your company areN going to wait very long in the face of an extreme drop in product revenues for@ OpenVMS before they cancel the port.  And to shout the obvious:   1   ***COMPAQ MANAGEMENT WANTS THIS PORT TO FAIL***r  J That way they don't have to sell anything that competes with Microsoft. IfJ the OpenVMS group is extremely lucky Q management will _maybe_ give them aJ year before they pull the plug.  Terry has estimated in this forum that itB should take 18 months.   And I think Terry's estimate is probably G optimistic - given the size of the project doing it in 18 months would jH probably require that OpenVMS engineering was already geared up for the E port now, with compilers for the new platform for all languages _and_cI development hardware on hand. Do you have either?   When do you expect tor
 have either?    J After the lot of you (meaning OpenVMS Engineering) have taken a few weeks L to look over the options and considered carefully the real level of support H Compaq will provide, and also, critically, how this is going to turn outI for you all personally if/when Compaq management cancels the project, youoK may want to consider extreme action to protect yourselves (or if that isn'toH found to be possible, to at least go out with your heads held high.) ForJ instance, if after careful study you folks decide that you're being set upH for the fall, you could probably at least drag most of Compaq managementG down with you by going out on strike in the immediate future.  Or as a tK better result, you might be able to force Q management to guarantee in someyI non-negatable (contractual) way sufficient resources to complete the porteF or, to at least give the members of OpenVMS Engineering full rights toK OpenVMS and funds for a spin off if Compaq pulls the plug.  But for optimummF bargaining power such a strike must occur before the revenues start toJ fall.  Ie, very soon.   And if you strike, and they won't meet any of yourI demands, you'll have learned their true intentions before you all spent ao8 year or two killing yourselves to complete this port.     C Before anybody jumps on me for suggesting such a disruptive action,lK please keep in mind that at this point I'm concerned only about the welfare H of the folks in OpenVMS engineering.  They really need to think long andG hard about their personal stakes in this port, this company, and VMS inaK general, especially considering how Compaq management's "support" for Alpha K has turned out, and given its similar level of "support" for OpenVMS.  TheyoD really need to consider all their options at this point, and blindlyG following orders will turn out to be a poor choice if general Mike onlym  wanted them for cannon fodder.     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech TJ **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:00:25 -0500-+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> ) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.eL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  D Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who still wants an AlphaBook. :)   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developere Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i 'n  l   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]   > Christopher Smith wrote:  < > > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic  > being planned, wet) > > may see another VMS-capable notebook.a  # > Excellent bit of sunshine, Chris!o   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:20:11 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium..3 Message-ID: <M5w4fwiq2N$3@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  a In article <9h8bl3$o4v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: k > In article <99MZ6.117$rc5.4374@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  >>L >>We're digesting this, just like you are.  The good news is that we are allA >>pretty much looking at this as something pretty fun/cool to do.C > : > Let's hope "incredibly fast" is also in there somewhere.  0 No, let's hope "incredibly correct" is in there.+ IA-64 already has lesser operating systems.c   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:35:54 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)g) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. * Message-ID: <9h8eca$5vt$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <9h8bl3$o4v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,3 David Mathog <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote:t >[snip]f >r2 >  ***COMPAQ MANAGEMENT WANTS THIS PORT TO FAIL*** >l  J That's as absurd as anything that's been posted here recently.  And that's
 saying a LOT.e  H Compaq being unable to manage a port to the processor that it looks likeK everyone will be supporting in the future (see recent HP announcement, heck I even Sun has hedged their bets by having a working Solaris port _today_) sC will not bode well for their ability to sell into those high-margin B Enterprise accounts that they are obviously trying to nurture with their entire new strategy.   >[snip]o >oD >Before anybody jumps on me for suggesting such a disruptive action,L >please keep in mind that at this point I'm concerned only about the welfareI >of the folks in OpenVMS engineering.  They really need to think long and H >hard about their personal stakes in this port, this company, and VMS inL >general, especially considering how Compaq management's "support" for AlphaL >has turned out, and given its similar level of "support" for OpenVMS.  TheyE >really need to consider all their options at this point, and blindly-H >following orders will turn out to be a poor choice if general Mike only! >wanted them for cannon fodder.  F >   H People have been jumping up and down, red-in-the-face, screaming in thisH newsgroup for VMS on commodity hardware.  It looks like Compaq has takenG a HUGE step in that direction and many of the same people are screamingo$ "woe is me, the end of VMS is nigh!"  D I remember a quote from the Commodore management when the Amiga diedB (effectively).  The manager was quoted as saying something to the F effect "Our staunch advocates in the community didn't do us any favors! by being so shrill all the time."   / People need to turn down the paranoia a little.o  	 >Regards,  >a
 >David Mathog. >mathog@caltech.edul@ >Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech K >**************************************************************************8K >*                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *aK >**************************************************************************v   -Jordan Hendersons jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:55:35 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>y) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.eD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251851190.16249-100000@world.std.com>  , On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Robert Deininger wrote:   > In articleC > <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FDD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,h. > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote: >  > N > > That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that Alpha > > does not?  a > L > Competent management and marketing.  But alpha has had the best engineers. >   E Alpha's Omega was rendered inevitable by Digital's outright marketing1D malfeasance and a string of Stupid Strategy Tricks. Compaq's initialH indecisiveness and tepid support for Alpha (and the support was far lessH than tepid amongst the Compaq Classic box-pushers) delayed a turn-aroundD in the business, which actually has grown during the past two years.   Too little, too late.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:40:19 +0200h) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.d, Message-ID: <3B37CBE3.34A364FD@infopuls.com>   john nixon wrote:i > E > I have finally, after 10 years or so of trying, finally prodded our H > development group (kicking and screaming)  into converting from VAX toI > Alpha.  Last week, we ordered several Alpha's to replace our VAX 7860s.s/ > The conversion should be completed this year.t > # > What a kick in the pants this is!D >  > I hope I still have a job. > K > I hope Compaq starts yelling from the rooftops how quickly they will porttD > VMS to Itanium, and how easy the port from AlphaVMS  will be.  TheI > competitors are already spreading the word that Alpha (and thus VMS) isc > dead.r >  > > John > >hF > > Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukL > > Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKE > > Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)n  < Well done! I don't think that your job is at risk. Image how8 long it would take to migrate to IA63? With a good Alpha< solution your company could well operate additional 10 to 158 years depending of the demands and apps available to the> platform. But given that there are still a lot of VAX versions@ around (compared to the low number of VMS apps) I wouldn't worry# about not having Alpha apps around.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:45:51 +0200A) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>h) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.h, Message-ID: <3B37CD2F.61E2BC43@infopuls.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > ! > john nixon wrote in message ...oF > >I have finally, after 10 years or so of trying, finally prodded ourI > >development group (kicking and screaming)  into converting from VAX toaJ > >Alpha.  Last week, we ordered several Alpha's to replace our VAX 7860s.0 > >The conversion should be completed this year. > >n$ > >What a kick in the pants this is! > >t > >I hope I still have a job.o > >  > F > For the next several years, Alpha is arguably the best HW available.D > Remember, we will continue and implement the EV7 family and systemH > platforms.  If you get from VAX to Alpha, the "port" to IPF should, weN > believe, be a recompile & relink.  It is also a 99.8% probability that there# > will be mixed cluster capability.  > L > >I hope Compaq starts yelling from the rooftops how quickly they will portE > >VMS to Itanium, and how easy the port from AlphaVMS  will be.  TheeJ > >competitors are already spreading the word that Alpha (and thus VMS) is > >dead. > M > Actually, the engineers here in Nashua seem, well, to be almost universallysJ > positive about this.  At the same time as it was announced, we also wereL > told our headcount would increase by a number that we will be hard pressed+ > to find engineers to fill quickly enough.i > I > Having ported VMS once, we know we can do it again.  There will be someaL > challenges ahead, but we don't know of any show-stoppers.  We'll know justM > how "easy" it is in a little while.  The OS has some significant challengesaK > that most user code doesn't know or care about (like the console program,s > etc).   
 Okay then.  ' May I ask for a multiplatform port? :-)y2 Would you guys retain Alpha while porting to IA63?? Would you guys do the port in a way that you have a PowerPC andt& a SPARC version also at the same time?> I'm SW engineer and I know that this is not a simle thing. But; we all know that supporting VAX, Alpha and IA63 is the hard @ part. Well done porting should allow for additional HW platforms at marginal costs.@ My experience with porting app SW to different platforms is that; each platform reduces the number of generic bugs and designi: weaknesses but adds platform specific bugs while revealing= certain bugs that didn't show up on other OSs. At the end thes! quality of the SW is much higher.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:23:50 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.a6 Message-ID: <1010625200811.38769E-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > John Macallister wrote:oN > > Today's announcement says that there will be a "Full port of ... VMS .. to  > > Itanium ... starting now." . > > N > > That, to me, appears to be a fairly positive commitment to the longer term > > future of VMS. > P > 1- Alpha is dead as of TODAY. Who in their right mind will invest in a millionA > dollar wildfire system today knowing the architecture is dead ?   L By this reasoning, P4 is dead.  Why would anyone invest in a million dollars worth of P4 NT servers?t  2 (I left out "in their right mind" on purpose.  ;-)  L > 2-With nobody buying Alpha systems, nobody will be buying VMS systems. VMSM > revenus will dry up REAL FAST. Remember, it will take 4 (and knowing intel,yI > probably 8) years before IA64 has the bit in it to support VMS and morenA > importantly NSK. Meanwhile, NT will happily chug along on IA64.   C This is the great danger with this strategy, I think.  They need topI convince potential customers that switching from Alpha to IA64 in 3 yearsoB will be an upgrade, not a migration, and will be utterly painless.  I One thing I found with VAX->Alpha:  It's a lot easier if you haven't lost B your sources and if you have working build procedures to recompile everything!t  M > 3- This means that Compaq is wasting money porting VMS to IA64 (the port is-P > probably just to save face). By the time VMS is ready on IA64, its market will > be greatly diminshed.>  J The port is essential to my answer to 2, and thus to preventing the market from diminishing.0  P > 4-The only way Compaq can offload their current stock of Alpha is to lower the; > prices WAY DOWN. I guess thsi is great news for hobyists.r  H No, unfortunately.  I'd like to get a decent Alpha for home use, so thisC means they will stay expensive.  Now, if I were to buy an expensiveVC Alpha for home use, the price would immediately plummet.  (This has:? happens whenever I buy PC hardware, but I've never noticed thismD effect on software.  Instead, the vendor releases a new version withB critical bugs fixed about one week after any free or cheap upgrade period expires.)  L > In one feel swooop, Compaq has managed to kill the revival effort that hadM > been made for VMS in the past year. The uncertainty over VMS that will lastaP > many years will make sure VMS returns into major downsizing mode. I personallyN > do not beleive that VMS will survive. (Sure, Compaq will continue to support2 > it, but it will have fewer and fewer customers).  @ I hope you are wrong.  It depends on both technology (having theC port go smoothly) and marketing (convincing the customers of that.)t  > I have a lot of faith in VMS engineering getting things right,@ though not always quickly enough to keep me perfectly happy, but! marketing is another story... :-(d   -- o John Santost Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:45:52 -0400o  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.t/ Message-ID: <1010625202726.38769F@Ives.egh.com>-  * On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Hunter Goatley wrote:  P > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:41:14 -0300, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > H > >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.: > >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium. > >zP > As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsP > from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasR > trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closelyP > to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilerJ > back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as aO > recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to Alpha O > wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEMqN > back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture, > once GEM has been fixed.)r > ! > That's what I hope, anyway.....n >  > Hunter > ------; > Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/p; > goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/N  > I don't know what the internal interface between the compilers> and the GEM back-end looks like, but since all the compiles on& Alpha use it, it must be fairly clean.  < How difficult would it be to split the compilers from GEM so= that developers could ship intermediate code and the customery< could do the GEM phase at installation time?  Then you could: ship a common kit for both Alpha and IA64, with the target< platform selected by the customer's GEM compiler (shipped as
 part of VMS.)f  @ A second benefit is (I think) most or all the optimization stuffD is done by GEM, not by the front-end compilers.  (Some of the Compaq? compiler-writers, Steve Lionel I think, have mentioned that the ? optimization qualifiers, e.g. for the Fortran compiler are just C passed through to GEM, which is what leads me to believe this.)  SowA you could pre-compile on whatever platform the developer has, butaA final-compile for not only the architecture but the specific chiptB on the end user's system.  If you really wanted to get every ounce@ of speed, you could do it without having to ship multiple .OLB's: optimized (with /optimize=tune=xxx) for each architecture.  B It might even be possible to create a VAX back-end (no optimizing,E except maybe removing redundant instructions or other trivial stuff), 9 so you wouldn't even need to ship a separate VAX version.e  @ This might just be a pipe-dream though.  There doesn't seem to a? separate "GEM" shareable image, which you would expect if theres= was a really clean interface between the compiler's front-end @ and GEM.  It could also be GEM is still a moving targer, and the? compiler developers always want to ship the latest version with 3 their compiler since it has new features they need?e   -- o John Santosd Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:06:46 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.n: Message-ID: <GeRZ6.5786$P5.2354465@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  > Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:acKZ6.98$rc5.4164@news.cpqcorp.net...J > I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.K > Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.  Ie  I But traumatic, nonetheless.  We are still cranking out both VAX and Alpha F code to this day and into the foreseeable future, still supporting VAXI customers.  Now, we have to make it 3 platforms?  Why port to VMS on IA64 H when one could port to NT on IA64?  Contrary to facts, the perception isJ that NT is less expensive, and 2000 is "13 times more reliable".  And hey,L IA64/Windoze 2000 developers' systems are available in beta today -- why not5 get a head start instead of waiting for OpenVMS-IA64?*  L > While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to( > see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.  L Just how open?  Will VMS run on a Dell box, Taiwanese clone, or Q only?  AndI what is your definition of "open"?  You mean it won't be like Alpha, justiH one processor family controlled by one company?  Oops, like, say, Intel?J That's "open"?  Or are you saying that work is afoot to make IA64 just theK first platform, with Sledgehammer, PowerPC, SPARC, and others to follow, inP a true open model?  J Not having a choice in processors is definitely NOT "open", IMHO.  OpenVMSI remains an oxymoron, just that after EV7, part of the money goes to Intele instead of Compaq.  K There's an old adage that applies very well today.  "Fool me once, shame on J you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."  Forgive me, as I'm trying to decide ifH the Q has fooled me a second time, and what I should do before the third
 time strikes.r  A Nothing against you or your team mates, Fred -- you do fine work.D  . Aaron, who does not like being made a fool of. --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:51:42 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)t) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.d3 Message-ID: <t3VUSKLKAZ2X@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  R In article <1010625202726.38769F@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:  B > This might just be a pipe-dream though.  There doesn't seem to aA > separate "GEM" shareable image, which you would expect if thereo? > was a really clean interface between the compiler's front-end>B > and GEM.  It could also be GEM is still a moving targer, and theA > compiler developers always want to ship the latest version withG5 > their compiler since it has new features they need?d  @ Indeed, I have received bug report answers for certain languages? that say "we can't do that because our compiler is running on ah? different version of GEM than the languages that support that".r  B And a compiler language group would certainly not want bug reportsB from someone running their front end against a version of GEM they had not tested.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:53:36 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.g3 Message-ID: <NzFpEF83mmKu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <GeRZ6.5786$P5.2354465@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:t  I > Just how open?  Will VMS run on a Dell box, Taiwanese clone, or Q only?   F Fred already answered that in this newsgroup, saying they would try toF avoid technical designs that prevented compatibility.  But, as always,6 there are the issues of "qualification" and "support".   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:35:29 GMTb$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.e) Message-ID: <3B37F57D.631449D0@wi.rr.com>t  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  G > I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha. 9 > A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium.i >e  K Yes they will.  When the fastest AlphaServer is no longer fast enough, theywM will move to a hot Intel-based box.  Same thing that happened when people hittN a performance ceiling with the VAX line.  A fully-loaded VAX 7800 only goes so fast.g   -Scott   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:43:25 GMTR$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.a) Message-ID: <3B37F759.6D54E667@wi.rr.com>*   Brian Wheeler wrote:  M > Speaking of porting...since Itanium is (technically) a commodity processor,AA > what's the chance of an off-the-street Itanium box running VMS?*  Q What are the chances of it running or what are the chances of it being supported?nN I have a feeling that VMS-on-Intel will end up being like Win 2000 DataCenter: There will be a veryR small list of supported systems and options.  If you don't have hardware from that
 list, then you don't get support.  L It's the same deal as today when Hoff gets a question about running VMS on a system that3P was never meant to run anything other than NT-Alpha:  "Yes, VMS may load on that
 system butI it never was and never will be supported."  You...are...on....your...own.t  Q I predict that the Itanium-based servers will be big expensive hogs just like thee multi-processorhL Unisys Intel systems that are currently on the market (the model that Compaq *used* to sell).  After1P shelling out $100,000 for one of these beasties, you won't want to put a $19 NIC in there just toP cut corners.  You'll choose a NIC from the small list of NICs that is "approved"
 by Compaq.  N I doubt that VMS will every run (and be supported) on a regular desktop system from Gateway.  :^)  
 -Scott :^)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:49:52 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. ) Message-ID: <3B37F8DD.F3E15D6D@wi.rr.com>D  E Wait for what?  VMS on Intel to come out?  Don't hold your breath....sK It's gonna be a while before they get things just right.  You'll be able toaL get your money's worth out of the GS system and then buy another AlphaServer0 before you are ready to migrate to VMS on Intel.  O If you can afford to wait four years for VMS on Intel, then you didn't need the  GS in the first place.5 You must have plenty of horsepower already on-hand...h   -scott  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  I > The company I am working for is / was planning to buy a GS machine (not  > sure > if will be 80 or 160). >c$ > I believe the company will wait... >  > Everybody should wait ! !j >c > Regr >h > FC >aH > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> em 25/06/2001 14:05:36 >RC > Favor responder a "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  >x >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt > + > Assunto: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  >eJ > I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.K > Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.o > I K > believe that if you have gotten to Alpha, odds are it will be a recompiler	 > and go.o >uL > Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?  I think that in the grandL > scheme of things, you were buying OpenVMS for the things that it brings toH > the table... if we could build a VAX that was as fast as Alpha - you'd > stille > be on VAX. >2L > While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to( > see VMS on a "open" hardware platform. >r: > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ...H > >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.: > >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium. > >cK > >Bad point of view:   I believe a lot of customres will jump to long-timeh
 > >processors = > >                                     as SPARC or Power PC.y > > I > >Good point of view:  I can improve my value $$$ in the market  becausei
 > >OpenVMSM > >                                       professionals will become much moret > >rares ..... > >e > >,
 > >Regards > >  > >FC  > >s > >  > >8 > >bL > >John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> em 25/06/2001 10:18:02 > >tG > >Favor responder a John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>, > >h > >s > >  > >      Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >  > >e > >s( > >Assunto: Full port of VMS to Itanium. > >  > >VM > >Today's announcement says that there will be a "Full port of ... VMS .. toe > >Itanium ... starting now." .a > >t > > M > >That, to me, appears to be a fairly positive commitment to the longer termi > >future of VMS.  > >w8 > >The Powerpoint slides of the announcement are at URL: > >u@ > >http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/download/webcast.ppt > >w > >e > >John  > >eE > >Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk K > >Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK D > >Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax) > >s > >t > >  > >y > >. > >a > >s > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:39:03 -04006+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>y) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.oR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4A1945A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   G'day Aaron ..  A >>> Why port to VMS on IA64 when one could port to NT on IA64? <<h  C Perhaps if one wanted high end clustering and felt simple fail overcK clustering was not enough to meet their requirements? For some Customers ithH will be enough and it will have a market. For others, these capabilitiesA will not be enough and will require an OS with more capabilities.S  G Perhaps if one needed a 64bit OS solution that a long history of proven-I 64bit based reliability. Keep in mind that the final release date for theJ4 1.0 release of Win64 has still not been determined.   L With a semi-common HW platform, the various OS's will have to compete on the basis of their capabilities.  J Obviously, it is not without challenges, but I suspect that given the sameJ price ranges, and the same HW that is marketed by Intel, OpenVMS will moreF than hold its own weight. Obviously, apps play a part in this as well.  H Fwiw, and while it is way to early to know if this will be possible, butL under "would be great if ..", I suspect ISV's could be see a benefit in thisK as they will have Itanium servers connected to a SAN and they can choose tom. boot what ever OS they want that is supported.   Interesting times...   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanti Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660u Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----3 From: Alphaman [mailto:alphaman64@nixspam-home.com]a Sent: June 25, 2001 9:07 PMM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.g    > Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:acKZ6.98$rc5.4164@news.cpqcorp.net...J > I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.K > Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.s I   I But traumatic, nonetheless.  We are still cranking out both VAX and AlphagF code to this day and into the foreseeable future, still supporting VAXI customers.  Now, we have to make it 3 platforms?  Why port to VMS on IA646H when one could port to NT on IA64?  Contrary to facts, the perception isJ that NT is less expensive, and 2000 is "13 times more reliable".  And hey,L IA64/Windoze 2000 developers' systems are available in beta today -- why not5 get a head start instead of waiting for OpenVMS-IA64?s  L > While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to( > see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.  L Just how open?  Will VMS run on a Dell box, Taiwanese clone, or Q only?  AndI what is your definition of "open"?  You mean it won't be like Alpha, justcH one processor family controlled by one company?  Oops, like, say, Intel?J That's "open"?  Or are you saying that work is afoot to make IA64 just theK first platform, with Sledgehammer, PowerPC, SPARC, and others to follow, inl a true open model?  J Not having a choice in processors is definitely NOT "open", IMHO.  OpenVMSI remains an oxymoron, just that after EV7, part of the money goes to Inteln instead of Compaq.  K There's an old adage that applies very well today.  "Fool me once, shame onwJ you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."  Forgive me, as I'm trying to decide ifH the Q has fooled me a second time, and what I should do before the third
 time strikes.f  A Nothing against you or your team mates, Fred -- you do fine work.i  . Aaron, who does not like being made a fool of. --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:14:03 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. , Message-ID: <3B380C03.E7D5E92C@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > Perhaps if one needed a 64bit OS solution that a long history of provenrK > 64bit based reliability. Keep in mind that the final release date for then5 > 1.0 release of Win64 has still not been determined.d  N By the time VMS becomes available to customers on IA64, NT will have have moreK maturity and more history on that platform compared to VMS. Same with Linuxv and other unix systems.w    N > With a semi-common HW platform, the various OS's will have to compete on the > basis of their capabilities.  M When you look at Tandem systems, you realise that this won't be the case. FordM Tandem to maintain their reliability, their systems may have the CPU based oniK IA74, but I would expect their motherboards, bus interfaces etc to be quiterN different than commodity hardware in order to acheive the fault tolerance that. is required and expected from those customers.  L The big question is whether VMS will be able to run on commodity stuff or ifK it will also need to have systems built specifically to run (and boot) VMS.     L In my mind, Compaq won't really be saving that much money for these types ofM systems because they will still need to be built differently than those builta# for simpler OS such as NT and Unix.l   > Interesting times...  M Correct. We now know not to trust any commitments made by Compaq because theyGK can go and change them whenever convenient for its parent companies (MS andpL Intel). So all the commitments Compaq made for VMS along with those on Alpha are now meaningless.  D Will they complete the port to IA64 ? Probably. Will they market VMS agressively: probably not. e  K I think that the Tandem migration will be far more important to Compaq thani the VMS one since Tandem  H is the real "mission critical" operating system with lots of visibility, especially on Wall Street.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:49:10 -0500o5 From: "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM>t) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.tG Message-ID: <DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA3715304C906C5@mbsus228.mbc.com>   F Wouldn't it have made more sense to have ported OpenVMS, Tru64, NSK toJ Itanium and have the working incarnations of the OS's ready to demonstrateK *BEFORE* announcing the abandonment of the only chip platforms they operateoI on...I find it hard to believe that a savvy business decision maker wouldVL throw his "trust" into Compaq's following through on its promise to actuallyK port the OS's.  This is also the reason that this announcement will severlyeC hurt Compaq in the pocketbook immediately in terms of Alpha and NSKcC sales...they will practically vanish...how stupid can a company be?r   Doug Hipenbecker Miller Brewing Co.   -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]$ Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 11:14 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.1     "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > Perhaps if one needed a 64bit OS solution that a long history of proveniK > 64bit based reliability. Keep in mind that the final release date for then5 > 1.0 release of Win64 has still not been determined.e  I By the time VMS becomes available to customers on IA64, NT will have haveb moreK maturity and more history on that platform compared to VMS. Same with Linuxr and other unix systems.m    J > With a semi-common HW platform, the various OS's will have to compete on theh > basis of their capabilities.  I When you look at Tandem systems, you realise that this won't be the case.i ForlJ Tandem to maintain their reliability, their systems may have the CPU based onK IA74, but I would expect their motherboards, bus interfaces etc to be quitesI different than commodity hardware in order to acheive the fault tolerancea that. is required and expected from those customers.  L The big question is whether VMS will be able to run on commodity stuff or ifK it will also need to have systems built specifically to run (and boot) VMS.u    L In my mind, Compaq won't really be saving that much money for these types ofG systems because they will still need to be built differently than those  builto# for simpler OS such as NT and Unix.O   > Interesting times...  H Correct. We now know not to trust any commitments made by Compaq because theyK can go and change them whenever convenient for its parent companies (MS andoL Intel). So all the commitments Compaq made for VMS along with those on Alpha are now meaningless.  D Will they complete the port to IA64 ? Probably. Will they market VMS agressively: probably not. d  K I think that the Tandem migration will be far more important to Compaq thanw the VMS one since Tandem  H is the real "mission critical" operating system with lots of visibility, especially on Wall Street.   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:07:49 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS2 Message-ID: <9h85ml$me8$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  L In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FDC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,. 	Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:F > I, for one, actually have the letter that was sent to me, by Compaq,N > pledging to support VMS on the VAX "through the year 2010" with "preventive,3 > performance optimization, and remedial services."S > M > I wouldn't take it as a good sign at all if they decided that they won't do> > that after all.@ >     G I've got that one hanging up behind my desk.  I've always felt that the 
 statement:  > 	"We at Compaq Services are very proud of our VAX heritage..."  9 is too much like a "really, trust us!"-kind of statement.    Brian.    
 > Regards, >  > Chrisl > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developerv > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  > 'e >  i >  >> -----Original Message-----l= >> From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]n > > >> The announcement is too new to be able to provide any real  >> information tooA >> you.  I would expect to begin to see some concrete statements m >> in probably a >> month (IMHO). > ? >> Our VAX customers are important to us (even though we would - >> like it if weH >> could turn them all into Alpha - or now Itanium - sites running VMS). > @ >> JF Mezei wrote in message <3B368264.5ED53B4E@videotron.ca>...< >> >With the rumoured impending death of Alpha and rumoured  >> migration of VMS toI >> >IA64, this will put quite a but of strain on the Compaq VMS engineersw	 >> havingl@ >> >to port VMS to a platform which was not designed to support  >> VMS. And then, ) >> >having to support VMS on 3 platforms.v > > >> >Will Compaq take this opportunity to say that 7.3 will be  >> the last versions >> ofa >> >VMS for VAX ?p   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:16:52 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>u& Subject: RE: Future support of VAX-VMSL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  J I expect them to do this, actually.  The repercussions that they'd have toH face if they didn't after making such a statement far outweigh the price) they'd spend to fulfill their commitment.e   Regards,   Christ  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");d 'V  7   > -----Original Message-----: > From: bdwheele@indiana.edu [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu]  < > I've got that one hanging up behind my desk.  I've always  > felt that the  > statement: > @ > 	"We at Compaq Services are very proud of our VAX heritage..." > ; > is too much like a "really, trust us!"-kind of statement.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:27:01 GMTn$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS) Message-ID: <3B37F381.816DD818@wi.rr.com>M  N A "platform which was not designed to support VMS"?  Didn't you read the press releases today?eQ The Alpha chip engineers will be going to work at Intel.  Don't you think they'll  be putting the same tweaks? into the Itanium chip that they put in the current Alpha chips?    -Scott   JF Mezei wrote:   M > With the rumoured impending death of Alpha and rumoured migration of VMS tonN > IA64, this will put quite a but of strain on the Compaq VMS engineers havingL > to port VMS to a platform which was not designed to support VMS. And then,' > having to support VMS on 3 platforms.a >rO > Will Compaq take this opportunity to say that 7.3 will be the last version ofi > VMS for VAX ?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:37:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS, Message-ID: <3B38035A.79191808@videotron.ca>   Scott Vieth wrote: > P > A "platform which was not designed to support VMS"?  Didn't you read the press > releases today?uS > The Alpha chip engineers will be going to work at Intel.  Don't you think they'll  > be putting the same tweaksA > into the Itanium chip that they put in the current Alpha chips?o  I That is the big question isn't it. Since NSK had originally planned to goh? IA64, does native IA64 architecture support NSK off the shelf ?o  L And will Intel adapt IA64's architecture to support VMS, or will it tell VMS( engineers to adapt VMS to support IA64 ?  M At this point in time, I doubt very much that Intel engineers would allow anycN major changes to IA64 because IA64 is already in production. It all depends onM what VMS wants to see on the chip and how complex it is to add such a featurelA without changing how the chip behaves to other operating systems.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 01:54:17 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS3 Message-ID: <fkgKX5uhUhE0@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  \ In article <3B38035A.79191808@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  N > And will Intel adapt IA64's architecture to support VMS, or will it tell VMS* > engineers to adapt VMS to support IA64 ? > K > At this point in time, I doubt very much that Intel engineers would allowgI > any major changes to IA64 because IA64 is already in production. It alluK > depends on what VMS wants to see on the chip and how complex it is to addoI > such a feature without changing how the chip behaves to other operatinga
 > systems.  G IA64 is in production, just as Alpha was in production with the release.G of the 21064 in 1992.  Somehow DEQ managed to put new features into thecF Alpha chips named 21064A, 21164, 21164PC, 21264 and whatever else.  OfD course IBM and Motorola do this with the various PowerPC models, theH latest being called G3 and G4 by Macintosh users.  But Intel would neverF put changes into a chip -- they are not capable.  If they were, by nowC there would be a 286, 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium 3 and F Pentium 4.  But that is impossible because IA64 has too many bits. TheD press reports naming Merced, McKinley and (I forget number 3) in theD IA64 series are exaggerating -- those names just indicate the colors of the package.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:29:46 -0300b) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brc7 Subject: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!dL Message-ID: <OF19D803BD.3995363E-ON03256A76.006008A5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Think is this way:  C With new Itanium NUMA servers, you can run OpenVMS and Windows 2000  or XP in the same cabinet.0 The integration and portability will be easier !   Fabio C.        < "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> em 25/06/2001 14:17:44  7 Favor responder a "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>t             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn      7 Assunto: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!o     Volker Kerkhoff wrote:  B > http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20010625corp.htm >i > Alpha, Rest In Peace.e >pF > Volker Kerkhoff and other express their mourning for the dead of our > beloved Alpha Chip.   ? Call me pig-headed, but I've done my best to avoid making major)C compromises by depending on Microsloth, their inferior products and-G vaporware strategies.  With all of the problems Intel has had releasingyG a 64 bit processor, and the initial introduction of a chip that appearseE inferior to the Alpha, it appears that Compaq is making a major errorc< staking the future of their non-Windoze business on Itanium.  = For Compaq to state that VMS will be running on a replacementeE architecture based on Itanium smells strongly of vaporware once againmE and perhaps is an indirect method of abandoning that business knowingiF full and well that VMS folks, as well as the other non-Windoze people,B will not or cannot make the move because their applications didn'tD survive the porting.  How many people are still stuck on VAX systemsF because of this exact problem?  With Intel and Compaq in the same bed,@ if their do minimize their non-Windoze business further, forcingG continued migration to other OS's, doesn't it sound as if a third partyp0 might also be in that same bed?  Say Microsloth?  9 I must have watched 'Conspiracy Theory' too many times...    Barryh --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOb  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:12:55 -0600.4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam>7 Subject: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!e3 Message-ID: <U2MZ6.2232$Ln6.215571@news.uswest.net>   K After reading a lot of the whines about the Compaq/Intel announcement, I amiG starting to wonder how many VMS people have blinders on.  Face reality,:I Digital and Compaq have done a _HORRIBLE_ job marketing VMS and the Alpha-L processor, while Intel and Microsoft have outstanding marketing.  This aloneL will cause problems with the long term market viability of VMS and the Alpha
 processor.  K About Compaq - Compaq started as an integration shop, not a SW or HW house.4J Ever since acquiring Digital, Compaq has been attempting to dump the AlphaK chip on someone who would continue building them.  They failed.  Now we arelL seeing the end-game of the Digital purchase.  The real concern at this pointI is how much longer will Compaq continue to develop/maintain VMS given the K company's roots as an integrator.  I suspect that TruUNIX-64 is now on it'soI deathbead, given that there are already variants and derivatives of Unix,t+ including Linux, running on Intel hardware.a   --
 Mike Ober.  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF19D803BD.3995363E-ON03256A76.006008A5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... > Think is this way: >-E > With new Itanium NUMA servers, you can run OpenVMS and Windows 2000a > or XP in the same cabinet.2 > The integration and portability will be easier ! >r
 > Fabio C. >x >a >n > > > "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> em 25/06/2001 14:17:44 >n9 > Favor responder a "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>l >  >o >c >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com? >h >s >p9 > Assunto: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!t >e >i > Volker Kerkhoff wrote: >eD > > http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20010625corp.htm > >i > > Alpha, Rest In Peace.s > >nH > > Volker Kerkhoff and other express their mourning for the dead of our > > beloved Alpha Chip.t >nA > Call me pig-headed, but I've done my best to avoid making majorwE > compromises by depending on Microsloth, their inferior products and"I > vaporware strategies.  With all of the problems Intel has had releasing,I > a 64 bit processor, and the initial introduction of a chip that appearsoG > inferior to the Alpha, it appears that Compaq is making a major errori> > staking the future of their non-Windoze business on Itanium. >e? > For Compaq to state that VMS will be running on a replacementhG > architecture based on Itanium smells strongly of vaporware once again G > and perhaps is an indirect method of abandoning that business knowing H > full and well that VMS folks, as well as the other non-Windoze people,D > will not or cannot make the move because their applications didn'tF > survive the porting.  How many people are still stuck on VAX systemsH > because of this exact problem?  With Intel and Compaq in the same bed,B > if their do minimize their non-Windoze business further, forcingI > continued migration to other OS's, doesn't it sound as if a third party 2 > might also be in that same bed?  Say Microsloth? >a; > I must have watched 'Conspiracy Theory' too many times...i >v > Barrye > -- >sA > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO  >eC > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028t >n >  >t >, >u >a >e >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:11:37 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>l7 Subject: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!t' Message-ID: <3B379AF9.D88B5ABD@fsi.net>o   "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote: >  > Volker Kerkhoff wrote: > D > > http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20010625corp.htm > >  > > Alpha, Rest In Peace.f > >wH > > Volker Kerkhoff and other express their mourning for the dead of our > > beloved Alpha Chip.n > A > Call me pig-headed, but I've done my best to avoid making major E > compromises by depending on Microsloth, their inferior products andpI > vaporware strategies.  With all of the problems Intel has had releasingnI > a 64 bit processor, and the initial introduction of a chip that appearsaG > inferior to the Alpha, it appears that Compaq is making a major erroro> > staking the future of their non-Windoze business on Itanium.  D I, too, have lived to rue the day that I didn't cross train on other@ systems, even Micro$hit. Fortunately for me, my OpenVMS days areG numbered and the number of days is a much less unknown quantity than it  was brief months ago.    > [snip] > ; > I must have watched 'Conspiracy Theory' too many times...e    Yeah - y'gotta wonder, don't ya?   -- - David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems1 http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:21:55 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h7 Subject: Re: Guys, IT is done! Read this and be scared!o( Message-ID: <9h86an$g74$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF19D803BD.3995363E-ON03256A76.006008A5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... > Think is this way: >aE > With new Itanium NUMA servers, you can run OpenVMS and Windows 2000g > or XP in the same cabinet.2 > The integration and portability will be easier !  G Of course, if Compaq hadn't abandoned NT on Alpha, you could already beu doing that on Wildfires...   - bill   > 
 > Fabio C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:16:11 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> * Subject: Re: H-P EOLs PA-RISC Architecture, Message-ID: <3B37C63B.D5A039A5@infopuls.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > ^ > In article <3B3632DF.4C4A1855@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > CSABA HARANGOZO wrote:4 > >>         Good luck to HP... they will need it... > >hQ > > Considering that Compaq is about to embark on the same philosophy of a single K > > processor for all, your wish of good luck to HP also applies to Compaq.h > >nJ > > The big winner in this might be IBM with its PowerPc chip (and Apple). > J > Steve JObs isn't tht dumb.  All he need to port OS X is big endian mode.J > Anybody know if IA-64 is bi-endian?  (Would make HP's jobs easier, too.) > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationy? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupyG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingh  8 I heard that some Apple employes already built a working prototype of MacOS X on IA32.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:04:15 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)! Subject: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64e1 Message-ID: <3PMZ6.120$rc5.4606@news.cpqcorp.net>f     Since somebody asked...n  C   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on the  C   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:34:02 -0400R- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64a+ Message-ID: <3B37A032.E46A151@videotron.ca>F   Hoff Hoffman wrote:mD >   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on theE >   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform.p  M No offense intended, but if I ever get an IA64 machine at home, it will be toiL put in a mainstream operating system to get some marketable skills, not VMS.  L I have VMS at home because I used to run my business on VMS, and I still useL it because the systems are setup and running fine. But I won't spend a pennyL more in VMS at home. As a matter of fact, I will probably spend time to load> netBSD on my old 68k macintosh and brush up my skills on Unix.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 17:28:45 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)9% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64.3 Message-ID: <ORhtakl6MV0V@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  [ In article <3B37A032.E46A151@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  > Hoff Hoffman wrote:oE >>   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on thenF >>   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform. > O > No offense intended, but if I ever get an IA64 machine at home, it will be toeN > put in a mainstream operating system to get some marketable skills, not VMS. > N > I have VMS at home because I used to run my business on VMS, and I still useN > it because the systems are setup and running fine. But I won't spend a pennyN > more in VMS at home. As a matter of fact, I will probably spend time to load@ > netBSD on my old 68k macintosh and brush up my skills on Unix.  @ But Mr. Hoffman answered the question because someone else _was_. interested in IA64 VMS hobbyist possibilities.  B JF, we understand that _you_ are negative about this (and possiblyA negative about everything in the world), but please do not berate A the Compaq experts for handling the questions that others in thisu group choose to ask.   ------------------------------   Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:41:33o1 From: "Charles Sandmann" <sandmann@clio.rice.edu>r% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64h- Message-ID: <3b3777cd.sandmann@clio.rice.edu>w  K With an offer like this, I'd buy an IA-64 box and offer to help port every t  application to OpenVMS on IA-64.  K I'll be interested to see if mixed mode clusters with VAX and IA-64 memberst work :-)   >   Since somebody asked...  > E >   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on the wE >   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform.' > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:01:19 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> % Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64e' Message-ID: <3B37D0CF.6DC1F43A@fsi.net>    Charles Sandmann wrote:i > L > With an offer like this, I'd buy an IA-64 box and offer to help port every" > application to OpenVMS on IA-64.  H Assuming there'll be VEST and AEST tools for translating images to IA64,H that might be of more immediate service to cause. Later on, source-level> ports will be of greater import as the next step(s), I'm sure.   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE SystemsM http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:41:52 +0200d) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64h, Message-ID: <3B37DA50.9CE1244C@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Hoff Hoffman wrote:pF > >   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on theG > >   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform.  > O > No offense intended, but if I ever get an IA64 machine at home, it will be toVN > put in a mainstream operating system to get some marketable skills, not VMS. > N > I have VMS at home because I used to run my business on VMS, and I still useN > it because the systems are setup and running fine. But I won't spend a pennyN > more in VMS at home. As a matter of fact, I will probably spend time to load@ > netBSD on my old 68k macintosh and brush up my skills on Unix.  > Don't waste your time. UNIX is pure shit (sorry for using this< word, really, but sometimes the truth has to be spoken out).= You'd be do much better implementing some needed apps on VMS.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:09:23 GMTd4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64e) Message-ID: <D1TZ6.4732$%L5.60427@insync>   0 Charles Sandmann (sandmann@clio.rice.edu) wrote:F : With an offer like this, I'd buy an IA-64 box and offer to help port( : every application to OpenVMS on IA-64.  6 Does that include Quake II, recently ported to AIX :-)   : F : I'll be interested to see if mixed mode clusters with VAX and IA-64  : members work :-)  F IA-64 Windows users will be able to use VMS' Backup (BACKUP/PHYSICAL),' to finally have a reliable backup tool.w   :  : > Since somebody asked...t : >cF : >  I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on the F : >  VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform. : > L : > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ------------------------M : >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com2L : > --------------------------- pure personal opinion ----------------------N : >  Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:14:03 +1000a/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> % Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64 3 Message-ID: <zSUZ6.11842$qJ4.480833@ozemail.com.au>e  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messaged+ news:3PMZ6.120$rc5.4606@news.cpqcorp.net...E >0 >   Since somebody asked...r >cD >   I would expect to see this program continue to be offered on theE >   VAX and Alpha platforms, and made available on the IA64 platform.t > ( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------mL >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------n1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineeringr hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >pH In the light of recent announcements I would think that everyone in this group will be ableL to have an alpha (or even a cluster) at home well before vms is available on intel (2004) Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:58:12 -0400o+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>a/ Subject: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwoode# Message-ID: <sb37519c.061@aaas.org>s  L I know I shouldn't read ZDNet, because every time I do I end up yelling at =L my computer (I really hate Jessie Burst). Stupid me, I looked at the ZDNet = article on this, and I got mad.   L http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093197,00.html?chkpt=3Dzdhpn= ews01   L ~ For Intel the deal is "obviously a major victory in the sense that...even=% tually all Compaq's 64-bit stuff williL ~ be Itanium-based," said Nathan Brookwood, principal analyst at Insight64.=     DUH!=20t  K ~ Brookwood said Compaq "could have kept (Alpha) going, but at least here =y they're going out in a very=20G ~ orderly manner, which benefits everybody. It's sort of a death with =  dignity" for Alpha.i  K Huh? Hello? Are you a financial analyst? Because only a financial analyst =OI could say whether a product or line was or wasn't adversely affecting a = L business as a whole. Not to mention, that right now Alpha is beating Intel =G in the 64 bit market (INSERT COMPAQ'S 64 BIT REVENUE HERE) to $0.00 . =nJ That's zippo - nada. Does it compare to Intel's 32 bit business? No, but =L neither with Intel's 64 bit business when they actually sell an Itanium or = two.=20M  J ~In an internal memo to employees dated June 12, Chief Executive Michael = Capellas outlined a new L ~strategy to transform Compaq. Calling it a "major shift" for the company, =$ Capellas said the goal is to make=20E ~Compaq "the leading IT solutions provider," zeroing in on a way to =o! deliver software, products and=20p ~services to its customers.    Dear Michael Capellas,K If Compaq is going to be a solution provider, please tell Fidel from your =oK Maryland office that he will need to one day be able to provide soltuions =pJ - as in fix my SCSI bus problem - faster than the ELEVEN days it's taken =H so far on brand new hardware (and counting). Oh wait, that's problably =K because it's an Alpha. This will all be fixed once I'm running OpenVMS on =  a Proliant.w  F By the way, your Proliant servers suck genitals. Once, I used a 7000 =G series as a coffee table because one power supply died and the others =MK didn't fair over. You ended up replacing everything but the case. Oh, and = K there is still a Quad PPro 200 Proliant 5000 in my office at the EOP that =sI you could never fix, despite replacing everything including the case. I = L love the new DL360s, I have one that they replaced both CPUs twice and the =L heatsinks four times because "the thermal compound wasn't on right" (lie). =J The best part is, while they're commodity parts, and they're cheap, even =I with 24x7x4 hour CarePaqs it still took your people days to fix each of =!K these problems. And they're generally stupid. If Dell hadn't discontinued =22 their 4000 series of servers I'd be Proliant free.  K So as you can imagine, I'm looking forward to spending my days and nights = J waiting for your "solutions providers" to show up and fix my substandard =K Prolaint servers with Intel Itaniam* processors in them, whether they run =aL Windows 2002, OpenVMS, Tru64, or Fantansy Land OS, since that is where you = live.    Taking a "Time Out", =BFfoo?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:24:44 -0400e  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>3 Subject: Re: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwoodn6 Message-ID: <1010625211806.38769I-100000@Ives.egh.com>  - On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, John Eisenschmidt wrote:b  L > I know I shouldn't read ZDNet, because every time I do I end up yelling a=L t my computer (I really hate Jessie Burst). Stupid me, I looked at the ZDNe=! t article on this, and I got mad.o >=20L > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093197,00.html?chkpt=3Dzdh= pnews01u >=20L > ~ For Intel the deal is "obviously a major victory in the sense that...ev=' entually all Compaq's 64-bit stuff will L > ~ be Itanium-based," said Nathan Brookwood, principal analyst at Insight6= 4. >=20	 > DUH!=20a >=20L > ~ Brookwood said Compaq "could have kept (Alpha) going, but at least here=  they're going out in a very=20sL > ~ orderly manner, which benefits everybody. It's sort of a death with dig= nity" for Alpha. >=20L > Huh? Hello? Are you a financial analyst? Because only a financial analyst=L  could say whether a product or line was or wasn't adversely affecting a bu=L siness as a whole. Not to mention, that right now Alpha is beating Intel in=L  the 64 bit market (INSERT COMPAQ'S 64 BIT REVENUE HERE) to $0.00 . That's =L zippo - nada. Does it compare to Intel's 32 bit business? No, but neither w=I ith Intel's 64 bit business when they actually sell an Itanium or two.=20-  H I came across the name "Nathan Brookwood" a couple of years ago and someE one who knows him told me he is the same Nathan Teicholtz who used tobJ work for DEC.  (I don't know why he changed his name; maybe people could'tH pronounce or spell it?  "Holtz" means wood in German, so I guess "Teich" must mean "brook".)0  J I don't remember what his job was at DEC, but I heard his name many times.I I think it was pre-VMS, so he may have been involved in the RSTS/E group,n or perhaps Telco Marketing.u  F I don't know that this implies that he knows what he is talking about,$ just that he goes way back with DEC.  L > ~In an internal memo to employees dated June 12, Chief Executive Michael = Capellas outlined a new L > ~strategy to transform Compaq. Calling it a "major shift" for the company=& , Capellas said the goal is to make=20L > ~Compaq "the leading IT solutions provider," zeroing in on a way to deliv= er software, products and=20 > ~services to its customers.r >=20 > Dear Michael Capellas,L > If Compaq is going to be a solution provider, please tell Fidel from your=L  Maryland office that he will need to one day be able to provide soltuions =L - as in fix my SCSI bus problem - faster than the ELEVEN days it's taken so=L  far on brand new hardware (and counting). Oh wait, that's problably becaus=L e it's an Alpha. This will all be fixed once I'm running OpenVMS on a Proli= ant. >=20L > By the way, your Proliant servers suck genitals. Once, I used a 7000 seri=L es as a coffee table because one power supply died and the others didn't fa=L ir over. You ended up replacing everything but the case. Oh, and there is s=L till a Quad PPro 200 Proliant 5000 in my office at the EOP that you could n=L ever fix, despite replacing everything including the case. I love the new D=L L360s, I have one that they replaced both CPUs twice and the heatsinks four=L  times because "the thermal compound wasn't on right" (lie). The best part =L is, while they're commodity parts, and they're cheap, even with 24x7x4 hour=L  CarePaqs it still took your people days to fix each of these problems. And=L  they're generally stupid. If Dell hadn't discontinued their 4000 series of=  servers I'd be Proliant free. >=20L > So as you can imagine, I'm looking forward to spending my days and nights=L  waiting for your "solutions providers" to show up and fix my substandard P=L rolaint servers with Intel Itaniam* processors in them, whether they run Wi=L ndows 2002, OpenVMS, Tru64, or Fantansy Land OS, since that is where you li= ve.. >=20 > Taking a "Time Out",	 > =BFfoo?c >=20 >=20 >=20   --=20t John Santose Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:20:59 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br  Subject: I will change platformaL Message-ID: <OF60B502DC.71F0D296-ON03256A76.0069B9B5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   People  F I believe I will be out of this newsgroup soon. I cant trust my career anymore K in OpenVMS. I will jump to the "state-of-art" Windows 2000.   I am making a J lot of interviews and because I dont work with NT since 1998 I am "late orI non-updated", what means a lot of lost oportunities for me.. I am working-H far from the big cities, so It is difficult for me to have interviews... and the lastG ones (about 5) were unsucessful.....Companies (or HR) dont know what is 0 OpenVMS - people think I am out of service ! ! !  F I would like to  try one more time to go to Europe as OpenVMS admin if appears someJ good opportunity  - even as temporary for 1-2 years - but  am afraid since today !f  H I dont work with Unix (Solaris)  since last year (2001) and I am "out of
 this market",3 according to the HR people !  @ So I will accept any job which can pay 60% of my actual salaray.  K I will not study Tru64 of course ! I will make my Solaris 8 certification !v ! !l   Fabio C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:08:48 -0600-4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam># Subject: Re: I will change platformc2 Message-ID: <jTMZ6.529$Qk1.286938@news.uswest.net>  
 Good Luck. --
 Mike Ober.  6 <fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br> wrote in messageF news:OF60B502DC.71F0D296-ON03256A76.0069B9B5@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br... > People >1H > I believe I will be out of this newsgroup soon. I cant trust my career	 > anymore K > in OpenVMS. I will jump to the "state-of-art" Windows 2000.   I am makingn aoL > lot of interviews and because I dont work with NT since 1998 I am "late orK > non-updated", what means a lot of lost oportunities for me.. I am workingfJ > far from the big cities, so It is difficult for me to have interviews... > and the lastI > ones (about 5) were unsucessful.....Companies (or HR) dont know what is 2 > OpenVMS - people think I am out of service ! ! ! >iH > I would like to  try one more time to go to Europe as OpenVMS admin if > appears someL > good opportunity  - even as temporary for 1-2 years - but  am afraid since	 > today !d >kJ > I dont work with Unix (Solaris)  since last year (2001) and I am "out of > this market",2 > according to the HR people ! >@B > So I will accept any job which can pay 60% of my actual salaray. >MK > I will not study Tru64 of course ! I will make my Solaris 8 certificatione !B > ! !E >1
 > Fabio C. >>   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:33:43 -0700% From: ia69queen@yahoo.com (IA69QUEEN)r Subject: IA64 Rocks My World= Message-ID: <d8e70602.0106251733.520df139@posting.google.com>    Dear Computer People,o  ? I am an Alpha Designer...or was an Alpha Designer.  At first I  B was skeptical about IA64 architecture, but after the presentation > today, I've changed my mind. The Intel VP made perfect sense. 1 I signed up right away! And gave him a big hug!  e  B IA64 is a feature rich architecture with many technical advantages< and is rich with features.  I look forward to building this  microprocessor.  e  ? The best part of IA64 are the pretty colors.  Colors...dancing   before my eyes....  . Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!  @ Wait, I take that back.  I was wrong to think Alpha is better.  = Just because it was "higher" "performance"... "faster", more h= "scalable", more "reliable", and just plain sexier...doesn't s. mean we were right to defy the Light..Intel...  = I thank everyone for their poems and consolation.  The Intel  2 Lobotomy Probe (ILP) (TM) (C) didn't hurt at all..  	 Sincerly,i   Andy Grove's Bitch,R  	 IA69QUEENp   PS I Like EPIC Sized Hardware.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:46:11 -0500o, From: "Chief" <little.big.chief@prodigy.net>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World: Message-ID: <9h8ph7$b972$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com>  @ > Wait, I take that back.  I was wrong to think Alpha is better.> > Just because it was "higher" "performance"... "faster", more> > "scalable", more "reliable", and just plain sexier...doesn't0 > mean we were right to defy the Light..Intel...  G If they "kill" Alpha I say we encourage some of these Eco Terrorists toe4 mobilize and persuade Intel to stop their evil ways.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:58:54 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World: Message-ID: <y%RZ6.6008$P5.2400050@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  5 Chief <little.big.chief@prodigy.net> wrote in messagen4 news:9h8ph7$b972$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...B > > Wait, I take that back.  I was wrong to think Alpha is better.@ > > Just because it was "higher" "performance"... "faster", more@ > > "scalable", more "reliable", and just plain sexier...doesn't2 > > mean we were right to defy the Light..Intel... > I > If they "kill" Alpha I say we encourage some of these Eco Terrorists too6 > mobilize and persuade Intel to stop their evil ways.    I I recommend anyone with thoughts of terrorism against Inhel, consider then$ alternative.  Do what I did today...  B I turned on my Sony Playstation II, powered by a SONY (tm) 128 bitG processor, put in "Crazy Taxi" (a non-M$ game), and ran over everyone IeH could see, envisioning it was Capellas & the Bored of Defectors.  It wasL great fun toppling those SUV's and smashing the pickups!!  I even capsized a semi at one point!  J After that, I went out and bought a non-Q AMD processor with NO Microsloth	 software!B  L After your frustrations are out (using only non-Inhel hardware), you'll haveJ circumvented any jail time, and then let's meet back here and discuss whatG we can really do to rectify this situation.  Class action lawsuit?  FTCt9 action?  Open-source alternatives?  FreeVMS?  More ideas?e       IA69Queen, I feel for you...       Screw-the-Q, Aarona --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:41:41 GMTn From: "Bill" <billmuy@home.com>a  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World? Message-ID: <FDSZ6.247806$p33.4997042@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>s  2 "IA69QUEEN" <ia69queen@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:d8e70602.0106251733.520df139@posting.google.com...h >r0 > Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards! >m  G I think you're selling yourself short.  After all, Alpha killed off oneaI company and in 4 years came close to killing off another.  I give Intel 4J years.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:43:16 -05000$ From: "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World2 Message-ID: <dFSZ6.454$%I.34290@eagle.america.net>  9 "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> wrote in messages4 news:y%RZ6.6008$P5.2400050@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...7 > Chief <little.big.chief@prodigy.net> wrote in messaget6 > news:9h8ph7$b972$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...D > > > Wait, I take that back.  I was wrong to think Alpha is better.B > > > Just because it was "higher" "performance"... "faster", moreB > > > "scalable", more "reliable", and just plain sexier...doesn't4 > > > mean we were right to defy the Light..Intel... > >hH > > If they "kill" Alpha I say we encourage some of these Eco Terrorists to8 > > mobilize and persuade Intel to stop their evil ways. >h >pG > I recommend anyone with thoughts of terrorism against Inhel, considere theo& > alternative.  Do what I did today... >fD > I turned on my Sony Playstation II, powered by a SONY (tm) 128 bitG > processor, put in "Crazy Taxi" (a non-M$ game), and ran over everyone0 I F > could see, envisioning it was Capellas & the Bored of Defectors.  It wasMC > great fun toppling those SUV's and smashing the pickups!!  I evenH
 capsized a > semi at one point! >nA > After that, I went out and bought a non-Q AMD processor with NO.
 Microsloth > software!y >kB > After your frustrations are out (using only non-Inhel hardware), you'll have G > circumvented any jail time, and then let's meet back here and discuss  whatD > we can really do to rectify this situation.  Class action lawsuit? FTC-; > action?  Open-source alternatives?  FreeVMS?  More ideas?. >n >. >p > IA69Queen, I feel for you... >- >p >  > Screw-the-Q, > Aaron- > --@ > Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html@ > Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/E > "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollon 440) >rG Clearly you need to fight back by dedicating yourself to the success ofhG one of the three competitors left:  AMD, Sun, IBM.  (yeah I know I left0	 out SGI).   ' I have a preference as to which one :-)j  
 del cecchi   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:35:38 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World( Message-ID: <9h8vnv$3t4$1@pyrite.mv.net>  / "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com> wrote in messagea, news:dFSZ6.454$%I.34290@eagle.america.net...   ...e  I > Clearly you need to fight back by dedicating yourself to the success ofoI > one of the three competitors left:  AMD, Sun, IBM.  (yeah I know I leftb > out SGI).i  L There could turn out to be a great many people who wind up feeling that way.  I If IBM doesn't cave like DECpaq did, the Power architecture seems to havetL the strength to stand up to anything HP comes up with (Intel's contributionsL being a non-issue if Merced is much indication).  Maybe they'll steal an SMTK page from Alpha to improve the chip-area (and power - small 'p') efficiency K of CMP (please don't get upset if IBM invented SMT in the first place:  I'm 2 just a software type and don't know these things).  G Makes one wonder whether Compaq wasn't planning this a year ago when it I canned NT on Alpha:  if *that* still existed, the *only* real uncontested?J market base for IA64 wouldn't (and would anyone really care that it had anJ IA32 wart on the chip then?  especially if McKinley doesn't?).  Of course,G the same could be true if AMD pulls off Hammer and Windows supports itsmH 64-bit extensions:  with an AMD processor that supports a 64-bit addressJ space *and* runs IA32 applications compatibly to cover the lowish end, SUNI plugging along doing what it's always done, and Power spanning everythinge" *but* the low end, who needs IA64?  G Perhaps just wishful thinking, but it beats shooting the Q BoD (and I'da/ rather they died a slow, painful death anyway).e   - bill   >t) > I have a preference as to which one :-)  >t > del cecchi   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:04:18 GMTa, From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth)  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World1 Message-ID: <slrn9jg5dh.d9g.jra@dorothy.msas.net>o  6 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Bill turned    to Hawkeye and me and said:4 > "IA69QUEEN" <ia69queen@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:d8e70602.0106251733.520df139@posting.google.com...n2 > > Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards! > I > I think you're selling yourself short.  After all, Alpha killed off onenK > company and in 4 years came close to killing off another.  I give Intel 4d > years.   Excellent point.  :-)k   Cheers,s -- jra --  N Jay R. Ashworth                                                jra@baylink.com) Member of the Technical Staff     Baylinkh/ The Suncoast Freenet         The Things I ThinkaN Tampa Bay, Florida        http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 804 5015  L    OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:14:54 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) = Subject: Inappropriate assumptions (was: A kick in the pants)r3 Message-ID: <WcZYLkfgIaGu@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  [ In article <3B37A9DB.7E1C22BD@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t  1 > what did CPQ's stock do today, explode or tank?u   No.2  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:18 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>=$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment, Message-ID: <3B3787E9.99E1E36E@videotron.ca>   Sue Skonetski wrote: > G > Please look at this web site for some details on today's announcment.c  M My sincere condolescenses go to the VMS engineers as well as the Alpha group.a A very sad day.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:14:24 -04000- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment, Message-ID: <3B378D8D.55DA3DAC@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote: H > different attitude to converting to Intel as it's hard to believe thatL > anyone could take the view that converting software to run on Intel is not > commercially viable.  N People don't convert to a chip, they convert to an operating system.  The moveN to IA64 will force the few remaining VMS ISVs to spend money to get nothing inI return because the market will shrink to almost 0 during the next 4 yearsi" (assuming Intel delivers on-time).  N Would you spend lots of money converting an application to the same OS but new= platform knowing that you will get no sales for a long time ?e  N If you're going to be spending money to port an application, you'll port it toP a popular OS with a stable future and an owner that has proven its capabilities.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:02:09 -0500k1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment' Message-ID: <3B3798C1.D1F1FAF6@fsi.net>o   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > 2 > In article <n0HZ6.77$rc5.3672@news.cpqcorp.net>,: >     "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: > >eN > > The new family of Compaq enterprise servers will support  Tru64 Unix, Open* > > VMS, and NonStop Kernel, complementing= > > the company's market leadership in Windows 2000 and Linux " > >                              . > >lK >    That's good news, but not complete enough. Will *every* Compaq productaG > which is sold for Alpha VMS today ( or last week ) be ported to IA64?s  B Here's a better question: will there be VEST and/or AEST tools for+ translating VAX and Alpha images to Itanic?M   > WillM > they all be available by January 2004? Do they have commitments from OracleyK > to meet that schedule ( Oracle appear to be "excited" about Tru64 on IA64 K > but didn't mention if they cared VMS would be available there )? Will allhG > existing LP licenses be transferrable to IA64 at no cost ( to systems0I > of comparable size)? [anyone who went through a VAX to Alpha transitionr  > will understand this question]  8 ...and those collectively are the $64 billion questions!  O >    Will Compaq provide assistance to 3rd party vendors to move their products2J > to IA64? Will IA64 ports be a straight "recompile and link" or will someQ > programs require substantial changes ( eg device drivers and privileged code )?t  H Too bad they laid off so many of their crack engineers in the last roundG of cuts. Wonder if any of 'em will actually be called back from lay-offr (what a concept!)...   -- e David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE SystemsP http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:07:06 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>=$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment' Message-ID: <3B3799EA.5BAE4372@fsi.net>e   John Macallister wrote:n > F > Before becoming overexcited (or doom-laden) about any Alpha to IntelH > conversion it may be helpful to consider a comparison of the Alpha and > Itanium instruction sets.  > C > The VAX->Alpha transition was relatively painless for most (99%?)b > well-written user code.  > I > The reason that some packages were not converted completely from VAX toSJ > Alpha was not the difficulty of conversion but rather that the companiesL > concerned did not believe it to be commercially worthwhile. There may be aH > different attitude to converting to Intel as it's hard to believe thatL > anyone could take the view that converting software to run on Intel is not > commercially viable.  A The problem, as I see it, is which Itanic systems will be OpenVMSt@ capable once the port is complete? The majority or the minority?  @ Unless the goal of porting is to "live within limits", I find itF dubious, at best, that the majority of Itanic systems of that day will; be OpenVMS-capable given past experience (i.e., "Emerald").    -- u David J. Dachtera3 dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/I  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.3   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:36:52 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment+ Message-ID: <3B37A0DC.17B8494@videotron.ca>   E > > The VAX->Alpha transition was relatively painless for most (99%?)  > > well-written user code.e  L Yeah, like all the various gateways I have written to connect message routerI to various external systems.  The code might be portable to Alpha, but itaI can't run on Alpha because Digital had abandooned messaging as a vertical,H application and didn't port Message Router nor (for a long time) provideT UPGRADE possibilities to that Mailbus400 thing (one had to buy a brand new license).  L This is why those still running All-in-1 usually have a couple fo vaxes left to run message router.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:04:18 GMTe. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment: Message-ID: <SrPZ6.5027$P5.2255574@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B3787E9.99E1E36E@videotron.ca... > Sue Skonetski wrote: > >oI > > Please look at this web site for some details on today's announcment.  > H > My sincere condolescenses go to the VMS engineers as well as the Alpha group. > A very sad day.Q  L Indeed.  I'm sure most, if not all, of the Alpha engineers are familiar withI the www.faceintel.com site, and I feel very sorry for them, as I felt foro their compadres at FAB6.  L The VMS engineers will be busy -- early estimates indicate that 1/3rd of theL workforce will be dedicated to porting to IA64.  That's 1/3rd fewer products for the next several years.g  E I read the news this morning, sent a couple emails, got a gnawing guttF reaction, felt nauseous, and decided to take a sick day.  I went home,G started up Crazy Taxi on the PS2, and ran over every pedestrian, rolleddG every SUV (envisioning Michael Capellas driving them) and slammed everyaJ pickup (envisioning the Q's bored of defectors driving them.)  That didn'tG help.  So I went out and bought an AMD system (NOT a Compaq box).  That H helped a little.  I then got on the bike and rode 25 miles.  That didn't help.e  L I'm still about to throw up.  This is worse than I felt when NT was nixed on
 the Alpha.  K I now wonder how I'll pay for my kids' college educations.  I guess I couldRJ sell the PS2 and invest in Dell stock.  Or better yet, the Inhel monopoly.   Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:54:08 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment' Message-ID: <3B37CF20.B4452A30@fsi.net>t   Alphaman wrote:e > [snip]< > I now wonder how I'll pay for my kids' college educations.  + Aaron (and anyone else who feels the same),.  D If you're serious about that, please contact me privately. I have an idea I'd like to run past you.  8 This offer is open to EVERYONE, not just U.S. residents!   -- y David J. Dachtera0 dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:55:26 -0400o  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>$ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment6 Message-ID: <1010625194909.38769D-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On 25 Jun 2001, Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  3 > In article <n0HZ6.77$rc5.3672@news.cpqcorp.net>,  : >     "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: > > N > > The new family of Compaq enterprise servers will support  Tru64 Unix, Open* > > VMS, and NonStop Kernel, complementing= > > the company's market leadership in Windows 2000 and Linuxo" > >                              . > > K >    That's good news, but not complete enough. Will *every* Compaq productnL > which is sold for Alpha VMS today ( or last week ) be ported to IA64? WillM > they all be available by January 2004? Do they have commitments from OraclefK > to meet that schedule ( Oracle appear to be "excited" about Tru64 on IA64iK > but didn't mention if they cared VMS would be available there )? Will all-G > existing LP licenses be transferrable to IA64 at no cost ( to systemsaI > of comparable size)? [anyone who went through a VAX to Alpha transitionT  > will understand this question] > O >    Will Compaq provide assistance to 3rd party vendors to move their products2J > to IA64? Will IA64 ports be a straight "recompile and link" or will someQ > programs require substantial changes ( eg device drivers and privileged code )?  > M >    I don't expect the answers are necessarily available today, but I wonderfJ > how long it will be before such a detailed roadmap might be available soK > that customers can start planning their transition ( or exit ) strategey.fG > Personally I'd like to see a public beta test of IA64 VMS and layered G > products as soon as possible ( and cheap VMS capable IA64 systems for0G > development ) for *all* customers - not just CSA partners or the ilk.6F > The sooner customers can see this stuff for themselves the sooner we/ > can assess how viable the strategy is for us.  > P >    I'm sorry if this sounds overly negative. I think that overall the strategyM > is the only viable one - Alpha has been losing momentum and I don't see howdO > Compaq could have afforded to continue with it. It's just a shame they didn't M > realize this several years ago and start development then ( or did they andaI > just not tell anyone? ). In any case the next 2.5 years are going to ber > "interesting".  ? I've just taken Bill Todd to task for violating netiquette, buto	 "Me too".   B I don't think it sounds negative to lay down some ground rules you? believe they will have to follow to be successful.  It would beg? negative to state, right now, that they can't possibly do these.? things, Compaq, VMS, and western civilization are doomed, and ItC might as well get in my SUV, go down to the beach and start running B over all the baby seals I can find. ;-)  (I had to get this thread7 back on topic to the SUV/global warming stuff somehow.)S   -- d John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:06:05 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: Intel/Alpha announcment3 Message-ID: <Ch3WdvvmdoO0@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  k In article <SrPZ6.5027$P5.2255574@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:?  N > The VMS engineers will be busy -- early estimates indicate that 1/3rd of theN > workforce will be dedicated to porting to IA64.  That's 1/3rd fewer products > for the next several years.m  G That is inconsistent with Fred Kleinsorge's statement in this newsgroup:M that they were being given an increased number of people to work on the port..   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:29:21 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i Subject: Re: Itanium HW REF MAN , Message-ID: <3B37D761.7FDEBBD1@infopuls.com>   Tom Linden wrote:- >   > Anybody know ehere to get one?   Sorry, only the ashes left.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:55:31 GMT:$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> Subject: Re: Itanium HW REF MANd) Message-ID: <3B37FA2F.EA3D316D@wi.rr.com>g  E The chips that will be running VMS aren't even designed yet.  Are you 
 looking for aa! reference manual from the future?c   -scott   Tom Linden wrote:m    > Anybody know ehere to get one?   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 17:41:16 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)c2 Subject: JF Rants (was: The Secret Future of VMS")3 Message-ID: <po19VN7KAS$w@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3B37A338.A637F89F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:G > Mt Matco has alluded that he knows a lot more though NDAs and that we  > shouldn't worry. > O > For christs's sake COMPAQ, you've just announced the death of a platform, andfN > you expect us to have faith on some secret plans you won't reveal publicly ?  / I don't know what you think is the secret plan.A  : The Compaq press release is as clear as press releases go.< Do you want a schedule of when VMS will be released and what= the field test plan is ?  Fred Kleinsorge indicated that lotseA of folk inside Compaq just heard about this the same time we did.a  ? Believe it or not, those are the people who plan the schedules,c> and since they just got the overall marching orders, they have not finished their job yet.t  = I am sure the technical people to whom Fred alluded as takingn? part in the private discussions looked back at "how long did it A take to port to Alpha" as part of their consideration.  I am surenB nobody so elevated within Compaq as to be part of that elite group> is so naive as to believe that all software happens exactly on	 schedule.-  M > If Compaq has some grandiose plans for VMS, it better reveal them PUBLICLY h > *THIS WEEK*.  . They just did.  They plan to port it to IA-64.  F > Compaq failed to make a go at Alpha, but promised support for alpha.  6 My Alphas workfine, and although I have not needed it," I know field service is available.  A > Compaq failed to make a go at VMS but promised support for VMS..  F My copies of VMS work fine, and some of the recent ones even implement suggestions I made years ago.   P > Comapq now breaks its promise for Alpha and we're expected to beleive Compaq'sM > "don't worry be happy, we'll port VMS to IA64 and all will be well" ???????s  E If you got a roadmap that showed EV8 and that is what you were saving D for, you will have to buy an IA-64 instead.  If you buy an EV7, that will still be supported.  F > Why should anyone trust Compaq if the good stuff remains under NDA ?  G I don't know what this "good stuff" is.  Certainly there are plans thatsH have not been made yet, but if I were in Compaq's shoes I would be quiteG reluctant to share them with you, lest you demand immediate delivery asy	 with EV8.   / The opposite of static planning is flexibility.nD For Compaq to never change their plans would mean no DII-COE effort.  @ JF, exactly how many EV8 machines were you going to buy anyway ?E Are the EV7s you were going to buy in the meantime already on order ?    Larry Kilgallen=  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:21:10 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)RA Subject: Laptop VMS = Sunshine (was: Full port of VMS to Itanium)n3 Message-ID: <o0KUDvHtiudE@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  + And we have 18 months to save our pennies !e  z In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FE9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:F > Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who still wants an AlphaBook. :) > 
 > Regards, >  > Chris  > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developere > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i > 'a >    >  >> -----Original Message-----h9 >> From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]o >  >> Christopher Smith wrote:t > = >> > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic   >> being planned, we* >> > may see another VMS-capable notebook. > $ >> Excellent bit of sunshine, Chris! -- rN ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 22:24:37 -0700( From: kparris@my-deja.com (Keith Parris)' Subject: Re: Long distance VMS clusters-= Message-ID: <cb85fed2.0106252124.5e80b521@posting.google.com>0   jnchambl@texaschildrenshospital.org (Jesse Chambless) wrote in message news:<d92c63cc.0106220414.1ffc9683@posting.google.com>...B > We are planning on using Fibre Channel.  We will also be using 3H > member shadow sets as we plan exact copies of each node at each place.  @ Note that in addition to Fibre Channel, you'll also need anotherA interconnect that can pass SCS protocol traffic, as Fibre Channel E cannot do that, at least not anytime in the near future.  You can use C Gigabit Ethernet or FDDI over dark fiber, or DS-3 (T3) or ATM linkslC between GIGAswitches (or another vendor's bridges if you're brave).M  D How much storage will be shadowed across sites?  The number and sizeF of the disk units can affect how fast a full shadow copy operation can< be done to restore data redundancy after a site outage or an inter-site link failure.  G > The current computer room is in 1 building and houses all three 4100s E > and our storage.  We have completed the expansion of a 2nd buildingvF > and added a computer room on the 16th floor of that building.  It isH > across the street so approximately 3000 feet.  The 3rd site is plannedF > to be with an outside vendor housing the equipment.  They supply the# > space, we provide the management.l  F What kind of storage do you presently use?  If you've been using CI orE DSSI storage, you need to understand that with FC disks, you'll get aoB full shadow merge operation on all mounted shadowsets after a nodeE crashes.  Mini-merge support on FC will require VMS 7.3-1 and ACS 8.7oF on the HSG80s, we're told.  Node crashes are difficult to schedule :-)? so you need to know if the I/O impact of a full merge operationpF simultaneously on all cross-site shadowsets will adversely affect yourB application's I/O performance.  With 3-member sets, of course, the impact is greater.  ; In your contingency plans, it would be wise to plan for theeC possibility that you may lose both of the sites which are only 3000oF feet apart at the same time, due to some common hazard.  You'll have aB copy of your data safely residing at the remote site, but will youD have enough computing capacity to function with only 1/3 of your CPU power there?  E It would be best for each site to have separate, independent links touC each of the other 2 sites.  Basically, no site should depend in anywE way on any other site if possible.  You should also be able to managehB and control the cluster from any one of the 3 sites that survives.  D > We plan to talk with our Compaq representatives here, we have someF > good ones by the way, and pick their brains for ALL necessary help. 1 > We can also drive to headquarters if necessary.c  < Are you planning to purchase DTCS (Disaster Tolerant Cluster% Services), or roll your own solution?a  E If you choose to roll your own, then as far as system managment goes, E you'll need a console management system; you'll need a way to recovere? from a quorum hang (DECamds or Availability Manager at the very F least); you'll need a network management system or some other easy wayB to monitor the inter-site links, and a way of monitoring shadowsetE membership and such.  Compaq's CockpitMgr software is worth a seriousg@ look.  You'll need to develop very detailed procedures of how toD diagnose and handle any possible scenario of node, link, and storage? failures so your staff will know exactly what to do in a crisis 8 situation and not take a chance of ever losing the data.  E The DTCS package includes some consulting help.  If you roll your owno@ solution, you really need to get some consulting assistance fromB someone who's done disaster-tolerant clusters before, so you don't" have to learn things the hard way.   Keitha   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:03:33 GMTs2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)C Subject: Macro32 on IA64 (was: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencei1 Message-ID: <VyOZ6.124$rc5.4713@news.cpqcorp.net>   ` In article <mZzELpNNikIL@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes: ..> :   ...Macro-32 is what I use when I have to do something that@ :seems too akward to do in BASIC ( saves me having to use C) :-) :o0 :   I assume Macro-32 will be ported to IA64?...  J   Yes, we (OpenVMS Engineering) will need to have something available for J   these modules, and probably something in the form of a Macro32 compiler,I   likely with an IA64 GEM-like back-end object code generator -- why?  WeyJ   (OpenVMS Engineering) and many OpenVMS ISVs and end-users all depend on    the availability of Macro32.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   	--o  I   From my posting over in the "Compaq proves their incompetence" thread, rI   and specifically over in message <JqNZ6.122$rc5.4610@news.cpqcorp.net>:t      H   ...Based on a quick check of one of the larger of the source librariesE   of OpenVMS Alpha operating system code around, Macro32 leads C and h   Bliss32 modules. i       *.MAR: 3811      *.C:   3708s     *.B32: 2589i     *.ADA:  103B     *.B64:  132i     *.COM: 2006y  D   This particular library contains 24191 total modules, so the aboveD   information is clearly a subset of the languages in use -- and allG   of the modules resident in the source library are not what you might  +   ordinarily consider to be source modules.c  D   And yes, once we have the necessary compilers available, yes, the F   mechanical portion of the whole effort should progress along nicely.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:49:39 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t" Subject: Re: Marketing Rantings #3( Message-ID: <9h84e7$des$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 "Darren Peacock" <daz005@hotmail.com> wrote in message: news:iYDZ6.158251$ff.1221217@news-server.bigpond.net.au...  > VMS IA64 Low cost workstation. > < > My money is on the announcement internally on June 25 USA. >e, > Wintel is about to get a serious shake-up. >vI > Java on VMS gives us back world class development products product like I > Borland Jbuilder, Apache Org, gives us state of the art Jakarta Projectt > products. Tomcat,James,JmeteraL >  And COE gives us the opportunity to give people an opportunity to look at a4E > lower TCO than most Server PLatforms, and the Application vendors a  seriousrJ > alternative to easily port their applications  and of course the 20 year
 > commitment.s >-5 > It all sounds like a great plan is coming together.   K Talk about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  You really needa$ to get in better touch with reality.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:54:01 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>V" Subject: Re: Marketing Rantings #3, Message-ID: <3B37C109.961109B6@infopuls.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:  > X > In article <3B33F0F6.96F2BBA6@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:J > > Sys Admin with several commercial UNIXes including OSF/1 slash DigitalL > > Unix slash Name of the Month) was by neccesity/force.  I had heard about > . > Looks like the next name for Tru64 is LINUX!   Try64?  " TIA64? (like in Thanks In Advance)  	 TruIntel?-   Tru2004?   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 01 16:50:46 EDT! From: smithp01@mcrc16.med.nyu.eduR Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.1- Message-ID: <iUnUhSEBWWoS@mcrc16.med.nyu.edu>g  a In article <3b324568.107211411@news.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:,E > Thanks to Colin Blake, a new Mozilla image is now available to make F > Mozilla V0.9.1 work with MultiNet V4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3.  The newA > image is LIBNSPR4.SO, which replaces that image in your Mozilla  > installation directory.s   Thanks for the help!  M A question for the Mozilla experts: According to info I got from the bugtrak hM LDAP was put into 0.9.1, but I can't find it.  Or, rather I can find a scrap eJ of a place that the LDAP server info should go, which is on the page that L account info is set up, but the actual window to enter the info is missing. L Is this a "real" bug in 0.9.1? Or is it a "feature" of the VMS distribution?  L +------------ 8F EF 51 4E 4F 23 22 AF  6A 41 D6 C0 AE 31 B1 82 ------------+L |Ross Smith, Academic Computing (RCR), NYU-SoM, 550 First Ave, NY, NY 10016|L |E-Mail:  SMITHP01@MED.NYU.EDU   Phone:  (212)263-5356:  FAX: (212)263-8139|L +-------------- <http://www.med.nyu.edu/people/P.Smith.html> --------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:39:28 +0200s$ From: "ListSoft" <ListSoft@email.ee> Subject: New Software Announce' Message-ID: <3b37af36$1@news.estpak.ee>r  " News Bulk Poster has been updated! Now 3 programs in one !l. News reader /bulk poster, includes HTML editor and e-Mail collector.e  7 Download it at http://www.hot.ee/listsoft/nbp_setup.exey: Screenshot - http://www.hot.ee/listsoft/nbp_screenshot.gif   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:31:28 GMTI. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> Subject: Ode to Alphar: Message-ID: <kRPZ6.5060$P5.2278849@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  I An original dirge by your's truly, inspired by great minds building greatsL things only to be cut down by small minds that couldn't grasp greatness when# it was handed to them on a platter.-      %  There once was a 'puter named Alpha,e(  Of which none could boast to be faster,   'til sadly one day   marketing blundered away!  Alpha to the computer hereafter.s    F (Sorry, my meter's all mucked up.  Can't seem to think straight today. Odd...)n  I To all Alpha engineers everywhere, everywhen: my sincerest admiration and G respect for a job very well done.  You did what others said couldn't beuK done.  Do not feel despondent, do not let the failings of others around youlK diminish for one femtosecond the great things that you have accomplished inaK the last 13+ years.  Hold your heads high.  I am sure that your competitorsmK are all breathing a collective sigh of relief that Alpha was finally killednI by marketing buffoons, because it could NEVER have been killed because ofk/ its technical merits.  You did something GREAT..  > I, for one, admire you greatly for what you have accomplished.  
 Respectfully,- Aaron- --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:15:37 -0400a( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: Ode to Alphau+ Message-ID: <3B37D429.AE25B32B@bigfoot.com>t  C It is my hope that you do not change your moniker.  To us, you wille always be: Alphaman    HM   Alphaman wrote:h > K > An original dirge by your's truly, inspired by great minds building great N > things only to be cut down by small minds that couldn't grasp greatness when% > it was handed to them on a platter.  > ' >  There once was a 'puter named Alpha,s* >  Of which none could boast to be faster, >   'til sadly one day >   marketing blundered away# >  Alpha to the computer hereafter.b > H > (Sorry, my meter's all mucked up.  Can't seem to think straight today.	 > Odd...)- > K > To all Alpha engineers everywhere, everywhen: my sincerest admiration and I > respect for a job very well done.  You did what others said couldn't begM > done.  Do not feel despondent, do not let the failings of others around youkM > diminish for one femtosecond the great things that you have accomplished in M > the last 13+ years.  Hold your heads high.  I am sure that your competitors5M > are all breathing a collective sigh of relief that Alpha was finally killedlK > by marketing buffoons, because it could NEVER have been killed because of71 > its technical merits.  You did something GREAT.7 > @ > I, for one, admire you greatly for what you have accomplished. >  > Respectfully,s > Aaront > --@ > Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html@ > Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/J > "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:08:09 -0400 ( From: "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu>* Subject: Offical Compaq/Intel Announcement/ Message-ID: <tjf31fal1esi97@corp.supernews.com>t  B Today, Compaq and Intel agreed accelerate the availability of nextK generation enterprise servers based on the Intel Itanium* processor family.eF The result will be a broad range of 64-bit Compaq servers that deliverK unparalleled performance and price/performance to our customers -- all on ae# single microprocessor architecture.s   Under the agreement:  < We will consolidate our entire 64-bit family of servers ontoJ the Itanium architecture by 2004. In one bold stroke, we are extending ourJ 10 years of leadership in 64-bit computing for the next decade and beyond.L We will continue our current Alpha roadmap for the next few years to advanceL system performance (EV6 extensions, EV7 and EV7 speedups) prior to launchingD our Itanium-based systems. We will also design and build new NonStopH Himalaya systems based on MIPS chip technology. As we already announced,G our first 64-bit Itanium-based ProLiant server will be available in theq third quarter this year.  6 We will port the complete Compaq operating systems andC applications portfolio to Itanium-based enterprise servers. We willyJ immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop Kernel operatingI systems and development tools to the Itanium architecture. We had already F planned wide support for both Windows 2000 and Linux for Itanium-based servers.  9 Compaq will transfer significant Alpha microprocessor andIG compiler technology, tools and resources to Intel. Members of the AlpharK microprocessor and compiler engineering team will become employees of Intelo) -- some immediately and others over time.a  1 Compaq and Intel have agreed to joint engineering C development on parallel and supercomputing technology. We will workmK together to develop technology for the high performance technical computingf. market, where Compaq is now the market leader.  D By consolidating our high performance enterprise servers on a singleH microprocessor architecture we will simplify our product offerings. ThisL also enables us to focus our investments on those areas where we deliver the greatest value:=   * Systems engineering=$ * High performance operating systems * Fault tolerancet * Clustering * Services, and, * Solutions=  I During the next few years, the best choice for high-performance computing-K solutions will continue to be Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS running on AlphaServernK systems. We will execute and even accelerate our committed product roadmapsFG to insure that our customers can continue to buy high performance, highrH availability Alpha systems and plan a smooth transition to Itanium-basedE systems. The first Itanium-based system for Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS ish planned for 2003.d  D Most important of all, we're creating great value for our customers.E They're getting the best of both worlds: advanced systems engineering,G expertise from Compaq and leading microprocessor design and world-classr  volume manufacturing from Intel.  ' The benefits for our customers include:   E * The best 64-bit technology today with Alpha, Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMSyF * The most fault tolerant systems today and in the future with NonStop Himalaya and NonStop Kernel B * The most compelling roadmap to the next generation 64-bit server# technology at the best price pointst? * A simplified, flexible systems architecture based on a single= microprocessor architecture=A * High-performance solutions based on industry standard economicsiB * Increased performance, price/performance and application supportH * Protection and extension of the investments our customers have made in1 Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop Kernel solutions.j   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:12:01 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)mD Subject: Re: Pathworks or AdvancedServer for Hobbyist? Alternatives?3 Message-ID: <Nm0toJtPj8Bq@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  3 In article <2WPX6.1609$fi2.50041@news.cpqcorp.net>,W5 "Brad McCusker" <Brad.McCuskerSP@Mcompaq.com> writes: D > PATHWORKS and Advanced Server are not part of the hobbyist program= > due to contractual licensing issues with the source vendor.a >S= > External Authentication, Login validation, management of NTtD > Servers via DCL will all work without license.  But file and print! > sharing does require a license.   I And the last time that I checked, the cost of a commercial file and print)J license was not out of reach of a hobbyist, unless you have a massive home	 site :-).   H The ammount of licenses needed depend on how many concurrent connections that you want to have.  ? > "Roland Haider" <roland.haider@at.bosch.com> wrote in messagep2 > news:9gl47b$7sc$1@proxy.fe.internet.bosch.com...	 >> Hello,u >>? >> I finally started integrating my VMS Computers with the rest 4 >> of my small home-network ( HP-UX, WinNT, Win311).E >> Therefore the preferred way would be a SMB server e.g. Pathworks 6t >> or Advanced Server.A >> Though I couldn't find a proper license on the list of layeredcE >> products included in the hobbyist license, I gave it a try, hoping * >> it would be included in the OS license.   -Johne Personal Opinion Onlyi wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:42:54 -0500 3 From: "Jay E. Morris" <morris@thorin.brooks.af.mil>.' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.l, Message-ID: <9h7tlh$bnm$1@leo.brooks.af.mil>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca... > Rob Young wrote:K > >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone through thissG > >         once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a ton of   > >         VAX stuff out there. >uG > The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transition tot Alphae: > than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition. >yH > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement.E > Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chipt because F > Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in the market.l >nJ Well, Alpha technology is being incorporated into the IA64 so there's hope0 of major inprovements.  Can you say "AlphaBorg"?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:39:28 GMTC- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>d' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.oD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251430450.16346-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > Mister Matco,t > , > Hopefully your dog Muttco is doing well... > N > However, considering the rumours floating around, I have a question for you. > N > The 180 days of transformation memo has been made public. This memo does notN > seem to bode well for VMS and Alpha. Yet, you have stated that VMS customers > have nothing to worry about. > 6 > You obviously have additional information, correct ?   Absolutely, but under NDA.   > P > Based *ONLY* on that 180 day memo, do you agree that VMS customers have reasonJ > to fear a long period of uncertainty during some form of transition to a > industry standard platform ?  G Seems to me that the memo stated Compaq's commitment to OpenVMS. And ofoG couse, the port to IA-64 is something that people have wanted for quiteeH some time. VMS will have a much larger addressable market, assuming thatD the port goes well (it should take 18 months at max) and that CompaqD maintains ISV support. If the OS port goes smoothly, and VMS becomesD more widely adopted, ISVs will have more of a reason to port to VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:21:57 -0400c' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.5( Message-ID: <9h82q9$9ul$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Terry C Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in message> news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251430450.16346-100000@world.std.com...   ...d  B > Seems to me that the memo stated Compaq's commitment to OpenVMS.  L Just like Compaq's commitment to NT on Alpha.  And now Alpha itself.  I saidJ a couple of years ago that Compaq showed every sign of not wanting to be aI hardware or software company (in any development sense:  they're happy towH assemble and sell things developed elsewhere).  I wonder how many peopleG will be willing to bet their corporations' futures that I was only half  right.    And ofrI > couse, the port to IA-64 is something that people have wanted for quite- > some time.  < Only because Compaq seemed intent in letting Alpha stagnate.  >  VMS will have a much larger addressable market, assuming thatF > the port goes well (it should take 18 months at max) and that Compaq > maintains ISV support.  F Bullshit.  Compaq doesn't just have to maintain ISV support, it has toJ convince at least a large percentage of VMS's ISVs to perform a major portI themselves (in the same time frame) - at a time when most of them will beoK seriously asking themselves whether *any* further effort spent on VMS wouldoK be worthwhile given the real possibility that Compaq's commitment to VMS is L about the same as its commitment to Alpha was (just on a different schedule)I and the even greater possibility that even if Compaq really stands behindtA VMS, its customer base won't (because of exactly the same fears).e  .  If the OS port goes smoothly, and VMS becomesF > more widely adopted, ISVs will have more of a reason to port to VMS.  I I'm afraid you've been sounding more and more like a corporate shill overrJ the past few months.  I realize that a good relationship with Compaq helpsL keep the information conduits open, but in the end it's people who rely upon2 your independence of judgement who pay your bills.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:21:54 GMTm- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>7' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.4D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251443110.16346-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   > Rob Young wrote:K > >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone through thisuG > >         once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a ton oft! > >         VAX stuff out there. s > M > The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transition to Alpha : > than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition. > H > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement.M > Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chip becausefN > Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in the market. >   I Compaq came to the conclusion that Alpha would not be able to sustain itsuG performance advantage beyond EV8. Hence they decided to cut a deal withrH Intel and transition from EV7 to IA-64. Since Intel is acquiring the EV8I design team (plus some GEM compiler developers and DECpaq's eight or nineeI years experienc with 64-bit systems and Oses), Intel can and will enhance I IA-64 with Alpha technology. (Lockstepping from EV7, potentially SMT from  EV8, etc). e  E As for Compaq, it can save a bunch of money on Alpha development, and-8 invest some of the cash in system-level differentiators.    M > Alpha was seen as the only possible true competitor to IA64. By killing it,U7 > Compaq is permanently changing the face of computing.  >   C The operative word is "was," as in past tense. Compaq's Alpha folksmE concluded that Alpha's role as a contender wouldn't last much longer.    And so it goes...    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:35:28 GMTe- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>s' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco. D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251634070.16346-100000@world.std.com>  ) On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jay E. Morris wrote:   < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca... > > Rob Young wrote:M > > >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone through this:I > > >         once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a ton ofN" > > >         VAX stuff out there. > > I > > The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transition to. > AlphaP< > > than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition. > >tJ > > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement.G > > Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chip 	 > becauseeH > > Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in the	 > market.i > >lL > Well, Alpha technology is being incorporated into the IA64 so there's hope2 > of major inprovements.  Can you say "AlphaBorg"? >  >s  ' No, but I can say IA-64: Alpha-Inside.     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:34:15 -0400y' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.p( Message-ID: <9h8aib$kc0$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Terry C Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in message> news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251443110.16346-100000@world.std.com...   ...n  K > Compaq came to the conclusion that Alpha would not be able to sustain itskI > performance advantage beyond EV8. Hence they decided to cut a deal with ) > Intel and transition from EV7 to IA-64.i  G Kind of reminiscent of DEC's conclusion that NT was the future and thatn: transitioning the customer base there was the thing to do.  J And one might guess of similar uncertainty.  AFAIK, Alpha has (or at leastL had) a better-defined (and some would say more believable) roadmap to futureJ performance increases than IA64 has, and unlike most of Intel's successfulE processors IA64 doesn't have IA32 compatibility to bolster its market7G penetration:  Itanium does have its IA32-wart-on-the-chip, but it's not I clear that Itanium has much to offer the marketplace nor that future IA64yE implementations will include that wart - or have any other compelling 
 advantage.  I With Alpha and Power competition in the mid-to-high range, SPARC plugging L uninspiringly but inexorably along in the mid-range, and IA32-compatible AMDL Hammer competition in the low-to-mid range, there was a definite possibilityK that IA64 would fall flat on its face (though Compaq's abandonment of NT onpK Alpha gave IA64 at least *one* guaranteed 64-bit market).  That possibilitynG *might* even still exist:  Power 4 is no slouch, and Windows has yet too6 prove itself outside (lowish-end) 32-bit environments.  !  Since Intel is acquiring the EV8eK > design team (plus some GEM compiler developers and DECpaq's eight or ninemK > years experienc with 64-bit systems and Oses), Intel can and will enhance2K > IA-64 with Alpha technology. (Lockstepping from EV7, potentially SMT from  > EV8, etc).  C The difficulty of combining SMT with EPIC has been noted elsewhere.c   >eG > As for Compaq, it can save a bunch of money on Alpha development, and8: > invest some of the cash in system-level differentiators.  K Compaq always seems to have a far stronger preference for saving money thanSK for undertaking any venture that might *make* money.  Not the best strategya for a technology company.    >u >yK > > Alpha was seen as the only possible true competitor to IA64. By killingt it,c9 > > Compaq is permanently changing the face of computing.y > >n >oE > The operative word is "was," as in past tense. Compaq's Alpha folksmG > concluded that Alpha's role as a contender wouldn't last much longer.e  ? Only because Compaq's management folks clearly wouldn't let it.e   >. > And so it goes...   G Yes:  with any luck, we soon won't have Compaq to kick around any more.e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:24:48 -0000l- From: wspencer@nospam.ap.org (Warren Spencer)i' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco. 3 Message-ID: <90CBB4DE3wspenceraporg@207.126.101.97>   0 shannon@world.std.com (Terry C Shannon) wrote in: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251634070.16346-100000@world.std.com>:    >  >8* >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jay E. Morris wrote: >s= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message2) >> news:3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca.... >> > Rob Young wrote:tI >> > >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone throughiH >> > >         this once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a* >> > >         ton of VAX stuff out there. >> >G >> > The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transitionp >> > to  >> Alpha= >> > than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition.i >> >> >> > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performanceG >> > improvement. Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a  >> > superior chip -
 >> becauseI >> > Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in thew
 >> market. >> >H >> Well, Alpha technology is being incorporated into the IA64 so there's8 >> hope of major inprovements.  Can you say "AlphaBorg"? >>   >> >h( >No, but I can say IA-64: Alpha-Inside.  >  >p  I Sounds like Intel finally found a way to buy the patents that it got its  ( hand smacked for violating 10 years ago.   ws       -- m <<< My opinions are my own >>>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:39:17 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.h, Message-ID: <3B37BD95.F52E75E9@infopuls.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > ^ > In article <3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > >tJ > > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement.O > > Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chip becauseM > @ > Alpha->IA64 may be seen by many as a cost/performance upgrade,G > especially for VMS users if it can be made to run on at least a large ! > subset of the systems shipping.c > B > Or it may be viewed as a purchase cost improvement.  Even if theG > performace is not the same a PC price can be a driving factor.  A lot-J > of the power of my 2 year old Pentium isn't in use; I only have a coupleI > apps which strain my 8 year old Alpha.  My work could easily be done onnG > an IA-64 that's just a bit faster than my Pentium, and a lot of other0  > folks can live with this, too. > I > Compaq has made a major commitment in engineering dollars in announcingtF > the port of VMS.  I don't know the IA-64, but if it's like any otherE > Intel descended from the 8086, they'll have to deal with call gatesMI > instead of exceptions to change modes, and virtual memory management byuI > page but memory protection by segment.  Those are no small issues.  I'dlJ > really like to hear from Compaq up front how they are going to deal withH > this (Mach maybe?).  Sounds like VMS engineering will have to hire.  I  > expect similar issues for NSK. > H > What I don't understand is Compaq's commitment to port Tru64.  Where'sH > the market for one more UNIX on what will be a popular platform?  TheyJ > can possibly get there first since Tru64 is absolutely 64 bit clean, butE > can they create and hold onto a lead better than DEC did by gettingl> > OSF/1 out on Alpha?  Why not just continue to resell SCO and > preconfigured Linux boxes? > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation ? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupIG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying2   Oracle.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:47:02 +0200m) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>9' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.n, Message-ID: <3B37BF66.E59CFD13@infopuls.com>   Terry C Shannon wrote: > & > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote: >  > > Mister Matco,n > >z. > > Hopefully your dog Muttco is doing well... > >1P > > However, considering the rumours floating around, I have a question for you. > >eP > > The 180 days of transformation memo has been made public. This memo does notP > > seem to bode well for VMS and Alpha. Yet, you have stated that VMS customers  > > have nothing to worry about. > >n8 > > You obviously have additional information, correct ? >  > Absolutely, but under NDA. >  > >sR > > Based *ONLY* on that 180 day memo, do you agree that VMS customers have reasonL > > to fear a long period of uncertainty during some form of transition to a  > > industry standard platform ? > I > Seems to me that the memo stated Compaq's commitment to OpenVMS. And ofiI > couse, the port to IA-64 is something that people have wanted for quite1J > some time. VMS will have a much larger addressable market, assuming thatF > the port goes well (it should take 18 months at max) and that CompaqF > maintains ISV support. If the OS port goes smoothly, and VMS becomesF > more widely adopted, ISVs will have more of a reason to port to VMS.  = Technically this makes much more sense than incorporating DIIa9 COE UNIX .... (you know what to do with the *four* dots).n  ? Technically it would be best to not migrate to IA63 but instead/8 re-design (if necessary) the base and to port to several< platforms especially PowerPC and ev. SPARC while keeping the
 Alpha branch.e  @ This would be a real commitment to VMS because it would allow to: use e.g. IBM their own HW for running VMS. Basically an OS> should be available on several HW platforms and if the port is@ done with some Mach kernel as DEC (?) did before supporting more( than one HW platform isn't out of scope.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:14:29 GMTo- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>c' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.eD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251911140.16249-100000@world.std.com>  * On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Warren Spencer wrote:  2 > shannon@world.std.com (Terry C Shannon) wrote in< > <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251634070.16346-100000@world.std.com>:  >  > >  > > , > >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jay E. Morris wrote: > >n? > >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message + > >> news:3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca...o > >> > Rob Young wrote:yK > >> > >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone throughrJ > >> > >         this once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a, > >> > >         ton of VAX stuff out there. > >> >I > >> > The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transitionu
 > >> > to 
 > >> Alpha? > >> > than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition.  > >> >@ > >> > Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performanceI > >> > improvement. Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on aa > >> > superior chip   > >> becauseK > >> > Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in the  > >> market. > >> >J > >> Well, Alpha technology is being incorporated into the IA64 so there's: > >> hope of major inprovements.  Can you say "AlphaBorg"? > >>   > >> > >t* > >No, but I can say IA-64: Alpha-Inside.  > >e > >a > K > Sounds like Intel finally found a way to buy the patents that it got its l* > hand smacked for violating 10 years ago.    H Indeed they did. Plus a heck of a lot of intellectual property developed@ subsequent to the Case of Pentium Pro and the Purloined Patents.  J Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed, but suffice it to say that1 Intel compensated CPQ for the assets in question.t   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:47:03 GMT- From: ejheller@aol.com.nojunk (Edward Heller)-B Subject: Re: Remote connection error on OVMS 7.2 and Oracle 7.3...: Message-ID: <20010625144703.12057.00002175@ng-mq1.aol.com>   "Phil Howell" wrote:; >"Edward Heller" <ejheller@aol.com.nojunk> wrote in messagen5 >news:20010620074513.11563.00000345@ng-fc1.aol.com...d >> >"Phil Howell" wote:uO >> >Something similar happened to us when we went from 7.1 to 7.2-1 and ucx 4.2hL to tcpip 5.1 This is not the answer you want but we had to upgrade to oracle 7.3.4 You may want to   >> >$tcpip show dev /full bg6656= >> >and check that the port is the same as in your .ora filesi >> >Phil> >> >"Edward Heller" <ejheller@aol.com.nojunk> wrote in message8 >> >news:20010619102106.10170.00000082@ng-md1.aol.com...J >> >> First, please note that I realize this may seem like a question from 1999,rI >> >> however we weren't broke so we were reluctant to "fix". We recentlyo upgradedM >> >> our OpenVMS Alpha from 7.1 to 7.2-1. This also included the change from  UCX toM >> >> TCPIP. When we did that, our Java applications that used to communicatej justO >> >> fine with the Oracle database (v 7.3.2.3.2) stopped working. The listenert traceaG >> >> file indicates that the connection from the remote application isn connecting.eN >> >> When the shadow program is created, the IPC message returns what I thinkI >> >is a reference to Port 0. Following is that section of the trace filep (apololgies in7 >> >> advance for wrap confusion - the lines are long):h >> >>e >> >> command = establish $ >> >> (ADDRESS=(PROTOCOL=beq)(ENVS=)D >> >> ARGV0=DKA200:[ORACLE7.NETWORK.ADMIN]ORASRV_NETV2_myDB.COMmyDB)B >> >> (ARGS='(LOCAL=NO)')(GLOBAL_DBNAME=myDB.world)(SID_NAME=myDB)N >> >> (PROGRAM=DKA200:[ORACLE7.NETWORK.ADMIN]ORASRV_NETV2_myDB.COM)(TIMEOUT=0) >> >> (PRESPAWN_MAX=10)) >> >> connecting...r3 >> >> NT layer IPC connection has been established.   >> >> doing connect handshake...J >> >> REDIR="(ADDRESS=(PROTOCOL=tcp)(DEV=_BG6656:)(HOST=x.x.x.x)(PORT=0))"( >> >> handshake is complete; redirecting >> >>uO >> >> I do not think this is correct, however, I am at a loss as to what is ther5 >> >> mechanism by which the port number is assigned.a >> >>sA >> >> Any thoughts (other than upgrading Oracle) are appreciated.s >> >> Edward Hellerl >> >> TransCore ITS : >> >> "All musings contained within are mine, mine alone." >> > >>L >> Is there something special about port 6656? I do have two devices (BG6583 anddD >> BG6587) that do correspond to the ports defined in the .ORA fles.9 >The bg6656 was the device from your trace (DEV=_BG6656:),  >the port number is 1526 or 1527 >Phil  >   > Been out of town. Ah, so it was. Did not notice that. Thanks. 
 Edward Hellere
 TransCore ITSe4 "All musings contained within are mine, mine alone."   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:04:57 -0400t  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Req VMS Tutorialh6 Message-ID: <1010625205702.38769G-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ( On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Hoff Hoffman wrote:  ] > In article <3b3754f0$1_3@news.arrakis.es>, "Jose Carlos Duclos" <duclos@arrakis.es> writes:p6 > :I'm looking for a good VMS-VAX tutorial in Internet > K >   Please check the OpenVMS FAQ -- specifically the section "DOC11. Where t; >   can new users find tutorial information about OpenVMS?"l > J >   Note: "VMS-VAX" is more commonly refered to as "OpenVMS VAX", and thisH >   trivia may well help you better understand when you are reading the  >   available materials.  F Only among the Compaqly Correct.  To all others, the "open" is silent. ;-)   ? Seriously, the name change from "VMS" to "OpenVMS" was purely adC marketing move, but totally confused potential customers.  (CurrentiA customers who had actually used it new it was the same thing, but = new customers or customers who hadn't upgraded thought it was-? something totally different and were afraid of a huge migrationp@ effort.  IIRC, the first version to say "OpenVMS" on the box and? cover letter still said "VMS" in "$ show system" and in all thed@ docs.  The next minor release changed the text string in "$ show= system" and a few messages printed at boot time, and the nexti? major release provided a copy of the printed documentation withe9 all the "VMS"'s changed to "OpenVMS".  The names are used > interchangable, and when they signify anything at all, it just? means someone is refering to a really old version of VMS or is, 9 like me, too lazy to type "Open" when they don't have to.1   > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   -- n John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:56:47 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)h Subject: Re: Req VMS Tutorialt3 Message-ID: <09tvOG4xPyVl@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  Y In article <1010625205702.38769G-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:r* > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Hoff Hoffman wrote: > ^ >> In article <3b3754f0$1_3@news.arrakis.es>, "Jose Carlos Duclos" <duclos@arrakis.es> writes:7 >> :I'm looking for a good VMS-VAX tutorial in Internets >> lL >>   Please check the OpenVMS FAQ -- specifically the section "DOC11. Where < >>   can new users find tutorial information about OpenVMS?" >> aK >>   Note: "VMS-VAX" is more commonly refered to as "OpenVMS VAX", and this-I >>   trivia may well help you better understand when you are reading the l >>   available materials.m > H > Only among the Compaqly Correct.  To all others, the "open" is silent.  A No, read carefully.  Can you really say you hear people referringeA to it as VMS-VAX ?  I have never heard that, and I have heard the  use of OpenVMS VAX.   ? If the question had said VAX/VMS, I would have agreed with you.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:22:58 -0400n' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>  Subject: Re: Req VMS Tutorialn< Message-ID: <howard-69E0CE.21225825062001@enews.newsguy.com>  6 In article <1010625205702.38769G-100000@Ives.egh.com>,"  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:  H > Only among the Compaqly Correct.  To all others, the "open" is silent. > ;-)r  ' Oh, I like that!  Think I'll borrow it.n --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:50:49 -0400-  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Req VMS Tutorialt6 Message-ID: <1010625224822.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On 25 Jun 2001, Larry Kilgallen wrote:  [ > In article <1010625205702.38769G-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:g, > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Hoff Hoffman wrote: > > ` > >> In article <3b3754f0$1_3@news.arrakis.es>, "Jose Carlos Duclos" <duclos@arrakis.es> writes:9 > >> :I'm looking for a good VMS-VAX tutorial in Interneto > >> aN > >>   Please check the OpenVMS FAQ -- specifically the section "DOC11. Where > > >>   can new users find tutorial information about OpenVMS?" > >> dM > >>   Note: "VMS-VAX" is more commonly refered to as "OpenVMS VAX", and this K > >>   trivia may well help you better understand when you are reading the e > >>   available materials.n > > J > > Only among the Compaqly Correct.  To all others, the "open" is silent. > C > No, read carefully.  Can you really say you hear people referringfC > to it as VMS-VAX ?  I have never heard that, and I have heard thee > use of OpenVMS VAX.  > A > If the question had said VAX/VMS, I would have agreed with you.   > Aha!  Dyslexia strikes.  Of course, VAX/VMS (never VAX-VMS and certainly not VMS-VAX...)v   --   John Santose Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:13:54 +0200m) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Reward for the first of the next 50 posts: which company	shouldbuy VMS VMS Vg, Message-ID: <3B37C5B2.A91292F2@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] > C > > UNIX vs VMS fight outside this NG. I really feel sad about that'A > > people who don't know nothing about VMS are fighting for UNIXo> > > .... (you know what I'm asking for to do with these *four*> > > letter replacement dots) in this NG. This is an incredible2 > > insult of VMS if an OS can be insulted at all. > J > Some people -- outside of this newsgroup -- will fight for unix, becauseJ > it's the best option they know of.  That's the truly sad part... that soK > many people are completely unaware that VMS could be a real and permanentu/ > solution to some of their technical problems.j > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrisw > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer4 > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  > '>   Yup.  ? My words weren't clear on that point: I never had a VMS vs UNIX ? fight outside this NG. And I don't understand why people defendt> UNIX in *this* NG who don't know nothing about VMS besides the name of this NG.  ; To be able to run VMS on affordable and easily available HWF@ would be the only positive point I see in the Intel-Compaq deal.? But as some other posters pointed out Compaq will find a way to @ screw this up. And Compaq has to find a way because it otherwise> may threaten Micro$hit. At least they can increase the licence? fees. There are multiple ways to kill VMS' market opportunitiese9 to protect Micro$hit. As long as VMS is part of Compaq org@ another similar company there will be problems in increasing the VMS market share.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:33:54 -0400r( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>& Subject: Sales and Marketing Lesson #1+ Message-ID: <3B3802A2.9D4B5B50@bigfoot.com>u  F Okay, for those of you who still don't get it, a little quiz.  This isB just basic stuff.  Be honest with yourself.  If you don't know the< answer then you may need to re-think some of that optimism.   < Q: How can you tell when a salesman is lying? (answer below)    B And by extension of course, how can you tell when Compaq is lying?                                                                         A: His lips are moving.s       HM   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:59:57 -0400y( From: "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu>1 Subject: Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMSg/ Message-ID: <tjf2i717r2lk56@corp.supernews.com>i  K I've downloaded txt2pdf 5.0.  I have Perl 5 installed on my OpenVMS (Alpha)iE system.  The VMS doc file included with txt2pdf is bad.  I can't makeeK anything work.  Does anyone have an easier procedure to get txt2pdf workingl on the OVMS system?   1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagea# news:3B35EDF3.D9DF4DC1@wi.rr.com...w > txt2pdf from Sanface > www.sanface.como >o > Thomas Steuver wrote:o >rK > > Is there a package like Adobe Acrobat that runs on OVMS Alpha to createe PDFo > > files from text files? > >8 > > Thanks,h > > Thomas Steuver  > > Northern Kentucky University >c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:24:27 GMTi$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>1 Subject: Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMSo) Message-ID: <3B37F2E6.3211382B@wi.rr.com>(  7 Have you tried contacting Sanface directly for support?e   -scott   Thomas Steuver wrote:S  M > I've downloaded txt2pdf 5.0.  I have Perl 5 installed on my OpenVMS (Alpha) G > system.  The VMS doc file included with txt2pdf is bad.  I can't make M > anything work.  Does anyone have an easier procedure to get txt2pdf workinga > on the OVMS system?o > 3 > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagen% > news:3B35EDF3.D9DF4DC1@wi.rr.com...l > > txt2pdf from Sanface > > www.sanface.com- > >- > > Thomas Steuver wrote:- > >-M > > > Is there a package like Adobe Acrobat that runs on OVMS Alpha to createn > PDFp > > > files from text files? > > > 
 > > > Thanks,  > > > Thomas Steuver" > > > Northern Kentucky University > >e   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:08:09 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)m" Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs3 Message-ID: <KkqGRxRBeFIb@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  j In article <Xns90C9983B298Aguysherrmailcom@207.126.101.100>, Guy Sherr <guy.sherr-nospam@mail.com> writes:4 > "Bob Campbell" <robertwcampbell@home.com> wrote in6 > news:ZlTY6.98971$L4.11615899@news1.rdc1.az.home.com: >mK >> I looking for the DCL code that would pick up the current version of therI >> command file if the command file had already been submitted to batch &e >> pending.  >>K >> I can't remember if it use the lexical f$environment or another lexical.u >>/ >> Has anyone used this and for the syntax was?o >> >> >?L > f$environment("procedure") will return the fully qualified filename of theK > command procedure executing at the time. Squeezing it into something that 6 > points to the most recent version, in a single call: >u- > f$element(0,";",f$environment("procedure"))t  I Try f$parse(";0",f$environment("procedure")) instead.  It will understando ODS-5 file systems.h   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:50:29 -0500l* From: "Sundaram P" <sundaramp@hotmail.com> Subject: TCL in OpenVMSu1 Message-ID: <quNZ6.123$rc5.4605@news.cpqcorp.net>s   Hi,e  3 I wrote a c program to create a new command in TCL.t  " The source for which is as follows  L ************************************************************random.c********7 *******************************************************i   #include "tcl.h"   #include <stdlib.h>e  E int RandomCmd(ClientData clientData,Tcl_Interp *interp,int argc, chard	 *argv[]);w  # int Myrand_Init(Tcl_Interp *interp)s   {d  = Tcl_CreateCommand(interp, "rand", RandomCmd,(ClientData)NULL,I (Tcl_CmdDeleteProc *)NULL);M   return TCL_OK;   }u  E int RandomCmd(ClientData clientData, Tcl_Interp *interp,int argc,chare *argv[])   {    int rand, error;   int range = 0;   if (argc > 2) {i  ) interp->result = "Usage: random ?range?";-   return TCL_ERROR;2   }    if (argc == 2) {  4 if (Tcl_GetInt(interp, argv[1], &range) != TCL_OK) {   return TCL_ERROR;l   }t   }    rand = random();   if (range != 0) {1   rand = rand % range;   }   $ sprintf(interp->result, "%d", rand);   return TCL_OK;   }t  L ************************************************************random.c********7 *******************************************************a  7 I created a shareable image using the following commandv  0 link random,myrand.opt/opt /shareable=myrand.exe   where myrand.opt iso  L ************************************************************myrand.opt******9 *********************************************************y   tclshr/shareable  9 symbol_vector=(Myrand_Init=Procedure,RandomCmd=Procedure)h  L ************************************************************myrand.opt******9 *********************************************************p      @ But when i load the exe in the tcl shell using the load command.   load myrand.exe myrand  ? the tcl shell is crashing and the following error is displayed.a  L ************************************************************systemerror*****: **********************************************************  ( %SYSTEM-F-IVLOGNAM, invalid logical name  / %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump followss  ' image module routine line rel PC abs PC   # 0 FFFFFFFF80476818 FFFFFFFF80476818   D TCLSHR TCLVMSLOAD TclLoadFile 7431 00000000000001AC 000000000008AABC  A TCLSHR TCLLOAD Tcl_LoadCmd 4535 0000000000000458 00000000000849C8d  ? TCLSHR TCLBASIC Tcl_Eval 8251 00000000000015D4 000000000008E574e  J TCLSHR TCLHISTORY Tcl_RecordAndEval 7239 0000000000000378 0000000000093778  > TCLSHR TCLMAIN Tcl_Main 2665 000000000000056C 000000000009602C  < TCLSH TCLAPPINIT main 1429 00000000000000B0 00000000000300B0  ; TCLSH TCLAPPINIT __main 0 000000000000005C 000000000003005C-   0 FFFFFFFF87BA53D4 FFFFFFFF8  L ************************************************************systemerror*****: **********************************************************  - The help /message command gives the followingi  D ************************************************************Help forD Error***************************************************************   IVLOGNAM, invalid logical name  ! Facility: SYSTEM, System Servicesr  I Explanation: A name string exceeds the maximum length permitted, or has at  ; length of 0, or is longer than the specified maximum lengthp  > logical name string, table name string, or equivalence string.  8 Logical names are limited to a length of 255 characters;  9 global section names are limited to 43 characters; common0  ; event flag, process names, and cluster names are limited to   < 15 characters. An error can be returned when a name table is  < defined and the name for the new name table contains invalid   characters.   F User Action: If the error occurs during command processing, verify the  ; command. If the error occurs during execution of a program,a  < check that the character string descriptors pointing to name  % strings indicate the correct lengths.e  D ************************************************************Help forD Error***************************************************************  " I'm using TCL7.5 on OpenVms 7.2.1.  9 The same program works quite well in Tru64Unix . TCL v8.2t  8 when i create a shared image using the following command  * cc -shared random.c -ltcl -lm -o myrand.so   Can somebody please help me.   regardsL   Sundaram   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:33:26 GMT>+ From: Jeffrey Hobbs <JeffH@ActiveState.com>r Subject: Re: TCL in OpenVMSO/ Message-ID: <3B381F16.C568100A@ActiveState.com>y   Sundaram P wrote:> 	...5 > I wrote a c program to create a new command in TCL.I 	...9 > I created a shareable image using the following commandk 	...B > But when i load the exe in the tcl shell using the load command. 	...A > the tcl shell is crashing and the following error is displayed.t 	...$ > I'm using TCL7.5 on OpenVms 7.2.1.; > The same program works quite well in Tru64Unix . TCL v8.2r  < You might try a newer or different port of Tcl to VMS.  That> one may simply not have gotten 'load' to work (not having usedA VMS in zonks, I can't remember how one would do it correctly...).  There are two links at:e9 	http://tcl.activestate.com:8002/resource/software/ports/3   --  ,   Jeff Hobbs                     The Tcl Guy<   Senior Developer               http://www.ActiveState.com/,       Tcl Support and Productivity Solutions   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 13:43:12 -0700% From: jean@staffing.com (Jean Norton)C, Subject: TDMS/ACMS experts - Will this work?= Message-ID: <86377d2d.0106251243.68c5f7e6@posting.google.com>,  F I have a customer with TDMS/ACMS running on a VAX.  Somewhere, someoneE got the idea that the ACMS server applications can be migrated to the.E Alpha with a re-compile, link, etc, while the TDMS part would stay on4  the VAX with "distributed ACMS".  B 1. I've done my research and I can't find anything on "distributed ACMS".< 2. If this can be done...how does TDMS and ACMS communicate?C 3. If there is anyone that has done this before, please contact me!a   Thanks,o   Jean Norton? jean@staffing.comV 512 795 0800  E P.S. You may ask why someone would want to do this, and if you reallyp> want to know the answer, read on.  There is no funding for anyC upgrades for this customer for the next 2 years.  Any part of theirpD application that can be transferred to the Alpha (without additionalD purchases or programming time) will reduce software licensing costs,C since they have access to an Alpha with plenty of software licences D available.  If they can get it so TDMS is the only license needed onC the VAX, that ccould be their only expense, as they could eliminater@ their h/w maintenance contract as they have 2 other VAXen around! should they need any spare parts.S   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:27:28 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 0 Subject: Re: TDMS/ACMS experts - Will this work?/ Message-ID: <tjfels8t457c15@news.supernews.com>c  % This will work and it will work well.   2 "Jean Norton" <jean@staffing.com> wrote in message7 news:86377d2d.0106251243.68c5f7e6@posting.google.com...nH > I have a customer with TDMS/ACMS running on a VAX.  Somewhere, someoneG > got the idea that the ACMS server applications can be migrated to the-G > Alpha with a re-compile, link, etc, while the TDMS part would stay onn" > the VAX with "distributed ACMS". >pD > 1. I've done my research and I can't find anything on "distributed > ACMS".  K Try looking in the ACMS documentation.  It's a basic feature of ACMS.  It'sfG been many years since I've used ACMS but taking an ACMS application and.L making it distributed should be as simple as defining some logical names andK making sure you have configuration settings correct.  You shouldn't have touE touch the application.  Of course, there are things you can do in thesF application that will break distributed ACMS (like terminal I/O from aA server process).  Hopefully, you haven't done anything like that.a  > > 2. If this can be done...how does TDMS and ACMS communicate?  4 DECnet.  I don't know if TCP/IP is supported or not.  E > 3. If there is anyone that has done this before, please contact me!  >n	 > Thanks,s >i
 > Jean Nortont > jean@staffing.com> > 512 795 0800 >nG > P.S. You may ask why someone would want to do this, and if you reallye@ > want to know the answer, read on.  There is no funding for anyE > upgrades for this customer for the next 2 years.  Any part of theirbF > application that can be transferred to the Alpha (without additionalF > purchases or programming time) will reduce software licensing costs,E > since they have access to an Alpha with plenty of software licenceshF > available.  If they can get it so TDMS is the only license needed onE > the VAX, that ccould be their only expense, as they could eliminateaB > their h/w maintenance contract as they have 2 other VAXen around# > should they need any spare parts.r  J There's also a bit of a problem getting TDMS for Alpha.  I think there's aJ company that took over TDMS from Compaq and ported it to Alpha but I don't+ know if they ever got it working with ACMS.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:16:10 -0400l( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>6 Subject: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>a  G The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated - until now.  We all knewjF that under the Bush adminitration, executions would increase.  WhetherB you are for, or against capital punishment (pun intended) makes noH difference.  Make no mistake, VMS is on death row.  And when Compaq saysE that it is on schedule for execution of VMS on another platform, whatiD comes to mind is a sturdily built wooden one with a trap door, aboveG which an big inverted Q hangs.  Not even the banks and brokerages, withoG all their lawyers' concerted appeals will stay the hand of the hangman.   ? I'll be plain.  There is no incentive for Compaq to port VMS totD ANYTHING.  Wake up and smell the JAVA.  A little question to all theH Pollyannas in this newsgroup: How much do you think it will cost to moveG VMS to another platform?  There is no way to recoup this cost by new or G even existing VMS revenue.  It has become apparent to me over the years E that VMS people are a little paradoxical.  I saw what the market will E bear for VMS consulting rates stay about the SAME for good VMS people H for the last 10 years (adjusted for inflation).  The rates I get on UNIXE have been steadily climbing (until this year).  Is it that recruitersr? and HR people think that somehow VMS people are idiot savants? vH Intelligent enough to do a good job on VMS, but don't have the financialE acumen to negotiate a better price from a flood insurance salesman insB the Sahara?  I constantly wrestle with the question of whether VMSG people are desperate, or just plain stupid when it comes to money.  And2E of course I speaking generally.  There are those of you who know whateF you're worth and hold out for it, but as a group we do a piss poor job of demanding the $$$$.  G And now, back from our commercial. VMS has lived for many years on a DOnB NOT RESUSCITATE order, and because it has survived far longer thanD expected, the relatives want to kill it and carve up the inheritance( money. VMS R.I.P (and not the protocol).     HM   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:59:28 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)n: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <cvSLIFYRTFb0@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  V In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:  A > I'll be plain.  There is no incentive for Compaq to port VMS tonF > ANYTHING.  Wake up and smell the JAVA.  A little question to all theJ > Pollyannas in this newsgroup: How much do you think it will cost to move > VMS to another platform?  < You have no realization of the revenue Compaq gets from VMS.  F You have no realization of the revenue PC sales by _all_ manufacturers _doesn't_ produce.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:30:46 GMTo. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated: Message-ID: <qtSZ6.6051$P5.2432774@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  D Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:cvSLIFYRTFb0@eisner.encompasserve.org...M; > In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn MootooS <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: >iC > > I'll be plain.  There is no incentive for Compaq to port VMS toaH > > ANYTHING.  Wake up and smell the JAVA.  A little question to all theL > > Pollyannas in this newsgroup: How much do you think it will cost to move > > VMS to another platform? >.> > You have no realization of the revenue Compaq gets from VMS.  H What's important is not how much it costs to do the port.  It's how manyL customers will wait 18 months or 2 years so that they can port their apps toJ yet another platform.  Now compare that revenue stream against how much itL costs to do the port.  Don't want to?  Don't worry -- the beancounters will.F They're good at that; just ask DNPG, or Polycenter engineers, the FAB6I employees, or the Alpha NT engineers, or the Alpha engineers, or the fine2
 folks at API.9  < Eh, they're just people, they don't count.  Rock on, IA64...  H > You have no realization of the revenue PC sales by _all_ manufacturers > _doesn't_ produce.  E So, the multiple billions of dollars of low-margin, "me-too", revenue I outweighed the billion or so of high margin, differentiated, Alpha sales?tL Yeah, that's it -- cut off the distinctive high margin product line.  What'sD a billion dollars between friends, after all, if it can make Barrett happier?  L Killing Alpha takes no guts and no marketing initiative, both qualities thatG Compaq management LACK.  Compaq will go down in history as the PC clonetA manufacturer that was handed a golden opportunity and botched it.    Aaronh --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:18:22 -0400y( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <3B37FEFD.F2AD5B64@bigfoot.com>n  F Okay, let's see your numbers and your source.  As a side note, care to buy some flood insurance?t   HM   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > C > > I'll be plain.  There is no incentive for Compaq to port VMS to H > > ANYTHING.  Wake up and smell the JAVA.  A little question to all theL > > Pollyannas in this newsgroup: How much do you think it will cost to move > > VMS to another platform? > > > You have no realization of the revenue Compaq gets from VMS. > H > You have no realization of the revenue PC sales by _all_ manufacturers > _doesn't_ produce.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:04:57 -0400:+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e: Subject: RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4A1945B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Aaron,  K >>> It's how many customers will wait 18 months or 2 years so that they canr port their apps to yet another platform.>>>  " re: porting to another platform ..  J I am not saying that the entire picture is rosy (it still has much left to= be filled in), but is not every vendor in the same position ?h   - Win32 --> Win64n - IBM --> Power4 - IBM --> IA64. - IBM MVS --> new 64bit mainframe architecture - Sparc II --> Sparc III - HP PA --> IA64I - Alpha --> IA64-2 (or whatever the enhanced IA64 + Alpha architecture ist called)S  G Given that, in most cases, various levels of emulation capabilities are K stopgaps until the code can be recompiled into a native image, do Customerss9 have much of a choice with whatever platform they choose?t  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanth Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesl Voice: 613-592-4660- Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----3 From: Alphaman [mailto:alphaman64@nixspam-home.com]D Sent: June 25, 2001 10:31 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated    D Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:cvSLIFYRTFb0@eisner.encompasserve.org...*; > In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo  <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: >dC > > I'll be plain.  There is no incentive for Compaq to port VMS to[H > > ANYTHING.  Wake up and smell the JAVA.  A little question to all theL > > Pollyannas in this newsgroup: How much do you think it will cost to move > > VMS to another platform? >m> > You have no realization of the revenue Compaq gets from VMS.  H What's important is not how much it costs to do the port.  It's how manyL customers will wait 18 months or 2 years so that they can port their apps toJ yet another platform.  Now compare that revenue stream against how much itL costs to do the port.  Don't want to?  Don't worry -- the beancounters will.F They're good at that; just ask DNPG, or Polycenter engineers, the FAB6I employees, or the Alpha NT engineers, or the Alpha engineers, or the fined
 folks at API.*  < Eh, they're just people, they don't count.  Rock on, IA64...  H > You have no realization of the revenue PC sales by _all_ manufacturers > _doesn't_ produce.  E So, the multiple billions of dollars of low-margin, "me-too", revenue*I outweighed the billion or so of high margin, differentiated, Alpha sales?*L Yeah, that's it -- cut off the distinctive high margin product line.  What'sD a billion dollars between friends, after all, if it can make Barrett happier?  L Killing Alpha takes no guts and no marketing initiative, both qualities thatG Compaq management LACK.  Compaq will go down in history as the PC clone.A manufacturer that was handed a golden opportunity and botched it.l   Aarono --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/H "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:28:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>4: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <3B380F73.B180EF1@videotron.ca>C   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > - Win32 --> Win64  > - IBM --> Power4 > - IBM --> IA640 > - IBM MVS --> new 64bit mainframe architecture > - Sparc II --> Sparc III > - HP PA --> IA64K > - Alpha --> IA64-2 (or whatever the enhanced IA64 + Alpha architecture isC	 > called)N  I The difference is that Compaq has announced End of life for Alpha that is0N essentially immediate (since the engineers are being transfered to Intel rightM away) but it will take 4 years to get the migration done. The others are in a*4 position where they can continue to provide/improve   N Has Intel announced end of life for the 8086 (IA32) ? Have they completely cut) the staffing for that line of products ? *  M Now, HP may have announced end of life for their chip, but consider that theyiL won't have to wait 4 years before they can offer IA64 solutions because IA64N was designed to cater to HP's needs so I would expect HP to be able to provideA IA64 software solutions as soon as IA64 becomes widely available.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:37:58 -04005+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>t: Subject: RE: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggeratedR Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4A1945C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,l  J >>> The difference is that Compaq has announced End of life for Alpha thatK is essentially immediate (since the engineers are being transfered to Intelt right away)>>>  - Not all Engineers were transferred to Intel. a  K Quote from the press release "A portion of these engineers will remain withiL Compaq to complete a next-generation Alpha microprocessor development effortC currently underway but will transfer to Intel as their projects are*
 completed"  J This is the team doing the EV68+ and EV7 and Marvel server line. Customers; can plan on EV7 based servers being extremely competitive. e   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicesy Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: June 26, 2001 12:29 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com8: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > - Win32 --> Win64  > - IBM --> Power4 > - IBM --> IA640 > - IBM MVS --> new 64bit mainframe architecture > - Sparc II --> Sparc III > - HP PA --> IA64K > - Alpha --> IA64-2 (or whatever the enhanced IA64 + Alpha architecture is 	 > called)   I The difference is that Compaq has announced End of life for Alpha that isnH essentially immediate (since the engineers are being transfered to Intel rightnK away) but it will take 4 years to get the migration done. The others are in  a'4 position where they can continue to provide/improve   J Has Intel announced end of life for the 8086 (IA32) ? Have they completely cut-) the staffing for that line of products ? l  H Now, HP may have announced end of life for their chip, but consider that theyL won't have to wait 4 years before they can offer IA64 solutions because IA64F was designed to cater to HP's needs so I would expect HP to be able to provideSA IA64 software solutions as soon as IA64 becomes widely available.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:51:12 -0400.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>S: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated, Message-ID: <3B3814B5.31033974@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:M > Quote from the press release "A portion of these engineers will remain withdN > Compaq to complete a next-generation Alpha microprocessor development effortE > currently underway but will transfer to Intel as their projects are  > completed"  K The way I read this is: " a portion of employee will be transfered a littlew5 later, after they have finished writing some reports.t  7 Isn't the EV7 project essentially almost complete now ?f   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 01:59:10 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <JqD0ykmmRuKn@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3B380F73.B180EF1@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   K > The difference is that Compaq has announced End of life for Alpha that is J > essentially immediate (since the engineers are being transfered to IntelA > right away) but it will take 4 years to get the migration done.u  L Please, Andrew, you are going out of your way not to read the announcements.H The engineers being offered employment at Intel right away are those notD involved in EV7.  Those involved in EV7 will continue with Compaq toG develop that chip, which should outperform IA64 until the time when EV8t would have been required.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:27:03 -0400 4 From: "Mark Buda" <buda@tabasco.zko.dec.no.spam.com>1 Subject: Re: The end of Computer Associates ?????l, Message-ID: <9h8ve9$4oh7$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:bunC0oYZ51FG@eisner.encompasserve.org...n  + > Failed for me earlier.  Fails for me now.o   Bet is was in MIME  :-)e    - mark'   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:42:04 GMTh From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..comeR Subject: The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64 posting)8 Message-ID: <3qofjtkb9t56ainan1l6l2stj6vtacmqjs@4ax.com>  * the potential good that could come out of ) CPQ porting VMS to IA64,  I think, rests /+ heavily, on whether they CPQ builds mostly v* IA64 boxes crippled to run NT/W2K only ...  * (i'd wager BillyG has a big stake in this,(  or will make it so, with his pricing..)  / I highly suspect CPQ will build crippled boxes.t  % but assuming CPQ builds all/most IA64 * boxes capable of running something besides, Billy rot. (or allows DELL/IBM/SUN to build  such uncrippled boxes)    ) con:  Yet another platform for VMS ISV's t          acquire/port/build.  & pro:   Many non-VMS ISV's will likely &          get themselves an IPF system.%          Maybe even one they can bootn          to VMS, as-needed.(     $ con:  IA64 currently  is Not Cheap, +          ie, it's  not "commodity" hardware,   pro:   could become Cheap. n/          (A laptop qual'ed to run VMS would be a           a nice thing.)      pro:   VMS could potentialy run (          linux and/or NT IA64 binaries. 1          the actual probability, i think, is Nil,c,          but nevertheless at least possible.    con:  (well, who would want to?            unless forced to ..)  2 the main concern I had, w/ IA64 being an immature 0 vliw/epic architecture,  is how predictable the / performance will be, under different workloads,i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:46:57 -04002- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f! Subject: The Secret Future of VMS , Message-ID: <3B37A338.A637F89F@videotron.ca>  E Mt Matco has alluded that he knows a lot more though NDAs and that wea shouldn't worry.  M For christs's sake COMPAQ, you've just announced the death of a platform, andhL you expect us to have faith on some secret plans you won't reveal publicly ?  K If Compaq has some grandiose plans for VMS, it better reveal them PUBLICLY oJ *THIS WEEK*. Keeping them under NDA will fail to reach the people who will9 otherwise assume that VMS is no longer a viable platform.   D Compaq failed to make a go at Alpha, but promised support for alpha.? Compaq failed to make a go at VMS but promised support for VMS.n  N Comapq now breaks its promise for Alpha and we're expected to beleive Compaq'sK "don't worry be happy, we'll port VMS to IA64 and all will be well" ???????s    L It is a given that Compaq will transfer Tru64 technologies (which are reallyM VMS technologies) to Linux and market its own Linux loaded with tons of addedhN goodies. And once Linux has got enough to run True64 applications, we all knowH what will happen to Tru64. Compaq userd the word "Affinity" so it shouldK expect customer to interpret the meaning the word "affinity" that way. That)M move in itself may not be bad from a marketing /strategic move, but it is theiS fact that Compaq isn't saying it outright and is trying to hide stuff which id bad.   J Why should anyone trust Compaq if the good stuff remains under NDA ? Do we" have any reasons to trust Compaq ?  N If Compaq wants our trust, they better released those NDAs read soon otherwise a lot will be jumping ship.d   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 01:21:43 GMT' From: prosullivan@aol.com (PROSULLIVAN)e% Subject: Re: The Secret Future of VMSd: Message-ID: <20010625212143.17018.00001057@ng-fp1.aol.com>   New Compaq marketing line:   'emigration technology'V  K Remember: every time DEC said 'the future of VMS is safe' we looked up like , rabbits caught in the headlights and agreed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:46:30 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>-# Subject: Untel outside zone and VMS5, Message-ID: <3B37DB66.D872A0B5@infopuls.com>  @ I see a problem for my strategy (as mentioned: no Untel products? and VMS) after the dead of Alpha. Is there a way out? AMD is noo= solution because their instruction sets are Untel compatible.o   Will VMS available on PowerPC?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:39:07 +0100I  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> Subject: Re: Vax Service Centreo+ Message-ID: <VA.000003ea.0d5ffdd8@sture.ch>h  F In article <009FE0F8.00AECC1B.15@leva.leeds.ac.uk>, Ted Allwood wrote:. > From: Ted Allwood <support@leva.leeds.ac.uk> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmse > Subject: Vax Service Centref' > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:08:26 +0100- > F > Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes: >  lN > > Here in the UK, asking to speak to Field Service, instead of whatever theyQ > > are called these days, is a good way to get a puzzled response from the othere > > end of the telephone.r > > P > > (This is not a CPQ thing, I encountered it while DEC was still DEC, at leastO > > at my local office, Leeds, when that was a local office. I don't know abouti > > elsewhere in the UK.)  > H > It seems that perhaps there is still a Service Centre in Leeds, albeitA > in premises on Kirkstall Road that are somewhat down-market 8-)gB > Details at www.mech-eng.leeds.ac.uk/support/images/misc/vax2.jpg >  Nice one ;-) ___a
 Paul Sture Switzerlandr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:23:38 -0400o> From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>0 Subject: RE: VMS 7.3/Alpha boot bugcheck problemM Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D01602160@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>d   > -----Original Message-----E > From: Jean-Francois Marchal [mailto:jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr],& > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:40 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come2 > Subject: Re: VMS 7.3/Alpha boot bugcheck problem >=20 >=205 > woulnt't it be an allocation class =3D 0 question ?. > Jean-Fran=E7ois Marchalo > X9000 - LYON (FR)a >=20  D The Compaq OpenVMS folks thought of that, and dialed in to take a=20E look at my system to confirm for themselves.  The allocation class=20 E on the system of question is 1, so I do not believe this to be the=20t problem.   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadwaya Albany, NY  12204? USAi 518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.comi  * "I post personal opinion only, and all the* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my* views in no way represent my employer(s)."   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 15:45:22 -0700% From: s.joseph@lph.org (Shawn Joseph) ! Subject: VMS License descriptionss= Message-ID: <c7ea9784.0106251445.6b8a85ba@posting.google.com>4  A I have looked at the Compaq website and in the license management2C utility and I still haven't figured out what some of these licensesd@ are.  I have some strange descriptions like: ABS-NT-CLIENT-USER,& ABS-OMT, DCPS-OPEN,DCPS-PLUS,DVNETEND,C NTDS-DISK,PWLMXXXCA07.02,PWXXWINAT07.02,DECEVENT (Which is about todE expire).  I am new to OpenVMS and I'm having a hard time interpretingAD what all these licenses are for.  Is there a resource somewhere thatD will translate the short names above into a more meaningful name and full description?k  A I have an Alpha 1200 I am using for training and all the trainingsD licenses expired.  We got new licenses for OpenVMS-Alpha and OpenVMSC Alpha ADL but that isn't enough it seems.  I can't connect remotelyCF and I assume that is because the TCPIP (UCX)license has expired.  DoesA anyone know the minimum licenses that need to be installed for an-- alpha server with Decwindows and TCPIP v 5.0?5  F I look forward to your response as the licensing is holding us up over here.   
 Respectfully,t Shawn Joseph   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:14:37 -0400c' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>u% Subject: Re: VMS License descriptionss< Message-ID: <howard-2FEFC8.19143725062001@enews.newsguy.com>  = In article <c7ea9784.0106251445.6b8a85ba@posting.google.com>,e'  s.joseph@lph.org (Shawn Joseph) wrote:h  C > I have looked at the Compaq website and in the license managementhE > utility and I still haven't figured out what some of these licenses . > are.  I have some strange descriptions like:  & ABS-NT-CLIENT-USER, ABS-OMT - see next  N DCPS-OPEN,DCPS-PLUS - I think I knew what these were at one time.  Now I just 	 load 'em.s  1 DVNETEND - DECnet end-node license (phase 4 or 5)   D NTDS-DISK - got me.  I got them too, but I don't know what they are.  8 PWLMXXXCA07.02,PWXXWINAT07.02 - pieces of Pathworks 7.02  L DECEVENT - error analysis utility, can be updated by your hardware contract  field service person --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:22:10 +020032 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)% Subject: Re: VMS License descriptionsd; Message-ID: <3b37ffe2.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>t  ( Howard S Shubs (howard@shubs.net) wrote:( > s.joseph@lph.org (Shawn Joseph) wrote: >BE > > I have looked at the Compaq website and in the license management G > > utility and I still haven't figured out what some of these licensesT0 > > are.  I have some strange descriptions like: > ( > ABS-NT-CLIENT-USER, ABS-OMT - see next  L Archive and Backup System. Beats me what "OMT" stands for - Client & Server?  C > DCPS-OPEN,DCPS-PLUS - I think I knew what these were at one time.t > Now I just load 'em.  F DEC Print Supervisor, Base & Extendend. Support for attaching a lot of1 DEC & third-party printers (Postscript or other).e  3 > DVNETEND - DECnet end-node license (phase 4 or 5)a >tF > NTDS-DISK - got me.  I got them too, but I don't know what they are.  F NT Disk Services. Serve a VMS container file as a network disk to some Windows machine.  : > PWLMXXXCA07.02,PWXXWINAT07.02 - pieces of Pathworks 7.02 >tN > DECEVENT - error analysis utility, can be updated by your hardware contract  > field service person  J Apart from DECevent, these form the "Enterprise Integration Package" (EIP) which replaced the NAS license.    cu,a   Martin -- nD                     | Martin Vorlaender    |    VMS & WNT programmer-   Smert' Spamionem  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.decD                     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/4                     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:47:17 -0400t' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> % Subject: Re: VMS License descriptionsP< Message-ID: <howard-DD4F13.00471726062001@enews.newsguy.com>  ; In article <3b37ffe2.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,m4  martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) wrote:  E > > DCPS-OPEN,DCPS-PLUS - I think I knew what these were at one time.o > > Now I just load 'em. > H > DEC Print Supervisor, Base & Extendend. Support for attaching a lot of3 > DEC & third-party printers (Postscript or other)..  K I -knew- I'd seen this back in the day, when we used to -use- that product.3    L > Apart from DECevent, these form the "Enterprise Integration Package" (EIP)! > which replaced the NAS license.    Figures. --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:23:58 -0400l* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> Subject: VMS on IA64. Message-ID: <3B3781BE.28390.93B5AC8@localhost>  G >   Based on a quick check of one of the larger of the source librariesyG >   of OpenVMS Alpha operating system code around, Macro32 leads C and   >   Bliss32 modules. /  E Can we assume that moving to IA64 will be a smaller jump than moving eB from VAX to Alpha?  Are there any plans to change features in VMS?  C It also appears that IA64 will have a Macro32 compiler.  One of my eC client's products depends on it -- good thing VMS itself does, too.e  C Will DECmigrate be resurrected to support VAX code on IA64?  Or is  1 the tradition of supporting VAX forever now gone?   E And how about migrating Alpha code to IA64?  Will there be something aF like DECmigrate, or must we recompile from sources?  Will Compaq C on 7 IA64 look identical to Compaq C on Alpha?  (I hope so.)y  E And will the IA64 Compaq C compiler still have a VAX C mode?  I have 1 gobs of VAX C code...      --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671y1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147d= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comd   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:46:05 +0100w  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)+ Message-ID: <VA.000003e8.0d2f6db6@sture.ch>t  J In article <OFCB3CFC95.79046B7E-ON80256A76.005A3DF2@qedi.quintiles.com>,   wrote:" > From: steven.reece@quintiles.com > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms & > Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)' > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:30:33 +0100r >  >  > E > I would imagine that, excluding Services and Products, Compaq got :  >  > A huge property portfolio;K > Financial resources of Digital (including their various leasing companiess) > that were, I believe, in-house funded);2	 > People; , > What would otherwise be known as Goodwill;/ > Access to the Digital databases of customers;K > Installed base of customers;! > Usergroup (DECUS/Encompass/CUO)  >4   Also a cash pile IIRC.  L > At least some of the property portfolio is still there, as are some of the	 > people.4  K The comments about one building vs another in one of the Inquirer articles iI this weekend had me intrigued. I'm not familiar with the significance of t. either building, but still remain intrigued... >  > William Bochnik asked: > >>> ? > Tim, or anyone else out there, care to list what Compaq "got" B > when they bough Digital, and out of those products/services list$ > what's left?  I bet it's not much. >  > :-(  sad state of affairsu > <<<  >f   ___r
 Paul Sture Switzerlandl   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:25:10 GMTh- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>y$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251624360.16346-100000@world.std.com>  5 On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:o   >  > E > I would imagine that, excluding Services and Products, Compaq got :1 >  > A huge property portfolio;K > Financial resources of Digital (including their various leasing companiesy) > that were, I believe, in-house funded);4	 > People;c, > What would otherwise be known as Goodwill;/ > Access to the Digital databases of customers;e > Installed base of customers;! > Usergroup (DECUS/Encompass/CUO)s >    And close to $4B in cash.l   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 17:24:41 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)l$ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical)3 Message-ID: <wxm91iUlU27k@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  _ In article <9h86vi$68m$1@news.panix.com>, Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid> writes:2  E > The difference now is that Apha to IA64 is a proven (but see above)lD > 64bit to an unproven 64bit. But the new 64bitter is not an inhouseJ > design, and from the sound of the announcements it is a bet the divisionH > descision. Plus, it will likely be easier to move from one 64bitter toH > another 64bitter than it was to do the 32bit to 64bit port, especially= > now that the first 64bit port has proven to be successfull.e  C But Alpha was specially designed with 32-bit compatibility in mind,oB and that is heavily used in VMS.  Is that true for IA-64 as well ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:59:40 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> $ Subject: Re: VMS on IA64 (technical), Message-ID: <3B37C25C.2269C1D8@infopuls.com>  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:o > E > I would imagine that, excluding Services and Products, Compaq got :  >  > A huge property portfolio;K > Financial resources of Digital (including their various leasing companiesr) > that were, I believe, in-house funded);7	 > People;., > What would otherwise be known as Goodwill;/ > Access to the Digital databases of customers;Y > Installed base of customers;! > Usergroup (DECUS/Encompass/CUO)l > L > At least some of the property portfolio is still there, as are some of the	 > people.a > Steve. >  > William Bochnik asked: > >>>n? > Tim, or anyone else out there, care to list what Compaq "got"uB > when they bough Digital, and out of those products/services list$ > what's left?  I bet it's not much. >  > :-(  sad state of affairso > <<<   
 Buildings.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:27:34 GMTA& From: jhodge@biglizard.net (Joe Hodge) Subject: VMS on UltraSparc?i2 Message-ID: <3b379b86.17644962@news.supernews.com>  F I have heard, although not from a reputable source, that a VMS port toF UltraSparc is a possibility as Compaq's exit strategy for both VMS andB Tru64 customers -- customers who aren't going to want to move to aF first generation architecture.  Sun will happily cooperate in anything7 that screws Intel and/or MS and Compaq has never been a ? microelectronic or software powerhouse.  Should I give this anyb	 credence?    JoeM   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:02:24 GMTi4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie) Subject: Re: VMS on UltraSparc?') Message-ID: <QxOZ6.4730$%L5.60203@insync>t  ' Joe Hodge (jhodge@biglizard.net) wrote: H : I have heard, although not from a reputable source, that a VMS port toH : UltraSparc is a possibility as Compaq's exit strategy for both VMS andD : Tru64 customers -- customers who aren't going to want to move to aH : first generation architecture.  Sun will happily cooperate in anything9 : that screws Intel and/or MS and Compaq has never been awA : microelectronic or software powerhouse.  Should I give this any0 : credence?0 : B Not unless the VMS and Tru64 ports were to use some technique like7 a Hardware Extraction Layer (HAL), like Windows NT has.n  % --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edus/                  leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.neto;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalidd   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:04:57 GMTs- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>o Subject: Re: VMS on UltraSparc?tD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251902430.16249-100000@world.std.com>  % On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Joe Hodge wrote:s  H > I have heard, although not from a reputable source, that a VMS port toH > UltraSparc is a possibility as Compaq's exit strategy for both VMS andD > Tru64 customers -- customers who aren't going to want to move to aH > first generation architecture.  Sun will happily cooperate in anything9 > that screws Intel and/or MS and Compaq has never been a A > microelectronic or software powerhouse.  Should I give this anyr > credence?  >  > Joes >   J I'd give more credence to the rumour if the alleged exit strategy involvedD IBM, who is no slouch when it comes to microelectronics or software.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:39:50 -0700s! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>w Subject: RE: VMS on UltraSparc?o9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEIOCNAA.tom@kednos.com>e   > -----Original Message-----I > From: Mr Usenet Himself [mailto:news@world.std.com]On Behalf Of Terry Ch	 > Shannony% > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:05 PMi > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy! > Subject: Re: VMS on UltraSparc?m >  >t >u >r' > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Joe Hodge wrote:  >nJ > > I have heard, although not from a reputable source, that a VMS port toJ > > UltraSparc is a possibility as Compaq's exit strategy for both VMS andF > > Tru64 customers -- customers who aren't going to want to move to aJ > > first generation architecture.  Sun will happily cooperate in anything; > > that screws Intel and/or MS and Compaq has never been aiC > > microelectronic or software powerhouse.  Should I give this anye
 > > credence?- > >- > > Joe- > >  >aL > I'd give more credence to the rumour if the alleged exit strategy involvedF > IBM, who is no slouch when it comes to microelectronics or software. >f >lK They announced a 216 HHz transistor today, which they claim will go to 300!n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:14:46 GMTb$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>  Subject: Wailing and moaning....) Message-ID: <3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com>-  D Regarding the messages in comp.os.vms after Compaq's announcement to port VMS to IA64:R  H Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and the% awful new VAX systems were announced?.A Did everyone piss and moan and proclaim that the sky was falling?.  - No, VMS is not going to dry up and blow away.xC No, this is not the week you should switch jobs and give up on VMS.oE If anything, there's going to be more work in the future as companies  migrate from AlphaH to VMS.  Get a few of those migrations under your belt and you'll have a pretty handsome resume.y  F If more and more of you "veterans" quit and run away, that just leaves* more job opportunities for the rest of us.  F Hell, I might just hang out my shingle a few years from now and travel1 around the country helping companies migrate from  Alpha (or VAX) to VMS-on-Intel.t  C The best Alpha chip engineers will be joining forces with the Intel 1 Itanium chip designers to come up with a kick-assnD system. It's going to be better than anything we have today.  Why is this a bad thing?e  F We'll have Intel-based servers that will crush today's top-of-the-line
 AlphaServers.2  E There will *still* be a demand in the job market for VMS admins.  Youa& guys are not employed because you knowF a particular OS; it's because of the way you manage your systems.  You4 have very reliable backup schemes in place. You knowF how to apply OS upgrades off-hours without paralyzing the company. You@ know how to design a system that can run 24x7, survive a naturalD disaster and can pretty much manage itself through the use of crafty scripts.  E Take a look at your "network admins" or your "NT admins".  The peoplei> who apply service packs in the middle of the day or reboot theH server in the middle of the day without a second thought.  Wouldn't your4 boss love to have "your way of doing things" appliedB to the Intel-based servers so those numbnuts would learn from you?  D This is only beginning of a very glorious age.  I can't wait to lookH back five years from now when I get iVMS 9.0 running on a multiprocessor2 Itanium system with a terabyte of memory on board.  
 -Scott :^)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:13:01 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>e$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....< Message-ID: <howard-B428E2.00130126062001@enews.newsguy.com>  I In article <3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> g wrote:  J > Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and the' > awful new VAX systems were announced?   * News, as such, didn't exist yet back then.    G > There will *still* be a demand in the job market for VMS admins.  YouL( > guys are not employed because you knowH > a particular OS; it's because of the way you manage your systems.  You6 > have very reliable backup schemes in place. You knowH > how to apply OS upgrades off-hours without paralyzing the company. YouB > know how to design a system that can run 24x7, survive a naturalF > disaster and can pretty much manage itself through the use of crafty
 > scripts.  M But that's only useful with an OS that has a future.  VMS doesn't have one.  aM I've been trying to get away from it for years, taking on jobs with companys l! which are more and more moribund.e  M All companies I've seen w/in the last 5 or so years are moving away from VMS dN and toward some flavor of UNIX.  Don't have to like UNIX, but the earlier you L get into it, the more experience you'll have than the people who stick with  VMS until the bitter end.h    G > Take a look at your "network admins" or your "NT admins".  The people @ > who apply service packs in the middle of the day or reboot theJ > server in the middle of the day without a second thought.  Wouldn't your6 > boss love to have "your way of doing things" appliedD > to the Intel-based servers so those numbnuts would learn from you?  % You haven't read much BOFH, have you?e    F > This is only beginning of a very glorious age.  I can't wait to lookJ > back five years from now when I get iVMS 9.0 running on a multiprocessor4 > Itanium system with a terabyte of memory on board.  9 I hope you're right, but I'm not betting my career on it.s -- V Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:47:21 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?* Message-ID: <3b378739$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  e In article <eZHZ6.83$rc5.3791@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:-E >In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:a@ >:"Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family6 >:of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." >:; >:http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmll >:; >:As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?  >s= >  "The new Compaq Itanium servers will support ... OpenVMS."e > E >  OpenVMS is porting to IA64.  (And now off to reword my FAQ VMS11.)   I 'Porting' and 'Migration' are the last words former DEC and VMS customersn want to hear and read !!  > >  At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well...  4 They used INTEL as a synonym to cheap/mass hardware.L But they would have taken Alpha in favor if Alpha would have been cheap/mass	 either...    -- h< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888e< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:27:03 GMT - From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>a2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251524550.16346-100000@world.std.com>  & On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, B.Eckstein wrote:  @ > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family6 > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > ; > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmls > ; > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?o >   I Absolutely not. The port will be done with 18 months. The Tru64 port will I be quicker because of the Bravo initiative. And the Himalaya folks revertd) to their original MIPS to IA-64 upgrade. 4   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:24:29 -0400a, From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?( Message-ID: <3B378FED.28178DDB@osfn.org>  H "... reinforce our message to you that Compaq is unequivocally committed to Alpha for the long term."  9 http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/news/commit_letter.html    It appears to be date 2-12-1999d   -mikeu   Hoff Hoffman wrote:o > F > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:A > :"Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family 7 > :of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."o > :u< > :http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html > :,< > :As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? > > >   "The new Compaq Itanium servers will support ... OpenVMS." > F >   OpenVMS is porting to IA64.  (And now off to reword my FAQ VMS11.) > D >   Please visit the OpenVMS website: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/E >   (as I expect more links will be going up there), and particularly6" >   visit the following web pages: > < >     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/overview.html; >     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms.htmlr > ? >   At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well...e > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:46:00 GMTC- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>-2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251541130.16346-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, it was written:  I > I suspect it means that CPQ is getting out of the HW design/fabrication-F > business.  Intel has been looking for a partner to help break the M$J > monopoly on their processors, and VMS may be just what Intel needs to doI > this.  Don't forget that the Itanium will probably be around for only aqH > couple of years - it's replacement is close to pre-fab - and that it'sJ > successor may have the additional instructions needed to make a VMS port > feasible.   @ Well, they for sure are getting out of the microprocessor design? business. The timing of the transition (2004) and the immediatecC acquisition of the EV8 (and advanced development) teams to Intel is G consistent with the aforementioned scenario. The OpenVMS port should berC done well before the advent of the fiest "Alpha-Inside" IA-64 chip.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:42:56 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?' Message-ID: <3B379440.6233272E@fsi.net>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > F > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:B > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >e= > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmlo > >i= > > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?  > + > Not if one believes the press release at:a > B >         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html > O > "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelwL >  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family."  9 Well, better ten(10) years too late than never, I s'pose.n  E Even *THAT* won't revive the OpenVMS market, if they don't dump theirt% Alpha savings into OpenVMS marketing.a   -- 1 David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:44:30 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>D2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?' Message-ID: <3B37949E.FF33DA78@fsi.net>d   Hoff Hoffman wrote:@ > F > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:A > :"Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family47 > :of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."  > :n< > :http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html > :k< > :As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? > > >   "The new Compaq Itanium servers will support ... OpenVMS." > F >   OpenVMS is porting to IA64.  (And now off to reword my FAQ VMS11.) > D >   Please visit the OpenVMS website: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/E >   (as I expect more links will be going up there), and particularly-" >   visit the following web pages: > < >     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/overview.html; >     http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms.htmlp > ? >   At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well...   0 I *SAID* it would *HAVE* *TO* happen eventually.  & Too bad it's ten(10) years too late...   -- e David J. Dachtera( dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:24:14 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)r2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?3 Message-ID: <iFuM$lUYrsTh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3B379440.6233272E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:d > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> oG >> In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:aC >> > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit familyl9 >> > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."h >> >> >> > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html >> >> >> > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? >> i, >> Not if one believes the press release at: >> rC >>         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html  >>  P >> "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelM >>  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family."V > ; > Well, better ten(10) years too late than never, I s'pose.   F I guess you are ahead of me, because I have not had production-quality) Itanium processors for the past 10 years.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:01:27 -0500r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?' Message-ID: <3B37A6A7.4B5F4388@fsi.net>t   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3B379440.6233272E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:r > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>I > >> In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes: E > >> > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family ; > >> > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."  > >> >@ > >> > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html > >> >@ > >> > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? > >>. > >> Not if one believes the press release at: > >>E > >>         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.htmln > >>R > >> "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelO > >>  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family."o > >h= > > Well, better ten(10) years too late than never, I s'pose.n > H > I guess you are ahead of me, because I have not had production-quality+ > Itanium processors for the past 10 years.   H We've had production(?) quality 386 and later chips since 1991. The time? to port was then. Now is too late - the market OpenVMS is dead.r -- e David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 17:20:56 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)S2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?3 Message-ID: <Yv84iWEtfT6x@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3B37A6A7.4B5F4388@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:g > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> u^ >> In article <3B379440.6233272E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >> >>gJ >> >> In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:F >> >> > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family< >> >> > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." >> >> >hA >> >> > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmlo >> >> >cA >> >> > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?s >> >>a/ >> >> Not if one believes the press release at:- >> >>-F >> >>         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html >> >>@S >> >> "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelmP >> >>  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family." >> >> >> > Well, better ten(10) years too late than never, I s'pose. >>  I >> I guess you are ahead of me, because I have not had production-quality , >> Itanium processors for the past 10 years. > J > We've had production(?) quality 386 and later chips since 1991. The timeA > to port was then. Now is too late - the market OpenVMS is dead.t  E Your question mark is exactly the point.  The IA-32 installed base isG2 a hopeless quagmire of divergent hardware designs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:22:56 +0200q) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>b2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?, Message-ID: <3B37C7D0.4C8206CE@infopuls.com>   Martin Knoblauch wrote:t >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > H > > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:D > > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family: > > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > > > ? > > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmle > > > ? > > > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?* > >*- > > Not if one believes the press release at:  > > D > >         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html > >eQ > > "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop Kernel N > >  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family." > A >  but who is going to port the applications? Actually, from thatrJ > perspective Tru64 maybe the worst off. Why should one port to IA64/Tru64D > if you can have already ported Unices from HP, IBM and then Linux? > G >  NSK is probably the safest, as there maybe some stuff that is really @ > unique, provided that there will be hardware to use/expose it. > I >  VMS is somehow in the middle. What does VMS offer to applications thathH > you couldn't find in either the variety of Unices, or NSK if it has to > be really highly available.k > 5 >  In any case, application availability will decide.  >  > Martin > --D > ------------------------------------------------------------------D > Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de9 > TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309g9 > C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111@7 > http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759.  : Actually VMS isn't in a that bad position. If the apps are: AESTed or ported by the vendors which is not very unlikely= because they can easily get money which the customers safe byd> using cheaper HW (so in fact it's a money transfer from Compaq> pockets to the 3rd party SW vendors - under the condition that= IA63 HW is somewhat cheaper as announced and runs VMS withouty> artifically increased costs like built-in dongles that prevent@ VMS to be run on non Compaq HW) by only re-compiling their apps,: the remaining main portion are the DCL scripcts. A company= having a lot of them might be inclined to decide to keep this @ solution because re-writing this administration scripts might be= a hassle because the people who created them aren't often note@ available (gone) and it is a very unpleasant task to re-engineer that part of a solution.9 And the DCL scripts will work without a bit of change ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:25:33 +0200v) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>h2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?, Message-ID: <3B37C86D.9FE0228B@infopuls.com>   "Michael D. Ober" wrote: > I > I suspect it means that CPQ is getting out of the HW design/fabrication F > business.  Intel has been looking for a partner to help break the M$J > monopoly on their processors, and VMS may be just what Intel needs to doI > this.  Don't forget that the Itanium will probably be around for only a H > couple of years - it's replacement is close to pre-fab - and that it'sJ > successor may have the additional instructions needed to make a VMS port > feasible.f  > Very interesting observation that Intel has been looking for a5 partner to help break the Micro$hit monopoly on their @ processors. Are there any facts to support that view of reality?   > -- > Mike Ober. > @ > "David Jones" <JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message6 > news:9h7iaq$qrl$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...H > > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:D > > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family: > > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > > >e? > > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html. > > >l@ > > >> As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? > > >s. > > >Not if one believes the press release at: > > >t> > > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html > > >pK > > >"Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop0 > KernelF > > > operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor
 > family." > >iG > > Mostly, I believe the disclaimer in the 'notes' section at the end:n > >gM > > "These statements are not historical facts and are subject to factors and K > > uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially fromu > those 1 > > described in the forward-looking statements."d > >  > >  > >  > >v@ > > David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-69291 > > Ohio State University        |      Internet:6" > > 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |! > jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.eduA> > > Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu > > / > > Disclaimer: Dogs can't tell it's not bacon.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:26:53 +02000) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>d2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?, Message-ID: <3B37C8BD.FDC4490B@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:t > E > In article <9iIZ6.705$Ln6.91190@news.uswest.net>, "Michael D. Ober"w% > <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam> wrote:y > K > > I suspect it means that CPQ is getting out of the HW design/fabrication.H > > business.  Intel has been looking for a partner to help break the M$L > > monopoly on their processors, and VMS may be just what Intel needs to doK > > this.  Don't forget that the Itanium will probably be around for only aiJ > > couple of years - it's replacement is close to pre-fab - and that it'sL > > successor may have the additional instructions needed to make a VMS port
 > > feasible.l > L > If the Itanium' successor is to support VMS in a nice way, it will have toK > be significantly delayed.  I can't see Intel doing that, since Itanium isoJ > something of a dog and the next chip is the promised dragon-slayer.  ButJ > we are talking about significant design changes, I think.  It's too late > in the process.  > 8 > So it will have to wait for the successor's successor. >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.coms  ? Itanic will never include that kind of support - this is stated  nowhere.= The McKinley successor wil include this in 2004. IA63 is morem than Itanic.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:33:40 +02000) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?+ Message-ID: <3B37CA54.DEE6A9C@infopuls.com>r   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: > g > In article <eZHZ6.83$rc5.3791@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:tG > >In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:tB > >:"Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > >:of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >:= > >:http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html- > >:= > >:As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?- > > ? > >  "The new Compaq Itanium servers will support ... OpenVMS.". > >qG > >  OpenVMS is porting to IA64.  (And now off to reword my FAQ VMS11.)- > K > 'Porting' and 'Migration' are the last words former DEC and VMS customersz > want to hear and read !! > @ > >  At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well... > 6 > They used INTEL as a synonym to cheap/mass hardware.N > But they would have taken Alpha in favor if Alpha would have been cheap/mass > either...o >  > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888t> > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"  > If EPIC is the wrong way as it seems still today it would be a6 better idea to add IA31 compatiblity to the next Alpha= generation after EV8. This would solve the dead end IA63 EPICt> problem and offer exactly the same migration path: all IA31 SW7 would run unchanged but slower than newly compiled one.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:36:43 +0200e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?, Message-ID: <3B37CB0B.28A31FEC@infopuls.com>   Terry C Shannon wrote: > ( > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, B.Eckstein wrote: > B > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >p= > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmlt > > = > > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?> > >E > K > Absolutely not. The port will be done with 18 months. The Tru64 port willeK > be quicker because of the Bravo initiative. And the Himalaya folks reverte* > to their original MIPS to IA-64 upgrade.  @ This NSK/Himalaya zick-zack course is a slight proof that nobody@ at Compaq thought about that "solution" earlier. That big change= without much planing ahead doesn't seem to be a good starting2 point.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:40:04 -0400d  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?6 Message-ID: <1010625193126.38769B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  , On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Robert Deininger wrote:  E > In article <9iIZ6.705$Ln6.91190@news.uswest.net>, "Michael D. Ober"e% > <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam> wrote:  > K > > I suspect it means that CPQ is getting out of the HW design/fabricationnH > > business.  Intel has been looking for a partner to help break the M$L > > monopoly on their processors, and VMS may be just what Intel needs to doK > > this.  Don't forget that the Itanium will probably be around for only acJ > > couple of years - it's replacement is close to pre-fab - and that it'sL > > successor may have the additional instructions needed to make a VMS port
 > > feasible.d > L > If the Itanium' successor is to support VMS in a nice way, it will have toK > be significantly delayed.  I can't see Intel doing that, since Itanium is J > something of a dog and the next chip is the promised dragon-slayer.  ButJ > we are talking about significant design changes, I think.  It's too late > in the process.p > 8 > So it will have to wait for the successor's successor.  B Yes, I thought that was clear from the announcement that they wereB not talking about Itanium or its successor (McKinley, if I have myB code names correct), but a follow-on to McKinley as the target forA the ports.  I think I heard recently that the McKinley is alreadyeA available in small quantities to PC manufacturers or will be very C soon (for system design and testing, not for deliverable products),wH so it is obviously too late to incorporate anything but trivial changes.  B 3 years is a long time.  Maybe they are actually talking about the' successor's successor's successor?  ;-)n   > -- t > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com    -- e John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:45:42 -0400r  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?6 Message-ID: <1010625194333.38769C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ( On 25 Jun 2001, Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  g > In article <eZHZ6.83$rc5.3791@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:uG > >In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:-B > >:"Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > >:of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >:= > >:http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmlr > >:= > >:As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?a > >e? > >  "The new Compaq Itanium servers will support ... OpenVMS."I > >iG > >  OpenVMS is porting to IA64.  (And now off to reword my FAQ VMS11.)p > K > 'Porting' and 'Migration' are the last words former DEC and VMS customerse > want to hear and read !!  G I remember once many years ago (circa 1980?) at a DECUS hearing someonetG from DEC say "Compatible means different.  If it was the same, we would  say so."  @ > >  At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well... > 6 > They used INTEL as a synonym to cheap/mass hardware.N > But they would have taken Alpha in favor if Alpha would have been cheap/mass > either...y >  > -- e> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 > > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   -- e John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:05:48 GMT * From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?* Message-ID: <3B381879.A839700@prodigy.net>  N While folks are tied up doing the ports, does the development they'd otherwise be doing stagnate?   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > F > In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:B > > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family8 > > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004." > >n= > > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.htmlb > >4= > > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ?a > + > Not if one believes the press release at:r > B >         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html > O > "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelmL >  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:28:23 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?, Message-ID: <3B381D68.FA790C5A@videotron.ca>   cjt & trefoil wrote: > P > While folks are tied up doing the ports, does the development they'd otherwise > be doing stagnate?  N And consider the synchronisation issues. The first release of VMS on Alpha wasN behind and didn't have all the stuff that the then current version on VAX had.L It was the next version where the features were in synch, and then later on,I it was the VAX that started to lag with Alpha features not ported to VAX.o  M Since VMS is unlikely to gain new customers during this transition period, is-I there much of a point in adding new features to VMS during that time ? ByoM freezing the code, it will make it easier to have a first IA64 version of VMS?N that is equal to that of  Alpha. If the first festion on Ia64 is not up to parM with that of Alpha, customers will have to wait until the next version before ; they can seriously consider downgrading from Alpha to Ia64.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:38:57 -0700l  From: Jon <jsmyth69@hotmail.com>S Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean for COE?i2 Message-ID: <Tq83OwROgvlJUfdKAxn5eLWdPvkR@4ax.com>  " What will this change mean to COE?      . Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> wrote:   >/ >s' >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, B.Eckstein wrote:c >>A >> "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family>7 >> of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."> >>  < >> http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html >> t< >> As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? >> , >eJ >Absolutely not. The port will be done with 18 months. The Tru64 port willJ >be quicker because of the Bravo initiative. And the Himalaya folks revert* >to their original MIPS to IA-64 upgrade.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:19:10 GMTm- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> Y Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean for COE? for C D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251917250.16249-100000@world.std.com>   On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jon wrote:e  $ > What will this change mean to COE?  I Best to ask one of the COE folks in ZK0 about this, but assuming that VMS E is successfully ported to the Alpha-betized IA-64, there should be noc impact.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:00:57 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)i" Subject: RE: X emulation over a PC3 Message-ID: <1T5BQCLQPj2v@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  D I would recommend looking at Excursion, a component of Pathworks 32.  L In my personal experience it is as good as or better (depending on tests) as& any commercial X-11 emulator for a PC.  H The Pathworks 32 component set also comes with a TELNET and LAT terminal
 emulation.  9 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks32/more72info.html   L The last time I compared prices for X-11 emulation, the Pathworks 32 productH was about 1/2 the cost of it's competition.  It could even be considered  affordable for a cheap hobbyist.   -Johne wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 13:13:20 -05000 From: John Palkovic <palkovic@ukantspamthis.com>  Subject: Re: [OT] Climate change2 Message-ID: <ru2u214bf7j.fsf@shell-3.enteract.com>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  K > That's for sure.  Reactor waste is nasty, but there's so _little_ of it. e- > Coal, and coal ash, come by the train-load.e  B A nuke produces concentrated waste that one can point at, and thatE must be dealt with. A fossil-fuel plant spews its waste into the air,hF where it is dispersed, effectively utilizing the entire surface of theF planet as a waste dump. These are opposite extremes of waste disposal.   -John    -- -H "... we insist on the rule that all ballots be handled in plain sight by+ people with freshly manicured fingernails."95  -- http://www.house.gov/science/full/may22/jones.htm4   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.351 ************************